From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 1:50:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C65037B416; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 01:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C01C5BDBD; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 01:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA13114; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 01:50:28 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g2A9rpx04568; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 01:53:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Greg Lehey , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rejecting spam, accepting valid mail (was: Mail blocked) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org> <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <3C8B01B9.D7BE84DC@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 10 Mar 2002 01:53:51 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C8B01B9.D7BE84DC@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 47 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > > > defraud, tr.v., To take from or deprive of by fraud; to swindle. > > > > Or see http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=defraud > > Actually, his use of the term is correct, as it applies to > the fields being interpreted as claims of identity, as far > as U.S. wire fraud statutes are concerned. > > One of the original crackdowns on crackers, and one that is > still used today as one of the charges against them, is > wire fraud, by claiming a fradulent identity, when providing > the identity to a remote system. That's interesting, as it implies that there are hundreds of thousands of federal criminals (eg, a big % of usenet posters and hotmail/yahoo users) running free. It's worth looking into, though, I suppose. But I'm not certain that the law is using the same meaning of "fraud" as you and Greg; it has several meanings, only one of which means a simple use of false identity. The other meanings are along the lines of THE ONLY dictionary-meaning of "defraud", which has a necessary "in the cause of committing theft" component. To accuse someone of defrauding people is to accuse him of being a thief. (To accuse someone of being a fraud, COULD mean only that he's not using a real identity, though it could easily be misunderstood as calling him a thief too.) I suspect that the Feds claim of "fradulent identity" involves some round-the-barn consideration that the false identity was used in an attempt to steal in some sense. They can probably even make it strech to fit almost every case, by considering a few wasted electrons or something and some implied contract that you're offered the use of a web form in exchange for entering valid info and entering invalid info is somehow stealing the use of the form. In your last-mentioned case of "fradulent identity", it is used to obtain (what most will agree would be) stolen services and so such crackers ARE defrauding the remote system. Maybe the argument (Greg's?) would be that if he puts up a message ID filter, and I happen to slip past it (or only if I intend to or am aware of his filter, maybe?), then I'm using his electrons against his will and thus stealing from him. I supposed it'd probably win in some courts. A few more scary thoughts like this and the lawsuit stuff that shows up on Slashdot, and I'm apt to return to a life without the Internet. Do they still have libraries? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 10:16:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 163F037B405; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:16:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0441.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.186] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16k7s0-0002yo-00; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:16:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3C8BA2EF.C9C533A8@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:16:15 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Greg Lehey , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rejecting spam, accepting valid mail (was: Mail blocked) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org> <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <3C8B01B9.D7BE84DC@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > One of the original crackdowns on crackers, and one that is > > still used today as one of the charges against them, is > > wire fraud, by claiming a fradulent identity, when providing > > the identity to a remote system. > > That's interesting, as it implies that there are hundreds of thousands > of federal criminals (eg, a big % of usenet posters and hotmail/yahoo > users) running free. It's worth looking into, though, I suppose. Only if they are logging in with someone else's credentials, and thereby claiming to be them, just as you do when you log into an account over the wires, when the account isn't yours. > But I'm not certain that the law is using the same meaning of "fraud" as > you and Greg; it has several meanings, only one of which means a simple > use of false identity. The other meanings are along the lines of THE > ONLY dictionary-meaning of "defraud", which has a necessary "in the > cause of committing theft" component. To accuse someone of defrauding > people is to accuse him of being a thief. (To accuse someone of being > a fraud, COULD mean only that he's not using a real identity, though > it could easily be misunderstood as calling him a thief too.) This really depends on your contract. At the time, most of the timeshare and other contracts specified persons permitted to do the logging in. > I suspect that the Feds claim of "fradulent identity" involves some > round-the-barn consideration that the false identity was used in an > attempt to steal in some sense. They can probably even make it strech > to fit almost every case, by considering a few wasted electrons or > something and some implied contract that you're offered the use of a web > form in exchange for entering valid info and entering invalid info is > somehow stealing the use of the form. It really has to do with contractual obligations. Though these days, it's easy to argue that a form entry constitutes a digital signature, now that digital signatures are legally binding, thanks to the Clinton presidency. From a cryptographic standpoint, this shifts the burden of non-repudiation onto the individual, rather than the company. This is similar to the shift of the burden for collection of unsecured loans onto the people taking the loans, rather than on the people extending credit without security. In the U.S. credit card loans are now implicitly secured with your personal posessions (i.e. don't run up credit card bills you can't pay, or they can take your house, even if you didn't sign a contract which used the house to collateralize the debt). This also took place in the Clinton presidency. I'm not sure how happy I am about someone being able to use my digital identity in a legally binding way, with the burden of repudiation being on me, rather than the burden of non-repudiation being on the other party. It makes individuals responsible for the costs of fraud committed in their name. Given how easy it is to steal an electronic identity, it's really obnoxious to see the changes in the law that did this. > In your last-mentioned case of "fradulent identity", it is used to > obtain (what most will agree would be) stolen services and so such > crackers ARE defrauding the remote system. Actually, the "theft of services" is relatively new. In "the old days", what they were doing was more bound up in tort law, since the contract for the use of the machine established a value, and the implicit limitation of users to established identities meant that the person being defrauded was the person whose account you were using, and not the company offering the services. It's a good thing to know who you are harming when you engage in illegal behaviour; it tends to personalize it, which is a much better way of discouraging illegal acts than further legislating against them (English Bobby: "Stop! Or I shall yell ``Stop!'' again!"). > Maybe the argument (Greg's?) would be that if he puts up a message > ID filter, and I happen to slip past it (or only if I intend to or > am aware of his filter, maybe?), then I'm using his electrons > against his will and thus stealing from him. I supposed it'd > probably win in some courts. I think you are missing the "intent" component. SPAM relaying is certainly theft of services. As a mail server operator, and being located in the state of California, it's actually possible to collect $50 per message that transit the server (that'd be one per target, in the case of a fan-out, so it would be the list membership), up to a total of $25,000, per incident. I think that most FreeBSD lists have at least 500 subscribers, and even if they aren't in California, dragging them into the California state of venue from outside, at least in the U.S., will cost them, and you can always get a court order that garnishes their income, as a result of the incident. Plus $25,000 per incident would tend to buy a lot of SMP and IA-64 and SCSI crads and ... to push the project forward. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 10:29:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A9037B402 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22944; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:29:01 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms and other "malware." Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020310112625.02d94940@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:28:53 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Rejecting spam, accepting valid mail (was: Mail blocked) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org> <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:37 PM 3/9/2002, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >> The correct solution to this one is to fix the rule, not continue >> using invalid hostnames. > >It isn't an invalid hostname, it's an invalid message ID It conforms to the RFC so long as it's reasonably likely to be unique. Which it is, due to the way the other side of the "@" is generated on most mail programs. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 10:33:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9D1C37B41A for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:33:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22991; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:33:08 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms and other "malware." Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020310113030.00d51920@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:33:05 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Rejecting spam, accepting valid mail (was: Mail blocked) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3C8B01B9.D7BE84DC@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org> <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <3C8B01B9.D7BE84DC@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:53 AM 3/10/2002, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >That's interesting, as it implies that there are hundreds of thousands >of federal criminals (eg, a big % of usenet posters and hotmail/yahoo >users) running free. An RFC 822 message ID header isn't a "claim of identity." After all, it doesn't even contain a user name, just a "domain part" (something that meets the *syntax requirements* of a domain name). Which "localhost" certainly does. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 10:59:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E70CA37B404 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25654 invoked by uid 100); 10 Mar 2002 18:58:09 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15499.44224.110718.925695@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:58:08 -0600 To: "Nickolay A.Kritsky" , Paul Robinson , Terry Lambert Cc: Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Meyer Subject: Re: Re[4]: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-Reply-To: <1505738070.20020310181837@internethelp.ru> References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> <20020309144158.K32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15498.28088.976841.7441@guru.mired.org> <3C8A75A1.C567BB02@mindspring.com> <15498.34475.395754.932338@guru.mired.org> <3C8AFE22.72C005FA@mindspring.com> <3C8B0473.D544FB8@mindspring.com> <20020310164125.P32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <1136028208.20020310182327@internethelp.ru> <1505738070.20020310181837@internethelp.ru> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello all, Nickolay A.Kritsky types: > Hello Mike, > MM> You can learn that using your own system. Wanna learn how to break > MM> into a generic install of FreeBSD? Install one, and go to work on > MM> it. It's no less interesting/fun/educational than trying to break into > MM> someone elses, and a lot less likely to get you into trouble. > If I want to learn how to break into a generic install of FreeBSD, I > would follow your advice. But what if I want to learn how to break > into non-generic (web-hosting, complex mail server, load balancing > server) computer system installed on highly non-generic hardware (HP, > IBM, Cisco) with IDS'es, firewalls, sysadmins reading their logs and > sniffing interfaces? I cannot say which task is more educational, but the > second is much more fun/interesting. For me. So you're basically stealing computer time for "joy riding". If you really wanted to learn about those things, you could probably do it without breaking the law. Most of the sysadmins I've known wouldn't mind you trying to break in, so long as you told them about it before and afterwards. In fact, the policy for the more englightened of them was that the first person to report a hole granting a privilege was to give the person that privilege permanently. > BTW, do you really think, that all that is called "illegal" must be > avoided by any means possible? No offense meant. I just want to > understand your way of thinking? No, I don't think that's the case. On the other hand, I know what I had to go through to get access to strange hardware, and it just wasn't that painfull. All it took was some balls and respect. Nickolay A.Kritsky types: > Hello Mike, > Sunday, March 10, 2002, 1:03:23 AM, you wrote: > MM> Terry Lambert types: > >> Mike Meyer wrote: > >> > In that case, you've got to purchase proprietary hardware to do it, > >> > and it's liable to be expensive. But wanting to satisfy your > >> > curiousity doesn't justify your stealing from other people. > >> He's right. Computers that are running software take more > >> electricity than those running the idle loop. This works > >> because idle loops aren't software, and because CPU cycles > >> cost money when you use them to do work, but cost nothing > >> when there is no work to do. > >> 8-). > MM> Assuming, of course, that they were running an idle loop, and not > MM> doing real work. People don't normally spend 8 figures on computers > MM> that they then let sit idle a lot. > Why then, they buy such computers and put a buggy > ftp/telnet/you_name_it daemon there? Thinking of humans as "normals" > is one dangerous delusion. :) Granted. Terry's parody assumed they were running idle loops 100% of the time; I just wanted to point that out. Paul Robinson types: > On Mar 9, Mike Meyer wrote: > > One other comment - how many of you who felt like you had to break > > into computers to gain access to them thought about simply asking for > > access? > See my other post about splitting into two camps. By definition people on > this list will have fallen into the camp that went out and wanted to develop > their own Unix. You mean the post I already debunked? > It's a FreeBSD mailing list, so I think that's a safe > assumption. These days I have Unix everywhere I look. When I'm at > work, I'm playing with Unix. FreeBSD is on my laptop, and my PDA > runs Linux, so I'm never more than a few seconds away form a bash > prompt. I've got my Unix fix sorted out 24x7. In my living room I > have Sparc and VAX kit, and have the money to buy the hardware I > want to play with. Since we're talking about people developing their own, we're talking about pre-FreeBSD, and pre-386 hardware. Like I said, I was pretty generous with accounts during that era - at least when I could be. > But if I go back a few years (OK, make it about 7-8 years) then I can > remember not having access to any hardware whatsoever. My main desktop > machine was an original XT (in 1995?) and I was trying to save a few hundred > for an old-ish 386DX. I would have done anything to have had a DX4-100. The > idea of owning a Pentium was something that was so farfetched and ridiculous > at the time I never gave it serious consideration. Such luxury. You had a machine that could run Unix, if in an ugly fashion. My first machine was a z80 with a cassette drive. I worked three summers to buy a moderately good camera and darkroom gear, then sold them all to pay for that computer. > However, the point is I was young (al;most certainly foolish) and > from a relatively poor family. Can you not possibly understand, that > when I discovered I could very easily and quickly get access to IBM > S/360s, Crays, AS/400s, SunOS boxes, that I might possibly have > considered the risk would have been worth it? Oh yeah, and in my > case it got me laid once as well. :-) You know what it was like to be in your position. I was there, back when a US$1,000 home computer was an 8008 with 256 bytes of RAM. I managed to get access to similar hardware - S/370s, PDP-11's, VAXen, Sun's and Crays - by proving to the people who owned them that I could do worthwhile work on them. And I still played with the z80 box at home, and gave away accounts on some of that hardware to anyone who would ask. > I would never recommend hacking these days as access is too cheap and easy, > but I would never condone somebody who hacked just to look. I think there > are people on this list for whom access was just too easy. They never had > that situation where they were young and wanted access but couldn't get it, > as many here would have been in the ground floor and had access from the > beginning through their professional lives. I assume you mean "condemn", not "condon". True, that's been possible since I was old enough to legally work. But it's still possible. All it takes is the courage to go after what you want legally rather than illegally. > And motives do make a difference. If somebody is about to shoot you, and I > shoot them first, does that make me as much of a murderer as if I shot them > because I was insane and wanted to know what it felt like to shoot people? > If you think both crimes deserve the same punishment, then perhaps you need > to re-evaluate your sense of 'justice'. No, one is justifiable homicide and the other is murder. On the other hand, the comparison you're looking at would be more like accidently running over someone vs. shooting them in cold blood, the new one being "manslaughter". No, it's not murder. But the victim is just as dead. If you think the fact that the person who did it didn't mean to kill anyone means they shouldn't be punished, then you should re-evaluate your sense of 'justice'. Terry Lambert types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > Terry Lambert types: > > > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > > In that case, you've got to purchase proprietary hardware to do it, > > > > and it's liable to be expensive. But wanting to satisfy your > > > > curiousity doesn't justify your stealing from other people. > > > He's right. Computers that are running software take more > > > electricity than those running the idle loop. This works > > > because idle loops aren't software, and because CPU cycles > > > cost money when you use them to do work, but cost nothing > > > when there is no work to do. > > > 8-). > > Assuming, of course, that they were running an idle loop, and not > > doing real work. People don't normally spend 8 figures on computers > > that they then let sit idle a lot. > Apparently, you were not around when they charged for CPU > seconds, and each student was required to pre-buy them for > their lab time, and the machines didn't have "HLT" instructions > that saved "wear-and-tear" on the CPU, and the administrators > either didn't understand that idle resources cost the same > amount of money to maintain, or they didn't care. I don't know who you're talking to, but I think both Terry and I were around during the period when they charged for CPU seconds. I know I was, and from what Terry has said elsewhere, I get the impression he was. What you're missing is that the charges were all just "funny money". They weren't a way to collect funds; they were a way to allocate the - very limited - resources available to everyone who wanted some of them. The machine in question was almost *never* idle. When the remote job entry stations shut down was when the large memory-hungry (which back then meant wanting a megabyte of core) jobs got to run. Their wsa always a job ready to run. Someone stealing cycles was *not* stealing them from an idle loop, but usually from someone's research project. > Until the system is fully loaded, the cycles are not a scarce > (and therefore contended) resource. It costs the same to run > a DEC 20 with or without people running programs on it, so the > cycles might as well be doing computation. First, the system doesn't have to be fully loaded for adding a job to perturb other jobs on the system. If there's one big memory-hungry job, and you kick it out of memory by asking the system to run your command processor - well, you're just delayed someone's project. > > One other comment - how many of you who felt like you had to break > > into computers to gain access to them thought about simply asking for > > access? I tended to give it away whenever I could, and I know other > > places that had similar policies. For that matter, the university I > > attended seriously undercharged for CPU time, so you could buy lots of > > CPU time for not a lot of cash. > Apparently, you had the cash, and your university didn't put > quotas on the total amount of CPU time you could use, total, > no matter how much you paid. Your conclusions are completely and totally false. I didn't have the cash, and my university did put strict quotas on the total amount of CPU time you could use. I found professors who would gladly give me time from their budgets if I would do some work on their projects for them, or if they thought my project was interesting enough. > People who came after the charge-for-CPU cycles really had it > a lot easier than those who came before. The PC broke the > stranglehold, making it impossible for the big iron to be used > as a profit center any more. The local universities big iron was *not* a profit center; it was a cost center. I guarantee it. When UCB installed a Cray, they lost money on it on a such a regular basis that the only way they could affort it was to let Cray use it as a regional training machine. > It's quite amusing to see that people are still teaching -- and > learning, and then entering the workforce using -- software design > that makes usability such an afterthought... as if the "sell the > documentation" model were still the fundamental basis of software > economics. And people wonder why MS is so draconian about having > their software "phone home"... when they're obviously trying to > extend the lifetime of a dying revenue model. I think you're confused. MS made a name for itself by creating software that was easy to use. Their revenue model is based on upgrade sales, not tech support. They would refuse to sell tech support if they could get away with it. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 11:16: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23F7B37B402 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0441.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.186] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16k8nB-00074C-00; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:15:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3C8BB0C8.9A6D8493@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:15:20 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson Cc: Mike Meyer , Mike Meyer , "Nickolay A.Kritsky" , Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ References: <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> <20020309144158.K32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15498.28088.976841.7441@guru.mired.org> <3C8A75A1.C567BB02@mindspring.com> <15498.34475.395754.932338@guru.mired.org> <20020310164125.P32897@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson wrote: > And for anybody out there thinking about starting a career in hacking, it IS > big and it IS clever but just be aware that you ARE going to go to prison > unless you're lucky. Or join the CIA or something. :-) From personal experience, I can tell you that federal agencies seem to really not care about cyberwarfare capabilities, or even that other people have them, when the agencies don't seem to. If you look at the prerequisites for employment on the FBI web site, you will see that they are pretty far from what someone competent at cracking/hacking would have on their C.V. already. I ran into an incident a while back, and it took me weeks to find "the right people" to contact; even then, once they were contacted, they were largely indifferent to the threat. I guess it takes someone who has the ability to be able to say "If *I* could abuse this this way, then someone else could" to be alarmed at a capability. It was incredibly tempting to shove their face in it by blowing the information to the news media. You would think that after the immediately pre-September 11th stock market manipulations via Germany, the profits of which most probably went to fund additional terrorism, it would be a different story. Several years ago, I helped out with source tracking for another incident; it turned out "the right people" there were the Secret Service (bizarre; it was an international pump and dump fraud situation involving a SPAMmer with their own telephone exchange on the Isle of Man; who'd have thought the Secret Service were the people to call?!? I'd have been more likely to call Dr. Peter Venkman, myself...). I think the enforcement situation is still highly disorganized and likely to stay that way for quite a while, unfortunately (over half a billion in online credit card fraud last year; that would fund a lot of things I'd rather not think about, if it were in any way an organized effort). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 11:45:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gamma.star.spb.ru (gamma.star.spb.ru [217.195.79.