From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 15 0:15:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E831D37B416 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 00:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD1BBDC9; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 00:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA11748; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 00:15:19 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g3F7FcL13255; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 00:15:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: Terry Lambert Subject: DMCA, unlicensed downloading, and imact on open software From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 15 Apr 2002 00:15:37 -0700 Message-ID: <5xsn5xwhye.n5x@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 59 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This exchange (from http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?db=irt&id=3CAB69B8.2817604E@mindspring.com) recently appeared here: > > Are you aware that most users of most open source software (specifically > > BSD-licensed software) need not (and seldom do) agree to the terms of > > the licenses (including the disclaimers) to legally use the software > > (as long as they don't republish it), yet few of the lawyers who've > > looked at open source licenses have raised this as a risk. > > The license in the BSD case specifically requires agreement > for use. The GPL doesn't require full compliance for use, as > partial compliance is permissable, as long as there is no > distribution. > > In either case, however, you are in violation of the DMCA, if > you download the code, without agreeing to the license. (Only the last paragraph is really relevant to the subject of this message, so most of the above is just context which I'll ignore, except to note my disagreement with the first sentence of the reply with respect to the use of "running" an owned copy of the software.) I spent two hours today skimming the DMCA (if it's at http://www.loc.gov/copyright/legislation/hr2281.pdf as claimed by Jon Katz) for relevant material and reading interesting material. I saw nothing of even glancing relevance to the downloading of code without prior agreement to a license, unless it involved "circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work" and maybe a few similar unusual cases not relevant to the open source software being discussed. The act is gruesomely detailed, but reasonably well organized, so that I'm confident that the DMCA does not prohibit the downloading of open source software without being licensed. The most interesting/suprising thing I saw was in the section "1202. Integrity of copyright management information" which prohibits the removal or alteration of: the title/ID, info about author, info about copyrights owner, terms and conditions, and references to such information. The implication is that our licenses have effectively gotten significantly longer, even for code licensed years ago. :-( This new law is likely to be widely violated if common practices in the open source world are continued. Publishers of software should in the future be kind to users by being careful about not including lots of unimportant information which nonetheless qualifies as "copyright management information" and maybe waiving some requirements in the license (if that makes legal sense). I suspect that the BSD and other licenses' requirements regarding what must be kept with the software may not be interpreted as being exclusive of other requirements of law, and probably should be rewritten to explicitly waive some requirements of the DMCA. P.S. Some day maybe I'll try to determine if the seemingly erroneous statement quoted above could be made true by replacing "DMCA" with "UCITA" (which so far has only been made law in Virginia, AFAIK). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 15 10:11:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from axl.seasidesoftware.co.za (axl.seasidesoftware.co.za [196.31.7.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89FA337B41B for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.seasidesoftware.co.za) by axl.seasidesoftware.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16xA53-00044h-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 19:15:53 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Unix-only equivalent to bugtraq? Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 19:15:53 +0200 Message-ID: <15666.1018890953@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi folks, Is there a Unix-only equivalent to bugtraq? Obviously, "Unix" here means Unix-like, or there'd be very little to discuss. ;-) Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 15 12: 2:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thales.memphis.edu (thales.memphis.edu [141.225.37.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DCA8637B400 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 25286 invoked by uid 500); 15 Apr 2002 18:55:57 -0000 Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:55:57 -0500 From: Mate Wierdl To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020415135557.A16400@thales.memphis.edu> References: <20020403144539.A11798@thales.memphis.edu> <3CAB7860.EB8DF505@mindspring.com> <20020410163728.A25502@thales.memphis.edu> <3CB4D277.51F744B8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CB4D277.51F744B8@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 05:01:59PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 05:01:59PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Mate Wierdl wrote: > > It certainly can happen that the advice given in an rfc turns out to > > be ill in the wild after a time. DNS over TCP, for example, turns out > > to be prone to DOS attacks, and is much slower. > > UDP and TCP themselves are prone to DOS attacks, so you aren't saying > anything here. I meant "DNS over TCP is more prone". > > In case of tinydns, there is no data to be reloaded: data is stored in > > a file. Is "reloading data" defined to be the same as "looking up a > > record from a file"? And pushing the new data to the slave happens > > immediately after the update on the master. > > What about *during* the push? You add latency to the time it > takes for a change to take effect. For practical application, > e.g. an "ETRN" from a dial-on-demand transiently connected mail > server, this implies an intentional latency between the "demand" > (the contacting of the remote mail server for the purposes of > "ETRN", which is what causes the link to be brought up) and the > execution of the remainder of the act that initiated the "demand". > In other words, you have to put an arbitrary delay that is 2*N + 1, > where N is the latency in making the transient DNS record for the > dial-on-demand mail server's dynamically assigned IP address > visible to the DNS serving the remote mail server. You are right, dynamic assignments you describe are not supported by djbdns. The above is a real problem for big ISPs only. The existing tools provide a fast enough update of the tinydns data file, without requiring any further configuration of tinydns. As for larger ISPs, being able to incrementally update a cdb file would probably solve the problem. The beauty (for me) of this solution would be that it would not require implementing new standards, and would not require any additional configuration items for the sysadmin. > > > Here's my argument: > > > > > > "All DNS data transfers should take place over the > > > DNS protocol." > > > > Well, this requirement results in complexity, and lots of reinventing > > the wheel. > > Oh well. Here's my favorite reformulation of Occam's Razor: > > "Anything that works is better than anything that doesn't" > > > In case of tinydns, transferring data is equivalent with transferring > > a file. Perhaps you suggest that the transfer should take place over > > the DNS protocol because of firewall considerations. > > Yes. > > > But exactly the > > added complexity will necessarily result in security problems. > > I have yet to see a proof of this assumption that complexity is > a sufficient (or even necessary) condition for insecurity. You certainly can make a convincing case; for example, see section 2.1 in http://www.counterpane.com/ipsec.pdf I wonder which of the general comments in that paper do not apply to DNSSEC. > > And then there is DNSSEC. It seems to be so complex that it may > > defeat its own purpose: improve security. For example, at > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/dns4/chapter/ch11.html > > > > I read: > > > > We realize that DNSSEC is a bit, er, daunting. (We nearly fainted > > the first time we saw it.) > > > > Indeed, even without DNSSEC, apparently 24% of .com servers have > > misconfigured delegations. > > That's mostly because servers with misconfigured delegations > aren't automatically considered non-authoritative (effectively > diking them out of the internet). Having your servers diked off > the internet is a wonderous incentive toward correctness. It > even works for SPAM. I am not sure I follow: designing complex systems is OK, but let us get tough on those who fail to understand these systems? > > > > It is not irrelevant because it does hint at the problems with IQUERY, > > and at the fact that clients do not send IQUERY anymore. Hence it is > > unlikely that users will suffer from this lack of compliance. > > It is better to comply with a bad standard, than to be in limbo > between standards. > > FreeBSD pthreads were incredibly screwed up for a while, when they > were being moved from Draft 4 compliance to final standard compliance; > as Draft 4, they were usable; as standard, they would also be usable. > But in between... it was nearly impossible to make them work. > > In the realm of the internet, the moral equivalent is compliance > with standards documents: without compliance, you lose all features > which derive from interoperability, and if that interoperability > failure is between clients and servers, rather than servers, you > lose everything. I could accept your argument, but I still do not see how not following the standards to the letter for IQUERY, which is ---a threat to security ---not implemented in clients anymore, can cause DNS interoperability problems. Mate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 15 14: 7:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from schlepper.zs64.net (schlepper.zs64.net [212.12.48.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F8937B419 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by schlepper.zs64.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with UUCP id g3FL74792483; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 23:07:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from cracauer@cons.org) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by cons.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g3FM1uG02533; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:01:57 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:01:55 -0400 To: Darren Henderson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mystery technologies? Message-ID: <20020415180155.A2504@cons.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from darren@nighttide.net on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 06:33:31PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Henderson wrote on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 06:33:31PM -0400: > > Sounds nice but... "Our steep discounts are made possible by technology > that allows us to segment mainframe class servers into multiple, > independent servers - each on a completely autonomous system." I don't > believe I have heard of anyone porting FreeBSD to any big iron, perhaps > some old Alpha mainframes? But I haven't heard of folks running multiple > instances of the system on one box... Might be the vmware server (non-graphics) product. Martin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 15 14:29:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu (williams.mc.Vanderbilt.Edu [160.129.208.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C76D437B400 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21911 invoked by uid 19192); 15 Apr 2002 21:29:33 -0000 Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:29:32 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mystery technologies? Message-ID: <20020415212932.GN16355@williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu> References: <20020415180155.A2504@cons.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020415180155.A2504@cons.org> X-PGP-Key: 0x727A9DD2 (http://drew.rain3s.net/pubkey.asc) From: Drew Raines Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51+ (Python 2.2 on SunOS/sun4u) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Martin Cracauer : > > Might be the vmware server (non-graphics) product. Or one of the Ensim products: http://www.ensim.com -- Drew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 15 19:40:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server2.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E5837B41A for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 19:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server2.highperformance.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3G2dltw045616 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 19:39:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 19:39:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Ever Changing Apache2 Naming Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Now that Apache 2 is really a release, can we expect the name of the various files and directories to stop changing? Please? Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 16 16: 2:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A674937B41B for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16xbxk-0002TT-00; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:02:12 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:02:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: looking for good-printing, line drawings of BSD Daemon Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone have any line drawings of the BSD daemon that print well? I am printing a poster and am looking for a simple, one-color, line drawing of the BSD Daemon (aka "Beastie") that looks good even when printed several inches in size. Thanks, Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 16 16: 6:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E67537B416 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g3GN69W31500; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:06:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:06:09 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: looking for good-printing, line drawings of BSD Daemon Message-ID: <20020416160609.A30847@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:02:12PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 04:02:12PM -0700, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > Does anyone have any line drawings of the BSD daemon that print well? >=20 > I am printing a poster and am looking for a simple, one-color, line > drawing of the BSD Daemon (aka "Beastie") that looks good even when > printed several inches in size. He's not one-color, but there's one in /usr/share/examples/BSD_daemon/. