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From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: igor_dorovskoy@agilent.com
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0 & GeForce4 440 Go in Dell Latitude C840 
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On Fri, 31 May 2002 igor_dorovskoy@agilent.com wrote:
> Sorry for X off topic...
>
> Is anybody here got that combination running?
>
> I've seen that Linux world did that with Nvidia's help.
> How to port their solution into freebsd 4.5 box?
>
> Thanks in advance for any possible help,

If the 'nv' driver won't deal with it you're out of luck until NVIDIA does
something about FreeBSD support.

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
| winter@jurai.net |       2 x '84 Volvo 245DL        | ix86,sparc,pmax |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter |  For Great Justice!  | ISO8802.5 4ever |


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2  1:40:43 2002
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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2  3: 7: 3 2002
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:
:Hi Matt and everyone,
:
:I remember that Matt had mentioned adding diffs of the commits to the
:commit-mail, which would make it possible to quickly view what changed
:without leaving the MUA and manually searching for the proper CVS
:diff/rdiff incantation to view the diff.
:
:The idea was resting at the back of my mind, and tonight I hacked this
:Perl script that seems to mostly do what I want, when I pipe a single
:message to it's STDIN in mbox format.  Given a script in Perl or awk
:...

    Very cool!  I'm mostly unavilable for the weekend but when I get back
    I'll look into integrating your perl script with the filter I've
    been working on.  The filter is mostly done but I hadn't written
    the part that generates the commit diff yet. You script may be just
    the ticket.

						-Matt

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2  7:52:22 2002
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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 16:48:47 2002
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Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 19:48:34 -0400
From: Sergey Babkin <babkin@bellatlantic.net>
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Cc: jos@catnook.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Improving GNU make compatibility in BSD make (+ patch)
References: <20020531024250.GA90997@lizzy.catnook.com> <3CF73679.A5AB7886@mindspring.com> <20020531170746.GA93242@lizzy.catnook.com> <3CF7EDC5.CF27B997@mindspring.com>
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Terry Lambert wrote:
> 
> Jos Backus wrote:
> > On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 01:38:17AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > > The biggest problem with GNU make that I've seen is re-expansion
> > > of variable variables.
> > >
> > > The suggested fix doesn't address that, so it won't fix the most
> > > common "compatability problem".
> >
> > So what? It fixes (in a backward-compatible way because ``$^'' isn't used in
> > BSD make) one incompatibility without which I have to have two different
> > Makefiles in the simple case I am thinking about. It's at least an incremental
> > improvement that doesn't break anything afaIcs.
> 
> 1)      Please see the references I cited.  I believe "$^" is used in
>         a BSD make, even if it's not in the FreeBSD make, and that in
>         a future version of FreeNSD make, it ought to have the function
>         of the BSD make that uses it, not GNU make.
> 
> 2)      I am not comfortable with changing FreeBSD make into GNU make.

I would really like all the existing make branches (BSD, GNU, SVR4)
converge to a single syntax. Otherwise it's too much pain, and the
only workaround is either to use only the classic V7 make features
or write makefiles for gmake since it's readily available on all
the platforms.
 
> 3)      I am not comfortable adding features to FreeBSD make which
>         render makefiles, which are then written to use these newly
>         added features, non-portable to other BSD systems.

That's easy: don't write makefiles that use these features. Document
them as strongly deprecated and compatibility-only.
 
> 4)      There are *already* enough cases where people have written
>         "sh" scripts with "bash" syntax, so that they *claim* they
>         are "sh" scripts, but are in fact "bash" scripts.  I would
>         hate to see the same thing happen to "makefiles" to turn
>         them into "gmakefiles".

I agree. If any such additions are made, they should be only enabled
by a command-line options. On the other hand, you can just use gmake
to the same effect.
 
> 5)      What you've added is a synonym for something that's already
>         there; it is better to change the makefile to use the existing
>         syntax, then it is to change the "make" to add new syntax.

It means changing every makefile.
 
> 6)      What are you going to do, when you need to compile on Solaris?

SVR4 make extensions are totally incompatible with BSD make extensions,
so nothing changes in this respect: the BSD makefiles don't work
on SVR4.
 
> 7)      What are you going to do when you need to compile on AIX?

Same thing.
 
> 8)      How is "make" different from "cc" or "tar"?  If we are going
>         to add the features, why not "just use GNU make instead"?

Aren't we already using GCC and GNU tar ? Or am I completely missng 
the point of this point ?

-SB

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 19: 7:40 2002
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Subject: Re: Improving GNU make compatibility in BSD make (+ patch) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Jun 2002 19:48:34 EDT."
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>>>>> "Sergey" == Sergey Babkin <babkin@bellatlantic.net> writes:

    Sergey> I would really like all the existing make branches (BSD,
    Sergey> GNU, SVR4) converge to a single syntax. Otherwise it's too
    Sergey> much pain, and the only workaround is either to use only the
    Sergey> classic V7 make features or write makefiles for gmake since
    Sergey> it's readily available on all the platforms.

Fine. We all adopt the Plan 9 mk and make Presotto the gatekeeper
of any further "enhancements."

--lyndon (who doesn't understand why this is an issue, after having
          just converted a *whole* lot of source to work with
	  POSIX make. Standards? Who gives a f*** (I guess ...))

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 19:14:59 2002
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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 19:14:55 -0701
From: Jos Backus <jos@catnook.com>
To: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ab.ca>
Cc: Sergey Babkin <babkin@bellatlantic.net>,
	Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Improving GNU make compatibility in BSD make (+ patch)
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On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:07:16PM -0600, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> --lyndon (who doesn't understand why this is an issue, after having
>           just converted a *whole* lot of source to work with
> 	  POSIX make. Standards? Who gives a f*** (I guess ...))

I just checked the Open Group make definition and I can't find either $^ or
$>. So if we want to be truly standards-compliant perhaps we should remove
support for $> :-)

-- 
Jos Backus                 _/  _/_/_/        Santa Clara, CA
                          _/  _/   _/
                         _/  _/_/_/             
                    _/  _/  _/    _/
jos@catnook.com     _/_/   _/_/_/            use Std::Disclaimer;

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 19:33:21 2002
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To: jos@catnook.com
Cc: Sergey Babkin <babkin@bellatlantic.net>,
	Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Improving GNU make compatibility in BSD make (+ patch) 
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             <20020603021517.GA11452@lizzy.catnook.com> 
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>>>>> "Jos" == Jos Backus <jos@catnook.com> writes:

    Jos> I just checked the Open Group make definition and I can't find
    Jos> either $^ or $>. So if we want to be truly standards-compliant
    Jos> perhaps we should remove support for $> :-)

We are POSIX compliant right now (I think -- I haven't done a strict
comparison between (our) BSD make and POSIX). BSD does have things that
aren't in POSIX, as does GNUmake. Removing the historical BSD syntax
would just break things, so I wouldn't advocate that. We can depricate
the BSD extensions if that seems useful. That's not the same as adding
new incompatible extensions to make (ours, GNUs, or anyone elses).
Writing portable makefiles is already enough of a pain in the ass.

--lyndon (death to feeping creaturism!)

(And yes, I would really miss the BSD/GNU if/then/else makefile
constructs if we went POSIX-anal on this.)

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 19:39:46 2002
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From: Jos Backus <jos@catnook.com>
To: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ab.ca>
Cc: Sergey Babkin <babkin@bellatlantic.net>,
	Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:33:08PM -0600, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> We are POSIX compliant right now (I think -- I haven't done a strict
> comparison between (our) BSD make and POSIX). BSD does have things that
> aren't in POSIX, as does GNUmake. Removing the historical BSD syntax
> would just break things, so I wouldn't advocate that.

Neither would I; claiming that strict POSIX-compliance is the end-all goal
makes no sense imo.

> We can depricate
> the BSD extensions if that seems useful. That's not the same as adding
> new incompatible extensions to make (ours, GNUs, or anyone elses).

My proposal for adding $^ as an alias for $> does not add any
incompatibilities, neither with POSIX nor with any existing BSD make. Only
Terry has said that BSD make used to use $^ but so far he hasn't shown any
proof that this is still in use anywhere.

> Writing portable makefiles is already enough of a pain in the ass.

Writing Makefiles is a pain, period.

> --lyndon (death to feeping creaturism!)
> 
> (And yes, I would really miss the BSD/GNU if/then/else makefile
> constructs if we went POSIX-anal on this.)

Needless to say, I'm certainly not advocating that we do this.

-- 
Jos Backus                 _/  _/_/_/        Santa Clara, CA
                          _/  _/   _/
                         _/  _/_/_/             
                    _/  _/  _/    _/
jos@catnook.com     _/_/   _/_/_/            use Std::Disclaimer;

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 20: 2:15 2002
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From: 454566@kimo.com.tw
Subject: 可詢價~捷運華廈自售~~鄭小姐:0955946855
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================================
捷運華廈自售~~鄭小姐:0955946855
================================
玉成街*號*樓(挑高4米2)

近忠孝捷運後山碑站,權狀約20坪, 全新裝潢,
兩房兩廳一衛,另附車位一個. 掮免. 

意者請洽:
鄭小姐:0955946855  OR
徐先生:0922671795


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 21:39:18 2002
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From: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ab.ca>
Organization: The Frobozz Magic Homing Pigeon Company
To: jos@catnook.com
Cc: Sergey Babkin <babkin@bellatlantic.net>,
	Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Improving GNU make compatibility in BSD make (+ patch) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Jun 2002 19:39:42 -0701."
             <20020603024004.GC11452@lizzy.catnook.com> 
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>>>>> "Jos" == Jos Backus <jos@catnook.com> writes:

    >> Writing portable makefiles is already enough of a pain in the
    >> ass.
    Jos> Writing Makefiles is a pain, period.

Writing makefiles is easy. Writing *portable* makefiles is a pain.
There *is* a difference.

--lyndon

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 21:43:18 2002
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Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:43:06 +1000 (EST)
From: Steven Goodwin <steve@cit.gu.edu.au>
Reply-To: Steven Goodwin <steve@cit.gu.edu.au>
To: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
Cc: igor_dorovskoy@agilent.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0 & GeForce4 440 Go in Dell Latitude C840 
In-Reply-To: <20020602034535.O42854-100000@sasami.jurai.net>
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On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Matthew N. Dodd wrote:
> On Fri, 31 May 2002 igor_dorovskoy@agilent.com wrote:
> > Sorry for X off topic...
> >
> > Is anybody here got that combination running?

<snip>

> > Thanks in advance for any possible help,
> 
> If the 'nv' driver won't deal with it you're out of luck until NVIDIA does
> something about FreeBSD support.
> 

I think the latest (perhaps development) version of XFree86 4.2 has
support for the GeForce 4 (but the FreeBSD port is not yet incorporating
the necessary patches).  I'm sure it was in their changelogs.  I'll have a
look for you .....  Yep, it seems to be in number 23 the changelog @
http://www.xfree86.org/cvs/changes.html although the nv driver page
doesn't reflect this at the moment.  You might need to use cvs and check
out the latest code (http://www.xfree86.org/cvs/) or wait until the next
time the port is updated and should have support for your card. 

Steve



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 21:57: 2 2002
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From: Jos Backus <jos@catnook.com>
To: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ab.ca>
Cc: Sergey Babkin <babkin@bellatlantic.net>,
	Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Improving GNU make compatibility in BSD make (+ patch)
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On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 10:39:02PM -0600, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> >>>>> "Jos" == Jos Backus <jos@catnook.com> writes:
> 
>     >> Writing portable makefiles is already enough of a pain in the
>     >> ass.
>     Jos> Writing Makefiles is a pain, period.
> 
> Writing makefiles is easy. Writing *portable* makefiles is a pain.
> There *is* a difference.

I agree with the portable part.
For small projects, Makefiles are fine imo.

-- 
Jos Backus                 _/  _/_/_/        Santa Clara, CA
                          _/  _/   _/
                         _/  _/_/_/             
                    _/  _/  _/    _/
jos@catnook.com     _/_/   _/_/_/            use Std::Disclaimer;

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 22:29: 1 2002
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To: jos@catnook.com
Cc: Sergey Babkin <babkin@bellatlantic.net>,
	Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Improving GNU make compatibility in BSD make (+ patch) 
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             <20020603024004.GC11452@lizzy.catnook.com> 
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>>>>> "Jos" == Jos Backus <jos@catnook.com> writes:

    Jos> My proposal for adding $^ as an alias for $> does not add any
    Jos> incompatibilities, neither with POSIX nor with any existing BSD
    Jos> make.

Yes, and no. Adding new features doesn't break existing code, but it
encourages new code to use the new features in a non-compatible way. The
import of tcsh on top of csh is a classic of this.  What we have
works. It's not cool and/or sexy. But it works. If you *need* the
features of GNUmake, use GNUmake.

--lyndon

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 22:39:31 2002
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From: Jos Backus <jos@catnook.com>
To: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ab.ca>
Cc: Sergey Babkin <babkin@bellatlantic.net>,
	Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Improving GNU make compatibility in BSD make (+ patch)
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On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 11:28:49PM -0600, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> >>>>> "Jos" == Jos Backus <jos@catnook.com> writes:
> 
>     Jos> My proposal for adding $^ as an alias for $> does not add any
>     Jos> incompatibilities, neither with POSIX nor with any existing BSD
>     Jos> make.
> 
> Yes, and no. Adding new features doesn't break existing code, but it
> encourages new code to use the new features in a non-compatible way. The
> import of tcsh on top of csh is a classic of this.  What we have
> works. It's not cool and/or sexy. But it works. If you *need* the
> features of GNUmake, use GNUmake.
 
Sigh. BSD make and GNU make already _share_ this same feature, it's just that
they _name_ it differently: $> v.s. $^. If POSIX would only adopt one (or
both) we could follow their lead and be done with it. But that's not going to
happen any time soon.

> --lyndon

-- 
Jos Backus                 _/  _/_/_/        Santa Clara, CA
                          _/  _/   _/
                         _/  _/_/_/             
                    _/  _/  _/    _/
jos@catnook.com     _/_/   _/_/_/            use Std::Disclaimer;

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 22:58:43 2002
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References: <20020531024250.GA90997@lizzy.catnook.com> <3CF73679.A5AB7886@mindspring.com> <20020531170746.GA93242@lizzy.catnook.com> <3CF7EDC5.CF27B997@mindspring.com> <3CFAAED2.F98FD7B4@bellatlantic.net>
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Sergey Babkin wrote:
> I would really like all the existing make branches (BSD, GNU, SVR4)
> converge to a single syntax. Otherwise it's too much pain, and the
> only workaround is either to use only the classic V7 make features
> or write makefiles for gmake since it's readily available on all
> the platforms.

I'd like it too, but it's not going to happen, any more than there
will end up being a single file for init (ttys vs. inittab) or a
single syntax for that file.

v7 is an exaggeration, I think, unless you think the move to remove
the __STDC__ and __P() code recently has been a mistake.  The common
subset, I think, is the same subset supported by AIX's "make".  This
all comes back to "if features exist, people will use them", which
really argues *againt* incremental convergence even being possible.


> > 3)      I am not comfortable adding features to FreeBSD make which
> >         render makefiles, which are then written to use these newly
> >         added features, non-portable to other BSD systems.
> 
> That's easy: don't write makefiles that use these features. Document
> them as strongly deprecated and compatibility-only.

Yet, here we are, sanctioning code that uses these deprecated
features, by adding the features to a program that currently
punishes their use...


> > 4)      There are *already* enough cases where people have written
> >         "sh" scripts with "bash" syntax, so that they *claim* they
> >         are "sh" scripts, but are in fact "bash" scripts.  I would
> >         hate to see the same thing happen to "makefiles" to turn
> >         them into "gmakefiles".
> 
> I agree. If any such additions are made, they should be only enabled
> by a command-line options. On the other hand, you can just use gmake
> to the same effect.

This was my argument.  Use "gmake".  Admit the non-portability of
your Makefile's syntax.  Own up to your mistakes.


> > 5)      What you've added is a synonym for something that's already
> >         there; it is better to change the makefile to use the existing
> >         syntax, then it is to change the "make" to add new syntax.
> 
> It means changing every makefile.

To remove a feature that's defined "deprecated before implemented";
not really a heavy problem.


> > 6)      What are you going to do, when you need to compile on Solaris?
> 
> SVR4 make extensions are totally incompatible with BSD make extensions,
> so nothing changes in this respect: the BSD makefiles don't work
> on SVR4.

You mean "Makefiles with BSD specific syntax don't work on SVR4";
the thing that makes a Makefile non-portable is its use of non-portable
syntax.  And that a problem you resolve by chaning the Makefile, not
all instances of "make".


> > 7)      What are you going to do when you need to compile on AIX?
> 
> Same thing.

"Use gmake instead", I guess you mean, unless you work for IBM
in Austin, and have the kerys to the AFS on which the source code
for the AIX version of "make" is hidden, and plan to change AIX
"make" to support GNU syntax, as well.


> > 8)      How is "make" different from "cc" or "tar"?  If we are going
> >         to add the features, why not "just use GNU make instead"?
> 
> Aren't we already using GCC and GNU tar ? Or am I completely missng
> the point of this point ?

Yes and yes.  8-).

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 23:16:56 2002
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Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 23:16:08 -0700
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Subject: Re: Improving GNU make compatibility in BSD make (+ patch)
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Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> Fine. We all adopt the Plan 9 mk and make Presotto the gatekeeper
> of any further "enhancements."

URL for patches to every Makefile in FreeBSD, please...

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 23:28:31 2002
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Subject: Re: Improving GNU make compatibility in BSD make (+ patch)
References: <3CFAAED2.F98FD7B4@bellatlantic.net> <200206030207.g5327Gm1012478@orthanc.ab.ca> <20020603021517.GA11452@lizzy.catnook.com>
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Jos Backus wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:07:16PM -0600, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> > --lyndon (who doesn't understand why this is an issue, after having
> >           just converted a *whole* lot of source to work with
> >         POSIX make. Standards? Who gives a f*** (I guess ...))
> 
> I just checked the Open Group make definition and I can't find either $^ or
> $>. So if we want to be truly standards-compliant perhaps we should remove
> support for $> :-)

Intentionally stepping on the option value namespace in the absence
of a ratified standard is a really stupid thing to do.

But POSIX is N-P incomplete for some problems.  On purpose.

This is because POSIX is not meant to be a useful standard, it is
meant to be an exclusionary standard for competition for government
contracts.  It was primarily meant to keep VAX/VMS, VM/CMS, Windows,
and other OS software from vendors without at least an SVR3 source
license and a per unit royalty agreement with AT&T/USL from
competing on contracts like "Desktop II", "Desktop III", "AFCAC 451",
and so on, and to prevent inclusion of such OS's on the GSA purchasing
schedule.

POSIX is the minimum list of conformance requirements which the UNIX
vendors involved could agree on, because their UNIX implementations
already conformed.

POSIX is so fuzzy in so many areas because there were conflicting
implementations, and they had to write it so that all of them
"complied with POSIX" by default, once the standard was ratified
and made into a CLIN requirement for government contracts.

Do you *really* believe that someone would design a standard with
no way to do a lot of things OSs at the time could already do, *on
purpose*, without some ulterior motive?  That POSIX file locking
semantics are the work of an engineering genius?

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jun  2 23:56:42 2002
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Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> Writing portable makefiles is already enough of a pain in the ass.

No.  It's not.  I've written Makefile's that predate the
consolidation during and after The UNIX Wars; they run fine,
unmodified, on 140 different vendor versions of UNIX.

You are smearing the necessary distinctions between "mapping the
problem space", "abstraction of complexity", and "non-intersection
of mapping sets".


All versions of "make" are attempts to map the same problem space.

The more commands a "make" supports -- the richer the syntax it
supports -- the more terse any given Makefile can be made to solve
an arbitrary problem in the problem space.

The more terse a Makefile, the higher its abstraction of the
complexity of the problem to which it is being brought to bear.

But each "make" has its own way of mapping the problem space; you
can break the space into cubes, or you can break it into non-cubic
trapezoids, or any of a number of elements of abstraction for a
given space: and that gives you one mapping set.

POSIX make semantics map the problem space, but they do so in a
coarse fashion.  What this means is that they are unable to be as
terse as a make with a richer set of available mapping semantics
(e.g. BSD make or GNU make).  The upshot being that restricting
yourself to POSIX make semantics means that your Makefile for an
arbitrary problem will, with certain exceptions, end up being
larger than a Makefile written to use additional features, above
and beyond the POSIX features.  In other words, a mapping set
that is a superset of the POSIX mapping set -- or one, whose
intersection with the POSIX mapping set is not the POSIX mapping
set (i.e. it is missing some POSIX semantics).

You need to be very careful with standards.  When you build a
mapping of a problem space, if that problem space is already
mapped by a standard (e.g. POSIX), then you should minimally
conform to the standard (conforming is defined as the standard
set intersection with your implementations set yeilding the
standard set).

You also need to be very careful with extensions.  Extensions,
even in standards conforming implementations, are a problem in
several ways:

o	If the standard is ever extended, there is a risk that
	your extension will conflict with the new instance of
	the standard.  In general, revised standards will
	conform with existing standards (this is a definition
	for "revised standard" vs. "new standard").

o	If your extensions are used, then software written to
	consume the standard interfaces is portable to your
	implementation, but software written to consume the
	interfaces exported by your implementation are *not*
	portable to other standards conformant implementations.

	In other words, you have attacked the standard through
	"embrace and extend", and you have encouraged the
	creation of non-compliant consumers of the standard
	defined interfaces.

	This is the basis of "The UNIX Wars", and it is also the
	basis of many people's complaints about Microsoft.

o	Your extensions may conflict with the extensions of
	third parties, which will damage the portability of
	the third parties application to your system.

o	Failure to adhere to standards damages the standards process
	by rendering standards meaningless in the face of defacto
	standards based, not on intelligent, informed consensus, but
	on market share.

So ... why are we even having this discussion?

Mostly, it's because people are too lazy to take their extensions
to "make" syntax for finer granularity mapping of the problem space
through the standards process, and want to make "defacto standards":
"when you can't win fairly, cheat".

I would still prefer that programs that need GNU make syntax use
GNU make, and programs that need BSD make syntax use BSD make (and
specifically, use the BSD make from the OP make source tree).

If you are going to build non-standards-conforming Makefile's, at
least be honest about the fact that they aren't conforming, and
don't hide the origin of the non-conformance, so that you avoid
conflicting future contributions as a result of conflicting
divergence from the common superset of the standard (i.e. the
attempted defacto standard end-run around the standards process).

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jun  3  0:31:59 2002
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Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 09:31:51 +0200 (CEST)
From: Harti Brandt <brandt@fokus.gmd.de>
To: igor_dorovskoy@agilent.com
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: XFree86 4.2.0 & GeForce4 440 Go in Dell Latitude C840 
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On Fri, 31 May 2002 igor_dorovskoy@agilent.com wrote:

>Sorry for X off topic...
>
>Is anybody here got that combination running?
>
>I've seen that Linux world did that with Nvidia's help.
>How to port their solution into freebsd 4.5 box?

After a little searching on the net I found a nv.tar.gz that builds a XF86
module that happens to work on my Dell 8200. Perhaps it works also with
the C840. If you can't find it, I can send it to you

harti

>
>Thanks in advance for any possible help,
>Igor
>ua3qrz
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
>

-- 
harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private
              brandt@fokus.fhg.de


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jun  3  0:56: 4 2002
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References: <20020531024250.GA90997@lizzy.catnook.com> <3CF73679.A5AB7886@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Improving GNU make compatibility in BSD make (+ patch)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 15:49:13 +0800
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The reason that autoconf & automake can only run under gmake is=20
gmake will re-read included file if the included file itself is modified =
by
some rules. BSD make does not! so they do not work with BSD make.
for example:

DEP_FILES =3D aaa.d bbb.d ccc.d

$(DEP_FILES): %.d : %.cpp
        @echo "Generating auto dependency for $<"
        @$(SHELL) -ec '$(GXX) -MM $(CXXFLAGS) $< \
  | sed '\''s/\($*\)\.o[ :]*/\1.o $@ : /g'\'' > $@; \
  [ -s $@ ] || rm -f $@'

-include $(DEP_FILES)

when aaa.d and bbb.d and ccc.d are updated, gmake will re-readed it in =
while
BSD make not.
in this example, if I use BSD make, I must first create target "depend" =
in Makefile and
run  the stupid  "make depend"  command everytime I modified my source =
code,
with gmake, I can always run "make" without additional steps and it will =
generates
auto-depend rule before compiling real source code.

David Xu

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Terry Lambert" <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
To: <jos@catnook.com>
Cc: <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: Improving GNU make compatibility in BSD make (+ patch)


> Jos Backus wrote:
> > So BSD make interpreting either `$^' or `$+' as its own `$>' would =
improve
> > compatibility with GNU make Makefiles. I am just not sure which of =
the two GNU
> > make variables maps better to our `$>'. This patch implements the =
former:
>=20
> The biggest problem with GNU make that I've seen is re-expansion
> of variable variables.
>=20
> The suggested fix doesn't address that, so it won't fix the most
> common "compatability problem".
>=20
> If we are going to evolve make into gmake (not a good idea, IMO),
> then probably the place to start is "any port that requires gmake"
> to get it working under "make".
>=20
> I'm not sure, but I believe the other BSD's, and "OpenPorts" have
> modified "make" syntax somewhat.  It's probably a good idea to keep
> compatability with options in the "OpenPorts" camp, more than any
> other, if it ever evolves to fulfill its potential properly.
>=20
> I really hate that many autoconf/automake scripts generate code
> that can ony be run by gmake, and sometimes also requires that
> /bin/sh actually be "bash" instead of "sh".
>=20
> It also occurs to me (from experience with "perl"), that in any
> language where it's posible to do something in more than one way,
> it is then impossible to differentiate "the right way" from "the
> wrong way".  8-(.
>=20
> -- Terry
>=20
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jun  3  5:52:51 2002
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From: igor_dorovskoy@agilent.com
To: steve@cit.gu.edu.au, winter@jurai.net
Cc: igor_dorovskoy@agilent.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: RE: XFree86 4.2.0 & GeForce4 440 Go in Dell Latitude C840 
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Thank you very much Steve!  I'll try to pick up their cvs changes right now.