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FD7737B42A for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:45:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from green.star.spb.ru (green.star.spb.ru [217.195.79.10]) by gamma.star.spb.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA83851; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 22:43:50 +0300 (MSK) Received: from 217.195.79.241 ([217.195.79.241]) by green.star.spb.ru with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id 10SY0LRC; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 22:42:55 +0300 Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 22:43:40 +0300 From: "Nickolay A. Kritsky" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal Reply-To: "Nickolay A.Kritsky" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <471838052.20020310224340@internethelp.ru> To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: Paul Robinson , Terry Lambert , Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , , Mike Meyer Subject: Re[6]: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-reply-To: <15499.44224.110718.925695@guru.mired.org> References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> <20020309144158.K32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15498.28088.976841.7441@guru.mired.org> <3C8A75A1.C567BB02@mindspring.com> <15498.34475.395754.932338@guru.mired.org> <3C8AFE22.72C005FA@mindspring.com> <3C8B0473.D544FB8@mindspring.com> <20020310164125.P32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <1136028208.20020310182327@internethelp.ru> <1505738070.20020310181837@internethelp.ru> <15499.44224.110718.925695@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello Mike, Sunday, March 10, 2002, 9:58:08 PM, you wrote: MM> Hello all, MM> Nickolay A.Kritsky types: >> Hello Mike, >> MM> You can learn that using your own system. Wanna learn how to break >> MM> into a generic install of FreeBSD? Install one, and go to work on >> MM> it. It's no less interesting/fun/educational than trying to break into >> MM> someone elses, and a lot less likely to get you into trouble. >> If I want to learn how to break into a generic install of FreeBSD, I >> would follow your advice. But what if I want to learn how to break >> into non-generic (web-hosting, complex mail server, load balancing >> server) computer system installed on highly non-generic hardware (HP, >> IBM, Cisco) with IDS'es, firewalls, sysadmins reading their logs and >> sniffing interfaces? I cannot say which task is more educational, but the >> second is much more fun/interesting. For me. MM> So you're basically stealing computer time for "joy riding". If you MM> really wanted to learn about those things, you could probably do it MM> without breaking the law. Most of the sysadmins I've known wouldn't MM> mind you trying to break in, so long as you told them about it before MM> and afterwards. In fact, the policy for the more englightened of them MM> was that the first person to report a hole granting a privilege was to MM> give the person that privilege permanently. Sorry, but my English is not very good. My dictionary translates "joy-riding" as something like "stealing other people's car and driving it as a madman". Did I understand you right? If yes, than I think that you got me wrong. Hacking other people's systems isn't more interesting because it breaks some laws. It is more interesting, just because it is harder. I like hard work. What about "most sysadmins wouldn't mind... etc" - let's make an experiment. I will make such proposal to one or more sysadmin chosen randomly, and see what they would answer. I am a newbie in computer science and haven't tried such scenario yet. That could be interesting!!! >> BTW, do you really think, that all that is called "illegal" must be >> avoided by any means possible? No offense meant. I just want to >> understand your way of thinking? MM> No, I don't think that's the case. On the other hand, I know what I MM> had to go through to get access to strange hardware, and it just MM> wasn't that painfull. All it took was some balls and respect. I think I will change my first question. If stealing cpu cycles wasn't illegal, would you do this to get access to strange hardware? ;------------------------------------------- ; NKritsky ; mailto:nkritsky@internethelp.ru To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 13:54:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043C437B405; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:54:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4D8BD13; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:54:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA31695; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:54:33 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g2ALvqO05041; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:57:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Greg Lehey , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rejecting spam, accepting valid mail (was: Mail blocked) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org> <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <3C8B01B9.D7BE84DC@mindspring.com> <3C8BA2EF.C9C533A8@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 10 Mar 2002 13:57:52 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C8BA2EF.C9C533A8@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <78sn78axwf.n78@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > is certainly theft of services. As a mail server operator, and > being located in the state of California, it's actually possible > to collect $50 per message that transit the server (that'd be > one per target, in the case of a fan-out, so it would be the list > membership), up to a total of $25,000, per incident. That sounds like an argument for a highly porous filter. Why do you suppose the ambulance chasers haven't gotten involved? 40% of $25,000 isn't enough to see these kinds of cases through? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 15:37:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from joshua.nobaloney.net (joshua.nobaloney.net [63.108.93.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448A437B400 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobaloney.net (adsl-64-170-53-154.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.170.53.154]) (authenticated) by ns1.ns-one.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g2ANbrV22941 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:37:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3C8BEE50.4781D191@nobaloney.net> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:37:52 -0800 From: Jeff Lasman Organization: nobaloney.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> <20020309144158.K32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <20020309164039.A89088@energyhq.homeip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Miguel Mendez wrote: > Yeah, I remember when I accessed a local uni Cray (a pretty old one btw) and spent > quite some time reading those wonderful man pages and UNICOS > documentation. I never did anything else on that computer other than > read man pages and compile a couple programs to learn about 64bit'isms. > I don't think I'm a criminal for that. It's not what you think so much as what the local District Attorney thinks. > It may be not right, but it's not that bad as long as you have ethics. I > mean, if there had been available test systems for me to use at that > time I probably would have never attempted to access any of those > computers. So let me unerstand your rationalization: Because Cadillac didn't give you a new Elantra, it's okay to borrow the one owned by the old couple down the street, as long as you only borrow it when they're not using it 'cause they're asleep, and as long as you return it when you're done? Sounds like an interesting set of ethics to me. Jeff -- Jeff Lasman Linux and Cobalt/Sun/RaQ Consulting nobaloney.net P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA 92517 voice: (909) 778-9980 * fax: (702) 548-9484 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 17:19:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26EA837B404; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 17:19:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0364.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.109] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16kESw-0005TO-00; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 17:19:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3C8C05F7.E400CB3E@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 17:18:47 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Greg Lehey , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rejecting spam, accepting valid mail (was: Mail blocked) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org> <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <3C8B01B9.D7BE84DC@mindspring.com> <3C8BA2EF.C9C533A8@mindspring.com> <78sn78axwf.n78@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > is certainly theft of services. As a mail server operator, and > > being located in the state of California, it's actually possible > > to collect $50 per message that transit the server (that'd be > > one per target, in the case of a fan-out, so it would be the list > > membership), up to a total of $25,000, per incident. > > That sounds like an argument for a highly porous filter. > > Why do you suppose the ambulance chasers haven't gotten involved? > 40% of $25,000 isn't enough to see these kinds of cases through? It's even sweeter. The implication of the wording of the law is that putting your notice in the SMTP greeting message you get when connecting to the mail server constitutes "sufficient notification" under the law. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 18: 7:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4114737B416 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:07:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 35A897831F; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:37:13 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:37:13 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Fraud (was: Rejecting spam, accepting valid mail (was: Mail blocked)) Message-ID: <20020311123713.H36158@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org> <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Saturday, 9 March 2002 at 17:37:01 -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: > >> I use a number of techniques to reject spam. It's fairly clear that >> an invalid server name can be construed in a number of ways: >> >> 1. An attempt to defraud: >> >> In: EHLO localhost.localdomain >> Out: 250-wantadilla.lemis.com >> Out: 250-PIPELINING >> Out: 250-SIZE 10240000 >> Out: 250-ETRN >> Out: 250 8BITMIME >> In: MAIL From: SIZE=1790 >> Out: 250 Ok >> In: RCPT To: >> Out: 450 Client host rejected: cannot find your hostname, [211.23.186.108] >> >> This one is clearly spam. > > If "clearly" means "very likely", then yes. Few would blame you for > not worrying about the other, more unlikely cases. > > I assume that the above is not a personal accusation, but allow me > to warn about the easily misused word "defraud", given that libel > juries can more accurately judge the inference than the implication. > > defraud, tr.v., To take from or deprive of by fraud; to swindle. Well, that's one of many definitions, and it's incomplete, since it doesn't define what fraud is. The Oxford English Dictionary lists a total of 5 meanings of the word "defraud", one of which is: 1. c. absol. To act with or employ fraud. It finds ten meanings for the word "fraud", including: 3. a. An act or instance of deception, an artifice by which the right or interest of another is injured, a dishonest trick or stratagem. I think this is pretty much what this kind of spammer does. I'm attaching the complete entries for your amusement. Sorry about the emetic format. It's clear to me at any rate that any legal interpretation by a US court is pretty irrelevant. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=foo Entry printed from Oxford English Dictionary (c) Oxford University Press 1999 fraud, n. (frO;d) Forms: 4_6 fraude, frawd(e, 4_ fraud. [a. OF. fraude, ad. L. fraude-m (fraus) deceit, injury.] 1. The quality or disposition of being deceitful; faithlessness, insincerity. Now rare. ?a1400 Morte Arth. 3919 Alle for falsede, and frawde. c1430 Lydg. Min. Poems 162 Fle doubilnesse, fraud, and collusioun. 1508 Dunbar Twa mariit wemen 255, I semyt sober, and sueit, et sempill without fraud. 1599 Shakes. Much Ado ii. iii. 74 The fraud of men was euer so. 1672 Marvell Corr. Wks. 1872_5 II. 408, I do not believe there is any fraud in him. 1718 Hickes & Nelson J. Kettlewell ii. xxvi. 128 A Person of Simplicity without Fraud. 1827 Macaulay Machiav. Ess. (1854) 36 Vices+which are the natural defence of weakness, fraud and hypocrisy. personified. 1606 Dekker Sev. Sinnes ii. (Arb.) 21 Frawd (with two faces) is his Daughter. 1790 Burke Fr. Rev. Wks. V. 88 The discredited paper securities of impoverished fraud, and beggared rapine. 2. a. Criminal deception; the using of false representations to obtain an unjust advantage or to injure the rights or interests of another. c1330 R. Brunne Chron. (1810) 128 In alle manere cause he sought te right in skille, To gile no to fraude wild he neuer tille. 1382 Wyclif Mark x. 19 Do no fraude, worschipe thi fadir and modir. 1570 B. Googe Pop. Kingd. i. (1880) 7 But safely keepes that he hath long, with frawde and lying got. 1667 Milton P.L. i. 646 To work in close design, by fraud or guile, What force effected not. 1726_7 Swift Gulliver i. vi. 67 They look upon fraud as a greater crime than theft. 1829 Lytton Devereux iii. iii, Fraud has been practised. b. in Law. in fraud of, to the fraud of: so as to defraud; also, to the detriment or hindrance of. [1278 Stat. Glouc. 6 Edw. I, c. 11 Ou par collusiun ou par fraude pur fere le termer perdre sun terme. 1292 Britton i. ii. S11 Ne nule manere de fraude.] 1590 Swinburne Testaments 151 The condition is reiected, as being made in fraude of mariage. 1596 Spenser State Irel. Wks. (Globe) 622/2 The same Statutes+are often+wrested to the fraud of the subject. 1845 Stephen Comm. Laws Eng. (1874) II. 268 And shall not have deposited or invested in fraud of his creditors. 1848 Wharton Law Lex., Fraud, all deceitful practices in defrauding or endeavouring to defraud another of his known right, by means of some artful device, contrary to the plain rule of common honesty. 3. a. An act or instance of deception, an artifice by which the right or interest of another is injured, a dishonest trick or stratagem. c1374 Chaucer Boeth. i. pr. iv. 9 (Camb. MS.) The iustice Regal hadde whilom demed hem bothe to gon into exil for hir trecheryes and fraudes. c1440 York Myst. xxxiii. 131 If _e feyne slike frawdis. 1526 Pilgr. Perf. (W. de W. 1531) 10b, Moo than a thousande wayes he hath by his craftly fraudes to deceyue man. 1691 Hartcliffe Virtues 317 The Pharisees+made great shews of Piety, to cover their Frauds and Rapines. 1751 Johnson Rambler No. 126 34 Declaiming against the frauds of any employment. 1836 J. Gilbert Chr. Atonem. iii. (1852) 72 The fraud of imputing guilt to a known innocent being. 1852 C. M. Yonge Cameos II. xxix. 312 Most of the Dauphin's followers gloried in their successful fraud and murder. b. in Law. statute of frauds: the statute 29 Chas. II, c. 3, by which written memoranda were in many cases required to give validity to a contract. 1678 Act 29 Chas. II, c. 3 title, An Act for Prevention of Frauds and Perjuries. 1765 Blackstone Comm. i. 362 The frauds, naturally consequent upon this provision+produced [etc.]. 1827 Jarman Powell's Devises II. 29 Which prevents the statute of Frauds from being a bar. 1858 Ld. St. Leonards Handy-bk. Prop. Law vii. 38 An instance of what is deemed a sufficient fraud to enable equity to relieve. c. pious fraud: a deception practised for the furtherance of what is considered a good object; esp. for the advancement of religion. [1563_87 Foxe A. & M. (1684) III. 898 Their accustomed lies, which they term Fraudes pieuses, pious beguilings.] 1678 Cudworth Intell. Syst. 319 There is too much cause to suspect that there have been some Pious Frauds practised upon these Trismegistick Writings. 1712 Addison Spect. No. 419 35 Pious Frauds were made use of to amuse Man~kind. 1855 Milman Lat. Chr. (1864) II. iii. vii. 143 The pious fraud of a nurse who had substituted her own child for the youngest of the Emperor. transf. 1868 Lowell Willows xxi, May is a pious fraud of the almanac, A ghastly parody of real Spring. 4. a. A method or means of defrauding or deceiving; a fraudulent contrivance; in mod. colloq. use, a spurious or deceptive thing. 1658 Sir T. Browne Hydriot. 35 They had an happy fraud against excessive lamentation, by a common opinion that deep sorrows disturbed their ghosts. 1697 Dryden Virg. Georg. iv. 575 Surprize him first, and with hard Fetters bind; Then all his Frauds will vanish into Wind. 1725 Pope Odyss. iv. 597 New from the corse, the scaly frauds diffuse Unsavoury stench of oil. 1782 Cowper Progr. Err. 17 Not all+Can+Discern the fraud beneath the specious lure. 1880 McCarthy Own Times III. 5 Many persons persisted in believing that his supposed suicide was but another fraud. 1890 L. B. Walford Mischief of Monica i, The whole place is a fraud+we can't live in a villa. b. colloq. of a person: One who is not what he appears to be; an impostor, a humbug; spec. U.S. (see quot. 1895). 1850 Dickens Reprinted Pieces (1866) 120 The begging- letter writer is one of the most shameless frauds and impositions of this time. 1885 F. B. Van Voorst Without a Compass 12, I had called him an old fraud. 1895 Standard Dict., Fraud+specifically+a person, firm, or corporation declared by the Postmaster-general+to be engaged in obtaining money by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, [etc.]+and therefore debarred from obtaining payment of money-orders or the delivery of registered letters. _5. By Milton used in passive sense (as L. fraus): State of being defrauded or deluded. 1667 Milton P.L. ix. 643 So glister'd the dire Snake, and into fraud Led Eve. 1671 I P.R. i. 373 To all his Angels he proposed To draw the proud king Ahab into fraud, That he might fall in Ramoth. 6. Comb., as fraud squad; _fraud-doing vbl. n.; _fraud-wanting adj.; fraud order U.S., an official order prohibiting the delivery of letters to a firm or individual suspected of making illegal use of the postal service. 1382 Wyclif Dan. xi. 21 He+shal weelde the rewme in *fraude doynge. 1905 Calkins & Holden Art Mod. Advertising 258 It is often impossible to prosecute the advertisers, and the most the post-office department can do is to issue what is known as a *fraud order. Such an order peremptorily and without redress stops the mail of the advertiser. 1931 C. Kelly U.S. Postal Policy 150 Under a `fraud order' all mail directed to such persons or company is stamped `Fraudulent' on the outside and returned to the sender. 1967 Economist 7 Jan. 49/2 There is also the *Fraud Squad, of gallant lay policemen undertaking (astonishingly well under the circumstances) inquiries that need the most sophisticated legal and financial expertise. 1971 Times 27 Sept. 3/3 Post Office investigators and members of Scotland Yard's Fraud Squad are searching for a gang of expert forgers. 1600 Nashe Summer's Last Will F4 *Fraud-wanting honestie. --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=defraud Entry printed from Oxford English Dictionary cOxford University Press 1999 defraud, v. (dI"frO;d) [a. OF. defrauder (des-, def-, dif-), 14th c. in Godef., ad. L. dUfraudQre, f. de- I. 3 + fraudQre to cheat, f. fraus, fraud-em, deceit, fraud.] 1. To deprive (a person) by fraud of what is his by right, either by fraudulently taking or by dishonestly withholding it from him; to cheat, cozen, beguile. Const. of (_from). 1362 Langl. P. Pl. A. viii. 71 He tat begget+bote he habbe neode+defraudet te neodi. 14+ Epiph. in Tundale's Vis. (1843) 104 They+thanked God with all her hartis furst Whech hathe not defrawded hem of her lust. 1474 Caxton Chesse 98 To defraude the begiler is no fraude. 1555 Eden Decades 39 He had+defrauded the kynge of his portion. 1634 Sir T. Herbert Trav. 46 This poore Citie, was defrauded of her hopes. Ibid. 217, I will a little defraude the Reader from concluding with a few lines touching the first Discoverer. 1752 Johnson Rambler No. 199 37 To defraud any man of his due praise is unworthy of a philosopher. 1838 Emerson Addr. Camb., Mass. Wks. (Bohn) II. 198 Whenever the pulpit is usurped by a formalist, then is the worshipper defrauded. 1880 E. Kirke Garfield 39 We who defraud four million citizens of their rights. _b. with direct and indirect object. Obs. 1382 Wyclif Luke xix. 8 If I haue ony thing defraudid ony man I _elde the fourefold. 1600 Holland Livy iv. xii. 148 Defrauding servants a portion of their daily food. 1670 Milton Hist. Brit. vi. Harold, Harold+defrauded his soldiers their due+share of the spoils. c. absol. To act with or employ fraud. 1382 Wyclif 1 Cor. vi. 8 _e don wrong and defrauden [1388 doen fraude] or bigilen and that to britheren. 1611 Bible Mark x. 19 Doe not beare false witnesse, Defraud not. 1875 Jowett Plato (ed. 2) III. 102 If he is the trustee of an orphan, and has the power to defraud. 2. fig. To deprive or cheat (a thing) of what is due to it; to withhold fraudulently. arch. or Obs. 1497 Bp. Alcock Mons Perfect. Dj/3 They selle Cryst & defraudeth theyr relygyon. 1559 Bp. Cox in Strype Ann. Ref. I. vi. 98 They defrauded the payment of tithes and firstfruits. 1660 Boyle Seraph. Love 26 Where a direct and immediate expression of love to God defrauds not any other Duty. 1764 Goldsm. Trav. 277 Here beggar pride defrauds her daily cheer, To boast one splendid banquet once a year. a1805 Paley (in Webster 1828), By the duties deserted+by the claims defrauded. Hence de"frauding vbl. n. 1548 Udall, etc. Erasm. Par. 1 Cor. vii. (R.), To denye this right yf eyther of bothe aske it, is a defraudyng. 1651 Hobbes Leviath. ii. xxvii. 160 The robbing, or defrauding of a Private man. 1659 Gauden Tears of Ch. 235 Few do pay them without delayings, defalkings, and defraudings. --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 18:32: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C707237B404 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:31:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 30969 invoked by uid 100); 11 Mar 2002 02:31:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15500.5902.527507.760058@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 20:31:42 -0600 To: "Nickolay A.Kritsky" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , Paul Robinson , Terry Lambert , Peter Leftwich , Miguel Mendez , Cliff Sarginson , , Mike Meyer Subject: Re: Re[6]: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ In-Reply-To: <471838052.20020310224340@internethelp.ru> References: <20020306191854.C2150-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <3C86C11C.8A31C8BB@mindspring.com> <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> <20020309144158.K32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15498.28088.976841.7441@guru.mired.org> <3C8A75A1.C567BB02@mindspring.com> <15498.34475.395754.932338@guru.mired.org> <3C8AFE22.72C005FA@mindspring.com> <3C8B0473.D544FB8@mindspring.com> <20020310164125.P32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <1136028208.20020310182327@internethelp.ru> <1505738070.20020310181837@internethelp.ru> <15499.44224.110718.925695@guru.mired.org> <471838052.20020310224340@internethelp.ru> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello Nickolay, Nickolay A. Kritsky types: > MM> So you're basically stealing computer time for "joy riding". If you > MM> really wanted to learn about those things, you could probably do it > MM> without breaking the law. Most of the sysadmins I've known wouldn't > MM> mind you trying to break in, so long as you told them about it before > MM> and afterwards. In fact, the policy for the more englightened of them > MM> was that the first person to report a hole granting a privilege was to > MM> give the person that privilege permanently. > Sorry, but my English is not very good. My dictionary translates > "joy-riding" as something like "stealing other people's car and > driving it as a madman". Did I understand you right? If yes, than I > think that you got me wrong. That's close, but not quite what I meant. Drop "driving like a madman." The example would be that I can't afford a Ferrari, so I'll still one - well, around here it'd be a Humvee - and ride around in it for a while. Not necessarily like a madman, though that's normally part of the deal, as you've just commited grand larceny, so traffic tickets are relatively minor. > Hacking other people's bsystems isn't more > interesting because it breaks some laws. It is more interesting, just > because it is harder. I like hard work. What about "most sysadmins > wouldn't mind... etc" - let's make an experiment. I will make such > proposal to one or more sysadmin chosen randomly, and see what they > would answer. I am a newbie in computer science and haven't tried > such scenario yet. That could be interesting!!! Fair enough. Here's the deal: You have to offer to try and break into their systems. If you do, you will not change any files or read any files other than system configuration information. You will also provide them with full details of how you did it, including anything you did to raise your privileges once you are in the system. Their side of the bargain is that if you follow the above rules, they will treat you as an unpaid employee, so you're not doing anything illegal. Should you not follow those rules, then you're subject to prosecution to the full extent of the law. As an aside, even if you were an employee and broke those rules, you could still be fired and prosecuted under computer abuse laws in some areas. I've offered that exact deal to self-proclaimed "hackers" at times. None of them ever took me up on it. > >> BTW, do you really think, that all that is called "illegal" must be > >> avoided by any means possible? No offense meant. I just want to > >> understand your way of thinking? > MM> No, I don't think that's the case. On the other hand, I know what I > MM> had to go through to get access to strange hardware, and it just > MM> wasn't that painfull. All it took was some balls and respect. > I think I will change my first question. If stealing cpu cycles wasn't > illegal, would you do this to get access to strange hardware? No, I wouldn't. Just like if killing someone weren't illegal, I wouldn't commit a murder. Or if stealing cars weren't illegal, I wouldn't go steal a Humvee. I have to much respect for the property of others to do those things, and to me the cycles of a computer that belongs to someone are as much persons property as the computer itself. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 23: 7:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292F137B404; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 23:07:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B84A9BD8B; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 23:07:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19391; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 23:07:51 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g2B7B7K06498; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 23:11:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Fraud (was: Rejecting spam, accepting valid mail (was: Mail blocked)) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org> <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <20020311123713.H36158@wantadilla.lemis.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 10 Mar 2002 23:11:07 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020311123713.H36158@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: Lines: 72 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Saturday, 9 March 2002 at 17:37:01 -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > Greg Lehey writes: > > > >> I use a number of techniques to reject spam. It's fairly clear that > >> an invalid server name can be construed in a number of ways: > >> > >> 1. An attempt to defraud: > >> > >> In: EHLO localhost.localdomain > >> Out: 250-wantadilla.lemis.com > >> Out: 250-PIPELINING > >> Out: 250-SIZE 10240000 > >> Out: 250-ETRN > >> Out: 250 8BITMIME > >> In: MAIL From: SIZE=1790 > >> Out: 250 Ok > >> In: RCPT To: > >> Out: 450 Client host rejected: cannot find your hostname, [211.23.186.108] > >> > >> This one is clearly spam. > > > > If "clearly" means "very likely", then yes. Few would blame you for > > not worrying about the other, more unlikely cases. > > > > I assume that the above is not a personal accusation, but allow me > > to warn about the easily misused word "defraud", given that libel > > juries can more accurately judge the inference than the implication. > > > > defraud, tr.v., To take from or deprive of by fraud; to swindle. > > Well, that's one of many definitions, and it's incomplete, since it > doesn't define what fraud is. The Oxford English Dictionary lists a > total of 5 meanings of the word "defraud", one of which is: > > 1. c. absol. To act with or employ fraud. Your dic. is bigger than my dic. (mine's only 1500 pages :-) and so I'll have to admit to being wrong about "defraud" not having a recognized meaning without the aspect of theft or injury, etc. In response to your response, I will note that the meaning of "fraud" is more-or-less irrelevant to my dic.'s definition; the point is that it involved a "taking" or "deprivation", not just a "fraud", which ever sense anyone wishes to assume for "fraud", and not a simple identity confusion. I believed that many people, including you, thought otherwise and I was trying (wrongly, I must now admit) to disabuse you of the notion so that you don't accuse people of using the legal form of fraud and having it being interpreted as the illegal form of fraud, thus damaging their reputation and making you subject to libel laws (even in AU, no doubt). Now knowing the ambiguity of the term, not just in many people's minds, but in the OED, my point is even stronger. Of course, you free to ignore it; few are sued for their libel. Furthermore, after the intervening discussion, I'll even have to agree that some lawyers could find that any form if identity confusion or mail-filter penetration (even not for the purposes of spam or theft or damage) actually is damaging or costly and so the accusation would not be libelous in any case. You're free to call me a crook for allowing someone's mail software to form my Message ID. And I've been obstinate about changing my local host's name to match my ISP account name for years I don't see it changing any time soon and I won't be in any hurry trying to figure out how to kludge up my Message ID to not not [a poor attempt at making a point there] penetrate someone's unique idea of a mail filter rule. Anyway, I'm always glad to learn about words. Thanks for the info. I almost forget: Do you know what "c." or "absol." means in your OED quote above? (My dic. was inadequate again.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 11 3:14:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF1F37B43C for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 03:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1CCC43FC25; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:13:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:13:27 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Jeff Lasman Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://users.uk.freebsd.org/~juha/ Message-ID: <20020311121326.B403@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Jeff Lasman , chat@freebsd.org References: <15494.52528.125952.145716@guru.mired.org> <3C86D7D6.C11D7E@mindspring.com> <15494.58407.33613.314390@guru.mired.org> <8457986570.20020307135407@internethelp.ru> <15495.57385.993281.469551@guru.mired.org> <20020308113108.G32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <15497.12783.643757.175742@guru.mired.org> <20020309144158.K32897@iconoplex.co.uk> <20020309164039.A89088@energyhq.homeip.net> <3C8BEE50.4781D191@nobaloney.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="R3G7APHDIzY6R/pk" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3C8BEE50.4781D191@nobaloney.net>; from jblists@nobaloney.net on Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:37:52PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --R3G7APHDIzY6R/pk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:37:52PM -0800, Jeff Lasman wrote: > > read man pages and compile a couple programs to learn about 64bit'isms. > > I don't think I'm a criminal for that. >=20 > It's not what you think so much as what the local District Attorney > thinks. Well, I'm not USian, and to be honest I'm not up to date of the current hacking laws in Spain. Back when that happened (1996) there wasn't a clearly defined law about that matters AFAIK. > So let me unerstand your rationalization: Because Cadillac didn't give > you a new Elantra, it's okay to borrow the one owned by the old couple > down the street, as long as you only borrow it when they're not using it > 'cause they're asleep, and as long as you return it when you're done? Jeff, having arguments about these subjects is hardly ever useful. I'm not going to change my mind, and you're not going to. I find all these house/cars analogies to be flawed. If I used my neighbours' car, the cost would be measurable, gasoline, tires, etc. IMHO accessing a computer system is somewhat different. Had I done any damage on those systems I'd understand it being a bad thing, but I never touched anything, nor read email or stuff like that. My aim was to learn about those systems, not disturb people. I even notified the admins of those flaws in their systems. It's my way of thinking , and it happens to be different from yours. I consider hacking (in that sense) an important part of my unix education, you just have to know where the line is and not cross it. Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --R3G7APHDIzY6R/pk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8jJFVnLctrNyFFPERAq3SAJ4gzZALdlkVtjNjL87O6janHDdnIwCfXraA JxKI5/sSiB3y8yZGEBc0vc8= =6eA3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --R3G7APHDIzY6R/pk-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 11 7:48:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail3.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CCC137B416; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from greid.oriel.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.146.151] helo=sobek.lan) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16kS1r-0003R6-03; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:48:03 +0000 Received: (from greid@localhost) by sobek.lan (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2BFm3039522; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:48:03 GMT (envelope-from greid@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: sobek.lan: greid set sender to greid@FreeBSD.org using -f Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:48:03 +0000 From: George Reid To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Greg Lehey , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Fraud (was: Rejecting spam, accepting valid mail (was: Mail blocked)) Message-ID: <20020311154803.A39237@FreeBSD.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306234510.01ee0180@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307094130.01f59240@nospam.lariat.org> <3cg03ccef4.03c@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20020307221616.00cb9980@nospam.lariat.org> <20020308190102.B679@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <20020311123713.H36158@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from swear@blarg.net on Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 11:11:07PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 11:11:07PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > I almost forget: Do you know what "c." or "absol." means in your OED > quote above? (My dic. was inadequate again.) "c" is the third letter of the alphabet ("To act with or employ fraud" is the third entry) and "absol." is "absolute": absolute verbs are transitive verbs with implied (but not explicitly stated) objects. -- George C A Reid Tel: (08701) 200870 Ext. 26654 FreeBSD Committer/Developer greid@FreeBSD.org Oriel College, Oxford University george.reid@oriel.ox.ac.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 12 16:53:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uce55.uchaswv.edu (uce55.uchaswv.edu [12.4.161.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4026937B41C for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:53:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from there ([172.16.32.103]) by uce55.uchaswv.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA27975 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:57:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200203130057.TAA27975@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nathan Mace To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: backups of log files Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:53:49 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org just wondering how you guys make backups of your log file(or even if you do). how do you do it? i assume you have a cron job that does it every so often. i'm trying to write my 1st *USEFUL* perl program, and i want it to take a directory of log files and create a .tar file of them in another directory. it does that just fine. the problem is that the next time it does it, it overrides the 1st backup, so how can i get it name them backup1.tar or name them after the date like 1102.tar for january 1st 2002?? conceptually i can list lots of ways to do this, but i guess what i'm asking for is sample perl code. i can't seem to find anything that does this in the usual places i look. thanks Nathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 12 17:25:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4200537B402 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:25:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id D810D5346; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 02:25:29 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Nathan Mace Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: backups of log files References: <200203130057.TAA27975@uce55.uchaswv.edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 13 Mar 2002 02:25:29 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200203130057.TAA27975@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nathan Mace writes: > the problem is that the next time it does it, it overrides the 1st > backup, so how can i get it name them backup1.tar or name them after > the date like 1102.tar for january 1st 2002? 'perldoc POSIX', 'man strftime', and ask questions like this on questions@ please :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 12 17:32: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uce55.uchaswv.edu (uce55.uchaswv.edu [12.4.161.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC11A37B400 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from there ([172.16.32.103]) by uce55.uchaswv.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA28907; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:35:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200203130135.UAA28907@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nathan Mace To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: backups of log files Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:31:47 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <200203130057.TAA27975@uce55.uchaswv.edu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday 12 March 2002 08:25 pm, you wrote: > Nathan Mace writes: > > the problem is that the next time it does it, it overrides the 1st > > backup, so how can i get it name them backup1.tar or name them after > > the date like 1102.tar for january 1st 2002? > > 'perldoc POSIX', 'man strftime', and ask questions like this on > questions@ please :) sorry, didn't know where exactly this question should go Nathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 12 23: 3:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 834D537B404 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16l2nH-0007Zj-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 07:03:27 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 6A85D488B0 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:03:26 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 6686922597; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:03:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:03:27 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: backups of log files Message-ID: <20020313070327.GB1656@raggedclown.net> References: <200203130057.TAA27975@uce55.uchaswv.edu> <200203130135.UAA28907@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200203130135.UAA28907@uce55.uchaswv.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 12, 2002 at 08:31:47PM -0500, Nathan Mace wrote: > On Tuesday 12 March 2002 08:25 pm, you wrote: > > Nathan Mace writes: > > > the problem is that the next time it does it, it overrides the 1st > > > backup, so how can i get it name them backup1.tar or name them after > > > the date like 1102.tar for january 1st 2002? > > > > 'perldoc POSIX', 'man strftime', and ask questions like this on > > questions@ please :) > > sorry, didn't know where exactly this question should go > Generally -questions is a good place to start for your enquiries, if it is not very obvious from the descriptions of the various lists where to post it. Two advantages to you a) you will almost certainly get a much quicker response than in -chat and b) someone there will almost certainly point you at one of the more specialised lists if that is appropriate for your question. Or point you back here if you want to start a fight .. oops, sorry I mean discussion :) This list is more for jazzing. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 12 23:48:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A462437B400 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a210.otenet.gr [212.205.215.210]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2D7mUuO015192; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:48:31 +0200 (EET) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2D7mUfb027244; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:48:30 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2D7mTIS027243; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:48:29 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hades.hell.gr: charon set sender to keramida@freebsd.org using -f Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:48:29 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Nathan Mace Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: backups of log files Message-ID: <20020313074829.GC375@hades.hell.gr> References: <200203130057.TAA27975@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200203130057.TAA27975@uce55.uchaswv.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-03-12 19:53, Nathan Mace wrote: > how can i get it name them backup1.tar or name > them after the date like 1102.tar for january 1st 2002?? conceptually i can > list lots of ways to do this, but i guess what i'm asking for is sample perl > code. i can't seem to find anything that does this in the usual places i > look. thanks You will probably want to have the day of month and month to have two digits, later on. As others have pointed out -questions is the best place for general FreeBSD questions, but here's a snippet that you might find interesting: use POSIX; $s = strftime("%d.%m.%Y", localtime()); print "$s\n"; Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 0:10:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C28637B498 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 00:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2D89UM00297; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:09:31 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020313074829.GC375@hades.hell.gr> References: <200203130057.TAA27975@uce55.uchaswv.edu> <20020313074829.GC375@hades.hell.gr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:09:08 +0100 To: Giorgos Keramidas , Nathan Mace From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: backups of log files Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:48 AM +0200 2002/03/13, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > You will probably want to have the day of month and month to have two > digits, later on. As others have pointed out -questions is the best place > for general FreeBSD questions, but here's a snippet that you might find > interesting: > > use POSIX; > $s = strftime("%d.%m.%Y", localtime()); > print "$s\n"; You should swap the order of year, month, and day, so that the files will automatically sort into the proper date order when you 'ls' them. Moreover, now you can claim that your program is ISO-compliant with regards to handling dates. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 2:41:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9EF37B405 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 02:41:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 38A965346; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:41:39 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Nathan Mace , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: backups of log files References: <200203130057.TAA27975@uce55.uchaswv.edu> <20020313074829.GC375@hades.hell.gr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 13 Mar 2002 11:41:38 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20020313074829.GC375@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas writes: > use POSIX; > $s = strftime("%d.%m.%Y", localtime()); > print "$s\n"; Umm, please, use %Y-%m-%d - it'll sort in the right order. And you can just do: print strftime("%Y-%m-%d\n", localtime()); or my $logfn = strftime("log.%Y-%m-%d", localtime()); or whatever, no need for an intermediate variable. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 13:58:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB64437B405 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16lGlW-0007Ii-00; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:58:34 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 13:58:34 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: ethernet interface listening to other interface's IP Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Should an ethernet interface listen to another interface's IPs? I've been told that all flavours of Unix work that way. I should do some tests, but I am interested in some comments. I was told (under Linux) that this server had two NIC cards configured with different IPs, but with one cable disconnected from one NIC card, the other interface still listened to the other's IP. I was told that you have to firewall so the packets will only be accepted on the correct interface. I think that that you shouldn't have to setup a firewall as a workaround: If your NIC card is configured for a particular IP and you want to stop it, then simply unplugging the ethernet cable should do it. (I do understand that many services listen to INADDR_ANY; but I am referring to the connection being listened to in the first place at the interface itself.) What is the correct behaviour and why? Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 14:22:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BACD37B41A for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id D66845347; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 23:22:31 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ethernet interface listening to other interface's IP References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 13 Mar 2002 23:22:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" writes: > What is the correct behaviour and why? Both are correct, under different circumstances. What you describe is called the weak ES model (ES == End System == host), and what you wish for is called the strong ES model. See section 3.3.4.2 of RFC1122. In FreeBSD, use the net.inet.check_interface sysctl to control this behaviour. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 15:29:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B16E37B487 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:29:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0256.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.1] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16lIBG-0004Ju-00; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:29:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3C8FE0B6.F831632A@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:28:54 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ethernet interface listening to other interface's IP References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > Should an ethernet interface listen to another interface's IPs? > > I've been told that all flavours of Unix work that way. I should do some > tests, but I am interested in some comments. What do you mean "listen"? In general, unless a cards MAC address is the destination address for the ethernet frame, then the interface will discard it, unless the interface is in promiscuous mode. By default, no interfaces are in promiscous mode. The section of RFC 1122 on multihoming that DES pointed you to is actually only relevent in the "Weak ES Model", where you are getting the packets up the IP stack because they are on a wire you atached to with an interface in promiscuous mode, or you are acting as a gateway, and are the designated gateway for the packets on the local wire. Normally, the only time this would happen is for a non-gateway host with an interface in promiscuous mode (e.g. running tcpdump). In general, it's bogus to do: ,-------. | A | `-------' | o-------+---------------+---------------+----------o 10.0.0/24 | | ,-------. ,-------. | 1 | | 2 | `-------' `-------' | | o-------+---------------+---------------+----------o 10.0.1/24 | ,-------. | B | `-------' And expect one machine to take over for the other automtaically, unless you are running something like VRRP, and (1) and (2) are acting as routers. Even then, you need explicit hardware support for VRRP domain MAC addresses, and the ARP failover has to be done corectly. If on the other hand, you have: ,-------. | A | `-------' | o-------+---------------+---------------+----------o 10.0.0/24 | | ,-------. ,-------. | 1 | | 2 | `-------' `-------' And A periodically makes connections to 10.0.0.1, and tha machine dies, and you expect 10.0.0.2 to take over... well, IP failover is another problem. It's partially resolvable using something like VRRP, but since (1) and (2) are endpoints, you can't expect the takeover to be transparent. Also, like the VRRP case, it is an error for the machine which is not the primary to respond to ARP "who has" requests for the secondary. > I was told (under Linux) that this server had two NIC cards configured > with different IPs, but with one cable disconnected from one NIC card, the > other interface still listened to the other's IP. This is wrong, unless they have an explicit failover mechanism. Actually, if you refer to the first diagram, getting from (A) to 10.0.1.1 depends on the gateway from the 10.0.0/24 to the 10.0.1/24 network. It's possible that if (1) was the designated gateway, and (1) went down *AND* you had a VRRP style protocol, then the path could change from A->10.0.0.1->10.0.1.1 to transit through (2) instead, e.g. A->10.0.0.2->10.0.1.2->10.0.1.1 (say if the interface for 10.0.0.1 failed). Most likely, though your IP address for the gateway would be something like 10.0.0.V, for the IP of the virtual router, which was then associated with the virtual MAC address. In the failover case, the virtual MAC address has to physically move to the other card for this to work. For Tigon II cards, there are 2 MAC addresses you can assign like this (though the driver does not support it, nor does FreeBSD's ARP code or network interface code, which would have to have a cloned driver for the other interface). For Tigon III cards, this goes up, and for Intel Gigabit cards, it goes to 4. None of these are sufficient for service failover (for example), which really can't be handed correctly in terms of current hardware, though there are some kludges that are close to working, which involve raw ethernet packets and putting the card into promiscuous mode at all times (the if_ep cards can actually be made to "support" two MACs by abusing the multicast mask). Plus FreeBSD supports none of this failover voodoo anyway, because it lacks the necessary infrastructure for the multiple MACs on one card with correct ARP handling. > I was told that you have to firewall so the packets will only be accepted > on the correct interface. Packets are only accepted if the MAC address matches a MAC address on the card, or a multicast group that passes the multicast mask on the card. If you don't jam the card into promiscuous mode, then it's not a problem, since you will only ever get packets from the card that match the MAC address. To prove this to yourself, on a non-gateway machine (so that the ARP doesn't cause the packets to be sent to the machines MAC address to transit the gateway, and therefore bypass the card MAC check), do a tcpdump without putting the interface into promiscouous mode (the "-p" option to tcpdump disables use of promiscuous mode). > I think that that you shouldn't have to setup a firewall as a workaround: > If your NIC card is configured for a particular IP and you want to stop > it, then simply unplugging the ethernet cable should do it. > > (I do understand that many services listen to INADDR_ANY; but I am > referring to the connection being listened to in the first place at the > interface itself.) > > What is the correct behaviour and why? See the posting by DES. If your interface has the MAC address that is the target for the ARP for the "who has" for the IP address, or if the interface is in promiscous mode, or if the interface is known to be the gateway and so your IP represents the default route for the packet from another machine, then the packet won't make it in. If you want the packet to be denied based on its source, when you have misconfigured your hardware, or have intentionally configured it to acpet packets that you don't want it to accept (begs the question: why the heck did you do that in the first palce, if you didn't want it to act the way you configured it to act?!?), then you have to stop it using the sysctl DES suggested. In general, this shouldn't *ever* be necessary, unless you've screwed up your configuration. The only reason I could think of for actually doing this would be to offer differential service to hosts on the same wire by virtue of their gateway address. In general, putting more than one physical card on the same wire in one machine is a really bad thing to do. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 16:39:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from isris.pair.com (isris.pair.com [209.68.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 19B4137B417 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:39:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 21243 invoked by uid 3130); 14 Mar 2002 00:39:35 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 19:39:35 -0500 From: Garrett Rooney To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: Chris BeHanna , FreeBSD-Stable Subject: Re: /etc/make.conf question Message-ID: <20020314003935.GB99137@electricjellyfish.net> References: <20020313185236.T35428-100000@topperwein.dyndns.org> <15503.59899.400935.847878@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15503.59899.400935.847878@guru.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 06:08:27PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > I haven't run into subversion before. The most interesting one last > time around was Bitkeeper. Perforce currently solves those problems, > and the people there love *BSD. However, it was built to look like a > proprietary system they used elsewhere, not like CVS. > > Can you provide a pointer to Subversion? I'd like to see how many of > the obscure things I do with Perforce it can be made to do as well. http://subversion.tigris.org/ it's still pre-alpha, although it is self hosting, and pretty usable in general. if you've got any questions, just mail dev@subversion.tigris.org, and we'd love to answer them. -garrett -- garrett rooney Unix was not designed to stop you from rooneg@electricjellyfish.net doing stupid things, because that would http://electricjellyfish.net/ stop you from doing clever things. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 21:30: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B757937B404 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:29:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server.highperformance.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2E5TsE00312 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:29:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) X-Authentication-Warning: server.highperformance.net: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:29:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: backups of log files In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Mar 2002, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Nathan Mace writes: > > the problem is that the next time it does it, it overrides the 1st > > backup, so how can i get it name them backup1.tar or name them after > > the date like 1102.tar for january 1st 2002? > > 'perldoc POSIX', 'man strftime', and ask questions like this on > questions@ please :) We need to maintain our N/S ratio! :) Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 12: 9:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B80D437B41A for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:09:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 574D2BD99; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:09:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA31956; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:09:07 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g2EKC1A31803; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:12:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Jan Grant Cc: "J.S." , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, keramida Subject: Re: BATTLE: The quest for proper filesystem layouts References: From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 14 Mar 2002 12:12:00 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (moved to -chat) Jan Grant writes: > Sounds like a discussion for -chat. I want to agree, but from http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html FREEBSD-CHAT "Non technical items related to the FreeBSD community" This list contains the overflow from the other lists about non-technical, social information. [more...] Does the charter need a change or is a -techchat list needed? I don't see a list who's charter includes technical chat except lists for some specific topics. Or maybe the -misc newsgroup should be good enough. I'd prefer that the -chat charter change to "Only messages that doesn't belong in other mailing lists". Some meta-charter should prohibit SPAM and some fuzzy prohibition of too much political or other messages that would interest people who don't use FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 12:28:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E5B37B404 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2EKSZK23070 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:28:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15088 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:28:35 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C9107D2.E3BA9F4@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:28:02 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Perl to C - book recommendations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just curious if any of you have any good book recommendations to learn C (not C++). I'm a perl guy now, and know a little bit of C, but would like to learn C easily without the boring "a program is a list of commands ..." stuff. I just need the "here's how you do this, this, and that. Here's an example and why it works/doesn't work". Hopefully I can contribute code to FreeBSD someday.. maybe. :) Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 13:15:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDCA537B404 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:15:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16lcZV-0001BM-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:15:37 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 217AF4881D for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:15:36 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 28BC622599; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:13:16 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:13:16 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BATTLE: The quest for proper filesystem layouts Message-ID: <20020314211316.GG10938@raggedclown.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 12:12:00PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > (moved to -chat) > > Jan Grant writes: > > > Sounds like a discussion for -chat. > > I want to agree, but from > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html > > FREEBSD-CHAT > > "Non technical items related to the FreeBSD community" > > This list contains the overflow from the other lists about > non-technical, social information. [more...] > > Does the charter need a change or is a -techchat list needed? I don't > see a list who's charter includes technical chat except lists for some > specific topics. Or maybe the -misc newsgroup should be good enough. > > I'd prefer that the -chat charter change to "Only messages that doesn't > belong in other mailing lists". Some meta-charter should prohibit SPAM > and some fuzzy prohibition of too much political or other messages that > would interest people who don't use FreeBSD. > Well, the last 6 mails I read on this very list should have all been on -questions. I think "chat" is chat, gossip, news, views, moans, groans vaguely in the FreeBSD world, but not totally confined to it. I am suspecting because -question is so busy some of the sneakies amongst us think we will get a quicker technical answer in a lower volume list like this :) -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 13:16:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB3237B41B for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16lcZz-0001Bu-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:16:07 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 136824880D for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:16:07 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 5FC542259C; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:16:07 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:16:07 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Perl to C - book recommendations Message-ID: <20020314211607.GH10938@raggedclown.net> References: <3C9107D2.E3BA9F4@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C9107D2.E3BA9F4@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 02:28:02PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > Just curious if any of you have any good book recommendations to learn C (not > C++). I'm a perl guy now, and know a little bit of C, but would like to learn C > easily without the boring "a program is a list of commands ..." stuff. I just > need the "here's how you do this, this, and that. Here's an example and why it > works/doesn't work". > Well you are ruined now. You have learnt perl the paragon of ugliness, and now you want to learn "C" the paragon of conciseness and with at least some semblance of discipline in it's design..:) The *only* book for you is the Bible, K&R, Second Edition. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 13:30: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13F0637B416 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:29:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2ELTRK24513; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:29:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16690; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:29:26 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C911615.1722C487@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:28:53 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Perl to C - book recommendations References: <3C9107D2.E3BA9F4@centtech.com> <20020314211607.GH10938@raggedclown.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thats hard to find with that little info.. got more? author? Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 02:28:02PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > > Just curious if any of you have any good book recommendations to learn C (not > > C++). I'm a perl guy now, and know a little bit of C, but would like to learn C > > easily without the boring "a program is a list of commands ..." stuff. I just > > need the "here's how you do this, this, and that. Here's an example and why it > > works/doesn't work". > > > Well you are ruined now. You have learnt perl the paragon of ugliness, > and now you want to learn "C" the paragon of conciseness and with at > least some semblance of discipline in it's design..:) > > The *only* book for you is the Bible, K&R, Second Edition. > > -- > Regards > Cliff Sarginson -- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 13:35: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A65237B404 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:34:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 0EB3E534A; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:34:56 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: anderson@centtech.com Cc: Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Perl to C - book recommendations References: <3C9107D2.E3BA9F4@centtech.com> <20020314211607.GH10938@raggedclown.net> <3C911615.1722C487@centtech.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Mar 2002 22:34:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3C911615.1722C487@centtech.com> Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson writes: > Thats hard to find with that little info.. got more? author? He did tell you the author... K&R DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 13:38: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94AF137B41A for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25695 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2002 21:37:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 14 Mar 2002 21:37:59 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2ELcOv36860; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:38:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3C911615.1722C487@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:38:00 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Eric Anderson Subject: Re: Perl to C - book recommendations Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Cliff Sarginson Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-Mar-2002 Eric Anderson wrote: > Thats hard to find with that little info.. got more? author? Brian Kernighan (sp?) and Dennis Ritchie. Brian is the 'k' in awk which is one of the ancestors of perl. > Cliff Sarginson wrote: >> >> On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 02:28:02PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: >> > Just curious if any of you have any good book recommendations to learn C >> > (not >> > C++). I'm a perl guy now, and know a little bit of C, but would like to >> > learn C >> > easily without the boring "a program is a list of commands ..." stuff. I >> > just >> > need the "here's how you do this, this, and that. Here's an example and >> > why it >> > works/doesn't work". >> > >> Well you are ruined now. You have learnt perl the paragon of ugliness, >> and now you want to learn "C" the paragon of conciseness and with at >> least some semblance of discipline in it's design..:) >> >> The *only* book for you is the Bible, K&R, Second Edition. >> >> -- >> Regards >> Cliff Sarginson -- >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology > If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 13:38:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E5BB37B404 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2ELc8K24733; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:38:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16854; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:38:08 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C91181F.CC8D7963@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:37:35 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Perl to C - book recommendations References: <3C9107D2.E3BA9F4@centtech.com> <20020314211607.GH10938@raggedclown.net> <3C911615.1722C487@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yea, I found it.. Looks like it gets all kinds of good reviews (if Dennis Ritchie is co-authoring, it has to be good). Thanks for the pointers!! Eric Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Eric Anderson writes: > > Thats hard to find with that little info.. got more? author? > > He did tell you the author... K&R > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 13:45:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04DD537B404 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:45:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id g2ELjEk90532; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:45:14 GMT (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Received: from grimreaper (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2ELgS0n087104; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:42:28 GMT (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200203142142.g2ELgS0n087104@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: anderson@centtech.com Cc: Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Perl to C - book recommendations References: <3C911615.1722C487@centtech.com> In-Reply-To: <3C911615.1722C487@centtech.com> ; from Eric Anderson "Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:28:53 CST." Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:42:28 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Thats hard to find with that little info.. got more? author? The C Programming Language, 2nd Ed. Kernigan & Richie. Run, do not walk; buy this book. M > Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > > > On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 02:28:02PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > > > Just curious if any of you have any good book recommendations to learn C (not > > > C++). I'm a perl guy now, and know a little bit of C, but would like to learn C > > > easily without the boring "a program is a list of commands ..." stuff. I just > > > need the "here's how you do this, this, and that. Here's an example and why it > > > works/doesn't work". > > > > > Well you are ruined now. You have learnt perl the paragon of ugliness, > > and now you want to learn "C" the paragon of conciseness and with at > > least some semblance of discipline in it's design..:) > > > > The *only* book for you is the Bible, K&R, Second Edition. > > > > -- > > Regards > > Cliff Sarginson -- > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology > If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 13:48:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28D637B419 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:48:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ld5j-0002X1-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:48:55 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 220104880D for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:48:54 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 5E91A2259B; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:48:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:48:55 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Perl to C - book recommendations Message-ID: <20020314214855.GC12074@raggedclown.net> References: <3C9107D2.E3BA9F4@centtech.com> <20020314211607.GH10938@raggedclown.net> <3C911615.1722C487@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 10:34:55PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Eric Anderson writes: > > Thats hard to find with that little info.. got more? author? > > He did tell you the author... K&R > Oh sorry, "C" programmers just call it K&R, after the authors, Kernhigan and Ritchie, two members of the Unix hall of fame. Some people also call it the "White Book"..but for me it will always be K&R :) -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 13:49:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9899337B428 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:49:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0226.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.226] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ld6N-0002uL-00; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:49:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3C911ADD.630C4CE0@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:49:17 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BATTLE: The quest for proper filesystem layouts References: <20020314211316.GG10938@raggedclown.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson wrote: > Well, the last 6 mails I read on this very list should have all been on > -questions. > > I think "chat" is chat, gossip, news, views, moans, groans vaguely in > the FreeBSD world, but not totally confined to it. I am suspecting > because -question is so busy some of the sneakies amongst us think we > will get a quicker technical answer in a lower volume list like this :) The charter precludes us from answering with a terse "RTFM", which is what you often expect on questions, or an even more terse "Go away you moron; morons like you have no business using FreeBSD". Of course, the charter *doesn't* preclude us answering with baseball scores... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 14: 0:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B73437B420 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16ldGM-000K8k-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:59:54 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 630564880D for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:59:54 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id E006522597; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:59:54 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:59:54 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BATTLE: The quest for proper filesystem layouts Message-ID: <20020314215954.GE12074@raggedclown.net> References: <20020314211316.GG10938@raggedclown.net> <3C911ADD.630C4CE0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C911ADD.630C4CE0@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:49:17PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > Well, the last 6 mails I read on this very list should have all been on > > -questions. > > > > I think "chat" is chat, gossip, news, views, moans, groans vaguely in > > the FreeBSD world, but not totally confined to it. I am suspecting > > because -question is so busy some of the sneakies amongst us think we > > will get a quicker technical answer in a lower volume list like this :) > > The charter precludes us from answering with a terse "RTFM", > which is what you often expect on questions, or an even more > terse "Go away you moron; morons like you have no business > using FreeBSD". > > Of course, the charter *doesn't* preclude us answering with > baseball scores... > What's baseball ? -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 14: 7:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B695737B402 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:07:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0226.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.226] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ldNO-0007bD-00; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:07:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3C911EFD.DB661B79@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:06:53 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BATTLE: The quest for proper filesystem layouts References: <20020314211316.GG10938@raggedclown.net> <3C911ADD.630C4CE0@mindspring.com> <20020314215954.GE12074@raggedclown.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > Of course, the charter *doesn't* preclude us answering with > > baseball scores... > > What's baseball ? 0xba5eba11; it's a hex number, much like 0xdeadc0de or 0xdeadbeef, which is used as a magic number in allocators and other memory usage tracking code. But that's not important right now... How 'bout them Mets?!?! -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 14:17:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D42C337B428 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:17:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ldXI-0004NZ-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:17:24 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id D8A034880D for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:17:23 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id F20DA22597; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:17:23 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:17:23 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BATTLE: The quest for proper filesystem layouts Message-ID: <20020314221723.GA12613@raggedclown.net> References: <20020314211316.GG10938@raggedclown.net> <3C911ADD.630C4CE0@mindspring.com> <20020314215954.GE12074@raggedclown.net> <3C911EFD.DB661B79@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C911EFD.DB661B79@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 02:06:53PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > > Of course, the charter *doesn't* preclude us answering with > > > baseball scores... > > > > What's baseball ? > > 0xba5eba11; it's a hex number, much like 0xdeadc0de or 0xdeadbeef, > which is used as a magic number in allocators and other memory > usage tracking code. > > But that's not important right now... > > How 'bout them Mets?!?! > I only know about cricket..and a new hunt and kill game called "Synchronised Swimmers, the thrill of the Drowning". -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 15:34:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38DE037B402 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA24611 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:38:45 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020314172830.01962ff8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:33:50 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Them Amazin' Mets In-Reply-To: <3C911EFD.DB661B79@mindspring.com> References: <20020314211316.GG10938@raggedclown.net> <3C911ADD.630C4CE0@mindspring.com> <20020314215954.GE12074@raggedclown.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:06 PM 3/14/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >How 'bout them Mets?!?! > >-- Terry They're trying to take a page out of the '97 Marlins book and buy a World Series, but I don't think it's gonna happen. (Of course, I didn't think it would happen for the Marlins either, but that's not the point.) The Mets are in 10th place (out of 16) in the NL pre-season so far. 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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 19:53:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A8DE637B42B for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 19:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 60832 invoked by uid 100); 15 Mar 2002 03:53:26 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:53:25 -0600 To: "Bob Kovacs" Cc: Subject: Re: Free BSD In-Reply-To: <000801c1cbd1$fc7d7b90$5cdcd63f@robertkovacs> References: <000801c1cbd1$fc7d7b90$5cdcd63f@robertkovacs> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Moved from -questions to -chat.] In <000801c1cbd1$fc7d7b90$5cdcd63f@robertkovacs>, Bob Kovacs typed: > When will Free BSD have a default desktop as elegant as Mac OSX?. Or is that just a dream. If Apple borrowed elements from Free BSD than why can't the favor be returned and Apple allow Free BSD to use the Aqua interface for Free BSD. > > > > > > > >
