From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 6 6:39:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B4137B401 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 06:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m20.unixathome.org (m20.unixathome.org [66.11.168.227]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C57343E42 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 06:39:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: by m20.unixathome.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3F59F7A11; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m20.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA47C1F05; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:36:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@m20.unixathome.org To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Alexandr Kovalenko , Baldur Gislason , Subject: Re: Mail list In-Reply-To: <20021006032336.GA72061@xor.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: <20021006093524.M98148-100000@m20.unixathome.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 06:48:15PM +0300, Alexandr Kovalenko wrote: > > Hello, Kris Kennaway! > > > > On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 01:00:04AM -0700, you wrote: > > > > > > My mail server was down for a couple of days and now I moved the ma= il to > > > > another server, seems to be working fine but I don't seem to be rec= eiving any > > > > mail from the freebsd lists anymore. Does it automatically unsubscr= ibe me if > > > > it gets warnings from my secondary servers about delayed delivery? > > > It unsubscribes you if mail bounces for an extended period. > > Is it standard feature of Majordomo or where can I get info on how to > > add this to my majordomo lists? (I run them on UAFUG). > > I have no idea, sorry. I've never set up/administered majordomo myself. FWIW: There is such a tool but I can=E8t recall the details. Try the majordomo site and/or mailing lists. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 6 9:26:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCE937B401 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.comcast.net (smtp.comcast.net [24.153.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03A9043E86 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:26:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomifeh@earthlink.net) Received: from earthlink.net (bgp586692bgs.jdover01.nj.comcast.net [68.39.202.147]) by mtaout03.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.4 (built Aug 5 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H3K009PKIZZNU@mtaout03.icomcast.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 06 Oct 2002 12:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 12:26:27 -0400 From: Larry Sica Subject: Re: Mail list In-reply-to: <20021006032336.GA72061@xor.obsecurity.org> To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Alexandr Kovalenko , Baldur Gislason , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <5D2532E6-D948-11D6-9601-000393A335A2@earthlink.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, October 5, 2002, at 11:23 PM, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 06:48:15PM +0300, Alexandr Kovalenko wrote: >> Hello, Kris Kennaway! >> >> On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 01:00:04AM -0700, you wrote: >> >>>> My mail server was down for a couple of days and now I moved the >>>> mail to >>>> another server, seems to be working fine but I don't seem to be >>>> receiving any >>>> mail from the freebsd lists anymore. Does it automatically >>>> unsubscribe me if >>>> it gets warnings from my secondary servers about delayed delivery? >>> It unsubscribes you if mail bounces for an extended period. >> Is it standard feature of Majordomo or where can I get info on how to >> add this to my majordomo lists? (I run them on UAFUG). > > I have no idea, sorry. I've never set up/administered majordomo > myself. > Majordomo sort of does this. It has a perl script called bounce that directs what happens. It comes with majordomo. The script has instructions as well. HTH --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 6 18:32: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E1E37B401 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 18:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB75143E86 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 18:32:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20021007013204.PKVZ6431.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@localhost.localdomain>; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 01:32:04 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g971YnoS063263; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 18:34:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g971YibZ063260; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 18:34:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: "Oliver Fromme writes:"@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: grub boot loader or freebsd boot loader References: <200210061033.g96AXQoT034492@lurza.secnetix.de> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 06 Oct 2002 18:34:43 -0700 In-Reply-To: <200210061033.g96AXQoT034492@lurza.secnetix.de> Message-ID: <1b8z1b8218.z1b@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 140 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've moved this to -chat as the thread is going on too long for -questions. I hope that's enough reason to ignore your "reply-to". Oliver Fromme writes: > Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > Nobody said the kernel would be considered a derivative of any > > bootloader, but a CD which contains both is a derivative of both. > > Which is not a violation of the GPL. You can distribute > GPL and non-GPL software on the same CD, or put it on the > same FTP site, or whatever. That's what everyone does. > We do it, Sun does it, etc. Sometimes you may; sometimes you may not. It depends on the nature of the software involved. For an obvious example, you may not do it with a GPL'd library and a closed-source program which uses the library. (According to some copyleftists, you may not even distribute the program without the library.) In the loader case, it's debatable and too risky. > The problem with the GPL arises as soon as you merge code > from GPL software with other code, e.g. by taking parts > of its source and compiling it together to produce one > object file or executable, or by linking them together > (unless it is only LGPL and not real GPL). That's true, except that there are other problems too. Copyright law doesn't care about compiling and linking; it cares about the publishing of derivative works, among other things. The problem is that the GPL is very unclear about which derivative works it allows to be legally published without GPLing the "entire whole". A GPL quote: These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it. Thus, it is not the intent of this section to claim rights or contest your rights to work written entirely by you; rather, the intent is to exercise the right to control the distribution of derivative or collective works based on the Program. Note well the last sentence which refers to "collective works". Given the "mere aggregation" clause, it comes down to a debate about the meaning of the second sentence quoted above, particularly the phrase "independent and separate works". The sequel of the sentence makes things worse by saying that this escape clause is only good "when you distribute them as separate works", another clause with debatable meaning. And note that it says "not derived from the Program [*AND*] can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves"; not "*OR*". Would our kernel, published with a GPL'd boot loader which is operationally just a kind of prefix chunk of the kernel, be considered to be independent and separate and to be distributed as a separate work, in this case? You might think so, but I don't see how you can be so sure that the owner(s) of GRUB (or GAG) might not think so some time in the future after the alleged copyright infringement has occurred. It would be too risky to make such a guess, IMO and others'. > > And remember that you may boot FreeBSD from the NT boot loader, but > > you'd better not publish a CD containing both. > > If you've got a license for the NT boot loader to do so, > there's no problem to do that. Well, of course, but the only license that most people get for the NT boot loader is (I suppose) very clear about not licensing you to do that. The GPL is (I know) too unclear. > > (Nobody says there's a > > legal problem with using a GPL'd loader locally, but making it part of > > the core of the distributed OS is too risky.) > > Certainly not. A boot manager is as separates as it can be > from the rest of the system. It's running in real mode. > It does not share or merge _any_ code with the rest of the > system. And it is optional -- you can boot FreeBSD without > it. The GPL doesn't care whether something runs in real mode. So we needn't, either. Your argument about sharing and merging obviously fails for a GPL'd library and a closed-source program (or vice versa) and from the point of view of copyright law and the GPL, the rules don't change for an open-source kernel and boot loader. (Just like they don't change when the GPL allows you to distribute a GPL library with both open- and closed-source programs which don't use the library.) > Think about gcc in our base system. Or GNU-awk, GNU-tar, > cvs, groff, gzip, send-pr, and many others. Just as an > example, take awk (which is GPL, not even LGPL). It is > linked against our (non-GPL) libc. Sure, you can install > a different (slightly incompatible) version of awk from > the ports collection, such as bawk, but the question is > if we are even allowed to link gnu-awk with our libc. Well, the penultimate paragraph of GPL section 3 is widely thought to have an excape clause for that, but it seems clear to me that it only escapes the narrow requirement about supplying source code. You've gotten to a difficult question. Clearly, these programs are less risky because they are more likely to be considered "independent and separate" than a boot loader. But that's not enough for me. I wish that answer is that those programs (in distributions, at least) are statically or dynamically linked against GNU libraries. But I suspect that we're just getting by on the good graces of those program's owners to not consider dynamic linking as infecting, as some copyleftists do, or to not try enforcing it upon us (yet). IIRC, some of the programs owned by the FSF are less risky because of statements by a FSF director which allow our use, but don't quote me on that. I consider any GPL program which links to non-GPL libraries to be too risky to distribute with the OS, unless the owners are on the record as extending the terms of their licenses to explicitly permit it. If you can get the permission of GRUB's owners, the risk would be more acceptable. It would still make us vulnerable to having to make changes after a project license change (eg, GPL-3?), but that's probably OK. > > > I'd be much more concerned about other GPL'ed parts of the > > > base system. [quote added back] > > Why is that not "mere aggregation", and allowed by the GPL? > > No, that's exactly the reason why the LPGL exists. I was thinking they were pure GPL and didn't think they were linking to non-GPL libraries. I now see why that might not be mere aggregation, but I do not see why you would be "much more concerned", nor why you brought up the LGPL. (The LGPL doesn't work with LGPL'd programs linking to non-GPL'd libraries, AFAIK.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 6 18:36:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB53537B401 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 18:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2233743E77 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 18:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 64459534E; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 03:36:41 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 07 Oct 2002 03:36:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > Though the B.S.D. long contained (some) "free" Berkely code, I don't > think it's fair to try to get people to consider the B.S.D. as having > initially been free, even if it was licensed to some schools for no cost. BSD was always free. It started out as a distribution of free software (not a complete OS) which IIRC included a Pascal compiler, vi and curses, all written at UCB and 100% free. It didn't become an OS until a few years later. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 6 22:48: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B256337B401 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 184C743E7B for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:48:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20021007054805.WDSS6431.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@localhost.localdomain>; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 05:48:05 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g975onoS066795; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:50:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g975ohMU066792; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:50:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article References: From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 06 Oct 2002 22:50:43 -0700 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 34 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > > Though the B.S.D. long contained (some) "free" Berkely code, I don't > > think it's fair to try to get people to consider the B.S.D. as having > > initially been free, even if it was licensed to some schools for no cost. > > BSD was always free. It started out as a distribution of free > software (not a complete OS) which IIRC included a Pascal compiler, vi > and curses, all written at UCB and 100% free. It didn't become an OS > until a few years later. Quotes snipped out of context a couple of weeks later can be embarassing. I'm suprised that I said "initially" instead of "always", as I distinctly remember acknowledging the possibility that B.S.D. was, for a short time, not a complete OS (eg, just patches, etc.) and asking if anyone knew. Anyway, "a few years" is consistent with this item from http://comp-hist.sourceforge.net/comp-hist-0.9.2.html#1bsd 1BSD Type : OS Date : 1978 Mar 9 Reference : Quarter Century of UNIX by Peter Salus, pg 142 Code taken from : Unix Time-Sharing System,\n 6th Edition since http://www.bell-labs.com/history/unix/sharing.html says Dennis Ritchie was at Berkely 1976-7. It also quotes him as saying (time period not mentioned, but easily guessed): "The contractors got the UNIX licenses from Bell Labs, but they got the BSD software from Berkeley." Sounds like B.S.D. was always free, except after about Mar'78. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 6 22:52:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A2237B401 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586BB43E3B for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:52:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05066; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 23:52:24 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook is dangerous and makes your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021006235106.038621e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 23:52:10 -0600 To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen), Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:50 PM 10/6/2002, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >Sounds like B.S.D. was always free, except after about Mar'78. BSD *was* always free. However, for awhile it was a free set of enhancements to an expensive product. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 7 5:28: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FDE537B401; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 05:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yahoo.com (ool-4354abcb.dyn.optonline.net [67.84.171.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1DDC743EA3; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 05:28:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark3212asd22@yahoo.com) Reply-To: "Mark Lawson" Message-ID: <025c21c88e4b$3832a6a2$5dc66ad6@gsrkrw> From: "Mark Lawson" To: users@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Discount Cigarettes Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 04:04:54 +0800 MiME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C5_54B56D7D.A6561E60" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_54B56D7D.A6561E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Q2lnYXJldHRlcyBmcm9tICQxOS45OSBwZXIgY2FydG9uISENCg0KaHR0cDov L3d3dy5saWZlbGluZWRlYWxzLmNvbS9jaWdzL2luZGV4LnBocD8xNjINCjY3 ODJ1WEVGNC0yNzhmRllMNTE5MExQSnY0LTYyOUR4eGgxNDQ5bWwzNw== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 7 5:50:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D7FE37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 05:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host-123.syseng.cableinet.net (host-123.syseng.cableinet.net [194.117.135.123]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B60C243E42 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 05:50:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bnazir@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net) Received: by host-123.syseng.cableinet.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9C6F028E; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:50:25 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:50:25 +0100 From: Burhan Nazir To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: which - SECURITY BREACH? Message-ID: <20021007125025.GG7713@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Approved: dell User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, It seems that by sending the "which" command to majordomo, it can return a list of email addresses subscribed to all lists matching any domain name that you specify. This has huge spamming implications For example by doing: which freebsd.org to majordomo@freebsd.org, will return a list of ALL subscribers with domain freebsd.org. Is this a security flaw with majordomo? By disabling the "which" customers loose the ability to query which lists they are subscribe to. This seems weird? -Burhan -- FreeBSD 4.6.2-RELEASE * http://www.freebsd.org 1:35PM up 45 days, 23:12, 11 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 7 11:40:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4678037B401 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carver.gumbysoft.com (carver.gumbysoft.com [66.220.23.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED2FF43E8A for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:40:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@gumbysoft.com) Received: by carver.gumbysoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 49EF172FD1; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carver.gumbysoft.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48BAE72FCC; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:34:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Burhan Nazir Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: which - SECURITY BREACH? In-Reply-To: <20021007125025.GG7713@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> Message-ID: <20021007113336.W89092-100000@carver.gumbysoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Burhan Nazir wrote: > It seems that by > sending the "which" command to majordomo, it can return a list of email > addresses subscribed to all lists matching any domain name that you specify. The FreeBSD.ORG majordomo doesn't have this "feature." Now, YOUR majordomo installations, thats a different problem. :-) I do recall that they added config options to control the use of 'which' and so forth... -- Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@gumbysoft.com | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 7 12:27:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6FE37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 12:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA0343E9C for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 12:27:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 594FD3F4B; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:27:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Doug White Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 15:25:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: which - SECURITY BREACH? Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <3DA1A786.31846.15E3CC1A@localhost> References: <20021007125025.GG7713@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> In-reply-to: <20021007113336.W89092-100000@carver.gumbysoft.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 7 Oct 2002 at 11:34, Doug White wrote: > On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Burhan Nazir wrote: > > > It seems that by > > sending the "which" command to majordomo, it can return a list of > > email addresses subscribed to all lists matching any domain name > > that you specify. > > The FreeBSD.ORG majordomo doesn't have this "feature." Now, YOUR > majordomo installations, thats a different problem. :-) I do recall > that they added config options to control the use of 'which' and so > forth... Doug, yes, it does have that feature. I tried it. It works. I have a list of everyone subscribed from FreeBSD.org. You're welcome to view it if you wish, or try yourself. -- Dan Langille I'm looking for a computer job: http://www.freebsddiary.org/dan_langille.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 7 13:23:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1C9337B401 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out016.verizon.net (out016pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.92]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E3943E6A for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:23:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lsp3@gte.net) Received: from Pentium166 ([4.60.3.28]) by out016.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.09 201-253-122-126-109-20020611) with SMTP id <20021007202329.VNKR9318.out016.verizon.net@Pentium166>; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:23:29 -0500 Message-ID: <006b01c26e3f$0541f980$0201a8c0@Pentium166> From: "Leland" To: "Dan Langille" , "Doug White" Cc: References: <20021007125025.GG7713@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> <3DA1A786.31846.15E3CC1A@localhost> Subject: Re: which - SECURITY BREACH? Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:20:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Doug, yes, it does have that feature. I tried it. It works. I have > a list of everyone subscribed from FreeBSD.org. You're welcome to > view it if you wish, or try yourself. Is this going to get turned off? Leland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 7 13:24:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FA0737B401 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A19A43E4A for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:24:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7EF3F4E; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:24:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: "Leland" Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 16:23:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: which - SECURITY BREACH? Cc: Message-ID: <3DA1B4E5.25852.16180784@localhost> In-reply-to: <006b01c26e3f$0541f980$0201a8c0@Pentium166> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 7 Oct 2002 at 13:20, Leland wrote: > > Doug, yes, it does have that feature. I tried it. It works. I have > > a list of everyone subscribed from FreeBSD.org. You're welcome to > > view it if you wish, or try yourself. > > Is this going to get turned off? -- Dan Langille I'm looking for a computer job: http://www.freebsddiary.org/dan_langille.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 7 13:29: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30F6037B401 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F5E43E42 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:29:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B413F4F; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:29:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: "Leland" Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 16:27:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: which - SECURITY BREACH? Cc: Message-ID: <3DA1B5ED.26596.161C0B66@localhost> In-reply-to: <006b01c26e3f$0541f980$0201a8c0@Pentium166> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 7 Oct 2002 at 13:20, Leland wrote: > > Doug, yes, it does have that feature. I tried it. It works. I have > > a list of everyone subscribed from FreeBSD.org. You're welcome to > > view it if you wish, or try yourself. > > Is this going to get turned off? My apologies for the empty message. postmaster has been notified. I'm sure we'll find out soon. -- Dan Langille I'm looking for a computer job: http://www.freebsddiary.org/dan_langille.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 7 13:51: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4131F37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839F543E86 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:51:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13692; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:50:41 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook is dangerous and makes your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021007144630.02982e80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 14:49:58 -0600 To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article Cc: chat@freeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021006235106.038621e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20021006235106.038621e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:07 PM 10/7/2002, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >Brett Glass writes: > >> At 11:50 PM 10/6/2002, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >> >> >Sounds like B.S.D. was always free, except after about Mar'78. >> >> BSD *was* always free. However, for awhile it was a free set >> of enhancements to an expensive product. > >And therefor, for the remaining "while" (all but some part of >1976-Mar'78, it seems), it was NOT. So why do you insist on saying >that it was ALWAYS free? It sounds preposterous. > >It seems like you are saying that a (Berkely) software distribution, >which contained both Berkeley free-licensed software and AT&T fee- >licensed software, was nonetheless "free" software. That's nonsense. The Berkeley portion was free. Methinks that, perhaps, you're asserting "guilt by assocation." ;-) (That's all I have to say right now; need to go change a thermostat so that the tenants in the building my wife and I are fixing up do not freeze. I've quoted the rest of your message below at your request.) --Brett >Do you mean to imply that B.S.D. ALWAYS contained nothing but Berkeley >(or other) free-licensed software, like patches and replacement >programs? Was Peter Salus (or his quoter) wrong to say that "1BSD" >contained AT&T code in Mar'78? > >You say yourself, that "The BSD code, which was [...] very much >intertwined with AT&T's code". > >Even if the actual B.S.D. (ie, the tape contents) WAS pure Berkeley >free-licensed patches, etc., wasn't it (and isn't it) Unix-industry- >standard jargon to refer to "BSD" (not "the BSDs") as an *OS* which >contained both free- and fee-licensed software? I'm sure that companies >who paid a few hundred $ for the BSD tapes and a few (?) thousand for >the AT&T license didn't think of BSD as free software. Nor people who >read other histories. > >Please, I support your efforts in most of these licensing issues and I >want to believe what you say about BSD history, but unfortunately, it >seems to differ from everything else I've read, and so I'd like to see >you provide something like support for your history. More details about >what was in those distributions, if nothing else. NO fee-licensed code? > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 8 13:24:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9287337B401 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7BF343E3B for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:24:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc03.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20021008202444.TPCB22381.sccrmhc03.attbi.com@localhost.localdomain>; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 20:24:44 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g98KRIoS095718; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:27:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g98KRCpi095715; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:27:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Brett Glass Cc: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen), chat@freeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021006235106.038621e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20021006235106.038621e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20021007144630.02982e80@localhost> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 08 Oct 2002 13:27:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021007144630.02982e80@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > The Berkeley portion was free. Methinks that, perhaps, you're > asserting "guilt by assocation." ;-) Yes I am, following the lead of copyright law and common English. If only part of something is free, then that something is non-free. You (and DES) said "BSD was always free" which is very different than "the Berkeley portion of BSD was always free". Such over-reaching should be left to the GNU promoters. I suspect that there were many portions of BSD for which one couldn't possibly separate into Berkeley and AT&T portions, so that there were portions which the two simply had joint ownership of. Such portions were licensed by AT&T and Berkeley under different licenses, and some licensees had to pay license fees to use it, making BSD non-free for most of it's existence and by no means "always free". I see no need to spin the fact, sordid as it might seem to gnus. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 8 15:31:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0109537B401; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotmail.com (adsl-63-199-31-184.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.199.31.184]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 46D3043E3B; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:31:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Billkejs12@hotmail.com) Reply-To: "Bill Keagen" Message-ID: <033e83c70e6e$4873a5c4$8be75ea3@fnqlbw> From: "Bill Keagen" To: users@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Cheap Cigarettes Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 19:12:16 +0300 MiME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B4_57E20E8B.D2508B46" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_57E20E8B.D2508B46 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Q2lnYXJldHRlcyBmcm9tICQxOS45OSBwZXIgY2FydG9uISENCg0KaHR0cDov L3d3dy5saWZlbGluZWRlYWxzLmNvbS9jaWdzL2luZGV4LnBocD8xNjINCjQw NDZSYVBiNS04NDVOTVZ1MjQ2MUpLbEo0LTIwbDI3 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 8 15:35:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13EA837B401 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C073E43E6E for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:35:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g98MZoR39294; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:35:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:35:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Brett Glass , Subject: Re: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021008145226.K30424-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 8 Oct 2002, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Yes I am, following the lead of copyright law and common English. If > only part of something is free, then that something is non-free. You > (and DES) said "BSD was always free" which is very different than "the > Berkeley portion of BSD was always free". BSD was always free. the AT&T code for UNIX was not. remember, BSD started as a set of extentions and improvements to AT&Ts UNIX, and it eventually evolved in to it's own OS. when AT&T realised it could make cash off of UNIX, it changed the licensing terms, and sued the University of California for distributing UNIX. > I suspect that there were many portions of BSD for which one couldn't > possibly separate into Berkeley and AT&T portions, so that there were > portions which the two simply had joint ownership of. Such portions > were licensed by AT&T and Berkeley under different licenses, and some > licensees had to pay license fees to use it, making BSD non-free for > most of it's existence and by no means "always free". yes, kind of. yes, there were portions of AT&T code, once those were purged, the BSD code no longer fell under the AT&T license, and could be distributed freely again. in the meanwhile, the plucky Linux kernel jumped out of the woodwork. > I see no need to spin the fact, sordid as it might seem to gnus. what spin? the facts are just that AT&T gave away UNIX, people took the code, made extentions to it, gave those away as BSD, then AT&T stopped giving away UNIX, but BSD was still being given away. seems simple enough. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 8 16:46:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF7E37B401 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 16:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B957643E42 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 16:46:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0137.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.137] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17z43E-0004Qr-00; Tue, 08 Oct 2002 16:46:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3DA36DF9.CD52524F@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 16:44:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article References: <20021008145226.K30424-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > BSD was always free. the AT&T code for UNIX was not. UNIX was free, too. The consent decree from the Greene decision on the AT&T antitrust case forbit AT&T from making money from selling software. This was the original "Western Electric" license that UCB got the UNIX sources under. This is the same license that permitted the University of Queensland commented source code book to be distributed. > remember, BSD started as a set of extentions and improvements to AT&Ts > UNIX, and it eventually evolved in to it's own OS. when AT&T realised it > could make cash off of UNIX, it changed the licensing terms, and sued the > University of California for distributing UNIX. When AT&T was broken up, the 1956 consent decree was no longer in force, and it was permitted to start charging for software. This did not change the licensing under which the software was obtained by UCB. For a long time, UCB did not "upgrade" its source license, because of the additional restrictions the new license tried to place on the code. They were happy with the old license. The lawsuit came from BSDI using the phone number "1-800-ITS-UNIX", infringing the UNIX trademark. They ceased use of the trademark, as ordered, but, like dragons, once awoken, lawyers seldom go back to sleep easily. BSDI then "hid behind" UCB, claiming that if their code infringed, then all they were doing was contributory infringement. At which point AT&T (USL) sued UCB as well, since you have to defend trademarks zealously, and you have to try really hard to jam the cat back into the bag, if a trade secret is disclosed. Technically, UCB was sued because of BSDI. > > I suspect that there were many portions of BSD for which one couldn't > > possibly separate into Berkeley and AT&T portions, so that there were > > portions which the two simply had joint ownership of. Such portions > > were licensed by AT&T and Berkeley under different licenses, and some > > licensees had to pay license fees to use it, making BSD non-free for > > most of it's existence and by no means "always free". > > yes, kind of. yes, there were portions of AT&T code, once those were > purged, the BSD code no longer fell under the AT&T license, and could be > distributed freely again. in the meanwhile, the plucky Linux kernel jumped > out of the woodwork. Nice rewrite on history, there... 8-). > > I see no need to spin the fact, sordid as it might seem to gnus. > > what spin? the facts are just that AT&T gave away UNIX, people took the > code, made extentions to it, gave those away as BSD, then AT&T stopped > giving away UNIX, but BSD was still being given away. > > seems simple enough. It's never that simple. I suggest you interview Mike DeFazio, if he will consent to be interviewed in the subject. He was the USL person who later became the Novell VP of Novell USG (UNIX Systems Group). I and a lot of people spent many hours in his office, convincing him to drop the lawsuit, and, particularly, to give the same terms to 386BSD, FreeBSD, and NetBSD that they gave to BSDI (continue shipping until next version was available or 6 months), rather than the "Cease and Desist" order all the principal's received (ask Jordan; he might still have his letter somewhere he could scan it and post it). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 8 17:47:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEACE37B401 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 17:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C5943E4A for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 17:47:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g990lSv40045; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 17:47:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 17:47:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Brett Glass , Subject: Re: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article In-Reply-To: <3DA36DF9.CD52524F@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20021008174334.H30424-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Nice rewrite on history, there... 8-). thanks, i try my best. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 8 18:33:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2B5A37B404 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 18:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FEC543E4A for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 18:33:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D7E0881457; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:03:29 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:03:29 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Real UNIX history (was: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article) Message-ID: <20021009013329.GB1415@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20021008145226.K30424-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <3DA36DF9.CD52524F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DA36DF9.CD52524F@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 8 October 2002 at 16:44:57 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > "f.johan.beisser" wrote: >> BSD was always free. the AT&T code for UNIX was not. > > UNIX was free, too. The consent decree from the Greene decision > on the AT&T antitrust case forbit AT&T from making money from > selling software. That didn't make it free. > This was the original "Western Electric" license that UCB got the > UNIX sources under. This is the same license that permitted the > University of Queensland commented source code book to be > distributed. UQ? That was UNSW. http://burks.brighton.ac.uk/burks/foldoc/15/67.htm. You'll note that John got hell for it, though UNIX was still not available commercially. >> yes, there were portions of AT&T code, once those were purged, the >> BSD code no longer fell under the AT&T license, and could be >> distributed freely again. in the meanwhile, the plucky Linux kernel >> jumped out of the woodwork. > > Nice rewrite on history, there... 8-). I think you do better. What part of the statement above do you disagree with? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 8 21:29:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9070437B401; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A5843E65; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:29:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0355.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.100] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17z8TO-0001So-00; Tue, 08 Oct 2002 21:29:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3DA3B05D.6DCAD9E8@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 21:28:13 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Real UNIX history (was: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article) References: <20021008145226.K30424-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <3DA36DF9.CD52524F@mindspring.com> <20021009013329.GB1415@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 8 October 2002 at 16:44:57 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > >> BSD was always free. the AT&T code for UNIX was not. > > > > UNIX was free, too. The consent decree from the Greene decision > > on the AT&T antitrust case forbit AT&T from making money from > > selling software. > > That didn't make it free. No, you;re right. It was the "them not charging for it" that made it free. 8-). > > This was the original "Western Electric" license that UCB got the > > UNIX sources under. This is the same license that permitted the > > University of Queensland commented source code book to be > > distributed. > > UQ? That was UNSW. > http://burks.brighton.ac.uk/burks/foldoc/15/67.htm. You'll note that > John got hell for it, though UNIX was still not available > commercially. I always get the two confused; sorry. John got hell for it because they wanted to post-facto enforce rights that they didn't reserve at the time that they made the distribution to John, UCB, etc., because they were legally prohibited from claiming those rights, under the consent decreee, because of AT&T's previous violations of the Sherman anti-trust acts. Part of the Bell breakup was intentional on the part of AT&T to get out from under these judgements. You'll notice that the phone company has reassembled itself, very much like the Terminator II reassembled itself from its pieces. SBC owns the majority of the local telephone network, due to mergers between the RBOC's (Regional Bell Operating Companies/"Baby Bells"). AT&T is back to offering intrastate long distance, as well, something which it had been prohibited from doing, when the name was divested into a long distance carrier. The really amusing part is that a number of these mergers have been paid for using the balance on long term debt instruments that were created as part of the divestiture. > >> yes, there were portions of AT&T code, once those were purged, the > >> BSD code no longer fell under the AT&T license, and could be > >> distributed freely again. in the meanwhile, the plucky Linux kernel > >> jumped out of the woodwork. > > > > Nice rewrite on history, there... 