Igor.

On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Matthew N. Dodd wrote:
> On Fri, 31 May 2002 igor_dorovskoy@agilent.com wrote:
> > Sorry for X off topic...
> >
> > Is anybody here got that combination running?

<snip>

> > Thanks in advance for any possible help,
> 
> If the 'nv' driver won't deal with it you're out of luck until NVIDIA does
> something about FreeBSD support.
> 

I think the latest (perhaps development) version of XFree86 4.2 has
support for the GeForce 4 (but the FreeBSD port is not yet incorporating
the necessary patches).  I'm sure it was in their changelogs.  I'll have a
look for you .....  Yep, it seems to be in number 23 the changelog @
http://www.xfree86.org/cvs/changes.html although the nv driver page
doesn't reflect this at the moment.  You might need to use cvs and check
out the latest code (http://www.xfree86.org/cvs/) or wait until the next
time the port is updated and should have support for your card. 

Steve


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jun  3 10:56: 4 2002
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 11:29:19 +0200
From: Ferruccio Vitale <freebsd@cs.tin.it>
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Hi,

I'm trying to write a kernel module which make use of kernel event.
is there anyone who knows where I can find documentation about this?
Regards,

Ferruccio


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jun  3 15:40: 3 2002
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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 01:39:40 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Aaro J Koskinen <akoskine@cc.helsinki.fi>
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
Cc: Bosko Milekic <bmilekic@unixdaemons.com>,
	<freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>, <freebsd-smp@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: ICU_LEN with IO APIC
In-Reply-To: <3CF7E5C9.82526E0A@mindspring.com>
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On Fri, 31 May 2002, Terry Lambert wrote:

> Bosko Milekic wrote:
> >   I'm not sure but perhaps this is historical (and now also required
> >   again), but if we use a word to mask out interrupts than after 32 we
> >   run out of bits.  "Who needs more than 32 interrupts anyway?!" :-)
>
> Who needs more than 4?

OK, so you guys are running systems with a single IO APIC and even a
single PCI bus... Scalable design. :-)

A.

-- 
Aaro Koskinen
E-mail: aaro@iki.fi            "I'm the ocean, I'm the giant undertow."
http://www.iki.fi/aaro


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jun  3 18:25:53 2002
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From: "Dan Langille" <dan@langille.org>
Organization: DVL Software Limited
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 21:25:25 -0400
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Subject: cvsup doesn't get me what I want
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Folks, I'm having trouble understanding this problem.  I'm trying to use 
cvsup to get stuff onto my website.  This supfile gets things out of the 
tree

$ less ~/phpAdsNew-supfile
*default host=xeon
*default base=/usr/websites/freshports
*default release=cvs
*default delete use-rel-suffix
*default umask=007
*default preserve
*default tag=.
freshports-phpAds

But what I really want is tag=FreshPorts2 but if I use that, I don't get 
anything out of the repo.

The tags exist:

However, for example:

$ cvs stat -v ChangeLog
===================================================================
File: ChangeLog         Status: Up-to-date

   Working revision:    1.1.1.1 Tue Jun  4 01:01:32 2002
   Repository revision: 1.1.1.1 /home/repositories/freshports-
1/phpPgAds/ChangeLog,v
   Sticky Tag:          FreshPorts2 (revision: 1.1.1.1)
   Sticky Date:         (none)
   Sticky Options:      (none)

   Existing Tags:
        cvs                             (revision: 1.1.1.1)
        FreshPorts2                     (revision: 1.1.1.1)


I just don't get it.  Why doesn't tag=FreshPorts2 work?

cheers
-- 
Dan Langille
The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jun  3 20:32:52 2002
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From: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
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FreeBSD 4.6-RC FreeBSD 4.6-RC #1: Sun Jun  2 18:03:01 PDT 2002 i386

pcm0: <CMedia CMI8738> port 0xa400-0xa4ff irq 10 at device 5.0 on pci0

Sound is scratchy... sounds kinda like when you've got a loose
speaker cable.  I swapped the snd_pcm and snd_cmi KLDs for ones built from
4-STABLE on March 9th, and the problem went away.

I'm guessing that cg's MFC on 4/22 caused the breakage.  I haven't tried
this with other hardware yet, but I'll upgrade my laptop to 4.6-RC shortly
and see if this affects the csa driver as well.

- Brian

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                     brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jun  3 22:39: 0 2002
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From: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Subject: Re: cmi sound problems in 4.6-RC
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Following up to myself...

I brought my laptop up to date:

FreeBSD 4.6-RC #1: Mon Jun  3 21:48:05 PDT 2002 i386

pcm0: <CS461x PCM Audio> on csa0

No problems.  Sound is just fine.  The problem seems to be limited to the
cmi driver.

Brian

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                     brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4  3:17:14 2002
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	(envelope-from vel)
From: "Eugene L. Vorokov" <vel@bugz.infotecs.ru>
Message-Id: <200206041017.g54AH5q88222@bugz.infotecs.ru>
Subject: "quota" output
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:17:05 +0400 (MSD)
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Hi,

I was setting up quotas on 20gb disk, and seen this:

vel@bugz:/home/vel # quota -v for_all
Disk quotas for user for_all (uid 1003): 
     Filesystem   usage   quota   limit   grace   files   quota   limit   grace
           /usr13471298       013500000           45321       0       0        

It doesn't look very nice ...

Regards,
Eugene


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4  4:53: 8 2002
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Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 11:05:48 +0200
From: Ferruccio Vitale <freebsd@cs.tin.it>
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Hi,

I'm trying to write a kernel module which make use of kernel event.
is there anyone who knows where I can find documentation about this?
Regards,

Ferruccio




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4  6:37:13 2002
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Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 15:36:33 +0200
From: Ferruccio Vitale <freebsd@cs.tin.it>
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	freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Newbie needs help!!!!!
References: <3CF49F6F.769C7715@cs.tin.it> <1023127562.25407.54.camel@ws-tor-0004>
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O Senhor wrote:

>   hello,
>   In the FreeBSD home page, there is docomentations for developers, that
> talk about it.
>
> On Wed, 2002-05-29 at 06:29, Ferruccio Vitale wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm trying to write a kernel module which make use of kernel event.
> > is there anyone who knows where I can find documentation about this?
> > Regards,
> >
>

Ok, I've already read those pages, real useful to start.
Now I've my module, which creates dynamic sysctl and so on; now I need to
monitor the existence of another process and I tough at kqueue/kevent
method. But are these functions for userland process, aren't they? How
could I do the same in kernel land?

Ferruccio


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4  7:28:41 2002
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From: Hiten Pandya <hitmaster2k@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Newbie needs help!!!!!
To: Ferruccio Vitale <freebsd@cs.tin.it>,
	O Senhor <osenhor@uol.com.br>, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org,
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--- Ferruccio Vitale <freebsd@cs.tin.it> wrote:
> Ok, I've already read those pages, real useful to start.
> Now I've my module, which creates dynamic sysctl and so on; now I need to
> monitor the existence of another process and I tough at kqueue/kevent
> method. But are these functions for userland process, aren't they? How
> could I do the same in kernel land?

Try the kevent(2) manual page.  It has some good amount of information.  I
am including some more pointers for you.  Hope they are useful.  Thanks.

http://www.madison-gurkha.com/publications/kqueue/
http://people.freebsd.org/~jlemon/kqueue_slides/

As a bonus, and example of how  use the kqueue(2)/kevent(2) API:
http://www.monkeys.com/freeware/kqueue-echo.c

Have fun.  Hope this helps.
Regards.

  -- Hiten

__________________________________________________
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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4  8:32:39 2002
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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:32:32 +0200 (CEST)
From: Michal Mertl <mime@traveller.cz>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: max number of tcp cons on STABLE (bug?)
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I like to run stupid benchmarks (http_load) and found the same problem
lots of other people complained about on the lists - "no buffer space
available" and similar on the requests generating machine.

I wanted to let the http_load run for long time so that the number of
Apache processes stabilizes for high load.

But no matter what I configured to kern.maxusers,
net.inet.tcp.{send,recv}space, kern.ipc.somaxconn, kern.ipc.maxsockets,
kern.ipc.nmbclusters, kern.maxfiles, client always starts to fail after
having net.inet.tcp.pcbcount about ~4000 (close to the number of sockets
seen with 'netstat -anf inet'). Output of 'netstat -m' isn't anywhere
close to mbuf exhaustion.

My main observation:
From the names of OIDs I thought the high limit on net.inet.tcp.pcbcount
could be somehow controlled by kern.ipc.maxsockets. That seems to be true
on CURRENT but not on STABLE.

I understand that it's not very common to have more than ~4000 sockets but
I think it should be possible. It can be the reason of others' failures I
guess.


-- 
Michal Mertl
mime@traveller.cz




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4  8:37:36 2002
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From: John Polstra <jdp@polstra.com>
Cc: dan@langille.org
Subject: Re: cvsup doesn't get me what I want
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In article <20020604012638.7CCF63F3A@bast.unixathome.org>,
Dan Langille <dan@langille.org> wrote:
> Folks, I'm having trouble understanding this problem.  I'm trying to use 
> cvsup to get stuff onto my website.  This supfile gets things out of the 
> tree
> 
> $ less ~/phpAdsNew-supfile
> *default host=xeon
> *default base=/usr/websites/freshports
> *default release=cvs
> *default delete use-rel-suffix
> *default umask=007
> *default preserve
> *default tag=.
> freshports-phpAds
> 
> But what I really want is tag=FreshPorts2 but if I use that, I don't get 
> anything out of the repo.
> 
> The tags exist:
> 
> However, for example:
> 
> $ cvs stat -v ChangeLog
> ===================================================================
> File: ChangeLog         Status: Up-to-date
> 
>    Working revision:    1.1.1.1 Tue Jun  4 01:01:32 2002
>    Repository revision: 1.1.1.1 /home/repositories/freshports-
> 1/phpPgAds/ChangeLog,v
>    Sticky Tag:          FreshPorts2 (revision: 1.1.1.1)
>    Sticky Date:         (none)
>    Sticky Options:      (none)
> 
>    Existing Tags:
>         cvs                             (revision: 1.1.1.1)
>         FreshPorts2                     (revision: 1.1.1.1)
> 
> 
> I just don't get it.  Why doesn't tag=FreshPorts2 work?

You should get rid of the "preserve" keyword in your supfile.  It
doesn't really make any sense when working in checkout mode.  But
that's probably not the problem.

I'll help you figure this out if you'll send me the following
information:

    The cvsupd server config files for the collection ("releases"
    and the list file).

    The full pathnames of the cvsupd server config files for the
    collection.

    The command line used to invoke cvsupd.

    The full pathname of the ChangeLog RCS file you used as your
    example, on the server machine.

    The output of "rlog -h ChangeLog,v" on that file on the server.

    The command line used to invoke cvsup on the client machine.

    The output of
	find /usr/websites/freshports/sup -name 'refuse*'
    on the client machine.

    The output of "cvsup -v" on the client and "cvsupd -v" on the
    server.  Please be careful to ensure that your PATH is really
    finding the same copies of these programs that your cron job or
    other mechanism normally executes.

John
-- 
  John Polstra
  John D. Polstra & Co., Inc.                        Seattle, Washington USA
  "Disappointment is a good sign of basic intelligence."  -- Ch鐷yam Trungpa


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From: Mike Silbersack <silby@silby.com>
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Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Michal Mertl wrote:

> My main observation:
> >From the names of OIDs I thought the high limit on net.inet.tcp.pcbcount
> could be somehow controlled by kern.ipc.maxsockets. That seems to be true
> on CURRENT but not on STABLE.
>
> I understand that it's not very common to have more than ~4000 sockets but
> I think it should be possible. It can be the reason of others' failures I
> guess.
>
>
> --
> Michal Mertl
> mime@traveller.cz

Change the following sysctl variables:

net.inet.ip.portrange.first: 49152
net.inet.ip.portrange.last: 65535

That range determines the max number of outbound connections you can have.
(For now, I'll get around to removing that limitation one of these
days...)  You're probably safe moving portrange.first all the way down to
1024, if you really want to, and need that many connections.

Mike "Silby" Silbersack


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4 13:23:46 2002
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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 15:23:34 -0500
From: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@flugsvamp.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Cc: Gerard Roudier <groudier@free.fr>
Subject: Ultra320 drivers?
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I have an IBM box that has a dual LSI 53c1030 controller on the
motherboard.  Our SYM driver doesn't appear to have support for
this device; under Linux it is supported by a Fusion/MPT driver
from LSI.

Any chance of getting a driver for this chip?
-- 
Jonathan

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4 15:22:39 2002
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From: "Dan Langille" <dan@langille.org>
Organization: DVL Software Limited
To: John Polstra <jdp@polstra.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 18:22:15 -0400
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Subject: Re: cvsup doesn't get me what I want
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On 4 Jun 2002 at 8:37, John Polstra wrote:

> In article <20020604012638.7CCF63F3A@bast.unixathome.org>,
> Dan Langille <dan@langille.org> wrote:
> > Folks, I'm having trouble understanding this problem.  I'm trying to use
> > cvsup to get stuff onto my website.  This supfile gets things out of the
> > tree
> > 
> > $ less ~/phpAdsNew-supfile
> > *default host=xeon
> > *default base=/usr/websites/freshports
> > *default release=cvs
> > *default delete use-rel-suffix
> > *default umask=007
> > *default preserve
> > *default tag=.
> > freshports-phpAds
> > 
> > But what I really want is tag=FreshPorts2 but if I use that, I don't get
> > anything out of the repo.
> > 
> > The tags exist:
> > 
> > However, for example:
> > 
> > $ cvs stat -v ChangeLog
> > ===================================================================
> > File: ChangeLog         Status: Up-to-date
> > 
> >    Working revision:    1.1.1.1 Tue Jun  4 01:01:32 2002
> >    Repository revision: 1.1.1.1 /home/repositories/freshports-
> > 1/phpPgAds/ChangeLog,v
> >    Sticky Tag:          FreshPorts2 (revision: 1.1.1.1)
> >    Sticky Date:         (none)
> >    Sticky Options:      (none)
> > 
> >    Existing Tags:
> >         cvs                             (revision: 1.1.1.1)
> >         FreshPorts2                     (revision: 1.1.1.1)
> > 
> > 
> > I just don't get it.  Why doesn't tag=FreshPorts2 work?
> 
> You should get rid of the "preserve" keyword in your supfile.  It
> doesn't really make any sense when working in checkout mode.  But
> that's probably not the problem.
> 
> I'll help you figure this out if you'll send me the following
> information:

Thanks John.

> 
>     The cvsupd server config files for the collection ("releases"
>     and the list file).

[dan@xeon:/home/repositories/sup/freshports-phpAds] $ less list.cvs
upgrade phpPgAds
[dan@xeon:/home/repositories/sup/freshports-phpAds] $ less releases
cvs list=list.cvs prefix=/home/repositories/freebsddiary


>     The full pathnames of the cvsupd server config files for the
>     collection.

Is that obvioius form the pwd above?  

>     The command line used to invoke cvsupd.

from /etc/inetd.conf:
cvspserver    stream  tcp     nowait  root    /usr/bin/cvs    cvs --allow-
root=/home/repo --allow-root=/home/repositories/freebsddiary --allow-
root=/home/cvs-scripts --allow-root=/home/repositories/freshports-1  --
allow-root=/home/repositories/websites pserver

>     The full pathname of the ChangeLog RCS file you used as your
>     example, on the server machine.

/home/repositories/freshports-1/phpPgAds/ChangeLog,v

>     The output of "rlog -h ChangeLog,v" on that file on the server.

[dan@xeon:/home/repositories/freshports-1/phpPgAds] $ rlog -h ChangeLog,v

RCS file: ChangeLog,v
Working file: ChangeLog
head: 1.1
branch: 1.1.1
locks: strict
access list:
symbolic names:
        cvs: 1.1.1.1
        FreshPorts2: 1.1.1.1
keyword substitution: kv
total revisions: 2
----------------------------
===========================================================================
==


>     The command line used to invoke cvsup on the client machine.

[dan@nezlok:/usr/websites/traffic] $ cvsup ~/phpAdsNew-supfile
Connected to localhost
Updating collection freshports-phpAds/cvs
Finished successfully
[dan@nezlok:/usr/websites/traffic] $



>     The output of
>  find /usr/websites/freshports/sup -name 'refuse*'
>     on the client machine.

$ find /usr/websites/freshports/sup -name 'refuse*'
find: /usr/websites/freshports/sup: No such file or directory
$ find /usr/websites/freshports.org/sup -name 'refuse*'
/usr/websites/freshports.org/sup/freshports-www/refuse
/usr/websites/freshports.org/sup/freshports-www/refuse~
/usr/websites/freshports.org/sup/freshports-config/refuse
$

refuse files from above in case they are useful:

$ less /usr/websites/freshports.org/sup/freshports-www/refuse
www/phorum

$ less /usr/websites/freshports.org/sup/freshports-config/refuse
configuration/phorum
configuration/phorum-3.3.2a/1.php
configuration/phorum-3.3.2a/2.php
configuration/phorum-3.3.2a/forums.php


>     The output of "cvsup -v" on the client and "cvsupd -v" on the
>     server.  Please be careful to ensure that your PATH is really
>     finding the same copies of these programs that your cron job or
>     other mechanism normally executes.

Client: $ cvsup -v
CVSup client, non-GUI version
Copyright 1996-2002 John D. Polstra
Software version: SNAP_16_1f
Protocol version: 17.0
Operating system: FreeBSD4
http://www.polstra.com/projects/freeware/CVSup/
Report problems to cvsup-bugs@polstra.com
CVSup is a registered trademark of John D. Polstra

Server: $ /usr/local/sbin/cvsupd -v
CVSup server
Copyright 1996-2002 John D. Polstra
Software version: SNAP_16_1f
Protocol version: 17.0
Operating system: FreeBSD4
http://www.polstra.com/projects/freeware/CVSup/
Report problems to cvsup-bugs@polstra.com
CVSup is a registered trademark of John D. Polstra


-- 
Dan Langille


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4 16: 5:41 2002
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    You can filter commit messages by creating a filter control 
    file on freefall.freebsd.org in /home/dillon/filters.

    Create the file <YOURUSERNAME> in /home/dillon/filters.  Note that the
    only file the filter will recognize is your username.  If the program
    becomes universal we will create a special userid on freefall allowing
    the sysads to create filters for mailing aliases as well (like 're').

	/home/dillon/filters/<YOURUSERNAME>. 

    MAKE SURE THE FILTER IS MODES 644 OR DFILTER WILL NOT BE ABLE TO READ IT!

    There is a sample filter in:

	/home/dillon/filters/SAMPLE
	/home/dillon/filters/dillon  

    You can also look at my filter, but note that my filter is slightly more
    complex because I have to avoid creating a loop in my forward file :-)
    Still, it may be useful for you.  Note that you will receive the 
    original commit message as well as the filtered commit message.  You 
    need to use procmail to separate them.  It's easy to do, though.

    The README and source for the program is shown below.  Note that I am 
    running this program under my user id, you do not have to setup a procmail
    filter or run this program yourself (except to test your filter), you
    can simply create the appropriate file in /home/dillon/filters.

	/home/dillon/dfilter/README

    This is VERY ALPHA.  I am still working on some things such as properly
    emailing parse errors if your filter is broken.

    I wound up not using the perl script.  I found a cvs diff generator that
    I had written a year or two ago and incorporated that into the filter
    program.

    Please test the filter.  In particular note the variables you can do
    wildcard comparisons against, such as $INBODY and $DIFF.  You can also
    do wildcard compares against mail headers.  The filter is very powerful
    and will become even more powerful as I get feedback.

							-Matt



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4 16:39:34 2002
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Subject: Posix nonconformity:  clock_gettime and friends
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Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 19:39:26 -0400
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Hi:

Posix (ISO 9945-1) says in section 14.2.1 that one need only
include <time.h> to use clock_gettime and friends.  On FreeBSD
it seems like one must include <sys/time.h>.

Why (other than history) this seemingly gratuitous inconformity?
Can this be made conformant?

Thanks!


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Withrow, R.W. Withrow Associates, Swampscott MA, witr@rwwa.COM


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4 17:25:23 2002
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Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 03:23:58 +0300
From: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
To: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Wilko Bulte <wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl>,
	Brooks Davis <brooks@one-eyed-alien.net>,
	"Brandon D. Valentine" <bandix@geekpunk.net>
Subject: Re: HEADS UP!  COMMIT MESSAGE FILTERING AVAILABLE ON FREEFALL/HUB!
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On 2002-06-04 16:02 -0700, Matthew Dillon wrote:

>     The README and source for the program is shown below.  Note that
>     I am running this program under my user id, you do not have to
>     setup a procmail filter or run this program yourself (except to
>     test your filter), you can simply create the appropriate file in
>     /home/dillon/filters.
>
> 	/home/dillon/dfilter/README

No luck.

	freefall+keramida:~$ more /home/dillon/dfilter/README
	/home/dillon/dfilter/README: Permission denied

Giorgos.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4 17:27:55 2002
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To: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Wilko Bulte <wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl>,
	Brooks Davis <brooks@one-eyed-alien.net>,
	"Brandon D. Valentine" <bandix@geekpunk.net>
Subject: Re: HEADS UP!  COMMIT MESSAGE FILTERING AVAILABLE ON FREEFALL/HUB!
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:>
:> 	/home/dillon/dfilter/README
:
:No luck.
:
:	freefall+keramida:~$ more /home/dillon/dfilter/README
:	/home/dillon/dfilter/README: Permission denied
:
:Giorgos.

    Oops.  Fixed.

    ( I will eventually make a port out of dfilter, but I want to get
    it cleaned up, add a manual page, and fix reported bugs first )

					-Matt
					Matthew Dillon 
					<dillon@backplane.com>

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4 17:41:33 2002
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From: "Dan Langille" <dan@langille.org>
Organization: DVL Software Limited
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 20:41:28 -0400
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Subject: commit messages filtering / FreshSource
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I've just seen Matt Dillon's email on this topic 
(200206042302.g54N2LHR099341@apollo.backplane.com). I immediately thought 
about the overlap between two projects.  

FreshSource (http://www.FreshSource.org) will allow you to express 
interest in particular sections of the source tree.  Interest can be 
expressed on a file or directory level and placed on a watch list.  You 
will be emailed any commits which occur to items on your watch list (e.g. 
one email on a daily basis).  

Those familiar with FreshPorts will already be familiar with the service 
described above. FreshSource will behave similarly but will cover all 
commits, not just those in the ports tree.

-- 
Dan Langille


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4 17:51:17 2002
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	(envelope-from dillon)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:51:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Message-Id: <200206050051.g550p9x0000408@apollo.backplane.com>
To: "Dan Langille" <dan@langille.org>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: commit messages filtering / FreshSource
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    The concept looks very interesting.  I can see an immediate advantage
    in allowing cross-platform developers and other interested parties to
    keep track of changes made to areas of interest in various CVS trees
    (e.g.  FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, etc...).  You should have no problem
    incorporating commit messages from major repositories into your system.

    I'm afraid I don't have time to work on FreshPorts myself, I have a 
    dozen other things on the burner :-), but it sounds good!

					-Matt
					Matthew Dillon 
					<dillon@backplane.com>


:I've just seen Matt Dillon's email on this topic 
:(200206042302.g54N2LHR099341@apollo.backplane.com). I immediately thought 
:about the overlap between two projects.  
:
:FreshSource (http://www.FreshSource.org) will allow you to express 
:interest in particular sections of the source tree.  Interest can be 
:expressed on a file or directory level and placed on a watch list.  You 
:will be emailed any commits which occur to items on your watch list (e.g. 
:one email on a daily basis).  
:
:Those familiar with FreshPorts will already be familiar with the service 
:described above. FreshSource will behave similarly but will cover all 
:commits, not just those in the ports tree.
:
:-- 
:Dan Langille

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4 18: 0:20 2002
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From: Julian Elischer <julian@elischer.org>
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Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>,
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does my little test make sence?

will I get this in addition to the regular mail or instead of it?





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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4 18: 5:53 2002
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To: Julian Elischer <julian@elischer.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>,
	Wilko Bulte <wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl>,
	Brooks Davis <brooks@one-eyed-alien.net>,
	"Brandon D. Valentine" <bandix@geekpunk.net>
Subject: Re: HEADS UP!  COMMIT MESSAGE FILTERING AVAILABLE ON FREEFALL/HUB!
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:
:
:does my little test make sence?
:
:will I get this in addition to the regular mail or instead of it?

    Yah, it looks fine.  You had a syntax error in the filter.

    I'll get error reporting email (for filters which have syntax errors)
    working later tonight.

					-Matt
					Matthew Dillon 
					<dillon@backplane.com>

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jun  4 21: 4:24 2002
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	(envelope-from dillon)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 21:02:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Message-Id: <200206050402.g5542QXb002375@apollo.backplane.com>
To: Julian Elischer <julian@elischer.org>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
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    Ok, I've made some improvements to dfilter. 

    * I cleaned up the README file (/home/dillon/dfilter/README on freefall),
      getting rid of variables that are not yet supported.

    * If the program cannot parse your filter it should now send you an
      email with the error.  (You can also run dfilter manually,
      /home/dillon/bin/dfilter, to check your filter script).

    * A unified diff is now the default.

    * Minor security nits cleaned up.

    Again, you can create your own commit filter by creating the file
    /home/dillon/filters/<YOURUSERNAME> on freefall or hub.  Make sure it
    is mode 644.  There are examples in that directory as well as the
    README file.

    A commit filter gives you commit emails that include a cvs diff of
    the changes after the main commit message.  You can also modify headers
    such as the Subject: and To: lines and direct the email somewhere other
    then your freefall account, and you can filter based on wildcard 
    matching against any header or even against the entire mail body,
    allowing you to monitor sections of the codebase that you are interested
    in.

    I'm already having great fun with it!  Commit messages are a whole lot
    easier to review with the diff right there in the email.