When will Free BSD have a default desktop as > elegant as Mac OSX?. Or is that just a dream. If Apple borrowed elements > from Free BSD than why can't the favor be returned and Apple allow Free BSD to > use the Aqua interface for Free BSD.
Probably about the time the most popular user mail agent on the internet quits sending HTML by default, and people starts wrapping lines at 78 characters as RFC 2822 says they should. You have to ask Apple why they wouldn't do that. I think the answer is obvious - if people could get the Mac interface without having to pay for a Mac, why would anyone buy a Mac? I also recommend you check out what Jef Raskin - who designed the original Mac interface - has to say about the OSX interface. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 20:43: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F26937B402 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:43:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2F4gr935949; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:42:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:42:53 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Mike Meyer Cc: Bob Kovacs , Subject: Re: Free BSD In-Reply-To: <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Mike Meyer wrote: > I also recommend you check out what Jef Raskin - who designed the > original Mac interface - has to say about the OSX interface. where would i find that? i'm dying of curiosity. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 21:12:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peckdani-2.user.msu.edu (peckdani-2.user.msu.edu [35.11.173.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D455B37B400 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:12:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dan@localhost) by peckdani-2.user.msu.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2F5C8L02382; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:12:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:12:07 -0500 From: Dan Peck To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: Mike Meyer , Bob Kovacs , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free BSD Message-ID: <20020315001207.C178@peckdani-2.user.msu.edu> Mail-Followup-To: "f.johan.beisser" , Mike Meyer , Bob Kovacs , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org>; from jan@caustic.org on Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:42:53PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm not sure, but I *think* he's referring to: http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/16564.html -Dan On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:42:53PM -0800, f.johan.beisser wrote: > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > I also recommend you check out what Jef Raskin - who designed the > > original Mac interface - has to say about the OSX interface. > > where would i find that? > > i'm dying of curiosity. > > -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ > http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org > "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse > of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- "Your theory is cray, but it's not crazy enough to be true." --Neils Bohr. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 21:32:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7782637B419 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:32:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16lkKC-000MUJ-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 05:32:20 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 8710D4880D for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 06:32:19 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id CAAD322597; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 06:32:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 06:32:19 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free BSD Message-ID: <20020315053219.GA1339@raggedclown.net> References: <000801c1cbd1$fc7d7b90$5cdcd63f@robertkovacs> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 09:53:25PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > [Moved from -questions to -chat.] > > In <000801c1cbd1$fc7d7b90$5cdcd63f@robertkovacs>, Bob Kovacs typed: > > When will Free BSD have a default desktop as elegant as Mac OSX?. Or is that just a dream. If Apple borrowed elements from Free BSD than why can't the favor be returned and Apple allow Free BSD to use the Aqua interface for Free BSD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
When will Free BSD have a default desktop as > > elegant as Mac OSX?. Or is that just a dream. If Apple borrowed elements > > from Free BSD than why can't the favor be returned and Apple allow Free BSD to > > use the Aqua interface for Free BSD.
> > Probably about the time the most popular user mail agent on the > internet quits sending HTML by default, and people starts wrapping > lines at 78 characters as RFC 2822 says they should. > > You have to ask Apple why they wouldn't do that. I think the answer is > obvious - if people could get the Mac interface without having to pay > for a Mac, why would anyone buy a Mac? > Also considering the tantrums they used to throw about their icons, I doubt if anyone would dare to copy it's looks... > I also recommend you check out what Jef Raskin - who designed the > original Mac interface - has to say about the OSX interface. > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 6:32: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FE2C37B405 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 06:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id D92105346; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:32:01 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free BSD References: <000801c1cbd1$fc7d7b90$5cdcd63f@robertkovacs> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020315053219.GA1339@raggedclown.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Mar 2002 15:32:00 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20020315053219.GA1339@raggedclown.net> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson writes: > Also considering the tantrums they used to throw about their icons, I > doubt if anyone would dare to copy it's looks... They've sent cease-and-desist letters to people who made Aqua themes for KDE and Gnome, so... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 11:14:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E02E37B417 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g2FJE6030628; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:14:06 +0100 (CET) To: paul beard Subject: Re: Free BSD Message-ID: <1016219646.3c9247fe203dd@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:14:06 +0100 (CET) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Bob Kovacs , chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.153.106 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ redirected to -chat before I get flamed :-) ] paul beard seems to have written: > I stopped using KDE since my 500 MHz laptop wasn't enough for it. Urk. I have been running KDE2 (and a bunch of other resource hogs^W^Wthings) on a PIII 450MHz without significant problems. On the other hand, my junk^Wworkstation has 384MB RAM -- well, for the time being. :-) I think RAM is the operative word here. -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 12: 6:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E93137B400 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:06:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0434.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.179] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16lxxj-0004ND-00; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:06:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3C925415.21C36649@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:05:41 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: paul beard , Bob Kovacs , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Free BSD References: <1016219646.3c9247fe203dd@webmail.neomedia.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > paul beard seems to have written: > > I stopped using KDE since my 500 MHz laptop wasn't enough for it. > > Urk. > > I have been running KDE2 (and a bunch of other resource hogs^W^Wthings) on a > PIII 450MHz without significant problems. On the other hand, my > junk^Wworkstation has 384MB RAM -- well, for the time being. :-) > > I think RAM is the operative word here. Actually, if you "downgrade" your tools so that they work, then use objprelink, things get much faster. It just isn't working (apparently) in -current. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 16: 1:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (rwcrmhc54.attbi.com [216.148.227.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A72C37B41F for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:01:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([12.231.115.57]) by rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020316000102.SDZO1214.rwcrmhc54.attbi.com@mac.com>; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 00:01:02 +0000 Message-ID: <3C928B17.5020300@mac.com> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:00:23 -0800 From: paul beard User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; NetBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020209 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Kovacs Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Free BSD References: <1016219646.3c9247fe203dd@webmail.neomedia.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > [ redirected to -chat before I get flamed :-) ] good idea ;-) > paul beard seems to have written: > > >>I stopped using KDE since my 500 MHz laptop wasn't enough for it. >> > > > Urk. > > I have been running KDE2 (and a bunch of other resource hogs^W^Wthings) on a > PIII 450MHz without significant problems. On the other hand, my > junk^Wworkstation has 384MB RAM -- well, for the time being. :-) > > I think RAM is the operative word here. I think you're right about that, but it's hard to believe 128 Mb is insufficient for a desktop/client UI. How did Apple get away with their (admittedly simple ) UI in 1 Mb on the old all-in-one toasters? And come to that, I have 384 Mb in a 350 MHz G3 and OS X is still less than zippy, where OS 9 fairly flies by comparison. To address Bob's question more directly, it helps to see FreeBSD for what it is: it's a high-performance OS with performance and stability coming before creature comforts. If you want to add a more hospitable UI, there are many options, all along the performance/comfort curve, from black box or [ugh] twm to KDE and Gnome. I like KDE2, but it's just so slow on this machine, it's hard to use. Contrast this with the Leading Brand where the UI is always there: why would you want to fill a datacenter with systems that always waste cycles on a UI and at the same time, don't support lightweight remote admin capabilities? (NB: the Register this week revealed that parts of HotMail still run on FreeBSD: 4 years down the road and who knows how many engineering dollars to add to the $400 million purchase price, and it still can't reliably run exclusively on any MS OS.) Anyway, I count 79 window manager entries in /usr/ports/x11-wm on one of my FreeBSD boxes. Add to that the themes and skins that you can add, and there has to be something for just about everyone. KDE2 and fvwm have the Windows[tm] emulation thing down so starting with one of them might make sense. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 16:26:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 122C237B430 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:26:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA30559 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:30:35 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:25:34 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Free BSD In-Reply-To: <20020315001207.C178@peckdani-2.user.msu.edu> References: <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:12 PM 3/14/2002, Dan Peck wrote: >http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/16564.html On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 at 16:00:23 Paul Beard wrote: >Anyway, I count 79 window manager entries in /usr/ports/x11-wm on one of >my FreeBSD boxes. Add to that the themes and skins that you can add, and >there has to be something for just about everyone. KDE2 and fvwm have the >Windows[tm] emulation thing down so starting with one of them might make sense. I read Jef Raskin's comments, and even though I've heard this opinion expressed before I don't understand them. If every window manager out there has done it wrong, why doesn't Raskin put his money where his mouth is and provide us with his vision of the humane GUI? I know that he's written his thoughts/experience in his book, but why not give us an implementation to show the uneducated masses his superior methodology at work? Furthermore, given that most GUIs have pretty much become standard in terms of the placement and use of various widgets and window decorations, wouldn't radical changes to them essentially run counter to the standardization that he argues is so beneficial? It's like the argument for Dvorak keyboards all over again; QWERTY may not be as efficient, but got so accustomed to it that displacing it became unlikely. << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 16:35:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FEE237B404 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:35:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 47C055347; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 01:35:46 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Free BSD References: <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Mar 2002 01:35:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> Message-ID: Lines: 29 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton writes: > I read Jef Raskin's comments, and even though I've heard this opinion > expressed before I don't understand them. If every window manager out > there has done it wrong, why doesn't Raskin put his money where his > mouth is and provide us with his vision of the humane GUI? [...] IMHO, Raskin has a few good points (like the notion that it's easier to hit something at the edge of the screen, and even easier to hit something in a corner), but is completely wrong on most others, such as his insistance that selecting a menu entry with the mouse is faster than pressing a function key, etc. I cringe every time I see a Mac user correct a typo by painstakingly selecting the last character he typed with the mouse before typing the correct character, instead of just using the backspace key (and if you thought that was a stupid thing to do on a PC, wait 'till you've tried in on a modern Mac with its slippery, microscopic mouse) > [...] I know > that he's written his thoughts/experience in his book, but why not > give us an implementation to show the uneducated masses his superior > methodology at work? He did - he designed the original MacOS GUI. His opinion of MacOS X is probably more than slightly tainted by bitterness at having his baby replaced by somebody else's baby. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 17:18:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E249D37B400 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:18:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA07565 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:23:11 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:18:11 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Free BSD In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:35 PM 3/15/2002, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > [...] I know > > that he's written his thoughts/experience in his book, but why not > > give us an implementation to show the uneducated masses his superior > > methodology at work? > >He did - he designed the original MacOS GUI. His opinion of MacOS X >is probably more than slightly tainted by bitterness at having his >baby replaced by somebody else's baby. Yeah, I kinda figured there might be some sour grapes in there. But rather than bitch about the 70-some-odd "inhumane" window managers shipping with FreeBSD and Linux, he should create his own wm and throw it in--let the crowd decide what's what. Even if he created some nice skins for Windows XP or Mac OS X, I'd be interested to know how many people were satisfied with his one-bit monochrome GUI. And speaking of monochrome, I have to speak up for the eye-candy fanatics out there. Too often I see high-color graphics pooh-poohed as frivolous in serious computing tasks, but while it may not be essential to the task at hand it does add to the enjoyment some people get from using their systems. (I'm assuming that I'm not the only one who feels that way. And based on the number of pretty window managers out there, I'm sure I'm not.) I wasn't using FreeBSD for a good long time because Linux had a prettier default installation, but KDE2 brought me back. (And I still don't see what Opera has over Konqueror.) Yes, I would rather ride in the candy-coated, rimmed-up sports car. Yes, I'd rather talk to the pretty bank teller. Yes, I am shallow sometimes, but hey, life is short. ;-) << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 17:30:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A9CC37B419 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 81407 invoked by uid 100); 16 Mar 2002 01:30:33 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15506.41016.724233.691143@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:30:32 -0600 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Free BSD In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> References: <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com>, Chip Morton typed: > At 11:12 PM 3/14/2002, Dan Peck wrote: > >http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/16564.html > On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 at 16:00:23 Paul Beard wrote: > >Anyway, I count 79 window manager entries in /usr/ports/x11-wm on one of > >my FreeBSD boxes. Add to that the themes and skins that you can add, and > >there has to be something for just about everyone. KDE2 and fvwm have the > >Windows[tm] emulation thing down so starting with one of them might make sense. > I read Jef Raskin's comments, and even though I've heard this opinion > expressed before I don't understand them. If every window manager out > there has done it wrong, why doesn't Raskin put his money where his mouth > is and provide us with his vision of the humane GUI? I know that he's > written his thoughts/experience in his book, but why not give us an > implementation to show the uneducated masses his superior methodology at work? He has. That's what the Canon Cat was. If you find one for sale, let me know. I'd love to see it. > Furthermore, given that most GUIs have pretty much become standard in terms > of the placement and use of various widgets and window decorations, They have? I sure haven't noticed that. Unless by this you mean pure count, in which case most GUIs are Windows of some version. I haven't seen a Mac in a long time - does it frame windows the same way Windows does? > wouldn't radical changes to them essentially run counter to the > standardization that he argues is so beneficial? Yup. On the other hand, the pure waste of having the vast majority of people using such an inefficient window manager is heartbreaking to consider. > It's like the argument for Dvorak keyboards all over again; QWERTY > may not be as efficient, but got so accustomed to it that > displacing it became unlikely. That may well be why he hasn't done a version for a common platform. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 17:49:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E245C37B43C for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 83792 invoked by uid 100); 16 Mar 2002 01:49:17 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15506.42140.471560.868300@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:49:16 -0600 To: paul beard Cc: Bob Kovacs , Salvo Bartolotta , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Free BSD In-Reply-To: <3C928B17.5020300@mac.com> References: <1016219646.3c9247fe203dd@webmail.neomedia.it> <3C928B17.5020300@mac.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.49 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <3C928B17.5020300@mac.com>, paul beard typed: > f you want to add a > more hospitable UI, there are many options, all along the > performance/comfort curve, from black box or [ugh] twm to KDE and > Gnome. Come now, twm is a *long* way from that end of the curve. I'm not familiar with blackbox, but lwm has a much higher performance level than twm. There are a number of editors at the lwm level, the catch being that most of the are configured with gcc. Things don't stop there, though. ratpoison goes a couple of steps further. plpwm - part of the plwm port - is about even with ratpoison, but much more configurable than even twm. It's also my window manager of choice, but I wrote it, so that's a given. > Anyway, I count 79 window manager entries in /usr/ports/x11-wm on > one of my FreeBSD boxes. Add to that the themes and skins that you > can add, and there has to be something for just about everyone. > KDE2 and fvwm have the Windows[tm] emulation thing down so > starting with one of them might make sense. Last time I looked, there were Windows emulators for several flavors of Windows, a Mac emulator, and an Amiga emulator. There are probably others as well. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 17:56: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0908137B416 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:56:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0278.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.23] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16m3QL-000480-00; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:55:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3C92A60D.F7AD3CC8@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:55:25 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Free BSD References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: [ Jef Raskin ] > Yeah, I kinda figured there might be some sour grapes in there. But rather > than bitch about the 70-some-odd "inhumane" window managers shipping with > FreeBSD and Linux, he should create his own wm and throw it in--let the > crowd decide what's what. Even if he created some nice skins for Windows > XP or Mac OS X, I'd be interested to know how many people were satisfied > with his one-bit monochrome GUI. You clearly didn't read the article... your suggestions fail because in it he complains about all the things you ask for here. I'll paraphrase (these are not actual phrase quotes, they are my interpretation of his meaning): 1) "Skins are EVIL". 2) "Preferences are EVIL". 3) "You have to build the entire system to support the UI, not just throw a UI onto a system" (i.e. a "wm" is not an option). 4) If you want to help him do the right thing, you are supposed to contact him via email. 5) "Monochrome is good; busy is bad; imagine a background picture that looked like abunch of open applications". > And speaking of monochrome, I have to speak up for the eye-candy fanatics > out there. Too often I see high-color graphics pooh-poohed as frivolous in > serious computing tasks, but while it may not be essential to the task at > hand it does add to the enjoyment some people get from using their > systems. (I'm assuming that I'm not the only one who feels that way. And > based on the number of pretty window managers out there, I'm sure I'm > not.) I wasn't using FreeBSD for a good long time because Linux had a > prettier default installation, but KDE2 brought me back. (And I still > don't see what Opera has over Konqueror.) Yes, I would rather ride in the > candy-coated, rimmed-up sports car. Yes, I'd rather talk to the pretty > bank teller. Yes, I am shallow sometimes, but hey, life is short. ;-) 6) "Eye candy is EVIL because it damages consistency; it is important that training on applications on one machine be transportable to another machine running the same application". 7) "If the uer's attention is on the interface, then it detracts from there ability to perform th task for which the tool [the computer] was obtained". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 18: 8:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864FA37B416 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2G24rW96983; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:04:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:04:53 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Robert Shea Cc: Darren Reed , "Dr. Evil" , inemes@transylvania.com.au, jylefort@brutele.be, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Security: FreeBSD vs OpenBSD Message-ID: <20020315180453.D93644@rain.macguire.net> References: <20020315162741.C93644@rain.macguire.