From owner-freebsd-libh Sun Mar 31 18: 5:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from w250.z064001178.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net (w250.z064001178.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.178.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B14B237B41B for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 33995 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Apr 2002 02:06:00 -0000 Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:05:38 -0801 From: Jos Backus To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Subject: Qt-Console Message-ID: <20020401020600.GB68145@lizzy.catnook.com> Reply-To: Jos Backus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just saw this on /.: http://qtconsole.nl.linux.org/ Would this make a text mode installer using libh easier? -- Jos Backus _/ _/_/_/ Santa Clara, CA _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ josb@cncdsl.com _/_/ _/_/_/ use Std::Disclaimer; To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Sun Mar 31 18: 8:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from mail.viasoft.com.cn (ip-167-164-97-218.anlai.com [218.97.164.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1895A37B405 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:08:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from davidwnt (davidwnt.viasoft.com.cn [192.168.1.239]) by mail.viasoft.com.cn (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA08551; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:20:57 +0800 Message-ID: <003901c1d921$dc3d2f30$ef01a8c0@davidwnt> From: "David Xu" To: "Jos Backus" , References: <20020401020600.GB68145@lizzy.catnook.com> Subject: Re: Qt-Console Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:06:39 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It is a April Fools :)"=20 -- David Xu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jos Backus" To: Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 10:06 AM Subject: Qt-Console > Just saw this on /.: >=20 > http://qtconsole.nl.linux.org/ >=20 > Would this make a text mode installer using libh easier? >=20 > --=20 > Jos Backus _/ _/_/_/ Santa Clara, CA > _/ _/ _/ > _/ _/_/_/ =20 > _/ _/ _/ _/ > josb@cncdsl.com _/_/ _/_/_/ use Std::Disclaimer; >=20 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Sun Mar 31 18:13:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from w250.z064001178.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net (w250.z064001178.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.178.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B98437B417 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 34511 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Apr 2002 02:13:38 -0000 Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:13:16 -0800 From: Jos Backus To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Qt-Console Message-ID: <20020401021338.GC68145@lizzy.catnook.com> Reply-To: Jos Backus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yeah, I just realized that :-/ But wouldn't it be great if it were true? -- Jos Backus _/ _/_/_/ Santa Clara, CA _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ josb@cncdsl.com _/_/ _/_/_/ use Std::Disclaimer; To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Sun Mar 31 20:20:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A4037B419 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.freebsd.org (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g314JX320414; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:19:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.freebsd.org) To: Jos Backus Cc: freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Qt-Console In-Reply-To: Message from Jos Backus of "Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:05:38 -0801." <20020401020600.GB68145@lizzy.catnook.com> Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:19:33 -0800 Message-ID: <20410.1017634773@winston.freebsd.org> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I could certainly see this as being very useful for the fabled but never really seriously considered "graphics console" installer. You still need Turbovision for "pure text", e.g. remote installs or installs from serial consoles, and this would add "graphical console" install in between that and "full X Window Server available" install. - Jordan > Just saw this on /.: > > http://qtconsole.nl.linux.org/ > > Would this make a text mode installer using libh easier? > > -- > Jos Backus _/ _/_/_/ Santa Clara, CA > _/ _/ _/ > _/ _/_/_/ > _/ _/ _/ _/ > josb@cncdsl.com _/_/ _/_/_/ use Std::Disclaimer; > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Sun Mar 31 20:21: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EB737B41E for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:21:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.freebsd.org (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g314KT320433; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:20:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.freebsd.org) To: "David Xu" Cc: "Jos Backus" , freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Qt-Console In-Reply-To: Message from "David Xu" of "Mon, 01 Apr 2002 10:06:39 +0800." <003901c1d921$dc3d2f30$ef01a8c0@davidwnt> Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:20:29 -0800 Message-ID: <20430.1017634829@winston.freebsd.org> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I don't think so. The project dates back for months before April 1st. > It is a April Fools :)" > > -- > David Xu > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jos Backus" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 10:06 AM > Subject: Qt-Console > > > > Just saw this on /.: > > > > http://qtconsole.nl.linux.org/ > > > > Would this make a text mode installer using libh easier? > > > > -- > > Jos Backus _/ _/_/_/ Santa Clara, CA > > _/ _/ _/ > > _/ _/_/_/ > > _/ _/ _/ _/ > > josb@cncdsl.com _/_/ _/_/_/ use Std::Disclaimer; > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Mon Apr 1 0:20:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from mail.viasoft.com.cn (ip-167-164-97-218.anlai.com [218.97.164.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB2E37B417 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:20:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from davidwnt (davidwnt.viasoft.com.cn [192.168.1.239]) by mail.viasoft.com.cn (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA09820; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:32:07 +0800 Message-ID: <002501c1d955$b871fc50$ef01a8c0@davidwnt> From: "David Xu" To: "Jordan Hubbard" Cc: "Jos Backus" , References: <20430.1017634829@winston.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Qt-Console Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:17:51 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I havn't seen they have released source code. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jordan Hubbard" To: "David Xu" Cc: "Jos Backus" ; Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 12:20 PM Subject: Re: Qt-Console=20 > I don't think so. The project dates back for months before April 1st. >=20 > > It is a April Fools :)"=20 > >=20 > > -- > > David Xu > >=20 > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > From: "Jos Backus" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 10:06 AM > > Subject: Qt-Console > >=20 > >=20 > > > Just saw this on /.: > > >=20 > > > http://qtconsole.nl.linux.org/ > > >=20 > > > Would this make a text mode installer using libh easier? > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > Jos Backus _/ _/_/_/ Santa Clara, CA > > > _/ _/ _/ > > > _/ _/_/_/ =20 > > > _/ _/ _/ _/ > > > josb@cncdsl.com _/_/ _/_/_/ use Std::Disclaimer; > > >=20 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Mon Apr 1 1:36:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from arthur.nitro.dk (213.237.101.114.adsl.kh.worldonline.dk [213.237.101.