From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 29 1:13:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED87F37B401 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 01:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 802A543EC2 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 01:13:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0164.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.164] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SZVA-000272-00; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 01:12:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3E0EBC49.86AD7E28@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 01:11:37 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Patrick Cable II Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Backup Solutions References: <3E0DC536.8010001@slaudiovis.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4c8de3c957fe6183dffbedd2471f2b5e4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Patrick Cable II wrote: > What do you use for a backup solution for your freebsd server? Depends on what problems you want to solve. There are at least 4 major ones: 1) Recovery following single point of failure 2) Recovery following fire 3) Recovery following accidental deletion 4) Recovery following malicious corruption (e.g. virus/worm/etc.) 5) Permissable recoverability latency A replicated server saves you from #1. It can also save you from #2, if you don't locate the replica at the same site. It does nothing for #3 or #4, since the deletion and/or damage is copied to your replica. It addresses #5 only if your software cooperates, a lot (e.g. you can lose a day of data, if the replication can't happen against open files, i.e. MSDE, MS Access, etc.). A tape backup or DVD-RAM addresses #1, #3, and #4. It probably fails to address #5, completely. It may or may not address #2, depending on how you set up your policies and procedures, and whether or not you follow them religiously (e.g. offsite storage). DVD-RAM has the same problems as a replica. DVD-ROM adds support for #3 and #4, at least for as long as your discard period lasts. DVD-RAM can do this, too, but you have to treat it as DVD-ROM, to the extent of having to take the media physically to another machine to erase it: if you don't, then anything that can happen to a disk can happen to it. A USB hard drive is basically just a disk. Same effects as a second server, except you can (maybe) address #2, by taking it off site and/or locking it in a fire safe. You could also add: 6) Permissable recovery latency This is different from #5: #5 deals with how much change you are willing to lose (e.g. with an accounting system, are you willing to have to repeat the days payment postings), and #6 is all about how long it takes to get back up, following a catastrophe. Consider also: if it's OK to have to repost payments (as an example), what are you going to do about the fact that the documents from which the postings are being made burnt in the same fire that ate your server? You can't post checks that you can't deposit/haven't deposited, and which are now ashes. I expect that the correct thing to do is to have a replica and a non-volatile backup mechanism, in combination. I also suggest that you avoid the "active file can't be backed up" problem, by choosing the correct software (and no, "snapshots" are not good enough, because they don't trap the right state for the implied metadata, among other deficiencies). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 29 23:10:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F6D537B401 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E248643ED4 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:10:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0067.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.67] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Su4M-00057c-00; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:10:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3E0FF119.7792A270@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:09:13 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Patrick Cable II , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Backup Solutions References: <3E0DC536.8010001@slaudiovis.org> <3E0EBC49.86AD7E28@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a48db572cca1247b4707e62663da234bc6a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:11 AM -0800 2002/12/29, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I expect that the correct thing to do is to have a replica and > > a non-volatile backup mechanism, in combination. > > Sounds good. But what are good tools to achieve these goals? > > Myself, I would be interested in extending this question to also > cover PC/Windows & Macintosh (MacOS X) clients, in addition to the > FreeBSD server. So, in addition to backing up the server itself, you > also need software to back the clients up to the server, which can > then be rolled into the server "data" to be backed up. The problem with Windows and Macintosh is the software doesn't provide transaction triggers. Most places where you would want to do this sort of thing are for replica servers for databases for small businesses; large ones already have Veritas with snapshots or Oracle or Sybase or some other "real" database. For Windows and Macintosh, you are most likely to be using some Microsoft based solution, like Access, or Access with a Microsoft SQL back end. Most often, this is MSDE, which is a cut-down SQL server that comes free with the developer's software, and has a distribution license, which saves you from the license fees and the per-user license requirements of MS SQL Server. In the common case, a well-written application will close the database between transactions, so that implied atomicity guarantees happen. But most of these applications are written by non-CS people who are writing code to get something working, and never think about the consequences of big customers, etc.. As an example, one of my dad's businesses has a number of various purpose-built applications that have grown up in order to implement his business rules and internal practices. One of them is a client/server application that uses MS SQL server, another is mostly Access based (but thinking of moving the data store over to MS SQL), and another is the MSDE "free" SQL server (it's a document imaging system). None of them can really work properly for a backup that doesn't go out of its way to deal with open files, so there is a one day latency in data recovery, except for tiny windows that would make the database(s) unavailable for however long the backup or replica creation took. The MS SQL one could be handled, though... it's possible to make a replicating proxy. But then corrupt data would still be replicated all over, as would improper deletions, since there is not a deleted record marker and a pending index, to delay actual deletion until a purge operation takes place. Access can be backed by MS SQL, and you can replace MSDE with MS SQL, meaning you can proxy all of them, but then you are paying on the order of $10,000, which is a little steep for a 25 person office. In etiher case, the offline backup is still needed for the reasons stated previously. That business uses tape to do a rotating offsite backup, with an incremental and full archival dump schedule. These require that people exit the applications, so it can be some work walking around the office after hours, for the person doing it, if anyone has left their machine on and accessing a record in any of them. > Is there an Amanda PC/Windows client? Or an Amanda MacOS X > client? There is one in beta right now. IT's available from: http://sourceforge.net/projects/amanda-win32/ It doesn't seem to have been updated since last June. 8-(. You probably are not going to find it useful, due to the "open file backup" problem. The normal way to handle "open file backup" on windows is to install an IFSMgr hook to hook calls into the IFS manager. You can then use the existing open instance for the file in question in order to back it up. This is usually not very satisfying for database files, since the transactional representation of atomicity and/or idempotence to the application are done at the database application level, and can't be guaranteed at the IFSMgr level (there is no nesting information pushed by the application to the IFSMgr, so you can wait for a 1->0 nesting level for transactions in progress to complete, before doing your backup). The result is "corrupted" database files (they aren't really corrupt, they're more like there was a crash in the middle of however many updates were in progress at the time). Most database software will not do a check on the data for you automatically, and you may not be able to trigger crash-recovery behaviour following a restore, without special knowledge. The most common method is to export the FS as a share, and then use Amanda with SAMBA (client) in order to back up the data; this has the same problems. See the online book at: http://www.backupcentral.com/amanda.html specifically: http://www.backupcentral.com/amanda-13.html > What about the handling of tape swapping, archiving, and > other things normally done with stackers and libraries? You use stackers and libraries. 8-). > > I also suggest that you avoid the "active file can't be backed up" > > problem, by choosing the correct software (and no, "snapshots" are > > not good enough, because they don't trap the right state for the > > implied metadata, among other deficiencies). > > Good point. What are good tools to avoid this problem, at least > with regards to FreeBSD? There aren't any, per se. You have to have people write the code the right way, instead. For Access, the most common method of making code "backup safe" is to close it between operations, to mark the ends of transactions. The database software has the same problem opening the file as you would, if the database software has the file open (barring the IFSMgr shim approach). Even so, this only works to protect the integrity of data or of metadata, but not of implied metadata. For example, if you have a seperate index and record file, and there is no guarantee on the order of operation on th two of them, even if the application were to sync the data out to guarantee idempostence against reuse of the data by the application, that doesn't make the backup operation into an atomic snapshot. Even if the backup software opened the next file before closing the last, you can't guarantee that the snapshot that you will get is accurate. Most professional database software comes with software that does its accesses the same as the database software, and sometimes even does its dumps by connecting to the database, locking records, and dumping them out (MySQL does it that way, but a record that contains a non-indexed field which is an index for another database, can still have inconsistant state: that's an implied metadata relationship). If you have professional database software, then you will back up the database contents with the vendor supplied software, and not treat the database files as if they were files. In most cases, you are talking about spending money for commercial software, since the professional database backup software is often a seperate product add-on. That's the case for all MS products using FreeBSD systems as a file server to store database files on remotely accessed volumes. If you're talking about FreeBSD databases on FreeBSD, then most of them have ways to dump the database contents atomically, for backup purposes. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 2: 2:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7DF37B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 02:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DC043EA9 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 02:02:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (shub@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gBU6GUf01081; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 01:16:30 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E0EBC49.86AD7E28@mindspring.com> References: <3E0DC536.8010001@slaudiovis.org> <3E0EBC49.86AD7E28@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 21:55:09 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Backup Solutions Cc: Patrick Cable II , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:11 AM -0800 2002/12/29, Terry Lambert wrote: > I expect that the correct thing to do is to have a replica and > a non-volatile backup mechanism, in combination. Sounds good. But what are good tools to achieve these goals? Myself, I would be interested in extending this question to also cover PC/Windows & Macintosh (MacOS X) clients, in addition to the FreeBSD server. So, in addition to backing up the server itself, you also need software to back the clients up to the server, which can then be rolled into the server "data" to be backed up. Is there an Amanda PC/Windows client? Or an Amanda MacOS X client? What about the handling of tape swapping, archiving, and other things normally done with stackers and libraries? > I also suggest that you avoid the "active file can't be backed up" > problem, by choosing the correct software (and no, "snapshots" are > not good enough, because they don't trap the right state for the > implied metadata, among other deficiencies). Good point. What are good tools to avoid this problem, at least with regards to FreeBSD? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 2: 2:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98DA437B405 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 02:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C181843EA9 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 02:02:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (shub@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gBU6GPf01068; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 01:16:27 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E0E5A93.4060108@quadtelecom.com> References: <3E0DAAF3.7090103@quadtelecom.com> <20021228130209.A79151@getaclue.net> <3E0E5A93.4060108@quadtelecom.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 21:48:17 -0600 To: Harry Tabak From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Cc: dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:14 PM -0500 2002/12/28, Harry Tabak wrote: >> Any server admin who chooses to use some sort of blocking list >> understands the risks involved - that clean mail may get rejected >> with the dirty. If someone chooses to run a blocking list, they >> should be aware of the consequences of each list. That said, once >> they decide to do so, they do not have to accept your mail - it is >> their server, after all. > > Not necessarily. The implication in the literature is that the > false-positive rate is low. The false-positive rate is relatively low for most black lists, but low != none. It is not possible to have a black list with a zero false-positive rate, because anything you could possibly select on could theoretically be used by an innocent person. The trick with a black list is to set the system up so that it has a "low enough" false-positive rate, and a "high enough" false negative rate. However, what is "low enough" or "high enough" for you may be totally inappropriate for me. All server admins should fully understand these issues when they subscribe to a given black list. Any that do not will run the risk of having criminal negligence charges filed against them. Indeed, many that do fully understand these issues will run the risk of having criminal negligence charges being filed against them. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 2:17: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7959D37B49F for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 02:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A7843ED8 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 02:17:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBUAFI171021; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 02:15:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200212301015.gBUAFI171021@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 02:15:13 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > All server admins should fully understand these issues when they > subscribe to a given black list. Any that do not will run the risk > of having criminal negligence charges filed against them. Indeed, > many that do fully understand these issues will run the risk of > having criminal negligence charges being filed against them. Hear hear. Would it be possible to file a class action civil suit against blacklist organizations on a similar basis? ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< One day, a Fool was in the village mill, filling his bag with a little bit of every other person's wheat. "Why are you doing that?" someone asked. "Because I am a Fool" came the reply. "Well," the someone asked "Why don't you then fill other people's bags with your own wheat?" "Then," came the answer, "I would be more of a fool." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 3:28:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 013EB37B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 03:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-21.mail.nl.demon.net (post-21.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E7343EC2 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 03:28:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-21.