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from robert.shea@appliedinterconnect.com on Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 04:56:35PM -0800 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Robert Shea (robert.shea@appliedinterconnect.com) [020315 16:58]: > > "The evaluated configuration for Windows NT 4.0 Service Pack 6a with the > C2 Update includes any number of the Windows NT Server and/or the > Windows NT Workstation products, acting in any one of the following > roles, either stand-alone or connected via a physically protected > network consisting of zero or more Windows NT domains: > Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 Server product > . Primary Domain Controller (PDC); > . Backup Domain Controller (BDC); > . Non-Domain Controller (domain member); and > . Non-Domain Controller (non-domain member). > Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 Workstation product > . Domain member; and > . Non-domain member." This is lovely. However their tests excluded Posix, Streams, RAS, DHCP, NetBEUI, AppleTalk, and IPX. Also not evaluated are any processors except the Intel Pentium Pro and the Intel Pentium II on a limited subset of Compaq hardware offerings. A limited subset of the things which many NT shops use today. > -FINAL EVALUATION REPORT > Microsoft Corporation > Windows NT Workstation and Server > Version 4.0, Service Pack 6a > http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/tpep/library/fers/TTAP-CSC-FER-99-001.pdf > (page 15) > > and as far as it being current goes? well the latest evaluation was > completed on 11-99, considering how long it takes for an evaluation to > be completed, I assume we will see one for Win2k late this year/early > next. As an informal evaluation will tell you that Win2k effectively > meets the C2 TCSEC. According to your PDF, evaluation for NT4 sp6 began in July of 1998, and was completed in 1999. Win2k came out in 1999. It is now 2002. Care to explain the 2 year delay? > And other products Microsoft makes? MS-SQL Server 8.0 also received the > C2 rating on August 2000, but I am sure it had it's networking guts > removed as well. ;) > I never said worship the guide, in fact many fine systems like Argus' > DBAC, SELinux's Flask, YGuard, and AITS's inherited RBAC are not covered > by DOD-5200.28-STD, yet are all fine systems. The Orange book is flawed > in many ways for mainstream operating systems, it's over reliance on the > Bell-La Padula security model, while reasonable effective from a > security model is both incomplete and difficult to implement by anyone > other then experts, (a bad quality in an OS aimed at the general > public.) > "Security is not defined by adhering to rules laid out in a book. > Security is not a product you can sell. > Security does not come in a box wrapped up in bows." > > Security is verifiable not voodoo magick pedaled by "experts" This makes no sense. Would you care to clarify? There is a bottom line here. The bottom line is that the Orange book is an excellent guide. Being c2 certified is a tribute to good design. NT has a well designed and thought out security system. Thats lovely! Enter reality. NT has problems in the code. NT has problems in supported applications. How many IIS holes have there been? Software shipped with default full access passwords? Buffer overflows? Software that ships with insecure configuration errors? I'll say it again because repetition is an excellent way to teach those who learn in a Gestalt manner: Security is a process. Your C2 is just a base, not a measure of how secure something is. -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 18:44:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED98E37B400 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:44:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g2G2hpx00259; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 03:43:51 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C928B17.5020300@mac.com> References: <1016219646.3c9247fe203dd@webmail.neomedia.it> <3C928B17.5020300@mac.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 03:40:53 +0100 To: paul beard , Bob Kovacs From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Free BSD Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:00 PM -0800 2002/03/15, paul beard wrote: > I think you're right about that, but it's hard to believe 128 Mb > is insufficient for a desktop/client UI. How did Apple get away > with their (admittedly simple ) UI in 1 Mb on the old all-in-one > toasters? And come to that, I have 384 Mb in a 350 MHz G3 and OS > X is still less than zippy, where OS 9 fairly flies by comparison. That's like asking how did old mainframes with 8KB of core memory function? For the original 128K Mac, the answer is that all the core GUI stuff was written manually in hand-assembled and extremely highly optimized assembly, in order to cram it all in. The ROMs have gotten progressively bigger over the years, and with MacOS 9 you really want 64MB or even 128MB in order to function minimally well. Of course, MacOS X (with a Mach micro-kernel and *BSD userland) requires an absolute minimum of 128KB, and is much happier with at least 256MB. IMO, Aqua is a quantum leap forward in terms of the kind of control it gives you over the display, but you really, really pay for it. On my PowerBook G3 Pismo (400Mhz), with 1GB of RAM and a 48GB IBM Travelstar hard drive, running MacOS X 10.1.3, here's the rundown for the top ten processes, sorted by virtual size (measured in KB): % ps -auxww | sort -nr +4 | head blk 358 0.0 1.3 1122720 14008 ?? S 46:35.82 /System/Library/CoreServices/Classic Startup.app/Contents/Resources/TruBlueEnvironment blk 18409 0.0 1.7 297812 17560 ?? S 6:04.56 /System/Library/CoreServices/Finder.app/Contents/MacOS/Finder -psn_0_23592961 blk 9229 0.0 3.0 156440 30972 ?? S 314:17.90 /Applications/Eudora/Eudora 5.1b21/Eudora 5.1 (OS X) /Applications/Eudora/Eudora 5.1b21/Eudora 5.1 (OS X) -psn_0_3932161 blk 20407 0.7 4.5 154700 47084 ?? S 13:26.59 /Applications/Web Browsers/Opera/Opera 5.0b3.465.Cbn/Opera.app/Contents/MacOS/Opera 5.0 PPC /Applications/Web Browsers/Opera/Opera 5.0b3.465.Cbn/Opera.app/Contents/MacOS/Opera 5.0 PPC -psn_0_27525121 blk 353 3.6 0.2 91324 2104 ?? S 124:44.37 /System/Library/CoreServices/SystemUIServer.app/Contents/MacOS/SystemUIServer -psn_0_524289 blk 372 0.0 0.1 88984 748 ?? S 0:03.20 /System/Library/CoreServices/SecurityAgent.app/Contents/MacOS/SecurityAgent blk 356 0.0 0.1 88316 1056 ?? S 0:02.75 /Users/blk/Library/PreferencePanes/WindowShade X.prefPane/Contents/Resources/WindowShade X.app/Contents/MacOS/WindowShade X -psn_0_917505 blk 352 0.0 0.3 86452 3304 ?? S 303:43.26 /System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/MacOS/Dock -psn_0_393217 blk 357 0.0 0.1 84972 844 ?? S 16:53.90 /Users/blk/Library/PreferencePanes/FruitMenu.prefPane/Contents/Resources/FruitMenu Daemon.app/Contents/MacOS/FruitMenu Daemon -psn_0_1048577 root 18423 0.0 0.1 83080 992 std- S 149:16.78 /Applications/XDarwin.app/Contents/MacOS/XDarwin -quartz -nostartx Note that XDarwin is the last process on this list, taking up "only" 83MB of virtual memory. If you look at things sorted by RSS, you have to go down to slot #15 to find XDarwin: % ps -auxww | sort -nr +5 | head -n 15 blk 20407 0.3 4.5 154700 47084 ?? S 13:33.89 /Applications/Web Browsers/Opera/Opera 5.0b3.465.Cbn/Opera.app/Contents/MacOS/Opera 5.0 PPC /Applications/Web Browsers/Opera/Opera 5.0b3.465.Cbn/Opera.app/Contents/MacOS/Opera 5.0 PPC -psn_0_27525121 blk 70 2.5 3.0 74752 31944 ?? Ss 303:04.00 /System/Library/CoreServices/WindowServer blk 9229 0.0 3.0 156476 31028 ?? S 314:58.00 /Applications/Eudora/Eudora 5.1b21/Eudora 5.1 (OS X) /Applications/Eudora/Eudora 5.1b21/Eudora 5.1 (OS X) -psn_0_3932161 blk 18409 0.0 1.7 297812 17560 ?? S 6:04.56 /System/Library/CoreServices/Finder.app/Contents/MacOS/Finder -psn_0_23592961 blk 358 0.0 1.3 1122720 14008 ?? S 46:35.82 /System/Library/CoreServices/Classic Startup.app/Contents/Resources/TruBlueEnvironment root 243 0.0 0.6 27340 6504 ?? Ss 0:02.74 /usr/libexec/CrashReporter blk 20598 7.3 0.6 67232 6276 ?? S 0:09.96 /Applications/Utilities/Terminal.app/Contents/MacOS/Terminal -psn_0_27656193 blk 20168 0.0 0.6 63248 5920 ?? S 0:27.76 /Applications/Sherlock.app/Contents/MacOS/Sherlock -psn_0_27000833 blk 19490 0.0 0.4 64776 4156 ?? S 0:06.23 /Applications/Utilities/Console.app/Contents/MacOS/Console -psn_0_25034753 blk 344 0.0 0.4 78988 3680 ?? Ss 0:27.92 /System/Library/CoreServices/loginwindow.app/loginwindow console blk 352 0.0 0.3 86452 3304 ?? S 303:43.27 /System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/MacOS/Dock -psn_0_393217 blk 68 0.0 0.3 60036 3288 ?? Ss 0:55.00 /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ATS.framework/Versions/A/Support/ATSServer blk 353 0.9 0.2 91324 2104 ?? S 124:47.57 /System/Library/CoreServices/SystemUIServer.app/Contents/MacOS/SystemUIServer -psn_0_524289 blk 356 0.0 0.1 88316 1056 ?? S 0:02.75 /Users/blk/Library/PreferencePanes/WindowShade X.prefPane/Contents/Resources/WindowShade X.app/Contents/MacOS/WindowShade X -psn_0_917505 root 18423 0.0 0.1 83080 992 std- S 149:16.78 /Applications/XDarwin.app/Contents/MacOS/XDarwin -quartz -nostartx Finally, here's what "top" shows for the first six lines: Processes: 45 total, 3 running, 42 sleeping... 132 threads 03:39:08 Load Avg: 0.33, 0.08, 0.03 CPU usage: 6.2% user, 21.9% sys, 71.9% idle SharedLibs: num = 119, resident = 17.3M code, 1.24M data, 4.73M LinkEdit MemRegions: num = 10135, resident = 120M + 4.81M private, 51.4M shared PhysMem: 79.8M wired, 96.4M active, 137M inactive, 313M used, 711M free VM: 3.25G + 53.5M 323757(0) pageins, 430668(0) pageouts You think needing 384MB for FreeBSD is bad? By my calculations, I'd need 2.7GB of RAM if I had to hold everything in RAM that currently has virtual memory assigned to it, and I need at least 183MB just for the RSS of all my currently running program -- and I really don't have that much going. At least you have the option of running X without it being layered on top of something like Aqua. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 22:13:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080D737B400 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 22:13:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([12.231.115.57]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020316061318.PFHD2951.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@mac.com>; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 06:13:18 +0000 Message-ID: <3C92E233.6050807@mac.com> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 22:12:03 -0800 From: paul beard User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; NetBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020209 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Bob Kovacs , Salvo Bartolotta , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Free BSD References: <1016219646.3c9247fe203dd@webmail.neomedia.it> <3C928B17.5020300@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 4:00 PM -0800 2002/03/15, paul beard wrote: > >> I think you're right about that, but it's hard to believe 128 Mb >> is insufficient for a desktop/client UI. How did Apple get away >> with their (admittedly simple ) UI in 1 Mb on the old all-in-one >> toasters? And come to that, I have 384 Mb in a 350 MHz G3 and OS >> X is still less than zippy, where OS 9 fairly flies by comparison. > > > That's like asking how did old mainframes with 8KB of core memory > function? They rarely ran KDE2, I'm sure ;-) > You think needing 384MB for FreeBSD is bad? By my calculations, I'd > need 2.7GB of RAM if I had to hold everything in RAM that currently has > virtual memory assigned to it, and I need at least 183MB just for the > RSS of all my currently running program -- and I really don't have that > much going. At least you have the option of running X without it being > layered on top of something like Aqua. > Thanks for the details.Here's a tangent on that: I have no idea what happens every hour on my OS X box, but it seems to spend a lot of cycles doing nothing, more so than the FreeBSD boxes I have. contrast pink (the G3 running OS X) http://www.mindspring.com/~pkdb/pdb/mrtg/pink/pink-load.html with red (a Athlon 700 with 256 Mb RAM) http://www.mindspring.com/~pkdb/pdb/mrtg/red/red-load.html or blue (a PII 233 with 64 Mb) http://www.mindspring.com/~pkdb/pdb/mrtg/blue/blue-load.html No one is sitting at it, it's just idling . . . . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 7: 0:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E0E37B495 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 06:59:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5DD9C3FC51; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:59:15 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:59:15 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Free BSD Message-ID: <20020316155915.A44078@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 07:18:11PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 07:18:11PM -0600, Chip Morton wrote: > FreeBSD and Linux, he should create his own wm and throw it in--let the= =20 > crowd decide what's what. Even if he created some nice skins for Windows= =20 Why would he did so? We already have twm, there's no need for anything else :-) Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8k13CnLctrNyFFPERAixkAJ9pWIpw+W7dciVzS2y2/aB+LqSsFgCgsR9F gXsbPZQvbVTTpwx1HIXnePA= =1CIx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 8:37:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC8F37B422 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 08:33:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24989 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 11:37:58 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316093213.01a88880@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 09:34:30 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Free BSD In-Reply-To: <20020316155915.A44078@energyhq.homeip.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:59 AM 3/16/2002, Miguel Mendez wrote: >Why would he did so? We already have twm, there's no need for anything >else :-) Hey, did I mention that I wanted eye candy? I'm looking for Skittles and Reeses, and you're trying to hand me some generic drug store sugar-free hard candy. :-p << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 8:37:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6571B37B41D for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 08:33:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24999 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 11:37:59 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:32:14 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Free BSD In-Reply-To: <3C92A60D.F7AD3CC8@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:55 PM 3/15/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >Chip Morton wrote: >[ Jef Raskin ] > > Yeah, I kinda figured there might be some sour grapes in there. But rather > > than bitch about the 70-some-odd "inhumane" window managers shipping with > > FreeBSD and Linux, he should create his own wm and throw it in--let the > > crowd decide what's what. Even if he created some nice skins for Windows > > XP or Mac OS X, I'd be interested to know how many people were satisfied > > with his one-bit monochrome GUI. > >You clearly didn't read the article... your suggestions >fail because in it he complains about all the things you >ask for here. I'll paraphrase (these are not actual phrase >quotes, they are my interpretation of his meaning): Oh I read the article, all right. And I disagree with most of it. And the only thing that I've "suggested" here is that he ante up and actually *implement* some of his ideas. I really take issue with his blanket assertion that (paraphrasing here) "All windowing systems/GUIs are screwed up, and I could do it so much better--but I won't." And let's be real here about the rest of your/Raskin's points. All windowing systems with significant market share operate under a de facto standard. Regardless of whether you think that standard is the best or not, most people use WMs that are functionally very similar. And switching from one to the other doesn't require a degree in astrophysics to figure out. Now if Raskin wants to change that de facto standard, he's essentially going *against* the standardization that he argues for. The standardization of the interface is essentially done. Let's leave it be and move on to bigger issues. I read an article in which an engineer at one of the major American car manufacturers said that response time could be improved by placing braking/acceleration controls on the steering wheel. He argued that the time required for the driver to move his feet was significant in decisions requiring split-second responses. But you know how many car makers were interested in adopting his idea? Zero! Because nobody wants to relearn how to use his hands rather than his feet to drive the car. I sure wouldn't rent/buy one. The point is that once the population at large has settled on a particular method--whether through conscious decision-making or lack thereof--getting them all to switch to another method, even a better one, is damn near impossible. Believe me that if the music industry hadn't shoved CDs down our collective throats, some of us would still be listening to cassette tapes or 8-tracks. [More points made below] >1) "Skins are EVIL". > >2) "Preferences are EVIL". > >3) "You have to build the entire system to support the > UI, not just throw a UI onto a system" (i.e. a "wm" > is not an option). > >4) If you want to help him do the right thing, you are > supposed to contact him via email. > >5) "Monochrome is good; busy is bad; imagine a background > picture that looked like abunch of open applications". > > > > And speaking of monochrome, I have to speak up for the eye-candy fanatics > > out there. Too often I see high-color graphics pooh-poohed as frivolous in > > serious computing tasks, but while it may not be essential to the task at > > hand it does add to the enjoyment some people get from using their > > systems. (I'm assuming that I'm not the only one who feels that way. And > > based on the number of pretty window managers out there, I'm sure I'm > > not.) I wasn't using FreeBSD for a good long time because Linux had a > > prettier default installation, but KDE2 brought me back. (And I still > > don't see what Opera has over Konqueror.) Yes, I would rather ride in the > > candy-coated, rimmed-up sports car. Yes, I'd rather talk to the pretty > > bank teller. Yes, I am shallow sometimes, but hey, life is short. ;-) > >6) "Eye candy is EVIL because it damages consistency; it > is important that training on applications on one > machine be transportable to another machine running > the same application". > >7) "If the uer's attention is on the interface, then it > detracts from there ability to perform th task for > which the tool [the computer] was obtained". The actual look of a window manager (or car, or woman, or anything else) only matters very early up front. You may be wowed by the look of the windows and widgets early on, but after that it really doesn't matter to you while you're working. Sure, I don't like the look of twm, but I would be no more/less productive by using it. In fact, I might argue that the pleasure I get out of having an attractive, colorful windowing system with my girlfriend on the wallpaper would actually make me more productive on the whole. Productivity isn't just about the milliseconds saved in dragging the mouse from one corner to the next. I really think that the shortcomings in Raskin's arguments become apparent when he mentions the ridiculous prospect of using a wallpaper that looks like open windows. Who the hell would do something that stupid? Besides him, I guess. Because frankly, I think that he deserved to get his ass beat for changing somebody's color scheme to red on red and forcing them to have to reinstall it. If that's his best argument for why we don't need color in the GUI, then I rest my case. Like I said, he can develop his 1-bit WM and then he can have it. << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 8:50:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D77EE37B416 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 08:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 6E1AC5347; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:50:18 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Free BSD References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Mar 2002 17:50:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton writes: > Like I said, he can develop his 1-bit WM and then he can have it. Ever seen a Mac prior to OS X? Ever wondered who designed the GUI? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 9: 0:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE7F37B402 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 09:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA30376 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:04:49 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316105413.019e6df0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:59:27 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Free BSD In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:50 AM 3/16/2002, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Ever seen a Mac prior to OS X? Ever wondered who designed the GUI? Yeah, I've passed by a couple of MacOS displays before. It's clean-looking, but it doesn't exactly make me envious as I use my Windows/KDE/Gnome displays. It does the job it needs to. Whether it's attractive or not is a matter of personal preference. But I note two things about the Classic MacOS GUI: - Aesthetics aside, it still operates much like most other GUIs. - Apple isn't using it any more. << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 9: 3: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 12CC837B416 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 09:02:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 36137 invoked by uid 100); 16 Mar 2002 17:02:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15507.31402.448552.648331@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 11:02:34 -0600 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Free BSD In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.49 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com>, Chip Morton typed: > At 07:55 PM 3/15/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Oh I read the article, all right. And I disagree with most of it. And the > only thing that I've "suggested" here is that he ante up and actually > *implement* some of his ideas. I really take issue with his blanket > assertion that (paraphrasing here) "All windowing systems/GUIs are screwed > up, and I could do it so much better--but I won't." Read his book then. He did. > Now if Raskin wants to change that de facto standard, he's essentially > going *against* the standardization that he argues for. The > standardization of the interface is essentially done. Let's leave it be > and move on to bigger issues. Leaving the steaming heap that Apple/MS has foisted off on us as an interface is the worst idea I've seen since the last time I talked to an MS support rep (~1982). Of all the behavior models for windowing systems that I know of, that's the least efficient one. > I read an article in which an engineer at one of the major American car > manufacturers said that response time could be improved by placing > braking/acceleration controls on the steering wheel. He argued that the > time required for the driver to move his feet was significant in decisions > requiring split-second responses. But you know how many car makers were > interested in adopting his idea? Zero! Because nobody wants to relearn > how to use his hands rather than his feet to drive the car. I sure > wouldn't rent/buy one. Most major manufacturers put an acceleration control on the steering wheel, at least for their high end cars. I'm pretty sure one of the F1 teams did the same. > The point is that once the population at large has settled on a particular > method--whether through conscious decision-making or lack thereof--getting > them all to switch to another method, even a better one, is damn near > impossible. Believe me that if the music industry hadn't shoved CDs down > our collective throats, some of us would still be listening to cassette > tapes or 8-tracks. "Shoved down our throats"? You mean, like DVDs are being shoved down our throats, and like DIVX was shoved down our throats? I don't know about you, but the first time I heard a CD player, *I* wanted one. I waited until I found one that could pass a blind A/B test against a thousand dollar turntable before I got rid of my turntable, but nobody forced people to buy CDs instead of cassettes. The rule for this stuff is very simple: to get the public to change, it has to be perceived to be at least an order of magnitude better for the same price. CDs pretty clearly qualified: they sounded better(*), they were more damage resistant, and they could be played in the car. DVDs, ditto. They look better(*), they are wear better, and they offer lots extra features that people seem to like. DIVX, not ditto. It was DVD, only with a sucky pricing structure and requiring a new player. Unfortunately, while the steaming heap of a GUI most people use is indeed the least efficient, it's at worst a factor of two worse, not a factor of 10. So the only way it's going to get changed is if MS manages to shove it down our throats. Having monopoly power, they can do that. > The actual look of a window manager (or car, or woman, or anything else) > only matters very early up front. You may be wowed by the look of the > windows and widgets early on, but after that it really doesn't matter to > you while you're working. Actually, it does matter. If you notice them, then you're not working. That's why the look matters. Being wow'ed early on is usually a bad sign, not a good one. > Sure, I don't like the look of twm, but I would > be no more/less productive by using it. That depends on what you're using now. If it's the MS/Apple stuff, then using a properly configured twm would be about 5% more efficient - meaning it takes about 5% less time to do things with it than the MS/Apple stuff. That should translate into more productivity. > In fact, I might argue that the pleasure I get out of having an > attractive, colorful windowing system with my girlfriend on the > wallpaper would actually make me more productive on the whole. > Productivity isn't just about the milliseconds saved in dragging the > mouse from one corner to the next. True enough. But since you can do that with almost any GUI, it's sort of irrelevant. > Like I said, he can develop his 1-bit WM and then he can have it. He already did, and he already does. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 10: 8:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A4C837B405 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:08:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10564 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:13:17 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316112644.01b11558@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:08:11 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: The Great GUI Debate (was Re: Free BSD) In-Reply-To: <15507.31402.448552.648331@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:02 AM 3/16/2002, Mike Meyer wrote: >Leaving the steaming heap that Apple/MS has foisted off on us as an >interface is the worst idea I've seen since the last time I talked to >an MS support rep (~1982). > >Of all the behavior models for windowing systems that I know of, >that's the least efficient one. Look, if you or Lambert or Raskin or anybody else think that you have a better idea, then have at it. If you build a mousetrap that is truly better than the one we use now, then I'm sure the world will quickly beat a path to your doorstep. >Most major manufacturers put an acceleration control on the steering >wheel, at least for their high end cars. I'm pretty sure one of the F1 >teams did the same. I can't afford high-end cars, and neither can most folks. But I don't believe it's not done because it's a "high-end" concept; I believe it's not done because the benefits are outweighed by other negative factors, notably the "re-learning curve." >"Shoved down our throats"? You mean, like DVDs are being shoved down >our throats, and like DIVX was shoved down our throats? > >I don't know about you, but the first time I heard a CD player, *I* >wanted one. I waited until I found one that could pass a blind A/B >test against a thousand dollar turntable before I got rid of my >turntable, but nobody forced people to buy CDs instead of cassettes. > >The rule for this stuff is very simple: to get the public to change, >it has to be perceived to be at least an order of magnitude better for >the same price. > >CDs pretty clearly qualified: they sounded better(*), they were more >damage resistant, and they could be played in the car. > >DVDs, ditto. They look better(*), they are wear better, and they offer >lots extra features that people seem to like. > >DIVX, not ditto. It was DVD, only with a sucky pricing structure and >requiring a new player. Well, real-time recording onto CDs and DVDs is still a dream here in America, so for my use, CDs/DVDs aren't so clearly better than casettes and VHS videotapes. And this denies that there have been other comparable form factors that the industry didn't push as eagerly--MDs, DATs, and laserdiscs come to mind quickly. I think the issue for the music industry is less about the quality of our listening experience than about content control. >Unfortunately, while the steaming heap of a GUI most people use is >indeed the least efficient, it's at worst a factor of two worse, not a >factor of 10. So the only way it's going to get changed is if MS >manages to shove it down our throats. Having monopoly power, they can >do that. And I think this is the crucial point here. Raskin's ideas may be better, but are they so much better that the masses will be willing to switch? I don't think so. Even if I spend a whole hour per day doing window operations, my savings is three minutes per day. But now I hate using my computer. So where's the gain? And how much time did I waste trying to learn this new, improved way of doing things. > > The actual look of a window manager (or car, or woman, or anything else) > > only matters very early up front. You may be wowed by the look of the > > windows and widgets early on, but after that it really doesn't matter to > > you while you're working. > >Actually, it does matter. If you notice them, then you're not >working. That's why the look matters. Being wow'ed early on is usually >a bad sign, not a good one. Again I disagree. Over a long period of time, people will get used to whatever shiny baubles they were impressed with early on. My candy-colored scrollbars don't make me any more/less efficient than if I had a simple two-color scrollbar. I don't pay them any attention any more until I have to scroll something. And if you're NOT using the system for a long time, then the efficiency gained from changing things isn't worth the time it would take to relearn them. > > Sure, I don't like the look of twm, but I would > > be no more/less productive by using it. > >That depends on what you're using now. If it's the MS/Apple stuff, >then using a properly configured twm would be about 5% more efficient >- meaning it takes about 5% less time to do things with it than the >MS/Apple stuff. That should translate into more productivity. > > > > In fact, I might argue that the pleasure I get out of having an > > attractive, colorful windowing system with my girlfriend on the > > wallpaper would actually make me more productive on the whole. > > Productivity isn't just about the milliseconds saved in dragging the > > mouse from one corner to the next. > >True enough. But since you can do that with almost any GUI, it's sort >of irrelevant. It's not irrelevant because you and Raskin just argued that these sort of amenities detract from my productivity. The problem I see with this argument is that it tries to measure human productivity in machine cycles. My saving five minutes per day in improved productivity may be pointless if I hate using my ugly window manager. The benefits here are not without a cost. > > Like I said, he can develop his 1-bit WM and then he can have it. > >He already did, and he already does. Then he should be happy and stay off happy users' screens. > >*) I know the sound/looks point is arguable, but compare them on the >kinds of A/V system your average consumer has, *not* the kind that >someone who'd lay out a grand for a turntable has. Under those >conditions, CD/DVD clearly has better quality. > >-- >Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ >Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 10:35:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A0C2A37B405 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:35:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 37785 invoked by uid 100); 16 Mar 2002 18:35:44 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15507.36992.94921.650074@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:35:44 -0600 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The Great GUI Debate (was Re: Free BSD) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316112644.01b11558@threespace.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316112644.01b11558@threespace.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.49 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <4.3.2.7.2.20020316112644.01b11558@threespace.com>, Chip Morton typed: > At 11:02 AM 3/16/2002, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Leaving the steaming heap that Apple/MS has foisted off on us as an > >interface is the worst idea I've seen since the last time I talked to > >an MS support rep (~1982). > >Of all the behavior models for windowing systems that I know of, > >that's the least efficient one. > Look, if you or Lambert or Raskin or anybody else think that you have a > better idea, then have at it. If you build a mousetrap that is truly > better than the one we use now, then I'm sure the world will quickly beat a > path to your doorstep. Mine's plpwm. It's part of the plwm port. > >Most major manufacturers put an acceleration control on the steering > >wheel, at least for their high end cars. I'm pretty sure one of the F1 > >teams did the same. > I can't afford high-end cars, and neither can most folks. But I don't > believe it's not done because it's a "high-end" concept; I believe it's not > done because the benefits are outweighed by other negative factors, notably > the "re-learning curve." No, it's a luxury item. > Well, real-time recording onto CDs and DVDs is still a dream here in > America, so for my use, CDs/DVDs aren't so clearly better than casettes and > VHS videotapes. And this denies that there have been other comparable form > factors that the industry didn't push as eagerly--MDs, DATs, and laserdiscs > come to mind quickly. I think the issue for the music industry is less > about the quality of our listening experience than about content control. The people I know who were serious about real-time recording moved to either DAT or mini-disks a long time ago. Then again, most of them have since give those up, and do real-time capture to disk, edit and mix on the computer, then burn the CD. > >Unfortunately, while the steaming heap of a GUI most people use is > >indeed the least efficient, it's at worst a factor of two worse, not a > >factor of 10. So the only way it's going to get changed is if MS > >manages to shove it down our throats. Having monopoly power, they can > >do that. > And I think this is the crucial point here. Raskin's ideas may be better, > but are they so much better that the masses will be willing to switch? I > don't think so. Even if I spend a whole hour per day doing window > operations, my savings is three minutes per day. But now I hate using my > computer. So where's the gain? And how much time did I waste trying to > learn this new, improved way of doing things. Why are you assuming that you'd hate Raskin - or my - way of doing things? Personally, I hate the MS/Apple GUI way of doing things. I even invented a benchmark for windowing systems quality. It's called "curses", and takes into account the quality of the interface and the responsiveness of the underlying hardware. All it is is a measure of profanity over time. So with Windows, my curses benchmark is about 4 per hour. With plpwm - hmmm - I can't establish a benchmark, because I haven't cursed at it in the three months I've been using it. With Intution, or a properly configure twm on a fast machine, it was about 1 per 8 hours. > > > The actual look of a window manager (or car, or woman, or anything else) > > > only matters very early up front. You may be wowed by the look of the > > > windows and widgets early on, but after that it really doesn't matter to > > > you while you're working. > >Actually, it does matter. If you notice them, then you're not > >working. That's why the look matters. Being wow'ed early on is usually > >a bad sign, not a good one. > Again I disagree. Over a long period of time, people will get used to > whatever shiny baubles they were impressed with early on. My candy-colored > scrollbars don't make me any more/less efficient than if I had a simple > two-color scrollbar. I don't pay them any attention any more until I have > to scroll something. In this case, we just have to agree to disagree. I remember to many people being *very* happy when the Amiga lost it's "halloween" color scheme as the default. > And if you're NOT using the system for a long time, then the efficiency > gained from changing things isn't worth the time it would take to relearn them. True. The problem is that the current system was designed for people who spent 10 or 15 minutes a day using a computer. How many people who work in an office spend anywhere near that little on a computer? How many people reading this spend that little time on email? > > > In fact, I might argue that the pleasure I get out of having an > > > attractive, colorful windowing system with my girlfriend on the > > > wallpaper would actually make me more productive on the whole. > > > Productivity isn't just about the milliseconds saved in dragging the > > > mouse from one corner to the next. > >True enough. But since you can do that with almost any GUI, it's sort > >of irrelevant. > It's not irrelevant because you and Raskin just argued that these sort of > amenities detract from my productivity. I never argued that point. While I agree with Raskin in the large about common interfaces - they suck rocks - I don't necessarily agree with him on the details. In particular, having a background image is pretty much a nop. > The problem I see with this argument is that it tries to measure human > productivity in machine cycles. My saving five minutes per day in improved > productivity may be pointless if I hate using my ugly window manager. The > benefits here are not without a cost. No, it doesn't. It measures human productivity in terms of human time. Personally, I don't care if you want to lug 3d-bricks across your girlfriends carcass while you work. I believe you should be allowed to do that. In fact, one of the things that sucks about the common interfaces is that all they let you change are the trivial things like the looks, but not any of the important things that would actually make them more efficient, not just glitzier. > > > Like I said, he can develop his 1-bit WM and then he can have it. > >He already did, and he already does. > Then he should be happy and stay off happy users' screens. He can't keep you from reading his articles on the web. If you don't like them, don't read them. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 11:23:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D8A5137B400 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 11:23:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 041256192 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:22:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C939AF5.4FB5DA19@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 11:20:21 -0800 From: rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Linux with a ports collection Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was thinking that that would be the perfect linux distribution last night after trying to get Windowmaker on Mandrake identical to that on my FreeBSD partition. I took me an hour to find rpms, compile stuff from sources, etc. I wonder how hard that would be? I don't want to be too hard on Mandrake since it does seem to have some nice features, but having a ports collection would be so cool, and so much easier for novice users. Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 11:37:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39A2B37B420 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 11:37:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27898 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:41:39 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316131434.01b22178@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:35:45 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: The Great GUI Debate (was Re: Free BSD) In-Reply-To: <15507.36992.94921.650074@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316112644.01b11558@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316112644.01b11558@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:35 PM 3/16/2002, Mike Meyer wrote: >In <4.3.2.7.2.20020316112644.01b11558@threespace.com>, Chip Morton > typed: > > Look, if you or Lambert or Raskin or anybody else think that you have a > > better idea, then have at it. If you build a mousetrap that is truly > > better than the one we use now, then I'm sure the world will quickly > beat a > > path to your doorstep. > >Mine's plpwm. It's part of the plwm port. And I can respect that you decided to take things into your own hands and make improvements to your own workstation. But you haven't gone so far as to claim, "I'm right, and you're all wrong and stupid for using your inferior window managers." I'll probably check out plpwm one of these days, but if I decide to stick with KDE, I would hope that you wouldn't be calling me a moron who had relegated himself to sub-optimal productivity for the rest of his life. >The people I know who were serious about real-time recording moved to >either DAT or mini-disks a long time ago. Then again, most of them >have since give those up, and do real-time capture to disk, edit and >mix on the computer, then burn the CD. I use MDs for my real-time recording, but I still usually have to move the results to CD if I want to share the results with anybody or be able to truly play it anywhere. These extra steps don't improve the product, they just allow much wider distribution. If the music industry hadn't decided to fight recordable digital formats (as they continue to do even with widely available CD-R technology), that might not be necessary. >Why are you assuming that you'd hate Raskin - or my - way of doing >things? Personally, I hate the MS/Apple GUI way of doing things. I'm not saying that I would hate it. What I hate is his peering down his nose at the rest of the computing world and telling us what morons we are for continuing to use these obviously inferior GUIs. In my view, it's a matter of personal preference and opinion, not an issue of right or wrong. And if efficiency isn't your holy grail, Raskin's ideas quickly lose clout. >In this case, we just have to agree to disagree. I remember to many >people being *very* happy when the Amiga lost it's "halloween" color >scheme as the default. I was happy too, but not because I became any more efficient. I was happy because the Halloween scheme was kinda ugly. :-) >Personally, I don't care if you want to lug 3d-bricks across your >girlfriends carcass while you work. I believe you should be allowed to >do that. I think I should be allowed to do it too, but until she's fully on board with the idea I'm just going to have to stick to more basic stuff. ;-) >In fact, one of the things that sucks about the common >interfaces is that all they let you change are the trivial things like >the looks, but not any of the important things that would actually >make them more efficient, not just glitzier. I agree with you about being able to do significant configurations rather than simple cosmetic ones. But again, if Raskin believes that a standard interface is essential for maintaining productivity levels across different computers used for similar tasks, then it stands to reason that giving you an interface that allowed you to move your widgets wherever you please would run counter to that goal. You can't have it both ways. Now I do agree that for an organization it is probably beneficial to enforce some of these standards. These computers aren't the property of the individuals; they belong to the organization. But some of us actually use our computers because we *enjoy* it, not because we have any particularly pressing task to accomplish. And I don't think my opinion is any less significant because I like my windows rendered in 24-bit color. > > Then he should be happy and stay off happy users' screens. > >He can't keep you from reading his articles on the web. If you don't >like them, don't read them. How can you know whether you like or dislike something before you read it? << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 13:12:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4E037B436 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.143.72.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.143.72] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16mLTD-0001Tr-00; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:12:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3C93B514.9AB4BB7E@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:11:48 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Free BSD References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: [ Jef Raskin ] > Oh I read the article, all right. And I disagree with most of it. And the > only thing that I've "suggested" here is that he ante up and actually > *implement* some of his ideas. I really take issue with his blanket > assertion that (paraphrasing here) "All windowing systems/GUIs are screwed > up, and I could do it so much better--but I won't." First of all, he specifically asked for programmers to contact him, as part of the article, so the "but I won't" doesn't hold water. Second, his design philosophy is that you build the interface, and the build the underlying system to support it. In this philosophy, it's impossible to glue a UI on an existing system and meet the design goal, unless you design the UI, and then go looking for a system that matches it and can be forced into supporting it, and/or build a new system from scratch. > And let's be real here about the rest of your/Raskin's points. All > windowing systems with significant market share operate under a de facto > standard. Regardless of whether you think that standard is the best or > not, most people use WMs that are functionally very similar. And switching > from one to the other doesn't require a degree in astrophysics to figure out. He specifically stated that the learning curve was not the porblem, it was the fact that the differences were in your face to the point that they required conscious acknowledgement in the decision making process. The point of interfaces is to abstract complexity, so that you can concentrate on tasks. Any time you concentrate on the interface itself, you detract from the attention that can be committed to the task. A good analogy here is the leaky vs. non-leak boat. If I am in a boat, and am there for the task of transportation, I concentrate on getting from point A to point B. On the other hand, if the boat has a slow leak, I am distracted from the task for which the boat was designed -- getting from one place to another -- and caught up with burning at least some of my time bailing water, rather than the task for which I'm using a boat in the first place. > Now if Raskin wants to change that de facto standard, he's essentially > going *against* the standardization that he argues for. The > standardization of the interface is essentially done. Let's leave it be > and move on to bigger issues. I guess this means you run Fvwm95, and every place it does not match the standard of Windows, you chip away at it until it more closely resembles Windows. Or this is your strawman argument, to argue against the merits of standardization, by implying that a bad standard is worse than no standard. The answer is that this is not true. A bad standard is in fact better than no standard. A standard, no matter how poor, means that I can save the training costs for a new employee, or that it's possible to hire a temporary worker, and have them be productive within the window of temporary need. I think Jef is arguing for good standards, more than poor standards, but primarily for standards over none. > I read an article in which an engineer at one of the major American car > manufacturers said that response time could be improved by placing > braking/acceleration controls on the steering wheel. He argued that the > time required for the driver to move his feet was significant in decisions > requiring split-second responses. But you know how many car makers were > interested in adopting his idea? Zero! Because nobody wants to relearn > how to use his hands rather than his feet to drive the car. I sure > wouldn't rent/buy one. THere are a couple of assumptions implicit in this example: 1) The engineer was right, not wrong 2) That improved response time is desirable 3) That it's impossible to implement dual controls 4) That the base cause was an unwillingness for people to relearn things #1 is an urban legend, without references #2 is arguable, from a safety standpoint (one has to wonder how many people go to step on peddles, only to reconsider before actually doing so, or how many accidents are caused because the car in front has anti-lock brakes, and the car behind has ordinary brakes) #3 is both an economic and a human factors issue; the cost of dual controls is going to be higher, but perhaps not very much so, if the controls are electronic, since a fly-by-wire system doesn't really care where the inputs to the wire are from, so floor and wheel controls become the cost of the switch components themselves. #4 could be completely wrong. It could be that humans are just hard-wired incorrectly to be able to deal with the controls on the whel. We don't know *what* process was behind the decision... assuming there even was one, and we aren't talking urban legend, here. > The point is that once the population at large has settled on a particular > method--whether through conscious decision-making or lack thereof--getting > them all to switch to another method, even a better one, is damn near > impossible. Believe me that if the music industry hadn't shoved CDs down > our collective throats, some of us would still be listening to cassette > tapes or 8-tracks. I guess that explains why most of the world, besides the US, hasn't been able to switch to MKS units? Or why the Euro never happened? There are tons of counter examples. Frankly, the idea that a switch can't occur is wrong in so many ways, it's hard to pick only a few of them to list. > The actual look of a window manager (or car, or woman, or anything else) > only matters very early up front. You may be wowed by the look of the > windows and widgets early on, but after that it really doesn't matter to > you while you're working. Sure, I don't like the look of twm, but I would > be no more/less productive by using it. In fact, I might argue that the > pleasure I get out of having an attractive, colorful windowing system with > my girlfriend on the wallpaper would actually make me more productive on > the whole. Productivity isn't just about the milliseconds saved in > dragging the mouse from one corner to the next. For large purchase decisions unlikely to be repeated, it's a motivating factor, and it's an important part of the consideration in deciding on "the whole package". If it weren't, people would not pay to run advertising. Your argument about your wallpaper is incorrect, since we are not talking about machines limited to a single user, we are talking about transportation of productive skills between machines. This could be hindered for you by the lack of the background you are used to seeing during your operation of a machine. Or it could be hindered by the presence of the picture of your girlfriend creating a hostile work environment for someone else who is looking over your shoulder in order to collaborate with you in a particular problem. It's a matter of perspective: "one man's mead is another man's poison". You seem upset that someone else might be able to dictate your UI. The answer is that it's not dictation, it's a consensus. The government you live under right now is consensual; not everyone can install the "society manager" of their choice, or an entirely different "society system", if the current one doesn't suit them. Basically, you are arguing that anarchy pleases you. 8-). > I really think that the shortcomings in Raskin's arguments become apparent > when he mentions the ridiculous prospect of using a wallpaper that looks > like open windows. Who the hell would do something that stupid? Besides > him, I guess. Someone who likes to screw with people would do it. Someone who doesn't want someone else to be able to casually look at their screen and see what's really going on there. Someone with poor taste in backgrounds. Someone who doesn't have a copy of that picture of your girlfriend. THere are a lot of bad background choices; the argument is called a "reductio ad absurdum". > Because frankly, I think that he deserved to get his ass > beat for changing somebody's color scheme to red on red and forcing them to > have to reinstall it. If that's his best argument for why we don't need > color in the GUI, then I rest my case. No, that was also a reductio ad absurdum argument. Consider a public library computer. What harm is it, if someone sets the color scheme to read and green during the Christmas season? None, I guess, unless you happen to be red-green color blind. The red-on-red example, though, is more of an example of a customizable interface that permits stupid choices, as well as permitting good ones. It's pretty obvious that it should not have permitted indiscernable choices for colors that are required to be contrasting for the UI to be usable. Even if you agree with none of his other premises, you have to agree that an interface that permits converting the product from its intended use to a doorstop is a poorly designed interface. > Like I said, he can develop his 1-bit WM and then he can have it. It's not about monochrome. Just because he designed the most critically acclaimed user interface of all time on a machine incapable of displaying color, doesn't mean that he would have limited himself to monochrome, had the choice been available. In fact, we see that he didn't; when the first color macintosh came out, the background was blue. In any case, developing a new window manager would not serve to solve the problem he's pointing at, any more than denying the existance of the problem solves it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 13:22:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767AB37B433 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:22:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16mLd8-0001WD-00; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:22:22 -0800 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:22:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: rob Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux with a ports collection In-Reply-To: <3C939AF5.4FB5DA19@pythonemproject.