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 14BBF37B41B for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 01:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5891 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Apr 2002 09:36:41 -0000 Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:36:41 +0200 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Qt-Console Message-ID: <20020401093640.GB214@nitro.dk> References: <003901c1d921$dc3d2f30$ef01a8c0@davidwnt> <20430.1017634829@winston.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20430.1017634829@winston.freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2002.03.31 20:20:29 +0000, Jordan Hubbard wrote: Well : [simon@arthur:bin] ./qtconsole Hello, World! It is April Fools :) Soo... :) > I don't think so. The project dates back for months before April 1st. > > It is a April Fools :)" -- Simon L. Nielsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Thu Apr 4 9:55: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts15.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 885FC37B4A9; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:54:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.191.9]) by tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20020404175448.HUQB24482.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:54:48 -0500 Received: from lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.4]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 458811AB2; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:53:43 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:53:43 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: Libh , Alexander Langer , jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: repo copy request Message-ID: <20020404175343.GA279@lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mail-Followup-To: The Anarcat , Libh , Alexander Langer , jkh@freebsd.org References: <20020215043625.GA1342@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020215043625.GA1342@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu Feb 14, 2002 at 11:36:26PM -0500, The Anarcat wrote: > Hi. >=20 > I need a repo-copy of release/console.tcl and release/console_init.tcl > to release/console/.=20 >=20 > The reason behind this is that we now have a generic way to iterate > through the release/* directories and anyways, the console should have > its own directory, it does not belong to release/ itself. >=20 > Thank you, >=20 > A. Ok. I ignore who did the repo-copy, but maybe it wasn't such a good idea. It broke the misc/libh port build because it seems the permissions on the release/console/ directory are broken, as reported by someone else on this list: cvs server: failed to create lock directory for `/home/libh/cvs/libh/releas= e/console' (/home/libh/cvs/libh/release/console/#cvs.lock): Permission deni= ed Anyone who did that, please drag yourself in the yard and shoot yourself, thank you. ;) A --=20 Stop the bombings. Stop the murders. Anti-war. --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjyskyYACgkQttcWHAnWiGfbXACfT9MELMAZGdTG5VAP5/bOJjtv Fk4An0enMRt4y3oqK0GUM6fvt1hh+yDn =0RIT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Thu Apr 4 10:14:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (fump.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.181.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 073DE37B4DA for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g34IEoY16092; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:14:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:14:50 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: The Anarcat , Libh Subject: Re: repo copy request Message-ID: <20020404201450.A16056@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> References: <20020215043625.GA1342@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20020404175343.GA279@lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="T4sUOijqQbZv57TR" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020404175343.GA279@lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org>; from anarcat@anarcat.dyndns.org on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 12:53:43PM -0500 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Thus spake The Anarcat (anarcat@anarcat.dyndns.org): > Anyone who did that, please drag yourself in the yard and shoot > yourself, thank you. ;) should be fixed. Alex --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org iQEVAwUBPKyYGbRIIUSeqRcRAQEGxwf+LbKQ3sNjP0lLba8i0b7d90kaYjlXRNPy A8AZBBDfkJYAR7+vVkUCwZjb3pUjcibj1lTb/XxiAkrO2OhipsnapzfY3e/z8RuO 59NvAmHcE7VK7+ZMW1lYpR8g1ebdPs8pNRHve6QssIwrkOG2CzCVVuZVj8S9p4sg elwopXm+IFnz99cUDAXtCcQtlSKS6EiB8CFghY2PRIB5fKCYHgEuo/afUil7PvzH SLDDzr6sFfIs+9ufsdwcbe5hRL8t2UfyovEnUEXHRUkvbzcKjUjbZEwHqjDChj+X GJlX78amnWCPln2gr9hM2nD64RRgSYrnu5WBbX0VLEtrS6djz1MyqQ== =cC0c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Thu Apr 4 10:52: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts14.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF7637B41C for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.191.9]) by tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20020404185201.RTSJ21410.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:52:01 -0500 Received: from lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.4]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F3A91AA7; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:51:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:50:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:50:56 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: Alexander Langer Cc: Libh Subject: Re: repo copy request Message-ID: <20020404185056.GC279@lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mail-Followup-To: The Anarcat , Alexander Langer , Libh References: <20020215043625.GA1342@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20020404175343.GA279@lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20020404201450.A16056@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZwgA9U+XZDXt4+m+" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020404201450.A16056@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --ZwgA9U+XZDXt4+m+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu Apr 04, 2002 at 08:14:50PM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake The Anarcat (anarcat@anarcat.dyndns.org): >=20 > > Anyone who did that, please drag yourself in the yard and shoot > > yourself, thank you. ;) >=20 > should be fixed. Thanks alex! A. --ZwgA9U+XZDXt4+m+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjysoI8ACgkQttcWHAnWiGd3CACgh8TIli4NlfGI9te9RLz0yqBp 888AnivjM8IPbpGAsAfwsCsI2KfvgGvl =rYmW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZwgA9U+XZDXt4+m+-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Thu Apr 4 12:35:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts16.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D684637B416; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.191.9]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20020404203508.XYPV27115.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:35:08 -0500 Received: from lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.4]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 315431920; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:33:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:33:56 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: libh@FreeBSD.org, mi@aldan.algebra.com Cc: jhb@FreeBSD.org, imp@village.org, des@ofug.org, pst@pst.org, obrien@FreeBSD.org, cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org, winter@jurai.net, jkh@winston.freebsd.org, rwatson@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.sbin/sysinstall install.c installUpgrade Message-ID: <20020404203356.GG279@lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mail-Followup-To: libh@FreeBSD.org, mi@aldan.algebra.com, jhb@FreeBSD.org, imp@village.org, des@ofug.org, pst@pst.org, obrien@FreeBSD.org, cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org, winter@jurai.net, jkh@winston.freebsd.org, rwatson@FreeBSD.org References: <20020404181423.GB279@lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org> <200204042017.g34KHYnF006405@aldan.algebra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="reI/iBAAp9kzkmX4" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200204042017.g34KHYnF006405@aldan.algebra.