From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 10:20:38 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6BD537B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netpublishing.com (blackbox.netpublishing.com [209.237.225.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3957843FAF for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:20:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggilliss@netpublishing.com) Received: from netpublishing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netpublishing.com (8.12.8/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h36HKaL9045526 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggilliss@netpublishing.com) Received: (from ggilliss@localhost) by netpublishing.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h36HKZfc045525 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:20:35 -0700 From: "Gregory A. Gilliss" To: advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spook: AES, Covert, Intiso, LASINT, r00t, satellite, C4I, Eagle Fury Subject: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 17:20:39 -0000 This was posted on slashdot.org: http://www.linuxworld.com/2003/0401.tsu.html I would recommend that *everyone* read this today (Sunday) and ask your- selves whether the current FreeBSD distro (4.x or 5.x) meets the goals set out by this study? We've all seen the excreta of these and many other frustrations in the list archives. Can the FreeBSD core team address some of these issues and *market* the results to make FreeBSD a more worthwhile upgrade path than *any* Linux distro? I patently hope so! Pls cc: me as I am not currently subscribed. Thanx. G -- -- "You can't separate peace from freedom because greg@gilliss.com -- no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom." ICQ 123710561 -- - Malcolm X (1925-1965) 1 510 559 1840 (v) -- http://www.gilliss.com/greg/ PGP Key fingerprint 2F 0B 70 AE 5F 8E 71 7A 2D 86 52 BA B7 83 D9 B4 14 0E 8C A3 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 10:29:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDF2237B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0027943FD7 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:29:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfak@telus.net) Received: from plasma ([154.5.44.11]) by priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with SMTP id <20030406172912.CLIN9999.priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net@plasma>; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 11:29:12 -0600 Message-ID: <000401c2fc62$061306e0$c601a8c0@plasma> From: "Peter" To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" , References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:29:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 17:29:15 -0000 This was a very interesting article, theres also alot of comments about it on slashdot (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/05/2138238&mode=thread&tid=106), some things that you have to take into consideration with this article: - The user is _very_ Microsoft-centric (still running Windows 95, well..) - Apparentley the user doesn't seem to know what she is doing, she refers to a hardware upgrade as a "CPU Upgrade," and a CD-ROM as a "CD Player" - Some of the demands that are set forth in this article aren't achievable, because Microsoft isn't willing to do anything about them. All in all, take this article with a couple of grains of salt, as it is VERY biased towards Microsoft, and basically puts Linux down in the gutter, she also tried a bunch of the mainstream distros, but just different versions, and I really doubt it took her 18 months to complete this study. FreeBSD will never make the desktop market unless there are some changes made in the installation project, maybe there should be a DesktopBSD or something, but everything needs to be seemlessly intergrated, with only one option, not choosing between a bunch of different window managers and such. Also, if I want to install a FreeBSD desktop (which I did for my grandma), I dont want to have to be sitting there for 2 days installing all the "optional" ports packages making the system pretty, and functional at the same time. I hope this helps, but as I said, take this article with a VERY large grain of salt, maybe its your laughter for the weekend. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory A. Gilliss" To: Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 10:20 AM Subject: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO > I would recommend that *everyone* read this today (Sunday) and ask your- > selves whether the current FreeBSD distro (4.x or 5.x) meets the goals > set out by this study? We've all seen the excreta of these and many other > frustrations in the list archives. Can the FreeBSD core team address > some of these issues and *market* the results to make FreeBSD a more > worthwhile upgrade path than *any* Linux distro? I patently hope so! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 10:59:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC4137B407 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes61.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1C0843FCB for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:59:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfak@telus.net) Received: from plasma ([154.5.44.11]) by priv-edtnes61.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with SMTP id <20030406175958.MIPS19979.priv-edtnes61.telusplanet.net@plasma>; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 11:59:58 -0600 Message-ID: <000f01c2fc66$55958040$c601a8c0@plasma> From: "Peter" To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" , References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <000401c2fc62$061306e0$c601a8c0@plasma> <20030406175142.GA45554@netpublishing.com> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 10:59:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 18:00:00 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory A. Gilliss" To: "Peter" Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 10:51 AM Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO > Your swift reply indicates that you care with some degree of passion. > While I concur with you about the author's lack of clue (s/he confesses > as much in the beginning of the article), and the obvious slant in > favor of M$, neither of those facts discounts the article's validity, IMHO. Yes, I do have some degree of pation. > No, FreeBSD doesn't need/want to be a desktop OS, but I (and likely you) > use it as such. I think the points tat the author makes - uniform GUI, > correctness of programming, ability to drill down for more help, etc - > are uniform requirements for any OS, desktop or server or whatever. That > is why I went and posted the article, not because of the technicalities of > the article's viewpoint, but because the points apply to FreeBSD, Linux, > and Windows alike. I don't think it wants to be a desktop OS, but it would be pretty well suited for the purpose if people aimed for it to be one. I find that it responds much quicker then any of my other *nix desktops do, and in the end its easier to keep up to date and running. I do use it for my desktop, but I still think it needs more work on the binary packages for people with slower computers and such, one thing that I do love about the FreeBSD desktop experience, is the system has only what I want to be installed, say I install Redhat Linux, and it installs everything and the kitchen sink. This is not the case with FreeBSD. > I think the value of the article is that it details the end user viewpoint > from the perspective of a non-technician. We (I'm including you since you > installed a desktop for your Grandma) technicians tend to forget that the > user community doesn't have the intuition that we have, and we (wrongly) > assume that it is their responsibility to learn how to deal with the > arcana. I'm not saying "total rewrite", but I am saying that if a user > is presented with distribution choices on install, there needs to be a > mechanism that they can use to read more about what each distribution *is*, > how it differs from the others, and what requirements it places on the user > *before* the click "OK". This "ease of use" is an area that FreeBSD has > made progress in, but has yet to master *and* has not capitalized upon. > You'd be amazed how many people who use FreeBSd don't know that they can > cd /usr/port/...;make install distclean - and get a completely installed > application. I suggest that their ignorance is *not* their fault, but > that it is the responsibility of the core team and the community to work > to make users like the author *not* have the experience that the article > relates. I agree with some points of this article, but others I totally dont. I absolutley love the ports collection, and I believe that other people if they knew it exisited would be using it, however there are some Linux "gurus" who then switch to FreeBSD, do not take advantage of it even when it's there, and try and compile stuff by hand, and then wonder why it doesn't work. Ignorance in some cases is not their fault, in other cases it is. The FreeBSD handbook is a wonderful resource, that I point people at daily, but people seem to have a hard time following instructions, and some people give up to easily. One person that I help is also coming to me for help, that can easily be answered by A) going to google and doing a search or B) Looking in the handbook, and even when I attempt to help this person, he cant seem to follow the simple instructions of doing this first, then doing that. The same thing applys to my grandma, when I tell her to click on a specific thing, she goes ahead and clicks on another thing. In the end, sometime it is better that these people use Windows (well not really), but it is also better that some of these people are running a Windows server so that they can atleast "think" its secure, by not slapping up some ancient Linux or FreeBSD distro, and sticking it up on the net, and then getting rooted. You can do alot more damage with a *nix box then you can do with any Windows computer that has been "cracked." (Some people may disagree with this point) > > > G > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 12:32:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB6E37B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 12:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lilzcluster.liwest.at (lilzclust02.liwest.at [212.33.55.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B271843FA3 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 12:32:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from CM58-27.liwest.at by lilzcluster.liwest.at (8.10.2/1.1.2.11/08Jun01-1123AM) id h36JW4o0001141760; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:32:04 +0200 (MEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Daniela To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" , advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:32:39 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> In-Reply-To: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200304062132.39199.dgw@liwest.at> Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 19:32:16 -0000 On Sunday 06 April 2003 19:20, Gregory A. Gilliss wrote: > This was posted on slashdot.org: > > http://www.linuxworld.com/2003/0401.tsu.html > > I would recommend that *everyone* read this today (Sunday) and ask your= - > selves whether the current FreeBSD distro (4.x or 5.x) meets the goals > set out by this study? We've all seen the excreta of these and many ot= her > frustrations in the list archives. Can the FreeBSD core team address > some of these issues and *market* the results to make FreeBSD a more > worthwhile upgrade path than *any* Linux distro? I patently hope so! PLEASE don't give FreeBSD a GUI for installation and system configuration= =2E If the users want it, make another distribution. What I like best in FreeBSD is its user interface. I just love it. Upgrad= ing=20 the system and installing software from source is so easy (I'm just a=20 newbie). Sysinstall is really well-designed. It took me less than a day t= o=20 get acquainted with the user interface. Please don't change it. Regards, Daniela From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 12:47:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA61937B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 12:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE0E43F3F for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 12:47:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfak@telus.net) Received: from plasma ([154.5.44.11]) by priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with SMTP id <20030406194724.IJY4735.priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net@plasma>; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:47:24 -0600 Message-ID: <000401c2fc75$578b37f0$c601a8c0@plasma> From: "Peter" To: "Daniela" , "Gregory A. Gilliss" , References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <200304062132.39199.dgw@liwest.at> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 12:47:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 19:47:26 -0000 Never said anything about changing the GUI, but it does need some work, its hard for normal users to get with it, but I never want to see it become some kind of X11 GUI, I can pretty much go through /stand/sysinstall in my sleep, and thats how I want it to stay. There needs to be a DesktopBSD though. Just curious as how it would take you a day to get acquainted with the UI of /stand/sysinstall, its pretty straight forward IMHO. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniela" To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" ; Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 12:32 PM Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO PLEASE don't give FreeBSD a GUI for installation and system configuration. If the users want it, make another distribution. What I like best in FreeBSD is its user interface. I just love it. Upgrading the system and installing software from source is so easy (I'm just a newbie). Sysinstall is really well-designed. It took me less than a day to get acquainted with the user interface. Please don't change it. Regards, Daniela _______________________________________________ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 12:55:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F36337B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 12:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lilzcluster.liwest.at (lilzclust02.liwest.at [212.33.55.