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, rob wrote: > nice features, but having a ports collection would be so cool, and so Gentoo Linux has a ports-like system (called "portage"). It is based on python. NetBSD's pkgsrc is used under Red Hat Linux. It seems like I have heard of others. > much easier for novice users. As long as the package source collection is well tested (i.e. dependencies work). Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 13:31:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09FB637B486 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:31:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.143.72.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.143.72] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16mLlt-0005Sv-00; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:31:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3C93B99A.6FA0FEEA@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:31:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Free BSD References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316105413.019e6df0@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: > At 10:50 AM 3/16/2002, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >Ever seen a Mac prior to OS X? Ever wondered who designed the GUI? > > Yeah, I've passed by a couple of MacOS displays before. It's > clean-looking, but it doesn't exactly make me envious as I use my > Windows/KDE/Gnome displays. It does the job it needs to. Whether it's > attractive or not is a matter of personal preference. That's "taste", not "preference". And that's kind of the point of the article: the reason for the artifact is to do a job, not to be decorative. If it's decorative to the point of damaging its ability to do its job, then it fails at its role. The reason we have the word "gaudy" today is that there was an architect and designer named Antoni Gaudi, who designed El Temple Expiatori de la Sagrada Familia... a church in Barcelona, Spain, from which the word "Gaudy" arose. This may be your window manager: http://www.m-j-s.net/photo/barcelona/2000-04-44020501.html > But I note two things about the Classic MacOS GUI: > > - Aesthetics aside, it still operates much like most other GUIs. > - Apple isn't using it any more. The Classic MacOS GUI has another attribute: it strongly encourages conformance with the style guide. No matter what you do to your window manager, it's not going to change the placement of scroll bars, scroll bar thumbs, up/down arrows, page up/down regions or arrows, and other widgest that are aspects of the application rather than the window manager. No matter how you slice it, mixing a TclTk program with an OpenLook program with an OpenStep program with a Motif 1.0 program with a Motif 2.0 programs (e.g Netscape) with a Java Swing program (despite it's own appearance options) is still going to look like crap, because there is no enforcement of a style guide between windows. God help you if you use an MP3 player with "skins", or a chat application that some idiot thought would be "cool" if it were made to resemble a (now antique) Motorolla "flip-phone", or the Apple QuickTime player, with its idiotic rotary volume control that you are supposed to "turn" without access to a rotary control device. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 13:38:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 35FA837B43B for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:38:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 041339489; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:37:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C93BA80.5D1A9F46@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:34:56 -0800 From: rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux with a ports collection References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, rob wrote: > > > nice features, but having a ports collection would be so cool, and so > > Gentoo Linux has a ports-like system (called "portage"). It is based on > python. > > NetBSD's pkgsrc is used under Red Hat Linux. > > It seems like I have heard of others. > > > much easier for novice users. > > As long as the package source collection is well tested (i.e. dependencies > work). > > Jeremy C. Reed > http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Right. We've got one team of people who work mostly on ports. It would take some time to build that up. SuSE has a pretty good rpm based system called Yast. I've used it before a few years ago. Still, I would always run into situations where I'd update a package, which then needed later libraries, and I'd find that 20 other packages then wouldn't run. Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 13:42:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1ED937B425 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:42:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA19453 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:46:42 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316152302.01b33d00@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:41:30 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Free BSD In-Reply-To: <3C93B514.9AB4BB7E@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:11 PM 3/16/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >I think Jef is arguing for good standards, more than poor >standards, but primarily for standards over none. Perhaps. But his argument loses merit if he chooses to completely dismiss the standards that currently exist. The masses simply don't move that quickly. >It's a matter of perspective: "one man's mead is another >man's poison". Exactly. And Jef Raskin needs to realize that not everyone wants to drink his mead. :-) > > Because frankly, I think that he deserved to get his ass > > beat for changing somebody's color scheme to red on red and forcing them to > > have to reinstall it. If that's his best argument for why we don't need > > color in the GUI, then I rest my case. > >No, that was also a reductio ad absurdum argument. No, that was his statement of something that he actually did to someone's computer to bolster his argument. And if his argument rests on the most absurd case he can find, it's probably without much merit. >Even if you agree with none of his other premises, you have >to agree that an interface that permits converting the >product from its intended use to a doorstop is a poorly >designed interface. That's like saying that a knife is a poorly designed utensil because you can cut yourself with it. Every interface known to man has the ability to be used for something unanticipated and potentially stupid. But throwing the baby out with the bathwater ain't the answer. >It's not about monochrome. Just because he designed the >most critically acclaimed user interface of all time on >a machine incapable of displaying color, doesn't mean >that he would have limited himself to monochrome, had the >choice been available. Again, I point out that no one is currently shipping "the most critically acclaimed user interface of all time" any more, so what does that say about it's modern-day value? >In any case, developing a new window manager would not serve >to solve the problem he's pointing at, any more than denying >the existance of the problem solves it. I'm not denying that improvements can be made. I'm denying that Jef Raskin's assertion that we're all ass-backwards for using our current interfaces and that his proposals are all dead-on correct. Admittedly he raises some good points, but they're largely his opinion, and I respect his opinion for what it is. << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 14: 0:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1CB837B436 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.143.72.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.143.72] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16mMDu-0001KS-00; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:00:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3C93C062.9883DCE7@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:00:02 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The Great GUI Debate (was Re: Free BSD) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316112644.01b11558@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: > Look, if you or Lambert or Raskin or anybody else think that you have a > better idea, then have at it. If you build a mousetrap that is truly > better than the one we use now, then I'm sure the world will quickly beat a > path to your doorstep. You really should have been there for the talk that Jef Raskin gave to the Bay Area FreeBSD User Group. > >Most major manufacturers put an acceleration control on the steering > >wheel, at least for their high end cars. I'm pretty sure one of the F1 > >teams did the same. > > I can't afford high-end cars, and neither can most folks. But I don't > believe it's not done because it's a "high-end" concept; I believe it's not > done because the benefits are outweighed by other negative factors, notably > the "re-learning curve." Anything with a "cruise control" has it. My dad's Green 1972 Buick station wagon with the brown fake-wood-insert shelf paper trim had one. You tuned the knob on the end of a little stick like a turn signal stick to "accl". > Well, real-time recording onto CDs and DVDs is still a dream here in > America, so for my use, CDs/DVDs aren't so clearly better than casettes and > VHS videotapes. And this denies that there have been other comparable form > factors that the industry didn't push as eagerly--MDs, DATs, and laserdiscs > come to mind quickly. I think the issue for the music industry is less > about the quality of our listening experience than about content control. DATs were doomed from the moment that the music industry got "the DAT tax" on blank media, and the frequency for the recordings was set so that it had a harmonic beat frequency with CD's, and so could not be used for digital recording that would later transfer to CDs, or vice versa. The problem with laserdiscs has always been that you can't store a whole movie on one side of the disc, and no one ever built a player with a dual mirror, a mirror on a selenoid, and a 2 second data buffer, so that it was possbile to switch from one side to another without a skip or a delay. Even the automatic turn over versions, which were the top end Pioneer ever sold, spun down, opened the door, and flipped over the disc... 12 seconds of discontinuty in the middle of your movie, no matter what. > Again I disagree. Over a long period of time, people will get used to > whatever shiny baubles they were impressed with early on. My candy-colored > scrollbars don't make me any more/less efficient than if I had a simple > two-color scrollbar. I don't pay them any attention any more until I have > to scroll something. Or use someone else's machine. Or condemn some criminal to using yours. 8-). > And if you're NOT using the system for a long time, then the efficiency > gained from changing things isn't worth the time it would take to relearn them. The efficiency is in *not* having to relearn them when you are "NOT using the system for a long time". > The problem I see with this argument is that it tries to measure human > productivity in machine cycles. My saving five minutes per day in improved > productivity may be pointless if I hate using my ugly window manager. The > benefits here are not without a cost. Did you ever see "Triumph of the Nerds"? One of th things that Cringley reports in there was obsession to detail, like getting the boot time down. The quote is inexact, but it went something like "Say we sell 20,000,000 of these. The average human lives 80 years; there are 2080 work hours in a year. There are 60 minutes in an hour, and 60 seconds in a minute. Therefore, for every 30 seconds you can knock off the boot time, you are saving an entier human life!". [ Don't think about Windows boot time, or the need to reboot here... 8-) ] -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 14:28: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D7D37B432 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28500 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:32:15 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316160233.01a698a8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:11:57 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Linux with a ports collection In-Reply-To: <3C93BA80.5D1A9F46@pythonemproject.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think I must be the only FreeBSD user in the world who has never successfully installed a port. (I use packages with pretty good success though.) That used to be one of my biggest complaints with FreeBSD in my early days with it--broken packages that broke dependency chains in other packages. But they still worked better for me than ports. Fortunately, packages seem to work pretty well nowadays, so I never have to hear another port laughing at me with its cackling error messages any more. :-) << Chip Morton >> At 03:34 PM 3/16/2002, rob wrote: >Right. We've got one team of people who work mostly on ports. It would >take some time to build that up. SuSE has a pretty good rpm based >system called Yast. I've used it before a few years ago. Still, I >would always run into situations where I'd update a package, which then >needed later libraries, and I'd find that 20 other packages then >wouldn't run. Rob. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 14:28: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 708C337B429 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:27:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.143.72.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.143.72] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16mMeG-0003YH-00; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:27:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3C93C6C2.6B3CC26D@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:27:14 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Free BSD References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316152302.01b33d00@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: > > > Because frankly, I think that he deserved to get his ass > > > beat for changing somebody's color scheme to red on red and forcing them to > > > have to reinstall it. If that's his best argument for why we don't need > > > color in the GUI, then I rest my case. > > > >No, that was also a reductio ad absurdum argument. > > No, that was his statement of something that he actually did to someone's > computer to bolster his argument. And if his argument rests on the most > absurd case he can find, it's probably without much merit. Spamming the computer was his means of presenting his argument. The "spamee" in this story was someone who has bragged about his system being well designed, when it turned out that it was only well designed from the perspective of the user engaging in self-control that could only come from a familiarity with the system. The mistake that was made by the spameed is that there was an assumed familiarity. > >Even if you agree with none of his other premises, you have > >to agree that an interface that permits converting the > >product from its intended use to a doorstop is a poorly > >designed interface. > > That's like saying that a knife is a poorly designed utensil because you > can cut yourself with it. Every interface known to man has the ability to > be used for something unanticipated and potentially stupid. But throwing > the baby out with the bathwater ain't the answer. I could argue that cuttable humans are the poor design... but I won't. If it's possible to design a knife where you can't cut yourself with it, yet it maintains its intended function in the role of a knife, then yes, I would say that knives not designed that way are poorly designed. I would also disagree with your "every interface" claim; my favorite interface is the interface on a road side assitance kiosk, used in some countries in Europe. It has a single button. You press it. It's an incredibly compelling design, and, to me, a comment on the way machines should be designed: a single "fulfill your function" button has incredible elegance. > >It's not about monochrome. Just because he designed the > >most critically acclaimed user interface of all time on > >a machine incapable of displaying color, doesn't mean > >that he would have limited himself to monochrome, had the > >choice been available. > > Again, I point out that no one is currently shipping "the most critically > acclaimed user interface of all time" any more, so what does that say about > it's modern-day value? That the design was an adequate basis for future work, in that it kept the company afloat? > >In any case, developing a new window manager would not serve > >to solve the problem he's pointing at, any more than denying > >the existance of the problem solves it. > > I'm not denying that improvements can be made. I'm denying that Jef > Raskin's assertion that we're all ass-backwards for using our current > interfaces and that his proposals are all dead-on correct. Admittedly he > raises some good points, but they're largely his opinion, and I respect his > opinion for what it is. Me too. His bonifides go on for miles, compared to yours or mine. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 19:47:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E44D237B400 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2002 19:47:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 43629 invoked by uid 100); 17 Mar 2002 03:47:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15508.4573.933029.886085@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 21:47:41 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The Great Gui Debate. In-Reply-To: <3C93B514.9AB4BB7E@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316112644.01b11558@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020316131434.01b22178@threespace.com> <3C93B514.9AB4BB7E@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.49 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <3C93B514.9AB4BB7E@mindspring.com>, Terry Lambert typed: > Chip Morton wrote: > Second, his design philosophy is that you build the interface, > and the build the underlying system to support it. In this > philosophy, it's impossible to glue a UI on an existing system > and meet the design goal, unless you design the UI, and then > go looking for a system that matches it and can be forced into > supporting it, and/or build a new system from scratch. He wants to replace the entire paradigm of how people use computers. Trying to glue the GUI he designed for the Cannon Cat on top of a "normal" system - or vice versa - would be painfull. > You seem upset that someone else might be able to dictate > your UI. The answer is that it's not dictation, it's a > consensus. The government you live under right now is > consensual; not everyone can install the "society manager" > of their choice, or an entirely different "society system", > if the current one doesn't suit them. Basically, you are > arguing that anarchy pleases you. 8-). I'm upset about having the "society manager" dictated to me as well, but that's a different thread. I disagree with Jef on this issue. Computers should adopt to people, not vice versa. Forcing someone to do things your way is not inhumane, exactly the opposite of what Jef was aiming for. > > I really think that the shortcomings in Raskin's arguments become apparent > > when he mentions the ridiculous prospect of using a wallpaper that looks > > like open windows. Who the hell would do something that stupid? Besides > > him, I guess. > Someone who likes to screw with people would do it. Someone > who doesn't want someone else to be able to casually look at > their screen and see what's really going on there. Someone > with poor taste in backgrounds. Someone who doesn't have a > copy of that picture of your girlfriend. THere are a lot of > bad background choices; the argument is called a "reductio ad > absurdum". I've actually been bitten by this one. It was a randomly selected screensaver that left something looking like normal windows on the screen. I tried to use it, and it didn't work very well. > Even if you agree with none of his other premises, you have > to agree that an interface that permits converting the > product from its intended use to a doorstop is a poorly > designed interface. That depends on whether or not you need a doorstop :-). You should know the quote about Unix that's relevant - preventing people from doing stupid things is a bad idea, because it also prevents people from doing clever things. In <4.3.2.7.2.20020316131434.01b22178@threespace.com>, Chip Morton typed: > At 12:35 PM 3/16/2002, Mike Meyer wrote: > >In <4.3.2.7.2.20020316112644.01b11558@threespace.com>, Chip Morton > > typed: > > > Look, if you or Lambert or Raskin or anybody else think that you have a > > > better idea, then have at it. If you build a mousetrap that is truly > > > better than the one we use now, then I'm sure the world will quickly > > beat a > > > path to your doorstep. > >Mine's plpwm. It's part of the plwm port. > And I can respect that you decided to take things into your own hands and > make improvements to your own workstation. But you haven't gone so far as > to claim, "I'm right, and you're all wrong and stupid for using your > inferior window managers." I'll probably check out plpwm one of these > days, but if I decide to stick with KDE, I would hope that you wouldn't be > calling me a moron who had relegated himself to sub-optimal productivity > for the rest of his life. Nope, I wouldn't. How can you possibly call something a personal computer if you can't personalize it? > >The people I know who were serious about real-time recording moved to > >either DAT or mini-disks a long time ago. Then again, most of them > >have since give those up, and do real-time capture to disk, edit and > >mix on the computer, then burn the CD. > I use MDs for my real-time recording, but I still usually have to move the > results to CD if I want to share the results with anybody or be able to > truly play it anywhere. These extra steps don't improve the product, they > just allow much wider distribution. If the music industry hadn't decided > to fight recordable digital formats (as they continue to do even with > widely available CD-R technology), that might not be necessary. Um - why don't you just let them use their MD player? They don't have one, so you have to convert it to something that they have. How's that different from doing it on CD, other than that CD players are a lot more common than MD players? And trying to blame Jef Raskin for the recording industries stupidity is really pushing things. > >Why are you assuming that you'd hate Raskin - or my - way of doing > >things? Personally, I hate the MS/Apple GUI way of doing things. > I'm not saying that I would hate it. What I hate is his peering down his > nose at the rest of the computing world and telling us what morons we are > for continuing to use these obviously inferior GUIs. In my view, it's a > matter of personal preference and opinion, not an issue of right or > wrong. And if efficiency isn't your holy grail, Raskin's ideas quickly > lose clout. I missed that quote. Could you provide a relatively exact reference? Like, down to a paragraph level? > > > > The actual look of a window manager (or car, or woman, or anything else) > > > > only matters very early up front. You may be wowed by the look of the > > > > windows and widgets early on, but after that it really doesn't matter to > > > > you while you're working. > > >Actually, it does matter. If you notice them, then you're not > > >working. That's why the look matters. Being wow'ed early on is usually > > >a bad sign, not a good one. > > Again I disagree. Over a long period of time, people will get used to > > whatever shiny baubles they were impressed with early on. My candy-colored > > scrollbars don't make me any more/less efficient than if I had a simple > > two-color scrollbar. I don't pay them any attention any more until I have > > to scroll something. > >In this case, we just have to agree to disagree. I remember to many > >people being *very* happy when the Amiga lost it's "halloween" color > >scheme as the default. > I was happy too, but not because I became any more efficient. I was happy > because the Halloween scheme was kinda ugly. :-) Ah, so the actual look of the window manager *does* matter. > >In fact, one of the things that sucks about the common > >interfaces is that all they let you change are the trivial things like > >the looks, but not any of the important things that would actually > >make them more efficient, not just glitzier. > I agree with you about being able to do significant configurations rather > than simple cosmetic ones. But again, if Raskin believes that a standard > interface is essential for maintaining productivity levels across different > computers used for similar tasks, then it stands to reason that giving you > an interface that allowed you to move your widgets wherever you please > would run counter to that goal. You can't have it both ways. Yes, you can. What you need is a standardized - and unchangeable - way to put the intervace back to the standard. I.e. - Control-Alt-Backspace, or some such. Problem solved. > Now I do agree that for an organization it is probably beneficial to > enforce some of these standards. These computers aren't the property of > the individuals; they belong to the organization. But some of us actually > use our computers because we *enjoy* it, not because we have any > particularly pressing task to accomplish. And I don't think my opinion is > any less significant because I like my windows rendered in 24-bit color. Hopefully, an organization out to make a profit would realize that letting people adapt the computer to their work habits rather than vice versa is a good thing. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message