						-Matt


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<head>
<title>CANNOLnetwork e-Builder105</title>
<meta http-equiv=3D=22Content-Type=22 content=3D=22text/html; charset=3Dbig5=22>
<link rel=3D=22stylesheet=22 href=3D=22file:///D=7C/%AA%D6%BA%F4/%AA%D6%BA%F4/%B9q%A4lDM20020327%20%A5%F8%B7%7Ee%A4%C6%AD%BA%B3%A1%A6%B1/style.css=22 type=3D=22text/css=22>
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  <tr>
    <td align=3D=22center=22 valign=3D=22top=22 height=3D=221448=22>=20      <table width=3D=22100=22 border=3D=220=22 cellspacing=3D=220=22 cellpadding=3D=220=22>
        <tr>
          <td><img src=3D=22http://ebuilder.cannol.com/newsletter/2002/0530/photo/top.jpg=22 width=3D=22540=22 height=3D=2283=22></td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
          <td><object classid=3D=22clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000=22 codebase=3D=22http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab=23version=3D5,0,0,0=22 width=3D=22540=22 height=3D=22326=22>
              <param name=3Dmovie value=3D=22http://ebuilder.cannol.com/newsletter/2002/0530/photo/middle.swf=22>
              <param name=3Dquality value=3Dhigh>
              <embed src=3D=22http://ebuilder.cannol.com/newsletter/2002/0530/photo/middle.swf=22 quality=3Dhigh pluginspage=3D=22http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=3DShockwaveFlash=22 type=3D=22application/x-shockwave-flash=22 width=3D=22540=22 height=3D=22326=22>
              </embed>=20            </object></td>
        </tr>
        <tr>
          <td>=20            <table width=3D=22100%=22 border=3D=220=22 cellspacing=3D=220=22 cellpadding=3D=220=22 height=3D=22100%=22>
              <tr>
                <td width=3D=2210=22><img src=3D=22http://ebuilder.cannol.com/newsletter/2002/0530/photo/alpha.gif=22 width=3D=2220=22 height=3D=2210=22></td>
                <td width=3D=22100%=22>
                  <table width=3D=22100%=22 border=3D=220=22 cellspacing=3D=220=22 cellpadding=3D=220=22 height=3D=22100%=22>
                    <tr>=20                      <td align=3D=22right=22>=20                        <p><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22><a href=3D=22http://ebuilder.cannol.com/newsletter/2002/0530/default2.htm=22><font color=3D=22=230000CC=22>=C0R=BAA</font></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</font></p>
                      </td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>=20                      <td><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22><b><font size=3D=223=22><br>
                        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</font></b><font size=3D=223=22>=AA=D6=BA=F4=AC=E3=B5o=AA=BA<font face=3D=22Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif=22><b>e-Builder105</b></font>=B0=D3=B0=C8=A7=40=B7=7E=A5=AD=A5x=A1A=B4=A3=A8=D1=BBs=B3y=B7=7E=A1B=B6R=BD=E6=B7=7E=A4=CE=B6T=A9=F6=B0=D3=A6=B3=AE=C4=A6=D3=A5=FE=A4=E8=A6=EC=AA=BA<font face=3D=22Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif=22>e</font>=A4=C6=BB=DD=A8D=A1C=A8=C3=A5i=A8=F3=A7U=A5=F8=B7=7E=A4F=B8=D1=A5=BB=A8=AD<font face=3D=22Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif=22>e</font>=A4=C6=AA=BA=A5=D8=BC=D0=BBP=A4=E8=AAk=A1A=B6=7D=B5o=B2=C5=A6X=A5=F8=B7=7E=AFS=A9=CA=AA=BA=AB=C8=BBs=A5=5C=AF=E0=A1C=20                        </font></font>=20                        <p><font size=3D=223=22 face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22>=AC=B0=A4F=B4=A3=A4=C9=BA=F4=B8=F4=A7=40=B7=7E=AA=BA=AE=C4=B2v=A1A=AFS=A7O=B5=B2=A6X<font face=3D=22Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif=22><b>Seednet</b></font>=AA=BA<font face=3D=22Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif=22>ADSL</font>=BA=F4=B8=F4=BCe=C0W=A7=DE=B3N=A1A=B1=C0=A5X=A5=FE=AD=B1<font face=3D=22Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif=22>e</font>=A4=C6=A4=C9=AF=C5<a href=3D=22http://seednet.cannol.com/seednet/=22><font color=3D=22=230000CC=22>=C0u=B4f=AD=B7=BC=C9=B1M=AE=D7</font></a>=A1A=A6P=AE=C9=B8=D1=A8M=A5=F8=B7=7E=B9=EF=A9=F3=B0=D3=B0=C8=A5=AD=A5x=A4=CE=C0u=BD=E8=C0W=BCe=AA=BA=C2=F9=AD=AB=BB=DD=A8D=A1C</font></p>
                      </td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>=20                      <td> <br>
                        <br>
                        <table width=3D=22100%=22 border=3D=220=22 cellspacing=3D=220=22 cellpadding=3D=220=22>
                          <tr>=20                            <td height=3D=2225=22 class=3D=22font16e=22 align=3D=22center=22 bgcolor=3D=22=230000CC=22><font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Arial Black=22>=20                              &nbsp;&nbsp;<font color=3D=22=23FFFFFF=22>:: &nbsp;e-Builder105</font></font><font color=3D=22=23FFFFFF=22><b>=20                              =B4=A3=A8=D1=AA=BA=A5=F8=B7=7E=BA=F4=AF=B8=A1A=A8=E3=A6=B3=A4U=A6C=A5D=ADn=A5=5C=AF=E0=AFS=A6=E2&nbsp; <font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22Arial Black=22>::</font></b></font></td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr>=20                            <td>=20                              <p class=3D=22font16e=22><b><span class=3D=22font20e=22><font color=3D=22=23FF0000=22><br>
                                =A1C</font></span>=BDu=A4W=B8=DF=B3=F8=BB=F9=A8t=B2=CE=A1G</b></p>
                            </td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr>=20                            <td>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<font color=3D=22=23333333=22>1.=20                              =B3=CC=B7s=BA=F4=B8=F4=A4=C6=B3=F8=BB=F9=A4u=A8=E3=A1A=B5=B2=A6X=B1z=AA=BA=BA=F4=AF=B8=A4=CEemail=A1A=B9=CF=A4=E5=A8=C3=ADZ=A1A=AB=C8=A4=E1=B2M<br>
                              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=B7=A1=A9=F6=C0=B4=A1C<br>
                              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2. =A4=A4=A1=FE=AD=5E=A4=E5=C2=F9=BBy=B3=F8=BB=F9=BC=D2=A6=A1=BF=EF=BE=DC=A1A=AD=B0=A7C=B7=7E=B0=C8=A4H=AD=FB=AD=5E=A4=E5=AA=F9=C2e=A1C<br>
                              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3. =B3=F8=BB=F9=A8=B3=B3t=A1A=C1Y=B5u=A6=A8=A5=E6=AE=C9=B6=A1=A1A=A8=C3=A6=DB=B0=CA=AB=D8=A5=DF=B8=DF=B3=F8=BB=F9=B0O=BF=FD=A1A=A5H=B3=C6=ACd=B8=DF=A1C</font></td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr>=20                            <td class=3D=22font16e=22><b><br>
                              <span class=3D=22font20e=22><font color=3D=22=23FF0000=22>=A1C</font></span>=A8M=B5=A6=A4=E4=B4=A9=A8t=B2=CE=A1G</b></td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr>=20                            <td>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<font color=3D=22=23333333=22>1.=20                              =BA=F4=AF=B8=ACy=B6q=B2=CE=ADp=A1C<br>
                              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2. =A5i=BA=CA=B4=FA=AB=C8=A4=E1=A6=DB=AD=FE=AD=D3=B7j=B4M=A4=DE=C0=BA=B6i=A8=D3=A5H=A4=CE=A9=D2=BF=E9=A4J=AA=BA=C3=F6=C1=E4=A6r=A1C<br>
                              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3. =B2=CE=ADp=B2=A3=AB=7E=A4=CE=A5=D8=BF=FD=C2s=C4=FD=A6=B8=BC=C6=A1A=A7=40=AC=B0=A5=F8=B7=7E=B2=A3=AB=7E=AC=E3=B5o=A9=CE=C2X=AEi=A4=A7=A8M=B5=A6=A8=CC=BE=DA=A1C</font></td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr>=20                            <td class=3D=22font16e=22><b><br>
                              <span class=3D=22font20e=22><font color=3D=22=23FF0000=22>=A1C</font></span>=B2=A3=AB=7E=BA=DE=B2z=A8t=B2=CE=A1G</b></td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr>=20                            <td>=20                              <p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<font color=3D=22=23333333=22>1.=20                                =BB=B4=C3P=A4W=AC=5B=B2=A3=AB=7E=A1A=A7=40=AC=B0=A4=BA=B3=A1=B2=A3=AB=7E=AA=BA=BA=DE=B2z=B3n=C5=E9=A1A=B8=60=AC=D9=A5t=B6R=B6=C7=B2=CE=BA=DE=B2z=B3n=C5=E9<br>
                                &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;=AA=BA=B6O=A5=CE=A1C<br>
                                &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2. =B3=E6=B6=B5=B2=A3=AB=7E=A5i=B8m=A9=F1=A6h=B1i=B9=CF=A4=F9=A1A=A8=C3=A4=E4=B4=A9=A6h=B4C=C5=E9=BCv=AD=B5=C0=C9=AB=F6=A1C</font></p>
                            </td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr>=20                            <td class=3D=22font16e=22><b><br>
                              <span class=3D=22font20e=22><font color=3D=22=23FF0000=22>=A1C</font></span>=A5=D8=BF=FD=A4U=B8=FC=BA=DE=B2z=A1G</b></td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr>=20                            <td>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<font color=3D=22=23333333=22>1.=20                              =AB=C8=A4=E1=A6=DB=BA=F4=AF=B8=A5=DF=A7Y=A4U=B8=FC=A5=D8=BF=FD=C0=C9=AE=D7=C6=5B=AC=DD=A1A=C1Y=B5u=B5=A5=AD=D4=B6l=B1H=AE=C9=B6=A1=A1C<br>
                              &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2. =A4j=B4T=AD=B0=A7C=B6=C7=B2=CE=A5=AD=AD=B1=A5=D8=BF=FD=A6L=A8=EA=B6O=A4=CE=AE=FC=A4=BA=A5=7E=B6l=B8=EA=B6O=A5=CE=A1C</font></td>
                          </tr>
                        </table>
                      </td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>=20                      <td><span class=3D=22font14e=22><br>
                        =B5L=BD=D7=B6Q=A4=BD=A5q=ACO=B8g=C0=E7=A4=BA=BEP=A8=C6=B7=7E=A1A=A9=DD=AEi=B0=EA=A4=BA=A6=E6=BEP=B3q=B8=F4=A1A=A9=CE=ACO=B8g=C0=E7=A5=7E=BEP=A8=C6=B7=7E=A1A=A9=DD=AEi=AE=FC=A5=7E=A5=AB=B3=F5=A1A<font size=3D=222=22 face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22><font size=3D=223=22><font face=3D=22Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif=22><b>e-Builder105</b></font></font></font>=B3=A3=AF=E0=AC=B0=B6Q=A4=BD=A5q=B3W=B9=BA=A5X=A6X=BEA=AA=BA=BA=F4=B8=F4=A4=C6=A4=E8=AE=D7=A1A=A8=C3=B4=A3=A8=D1=A7=B9=B5=BD=AA=BA=AB=D8=B8m=AAA=B0=C8=A1A=A7Q=A5=CE=BA=F4=BB=DA=BA=F4=B8=F4=AC=EC=A7=DE=A1A=A8=F3=A7U=A5=F8=B7=7E=B4=A3=B0=AA=A7=40=B7=7E=AE=C4=B2v=A1B=B4=EE=A4=D6=B8=EA=B7=BD=AE=F6=B6O=A1B=C2X=A4j=A6=E6=BEP=A1B=B4=A3=A4=C9=A6=A8=A5=E6=AE=C4=B2v=A9M=AB=7E=BD=E8=A1C</span></td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>=20                      <td> <br>
                        <br>
                        <table width=3D=22100%=22 border=3D=220=22 cellspacing=3D=220=22 cellpadding=3D=220=22>
                          <tr bgcolor=3D=22=230000CC=22 valign=3D=22middle=22 align=3D=22center=22>=20                            <td colspan=3D=222=22 height=3D=2223=22><span class=3D=22font16e=22><b><font color=3D=22=23FFFFFF=22 size=3D=223=22 face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22>-=20                              =AA=D6 =BA=F4 =B8=EA =B0T =C0=B0 =B1z =A5=B4 =B3y =A5=F8 =B7=7E =BA=F4 =AF=B8 =B7s =A5=40 =AC=F6 -</font></b></span></td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr align=3D=22center=22 valign=3D=22top=22>=20                            <td class=3D=22font14e=22><font face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22 size=3D=222=22><b><br>
                              B2B =A5=F8=B7=7E=BA=F4=AF=B8 </b>=A5N=AA=ED=A9=CA=AB=C8=A4=E1=A1G</font></td>
                            <td class=3D=22font14e=22><font face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22 size=3D=222=22><b><br>
                              B2C =BA=F4=B8=F4=C1=CA=AA=AB=BA=F4=AF=B8 </b>=A5N=AA=ED=A9=CA=AB=C8=A4=E1=A1G</font></td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr align=3D=22center=22 valign=3D=22top=22>=20                            <td class=3D=22font14e=22><font face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22 size=3D=222=22><br>
                              =B6=AE=B8=A6=B4=B5=A5=F8=B7=7E=A6=B3=AD=AD=A4=BD=A5q <br>
                              <a href=3D=22http://www.artam.com.tw=22><font color=3D=22=230000CC=22>http://www.artam.com.tw</font></a></font></td>
                            <td class=3D=22font14e=22> <font face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22 size=3D=222=22><br>
                              =A7=DE=C1p=B9q=A4l=A6=B3=AD=AD=A4=BD=A5q <br>
                              <a href=3D=22http://www.my3c.net=22><font color=3D=22=230000CC=22>http://www.my3c.net</font></a></font></td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr align=3D=22center=22 valign=3D=22top=22>=20                            <td class=3D=22font14e=22><font face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22 size=3D=222=22><br>
                              =A8q=AAi=B9q=A4l(=AA=D1)=A4=BD=A5q <br>
                              <a href=3D=22http://www.superrite.com=22><font color=3D=22=230000CC=22>http://www.superrite.com</font></a></font></td>
                            <td class=3D=22font14e=22><font face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22 size=3D=222=22><br>
                              =C2=60=BCwMD=B1M=BD=E6<br>
                              <a href=3D=22http://md-walkman.cannol.com=22><font color=3D=22=230000CC=22>http://md-walkman.cannol.com</font></a></font></td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr align=3D=22center=22 valign=3D=22top=22>=20                            <td class=3D=22font14e=22><font face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22 size=3D=222=22><br>
                              =ADs=ADi=B6T=A9=F6=A6=B3=AD=AD=A4=BD=A5q<br>
                              <a href=3D=22http://chenhung.cannol.com=22><font color=3D=22=230000CC=22>http://chenhung.cannol.com</font></a></font></td>
                            <td class=3D=22font14e=22><font face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22 size=3D=222=22></font></td>
                          </tr>
                        </table>
                      </td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>=20                      <td align=3D=22center=22 valign=3D=22middle=22><br>
                        <table width=3D=22100%=22 border=3D=220=22 cellspacing=3D=220=22 cellpadding=3D=220=22>
                          <tr bgcolor=3D=22=230000CC=22 valign=3D=22middle=22 align=3D=22center=22>=20                            <td colspan=3D=222=22 class=3D=22font16e=22 height=3D=2223=22><b><font color=3D=22=23FFFFFF=22 size=3D=223=22 face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22>-=20                              =C5w =AA=EF =B8=D5 =A5=CE =A5=DC =BDd =BA=F4 =AF=B8 -</font></b></td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr valign=3D=22top=22 align=3D=22center=22>=20                            <td><font face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22 size=3D=222=22><b><br>
                              </b><span class=3D=22font14e=22><b>B2B =A5=F8=B7=7E=B1M=C4=DD=BA=F4</b></span><b>=AF=B8&nbsp;=20                              </b><span class=3D=22font14e=22> =A5=DC=BDd=BA=F4=AF=B8=A1G</span></font></td>
                            <td><font face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22 size=3D=222=22><br>
                              <span class=3D=22font14e=22><b>B2C =BA=F4=B8=F4=C1=CA=AA=AB=BA=F4=B0=D3=A9=B1 </b>=A5=DC=BDd=BA=F4=AF=B8=A1G</span></font></td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr valign=3D=22top=22 align=3D=22center=22>=20                            <td><font face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22 size=3D=222=22><br>
                              =A5i=A6=DC=BA=F4=AF=B8=AB=E1=BA=DD=BA=DE=B2z=A8t=B2=CE=B8=D5=A5=CE<a href=3D=22http://eb105tce.cannol.com=22><br>
                              <font color=3D=22=230000CC=22>http://eb105tce.cannol.com</font></a></font></td>
                            <td><font face=3D=22=B7s=B2=D3=A9=FA=C5=E9=22 size=3D=222=22><br>
                              =A5i=A6=DC=BA=F4=AF=B8=AB=E1=BA=DD=BA=DE=B2z=A8t=B2=CE=B8=D5=A5=CE<a href=3D=22http://funnygo.cannol.com=22><br>
                              <font color=3D=22=230000CC=22>http://funnygo.cannol.com</font></a></font></td>
                          </tr>
                        </table>
                        <span class=3D=22font13e=22><br>
                        <font size=3D=222=22>=C5w=AA=EF=A8=D3=B9q=AC=A2=B8=DF &nbsp;&nbsp;=AA=D6=BA=F4=B8=EA=B0T &nbsp;&nbsp;=BF=E0 =A4=E5=20                        =B2W TEL=A1G(03)336-2208 or <a href=3D=22mailto:service=40cannol.com=22><font color=3D=22=230000CC=22>mail:service=40cannol.com</font></a></font></span></td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>=20                      <td align=3D=22center=22 valign=3D=22middle=22><span class=3D=22font12=22><br>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Jun  5 14:49: 1 2002
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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 00:45:12 +0300
From: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@freebsd.org>
To: dougb@freebsd.org
Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Removing perl usage from mergemaster
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Hello dougb & all,

Here's a patch that removes all trails of Perl usage from mergemaster.
The parts that I want your careful scrutiny directed at are the new
stat_mode() shell function, and the parts that I have touched lines
removing Perl code.  I have done some testing to the resulting
mergemaster script, mostly by comparing the results of stat_mode() and
the old Perl code (having them both run, and print their output,
before mergemaster calls "exit 1").  If you find that you like the
changes, then the recent mergemaster problems on CURRENT machines that
have no perl port installed will go away ;)

I have tried to keep the code of stat_mode() clean, despite the fact
that it could possibly be written also as:

    #
    # Print in STDOUT the octal mode of a file and/or directory.
    #
    stat_mode () {
            echo $(( ~$(echo "obase=10; ibase=8; ${2}" | bc ) &
                     $( echo "obase=10;ibase=8;07777" | bc ) &
                     $( echo "obase=10; ibase=2; " \
                         $( ls -ld "${1}" | \
                            cut -c2-10 | \
                            sed -e '/^..[sS]/ s/^.*$/&+100000000000/' \
                                -e '/^.....[sS]/ s/^.*$/&+10000000000/' \
                                -e '/^........[tT]/ s/^.*$/&+1000000000/' | \
                            sed -e 's/[st]/x/g' -e 's/ST/-/g' | \
                            sed -e 's/[rwx]/1/g' | \
                            sed -e 's/[^1+]/0/g' ) \
                         | bc )
                  )) | awk '{printf "%04o\n", $0}'
    }   

The ls output parsing was inspired by an old post by Alfred Perlstein,
and I have only added the proper sed-lines to convert it to a valid
binary number.  The rest, shell evaluations, substitutions and all is
something you can safely blame me for.  Until now, I have verified
that this produces the same output, but it's admittedly harder to
decipher than the one I have included in the diff below.  It is still
here, for us to use, if you all feel that it's better to avoid the use
of variables in stat_mode().  Whatever you all feel better with...

I think Doug's opinion as the maintainer of mergemaster is of the
utmost importance here.  Anyone else with a better idea for removing
the dependency of mergemaster on Perl, is welcome to step up and offer
us his assistance though :)

Giorgos.



--- patch begins ---
Index: mergemaster.sh
===================================================================
RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/usr.sbin/mergemaster/mergemaster.sh,v
retrieving revision 1.31
diff -u -r1.31 mergemaster.sh
--- mergemaster.sh	28 May 2002 07:25:44 -0000	1.31
+++ mergemaster.sh	5 Jun 2002 21:25:09 -0000
@@ -214,6 +214,28 @@
   esac
 }
 
+stat_mode () {
+	pathname="$1"
+	confirmed_umask="$2"
+
+	decimal_umask=$( echo "obase=10; ibase=8; ${confirmed_umask}" | bc )
+	binary_mode=$( ls -ld "${pathname}" | \
+		cut -c2-10 | \
+		sed -e '/^..[sS]/ s/^.*$/&+100000000000/' \
+		    -e '/^.....[sS]/ s/^.*$/&+10000000000/' \
+		    -e '/^........[tT]/ s/^.*$/&+1000000000/' | \
+		sed -e 's/[st]/x/g' -e 's/ST/-/g' | \
+		sed -e 's/[rwx]/1/g' | \
+		sed -e 's/[^1+]/0/g' )
+	decimal_mode=$( echo "obase=10; ibase=2; ${binary_mode}" | bc )
+	mode_mask=$( echo "obase=10;ibase=8;07777" | bc )
+	masked_mode=$(( ${mode_mask} & ${decimal_mode} ))
+	umasked_mode=$(( ${masked_mode} & ~${decimal_umask} ))
+	octal_mode=$( echo ${umasked_mode} | awk '{printf "%04o\n", $0}' )
+	unset decimal_umask binary_mode decimal_mode mode_mask masked_mode umasked_mode
+	echo "${octal_mode}"
+}
+
 # Set the default path for the temporary root environment
 #
 TEMPROOT='/var/tmp/temproot'
@@ -641,13 +663,11 @@
   esac
 
   if [ -n "${DESTDIR}${INSTALL_DIR}" -a ! -d "${DESTDIR}${INSTALL_DIR}" ]; then
-    DIR_MODE=`perl -e 'printf "%04o\n", (((stat("$ARGV[0]"))[2] & 07777) &~ \
-      oct("$ARGV[1]"))' "${TEMPROOT}/${INSTALL_DIR}" "${CONFIRMED_UMASK}"`
+    DIR_MODE=`stat_mode "${TEMPROOT}/${INSTALL_DIR}" "${CONFIRMED_UMASK}"`
     install -d -o root -g wheel -m "${DIR_MODE}" "${DESTDIR}${INSTALL_DIR}"
   fi
 
-  FILE_MODE=`perl -e 'printf "%04o\n", (((stat("$ARGV[0]"))[2] & 07777) &~ \
-      oct("$ARGV[1]"))' "${1}" "${CONFIRMED_UMASK}"`
+  FILE_MODE=`stat_mode "${1}" "${CONFIRMED_UMASK}"`
 
   if [ ! -x "${1}" ]; then
     case "${1#.}" in
--- patch ends ---

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Jun  5 17:45:57 2002
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Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 17:41:33 -0700
From: Lars Eggert <larse@ISI.EDU>
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Subject: get/setuid used instead of get/seteuid?
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Hi,

there's a large number of system programs that use get/setuid() to limit 
what a non-root user can do (route, killall, ping, etc.)

This may be a really dumb question, but shouldn't they be using 
get/seteuid() instead, to base their decision on the effective uid? 
Otherwise setting the setuid flag on the binary has no effect.

For example, setting the setuid flag on ping (so non-root users can use 
flood pings - I am aware of the security implications, this is for a 
prototype system that will never go live) does not work - ping checks 
the real uid instead.

Or is this deliberate? If so, there's other system programs (e.g. 
reboot) that check the euid instead. (Or is the inconsistency deliberate?)

Can someone shed some light on this?

Thanks,
Lars
-- 
Lars Eggert <larse@isi.edu>           USC Information Sciences Institute

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Jun  5 19:15: 8 2002
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On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Lars Eggert wrote:

> there's a large number of system programs that use get/setuid() to limit
> what a non-root user can do (route, killall, ping, etc.) 
> 
> This may be a really dumb question, but shouldn't they be using
> get/seteuid() instead, to base their decision on the effective uid? 
> Otherwise setting the setuid flag on the binary has no effect. 

Setting the setuid bit on the binary results in the real uid being
preserved, but the file's owner being adopted as the effective uid.  When
invoking one of the various set*uid()-related calls, the set of available
uids to pick from is based on the real, saved, and effective uid.
Programs that run with root privilege by virtue of the setuid bit on their
binary will frequently call setuid(getuid()) to set all three uids to the
real uid, reducing the privileges that they have access to (i.e.,
restoring aspects of the pre-exec() security environment).  For example,
ping will bind a raw socket which permits it to send ICMP, and monitor
incoming ICMP, and then restore the original uid.  This means that it will
no longer be able to bind new raw sockets.  The kernel will provide some
additional protections for the process since the process may have cached
privileged data, and we don't want other processes gaining access to that,
or any other privileges (such as access to the raw socket), but the actual
effective uid is reset.

> For example, setting the setuid flag on ping (so non-root users can use
> flood pings - I am aware of the security implications, this is for a
> prototype system that will never go live) does not work - ping checks
> the real uid instead. 

The setuid bit is set on the ping command by default so that non-root
users can generate and monitor ICMP; you describe enabling that bit, but
it's probably already enabled on your system if it's a default install.
Removing the setuid bit will prevent non-root users from being able to use
the command properly, as they won't have access to the raw socket that is
needed for ping to operate properly in most of its operating modes. 
Setting the setuid bit does not permit non-root users to flood ping, since
the getuid() call returns the real uid, which is not modified by the
setuid bit on the binary.  This is intentional.  In order to permit
non-root users to flood ping, you must remove the check from the binary. 