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8vK5fXY6L6fI4GtQRAsYoAKCA8r80YElLXEW/1eEGS6U/ddTPQgCgnX10 nqTkQHvV/M/yXzbZSRvGk1E= =2Emy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 16 16:18:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA4237B404 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 8EE3E5309; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 01:18:53 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brooks Davis Cc: "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: looking for good-printing, line drawings of BSD Daemon References: <20020416160609.A30847@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Apr 2002 01:18:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20020416160609.A30847@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Message-ID: Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brooks Davis writes: > He's not one-color, but there's one in /usr/share/examples/BSD_daemon/. It was drawn in xfig (ports/graphics/xfig), which makes it trivial to remove everything but the lines. As a quick hack, you can just edit the eps file and redefine every color except col0 to white, e.g. /col1 {0.000 0.000 1.000 srgb} bind def becomes /col1 {1.000 1.000 1.000 srgb} bind def and so on for all the colors that are actually used, except col0 which is used for the lines. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 16 16:38:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9131537B400 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16xcWf-0002Vh-00; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:38:17 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:38:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: looking for good-printing, line drawings of BSD Daemon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17 Apr 2002, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Brooks Davis writes: > > He's not one-color, but there's one in /usr/share/examples/BSD_daemon/. > > It was drawn in xfig (ports/graphics/xfig), which makes it trivial to > remove everything but the lines. As a quick hack, you can just edit > the eps file and redefine every color except col0 to white, e.g. Thank you Brooks and Dag-Erling! I see it also has instructions for making poster, patch for black&white shoelaces, and more. This will work great. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 16 22:25: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D19F37B41B for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 22:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26658 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2002 23:24:59 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020416232407.0220c340@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 23:24:56 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Is the snapshot server down? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I can't seem to connect to releng4.freebsd.org via FTP. Is it down or just extremely busy? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 17 6:52:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fling.sanbi.ac.za (fling.sanbi.ac.za [196.38.142.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACB4437B41A for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 06:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from johann by fling.sanbi.ac.za with local (Exim 3.13 #4) id 16xpqe-000JbZ-00; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:51:48 +0200 Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:51:48 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mailing list comparisons? Message-ID: <20020417135148.GC65093@fling.sanbi.ac.za> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeremy C. Reed on 2002-04-10 (Wed) at 09:44:22 -0700: > > Does anyone know of a good webpage that summarizes the features, > strengths and weaknesses of several mailing lists managers? Nothing current. > (I did find a few reviews and a useful, but old, Mailing list management > software FAQ.) I think I know the one you're talking about. > I am looking for a mailing list: Let me see if I can fill out your matrix for Mailman (http://www.list.org/). > - manage via email (web-based management not required) Check. (Also web-based and command line.) > - users aren't forced to use a password to unsubscribe Sorry, no. > - detect hard bounces and unsubscribe as needed Check. (May be configured.) > - has a reasonable good track record of non-security issues. Check, I think. Updates to the stable version are few and far between, though the development version is under constant development. > - lightweight, but perl is okay (that doesn't make sense :) Check, IMHO. It's written in Python, and quite simple to script / extend if you're fluent in Python. For better or worse, Mailman has been adopted as the official GNU MLM, which may be one reason for its current popularity. The web interface being another. In my experience, the current stable Mailman series (2.0.x) fares poorly with large lists (roughly > 20000 subscribers). The 2.1.x series seems to address the problem, but I've not used it in a large production environment. > If I can't find a good one webpage that summarizes several open source > mailing list managers, then I'll make one. I'd like to see the end result. -- V To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 17 11:32: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA0837B400 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 11:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 875743F28 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 14:31:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 14:31:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: gnats healthy today? Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020417183155.875743F28@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org is FreeBSD-gnats-submit working today? I've submitted two PRs, neither of which have turned up in the db nor have I recieved any confirmation emails. [sorry about the duplicate PR if the second one turns up too] -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 17 13:23:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 438B937B404 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id CC42A5309; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 22:23:27 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gnats healthy today? References: <20020417183155.875743F28@bast.unixathome.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Apr 2002 22:23:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20020417183155.875743F28@bast.unixathome.org> Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Dan Langille" writes: > is FreeBSD-gnats-submit working today? I've submitted two PRs, neither of > which have turned up in the db nor have I recieved any confirmation > emails. gnats@freefall ~/gnats-adm% awk -F\| '/Langille/ { print $1, $4, $17 }' index | tail docs/31148 closed change freshports to FreshPorts bin/31524 closed fix spelling mistake in /etc/dhclient.conf docs/32955 closed fix typo in man ukbd (add space missing between two words) ports/34348 closed postgresql doesn't use long version of command line options ports/34451 closed security/drweb-sendmail: check that a variable exists before testing it bin/34489 closed tail cores if you press control-\ ports/35571 closed INDEX contains duplicate entries and omits some ports ports/35573 closed INDEX contains duplicate entries and omits others ports/37189 open give up maintainership of logcheck and portsentry ports/37191 open give up maintaining logcheck and portsentry DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 17 13:25:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B71037B405; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id A96545309; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 22:25:32 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, postmaster@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gnats healthy today? References: <20020417183155.875743F28@bast.unixathome.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Apr 2002 22:25:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > ports/35571 closed INDEX contains duplicate entries and omits some ports > ports/35573 closed INDEX contains duplicate entries and omits others > ports/37189 open give up maintainership of logcheck and portsentry > ports/37191 open give up maintaining logcheck and portsentry The confirmations bounced: : host lists.unixathome.org[210.48.103.158] said: 553 5.3.0 ... The destination email address is disabled because of spam. Reporting-MTA: dns; mx2.freebsd.org Arrival-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Can we please get rid of this RBL silliness? I think it's been amply demonstrated that MAPS blocks far too much legitimate traffic. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 17 13:44:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ADBB37B417; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F00B13F28; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:44:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:44:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: gnats healthy today? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, postmaster@freebsd.org References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020417204426.F00B13F28@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17 Apr 2002 at 22:25, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > The confirmations bounced: > > : host lists.unixathome.org[210.48.103.158] said: 553 > 5.3.0 ... The destination email address is disabled > because of spam. > Reporting-MTA: dns; mx2.freebsd.org > Arrival-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:10:12 -0700 (PDT) > > Can we please get rid of this RBL silliness? I think it's been amply > demonstrated that MAPS blocks far too much legitimate traffic. Ummm, I think that's me ... *blush*.... I disabled that email address and should not be using it on my replies... I was just getting too much spam. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 17 18:37:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E18B237B400 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 618 invoked by uid 100); 18 Apr 2002 01:37:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15550.9030.396432.30948@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 20:37:10 -0500 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: overclocking and freebsd In-Reply-To: <20020412144054.GB2610@hades.hell.gr> References: <20011110215343.C961@bsd.alexe.org> <20020411182041.H45395@darius.2y.net> <20020411200534.A25472@ns.museum.rain.com> <20020412042041.GA80748@peitho.fxp.org> <20020412144054.GB2610@hades.hell.gr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020412144054.GB2610@hades.hell.gr>, Giorgos Keramidas typed: > That's a highly subjective metric though. My FreeBSD machine feels a > lot more responsive than those Windows XP machines with faster CPUs a > and larger amounts of RAM I've seen friends work on. But how does one > define an objective metric of 'responsiveness'? Easy - to describe, anyway. First, get a large enough group of users for each system to be statistically significant, and watch them work for a week or so, noting all their activites and how many each one is done. Sort out the activities that are relevant to the question at hand, and see if the relative frequencies of them are reasonably close to each other. If they are, make up a sequence of events that hits those frequences. If not, make up three sequences, one for each group, and one for the two groups combined. Now measure how long it takes each member of each group to perform the sequence(s). After you've got the data, you can start running two-variable tests for the sequence(s), and see if there's a statistically significant difference. The tricky part will be when the timing is warped by the window manager. I.e., if I've got a WM set to follow the mouse and not raise the active window, then activating a window is one action for me (point), but two (point and click) for a windows users. On the other hand, raising a window is easy for a windows users, because they can point anywhere in the window, whereas I have to point at the frame. If I'm using a pointerless window manager, it starts getting really complicated. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 17 23:10:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751FD37B404 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g3I66ZO03757; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:06:35 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:06:34 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Mike Meyer Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Message-ID: <20020418070634.I30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20011110215343.C961@bsd.alexe.org> <20020411182041.H45395@darius.2y.net> <20020411200534.A25472@ns.museum.rain.com> <20020412042041.GA80748@peitho.fxp.org> <20020412144054.GB2610@hades.hell.gr> <15550.9030.396432.30948@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AAnJd2yLvu+tR7U7" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <15550.9030.396432.30948@guru.mired.org>; from mwm-dated-1019525830.931e6a@mired.org on Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 08:37:10PM -0500 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --AAnJd2yLvu+tR7U7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 08:37:10PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > The tricky part will be when the timing is warped by the window > manager. I.e., if I've got a WM set to follow the mouse and not raise > the active window, then activating a window is one action for me > (point), but two (point and click) for a windows users. On the other > hand, raising a window is easy for a windows users, because they can > point anywhere in the window, whereas I have to point at the frame.=20 Not if Meta-LeftClick is bound to 'raise window' anywhere in the window area. . . =2E . . actually, it's bound to 'raise-or-lower'. If the window is partially occluded it brings it to the top of the Z order, otherwise it sends it to the bottom. I miss that every time I transition to a Windows system. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --AAnJd2yLvu+tR7U7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjy+YmkACgkQk6gHZCw343Uu1wCgj8efZnIkeyGVnNiK+izrulAi 4msAn0BZVNQIXqtAQ9RtYlJoC/s3Qf/v =Bdqc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AAnJd2yLvu+tR7U7-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 17 23:32:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 75F6D37B41C for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9642 invoked by uid 100); 18 Apr 2002 06:32:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15550.26754.195694.112510@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 01:32:34 -0500 To: Nik Clayton Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd In-Reply-To: <20020418070634.I30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20011110215343.C961@bsd.alexe.org> <20020411182041.H45395@darius.2y.net> <20020411200534.A25472@ns.museum.rain.com> <20020412042041.GA80748@peitho.fxp.org> <20020412144054.GB2610@hades.hell.gr> <15550.9030.396432.30948@guru.mired.org> <20020418070634.I30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020418070634.I30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org>, Nik Clayton typed: > On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 08:37:10PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > > The tricky part will be when the timing is warped by the window > > manager. I.e., if I've got a WM set to follow the mouse and not raise > > the active window, then activating a window is one action for me > > (point), but two (point and click) for a windows users. On the other > > hand, raising a window is easy for a windows users, because they can > > point anywhere in the window, whereas I have to point at the frame. > Not if Meta-LeftClick is bound to 'raise window' anywhere in the window > area. . . That's still slower, because it's one point and two keyclicks vs. one point and one keyclick. Personally, I don't use the mouse for window management. That's far to important to be left to such a low-bandwidth device. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 18 2: 8:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E365337B400 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 02:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g3I98Fa61846 ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 11:08:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA64556 ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 11:08:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 11:08:15 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mike Meyer Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Message-ID: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20011110215343.C961@bsd.alexe.org> <20020411182041.H45395@darius.2y.net> <20020411200534.A25472@ns.museum.rain.com> <20020412042041.GA80748@peitho.fxp.org> <20020412144054.GB2610@hades.hell.gr> <15550.9030.396432.30948@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15550.9030.396432.30948@guru.mired.org>; from mwm-dated-1019525830.931e6a@mired.org on Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 08:37:10PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer said on Apr 17, 2002 at 20:37:10: > The tricky part will be when the timing is warped by the window > manager. I.e., if I've got a WM set to follow the mouse and not raise > the active window, then activating a window is one action for me > (point), but two (point and click) for a windows users. Actually, in common with many windows users, I just use alt-tab. KDE handles it very well (showing you the window titles in a non-intrusive way as you're cycling through them, so you can quickly hit the correct one), and sawfish/gnome is not bad either; in both cases it's much quicker than aiming a mouse pointer at the correct window, especially if you have a lot of open windows. Long time since I've used windows but my memory is that alt-tab isn't quite so nice there, though that key combination is I think a Microsoft invention. Of course, this has nothing to do with FreeBSD as such. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 18 5:41:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF82837B416 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 05:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g3ICf6k23462; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 05:41:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 05:41:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd In-Reply-To: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Actually, in common with many windows users, I just use alt-tab. KDE > handles it very well (showing you the window titles in a non-intrusive > way as you're cycling through them, so you can quickly hit the correct > one), and sawfish/gnome is not bad either; in both cases it's much > quicker than aiming a mouse pointer at the correct window, especially > if you have a lot of open windows. Long time since I've used windows > but my memory is that alt-tab isn't quite so nice there, though that > key combination is I think a Microsoft invention. i believe that the apple-tab key does the same thing, on MacOS. i don't know how old the convention is, but it has spread to the point where just about every window manager supports it now. there are still a couple exceptions (blackbox, being one). -- jan -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 18 5:49:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C01DF37B41D for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 05:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g3ICn3K15680; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:49:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA13701; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:49:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CBEC0BF.77964D@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:49:03 -0500 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd References: <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > > i believe that the apple-tab key does the same thing, on MacOS. i don't > know how old the convention is, but it has spread to the point where just > about every window manager supports it now. there are still a couple > exceptions (blackbox, being one). Actually, blackbox and fluxbox (same thing really) DO support it. You have to use bbkeys. Eric ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology You have my continuous partial attention ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 18 5:51:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA2D37B419 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 05:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g3ICpra95093 ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:51:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA74393 ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:51:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 14:51:53 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Message-ID: <20020418145153.G64286@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org>; from jan@caustic.org on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 05:41:05AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org f.johan.beisser said on Apr 18, 2002 at 05:41:05: [alt-tab cycling] > i believe that the apple-tab key does the same thing, on MacOS. I read a complaint somewhere about MacOS X, that this cycles through all the windows in a circular manner, ie in order of creation of the windows, which is a pain if you've got more than 3 or 4 windows open and you're actively using only 2 of them (so you want alt-tab to go to the second window, but another alt-tab to return to the first; if you have 10 open windows you don't want to cycle through all 10 to get back to the first.) I don't know whether this is true. KDE, Sawfish and (I believe) Windows do the sensible thing: they reorder the windows according to last usage, so you move through a "stack" with recently-focussed windows on top, and not through a closed chain of fixed order. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 18 6:47:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CD6637B404 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 06:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.38] (root@LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g3IDjbu11704; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020418145153.G64286@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <20020418145153.G64286@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 15:43:18 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , "f.johan.beisser" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Cc: Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:51 PM +0200 2002/04/18, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > f.johan.beisser said on Apr 18, 2002 at 05:41:05: > [alt-tab cycling] >> i believe that the apple-tab key does the same thing, on MacOS. > > I read a complaint somewhere about MacOS X, that this cycles through > all the windows in a circular manner, ie in order of creation of the > windows, Nope. I just tried it. Command-tab switches between the open applications (via the Dock), and then when you release the command key, it brings all the windows for that application to the front. Maybe the behaviour you describe is configurable, but I'm pretty sure that this is a default action that I did not change. I'm running MacOS X 10.1.3 on a PowerBook G3/Pismo with 1GB RAM, 48GB IBM Travelstar HD, and hardware DVD player. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 18 7: 1:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9606537B41E for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g3IE1Ga06278 ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 16:01:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA77215 ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 16:01:16 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 16:01:16 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Message-ID: <20020418160116.H64286@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <20020418145153.G64286@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 03:43:18PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Apr 18, 2002 at 15:43:18: > At 2:51 PM +0200 2002/04/18, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > I read a complaint somewhere about MacOS X, that this cycles through > > all the windows in a circular manner, ie in order of creation of the > > windows, > > Nope. I just tried it. Command-tab switches between the open > applications (via the Dock), and then when you release the command > key, it brings all the windows for that application to the front. OK, it groups windows by application -- that's an improvement over Unix window managers. But when you're cycling through different applications, does it remember the recent ones and put them to the top of the stack? Say, you have only three unrelated windows: Netscape, a terminal, and a CD player, which were started in that order, but the CD player is playing by itself in the background and you've only been switching between Netscape and the terminal. Is your first command-tab switch always to one of these two windows -- so that a single "alt-tab" is all you need, as long as you're not touching the CD player? Or does it always go through a fixed "netscape -> terminal -> cd" cycle which you can't change, so you need to do "command-tab" once to go from netscape to the terminal, but twice to go from the terminal back to netscape? I've encountered some window managers on unix which had this behaviour, including enlightenment (but maybe it was configurable or it's changed). Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 18 8: 5: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246E437B41C for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bmah.dyndns.org ([12.233.149.189]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020418150441.LHV1901.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@bmah.dyndns.org>; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 15:04:41 +0000 Received: from intruder.bmah.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by bmah.dyndns.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3IF4eNk011272; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:04:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah@intruder.bmah.org) Received: (from bmah@localhost) by intruder.bmah.org (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g3IF4egn011271; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200204181504.g3IF4egn011271@intruder.bmah.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5+ 20020416 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is the snapshot server down? In-reply-to: <4.3.2.7.2.20020416232407.0220c340@nospam.lariat.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020416232407.0220c340@nospam.lariat.org> Comments: In-reply-to Brett Glass message dated "Tue, 16 Apr 2002 23:24:56 -0600." From: bmah@acm.org (Bruce A. Mah) Reply-To: bmah@acm.org X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:04:40 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If memory serves me right, Brett Glass wrote: > I can't seem to connect to releng4.freebsd.org via FTP. Is it down or > just extremely busy? I think it's closer to "down". As of 10 April, releng4 was being replaced with a newer machine. Not sure what the timeframe is for finishing this. In the meantime, snapshots.jp.freebsd.org produces excellent snapshot distributions. Bruce. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 18 8:20:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FBA537B41B for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.8.228] (root@LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g3IFHtu27700; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 11:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020418160116.H64286@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <20020418145153.G64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418160116.H64286@lpt.ens.fr> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 17:07:23 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:01 PM +0200 2002/04/18, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > OK, it groups windows by application -- that's an improvement over > Unix window managers. But when you're cycling through different > applications, does it remember the recent ones and put them to the top > of the stack? Whatever was last on top when you last used that application is still on top when you switch back. In other words, it preserves whatever order had previously been present. I have not yet figured out how to switch/cycle windows within a particular application, however. > Say, you have only three unrelated windows: Netscape, a terminal, and > a CD player, which were started in that order, but the CD player is > playing by itself in the background and you've only been switching > between Netscape and the terminal. Is your first command-tab switch > always to one of these two windows -- so that a single "alt-tab" is > all you need, as long as you're not touching the CD player? Ahh, sorry. I misunderstood. As best I can tell, it seems to switch in a fixed order between all open applications. Basically, I think it uses the order that the icons are displayed in the Dock (left to right, in my case). -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 18 13: 3:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from syr-24-58-48-195.twcny.rr.com (syr-24-58-48-195.twcny.rr.com [24.58.48.