8-). > > I think you do better. What part of the statement above do you > disagree with? That the AT&T license meant anything to UCB, which, at the time, did not have an AT&T license; the UCB code was derived from code under the Western Electric license. UCB settled, even when MIT had publically stated a willingness to back the UCB position with their patent portfolio (try to do any work in CS without infringing an MIT patent), and Dennis Ritchie offered (again publically) to testify that there were no USL trade secrets embodied in the UCB code. Strip the VAX code, and the only issue was whether or not the code was disclosing a trade secret. Trade secret law is very clear that one can only recover damages from a discloser who is a member of a select group, and is also contractually bound to non-disclosure. There were no non-disclosure terms in the original Western Electric license (this is a matter of public record). Collection of the damages is an acknowledgement of disclosure, and once disclosed, a trade secret is no longer a trade secret, and therefore republication of the information is not illegal. In fact, Digital Equipment Corporation never took the Net/2 source code down from the gatekeeper.dec.com archive, on the basis of this legal principle, even though they were served with papers: disclosure meant no trade secrets existed. The whole case was, in fact, about supressing a bootable UCB derived code base which did not pay unit royalties to USL, for fear that it would take market share away from the USL UNIX. It is no mistake that the files "identified as containing USL intellectual property" in the USL/UCB settlement were six files that removed major components from 5 major subsystems, on the theory that a bootable BSD would take significantly longer to be recreated than it was -- if it was ever recreated. Linux was left alone because it was (1) international, and therefore difficult to enforce against, and (2) not perceived as a credible threat to the commercial UNIX market. Luckily they very much underestimated the ability of the community to replace the code in the files they targetted as part of the settlement. Personally, given the MIT backing, and the backing from the engieers at USL and Bell Labs of the time, I've never understood why UCB "bent over" for USL, unless they were getting something out of it; of course, the terms of the settlement are undisclosed. Perhaps we can petition for them under the FOIA, given that UCB is a federally funded institution... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 8 22:28:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEF0A37B401; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760D943E42; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:28:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g995SMk41380; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:28:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:28:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Brett Glass , Subject: Re: Real UNIX history (was: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article) In-Reply-To: <3DA3B05D.6DCAD9E8@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20021008222353.N30424-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org i think i'll stick with http://caustic.org/~jan/history.html while it may not be accurate, it does sum up my opinion of UNIX/BSD fairly well. thanks for the correction, and the rather informative debate. it's been educational, -- jan -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 9 9:28: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C996037B401; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 09:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECC1043E6A; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 09:27:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g99GRvp17234; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:27:57 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:27:57 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Real UNIX history (was: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD hist Message-ID: <20021009122757.F16730@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3DA3B05D.6DCAD9E8@mindspring.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > UNIX was free, too. The consent decree from the Greene decision > > > on the AT&T antitrust case forbit AT&T from making money from > > > selling software. > > > > That didn't make it free. > > No, you;re right. It was the "them not charging for it" that made > it free. 8-). Remind me again -- why was there a flap, across all three BSDs, about Darren Reed's "no modification" licensing of IP Filter around a year ago? He never tried to charge for it, did he? What was that fuss about? - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 9 10:33:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD8937B401 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0981D43E42 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:33:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11770; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:33:17 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook is dangerous and makes your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021009113214.02807a50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 11:33:11 -0600 To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article Cc: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021007144630.02982e80@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20021006235106.038621e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20021006235106.038621e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20021007144630.02982e80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:27 PM 10/8/2002, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >Yes I am, following the lead of copyright law and common English. If >only part of something is free, then that something is non-free. BSD was always distinct and separate. You didn't HAVE to use it; it was just a good idea. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 9 10:47:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6DE37B401 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9DE43E4A for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:47:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20021009174727.DJQF29655.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@localhost.localdomain>; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:47:27 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g99HnuoS011742; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g99Hno65011737; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:49:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article References: <20021008145226.K30424-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <3DA36DF9.CD52524F@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 09 Oct 2002 10:49:50 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3DA36DF9.CD52524F@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > UNIX was free, too. The consent decree from the Greene decision > on the AT&T antitrust case forbit AT&T from making money from > selling software. Now THAT's something I can believe (if I accept "free" as meaning only no-cost licensing, which I'm happy to do). Except I think you got a detail wrong. Either (or both) the 1956 concent decree or an agreement with FCC in 1979-80 forbade BellLabs/WE from selling stuff outside AT&T. The Greene decision got them off that hook, as you later indicated. > For a long time, UCB did not "upgrade" its source license, because > of the additional restrictions the new license tried to place on > the code. They were happy with the old license. Any guess when they DID upgrade their license and the gist of the new terms? Please confirm (to make this perfectly clear) what you seem to be implying, that both schools and companies (and not just DoD contractors) used, without paying any licensing fees, the then-current versions of the "BSD OS" the entire time they were available (1978-now?). So when Dennis Ritchie said "The contractors got the UNIX licenses from Bell Labs, but they got the BSD software from Berkeley.", he was referring to a no-cost license. And when history writers refer to "buying BSD", they're referring only to the cost of tapes, etc. One exception might have been AT&T itself, which (as I understand things) might have paid very high prices for the products of WE & Bell Labs, as allowed by the 1956 decree, to fund those companies. But it's OK to consider them one big company in this discussion. A nice, short history of AT&T, WE, and Bell Labs is at http://www.bell-labs.com/history/lucent.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 9 11:15:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32AA37B401; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.comcast.net (smtp.comcast.net [24.153.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1500A43E42; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:15:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomifeh@earthlink.net) Received: from earthlink.net (bgp586692bgs.jdover01.nj.comcast.net [68.39.202.147]) by mtaout01.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.4 (built Aug 5 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H3Q0032V822MX@mtaout01.icomcast.net>; Wed, 09 Oct 2002 14:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 14:15:38 -0400 From: Larry Sica Subject: Re: Real UNIX history (was: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD hist In-reply-to: <20021009122757.F16730@papagena.rockefeller.edu> To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.org Message-id: <1CFEAE72-DBB3-11D6-92E0-000393A335A2@earthlink.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 12:27 PM, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: >>>> UNIX was free, too. The consent decree from the Greene decision >>>> on the AT&T antitrust case forbit AT&T from making money from >>>> selling software. >>> >>> That didn't make it free. >> >> No, you;re right. It was the "them not charging for it" that made >> it free. 8-). > > Remind me again -- why was there a flap, across all three BSDs, about > Darren Reed's "no modification" licensing of IP Filter around a year > ago? He never tried to charge for it, did he? What was that fuss > about? > Reed clarified his license in regards to the no modification clause. He did not change a thing. Now this conflicts with the OpenBSD philosophy and created a possible conflict with all the *BSD's really. Net and Free came to an agreement with him on it. I do not know the exact particulars (I prefer ipfw so I am not as up to date with ipf). Well part of the flap was a pissing contest between theo and reed that basically got out of hand. Each party was partially right and partially wrong imho. Theo had every right to pull it from openbsd, Reed had every right to license his software how he wanted. Some urls http://false.net/ipfilter/2001_06/0078.html http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/news/story/0,2000025345,20231471,00.htm HTH --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 9 12:32:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06BF337B401; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B393943E6E; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:32:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0579.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.200.69] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17zMZG-0001PX-00; Wed, 09 Oct 2002 12:32:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3DA48404.3E886F85@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 12:31:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Real UNIX history (was: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD hist References: <20021009122757.F16730@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > UNIX was free, too. The consent decree from the Greene decision > > > > on the AT&T antitrust case forbit AT&T from making money from > > > > selling software. > > > > > > That didn't make it free. > > > > No, you;re right. It was the "them not charging for it" that made > > it free. 8-). > > Remind me again -- why was there a flap, across all three BSDs, about > Darren Reed's "no modification" licensing of IP Filter around a year > ago? He never tried to charge for it, did he? What was that fuss > about? I don't understand the relevence of the question. The answer is that intent is part of any contract, and Darren changed the generally understood interpretation of intent for the license he was using, such that local patches were not allowed (effectively rendering it an "Artistic License" equivalent). This was a problem because the ipfilter code was in a security critical area, where an OS which incorporated it would need to" be able to provide timely and accurate fixes to problems. Most OS's had a different idea of "timely" than Darren did. So it became a security issue. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 9 12:50:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86EFE37B401; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outmail-3.st1.spray.net (outmail-3.st1.spray.net [212.78.202.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD41A43E42; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:49:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from puledi1976@lycos.co.uk) Received: from lycos.co.uk (newwww-37.st1.spray.net [212.78.202.47]) by outmail-3.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with SMTP id C7351A06C; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 21:49:57 +0200 (DST) From: puledi mpezi To: puledi1976@lycos.co.uk Message-ID: <1034192996016884@lycos.co.uk> X-Mailer: Caramail - www.caramail.com X-Originating-IP: [216.139.169.27] Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: contact me!! Date: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_NextPart_Caramail_0168841034192996_ID" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --=_NextPart_Caramail_0168841034192996_ID Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MR. PULEDI MPEZI. PACIFIC BANK OF SOUTH AFRICA, 9TH FLOOR, HEERENGRACHT TOWER, STANDARD BANK CENTER, CAPE TOWN, SOUTH AFRICA. I am Mr. Puledi Mpezi, Provincial Director Pacific Bank of South Africa, Johannesburg Branch. I have urgent and very confidential business proposition for you. On June 6, 1998, an American Oil consultant/contractor with the South Africa Mining Corporation, Mr. Charles Andason made a numbered time (Fixed) Deposit for twelve calendar months, valued at US$25,000,000.00 (Twenty- five Million Dollars) in my branch. Upon maturity, I sent a routine notification to his forwarding address but got no reply. After a month, we sent a reminder and finally we discovered from his contract employers, the South Africa Mining Corporation that Mr. Charles Andason died from an automobile accident. On further investigation, I found out that he died without making a WILL, and all attempts to trace his next of kin was fruitless. I therefore made further investigation and discovered that Mr. Charles Andason did not declare any kin or relations in all his official documents, including his Bank Deposit paperwork in my Bank. This sum of US$25,000,000.00 is still sitting in my Bank and the interest is being rolled over with the principal sum at the end of each year. No one will ever come forward to claim it. According to South Africa Law, at the expiration of 5 (five) years, the money will revert to the ownership of the South Africa Government if nobody applies to claim the fund. Consequently, my proposal is that I will like you to stand in as the next of kin to Mr. Charles Andason so that the fruits of this old man's labor will not get into the hands of some corrupt government officials. This is simple, I will like you to provide immediately your full names and address so that the Attorney will prepare the necessary documents and affidavits which will put you in place as the next of kin. We shall employ the service of two Attorneys for drafting and notarization of the WILL and to obtain the necessary documents and letter of probate/administration in your favor for the transfer. A bank account in any part of the world which you will provide will then facilitate the transfer of this money to you as the beneficiary/next of kin. The money will be paid into your account for us to share in the ratio of 60% for me and 40% for you. There is no risk at all as all the paperwork for this transaction will be done by the Attorney and my position as the Branch Manager guarantees the successful execution of this transaction. If you are interested, please reply immediately via the private email address below.. Upon your response, I shall then provide you with more details and relevant documents that will help you understand the transaction. Please observe utmost confidentiality, and rest assured that this transaction would be most profitable for both of us because I shall require your assistance to invest my share in your country. Sincerely Puledi Mpezi ______________________________________________________ Check out all the latest outrageous email attachments on the Outrageous Email Chart! - http://viral.lycos.co.uk --=_NextPart_Caramail_0168841034192996_ID-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 9 13:16: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C81E837B401 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A96243E42 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:16:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0579.