FWIW, I think that the flood ping check is a bit bogus :-).  Users can
generate floods of non-ICMP packets trivially using the normal application
APIs.  The current behavior is probably largely to prevent mostly clueless
users from doing stupid things.

> Or is this deliberate? If so, there's other system programs (e.g. 
> reboot) that check the euid instead. (Or is the inconsistency
> deliberate?) 

It depends a lot on the context.  Generally, applications should check the
uid that is appropriate for what they want to do, and that can depend a
lot on how the applicaton behaves.  Applications may check the effective
uid to *see* if they were run setuid, for example, and behave differently
if they were (i.e., at start of execution, getuid() != geteuid() &&
geteuid() == 0).  For example, they may generate an error if they believe
they don't have the privilege they need to run properly.  There are some
decent arguments that that behavior is a bit flawed if you start to employ
different privilege models, needless to say. 

> Can someone shed some light on this? 

Although I wouldn't preclude bugs existing in the handling of uid's and
gid's across various applications, what you are describing is intentional.

Robert N M Watson             FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects
robert@fledge.watson.org      Network Associates Laboratories



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Jun  5 21:57: 9 2002
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Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 23:56:57 -0500
From: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <stephen@math.missouri.edu>
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Subject: allocating memory
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I have access to a rather large computer (3GB of RAM) and I would like
to write a program to access most of this memory.  I find that I am
unable to malloc more than about 0.5 GB of memory, even if I do it in
small increments.  Now I am trying mmap, and this lets me get to about
2.5 GB of memory (again I ask for the memory in small increments).  What
is it that causes these limitations?

Here is the kind of program I used to find these limits:

#include <stdlib.h>
#include <unistd.h>
#include <stdio.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/mman.h>

#define size 100000000
#define nr 100

main() {
  char *a[nr];
  unsigned int i, j;

  for (j=0;j<nr;j++) {
    fprintf(stderr,"Mallocing a[%d] with %d bytes\n",j,size);
    a[j] =
mmap(NULL,size,PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE,MAP_ANON|MAP_NOCORE,-1,0);
    fprintf(stderr,"%d\n",(int)(a[j]));
    if (a[j]==MAP_FAILED) {
      perror("malloc error");
      exit(EXIT_FAILURE);
    }
    fprintf(stderr,"Filling a[%d]\n",j);
    for(i=0;i<size;i++) a[j][i] = i;
    fprintf(stderr,"Done\n");
  }

  while(1){} /* so the program doesn't stop and stays at the top of top
*/
}

-- 
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
stephen@math.missouri.edu
http://www.math.missouri.edu/~stephen

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Jun  5 23:16:31 2002
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From: Aggelos Economopoulos <aoiko@cc.ece.ntua.gr>
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To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Cannot access disk
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:15:45 +0300
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After adding a 40G ide disk(ad3) on my system, I 'ld like to devote some
extra space to FreeBSD (there is already a linux installation on the 40G
disk). However, after booting my -stable installation on the first
disk(ad0), I get the error message "excessive recursion in search for
slices" by the kernel on any attempt to access ad3 (mount a partition,
fdisk -s /dev/ad3, or even a read() on ad3).

Initially, I thought I had hit a bug in sys/kern/subr_diskmbr.c. Only, us=
ing
a userspace partition viewer (which understands the partition setup on ad=
3
when run under linux) I get simillar errors (ie infinite loop in the
partition handling code). (it _seems_ that at somepoint in following the=20
extended partition tables chain,  a read() returns sector 0 (the mbr of=20
ad3), but don't quote me on this)

I therefore conclude that this is not a problem in the partition handling
code and given my lack of familiarity with the kernel I cannot even guess
at the cause. If  it's any use, ->d_secperunit in the in-kernel
disklabel is the same as the number of sectors reported by the linux
kernel.

Any ideas are _very_ welcome.

PS: I do read -hackers, but please cc: me in any reply.

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6  2:13:21 2002
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
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To: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <stephen@math.missouri.edu>
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Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
> I have access to a rather large computer (3GB of RAM) and I would like
> to write a program to access most of this memory.  I find that I am
> unable to malloc more than about 0.5 GB of memory, even if I do it in
> small increments.  Now I am trying mmap, and this lets me get to about
> 2.5 GB of memory (again I ask for the memory in small increments).  What
> is it that causes these limitations?

You never allocate physical memory, you only ever allocate virtual
memory.

The amount of memory is limited by your address space.  For most
machines, this is limited by the number of pins on the CPU to 32
bits.

Since the kernel must be able to access both the process memory,
and the kernel memory, at the same time, this means that the virtual
address space is split between kernel memory and user memory (or the
kernel would not be able to copy data between user buffers and those
in the kernel).

So the actual amount of virtual memory usable by a user program is:

	4G - KVA space

By default, in 4.x, the KVA space was 1G, which meant that use space
programs were limited to 3G in size.

It turns out that 1G is not enough KVA space for a 4G machine, since
there is a lot of overhead associated with the VM system being able
to manage 1M pages of memory.  Some of that is in the overallocation
of swap space (for any guve UVA space [process], you are limited to
UVA = physical mappings + swap mappings).  So in order to make sure
that maxed-out (4G) machines even boot, the KVA space has to be
increased.  3G is about the top of what you can have without this.

Why doesn't malloc work to get all the memory it can?  I don't know;
you would have to petition PHK for an answer as to why, since he is
the author of the malloc you are using.  If it's not "pilot error",
then it's probably something broken that he'll have to fix (no user
serviceable parts).

As for topping out at ~2.5G: yes: that's what's expected.  If you
really need more memory than that, you will need to drop ~US$10K
on a 64 bit Itanium machine, and petition Peter Wemm for the correct
dead chicken to wave over the thing.

In general, I'd suggest that, unless it's for non-swappable kernel
structures, you should just trust the system to Deal With The Memory
and Do The Right Thing Automatically: only think in terms of the
virtual memory, and ignore the physical.

If you need a larger amount of memory in one program simultaneously,
you should partition your problem so you can make do with less memory
(e.g. if you are writing a linker-to-end-all-linkers, then consider
not mapping all the object files simultaneously, and using an LRU and
writing your own "as needed" mapping layer, instead, so you don't need
it all simultaneously, and addresses can overlap).

If you can't do that, and *must* have a larger amount of address space
in your programs... welcome to the Itanium owners club of America.  We
meet once a month to race our machines in the big parking lot on Sundays;
bring lots of water, a sack lunch, and orange cones, if you have them.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6  3:27: 9 2002
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From: Miguel Mendez <flynn@energyhq.homeip.net>
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
Cc: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <stephen@math.missouri.edu>,
	freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 02:12:32AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:

> Why doesn't malloc work to get all the memory it can?  I don't know;
> you would have to petition PHK for an answer as to why, since he is

I honestly doubt it's a problem in phkmalloc :)

> As for topping out at ~2.5G: yes: that's what's expected.  If you
> really need more memory than that, you will need to drop ~US$10K
> on a 64 bit Itanium machine, and petition Peter Wemm for the correct
> dead chicken to wave over the thing.

Just out of curiosity, why to you advocate the Itanium so much? It's, by
far, the worst 64bit arch I've ever seen. Maybe in 3 years or so it will
be used to serious work, until then, you're much better off with a POWER4=
=20
or Sparc box, although newer Sun hardware seems to be pretty
disappointing in the engineering department, so go IBM :)

Or he could go the PAE way, and get an x86 box with 8 or 16GB of memory.
However, I don't know how good the support for that in FreeBSD is.

Cheers,
--=20
        Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net
        GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt
        EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk
        FreeBSD - The power to serve!

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6  4: 4:36 2002
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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 04:09:56 -0700
From: Mike Makonnen <makonnen@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: rc.d boot scripts are ready
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X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG

[ forgive this breach of net-ettiquette, but this should probably be
given a wider audience]

On Thu, 06 Jun 2002 05:01:18 -0600
Mike Makonnen <makonnen@pacbell.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> Ok folks, 
> 
> I have our current rc.* scripts ported to the NetBSD framework.
> Preliminary testing says it's good to go, so consider this an official
> call for testers. Gordon has indicated he is ready to start committing
> it soon. I ask that people start testing it out before he does so.
That> will enable me to get any remaining bugs fixed before it hits the
tree. > 
> Once you download and follow the directions at:
> http://home.pacbell.net/makonnen/rcng.html
> you can enable it by including rc_ng="YES" in your /etc/rc.conf. 
> 
> If you experience any breakage please let me know so I can fix it.
> I'd appreciate it if people with the appropriate setups especially
test> the following:
> ATM
> ipfilter
> amd
> 
> Any comments, constructive criticism  welcome.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mike Makonnen
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6  5: 6:18 2002
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Miguel Mendez wrote:
> > As for topping out at ~2.5G: yes: that's what's expected.  If you
> > really need more memory than that, you will need to drop ~US$10K
> > on a 64 bit Itanium machine, and petition Peter Wemm for the correct
> > dead chicken to wave over the thing.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, why to you advocate the Itanium so much?

Didn't think I was... telling someone that they would have to drop
~US$10K is hardly advocacy in my book.


> It's, by far, the worst 64bit arch I've ever seen. Maybe in 3 years
> or so it will be used to serious work, until then, you're much better
> off with a POWER4 or Sparc box, although newer Sun hardware seems to
> be pretty disappointing in the engineering department, so go IBM :)

FreeBSD doesn't run on these boxes yet; there's a SPARC 64 bit port
in progress, as well as a PPC port in progress (32 bit only, AFAIK).

The SPARC 64 that's probably not going to see a lot of use until the
number of 64 bit SPARC machines available second-hand comes anywhere
close to 10% of the 32 bit SPARC machines that can be had out there;
in terms of price/performance, they are still way too expensive.  I
guess if I didn't limit your remarks to FreeBSD, and included Solaris,
AIX, or NetBSD as options, the field would be larger.

You didn't mention the Alpha, but Alpha is end of life these days,
now that HP owns what Intel didn't already own.  The FreeBSD Alpha
port (which *is* complete) unfortunately can't handle more than 2G
of RAM (apparently, this has to do with the I/O architecture issues
that have yet to be resolved completely, by way of code changes
that *should* happen, but haven't, because the i386 doesn't need
them to happen).


> Or he could go the PAE way, and get an x86 box with 8 or 16GB of memory.
> However, I don't know how good the support for that in FreeBSD is.

It's not there; there would have been a big announcement, I think,
like "Hyperthreading" (really, SMT).  Peter Wemm was reported by
Alfred Perlstein to have been working on it.  If Peter is on it, it
will happen eventually, but I don't think it will be useful unless
your problem is swap-bound systems, not CPU or I/O bound systems;
IMO, most systems end up I/O bound because of system clock halving...
er... CPU clock doubling... er... whatever.  Peter is with Yahoo,
and Yahoo runs a lot of large user programs simultaneously on a given
machine, so they actually have a real use for this.


[ ...Skip to the end if you love PAE, and don't want to
     read anyone "insulting" it... ]

Here's my unvarnished opinion of PAE: it sucks to the point of
near non-utility.

Here's why:

The problem with PAE is that, while it extends the amount of
physical RAM you can access, it doesn't extend the amount of
physical RAM you can access *simultaneously*.  It also doesn't
increase your kernel or user virtual address space: the total
of the two still can't exceed 4G, even when using PAE.

It's basically the 32 bit version of the 16 bit bank selection
in the Commodore64, or if you want to dig deeper, the bank
selection that most of us eventually ran on our 8 bit SWTP
6800's or IMSAI 8080's, back in the mid 1970's, so we could
cram more than 256b of RAM into our little S-100 bus boxes;
those of us with infinitely deep wallets sometimes had up to
an unbelievable 4K in the buggers...

What do you get out of PAE?  Faster, very low granularity swap,
that eventually becomes much more expensive to LRU out to real
swap, once it's all filled up (guaranteed: your least recently
used data is not in the bank that's currently selected in!).

In other words, if you need X G of RAM, then 4 times that much
is not going to save you, and you need to reconsider your code.
Unless, of course, you don't expect you business or application or
data set to grow, over time, and your system load remains constant.

You can't DMA into the thing.  If you have a 64 bit PCI, and your
motherboard is designed just right, you might be able to swing it;
I've actually seen an Intel Server Products Division MB that would
let you DMA into banked-out memory (but it still flushed your L2
and L1 at the memory location mod 4G, meaning you should limit
yourself to Amiga-like "FastRAM", otherwise known as "bounce
buffers").  Mostly, you have to pretend you are a DEC Alpha,
and limit DMA buffers to the low 4G.  That's mbufs, disk DMAs,
everything.

Cool.  Start at 1G.  Add 1G.  Get more mbufs and buffer cache.
Add 1G.  Get more mbufs and buffer cache.   Add 1G.  Get more
mbufs and buffer cache.  Add 1G.  Lose 2G worth of mbufs and
buffer cache.

There's also the VM problem.  In a 4G system, you are likely
to be able to only grab a random chunk of 2G -- half the RAM
physically in the machine -- from the available "extra" memory.
What this boils down to is that the physical RAM ends up getting
used up for housekeeping of the physical RAM.  You can push this
up closer to 3G; but to do that, you have to make modifications
to pmap.c and machdep.c.

Adding PAE into the mix means you are probably going to spend,
at a minimum, 1/4 of the physical RAM on housekeeping.  For a
16G machine, that's 4G.  And guess what?  It can't all be in
core (bank selected in) at the same time, or you end up having
no KVA space left to bank-select in the RAM that it's the
housekeeping for.  So the only real approach is to got to a
MIPS-like software lookaside (hierarchical) so that you can
take each bank, and take the 1/4 out of the bank itself.  This
works, but it's incredibly expensive, overall.

Basically ...the memory is only good for programs themselves,
not for DMA, mmap'ed files, more mbufs... anything really useful.

Now add in that most new, fast memory is actually limited to
2G in a system because of the memory modules being used (e.g.
the new 450MHz memory busses can't handle more than 2G).

[ ...You can stop skipping now... ]

FreeBSD uses the standard recursive mapping, and it uses soft
switching, which means that it has a small TSS profile (Intel
processors are limited to 1024 of these, which is why Linux had
to move to a similar model: before that, they were intrinsically
limited to 1024 processes, as is any OS that uses one per process,
per the Intel programming manual recommendations -- yet another
glaring piece of evidence that software engineers are rarely
consulted before hardware is designed).

The easiest method of dealing with this would be to grab a
group of these (FreeBSD uses only a few of them, and tends to
use only one for all processes on the system, unless VM86 gets
involved), and then map them up to the banks, so that when
you do switching to a process, you can lazy-bind the PAE bank
selection at the same time.  Probably you would have to add in
scheduler mojo (like Linux) so that given a list of equal
priority processes, you prefer the ones that are in the same
bank as the current process.

Probably, you will want to end up double-caching things like
code pages from Apache, or making sure that shared code pages
end up outside the bank selection region, but if you are adding
significant attribution to the VM system to handle PAE in the
first place, then it's negligible additional overhead.

[ ...Skip again, if you don't want a negative bottom line... ]

The bottom line is that, in order to have a *usable* amount of
physical RAM over 4G, you pretty much have to go to a 64 bit
platform, and if you are a user, now that Alpha is dead and no
one looks to be making quick progress on the Alpha 2G barrier,
that pretty much means "Itanium".

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6  5:38:29 2002
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To: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <stephen@math.missouri.edu>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: allocating memory
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Date: 06 Jun 2002 14:38:15 +0200
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Stephen Montgomery-Smith <stephen@math.missouri.edu> writes:
> I have access to a rather large computer (3GB of RAM) and I would like
> to write a program to access most of this memory.  I find that I am
> unable to malloc more than about 0.5 GB of memory, even if I do it in
> small increments.  Now I am trying mmap, and this lets me get to about
> 2.5 GB of memory (again I ask for the memory in small increments).  What
> is it that causes these limitations?

man limits, and see MAX{DSIZ,SSIZ} in NOTES.

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6  6:20:46 2002
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From: "Eugene L. Vorokov " <vel@bugz.infotecs.ru>
To: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <stephen@math.missouri.edu>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: allocating memory
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On Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 11:56:57PM -0500, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
> I have access to a rather large computer (3GB of RAM) and I would like
> to write a program to access most of this memory.  I find that I am
> unable to malloc more than about 0.5 GB of memory, even if I do it in
> small increments.  Now I am trying mmap, and this lets me get to about
> 2.5 GB of memory (again I ask for the memory in small increments).  What
> is it that causes these limitations?

The 0.5G memory limit is most probably caused my your "datasize" limit,
which you can see by typing "limits" on the shell. malloc() increases
process heap size using sbrk() syscall, and datasize limit holds maximum
heap size that can be set for a process that way. mmap() with MAP_ANON
doesn't use sbrk() and allocates memory from global heap, so this way
you can get as much memory as possble, AFAIK. However, don't forget that
some memory is used by or reserved for the kernel.

Regards,
Eugene


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6  6:25:11 2002
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To: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
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On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 05:04:56AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:

Hi,

> The SPARC 64 that's probably not going to see a lot of use until the
> number of 64 bit SPARC machines available second-hand comes anywhere
> close to 10% of the 32 bit SPARC machines that can be had out there;
> in terms of price/performance, they are still way too expensive.  I


How come? A Sun Blade 100 is about $1,000. That's not what I call
expensive. It's not an E4500, but not a bad box once you load it with a
bit more RAM and a SCSI controller. You can get Ultra 10 boxen pretty
cheap these days too.

> guess if I didn't limit your remarks to FreeBSD, and included Solaris,
> AIX, or NetBSD as options, the field would be larger.

Yes, I'd include those OS, as FreeBSD is not, and won't be, production
ready for a while for those platforms.

> You didn't mention the Alpha, but Alpha is end of life these days,
> now that HP owns what Intel didn't already own.  The FreeBSD Alpha

I didn't even consider the Alpha as a viable option. Compaq^WHP took
care of killing it, and, it for any reason it survives, Fiorina will
take care of it. It's sad, the Alpha is a very nice arch to work with.
But in these days, I don't consider it anything more useful than my old
Amiga 1200, nice box, but pretty much useless now.

> port (which *is* complete) unfortunately can't handle more than 2G
> of RAM (apparently, this has to do with the I/O architecture issues
> that have yet to be resolved completely, by way of code changes
> that *should* happen, but haven't, because the i386 doesn't need
> them to happen).

It seems to me most developers have lost interest in it and moved
already towards more exciting targets, like the sparc port.

> It's not there; there would have been a big announcement, I think,
> like "Hyperthreading" (really, SMT).  Peter Wemm was reported by
> Alfred Perlstein to have been working on it.  If Peter is on it, it

Well, now *that* would be interesting to see, as a hacker exercise.

> [ ...Skip to the end if you love PAE, and don't want to
>      read anyone "insulting" it... ]

Not really, I don't like any more than the other gazillion kludges the
PC arch is built upon :)

> The problem with PAE is that, while it extends the amount of
> physical RAM you can access, it doesn't extend the amount of
> physical RAM you can access *simultaneously*.  It also doesn't
> increase your kernel or user virtual address space: the total
> of the two still can't exceed 4G, even when using PAE.

Agreed, more on that below.

> It's basically the 32 bit version of the 16 bit bank selection
> in the Commodore64, or if you want to dig deeper, the bank

Well, you don't need to go that far in history, just boot your computer
and enjoy a 500Mhz cpu with 64KB segments :)

> What do you get out of PAE?  Faster, very low granularity swap,
> that eventually becomes much more expensive to LRU out to real
> swap, once it's all filled up (guaranteed: your least recently
> used data is not in the bank that's currently selected in!).

Okay, this is where I wanted to get. First you need to do some hacking
because pointers for Intel processors are 32 bits in size, so a possible
solution could be:

Assume a (software based) 64bit address space, by means of using long
long for pointers. Of course you can only access a 4GB chunk at a time,
but programs need not to know about that. Do they want to malloc or mmap
8GB? You let them. If the program is doing random access all the time,
it will spend a lot of time in kernel, as not only pages, but segments
have to be taken in account when accessing a memory location. It would
work pretty well for programs doing consecutive accesses to their
dataset (or within the 4GB boundary). Doing some MMU magic you can have
a transparent system to allow programs use more than 4GB.

Maybe if/when that hardware becomes affordable I'll try myself such a hack =
:)

> In other words, if you need X G of RAM, then 4 times that much
> is not going to save you, and you need to reconsider your code.

Databases for one love to have huge amounts of memory. It's not uncommon
to have e.g. informix processes using 16GB of ram on Sun big iron.

> You can't DMA into the thing.  If you have a 64 bit PCI, and your

IMHO not an issue.

> What this boils down to is that the physical RAM ends up getting
> used up for housekeeping of the physical RAM.  You can push this
> up closer to 3G; but to do that, you have to make modifications
> to pmap.c and machdep.c.

Such an enhancement needs a lot of modifications to the VM subsystem.

> housekeeping for.  So the only real approach is to got to a
> MIPS-like software lookaside (hierarchical) so that you can
> take each bank, and take the 1/4 out of the bank itself.  This
> works, but it's incredibly expensive, overall.

Hmm, yes. So what does Windows 2000 Datacenter do wrt that problem?
Waste memory like there's no tomorrow?

> Basically ...the memory is only good for programs themselves,
> not for DMA, mmap'ed files, more mbufs... anything really useful.

Of course, it's the applications demanding memory we are talking about.
For the OS itself, it's just a half assed solution, no practical at all.

> Now add in that most new, fast memory is actually limited to
> 2G in a system because of the memory modules being used (e.g.
> the new 450MHz memory busses can't handle more than 2G).

Add more memory buses :)

> FreeBSD uses the standard recursive mapping, and it uses soft
> switching, which means that it has a small TSS profile (Intel

Yes, TSS is one of the many instructions that nobody uses. And looking
at the poor register set in the x86 ISA, it's blatantly obvious they
never asked a software engineer :-)

> priority processes, you prefer the ones that are in the same
> bank as the current process.

I'd keep all .text pages in the low 4GB of the machine. The probability
that a program's code is bigger than that is, imho, null.

> The bottom line is that, in order to have a *usable* amount of
> physical RAM over 4G, you pretty much have to go to a 64 bit
> platform, and if you are a user, now that Alpha is dead and no
> one looks to be making quick progress on the Alpha 2G barrier,
> that pretty much means "Itanium".

Except Itanium is nowhere production ready, so you probably need
something else, e.g. sparc or ppc. Mips is also a nice arch to work
with, btw, unfortunately SGI hardware is extremely expensive.

Cheers,
--=20
        Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net
        GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt
        EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk
        FreeBSD - The power to serve!

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6  6:27:43 2002
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Stephen Montgomery-Smith writes:
 > I have access to a rather large computer (3GB of RAM) and I would like
 > to write a program to access most of this memory.  I find that I am
 > unable to malloc more than about 0.5 GB of memory, even if I do it in

Check your per-process limits.

Also, rebuild your kernel after increasing MAXDSIZ:
(from LINT)
#
# Certain applications can grow to be larger than the 128M limit
# that FreeBSD initially imposes.  Below are some options to
# allow that limit to grow to 256MB, and can be increased further
# with changing the parameters.  MAXDSIZ is the maximum that the
# limit can be set to, and the DFLDSIZ is the default value for
# the limit.  MAXSSIZ is the maximum that the stack limit can be
# set to.  You might want to set the default lower than the max, 
# and explicitly set the maximum with a shell command for processes
# that regularly exceed the limit like INND.
#
options         MAXDSIZ="(256*1024*1024)"
options         MAXSSIZ="(256*1024*1024)"
options         DFLDSIZ="(256*1024*1024)"


Drew

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6  6:37:29 2002
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Terry Lambert writes:
 > now that HP owns what Intel didn't already own.  The FreeBSD Alpha
 > port (which *is* complete) unfortunately can't handle more than 2G
 > of RAM (apparently, this has to do with the I/O architecture issues
 > that have yet to be resolved completely, by way of code changes
 > that *should* happen, but haven't, because the i386 doesn't need
 > them to happen).

The only known problem is nearly all PCI network drivers don't use
busdma (disk controllers already use busdma).  If you're willing to
use a crappy ISA nic which either uses busdma or just does PIO, you
should be fine.  

(newer alphas also have a "monster window" for 64-bit pci dma; we
don't use this currently)

I've never been motivated to work on this because none of the alphas
in my care have ever had more memory than the direct mapped DMA window
size. (2GB some places, 1GB other places).

The sparc64 guys had the (good?) fortune of having to write a driver
for the most common nic on their platform, so they did it right.


Drew


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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:39:29 -0500
From: Dan Nelson <dnelson@allantgroup.com>
To: Andrew Gallatin <gallatin@cs.duke.edu>
Cc: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <stephen@math.missouri.edu>,
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Subject: Re: allocating memory
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In the last episode (Jun 06), Andrew Gallatin said:
> Stephen Montgomery-Smith writes:
>  > I have access to a rather large computer (3GB of RAM) and I would
>  > like to write a program to access most of this memory.  I find
>  > that I am unable to malloc more than about 0.5 GB of memory, even
>  > if I do it in
> 
> Check your per-process limits.
> 
> Also, rebuild your kernel after increasing MAXDSIZ: (from LINT)

You don't even need to rebuild the kernel.  Just add
kern.maxdsiz=1073741824 to /etc/loader.conf and reboot (to raise the
limit to 1gb, for example)

-- 
	Dan Nelson
	dnelson@allantgroup.com

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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:57:43 -0700
From: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
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Miguel Mendez wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 05:04:56AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
> How come? A Sun Blade 100 is about $1,000. That's not what I call
> expensive. It's not an E4500, but not a bad box once you load it with a
> bit more RAM and a SCSI controller. You can get Ultra 10 boxen pretty
> cheap these days too.

A Sun Blade 100 is limited to 2G of RAM.

A Sun Blade 2000 (limited to 8G of RAM) is ~US$10K

The lowest cost Ultra workstation (the 60) is also limited to 2G,
and costs ~US$7K.

