From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Dec 22 0:10:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD3437B401; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from nezlok.unixathome.org (nezlok.unixathome.org [216.187.87.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5863343EDC; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:10:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@nezlok.unixathome.org) Received: by nezlok.unixathome.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A9439AE49F; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:10:02 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Langille To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: The FreeBSD Diary: 2002-12-01 - 2002-12-21 Message-Id: <20021222081002.A9439AE49F@nezlok.unixathome.org> Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:10:02 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The FreeBSD Diary contains a large number of practical examples and how-to guides. This message is posted weekly to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org with the aim of letting people know what's available on the website. Before you post a question here it might be a good idea to first search the mailing list archives and/or The FreeBSD Diary . These are the articles posted during this period: 6-Dec : PostgreSQL - removing foreign keys Things are getting easier http://freebsddiary.org/postgresql-dropping-constraints.php?2 -- Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.FreeBSDDiary.org/ - practical examples FreshPorts - http://www.FreshPorts.org/ - the place for ports FreshSource - http://www.FreshSource.org/ - the place for source To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Dec 22 11:55:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C7E37B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:55:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp07.wxs.nl (smtp07.wxs.nl [195.121.6.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAEC743EDE for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:55:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ww.houweling@zonnet.nl) Received: from work1.ziso.net ([213.10.118.62]) by smtp07.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H7JE1301.FXP for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:55:51 +0100 Subject: BSD or Linux? From: Wouter Houweling To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 Date: 22 Dec 2002 20:50:36 +0100 Message-Id: <1040586636.43821.26.camel@work1.ziso.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A few months ago, i decided to install SuSE 8.1 on my desktop (yeah, i confess ;), after working with FreeBSD for almost 2 years. At first i was quite suprised with the fact that everything worked out of the box, sound, playing meg's from mozilla etc. After a few days i got a little irritated because some programs started very slow (i.e evolution), or worked 'laggy'. When i wanted to add another user i couldn't find a proper way of doing it from the shell, my harddisks weren't accessible for normal users after an system update from the internet. Although these weren't big problems, i couldnt get them sorted out: just too many configuration files. The filesystem was a big mess, things lying all over the disk. Compiling other programs that weren't in the default distro were one big irritation, libs got lost, pathnames needed to be corrected. Also the whole system got very slow when copying large files. Booting took way longer then under FreeBSD. So, 2 months later, i have reinstalled my system with FreeBSD 4.7. Back too goold-old-BSD :) I love the fact that i know where my config's are, that they are stored in one place, that only whats really needed is running in the background, etc etc One question keeps bugging me though: why is gnulinux so much more popular then FreeBSD atm? Is the fact that Linux is 'hot' the reason they are (in my opinion) going in the wrong direction? Just wanted too share this with you guys :) greets, Wouter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Dec 22 12:55:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3EC37B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34F3943EDE for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:55:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jfm@blueyonder.co.uk) Received: from lexx ([62.31.198.203]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:55:34 +0000 From: John Murphy To: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:55:34 +0000 Organization: poor Reply-To: jfm@blueyonder.co.uk Message-ID: <5h7c0vc0qmfb064etc9fiur79jjooc5iqf@4ax.com> References: <1040586636.43821.26.camel@work1.ziso.net> In-Reply-To: <1040586636.43821.26.camel@work1.ziso.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wouter Houweling wrote: >So, 2 months later, i have reinstalled my system with FreeBSD 4.7. Back >too goold-old-BSD :) I love the fact that i know where my config's are, >that they are stored in one place, that only whats really needed is >running in the background, etc etc Yup. I've never tried a Linux variant myself; sometimes tempted but... I've just 'looked at' a friends win2k PC which was _very_ unstable. Trying to get some low level access to it was a nightmare, as is trying = to explain to someone how to do any kind of configuration to a Microsoft OS via email "Left click Start..." After trying edit whatever.log view etc. help listed more as the only = editor! And it wasn't the more familiar BSD more. I hope to never have to go = there again. >One question keeps bugging me though: why is gnulinux so much more >popular then FreeBSD atm? Is the fact that Linux is 'hot' the reason >they are (in my opinion) going in the wrong direction? It's ok, seems to me the BSDs are quietly superior in many ways: not = least the license. >Just wanted too share this with you guys :) Appreciated. --=20 John. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Dec 22 13:33: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D6FA37B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:33:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from fw.aub.dk (fw.aub.dk [195.24.1.195]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F3ED543EDC for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:33:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jacob@fw.aub.dk) Received: (qmail 1912 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Dec 2002 21:32:57 -0000 Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 22:32:57 +0100 From: Jacob Atzen To: Wouter Houweling , freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? Message-ID: <20021222213257.GA1845@morpheus.aub.dk> References: <1040586636.43821.26.camel@work1.ziso.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1040586636.43821.26.camel@work1.ziso.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Dec 22, 2002 at 08:50:36PM +0100, Wouter Houweling wrote: > One question keeps bugging me though: why is gnulinux so much more > popular then FreeBSD atm? Is the fact that Linux is 'hot' the reason > they are (in my opinion) going in the wrong direction? I've been using Linux for quite a while across several distributions. I'm very new to FreeBSD. I've got a FBSD box installed, but never really used it. The way I see it Linux is somewhat more hyped at the moment. Probably because it's bigger commercially than FreeBSD. And also because it's a good story for the media. Started by a single person, spread on out through the net. One thing I like about Linux is the decentralization. Only the kernel is under somewhat strict control. Somehow it seems more open than FreeBSD, though in reality it probably is not. Another aspect of this is the multiple distributions (there's a slew of different Linuxes out there). So if you want a very back-to-basics distribution you can have that. If you want a very polished Windows-like distro you can have that. That's a choice you don't have in FreeBSD. I'm curious as to why you seem to think that Linux is going in the wrong direction? Are you talking about the Linux kernel or SUSE or...? If you want a more BSD-like system you might like to try out Gentoo Linux. It's not graphical like SUSE or RedHat. It even has a ports-like system called portage. Which IMHO is superior to BSD ports. (Let the flame wars begin! ;-)) -- Greets - Jacob Atzen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Dec 22 13:49:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16A437B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow053o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.96]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA02D43EDA for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:49:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jfm@blueyonder.co.uk) Received: from lexx ([62.31.198.203]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:49:40 +0000 From: John Murphy To: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Voodoo Graphics Cards Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:49:10 +0000 Organization: poor Reply-To: jfm@blueyonder.co.uk Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "clayton rollins" wrote: > As a side note, I have generally had no problems using "unsupported" = cards.=20 >More often the constraint has been from monitor frequency rates. (My = last=20 >one would only work in 320x200 mode with the proper vrefresh. However, I= =20 >knew windows had underclocked the monitor previously, so I didn't think = it=20 >was too dangerous to go 1 kHz out of spec. I guess I'll see, huh?) Um, you wouldn't want to be 1kHz out on vrefresh and I think even the = older VGA monitors would do 640x480. 60Hz vrefresh works for most (uk, not = sure if this applies i13y.), ~85Hz seems flicker free. Most modern 'digital' monitors would simply goto standby mode if an = attempt was made to drive it at refresh rates it couldn't accommodate. --=20 John. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Dec 22 16:24:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B93637B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (f3.sea1.hotmail.com [207.68.163.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B4DE43ED8 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:24:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crollins666@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:24:00 -0800 Received: from 216.19.22.118 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 00:24:00 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.19.22.118] From: "clayton rollins" To: jfm@blueyonder.co.uk Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Vrefresh clocking Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 00:24:00 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Dec 2002 00:24:00.0753 (UTC) FILETIME=[9734F610:01C2AA19] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John, First, thanks for your concern... Next, To be a little more specific, it's an IBM 14v monitor(specs list a 76 kHz vrefresh), using an s3 64v+ (86c765 chip) card. The standard vga driver and the s3 trio driver both work with the card. (I should have stated that setup methods don't correctly support this chip, which is obviously supported by bsd drivers. Text mode, partial GUI, and full GUI all end up with very different XF86Config files. [e.g. text mode believes that card is unsupported and will only give a generic vga setup, etc.] Combining different parts of all three gave the final working config. Anyways...) According to the XF86 logs, none of the default modes of the s3 trio will work at a 76kHz vrefresh. Using the vga driver gave me 320x200 at the proper vrefresh. (some modes are also unusable because of the scant 64k video memory this card has.) After plugging in a good multi-sync monitor and adjusting my XF86Config, I re-ran startx, and checked the logs again. To my surprise, three good modes were found with 75-76kHz vrefresh. (using the s3 trio driver) I decided this was an acceptable thing after finding many different companies recommending their users set the vrefresh as low as 73-point-something for this monitor. I also believe that win 98 uses greater ranges than this due to the amount of distortion/flickering I would get in some of their modes (maybe just subjective opinion, though). I'm also going to continue to tinker with a custom modeline to try to get the vrefresh exactly right. (If anyone knows a link or man page which breaks down the math behind this, feel free to shout it out.) Thanks, Clayton >"clayton rollins" wrote: > > > As a side note, I have generally had no problems using "unsupported" >cards. > >More often the constraint has been from monitor frequency rates. (My last > >one would only work in 320x200 mode with the proper vrefresh. However, I > >knew windows had underclocked the monitor previously, so I didn't think >it > >was too dangerous to go 1 kHz out of spec. I guess I'll see, huh?) > >Um, you wouldn't want to be 1kHz out on vrefresh and I think even the older >VGA monitors would do 640x480. 60Hz vrefresh works for most (uk, not sure >if this applies i13y.), ~85Hz seems flicker free. > >Most modern 'digital' monitors would simply goto standby mode if an attempt >was made to drive it at refresh rates it couldn't accommodate. > >-- >John. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_advancedjmf_3mf To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Dec 22 17: 9:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B1737B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:09:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow058o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.98]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4290143EE5 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:09:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jfm@blueyonder.co.uk) Received: from lexx ([62.31.198.203]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:09:53 +0000 From: John Murphy To: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Vrefresh clocking Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:09:52 +0000 Organization: poor Reply-To: jfm@blueyonder.co.uk Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "clayton rollins" wrote: >After plugging in a good multi-sync monitor and adjusting my XF86Config,= I=20 >re-ran startx, and checked the logs again. To my surprise, three good = modes=20 >were found with 75-76kHz vrefresh. (using the s3 trio driver) It's the little 'k' in there I was worried about. Vertical refresh rate = is Hz (ie. fps whole pictures/second) not kHz. >I decided this was an acceptable thing after finding many different=20 >companies recommending their users set the vrefresh as low as=20 >73-point-something for this monitor. I also believe that win 98 uses = greater=20 >ranges than this due to the amount of distortion/flickering I would get = in=20 >some of their modes (maybe just subjective opinion, though). win2k insists my Compaq V70 only does 1024x768 @ 60Hz but it's been = working nicely at 85Hz. I doubt if you'd notice any flicker at 76Hz unless your ambient lighting was refreshing at an unfortunate harmonic :) >I'm also going to continue to tinker with a custom modeline to try to = get=20 >the vrefresh exactly right. (If anyone knows a link or man page which = breaks=20 >down the math behind this, feel free to shout it out.) You shouldn't need to but Greg Lehey's explanation in The Complete = FreeBSD is worth reading if you have access to it. Googling 'Xfree86 modelines' leads to (hopefully) useful resources. --=20 John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Dec 22 17:11:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631DB37B405 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:11:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com (df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7151243EDC for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:11:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from a-chrisf@exchange.microsoft.com) Received: from DF-YURI.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([10.197.0.60]) by df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5255); Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:11:55 -0800 Received: from DF-VRS-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.4.14]) by DF-YURI.platinum.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3718.0); Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:11:19 -0800 Received: from 10.197.0.48 by DF-VRS-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:11:19 -0800 Received: from DF-BEG.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([10.197.0.83]) by DF-STIMPY.platinum.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3718.0); Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:11:19 -0800 Received: from df-muttley.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([10.197.1.66]) by DF-BEG.platinum.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:11:19 -0800 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: BSD or Linux? MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:11:18 -0800 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=SHA1; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2A9DD.23188030" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6318.0 Message-ID: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F1014058EA@df-muttley.dogfood> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: BSD or Linux? Thread-Index: AcKp/I4ztp6aU6xjSZi5n5yMfRWawAAIvzXA From: "Chris Fox (Excell Data Corporation)" To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Dec 2002 01:11:19.0023 (UTC) FILETIME=[32F297F0:01C2AA20] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2A9DD.23188030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: John Murphy [mailto:jfm@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 12:56 PM To: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? >Yup. I've never tried a Linux variant myself; sometimes tempted but... I've just 'looked at' a friends win2k PC which was _very_ unstable. Trying to get some low level access to it was a nightmare, as is trying to explain to someone how to do any kind of configuration to a Microsoft OS via email "Left click Start..." Huh? Windows2000 unstable? I don't think I've ever heard that from anyone except maybe some kiddie on slashdot. W2K is extremely stable and is more so than most versions of Linux I've used. It's also a lot easier to administer. Anyone who told you to "click" on something to administer in Windows is someone who probably rides a bicycle with the training wheels on it. I do Linux, BSD, and Windows and while I prefer the unices for anything network-related, and while I don't gloss over Windows' real weaknesses of MS' business practices, I won't sit back and let this go unremarked: Windows is *way* easier to administer than any version of UNIX, and that includes RedHat and Mandrake Linux. The barriers to entry in Windows are trivial; the barriers to entry in UNIX are quite high. Try getting anything done in BSD without knowing some UNIX editor, and try learning that editor with any expectation that anything else you know helps. It doesn't. 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hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1B937B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:26:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.bellavista.cz (mail.bellavista.cz [62.168.44.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A87F43EE8 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:26:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neuhauser@bellavista.cz) Received: from freepuppy.bellavista.cz (freepuppy.bellavista.cz [10.0.0.10]) by mail.bellavista.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 870DF2CA; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 03:22:53 +0100 (CET) Received: by freepuppy.bellavista.cz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CC07B2FDC75; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:26:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:26:27 +0100 From: Roman Neuhauser To: "Chris Fox (Excell Data Corporation)" Cc: jfm@blueyonder.co.uk, newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? Message-ID: <20021223012627.GC42622@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mail-Followup-To: "Chris Fox (Excell Data Corporation)" , jfm@blueyonder.co.uk, newbies@freebsd.org References: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F1014058EA@df-muttley.dogfood> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F1014058EA@df-muttley.dogfood> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [fixed quoting] # a-chrisf@exchange.microsoft.com / 2002-12-22 17:11:18 -0800: > -----Original Message----- > From: John Murphy [mailto:jfm@blueyonder.co.uk] > Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 12:56 PM > To: newbies@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? > > >Yup. I've never tried a Linux variant myself; sometimes tempted but... > >I've just 'looked at' a friends win2k PC which was _very_ unstable. > >Trying to get some low level access to it was a nightmare, as is trying > >to explain to someone how to do any kind of configuration to a Microsoft > >OS via email "Left click Start..." > > Huh? Windows2000 unstable? I don't think I've ever heard that from > anyone except maybe some kiddie on slashdot. W2K is extremely stable yeah. I actually wanted to say something along that lines. it's [in]definitely more stable than the disaster called Windows XP, from what I've seen. :) > and is more so than most versions of Linux I've used. can't comment on this one. > It's also a lot easier to administer. Anyone who told you to "click" > on something to administer in Windows is someone who probably rides a > bicycle with the training wheels on it. I do Linux, BSD, and Windows > and while I prefer the unices for anything network-related, and while > I don't gloss over Windows' real weaknesses of MS' business practices, > I won't sit back and let this go unremarked: Windows is *way* easier > to administer than any version of UNIX, and that includes RedHat and > Mandrake Linux. in what respect is it easier to administer? > The barriers to entry in Windows are trivial; the barriers to entry in > UNIX are quite high. Try getting anything done in BSD without knowing > some UNIX editor, and try learning that editor with any expectation that > anything else you know helps. It doesn't. It's deliberately > inscrutable and that does not help get more people using UNIX. well, the default editor in FreeBSD is IIRC ee(1), and that's as easy (and as frustrating) as Notepad. -- If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore your message. see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Dec 22 18:13:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0CD37B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow058o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.98]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5315643EE6 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:13:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jfm@blueyonder.co.uk) Received: from lexx ([62.31.198.203]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:13:38 +0000 From: John Murphy To: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:13:38 +0000 Organization: poor Reply-To: jfm@blueyonder.co.uk Message-ID: <9mpc0vgc4gic7583f59uqg71l9ubsi58bl@4ax.com> References: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F1014058EA@df-muttley.dogfood> In-Reply-To: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F1014058EA@df-muttley.dogfood> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Chris Fox (Excell Data Corporation)" = wrote: >Huh? Windows2000 unstable? I don't think I've ever heard that from >anyone except maybe some kiddie on slashdot. W2K is extremely stable >and is more so than most versions of Linux I've used. It's late and you mis-read what I said. Suffice to say it was a hardware problem which the amazing 2k survived. >It's also a lot easier to administer. I'd disagree but it largely depends on from where you're coming. >Anyone who told you to "click" on something to >administer in Windows is someone who probably rides a bicycle with the >training wheels on it. So you've never found yourself trying to explain to a novice MSwindows = user where to click? >Windows is *way* easier to administer than any >version of UNIX, and that includes RedHat and Mandrake Linux. Many would argue. >The barriers to entry in Windows are trivial; the barriers to entry in >UNIX are quite high. Try getting anything done in BSD without knowing >some UNIX editor, and try learning that editor with any expectation that >anything else you know helps. It doesn't. It's deliberately >inscrutable and that does not help get more people using UNIX. Absolutely Not deliberately inscrutable. How can it be when it's open = source? As for barriers, may you never have to try to recover someone's precious = files from a machine running windows 2k with what thankfully turned out to be = failing DDR memory. It was the abysmal recovery toolset on the install CD I was horrified by. Had I not found the fault I would probably have fitted a = FreeBSD HD next :) --=20 John. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Dec 22 18:38: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7C437B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:38:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (f208.sea1.hotmail.com [207.68.163.208]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5B2543ED8 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:38:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crollins666@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:38:01 -0800 Received: from 216.19.22.118 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:38:01 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.19.22.118] From: "clayton rollins" To: ww.houweling@zonnet.nl Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:38:01 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Dec 2002 02:38:01.0783 (UTC) FILETIME=[5008C470:01C2AA2C] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wouter, I think, in many ways, you answered your own questions. First, about Linux's popularity. Maybe this was best demonstrated for me in a class I recently took at college. During the course, I got the teacher to give a little class time for Linux/BSD (most students here have had only experience with MS OSes) and even got to sit through a Mandrake install. FreeBSD is definitely my favorite OS, and I wanted to promote it as much as possible, but it was very hard to, after watching Mandrake install with all defaults. Sure, I mentioned that those defaults probably opened the way for security faults and future errors, but BSD is a useless alternative to those who can't install it. (The majority of technicians I've met draw a blank when you mention changing CMOS settings, and most users don't want to spend a week reading the manual. Bottom line, I have never had an install go through on the first try in BSD, and I should know the relevant details by now.) Admittedly, these fellow users should come out from the dark ages of not understanding/being afraid of computers and gain the knowledge required to install bsd (or learn to ask questions), but I doubt they will. (In contrast, one I know of has already started trying a Linux install.) Some of the things us technical people do, and consider easy, are very hard for an average user. From what I gather, most of what you mean by Linux "going in the wrong direction," is also most of the reason it works the way it does, by lack of adherence to protocol. Not to bring up the microsoft "quality" OSes, but Windows "works," a term I use loosely, largely because it doesn't have to accept other protocols and standards. (I mean, how hard is it to show a performance gain, if your company had control of the standards of the compiler, the OS, and, in some cases, the hardware involved.) Embedded media players are another great example of this. Linux, as you stated, could play media directly from the mozilla browser, well, what if you want to use a different player? what if you want to pass it a command line option to drop the frame-rate, or invert the picture? you're probably SOL (maybe not, but I'm willing to bet it's less flexible than BSD). (Not to start a flame war; Linux and MS are on different planes when it comes to lack of respect for standards, and I certainly don't mean to portray Linux like that.) (And, of course, some of this is attributable to Linux's rapid growth, not an active disregard for protocols. [though xinetd makes me wonder]) This also sounds like the cause of some of the problems you had with the system, that config files weren't where you'd expect them, outside software had a hard time, etc. (whereas, with bsd, people would probably scream profusely with references to the hier man page if they ever saw a file out of place.) Which brings me to the reason I chose BSD to begin with, and why I wouldn't waste my time with other OSes any more. BSD is based on implemented tried-and-true standards, many of which came during the early years of UNIX. It is well thought out and tested. (I have a hard time believing many Linux computers even try for a year continuous operation.) And, though it was hard to set up the first few times, all errors since then have been solved easily with online resources and documentation. ("The power to serve" sums it up nicely.) And, I'm not sure I'd like BSD if it were the typical desktop OS; I think it does a very good job of being user-friendly, without robbing the power of the user or the system. (for instance, I'm glad I got to enable USER_LDT [for mplayer, wine, etc.] rather than it being on by default. I now know the security risks of setting this, whereas a linux user likely has very little idea that there's a risk at all, though they got out of recompiling their kernel...) Just some thoughts... Clayton > >A few months ago, i decided to install SuSE 8.1 on my desktop (yeah, i >confess ;), after working with FreeBSD for almost 2 years. At first i >was quite suprised with the fact that everything worked out of the box, >sound, playing meg's from mozilla etc. > ... > >So, 2 months later, i have reinstalled my system with FreeBSD 4.7. Back >too goold-old-BSD :) I love the fact that i know where my config's are, >that they are stored in one place, that only whats really needed is >running in the background, etc etc > >One question keeps bugging me though: why is gnulinux so much more >popular then FreeBSD atm? Is the fact that Linux is 'hot' the reason >they are (in my opinion) going in the wrong direction? > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_advancedjmf_3mf To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Dec 22 18:43:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D3A37B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com (df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4AD243EE6 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:43:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from a-chrisf@exchange.microsoft.com) Received: from DF-YURI.