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.200.69] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17zNFK-0007Uc-00; Wed, 09 Oct 2002 13:15:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3DA48E32.2F841084@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 13:14:42 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article References: <20021008145226.K30424-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <3DA36DF9.CD52524F@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > For a long time, UCB did not "upgrade" its source license, because > > of the additional restrictions the new license tried to place on > > the code. They were happy with the old license. > > Any guess when they DID upgrade their license and the gist of the new > terms? They refused to disclose the information. There is also some question about the derivation of works. Clearly, a new license only supercesess an old one, if those are terms of the new license (e.g. I can have a copy of Windows 3.1, licensed in perpetuity, and I won't lose access to it after a year when I buy a PC with Windows XP on it ...yet, anyway). > Please confirm (to make this perfectly clear) what you seem to be > implying, that both schools and companies (and not just DoD contractors) > used, without paying any licensing fees, the then-current versions of > the "BSD OS" the entire time they were available (1978-now?). There was a tape copying fee. They also (later) instituted a AT&T UNIX source license requirement, when the VAX/VM code went in. But yes, both the University of Utah and Weber State University had such a license. For the Net/2 distribution, which was the second distribution of a VM BSD, with the derivative work portions excoriated, almost every network device vendor on the planet, including Standford University, Sun (SUN := Stanford Univerity Network computer), and CISCO, etc., used the code without paying any licensing fees. It was, in fact, this lack of having paid fees that permitted the withdrawl of the UCSD P-code system from distribution, for all licensees except Apple, who paid a fee to ensure the license was in perpetuity, and used the P-code system in their "QuickDraw" implementation in the original Macintosh. Similarly, UCB attempted to withdrawl the Net/1 and Net/2 code, which they felt they had a right to do, under the same legal theory. Not everyone complied, and the withdrawl was not legally enforced (it was a "de juris" threat, a use of a legal club, and generally uneforcible). > So when Dennis Ritchie said "The contractors got the UNIX licenses from > Bell Labs, but they got the BSD software from Berkeley.", he was > referring to a no-cost license. And when history writers refer to > "buying BSD", they're referring only to the cost of tapes, etc. Yes. > One exception might have been AT&T itself, which (as I understand > things) might have paid very high prices for the products of WE & > Bell Labs, as allowed by the 1956 decree, to fund those companies. Perhaps. But they were not permitted to recover such costs externally, so the accounting tricks only mattered to their bottom line tax bill. > But it's OK to consider them one big company in this discussion. > > A nice, short history of AT&T, WE, and Bell Labs is at > http://www.bell-labs.com/history/lucent.html Yes; there used to be some interesting papers on alice, as well; I'm not sure what happened to them, once Dennis was moved around. I'm pretty sure the current "alice" is not the same as the old "alice.research.att.com". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 9 13:22:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E95EF37B401 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www6.web2010.com (www6.web2010.com [216.157.5.254]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4437743E3B for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:22:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marty@face2interface.com) Received: from marty.face2interface.com (marty.ulster.net [216.238.72.249]) by www6.web2010.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA26156 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:21:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20021009161953.01f5c020@mail.face2interface.com> X-Sender: face@mail.face2interface.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 16:21:43 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Marty Landman Subject: Re: contact me!! In-Reply-To: <1034192996016884@lycos.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:51 PM 10/9/02 -0400, you wrote: >I am Mr. Puledi Mpezi, Provincial Director Pacific Bank of South Africa, >Johannesburg Branch. I have urgent and very confidential business >proposition for you. Hey is there anyway we can get this Mpezi guy in touch with that time traveller dude? Maybe they could help each other out somehow (and leave the rest of us alone). Just my two cents, Marty -- SIMPL WebSite Creation: http://face2interface.com/Home/Demo.shtml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 9 14:13:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F3237B401; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C91C43E75; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:13:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g99LDpb18013; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:13:51 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:13:51 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Real UNIX history (was: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD hist Message-ID: <20021009171351.A17992@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3DA48404.3E886F85@mindspring.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > No, you;re right. It was the "them not charging for it" that made > > > it free. 8-). > > > > Remind me again -- why was there a flap, across all three BSDs, about > > Darren Reed's "no modification" licensing of IP Filter around a year > > ago? He never tried to charge for it, did he? What was that fuss > > about? > > I don't understand the relevence of the question. The relevance is to the meaning of the word "free". In the context of the BSDs, I always understood it meant "freely redistributable" including the possibility of modifications/bugfixes. AT&T's code was not. I can't think of any counter-examples in the FreeBSD base system. There are several in the ports, many of which are not shipped on the CDROM for that reason. > This was a problem because the ipfilter code was in a security > critical area, where an OS which incorporated it would need to" > be able to provide timely and accurate fixes to problems. It would have been a problem even for a non-security-critical component. It is even a problem if bugfixes are allowed but the code has other, eg patent-related constraints, see for example Theo de Raadt's posting on the OpenSSL/Sun issue: http://www.bsdforums.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3291 The OpenBSD people have a rather lengthy document on their copyright policy: http://www.openbsd.org/policy.html Perhaps FreeBSD's policy is different, but I always understood not. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 9 15:27:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C0D37B401 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D534A43E6E for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20021009222454.DYRQ28530.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@localhost.localdomain>; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:24:54 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g99MRMoS015180; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:27:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g99MRGiT015177; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:27:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article References: <20021008145226.K30424-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <3DA36DF9.CD52524F@mindspring.com> <3DA48E32.2F841084@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 09 Oct 2002 15:27:16 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3DA48E32.2F841084@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 45 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > They refused to disclose the information. There is also some > question about the derivation of works. There's "some question" about a lot of things, in my mind, but you've convinced me to accept (in context) the rough claim and concept that "BSD was always free" in the sense of "licensed for no cost to anyone for the purposes of local use without publishing copies or derivatives". I still wonder if it's true for the whole of every BSD version, but maybe that's negligible; I'll certainly neglect it until I get interested enough to do much more research. And I'll probably continue to protest the claim if it's given without a halfway decent explanation that's reasonably accurate and non-misleading. > For the Net/2 distribution, which was the second distribution of > a VM BSD, with the derivative work portions excoriated, almost Thanks for learn'n me a new use for the word "excoriate". ("To tear or wear off the skin of; abrade; chafe.) > Similarly, UCB attempted to withdrawl the Net/1 and Net/2 code, > which they felt they had a right to do, under the same legal > theory. Not everyone complied, and the withdrawl was not legally > enforced (it was a "de juris" threat, a use of a legal club, and > generally uneforcible). I think we've mentioned before that the licensor can only (?) withdraw his license after restoring the licensee (finacially?) to his status when the license was first granted. This probably means that the licensor could withdraw the license to publish derivatives, without any need to compensate most licensees. It's seems like a risk that liberally-licensed software projects should (and could) remove. > Perhaps. But they were not permitted to recover such costs > externally, so the accounting tricks only mattered to their > bottom line tax bill. But that doesn't matter for the issue of whether the code (BSD) was fee-licensed by an owner (eg, Bell Labs) to some company (eg, AT&T), making it non-free, very (and too) strictly speaking. A nit-pick. Thanks for the information; it was very helpful to the discussion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 9 15:41:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7542337B401; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E92A43E6A; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:41:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0210.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.210] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17zPVt-0001l8-00; Wed, 09 Oct 2002 15:41:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3DA4B03D.5DA6A396@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 15:39:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Real UNIX history (was: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD hist References: <20021009171351.A17992@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Remind me again -- why was there a flap, across all three BSDs, about > > > Darren Reed's "no modification" licensing of IP Filter around a year > > > ago? He never tried to charge for it, did he? What was that fuss > > > about? > > > > I don't understand the relevence of the question. > > The relevance is to the meaning of the word "free". In the context of > the BSDs, I always understood it meant "freely redistributable" > including the possibility of modifications/bugfixes. AT&T's code was > not. Yes, it was. This seems to be the root of the misunderstanding. The orignial Western Electric license did not have a covenant requiring non-disclosure. The source code was, in fact, disclosed publically, both by UNSW (the Lyon's book) and by UCB. > > This was a problem because the ipfilter code was in a security > > critical area, where an OS which incorporated it would need to" > > be able to provide timely and accurate fixes to problems. > > It would have been a problem even for a non-security-critical > component. It is even a problem if bugfixes are allowed but the code > has other, eg patent-related constraints, see for example Theo de > Raadt's posting on the OpenSSL/Sun issue: > http://www.bsdforums.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3291 That's Theo's problem; what you are talking about, at that point, is editorial control. There's lots of code that meets that limit. The main problem most people had with it is that imposition of the editorial control meant additional latency and disagreement as to what constitutes a security fix. DJB has a long and glorious history of defining away things in qmail and djbdns that most people would consider to be "bugs", and want patches incorporated to "fix". > The OpenBSD people have a rather lengthy document on their copyright > policy: > http://www.openbsd.org/policy.html > > Perhaps FreeBSD's policy is different, but I always understood not. Luckily, this is FreeBSD-chat, not OpenBSD-chat. 8-). If you are looking to me to defend Theo's imposition of policy decisions, you are looking in the wrong place, and on the wrong list. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 10 0: 8:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B8BB37B401 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web14007.mail.yahoo.com (web14007.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.123]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E7A6243E8A for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:08:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from apog@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20021010070835.68460.