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --reI/iBAAp9kzkmX4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu Apr 04, 2002 at 03:17:34PM -0500, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > [Reply-To set] >=20 > On 4 Apr, The Anarcat wrote: >=20 > > Indexed packages might take up more space on a CD, but regardless of > > the network connection, it should speed up package installs a 2-fold > > at least. >=20 > But if that makes them 15% bigger, I think I'd rather wait. 15% increase > of the download time is more than 100% of the extraction time for too > many people. And then you store the 15% bigger archives forever... The problem is that our problem is not *only* with package size but also with the package suite architecture itself. I think having to extract the archive to a temporary location is a problem in limited environments since a given installation will need the size of its biggest installed package free in order to have the installation successful. Arguably, if this is a problem, such installation is doomed to fail on space problems anyways. ;) =20 > > I'm not sure I understand what you mean by seekable. Some network > > connections (HTTP 1.1 and FTP, IIRC) are seekable, ie you can start > > downloading http files at any given location. >=20 > By "seekable" I mean, that the same data can be read multiple times. Ever heard about caching? :) > True, you can do that over the network too, but the net-bandwidth > available to even the most fortunate of us is nowhere close to the local > storage bandwidth. If the file is remote, just cache the read data locally and you're done with bandwidth. > > The problem is with non-seekable (non-indexed would be the proper > > word) archives. For .tgz (or .tbz2), wether you have the seekable file > > or network connection doesn't matter since you must extract the whole > > file in the order to seek individual files in the archive. > > > > Repeat after me: there's no way to access a given individual file in a > > tar(1) archive without extracting the archive up to the given file. >=20 > It is true. ZIP provides _generic_ index, which is good for many. We > can do better by placing the "important" files -- such as the "install" > script -- or "+CONTENTS" at the beginning of the file at the archiving > time... No. That's not better since the whole file still needs to be *read* (note: not seeked) in order to find the file. Bandwidth-wise, indexed archives are better. Storage-wise, non-indexed are better. I think I'll start working on adding .tar support to libh. ;) But I still think we should offer support for network .zip installs. > In fact, I think, that's what happens now, the package tools > just don't rely on that fact... It wouldn't make much of a difference except it might be possible to avoid extracting the archive to a temporary location. =20 > >> What's left are the people, who like to install directly from the > >> network and don't mind redownloading in case of a failure. My > >> guesstimate is those are not big in number and mostly don't care for t= he > >> method chosen one way or the other... > >=20 > > Choosing an index archive format doesn't mean you can't keep a local > > copy, and actually, right now, libh does keep a copy of the .zip > > locally, as a temporary, yes, but that is a simple toggle. >=20 > What I was saying is if you are likely to have the local copy anyway, > it does not matter that much if it is indexed or not -- extraction is > very fast anyway... Again -- indexing saves you time but wastes space. > Some (myself included) think, space is more important. For some others, bandwidth is more important. I think there's an unreconcialable conflict here, and that therefore both notions should be supported. =20 > >> >> And I suspect, those who disagree are simply blinded by their > >> >> blazingly fast connections and fat disks. :-) > >>=20 > >> > No, the fact is that we have thought about some of the problems the > >> > current scheme doesn't address and which you haven't apparently > >> > thought about how to address either. > >>=20 > >> Mmm, sounds familiar :( Can you explain, what those are, or point me to > >> the mail archive, where this was discussed? > >=20 > > I can point you to the libh design document on /projects/libh.html. >=20 > Ok... I just read it. It does not contain anything, that was not > expressed in this thread -- regarding package format that is. Zip is > advocated as the most suitable in there... And I remain convinced, that > the overhead of compressing each file individually (which is what Zip > does) is too much of a price to pay... >=20 > The present pkg_add can read +CONTENTS (or whatever the meta-data > file(s) is(are) going to be named) from the beginning of the tarball and > proceed to extracting from the rest of the file, preferably -- directly > into the right place, or into the temporary directory _on the same > filesystem_, so that the bits can be quickly mv-ed to the right place. That requires reading/downloading the whole archive. Which might not always be necessary in some cases. =20 > The document describes having to extract into a temporary location as > "evil", which is not neccessarily true. If the location is chosen on > the same filesystem as the final destination, there will be enough > space, and there will be very little overhead -- rename(2) is very > quick... Good point. I guess I need to think this over. A. --=20 Jesus died for his own sins. Not mine. (CRASS, 1978) --reI/iBAAp9kzkmX4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjysuLMACgkQttcWHAnWiGcchACdESidNv7gy+osPCm/PdeIXdRu NhQAoIS25tE3yZ/ZZ5011NfMSb4ETLlu =vUp6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --reI/iBAAp9kzkmX4-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Thu Apr 4 21:19:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8678C37B405 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1734CBD06 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12282 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:19:49 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g355K8k32160; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:20:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: libh learning curve, etc. From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 04 Apr 2002 21:20:07 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 36 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Your project seems very important and I thought I'd investigate to see if I wanted to try to help out. But ya'll sure haven't done much to encourage people to help. (And if you do want to discourage people, you ought to be up front about it so people don't waste time finding out the hard way.) I say that for these reasons, mostly having to do with the web page at http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html: -- There are no requirements, specifications, or design documents, etc, other than the old JKH memo, so one expects to have to Read the Source, but nowhere does it say how to find it short of CVS which I (and many others) don't know how to run beyond cvsupping the main repo. -- The port doesn't work (maybe because my ports are a month old). I see that this password problem was reported a couple of weeks ago. -- The CVSWEB tool at freebsd.org has only a few, uninteresting libh files. -- The mailing list archives are mostly mind-numbing commit messages. You probably ought to look at some other Project home pages and borrow a few ideas. I'll probably try the port occasionally and take a look, but as important as I feel your project is, I can't get very enthusiastic for a project which uses QPL/LGPL libraries, TVision with no apparent license (a disclaimer is all I could find), and TCL which few care to learn. But then I'm a C/C++ beginner so you wouldn't get much out of me anyway, beyond some documentation and test reports. I'll probably stick with the -doc project and my own programming exercises. I hope you'll take this as constructive critism; it wasn't meant to hurt feelings, though it probably will. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Fri Apr 5 6:37:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.qc.uunet.ca (mail1.qc.uunet.ca [198.168.54.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F49F37B41C for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 06:37:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from Xtanbul ([216.94.147.34]) by mail1.qc.uunet.ca (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g35EbHj26380; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 09:37:17 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 09:34:19 -0500 Subject: Re: libh learning curve, etc. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) Cc: freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.org To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Antoine Beaupre In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <370BA4FE-48A2-11D6-945B-0050E4A0BB3F@anarcat.ath.cx> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.481) Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Le Vendredi 5 avril 2002, =E0 12:20 , Gary W. Swearingen a =E9crit : > Your project seems very important and I thought I'd investigate to see > if I wanted to try to help out. Welcome to the crowd of bystanders. :) > But ya'll sure haven't done much to encourage people to help. (And if > you do want to discourage people, you ought to be up front about it so > people don't waste time finding out the hard way.) If you ever worked on a already-started project, you would know that=20 it's much harder to document and promote code that's already written. > I say that for these reasons, mostly having to do with the web page at > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html: > > -- There are no requirements, specifications, or design documents, = etc, > other than the old JKH memo, so one expects to have to Read the = Source, > but nowhere does it say how to find it short of CVS which I (and many > others) don't know how to run beyond cvsupping the main repo. The port should make use of CVS a bit easier, but see below. I think it might be a good idea to put a tarball of a port snapshot on=20= the website thought. Alex, Jordan, comments? > -- The port doesn't work (maybe because my ports are a month old). I > see that this password problem was reported a couple of weeks ago. I'm sorry about that. The port's been broken for a while. There's been=20= CVS repo-damage done that inhibited any cvs checkout of the=20 release/console directory. This has been fixed. I've been having problems making a full libh build yesterday because of=20= header file problems in tvision. I'll take a look at it this weekend or next week. In the mean time, you should be able to build the source and build libh=20= without TVision. > -- The CVSWEB tool at freebsd.org has only a few, uninteresting libh > files. That's because libh is not part of the main freebsd CVS repository. > -- The mailing list archives are mostly mind-numbing commit messages. *That's* not constructive. > You probably ought to look at some other Project home pages and borrow > a few ideas. Yeah, i know. The idea I got from Some Other Project was to: 1- get sponsorship 2- get people to work on libh The problem with [1] is that noone seems to be interested in sponsoring=20= a tool so unimportant (!). And the problem with [2] is that we need to=20= work on documentation and design documents, and to get there, we need=20 [2]. > I'll probably try the port occasionally and take a look, but as > important as I feel your project is, I can't get very enthusiastic for = a > project which uses QPL/LGPL libraries, Apart from saying that you won't get any work done on FreeBSD with this=20= attitude (eg. gcc gdb), I won't get into this. > TVision with no apparent license > (a disclaimer is all I could find), and TCL which few care to > learn. Feel free to rewrite libh with a BSD-licensed console and graphical=20 library. As for TCL, "It's Just Another Language". > But then I'm a C/C++ beginner so you wouldn't get much out of me > anyway, beyond some documentation and test reports. You know, this is exactly what we need. And if you really read the=20 mailing lists archive, you'll see this is not the first time I answer=20 this kind of mail by saying: Read The Source, yes. We need=20 documentation, and the only way to do that is to Read The Source and=20 Test The Code. > I'll probably > stick with the -doc project and my own programming exercises. > > I hope you'll take this as constructive critism; it wasn't meant to = hurt > feelings, though it probably will. There was some good criticism, but I'm getting tired of seeing people=20 just pass by the page and say: "Hey, this looks like it needs some help,=20= let's complain to -libh@!". Yes the code is under-documented, yes, we=20= need some solid design documents. Thank you for reminding us. I hope you'll take this as constructive criticism; it wasn't meant to=20 hurt feelings though it probably will. Maybe I'm just ranting and I should shut up as I had the same reaction=20= as you the first time I got interested in libh. A. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Fri Apr 5 8: 7:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from mail17.speakeasy.net (mail17.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C4837B417 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 08:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 22136 invoked from network); 5 Apr 2002 16:06:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail17.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 5 Apr 2002 16:06:09 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g35G6sv32052; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 11:06:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:06:11 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: (Gary W. Swearingen) Subject: RE: libh learning curve, etc. Cc: freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Apr-2002 Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Your project seems very important and I thought I'd investigate to see > if I wanted to try to help out. I'm just going to offer you some background information for you to correct some bogus assumptions you seem to have made. I'm sure you will take this as constructive criticism. :) Most of the libh code (about 30,000 or 50,000 (can't remember which) lines of it) was written by a single Russian programmer as a contract job for Walnut Creek CD-ROM several years ago. This code was not well documented and the current people working on libh have had to try and learn how all this code works so they can finish it up. You can't blame the current people working on libh for the fact that the original guy didn't document his code very well. What this needs is for people like yourself who grok C++ (FreeBSD is largely a collection of C programmers since the OS is in C) to help with looking at the sources to better document what is there and then finish up the work that is still needed. Also, better documentation of the various API's and interfaces would allow someone to be able to write a libh backend for a console graphics interface, a GTK interface, their own text interface, etc. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Fri Apr 5 10:15:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87CF537B404; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:15:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C71BE06; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:15:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19808; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:15:11 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g35IFQG41664; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:15:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: libh learning curve, etc. References: From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 05 Apr 2002 10:15:26 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin writes: > I'm just going to offer you some background information for you to correct some > bogus assumptions you seem to have made. I'm sure you will take this as > constructive criticism. :) I would, but it didn't provide much information I didn't already know from reading the JKH memo and a couple dozen -libh messages (of the non- commit kind). Thanks for the effort, but next time you get my kind of message, I suggest that you spend the few minutes composing something for the web site. My kind of posters are likely to be lost causes, while an improved web site might attract an extra helper or two. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Fri Apr 5 10:30:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from mail16.speakeasy.net (mail16.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39CD437B405 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:30:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2722 invoked from network); 5 Apr 2002 18:30:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail16.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 5 Apr 2002 18:30:13 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g35IUxv32620; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:30:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:30:15 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: (Gary W. Swearingen) Subject: Re: libh learning curve, etc. Cc: freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Apr-2002 Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > John Baldwin writes: > >> I'm just going to offer you some background information for you to correct >> some >> bogus assumptions you seem to have made. I'm sure you will take this as >> constructive criticism. :) > > I would, but it didn't provide much information I didn't already know > from reading the JKH memo and a couple dozen -libh messages (of the non- > commit kind). > > Thanks for the effort, but next time you get my kind of message, I > suggest that you spend the few minutes composing something for the > web site. My kind of posters are likely to be lost causes, while > an improved web site might attract an extra helper or two. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your view) I'm currently spending almost all my time traipsing through the kernel and aside from the time to write an occasionail e-mail while test kernels are compiling I don't have a lot of time to edit web pages. If you would like to take the comments you have been given and offer patches to improve the website that could help though. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Fri Apr 5 10:57:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2782737B41D for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB20BE58; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:56:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01901; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:56:58 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g35IvDr42157; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:57:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Antoine Beaupre Cc: freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: libh learning curve, etc. References: <370BA4FE-48A2-11D6-945B-0050E4A0BB3F@anarcat.ath.cx> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 05 Apr 2002 10:57:13 -0800 In-Reply-To: <370BA4FE-48A2-11D6-945B-0050E4A0BB3F@anarcat.ath.cx> Message-ID: Lines: 79 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Antoine Beaupre writes: > If you ever worked on a already-started project, you would know that > it's much harder to document and promote code that's already written. Nobody expects detailed source code documentation. Almost no free software has that. But some current (and prospective) high-level documents would benefit the project. Of course, I realize that many people join projects for reasons other than the benefit of the project, and I respect that, but it seemed clear that the -libh project was devoting almost none of its time to Public Relations and that sort of thing and very much needed to be "reminded about it" (as you put it). As a former Linux web index maintainer, I've seen a lot of project web sites, and think I have a feel for their importance to the project. (No evidence, but a feel, nonetheless.) For instance, the early GNOME web site was a marvel of good, simple layout, covering all the bases and looking good without being flashy. And I suspect that it was responsible for encouraging the entry of many developers to the project. > I think it might be a good idea to put a tarball of a port snapshot on > the website thought. Good idea. And links to web sites for TVision and TCL and Qt (and to licenses to those and your own). And links to articles like the one JKH did last September for the 5.0 to-do list. People can use Google, like I did, but you should make it easy for them. Google returned 10 pages on "freebsd libh" but there were maybe 5 pages of good value. > > -- The CVSWEB tool at freebsd.org has only a few, uninteresting libh > > files. > > That's because libh is not part of the main freebsd CVS repository. There's a few files there. Enough to waste 10 or 15 minutes figuring it out. You should say on your website what you just told me. > > -- The mailing list archives are mostly mind-numbing commit messages. > > *That's* not constructive. Why not? I can envision a project with a separate list for such notices. > 1- get sponsorship > 2- get people to work on libh > > The problem with [1] is that noone seems to be interested in sponsoring > a tool so unimportant (!). And the problem with [2] is that we need to > work on documentation and design documents, and to get there, we need > [2]. From the looks of the list archives, you have some coders. I just wanted to remind them that you can generate more code by attracting more coders than you can by coding. Of course, personal purposes are a factor and you have to let yourselves spend most of your time doing what benefits yourself, not the project. But hopefully not 99.94% of it. > There was some good criticism, but I'm getting tired of seeing people > just pass by the page and say: "Hey, this looks like it needs some help, > let's complain to -libh@!". Yes the code is under-documented, yes, we > need some solid design documents. Thank you for reminding us. Forget about the code being under-documented. Document at a high level. Turn the JKH memo into a document that at least looks like it reflects the current design. Give people a few diagrams to look at. Etc. > I hope you'll take this as constructive criticism; it wasn't meant to > hurt feelings though it probably will. No hard feelings here; I expected a worse reaction and hesitated to cause it. But thought it worthwhile, even if it does damage my name before I've totally abandoned any plans to join the project. > Maybe I'm just ranting and I should shut up as I had the same reaction > as you the first time I got interested in libh. I'd say the project was very lucky to get someone as willing as you were to work past the reaction and work hard enough to learn whether you wanted to be a part of the project. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Fri Apr 5 12: 5:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from tomts24-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts24.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.187]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ABCE37B417 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 12:05:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.191.9]) by tomts24-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20020405200541.GEV4902.tomts24-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:05:41 -0500 Received: from lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.4]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 535621B22; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:05:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:04:36 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:04:36 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Antoine Beaupre , freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: libh learning curve, etc. Message-ID: <20020405200435.GA284@lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mail-Followup-To: The Anarcat , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Antoine Beaupre , freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.org References: <370BA4FE-48A2-11D6-945B-0050E4A0BB3F@anarcat.ath.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri Apr 05, 2002 at 10:57:13AM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Antoine Beaupre writes: >=20 > > If you ever worked on a already-started project, you would know that > > it's much harder to document and promote code that's already written. >=20 > Nobody expects detailed source code documentation. Almost no free > software has that. But some current (and prospective) high-level > documents would benefit the project. Of course, I realize that many > people join projects for reasons other than the benefit of the project, > and I respect that, but it seemed clear that the -libh project was > devoting almost none of its time to Public Relations and that sort of > thing and very much needed to be "reminded about it" (as you put it). >=20 > As a former Linux web index maintainer, I've seen a lot of project web > sites, and think I have a feel for their importance to the project. > (No evidence, but a feel, nonetheless.) For instance, the early GNOME > web site was a marvel of good, simple layout, covering all the bases > and looking good without being flashy. And I suspect that it was > responsible for encouraging the entry of many developers to the project. It comes back mainly to "just do it". I'm no web designer. I can probably work out some high-level documentation, but I feel that would be re-inventing the wheel. The paper jkh wrote isn't that bad and it sums up how libh is structured. I'm trying to document libh as I go along, but it's not easy. It's especially hard to get a clear view of the whole thing since a lot of things are interdependant in libh. > > I think it might be a good idea to put a tarball of a port snapshot on > > the website thought. >=20 > Good idea. And links to web sites for TVision and TCL and Qt (and to > licenses to those and your own).=20 Will do. > And links to articles like the one JKH > did last September for the 5.0 to-do list. People can use Google, like > I did, but you should make it easy for them. Google returned 10 pages > on "freebsd libh" but there were maybe 5 pages of good value. Google gives me 30 matches, but none useful as projects/libh.html. :) =20 > > > files. > >=20 > > That's because libh is not part of the main freebsd CVS repository. >=20 > There's a few files there. Enough to waste 10 or 15 minutes figuring it > out. You should say on your website what you just told me. It's said on the website: "CVS repository Libh is available through anonymous CVS pserver (empty password): cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@usw4.FreeBSD.org:/home/libh/cvs" There are around 5 files regarding libh on the whole CVS repository: =2E/ports/misc/libh =2E/www/en/projects/libh.sgml,v > > *That's* not constructive. >=20 > Why not? I can envision a project with a separate list for such notices. I guess so. Right now, libh's developpment isn't very fast so I don't think it would be worth it. > > 1- get sponsorship > > 2- get people to work on libh > >=20 > > The problem with [1] is that noone seems to be interested in sponsoring > > a tool so unimportant (!). And the problem with [2] is that we need to > > work on documentation and design documents, and to get there, we need > > [2]. >=20 > From the looks of the list archives, you have some coders. I just > wanted to remind them that you can generate more code by attracting more > coders than you can by coding. Of course, personal purposes are a > factor and you have to let yourselves spend most of your time doing what > benefits yourself, not the project. But hopefully not 99.94% of it. I prefer to get libh working than fight to get people working on libh since people don't usually stay interested very long on libh. ;) > > There was some good criticism, but I'm getting tired of seeing people > > just pass by the page and say: "Hey, this looks like it needs some help, > > let's complain to -libh@!". Yes the code is under-documented, yes, we > > need some solid design documents. Thank you for reminding us. >=20 > Forget about the code being under-documented. Document at a high level. > Turn the JKH memo into a document that at least looks like it reflects > the current design. Give people a few diagrams to look at. Etc.=20 I think it does reflect current design, but I can't tell for sure. I guess I could put some snapshots of the disk editor to get some people drooling. ;) > I'd say the project was very lucky to get someone as willing as you were > to work past the reaction and work hard enough to learn whether you > wanted to be a part of the project. Thank you, A. --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjyuA1MACgkQttcWHAnWiGcpvQCfbXMcTUV+/8xL9S0/pRG9RbtH KGkAn3HrLw+y5Usxh50bfSfbITfSZsh8 =jOJE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Fri Apr 5 12:17:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts22.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E1AE37B417 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 12:17:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.191.9]) by tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20020405201702.ZCJW20183.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org> for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:17:02 -0500 Received: from lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.4]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D7ECE1B22 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:16:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:15:57 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:15:57 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: libh@freebsd.org Subject: changes to the project's webpage Message-ID: <20020405201557.GB284@lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="p4qYPpj5QlsIQJ0K" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --p4qYPpj5QlsIQJ0K Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all. It's spring! And I think now would be a good time to give a good kick in the nuts to the project's webpage. Right now, it's a bit monolithic and not very inviting. As I said earlier, I'm no web designer, but I think we would gain at making some cleanup there. Here is my first shot: 1- Link tvision, qt, and their respective ports to proper web pages: Index: libh.sgml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D RCS file: /home/ncvs/www/en/projects/libh.sgml,v retrieving revision 1.6 diff -u -u -r1.6 libh.sgml --- libh.sgml 16 Mar 2002 08:11:33 -0000 1.6 +++ libh.sgml 5 Apr 2002 20:12:15 -0000 @@ -103,14 +103,20 @@

You'll need the following to run/test libh:

=20
    -
  • TVision port (devel/tvision).