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([10.197.0.60]) by df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5255); Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:44:20 -0800 Received: from DF-VRS-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.4.14]) by DF-YURI.platinum.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3718.0); Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:43:44 -0800 Received: from 10.197.0.48 by DF-VRS-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:43:44 -0800 Received: from DF-BEG.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([10.197.0.83]) by DF-STIMPY.platinum.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3718.0); Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:43:43 -0800 Received: from df-muttley.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([10.197.1.66]) by DF-BEG.platinum.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:43:43 -0800 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: BSD or Linux? MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:43:43 -0800 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=SHA1; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C2A9EA.0E095810" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6318.0 Message-ID: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F1014058EB@df-muttley.dogfood> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: BSD or Linux? Thread-Index: AcKqKOztUWbwDusnSieGhZpxjTSVWgAA7FaQ From: "Chris Fox (Excell Data Corporation)" To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Dec 2002 02:43:43.0491 (UTC) FILETIME=[1BB54530:01C2AA2D] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C2A9EA.0E095810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: John Murphy [mailto:jfm@blueyonder.co.uk]=20 >Absolutely Not deliberately inscrutable. How can it be when it's open source? As for barriers, may you never have to try to recover someone's precious files from a machine running windows 2k with what thankfully turned out to be failing DDR memory. It was the abysmal recovery toolset on the install CD I was horrified by. Had I not found the fault I would probably have fitted a FreeBSD HD next :) Since this thread is probably off-topic anyway I don't want to keep it going, but I do want to say that this constant bashing of Windows is most "off-putting" and I can tell you from personal experience that I would have gotten into UNIX at least five years and probably ten years before I did were it not for the condecending crap I got over the years for being a Windows programmer. =20 But the deliberate inscrutability of UNIX isn't something I made up, I've had people brag to me about it, as though having to learn a different command set for every application or utility represents some sort of strength. I totally approve of keeping the morons away from computers but making things deliberately cryptic also drives away bright people who come to regard the whole thing as amateurish. 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Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (f49.sea1.hotmail.com [207.68.163.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3837943ED8 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:48:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crollins666@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:47:25 -0800 Received: from 216.19.22.118 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:47:25 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.19.22.118] From: "clayton rollins" To: jfm@blueyonder.co.uk Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Vrefresh clocking Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:47:25 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Dec 2002 02:47:25.0545 (UTC) FILETIME=[A0100590:01C2AA2D] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John, Thanks and sorry. (I'm not sure where that k came from, teach me to take correct notes the first time....) Peace, Clayton _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspamprotection_3mf To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Dec 22 21:28:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0854037B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:28:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.huntbros.net (130-94-162-227-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.162.227]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3105043EE5 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:28:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dh@huntbros.net) Received: from pdx.huntbros.net (IDENT:1005@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.huntbros.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id gBN5S6m7004187 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:28:06 -0800 Received: (from dh@localhost) by pdx.huntbros.net (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id gBN5S505004186; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:28:05 -0800 Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:28:05 -0800 (PST) From: David Hunt To: Subject: Mac iBook OS10 + BSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have been using Linux (Slackware) for a number of years on my desktop, and have never used BSD. From what I've gathered, BSD sounds like the kind of OS I would like. I Now need to get a laptop, and have been thinking of getting a new Mac Ibook, but OS 10 seems to lack some important features I want/need, like virtual terminals, things I have grown quite used to. Would BSD be a good choice for the iBook as the third OS (along with OS9 and OS10)? How much can BSD share things like utilities and config files with OS10? Is there any special compatability due to the OSs being similar in some ways? How should I plan my BSD intallation? Any special advantage of having BSD on a Mac with OS10, as compared to Linux Slackware? -- David Hunt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Dec 23 2:25: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78AF737B401 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 222C243EDE for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:24:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from [212.227.126.155] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18QPlX-0002jR-00; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:24:55 +0100 Received: from [80.133.98.184] (helo=moritz.alleswirdgruener) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18QPlW-0004jd-00; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:24:55 +0100 Received: from moritz.alleswirdgruener (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgruener (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBNALZJg000292; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:21:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost) by moritz.alleswirdgruener (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id gBMNj1VP001526; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 00:45:01 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 00:45:01 +0100 (CET) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@localhost To: Jacob Atzen Cc: Wouter Houweling , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? In-Reply-To: <20021222213257.GA1845@morpheus.aub.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > a good story for the media. Started by a single person, spread on out > through the net. Why should I care? And why should I use a unix lookalike workaround if I can have free BSD? For me, it was rather simple. Had allready had Minix, and when I tried all one floppy unixes, the only one that did really run was PicoBSD. And I had a 2.15 CD from a bookshop...etcpp To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Dec 23 7:52: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297DD37B413 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 07:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25D5343EDA for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 07:52:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-a042.otenet.gr [212.205.215.42]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBNFptg7019595; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:51:56 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBNFps1B001749; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:51:54 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gBNFi5qI091419; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:44:05 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:44:05 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Chris Fox Cc: jfm@blueyonder.co.uk, newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? Message-ID: <20021223154405.GC1622@gothmog.gr> References: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F1014058EA@df-muttley.dogfood> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F1014058EA@df-muttley.dogfood> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org # Format of quotes recovered. Please fix your mailer. It seems to quote the text of the original poster without any sort of indication of where the original text is. This makes it very difficult to read the message and clearly see what you are replying to, and what your part says. On 2002-12-22 17:11, Chris Fox wrote: > John Murphy [jfm@blueyonder.co.uk] wrote: > > Yup. I've never tried a Linux variant myself; sometimes tempted > > but... I've just 'looked at' a friends win2k PC which was _very_ > > unstable. Trying to get some low level access to it was a > > nightmare, as is trying to explain to someone how to do any kind > > of configuration to a Microsoft OS via email "Left click Start..." > > Huh? Windows2000 unstable? I don't think I've ever heard that from > anyone except maybe some kiddie on slashdot. W2K is extremely > stable and is more so than most versions of Linux I've used. This is a personal opinion. Instead of attacking the original poster by calling him names (like `kiddie on slashdot'), you could have just pointed out that his friend's PC being unstable does not necessarily mean that it was Windows' fault. Your addition, that argues W2k is more stable than Linux is, IMHO, unasked for, and unsupported by anything else in your post, so let's not go on with it. Stability is something that needs to be defined first, and only when the criteria of stability in a system have been agreed upon, research by knowledgable users of both Linux and Windows has been finished... only then can anyone be able to make statements like this one. > It's also a lot easier to administer. The word ``easy'' is very easy to write, but very hard to explain, in contexts like this. What you consider easy, others might find pretty near to silly, bloated, uncomfortable, cumbersome, inconsistent, and a whole ton of other adjectives. > Anyone who told you to "click" on something to administer in Windows > is someone who probably rides a bicycle with the training wheels on > it. Are you arguing that the GUI is then unnecessary and can be avoided for all the tasks that someone administering a Windows machine might find himself doing? There are many things that can't be done without going through the mandatory maze of point n' click interfaces in Windows. Installation of new drivers is just one that I can think off the top of my head. Configuration of a new dialup interface is another. Many programs save their options in the Windows registry. Reading and tuning their options without having to go through regedit, at all, is another task that requires using the GUI. There probably are tons of other tasks that have to be done with "clicks" too. > I do Linux, BSD, and Windows and while I prefer the unices for > anything network-related, and while I don't gloss over Windows' real > weaknesses of MS' business practices, I won't sit back and let this > go unremarked: That looks remarkably like something that Anthony Atkielsky would write, but nevermind :))) I won't go again down the path of why "I prefer the unices for anything network-related" is wrong. This has been the cause of hopeless, never-ending, bandwidth wasting, huge, monster-discussions in the past, and you can find a lot about it in the list archives. All I can say is ``Please not again.'' > Windows is *way* easier to administer than any version of UNIX, and > that includes RedHat and Mandrake Linux. It might be. For you. I find it rather difficult to work with the tools of the system when sitting on a Windows machine though. This is because I'm not used to point and click through a maze of dialogs to change my system's configuration. But