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.39.131.40] by web14007.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:08:35 PDT Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:08:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Alexander Pohoyda Subject: Looking for a roommate for BSDCon Europe 2002 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi guys, I'm looking for a roommate to share the double room appt. at Mercure Hotel Amsterdam aan de Amstel. I will stay at least 3 nights. Please drop me a line as soon as possible, so that I can fill in the accommodation form. -- Alexander Pohoyda __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 10 7:26: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C3237B401 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 07:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBBD543E6E for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 07:26:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g9AEQ2s19373 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:26:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g9AEQ2p21817 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:26:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g9AEPwx21810 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:25:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3DA58DDA.10508@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:25:30 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: serial sniffer? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone have a good tool or way of gathering the stuff coming in on a serial port? I'd like to suck in some data from a device that dumps the info through a serial port (there's a windows program to receive it, but what good does THAT do me?) and try to parse the ascii data from it. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Skydiving - safer than the stock market. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 10 8: 6:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D8DE37B401 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carl.svc.tds.net (carl.svc.tds.net [204.246.1.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94CA243E9C for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:06:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kenwills@tds.net) Received: from zap.zaptillion.net ([66.168.17.30]) by carl.svc.tds.net with ESMTP id <20021010150732.KEO3710.carl@zap.zaptillion.net>; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:07:32 -0500 Received: by zap.zaptillion.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 7E4F5226992; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:07:30 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:07:30 -0500 From: Ken Wills To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: serial sniffer? Message-ID: <20021010150730.GA39755@zaptillion.net> References: <3DA58DDA.10508@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DA58DDA.10508@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org +++ Eric Anderson [10/10/02 09:25 -0500]: > Anyone have a good tool or way of gathering the stuff coming in on a > serial port? I'd like to suck in some data from a device that dumps the > info through a serial port (there's a windows program to receive it, but > what good does THAT do me?) and try to parse the ascii data from it. /usr/ports/comms/snooper You connect you device to one port, your windows box to the other and run this in between. Ken To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 10 8:19:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6079B37B401 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4EF43E9E for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:19:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g9AFIxs20728; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:18:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g9AFIxx26106; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:18:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g9AFItx26091; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:18:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3DA59A44.1050301@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:18:28 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ken Wills Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: serial sniffer? References: <3DA58DDA.10508@centtech.com> <20021010150730.GA39755@zaptillion.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wow! That's a cool tool. Man, do I love those ports. Thanks for the pointer. Eric Ken Wills wrote: > +++ Eric Anderson [10/10/02 09:25 -0500]: > >>Anyone have a good tool or way of gathering the stuff coming in on a >>serial port? I'd like to suck in some data from a device that dumps the >>info through a serial port (there's a windows program to receive it, but >>what good does THAT do me?) and try to parse the ascii data from it. > > > /usr/ports/comms/snooper > > You connect you device to one port, your windows box to the other and run > this in between. > > Ken -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Skydiving - safer than the stock market. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 10 8:28:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8EB37B401 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B7543EAC for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:28:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26240; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:28:24 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook is dangerous and makes your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021010092453.02934160@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:28:19 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3DA48E32.2F841084@mindspring.com> References: <20021008145226.K30424-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <3DA36DF9.CD52524F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:14 PM 10/9/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >It was, in fact, this lack of having paid fees that permitted the >withdrawl of the UCSD P-code system from distribution, for all >licensees except Apple, who paid a fee to ensure the license was >in perpetuity, and used the P-code system in their "QuickDraw" >implementation in the original Macintosh. It was used in some code for the Lisa, but not in QuickDraw for the Mac. (If it had, QuickDraw would have been "SlowDraw.") Silicon Valley Systems created a native code compiler for the Mac that accepted the same flavor of Pascal, and this is what was used for Mac development. >> One exception might have been AT&T itself, which (as I understand >> things) might have paid very high prices for the products of WE & >> Bell Labs, as allowed by the 1956 decree, to fund those companies. > >Perhaps. But they were not permitted to recover such costs >externally, so the accounting tricks only mattered to their >bottom line tax bill. It mattered more than that. Remember, they were subject to "rate of return" regulation. If they could beef up the "funny money" expenses they booked, they could charge customers more real dollars. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 6:31:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A3337B404; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 06:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CB8E43E9E; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 06:31:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g9BDVss20417; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:31:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g9BDVrg02225; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:31:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g9BDVox02218; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:31:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3DA6D2AA.4090803@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:31:22 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-questions Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: ucom + usb + palm = insanity Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD 4.7-RELEASE is nice.. I'm so close, yet so far. Has anyone messed with the ucom stuff yet? Does anyone know the correct way to use it? I thought I'd just slap some stuff in my kernel: device uplcom device uvscom device uvisor device ucom0 at ugen? port ? build it, install it, and I'd be happy. No luck. Here's what I get when I hit the sync button: Oct 11 08:29:13 electron /kernel: ucom0: Palm, Inc. Palm Handheld, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 2 Oct 11 08:29:13 electron /kernel: ucom0: Palm, Inc. Palm Handheld, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 2 Oct 11 08:29:13 electron /kernel: ucom0: init failed, STALLED Oct 11 08:29:13 electron /kernel: device_probe_and_attach: ucom0 attach returned 6 Oct 11 08:29:13 electron /kernel: ugen0: Palm, Inc. Palm Handheld, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 2 I couldn't find any docs on it, so once I get this figured out, you can imagine what I'll be writing up. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Skydiving - safer than the stock market. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 6:38: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DFF837B401; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 06:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lerlaptop.lerctr.org (lerlaptop.lerctr.org [207.158.72.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB31943E75; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 06:38:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ler@lerctr.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lerlaptop.lerctr.org (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g9BDbuZO001010; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:37:57 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ler@lerctr.org) Subject: Re: ucom + usb + palm = insanity From: Larry Rosenman To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-questions , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3DA6D2AA.4090803@centtech.com> References: <3DA6D2AA.4090803@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 Date: 11 Oct 2002 08:37:56 -0500 Message-Id: <1034343477.373.20.camel@lerlaptop.lerctr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2002-10-11 at 08:31, Eric Anderson wrote: > FreeBSD 4.7-RELEASE is nice.. I'm so close, yet so far. > > Has anyone messed with the ucom stuff yet? Does anyone know the correct > way to use it? I thought I'd just slap some stuff in my kernel: > > device uplcom > device uvscom > device uvisor > device ucom0 at ugen? port ? remove the at ugen? port ? and then add the Palm to usbd.conf. We still have issues with pilot-link, but David Desrossier(sp?) is working on them. David has a USB motherboard/Processor I supplied to work on these issues. I'm assuming here you have a M5xx Palm. LER > > build it, install it, and I'd be happy. > > No luck. > > Here's what I get when I hit the sync button: > Oct 11 08:29:13 electron /kernel: ucom0: Palm, Inc. Palm Handheld, rev > 1.00/1.00, addr 2 > Oct 11 08:29:13 electron /kernel: ucom0: Palm, Inc. Palm Handheld, rev > 1.00/1.00, addr 2 > Oct 11 08:29:13 electron /kernel: ucom0: init failed, STALLED > Oct 11 08:29:13 electron /kernel: device_probe_and_attach: ucom0 attach > returned 6 > Oct 11 08:29:13 electron /kernel: ugen0: Palm, Inc. Palm Handheld, rev > 1.00/1.00, addr 2 > > I couldn't find any docs on it, so once I get this figured out, you can > imagine what I'll be writing up. > > Eric > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology > Skydiving - safer than the stock market. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > -- Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler Phone: +1 972-414-9812 E-Mail: ler@lerctr.org US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 13: 9:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801F037B401 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scoobysnax.jaded.net (d141-7-230.home.cgocable.net [24.141.7.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBED143E88 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:09:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@scoobysnax.jaded.net) Received: from scoobysnax.jaded.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scoobysnax.jaded.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g9BK9GP1000606 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:09:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dan@scoobysnax.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by scoobysnax.jaded.net (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g9BK9GFl000605 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:09:16 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Dan Moschuk To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: arch "package format flaws?" thread in raw mailbox format? Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:09:16 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200210111609.16353.dan@FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Subject says it all. If anyone has an archive for that huge thread on -a= rch a=20 while back, I would appreciate a copy of it. Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving to the fellow Canucks! :) -Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 13:12:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB3C237B401 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C68743E8A for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:12:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from DaleCoportable [12.145.236.17] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.13) id A04B6169029A; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:10:51 -0500 Message-ID: <00c901c27162$3e61dd90$11ec910c@DaleCoportable> From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: Subject: Tune ferret? or "toon ferret" ... should I google? Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:10:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Majordomo sez, upon (re)joining -chat: FREEBSD-CHAT Non technical items related to the community This list contains the overflow from the other lists about non-technical, social information. It includes discussion about whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not, whether or not to type in capitals, who is drinking too much coffee, where the best beer is brewed, who is brewing beer in their basement, and so on. Occasional announcements of important events (such as upcoming parties, weddings, births, new jobs, etc) can be made to the technical lists, but the follow ups should be directed to this list. Is it a "tune ferret"? Or, a (car)toon ferret? Can this ferret sing or play an instrument? I hear bassoon is popular among FreeBSD Core Members (;-) I'm quite curious...may have to try Google..... Kevin Kinsey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 13:13: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1277537B401; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34E143EA9; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:13:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0005.