The V120 rack mount is ~US$2.5K; it's the lowest end system that
can do 4G.  To get to 8G, you need to go to the 280R; also ~US$10K.


> > guess if I didn't limit your remarks to FreeBSD, and included Solaris,
> > AIX, or NetBSD as options, the field would be larger.
> 
> Yes, I'd include those OS, as FreeBSD is not, and won't be, production
> ready for a while for those platforms.

I guess you could post about that to the "solaris-hackers@sun.com"
mailing list, if such a thing existed... ;^).


> > port (which *is* complete) unfortunately can't handle more than 2G
> > of RAM (apparently, this has to do with the I/O architecture issues
> > that have yet to be resolved completely, by way of code changes
> > that *should* happen, but haven't, because the i386 doesn't need
> > them to happen).
> 
> It seems to me most developers have lost interest in it and moved
> already towards more exciting targets, like the sparc port.

Uh, there are some things that are transportable like that, but most
things aren't.  "I used to hack Alpha assembly code, but now I think
I will go hack SPARC 64 assembly code" doesn't really happen in the
real world (unless you are this crazy guy I know).


> > It's not there; there would have been a big announcement, I think,
> > like "Hyperthreading" (really, SMT).  Peter Wemm was reported by
> > Alfred Perlstein to have been working on it.  If Peter is on it, it
> 
> Well, now *that* would be interesting to see, as a hacker exercise.

Peter is a commercial, professional programmer.  Not just a hacker.
You don't get that kind of depth in efforts out of volunteers who
are not nuts.  8-).



> Assume a (software based) 64bit address space, by means of using long
> long for pointers. Of course you can only access a 4GB chunk at a time,
> but programs need not to know about that. Do they want to malloc or mmap
> 8GB? You let them. If the program is doing random access all the time,
> it will spend a lot of time in kernel, as not only pages, but segments
> have to be taken in account when accessing a memory location. It would
> work pretty well for programs doing consecutive accesses to their
> dataset (or within the 4GB boundary). Doing some MMU magic you can have
> a transparent system to allow programs use more than 4GB.

Virtual addressing is handled in hardware, which is limited to
32 bits.  To make this idea work, you would have to take a fault
on every memory access, and then do a fixup that (maybe) included
a bank selection process as well (similar to how write faults are
emulated for i386 in supervisor mode, since they do not result in
faults, and you want to avoid people using copy-on-write on a read
to a bogus address to spam kernel memory as a means of hacking a
higher priviledge level by reading, say, a uid of 0 into the
current process's cred).

Handling this would be so incredibly expensive that you might as
well give up and just add swap to the system in question.

Really, the only way to deal with it adequately is by abusing
hardware, at a task granularity, where you have work to do at
task management time, anyway, and it can be amortized over a
lot of CPU time.

> Maybe if/when that hardware becomes affordable I'll try myself such a hack :)

You should (in theory, from the documentation -- I don't have
a PAE board with 3G of RAM lying around to check) be able to
bank select even without the extra hardware, as long as the PAE
is supported in the processor.  You just need enough RAM to be
able to fit in the low granularity for two windows contents
worth.


> > In other words, if you need X G of RAM, then 4 times that much
> > is not going to save you, and you need to reconsider your code.
> 
> Databases for one love to have huge amounts of memory. It's not uncommon
> to have e.g. informix processes using 16GB of ram on Sun big iron.

Good reason to buy 64 bit iron, IMO, instead of trying to pretend
by emulating your 1GHz pentium with 32M of ram on your PC-XT and
swapping to the old ST506 to simulate RAM.


> > What this boils down to is that the physical RAM ends up getting
> > used up for housekeeping of the physical RAM.  You can push this
> > up closer to 3G; but to do that, you have to make modifications
> > to pmap.c and machdep.c.
> 
> Such an enhancement needs a lot of modifications to the VM subsystem.

Not as many as you might think, actually.  The PPC and Alpha
memory management somewhat resemble the work necessary to be
done in software.  And the task switching has to happen anyway.
Most of the problem is in the bank selection and limiting device
drivers to not using banked memory.

Even so, I don't think it's worthwhile.  The modifications that
*are* needed are fugly, and unlikely to be committed by anyone
polite, IMO.


> > housekeeping for.  So the only real approach is to got to a
> > MIPS-like software lookaside (hierarchical) so that you can
> > take each bank, and take the 1/4 out of the bank itself.  This
> > works, but it's incredibly expensive, overall.
> 
> Hmm, yes. So what does Windows 2000 Datacenter do wrt that problem?
> Waste memory like there's no tomorrow?

It's always fun to try to poke at Windows with a sharp stick,
but I'll take your comment literally, instead of as a sideways
jab at Windows:

Actually, I have no idea.

I know how I would do it in Windows 98 and in Windows NT 3.5 and
4.0 SP2, if it were my job to do, but as to what they actually
do, and in a more "modern" version of Windows, I don't know,
since I haven't had the pleasure of grovelling through the code
of a more modern Windows.

The closest I could come would be some educated guesses.  There
are at least three places you would have to hack in VMM32.VXD, and
about six other places in the IFSmgr and networking code, and I'm
probably forgetting some esoteric code path I never had to crawl
through with WinICE.

Probably, the MS people got some input into the design, so it's
close enough to what they were already doing that their overhead
would be lower.

The Linux overhead is pretty low, too, since they do a lot of
stuff in software that FreeBSD does in hardware, in their VM,
in order to make it more naturally easy to port.  The design is
less Intel-centric, making it a bit slower on Intel than it could
be, if they were running closer to the glass.


> > Basically ...the memory is only good for programs themselves,
> > not for DMA, mmap'ed files, more mbufs... anything really useful.
> 
> Of course, it's the applications demanding memory we are talking about.
> For the OS itself, it's just a half assed solution, no practical at all.

I'd really have to go out of my way to design a real pig of an
application in order to make it need this.  Almost everything I
do these days ends up I/O bound, where the ability to move data
in and out of memory ends up being the bottleneck.  With rare
exceptions, even going Gigabit, I have a hard time pushing an
800MHz CPU over 60%.

The PAE increases the amount of copying, and so it doesn't
save me bus cycles off my memory bus.  Even if all I did was
use the memory as a soft "L3 cache", I've got a lot more copy
overhead, which means that if my problem is my memory bus
bandwidth, all I'm doing is shooting myself im my knee so as to
avoid hitting my foot.

I have applications that would really like the extra memory, but
as they are all network applications, and I can't use the extra
memory as mbufs because I can't DMA into or out of it without
adding an extra copy in both directions, and I's have to add a
copy, both in and out, in most cases where I don't have one today.

So unless I did something dumb, like run a whole bunch of virtual
servers (I'd be inclined to bank select between servers, and then
time slice on the same boundary), I'd be hard pressed to find a
situation where it was a win (dumb because I might as well build
more 1U boxes: they're less expensive, faster, and one crashing
doesn't kill everyone else).


> > Now add in that most new, fast memory is actually limited to
> > 2G in a system because of the memory modules being used (e.g.
> > the new 450MHz memory busses can't handle more than 2G).
> 
> Add more memory buses :)

There is one motherboard that I know of with 2 (limit 4G).

The problem is that there is good evidence that most people who
build chipsets couldn't build one that could walk and chew gum
at the same time without causing problems.  I would have a very
hard time tryusing something like that.

The AMD Hammer stuff with the Hyperchannel, I think will be OK,
if they ever start selling boxes this century.  They are already
8 months behind their opriginal "tape out" date of last November.
Right now, it's just so much vapor.


> > priority processes, you prefer the ones that are in the same
> > bank as the current process.
> 
> I'd keep all .text pages in the low 4GB of the machine. The probability
> that a program's code is bigger than that is, imho, null.

At this point, you are redesigning it into an application specific
OS, rather than a general purpose OS.  If you do that, you really
can't expect that anyone would be willing to accept the penalty or
maintain the code, if they didn't.

This might work well for your specific need (the ability to have
up to 4 times the current memory limit without buying a 64 bit
processor, at the expense of really expensive 32 bit hardware),
but the marginal returns mean that the IRR on the investment is
going to satisfy maybe 5% of people who need that much RAM, which
I would argue are, at most, 5% of the users.  That's just under
3 tenths of a percent, agregate, for the user base.  No wonder it
is not already supported.  8-).


> > The bottom line is that, in order to have a *usable* amount of
> > physical RAM over 4G, you pretty much have to go to a 64 bit
> > platform, and if you are a user, now that Alpha is dead and no
> > one looks to be making quick progress on the Alpha 2G barrier,
> > that pretty much means "Itanium".
> 
> Except Itanium is nowhere production ready, so you probably need
> something else, e.g. sparc or ppc. Mips is also a nice arch to work
> with, btw, unfortunately SGI hardware is extremely expensive.

Production :== I can buy one at Fry's and load FreeBSD on it,
and it will work.  So it counts as "production", I think.

If you want a MIPS box that supports a lot of RAM, buy a Sibytes
card.  Chris Dimetreau is one of the guys who worked on it, so
it runs NetBSD, and plugs into a PCI slot.  It's supposed to be
a "network processor".  Be warned that the CPU speed on the MIPS
cores is pretty freakishly slow, compared to the original product
announcement, but if you are willing to entertain the idea of PAE,
then "freakishly slow" obviously doesn't bother you.  ;^).

Personally, I think that's a lot of effort, just to make political
noises about Itanium.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6  8: 4:14 2002
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Andrew Gallatin wrote:

[ ...Alpha 2G memory limit... ]

> The only known problem is nearly all PCI network drivers don't use
> busdma (disk controllers already use busdma).  If you're willing to
> use a crappy ISA nic which either uses busdma or just does PIO, you
> should be fine.
> 
> (newer alphas also have a "monster window" for 64-bit pci dma; we
> don't use this currently)
> 
> I've never been motivated to work on this because none of the alphas
> in my care have ever had more memory than the direct mapped DMA window
> size. (2GB some places, 1GB other places).

Yep.  That's the problem in a nutshell.  I have the same lack of
motivation (and significantly less memory, and only one Alpha box).

I was unaware of the "monster window".  It makes sense (like the
Serverworks board that can do the DMA to banked PAE pages by
using the physical address on the bus side of things).

Unfortunately, Alpha has pretty much been murdered in the night by
people who would rather kill it than keep up with it.  8-(.


> The sparc64 guys had the (good?) fortune of having to write a driver
> for the most common nic on their platform, so they did it right.

Actually...

You ought to post a "Junior Kernel Hacker Task".  You might get a
bite on it (you never know).  There have to be universities with
some aging Alpha hardware and some students who are there to
actually learn, rather than just there to get their union card...

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6  9:49:24 2002
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To: Miguel Mendez <flynn@energyhq.homeip.net>
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On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Miguel Mendez wrote:

> Except Itanium is nowhere production ready, so you probably need
> something else, e.g. sparc or ppc. Mips is also a nice arch to work
> with, btw, unfortunately SGI hardware is extremely expensive.

Are there any estimates of when freebsd will move to 64 bits on the
upcoming sledgehammer CPU from AMD?

It's my guess that it will be the first affordable, widely available, 64
bit system out there.  The itanium certainly looks like it was a
stillbirth, and rumors have Intel working on something more like the
sledgehammer.

Thanks,

--- David


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From: Mike Silbersack <silby@silby.com>
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On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, David Miller wrote:

> Are there any estimates of when freebsd will move to 64 bits on the
> upcoming sledgehammer CPU from AMD?

Rumor has it that adding such support will be relatively easy once actual
hammer hardware appears.  I believe that a few people had been working on
adding such support, but they became fed up with the slowness of emulation
and decided to wait.

See the paper on porting NetBSD to hammer that was presented at some
recent usenix convention for more info.  (I think it was usenix, but I'm
not sure.)

> It's my guess that it will be the first affordable, widely available, 64
> bit system out there.  The itanium certainly looks like it was a
> stillbirth, and rumors have Intel working on something more like the
> sledgehammer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --- David

I wouldn't be so quick to say that... Itanium 2 is only a few months away
now, and it's supposedly much better.  It'll probably only be a year or
two before Intel manages to make the architecture desireable to a large
number of people.  I doubt they'll ever quite match IBM's top chips in
speed, but they'll probably produce 50x more chips at 10% of the price.

Mike "Silby" Silbersack


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Is there anyone out there working on USB stuff? 

I reported kern/37624 a while back, and have heard nothing on it. 

It's an issue with the ICH3 USB (UHCI) driver. 

Thanks,
LER
-- 
Larry Rosenman                     http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 972-414-9812                 E-Mail: ler@lerctr.org
US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 12:36:42 2002
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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:36:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Doug White <dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu>
To: Aggelos Economopoulos <aoiko@cc.ece.ntua.gr>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cannot access disk
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On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Aggelos Economopoulos wrote:

> After adding a 40G ide disk(ad3) on my system, I 'ld like to devote some
> extra space to FreeBSD (there is already a linux installation on the 40G
> disk). However, after booting my -stable installation on the first
> disk(ad0), I get the error message "excessive recursion in search for
> slices" by the kernel on any attempt to access ad3 (mount a partition,
> fdisk -s /dev/ad3, or even a read() on ad3).

Try zeroing off the beginning of the disk with dd; maybe there's a corrupt
partition table there.

Doug White                    |  FreeBSD: The Power to Serve
dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu     |  www.FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 14: 8:47 2002
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Question:

	what types of things can be done by people who are generally just
learning thier way around some of the code? is there anyone willing to
patiently work with a fast learner (yes, honestly my biggest fear is since
that I'm entirely self taught is that I have some bad habits, and someone
must be willing to LART me at every opportunity on them until I learn)

	I take intruction well, and I am willing at admit I know NOTHING
and am willing to learn. Someone need help on anything they see that I can
help out with in my unemployed spare time?

	I'd even be willing to jump into the deep end if there's someone
williong to teach me how to tread water.

-Trish

--
Trish Lynch					trish@bsdunix.net
FreeBSD						The Power to Serve
Ecartis Core Team				trish@listmistress.org
                   http://www.freebsd.org



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 15: 4:22 2002
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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:04:01 -0400
From: Brian Reichert <reichert@numachi.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: accessing data track of multimedia CD?
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I've been beating my head for hours against a wall trying to research
this:

Under FreeBSD (4.5-RELEASE), with an ATAPI device (/dev/acd0c), how
can I mount, or otherwise access the data in a 'data track' of a
'multimedia CD'?

cdda2wav shows me:

  % /usr/local/bin/cdda2wav -D /dev/cdrom -I cooked_ioctl -J -N -H -g -v 1
  266240 bytes buffer memory requested, 4 buffers, 27 sectors
  #Cdda2wav version 1.10_freebsd_4.5-release_i386_i386 real time sched.
  soundcard support
  cannot read sector: Invalid argument
  cannot read sector: Invalid argument
  Tracks:11 61:19.31
  CDINDEX discid: rXTo7Z0JXsSpUQDWb7Wgd0NaHqQ-
  CDDB discid: 0x830e5d0b
  CD-Text: not detected
  CD-Extra: detected
  Album title: '' from ''
  T01:       0  5:36.38 audio linear copydenied stereo title '' from ''
  T02:   25238  3:34.58 audio linear copydenied stereo title '' from ''
  T03:   41346  4:37.07 audio linear copydenied stereo title '' from ''
  T04:   62128  5:59.47 audio linear copydenied stereo title '' from ''
  T05:   89100  4:04.50 audio linear copydenied stereo title '' from ''
  T06:  107450  7:48.09 audio linear copydenied stereo title '' from ''
  T07:  142559  4:15.21 audio linear copydenied stereo title '' from ''
  T08:  161705  4:36.25 audio linear copydenied stereo title '' from ''
  T09:  182430  5:08.38 audio linear copydenied stereo title '' from ''
  T10:  205568  5:58.00 audio linear copydenied stereo title '' from ''
  T11:  243818  7:06.38 data uninterrupted copydenied N/A
  Leadout:  275806

This last track is the one I'm curious about.

_What_ is it?  I've tried to mount the disc as a CD-ROM, to no avail...

I don't even know how to isolate that data; I've been losing a fight
trying to find the right arguments to 'readcd'...

I'd appreciate any advice...

-- 
Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert		<reichert@numachi.com>
37 Crystal Ave. #303			Daytime number: (603) 434-6842
Derry NH 03038-1713 USA			Intel architecture: the left-hand path

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 15: 6:34 2002
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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 23:05:45 +0100
From: j mckitrick <jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org>
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Subject: SMP/5.0 performance on single CPU?
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X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG


Hi all,

I'm sure the SMP features along with removal of the Big Giant Lock (TM)
are designed to sacrifice as little performance as possible across the
board.  In practical terms, will a 5.0 kernel without SMP have any
performance loss at all on a single CPU machine compared with the 4.x
kernel we use now?  I once read here on one of these lists that the
Solaris fine-grained locking was great for SMP, but was a lot of
overhead for single CPU machines (correct me if I misunderstood).

If there's a discussion you can point me to that will save the trouble
of explaining it (again) let me know.

NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed.  Thanks.

jm
-- 
My other computer is your windows box.

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 15:50:29 2002
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To: Doug White <dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: Cannot access disk
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 01:50:01 +0300
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X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG

On Thursday 06 June 2002 22:36, Doug White wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Aggelos Economopoulos wrote:
> > After adding a 40G ide disk(ad3) on my system, I 'ld like to devote
> > some extra space to FreeBSD (there is already a linux installation on
> > the 40G disk). However, after booting my -stable installation on the
> > first disk(ad0), I get the error message "excessive recursion in sear=
ch
> > for slices" by the kernel on any attempt to access ad3 (mount a
> > partition, fdisk -s /dev/ad3, or even a read() on ad3).
>
> Try zeroing off the beginning of the disk with dd; maybe there's a
> corrupt partition table there.

No, the partition table is _not_ corrupt. As I mentioned before, I have a=
=20
working linux installation on said disk. Moreover, I can parse the=20
partition table chain under the linux kernel (using userspace tools) but=20
under freebsd I get the same error as the freebsd kernel partition handli=
ng=20
code. I even read the mbr pt + extended pts with a hex editor, they are=20
just fine. I' ve spent about two weeks on the subject before ruling out a=
ll=20
posibilities that this is a partition handling problem.

This could only be a bug in the bio layer or some kernel quirk that I am =
not=20
aware of. The only reason that I do not give any more information is that=
 I=20
don't have a clue about where to look myself.

Thanks for trying to help.

--=20
Use recursive procedures for recursively-defined data structures.
            - The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plaugher)


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 16:10:19 2002
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Actually don;t worry about this

Forget it, really, I was just hoping someone wouldn;t mind someone to
"mold" into a generally decent workhorse.

-Trish

--
Trish Lynch					trish@bsdunix.net
FreeBSD						The Power to Serve
Ecartis Core Team				trish@listmistress.org
                   http://www.freebsd.org



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 16:29:28 2002
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From: Andrew <andrew@ugh.net.au>
To: Trish Lynch <trish@bsdunix.net>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: projects that need to be done...
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On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Trish Lynch wrote:

> 	what types of things can be done by people who are generally just
> learning thier way around some of the code? is there anyone willing to

You could go through the PR database and see if there are any problems
reported that you could solve. If you can't actually solve it it doesn't
matter...you're further analysis may be enough to help someone else fix
it...you could post your results to the mailing list...i.e I was looking
at PR xxxxx and I found this, this and this. I think the problem is line x
in x.c but I'm not sure what the correct solution is...

Andrew


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 17: 2:34 2002
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To: j mckitrick <jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org>
Subject: RE: SMP/5.0 performance on single CPU?
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On 06-Jun-2002 j mckitrick wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm sure the SMP features along with removal of the Big Giant Lock (TM)
> are designed to sacrifice as little performance as possible across the
> board.  In practical terms, will a 5.0 kernel without SMP have any
> performance loss at all on a single CPU machine compared with the 4.x
> kernel we use now?  I once read here on one of these lists that the
> Solaris fine-grained locking was great for SMP, but was a lot of
> overhead for single CPU machines (correct me if I misunderstood).

At the moment it is slower because interrupts are effectively blocked in
almost all of the kernel.  However, the SMP work is still in progress and
it will get better as time goes on.  One thing to note is that in 4.x,
if we are in the networking code, for example, we block all network
interrupts.  When the more-finely grained locking is implemented in 5.x,
if we are working on network card A, we won't be effectively blocking
network interrupts on card B, while in 4.x we would be blocking interrupts
on card B.  However, most of the kernel is still under Giant and so this
does not apply to 5.0 yet.

-- 

John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org>  <><  http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/
"Power Users Use the Power to Serve!"  -  http://www.FreeBSD.org/

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 17: 2:36 2002
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From: John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org>
To: Trish Lynch <trish@bsdunix.net>
Subject: Project: a benchmark utility
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On 06-Jun-2002 Trish Lynch wrote:
> 
> Question:
> 
>       what types of things can be done by people who are generally just
> learning thier way around some of the code? is there anyone willing to
> patiently work with a fast learner (yes, honestly my biggest fear is since
> that I'm entirely self taught is that I have some bad habits, and someone
> must be willing to LART me at every opportunity on them until I learn)
> 
>       I take intruction well, and I am willing at admit I know NOTHING
> and am willing to learn. Someone need help on anything they see that I can
> help out with in my unemployed spare time?
> 
>       I'd even be willing to jump into the deep end if there's someone
> williong to teach me how to tread water.

Actually, if there's a Perl/Tcl/Python/C/C++/shell hacker running around I
could use a decent benchmarking tool to compare stable and current.  Basically,
what I would like is to be able to do the following:

bench -n <number of trials> <command to run>

So for example:

bench -n 20 buildworld -j4

To run my buildworld script 20 times (with -j4 passed in as an argument to
buildworld).  I would like the program/script/whatever to collect time -l
stats for each iteration.  It can simply spit the time -l output to a simple
text file in a sensible format (one line per run, with a specific order of
columns for example, just the numbers to make the file easier to parse).

Once I have that, it would be nice to have a simple tool that would take one
of these tabular files as input and spit out appropriate statistics about
each column (mean, mode, median, stddev, highlight outliers, etc.).  If
some sensible (i.e. meaningful) graphs can be generated from this data using
gnuplot or some such that would be nice, too.  Any takers?

-- 

John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org>  <><  http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/
"Power Users Use the Power to Serve!"  -  http://www.FreeBSD.org/

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 17: 8:13 2002
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On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, John Baldwin wrote:

>
> On 06-Jun-2002 Trish Lynch wrote:
> >
> > Question:
> >
> >       what types of things can be done by people who are generally just
> > learning thier way around some of the code? is there anyone willing to
> > patiently work with a fast learner (yes, honestly my biggest fear is since
> > that I'm entirely self taught is that I have some bad habits, and someone
> > must be willing to LART me at every opportunity on them until I learn)
> >
> >       I take intruction well, and I am willing at admit I know NOTHING
> > and am willing to learn. Someone need help on anything they see that I can
> > help out with in my unemployed spare time?
> >
> >       I'd even be willing to jump into the deep end if there's someone
> > williong to teach me how to tread water.
>
> Actually, if there's a Perl/Tcl/Python/C/C++/shell hacker running around I
> could use a decent benchmarking tool to compare stable and current.  Basically,
> what I would like is to be able to do the following:
>
> bench -n <number of trials> <command to run>
>
> So for example:
>
> bench -n 20 buildworld -j4
>
> To run my buildworld script 20 times (with -j4 passed in as an argument to
> buildworld).  I would like the program/script/whatever to collect time -l
> stats for each iteration.  It can simply spit the time -l output to a simple
> text file in a sensible format (one line per run, with a specific order of
> columns for example, just the numbers to make the file easier to parse).
>
> Once I have that, it would be nice to have a simple tool that would take one
> of these tabular files as input and spit out appropriate statistics about
> each column (mean, mode, median, stddev, highlight outliers, etc.).  If
> some sensible (i.e. meaningful) graphs can be generated from this data using
> gnuplot or some such that would be nice, too.  Any takers?
>

oh one other thing, I won;t actually get to working on it til tomorrow
morning, my SO has forcefully told me to take a break.

-Trish

--
Trish Lynch					trish@bsdunix.net
FreeBSD						The Power to Serve
Ecartis Core Team				trish@listmistress.org
                   http://www.freebsd.org



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 17: 8:25 2002
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From: Mike Silbersack <silby@silby.com>
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Subject: Re: projects that need to be done...
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On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Andrew wrote:

> On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Trish Lynch wrote:
>
> > 	what types of things can be done by people who are generally just
> > learning thier way around some of the code? is there anyone willing to
>
> You could go through the PR database and see if there are any problems
> reported that you could solve. If you can't actually solve it it doesn't
> matter...you're further analysis may be enough to help someone else fix
> it...you could post your results to the mailing list...i.e I was looking
> at PR xxxxx and I found this, this and this. I think the problem is line x
> in x.c but I'm not sure what the correct solution is...
>
> Andrew

Or, if you're so inclined, start working on adding a feature that you find
lacking in FreeBSD.  Mentoring someone is a great idea, but it doesn't end
up working too well in a volunteer project.  Contribution works best when
it's self motivated.

If you can't think of anything to do, Andrew's suggestion of looking
through the PR database is a good one.

Mike "Silby" Silbersack


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 17:10:18 2002
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On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Mike Silbersack wrote:

>
> Or, if you're so inclined, start working on adding a feature that you find
> lacking in FreeBSD.  Mentoring someone is a great idea, but it doesn't end
> up working too well in a volunteer project.  Contribution works best when
> it's self motivated.
>
> If you can't think of anything to do, Andrew's suggestion of looking
> through the PR database is a good one.
>
> Mike "Silby" Silbersack
>

Yeah, I was just hoping someone wouldn;t mind it, since I either work
better with one person's input, having a type of high functioning autism,
I have a difficult time trying to make sense out of 30 different people's
30 different ways of doing something, I was trying to find someone who
wouldn;t mind trying to clone themselves in a sense.