this doesn't mean that Windows is harder to use. It only means that *I*, just me, not everyone, find Windows more difficult to work with. > The barriers to entry in Windows are trivial; the barriers to entry > in UNIX are quite high. True. That's both good and bad at the same time though. It's probably one of the reasons why tasks go wrong so often in Windows installations after a while. Users who try pretending that they are the 'Administrator' on Windows machines, and have no patience to read the documentation that comes with their system (precisely because the barrier is so low, and they couldn't care less about it), tend to make silly mistakes like messing with their partition tables, blocking themselves out of the system by disabling their passwords, or installing drivers that can crash the whole thing. > Try getting anything done in BSD without knowing some UNIX editor, This is partly true. You don't have to use vi(1) if you don't like it though. Dozens of packages are available on the installation CD-ROMs with editors like joe, pico, jed for text terminals, or more complete, full of features, bells and whistles editors like nedit, and emacs. There's also an editor installed with FreeBSD, under the very predictable name of "edit" in /usr/bin. It's (sort of) menu driven, and has a rather visible "help screen" on top of the edited text. It's easy enough to be used when one begins working with FreeBSD. You're not expected to know anything to be able to use it. > and try learning that editor with any expectation that anything else > you know helps. It doesn't. It's deliberately inscrutable and that > does not help get more people using UNIX. I don't understand what is being said above. What is it exactly that you are referring to? - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Dec 23 9:23:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C7337B401; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:23:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net (scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDCC643EE6; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:23:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lute@cableone.net) Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net ([10.116.0.122]) by scanmail2.cableone.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:22:00 -0700 Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122] by scanmail2.cableone.net (SMTPD32-7.04) id A637D1E70100; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:21:59 -0700 Received: from (227-51.siocpe.cableone.net [24.116.227.51]) by mail.cableone.net with SMTP (MailShield v2.04 - WIN32 Jul 17 2001 17:12:42); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:21:59 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:19:47 -0600 (CST) From: Lute Mullenix X-X-Sender: lute@agnes To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Chris Fox , "" , "" Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? In-Reply-To: <20021223154405.GC1622@gothmog.gr> Message-ID: <20021223104346.O64422-100000@agnes> References: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F1014058EA@df-muttley.dogfood> <20021223154405.GC1622@gothmog.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-SMTP-HELO: 227-51.siocpe.cableone.net X-SMTP-MAIL-FROM: lute@cableone.net X-SMTP-PEER-INFO: 227-51.siocpe.cableone.net [24.116.227.51] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well I would like to put a little different perspective on this whole thing. Unlike most people out there I didn't start my computer experience with Windows, or even DOS for that matter. I started it with a UNIX cloan called OS-9 that could be installed on Tandy's wonderful little CoCo computer. I was kind of excited when I first heard about Windows and couldn't wait to give it a spin. First crack was on 3.1 and while I liked WordPerfect for Windows, I found Windows it self to be a silly, and often stupid, and frustrating GUI set over what was a fairly usable if not multi-tasking OS. All this pointing and clicking to do what should have been a simple command line task. Oh and by the way, OS-9 was multi-tasking and had Windows some time before M$ hit the market with their bloated wonder. And it ran on a 2 MHz machine with 1/2 meg of ram. And yes it was usable, I used it for quite some time. Anyway this was the first machine I have ever had that had Windows installed on it at any point while I have owned the computer. When I bought it, it came with ME on it and I quickly used Unix tools to shrink the FAT partition to a realistic size and in no time had a triple boot system up and running. This was the first time I actually tried to "use" FreeBSD, but had been using Debian's Linux for a little over a year and was pretty happy with it. This was also a chance to use Windows on a daily basis. Well a few months down the road three things had happened. First FBSD had become my OS of choice. Still a couple of things I think Linux has over FBSD, but for me anyway FBSD is the over all winner. Second I had become totally fed up with Windows point-and-crash, and the moronic, run around way of doing things. Third I removed two things from my system, one was a line from my signature file, which made it necessary to edit another line. I will let you guess what the other one was, but here's a hint... There's now no FAT partitions on my hard drives. Lute ********************** Dual Boot: * FreeBSD 4.7 RELEASE * Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 * ********************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Dec 23 9:26:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3407C37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:26:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sentry.24cl.com (174.113.sn.ct.dsl.thebiz.net [216.238.113.174]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951C643EE6 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:26:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from myraq@mgm51.com) Received: from ntmm (unknown [63.119.50.193]) by sentry.24cl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 906D929498 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:26:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200212231226330690.13D9A43E@home.24cl.com> In-Reply-To: <20021223154405.GC1622@gothmog.gr> References: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F1014058EA@df-muttley.dogfood> <20021223154405.GC1622@gothmog.gr> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.30.00.00 (1) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:26:33 -0500 Reply-To: myraq@mgm51.com From: "MikeM" To: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12/23/02 at 5:44 PM Giorgos Keramidas wrote: ... ============= Isn't it about time this thread were moved to the advocacy list? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Dec 23 9:38:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F32F37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow058o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.98]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7121243EDE for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:38:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jfm@blueyonder.co.uk) Received: from lexx ([62.31.198.203]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:38:33 +0000 From: John Murphy To: David Hunt Cc: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mac iBook OS10 + BSD Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:38:33 +0000 Organization: poor Reply-To: jfm@blueyonder.co.uk Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Hunt wrote: >How should I plan my BSD intallation? Any special advantage of having >BSD on a Mac with OS10, as compared to Linux Slackware? If it's got OS ten then you'll probably have Darwin: http://developer.apple.com/darwin/ --=20 John. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Dec 23 9:53:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B17D37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:53:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx20b.rmci.net (mx20b.rmci.net [205.162.184.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A060343EDE for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:53:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from massey@rmci.net) Received: (qmail 28450 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2002 17:53:53 -0000 Received: from dsl-ip-216-222-2-35.boi.rmci.net (HELO data) (216.222.2.35) by mx20.rmci.net with SMTP; 23 Dec 2002 17:53:53 -0000 From: "Mike" To: Subject: RE: BSD or Linux? Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:23:45 -0700 Message-ID: <003a01c2aab0$6e0d8120$0500a8c0@data> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <20021223104346.O64422-100000@agnes> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I started on a TRS-80 with a cassette tape. And like someone else mentioned this should move on over to the other list. But I have to add some;-) All OS's have a place. Some suck more than others. But I am required to know at least part of all of them to feed my family. Each feeds my family, some more than others. You guess which one I get more hours of support pay on;-) Get the point? Feed family means more than some petty crap. -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG] On Behalf Of Lute Mullenix Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 10:20 AM To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Chris Fox; jfm@blueyonder.co.uk; newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? Well I would like to put a little different perspective on this whole thing. Unlike most people out there I didn't start my computer experience with Windows, or even DOS for that matter. I started it with a UNIX cloan called OS-9 that could be installed on Tandy's wonderful little CoCo computer. I was kind of excited when I first heard about Windows and couldn't wait to give it a spin. First crack was on 3.1 and while I liked WordPerfect for Windows, I found Windows it self to be a silly, and often stupid, and frustrating GUI set over what was a fairly usable if not multi-tasking OS. All this pointing and clicking to do what should have been a simple command line task. Oh and by the way, OS-9 was multi-tasking and had Windows some time before M$ hit the market with their bloated wonder. And it ran on a 2 MHz machine with 1/2 meg of ram. And yes it was usable, I used it for quite some time. Anyway this was the first machine I have ever had that had Windows installed on it at any point while I have owned the computer. When I bought it, it came with ME on it and I quickly used Unix tools to shrink the FAT partition to a realistic size and in no time had a triple boot system up and running. This was the first time I actually tried to "use" FreeBSD, but had been using Debian's Linux for a little over a year and was pretty happy with it. This was also a chance to use Windows on a daily basis. Well a few months down the road three things had happened. First FBSD had become my OS of choice. Still a couple of things I think Linux has over FBSD, but for me anyway FBSD is the over all winner. Second I had become totally fed up with Windows point-and-crash, and the moronic, run around way of doing things. Third I removed two things from my system, one was a line from my signature file, which made it necessary to edit another line. I will let you guess what the other one was, but here's a hint... There's now no FAT partitions on my hard drives. Lute ********************** Dual Boot: * FreeBSD 4.7 RELEASE * Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 * ********************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Dec 23 10:15:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D2D37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net (scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF82F43EE5 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lute@cableone.net) Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net ([10.116.0.122]) by scanmail2.cableone.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:14:15 -0700 Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122] by scanmail2.cableone.net (SMTPD32-7.04) id A276D7CC0100; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:14:14 -0700 Received: from agnes (227-51.siocpe.cableone.net [24.116.227.51]) by mail.cableone.net with SMTP (MailShield v2.04 - WIN32 Jul 17 2001 17:12:42); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:14:14 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:12:02 -0600 From: Lute Mullenix To: myraq@mgm51.com Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? Message-Id: <20021223121202.6d1faf00.lute@cableone.net> In-Reply-To: <200212231226330690.13D9A43E@home.24cl.com> References: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F1014058EA@df-muttley.dogfood> <20021223154405.GC1622@gothmog.gr> <200212231226330690.13D9A43E@home.24cl.