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C7243FAF for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 12:55:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from CM58-27.liwest.at by lilzcluster.liwest.at (8.10.2/1.1.2.11/08Jun01-1123AM) id h36Jt5o0001150760; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:55:05 +0200 (MEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Daniela To: "Peter" , "Gregory A. Gilliss" , Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:55:39 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <200304062132.39199.dgw@liwest.at> <000401c2fc75$578b37f0$c601a8c0@plasma> In-Reply-To: <000401c2fc75$578b37f0$c601a8c0@plasma> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200304062155.39903.dgw@liwest.at> Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 19:55:16 -0000 On Sunday 06 April 2003 21:47, Peter wrote: > Never said anything about changing the GUI, but it does need some work,= its > hard for normal users to get with it, but I never want to see it become > some kind of X11 GUI, I can pretty much go through /stand/sysinstall in= my > sleep, and thats how I want it to stay. > > There needs to be a DesktopBSD though. Just curious as how it would tak= e > you a day to get acquainted with the UI of /stand/sysinstall, its prett= y > straight forward IMHO. I don't mean only the sysinstall UI, I mean FreeBSD as a whole. Daniela From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 13:28:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79AA437B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0C68F43F3F for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:28:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitsune@gmx.co.uk) Received: (qmail 28081 invoked by uid 65534); 6 Apr 2003 20:28:31 -0000 Received: from ip68-109-49-234.lu.dl.cox.net (EHLO fortytwo.) (68.109.49.234) by mail.gmx.net (mp023-rz3) with SMTP; 06 Apr 2003 22:28:31 +0200 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:28:10 -0500 From: kitsune To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20030407162810.5442c03c.kitsune@gmx.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <200304062132.39199.dgw@liwest.at> References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <200304062132.39199.dgw@liwest.at> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.2claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 20:28:34 -0000 On Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:32:39 +0200 Daniela wrote: > On Sunday 06 April 2003 19:20, Gregory A. Gilliss wrote: > > This was posted on slashdot.org: > > > > http://www.linuxworld.com/2003/0401.tsu.html > > > > I would recommend that *everyone* read this today (Sunday) and ask your- > > selves whether the current FreeBSD distro (4.x or 5.x) meets the goals > > set out by this study? We've all seen the excreta of these and many other > > frustrations in the list archives. Can the FreeBSD core team address > > some of these issues and *market* the results to make FreeBSD a more > > worthwhile upgrade path than *any* Linux distro? I patently hope so! > > > > PLEASE don't give FreeBSD a GUI for installation and system configuration. > If the users want it, make another distribution. > > What I like best in FreeBSD is its user interface. I just love it. Upgrading > the system and installing software from source is so easy (I'm just a > newbie). Sysinstall is really well-designed. It took me less than a day to > get acquainted with the user interface. Please don't change it. > > Regards, > Daniela I agree FreeBSD was my first experience with a unix like OS and sysinstall was very easy to use. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 13:55:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EC3F37B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-86.apple.com [17.250.248.86]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6419543FAF for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:55:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rolnif@mac.com) Received: from asmtp02.mac.com (asmtp02-qfe3 [10.13.10.66]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h36KtQ0x016996 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com ([66.92.1.188]) by asmtp02.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HCXWSD00.K47 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:55:25 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:55:24 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: John Martinez To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <000401c2fc75$578b37f0$c601a8c0@plasma> Message-Id: <16586B0C-6872-11D7-B7DE-0003937C0B34@mac.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 20:55:27 -0000 On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 12:47 PM, Peter wrote: > Never said anything about changing the GUI, but it does need some > work, its > hard for normal users to get with it, but I never want to see it > become some > kind of X11 GUI, I can pretty much go through /stand/sysinstall in my > sleep, > and thats how I want it to stay. I tend to agree with this. The problem is that you are limited by the same GUI environments as Linux and every other UNIX operating system. Not that KDE is bad (I use it a lot still), but a FreeBSD desktop would need something to make it "unique" and more appealing to the normal user. Lots of eye candy. Or else, why would somebody choose DesktopBSD over one of the many desktop Linux distributions? I prefer BSD myself, and that's one of the reasons I went with a Mac with OS X. -john From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 15:48:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7773F37B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 15:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rasmus.uib.no (rasmus.uib.no [129.177.13.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5632243F75 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 15:48:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from are-harald.brenne@econ.uib.no) Received: from (billfish) [129.177.43.16] 4.12) id 192Ivm-0002iv-00; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 00:48:06 +0200 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 00:48:05 +0200 From: Are-Harald Brenne To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20030407004805.0000112c.are-harald.brenne@econ.uib.no> In-Reply-To: <000f01c2fc66$55958040$c601a8c0@plasma> References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <000401c2fc62$061306e0$c601a8c0@plasma> <20030406175142.GA45554@netpublishing.com> <000f01c2fc66$55958040$c601a8c0@plasma> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.10claws (GTK+ 1.3.0; Win32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-checked-clean: by exiscan on rasmus X-Scanner: a086326a112c2a7e317511d97929a6b2 http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: -16 hits, 8.0 required X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found; * -6.6 -- Has a valid-looking References header * -3.3 -- Has a In-Reply-To header * 0.7 -- BODY: Contains a line >=199 characters long * -7.0 -- Message received from UIB Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 22:48:14 -0000 I went from Windows to Mandrake and then FreeBSD half a year ago. One important reason for me to chose FreeBSD over some Linux distro was that the Linux "scene" is fragmented, but there is only one FreeBSD. I am a computer hobbyist. I think the handbook can be intimidating for new users (it was for me). Installing FreeBSD looks like a hard and complicated procedure, but it is really quite easy and straight forward. I think perhaps a "pocket handbook" aimed to get new users going with an installation and then refering them to where they can learn more could attract more users. Writing more documentation is probably easier than writing new code :-P I had to struggle a bit to set up XF86Config and internet access in the beginning. An X frontend to ports and packages would also be usefull I think. It could perhaps be easy to let sysinstall set up one of the package ftp mirrors as a remote package site automatically, with an entry in make.conf. What if sysinstall included a menu option for "newbie", which didn't ask a lot of questions, sat up X and internet and installed software like KDE, OOo and mlplayer and perhaps some system administration frontends? cheers, Are-Harald From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 15:54:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A690737B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 15:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web11805.mail.yahoo.com (web11805.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.159]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8887C43FA3 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 15:54:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030406225453.19859.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.96.6] by web11805.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 06 Apr 2003 15:54:53 PDT Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 15:54:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Haikal Saadh To: Are-Harald Brenne , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20030407004805.0000112c.are-harald.brenne@econ.uib.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 22:54:55 -0000 --- Are-Harald Brenne wrote: > *snip* > I had to struggle a bit to set up XF86Config and internet access in > the beginning. An X frontend to ports and packages would also be > usefull I think. It could perhaps be easy to let sysinstall set up > one of the package ftp mirrors as a remote package site > automatically, with an entry in make.conf. Recently, I've been using XFree86 -configure from the command line rather than use the GUI configurator. Seems to do better job at detecting hardware than the GUI one, which more often than not, seems to crash on startup. Maybe because I've been working with laptops and boxes with cheap display cards... The automatic setting of the package mirror would be a _really_ nice feature. *snip* __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 16:34:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A25637B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from protov.plain.co.nz (protov.plain.co.nz [202.36.174.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7400143F93 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:34:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zombie@i4free.co.nz) Received: from i4free.co.nz (ppp65143.cyberxpress.co.nz [202.49.65.143]) by protov.plain.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035333CE0F for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:33:17 +1200 (NZST) Message-ID: <3E90B919.8020207@i4free.co.nz> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:32:41 +1200 From: Andrew Turner User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <000401c2fc62$061306e0$c601a8c0@plasma> <20030406175142.GA45554@netpublishing.com> <000f01c2fc66$55958040$c601a8c0@plasma> <20030407004805.0000112c.are-harald.brenne@econ.uib.no> In-Reply-To: <20030407004805.0000112c.are-harald.brenne@econ.uib.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 23:34:20 -0000 Are-Harald Brenne wrote: > An X frontend to ports and packages would also be usefull I think. Like barry in ports (sysutils/barry) Andrew -- There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who dont. AlanH From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 16:39:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AED237B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes10-hme0.telusplanet.net (outbound02.telus.net [199.185.220.221]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CBD443F93 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfak@telus.net) Received: from plasma ([154.5.44.11]) by priv-edtnes10-hme0.telusplanet.net SMTP <20030406233923.XURD12335.priv-edtnes10-hme0.telusplanet.net@plasma>; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 17:39:23 -0600 Message-ID: <000401c2fc95$bfcc2930$c601a8c0@plasma> From: "Peter" To: "Andrew Turner" , References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com><000401c2fc62$061306e0$c601a8c0@plasma><20030406175142.GA45554@netpublishing.com><000f01c2fc66$55958040$c601a8c0@plasma><20030407004805.0000112c.are-harald.brenne@econ.uib.no> <3E90B919.8020207@i4free.co.nz> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:39:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 23:39:24 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Turner" To: Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 4:32 PM Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO > Are-Harald Brenne wrote: > > An X frontend to ports and packages would also be usefull I think. > > Like barry in ports (sysutils/barry) > Barry doesn't let you install ports though (as far as I know) it only lets you view what's installed, and browse. Correct me if Im wrong. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 17:45:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9835A37B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 17:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thalia.otenet.gr (thalia.otenet.gr [195.170.0.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1DD43FA3 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 17:45:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b199.otenet.gr [212.205.244.207]) by thalia.otenet.gr (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h370jHxW019919; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 03:45:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h370jEfx016652; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 03:45:14 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h370jC4D016651; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 03:45:12 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 03:45:12 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: John Martinez Message-ID: <20030407004512.GB16464@gothmog.gr> References: <000401c2fc75$578b37f0$c601a8c0@plasma> <16586B0C-6872-11D7-B7DE-0003937C0B34@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16586B0C-6872-11D7-B7DE-0003937C0B34@mac.com> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 00:45:27 -0000 On 2003-04-06 13:55, John Martinez wrote: >On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 12:47 PM, Peter wrote: >> Never said anything about changing the GUI, but it does need some >> work, its hard for normal users to get with it, but I never want to >> see it become some kind of X11 GUI, I can pretty much go through >> /stand/sysinstall in my sleep, and thats how I want it to stay. > > I tend to agree with this. > > The problem is that you are limited by the same GUI environments as > Linux and every other UNIX operating system. > > Not that KDE is bad (I use it a lot still), but a FreeBSD desktop > would need something to make it "unique" and more appealing to the > normal user. Lots of eye candy. Or else, why would somebody choose > DesktopBSD over one of the many desktop Linux distributions? I'm not sure what you mean by DesktopBSD, but there are a few valid reasons for switching from Linux to FreeBSD today. The most important of these can and do vary a lot from one user to the next, but a few that seem to often spring up in talks that I have with Linux and BSD users are: * Ease of installation. Some of the Linux distributions insist on firing up XFree86 right from the very start, which can be annoying when you just happen to have an unsupported video card or a mouse that fails to work automagically and needs tinkering of XF86Config. The console interface of sysinstall Just Works(TM). * Ease of upgrade. The fact that a base system exists and can be upgraded by running buildworld (well and a couple of other, almost simple, even for newbies, commands) is a big plus. A lot of Linux users that I know are annoyed by the conflicts and inter-dependencies of several packages some times. It's so much easier to grab the entire /usr/src tree with CVSup and build it all in one fell swoop, knowing that the developers have taken care of not breaking things by upgrading only parts of the source. * The ports. I can't even begin to enumerate the virtues of the ports when compared to some of the package management tools that I've seen. One of the most important ones is the fact that you can compile from source using *exactly* the options you want. As an example, I don't want my Emacs editor to have X11 support. I don't use its GUI anyway. Being able to run: # cd /usr/ports/editors/emacs21 # make WITHOUT_X11=yes install is something that I've grown to depend upon over the years. I'm sure there are more reasons why people might consider switching to FreeBSD. I probably forgot a lot of them. Other people will probably have their own, different reasons :-) If all these characteristics of FreeBSD are important to a user, then there isn't really a need for cute little icons of beastie to convince them that giving it all a try is a good idea. - Giorgos From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 18:46:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2973037B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 18:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2899B43FAF for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 18:46:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 6105551A6D; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:16:24 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:16:24 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: John Martinez Message-ID: <20030407014624.GC2392@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <000401c2fc75$578b37f0$c601a8c0@plasma> <16586B0C-6872-11D7-B7DE-0003937C0B34@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PuGuTyElPB9bOcsM" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16586B0C-6872-11D7-B7DE-0003937C0B34@mac.