-Trish

--
Trish Lynch					trish@bsdunix.net
FreeBSD						The Power to Serve
Ecartis Core Team				trish@listmistress.org
                   http://www.freebsd.org



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 17:11: 3 2002
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| almost all of the kernel.  However, the SMP work is still in progress and
| it will get better as time goes on.  One thing to note is that in 4.x,

Well, I'm trying to decide if I should make the leap to 5.0 when it
comes out (my early adopter side talking) or wait around for a rev or 2
(my -stable side talking).  I'm leaning toward waiting, since I depend
on my system for so much (it's my only box) and I also don't think I
have the time to learn the new details of 5.0 just yet.

Thanks for the comments, John.

NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed.  Thanks.

jm
-- 
My other computer is your windows box.

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 17:11:40 2002
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ok last two emails went to the list becaise I'm tired and craky and didn;t
mean to disclose any of that information, but accidentally "replied to
all"

excuse me, I'll go crawl in a hole now.

-Trish

--
Trish Lynch					trish@bsdunix.net
FreeBSD						The Power to Serve
Ecartis Core Team				trish@listmistress.org
                   http://www.freebsd.org



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 17:20:27 2002
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This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format.

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John Baldwin wrote:
 > Once I have that, it would be nice to have a simple tool that would
 > take one of these tabular files as input and spit out appropriate
 > statistics about each column (mean, mode, median, stddev, highlight
 > outliers, etc.).  If some sensible (i.e. meaningful) graphs can be
 > generated from this data using gnuplot or some such that would be
 > nice, too.  Any takers?

You want John Heidemann's JDB! I'm using it for any number crunching I
need to do for my benchmarks.

http://www.isi.edu/~johnh/SOFTWARE/JDB/index.html

Lars
-- 
Lars Eggert <larse@isi.edu>           USC Information Sciences Institute

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 17:22:32 2002
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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 20:22:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org>
To: j mckitrick <jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org>
Subject: Re: SMP/5.0 performance on single CPU?
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On 07-Jun-2002 j mckitrick wrote:
>| almost all of the kernel.  However, the SMP work is still in progress and
>| it will get better as time goes on.  One thing to note is that in 4.x,
> 
> Well, I'm trying to decide if I should make the leap to 5.0 when it
> comes out (my early adopter side talking) or wait around for a rev or 2
> (my -stable side talking).  I'm leaning toward waiting, since I depend
> on my system for so much (it's my only box) and I also don't think I
> have the time to learn the new details of 5.0 just yet.
> 
> Thanks for the comments, John.
> 
> NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed.  Thanks.

Well, if you have a test box available, your best bet is to try 5.0 out
if you can and compare it to 4.x to see how they compare to each other in
your specific situation.

-- 

John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org>  <><  http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/
"Power Users Use the Power to Serve!"  -  http://www.FreeBSD.org/

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 17:24:11 2002
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Subject: Re: SMP/5.0 performance on single CPU?
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On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, j mckitrick wrote:

> | almost all of the kernel.  However, the SMP work is still in progress and
> | it will get better as time goes on.  One thing to note is that in 4.x,
>
> Well, I'm trying to decide if I should make the leap to 5.0 when it
> comes out (my early adopter side talking) or wait around for a rev or 2
> (my -stable side talking).  I'm leaning toward waiting, since I depend
> on my system for so much (it's my only box) and I also don't think I
> have the time to learn the new details of 5.0 just yet.
>
> Thanks for the comments, John.
>
> NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed.  Thanks.
>
> jm

To be honest, I don't think that SMP threading should be a consideration
for anyone when 5.0-release rolls around.  Yes, once it's fully fleshed
out it will be a nice performance gain for SMP users.  At the same time, I
doubt that it will be much of slowdown for UP users, and I don't think
that it will be any slower than 4.x SMP.

On the other hand, there are numerous new features (GEOM, TrustedBSD,
OpenPAM, Snapshots + background fsck, etc) being implemented in 5.x that
will never be MFC'd to 4.x due to their complexity.  These features (and
whathever other ones pop up) are the ones you should evaulate the
usefulness of 5.0 with.

If none of the features are that useful to you, then by all means stick
with 4.7 or whatever we're up to when 5.0-release comes out.  I'm sure
that the 4.x branch will continue to exist for a long while, and that
you'll have plenty of company there.  In reality, we don't know what 5.0
will look like come November.  If you'd asked me back in January, I would
have had a very pessimistic outlook.  However, much work has been done in
the last two months; if work continues at this rate, 5.0 will have
significant advantages for many people.

Mike "Silby" Silbersack



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 17:35:53 2002
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To: Mike Silbersack <silby@silby.com>
Cc: John Baldwin <jhb@freebsd.org>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: SMP/5.0 performance on single CPU?
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| If none of the features are that useful to you, then by all means stick
| with 4.7 or whatever we're up to when 5.0-release comes out.  I'm sure

Well, I definitely plan to move to 5.x.  The question is when.  When it
will be ready for general use, and when I will be able to learn all the
new features I need to know about to use it.

| will look like come November.  If you'd asked me back in January, I would
| have had a very pessimistic outlook.  However, much work has been done in
| the last two months; if work continues at this rate, 5.0 will have
| significant advantages for many people.

Well that's really good to hear.  I had my concerns a year ago as well,
especially when the 5.0 release was delayed a year, and more recently
when the economy went south.  Not to mention the fact that MS has
continued its stranglehold on the industry and OSS hasn't led to the
'revolution' everyone was clamoring for.

jm
-- 
There are only 10 types of people in this world:
those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 17:45:21 2002
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:| If none of the features are that useful to you, then by all means stick
:| with 4.7 or whatever we're up to when 5.0-release comes out.  I'm sure
:
:Well, I definitely plan to move to 5.x.  The question is when.  When it
:will be ready for general use, and when I will be able to learn all the
:new features I need to know about to use it.

    I think a good point for developers not already testing 5.x to move to
    5.x will be when the VM system, UFS64, and the new compiler are
    stabilized.  People are working on all three of these problem areas now
    so my guess is that if we go with a new syscall vector to handle 64 bit
    entity changes things will be nicely stabilized in a month.

    My only big worry is how we deal with the 64 bit entity changes for
    things like time_t... e.g. use a new syscall vector or shove it into
    the old one.

    It will probably be at least 5.1 or even 5.2 before 5.x is useable in
    a production environment.  My guess anyway.

						-Matt


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 18:14: 8 2002
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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 18:13:04 -0700
From: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
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To: Trish Lynch <trish@bsdunix.net>
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Subject: Re: projects that need to be done...
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Trish Lynch wrote:
> Question:
> 
>         what types of things can be done by people who are generally just
> learning thier way around some of the code? is there anyone willing to
> patiently work with a fast learner (yes, honestly my biggest fear is since
> that I'm entirely self taught is that I have some bad habits, and someone
> must be willing to LART me at every opportunity on them until I learn)

The easiest approach that a lot of people have taken (I heard the
statistic that the majority of people with commit bits today had
their start this way) is to start documenting anything you don't
find self explanatory.

In the process, you will learn a lot about it, and at the same
time, you will machete some of the jungle to make a path for the
people who will follow.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Jun  6 21: 5:28 2002
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Cc: dan@langille.org
Subject: Re: cvsup doesn't get me what I want
In-Reply-To: <20020604222322.E371E3F3A@bast.unixathome.org>
References: <20020604012638.7CCF63F3A@bast.unixathome.org> <20020604222322.E371E3F3A@bast.unixathome.org>
Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA
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In article <20020604222322.E371E3F3A@bast.unixathome.org>,
Dan Langille <dan@langille.org> wrote:
> On 4 Jun 2002 at 8:37, John Polstra wrote:
> > I'll help you figure this out if you'll send me the following
> > information:
> 
> Thanks John.
> 
> > 
> >     The cvsupd server config files for the collection ("releases"
> >     and the list file).
> 
> [dan@xeon:/home/repositories/sup/freshports-phpAds] $ less list.cvs
> upgrade phpPgAds
> [dan@xeon:/home/repositories/sup/freshports-phpAds] $ less releases
> cvs list=list.cvs prefix=/home/repositories/freebsddiary

OK, this says the server is getting its files from
"/home/repositories/freebsddiary".  But ...

> >     The full pathname of the ChangeLog RCS file you used as your
> >     example, on the server machine.
> 
> /home/repositories/freshports-1/phpPgAds/ChangeLog,v

That is a different file!  It's under "/home/repositories/freshports-1",
which is not where the "releases" file tells the server to look.

I think that's the problem.

John
-- 
  John Polstra
  John D. Polstra & Co., Inc.                        Seattle, Washington USA
  "Disappointment is a good sign of basic intelligence."  -- Ch鐷yam Trungpa


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7  0:35: 3 2002
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Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:34:43 +0200
From: Nicolas Rachinsky <list@rachinsky.de>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: reichert@numachi.com
Subject: Re: accessing data track of multimedia CD?
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* Brian Reichert <reichert@numachi.com> [2002-06-06 18:04 -0400]:
> I've been beating my head for hours against a wall trying to research
> this:
> 
> Under FreeBSD (4.5-RELEASE), with an ATAPI device (/dev/acd0c), how
> can I mount, or otherwise access the data in a 'data track' of a
> 'multimedia CD'?
> 
> cdda2wav shows me:

Look at the output of
cdcontrol -f /dev/<your cdrom> Info
instead.

If there is a track with type data, you can try to mount this track
with mount_cd9660 with parameter -s followed by the startsector of the
data track (shown by cdcontrol).

HTH
Nicolas

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�ImCr(�:�5�
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John Baldwin wrote:
 > Once I have that, it would be nice to have a simple tool that would
 > take one of these tabular files as input and spit out appropriate
 > statistics about each column (mean, mode, median, stddev, highlight
 > outliers, etc.).  If some sensible (i.e. meaningful) graphs can be
 > generated from this data using gnuplot or some such that would be
 > nice, too.  Any takers?

You want John Heidemann's JDB! I'm using it for any number crunching I
need to do for my benchmarks.

http://www.isi.edu/~johnh/SOFTWARE/JDB/index.html

Lars
-- 
Lars Eggert <larse@isi.edu>           USC Information Sciences Institute

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7  2:14:28 2002
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--#MYBOUNDARY#
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Hey,

How is it going?  Thanks for looking at my ad on yahoo.  Here is the picture of me you 
were asking about.  http://web.where.org/trish .  I hope you understand the position I 
am in.  Hope to hear from you soon.

*hugz*
Trishy
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Subject: Re: SMP/5.0 performance on single CPU?
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| On the other hand, there are numerous new features (GEOM, TrustedBSD,
| OpenPAM, Snapshots + background fsck, etc) being implemented in 5.x that

It appears that most of these are features that are 'use as needed.'  In
other words, if I don't need them, I don't need to know about them.  On
the other hand, when moving to 4.0 there were issues with hardware
(specifically PC-cards and sound) that gave me a hard time for quite a
while.  These were less about new features and more about underlying
architecture and stability, and getting new code to work correctly.

Other than devfs (which I haven't investigated yet) it seems most of
these features are extras, not the basics, correct?  Other than SMP, of
course.

jm
-- 
There are only 10 types of people in this world:
those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7  5:47:11 2002
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Subject: Re: SMP/5.0 performance on single CPU? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:50:04 BST."
             <20020607125004.A83543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> 
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In message <20020607125004.A83543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>, j mckitrick writes:
>| On the other hand, there are numerous new features (GEOM, TrustedBSD,
>| OpenPAM, Snapshots + background fsck, etc) being implemented in 5.x that
>

>Other than devfs (which I haven't investigated yet) it seems most of
>these features are extras, not the basics, correct?  Other than SMP, of
>course.

It is the intent that GEOM will be standard (or basics if you like).

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7  6: 7:33 2002
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Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 20:07:12 +0700 (NOVST)
From: Alexey Privalov <lucky@land3.nsu.ru>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: randompid 
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hi all.

i`m trying to set randompid:

root@land3# sysctl kern.randompid=1
kern.randompid: 0 -> 0

what`s a need to set on?

best regards,
lucky.

PS:

`uname -a`:
FreeBSD land3.nsu.ru 4.5-STABLE FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE #0: Tue Mar 12 20:09:17 NOVT
i386





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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7  6:12:24 2002
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Subject: Re: SMP/5.0 performance on single CPU?
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On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 02:44:27PM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
| In message <20020607125004.A83543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>, j mckitrick writes:
| >| On the other hand, there are numerous new features (GEOM, TrustedBSD,
| >| OpenPAM, Snapshots + background fsck, etc) being implemented in 5.x that
| >
| 
| >Other than devfs (which I haven't investigated yet) it seems most of
| >these features are extras, not the basics, correct?  Other than SMP, of
| >course.
| 
| It is the intent that GEOM will be standard (or basics if you like).

But this will be one of those transparent features, correct?


NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed.  Thanks.

jm
-- 
My other computer is your windows box.

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7  6:13:24 2002
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Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:13:34 -0400
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On 6 Jun 2002 at 21:05, John Polstra wrote:

> In article <20020604222322.E371E3F3A@bast.unixathome.org>,
> Dan Langille <dan@langille.org> wrote:
> > On 4 Jun 2002 at 8:37, John Polstra wrote:
> > > I'll help you figure this out if you'll send me the following
> > > information:
> > 
> > Thanks John.
> > 
> > > 
> > >     The cvsupd server config files for the collection ("releases"
> > >     and the list file).
> > 
> > [dan@xeon:/home/repositories/sup/freshports-phpAds] $ less list.cvs
> > upgrade phpPgAds
> > [dan@xeon:/home/repositories/sup/freshports-phpAds] $ less releases
> > cvs list=list.cvs prefix=/home/repositories/freebsddiary
> 
> OK, this says the server is getting its files from
> "/home/repositories/freebsddiary".  But ...

That's the problem.  That should be /home/repositories/freshports-1

> > >     The full pathname of the ChangeLog RCS file you used as your
> > >     example, on the server machine.
> > 
> > /home/repositories/freshports-1/phpPgAds/ChangeLog,v

That's the wrong file I gave you, that should be this file:

/home/repositories/freebsddiary/phpPgAds/ChangeLog,v

> That is a different file!  It's under "/home/repositories/freshports-1",
> which is not where the "releases" file tells the server to look.

Once I fixed the releases file to point to the correct repo (DOH!), both 
tags worked (. and FreshPorts2).  That should have been my clue.   The 
collection exists in both repos but with different tags (and different 
customizations for each website).

Thank you John.  :)
-- 
Dan Langille


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7  6:26:47 2002
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From: Maxime Henrion <mux@freebsd.org>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Cc: Alexey Privalov <lucky@land3.nsu.ru>
Subject: Re: randompid
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Alexey Privalov wrote:
> hi all.
> 
> i`m trying to set randompid:
> 
> root@land3# sysctl kern.randompid=1
> kern.randompid: 0 -> 0
> 
> what`s a need to set on?

The value you give to this sysctl is not a boolean, it's a value used in
the formula which computes the randompid.  This value is sanity checked,
that's why giving 1 doesn't do anything.  Here is the code which is
responsible for this :

	if (pid < 0 || pid > PID_MAX - 100)     /* out of range */
		pid = PID_MAX - 100;
	else if (pid < 2)                       /* NOP */
		pid = 0;
	else if (pid < 100)                     /* Make it reasonable */
		pid = 100;

This should give you enough information to chose a good value. :-)

Maxime

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7  6:38:55 2002
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Subject: Re: SMP/5.0 performance on single CPU? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 2002 14:12:10 BST."
             <20020607141209.A84104@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> 
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In message <20020607141209.A84104@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>, j mckitrick writes:
>On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 02:44:27PM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>| In message <20020607125004.A83543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>, j mckitrick writes:
>| >| On the other hand, there are numerous new features (GEOM, TrustedBSD,
>| >| OpenPAM, Snapshots + background fsck, etc) being implemented in 5.x that
>| >
>| 
>| >Other than devfs (which I haven't investigated yet) it seems most of
>| >these features are extras, not the basics, correct?  Other than SMP, of
>| >course.
>| 
>| It is the intent that GEOM will be standard (or basics if you like).
>
>But this will be one of those transparent features, correct?

Hopefully.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7  6:43: 9 2002
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From: Byron Schlemmer <me@freebsdfanatic.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: AMI Megaraid + Reboot problems
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Hi folks I have sent the following to freebsd-questions but maybe this
is  a better place to ask?

I have a AMI MegaRaid controller :

amr0: <AMI MegaRAID> mem 0xffff0000-0xffffffff irq 11 at device 11.0 on pci0
amr0: <Series 475 40 Logical Drive Firmware> Firmware E161, BIOS 3.13, 32MB RAM

running on :

$ uname -a
FreeBSD machine 4.6-RC FreeBSD 4.6-RC #0: Tue May 28 15:35:17 BST 2002
root@machine:/usr/src/sys/compile/EHSB  i386

Now the problem is whenever I reboot, or shutdown, the box seems to
shutdown correctly, then I get a message saying :

amr0 flushing cache ... done
Rebooting...

And the machine seems to hang there, never actually rebooting? Has
anyone else experienced this? Any solutions to actually get the box
to reboot?

	-byron

--

"Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly."
       -- Henry Spencer



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7  9:33:34 2002
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I'm experiencing hangs as well.  At first I thought it was the fxp0/sym
driver thing, but I've since changed hardware almost completely and the
hangs persis.  I'm now strongly suspecting some kind of interrupt problem.
For the record, I've attached my dmesg output.  This is a dual AMD MP 1900+
(1.6 GHz) Tyan 2466N-4M system.  3Com xl0 ethernet, Adaptec 39160 and 3940
SCSI, Creative Soundblaster Live! audio, Radeon 8500 128MB video (XFree86
4.2).  2GB DDR memory.

I see very common short-term hangs, a few seconds to less than a minute.
The mouse and keyboard stop responding, X stops updating and everything
just pauses, the whole system (including the network).  It then starts
back up, often dropping keyboard or mouse data.  Once in a while (not
sure how often, but at least every couple of days) it hangs solid and
never comes back.  Totally unresponsive.  This invariably requires a
hard reset.

This is a busy system.  Near-constant load on the network (some 40-100KB/s),
lots of disk accesses.  Seems worse when network and/or SCSI load is high.

Dmesg output follows.  If there's anything I can do to help diagnose this
problem, please let me know...
-- 
Frank Mayhar frank@exit.com	http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting                 http://www.gpsclock.com/

--ELM1023467567-97776-0_
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Copyright (c) 1992-2002 The FreeBSD Project.
Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994
	The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
FreeBSD 4.6-RC #21: Thu May 23 15:24:24 PDT 2002
    frank@realtime.exit.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/REALTIME
Timecounter "i8254"  frequency 1193182 Hz
CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) MP 1900+ (1600.07-MHz 686-class CPU)
  Origin = "AuthenticAMD"  Id = 0x662  Stepping = 2
  Features=0x383fbff<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,MMX,FXSR,SSE>
  AMD Features=0xc0480000<<b19>,AMIE,DSP,3DNow!>
real memory  = 2146959360 (2096640K bytes)
config> q
avail memory = 2086846464 (2037936K bytes)
Programming 24 pins in IOAPIC #0
IOAPIC #0 intpin 2 -> irq 0
FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor motherboard
 cpu0 (BSP): apic id:  1, version: 0x00040010, at 0xfee00000
 cpu1 (AP):  apic id:  0, version: 0x00040010, at 0xfee00000
 io0 (APIC): apic id:  2, version: 0x00170011, at 0xfec00000
Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc042a000.
Preloaded userconfig_script "/boot/kernel.conf" at 0xc042a09c.
Preloaded elf module "umap.ko" at 0xc042a0ec.
link_elf: symbol null_bypass undefined
Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled
Using $PIR table, 12 entries at 0xc00fdf00
apm0: <APM BIOS> on motherboard
apm: found APM BIOS v1.2, connected at v1.2
npx0: <math processor> on motherboard
npx0: INT 16 interface
pcib0: <Host to PCI bridge> on motherboard
pci0: <PCI bus> on pcib0
pcib1: <PCI to PCI bridge (vendor=1022 device=700d)> at device 1.0 on pci0
pci1: <PCI bus> on pcib1
pci1: <ATI Radeon QL ATI Radeon 8500 graphics accelerator> at 5.0 irq 11
isab0: <PCI to ISA bridge (vendor=1022 device=7440)> at device 7.0 on pci0
isa0: <ISA bus> on isab0
atapci0: <AMD 768 ATA100 controller> port 0xf000-0xf00f at device 7.1 on pci0
ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0
ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0
chip1: <PCI to Other bridge (vendor=1022 device=7443)> at device 7.3 on pci0
ahc0: <Adaptec 3960D Ultra160 SCSI adapter> port 0x1000-0x10ff mem 0xc0000000-0xc0000fff irq 5 at device 9.0 on pci0
aic7899: Ultra160 Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 32/253 SCBs
ahc1: <Adaptec 3960D Ultra160 SCSI adapter> port 0x1400-0x14ff mem 0xc0001000-0xc0001fff irq 11 at device 9.1 on pci0
aic7899: Ultra160 Wide Channel B, SCSI Id=7, 32/253 SCBs
pcib2: <PCI to PCI bridge (vendor=1022 device=7448)> at device 16.0 on pci0
pci2: <PCI bus> on pcib2
ohci0: <OHCI (generic) USB controller> mem 0xc0200000-0xc0200fff irq 10 at device 0.0 on pci2
usb0: OHCI version 1.0, legacy support
usb0: SMM does not respond, resetting
usb0: <OHCI (generic) USB controller> on ohci0
usb0: USB revision 1.0
uhub0: (unknown) OHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1
uhub0: 4 ports with 4 removable, self powered
pcib3: <DEC 21050 PCI-PCI bridge> at device 6.0 on pci2
pci3: <PCI bus> on pcib3
ahc2: <Adaptec 3940 Ultra SCSI adapter> port 0x4000-0x40ff mem 0xc0300000-0xc0300fff irq 11 at device 4.0 on pci3
aic7880: Ultra Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 16/253 SCBs
ahc3: <Adaptec 3940 Ultra SCSI adapter> port 0x4400-0x44ff mem 0xc0301000-0xc0301fff irq 10 at device 5.0 on pci3
aic7880: Ultra Wide Channel B, SCSI Id=7, 16/253 SCBs
pcm0: <Creative EMU10K1> port 0x3080-0x309f irq 10 at device 7.0 on pci2
xl0: <3Com 3c905C-TX Fast Etherlink XL> port 0x3000-0x307f mem 0xc0201000-0xc020107f irq 10 at device 8.0 on pci2
xl0: Ethernet address: 00:e0:81:20:cc:de
miibus0: <MII bus> on xl0
ukphy0: <Generic IEEE 802.3u media interface> on miibus0
ukphy0:  10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto
orm0: <Option ROMs> at iomem 0xc0000-0xccfff,0xcd000-0xcd7ff,0xdc000-0xdffff on isa0
fdc0: <NEC 72065B or clone> at port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa0
fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold
fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0
atkbdc0: <Keyboard controller (i8042)> at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0
atkbd0: <AT Keyboard> irq 1 on atkbdc0
psm0: <PS/2 Mouse> irq 12 on atkbdc0
psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0
vga0: <Generic ISA VGA> at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0
sc0: <System console> on isa0
sc0: VGA <4 virtual consoles, flags=0x200>
sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0
sio0: type 16550A
sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0
sio1: type 16550A
ppc0: <Parallel port> at port 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa0
ppc0: SMC-like chipset (ECP/EPP/PS2/NIBBLE) in COMPATIBLE mode
ppc0: FIFO with 16/16/9 bytes threshold
lpt0: <Printer> on ppbus0
lpt0: Interrupt-driven port
ppi0: <Parallel I/O> on ppbus0
unknown: <PNP0303> can't assign resources
unknown: <PNP0c02> can't assign resources
unknown: <PNP0501> can't assign resources
unknown: <PNP0501> can't assign resources
unknown: <PNP0f13> can't assign resources
unknown: <PNP0401> can't assign resources
unknown: <PNP0700> can't assign resources
IPsec: Initialized Security Association Processing.
Waiting 8 seconds for SCSI devices to settle
SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched!
sa0 at ahc0 bus 0 target 5 lun 0
sa0: <Seagate STT20000N 6A51> Removable Sequential Access SCSI-2 device 
sa0: 10.000MB/s transfers (10.000MHz, offset 15)
da9 at ahc1 bus 0 target 9 lun 0
da9: <QUANTUM ATLAS IV 18 WLS 0909> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-3 device 
da9: 160.000MB/s transfers (80.000MHz, offset 31, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da9: 17522MB (35885168 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 2233C)
da2 at ahc1 bus 0 target 2 lun 0
da2: <HP 36.4GB A 80-F313 > Fixed Direct Access SCSI-2 device 
da2: 80.000MB/s transfers (40.000MHz, offset 63, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da2: 34732MB (71132960 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 4427C)
da1 at ahc1 bus 0 target 1 lun 0
da1: <FUJITSU MAF3364L SUN36G 1213> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-2 device 
da1: 80.000MB/s transfers (40.000MHz, offset 63, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da1: 34732MB (71132959 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 4427C)
da0 at ahc1 bus 0 target 0 lun 0
da0: <FUJITSU MAF3364L SUN36G 1213> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-2 device 
da0: 80.000MB/s transfers (40.000MHz, offset 63, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da0: 34732MB (71132959 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 4427C)
da112 at ahc0 bus 0 target 12 lun 0
da112: <IBM DGHS09U 0350> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-3 device 
da112: 40.000MB/s transfers (20.000MHz, offset 15, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da112: 8748MB (17916240 512 byte sectors: 64H 32S/T 8748C)
da115 at ahc0 bus 0 target 15 lun 0
da115: <IBM-PSG DRHS36D       !# 0272> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-3 device 
da115: 40.000MB/s transfers (20.000MHz, offset 15, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da115: 34715MB (71096640 512 byte sectors: 64H 32S/T 34715C)
da113 at ahc0 bus 0 target 13 lun 0
da113: <SEAGATE SX150176LC BA0F> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-2 device 
da113: 40.000MB/s transfers (20.000MHz, offset 15, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da113: 47702MB (97693755 512 byte sectors: 64H 32S/T 47702C)
da8 at ahc1 bus 0 target 8 lun 0
da8: <FUJITSU MAF3364L SUN36G 1213> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-2 device 
da8: 80.000MB/s transfers (40.000MHz, offset 63, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da8: 34732MB (71132959 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 4427C)
da203 at ahc2 bus 0 target 3 lun 0
da203: <COMPAQ HB00931931 03F1> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-3 device 
da203: 20.000MB/s transfers (10.000MHz, offset 8, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da203: 8678MB (17773500 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 1106C)
da205 at ahc2 bus 0 target 5 lun 0
da205: <COMPAQ DGHS09Y 01C0> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-3 device 
da205: 20.000MB/s transfers (10.000MHz, offset 8, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da205: 8678MB (17773500 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 1106C)
da204 at ahc2 bus 0 target 4 lun 0
da204: <COMPAQ DGHS09Y 01C0> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-3 device 
da204: 20.000MB/s transfers (10.000MHz, offset 8, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da204: 8678MB (17773500 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 1106C)
da200 at ahc2 bus 0 target 0 lun 0
da200: <COMPAQ ST19171WC 9A10> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-2 device 
da200: 20.000MB/s transfers (10.000MHz, offset 8, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da200: 8678MB (17773500 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 1106C)
da305 at ahc3 bus 0 target 5 lun 0
da305: <COMPAQ HD0093172C 3208> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-2 device 
da305: 10.000MB/s transfers (10.000MHz, offset 15), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da305: 8678MB (17773500 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 1106C)
da303 at ahc3 bus 0 target 3 lun 0
da303: <COMPAQ ST15150W 6216> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-2 device 
da303: 10.000MB/s transfers (10.000MHz, offset 15), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da303: 4094MB (8386000 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 522C)
cd1 at ahc0 bus 0 target 3 lun 0
cd1: <YAMAHA CRW8424S 1.0j> Removable CD-ROM SCSI-2 device 
cd1: 20.000MB/s transfers (20.000MHz, offset 15)
cd1: cd present [1 x 2048 byte records]
Mounting root from ufs:/dev/da0s1a
da201 at ahc2 bus 0 target 1 lun 0
da201: <IBM OEM DCHS09U 6363> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-2 device 
da201: 20.000MB/s transfers (10.000MHz, offset 8, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled
da201: 8689MB (17796077 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 1107C)
cd0 at ahc0 bus 0 target 1 lun 0
cd0: <TOSHIBA DVD-ROM SD-M1401 1007> Removable CD-ROM SCSI-2 device 
cd0: 20.000MB/s transfers (20.000MHz, offset 16)
cd0: cd present [4020288 x 2048 byte records]

--ELM1023467567-97776-0_--

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7  9:53:11 2002
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Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 09:52:32 -0700
From: Lars Eggert <larse@ISI.EDU>
Organization: USC Information Sciences Institute
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Subject: Re: Numerous hard hangs on TWO different ASUS P4T-E w/P4 1.6G
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Frank Mayhar wrote:
> I see very common short-term hangs, a few seconds to less than a minute.
> The mouse and keyboard stop responding, X stops updating and everything
> just pauses, the whole system (including the network).  It then starts
> back up, often dropping keyboard or mouse data.  Once in a while (not
> sure how often, but at least every couple of days) it hangs solid and
> never comes back.  Totally unresponsive.  This invariably requires a
> hard reset.
> 
> This is a busy system.  Near-constant load on the network (some 40-100KB/s),
> lots of disk accesses.  Seems worse when network and/or SCSI load is high.