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SMTP-HELO: agnes X-SMTP-MAIL-FROM: lute@cableone.net X-SMTP-PEER-INFO: 227-51.siocpe.cableone.net [24.116.227.51] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:26:33 -0500 "MikeM" pondered: > > Isn't it about time this thread were moved to the advocacy list? > You're probably right, but sometimes it erks me when people say something is too hard just because they are too lazy to do the homework, and make off the cuff remarks on things they know little to nothing about. Brings to mind a friend of mine, when I was using OS-9 he wanted to try it so we installed it on his computer. Then he would be over checking out my system and would ask, "How did you do this?" and the answer would always be the same... "It's in the manual." Lute ********************** Dual Boot: * FreeBSD 4.7 RELEASE * Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 * ********************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Dec 23 11:36:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 418EE37B401; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (f210.sea1.hotmail.com [207.68.163.210]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF0F843EDE; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:36:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crollins666@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:33:16 -0800 Received: from 216.19.22.118 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:33:16 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.19.22.118] From: "clayton rollins" To: keramida@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:33:16 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Dec 2002 19:33:16.0536 (UTC) FILETIME=[240E6F80:01C2AABA] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > It's also a lot easier to administer. > >The word ``easy'' is very easy to write, but very hard to explain, in >contexts like this. What you consider easy, others might find pretty >near to silly, bloated, uncomfortable, cumbersome, inconsistent, and a >whole ton of other adjectives. > > > Anyone who told you to "click" on something to administer in Windows > > is someone who probably rides a bicycle with the training wheels on > > it. > >Are you arguing that the GUI is then unnecessary and can be avoided >for all the tasks that someone administering a Windows machine might >find himself doing? > >There are many things that can't be done without going through the >mandatory maze of point n' click interfaces in Windows. Installation >of new drivers is just one that I can think off the top of my head. >Configuration of a new dialup interface is another. Many programs >save their options in the Windows registry. Reading and tuning their >options without having to go through regedit, at all, is another task >that requires using the GUI. There probably are tons of other tasks >that have to be done with "clicks" too. > First, damn fine point! easy is most definitely a relative term. Second, since you brought it up, the control panel can be accessed by running the associated applets from the command line, though you still need the gui to actually make the changes. For instance, >control appwiz.cpl will bring up the add/remove programs dialog. (a full listing is available from support.microsoft.com, article ID q192806, for you techs out there.) This is very useful if the user has deleted the panel, or explorer becomes fatal. I wouldn't be too surprised if there was some regedit tool for the CLI, but I usually just replace it if it comes to that...(if backups were made) As for if MS is usable..., I'll leave that for the user to decide. Peace, Clayton PS. I have both XP pro and freebsd 4.7. I'll give you two guesses which one's on all my computers, and which one sits in a drawer gathering dust. (clue: it's the one with liscensing which allows me to...) _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_eliminateviruses_3mf To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Dec 23 11:42:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD30137B401; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (f98.sea1.hotmail.com [207.68.163.98]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6526A43EDE; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:42:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crollins666@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:40:47 -0800 Received: from 216.19.22.118 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:40:47 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.19.22.118] From: "clayton rollins" To: keramida@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sorry (quotes), was: MS control panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:40:47 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Dec 2002 19:40:47.0953 (UTC) FILETIME=[311F3410:01C2AABB] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just kick me in the teeth!! quoted quotes (>>) are from a-chrisf@microsoft.exchange.com quotes are kerimida@freebsd.org Sorry _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 limited-time offer: Join now and get 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_newmsn8ishere_3mf To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Dec 23 12: 4:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D48637B401 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C77543EF4 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:04:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk) Received: from caomhin.demon.co.uk ([62.49.21.186]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #2) id 18QYoT-0003Ox-0Z; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:04:33 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:04:08 +0000 To: clayton rollins Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org From: Kevin Golding Subject: Re: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Someone, quite probably clayton rollins, once wrote: >Second, since you brought it up, the control panel can be accessed by >running the associated applets from the command line, though you still need >the gui to actually make the changes. And view the things of course :-) You can launch Word et al from the command line within Windows but doing it from an old fashioned DOS prompt won't get you very far. It doesn't truly count as the command line if it needs a GUI also running to get any worthwhile results. >I wouldn't be too surprised if there was some regedit tool for the CLI, but >I usually just replace it if it comes to that...(if backups were made) Regedit can apparently be made to do things from the command line. MS have something about Win95 being able to do command line merges (Q131352) and I did come across a page that suggests it'll work on all versions. DISCLAIMER: This is seriously untested by me and breaking your PC is your own fault! Okay, the theory is this. Create a text file that conforms to the registry standard (simplest way would be to export from a working registry so you can see what it looks like in text.) On the command line you would use: > regedit /s your_changes.reg That should merge in the contents of your_changes.reg and you need never see Explorer ever again. Btw: > regedit /e backupreg.txt will export your registry to a nice plain text file for you to edit. How well it works and in which versions shall be left to those who are happy to risk breaking some Windows. Kevin, just always found the BSD way the most logical one -- kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Dec 23 14:30:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CE7837B401 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:30:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com (df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7903543F03 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:30:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from a-chrisf@exchange.microsoft.com) Received: from DF-YURI.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([10.197.0.60]) by df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5255); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:30:44 -0800 Received: from DF-VRS-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.4.14]) by DF-YURI.platinum.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3718.0); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:30:08 -0800 Received: from 10.197.0.48 by DF-VRS-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:30:08 -0800 Received: from DF-BEG.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([10.197.0.83]) by DF-STIMPY.platinum.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3718.0); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:30:08 -0800 Received: from df-muttley.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([10.197.1.66]) by DF-BEG.platinum.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:30:07 -0800 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:30:07 -0800 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=SHA1; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01C2AA8F.C9E357C0" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6318.0 Message-ID: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F10140591F@df-muttley.dogfood> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? Thread-Index: AcKqvomJJHhG2Z71TAiy3S9VHSwj4QAFDpKw From: "Chris Fox (Excell Data Corporation)" To: "Kevin Golding" , "clayton rollins" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Dec 2002 22:30:07.0981 (UTC) FILETIME=[D8F871D0:01C2AAD2] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C2AA8F.C9E357C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Golding [mailto:kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk] Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 12:04 PM To: clayton rollins Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? Someone, quite probably clayton rollins, once wrote: >>Second, since you brought it up, the control panel can be accessed by >>running the associated applets from the command line, though you still need >>the gui to actually make the changes. >And view the things of course :-) You can launch Word et al from the command >line within Windows but doing it from an old fashioned DOS prompt won't get >you very far. It doesn't truly count as the command line if it needs a GUI >also running to get any worthwhile results. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C2AA8F.C9E357C0 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIII9zCCAoYw ggHvoAMCAQICAwiunTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADCBkjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdl c3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3duMQ8wDQYDVQQKEwZUaGF3dGUxHTAbBgNVBAsT FENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNlcnZpY2VzMSgwJgYDVQQDEx9QZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBSU0EgMjAw MC44LjMwMB4XDTAyMTExMTE4NDA1M1oXDTAzMTExMTE4NDA1M1owSDEfMB0GA1UEAxMWVGhhd3Rl IEZyZWVtYWlsIE1lbWJlcjElMCMGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYWYS1jaHJpc2ZAbWljcm9zb2Z0LmNvbTCB nzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEAsneO24rouiNdUsTURWA5TRpJ+d9Wzv8f/7u2S59g 5qd1KurfK1XqHXuupNIccadUlZv9efaREPcgxtg8TASLstdJgI6z7Z0bWjwRNhky+kq43gz/HDRT 5JTSxL2KoUT80TxANq4LQC0oJ+0YYsihFXKS23YCmdwJgvaW5g9K5bsCAwEAAaMzMDEwIQYDVR0R 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hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADFE537B401 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow058o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.98]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38DD543EE8 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:27:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jfm@blueyonder.co.uk) Received: from lexx ([62.31.198.203]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Tue, 24 Dec 2002 01:27:11 +0000 From: John Murphy To: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 01:27:10 +0000 Organization: poor Reply-To: jfm@blueyonder.co.uk Message-ID: <1ndf0v8gvklmabil4826r4egegvtfb51be@4ax.com> References: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F10140591F@df-muttley.dogfood> In-Reply-To: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F10140591F@df-muttley.dogfood> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Chris Fox (Excell Data Corporation)" = wrote: >>And view the things of course :-) You can launch Word et al from the >command=20 >>line within Windows but doing it from an old fashioned DOS prompt won't >get=20 >>you very far. It doesn't truly count as the command line if it needs a >GUI=20 >>also running to get any worthwhile results. Your mailer seems to be wrapping quoted text, adding something called = smime.p7s and removing your contribution. --=20 Keep trying, John. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Dec 23 19:27:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2370D37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:27:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com (df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBC143EE5 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:27:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from a-chrisf@exchange.microsoft.com) Received: from DF-YURI.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([10.197.0.60]) by df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5255); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:28:09 -0800 Received: from DF-VRS-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.4.14]) by DF-YURI.platinum.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3718.0); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:27:33 -0800 Received: from 10.197.0.48 by DF-VRS-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:27:33 -0800 Received: from DF-BEG.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([10.197.0.83]) by DF-STIMPY.platinum.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3718.0); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:27:33 -0800 Received: from df-muttley.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([10.197.1.66]) by DF-BEG.platinum.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:27:33 -0800 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:27:33 -0800 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=SHA1; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0032_01C2AAB9.56260880" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6318.0 Message-ID: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F101405939@df-muttley.dogfood> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? Thread-Index: AcKq66V0kPmHZOY3SgeN6tF0n5wTKgAD+NDA From: "Chris Fox (Excell Data Corporation)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Dec 2002 03:27:33.0274 (UTC) FILETIME=[65980FA0:01C2AAFC] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C2AAB9.56260880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Murphy [mailto:jfm@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 5:27 PM To: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? "Chris Fox (Excell Data Corporation)" wrote: >>And view the things of course :-) You can launch Word et al from the >command >>line within Windows but doing it from an old fashioned DOS prompt >>won't >get >>you very far. It doesn't truly count as the command line if it needs >>a >GUI >>also running to get any worthwhile results. >Your mailer seems to be wrapping quoted text, adding something called smime.p7s >and removing your contribution. It isn't my mailer, it's my clumsy fingers; I somehow hit send just as I was starting to type. The MIME attachment is an X.509 certificate and should be recognizable to any operating system; I have the same cert installed under Konqueror on three Linux distros and it works there. What I meant to say before I fat-fingered away the email was that it took me about five minutes using BASH before I couldn't stand CMD.EXE anymore. I've known UNIX commandline stuff for years before I used UNIX (we have all those tools on the Windows side, ported by MKS and GNU) but I had never used a real shell, other than ksh for a few months long ago. However: to say that Windows is somehow deficient because there are no commandline tools to do what the GUI tools do is kind of silly. I would never suggest that some version of Linux sucks because it lacks GUI tools to do the configuration; UNIX is first and foremost a commandline environment and Windows is first and foremost a GUI environment. I'm not dancing in the middle of the road here, but I use both, I like both, both have their respective strengths and weaknesses. And someone like me who can use a GUI without a mouse will outperform both the commandline wizard and the grin-and-click GUI user. Really, guys, I didn't sign up for these lists to read most of that slashdot MS-bashing. Yeah I work here, sue me, but I really like BSD and I would rather learn about it without hearing about how much people hate Windows. 