    • -
  • TCL port (any version, I suggest 8.3) (lang/tcl83)
    • -
  • Qt 2 port (currently). Note that you have to install both, - the dynamic as well as the static version (x11-toolkits/qt23 - and x11-toolkits/qt2-static).
    • +
  • TVision + port (devel/tvision).
    • + =20 +
  • TCL port (any + version, I suggest 8.3) (lang/tcl83)
    • + =20 +
  • Qt 2 port + (currently). Note that you have to install both, the dynamic as + well as the static version=20 + (x1= 1-toolkits/qt23 and + x11-toolkits/qt2-static).
=20 -

There is also port of libh available (misc/libh), +

There is also port of libh available (misc/libh), which installs a snapshot of the libraries and TCL scripts. However, it's not for development.

=20 2- include the latest port tarball on the website or link to it. this would imply putting the tarball on the website, or on the ftp site somewhere. This would help people who are not CVS-aware to look at the code, and possibly limit problems created by repo-damage when it occurs. ;) 3- snapshots libh has a diskeditor which could give people a good idea of what the future installer is going to look like. 4- floppy images I know, I haven't finished those yet, but they're underway. ;) A. --p4qYPpj5QlsIQJ0K Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjyuBf0ACgkQttcWHAnWiGe/mACgjFfxEp+9dRJEsC4dJ1KpMetZ 6wMAnR+kye3xQ3YdyY11gZGJSoBzzpjz =6/Qm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --p4qYPpj5QlsIQJ0K-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Fri Apr 5 13:17:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts9.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D6A37B41F for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:17:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.191.9]) by tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20020405211742.EOFD15905.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org> for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:17:42 -0500 Received: from lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.4]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 70A2B1B22 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:17:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:16:38 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:16:38 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: libh@freebsd.org Subject: dldialog: tvision/qt wrapper Message-ID: <20020405211638.GC284@lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="B4IIlcmfBL/1gGOG" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --B4IIlcmfBL/1gGOG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi I just found this package out. It seems to wrap some of our HUI library functionalities. http://parzelle.de/Linux/Applications/dldialog/ I wonder if it would be a good idea to switch from our Hui to dldialog. We would profit from the maintenance of the project and it would be a good thing to isolate hui from the rest of libh's subsystems. Just FYI A. --B4IIlcmfBL/1gGOG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjyuFDUACgkQttcWHAnWiGd4/gCfdyssngTnXyzt7CIWl1ULiZRZ 3F4AoJCDWnErid1Z0Bf2/1lQkc9O4+gT =QbV+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --B4IIlcmfBL/1gGOG-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Fri Apr 5 15:28:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A800D37B416 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.freebsd.org (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g35NRq335385; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:27:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.freebsd.org) To: The Anarcat Cc: libh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dldialog: tvision/qt wrapper In-Reply-To: Message from The Anarcat of "Fri, 05 Apr 2002 16:16:38 EST." <20020405211638.GC284@lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org> Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:27:52 -0800 Message-ID: <35380.1018049272@winston.freebsd.org> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think this is certainly worth looking at, but deciding whether or not to replace the Hui API with it would require far deeper inspection of it. Is programming in dldialog's scripting language preferable to Hui's C/C++ and Tcl APIs? Is dldialog's UI element selection comparable to Hui's? Etc etc. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Fri Apr 5 16:45:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts14.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D04BA37B404 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 16:45:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.191.9]) by tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20020406004551.BAWD21410.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 19:45:51 -0500 Received: from lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.4]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 731AA18E1; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 19:45:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 5 Apr 2002 19:44:47 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 19:44:46 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: libh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dldialog: tvision/qt wrapper Message-ID: <20020406004446.GA319@lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <20020405211638.GC284@lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org> <35380.1018049272@winston.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <35380.1018049272@winston.freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri Apr 05, 2002 at 03:27:52PM -0800, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > I think this is certainly worth looking at, but deciding whether or > not to replace the Hui API with it would require far deeper inspection=20 > of it.=20 Yes, of course. Anyways, if hui is working fine, why scrap it? ;) I don't think there's a port of dldialog anyways. I'm probably going to make one to test it anyways. > Is programming in dldialog's scripting language preferable to Hui's > C/C++ and Tcl APIs?=20 Probably not, but the whole thing is written in C++, and there is a tcl-like language interface to create the dialogs. It's probably not preferable to our tcl language interface, but the way I saw it, we should integrate the C++ classes to our API and create a .cd.cc interface to the classes. We probably don't have to use the dldialog language interface. > Is dldialog's UI element selection comparable to Hui's?=20 I think it's actually better or comparable. There are 2 snapshots on the page that represent basically all of Hui's functionalities. > Etc etc. I think the main advantage is that we have more people working on the code. This is helpful to fix bugs and could even create interest in libh. ;) I think one other interesting thing is that it forces us to seperate libh's libraries from one another, thing which is not obvious right now. A. --=20 Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime IS death. --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjyuRP4ACgkQttcWHAnWiGfVPwCfTqsaUKxVb+O7TGaDTv6WlmBo UkIAoJFkfNdMiEVlNBsphsTbyMi6JyHl =pyLM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Sat Apr 6 9:50:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts22.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C09737B417 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.191.9]) by tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20020406175038.YMMF20183.