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 01:46:28 -0000 --PuGuTyElPB9bOcsM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] Long/short syndrome. On Sunday, 6 April 2003 at 13:55:24 -0700, John Martinez wrote: > On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 12:47 PM, Peter wrote: > >> Never said anything about changing the GUI, but it does need some >> work, its hard for normal users to get with it, but I never want to >> see it become some kind of X11 GUI, I can pretty much go through >> /stand/sysinstall in my sleep, and thats how I want it to stay. > > I tend to agree with this. > > The problem is that you are limited by the same GUI environments as > Linux and every other UNIX operating system. > > Not that KDE is bad (I use it a lot still), but a FreeBSD desktop > would need something to make it "unique" and more appealing to the > normal user. Lots of eye candy.=20 I don't think eye candy is the FreeBSD way. I also don't see any good reason to have a special "FreeBSD" GUI. It just means One More Thing To Learn. FWIW, there was a contest for a FreeBSD GUI a few years back, when we had pretty much nothing. Nobody competed, so we dropped the issue. > Or else, why would somebody choose DesktopBSD over one of the many > desktop Linux distributions? Because it's easier to use? More reliable? Faster? If you think it can't be easier to use than Linux if it has the same GUI, you're looking in the wrong place. > I prefer BSD myself, and that's one of the reasons I went with a Mac > with OS X. This is probably a good way to go if you like eye candy. Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. =20 For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html See complete headers for address and phone numbers --PuGuTyElPB9bOcsM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+kNhwIubykFB6QiMRAikcAKCry8ATHLzE09Zmakk/ho0PjTg66gCfYdgi MNmQWtLuRfJQutomJSp2Y7s= =Idli -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PuGuTyElPB9bOcsM-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 19:21:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADE637B401; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6140A43FBD; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:21:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rolnif@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h372LDPE018798; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com ([66.92.1.188]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HCYBVC00.766; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:21:12 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:21:11 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" From: John Martinez In-Reply-To: <20030407014624.GC2392@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-Id: <99C05E18-689F-11D7-B7DE-0003937C0B34@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 02:21:14 -0000 On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 06:46 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > I don't think eye candy is the FreeBSD way. I also don't see any good > reason to have a special "FreeBSD" GUI. It just means One More Thing > To Learn. > > FWIW, there was a contest for a FreeBSD GUI a few years back, when we > had pretty much nothing. Nobody competed, so we dropped the issue. I can see why. A unified desktop with the other UNIX and UNIX-like operating systems is a good thing, to an extent. I'm glad it's pretty much settled on the two big ones, even though there are many others out there for the minimalists. >> Or else, why would somebody choose DesktopBSD over one of the many >> desktop Linux distributions? > > Because it's easier to use? More reliable? Faster? Those are great points. Points that should be made when selling FreeBSD as a desktop OS, if that's what people want. > If you think it can't be easier to use than Linux if it has the same > GUI, you're looking in the wrong place. I'm not looking for a GUI in FreeBSD. I know the greatness of FreeBSD. I use it every day. I'm content with using KDE on a FreeBSD desktop, where needed. But what about somebody who can't configure X11 if their life depended on it? Right now, the uninitiated shy away and go to Linux for their "alternative" to the big one from Redmond. It's mainly because the GUI starts up at the beginning. >> I prefer BSD myself, and that's one of the reasons I went with a Mac >> with OS X. > > This is probably a good way to go if you like eye candy. > And a whole bunch of other reasons besides. I'm not saying that FreeBSD doesn't make a good desktop. I'm just saying that certain aspects of it need to be changed in order for it to get broader acceptance. If the FreeBSD powers don't want that, then so be it. I'll still continue to use it (and its cousins) because I prefer it to Linux for many of my applications and needs. -john From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 19:30:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C7637B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-97.apple.com [17.250.248.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A5D43F93 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:30:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rolnif@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h372U1PE020707 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com ([66.92.1.188]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HCYCA000.T6I; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:30:00 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:29:59 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) To: Giorgos Keramidas From: John Martinez In-Reply-To: <20030407004512.GB16464@gothmog.gr> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 02:30:05 -0000 On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 05:45 PM, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > I'm not sure what you mean by DesktopBSD, but there are a few valid > reasons for switching from Linux to FreeBSD today. The most important > of these can and do vary a lot from one user to the next, but a few > that > seem to often spring up in talks that I have with Linux and BSD users > are: > > * Ease of installation. Some of the Linux distributions insist on > firing up XFree86 right from the very start, which can be annoying > when you just happen to have an unsupported video card or a mouse > that fails to work automagically and needs tinkering of XF86Config. > > The console interface of sysinstall Just Works(TM). Sure. Works great. Just make X11 configuration a little easier for those who can't or don't want to. BTW, most of those other OSs have text install programs as well. Not that they're good when compared to sysinstall, but they're there. > * Ease of upgrade. The fact that a base system exists and can be > upgraded by running buildworld (well and a couple of other, almost > simple, even for newbies, commands) is a big plus. > > A lot of Linux users that I know are annoyed by the conflicts and > inter-dependencies of several packages some times. It's so much > easier to grab the entire /usr/src tree with CVSup and build it all > in one fell swoop, knowing that the developers have taken care of > not breaking things by upgrading only parts of the source. CVSup rules. I love it. RPM is too broad and has way too many options. This tells me that they're trying to make it do too much. > * The ports. I can't even begin to enumerate the virtues of the > ports > when compared to some of the package management tools that I've > seen. One of the most important ones is the fact that you can > compile from source using *exactly* the options you want. As an > example, I don't want my Emacs editor to have X11 support. I don't > use its GUI anyway. Being able to run: > Ports is the number one reason I continue to use FreeBSD. I'm glad OpenBSD also has ports. I'm also glad that they've started a Ports tree for Darwin/Mac OS X, too. > I'm sure there are more reasons why people might consider switching to > FreeBSD. I probably forgot a lot of them. Other people will probably > have their own, different reasons :-) > > If all these characteristics of FreeBSD are important to a user, then > there isn't really a need for cute little icons of beastie to convince > them that giving it all a try is a good idea. I agree wholeheartedly. But, it's not perfect. Nothing is. Take those strengths and make "FreeBSD a more worthwhile upgrade path than *any* Linux distro," as the original poster put it. -john From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 19:48:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC9E937B409 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E0443FAF for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:48:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 84BAA51A6D; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:17:55 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:17:55 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: John Martinez Message-ID: <20030407024755.GF2392@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030407014624.GC2392@wantadilla.lemis.com> <99C05E18-689F-11D7-B7DE-0003937C0B34@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="B0nZA57HJSoPbsHY" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <99C05E18-689F-11D7-B7DE-0003937C0B34@mac.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 02:48:05 -0000 --B0nZA57HJSoPbsHY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday, 6 April 2003 at 19:21:11 -0700, John Martinez wrote: > On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 06:46 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> If you think it can't be easier to use than Linux if it has the same >> GUI, you're looking in the wrong place. > > I'm not looking for a GUI in FreeBSD. I know the greatness of FreeBSD. > I use it every day. > > I'm content with using KDE on a FreeBSD desktop, where needed. But what > about somebody who can't configure X11 if their life depended on it? > Right now, the uninitiated shy away and go to Linux for their > "alternative" to the big one from Redmond. It's mainly because the GUI > starts up at the beginning. This is definitely a thing we can work on. It's pretty trivial to install the system with xdm, but we don't make it clear enough to the category of people who want it like that. >>> I prefer BSD myself, and that's one of the reasons I went with a Mac >>> with OS X. >> >> This is probably a good way to go if you like eye candy. > > And a whole bunch of other reasons besides. > > I'm not saying that FreeBSD doesn't make a good desktop. I'm just > saying that certain aspects of it need to be changed in order for it > to get broader acceptance. If the FreeBSD powers don't want that, > then so be it. I'll still continue to use it (and its cousins) > because I prefer it to Linux for many of my applications and needs. FreeBSD can definitely be improved for newcomers, no doubt. Don't misunderstand what I said before: I make my viewpoint clearer in the Daemon's Advocate columns, for example http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200208/dadvocate.html. Yes, we need better desktop support. No, I don't think we should repeat the mistakes that Microsoft made. If you want a Microsoft-like environment, you probably can't do better than Microsoft. My issue is how to make things easier for people who come from Microsoft, not to copy the environment from which they have come. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --B0nZA57HJSoPbsHY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+kObbIubykFB6QiMRAlCBAJ9z7ff9rdV4TWZnc7k1uDtiRx3KhgCgifkb ai+cgbwkufBnJuUYR/CLwQ0= =Cwqr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --B0nZA57HJSoPbsHY-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 21:08:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F286637B401 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rasmus.uib.no (rasmus.uib.no [129.177.13.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C29F43F85 for ; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:08:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from are-harald.brenne@econ.uib.no) Received: from (billfish) [129.177.43.16] 4.12) id 192Nw1-0006qi-00; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 06:08:41 +0200 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 06:08:41 +0200 From: Are-Harald Brenne To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20030407060841.0000691a.are-harald.brenne@econ.uib.no> In-Reply-To: <99C05E18-689F-11D7-B7DE-0003937C0B34@mac.com> References: <20030407014624.GC2392@wantadilla.lemis.com> <99C05E18-689F-11D7-B7DE-0003937C0B34@mac.