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18Sy5z-000Cqd-00 for FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:28:35 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 5828C1663 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:28:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 3EF16F04 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:28:24 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id 8B29E225D9; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:28:24 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:28:24 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Eat Pizza and lose weight Message-ID: <20021230112824.GH4085@raggedclown.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I forgot about that one. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 8:58:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B7E237B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 08:58:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail019.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail019.syd.optusnet.com.au [210.49.20.160]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19DA743EA9 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 08:58:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ianjp@hypermax.net.au) Received: from hypermax.net.au (golax4-011.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.147.11]) by mail019.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gBUGvps25157; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:57:52 +1100 Message-ID: <3E107B16.78D02E29@hypermax.net.au> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 02:57:58 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: diskless workstation - minimum requirements? References: <20021228135828.A26212-100000@m20.unixathome.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > > As part of an upcoming Open Source Weekend (http://www.osw.ca/) I'm > putting together a small demonstration network > (http://www.langille.org/osw-demo.php). It was suggested that a diskless > workstation would be a nice addition to the suite. > > How practical is this from both a FreeBSD-demo perspective and from a open > source perspective? What does it demonstrate? ow useful is it given that > we are catering in large to the business community? It would be good if you could do it with one of those tiny mini-itx machines. A tiny computer always has some wow factor. What does it demonstrate to a business community audience? Nothing much unless you can mock up some kiosk type POS thing on it perhaps, or at least have a web-browser running on it. Some people will love the quietness of it (and lack of heat generation). A lot of people will not give a hoot if it's a full blown PC or a terminal in front of them. Cost is probably the best sales point. Ian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 9:20:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F51237B401; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 09:20:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1B443EE5; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 09:20:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fumerola@bootbox.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8715C1C3EAB; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 09:20:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 00F3811E61; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 09:20:46 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 09:20:46 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Fumerola To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: End of year report Reply-To: fumerola@bootbox.net X-Originating-Ip: [66.83.10.226] Message-Id: <20021230172046.00F3811E61@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's time for the 'End of year report', and to discuss what progresses have been made in the FreeBSD camp: GEOM (by Poul-Henning Kamp) GEOM has still a very long way to go, it's currently almost usable, save for some quite annoying bugs. devfs devfs is almost there, even if Bruce Evans keeps trying to sabotage it. RAIDFrame RAIDFrame hasn't made any significant progress in the last 3 months. Scottl, move your ass!!! ---- While I was having a couple of s=ECxpacks^Wbeers with my friend Alfred the other day, he told me: "Bufu, I feel so bad about=20 how I talked to Trish, makes me wanna shoot smack again". What can I say? Alfred, the drunkard, feeling bad about Trish. I hope we get rid of that Dillon moron very soon, he rejected my patches once more! Sincerely, Bill _____________________________________________________________ BootBox.Net - Your Home on the Internet http://www.bootbox.net Get an @bootbox.net webmail account - http://webmail.bootbox.net Get Dialup Internet Access for only $8.95/mo http://isp.bootbox.net Host Your Website For Free- http://webhosting.bootbox.net Put Your E-Commerce Business Online Virtually Free - http://bcommerce.bootb= ox.net _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No = Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=3Dtag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 12:27: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554D037B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:27:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from dynamic.galis.org (ool-4350143e.dyn.optonline.net [67.80.20.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 92CE543EB2 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:26:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from returns@galis.org) Received: (qmail 1914 invoked by uid 1010); 30 Dec 2002 20:32:11 -0000 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:32:11 -0500 From: George Georgalis To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: diskless workstation - minimum requirements? Message-ID: <20021230203211.GA1743@trot.local> References: <20021228135828.A26212-100000@m20.unixathome.org> <3E107B16.78D02E29@hypermax.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E107B16.78D02E29@hypermax.net.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 31, 2002 at 02:57:58AM +1000, Ian Pulsford wrote: > > >Dan Langille wrote: >> >> As part of an upcoming Open Source Weekend (http://www.osw.ca/) I'm >> putting together a small demonstration network >> (http://www.langille.org/osw-demo.php). It was suggested that a diskless >> workstation would be a nice addition to the suite. >> >> How practical is this from both a FreeBSD-demo perspective and from a open >> source perspective? What does it demonstrate? ow useful is it given that >> we are catering in large to the business community? > >It would be good if you could do it with one of those tiny mini-itx >machines. A tiny computer always has some wow factor. > >What does it demonstrate to a business community audience? Nothing much >unless you can mock up some kiosk type POS thing on it perhaps, or at >least have a web-browser running on it. > >Some people will love the quietness of it (and lack of heat >generation). A lot of people will not give a hoot if it's a full blown >PC or a terminal in front of them. Cost is probably the best sales >point. There is more to cost than hardware too... http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/12/04/2346215.shtml?tid=19 - By Robin 'Roblimo' Miller - We're back in Largo, Florida, checking on advances in the Linux-based network they use to run the city's computers that we wrote about last year. True to Largo's "City of Progress" motto, these guys have not been standing still. Now they're talking about Linux-based terminals in all the city's police cars. Microsoft has tried -- and failed -- to bring them into the proprietary fold. And, possibly most important, we have an amazing cost figure that ought to make you ask your local politicians why their IT operations aren't as efficient as Largo's. // George -- GEORGE GEORGALIS, System Admin/Architect cell: 347-451-8229 Security Services, Web, Mail, mailto:george@galis.org Multimedia, DB, DNS and Metrics. http://www.galis.org/george To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 14: 8:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF0CE37B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:08:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C16D43E4A for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:08:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBUM74175262; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:07:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200212302207.gBUM74175262@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: dever@getaclue.net Cc: Dave Hayes , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:06:59 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Douglas A Dever writes: > Previously, Dave Hayes (dave@jetcafe.org) wrote: >> Hear hear. >> >> Would it be possible to file a class action civil suit against >> blacklist organizations on a similar basis? > Why would you want to? You had to ask, and you had to ask *me*. Very well...I said a lot of this 10 years ago and I'll say it again. ;) SPAM is not a technical/internet problem. It's a cultural problem. The same force that puts billboards on highways and infomercials on television brings you SPAM. =Nothing= you can do will really be effective at completely stopping it without blocking legitimate email. Marketeers exist and are going to find some way to grab your attention and send you a message, regardless of the medium. Fighting it wastes energy and time better spent on other positive things. Blacklisters (e.g. SPEWS) have, of late, been blacklisting more than just spamhauses, they are blacklisting innocents. In effect, they are attempting to use their blacklist to force our support for their agenda. This is far far worse than spam, in my opinion. > It's time for everyone to understand that e-mail is not free. I think a lot of people understand that. Attempting to force them to understand anything is a futile endeavour, regardless of the thing you want them to understand. Try it sometime. > Sending spam over someone elses network costs them money. When you > spam my customers, I have to pay for the bandwidth, the disk space, > and the manhours in the call center to explain to customers how to > protect themselves. Consider the volume of SPAM that you complain about. If that volume was legitimate email, would you be complaining? I daresay that you wouldn't. Thus your complaint is about the content of the volume of email in question. I consider any complaints about content of human to human communication highly irrelevant as a long time email administrator, irrespective of the content. But I digress... There's two things you can do that I think are more sane than blacklists. One is to use some kind of personal or site-wide spam tagger. I use spam assassin, which works well enough as long as you defang it away from using blacklists to tag spam. You want to tag the spam only, but still deliver it. Let people decide for themselves what they want to see. Tpwo is to teach people about the concept of the "innerbox" which is necessary even with a spam-free internet, cause there are more people out there than you can handle in your inbox. The "innerbox" is generated by filtering email where From: lines match a list of people that you want to respond to at a priority higher than your regular inbox. It's not hard to set up in most mail readers. ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< Honest (adj.) - Someone who is secretly regarded by everyone as an enemy. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 14:37:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9003337B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1816743EA9 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:37:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBUMar175586; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:36:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200212302236.gBUMar175586@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: dever@getaclue.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:36:48 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Douglas A Dever writes: > Some blacklisters have different criteria than others. The only > time I know of Steve Linford's SBL adding a block that was not a > spamhaus was when they recently added Verio's corporate mail servers > to force an issue. Some lists try to keep innocents from being > caught up in the rbl. Other lists are run like SPEWS. In the words > of one hollywood Knight, "You must choose, but choose wisely..." Yes, and up until recently I've had no problem with others choosing to delegate censorship to an outside "authority" ... as long as that doesn't affect me or my users. =) The practice of widening the blacklist coverage to force complaints is not only dishonorable but I highly question the effectiveness thereof. I understand that at least one person I know is actually switching ISPs over this issue, preferring to find one that doesn't use blacklists. > Assuming one considers an autogenerated, harvested list being fed > into a mass mailing application to truely be "human to human" > communication... Well, I do. Do you watch television? (I dont anymore because of the commercials.) Do you drive on the road? Do you read magazines? Guess what? It's humans that create those ads. ;) It would surprise many old-timer people who know me to know that I despise commercials and marketed advertising. Nevertheless, to allow one evil to justify another is yet a third evil. > Both are good and easily implemented solutions. Now we come back to > trying to make people understand something forceably. :-) This is an age old problem of course. If you manage to do this, you get programmable human robots. No more intellectual freedom. ;) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< The king arrived at the resturant where Nasrudin had been left in charge. The king ordered an omelette. After his meal, when he saw the check he raised his eyebrows. "Eggs must be very costly here. Are they as scarce as that?" "It is not the eggs, your majesty...it is the visits of kings." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 14:52: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABCB37B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C21943ED4 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:52:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0157.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.157] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18T8lH-0007V7-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:51:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3E10CDB7.14CA8139@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:50:31 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212301015.gBUAFI171021@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a493103ed5939023f6708c3bcd502410b62601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > Brad Knowles writes: > > All server admins should fully understand these issues when they > > subscribe to a given black list. Any that do not will run the risk > > of having criminal negligence charges filed against them. Indeed, > > many that do fully understand these issues will run the risk of > > having criminal negligence charges being filed against them. > > Hear hear. > > Would it be possible to file a class action civil suit against > blacklist organizations on a similar basis? Yes, if you could stand the company you'd be keeping... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 15:12:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E386A37B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 769DE43EA9 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:12:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0157.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.157] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18T94y-0002R2-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:12:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3E10D280.458E221D@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:10:56 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212302207.gBUM74175262@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4a048bb9ca5786fbfd395df57762fcda3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > SPAM is not a technical/internet problem. It's a cultural problem. The > same force that puts billboards on highways and infomercials on > television brings you SPAM. =Nothing= you can do will really be > effective at completely stopping it without blocking legitimate email. Issuing time-limited certificates that grant permission to send email to participating mail servers, and which will not be reissued after a SPAM event, by way of the contractual obligations of the issuing authority, will make the cost be the cost of a domain registration, and potentially the cost of an IP address block assignment. This raises the economic cost of sending SPAM, to the point that it may no longer be economically feasible to send it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 15:15:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 225DB37B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:15:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4FCF43E4A for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:15:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0157.