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF5637B404 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cliff@localhost) by syr-24-58-48-195.twcny.rr.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) id g3IK3Nb00585; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 16:03:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: syr-24-58-48-195.twcny.rr.com: cliff set sender to cjc26@cornell.edu using -f Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 16:03:22 -0400 From: Cliff Crawford To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Message-ID: <20020418200322.GA564@cornell.edu> References: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <20020418145153.G64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418160116.H64286@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Organization: Big Red Hell X-Tagalog: Bababa ba? X-Message-Flag: Outlook sucks. Get a real email client. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 05:07:23PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > Ahh, sorry. I misunderstood. As best I can tell, it seems to > switch in a fixed order between all open applications. Basically, I > think it uses the order that the icons are displayed in the Dock > (left to right, in my case). But you *can* hit Alt-Shift-Tab to cycle in the opposite order (right to left). -- Cliff Crawford :: cjc26 at cornell dot edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 18 13:36:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2F537B416 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-9-62-147-161-65.dial.proxad.net [62.147.161.65]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F5B268 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:36:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 954 invoked by uid 1001); 18 Apr 2002 20:36:06 -0000 Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:36:06 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Cliff Crawford Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Message-ID: <20020418203606.GA928@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <20020418145153.G64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418160116.H64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418200322.GA564@cornell.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020418200322.GA564@cornell.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Crawford said on Apr 18, 2002 at 16:03:22: > On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 05:07:23PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > > > Ahh, sorry. I misunderstood. As best I can tell, it seems to > > switch in a fixed order between all open applications. Basically, I > > think it uses the order that the icons are displayed in the Dock > > (left to right, in my case). > > But you *can* hit Alt-Shift-Tab to cycle in the opposite order > (right to left). And, as a bonus, end up with RSI... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 18 13:51:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C3B37B404 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b219.otenet.gr [212.205.244.227]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3IKp9rc022107; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 23:51:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3IKp96M004327; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 23:51:09 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g3IKp8Oj004322; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 23:51:08 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 23:51:08 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Message-ID: <20020418205108.GB3398@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-04-18 05:41, f.johan.beisser wrote: > On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Actually, in common with many windows users, I just use alt-tab. > > i believe that the apple-tab key does the same thing, on MacOS. i don't > know how old the convention is, but it has spread to the point where just > about every window manager supports it now. there are still a couple > exceptions (blackbox, being one). Blackbox doesn't support ALT+TAB, but since it can be customized with bbkeys this is really not very wrong. Fluxbox, a spawn of blackbox, has several of these ``comonly used'' keyboard shortcuts configured in the default installation though :) I don't remember who it was, but it was someone on Undernet that pointed me at fluxbox, when I mentioned I liked blackbox a bit. - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 18 15:16:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA92737B417 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 15:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g3IMGRx26254; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 15:16:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 15:16:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd In-Reply-To: <20020418205108.GB3398@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: <20020418151418.J96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > Blackbox doesn't support ALT+TAB, but since it can be customized with > bbkeys this is really not very wrong. Fluxbox, a spawn of blackbox, > has several of these ``comonly used'' keyboard shortcuts configured in > the default installation though :) actually, the nice thing about fluxbox is that you can bind and customise all your keys.. similar to what bbkeys does for blackbox. > I don't remember who it was, but it was someone on Undernet that > pointed me at fluxbox, when I mentioned I liked blackbox a bit. i found it in ports, and figured i'd give it a shot. so far, i've not had a good reason to switch back to blackbox.. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 18 18:13: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A8DF37B400 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2002 18:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 25385 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2002 01:12:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15551.28443.507235.182630@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 20:12:59 -0500 To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd In-Reply-To: <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <20020418110814.A64286@lpt.ens.fr> <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020418053829.X96787-100000@pogo.caustic.org>, f.johan.beisser typed: > On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Actually, in common with many windows users, I just use alt-tab. KDE > > handles it very well (showing you the window titles in a non-intrusive > > way as you're cycling through them, so you can quickly hit the correct > > one), and sawfish/gnome is not bad either; in both cases it's much > > quicker than aiming a mouse pointer at the correct window, especially > > if you have a lot of open windows. Long time since I've used windows > > but my memory is that alt-tab isn't quite so nice there, though that > > key combination is I think a Microsoft invention. > i believe that the apple-tab key does the same thing, on MacOS. i don't > know how old the convention is, but it has spread to the point where just > about every window manager supports it now. there are still a couple > exceptions (blackbox, being one). That's a better way to do this, though I don't know of many window managers that use it. Quite a few can be convinced to give you a list of windows on a mouse click, then you select the one you want. The window manager I use - plpwm, in the plwm port - lets you invoke a list of windows - either all, or iconified, or visible - with a keystroke, then select one from the keyboard. I happen to have that bound to a two-keypress sequence to preserve most alt keys for my applications. That means I can activate any window in the system with three keystrokes, as opposed to two homing motions and a couple of clicks and pointing motions. Alt-tab and alt-backtab also work, along with alt-space for and alt-shift-space for rotating them. Finally, any of up to 9 visible windows can be activated with Control-digit. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 19 0:32:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 25F7337B421 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 00:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28857 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2002 07:32:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15551.51214.565995.577553@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 02:32:30 -0500 To: Nik Clayton Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd In-Reply-To: <20020419080217.M30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20011110215343.C961@bsd.alexe.org> <20020411182041.H45395@darius.2y.net> <20020411200534.A25472@ns.museum.rain.com> <20020412042041.GA80748@peitho.fxp.org> <20020412144054.GB2610@hades.hell.gr> <15550.9030.396432.30948@guru.mired.org> <20020418070634.I30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <15550.26754.195694.112510@guru.mired.org> <20020419080217.M30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020419080217.M30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org>, Nik Clayton typed: > On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 01:32:34AM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > > In <20020418070634.I30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org>, Nik Clayton typed: > > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 08:37:10PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > > The tricky part will be when the timing is warped by the window > > > > manager. I.e., if I've got a WM set to follow the mouse and not raise > > > > the active window, then activating a window is one action for me > > > > (point), but two (point and click) for a windows users. On the other > > > > hand, raising a window is easy for a windows users, because they can > > > > point anywhere in the window, whereas I have to point at the frame. > > > Not if Meta-LeftClick is bound to 'raise window' anywhere in the window > > > area. . . > > That's still slower, because it's one point and two keyclicks vs. one > > point and one keyclick. > On average I'm much faster, because most of the time I'm sending windows > to the bottom of the Z order. It means I don't have to waste time > minimising windows I don't need (which might explain the 17 open xterms > at the moment ). Yeah, but then you have to do that to get to each window, as opposed to getting to any window with three or four keystrokes. I just keep a few things I don't use very often iconified, and have four xterms open now. But they're all up and visible - except for the one on the monitor I leave turned off. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 19 6:58:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B80337B404 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 06:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.38] (root@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g3JDwek18088 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:58:41 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:57:57 +0200 To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Brad Knowles Subject: IPv6 addresses in mail headers? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks, I'm curious to know whether any of you have seen any IPv6 addresses in the headers of mail messages you have received or otherwise observed? I ask because some co-workers and I are working on some mail filtering tools that need to parse out IP addresses, and at the moment we're only dealing with IPv4 format. However, we use IPv6 internally to the company, and are trying to transition the entire network over to IPv6. So, we're sensitive to the issue of seeing IPv6 addresses in other contexts. We just don't know how common these things are out in the real world. Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 19 9:26: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146C937B417; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F95BEB7; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16836; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:26:05 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g3JGPtt89184; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Mike Meyer Cc: Nik Clayton , Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd References: <20011110215343.C961@bsd.alexe.org> <20020411182041.H45395@darius.2y.net> <20020411200534.A25472@ns.museum.rain.com> <20020412042041.GA80748@peitho.fxp.org> <20020412144054.GB2610@hades.hell.gr> <15550.9030.396432.30948@guru.mired.org> <20020418070634.I30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <15550.26754.195694.112510@guru.mired.org> <20020419080217.M30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <15551.51214.565995.577553@guru.mired.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 19 Apr 2002 09:25:55 -0700 In-Reply-To: <15551.51214.565995.577553@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer writes: > Yeah, but then you have to do that to get to each window, as opposed > to getting to any window with three or four keystrokes. I just keep a > few things I don't use very often iconified, and have four xterms open > now. But they're all up and visible - except for the one on the > monitor I leave turned off. Not quite the same subject, but I love my fvwm2's FvwmWinList, which, on my new 19" monitor, for which I've reserved a 1.3" wide by 7.0" tall chunk of screen on the right edge above the pager and below the xload+ xosview+time(UTC)date+xclock. Room for about 35 buttons with the left end of the window's title (or iconname?). You can keep selected windows off the list if you want and control their "cycling" behavior. I have up and down cycling keys (^Ins,^Del) and keys for favorite apps and desktops/pages. Navigation is helped (compared to menus) by the fact that you can start you "homing"/button-selection process while you're reaching for the mouse. I only wish that buttons are numbered like fvwm's window menu (M3) entries so I could select them from the keyboard. Mike's key-only scheme is nice, except that it takes a significant amount of time to find the proper menu entry AFTER quickly popping up the menu. (Probably still faster than 1-click mousing, tho.