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.10claws (GTK+ 1.3.0; Win32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-checked-clean: by exiscan on rasmus X-Scanner: ec46eb338e337e385a3ae83a9bb317ad http://tjinfo.uib.no/virus.html X-UiB-SpamFlag: NO UIB: -26 hits, 8.0 required X-UiB-SpamReport: spamassassin found; * -6.6 -- Has a valid-looking References header * -3.3 -- Has a In-Reply-To header * -3.2 -- BODY: Contains what looks like a quoted email text * 0.7 -- BODY: Contains a line >=199 characters long * -7.0 -- Message received from UIB * -6.5 -- Reply with quoted text Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 04:08:46 -0000 On Sun, 6 Apr 2003 19:21:11 -0700 John Martinez wrote: ... > But what > about somebody who can't configure X11 if their life depended on it? > Right now, the uninitiated shy away and go to Linux for their > "alternative" to the big one from Redmond. It's mainly because the GUI > starts up at the beginning. ... > I'm not saying that FreeBSD doesn't make a good desktop. I'm just > saying that certain aspects of it need to be changed in order for it to > get broader acceptance. I think relatively small changes in the intallation procedure could help _a_lot_. Everything is there, it just needs to be easier to install and set up. I recon one of the main competitive advantages of free operating systems is the (potential) ability to install all programs needed by the user 'out of the box' in half an hour. This is something MS Windows will never do. Currently FreeBSD doesn't take advantage of this. FreeBSD will not in the foreseeable future compete with Linux-based OS's in terms of hardware compatibility and games/multimedia use. But making FreeBSD easier to adapt for desktop/home use will attract more users. Cheers, Are-Harald From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 6 23:33:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744DD37B401; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 23:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9DC243FAF; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 23:33:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rolnif@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h376XQPE020079; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 23:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com ([66.92.1.188]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HCYNJQ00.EGR; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 23:33:26 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 23:33:21 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" From: John Martinez In-Reply-To: <20030407024755.GF2392@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 06:33:27 -0000 On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 07:47 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > ...My issue is > how to make things easier for people who come from Microsoft, not to > copy the environment from which they have come. > We don't disagree, Greg. -john From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 01:26:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD0C37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 01:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8EB643FB1 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 01:26:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.9/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h378OEMI076147; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:24:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <3E91360F.1090702@401.cx> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 10:25:51 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 08:26:05 -0000 This is a reply to this entire thread, not just the original posting. The original question was "does FreeBSD currently meet this users goals?" I would have to say no, it probably does not. But I think the real question is "do we want it to meet this users goal?" Im a big fan of FreeBSD. I use it every day. I have converted half of my coworkers from religions such as Sun, Linux, NT or Novell to FreeBSD. I try to help out on mailinglists and forums whenever I get the time and know the answers. I buy every release on CD eventhough most of them are still shrinkwrapped and never used. Basically, Im just one of the regular die-hard BSD fanatics you all know and love(?) ;). Still, my desktop runs XP. My laptop runs XP. My computer at work runs w2k. They are workstations. I use them to read email, browse the web and play games. I want them to show me pretty colorfull icons and do all the thinking for me. When I go home or go to bed, I turn them off. FreeBSD could probably do this for me, and in fact, a few of them do dualboot to fbsd even if its extremely rare. It would require a lot more time and tweaking to get things setup correctly if I had to run FreeBSD all the time. With Windows I just point and click a few times and things happen. So what if I have to format and reinstall everything everytime the guys in Redmond decide to change the color of the gui, I have absolutely nothing of importance on my workstations. Everything with even the slightest bit of value is safely tucked away on a fileserver somewhere. All my mails are stored on a IMAP server. My documentation is on the intranet website and my source code in the cvs repository. Guess what os all those servers run? It aint windows. FreeBSD is the most stable and reliable os I ever experienced, and I have tested most of them. Sun might give it a good fight, but then again Sun requires the budget of a small country where FreeBSD is one of very few os's that are truely free, both in price and license. The financial department loves FreeBSD's pricetag, the techies loves its ease of maintanance and upgrading, and I sleep well at night knowing my servers will keep running forever without glitches. I love FreeBSD, but not even I would get the idea to run it as a desktop. It's not good at it, and if someone asks for my opinion, I hope it never will be. Even Microsoft have realised that it takes a different os to run a server then a desktop. They have a plethora of different editions, like XP Home Edition and W2K Advanced Server. As long as FreeBSD excels on servers, chances are it will not make a perfect desktop. I say we have enough desktop os's, lets keep FreeBSD kicking ass on the servers. -- R Gregory A. Gilliss wrote: > This was posted on slashdot.org: > > http://www.linuxworld.com/2003/0401.tsu.html > > I would recommend that *everyone* read this today (Sunday) and ask your- > selves whether the current FreeBSD distro (4.x or 5.x) meets the goals > set out by this study? We've all seen the excreta of these and many other > frustrations in the list archives. Can the FreeBSD core team address > some of these issues and *market* the results to make FreeBSD a more > worthwhile upgrade path than *any* Linux distro? I patently hope so! > > Pls cc: me as I am not currently subscribed. Thanx. > > G > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 03:51:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF1037B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 03:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA9943F75 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 03:51:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0041.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.41] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 192UDr-0003fY-00; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 03:51:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3E9157E1.C3418DA8@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 03:50:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Are-Harald Brenne References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <000401c2fc62$061306e0$c601a8c0@plasma> <20030406175142.GA45554@netpublishing.com> <20030407004805.0000112c.are-harald.brenne@econ.uib.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4409bc65e6f3b6417521e425faaae7f49a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 10:51:47 -0000 Are-Harald Brenne wrote: > I think the handbook can be intimidating for new users (it was for me). > Installing FreeBSD looks like a hard and complicated procedure, but it > is really quite easy and straight forward. I think perhaps a "pocket > handbook" aimed to get new users going with an installation and then > refering them to where they can learn more could attract more users. > Writing more documentation is probably easier than writing new code :-P FreeBSD: An Open-Source Operating System for Your Personal Computer, Second Edition (with CD-ROM) Annelise Anderson The Bit Tree Press ISBN: 0971204519 -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 03:54:51 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9AF537B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 03:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3732C43FAF for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 03:54:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0041.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.41] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 192UGx-0000oe-00; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 03:54:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3E9158A5.4730042F@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 03:53:25 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Are-Harald Brenne References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <000401c2fc62$061306e0$c601a8c0@plasma> <20030406175142.GA45554@netpublishing.com> <20030407004805.0000112c.are-harald.brenne@econ.uib.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4409bc65e6f3b641706caeaa5a0a4b6eb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 10:54:51 -0000 Are-Harald Brenne wrote: > I had to struggle a bit to set up XF86Config and internet access in > the beginning. XF86Config is a hard problem to automate. The best way to deal with it is to "not deal with it". Specifically, http://www.ggi-project.org/ . -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 04:02:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD51B37B401; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 04:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5868743FB1; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 04:02:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0041.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.41] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 192UOM-0001au-00; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 04:02:23 -0700 Message-ID: <3E915A70.2B4B0197@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 04:01:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey References: <000401c2fc75$578b37f0$c601a8c0@plasma> <20030407014624.GC2392@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b2149eff1027d1f9a62e18759516dbdb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:02:24 -0000 Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > FWIW, there was a contest for a FreeBSD GUI a few years back, when we > had pretty much nothing. Nobody competed, so we dropped the issue. No one competed because there was no such thing as "winning" and becoming "the official default desktop install" for FreeBSD. It was very like entering a contest for "best new garage band", sponsored by a radio station, with the prize not including having your song played on the radio. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 04:55:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A08937B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 04:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC4143FA3 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 04:55:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0041.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.41] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 192VDw-0001nL-00; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 04:55:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3E9166B8.D39C8C04@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 04:53:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Martinez References: <16586B0C-6872-11D7-B7DE-0003937C0B34@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e832ae2e19aa75dd7587cbaafb85f2ee350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:55:48 -0000 John Martinez wrote: > The problem is that you are limited by the same GUI environments as > Linux and every other UNIX operating system. > > Not that KDE is bad (I use it a lot still), but a FreeBSD desktop would > need something to make it "unique" and more appealing to the normal > user. Lots of eye candy. Or else, why would somebody choose DesktopBSD > over one of the many desktop Linux distributions? Specific lack of annoying and distracting eye candy? One of the worst things to ever happen to computer usability and supportability is the "desktop theme" crap. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 05:01:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE5A37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isy.liu.se (isy.liu.se [130.236.48.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ABAB43FBF for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 05:01:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mj@isy.liu.se) Received: from isy.liu.se (tuttle.isy.liu.se [130.236.49.189]) by isy.liu.se (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h37C1mEc026078; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:01:48 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:02:28 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) To: John Martinez From: Michael Josefsson In-Reply-To: <16586B0C-6872-11D7-B7DE-0003937C0B34@mac.com> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:01:52 -0000 > A unique blend of desktop would be to imitate OS/2. I still find myself missing it a lot, after all these years. I have never come across a smoother interface. IceWM tries to but does not succeed. /Micke > Not that KDE is bad (I use it a lot still), but a FreeBSD desktop > would need something to make it "unique" and more appealing to the > normal user. Lots of eye candy. Or else, why would somebody choose > DesktopBSD over one of the many desktop Linux distributions? > > I prefer BSD myself, and that's one of the reasons I went with a Mac > with OS X. > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 06:23:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1BF237B40D for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 06:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC97743F3F for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 06:23:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h37DNo56006387; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:23:50 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 07:23:31 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <3E91360F.1090702@401.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 13:23:59 -0000 Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: [..snip..] > I love FreeBSD, but not even I would get the idea to run it as a > desktop. It's not good at it, and if someone asks for my opinion, I hope > it never will be. > Even Microsoft have realised that it takes a different os to run a > server then a desktop. They have a plethora of different editions, like > XP Home Edition and W2K Advanced Server. As long as FreeBSD excels on > servers, chances are it will not make a perfect desktop. > I say we have enough desktop os's, lets keep FreeBSD kicking ass on the > servers. Well, I'm just about 180 degrees different on the desktop OS theory as you are. I've been using FreeBSD as my desktop OS for several years now. I run it on my notebook (which I am using now), and my desktop. Both are my "workstations" - my desktop rarely gets rebooted, and of course my notebook is like my wallet, with me everywhere I go. It's actually the finest desktop OS I have ever used. Now, I do have XP installed on my notebook, but I rarely boot into it. In fact, I only do so to test Windows things for my users. I'm not a big fan of "super mario windows" looking GUI's (like the default XP setup - eek!), but I can appreciate a decent UI when I see one. Windows isn't there yet. Now, I'm a KISS (keep it simple, stupid) believer, so I run fluxbox. It's so darn easy to config, and so simple to use. Just for informations sake, I taught my wife to use FreeBSD as her desktop OS in about 15 minutes. She got used to fluxbox and used it like she has known it for years. Also, recently I showed a unix "newbie" FreeBSD, and let him play with is and several Linux os's, and he finally decided on FreeBSD because (in his words) "it's just so simple and easy to get things done". Just my $0.02. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Attitudes are contagious, is yours worth catching? ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 07:01:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7F237B408 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 07:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu (1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu [128.147.18.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2A9043F93 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 07:01:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:01:23 -0400 Message-ID: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A088D932B@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: advocacy@freebsd.org, "Gregory A. Gilliss" Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:01:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 14:01:26 -0000 Just an over all response, I think the biggest problem with the "Is BSD ready for the Desktop?", is the definition of desktop. It seems to me that term desktop has come to mean what every M$ wants it to mean. Myself I use BSD at home as my desktop. I'm at work now, and have no choice of what I can run. I don't dual boot at all anymore. I can check e-mail. I can browse the web. I can do word processing. I can watch DVDs, listen to mp3s and divx movies. I can write programs - since I'm a programmer. There are file sharing programs for people that do that - and they are all compatible with the windows versions. I can even play a game if I want. So what can't I do? I can't do anything proprietary! I can't play a game that is designed for windows. Just the same as a Mac user can't. I can open Word XP documents - can't do that on windows 98 either. I can't run Visual Studio or a VB program( why would I want to - but that's a different story)! But windows can't kde, gnome or thousands of other programs written for a *nix OS. But windows is generally regarded as the desktop os. I don't think anyone would say that Windows is not ready for the desktop because you can't run KOffice or ready a document saved in a KWord format. But, the same person will say that you BSD isn't ready because you can't run MS Word or MS Office. This may just be my perception though. What brought this to my mind is a commercial I see allot now. Juno internet service advertises that you can IM anyone using any other service such MSN, Yahoo and AOL. It states you can't do that with anyone else. Every time I see that I think to myself - hell I do that on FreeBSD with everybuddy! Just my $0.02!! Roderick Person Programmer (412)454-2616 personrp@ccbh.com http://www.ccbh.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 07:34:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5608D37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 07:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733B943FB1 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 07:34:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.9/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h37EWoMI078203; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:32:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <3E918C74.7020202@401.cx> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 16:34:28 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Anderson References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <3E91360F.1090702@401.cx> <3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 14:34:57 -0000 Eric Anderson wrote: > [..snip..] Well, I'm just about 180 degrees different on the > desktop OS theory as you are. I've been using FreeBSD as my > desktop OS for several years now. I run it on my notebook (which I > am using now), and my desktop. Both are my "workstations" - my > desktop rarely gets rebooted, and of course my notebook is like my > wallet, with me everywhere I go. > > It's actually the finest desktop OS I have ever used. Now, I do > have XP installed on my notebook, but I rarely boot into it. In > fact, I only do so to test Windows things for my users. I'm not a > big fan of "super mario windows" looking GUI's (like the default XP > setup - eek!), but I can appreciate a decent UI when I see one. > Windows isn't there yet. Now, I'm a KISS (keep it simple, stupid) > believer, so I run fluxbox. It's so darn easy to config, and so > simple to use. > > Just for informations sake, I taught my wife to use FreeBSD as her > desktop OS in about 15 minutes. She got used to fluxbox and used > it like she has known it for years. Also, recently I showed a unix > "newbie" FreeBSD, and let him play with is and several Linux os's, > and he finally decided on FreeBSD because (in his words) "it's just > so simple and easy to get things done". > > Just my $0.02. > > Eric > I agree with much of what you say, but I guess it all depends on what you use your computer for. When I do serious work, it usually means booting windows and then open a bunch of ssh sessions to the closest bsd machine. When I work, all I really do is console based, so if I do it from a windows machine via ssh or natively from a bsd console makes absolutely no difference to me. When I dont work I play games, I surf the web, look at movies, play mp3s or whatever, and in those areas, bsd has a long way to go. A big part, probably 95% or so, of all windows programs and applications are crap and not worth the diskspace they are written on, but there are some really usefull utilities out there, and I have so far not found their equals in fbsd. As for your wife, is she able to install from scratch, get XFree86 perfectly configured, sound working, printer installed and internet setup after a mere 15 minute lesson? No offense to your wife, but if she manages that, she is truly one of a kind. To be able to get a novice user to use a gui to surf and check email does not mean it is a good desktop os. The user should be capable of installing and setting up the gui themselves from scratch, without help or documentation. Ive been using fbsd heavily since 2.2.8, and I still get into furious fights with XFree everytime I try to get a decent gui started for the first time. What if a totally novice user wants to install a program? Im sure you all yell "ports!", and yes, ports is the best thing since sliced bread, but if you have no idea what it is or even what it does, it doesnt really help you. In windows, the user downloads the program or inserts a cd, double clicks on the shiny icon it creates on his/hers desktop and follows the onscreen instructions. Sure, it can fail and some users cant even do that without messing things up, but it sure takes a hell of a lot less knowledge then ports. Lets setup the network. Even an idiot would eventually find the "Network Neighbourhood" icon in windows and after some twiddling Im sure he/she would, accidently maybe but still, start one of the hundreds of wizards that tries to help you setup things. With a bit of luck, the wizard will even do its job and the network will be setup. In fbsd, you have to know that the right commands to do this is ifconfig and route (unless youre on dialup, then we have to deal with ppp, which doesnt exactly make it easier). You have to know that you can get help on each command by prepending it with 'man'. You have to know that to get out of a man page you press ^C. You have to know that to make the settings you do permanent you edit a file called /etc/rc.conf. To be able to do this you have to know how to edit a file. All of this is depending on that you actually got trough the install and got the box up and running in the first place. FreeBSD makes a great desktop *if you know how to use it*!! I could surely get by with a freebsd only desktop, but then again I have 6+ years of 8+ hours a day usage behind me. A user starting from scratch surely would hit a brickwall of questions, and anyone getting XFree running perfectly after the first run of xfconfig should recieve some kind of award. I love fbsd, and I frequently call it the best *os* ever written. It will take a long time before I call it the best *desktop*...hopefully, I will never have to do that. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 07:53:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE76D37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 07:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0001143F93 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 07:53:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h37ErI56017408; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 09:53:18 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E9182BC.6000501@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 08:53:00 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <3E91360F.1090702@401.cx> <3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> <3E918C74.7020202@401.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 14:53:24 -0000 Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: [..snip..] > As for your wife, is she able to install from scratch, get XFree86 > perfectly configured, sound working, printer installed and internet > setup after a mere 15 minute lesson? No offense to your wife, but if she > manages that, she is truly one of a kind. No, that wasn't really my point. My point was about UI's, and how a good user interface should be simple and easy to use, and "natural" to the user. Windows has this - but not because it's the best - only because it has years and years of being "the only one out there" that regular users see and interact with - if it's all they know, why would it *not* feel natural to them? > To be able to get a novice user to use a gui to surf and check email > does not mean it is a good desktop os. The user should be capable of > installing and setting up the gui themselves from scratch, without help > or documentation. Ive been using fbsd heavily since 2.2.8, and I still > get into furious fights with XFree everytime I try to get a decent gui > started for the first time. I somewhat disagree - most people use computers as a tool, and don't care to learn all the ins and outs of the os. Now, I personally want to know what is going on in the os, but my (for instance and example again) wife doesn't care. She doesn't care how it got to the point it is at, just as long as she can get what she needs to done. > What if a totally novice user wants to install a program? Im sure you > all yell "ports!", and yes, ports is the best thing since sliced bread, > but if you have no idea what it is or even what it does, it doesnt > really help you. In windows, the user downloads the program or inserts a > cd, double clicks on the shiny icon it creates on his/hers desktop and > follows the onscreen instructions. Sure, it can fail and some users cant > even do that without messing things up, but it sure takes a hell of a > lot less knowledge then ports. > Lets setup the network. Even an idiot would eventually find the "Network > Neighbourhood" icon in windows and after some twiddling Im sure he/she > would, accidently maybe but still, start one of the hundreds of wizards > that tries to help you setup things. With a bit of luck, the wizard will > even do its job and the network will be setup. > In fbsd, you have to know that the right commands to do this is ifconfig > and route (unless youre on dialup, then we have to deal with ppp, which > doesnt exactly make it easier). You have to know that you can get help > on each command by prepending it with 'man'. You have to know that to > get out of a man page you press ^C. You have to know that to make the > settings you do permanent you edit a file called /etc/rc.conf. To be > able to do this you have to know how to edit a file. All of this is > depending on that you actually got trough the install and got the box up > and running in the first place. Totally agree - but almost all "totally novice users" never install an OS, set up networking, or for that matter read manuals. Now, I'm not saying it shouldn't be easy to do, but I think there are two separate needs to be filled. One, which satisfies all of us "techies", is already there, and we already use it. The second, which we are discussing now, is not present in FreeBSD, almost by design - and that is the "simple setup" for a GUI and desktop configuration. My point is that it is possible to have FreeBSD do the things required of a desktop OS for 90% of the users out there, there's just no simple means of getting there. You are obviously in group one, and prefer to keep it that way. I'm definitely all for keeping FreeBSD in the same vision and style as it has had for quite some time, however, I'm definitely not opposed to having someone come up with an option to sysinstall for "newbies" that slams the machine into a stupified state to snag the would-be windows users. What I'd ultimately like to see, is a sysinstall that has an option to install several types of "pre-canned" setups, like web server, mail server, nfs server, desktop, firewall, etc, so a user could pick it right from the menu, the os would install and configure the basics for that setup, and leave them with a somewhat config'd machine ready to roll. Simple, effective, and helpful to those who don't "know" FreeBSD very well. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Attitudes are contagious, is yours worth catching? ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 08:36:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66A9037B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netpublishing.com (blackbox.netpublishing.com [209.237.225.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C6F43F75 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:36:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggilliss@netpublishing.com) Received: from netpublishing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netpublishing.com (8.12.8/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h37Fa0L9051982 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:36:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggilliss@netpublishing.com) Received: (from ggilliss@localhost) by netpublishing.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h37Fa0S1051981 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:36:00 -0700 From: "Gregory A. Gilliss" To: advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030407153600.GA51613@netpublishing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spook: AES, Covert, Intiso, LASINT, r00t, satellite, C4I, Eagle Fury Subject: Look what a mess I made (was Brilliant and very useful...