I've seen these, too, on a dual-P3 Dell Precision 420. Under high loads 
(buildworld), I get the exact same short-time freezes that sometimes 
recover, and sometimes lockup the machine solid.

We have the same sound card (and network card), and in my case, not 
playing audio during high loads solves the problem - are you using your 
audio device at all when this happens?

Lars
-- 
Lars Eggert <larse@isi.edu>           USC Information Sciences Institute

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7  9:57:54 2002
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From: Frank Mayhar <frank@exit.com>
Message-Id: <200206071657.g57Gvc2J003748@realtime.exit.com>
Subject: Re: Numerous hard hangs on TWO different ASUS P4T-E w/P4 1.6G
In-Reply-To: <3D00E4D0.90007@isi.edu>
To: Lars Eggert <larse@ISI.EDU>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:57:38 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: frank@exit.com, stable@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Reply-To: frank@exit.com
X-Copyright0: Copyright 2002 Frank Mayhar.  All Rights Reserved.
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Lars Eggert wrote:
> I've seen these, too, on a dual-P3 Dell Precision 420. Under high loads 
> (buildworld), I get the exact same short-time freezes that sometimes 
> recover, and sometimes lockup the machine solid.
> 
> We have the same sound card (and network card), and in my case, not 
> playing audio during high loads solves the problem - are you using your 
> audio device at all when this happens?

Nope.  Well, sometimes, but not often.  When I am, I get the "repeating
the last sample" effect during the freeze, the same as if the sound card
wasn't generating interrupts (or the system wasn't servicing those
interrupts).  This is one of the things that makes me suspect interrupt
problems.
-- 
Frank Mayhar frank@exit.com	http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting                 http://www.gpsclock.com/

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 10:35:55 2002
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Frank Mayhar wrote:
>>I've seen these, too, on a dual-P3 Dell Precision 420. Under high loads 
>>(buildworld), I get the exact same short-time freezes that sometimes 
>>recover, and sometimes lockup the machine solid.
>>
>>We have the same sound card (and network card), and in my case, not 
>>playing audio during high loads solves the problem - are you using your 
>>audio device at all when this happens?
> 
> Nope.  Well, sometimes, but not often.  When I am, I get the "repeating
> the last sample" effect during the freeze, the same as if the sound card
> wasn't generating interrupts (or the system wasn't servicing those
> interrupts).  This is one of the things that makes me suspect interrupt
> problems.

I get the "repeating last sample" also (good way to describe it).

This may be unrelated, but I also found out that the sound driver isn't 
happy when the card shares its IRQ with someone. The Dell Precision has 
an onboard SCSI controller that by default shares an IRQ with the sound 
card. Even with no SCSI disks connected, the sound would be really 
choppy. When I disabled the SCSI controller in the BIOS, those problems 
went away.

Lars
-- 
Lars Eggert <larse@isi.edu>           USC Information Sciences Institute

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 11:27:48 2002
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:26:32 -0700
From: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
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Cc: frank@exit.com, stable@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Numerous hard hangs on TWO different ASUS P4T-E w/P4 1.6G
References: <200206071632.g57GWlFU099531@realtime.exit.com> <3D00E4D0.90007@isi.edu>
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Lars Eggert wrote:
> Frank Mayhar wrote:
> > I see very common short-term hangs, a few seconds to less than a minute.
> > The mouse and keyboard stop responding, X stops updating and everything
> > just pauses, the whole system (including the network).  It then starts
> > back up, often dropping keyboard or mouse data.  Once in a while (not
> > sure how often, but at least every couple of days) it hangs solid and
> > never comes back.  Totally unresponsive.  This invariably requires a
> > hard reset.
> >
> > This is a busy system.  Near-constant load on the network (some 40-100KB/s),
> > lots of disk accesses.  Seems worse when network and/or SCSI load is high.
> 
> I've seen these, too, on a dual-P3 Dell Precision 420. Under high loads
> (buildworld), I get the exact same short-time freezes that sometimes
> recover, and sometimes lockup the machine solid.
> 
> We have the same sound card (and network card), and in my case, not
> playing audio during high loads solves the problem - are you using your
> audio device at all when this happens?

If you have NNTP enabled, you might try disabling that, as well.  It
could be something unexpected in the timer code.

Another alternative could be to force:

	kern.timecounter.method: 0
	kern.timecounter.hardware: i8254

If this is not the default on your system, in case it's a coupling
problem.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 11:28:38 2002
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Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:27:35 -0700
From: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
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To: Lars Eggert <larse@ISI.EDU>, frank@exit.com, stable@freebsd.org,
	hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Numerous hard hangs on TWO different ASUS P4T-E w/P4 1.6G
References: <200206071632.g57GWlFU099531@realtime.exit.com> <3D00E4D0.90007@isi.edu> <3D00FAD8.DC0B1271@mindspring.com>
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Terry Lambert wrote:
> If you have NNTP enabled, you might try disabling that, as well.  It
> could be something unexpected in the timer code.

Ugh.  "NTP"/"ntpd".

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 11:41:59 2002
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Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:41:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Doug White <dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu>
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On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, [iso-8859-7] 嗚蜲錝� 矨膬臩檇豵纆濿 wrote:

> On Thursday 06 June 2002 22:36, Doug White wrote:
> > On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Aggelos Economopoulos wrote:
> > > After adding a 40G ide disk(ad3) on my system, I 'ld like to devote
> > > some extra space to FreeBSD (there is already a linux installation on
> > > the 40G disk). However, after booting my -stable installation on the
> > > first disk(ad0), I get the error message "excessive recursion in search
> > > for slices" by the kernel on any attempt to access ad3 (mount a
> > > partition, fdisk -s /dev/ad3, or even a read() on ad3).
> >
> > Try zeroing off the beginning of the disk with dd; maybe there's a
> > corrupt partition table there.
>
> No, the partition table is _not_ corrupt. As I mentioned before, I have a
> working linux installation on said disk. Moreover, I can parse the
> partition table chain under the linux kernel (using userspace tools) but
> under freebsd I get the same error as the freebsd kernel partition handling
> code. I even read the mbr pt + extended pts with a hex editor, they are
> just fine. I' ve spent about two weeks on the subject before ruling out all
> posibilities that this is a partition handling problem.

Well if tools blow up on multiple platforms, I'm inclined to point to a
corrupt partition table.  Linux may have a workaround but it doesn't get
around the root brokenness.

Fix your partition table and your systems will be happy.

Doug White                    |  FreeBSD: The Power to Serve
dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu     |  www.FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 11:44: 3 2002
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Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:42:32 -0700
From: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
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To: Lars Eggert <larse@ISI.EDU>
Cc: frank@exit.com, stable@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Numerous hard hangs on TWO different ASUS P4T-E w/P4 1.6G
References: <200206071657.g57Gvc2J003748@realtime.exit.com> <3D00EEC9.50009@isi.edu>
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Lars Eggert wrote:
> This may be unrelated, but I also found out that the sound driver isn't
> happy when the card shares its IRQ with someone. The Dell Precision has
> an onboard SCSI controller that by default shares an IRQ with the sound
> card. Even with no SCSI disks connected, the sound would be really
> choppy. When I disabled the SCSI controller in the BIOS, those problems
> went away.

Most likely, it's the SCSI card IRQ determination that's taking
a long time to run, when the IRQ is shared.  Basically, if you
get an interrupt, all the devices that are attached to it have
to be polled to see if they caused it.

For some reason, polling the SCSI controller appears to be taking
a relatively very long time (or actually having work to do, with
nothing connected to it).

This could be indicative of a bug in the driver for that card,
since the poll routine should decide that there is nothing to
service for the card, and just return very, very quickly.

It could also be indicative of a problem with the hardware,
where the SCSI card is generating interrupts when it's bus is
unterminated or simply "because it feels like it" (this should
not happen, in practice; you can use "vmstat -i" to see if it
is happening anyway).

I don't know if it's safe/prudent for the OS to disable two
stage controllers (like SCSI or ATA) that aren't going to be
useful to the system without a target present.  If it's possible
to hook up a device to the bus, and not have to inform the
system for the device to become recognized (e.g., it should be
possible to not require an explicit user initiated reprobe, at
least for SCSI, if there is a SCSI reset when an unpowered target
is powered, so this would end up needing to be sysctl'able), then
it should be possible to avoid the extra bus overhead associated
with a poll, automatically.  I would *strongly* discourage anyone
from implementing this optimization until the underlying SCSI
problem is diagnosed and fixed, since from your report, it would
be very effective in masking the problem without fixing it, until
someone hooked up a disk or tape, and things went to hell again.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 12: 1:14 2002
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From: Frank Mayhar <frank@exit.com>
Message-Id: <200206071900.g57J06NU024226@realtime.exit.com>
Subject: Re: Numerous hard hangs on TWO different ASUS P4T-E w/P4 1.6G
In-Reply-To: <3D00FAD8.DC0B1271@mindspring.com>
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: Lars Eggert <larse@ISI.EDU>, frank@exit.com, stable@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Terry Lambert wrote:
> If you have NTP enabled, you might try disabling that, as well.  It
> could be something unexpected in the timer code.

Nope.  Killed ntpd, still happenning...

> Another alternative could be to force:
> 
> 	kern.timecounter.method: 0
> 	kern.timecounter.hardware: i8254

This is actually the default for my system.

I'm not seeing any stray interrupts, either:

[73]~ >uptime
11:58AM  up 15:41, 5 users, load averages: 2.89, 2.56, 2.36
[74]~ >vmstat -i
interrupt                   total       rate
stray irq7                      1          0
ahc0 irq5                  295768          5
mux irq11                 1499613         26
mux irq10                 7155313        126
fdc0 irq6                       1          0
atkbd0 irq1                 19380          0
psm0 irq12                 630291         11
ppc0 irq7                       1          0
clk irq0                  5645002         99
Total                    15245370        270

I am a tad suspicious of sharing interrupts with the SB Live card, though.
I'm going to next disable the onboard IDE (thought I had already done that,
sigh) and the parallel port to get a few irqs back and try to arrange for
the sound card to use one of them.
-- 
Frank Mayhar frank@exit.com	http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting                 http://www.gpsclock.com/

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 12:13:36 2002
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To: Doug White <dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: Cannot access disk
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 22:12:21 +0300
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On Friday 07 June 2002 21:41, Doug White wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, [iso-8859-7] =B6=E3=E3=E5=EB=EF=F2 =CF=E9=EA=EF=ED=EF=
=EC=FC=F0=EF=F5=EB=EF=F2 wrote:
> > On Thursday 06 June 2002 22:36, Doug White wrote:
> > > On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Aggelos Economopoulos wrote:
> > > > After adding a 40G ide disk(ad3) on my system, I 'ld like to devo=
te
> > > > some extra space to FreeBSD (there is already a linux installatio=
n
> > > > on the 40G disk). However, after booting my -stable installation =
on
> > > > the first disk(ad0), I get the error message "excessive recursion
> > > > in search for slices" by the kernel on any attempt to access ad3
> > > > (mount a partition, fdisk -s /dev/ad3, or even a read() on ad3).
> > >
> > > Try zeroing off the beginning of the disk with dd; maybe there's a
> > > corrupt partition table there.
> >
> > No, the partition table is _not_ corrupt. As I mentioned before, I ha=
ve
> > a working linux installation on said disk. Moreover, I can parse the
> > partition table chain under the linux kernel (using userspace tools)
> > but under freebsd I get the same error as the freebsd kernel partitio=
n
> > handling code. I even read the mbr pt + extended pts with a hex edito=
r,
> > they are just fine. I' ve spent about two weeks on the subject before
> > ruling out all posibilities that this is a partition handling problem=
=2E
>
> Well if tools blow up on multiple platforms, I'm inclined to point to a
> corrupt partition table.

What _exactly_ do you mean? I can't get your logic(?) in the above senten=
ce.

> Linux may have a workaround but it doesn't get
> around the root brokenness.

There is no workaround. I've been studying both implementations for the l=
ast=20
two weeks. I actually implemented a partition viewer based on the linux=20
kernel code which works under linux, but is confused in the same way as t=
he=20
freebsd kernel is, when run under freebsd. I think you haven't read my=20
initial posting with full attention...

>
> Fix your partition table and your systems will be happy.
>
> Doug White                    |  FreeBSD: The Power to Serve
> dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu     |  www.FreeBSD.org

--=20
Make your program read from top to bottom.
            - The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plaugher)


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 13: 8:45 2002
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Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 16:08:39 -0400
From: Brian Reichert <reichert@numachi.com>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, reichert@numachi.com
Subject: Re: accessing data track of multimedia CD?
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On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 09:34:43AM +0200, Nicolas Rachinsky wrote:
> * Brian Reichert <reichert@numachi.com> [2002-06-06 18:04 -0400]:
> > I've been beating my head for hours against a wall trying to research
> > this:
> > 
> > Under FreeBSD (4.5-RELEASE), with an ATAPI device (/dev/acd0c), how
> > can I mount, or otherwise access the data in a 'data track' of a
> > 'multimedia CD'?
> > 
> > cdda2wav shows me:
> 
> Look at the output of
> cdcontrol -f /dev/<your cdrom> Info
> instead.
> 
> If there is a track with type data, you can try to mount this track
> with mount_cd9660 with parameter -s followed by the startsector of the
> data track (shown by cdcontrol).

mount_cd9660 is supposed to, out-of-hand, mount the last data track
on a CD, Worked for me as such on older, other boxes.

Well, I had tried that earlier on my box, but let me perform that
in front of an audience:

  # dmesg | grep acd0
  acd0: DVD-ROM <SAMSUNG DVD-ROM SD-608> at ata1-master using WDMA2

  # sysctl -a | grep hw.ata
  hw.ata.ata_dma: 1
  hw.ata.wc: 1
  hw.ata.tags: 0
  hw.ata.atapi_dma: 1
  hw.atamodes: dma,dma,dma,---,

  # cdcontrol -f /dev/acd0c Info | grep data
     11  54:12.68   7:08.38  243818   31988   data

  # mount_cd9660 -s 243818  /dev/acd0c /mnt
  mount_cd9660: /dev/acd0c: Invalid argument

I've tried this with both DMA and PIO on my drive, which I'll point
out is a DVD-ROM drive, not a CD-ROM drive.

With your pointers, though, I was able to correctly use 'mount'
using both of my test CDs on another box running 4.1-RELEASE with
a classic CD-ROM drive:

  acd0: CDROM <FX4010M> at ata0-slave using UDMA33

So, this issue at hand is some combination of my kernel (4.5-RELEASE)
and my hardware (DVD-ROM).  Any further suggestions?

> HTH
> Nicolas

-- 
Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert		<reichert@numachi.com>
37 Crystal Ave. #303			Daytime number: (603) 434-6842
Derry NH 03038-1713 USA			Intel architecture: the left-hand path

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 13:57:18 2002
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	(envelope-from jnoble@perlwizard.org)
Subject: Getting PXE to leave an existing partition alone
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I've got a hundred systems that I'm looking at upgrading to 4.4 from
4.1.  These systems were originally setup with pxe, with the following
partioning scheme (install.cfg format):

################################
# Now set the parameters for the partition editor on mlxd0
disk=mlxd0
partition=exclusive
bootManager=standard
diskPartitionEditor
################################

################################
# All sizes are expressed in 512 byte blocks!
#
mlxd0s1-1=ufs 400000 /
mlxd0s1-2=swap 4096000 none
mlxd0s1-3=ufs 400000 /var
mlxd0s1-4=ufs 8192000 /usr
mlxd0s1-5=ufs 0 /virtual
# Let's do it!
diskLabelEditor

For the upgrade, I'd like to leave the /virtual partition alone (it
contains user's home directories and such).  According to the
sysinstall(8) manpage I should be able to add a N to the end of the
/virtual partition line and it will not newfs the drive.  The following
line does not work (i.e. all the data on /virtual goes bye bye):

mlxd0s1-5=ufs 0 /virtual N

Has anyone used pxe to upgrade a system and leave one or more existing
FreeBSD partitions alone?  How should I go about this?

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Jason


Full install.cfg:
# FreeBSD installer for Mylex drives

# Turn on extra debugging.
debug=YES

# Ok, this ought to turn off ALL prompting, don't complain to me that 
# you
# lost a machine because you netbooted it on  the same subnet as this
# box
nonInteractive=YES
noWarn=YES
tryDHCP=YES

################################
# My host specific data
hostname=NameMe
domainname=perlwizard.org
################################

################################
# Which installation device to use
nfs=10.15.100.4:/virtual/perlwizard1.4.0
netDev=fxp1
tryDHCP=YES
mediaSetNFS
################################

################################
# Select which distributions we want.
dists= bin doc manpages catpages proflibs dict info des compat1x
compat20 compat21 compat22 compat3x comp
at4x crypto
distSetCustom
################################

################################
# Now set the parameters for the partition editor on mlxd0
disk=mlxd0
#partition=all
partition=exclusive
bootManager=standard
diskPartitionEditor
#diskPartitionWrite
################################

################################
# All sizes are expressed in 512 byte blocks!
#
mlxd0s1-1=ufs 400000 /
mlxd0s1-2=swap 4096000 none
mlxd0s1-3=ufs 400000 /var
mlxd0s1-4=ufs 8192000 /usr
# The following line newfs's /virtual, the second line does not
#mlxd0s1-5=ufs 0 /virtual
mlxd0s1-5=ufs 0 /virtual N
# Let's do it!
diskLabelEditor
#diskLabelCommit

# OK, everything is set.  Do it!
installCommit

#package=perlwizard-1.4.0
#packageAdd

package=pxe-perlwizard-kludge-1.3.0
packageAdd

###THE OLD STUFF###
#package=ports-1.0
#packageAdd
#package=linux_base-6.1
#packageAdd
#package=perlwizard-password-1.0
#packageAdd

shutdown
n


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 15:49: 8 2002
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From: Nik Clayton <nik@freebsd.org>
To: Larry Rosenman <ler@lerctr.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: USB: Anyone working on it?
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On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 02:09:08PM -0500, Larry Rosenman wrote:
> Is there anyone out there working on USB stuff?=20

Joe Karthauser -- joe@freebsd.org

> I reported kern/37624 a while back, and have heard nothing on it.=20

He's on holiday at the moment.  Back in a few weeks, IIRC.

N
--=20
FreeBSD: The Power to Serve      http://www.freebsd.org/               (__)
FreeBSD Documentation Project    http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/    \\\'',)
                                                                      \/  \=
 ^
   --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F  94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 ---         .\._/=
_)

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 15:50:36 2002
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From: Nik Clayton <nik@freebsd.org>
To: Mike Silbersack <silby@silby.com>
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On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 12:47:54PM -0500, Mike Silbersack wrote:
> See the paper on porting NetBSD to hammer that was presented at some
> recent usenix convention for more info.  (I think it was usenix, but I'm
> not sure.)

BSDCon US 2002.  It was presented by Frank van der Linden.  From my
notes of the conference, Frank said the porting effort took about six
weeks of effort.

N
--=20
FreeBSD: The Power to Serve      http://www.freebsd.org/               (__)
FreeBSD Documentation Project    http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/    \\\'',)
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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 16:14:55 2002
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Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 01:14:33 +0200 (CEST)
From: Lukas Ertl <l.ertl@univie.ac.at>
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Subject: Automounting samba shares / pam_mount
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Hi -hackers,

I'm currently trying to find out how to automount homedirs via samba when
users log in (via ssh, ftp, telnet,...), and I've found pam_mount, a PAM
module which seems to do the trick under Linux. I've also found that this
module was rejected as a port about one year ago because the code was "too
messy", whatever that means :-)

Although I'm just a beginner in C, and these are my first steps in
"PAM-land", I tried to play with it and see if I can get it to work. Well,
I can't. I can compile it (with a few modifications), but if I add it to
pam.conf and try to login I get "unable to resolve symbol:
pam_am_authenticate" and similar errors in /var/log/messages. I'm not
quite sure how to solve this, so I hope I can get some advice from you.

Or would you rather say that I should forget pam_mount and look for some
other way to automount my samba shares (maybe even write a PAM from
scratch for this purpose)?

regards,
le

--=20
Lukas Ertl                              eMail: l.ertl@univie.ac.at
UNIX-Systemadministrator                Tel.:  (+43 1) 4277-14073
Zentraler Informatikdienst (ZID)        Fax.:  (+43 1) 4277-9140
der Universit=E4t Wien                    http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~le/


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 16:24:41 2002
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Subject: Re: USB: Anyone working on it?
From: Larry Rosenman <ler@lerctr.org>
To: Nik Clayton <nik@freebsd.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <20020607181109.J39690@canyon.nothing-going-on.org>
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On Fri, 2002-06-07 at 12:11, Nik Clayton wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 02:09:08PM -0500, Larry Rosenman wrote:
> > Is there anyone out there working on USB stuff? 
> 
> Joe Karthauser -- joe@freebsd.org
> 
> > I reported kern/37624 a while back, and have heard nothing on it. 
> 
> He's on holiday at the moment.  Back in a few weeks, IIRC.
Aha, that explains why I didn't get an answer to an E-Mail I posted to
him after finding his Patchset.  (didn't make a difference, BTW). 

LER
-- 
Larry Rosenman                     http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 972-414-9812                 E-Mail: ler@lerctr.org
US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 18:30:45 2002
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From: "Lucky Green" <shamrock@cypherpunks.to>
To: <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: LINT CPU features table
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 18:30:12 -0700
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[This inquiry found no takers on -questions, so I am trying it on
-hackers]

I found the list of CPU options in LINT to be not very accessible. What
would be considerably more useful, perhaps in addition to the
information in LINT, would be a table of CPU's, with a checkbox for 
each CPU feature that should/could be enabled for this particular CPU.

Is anybody here aware of such a table? If not, is anybody here able to
perhaps create such a table and add it to the Handbook? I believe it
would be of substantial help to the user.

"OK, I have an AMD K6-333". [User looks down the "AMD K6" row of the
table]. "I can turn on feature L, M, and Y".

Thanks in advance,
--Lucky


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 21:35:14 2002
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From: Amit Rao <arao@niksun.com>
To: John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: Project: a benchmark utility
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 00:34:56 -0400
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On Friday 07 June 2002 06:49 pm, John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org>  wrote:
> Actually, if there's a Perl/Tcl/Python/C/C++/shell hacker running around I
> could use a decent benchmarking tool to compare stable and current.
> �Basically, what I would like is to be able to do the following:
>
> bench -n <number of trials> <command to run>
>
> So for example:
>
> bench -n 20 buildworld -j4
>
> To run my buildworld script 20 times (with -j4 passed in as an argument to
> buildworld). �I would like the program/script/whatever to collect time -l
> stats for each iteration. �It can simply spit the time -l output to a
> simple text file in a sensible format (one line per run, with a specific
> order of columns for example, just the numbers to make the file easier to
> parse).
>
> Once I have that, it would be nice to have a simple tool that would take
> one of these tabular files as input and spit out appropriate statistics
> about each column (mean, mode, median, stddev, highlight outliers, etc.).
> �If some sensible (i.e. meaningful) graphs can be generated from this data
> using gnuplot or some such that would be nice, too. �Any takers?