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 19 10: 0:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 031CB37B41A for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 67977 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2002 17:00:23 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15552.19751.465400.271543@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 12:00:23 -0500 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: Nik Clayton , Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd In-Reply-To: References: <20011110215343.C961@bsd.alexe.org> <20020411182041.H45395@darius.2y.net> <20020411200534.A25472@ns.museum.rain.com> <20020412042041.GA80748@peitho.fxp.org> <20020412144054.GB2610@hades.hell.gr> <15550.9030.396432.30948@guru.mired.org> <20020418070634.I30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <15550.26754.195694.112510@guru.mired.org> <20020419080217.M30474@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <15551.51214.565995.577553@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In , Gary W. Swearingen typed: > Mike Meyer writes: > Mike's key-only scheme is nice, except that it takes a > significant amount of time to find the proper menu entry AFTER quickly > popping up the menu. (Probably still faster than 1-click mousing, tho.) The trick here is 1) using the right menu, and 2) some smarts in the menu code. For the first one, I use the shortest menu available that will have my window in it. For the second one, the menus do things like put the bottommost window on top, so you can cycle through them easily. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 19 13:53:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5338B37B404 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 13:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07247 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:53:34 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:53:18 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm in the process of creating a router which will sit on an ISP's internal subnet, which uses unregistered addresses. The router's upstream interface will have an unregistered address, say, 10.X.Y.Z. Its downstream interfaces will have registered IPs, so it will look like this: _A.B.C.1 -> feeds A.B.C.0/25 10.X.Y.Z / ISP and Internet ------[Router]\_A.B.D.1 -> feeds A.B.D.0/26 10.X.Y/24 etc. But here's the rub. When the router communicates with the outside world on its own behalf (which it has to do; it's going to have some services running, including a a transparent Web cache), it needs to use one of its registered addresses as the source address, or the packets won't leave the ISP's internal network and get to the rest of the Internet. My first attempt at configuring a FreeBSD machine to be the router didn't work. When attempting to speak to the Internet at large, it used its 10.X.Y.Z address as the source address on its packets, and of course this caused them to stop at the ISP's gateway router (which is not doing NAT). As best I can tell, the trouble is that when a process running on the router itself opens an outbound socket with INADDR_ANY (which most networked applications do), it picks 10.X.Y.Z as the source address instead of A.B.C.1. What's the easiest way to specify the address to be used as the source address when an app opens an outbound socket with INADDR_ANY? I'm unclear about how the system is picking it now (I haven't yet found the place in the source where this decision is made), but it seems to be picking 10.X.Y.Z, which of course will not work. Also, if I'm doing an FTP install of FreeBSD on the router (I want to load 4.5-RELEASE-p3 rather than 4.5-RELEASE, to nuke the zlib, OpenSSH, and tcp memory leak bugs), how do I configure the interfaces, etc. from sysinstall so that I can install properly? Any help with this would be much appreciated. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 19 14: 8:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85ABE37B405 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07515; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:08:05 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419150613.035a8560@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:08:01 -0600 To: bmah@acm.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Is the snapshot server down? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200204181504.g3IF4egn011271@intruder.bmah.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020416232407.0220c340@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020416232407.0220c340@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:04 AM 4/18/2002, Bruce A. Mah wrote: >I think it's closer to "down". As of 10 April, releng4 was being >replaced with a newer machine. Not sure what the timeframe is for >finishing this. In the meantime, snapshots.jp.freebsd.org produces >excellent snapshot distributions. It does indeed. I've converted two companies' main servers to FreeBSD this week using the -p3 snapshot on that server. Takes about twice as long as using one on this side of the ocean, though..... One of the reasons I'd like to see it mirrored everywhere. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 19 14:15:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 170BC37B404 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0151.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.151] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16yfjB-0002w4-00; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:15:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3CC088D4.F21A3656@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:15:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > As best I can tell, the trouble is that when a process running on the > router itself opens an outbound socket with INADDR_ANY (which most > networked applications do), it picks 10.X.Y.Z as the source address > instead of A.B.C.1. INADDR_ANY means "I don't care". FreeBSD's "I don't care" is a bit different in implementation than Cisco's "I don't care". 8-(. Since you apparently *do* care, you must bind a specific address for outbound connections. Note that FreeBSD will still treat the port space for anonymous ports as if it were the INADDR_ANY space, so you will be limited to 65535 outbound connections, even though you have more than one IP address to bind outbound connections to. > What's the easiest way to specify the address to be used as the source > address when an app opens an outbound socket with INADDR_ANY? I'm unclear > about how the system is picking it now (I haven't yet found the place in > the source where this decision is made), but it seems to be picking > 10.X.Y.Z, which of course will not work. It picks the first address on the first interface on the subnet for the destination address in question, which may not be the "right" address. Probably you can make it work by setting the IP address to the one for the bridged network, and then setting the 10. address to be the alias, instead of the bridged address. Really, this is a bug in the FreeBSD code, in that it is not treating the IP address/port pair on the destination as the route to choose the "proper" origin address. You'll see the same thing in NFS TCP connections, where the remote host will believe you are trying to "spoof" packets because the response doesn't come from the same IP address to which the request was made. Short of rewriting a lot of the stack to reorder the anonymous address handling (e.g. to make it work like Cisco equipment does), it's probably best to just bind outgoing interfaces manually, and deal with the netmask in your proxy app. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 19 14:46:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7D0337B41E for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08056; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:46:10 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419152309.035a96d0@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:45:56 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3CC088D4.F21A3656@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:15 PM 4/19/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >Brett Glass wrote: >> As best I can tell, the trouble is that when a process running on the >> router itself opens an outbound socket with INADDR_ANY (which most >> networked applications do), it picks 10.X.Y.Z as the source address >> instead of A.B.C.1. > >INADDR_ANY means "I don't care". FreeBSD's "I don't care" is a >bit different in implementation than Cisco's "I don't care". 8-(. > >Since you apparently *do* care, you must bind a specific address >for outbound connections. Unfortunately, "you" consists of any application that might be running on the box. And few, if any, of the standard apps one is likely to use in administration offer you the option of specifying a source address explicitly. For example, suppose I want to bring in a patch or some code via anonymous FTP. I can't, because the Berkeley FTP client doesn't let you specify a source address. >> What's the easiest way to specify the address to be used as the source >> address when an app opens an outbound socket with INADDR_ANY? I'm unclear >> about how the system is picking it now (I haven't yet found the place in >> the source where this decision is made), but it seems to be picking >> 10.X.Y.Z, which of course will not work. > >It picks the first address on the first interface on the subnet >for the destination address in question, When the machine is going out to the Internet at large, the destination isn't on any of those subnets. >Probably you can make it work by setting the IP address to the >one for the bridged network, I'm not sure I follow. There's no bridged network here. >and then setting the 10. address >to be the alias, instead of the bridged address. The only addresses that are "legal" on the ISP's internal subnet are 10. addresses, by policy. I could try something like specifying the address as 127.0.0.2 with the 10. address as an alias.... The default IPFW rules would keep any packets with a source address of 127.0.0.2 from actually leaving the interface. But this is kinda dicey... and I don't know what the stack will do. Will apps wind up with sockets that have 127.0.0.2 as a source address? >Really, this is a bug in the FreeBSD code, in that it is not >treating the IP address/port pair on the destination as the >route to choose the "proper" origin address. Actually, it may just be an omission. Just as we can set a default gateway, it might be nice to be able to set a default IP for outbound sockets. (INADDR_ANY has different semantics when one is listening, of course, so it's only the outbound case that we need to worry about.) Or we might be able to set a flag that disqualifies an interface from having its address(es) used as the source address when INADDR_ANY is used. (This is probably done for lo0 now. I don't know for sure, but I'll bet that the code notices the LOOPBACK flag and disqualifies the interface.) The new flag could be set and viewed via ifconfig. >Short of rewriting a lot of the stack to reorder the anonymous >address handling (e.g. to make it work like Cisco equipment >does), There may be a single assignment statement somewhere that could be made to grab the address from a sysctl variable. Terry, you know the network code better than I.... In what file is INADDR_ANY converted into a specific source address? What logic is used to determine which addresses are suitable? >it's probably best to just bind outgoing interfaces >manually, and deal with the netmask in your proxy app. I won't want to rewrite every application I might use on the box! Adding a mod to the stack would be easier... unless there's some way to get the existing code to do The Right Thing. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 19 14:49:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A0B337B422 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08091; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:49:15 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419154705.035aba50@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:49:01 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3CC088D4.F21A3656@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:15 PM 4/19/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >INADDR_ANY means "I don't care". FreeBSD's "I don't care" is a >bit different in implementation than Cisco's "I don't care". 8-(. I think it really means, "I don't care, but I want it to work!" ;-) I don't think, for example, that the stack would pick an address from an interface that was not up, or from a loopback interface (more in my other message about this). So, maybe what's needed is a "don't choose this one" flag.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 19 18:46: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17CC737B404 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 18:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id A9810FC2; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 20:46:04 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 20:46:04 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? Message-ID: <20020419204604.K75155@over-yonder.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 02:53:18PM -0600 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 02:53:18PM -0600 I heard the voice of Brett Glass, and lo! it spake thus: > I'm in the process of creating a router which will sit on an ISP's > internal subnet, which uses unregistered addresses. The router's upstream > interface will have an unregistered address, say, 10.X.Y.Z. Its > downstream interfaces will have registered IPs, so it will look like this: > > _A.B.C.1 -> feeds > A.B.C.0/25 > 10.X.Y.Z / > ISP and Internet ------[Router]\_A.B.D.1 -> feeds A.B.D.0/26 > 10.X.Y/24 etc. So cheat, like I do. My router has its "real" address on both ed0 and tun0. Not exactly pretty, but it keeps on chugging. It accomplishes the same thing as having a serial port on a Cisco be "ip unnumbered e0" or the like. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 19 23:49:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A99A37B41B for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA13747; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:49:02 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420004621.02379880@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:48:18 -0600 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020419204604.K75155@over-yonder.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:46 PM 4/19/2002, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >My router has its "real" address on both ed0 and tun0. In other words, you give tun0 an address in rc.conf? And it works? (I don't have the tun device built into my kernel, but I suppose I can add it or maybe something else that's lightweight. Why does this work? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 1:19:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF35237B41B for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 01:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0177.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.177] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16yq5L-0001tN-00; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 01:19:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3CC1245C.EEE4ADE@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 01:18:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420004621.02379880@nospam.