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org> for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 12:50:38 -0500 Received: from anarcat.dyndns.org (lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.4]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419C61920 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 12:50:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3CAF3523.2070801@anarcat.dyndns.org> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 12:49:23 -0500 From: The Anarcat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020311 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: libh@freebsd.org Subject: code documentation systems (listing phase) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi. Since I think the libh project needs to get a fresh kick in the documentation part, I've started to examine the possible systems available in the ports collection and in the links I found on the various sites connected there. I see this as a 3 phase process: [1] listing of possible systems [2] testing [3] choosing the system [4] documenting libh Right now, this mail is (1) the listing phase. I'll get to (2) testing shortly. Then I'll suggest a (3) chosen system. (4) Documenting libh would imply plugging various makefiles rules to allow easy re-creation of libh documentation. I thought of creating a seperate branch for this process so that we can easily turn around if we find out it's a wrong way of doing things. Merging the branches once the documentation system is in place should be easy since it will touch only comments and not code. Commits to comments & doc should be directed to the doc branch and code commits to the main. This documentation could then be published on the website. This might be a problem though, since libh's project page is auto-generated itself using sgml files. Would it be possible to plug libh's documentation build in the webpage's? I hope so. So here are my results. I'll start by providing a listing of the systems and the short description of each (taken pkg-comment, where available). I then note some comments taken from the site's respective propaganda machines and some personal evaluation and critics on the system. Note that I haven't tried any of these. I'll start testing those later on but I want to get the pulse of the list wrt these tools. Most of these tools are available as ports in devel/. 1- ccdoc: Extracting comments from C++ source and generating HTML WWW: http://www.joelinoff.com/ccdoc/ Looks interesting. Simple yet powerful: needs no setup to run. Can grok javadoc-like syntax. Generates HTML. Source distro 200K. 2- cxref: C program cross-referencing & documentation tool WWW: http://www.gedanken.demon.co.uk/cxref/ No C++ support, so we can already forget this one. 3- doc++: Javadoc style C++ documentatation system WWW: http://docpp.sourceforge.net/ Supports cross references, latex and html, automatic callgraph generation as Java applets for HTML (which might be a problem). I don't think we should use this one since it creates the html graphs as applets. I haven't tested the applets so I can't say how powerful they are, but that's because the java plugin doesn't work in my mozilla here. ;) Source distro 300K. 4- doxygen: A documentation system for C and C++ WWW: http://www.stack.nl/~dimitri/doxygen/ Reknown. My system of choice. Generates latex and html but also nroff, linked pdf, compressed html, postscript, and rtf. Can generate doc on undocumented systems. Automatic dependency, inheritences and collaboration graphs generation. Uses Qt for platform abstraction and has a GUI wizard. Can use dot(1) from AT&T's graphics/graphviz for more advanced graphs Source distro 2Mb. 5- understand_c: Understand can parse a C/C++ project helping reverse engineer it *needs a license* documents large projects with hierarchies and various trees, cross-refs. Seems it could be useful in figuring out what went through Eugene's head when he coded libh. :) I don't think this would be useful as a documentation system, but more an exploration system. 6- scandoc: A C/C++ documentation generator http://scandoc.sourceforge.net/ I can't browse the example doc with mozilla. Seems to support javadoc-style commenting. Seem to be poor compared to the others. 7- robodoc: Code reference program similar to cxref that produces HTML Supports a lot of languages (Assembler, C, Perl, LISP, Occam, Tcl/Tk, Pascal, Fortran, shell scripts, and COBOL, basically any language that supports comments/remarks) and outputs (HTML, ASCII, AmigaGuide, LaTeX, or RTF format) Doesn't seem to generate graphs, Its support for a lot of language makes it less powerful at parsing a particular language. It's interesting to see there's support for Tcl, but since most of libh's internals are written in C++, I don't think it would be so useful. 8- synopsis: http://synopsis.sourceforge.net/ scalable, multiple language support, multiple parser support multiple format support. can generate inheritence graphs and trees, but not as cute as doxygen's :) In summary, I'd like to get a clear cut at which is the best, but it's probably not possible. I guess we could use doxygen. It seems really powerful and flexible and could withstand libh's complexity. I'll try the various tools on the libh tree to see how they behave. A. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Sat Apr 6 9:57:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts11.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C437A37B41A for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:57:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.191.9]) by tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20020406175717.LLKX10141.tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org> for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 12:57:17 -0500 Received: from anarcat.dyndns.org (lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.4]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677201920 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 12:56:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3CAF36A9.1020309@anarcat.dyndns.org> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 12:55:53 -0500 From: The Anarcat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.9) Gecko/20020311 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: libh@freebsd.org Subject: branch & tagging policy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi. I would like to know what would be our branching and tagging policy, if we have any. In particular, in the case of the documentation system, I'd like to create a specific branch for the exploration of various documentation systems. Also, I think it could be a good idea to tag libh's source with the port's version. This would allow us to use real tags in the ports Makefile instead of choosing arbitrary dates. We would also gain from classic release strategies by creating milestones of what we want to accomplish. I'm not really familiar with CVS branches and tags, but as usual, i'll get around it and figure it out, if necessary. :) A. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-libh Sat Apr 6 19:33:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-libh@freebsd.org Received: from tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts19.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABBA437B417; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 19:33:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.186.97]) by tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20020407033332.JTDY19941.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 22:33:32 -0500 Received: from lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.4]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A95419BC; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 22:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sat, 6 Apr 2002 22:32:25 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 22:32:25 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: libh@freebsd.org Subject: usw4.freebsd.org failures Message-ID: <20020407033225.GA88952@lenny.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Just FYI, I'm having problems using usw4's cvs repository. Most operations fail with: fork failed Resource temporarily unavailable I don't know what's going on. A. --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjyvvckACgkQttcWHAnWiGdSPACdGzsj+jeJKlemgnK+kLPg+GYy f0gAmQEiOddREEG5/BjAXFzW3TBJ21gT =LgIB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-libh" in the body of the message