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.157] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18T987-0002wK-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:15:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3E10D344.8D824039@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:14:12 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212302236.gBUMar175586@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a494cdd762bcba36647f729f045d55ada62601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > > Both are good and easily implemented solutions. Now we come back to > > trying to make people understand something forceably. :-) > > This is an age old problem of course. If you manage to do this, you get > programmable human robots. No more intellectual freedom. ;) SPAM is a systems engineering problem. No more or no less. Human beings don't have the intellectual freedom to be able to ignore gravity or inertia; so this make them robots? If the SPAM enforcement was an emergent property of the system used to communicate SPAM -- and other information -- then not sending SPAM would be as natural as not walking down the street, suspended six inches in the air. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 15:19: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE95B37B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:19:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4547343EC2 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:19:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBUNHq176262; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:17:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200212302317.gBUNHq176262@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:17:47 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Yes, if you could stand the company you'd be keeping... Oh, Hi Terry! Listen, you know we are just going to go back and forth until I start arguing the benefits of irrationality...so can we save time and just start there? ;) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< Reporter (n.) - 1. A cat waiting at a mousehole. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 15:22:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99DD937B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:22:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4F743EB2 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:22:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0157.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.157] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18T9Eg-0003vw-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:22:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3E10D4DA.CDC52946@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:20:58 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212302317.gBUNHq176262@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a494cdd762bcba3664f8f28620e5d9428ea8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Yes, if you could stand the company you'd be keeping... > > Oh, Hi Terry! Listen, you know we are just going to go back and forth > until I start arguing the benefits of irrationality...so can we save > time and just start there? > > ;) Why don't we start with your response to my other message, about systems engineering and emergent a complex behaviours that result from simple rule sets? Personally, I'd like to argue about raising the cost of the sending of repeat SPAM, while leaving the cost of sending non-SPAM and/or initial SPAM, fixed. Are you arguing by omission that it's impossible to design such a system? If so, how do you address my example of the inability of people to deny the existance of gravity and inertia? Thanks, -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 15:26:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ACE037B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:26:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 357B243ED1 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:26:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBUNPh176368; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:25:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200212302325.gBUNPh176368@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:25:38 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > SPAM is a systems engineering problem. No more or no less. Perhaps, but the existence of anti-spammer zealots is an age old human problem. Religious zealotry is a part of the human meme I guess. > Human beings don't have the intellectual freedom to be able > to ignore gravity or inertia; so this make them robots? You attempt to weaken the letter of my point without paying attention to the spirit of it. Attempting to force you to understand the spirit of it by responding to your attempt to whittle away at the letter is futile, you don't seem to understand it nor do I think you will even if I craft a logio-mathematical proof. See? =) > If the SPAM enforcement was an emergent property of the system > used to communicate SPAM -- and other information -- then not > sending SPAM would be as natural as not walking down the street, > suspended six inches in the air. Oh lord, let us woe the day that content is used as a means of determining which email is to be transported and which is not. ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go, because, man, they're gone. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 15:28:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB5B937B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:28:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52BC443EC2 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:28:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0157.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.157] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18T9Ky-0005Ti-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:28:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3E10D660.8CDD5F97@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:27:28 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212302325.gBUNPh176368@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a494cdd762bcba366485530149fa0c69d4a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > > If the SPAM enforcement was an emergent property of the system > > used to communicate SPAM -- and other information -- then not > > sending SPAM would be as natural as not walking down the street, > > suspended six inches in the air. > > Oh lord, let us woe the day that content is used as a means of > determining which email is to be transported and which is not. Why? Even unlimited freedom of speech is not a guarantee of an audience. Do you spend as much energy bitching at your local cable television company for not putting you on the air to voice your philosophy to the masses? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 15:31:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD5D737B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail011.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail011.syd.optusnet.com.au [210.49.20.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C42143EA9 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:31:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ianjp@hypermax.net.au) Received: from hypermax.net.au (golax6-031.dialup.optusnet.com.au [211.28.134.31]) by mail011.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gBUNVBX11328 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:31:11 +1100 Message-ID: <3E10D746.D8BF1F9F@hypermax.net.au> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:31:18 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: diskless workstation - minimum requirements? References: <20021228135828.A26212-100000@m20.unixathome.org> <3E107B16.78D02E29@hypermax.net.au> <20021230203211.GA1743@trot.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org George Georgalis wrote: [...] > There is more to cost than hardware too... > > http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/12/04/2346215.shtml?tid=19 > > - By Robin 'Roblimo' Miller - > > We're back in Largo, Florida, checking on advances in the Linux-based > network they use to run the city's computers that we wrote about last > year. True to Largo's "City of Progress" motto, these guys have not > been standing still. Now they're talking about Linux-based terminals > in all the city's police cars. Microsoft has tried -- and failed -- to > bring them into the proprietary fold. And, possibly most important, > we have an amazing cost figure that ought to make you ask your local > politicians why their IT operations aren't as efficient as Largo's. The question is what is going to grab the business users eye (and mind first)? If Dan could perhaps have the diskless machine running a web browser with a page of links to articles like this? Just a suggestion. Ian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 15:32:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E24937B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:32:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10CD043EC2 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:32:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBUNVW176452; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:31:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200212302331.gBUNVW176452@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:31:27 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Dave Hayes wrote: >> Terry Lambert writes: >> > Yes, if you could stand the company you'd be keeping... >> >> Oh, Hi Terry! Listen, you know we are just going to go back and forth >> until I start arguing the benefits of irrationality...so can we save >> time and just start there? >> >> ;) > Why don't we start with your response to my other message, > about systems engineering and emergent a complex behaviours > that result from simple rule sets? Because the assumptions you call "systems engineering" and "emergent behaviors" may not apply when dealing with a large space of humanity. We are still stuck there, at the very least you and I disagree about the amount of applicability these have. > Personally, I'd like to argue about raising the cost of the > sending of repeat SPAM, while leaving the cost of sending > non-SPAM and/or initial SPAM, fixed. I'd actually agree with you there. In fact, this is programmed into my mail filters. If you send the exact same message (same meaning "MD5 checksum") to my mail filters, it only lets the first one through. Of course this is trivial to defeat. > Are you arguing by omission that it's impossible to design > such a system? If so, how do you address my example of the > inability of people to deny the existance of gravity and > inertia? Your analogy is arbitrary. People -do- deny the existence of both those forces. Whether they are "right" or not depends on the circle of people they are addressing. I certainly wouldn't address a PhD in physics with this denial, but I might address a group of new age "spiritual" people that way. ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 15:43:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADE7D37B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-232-220-15.client.attbi.com [12.232.220.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A85143EA9 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:43:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gBUNhhZs002118; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:43:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id gBUNhgqv002117; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:43:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:43:42 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Dave Hayes Cc: Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Message-ID: <20021230234342.GA2072@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Dave Hayes , Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200212301015.gBUAFI171021@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200212301015.gBUAFI171021@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Dave Hayes : > Brad Knowles writes: > > All server admins should fully understand these issues when they > > subscribe to a given black list. Any that do not will run the risk > > of having criminal negligence charges filed against them. Indeed, > > many that do fully understand these issues will run the risk of > > having criminal negligence charges being filed against them. > > Hear hear. > > Would it be possible to file a class action civil suit against > blacklist organizations on a similar basis? It's been done...so the blacklisters just move to a distributed model, making it difficult to find a specific target to sue. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 15:46:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BC237B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:46:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965ED43E4A for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:46:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBUNjn176767; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:45:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200212302345.gBUNjn176767@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:45:44 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Dave Hayes wrote: ... >> > If the SPAM enforcement was an emergent property of the system >> > used to communicate SPAM -- and other information -- then not >> > sending SPAM would be as natural as not walking down the street, >> > suspended six inches in the air. >> >> Oh lord, let us woe the day that content is used as a means of >> determining which email is to be transported and which is not. > > Why? > Even unlimited freedom of speech is not a guarantee of an audience. This is the argument used by people who wish to fool people into thinking there is no freedom of speech. I will refrain from addressing it here. > Do you spend as much energy bitching at your local cable television > company for not putting you on the air to voice your philosophy to > the masses? Heavens no, my philosophy is not for everyone. It's only for those who are willing to understand. ;) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< "When they came for the 2nd Amendment, I said nothing, for I owned no gun. Then the sixth was next to go, and I remained silent, as I was not on trial. They took away the fourth, and I said nothing, as I had nothing to hide. And then they came for the First, and I could say nothing." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 15:59:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7576637B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-232-220-15.client.attbi.com [12.232.220.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD7D43EB2 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:59:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gBUNxtZs002150; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:59:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id gBUNxs7u002149; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:59:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:59:54 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Dave Hayes Cc: dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Message-ID: <20021230235954.GB2072@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Dave Hayes , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200212302207.gBUM74175262@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200212302207.gBUM74175262@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Dave Hayes : > Douglas A Dever writes: > > Previously, Dave Hayes (dave@jetcafe.org) wrote: > >> Hear hear. > >> > >> Would it be possible to file a class action civil suit against > >> blacklist organizations on a similar basis? > > Why would you want to? > > You had to ask, and you had to ask *me*. Very well...I said a lot > of this 10 years ago and I'll say it again. ;) > > SPAM is not a technical/internet problem. It's a cultural problem. The > same force that puts billboards on highways and infomercials on > television brings you SPAM. =Nothing= you can do will really be > effective at completely stopping it without blocking legitimate email. > Marketeers exist and are going to find some way to grab your attention > and send you a message, regardless of the medium. Fighting it wastes > energy and time better spent on other positive things. True, but what makes SPAM different from other forms of advertising is the cost model. When you get junk mail, someone had to pay for printing and delivery. Consequently, they expect that you will be interested because they need to get a reasonably high response rate (say 1%) in order to make the advertisement pay off. With SPAM, the cost falls upon the recipient. Spammers don't care whether you're interested because they can send millions upon millions of copies for virtually no cost to them. Moreover, the Internet provides a degree of anonymity. Since everyone and his dog can send SPAM, spammers are, for the most part, far less reputable than businesses that use traditional communication media. To fix the problem technically, you need to change the cost model, or have some sort of authentication for email. Both of these are a long way from general use, unfortunately. (BTW, do you think you could fix your reference headers before you get into another mega-discussion with Terry, so it's easier for me to find the entertaining parts? ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 16:38: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15FDF37B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A683E43EA9 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:38:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBV0bH177154; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:37:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200212310037.gBV0bH177154@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: David Schultz Cc: dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:37:12 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz writes: > True, but what makes SPAM different from other forms of > advertising is the cost model. ... > To fix the problem technically, you need to change the cost model, > or have some sort of authentication for email. Both of these are > a long way from general use, unfortunately. I agree with this somewhat, however I am loathe to make cost dependent in any way on content. In order to preserve the status quo of communication, I'd like to be absolutely content neutral. If the cost were based on the amount of mail sent, I'd say that would be sufficient. > (BTW, do you think you could fix your reference headers before you > get into another mega-discussion with Terry, so it's easier for me > to find the entertaining parts? ;-) Heh. I'm using the mailing list, which is perhaps why references headers (an artifact of NNTP) don't process here. ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< "Trying to control information in the network age is about as successful as pissing into the wind." - Keith Henson, in an article on the AABBS prosecution, _Computer_underground_Digest_, Jan. 21, 1995. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 18: 1:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8FDB37B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:01:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D2B543E4A for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:01:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0373.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.118] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TBiV-0004nH-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:01:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3E10FA18.4BF5A1CB@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:59:52 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212302331.gBUNVW176452@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b4e07c5b1ffa443d788849a7b21b0302667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > > Why don't we start with your response to my other message, > > about systems engineering and emergent a complex behaviours > > that result from simple rule sets? > > Because the assumptions you call "systems engineering" and "emergent > behaviors" may not apply when dealing with a large space of humanity. Sure they do. Human behaviour, at least relative to groups, is both quantifiable and predictable. > > Personally, I'd like to argue about raising the cost of the > > sending of repeat SPAM, while leaving the cost of sending > > non-SPAM and/or initial SPAM, fixed. > > I'd actually agree with you there. In fact, this is programmed into my > mail filters. If you send the exact same message (same meaning "MD5 > checksum") to my mail filters, it only lets the first one through. > > Of course this is trivial to defeat. Only because it doesn't cost money to register a new domain, in order to defeat it, because the system does not enforce against sending SPAM through it on an expense item basis. In other words, there is no closed negative feedback loop in the design of the system, as it exists today. > > Are you arguing by omission that it's impossible to design > > such a system? If so, how do you address my example of the > > inability of people to deny the existance of gravity and > > inertia? > > Your analogy is arbitrary. People -do- deny the existence of both > those forces. Whether they are "right" or not depends on the circle > of people they are addressing. I certainly wouldn't address a PhD in > physics with this denial, I might address a group of new age > "spiritual" people that way. Yet a falling anvil from the top of the building will not respect their beliefs. Beliefs that contradict reality are unconvincing to reality, even if they convince other people... until reality smacks them on the head with an anvil, as part of a negative feedback mechanism built into the fabric of the universe. All this means with regard to SPAM is that it behooves us to build a negative feedback mechnaism into the mail delivery infrastructure, and let people argue with it when it smacks them on the head with an anvil. You can't argue with the laws of physics (well, you can... but you will always lose; gotta love the laws of physics...). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 18: 2:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69BD37B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:02:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5994D43EE6 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:02:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0373.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.118] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TBjZ-0004yo-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:02:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3E10FA5E.2D811557@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:01:03 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz Cc: Dave Hayes , Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212301015.gBUAFI171021@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <20021230234342.GA2072@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b4e07c5b1ffa443ded88a9286bdcaa6ba7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz wrote: > > Would it be possible to file a class action civil suit against > > blacklist organizations on a similar basis? > > It's been done...so the blacklisters just move to a distributed > model, making it difficult to find a specific target to sue. Cool. The triumph of systems engineering against attempts to legislate morality. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 18: 3:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7C137B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:03:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56AFF43ED4 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:03:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from plongeur@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id gBV24VvW021392; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 21:04:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from plongeur@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (plongeur@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id gBV24VME021388; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 21:04:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 21:04:31 -0500 (EST) From: Sodiering in the Army of the Lord To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Schultz , Dave Hayes , Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , , Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. In-Reply-To: <3E10FA5E.2D811557@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20021230210409.I21361-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Top Secret Personal Copy to Comrades Kamenev and Zinoviev Dear Terry Lambert: You have been so rude as to summon my wife to the telephone and use bad language. Although she had told you that she was prepared to forget this, the fact nevertheless became known through her to Zinoviev and Kamenev. I have no intention of forgetting so easily what has been done against me, and it goes without saying that what has been done against my wife I consider having been done against me as well. I ask you , therefore, to think it over whether you are prepared to withdraw what you have said and to make your apologies, or whether you prefer that relations between us should be broken off. Respectfully yours, Lenin March 5, 1923 On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > David Schultz wrote: > > > Would it be possible to file a class action civil suit against > > > blacklist organizations on a similar basis? > > > > It's been done...so the blacklisters just move to a distributed > > model, making it difficult to find a specific target to sue. > > Cool. The triumph of systems engineering against attempts to > legislate morality. 8-). > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 18: 9: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5979737B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:09:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C528143E4A for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:09:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0373.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.118] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TBq0-00061E-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:09:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3E10FBEC.492CD4EE@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:07:40 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212302345.gBUNjn176767@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b4e07c5b1ffa443dda3a8dfdd8112919a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Why? > > Even unlimited freedom of speech is not a guarantee of an audience. > > This is the argument used by people who wish to fool people into > thinking there is no freedom of speech. I will refrain from addressing > it here. Again, why? I believe in the (acknowledged by the 4th ammendment) right to free speech. That doesn't mean that people have to listen to me, or to take what I say to heart, as if it were gospel. The right of someone to proselytize me stops at the point I slam my front door in their face. Your argument is that I should not be allowed to close my own door, or to buy locks for that door from a third party. > > Do you spend as much energy bitching at your local cable television > > company for not putting you on the air to voice your philosophy to > > the masses? > > Heavens no, my philosophy is not for everyone. It's only for those who > are willing to understand. ;) Understanding is not a guarantee of acceptance or acquiesence. We can understand your argument, and still believe you're wrong... I think that's the part you don't understand... how someone, who has been exposed to The Wisdom Of Dave(tm) can decide that it's not something they want to live by... b -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 18:14:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E8DC37B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:14:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9040943E4A for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:14:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0373.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.118] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TBvL-0006q2-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:14:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3E10FD38.87438C83@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:13:12 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz Cc: Dave Hayes , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212302207.gBUM74175262@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <20021230235954.GB2072@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b4e07c5b1ffa443d06480da44c51f321666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz wrote: > Thus spake Dave Hayes : > > SPAM is not a technical/internet problem. It's a cultural problem. > > True, but what makes SPAM different from other forms of > advertising is the cost model. So change the culture. The nature of the culture is an emergent property of the medium; therefore, even if it is not a technical problem, it is amenable to a technical solution: modification of the medium. > To fix the problem technically, you need to change the cost model, > or have some sort of authentication for email. Both of these are > a long way from general use, unfortunately. Actually, you want to have authorization, not authentication. You could probably care less about authentication, and it seems to me that authentication is the part that Dave objects to, anyway. The point of authorization is to change the cost model, anyway, so in the limit, you are talking about economics in both your approaches. > (BTW, do you think you could fix your reference headers before you > get into another mega-discussion with Terry, so it's easier for me > to find the entertaining parts? ;-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 18:22:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D54237B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5DE43EA9 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:22:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0373.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.118] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TC3D-00002x-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:22:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3E10FF20.117C34D8@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:21:20 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: David Schultz , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212310037.gBV0bH177154@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a46741d75f312dde1f4704df68020f7566350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > I agree with this somewhat, however I am loathe to make cost dependent > in any way on content. In order to preserve the status quo of > communication, I'd like to be absolutely content neutral. If the cost > were based on the amount of mail sent, I'd say that would be > sufficient. The USPS has already tried, once in the past, to charge postage for email sent, when email looked to be destroying their business model (charge a lot of postage for personal communications to subsidize delivery of papers, magazines, and advertising, and carry a lot of the latter, in order to ensure that personnel utilization remains high enough to justify headcount). So... if it were at all feasible to use your approach, then why did the cost of first class stamps go up, but the cost of a bulk mail permit not go up, about a month ago? IMO, the reason is that there is political favoritism involved, and unless you can get that out of the process, your suggested approach is infeasible. What we need is something that works *in spite of* people's predelictions, not something that denies the existance of them. > > (BTW, do you think you could fix your reference headers before you > > get into another mega-discussion with Terry, so it's easier for me > > to find the entertaining parts? ;-) > > Heh. I'm using the mailing list, which is perhaps why references > headers (an artifact of NNTP) don't process here. I'm using the mailing list, as well. The "In-Reply-To:" header is based on the "Message-Id:" of the message being replied to. I suggest you look at RFC 2822. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 18:46: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8EB437B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:46:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 350EB43EB2 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:46:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBV2c0177895; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:38:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200212310238.gBV2c0177895@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:37:55 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Dave Hayes wrote: >> > Why don't we start with your response to my other message, >> > about systems engineering and emergent a complex behaviours >> > that result from simple rule sets? >> >> Because the assumptions you call "systems engineering" and "emergent >> behaviors" may not apply when dealing with a large space of humanity. > > Sure they do. LOL. You can't prove that assertion, you don't have the means. > Human behaviour, at least relative to groups, is both quantifiable > and predictable. I disagree, and here we meet the classic Lambert/Hayes impasse. Welcome back! >> > Are you arguing by omission that it's impossible to design >> > such a system? If so, how do you address my example of the >> > inability of people to deny the existance of gravity and >> > inertia? >> >> Your analogy is arbitrary. People -do- deny the existence of both >> those forces. Whether they are "right" or not depends on the circle >> of people they are addressing. I certainly wouldn't address a PhD in >> physics with this denial, I might address a group of new age >> "spiritual" people that way. > > Yet a falling anvil from the top of the building will not respect > their beliefs. You'd be surprised. I've seen instances with my own eyes where the laws of physics haven't held. I know I take great risk saying this, because this is akin to telling a Christian that Jesus was just another man...but that's my experience. > Beliefs that contradict reality are unconvincing to reality Even the belief that there is one and only one objective reality which everyone shares whether they want to or not? > You can't argue with the laws of physics (well, you can... but you > will always lose; gotta love the laws of physics...). When you can explain the magic of David Copperfield or David Blane, I'll listen to this argument. ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< "He who angers you conquers you." --Elizabeth Kenny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 19: 3:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A398D37B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:03:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A8D043EA9 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:03:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0373.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.118] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TCgF-00066W-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:03:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3E11088E.C98AD497@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:01:34 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sodiering in the Army of the Lord Cc: David Schultz , Dave Hayes , Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <20021230210409.I21361-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a454d25d27242867bc111f5556dd882f3ba7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sodiering in the Army of the Lord wrote: > > > > Would it be possible to file a class action civil suit against > > > > blacklist organizations on a similar basis? > > > > > > It's been done...so the blacklisters just move to a distributed > > > model, making it difficult to find a specific target to sue. > > > > Cool. The triumph of systems engineering against attempts to > > legislate morality. 8-). [ ... ] > Respectfully yours, > > Lenin > > March 5, 1923 Lenin was being fed only selected information by his wife, at the time, information which was intentionally biased, by her, against Stalin. Most historical sources ascribe his succeptability to such manipulation by his wife to his disease. By the time Lenin died in January of 1924, he had suffered four severe strokes which left him partially paralyzed and unable to speak. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 19:17:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28F5A37B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:17:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A176943E4A for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:17:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0373.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.118] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TCuQ-0007kT-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:17:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3E110BFF.3A0B5A1B@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:16:15 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212310238.gBV2c0177895@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b9131a8dd0357c83cd3e44e996c5ba7ca7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > >> Because the assumptions you call "systems engineering" and "emergent > >> behaviors" may not apply when dealing with a large space of humanity. > > > > Sure they do. > > LOL. You can't prove that assertion, you don't have the means. You mean, of course, that I can't prove it to you, due to your willful ignorance of the calculus necessary to the proof. 8-). > > Human behaviour, at least relative to groups, is both quantifiable > > and predictable. > > I disagree, and here we meet the classic Lambert/Hayes impasse. > Welcome back! These mailing lists are completely predictable because the FreeBSD project itself is completely predictable, as a variation of the non-linear Richardson equation describing a mutual security game called "GloboCop". This is a very elementary mutual security game, which is easy to understand and model, if you are willing to learn how to solve partial differential equations. > >> Your analogy is arbitrary. People -do- deny the existence of both > >> those forces. Whether they are "right" or not depends on the circle > >> of people they are addressing. I certainly wouldn't address a PhD in > >> physics with this denial, I might address a group of new age > >> "spiritual" people that way. > > > > Yet a falling anvil from the top of the building will not respect > > their beliefs. > > You'd be surprised. I've seen instances with my own eyes where the > laws of physics haven't held. I know I take great risk saying this, > because this is akin to telling a Christian that Jesus was just > another man...but that's my experience. Feel free to demonstrate them repeatably under laboratory conditions... you will win the acceptance of all true scientists. > > Beliefs that contradict reality are unconvincing to reality > > Even the belief that there is one and only one objective reality which > everyone shares whether they want to or not? Does that one contradict reality? > > You can't argue with the laws of physics (well, you can... but you > > will always lose; gotta love the laws of physics...). > > When you can explain the magic of David Copperfield or David Blane, > I'll listen to this argument. They are perceptual tricks. Almost all visual tricks are based on the fundamental wiring of human beings. If you want me to come up with a way to duplicate a particular trick, then provide a reference for the trick, so that I can personally observe its operation. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 19:25:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E3C937B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C6543ED8 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:25:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from plongeur@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id gBV3QcvW061320; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:26:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from plongeur@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (plongeur@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id gBV3Qcfe061317; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:26:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:26:38 -0500 (EST) From: Sodiering in the Army of the Lord To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Schultz , Dave Hayes , Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , , Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. In-Reply-To: <3E11088E.C98AD497@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20021230222621.D61262-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Sodiering in the Army of the Lord wrote: > > > > > Would it be possible to file a class action civil suit against > > > > > blacklist organizations on a similar basis? > > > > > > > > It's been done...so the blacklisters just move to a distributed > > > > model, making it difficult to find a specific target to sue. > > > > > > Cool. The triumph of systems engineering against attempts to > > > legislate morality. 8-). > [ ... ] > > Respectfully yours, > > > > Lenin > > > > March 5, 1923 > > > Lenin was being fed only selected information by his wife, at the > time, information which was intentionally biased, by her, against > Stalin. Most historical sources ascribe his succeptability to such > manipulation by his wife to his disease. By the time Lenin died in > January of 1924, he had suffered four severe strokes which left him > partially paralyzed and unable to speak. > > -- Terry > That's just great, terry. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 19:42:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A60E837B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:42:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F24843E4A for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:42:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18TDIr-000GDu-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:42:53 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 91BC91668 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 04:42:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 85EC9F04 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 04:42:42 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id D5D09225D9; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 04:42:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 04:42:42 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Message-ID: <20021231034242.GK2346@raggedclown.net> References: <20021230210409.I21361-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> <3E11088E.C98AD497@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E11088E.C98AD497@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lenin ? You mean George Bush surely ? Some charitable soul must be able to teach him to speak properly. Before he napalms babies. Or was that a former president ? I get them all confused, -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 30 23:50:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA9037B401 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 23:50:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D5AB43E4A for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 23:50:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0049.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.49] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18THAJ-0005I5-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 23:50:20 -0800 Message-ID: <3E114BE7.122C6826@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 23:48:55 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sodiering in the Army of the Lord Cc: David Schultz , Dave Hayes , Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <20021230222621.D61262-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43e01467bb38bf866574ec5cacd0286ff93caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sodiering in the Army of the Lord wrote: > > Lenin was being fed only selected information by his wife, at the > > time, information which was intentionally biased, by her, against > > Stalin. Most historical sources ascribe his succeptability to such > > manipulation by his wife to his disease. By the time Lenin died in > > January of 1924, he had suffered four severe strokes which left him > > partially paralyzed and unable to speak. > > That's just great, terry. Forgive me if I look at the bigger picture, and, by analogy, suggest you look at the context in which your own situation exists. I just thought it rather an ironic choice of quote. If you are going to make a veiled threat by allegory, in the future, you may wish to consider your allegory more carefully, oh "plunger". The grievance in the letter you quoted, wherein Lenin defends his wife against Stalin's imprecations -- which happened to be accurate, in the situation -- was no more real than your own grievance, which causes you to post as you do. Lenin had no real truth on his side when he made his claims; but at least he could plead "diminished capacity", in defense of his tirade, should it have come to that. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 0: 3:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3452237B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AA543EC2 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:03:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from plongeur@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id gBV84N13033439; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:04:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from plongeur@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (plongeur@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id gBV84NMs033425; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:04:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:04:22 -0500 (EST) From: Sodiering in the Army of the Lord To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Schultz , Dave Hayes , Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , , Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. In-Reply-To: <3E114BE7.122C6826@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20021231030334.G31829-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have no idea what you're talking about. I really don't. I just found the letter humourous, and responded with it to a random thread. On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Sodiering in the Army of the Lord wrote: > > > Lenin was being fed only selected information by his wife, at the > > > time, information which was intentionally biased, by her, against > > > Stalin. Most historical sources ascribe his succeptability to such > > > manipulation by his wife to his disease. By the time Lenin died in > > > January of 1924, he had suffered four severe strokes which left him > > > partially paralyzed and unable to speak. > > > > That's just great, terry. > > Forgive me if I look at the bigger picture, and, by analogy, > suggest you look at the context in which your own situation > exists. I just thought it rather an ironic choice of quote. > > If you are going to make a veiled threat by allegory, in the > future, you may wish to consider your allegory more carefully, > oh "plunger". > > The grievance in the letter you quoted, wherein Lenin defends his > wife against Stalin's imprecations -- which happened to be accurate, > in the situation -- was no more real than your own grievance, which > causes you to post as you do. Lenin had no real truth on his side > when he made his claims; but at least he could plead "diminished > capacity", in defense of his tirade, should it have come to that. > > -- Terry > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 0:29:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3D637B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:29:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7450343EC2 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:29:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBV8Sn179280; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200212310828.gBV8Sn179280@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:28:44 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Dave Hayes wrote: >> Terry Lambert writes: >> > Why? >> > Even unlimited freedom of speech is not a guarantee of an audience. >> >> This is the argument used by people who wish to fool people into >> thinking there is no freedom of speech. I will refrain from addressing >> it here. > > Again, why? I believe in the (acknowledged by the 4th ammendment) > right to free speech. That doesn't mean that people have to listen > to me, or to take what I say to heart, as if it were gospel. The > right of someone to proselytize me stops at the point I slam my > front door in their face. You are not allowed to place your hand on their jaw and close their mouth. > Your argument is that I should not be allowed to close my own door, > or to buy locks for that door from a third party. Nope, not even close. >> > Do you spend as much energy bitching at your local cable television >> > company for not putting you on the air to voice your philosophy to >> > the masses? >> >> Heavens no, my philosophy is not for everyone. It's only for those who >> are willing to understand. ;) > > Understanding is not a guarantee of acceptance or acquiesence. You presume I want either state. I don't. All I "want" is for people to let others make their own decisions. The arguments you present lead to exactly the opposite state. ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< "If a man does keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer." - Henry David Thoreau To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 0:36:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96C6B37B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:36:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2739743EC5 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:36:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBV8ZJ179351; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:35:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200212310835.gBV8ZJ179351@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:35:14 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Dave Hayes wrote: >> >> Because the assumptions you call "systems engineering" and "emergent >> >> behaviors" may not apply when dealing with a large space of humanity. >> > >> > Sure they do. >> >> LOL. You can't prove that assertion, you don't have the means. > > You mean, of course, that I can't prove it to you, due to your > willful ignorance of the calculus necessary to the proof. 