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:46 PM 4/19/2002, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > >My router has its "real" address on both ed0 and tun0. > > In other words, you give tun0 an address in rc.conf? And > it works? (I don't have the tun device built into my > kernel, but I suppose I can add it or maybe something > else that's lightweight. > > Why does this work? It works because you set the default route to "tun0", and so all packets are sent via that interface, and therefore from the address of that interface, and it has only one IP address: one the ISP can live with. The tunnelled packets are sent to the ISP through the tunnel destination, which is point-to-point forwarded. My previous suggestion was to make the routable IP address the source address by making it the canonical IP address for the interface, rather than one of the aliases, which should have resulted in it being used as the source address. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 1:48:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CE2137B405 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 01:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0177.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.177] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16yqXe-0003hn-00; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 01:48:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3CC12B36.E9DC0040@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 01:47:50 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419152309.035a96d0@nospam.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >INADDR_ANY means "I don't care". FreeBSD's "I don't care" is a > >bit different in implementation than Cisco's "I don't care". 8-(. > > > >Since you apparently *do* care, you must bind a specific address > >for outbound connections. > > Unfortunately, "you" consists of any application that might be > running on the box. Yes. > And few, if any, of the standard apps one is > likely to use in administration offer you the option of specifying > a source address explicitly. For example, suppose I want to bring > in a patch or some code via anonymous FTP. I can't, because the > Berkeley FTP client doesn't let you specify a source address. All FTP servers allow it, and so do "bind" and "sendmail". The code that doesn't allow it could be said to be broken. > >It picks the first address on the first interface on the subnet > >for the destination address in question, > > When the machine is going out to the Internet at large, the > destination isn't on any of those subnets. Then it goes out the interface whose IP address is on the same subnet as the default route. In your case, this will unavoidably be a 10.x address. > >Probably you can make it work by setting the IP address to the > >one for the bridged network, > > I'm not sure I follow. There's no bridged network here. Then I don't understand how the ISP is tunneling packets from the assigned published IP addresses out to the real internet, or back. It *must* be doinging bridging for you. The 10.x addresses you are using are, by definition, non-routable. > >and then setting the 10. address > >to be the alias, instead of the bridged address. > > The only addresses that are "legal" on the ISP's > internal subnet are 10. addresses, by policy. I > could try something like specifying the address as > 127.0.0.2 with the 10. address as an alias.... The > default IPFW rules would keep any packets with a source > address of 127.0.0.2 from actually leaving the interface. > But this is kinda dicey... and I don't know what the > stack will do. Will apps wind up with sockets that have > 127.0.0.2 as a source address? They might. This will not work. I would have to know how your ISP expects things to work, for me to be able to tell you how to configure your FreeBSD box to work they way they expect things to work (if it's even possible). > >Really, this is a bug in the FreeBSD code, in that it is not > >treating the IP address/port pair on the destination as the > >route to choose the "proper" origin address. > > Actually, it may just be an omission. Just as we can set a > default gateway, it might be nice to be able to set a default > IP for outbound sockets. (INADDR_ANY has different semantics when > one is listening, of course, so it's only the outbound case > that we need to worry about.) Or we might be able to set a flag > that disqualifies an interface from having its address(es) used as > the source address when INADDR_ANY is used. (This is probably done > for lo0 now. I don't know for sure, but I'll bet that the code > notices the LOOPBACK flag and disqualifies the interface.) The > new flag could be set and viewed via ifconfig. No. It is a bug. The problem is that the route code does not distinguish multiple default routes, nor does it distinguish aliases from their interfaces. Because of this, you route out an interface, not out a source IP address on an interface. Without routing out a specific source IP, your packets get the first IP address on the interface. It's somewhat more complicated than that because of your use of multiple local routable subnets. Really, the BSD code does two things: 1) Routes packets destined for a local subnet out of the interface whose netmask of the IP address that you are sending too applied to the IP address of the interface result in the "best match". THat is, if you have two interfaces that match, and one is a /24 and the other is a /28, it will pick the /28 to send. For equal interfaces, the one it picks is round-robin'ed. 2) Routes all other packets out the default route (and it has only a single default route, which is not a good thing, in a lot of ways). The easiest way to see the deficiency in the FreeBSD networking code is to ask yourself "If I buy a system, put a single gigabit interface in it, and add 2 4 port 10/100 cards, how can I build a FreeBSD based switch, using this hardware?". The first thing you need to realize is that switches don't have assigned IP addresses to ports; a lot of the obvious problems will fall out at you from that point forward. > >Short of rewriting a lot of the stack to reorder the anonymous > >address handling (e.g. to make it work like Cisco equipment > >does), > > There may be a single assignment statement somewhere that could > be made to grab the address from a sysctl variable. Terry, you > know the network code better than I.... In what file is INADDR_ANY > converted into a specific source address? What logic is used to > determine which addresses are suitable? You could pound on the code, and abuse it in such a way as to make it do what you suggest,at the same time putting enough special cases into the code path that you bloat the normal 94 instructions for the TCP/IP fastpath into some huge number that would prevent your suggested changes ever being committed back to FreeBSD. I would not recommend doing that. The issue is the routing code, which identifies an interface, not an IP address, on the target network, or, if one does not exist, then clones one for the default route. This is ~line 950 of /sys/netinet/ip_output.c; the "ro" is passed in as a parameter, which is sent down as a result of the inp_route element of the inpcb for the tcpcb for the TCP connection (the "internet protocol control block"; see Stevens). Changing this is not easy; you can't "just do it", because there is a pseudo-header in the TCP packet that is considered as part of the checksum, which contains the source and destination addresses. The route selection occurs at the TCP output layer, not the IP. It affects both the TCP and the IP checksums. Therefore, if you wish to interfere with the source IP address selection, you have to do it in the tcp_output code... or, more properly, before the call to tcp_fillheaders(). Probably, it would make the most sense to set it at connection time, which is (and should be) an incredibly difficult thing to do, for an unbound socket. > >it's probably best to just bind outgoing interfaces > >manually, and deal with the netmask in your proxy app. > > I won't want to rewrite every application I might use on the > box! Adding a mod to the stack would be easier... unless there's > some way to get the existing code to do The Right Thing. The suggestion in the "sockets2" working group has been to add a "sendfrom" and "sendfromto" system call to allow specification of a source IP address from which the packet is intended to have originated. For obvious reasons, I think this is a bad idea. But either way has you rewriting applications... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 1:51:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A75537B400 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 01:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0177.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.177] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16yqaw-0005BO-00; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 01:51:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3CC12C03.D15864DB@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 01:51:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419154705.035aba50@nospam.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:15 PM 4/19/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > >INADDR_ANY means "I don't care". FreeBSD's "I don't care" is a > >bit different in implementation than Cisco's "I don't care". 8-(. > > I think it really means, "I don't care, but I want it to work!" ;-) > > I don't think, for example, that the stack would pick an address > from an interface that was not up, or from a loopback interface > (more in my other message about this). No; it couldn't. That's an artifact of the routing code not returning a route to the source of the connection establishment (for inbound connections) or the interface capable of reaching the destination (for the outbound). > So, maybe what's needed is a "don't choose this one" flag.... If you are going to do something this God-Awful-Hackish(tm), then you should just use tun0, set the same IP ad on one of the externally routable interfaces, and then set the default route to go through the tunnel. It's fugly, but at this point it's pretty obvious that what you want is a working hack, not correct code. 8-|. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 10:21: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606FB37B405 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19867; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:20:50 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420111258.021d7270@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:20:43 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3CC1245C.EEE4ADE@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420004621.02379880@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:18 AM 4/20/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >It works because you set the default route to "tun0", and >so all packets are sent via that interface, and therefore >from the address of that interface, and it has only one IP >address: one the ISP can live with. I'm not sure how this would work. The ISP can "live with" any address, but the source address must be a routable address to make it out of their internal network. If I give tun0 a 10.x address, the packets won't make it out to the Internet. If I give it a "real" address that belongs to one of the subnets, the packets will ultimately go the wrong way. >My previous suggestion was to make the routable IP address >the source address by making it the canonical IP address >for the interface, rather than one of the aliases, which >should have resulted in it being used as the source address. The question is, what routable IP address should that be? The address of one of the internal interfaces? An address from one of the internal subnets that's not assigned to an interface? I'm confused. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 10:22:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6986737B423 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id E65DFFC5; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 12:22:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 12:22:12 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? Message-ID: <20020420122212.A27415@over-yonder.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420004621.02379880@nospam.lariat.org> <3CC1245C.EEE4ADE@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420111258.021d7270@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420111258.021d7270@nospam.lariat.org>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 11:20:43AM -0600 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 11:20:43AM -0600 I heard the voice of Brett Glass, and lo! it spake thus: > > >My previous suggestion was to make the routable IP address > >the source address by making it the canonical IP address > >for the interface, rather than one of the aliases, which > >should have resulted in it being used as the source address. > > The question is, what routable IP address should that be? > The address of one of the internal interfaces? An address > from one of the internal subnets that's not assigned to > an interface? I'm confused. The same routable address you have on its internal interface, with a /32 netmask, and then the default route pointed out the interface. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 10:44:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FF0037B405 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20044; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:44:06 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420113621.021dfd00@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:44:01 -0600 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020420122212.A27415@over-yonder.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420111258.021d7270@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420004621.02379880@nospam.lariat.org> <3CC1245C.EEE4ADE@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420111258.021d7270@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:22 AM 4/20/2002, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >The same routable address you have on its internal interface, with a /32 >netmask, and then the default route pointed out the interface. I'd considered this, but wasn't sure about the effects of having an address assigned to two interfaces simultaneously. How would this affect responses to ARP queries? Other options I've considered are: 1) Using natd to change the souce addresses on outgoing packets with a source addresses in 10.x to something routable (that is, having the machine do NAT for its own internal processes). Would this work? 2) Running local processes in a "jail" (assuming that this would force their IP source addresses to the address assigned to the "jail...." Would it? I'd need to figure out how to configure this, because the natd documentation doesn't really explain how it works). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 10:50:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0635E37B42F for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20107; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:50:25 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420112056.021aaec0@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:50:21 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3CC12B36.E9DC0040@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419152309.035a96d0@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:47 AM 4/20/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >> And few, if any, of the standard apps one is >> likely to use in administration offer you the option of specifying >> a source address explicitly. For example, suppose I want to bring >> in a patch or some code via anonymous FTP. I can't, because the >> Berkeley FTP client doesn't let you specify a source address. > >All FTP servers allow it, and so do "bind" and "sendmail". The >code that doesn't allow it could be said to be broken. I'm talking about "client" programs (e.g. ftp(1)), not servers like ftpd(8). >> I'm not sure I follow. There's no bridged network here. > >Then I don't understand how the ISP is tunneling packets from >the assigned published IP addresses out to the real internet, >or back. It *must* be doinging bridging for you. The 10.x >addresses you are using are, by definition, non-routable. It's doing hierarchical routing on 10.x. Their internal 10.x.x.x network is broken up into /24 subnets, one of which exists here. (They have a little router here, and a few other routers tie into it.) Packets for the "real" addresses are to be routed to a specific 10.x address which will be owned by the router I'm putting up. >I would have to know how >your ISP expects things to work, for me to be able to tell >you how to configure your FreeBSD box to work they way they >expect things to work (if it's even possible). See above. >The problem is that the route code does not distinguish multiple >default routes, nor does it distinguish aliases from their >interfaces. I've looked at the code you mentioned, and the problem seems to go deeper than that: the routing code is so intertwined with the rest of the stack that whenever one opens a socket with INADDR_ANY, the routing table is consulted to figure out how to assign a source address! It seems to me that there should be a bit of separation between the machine's internal "router" and the code that handles sockets for local processes... as if the environment where local processes was running were a separate machine. But things are so intertwingled that this separation does not exist. >You could pound on the code, and abuse it in such a way as >to make it do what you suggest,at the same time putting >enough special cases into the code path that you bloat the >normal 94 instructions for the TCP/IP fastpath into some >huge number that would prevent your suggested changes ever >being committed back to FreeBSD. Would it affect the "fastpath?" As I understand it, a socket's source address is defined when it's opened and stays that way thereafter. (Correct me if I'm wrong there, but isn't a socket uniquely defined during its lifetime by the tuple of {source address, source port, destination address, destination port}?) All that would need to be altered would be the *initial* decision about the source address used. Right? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 10:53: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B682437B405 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20144; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:53:01 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420115120.021aeb50@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:52:54 -0600 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:44 AM 4/20/2002, I wrote: >2) Running local processes in a "jail" (assuming that this would >force their IP source addresses to the address assigned to the >"jail...." Would it? I'd need to figure out how to configure this, >because the natd documentation doesn't really explain how it works). Oops.... that last sentence is clearly out of place. It belonged at the end of item (1) (I'm obliviously not awake yet this morning.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 12:25:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8386537B419 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 12:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b149.otenet.gr [212.205.244.157]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3KJPD5q003303; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 22:25:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3KJPD76002424; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 22:25:13 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g3KFwPOc001428; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:58:25 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:58:25 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" Cc: Peter Leftwich , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-02:21.tcpip Message-ID: <20020420155825.GB1199@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020420022630.C88054@mail.webmonster.de> <20020419203037.S39174-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <20020420031459.A88998@mail.webmonster.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020420031459.A88998@mail.webmonster.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Moved to -chat, since this is no longer a security thing :P ] On 2002-04-20 03:14, Karsten W. Rohrbach wrote: > Peter Leftwich(Hostmaster@Video2Video.Com)@2002.04.19 20:50:16 +0000: > > I always log in as root - The thinking is... rm doesn't scare me > > one bit! :) > > sensing some amount of irony here, yes a new user logs in as root, > because he got a "blank" system, with (hopefully) limited userland. > i doesn't matter how many times you tell him "no do not log in as > root", he will understand it when he executed his first more complex > shell command containing "rm" ;-) Which almost invariably is ``rm -fr /'' or similar ... ... while the Windows partitions are mounted read-write too. Ah, you got to love this Murphy guy ;-) Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 15:55:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server2.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0911B37B405 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 15:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server2.highperformance.net (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3KMr7uL000441; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 15:53:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 15:53:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server2.highperformance.net To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" , Peter Leftwich , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-02:21.tcpip In-Reply-To: <20020420155825.GB1199@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > Which almost invariably is ``rm -fr /'' or similar ... > ... while the Windows partitions are mounted read-write too. > > Ah, you got to love this Murphy guy ;-) Ah yes. I remember my painful lesson well. I was cleaning up after many iterations of a apache+php+ssl build. # rm -rf * .log :: waiting :: :: waiting :: :: realization sets in :: ^C # ls -la bash: ls: command not found :: cursing in disbelief :: # pwd bash: pwd: command not found :: more cursing in disbelief :: :: wondering how far it got :: :: more cursing in disbelief :: :: realizing it got too damn far :: :: realizing that the tape backup should be the first priority :: :: praying that the error didn't make it to the RAID where all the important stuff is :: :: reaching for Redhat CD :: Indeed, if one hasn't learned, one will. Go ahead, log in as root all the time. I didn't get bit until I had a couple years under my belt. I figured that if it hadn't bit me yet, it never would. I put my $PWD in my prompt after that too. :) Later, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 19:18: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E42637B417 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0111.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.111] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16z6v4-0001A9-00; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:17:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3CC22126.9F28CE8A@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:17:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420111258.021d7270@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420004621.02379880@nospam.lariat.org> <3CC1245C.EEE4ADE@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420111258.021d7270@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420113621.021dfd00@nospam.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:22 AM 4/20/2002, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > >The same routable address you have on its internal interface, with a /32 > >netmask, and then the default route pointed out the interface. > > I'd considered this, but wasn't sure about the effects of having > an address assigned to two interfaces simultaneously. How would > this affect responses to ARP queries? The answer to this is "who cares, all you really care about is that the packet source address is a routable address, so the packet makes it through the ISP". We are talking about packets sent out sockets bound to an interface at accept time... outbound connections only. For the ARP stuff: the answer to the "who has" will be the machine where the IP is configured, out the interfaces on the machine where the request was received. You need to "man arp", and pay specific attention to the "pub" argument to the "-s" option. FreeBSD is already broken here somewhat, in that it will respond to ARP requests for IP addresses configured on the loopback interface. This means that you can't use FreeBSD HTTP servers with Arrowpoint, Lucent, etc. load balancers that have been configured to use DSR (see Appendix B of the O'Reilly "Server Load Balamcing" book). So in the worst case, you aren't going to break anything that isn't already broken. > Other options I've considered are: > > 1) Using natd to change the souce addresses on outgoing packets > with a source addresses in 10.x to something routable (that is, > having the machine do NAT for its own internal processes). Would > this work? The NAT can't do block address translation, it can only do 1:N translation (not N:N translation). This is the main reason that the NAT-based VPN code is only suitable for clients coming into a corporate network, and why people keep talking about using a point-to-point IPSEC connection to tunnel VLAN trunking over. > 2) Running local processes in a "jail" (assuming that this would > force their IP source addresses to the address assigned to the > "jail...." Would it? I'd need to figure out how to configure this, > because the natd documentation doesn't really explain how it works). No, it would not force the source address. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 19:36: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E5837B41E for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0111.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.111] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16z7CT-0006m5-00; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:35:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3CC2255D.6C9B4453@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:35:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419152309.035a96d0@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420112056.021aaec0@nospam.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:47 AM 4/20/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> And few, if any, of the standard apps one is > >> likely to use in administration offer you the option of specifying > >> a source address explicitly. For example, suppose I want to bring > >> in a patch or some code via anonymous FTP. I can't, because the > >> Berkeley FTP client doesn't let you specify a source address. > > > >All FTP servers allow it, and so do "bind" and "sendmail". The > >code that doesn't allow it could be said to be broken. > > I'm talking about "client" programs (e.g. ftp(1)), not servers > like ftpd(8). No, you are talking about a program that operates as a proxy; for the rest of the Internet, it looks like a client, but is in fact a server. I know that it's convenient to ignore it's server nature, in order to be able to complain about the address binding, but it's not really accurate to do that. How about this: if you can come up with an algorithm that will "do what I want" for you for all cases, without crippling the fast path, how about you tell us, and we can think about implementing it? > >> I'm not sure I follow. There's no bridged network here. > > > >Then I don't understand how the ISP is tunneling packets from > >the assigned published IP addresses out to the real internet, > >or back. It *must* be doinging bridging for you. The 10.x > >addresses you are using are, by definition, non-routable. > > It's doing hierarchical routing on 10.x. Their internal 10.x.x.x > network is broken up into /24 subnets, one of which exists here. > (They have a little router here, and a few other routers tie > into it.) Packets for the "real" addresses are to be routed to > a specific 10.x address which will be owned by the router I'm > putting up. So you are trying to make the FreeBSD box act like a Cisco router. OK, now we are back to the fact that Cisco routers treat route endpoints as IP addresses instead of interfaces, and it's the FreeBSD routing code ... or rather, the route selection for the inpcb, on connection time. As I said before, FreeBSD only considers the destination address when deciding on a route, and this is technically the wrong thing to do for this particualr weird setup you have. If you want to actually disclose the information, it's not a problem. Another thing that would likely work is to not try to run the proxy services on the same machine that's acting as the router. > >I would have to know how > >your ISP expects things to work, for me to be able to tell > >you how to configure your FreeBSD box to work they way they > >expect things to work (if it's even possible). > > See above. Your information is insufficient. A block diagram, with a dotted line around the blocks you expect to jam into a single FreeBSD box would be useful. It really feels like you want something to work that we will all say "you can't expect that to work!", so rather than giving us the opportunity to say that, you are parcelling out the information about the configuration in small chunks, so as to optimize the chances that we will give you the answer you want to hear. I have to say: we are not trying to put one over on you, and "hide" information from you about how to do what you want, so it's really not necessary. Why don't you tell us what an already working system looks like? A system like that already has to exist, if the ISP has more than one customer. > >The problem is that the