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Mon, 23 Dec 2002 22:07:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.171]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5535943ED8; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 22:07:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from [212.227.126.155] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18QiEM-0004HH-00; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:07:54 +0100 Received: from [80.133.98.118] (helo=moritz.alleswirdgruener) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18QiEL-0000zh-00; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:07:54 +0100 Received: from moritz.alleswirdgruener (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgruener (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBO64IBW000217; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:04:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost) by moritz.alleswirdgruener (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id gBO0a8Jv000298; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 01:36:08 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 01:36:08 +0100 (CET) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@localhost To: clayton rollins Cc: keramida@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > As for if MS is usable..., I'll leave that for the user to decide. As far as MIME is concerned, everything after WIN 98 SE from Redmond isnt usable at all. There used to be a menu, file types, with MIME and extension, now it is only extension, MIME is still there but I couldnt find it. Mmmaybe somewhere in the Registry... H. http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs106/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Dec 23 22:31:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352D737B401 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 22:31:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6702C43EE5 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 22:31:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from [212.227.126.160] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18QibN-0002ck-00; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:31:41 +0100 Received: from [80.133.102.6] (helo=moritz.alleswirdgruener) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18QibN-0000fF-00; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:31:41 +0100 Received: from moritz.alleswirdgruener (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgruener (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBO6SLBS000285; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:28:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost) by moritz.alleswirdgruener (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id gBO6HBNx000272; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:17:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:17:11 +0100 (CET) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@localhost To: "Chris Fox (Excell Data Corporation)" Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? In-Reply-To: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F101405939@df-muttley.dogfood> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, > hate Windows. Give it a rest, and help me become a good BSD citizen, > OK? Welcome, but please explain why there is no MIME menu in Windows anymore. Windows could be nice, if it were easier to manage, better documented etc. I really hate the Registry. H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Dec 23 23:32:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EC8837B401 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 23:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ha8000.center.wakayama-u.ac.jp (ha8000.center.wakayama-u.ac.jp [133.42.248.29]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E155343ED8 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 23:32:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s030037@center.wakayama-u.ac.jp) Received: from wicked (alt.sys.wakayama-u.ac.jp [133.42.147.113]) by ha8000.center.wakayama-u.ac.jp (8.11.6/8.11.2) with SMTP id gBO7WfI01394 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:32:41 +0900 Message-ID: <002401c2ab1e$bbd32220$71932a85@wicked> From: "Rafael Sierra" To: Subject: Alternate boot Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:01:46 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello everyone I am trying to install FreeBSD on a (non-standard) machine that can't boot from cds and also lacks floppy drive. The machine can already boot dos. The question: Is there anyway to make a Harddisk bootable in order to start the FreBSD installation program? Thanks in advance Rafael To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Dec 24 3: 8:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E81137B401 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 03:08:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (f130.sea1.hotmail.com [207.68.163.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C9243ED8 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 03:08:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crollins666@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 02:51:40 -0800 Received: from 216.19.22.118 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:51:40 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.19.22.118] From: "clayton rollins" To: a-chrisf@exchange.microsoft.com Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: RE: MS and BSD partiality; was: MS panel applets Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:51:40 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Dec 2002 10:51:40.0781 (UTC) FILETIME=[70BEF1D0:01C2AB3A] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >"Chris Fox (Excell Data Corporation)" >wrote: > > > >Really, guys, I didn't sign up for these lists to read most of that >slashdot MS-bashing. Yeah I work here, sue me, but I really like BSD >and I would rather learn about it without hearing about how much people >hate Windows. Give it a rest, and help me become a good BSD citizen, >OK? Chris, I understand if you've taken some comments, and I can understand if you're quick to react as a result of that. But, I don't think anyone here is "MS-bashing." Of the few negative comments, none have had anything to do directly with whether or not windows is a good OS. (and, certainly none were meant as an attack against you.) The only thing that was said that borders on that was that NTFS is hard to recover in the event of a system crash. (I think even Gates would have to agree on that one...) On a serious note, though, I was afraid to ask any questions during my early learning, because I saw so many comments like this and heard so many people whine about how they just got told to rtfm. In my experience, the BSD people have never given me this sort of treatment (even when I've deserved it). The only reason I ever found out this was the case was because I subscribed to these lists and found out for myself. Bottom line, don't take it to heart if someone says "MS is crap." (You didn't write the whole thing, did you?) After all, these are BSD lists, and you'd expect to find some people with very deep attachment to unix and not MS. When you reply like this, it only adds to the problem by making these rivalries seem bigger than they are. (The best thing you could probably do is to ignore immature comments like that, anyways.) Peace, Clayton PS. just because someone has a handle at /. doesn't make their opinion right...(or important for that matter.) _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspamprotection_3mf To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Dec 24 4:53:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7749437B401 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 04:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (CM-lcon3-65-34.cm.vtr.net [200.83.65.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8049543EEC for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 04:53:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pongtep_n@hotmail.com) Reply-To: Message-ID: <001a88b05d7c$4288d8b1$5ce37ed3@latgib> From: To: Subject: Pnykre Are you ready? Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 05:47:19 +0700 MiME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: {%xmailer%} Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Discover the lowest rates available for term life insurance! Permanent Coverages (Whole/Universal/Burial) also available! Perfect health is not required. Fill out our short online form to see the low rate you qualify for. Save up to 72% from regular rates! http://www.inchantment.com/538754/textc.php The quote is free, and there is no obligation. Smokers accepted! Representing quality nationwide carriers. Act now! From the name BRITTANIA To get off our preferred consumer database go to http://www.inchantment.com/538754/nomore.php Please allow 48-72 hours to take effect. 263l3 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Dec 24 5:39:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FF2637B401 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 05:39:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.24cl.com (174.113.sn.ct.dsl.thebiz.net [216.238.113.174]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0FF243EDC for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 05:39:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from myraq@mgm51.com) Received: from notebloat (unknown [10.0.1.32]) by home.24cl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FC829491; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:39:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200212240839210401.001ED88C@home.24cl.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.30.00.00 (4) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:39:21 -0500 Reply-To: myraq@mgm51.com From: "MikeM" To: "Heiko Recktenwald" Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12/24/2002 at 7:17 AM Heiko Recktenwald wrote: |Hi, | |> hate Windows. Give it a rest, and help me become a good BSD citizen, |> OK? | |Welcome, but please explain why there is no MIME menu in Windows anymore. ... ============= what does this have to do with FreeBSD? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Dec 24 7:14:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D9137B401 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.183]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86FB643ED8 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:14:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from [212.227.126.160] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18Qql5-0001PC-00; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:14:15 +0100 Received: from [80.133.101.69] (helo=moritz.alleswirdgruener) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18Qql4-0005Us-00; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:14:14 +0100 Received: from moritz.alleswirdgruener (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgruener (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBOFArPC000265; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:10:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost) by moritz.alleswirdgruener (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id gBOF56hK000248; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:05:06 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:05:06 +0100 (CET) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@localhost To: MikeM Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? In-Reply-To: <200212240839210401.001ED88C@home.24cl.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > |Welcome, but please explain why there is no MIME menu in Windows anymore. > ... > ============= > > what does this have to do with FreeBSD? Because it is a standard and so easy on FreeBSD. Or Linux. Transparency of the system. H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Dec 24 7:23: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2010337B401 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D383E43EC5 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:22:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@bramp.freeserve.co.uk) Received: from andrew ([80.6.196.79]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20021224152253.LSLY20174.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@andrew>; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:22:53 +0000 Message-ID: <005901c2ab60$543c4000$0100a8c0@andrew> From: "Andrew Brampton" To: "Heiko Recktenwald" , References: Subject: Re: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:22:52 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is not a windows flaming list, and do we care if windows doesn't have X or Y, FreeBSD lacks some features that windows has, and windows lacks some of FreeBSD features, because they were made for different tasks, and by different people that prioritised things differently. Is it not time for this thread to die? Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heiko Recktenwald" To: "MikeM" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 3:05 PM Subject: RE: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? > > |Welcome, but please explain why there is no MIME menu in Windows anymore. > > ... > > ============= > > > > what does this have to do with FreeBSD? > > Because it is a standard and so easy on FreeBSD. Or Linux. > Transparency of the system. > > > H. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Dec 24 15:43:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DCFB37B401; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:43:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from inbox.ru (cblmdm205-162-223-74.buckeye-express.com [205.162.223.