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.5] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18069b-0002dE-00; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:13:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3DA7307D.C8C85888@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:11:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Moschuk Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: arch "package format flaws?" thread in raw mailbox format? References: <200210111609.16353.dan@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/ -- Terry Dan Moschuk wrote: > > Subject says it all. If anyone has an archive for that huge thread on -arch a > while back, I would appreciate a copy of it. > > Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving to the fellow Canucks! :) > -Dan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 13:16:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A595037B401 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C3743E9C for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:16:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from DaleCoportable [12.145.236.17] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.13) id A164B726022C; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:15:32 -0500 Message-ID: <00d001c27162$e5936110$11ec910c@DaleCoportable> From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: Subject: Fw: Tune ferret? or "toon ferret" ... should I google? Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:15:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Googling shows, fairly plainly, that the original post, I suppose in 1998 was "toon ferret". The Majordomo has a spelling issue, methinks..... KDK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 3:10 PM Subject: Tune ferret? or "toon ferret" ... should I google? > Majordomo sez, upon (re)joining -chat: > > FREEBSD-CHAT > Non technical items related to the community > This list contains the overflow from the other lists about > non-technical, social information. It includes discussion about > whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not, whether or not to > type in capitals, who is drinking too much coffee, where the best > beer is brewed, who is brewing beer in their basement, and so on. > Occasional announcements of important events (such as upcoming > parties, weddings, births, new jobs, etc) can be made to the > technical lists, but the follow ups should be directed to this list. > > Is it a "tune ferret"? Or, a (car)toon ferret? Can this ferret sing > or play an instrument? I hear bassoon is popular among FreeBSD > Core Members (;-) > > I'm quite curious...may have to try Google..... > > Kevin Kinsey > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 15:43:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F000237B401 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scoobysnax.jaded.net (d141-7-230.home.cgocable.net [24.141.7.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E7243E75 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:43:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@scoobysnax.jaded.net) Received: from scoobysnax.jaded.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scoobysnax.jaded.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g9BMhDP1001029; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:43:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dan@scoobysnax.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by scoobysnax.jaded.net (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g9BMhD2B001028; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Dan Moschuk To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: arch "package format flaws?" thread in raw mailbox format? Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:43:13 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 Cc: chat@freebsd.org References: <200210111609.16353.dan@FreeBSD.org> <3DA7307D.C8C85888@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3DA7307D.C8C85888@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200210111843.13406.dan@FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/ | | -- Terry | | > Subject says it all. If anyone has an archive for that huge thread o= n | > -arch a while back, I would appreciate a copy of it. | > | > Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving to the fellow Canucks! :) | > -Dan Thanks, but I was hoping somebody had the discussion already in raw forma= t to=20 save me the trouble of writing a script to parse out the thread from nume= rous=20 html files. -d To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 16:56: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B9437B401; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60B743E97; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:55:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0285.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.30] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1809dF-0002nX-00; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:55:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3DA764BC.6DA11A2C@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:54:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Moschuk Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: arch "package format flaws?" thread in raw mailbox format? References: <200210111609.16353.dan@FreeBSD.org> <3DA7307D.C8C85888@mindspring.com> <200210111843.13406.dan@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Moschuk wrote: > | http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/ > > Thanks, but I was hoping somebody had the discussion already in raw format to > save me the trouble of writing a script to parse out the thread from numerous > html files. Must... click... link... bottom... of... page... to... save... Enterprise! -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 17: 2:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5799837B401; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DED343E88; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:02:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g9C03jth089525; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:03:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (polytarp@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id g9C03jtE089522; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:03:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:03:45 -0400 (EDT) From: pgreen To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dan Moschuk , Subject: Re: arch "package format flaws?" thread in raw mailbox format? In-Reply-To: <3DA764BC.6DA11A2C@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20021011200224.A89464-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terrance, I don't think it was worth it. Do you, Terrance, know just how many resources are used to send these messages, Terrance? Terrance, I was wondering if you could stop sending us those silly jokes, Terrance. On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Dan Moschuk wrote: > > | http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/ > > > > Thanks, but I was hoping somebody had the discussion already in raw format to > > save me the trouble of writing a script to parse out the thread from numerous > > html files. > > Must... click... link... bottom... of... page... to... save... Enterprise! > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 17: 9:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 111AF37B401; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB5543E97; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:09:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0285.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.30] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1809qH-0003Dx-00; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:09:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3DA767E3.49131B54@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:08:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pgreen Cc: Dan Moschuk , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: arch "package format flaws?" thread in raw mailbox format? References: <20021011200224.A89464-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org pgreen wrote: > Terrance, I don't think it was worth it. Do you, Terrance, know just how > many resources are used to send these messages, Terrance? Terrance, I was > wondering if you could stop sending us those silly jokes, Terrance. You're right... what was I think, posting this to the -chat list?!? I should have been a jerk, and pointed out that the link at the bottom of the page got the archive in raw format, just like the text near the link does. Then he could be pissed off at me like you seem to be, only he'd have a valid reason for it... 8^p. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 17:58:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A265337B401; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.comcast.net (smtp.comcast.net [24.153.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A6BB43E97; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:58:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomifeh@earthlink.net) Received: from earthlink.net (bgp586692bgs.jdover01.nj.comcast.net [68.39.202.147]) by mtaout03.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.4 (built Aug 5 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H3U001C3G1UTG@mtaout03.icomcast.net>; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:58:42 -0400 From: Larry Sica Subject: Re: arch "package format flaws?" thread in raw mailbox format? In-reply-to: <3DA764BC.6DA11A2C@mindspring.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dan Moschuk , chat@freebsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, October 11, 2002, at 07:54 PM, Terry Lambert wrote: > Dan Moschuk wrote: >> | http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/ >> >> Thanks, but I was hoping somebody had the discussion already in raw >> format to >> save me the trouble of writing a script to parse out the thread from >> numerous >> html files. > > Must... click... link... bottom... of... page... to... save... > Enterprise! > Which enterprise? Which temporal anomoly in effect? Must..choose...correct..universe... Do we take the nc-1701, nc-1701(A-Z), or the enterpirse pre-starfleet which didn't exist but now it does? --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 18: 0:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8768237B406; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.comcast.net (smtp.comcast.net [24.153.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B00A43E97; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:00:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomifeh@earthlink.net) Received: from earthlink.net (bgp586692bgs.jdover01.nj.comcast.net [68.39.202.147]) by mtaout02.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.4 (built Aug 5 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H3U00BIYG4CLA@mtaout02.icomcast.net>; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:00:11 -0400 From: Larry Sica Subject: Re: arch "package format flaws?" thread in raw mailbox format? In-reply-to: <3DA767E3.49131B54@mindspring.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: pgreen , Dan Moschuk , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, October 11, 2002, at 08:08 PM, Terry Lambert wrote: > pgreen wrote: >> Terrance, I don't think it was worth it. Do you, Terrance, know just >> how >> many resources are used to send these messages, Terrance? Terrance, >> I was >> wondering if you could stop sending us those silly jokes, Terrance. > > You're right... what was I think, posting this to the -chat list?!? > > I should have been a jerk, and pointed out that the link at the > bottom of the page got the archive in raw format, just like the > text near the link does. Then he could be pissed off at me like > you seem to be, only he'd have a valid reason for it... 8^p. > This reminds me a little of Johnny Dangerously...My mother called me that once, only once.... Wasting bandwidth... --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 18: 3:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF84A37B401 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.comcast.net (smtp.comcast.net [24.153.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A17E143E65 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomifeh@earthlink.net) Received: from earthlink.net (bgp586692bgs.jdover01.nj.comcast.net [68.39.202.147]) by mtaout06.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.4 (built Aug 5 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H3U00IULGAINP@mtaout06.icomcast.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:03:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:03:54 -0400 From: Larry Sica Subject: Interesting article To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <7ABC7D1F-DD7E-11D6-A029-000393A335A2@earthlink.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org All, Saw this article in eweek about opensource and security... http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,579097,00.asp Interesting take, and I agree with the point that it isn't closed or open source so much as who is behind said project, some are better than others. Thoughts? --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 18:15:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E144D37B401 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877A743E77 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:15:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0103.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.103] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 180Ash-0006g2-00; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:15:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3DA77773.8D58F494@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:14:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Sica Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting article References: <7ABC7D1F-DD7E-11D6-A029-000393A335A2@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Larry Sica wrote: > Saw this article in eweek about opensource and security... > > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,579097,00.asp > > Interesting take, and I agree with the point that it isn't closed or > open source so much as who is behind said project, some are better than > others. Thoughts? DARPA is funding the TrustedBSD work, so if it's "the people behind it", I know who I vote for... ;^). As far as "having someone who knows what they're doing writing code" goes... Microsoft hires just as many clueless newbies as Linux "hires". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 18:28:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C04FD37B401; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3860443E91; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:28:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g9C1U8th093380; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:30:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (polytarp@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id g9C1U8mB093377; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:30:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:30:08 -0400 (EDT) From: pgreen To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dan Moschuk , Subject: Re: arch "package format flaws?" thread in raw mailbox format? In-Reply-To: <3DA767E3.49131B54@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20021011212910.X93294-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > pgreen wrote: > > Terrance, I don't think it was worth it. Do you, Terrance, know just how > > many resources are used to send these messages, Terrance? Terrance, I was > > wondering if you could stop sending us those silly jokes, Terrance. > > You're right... what was I think, posting this to the -chat list?!? > > I should have been a jerk, and pointed out that the link at the > bottom of the page got the archive in raw format, just like the > text near the link does. Then he could be pissed off at me like > you seem to be, only he'd have a valid reason for it... 8^p. > > -- Terry > Hahaha. That was funny. It's just because it's humourous. 7P):::4D. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 20:39:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F2937B401 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A981143E3B for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:39:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 180D7c-000AIN-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 04:39:24 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g9C3dNnc094328 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 04:39:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g9C3dNsd094327 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 04:39:23 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 04:39:23 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: 'Coolest' development tool of the day?? Message-ID: <20021012033923.GA91466@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you had to choose, what development tool (for any language, but runnable under BSD/Unix) do you think is the most innovative, useful, clever, or forward-thinking, as of right now? This includes whole IDE's and platforms as well as smaller tools that work within the context of a broader platform or group of tools. Linux-runnable ports are OK. :-) NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 11 22:12:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E3237B404 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server2.wojo.com (server2.wojo.com [198.77.29.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BC6B43E65 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robertw@wojo.com) Received: by server2.wojo.com (Postfix, from userid 502) id 81D298E; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 01:10:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from moe.wojo.net (ip44.dialup.iflint.net [198.173.220.44]) by server2.wojo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6DE28D for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 01:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: 'Coolest' development tool of the day?? Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 01:10:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Thread-Topic: 'Coolest' development tool of the day?? Thread-Index: AcJxoV2nvA8VsffaS1aX5L2/tSrPNgACwagQ From: "Robert S. Wojciechowski Jr." To: content-class: urn:content-classes:message Cc: "Jonathon McKitrick" X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-106.0 required=6.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST,USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO version=2.50-cvs X-Spam-Level: X-Sanitizer: Anomy Sanitizer Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I recently started using scons, a very nice Python based replacement for Make. It's based off of ScCons, but is actively developed. The strongest feature for me is the automatic dependency handling, I just love it! The documentation sometimes lacks a bit and it's still in alpha release but I won't go back to Make. Give it a spin: http://www.scons.org/ -- Robert -----Original Message----- From: Jonathon McKitrick [mailto:jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org]=20 Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 11:39 PM To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: 'Coolest' development tool of the day?? If you had to choose, what development tool (for any language, but runnable under BSD/Unix) do you think is the most innovative, useful, clever, or forward-thinking, as of right now? This includes whole IDE's and platforms as well as smaller tools that work within the context of a broader platform or group of tools. Linux-runnable ports are OK. :-) NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. Jm --=20 My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 12 2:53:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C095237B401 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 02:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5520D43EAA for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 02:53:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from probe-1034411718-1034416437-freebsd-chat=freebsd.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com) X-eGroups-Return: probe-1034411718-1034416437-freebsd-chat=freebsd.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.176] by n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Oct 2002 09:53:57 -0000 Message-ID: Date: 12 Oct 2002 09:53:57 -0000 From: Yahoo!Groups Reply-To: confirm-unbounce-1034411718-77923465-33250@yahoogroups.co.uk To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Please reactivate your Yahoo! Groups account MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, You belong to one or more email groups provided by Yahoo! Groups (uk.groups.yahoo.com). Email from these groups can be recognized by looking for a group name in the message Subject line, like [pet-owners] or [music-fans]. Recently, messages sent to you from Yahoo! Groups have been returned to us as undeliverable. To prevent any problems with your email service, we have temporarily turned your Yahoo! Groups account OFF. If you are reading this message now, the delivery problem appears to be fixed. However, we won't know that the problem is fixed until you tell us. To turn your Yahoo! Groups account ON: - Please REPLY to this message. Send that reply back to us without changing anything. OR - While connected to the Internet, click on the following Web link (or copy and paste it into your Web browser and hit the RETURN key): http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/unbounce?adj=77923465,33250&p=1034411718 Once we get a response from you, we will turn your Yahoo! Groups account back ON, and you will begin to receive messages from your groups again. After you respond, you can read any messages you might have missed while your account was off by visiting: http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Thank you for using Yahoo! Groups! Yahoo! Groups Customer Care Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 12 8:29:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 059CF37B401 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 08:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.comcast.net (smtp.comcast.net [24.153.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C36443E6E for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 08:29:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomifeh@earthlink.net) Received: from earthlink.net (bgp586692bgs.jdover01.nj.comcast.net [68.39.202.147]) by mtaout04.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.4 (built Aug 5 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H3V00BZZKDDLA@mtaout04.icomcast.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:29:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:29:37 -0400 From: Larry Sica Subject: Re: 'Coolest' development tool of the day?? In-reply-to: <20021012033923.GA91466@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <6B128304-DDF7-11D6-AF4A-000393A335A2@earthlink.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, October 11, 2002, at 11:39 PM, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > If you had to choose, what development tool (for any language, but > runnable > under BSD/Unix) do you think is the most innovative, useful, clever, or > forward-thinking, as of right now? > > This includes whole IDE's and platforms as well as smaller tools that > work > within the context of a broader platform or group of tools. > Linux-runnable > ports are OK. :-) > Does OSX count ;). I've been looking at Project Builder under OS X and I like it. Too bad there is no FreeBSD port. That said, on FreeBSD I use a combination of nedit, make, gtkdiff and tkcvs. I haven't. I tried Kdevelop and it is not bad either imho. --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 12 9:36:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BACC737B411 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 09:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.69.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08F7C43EB7 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 09:36:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g9CGZYKg036636; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:35:34 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from matthew@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: (from matthew@localhost) by happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id g9CGZTZF036635; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:35:29 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:35:29 +0100 From: Matthew Seaman To: Larry Sica Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 'Coolest' development tool of the day?? Message-ID: <20021012163529.GA36537@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> Mail-Followup-To: Larry Sica , Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20021012033923.GA91466@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <6B128304-DDF7-11D6-AF4A-000393A335A2@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6B128304-DDF7-11D6-AF4A-000393A335A2@earthlink.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Oct 12, 2002 at 11:29:37AM -0400, Larry Sica wrote: > Does OSX count ;). I've been looking at Project Builder under OS X and > I like it. Too bad there is no FreeBSD port. That said, on FreeBSD I > use a combination of nedit, make, gtkdiff and tkcvs. I haven't. I > tried Kdevelop and it is not bad either imho. http://www.gnustep.org/, particularly http://www.gnustep.org/experience/ProjectCenter.html Ports: devel/gnustep Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks Savill Way Marlow Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 12 11:58: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D6437B401 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.comcast.net (smtp.comcast.net [24.153.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC0743EB1 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:57:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomifeh@earthlink.net) Received: from earthlink.net (bgp586692bgs.jdover01.nj.comcast.net [68.39.202.147]) by mtaout04.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.4 (built Aug 5 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H3V00D3PU0M2B@mtaout04.icomcast.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 14:57:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 14:57:58 -0400 From: Larry Sica Subject: Re: 'Coolest' development tool of the day?? In-reply-to: <20021012163529.GA36537@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> To: Matthew Seaman Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <85E93020-DE14-11D6-B74E-000393A335A2@earthlink.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, October 12, 2002, at 12:35 PM, Matthew Seaman wrote: > On Sat, Oct 12, 2002 at 11:29:37AM -0400, Larry Sica wrote: > >> Does OSX count ;). I've been looking at Project Builder under OS X >> and >> I like it. Too bad there is no FreeBSD port. That said, on FreeBSD I >> use a combination of nedit, make, gtkdiff and tkcvs. I haven't. I >> tried Kdevelop and it is not bad either imho. > > http://www.gnustep.org/, particularly > http://www.gnustep.org/experience/ProjectCenter.html > Ah so someone is porting project builder or something like it..cool --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 12 17:57:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08EE437B401; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9AC43E97; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:57:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from DaleCoportable [12.145.226.112] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.13) id A4B6F17500D4; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:56:22 -0500 Message-ID: <015a01c27253$23e57ed0$fa00a8c0@DaleCoportable> From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Jonathan Chen" Cc: , References: <20021012223843.2E2F743EA3@mx1.FreeBSD.org> <3DA8A9F5.4050609@potentialtech.com> <20021012235015.GA59654@grimoire.chen.org.nz> Subject: Re: Strictly Private. Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:54:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yikes, and I thought my in-laws went crackers when they downloaded KLEZ.H from Yahoo! KDK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Chen" To: "Bill Moran" Cc: Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 6:50 PM Subject: Re: Strictly Private. > On Sat, Oct 12, 2002 at 07:02:13PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > > I have two questions: > > > > 1. If someone is stupid enough to fall for this, how can the criminal > > presenting the scam actually get away with it? > > 2. Who is stupid enough to fall for this scam? > > Check out details on how the criminal can get way with, and someone > who actually fell for it: > > http://www.freep.com/news/locoak/checks21_20020921.htm > > Cheers. > -- > Jonathan Chen > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > "Opportunity does not knock, > it presents itself when you beat down the door" - W.E. Channing > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message