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 15:36:01 -0000 Happy Monday. I've lurked a while in the hope that my initial topic would come around again...finally. The following excerpt makes my point for me: > I somewhat disagree - most people use computers as a tool, and don't > care to learn all the ins and outs of the os. Now, I personally want to > know what is going on in the os, but my (for instance and example again) > wife doesn't care. She doesn't care how it got to the point it is at, > just as long as she can get what she needs to done. Thanx to Eric Andersen who "got it". My initial post (the article being debated) was *not* about the following: Desktops GUIs or X or window managers Anything else other than - good tools require no instruction How many posters actually *read* the article? Or did I just start yet another *BSD flame war? No *wonder* this best-of-breed product languishes while (bleh) Linux increases market share (and PR share - FreeBSD PR sucks, compared to M$ and - bleh - Linux). Here's the link (in case it got lost): http://www.linuxworld.com/2003/0401.tsu.html The point - the reason that I thought that this article has value - is that the FreeBSD community doesn't - dare I say it - pander - to the user community. We act like the intelligencia of *NIX - AND IT IS COSTING US THE USER BASE. Good tools require no instruction. That was the point, not the rest of this didactic cruft. Who among you ever read the instructions for a phone (not a cordless multi- frequency-answering-machine-GPS-breathalyzer phone, but the unbox-it-plug- it-in-listen-for-dial-tone phone? Or a hammer? When FreeBSD can, out of the box, be a tool that clueless newbies (and we were *all* clueless newbies once) can install and configure on their own (just like - bleh - Windows), then we can all sit back and be arrogant (again - but not until then). G -- -- "You can't separate peace from freedom because greg@gilliss.com -- no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom." ICQ 123710561 -- - Malcolm X (1925-1965) 1 510 559 1840 (v) -- http://www.gilliss.com/greg/ PGP Key fingerprint 2F 0B 70 AE 5F 8E 71 7A 2D 86 52 BA B7 83 D9 B4 14 0E 8C A3 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 09:08:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4591B37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 09:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 263D543F93 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 09:08:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h37G8556027767; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:08:05 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E91A265.1020906@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:08:05 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" References: <20030407153600.GA51613@netpublishing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Look what a mess I made (was Brilliant and very useful...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 16:08:07 -0000 Gregory A. Gilliss wrote: > Happy Monday. > > I've lurked a while in the hope that my initial topic would come around > again...finally. The following excerpt makes my point for me: > > >>I somewhat disagree - most people use computers as a tool, and don't >>care to learn all the ins and outs of the os. Now, I personally want to >>know what is going on in the os, but my (for instance and example again) >>wife doesn't care. She doesn't care how it got to the point it is at, >>just as long as she can get what she needs to done. > > > Thanx to Eric Andersen who "got it". > [..snip..] > The point - the reason that I thought that this article has value - > is that the FreeBSD community doesn't - dare I say it - pander - to > the user community. We act like the intelligencia of *NIX - > AND IT IS COSTING US THE USER BASE. > > Good tools require no instruction. That was the point, not the rest of > this didactic cruft. Now, all I need is to figure out how to tweak sysinstall and add some "newbie" features that "do it all".. maybe a committer that knows the sysinstall gunk will see this.. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Attitudes are contagious, is yours worth catching? ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 11:00:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1BF37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 063CC43FBD for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:00:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: from blackhelicopters.org (mwlucas@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blackhelicopters.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h37I0GDn077716; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:00:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h37I0CCW077715; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:00:12 -0400 From: "Michael W . Lucas" To: Eric Anderson Message-ID: <20030407140012.A77600@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20030407153600.GA51613@netpublishing.com> <3E91A265.1020906@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3E91A265.1020906@centtech.com>; from anderson@centtech.com on Mon, Apr 07, 2003 at 11:08:05AM -0500 cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: Re: Look what a mess I made (was Brilliant and very useful...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 18:00:19 -0000 On Mon, Apr 07, 2003 at 11:08:05AM -0500, Eric Anderson wrote: > Now, all I need is to figure out how to tweak sysinstall and add some > "newbie" features that "do it all".. maybe a committer that knows the > sysinstall gunk will see this.. We're all afraid of sysinstall. Sysinstall has eaten up any number of developers and spit out their steaming bones. Seriously, patches are welcome. Please. ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@FreeBSD.org, mwlucas@BlackHelicopters.org http://www.BlackHelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Absolute BSD: http://www.AbsoluteBSD.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 11:08:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA1837B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thor.acuson.com (thor.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFAAE43F75 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:08:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0HCZ00BSUJOSST@thor.acuson.com> for advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 10:58:25 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-117.acuson.com ([157.226.46.117]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id GNSX25DJ; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 10:59:49 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:07:40 -0700 From: Johnson David In-reply-to: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" , advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: <200304071107.40633.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Organization: Siemens Medical Systems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 18:08:09 -0000 On Sunday 06 April 2003 10:20 am, Gregory A. Gilliss wrote: > This was posted on slashdot.org: > > http://www.linuxworld.com/2003/0401.tsu.html > > I would recommend that *everyone* read this today (Sunday) and ask > your- selves whether the current FreeBSD distro (4.x or 5.x) meets > the goals set out by this study? Frankly, the expections set forth by the reviewer are unrealistic. She wants a Windows clone. She wants a new operating system while not changing anything in how she works. By her own admission, not even Windows XP meets the criteria! (btw, it was a review, not a study) I don't think FreeBSD will ever be a "newbie" system. Sorry guys, but I don't. By "newbie" system I mean something that you click "OK" and it installs and works with no additional configuration for anything. The only way we could reach this state without compromising other goals is to have FreeBSD preinstalled on OEM systems. But that doesn't mean FreeBSD isn't suitable for a desktop system. Indeed, it already is. FreeBSD is what I use at home and at work on my desktops. The only time I boot into Windows is to run Outlook Calendar to schedule a meeting, or to play CivIII. The only time I boot into Linux is for software compatibility testing. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 11:22:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C419D37B405 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thor.acuson.com (ac17859.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B59B43FCB for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:22:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0HCZ00B3XKBZST@thor.acuson.com> for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:12:20 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-117.acuson.com ([157.226.46.117]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id GNSX25MD; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:13:48 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:21:39 -0700 From: Johnson David In-reply-to: <000401c2fc95$bfcc2930$c601a8c0@plasma> To: Peter , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: <200304071121.39599.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Organization: Siemens Medical Systems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <3E90B919.8020207@i4free.co.nz> <000401c2fc95$bfcc2930$c601a8c0@plasma> Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 18:22:06 -0000 On Sunday 06 April 2003 04:39 pm, Peter wrote: > > Like barry in ports (sysutils/barry) > > Barry doesn't let you install ports though (as far as I know) it only > lets you view what's installed, and browse. Correct me if Im wrong. You are correct, at least from the last time I checked. I once thought of writing a GUI front end to portupgrade. Then I realized that that's part of the goal of the libh project. So why bother when libh would be out by the time I finished a stable 1.0? A nicer front end to cvsup would be a more useful project, particularly if it had a supfile configuration dialog of sorts. It's slow and dawdling, but I think libh will finally arrive if we're patient. I would help work on it, but I need a dedicated -unstable machine that I can afford to muck up. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 11:40:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E9337B404 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thor.acuson.com (thor.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D6A43F75 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:40:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0HCZ00BHAL5WST@thor.acuson.com> for advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:30:17 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-117.acuson.com ([157.226.46.117]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id GNSX25X9; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:31:44 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:39:35 -0700 From: Johnson David In-reply-to: <20030407153600.GA51613@netpublishing.com> To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" , advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: <200304071139.35984.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Organization: Siemens Medical Systems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030407153600.GA51613@netpublishing.com> Subject: Re: Look what a mess I made (was Brilliant and very useful...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 18:40:02 -0000 On Monday 07 April 2003 08:36 am, Gregory A. Gilliss wrote: > The point - the reason that I thought that this article has value - > is that the FreeBSD community doesn't - dare I say it - pander - to > the user community. "pander: someone who caters to or exploits the weaknesses of others" I hope you can see my point. There is a line between advocacy and pandering that we should not cross. > Good tools require no instruction. That was the point, not the rest > of this didactic cruft. My automobile is a most excellent tool. But it required a lot of instruction. > Who among you ever read the instructions for a phone (not a cordless > multi- frequency-answering-machine-GPS-breathalyzer phone, but the > unbox-it-plug- it-in-listen-for-dial-tone phone? Or a hammer? When FreeBSD has the lack of functionality of a hammer, then it won't need instructions. Think about it. A hammer only does one thing (two if you have a clawhammer). FreeBSD does a million things in a million different ways. Of course it needs instructions! Cheers, David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 11:59:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 041E237B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 474F743F93 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:59:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from question+advocacy@closedsrc.org) Received: by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CC7D852F2; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:58:58 -0700 From: Linh Pham To: Johnson David Message-ID: <20030407185858.GA30697@q.closedsrc.org> References: <20030407153600.GA51613@netpublishing.com> <200304071139.35984.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="azLHFNyN32YCQGCU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200304071139.35984.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: closedsrc.org Mail-Copies-To: poster X-PGP-Key: http://olosecsrc.org/~question/pubkey.asc" cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: Re: Look what a mess I made (was Brilliant and very useful...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 18:59:02 -0000 --azLHFNyN32YCQGCU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2003-04-07 11:39 -0700, Johnson David wrote: # "pander: someone who caters to or exploits the weaknesses of others" #=20 # I hope you can see my point. There is a line between advocacy and=20 # pandering that we should not cross. # # [snip] #=20 # When FreeBSD has the lack of functionality of a hammer, then it won't=20 # need instructions. Think about it. A hammer only does one thing (two if= =20 # you have a clawhammer). FreeBSD does a million things in a million=20 # different ways. Of course it needs instructions! But I do not think that we should "pander" users that are unwilling to read the instructions or think that we must hand-hold them throughout their entire learning experience. That doesn't always mean that we should just say, "RTFM", but rather point them to resources that best meet their needs and have them read up on it. --=20 Linh Pham question+advocacy@closedsrc.org Webmaster and FreeBSD Geek http://closedsrc.org Apprentice Manager Editor and Writer http://www.daemonnews.org Courage: The things I do for love | And So Western Civilization Crumbles --azLHFNyN32YCQGCU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+kcpywhofDeWkDMIRAlrcAJ4tYTSds6HFbzrkr4meRgmf35FMEACfSdZv JXCmfqyRoEvNW9hTJx+5NwY= =NG3N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --azLHFNyN32YCQGCU-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 12:20:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8594B37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB8C43FB1 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:20:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0526.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.16] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 192c9x-0005LJ-00; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:20:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3E91CB82.6C168E0F@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:03:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" References: <20030407153600.GA51613@netpublishing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a440a141b729d935a80aeeb9890e2ea655a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Look what a mess I made (was Brilliant and very useful...