8-). That and mostly because -all- people do not have predicatve behavior sets. Some do, but not all. >> > Human behaviour, at least relative to groups, is both quantifiable >> > and predictable. >> >> I disagree, and here we meet the classic Lambert/Hayes impasse. >> Welcome back! > > These mailing lists are completely predictable Looking at a sample of the population of the lists, I'd say this is more true than it is for some equal random sampling of humans. > because the FreeBSD > project itself is completely predictable, as a variation of the > non-linear Richardson equation describing a mutual security game > called "GloboCop". And heeere we go again. >> >> Your analogy is arbitrary. People -do- deny the existence of both >> >> those forces. Whether they are "right" or not depends on the circle >> >> of people they are addressing. I certainly wouldn't address a PhD in >> >> physics with this denial, I might address a group of new age >> >> "spiritual" people that way. >> > >> > Yet a falling anvil from the top of the building will not respect >> > their beliefs. >> >> You'd be surprised. I've seen instances with my own eyes where the >> laws of physics haven't held. I know I take great risk saying this, >> because this is akin to telling a Christian that Jesus was just >> another man...but that's my experience. > > Feel free to demonstrate them repeatably under laboratory > conditions... It's the laboratory conditions themselves which prevent the display of such things. > you will win the acceptance of all true scientists. I don't want their acceptance. I want people to be sane, for some arbitrary definition of sanity that I see but cannot elucidate. So it's not about what I want. ;) >> > Beliefs that contradict reality are unconvincing to reality >> >> Even the belief that there is one and only one objective reality which >> everyone shares whether they want to or not? > > Does that one contradict reality? Define "reality"? >> > You can't argue with the laws of physics (well, you can... but you >> > will always lose; gotta love the laws of physics...). >> >> When you can explain the magic of David Copperfield or David Blane, >> I'll listen to this argument. > > They are perceptual tricks. Almost all visual tricks are based > on the fundamental wiring of human beings. > If you want me to come up with a way to duplicate a particular > trick, then provide a reference for the trick, so that I can > personally observe its operation. Blane levitates on TV. That's about the best I can do, there are a lot of recorded magic tricks on video and I'm sure these people perform somewhere. ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< Politically Correct - From "Poly" meaning "many", "Ticks" meaning "blood sucking leeches", "Core" meaning "the center of, and "Rectum" meaning "what you release crap out of". YOU figure it out. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 0:37:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D1B637B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:37:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C76BE43E4A for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:37:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18THtu-000FIr-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:37:26 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id CB05C1668 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:37:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id D84B8F04 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:37:14 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id E3700225D9; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:37:14 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:37:14 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Message-ID: <20021231083714.GL2346@raggedclown.net> References: <200212310238.gBV2c0177895@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E110BFF.3A0B5A1B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E110BFF.3A0B5A1B@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You guys nust have been a long time in rehearsal for that tour-de-force (that's French by the way, it means .. mmm well you know what it means), Actually what we are faced with here is spam about spam. Since non of you appear to be serious, or even mentally stable, I will take it as your new year's gift. Although I would prefer another 512MB of DDR memory. My soon to be web-server awaits... I bought a desk the other day, a do-it-yourself job, like sex without a partner. I have a bad back, I asked if the thing was heavy. "No, No" I was assured as the assistant nearly had a heart attack bringing it up from the basement. He did offer to open the door for me though, The fucking thing weighed in at about 40 kilogrames (I am sure "units" will convert that to US pounds for you). I could not lift the thing. I live less than 5 minutes walk from the shop (those of you who live in Los Angeles may need an explanation about what walking is. Your feet were not specifically designed to press the gas and stop pedal in your cars. They were actually meant so you could put one of them in front of the other and move). Anyway, I paid a height-challenged beggar on the street 7 Euros to carry if for me. He balanced it on his head. You want to see life ? Move to Rotterdam, Have a joyful 2003. May all your troubles weigh in at less than 40 KGs, -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 0:44: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 430A537B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E10EF43ED1 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:44:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0049.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.49] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TI07-00010y-00; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:43:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3E115873.60BB5F34@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:42:27 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212310828.gBV8Sn179280@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4f6e2e058a3c7c5548c2d3969c94af90d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Dave Hayes wrote: > >> Terry Lambert writes: > >> > Why? > >> > Even unlimited freedom of speech is not a guarantee of an audience. > >> > >> This is the argument used by people who wish to fool people into > >> thinking there is no freedom of speech. I will refrain from addressing > >> it here. > > > > Again, why? I believe in the (acknowledged by the 4th ammendment) > > right to free speech. That doesn't mean that people have to listen > > to me, or to take what I say to heart, as if it were gospel. The > > right of someone to proselytize me stops at the point I slam my > > front door in their face. > > You are not allowed to place your hand on their jaw and close > their mouth. But I'm allowed to slam the door, right? > > Your argument is that I should not be allowed to close my own door, > > or to buy locks for that door from a third party. > > Nope, not even close. A blacklist is a just lock that you obtain from a third party, which will not open for people you don't want coming through your door. > > Understanding is not a guarantee of acceptance or acquiesence. > > You presume I want either state. I don't. All I "want" is for people > to let others make their own decisions. The arguments you present lead > to exactly the opposite state. Hardly; people can make their own decisions as much as they want, particularly when it comes to blacklisting of SPAM'mers by their ISP: discontinue their ISP service, and obtain service from some other ISP. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 0:55:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00EB637B405 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6143E43EE6 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:55:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0049.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.49] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TIB6-0001ji-00; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:55:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3E115B1D.72ED3826@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:53:49 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: Brad Knowles , Harry Tabak , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212310835.gBV8ZJ179351@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4f6e2e058a3c7c5542c2dbed2076ca8e7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Dave Hayes wrote: > >> >> Because the assumptions you call "systems engineering" and "emergent > >> >> behaviors" may not apply when dealing with a large space of humanity. > >> > > >> > Sure they do. > >> > >> LOL. You can't prove that assertion, you don't have the means. > > > > You mean, of course, that I can't prove it to you, due to your > > willful ignorance of the calculus necessary to the proof. 8-). > > That and mostly because -all- people do not have predicatve behavior > sets. Some do, but not all. Again, we are talking about predicting the behaviour of groups, e.g.: any "large space of humanity". For individuals, like Charles Manson, we have prisons and mental institutions, to deal with the fact that we can't predict that their prior antisocial behaviours will not be repeated. For the most part, society continues to lock someone up when it *can't* predict their behaviour (i.e. during a parole hearing process). > >> > Human behaviour, at least relative to groups, is both quantifiable > >> > and predictable. > >> > >> I disagree, and here we meet the classic Lambert/Hayes impasse. > >> Welcome back! > > > > These mailing lists are completely predictable > > Looking at a sample of the population of the lists, I'd say this > is more true than it is for some equal random sampling of humans. Not really. People who are locked up or dead are very easy to predict, from one moment to the next, and the larger society will (predicatbly) lock up or make dead those people whose behaviour is anti-social. Which leads to the predictability of sociable behaviour by the remainder. > It's the laboratory conditions themselves which prevent the display of > such things. Or that they aren't real? Occam's razor. Lightbulbs work. The Catholic Church had nearly 2000 years to come up with working lightbulbs, using your philosophical approach, and Occam's razor achieved them in less than 200, using mine. > >> > Beliefs that contradict reality are unconvincing to reality > >> > >> Even the belief that there is one and only one objective reality which > >> everyone shares whether they want to or not? > > > > Does that one contradict reality? > > Define "reality"? That which the behaviour of is not infleunced by beliefs. > > They are perceptual tricks. Almost all visual tricks are based > > on the fundamental wiring of human beings. > > If you want me to come up with a way to duplicate a particular > > trick, then provide a reference for the trick, so that I can > > personally observe its operation. > > Blane levitates on TV. That's about the best I can do, there are > a lot of recorded magic tricks on video and I'm sure these people > perform somewhere. Blane demonstrated the technique behind the trick in his special "Street Magic". Pick something that isn't already publically refuted by the performer himself. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 3:25:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356A437B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:25:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B9043EC2 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:25:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBVBPG181119; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:25:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200212311125.gBVBPG181119@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:25:11 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ We're at it again, random CCs stripped out of courtesy ] Terry Lambert writes: > Dave Hayes wrote: ... >> Terry Lambert writes: >> > Dave Hayes wrote: >> >> Terry Lambert writes: >> >> > Why? >> >> > Even unlimited freedom of speech is not a guarantee of an audience. >> >> >> >> This is the argument used by people who wish to fool people into >> >> thinking there is no freedom of speech. I will refrain from addressing >> >> it here. >> > >> > Again, why? I believe in the (acknowledged by the 4th ammendment) >> > right to free speech. That doesn't mean that people have to listen >> > to me, or to take what I say to heart, as if it were gospel. The >> > right of someone to proselytize me stops at the point I slam my >> > front door in their face. >> >> You are not allowed to place your hand on their jaw and close >> their mouth. > > But I'm allowed to slam the door, right? It's your door. It's their mouth. The analogy doesn't apply in an electronic medium. Controlling another's communication is not honorable. Tuning out unwanted communication is honorable. The distinction is obvious, even if you don't want it to be. >> > Your argument is that I should not be allowed to close my own door, >> > or to buy locks for that door from a third party. >> >> Nope, not even close. > > A blacklist is a just lock that you obtain from a third party, > which will not open for people you don't want coming through > your door. Nonsense. Blacklists are evil, most always generate false positives, and have nothign to do with locks and doors. >> > Understanding is not a guarantee of acceptance or acquiesence. >> >> You presume I want either state. I don't. All I "want" is for people >> to let others make their own decisions. The arguments you present lead >> to exactly the opposite state. > > Hardly; people can make their own decisions as much as they > want, particularly when it comes to blacklisting of SPAM'mers > by their ISP: discontinue their ISP service, and obtain service > from some other ISP. Exactly what I recommend when a blacklisting service includes innocents in an attempt to force others to do their will. Zealotry, even in the name of science, is a strong poison. ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< It is a poor workman who blames his tools. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 3:38:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C5637B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:38:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E32AA43EA9 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:38:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBVBcF181183; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:38:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200212311138.gBVBcF181183@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:38:10 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ CC's stripped out of courtesy, it's the Terry and Dave show, live on your mailing list! Script ideas anyone? ] Terry Lambert writes: > Dave Hayes wrote: >> Terry Lambert writes: >> > Dave Hayes wrote: >> >> >> Because the assumptions you call "systems engineering" and "emergent >> >> >> behaviors" may not apply when dealing with a large space of humanity. >> >> > >> >> > Sure they do. >> >> >> >> LOL. You can't prove that assertion, you don't have the means. >> > >> > You mean, of course, that I can't prove it to you, due to your >> > willful ignorance of the calculus necessary to the proof. 8-). >> >> That and mostly because -all- people do not have predicatve behavior >> sets. Some do, but not all. > > Again, we are talking about predicting the behaviour of groups, > e.g.: any "large space of humanity". Which begs the question of "why?"... > For individuals, like Charles Manson, we have prisons and mental > institutions, to deal with the fact that we can't predict that > their prior antisocial behaviours will not be repeated. For the > most part, society continues to lock someone up when it *can't* > predict their behaviour (i.e. during a parole hearing process). This is not exactly true, it locks them up when someone exhibits a behavior they have declared "wrong". To attempt to analogize unpredictability to criminality opens up a can of worms I dont think you want opened. No matter how much you rationalize, people are irrational. They are chaotic. Could you have predicted Jim Jones? >> >> > Human behaviour, at least relative to groups, is both quantifiable >> >> > and predictable. >> >> >> >> I disagree, and here we meet the classic Lambert/Hayes impasse. >> >> Welcome back! >> > >> > These mailing lists are completely predictable >> >> Looking at a sample of the population of the lists, I'd say this >> is more true than it is for some equal random sampling of humans. > > Not really. People who are locked up or dead are very easy to > predict, from one moment to the next, and the larger society > will (predicatbly) lock up or make dead those people whose > behaviour is anti-social. Which leads to the predictability of > sociable behaviour by the remainder. Grim. I don't buy this, of course, but it paints a grim picture. >> It's the laboratory conditions themselves which prevent the display of >> such things. > Or that they aren't real? You still have not truly defined "real". >> >> > Beliefs that contradict reality are unconvincing to reality >> >> >> >> Even the belief that there is one and only one objective reality which >> >> everyone shares whether they want to or not? >> > >> > Does that one contradict reality? >> >> Define "reality"? > > That which the behaviour of is not infleunced by beliefs. You cannot possibly perceive that which you have defined. You have also questioned the existence of this previously. This is contradictory. Try again. >> > They are perceptual tricks. Almost all visual tricks are based >> > on the fundamental wiring of human beings. >> > If you want me to come up with a way to duplicate a particular >> > trick, then provide a reference for the trick, so that I can >> > personally observe its operation. >> >> Blane levitates on TV. That's about the best I can do, there are >> a lot of recorded magic tricks on video and I'm sure these people >> perform somewhere. > > Blane demonstrated the technique behind the trick in his > special "Street Magic". He did? Gee, I'm sorry I missed that. I took a still of the video and couldn't figure it out. > Pick something that isn't already publically refuted by the > performer himself. 8-) No. All that does is give you incentive to find a refutation, which you will given the true nature of the universe. What you cannot see is your own belief in non-belief, and this belief blinds you to the very mechanism of belief operating in you. You won't accept what you would actually have to do to observe this mechanism in action in yourself. Therefore all argument with you along this line of reality is futile. It's like trying to argue me out of wanting to see True Free Speech everywhere...quite impossible but perhaps entertaining at times. ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< If you ever reach total enlightenment while you're drinking a beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 3:53:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90FD137B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-156-171-195.jan.bellsouth.net [66.156.171.195]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C716943EA9 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:53:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 2F98C1F3B; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 05:53:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 05:53:17 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dave Hayes , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Message-ID: <20021231115317.GA5023@over-yonder.net> References: <200212302345.gBUNjn176767@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E10FBEC.492CD4EE@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E10FBEC.492CD4EE@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 30, 2002 at 06:07:40PM -0800 I heard the voice of Terry Lambert, and lo! it spake thus: > > Again, why? I believe in the (acknowledged by the 4th ammendment) > right to free speech. That doesn't mean that people have to listen Really? That's weird; all my 4th amendment talks about is what boils down to right of privacy; somehow, the ink talking about freedom of speech ran up under the 1st amendment heading. I must speak to these irresponsible printers O:-> -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 8: 2:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D14937B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:02:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D0E743ED4 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:02:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) id gBVG2ljG079439 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:02:47 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gBVG2kNG079432 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:02:46 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E11BFAB.7050302@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:02:51 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD controlled radio.. ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone know of a PCI/ISA card that you can slap in a FreeBSD box, and change the station (frequecy) from within FreeBSD? It would be awesome if it also received the NOAA weather stuff too.. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Beware the fury of a patient man. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 8:32:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DDE437B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:32:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF8143EC2 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:32:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.205] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TPJa-0003Np-00; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:32:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3E11C648.F0C88A0B@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:31:04 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212311125.gBVBPG181119@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a44c7f6deb39e88aff123c90da7f9d2c873ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > >> You are not allowed to place your hand on their jaw and close > >> their mouth. > > > > But I'm allowed to slam the door, right? > > It's your door. It's their mouth. The analogy doesn't apply in an > electronic medium. Controlling another's communication is not > honorable. Tuning out unwanted communication is honorable. The > distinction is obvious, even if you don't want it to be. Making my mail server not accept connections from their IP address is the same as locking my door. > > A blacklist is a just lock that you obtain from a third party, > > which will not open for people you don't want coming through > > your door. > > Nonsense. Blacklists are evil, most always generate false positives, > and have nothign to do with locks and doors. Locking your keys in your car is a false positive. Taking the wrong keys with you when you leave, and then coming back to find your spouse has locked you out is a false positive. Can you address these physical world false positives for us, so that we then have a model we can apply in the electronic world? Thanks... > > Hardly; people can make their own decisions as much as they > > want, particularly when it comes to blacklisting of SPAM'mers > > by their ISP: discontinue their ISP service, and obtain service > > from some other ISP. > > Exactly what I recommend when a blacklisting service includes > innocents in an attempt to force others to do their will. Then I don't see why it's a problem, if you already have a solution in hand. > Zealotry, even in the name of science, is a strong poison. As is any zealotry. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 8:45:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF57237B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:45:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F5D43EB2 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.205] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TPW9-0005Ty-00; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:45:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3E11C954.C7B21010@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:44:04 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212311138.gBVBcF181183@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4da76cddeec60b607b2faed143ec7ebd6667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > > Again, we are talking about predicting the behaviour of groups, > > e.g.: any "large space of humanity". > > Which begs the question of "why?"... I thought that would be patently obvious: to permit us to design minimally intrusive systems with the emergent properties we are interested in obtaining. By understanding the probabalistic behaviour of the group, we can design a system which will have the least overall conflict with the desires of the group. > > For individuals, like Charles Manson, we have prisons and mental > > institutions, to deal with the fact that we can't predict that > > their prior antisocial behaviours will not be repeated. For the > > most part, society continues to lock someone up when it *can't* > > predict their behaviour (i.e. during a parole hearing process). > > This is not exactly true, it locks them up when someone exhibits a > behavior they have declared "wrong". To attempt to analogize > unpredictability to criminality opens up a can of worms I dont think > you want opened. I'm more than happy to open it: it's very easy to predict, on the basis of negative inference, based on the modelling of the society in which the acts are expected to occur. The simple definition is: any action against the normative force of the society which you *can* predict will, predictably, be labeled criminal by that society. > No matter how much you rationalize, people are irrational. They are > chaotic. Could you have predicted Jim Jones? Yes. Not the specific individual who would fill the role, but certainly the effect of a strange attractor of that shape. > >> > These mailing lists are completely predictable > >> > >> Looking at a sample of the population of the lists, I'd say this > >> is more true than it is for some equal random sampling of humans. > > > > Not really. People who are locked up or dead are very easy to > > predict, from one moment to the next, and the larger society > > will (predicatbly) lock up or make dead those people whose > > behaviour is anti-social. Which leads to the predictability of > > sociable behaviour by the remainder. > > Grim. I don't buy this, of course, but it paints a grim picture. Human societies have always been, in the limit, willing to turn to the use of force in order to achieve their ends. It is the nature of humans to do this. > >> Define "reality"? > > > > That which the behaviour of is not infleunced by beliefs. > > You cannot possibly perceive that which you have defined. And your point in stating that is supposed to be what? > You have also questioned the existence of this previously. Actually, I've questioned your formulation of it, because I did not agreee with the denotations that you wanted it to have. I did not agree with your preferences for human nature, vs. the facts. > >> > They are perceptual tricks. Almost all visual tricks are based > >> > on the fundamental wiring of human beings. > >> > If you want me to come up with a way to duplicate a particular > >> > trick, then provide a reference for the trick, so that I can > >> > personally observe its operation. > >> > >> Blane levitates on TV. That's about the best I can do, there are > >> a lot of recorded magic tricks on video and I'm sure these people > >> perform somewhere. > > > > Blane demonstrated the technique behind the trick in his > > special "Street Magic". > > He did? Gee, I'm sorry I missed that. I took a still of the video and > couldn't figure it out. So because you can not, no one can? There's a huge flaw in that theory: Blane himself figured it out. > Therefore all argument with you along this line of reality is > futile. It's like trying to argue me out of wanting to see True > Free Speech everywhere...quite impossible but perhaps entertaining at > times. Anytime someone uses "true" as an adjective, you know they are redefining something... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 8:49:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEFC037B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:49:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D505743F28 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:49:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0205.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.205] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TPZp-00064Q-00; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:49:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3E11CA3A.A22D463@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:47:54 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Dave Hayes , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212302345.gBUNjn176767@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E10FBEC.492CD4EE@mindspring.com> <20021231115317.GA5023@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4da76cddeec60b607892d370fb0941f46666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > On Mon, Dec 30, 2002 at 06:07:40PM -0800 I heard the voice of > Terry Lambert, and lo! it spake thus: > > > > Again, why? I believe in the (acknowledged by the 4th ammendment) > > right to free speech. That doesn't mean that people have to listen > > Really? That's weird; all my 4th amendment talks about is what boils > down to right of privacy; somehow, the ink talking about freedom of > speech ran up under the 1st amendment heading. > > I must speak to these irresponsible printers O:-> Damn. Meant 1st ammendment. By way of explanation, not excuse, I was thinking of the 4th ammendment because I just watched armed officers board my aircraft and take some people off, and I was thinking about all the rights that have been taken away at airports on the basis of "fighting the war on terror", and how ineffective they were in preventing the people from boarding themselves or their luggage. I was rather preoccupied, wondering if all their carry-ons and their shoes had been removed from the plane. 8-(. -- Terry. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 12: 5:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677EC37B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:05:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3CA43EC5 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:05:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id AC79E8FB; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:05:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB3BC8F5; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:05:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:05:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. In-Reply-To: <20021231115317.GA5023@over-yonder.net> Message-ID: <20021231120345.F33984-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Mon, Dec 30, 2002 at 06:07:40PM -0800 I heard the voice of > Terry Lambert, and lo! it spake thus: > > > > Again, why? I believe in the (acknowledged by the 4th ammendment) > > right to free speech. That doesn't mean that people have to listen > > Really? That's weird; all my 4th amendment talks about is what boils > down to right of privacy; somehow, the ink talking about freedom of > speech ran up under the 1st amendment heading. > > I must speak to these irresponsible printers O:-> Nah, Terry's just not expressing himself properly again. Proof reading would probably fix that. I expect he meant to apply the Fourth to his right to close the door, and simply got confused when he started talking about the First. Try to read his mind a little better next time :) Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 12:42:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79AB637B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:42:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A3443EB2 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:42:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBVKfr183480; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:41:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200212312041.gBVKfr183480@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:41:48 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Dave Hayes wrote: >> > Again, we are talking about predicting the behaviour of groups, >> > e.g.: any "large space of humanity". >> >> Which begs the question of "why?"... > > I thought that would be patently obvious: to permit us to design > minimally intrusive systems with the emergent properties we are > interested in obtaining. The proof is in the pudding, as they say (for some arbitrary value of 'they'). Go do this. If it works, use it. > By understanding the probabalistic behaviour of the group, we can > design a system which will have the least overall conflict with the > desires of the group. Still an unfounded assertion, according to scientific worldview. >> > For individuals, like Charles Manson, we have prisons and mental >> > institutions, to deal with the fact that we can't predict that >> > their prior antisocial behaviours will not be repeated. For the >> > most part, society continues to lock someone up when it *can't* >> > predict their behaviour (i.e. during a parole hearing process). >> >> This is not exactly true, it locks them up when someone exhibits a >> behavior they have declared "wrong". To attempt to analogize >> unpredictability to criminality opens up a can of worms I dont think >> you want opened. > > I'm more than happy to open it: it's very easy to predict, on > the basis of negative inference, based on the modelling of the > society in which the acts are expected to occur. The simple > definition is: any action against the normative force of the > society which you *can* predict will, predictably, be labeled > criminal by that society. The problem is, the group under observation changes as you apply 'predictive' methodolgies. What you are suggesting will have the predictable and ultimate end of legislation which will punish citizens for not being "normal" enough or "predictable" enough. This means that the gene pool loses diversity, and we eventually die as a race. It also means we lose most of our artists and free thinkers. I don't think you want that. >> No matter how much you rationalize, people are irrational. They are >> chaotic. Could you have predicted Jim Jones? > Yes. Not the specific individual who would fill the role, but > certainly the effect of a strange attractor of that shape. Could you have predicted the time, place, and emergence of such an attractor? >> >> > These mailing lists are completely predictable >> >> >> >> Looking at a sample of the population of the lists, I'd say this >> >> is more true than it is for some equal random sampling of humans. >> > >> > Not really. People who are locked up or dead are very easy to >> > predict, from one moment to the next, and the larger society >> > will (predicatbly) lock up or make dead those people whose >> > behaviour is anti-social. Which leads to the predictability of >> > sociable behaviour by the remainder. >> >> Grim. I don't buy this, of course, but it paints a grim picture. > > Human societies have always been, in the limit, willing to turn > to the use of force in order to achieve their ends. It is the > nature of humans to do this. This is exactly why humans, as a race, have not evolved past the level they are at. >> >> Define "reality"? >> > >> > That which the behaviour of is not infleunced by beliefs. >> >> You cannot possibly perceive that which you have defined. > > And your point in stating that is supposed to be what? There's two. Your definitions can't possibly be useful. You ultimately believe in an objective reality. >> You have also questioned the existence of this previously. > > Actually, I've questioned your formulation of it, because I did > not agreee with the denotations that you wanted it to have. I > did not agree with your preferences for human nature, vs. the > facts. Who's facts? >> >> > They are perceptual tricks. Almost all visual tricks are based >> >> > on the fundamental wiring of human beings. >> >> > If you want me to come up with a way to duplicate a particular >> >> > trick, then provide a reference for the trick, so that I can >> >> > personally observe its operation. >> >> >> >> Blane levitates on TV. That's about the best I can do, there are >> >> a lot of recorded magic tricks on video and I'm sure these people >> >> perform somewhere. >> > >> > Blane demonstrated the technique behind the trick in his >> > special "Street Magic". >> >> He did? Gee, I'm sorry I missed that. I took a still of the video and >> couldn't figure it out. > > So because you can not, no one can? I didn't say that, geez. I was searching for an example, and this wasn't the one I needed. >> Therefore all argument with you along this line of reality is >> futile. It's like trying to argue me out of wanting to see True >> Free Speech everywhere...quite impossible but perhaps entertaining at >> times. > > Anytime someone uses "true" as an adjective, you know they are > redefining something... Well...duh. ;) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< One only fights what one thinks is real. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 12:42:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146BB37B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:42:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A90F43ED1 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:42:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0049.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.49] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TTDI-00015P-00; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:42:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3E1200CF.1DCBCFCA@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:40:47 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <20021231120345.F33984-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a475e65c306efd4e6715d43e6b63ca4117350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden wrote: > > I must speak to these irresponsible printers O:-> > > Nah, Terry's just not expressing himself properly again. Proof reading > would probably fix that. I expect he meant to apply the Fourth to his > right to close the door, and simply got confused when he started talking > about the First. Try to read his mind a little better next time :) What Jamie was thinking when he wrote that... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 13: 5:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 699A237B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:05:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D850643ED8 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:05:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0049.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.49] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TTa3-0004aU-00; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:05:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:04:25 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212312041.gBVKfr183480@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b8f6df120272d50caa41d8bf4f0262eda7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > >> > Again, we are talking about predicting the behaviour of groups, > >> > e.g.: any "large space of humanity". > >> > >> Which begs the question of "why?"... > > > > I thought that would be patently obvious: to permit us to design > > minimally intrusive systems with the emergent properties we are > > interested in obtaining. > > The proof is in the pudding, as they say (for some arbitrary > value of 'they'). Go do this. If it works, use it. We do. You're in a very small minority; the rest of us are not complaining. 8-). > > By understanding the probabalistic behaviour of the group, we can > > design a system which will have the least overall conflict with the > > desires of the group. > > Still an unfounded assertion, according to scientific worldview. That's an incorrect and unsupportable statement of opinion, given that we have working models of the results of such planning (as opposed to non-working models). > > I'm more than happy to open it: it's very easy to predict, on > > the basis of negative inference, based on the modelling of the > > society in which the acts are expected to occur. The simple > > definition is: any action against the normative force of the > > society which you *can* predict will, predictably, be labeled > > criminal by that society. > > The problem is, the group under observation changes as you apply > 'predictive' methodolgies. That's not correct. The "observer effect" you are referring to in a side-wise way here is derived from the Heisenberg uncertainty principle's first statement of "observer effect", which is only applicable at the quantum level (the position and momentum of an electron can not be simultaneously known to an acuracy greater than h-bar over 2). The idea of "observer effect" is nonsense, above the quantum level, and has no place in determining the outcome of macro events which are not themselves quantum-coupled (e.g. as in Schroedinger's Cat). Even in a rapidly changing gestalt, the predictive window is still large enough to make the predictive processes useful. I will agree that this can't be easily applied to individual behaviour (though administering an MMPI to someone is a start on being able to do just that), but the point is one of utility: in the limit, it really doesn't matter where the math comes from, so long as it works. > What you are suggesting will have the predictable and ultimate end > of legislation which will punish citizens for not being "normal" > enough or "predictable" enough. Yes. So what? I suppose you find the idea objectionable, but it's well enough known and accepted that we've named it: "California". > This means that the gene pool loses diversity, and we eventually > die as a race. No and no. First, there is no loss of diversity in the gene pool as a result of external pressure; the genes involve merely become recessive. In fact, without somatic engineering, it's impossible to remove even harmful recessive genes from the gene pool. Second, death as a race is irrelevent: death as a species is much more relevent. Assuming you misspoke, rather than assuming you are a racist of some kind, death as a species does not logically follow as a natural result of a reduction in genetic diversity, or we would all be dead for the lack of it already. > It also means we lose most of our artists and free thinkers. That, also, does not necessarily follow, unless you are a strict structuralist, and believe in genetic predestiny. > I don't think you want that. That's irrelevent to the discussion, I think. > >> No matter how much you rationalize, people are irrational. They are > >> chaotic. Could you have predicted Jim Jones? > > Yes. Not the specific individual who would fill the role, but > > certainly the effect of a strange attractor of that shape. > > Could you have predicted the time, place, and emergence of such an > attractor? The time, yes. The place, no, or rather, only generally (can I divide the world into octets for the purpose?). > >> Grim. I don't buy this, of course, but it paints a grim picture. > > > > Human societies have always been, in the limit, willing to turn > > to the use of force in order to achieve their ends. It is the > > nature of humans to do this. > > This is exactly why humans, as a race, have not evolved past the level > they are at. Spilt milk. If you feel strongly enough about it, then sell out for a short period of time (play by the rules as they are, rather than as you would prefer them to be), get rich, buy land, and establish your own little "Helstrom's Hive". > > And your point in stating that is supposed to be what? > > There's two. Your definitions can't possibly be useful. You > ultimately believe in an objective reality. I'm not a nihilist, if that's what you're getting at... > >> You have also questioned the existence of this previously. > > > > Actually, I've questioned your formulation of it, because I did > > not agreee with the denotations that you wanted it to have. I > > did not agree with your preferences for human nature, vs. the > > facts. > > Who's facts? Yours. The ones you lament have prevented the evolution "past the level they are at", above. > >> Therefore all argument with you along this line of reality is > >> futile. It's like trying to argue me out of wanting to see True > >> Free Speech everywhere...quite impossible but perhaps entertaining at > >> times. > > > > Anytime someone uses "true" as an adjective, you know they are > > redefining something... > > Well...duh. ;) I suppose you've met Richard Stallman and Joy Beech, then? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 18: 9:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADCCE37B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:09:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-156-171-195.jan.bellsouth.net [66.156.171.195]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D301543EB2 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:09:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 7026D1F3B; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 20:09:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 20:09:20 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dave Hayes , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Message-ID: <20030101020920.GB5023@over-yonder.net> References: <200212302345.gBUNjn176767@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E10FBEC.492CD4EE@mindspring.com> <20021231115317.GA5023@over-yonder.net> <3E11CA3A.A22D463@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E11CA3A.A22D463@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 31, 2002 at 08:47:54AM -0800 I heard the voice of Terry Lambert, and lo! it spake thus: > > By way of explanation, not excuse, I was thinking of the 4th > ammendment because I just watched armed officers board my aircraft > and take some people off, and I was thinking about all the rights > that have been taken away at airports on the basis of "fighting > the war on terror", and how ineffective they were in preventing > the people from boarding themselves or their luggage. I was rather > preoccupied, wondering if all their carry-ons and their shoes had > been removed from the plane. 8-(. That would be why, despite the several-fold increase in travel time, I went Greyhound this $HOLIDAY. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 18:40: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E30A137B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:40:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp09.wxs.nl (smtp09.wxs.nl [195.121.6.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F1343ED1 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:40:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@akruijff.dds.nl) Received: from cybertron.kruijff ([213.10.151.186]) by smtp09.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H80KQP01.W30; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 03:40:01 +0100 Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 03:39:16 +0100 From: Alex X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62 Christmas Edition) Personal Reply-To: Alex X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <3415073374.20030101033916@dds.nl> To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dave Hayes , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re[2]: Bystander shot by a spam filter. In-Reply-To: <3E11C648.F0C88A0B@mindspring.com> References: <200212311125.gBVBPG181119@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E11C648.F0C88A0B@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dear/Beste Terry, Tuesday, December 31, 2002, 5:31:04 PM, you wrote: > Dave Hayes wrote: >> >> You are not allowed to place your hand on their jaw and close >> >> their mouth. >> > >> > But I'm allowed to slam the door, right? >> >> It's your door. It's their mouth. The analogy doesn't apply in an >> electronic medium. Controlling another's communication is not >> honorable. Tuning out unwanted communication is honorable. The >> distinction is obvious, even if you don't want it to be. > Making my mail server not accept connections from their IP address > is the same as locking my door. You who have rented a house with a door. The salesperson who comes by to sell you a product. He sell product that help you stop smoking. You however don't smoke. The salesman talk is mandatory and so is the cost that goes with it. Some of the house owners came up with a design to keep the bad wolfs, i mean salespersons out. There doors keep the salespersons always out. Some time later, some other house owners came up with another design that lets you decide if you wasn't the salespersons out. You have tree choices. 1) Rent from a house owner without a lock. 2) Rent from a house owner with a always on lock. 3) Rent from a house owner with a option to lock. Dave wants that all house owners release option 2 for option 3 and thus option 2 will no longer be available. However the house owners who implemented option two doesn't force you any more than that a care salesmen force you not to ride on water. -- Best regards/Met vriendelijke groet, Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 21:14: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C83E37B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 21:13:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B0443E4A for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 21:13:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0102.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.102] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TbCT-0003yp-00; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 21:13:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3E1278BF.AEC8B235@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 21:12:31 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Dave Hayes , dever@getaclue.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212302345.gBUNjn176767@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E10FBEC.492CD4EE@mindspring.com> <20021231115317.GA5023@over-yonder.net> <3E11CA3A.A22D463@mindspring.com> <20030101020920.GB5023@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a49c259e4e72800f06506ba8398302031ca8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > That would be why, despite the several-fold increase in travel time, I > went Greyhound this $HOLIDAY. I'm sure if there are any terrorists travelling this season, most of them are flying, with the ones carrying the bombs travelling by Greyhound, AmTrack, 1960's VW vans, yellow submarines, or some other route where they don't have to answer the question "Vere Are Your Important Papers" to Major Hochsteader^W^Wthe Travel Safety Administration. It really, really pissed me off that these people were allowed to board, and then taken off, rather than never being allowed on in the first place: it showed me that the security is all for the appearance of doing something, and that it nothing more than an illusion to allay the fears of the general public, without really addressing their causes (I knew that anyway, but it still pissed me off). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 31 23:25: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83CE637B401 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 23:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp0.adl1.internode.on.net (smtp0.adl1.internode.on.net [203.16.214.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F3243EB2 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 23:24:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp635.sa.padsl.internode.on.net [150.101.245.122]) by smtp0.adl1.internode.on.net (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h017Ofp5010780; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:54:42 +1030 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.2/8.12.2) id h017Oe6k090451; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:54:40 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.2/8.12.2av) with ESMTP id h017ObGH090439; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:54:38 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Subject: Re: FreeBSD controlled radio.. ? From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3E11BFAB.7050302@centtech.com> References: <3E11BFAB.7050302@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1041405877.1335.0.camel@chowder.dons.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.0 Date: 01 Jan 2003 17:54:37 +1030 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.6 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.26 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 2003-01-01 at 02:32, Eric Anderson wrote: > Anyone know of a PCI/ISA card that you can slap in a FreeBSD box, and > change the station (frequecy) from within FreeBSD? It would be awesome > if it also received the NOAA weather stuff too.. There's a Brooktree 848/878 based cards which you can control the frequency with. They only do normal FM ranges though. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message