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D31F43ED1; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:43:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from remstroy12@inbox.ru) From: "remstroy12" Subject: Предлагаем ремонты квартир Reply-To: remstroy12@inbox.ru X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Organization: remstroy12 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1251" Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 02:43:35 +0300 Message-Id: <20021224234315.0D31F43ED1@mx1.FreeBSD.org> To: undisclosed-recipients: ; Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Бригада опытных мастеров (Москвичей) выполнит комплексные ремонты квартир, по самым доступным ценам (цена от 35 у.е. за метр). Наш E-mail: remstroy12@inbox.ru To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Dec 24 22:36:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3075F37B405 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 22:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5EA643EB2 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 22:36:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from [212.227.126.160] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18R59D-0006Tf-00; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 07:36:07 +0100 Received: from [80.133.99.100] (helo=moritz.alleswirdgruener) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18R59C-00023r-00; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 07:36:07 +0100 Received: from moritz.alleswirdgruener (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgruener (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBP6WH3F000276; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 07:32:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost) by moritz.alleswirdgruener (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id gBP5xIux000194; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 06:59:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 06:59:18 +0100 (CET) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@localhost To: Andrew Brampton Cc: newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? In-Reply-To: <005901c2ab60$543c4000$0100a8c0@andrew> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This is not a windows flaming list, and do we care if windows doesn't have X > or Y, FreeBSD lacks some features that windows has, and windows lacks some > of FreeBSD features, because they were made for different tasks, and by > different people that prioritised things differently. Its not a question of this or that, it is a question about standards in the net, usability in general. And I like MIME, like I like email. IMHO the cleanest implementation of MIME in a browser is still lynx with .mailcap and .mime-types, you have the association of a MIME type with an application and can teach the browser, which extension it should give the file for the application. Applications with hardcoded extensions.... Try this with Mozilla etc.. .mailcap etc, it was as simple as this in WIN 98SE and now it isnt anymore. And this isnt bashing, it is just an observation. TCP/IP illustrated III sotosay. And when we have some dear and noble person from Redmond on our list, why should I not ask him? ;-) Maybe he wants to reply and so I dont want this topic to die! H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Dec 25 3: 9:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9936937B401 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 03:09:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from fw.aub.dk (fw.aub.dk [195.24.1.195]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D58CB43EB2 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 03:09:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jacob@aub.dk) Received: (qmail 1708 invoked by uid 1000); 25 Dec 2002 11:09:36 -0000 Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 12:09:36 +0100 From: Jacob Atzen To: Heiko Recktenwald Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? Message-ID: <20021225110935.GA1701@morpheus.aub.dk> References: <20021222213257.GA1845@morpheus.aub.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 23, 2002 at 12:45:01AM +0100, Heiko Recktenwald wrote: > > a good story for the media. Started by a single person, spread on out > > through the net. > > Why should I care? I was simply trying to explain my point of view regarding the popularity of Linux. > And why should I use a unix lookalike workaround if I can have free BSD? Because it does somethings better or easier for you. 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Message-ID: <20021225194319.GQ690@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mail-Followup-To: "Chris Fox (Excell Data Corporation)" , newbies@freebsd.org References: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F101405939@df-muttley.dogfood> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F101405939@df-muttley.dogfood> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org # a-chrisf@exchange.microsoft.com / 2002-12-23 19:27:33 -0800: > From: John Murphy [mailto:jfm@blueyonder.co.uk] > Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 5:27 PM > To: newbies@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: MS panel applets; was: BSD or Linux? > > > "Chris Fox (Excell Data Corporation)" > wrote: > > >>And view the things of course :-) You can launch Word et al from the > >command > >>line within Windows but doing it from an old fashioned DOS prompt > >>won't > >get > >>you very far. It doesn't truly count as the command line if it needs > >>a > >GUI > >>also running to get any worthwhile results. > > >Your mailer seems to be wrapping quoted text, adding something called > smime.p7s > >and removing your contribution. > > It isn't my mailer, it's my clumsy fingers; I somehow hit send just as I > was starting to type. your MUA *does* screw up quoted text, I believe you can see when the message gets back to you from the list. could you please do something about it, please? of course, I mean in future FreeBSD-related postings. that is to say: this thread should have been dead long ago. anybody who wants to go on comparing apples to oranges is free to do so on advocacy@. please! -- If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore your message. see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Dec 25 11:59:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD9A37B401 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 11:59:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.bellavista.cz (mail.bellavista.cz [62.168.44.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FD943E4A for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 11:59:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neuhauser@bellavista.cz) Received: from freepuppy.bellavista.cz (freepuppy.bellavista.cz [10.0.0.10]) by mail.bellavista.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D826294; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 20:59:14 +0100 (CET) Received: by freepuppy.bellavista.cz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EEE002FDAB2; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 20:59:10 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 20:59:10 +0100 From: Roman Neuhauser To: clayton rollins Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: threading [was: Re: MS and BSD partiality; was: MS panel applets] Message-ID: <20021225195910.GR690@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mail-Followup-To: clayton rollins , freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org References: <0A0B36F65A314D4AB8D2CF1D1FD835F101405939@df-muttley.dogfood> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org # crollins666@hotmail.com / 2002-12-24 10:51:40 +0000: > Subject: RE: MS and BSD partiality; was: MS panel applets Chris, I know the References: header is OPTIONAL according to RFC 822; many take advantage of it nonetheless. Your MUA dosn't include it in outgoing messages, which, together with changing Subject: breaks threading. Could you please either use a MUA that creates the References: header, or keep Subject: unchanged? Thank you! -- If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore your message. see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Dec 26 5:12:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E8AA37B401 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 2002 05:12:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F51743ED8 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 2002 05:12:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from [212.227.126.161] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18RXol-0005dj-00; Thu, 26 Dec 2002 14:12:55 +0100 Received: from [80.133.98.101] (helo=moritz.alleswirdgruener) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18RXol-0001IQ-00; Thu, 26 Dec 2002 14:12:55 +0100 Received: from moritz.alleswirdgruener (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgruener (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBQD9N1d000579; Thu, 26 Dec 2002 14:09:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost) by moritz.alleswirdgruener (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id gBQ54uWT000206; Thu, 26 Dec 2002 06:04:56 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 06:04:56 +0100 (CET) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@localhost To: Jacob Atzen Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD or Linux? In-Reply-To: <20021225110935.GA1701@morpheus.aub.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > And why should I use a unix lookalike workaround if I can have free BSD? > > Because it does somethings better or easier for you. If it doesn't you > shouldn't use it. I like /stand/sysinstall, handbook and faq, did I mention PicoBSD? But I miss video4linux. I think this is all. For the easy things, FreeBSD is easier for me. Best, H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Dec 26 16:41: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D000737B401 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 2002 16:41:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.bellavista.cz (mail.bellavista.cz [62.168.44.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0851443ED8 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 2002 16:41:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neuhauser@bellavista.cz) Received: from freepuppy.bellavista.cz (freepuppy.bellavista.cz [10.0.0.10]) by mail.bellavista.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88EA2294; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 01:40:55 +0100 (CET) Received: by freepuppy.bellavista.cz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CEC632FDB97; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 01:40:54 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 01:40:54 +0100 From: Roman Neuhauser To: clayton rollins Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: threading [was: Re: MS and BSD partiality; was: MS panel applets] Message-ID: <20021227004054.GM348@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mail-Followup-To: clayton rollins , freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org References: <20021225195910.GR690@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021225195910.GR690@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org # neuhauser@bellavista.cz / 2002-12-25 20:59:10 +0100: > # crollins666@hotmail.com / 2002-12-24 10:51:40 +0000: > > Subject: RE: MS and BSD partiality; was: MS panel applets > > Chris, I meant Clayton, of course. > I know the References: header is OPTIONAL according to RFC 822; many > take advantage of it nonetheless. Your MUA dosn't include it in > outgoing messages, which, together with changing Subject: breaks > threading. Could you please either use a MUA that creates the > References: header, or keep Subject: unchanged? > > Thank you! -- If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore your message. see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Dec 27 19:10: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B137337B401 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 19:10:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3245143ED4 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 19:10:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (sue@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBS3A3NS048729 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 19:10:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from sue@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gBS3A3BA048727 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 19:10:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 19:10:03 -0800 (PST) From: Sue Blake Message-Id: <200212280310.gBS3A3BA048727@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD-Newbies First Aid Kit (This is a regular posting to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. It is also available at http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/) FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG is the place to send all questions about installing, configuring, running and using FreeBSD. All help requests are handled by FreeBSD-Questions, including newbies questions. FreeBSD-Newbies is different. We don't ask for help or answer how-to questions. It is a discussion forum for newbies. FreeBSD-Newbies provides a place for new FreeBSD users to meet and covers any of the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD community. We take our problems and support questions to freebsd-questions, and use freebsd-newbies to meet others who are doing the same things that we do as newbies. One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: When something doesn't work the way you expect 1. First look at the errata for your release of FreeBSD at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/releases/ for the latest information and security advisories. 