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 19:20:07 -0000 "Gregory A. Gilliss" wrote: > My initial post (the article being debated) was *not* about the following: > Desktops > GUIs or X or window managers > Anything else other than - good tools require no instruction Most of the issues raised in this thread are usability issues having to do with the install path. I would argue that these *are* specifically on point. The complaint about "configuring X11" speaks *directly* to the article's author's "non-negotiable requirement #1: It must have a GUI for installing and configuring the system". Note that Windows avoids, rather than complies, with this one, since it comes preinstalled. > The point - the reason that I thought that this article has value - > is that the FreeBSD community doesn't - dare I say it - pander - to > the user community. We act like the intelligencia of *NIX - > AND IT IS COSTING US THE USER BASE. This is really off-point. It's not really possible to please the user community, for something like a Winmodem, with a proprietary software CODEC that is normally bulk-licensed by a hardware vendor, and for which there is no such thing as an "Open Source" or "royalty free" or "manufacturer prepaid royalty" for a FreeBSD or Linux driver. This speaks directly to the article's author's "non-negotiable requirement #2". Windows complies with this because the royaltie are built into the hardware costs, even when you don't get the license for the OS you are intending to use. > Good tools require no instruction. That was the point, not the rest of > this didactic cruft. "Good tools" require no installation, eause they come preinstalled by the hardware vendor. You need to seperate the idea of installation and configuration from that of day-to-day post installation operation in a factory supplied configuration. > Who among you ever read the instructions for a phone (not a cordless multi- > frequency-answering-machine-GPS-breathalyzer phone, but the unbox-it-plug- > it-in-listen-for-dial-tone phone? Most $5 telephones have autodialer features which require some non-obvious configuration, usually involving waving a dead chicken over the "#" key or something similar. Telephones are a bad example of good usabilitym unless you are specifically talking about the road-side assitance "telephones" which have a single "technology, fulfill your function" button. Preinstalled Windows systems on computers either boot directly into a desktop, or they boot directly to a login that goes into desktop after a username and password. Generally, if you "just hit return" the first login, it quits offering you the login interface. Unless and until you get a UNIX desktop to that point, you are comparing installation and configuration and day to day use, as a big lump, of the UNIX system, with day to day use of the Windows system. That's really an apples/oranges comparison. I'll note that the author failed to compare MacOS X to Windows, nor did the author compare a preinstalled "Lindws" system to Windows. > Or a hammer? Hammers are simple tools. Other than "tack hammers", which have magnets embeeded in one end to "start" the tack (and *do* have instructions: "Only use the magnet part for the initial hit of the tack, to avoid damaging the magnet"), instructions are not really necessary. Computers, on the other hand, are exctremely complex. A first time computer user is likely to mistake the operation of the mouse. > When FreeBSD can, out of the box, be a tool that clueless newbies > (and we were *all* clueless newbies once) can install and configure > on their own (just like - bleh - Windows), then we can all sit back > and be arrogant (again - but not until then). Which is, again, missing the point: the reason you care about installation is because it's not preinstalled on the computers you buy. The reason you care about configuration is because there is no accepted default. Most people do not "configure" their Windows systems; nor do they "install" Windows themselves. You are comparing the incomparable, and then wondering why one compares badly with the other. Note: the article's author's "non-negotiable requirement #6", that the system accomodate leaving Windows installed, and providing a dual boot for the competing stem damages initial usability; even if we are talking about "Partition Magc" and "Boot Magic", there is not an easy way to do this automatically; it certainly can't be done without a royalty cost that isn't there for Windows. Better to overwrite Windows completely. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 12:28:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31C137B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA1643F85 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:28:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0526.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.16] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 192cI8-0007Ip-00; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:28:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3E91CD6C.4B787365@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:11:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael W . Lucas" References: <20030407153600.GA51613@netpublishing.com> <20030407140012.A77600@blackhelicopters.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a440a141b729d935a8e85a653d7c985eb9666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: Re: Look what a mess I made (was Brilliant and very useful...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 19:28:37 -0000 "Michael W . Lucas" wrote: > On Mon, Apr 07, 2003 at 11:08:05AM -0500, Eric Anderson wrote: > > Now, all I need is to figure out how to tweak sysinstall and add some > > "newbie" features that "do it all".. maybe a committer that knows the > > sysinstall gunk will see this.. > > We're all afraid of sysinstall. Sysinstall has eaten up any number of > developers and spit out their steaming bones. > > Seriously, patches are welcome. Please. Start with the author's "non-negotiable request #6", and realize that you have to provide "Boot Magic" and "Partition Magic" functionality, for free, and that even "Boot Magic" can't grok the NTFS on Windows XP, and you have to add a small (33M) FAT partition, which you have to tell it is going to be booted from, and then you still need something that can resize and relocate an NTFS, like the most recent version of "Partition Magic". Now realize that this operation can't be scripted, even if you license these tools themselves, from the vendor. PS: If people knew enough to be abe to rewrite the NTFS log files that they could resize an NTFS, without having to license code from Microsoft, don't you think NTFS would be mountable R/W in FreeBSD and Linux, without the restriction that you can only rewrite the contents of files, without resizin them, and without maintaining POSIX timestamps properly? -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 12:33:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 411E037B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A720643FB1 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:33:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0526.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.16] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 192cN9-0000b4-00; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:33:40 -0700 Message-ID: <3E91CE99.F862EEBF@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:16:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johnson David References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <200304071107.40633.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4459f1ea0cdd1fc77b7773bc2ca4d205f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 19:33:43 -0000 Johnson David wrote: > Frankly, the expections set forth by the reviewer are unrealistic. She > wants a Windows clone. She wants a new operating system while not > changing anything in how she works. By her own admission, not even > Windows XP meets the criteria! (btw, it was a review, not a study) Agreed. > I don't think FreeBSD will ever be a "newbie" system. Sorry guys, but I > don't. By "newbie" system I mean something that you click "OK" and it > installs and works with no additional configuration for anything. The > only way we could reach this state without compromising other goals is > to have FreeBSD preinstalled on OEM systems. I actually disagree with this one; I think it's doable, if you throw out "non-negotiable request #6". For one thing, you are pretty much guaranteed that the "system recovery CDROM" that came with Windows is going to blow away the entire disk contents, because it's just as unable to do random access on NTFS as everyone else who hasn't licensed source code from Microsoft. So the first time you have to use it to recover Windows 2000/Windows XP, it's going to blow away the other OS on the disk, and repartition the disk to factory default. I guarantee you that eMachine's Windows 2000/XP recovery disks work this way. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 12:44:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BDEA37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 849CF43FBF for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:44:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h37JiF56052139; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:44:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E91D511.1000707@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 14:44:17 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert References: <20030407153600.GA51613@netpublishing.com> <3E91A265.1020906@centtech.com> <20030407140012.A77600@blackhelicopters.org> <3E91CD6C.4B787365@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: Re: Look what a mess I made (was Brilliant and very useful...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 19:44:46 -0000 Terry Lambert wrote: > "Michael W . Lucas" wrote: > >>On Mon, Apr 07, 2003 at 11:08:05AM -0500, Eric Anderson wrote: >> >>>Now, all I need is to figure out how to tweak sysinstall and add some >>>"newbie" features that "do it all".. maybe a committer that knows the >>>sysinstall gunk will see this.. >> >>We're all afraid of sysinstall. Sysinstall has eaten up any number of >>developers and spit out their steaming bones. >> >>Seriously, patches are welcome. Please. > > > Start with the author's "non-negotiable request #6", and realize > that you have to provide "Boot Magic" and "Partition Magic" > functionality, for free, and that even "Boot Magic" can't grok > the NTFS on Windows XP, and you have to add a small (33M) FAT > partition, which you have to tell it is going to be booted from, > and then you still need something that can resize and relocate > an NTFS, like the most recent version of "Partition Magic". > > Now realize that this operation can't be scripted, even if you > license these tools themselves, from the vendor. > > PS: If people knew enough to be abe to rewrite the NTFS log > files that they could resize an NTFS, without having to license > code from Microsoft, don't you think NTFS would be mountable > R/W in FreeBSD and Linux, without the restriction that you can > only rewrite the contents of files, without resizin them, and > without maintaining POSIX timestamps properly? Huh? I thought we were talking about adding some functionality to sysinstall.. What did I miss? Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Attitudes are contagious, is yours worth catching? ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 12:58:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7904C37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE2843F93 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:58:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0526.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.16] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 192clD-0006NT-00; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:58:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3E91D41B.EF1C3AA6@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:40:11 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Anderson References: <20030407153600.GA51613@netpublishing.com> <3E91A265.1020906@centtech.com> <20030407140012.A77600@blackhelicopters.org> <3E91CD6C.4B787365@mindspring.com> <3E91D511.1000707@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4db7c62874f4987784c8c712b3d5c424e3ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: Re: Look what a mess I made (was Brilliant and very useful...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 19:58:42 -0000 Eric Anderson wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > "Michael W . Lucas" wrote: > >>On Mon, Apr 07, 2003 at 11:08:05AM -0500, Eric Anderson wrote: > >> > >>>Now, all I need is to figure out how to tweak sysinstall and add some > >>>"newbie" features that "do it all".. maybe a committer that knows the > >>>sysinstall gunk will see this.. > >> > >>We're all afraid of sysinstall. Sysinstall has eaten up any number of > >>developers and spit out their steaming bones. > >> > >>Seriously, patches are welcome. Please. > > > > > > Start with the author's "non-negotiable request #6", and realize [ ... ] > Huh? I thought we were talking about adding some functionality to > sysinstall.. What did I miss? If ``"newbie" features that "do it all"'' is supposed to include repartitioning the disk and moving around a Windows XP partition, and provdin a boot selector, you are going to have one hell of a time adding this feature to sysinstall. Even so, that won't keep a Windows 2000/XP recovery disk from stomping your FreeBSD out of existance, each time you use it. Some of the referenced article's "non-negotiable requirements" are bogus as all get out. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 13:17:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A233C37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AC7A643F85 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:17:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitsune@gmx.co.uk) Received: (qmail 30730 invoked by uid 65534); 7 Apr 2003 20:17:00 -0000 Received: from ip68-109-49-234.lu.dl.cox.net (EHLO fortytwo.) (68.109.49.234) by mail.gmx.net (mp022-rz3) with SMTP; 07 Apr 2003 22:17:00 +0200 Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:16:32 -0500 From: kitsune To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20030408161632.07952231.kitsune@gmx.