I'll bite. 
try the  following program:

---------------------------------
#!/usr/bin/env perl

# bench.pl

# benchmarking tool to collect /usr/bin/time -l stats for each
# iteration of the specified program. The output is in a form suitable
# for further processing by John Heidemann's JDB
# (http://www.isi.edu/~johnh/SOFTWARE/JDB/index.html)

#  Eg:  bench.pl -n 20 "buildworld -j4"

# Copyright 2002 Amit K. Rao
# arao@niksun.com

use strict;
use Getopt::Std;

sub usage {
    print <<END;
usage: $0 [-n <num_trials>] <command_to_run>
      Default no. of trials is 10.
      Eg:  $0 -n 20 "buildworld -j4"
END
  exit 1;
}

sub getrusage() {
  my $CMD = shift;
  my $TLOG;
  chomp($TLOG=`mktemp /usr/tmp/time.XXXXXX`);
  system "/usr/bin/time -l -o $TLOG $CMD 2>&1 > /dev/null";
  if (-e $TLOG) {
    my $out = `awk '{if (\$2==\"real\") {printf \"%s %s %s\", \$1, \$3, \$5} 
else { printf \" %s\", \$1}} END {printf \"\\n\"} ' $TLOG`;
    return $out;
    unlink($TLOG);
  }
  else {
    print "Error running command /usr/bin/time -l -o $TLOG $CMD 2>&1 > 
/dev/null\n";
  }
}


my $ntrials = 10;
my $cmd;
my %opts;

getopts('n:',\%opts);

$ntrials = $opts{'n'} if (defined $opts{'n'});
$cmd = join(" ",@ARGV);
if (!defined ($cmd)) {
  &usage();
}

print "#h real user sys ru_maxrss ru_ixrss ru_idrss ru_isrss ru_minflt 
ru_majflt ru_nswap ru_inblock ru_oublock ru_msgsnd ru_msgrcv ru_nsignals 
ru_nvcsw ru_nivcsw\n";

for (my $i = 0; $i < $ntrials; $i++) {
  print &getrusage("$cmd");
}

print "# $cmd\n"
-----------------------------------------

Eg: 
$ bench.pl tar tzvf somearchive.tgz 
#h real user sys ru_maxrss ru_ixrss ru_idrss ru_isrss ru_minflt ru_majflt 
ru_nswap ru_inblock ru_oublock ru_msgsnd ru_msgrcv ru_nsignals ru_nvcsw 
ru_nivcsw
0.72 0.63 0.09 576 92 365 126 130 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1800 907
0.72 0.64 0.08 576 94 362 128 130 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1801 906
0.72 0.62 0.10 576 96 359 129 130 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1801 907
0.72 0.69 0.03 576 97 348 129 130 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1801 908
0.72 0.65 0.08 576 96 367 132 130 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1801 909
0.72 0.65 0.07 576 95 363 129 130 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1800 907
0.72 0.67 0.05 576 96 370 130 130 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1801 906
0.73 0.67 0.07 576 93 355 126 130 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1801 907
0.72 0.65 0.07 576 94 358 128 130 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1801 908
0.72 0.62 0.10 576 96 370 130 130 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1764 909
# bench.pl tar tzvf somearchive.tgz

---
You can then run this output through any of the programs in JDB mentioned by 
Lars. Eg to get mean, std. dev, etc. over user time (the second column): 

$ bench.pl tar tzvf somearchive.tgz | dbstats user | dblistize
#L mean stddev pct_rsd conf_range conf_low conf_high conf_pct sum sum_squared 
min
max n
mean:        0.648
stddev:      0.026162
pct_rsd:     4.0373
conf_range:  0.018714
conf_low:    0.62929
conf_high:   0.66671
conf_pct:    0.95
sum:         6.48
sum_squared: 4.2052
min:         0.6
max:         0.7
n:           10

# bench.pl tar tzvf somearchive.tgz
#  | dbstats user
#               0.95 confidence intervals assume normal distribution and 
small n.
#  | dblistize


--------

-Amit

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Jun  7 22:52:27 2002
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Subject: Re: Getting PXE to leave an existing partition alone
From: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
To: Jason Noble <jnoble@perlwizard.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Sat, 2002-06-08 at 06:26, Jason Noble wrote:
> /virtual partition line and it will not newfs the drive.  The following
> line does not work (i.e. all the data on /virtual goes bye bye):
> 
> mlxd0s1-5=ufs 0 /virtual N
> 
> Has anyone used pxe to upgrade a system and leave one or more existing
> FreeBSD partitions alone?  How should I go about this?

I had a quick look through the code and it seems you need to specify
soft-update-ness if you want to also specify newfs'ing or not.

eg try..
mlxd00s1-5=ufs /virtual 1 N

See line 1378 of label.c in src/release/sysinstall.

Hope that helps :)

-- 
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum
GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140  AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Jun  8  2:27:22 2002
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On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Frank Mayhar wrote:

> I see very common short-term hangs, a few seconds to less than a minute.
> The mouse and keyboard stop responding, X stops updating and everything
> just pauses, the whole system (including the network).  It then starts

i've seen this happen on an Asus 1400R 1U rackmount server, P3 1Ghz, dual
intel etherexpress pro (fxp devices), 4GB RAM. thru trial and error i
tracked it down to apm causing it. disabling apm has not shown a
recurrence of the hang. however in my case, when it hung, everything froze
except the box still responded to pings. telnet, ssh or any other network
service wasnt responding however, just icmp.

Regards,                           /\_/\   "All dogs go to heaven."
dinesh@alphaque.com                (0 0)    http://www.alphaque.com/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Jun  8  8:53: 4 2002
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Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 08:52:16 -0700
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Subject: Re: Numerous hard hangs on TWO different ASUS P4T-E w/P4 1.6G
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Dinesh Nair wrote:
>>I see very common short-term hangs, a few seconds to less than a minute.
>>The mouse and keyboard stop responding, X stops updating and everything
>>just pauses, the whole system (including the network).  It then starts
> 
> i've seen this happen on an Asus 1400R 1U rackmount server, P3 1Ghz, dual
> intel etherexpress pro (fxp devices), 4GB RAM. thru trial and error i
> tracked it down to apm causing it. 

I can't disable apm in the BIOS (doesn't have an option for it) but it's 
not enabled in the kernel - we were getting spurious signal 11's with 
apm on SMP machines several years ago, and the mailing list consensus 
back then was "apm is not for SMP".

So either it's something else, or my BIOS is lacking an option.

Lars
-- 
Lars Eggert <larse@isi.edu>           USC Information Sciences Institute

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Jun  8 14:41: 9 2002
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 14:41:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: NITIN BAHADUR <nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com>
Subject: kernel crash in nfs code...
To: hackers@freebsd.org
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Hi,
   I recently had 3 kernel crashes on 2 different
machines in the same place. The machines have 3 GB
memory (but MAXMEM is set to 1 GB in kernel config
file). The machines are running freeBSD 4.4, Sept 16th
build. Enlcosed is the trace of the crash...

#0  dumpsys () at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:473
#1  0xc01bcc33 in boot (howto=256) at
../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:313
#2  0xc01bd000 in poweroff_wait (junk=0xc03b252c,
howto=-1069866929)
    at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:581
#3  0xc0343a52 in trap_fatal (frame=0xf1782c5c,
eva=2714115144)
    at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:956
#4  0xc0343725 in trap_pfault (frame=0xf1782c5c,
usermode=0, eva=2714115144)
    at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:849
#5  0xc03432e3 in trap (frame={tf_fs = -208928752,
tf_es = 16, tf_ds = 16, 
      tf_edi = -243782356, tf_esi = -304356480, tf_ebp
= -243782448, 
      tf_isp = -243782520, tf_ebx = -1011973632,
tf_edx = -208871772, 
      tf_ecx = -304356480, tf_eax = -1580852480,
tf_trapno = 12, tf_err = 0, 
      tf_eip = -1071153738, tf_cs = 8, tf_eflags =
66194, 
      tf_esp = -1011973632, tf_ss = -304356480}) at
../../i386/i386/trap.c:448
#6  0xc0277db6 in nfs_removerpc (dvp=0xf38cdea4,
name=0xc3ae820c "", 
    namelen=1, cred=0x0, proc=0x0) at
../../nfs/nfs_vnops.c:1643
#7  0xc0277d9d in nfs_removeit (sp=0xc3ae8200) at
../../nfs/nfs_vnops.c:1622
#8  0xc024cd14 in nfs_inactive (ap=0xf1782d2c) at
../../nfs/nfs_node.c:245
#9  0xc01ea442 in vput (vp=0xf38ccc80) at
vnode_if.h:815
#10 0xc01e871a in lookup (ndp=0xf1782ecc) at
../../kern/vfs_lookup.c:588
#11 0xc01e7ef8 in namei (ndp=0xf1782ecc) at
../../kern/vfs_lookup.c:153
#12 0xc01f0ac3 in vn_open (ndp=0xf1782ecc, fmode=1,
cmode=0)
    at ../../kern/vfs_vnops.c:137
---Type <return> to continue, or q <return> to quit---
#13 0xc01eca44 in open (p=0xeddbe380, uap=0xf1782f80)
    at ../../kern/vfs_syscalls.c:996
#14 0xc0343cfd in syscall2 (frame={tf_fs = 135266351,
tf_es = 47, 
      tf_ds = -1079836625, tf_edi = 4, tf_esi =
673140944, 
      tf_ebp = -1079901748, tf_isp = -243781676,
tf_ebx = 673058916, 
      tf_edx = 0, tf_ecx = 10, tf_eax = 5, tf_trapno =
22, tf_err = 2, 
      tf_eip = 672961720, tf_cs = 31, tf_eflags = 659,
tf_esp = -1079901792, 
      tf_ss = 47}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:1155
#15 0xc0334115 in Xint0x80_syscall ()


MESSAGE LOG
-----------
    
  Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode
Jun  7 05:05:49 10_10_101_102 /kernel: fault virtual
address  = 0xa1c61c48
Jun  7 05:05:49 10_10_101_102 /kernel: fault code     
       = supervisor read, page not present   
Jun  7 05:05:49 10_10_101_102 /kernel: instruction
pointer    = 0x8:0xc0277db6
Jun  7 05:05:49 10_10_101_102 /kernel: stack pointer  
       = 0x10:0xf1782c9c
Jun  7 05:05:49 10_10_101_102 /kernel: frame pointer  
       = 0x10:0xf1782cd0
Jun  7 05:05:49 10_10_101_102 /kernel: code segment   
       = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b  
Jun  7 05:05:49 10_10_101_102 /kernel: = DPL 0, pres
1, def32 1, gran 1
Jun  7 05:05:49 10_10_101_102 /kernel: processor
eflags       = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 
Jun  7 05:05:49 10_10_101_102 /kernel: current process
               = 784 (lpfsd)
Jun  7 05:05:49 10_10_101_102 /kernel: interrupt mask 
       = none
Jun  7 05:05:49 10_10_101_102 /kernel: trap number    
       = 12
Jun  7 05:05:49 10_10_101_102 /kernel: panic: page
fault
 Uptime: 7m6s

  I was looking at the core and it the dvp->v_mount
field in frame 6 is corrupted. Haven't seen this b4,
but its quite puzzling to see 3 crashes. Also, the
uptime shows that it happened very quicky.

any ideas whats goin on here ??

thanks
nitin

PS: please cc: me on this as I am not in the mailing
list.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Jun  8 18:54:50 2002
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Subject: a hopefully simple question
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Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 19:54:48 -0600
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Sorry if I'm asking on the wrong list, but
would someone  please write a simple program
to do something like:
beep 200 300
which would make a 200 hz tone  for 300 ms?
or at least tell me where to look for the information i need?

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Jun  8 19: 0:19 2002
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To: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@FreeBSD.org>
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On Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 04:17:54AM +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
> The idea was resting at the back of my mind, and tonight I hacked this
> Perl script that seems to mostly do what I want, when I pipe a single

There's is also the `cvsmail' port that does that.

    :0 bf
    * ^Sender:.*owner-(freebsd-)?cvs-(committers|all)@.*FreeBSD.ORG
    | cvsmail

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Jun  8 19: 2:45 2002
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Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 21:02:40 -0500
From: Dan Nelson <dnelson@allantgroup.com>
To: tyler spivey <tspivey8@telus.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: a hopefully simple question
Message-ID: <20020609020240.GH71193@dan.emsphone.com>
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In the last episode (Jun 08), tyler spivey said:
> Sorry if I'm asking on the wrong list, but
> would someone  please write a simple program
> to do something like:
> beep 200 300
> which would make a 200 hz tone  for 300 ms?
> or at least tell me where to look for the information i need?

man speaker
man spkrtest

-- 
	Dan Nelson
	dnelson@allantgroup.com

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Jun  8 19: 5:39 2002
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Cc: Jos Backus <jos@catnook.com>,
	Julian Elischer <julian@elischer.org>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Improving GNU make compatibility in BSD make (+ patch)
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On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 11:46:03PM -0500, Dan Nelson wrote:
> Automake avoids the issue entirely by simply listing the dependencies
> itself, so
> 
> > envuidgid: envuidgid.o
> > 	$(CC) $(LDFLAGS) -o $@ $^
> 
> becomes
> 
> > 	$(CC) $(LDFLAGS) -o $@ envuidgid.o

This is not always possible.  If you have a VPATH, then you need make(1)
to expand $^ to the full path it used to find the dependancy.

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Jun  8 19: 7:33 2002
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Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 19:07:29 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien@freebsd.org>
To: Jos Backus <jos@catnook.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Improving GNU make compatibility in BSD make (+ patch)
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On Thu, May 30, 2002 at 07:42:28PM -0700, Jos Backus wrote:
> The GNU make info file says:
> 
> `$^'
>      The names of all the prerequisites, with spaces between them.  For
>      prerequisites which are archive members, only the member named is
>      used (*note Archives::).  A target has only one prerequisite on
>      each other file it depends on, no matter how many times each file
>      is listed as a prerequisite.  So if you list a prerequisite more
>      than once for a target, the value of `$^' contains just one copy
>      of the name.

I tried to add support for this a while back, but never got it working
right.  Nor did Will who worked on our make file a while.  I'll have to
see if your patch does everything $^ should do.

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Jun  8 20: 1:18 2002
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Hi all,

(pls Cc: me on any response, not subscribed to either list)

Can't find any references to this in the archives. 

What's the status of MIB support for network interfaces in FreeBSD? Is it 
deprecated, optional, "would be nice"?

Reason for asking is that a dockapp I use has stopped displaying real-time 
stats since a recent upgrade. This is because the author has switched to using 
the interface MIB to collect statistics in the latest version[1].

Which in itself seems like a nice approach, except that it doesn't display 
anything for my 802.11 card, or the loopback device.

Digging around a bit with grep (in 4.6-RC) shows that only 3 devices in 
/usr/src/sys/dev seem to have implemented full MIB support, a couple more 
increment error counters, and ~20 more NIC drivers (including most all of my 
NICs)
don't apparently implement any support for MIB-based counters whatsoever[2].

Anyway, should the author of the utility be advised:

a)	Nice approach, little premature

b)	Nice approach, very premature

c)	Wrong approach, revert to previous if you want it to work with FreeBSD

d)	Other?


Also, I'd be interested to know which MIBs we intend to support, and from 
which draft/RFC it's drawn from, if anyone happens to know or can point me at 
some *BSD docs?

TIA.

Regards,

AS

[1] He added FreeBSD support to a previously Solaris/Linux-only app, but 
doesn't apparently have a FreeBSD box to test on himself, asks for feedback on 
his webpage.

[2] It's obviously not entirely that simple, 'coz I can't find any reference 
to the xl driver incrementing mib counters /either/, yet the monitor dockapp
seems to work for the built-in xl device in my laptop...




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Jun  8 20:13:36 2002
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	(envelope-from ler@lerctr.org)
Subject: Re: MIB support for network devices in FreeBSD?
From: Larry Rosenman <ler@lerctr.org>
To: Andy Sparrow <spadger@best.com>
Cc: freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Sat, 2002-06-08 at 22:01, Andy Sparrow wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> (pls Cc: me on any response, not subscribed to either list)
> 
> Can't find any references to this in the archives. 
> 
> What's the status of MIB support for network interfaces in FreeBSD? Is it 
> deprecated, optional, "would be nice"?
> 
> Reason for asking is that a dockapp I use has stopped displaying real-time 
> stats since a recent upgrade. This is because the author has switched to using 
> the interface MIB to collect statistics in the latest version[1].
> 
> Which in itself seems like a nice approach, except that it doesn't display 
> anything for my 802.11 card, or the loopback device.
> 
> Digging around a bit with grep (in 4.6-RC) shows that only 3 devices in 
> /usr/src/sys/dev seem to have implemented full MIB support, a couple more 
> increment error counters, and ~20 more NIC drivers (including most all of my 
> NICs)
> don't apparently implement any support for MIB-based counters whatsoever[2].
> 
> Anyway, should the author of the utility be advised:
> 
> a)	Nice approach, little premature
> 
> b)	Nice approach, very premature
> 
> c)	Wrong approach, revert to previous if you want it to work with FreeBSD
> 
> d)	Other?
> 
> 
> Also, I'd be interested to know which MIBs we intend to support, and from 
> which draft/RFC it's drawn from, if anyone happens to know or can point me at 
> some *BSD docs?
> 
> TIA.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> AS
> 
> [1] He added FreeBSD support to a previously Solaris/Linux-only app, but 
> doesn't apparently have a FreeBSD box to test on himself, asks for feedback on 
> his webpage.
> 
> [2] It's obviously not entirely that simple, 'coz I can't find any reference 
> to the xl driver incrementing mib counters /either/, yet the monitor dockapp
> seems to work for the built-in xl device in my laptop...
> 
> 
> 
I believe you can get this info if you add the net/snmp or net/snmp4
port. 

LER
-- 
Larry Rosenman                     http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 972-414-9812                 E-Mail: ler@lerctr.org
US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Jun  8 20:48:58 2002
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Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 22:48:50 -0500
From: Stephen Montgomery-Smith <stephen@math.missouri.edu>
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I am not sure which is the right mailing list, so sorry about the
cross-posting:

I want to use a lot of memory in my program, so I set the following in
/boot/loader.conf:
kern.maxdsiz=2147483648
kern.maxssiz=2147483648
kern.dfldsiz=2147483648

Then I run this simple program:

#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/time.h>
#include <sys/resource.h>
#include <stdio.h>

int main() {
  struct rlimit rlp;

  getrlimit(RLIMIT_STACK,&rlp);
  fprintf(stderr,"%lld %lld\n",rlp.rlim_cur,rlp.rlim_max);
  rlp.rlim_cur = 512*1024*1024;
  fprintf(stderr,"%lld %lld\n",rlp.rlim_cur,rlp.rlim_max);
  setrlimit(RLIMIT_STACK,&rlp);
  exit(0);
}

and it crashes like this:

2147483648 2147483648
536870912 2147483648
Bus error (core dumped)

Maybe I am expecting too much from the system.  I have a dual Athlon MP
system with about 3G of RAM, and I want to be able to use a good portion
of this RAM in a single process.  But I also want to use linuxthreads so
that I can take advantage of the two processors.  But linuxthreads uses
setrlimit, and crashes in a similar way to my simple program.

I looked at the kernel code in /usr/src/sys/kern/kern_resource.c at the
function dosetrlimit, which I guess is where the action takes place, but
I have no idea what to make of it.




-- 
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
stephen@math.missouri.edu
http://www.math.missouri.edu/~stephen

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Jun  8 20:51:59 2002
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	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: MIB support for network devices in FreeBSD? 
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> I believe you can get this info if you add the net/snmp or net/snmp4
> port. 

Hi Larry,

Thanks for replying.

Hmmm. I'm talking about code that uses a FreeBSD-specific sysctl to 
interrogate the in-kernel if MIB counters, like this:

/* gather stats */
int
freebsd_sysctl_get(struct Devices*dev, unsigned long* ip,
    unsigned long* op, unsigned long* ib, unsigned long* ob)
{
  struct ifmibdata* drvdata = dev->drvdata;
  int datamib[6];
  int len;

  *ip = *op = *ib = *ob = 0;

  datamib[0] = CTL_NET;
  datamib[1] = PF_LINK;
  datamib[2] = NETLINK_GENERIC;
  datamib[3] = IFMIB_IFDATA;
  datamib[4] = 1; /* fill in later */
  datamib[5] = IFDATA_GENERAL;

  datamib[4] = IFMIB_IFCOUNT;

  len = sizeof(struct ifmibdata);

  if(sysctl(datamib, 6, drvdata, &len, NULL, 0) < 0)
    return 1;

  *ip = drvdata->ifmd_data.ifi_ipackets;
  *op = drvdata->ifmd_data.ifi_opackets;
  *ib = drvdata->ifmd_data.ifi_ibytes;
  *ob = drvdata->ifmd_data.ifi_obytes;

  return 0;
}



But these stats don't seem to be collected for at least some network card 
drivers, presumably because those drivers aren't collecting those stats, e.g. 
they don't #include <net/if_mib.h>, and thus don't allocate a mib structure or 
increment any counters in that structure.

I can confirm that it definately doesn't work for the 'wi' and 'lo' drivers...

However, it definately seems to work for the xl driver...

Try this:

	cd /usr/src/sys/dev; find . -exec grep mib {} /dev/null \;

'awi', 'ed' & 'ray' drivers seem to have the most complete implementations, 
but 'fe' & 'xe' seem to have partial implementations (error counters only). 
They're relatively short, so here's one by way of illustration:

./xe/if_xe.c:#include <net/if_mib.h>
./xe/if_xe.c:    scp->ifp->if_linkmib = &scp->mibdata;
./xe/if_xe.c:    scp->ifp->if_linkmiblen = sizeof scp->mibdata;
./xe/if_xe.c:     scp->mibdata.dot3StatsSingleCollisionFrames++;
./xe/if_xe.c:     scp->mibdata.dot3StatsCollFrequencies[0]++;
./xe/if_xe.c:       scp->mibdata.dot3StatsMultipleCollisionFrames++;
./xe/if_xe.c:       scp->mibdata.dot3StatsCollFrequencies[scp->
tx_collisions-1]++;
./xe/if_xe.c:       scp->mibdata.dot3StatsMultipleCollisionFrames += sent;
./xe/if_xe.c:      scp->mibdata.dot3StatsExcessiveCollisions++;
./xe/if_xe.c:      scp->mibdata.dot3StatsMultipleCollisionFrames++;
./xe/if_xe.c:      scp->mibdata.dot3StatsCollFrequencies[15]++;
./xe/if_xe.c:     scp->mibData.dot3StatsMissedFrames++;
./xe/if_xe.c:   scp->mibdata.dot3StatsFrameTooLongs++;
./xe/if_xe.c:   scp->mibdata.dot3StatsFCSErrors++;
./xe/if_xe.c:   scp->mibdata.dot3StatsAlignmentErrors++;
./xe/if_xe.c:      scp->mibdata.dot3StatsInternalMacReceiveErrors++;
./xe/if_xevar.h:  struct ifmib_iso_8802_3 mibdata;


However, most of the drivers don't seem to have any code like this in them - 
and at least some of those drivers don't work with the 3rd-party application 
code above.

Should they? Or is this an older interface?

I'd like to advise the author so he can fix a very useful dockapp for me - or, 
if this is the way to go, I'll badger Bill Paul to fix the 'wi' driver - oh, 
wait a moment, maybe generating patches would be safer :)


Regards,

AS



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Jun  8 20:58:48 2002
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Subject: Re: MIB support for network devices in FreeBSD?
From: Larry Rosenman <ler@lerctr.org>
To: Andy Sparrow <spadger@best.com>
Cc: freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Sat, 2002-06-08 at 22:51, Andy Sparrow wrote:
> 
> > I believe you can get this info if you add the net/snmp or net/snmp4
> > port. 
> 
> Hi Larry,
> 
> Thanks for replying.
> 
> Hmmm. I'm talking about code that uses a FreeBSD-specific sysctl to 
> interrogate the in-kernel if MIB counters, like this:
>
[snip]
> 
> However, most of the drivers don't seem to have any code like this in them - 
> and at least some of those drivers don't work with the 3rd-party application 
> code above.
Hmm.  I'm not a network developer, and have even less knowledge of
what's going on in the interfaces stuff.  


> 
> Should they? Or is this an older interface?
Haven't the foggiest.  Have you looked in -CURRENT to see if it's
different there?  (and if so, see if it's planned to MFC it?)
> 
> I'd like to advise the author so he can fix a very useful dockapp for me - or, 
> if this is the way to go, I'll badger Bill Paul to fix the 'wi' driver - oh, 
> wait a moment, maybe generating patches would be safer :)
Probably Patches would work better, if their not in -CURRENT yet.  But,
I'm just a luser here.  

LER

-- 
Larry Rosenman                     http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 972-414-9812                 E-Mail: ler@lerctr.org
US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Jun  8 22:31:32 2002
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Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 22:30:28 -0700
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Andy Sparrow wrote:
> But these stats don't seem to be collected for at least some network card
> drivers, presumably because those drivers aren't collecting those stats, e.g.
> they don't #include <net/if_mib.h>, and thus don't allocate a mib structure or
> increment any counters in that structure.
> 
> I can confirm that it definately doesn't work for the 'wi' and 'lo' drivers...
> 
> However, it definately seems to work for the xl driver...

Benchmark the driver.

If it's fast, it doesn't collect the statistics.

Just like "WITNESS": if your machine is fast, "WITNESS" is disabled.

8-).

Bascially, most of these statistics are "manager fluff" (as opposed
to "seat cushion fluuf" or "pocket fluff").

What you want is statistics that are managed universally; see
"netstat -ibdt" for the usefult statistics kept per interface.

-- Terry

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