2. Search the Handbook, FAQ, and mail archives at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/search.html 3. If you still have a question or problem, collect the output of `uname -a' and of any relevant program(s) and email your question to FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. Mailing lists When you have a problem that you can't solve by yourself, there's only one support mailing list and that's FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. FreeBSD-questions helps with installation and basic setup as well as more general and advanced questions. You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to you personally as well as to the list. Just make sure you have read and followed the guidelines for posting, because you might find them different to what you're used to. If you do subscribe to freebsd-questions you'll have the advantage of seeing all of the recent questions and their answers. Before you post to FreeBSD-questions, please read the guidelines at http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Many of the people who answer FreeBSD-questions are very knowledgeable, but they get frustrated when they get questions which are difficult to understand. http://www.lemis.com/email.html is worth reading too. If you're not sure that you can follow these guidelines, come back and ask the other newbies for help on how to post an effective question to the support mailing list. Maybe your question has been asked before. If you search the mailing list archives at http://www.freebsd.org/search.html first you might get the answer right away. It's always worth trying. Other mailing lists (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-CHARTERS) cover specialised areas and many are more developer-oriented. You'll need to read their charters carefully before participating, but it's probably a good idea to ask on either -newbies or -questions for advice about where to post a more specialised question. FreeBSD-announce is a very low volume read-only list for occasional announcements, such as notice of new releases, and the Really Quick Newsletter. It's worth subscribing to FreeBSD-announce too. Manuals You'll always be expected to show that you have made some effort to use the available documentation before asking for help. That's not always as easy as it sounds! If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right direction. Anyone interested in writing or reviewing documentation for FreeBSD is encouraged to join the FreeBSD Documentation Project. Details are at http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/docproj.html Other resources A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/projects/newbies.html to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant information quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and links to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If you have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. But I have seen people asking questions here! It is quite common for people to send the wrong kind of post to a mailing list. Because we're newbies it'll certainly happen here from time to time. The best thing to do if you see a message that doesn't belong on a list is to ignore it. There's always someone around whose job it is to sort these problems out privately. The posts to the lists go straight through, whatever their content. It is going to be confusing for a little while because we're all newbies so we all make mistakes. That's OK. One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting questions, believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the situation will snowball. There's nothing wrong with helping someone to redirect their question to freebsd-questions, but please do so gently. There's nothing wrong with the occasional mistake either. So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to freebsd-questions as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies can relax with other newbies and focus more on our successes than on our temporary imperfection. We can talk about things here that are not allowed on freebsd-questions. We're also a bit freer to make the mistakes that we need to make in order to learn. _________________________________________________________________ To Subscribe to FreeBSD-Newbies: Send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "subscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message. Mail sent to freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org appears on the mailing list. _________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Dec 28 1:58:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F3F37B401 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 01:58:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from server1.nebula.fi (server1.nebula.fi [194.100.171.240]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2067243EA9 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 01:58:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tuomas@mithlond.net) Received: (from ssl@localhost) by server1.nebula.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gBS9pa931194 for freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:51:36 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: server1.nebula.fi: ssl set sender to tuomas@mithlond.net using -f Received: from 153.1.57.116 ( [153.1.57.116]) as user mithlond1@mail9.nebula.fi by ssl.nebula.fi with HTTP; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:51:36 +0200 Message-ID: <1041069096.3e0d74287a138@ssl.nebula.fi> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:51:36 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?VHVvbWFzIFBlbGxvbnBlcuQ=?= To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org Subject: FreeBSD toolkit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 X-Originating-IP: 153.1.57.116 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, all! It was difficult for me to choose between freebsd-newbies and freebsd- questions. I ended up thinking that this list is the (more) proper place for my question. What is included in FreeBSD Toolkit (www.freebsdmall.com/cgi- bin/fm/bsdtool?id=JLLhBDeL&mv_pc=108)? What 'additional packages'? Since FreeBSD already comes with a huge collection of applications, how can anyone offer more? ;-) Kind regards, Tuomas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Dec 28 2: 0:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8554C37B401 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 02:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from server1.nebula.fi (server1.nebula.fi [194.100.171.240]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2878B43ED1 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 02:00:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tuomas@mithlond.net) Received: (from ssl@localhost) by server1.nebula.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gBS9rWP31658 for freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:53:32 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: server1.nebula.fi: ssl set sender to tuomas@mithlond.net using -f Received: from 153.1.57.116 ( [153.1.57.116]) as user mithlond1@mail9.nebula.fi by ssl.nebula.fi with HTTP; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:53:32 +0200 Message-ID: <1041069212.3e0d749cb23c9@ssl.nebula.fi> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:53:32 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?VHVvbWFzIFBlbGxvbnBlcuQ=?= To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org Subject: FreeBSD C library reference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 X-Originating-IP: 153.1.57.116 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, all! GNU C Library has its manual (http://www.gnu.org/manual/glibc- 2.2.3/libc.html). Does (Free)BSD C library has anything similar? If so, where can it be found/downloaded? Thanks for your time! Tuomas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Dec 28 2:49:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7038837B401 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 02:49:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from MAIL.KUBANnet.RU (rs240.KUBANnet.ru [212.192.128.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282DF43EA9 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 02:49:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pelicano@fpm.kubsu.ru) Received: from 212.192.133.4 ([212.192.133.4]) by MAIL.KUBANnet.RU (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id gBSAmEW08964 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:48:14 +0300 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:49:09 +0300 From: "Nikolay M. Pilyuk" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Reply-To: "Nikolay M. Pilyuk" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1503723687.20021228134909@fpm.kubsu.ru> To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need help installing FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <763565875.20021228134632@fpm.kubsu.ru> References: <20021227215602.55090.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> <763565875.20021228134632@fpm.kubsu.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello Venkat, hello, All! Saturday, December 28, 2002, 12:56:02 AM, you wrote: vr> My question is If I want to load it from a CD. What vr> should I write on the CD from the ftp site. I am too vr> confused with the directories in the ftp site. vr> Please help me what to download from the ftp site. And vr> are there any bootable images for the complete vr> installation process in the ftp site. Sure, BOTH 4.7-disc1.iso and 4.7-mini.iso (which are located under the ftp directory /pub/FreeBSD/ISO-IMAGES-i386/4.7/ at your nearest FreeBSD ftp mirror) ARE BOOTABLE and contain all you need to install FreeBSD. You must not download them both, since disc1 contains everything from the mini image. The difference is that mini allows you to only to install complete FreeBSD, but disc1 also contains a reasonable collection of third-party software (shells, archievers, net, systools, etc.). I recommend you to download the disc1 image, since you will have immediate access to a nice software collection on the CD. Discs 2,3,4 are only a software collections, you can download them, if you want or if the Internet bandwith is cheap for you. As for myself, I'm happy with disc1. :) -- Best regards, Nikolay mailto:pelicano@fpm.kubsu.ru To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Dec 28 7:54:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6596B37B401 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 07:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from scanmail3.cableone.net (scanmail3.cableone.net [24.116.0.123]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C340143EB2 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 07:54:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lute@cableone.net) Received: from scanmail3.cableone.net ([10.116.0.123]) by scanmail3.cableone.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Sat, 28 Dec 2002 08:53:12 -0700 Received: from scanmail3.cableone.net [24.116.0.123] by scanmail3.cableone.net (SMTPD32-7.04) id A8E3633400D2; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 08:53:07 -0700 Received: from agnes (227-51.siocpe.cableone.net [24.116.227.51]) by mail.cableone.net with SMTP (MailShield v2.04 - WIN32 Jul 17 2001 17:12:42); Sat, 28 Dec 2002 08:53:07 -0700 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 09:50:57 -0600 From: Lute Mullenix To: "Nikolay M. Pilyuk" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need help installing FreeBSD Message-Id: <20021228095057.751ae8ce.lute@cableone.net> In-Reply-To: <1503723687.20021228134909@fpm.kubsu.ru> References: <20021227215602.55090.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> <763565875.20021228134632@fpm.kubsu.ru> <1503723687.20021228134909@fpm.kubsu.ru> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SMTP-HELO: agnes X-SMTP-MAIL-FROM: lute@cableone.net X-SMTP-PEER-INFO: 227-51.siocpe.cableone.net [24.116.227.51] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:49:09 +0300 "Nikolay M. Pilyuk" pondered: > Hello Venkat, hello, All! > > Saturday, December 28, 2002, 12:56:02 AM, you wrote: > {snip} > Discs 2,3,4 are only a software collections, you can download them, if > you want or if the Internet bandwidth is cheap for you. As for myself, > I'm happy with disc1. :) > One other option and it's the way I do it is to just download the floppy images and boot from floppy, then install the rest of the system via ftp site. I installed 4.3 from CD, but that was the last one, of course I was still on dial-up at that time. On the other hand if I had a CD burner.... Lute ********************** Dual Boot: * FreeBSD 4.7 RELEASE * Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 * ********************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Dec 28 15: 1:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715D337B401 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 15:01:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com (smtp-send.myrealbox.com [192.108.102.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF85643EC5 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 15:01:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mimerki@myrealbox.com) Received: from Rozinante mimerki@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [24.195.180.56] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with NetMail SMTP Agent $Revision: 3.22 $ on Novell NetWare; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 16:03:28 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Marcia Barrett Nice To: Tuomas =?iso-8859-1?q?Pellonper=E4?= , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD toolkit Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:01:33 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <1041069096.3e0d74287a138@ssl.nebula.fi> In-Reply-To: <1041069096.3e0d74287a138@ssl.nebula.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <02122818013303.00482@Rozinante> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday 28 December 2002 04:51 am, Tuomas Pellonperд wrote FreeBSD toolkit: | Hi, all! | | It was difficult for me to choose between freebsd-newbies and freebsd- | questions. I ended up thinking that this list is the (more) proper | place for my question. | | What is included in FreeBSD Toolkit (www.freebsdmall.com/cgi- | bin/fm/bsdtool?id=JLLhBDeL&mv_pc=108)? What 'additional packages'? | Since FreeBSD already comes with a huge collection of applications, | how can anyone offer more? ;-) | | Kind regards, | Tuomas | The packages available with the Toolkit are also available through the FreeBSD ports collection. Mostly the Toolkit is useful if you have a box that will be difficult to hook up to the internet or if you want to do the primary installation for someone who is less than perfectly computer literate or some other odd circumstances. (What specific packages are on the CDs will vary with release and so I won't hazard a guess.) Hope this helps, Marci -- Oh thou of noble birth meditate upon thy own tutelary deity." -The Tibetan Book of the Dead To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message