route code does not distinguish multiple > >default routes, nor does it distinguish aliases from their > >interfaces. > > I've looked at the code you mentioned, and the problem seems to > go deeper than that: the routing code is so intertwined with > the rest of the stack that whenever one opens a socket with > INADDR_ANY, the routing table is consulted to figure out how to > assign a source address! Yes. This is how it works. That's what I said. > It seems to me that there should be > a bit of separation between the machine's internal "router" and > the code that handles sockets for local processes... as if > the environment where local processes was running were a separate > machine. But things are so intertwingled that this separation > does not exist. Arrrrrrrrgh! Why don't you just post what I post back at me, instead of saying the same thing, and spin-doctoring it? Yes, this is what is happening: the route is via the interface, rather than via the IP address, on the way out. > >You could pound on the code, and abuse it in such a way as > >to make it do what you suggest,at the same time putting > >enough special cases into the code path that you bloat the > >normal 94 instructions for the TCP/IP fastpath into some > >huge number that would prevent your suggested changes ever > >being committed back to FreeBSD. > > Would it affect the "fastpath?" As I understand it, a socket's source > address is defined when it's opened and stays that way thereafter. > (Correct me if I'm wrong there, but isn't a socket uniquely defined during > its lifetime by the tuple of {source address, source port, destination > address, destination port}?) All that would need to be altered would be > the *initial* decision about the source address used. Right? Not as such. It's uniquely identified at the host by the IP/port destination tuple, *NOT* by *both* the source and destination tuples. The problem is in the route assignment lookup, and the selection of the outbound IP address *based on half the information*. I told you: the FreeBSD TCP stack is not like the Cisco TCP stack. In order to hack this properly, you would have to put two more compares in the tcp_output and ip_output code, or you would have to hack up the "clone" route to have different precedence ordering of the IP addresses associated with the interface. The new SYN cache code complicates this type of hack considerably. The differences are obvious when you try to consider how you would switch traffic in the context of the FreeBSD stack, without doing an assignment of an IP address to the downlink port(s) on the FreeBSD based switch. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 19:36:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C57B137B416 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0111.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.111] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16z7DJ-0007Vy-00; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:36:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3CC22590.2EEDE1F1@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:36:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420004621.02379880@nospam.lariat.org> <3CC1245C.EEE4ADE@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420111258.021d7270@nospam.lariat.org> <20020420122212.A27415@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > Brett Glass, and lo! it spake thus: > > >My previous suggestion was to make the routable IP address > > >the source address by making it the canonical IP address > > >for the interface, rather than one of the aliases, which > > >should have resulted in it being used as the source address. > > > > The question is, what routable IP address should that be? > > The address of one of the internal interfaces? An address > > from one of the internal subnets that's not assigned to > > an interface? I'm confused. > > The same routable address you have on its internal interface, with a /32 > netmask, and then the default route pointed out the interface. Yes. Exactly. Why are we having to repeat ourselves? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 19:54:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796F437B417 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 19:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25046; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 20:54:25 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420204617.021f4470@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 20:54:21 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3CC22126.9F28CE8A@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420111258.021d7270@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420004621.02379880@nospam.lariat.org> <3CC1245C.EEE4ADE@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420111258.021d7270@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420113621.021dfd00@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:17 PM 4/20/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Other options I've considered are: >> >> 1) Using natd to change the souce addresses on outgoing packets >> with a source addresses in 10.x to something routable (that is, >> having the machine do NAT for its own internal processes). Would >> this work? > >The NAT can't do block address translation, it can only do 1:N >translation (not N:N translation). Ah, but we only NEED to do 1:N translation. We need to translate the source address of 10.X.Y.Z to A.B.C.1 when going outbound on the upstream interface. I believe that ipnat is capable of doing this with a "map" rule, because it sits outside the kernel. But I don't know if natd (which is what I'd prefer to use because it's able to do port-specific NAT ore gracefully) can do this. >> 2) Running local processes in a "jail" (assuming that this would >> force their IP source addresses to the address assigned to the >> "jail...." Would it? > >No, it would not force the source address. Are you sure? I haven't played much with jails, but I do note the following on the jail(8) man page: > jail.socket_unixiproute_only > The jail functionality binds an IPv4 address to each jail, and lim- > its access to other network addresses in the IPv4 space that may be > available in the host environment. I had always interpreted this to mean that the apps operating in the jail were limited -- both when they listened and when they opened outbound sockets -- to using the jail's IPv4 address. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 20 21:21:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 310A037B416 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 21:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA25771; Sat, 20 Apr 2002 22:20:45 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020420205440.021f37b0@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 22:20:41 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: How to control address used by INADDR_ANY? Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3CC2255D.6C9B4453@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020419144005.0358c610@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020419152309.035a96d0@nospam.lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020420112056.021aaec0@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:35 PM 4/20/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >No, you are talking about a program that operates as a proxy; Only in the particular case of the caching proxy. I want to be able to run other programs there that are not proxies at all and have them communicate properly with the Net. >How about this: if you can come up with an algorithm that will >"do what I want" for you for all cases, without crippling the >fast path, how about you tell us, and we can think about >implementing it? OK, here goes. First, let's restate the problem. The stack is choosing a source address for an outbound socket opened with a source address of INADDR_ANY based on the routing table at the time the socket is opened. It's saying, "Let's use one of our addresses on the subnet to which we'd route outbound packets which are headed for the destination address." This is normally not a bad idea, since it saves a bit of routing overhead within the system. But we need to be able to disqualify a subnet or interface from this process in situations where this algorithm would produce an undesirable result. As I understand it, you can do this on a Cisco router by saying that the interface is up but "unnumbered." But this isn't a perfect solution either. (For example, in my case, when I want to send a packet to a device inside the ISP's intranet, I want my machine to know that it has an address on that subnet, respond to ARP "who-has" requests, be able to treat them as local, etc.) What I want is to specify that processes on my local machine not use source addresses from that subnet even if they specify INADDR_ANY. To do this, I want to be able to do one of three things: 1) Tag an address assigned to an interface as being disqualified from the selection process. (It might be useful to turn this bit on by default when one assigns an unregistered address to an interface.) This would solve the problem automagically in the case of intranets that use unregistered addresses (such as many corporate WANs or the network of the ISP I'm dealing with). But it wouldn't interfere with NAT. 2) Specify a default source address for processes on the local machine that is independent of the routing table. (An "auto" option, indicated by an address of 0.0.0.0, would bring back the old algorithm.) This would actually speed up the opening of sockets, since no scan of the routing table would be required to pick a source address for the socket. And it wouldn't violate the semantics of INADDR_ANY.... The process opening the socket has indicated no preference, so why not let the administrator specify one?) 3) Do both of the above, since each might be useful in specific situations. >> It's doing hierarchical routing on 10.x. Their internal 10.x.x.x >> network is broken up into /24 subnets, one of which exists here. >> (They have a little router here, and a few other routers tie >> into it.) Packets for the "real" addresses are to be routed to >> a specific 10.x address which will be owned by the router I'm >> putting up. > >So you are trying to make the FreeBSD box act like a Cisco router. Not really. But why should there be things that a Cisco router can't do that a FreeBSD router can't? >As I said before, FreeBSD only considers the destination address >when deciding on a route, and this is technically the wrong thing >to do for this particualr weird setup you have. It's really doing something different than deciding on a route.... It's deciding what source address to drop into the socket. Again, since a socket is defined by the tuple {source address, source port, destination address, destination port} and the source address must be one to which the other machine can reply (it can't be INADDR_ANY, which is zero), the machine must pick something at the time the socket is opened and then stick with it, come what may. Even if the routing table changes so that a different address would have been picked at a later time. >Another thing that would likely work is to not try to run the >proxy services on the same machine that's acting as the router. It's the best place to run them, especially when one is doing interception caching. The CPU load from the routing is relatively light, so there are plenty of resources available for the caching. Didn't the InterJet do this? >Your information is insufficient. A block diagram, with a dotted >line around the blocks you expect to jam into a single FreeBSD >box would be useful. +-----------------+ | Router | Routable Rest of world (via ----| +--------------+|--- Subnet 1 Subnet 10 intranet) | |Interception || | | caching || | |--------------||--- Routable | | RBL zone xfer|| Subnet 2 | |--------------|| etc. | | DNS, DHCP || | |--------------|| | | sshd || | |--------------|| | | Utilities for|| | | maintenance || | | (e.g. ftp, || | |CVSup, scp || | +--------------+| +-----------------+ In other words, really just some basic firewall functions and interception caching. The box might not actually be running DNS or DHCP in all cases, but it'd be nice to be able to, so I've added them to the diagram. Note that to do DNS zone transfers, CVSup, FTP, or scp as a client, the box will need to be able to get to the rest of the world from local processes. >It really feels like you want something to work that we will all >say "you can't expect that to work!", It's perfectly reasonable to expect it to work. The only curve I've thrown it that it has not been able to handle is that its upstream network is an intranet with unroutable addresses. Not unusual either within ISPs or within corporate WANs. >Arrrrrrrrgh! Why don't you just post what I post back at >me, instead of saying the same thing, and spin-doctoring it? You're annoyed that I agree with you? ;-) >> Would it affect the "fastpath?" As I understand it, a socket's source >> address is defined when it's opened and stays that way thereafter. >> (Correct me if I'm wrong there, but isn't a socket uniquely defined during >> its lifetime by the tuple of {source address, source port, destination >> address, destination port}?) All that would need to be altered would be >> the *initial* decision about the source address used. Right? > >Not as such. It's uniquely identified at the host by the IP/port >destination tuple, *NOT* by *both* the source and destination >tuples. This can't be. When several clients connect to a server's well-known port at the server, the sessions must be distinguished by the source addresses and ports. If the source addresses are allowed to change, the server won't know which client (or session) is which! >In order to hack this properly, you would have to put two more >compares in the tcp_output and ip_output code, An option that assigned a fixed source address couldn't help but be a net win, because it would avoid a traversal of a linked list of routing table entries. Likewise, disqualifying an address would mean having a flag or leaving that routing table entry off a linked list. The latter would actually speed up the scan of the list because the list would be shorter! And one way to implement the fixed source address would be to aim the pointer to the linked list at a list with exactly one entry: one specifying the fixed address. This would introduce no more compares. So, you see, there's no need to add cycles. It's just a matter of determining whether adding a compare would be a net win. (It might be, if it shortened the code path most of the time.) >or you would have >to hack up the "clone" route to have different precedence ordering >of the IP addresses associated with the interface. The new SYN >cache code complicates this type of hack considerably. I don't understand. Why would this be? The SYN cache code deals with sockets on which the machine is listening, not outbound sockets. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message