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <3E91360F.1090702@401.cx> <3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.2claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: ggilliss@netpublishing.com Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 20:17:04 -0000 On Mon, 07 Apr 2003 07:23:31 -0500 Eric Anderson wrote: > Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > [..snip..] > > I love FreeBSD, but not even I would get the idea to run it as a > > desktop. It's not good at it, and if someone asks for my opinion, I hope > > it never will be. > > Even Microsoft have realised that it takes a different os to run a > > server then a desktop. They have a plethora of different editions, like > > XP Home Edition and W2K Advanced Server. As long as FreeBSD excels on > > servers, chances are it will not make a perfect desktop. > > I say we have enough desktop os's, lets keep FreeBSD kicking ass on the > > servers. The window thing has nothing to do with technical capabilities, but with that microsoft does not want to make a OS that works nicely as a server and is for the average user. That way they can sell two and make more money. > Well, I'm just about 180 degrees different on the desktop OS theory as > you are. I've been using FreeBSD as my desktop OS for several years > now. I run it on my notebook (which I am using now), and my desktop. > Both are my "workstations" - my desktop rarely gets rebooted, and of > course my notebook is like my wallet, with me everywhere I go. > > It's actually the finest desktop OS I have ever used. Now, I do have XP > installed on my notebook, but I rarely boot into it. In fact, I only do > so to test Windows things for my users. I'm not a big fan of "super > mario windows" looking GUI's (like the default XP setup - eek!), but I > can appreciate a decent UI when I see one. Windows isn't there yet. > Now, I'm a KISS (keep it simple, stupid) believer, so I run fluxbox. > It's so darn easy to config, and so simple to use. > > Just for informations sake, I taught my wife to use FreeBSD as her > desktop OS in about 15 minutes. She got used to fluxbox and used it > like she has known it for years. Also, recently I showed a unix > "newbie" FreeBSD, and let him play with is and several Linux os's, and > he finally decided on FreeBSD because (in his words) "it's just so > simple and easy to get things done". > > Just my $0.02. > > Eric I Agree. FreeBSD works great for desktops/workstations. I have it installed on all my boxes using fluxbox. I managed to teach my sister to use freebsd in 30 minutes. When I built a comp for her a few months ago with FreeBSD 4.7 on it. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 13:17:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD73F37B404 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB2B343F75 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:17:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitsune@gmx.co.uk) Received: (qmail 30730 invoked by uid 65534); 7 Apr 2003 20:17:00 -0000 Received: from ip68-109-49-234.lu.dl.cox.net (EHLO fortytwo.) (68.109.49.234) by mail.gmx.net (mp022-rz3) with SMTP; 07 Apr 2003 22:17:00 +0200 Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:16:32 -0500 From: kitsune To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20030408161632.07952231.kitsune@gmx.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <3E91360F.1090702@401.cx> <3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.2claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: ggilliss@netpublishing.com Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 20:17:04 -0000 On Mon, 07 Apr 2003 07:23:31 -0500 Eric Anderson wrote: > Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > [..snip..] > > I love FreeBSD, but not even I would get the idea to run it as a > > desktop. It's not good at it, and if someone asks for my opinion, I hope > > it never will be. > > Even Microsoft have realised that it takes a different os to run a > > server then a desktop. They have a plethora of different editions, like > > XP Home Edition and W2K Advanced Server. As long as FreeBSD excels on > > servers, chances are it will not make a perfect desktop. > > I say we have enough desktop os's, lets keep FreeBSD kicking ass on the > > servers. The window thing has nothing to do with technical capabilities, but with that microsoft does not want to make a OS that works nicely as a server and is for the average user. That way they can sell two and make more money. > Well, I'm just about 180 degrees different on the desktop OS theory as > you are. I've been using FreeBSD as my desktop OS for several years > now. I run it on my notebook (which I am using now), and my desktop. > Both are my "workstations" - my desktop rarely gets rebooted, and of > course my notebook is like my wallet, with me everywhere I go. > > It's actually the finest desktop OS I have ever used. Now, I do have XP > installed on my notebook, but I rarely boot into it. In fact, I only do > so to test Windows things for my users. I'm not a big fan of "super > mario windows" looking GUI's (like the default XP setup - eek!), but I > can appreciate a decent UI when I see one. Windows isn't there yet. > Now, I'm a KISS (keep it simple, stupid) believer, so I run fluxbox. > It's so darn easy to config, and so simple to use. > > Just for informations sake, I taught my wife to use FreeBSD as her > desktop OS in about 15 minutes. She got used to fluxbox and used it > like she has known it for years. Also, recently I showed a unix > "newbie" FreeBSD, and let him play with is and several Linux os's, and > he finally decided on FreeBSD because (in his words) "it's just so > simple and easy to get things done". > > Just my $0.02. > > Eric I Agree. FreeBSD works great for desktops/workstations. I have it installed on all my boxes using fluxbox. I managed to teach my sister to use freebsd in 30 minutes. When I built a comp for her a few months ago with FreeBSD 4.7 on it. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 14:14:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13AF937B401; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccmmhc01.mchsi.com (sccmmhc01.mchsi.com [204.127.203.183]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C3BE43F75; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chadalbert@mchsi.com) Received: from www.technaholics.com (12-218-133-12.client.mchsi.com[12.218.133.12]) by sccmmhc01.mchsi.com (sccmmhc01) with ESMTP id <20030407211416mm100stu56e>; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 21:14:17 +0000 Received: from bedrock.hboc.com (hboc.com [139.177.224.128]) by www.technaholics.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id h37LE2F06396; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:14:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chadalbert@mchsi.com) Message-ID: <007701c2fd4a$948979c0$e8b41595@SPGCALBERT> From: "Chad Albert" To: "kitsune" , Received: from [149.21.180.232] by bedrock.hboc.com via smtpd (for [12.218.133.12]) with SMTP; 7 Apr 2003 21:14:02 UT References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com><3E91360F.1090702@401.cx><3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> <20030408161632.07952231.kitsune@gmx.co.uk> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:13:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: ggilliss@netpublishing.com Subject: Re: [notspam] Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 21:14:19 -0000 > > Just for informations sake, I taught my wife to use FreeBSD as her > > desktop OS in about 15 minutes. She got used to fluxbox and used it > > like she has known it for years. Also, recently I showed a unix > > "newbie" FreeBSD, and let him play with is and several Linux os's, and > > he finally decided on FreeBSD because (in his words) "it's just so > > simple and easy to get things done". Funny you mention that your wife's Desktop OS is FreeBSD. Similarly I have my 3 year old daughter on it at home. She uses KDE and GNOME to run her childeren's games and never has a problem. I have to log her in of course because she hasn't mastered typing yet ;-) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 14:14:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13AF937B401; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccmmhc01.mchsi.com (sccmmhc01.mchsi.com [204.127.203.183]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C3BE43F75; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chadalbert@mchsi.com) Received: from www.technaholics.com (12-218-133-12.client.mchsi.com[12.218.133.12]) by sccmmhc01.mchsi.com (sccmmhc01) with ESMTP id <20030407211416mm100stu56e>; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 21:14:17 +0000 Received: from bedrock.hboc.com (hboc.com [139.177.224.128]) by www.technaholics.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id h37LE2F06396; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:14:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chadalbert@mchsi.com) Message-ID: <007701c2fd4a$948979c0$e8b41595@SPGCALBERT> From: "Chad Albert" To: "kitsune" , Received: from [149.21.180.232] by bedrock.hboc.com via smtpd (for [12.218.133.12]) with SMTP; 7 Apr 2003 21:14:02 UT References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com><3E91360F.1090702@401.cx><3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> <20030408161632.07952231.kitsune@gmx.co.uk> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:13:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: ggilliss@netpublishing.com Subject: Re: [notspam] Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 21:14:19 -0000 > > Just for informations sake, I taught my wife to use FreeBSD as her > > desktop OS in about 15 minutes. She got used to fluxbox and used it > > like she has known it for years. Also, recently I showed a unix > > "newbie" FreeBSD, and let him play with is and several Linux os's, and > > he finally decided on FreeBSD because (in his words) "it's just so > > simple and easy to get things done". Funny you mention that your wife's Desktop OS is FreeBSD. Similarly I have my 3 year old daughter on it at home. She uses KDE and GNOME to run her childeren's games and never has a problem. I have to log her in of course because she hasn't mastered typing yet ;-) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 16:31:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DC5237B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web11801.mail.yahoo.com (web11801.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.155]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D79A143FB1 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:31:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030407233105.61525.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.96.6] by web11801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 16:31:05 PDT Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:31:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Haikal Saadh To: "Michael W . Lucas" , Eric Anderson In-Reply-To: <20030407140012.A77600@blackhelicopters.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: Re: Look what a mess I made (was Brilliant and very useful...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 23:31:06 -0000 --- "Michael W . Lucas" wrote: > On Mon, Apr 07, 2003 at 11:08:05AM -0500, Eric Anderson wrote: > > Now, all I need is to figure out how to tweak sysinstall and add > some > > "newbie" features that "do it all".. maybe a committer that knows > the > > sysinstall gunk will see this.. > > > We're all afraid of sysinstall. Sysinstall has eaten up any number > of > developers and spit out their steaming bones. > > Seriously, patches are welcome. Please. > Whatever happened to libh/sysinstall2 [ http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html ]? Is anyone still working about this? The page doesn't seem to have been updated since 2002, but the changelog has stuff in it from last month. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 18:05:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D2EE37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 18:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87D6643F93 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 18:05:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0008.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.8] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 192hYH-0005dm-00; Mon, 07 Apr 2003 18:05:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3E922005.4F270316@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 18:04:05 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Haikal Saadh References: <20030407233105.61525.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4ad49c83da1f64f1603a0e81080d8cb14667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: "Status of libh" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 01:05:36 -0000 Haikal Saadh wrote: > Whatever happened to libh/sysinstall2 [ > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html ]? > > Is anyone still working about this? The page doesn't seem to have > been updated since 2002, but the changelog has stuff in it from last > month. Just an idea... You might want to contact the mailing list that's listed at the URL you posted, or you might want to contact the users listed as having made changes in the changelog and/or the CVS repository, and ask them, instead of asking on -advocacy. I imagine it's active, and you're just looking on the wrong mailing list, or it's suffering from entropic failure, and you're asking the wrong people. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 20:14:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A68E37B401 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 20:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-09.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.41]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DF28A43FB1 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 20:14:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nathan@bbuzzed.cx) Received: (qmail 5259 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2003 03:13:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bbuzzed.cx) (203.217.64.82) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 8 Apr 2003 03:13:05 -0000 Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:13:06 +1000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) To: Eric Anderson From: Nathan Reilly In-Reply-To: <3E9182BC.6000501@centtech.com> Message-Id: <04BE960B-6970-11D7-BC31-003065BD158A@bbuzzed.cx> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 03:14:28 -0000 So give her a Mac :) On Monday, Apr 7, 2003, at 23:53 Australia/Sydney, Eric Anderson wrote: > She doesn't care how it got to the point it is at, just as long as she > can get what she needs to done. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 8 03:13:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9E637B401 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jhs.muc.de (pD9E4DB83.dip.t-dialin.net [217.228.219.131]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B06B443F93 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:13:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from flip.jhs.private (flip.jhs.private [192.168.91.24]) by jhs.muc.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h38ADfI59830; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:13:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from flip.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flip.jhs.private (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h38ADf126953; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:13:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flip.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200304081013.h38ADf126953@flip.jhs.private> To: Terry Lambert In-Reply-To: Message from Terry Lambert of "Mon, 07 Apr 2003 18:04:05 PDT." <3E922005.4F270316@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 12:13:41 +0200 From: "Julian H. Stacey" cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Haikal Saadh cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: Re: "Status of libh" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 10:13:48 -0000 -------- Terry Lambert wrote: > Haikal Saadh wrote: > > Whatever happened to libh/sysinstall2 [ > > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html ]? > > > > Is anyone still working about this? The page doesn't seem to have > > been updated since 2002, but the changelog has stuff in it from last > > month. > > You might want to contact the mailing list that's listed at > the URL you posted, or you might want to contact the users > listed as having made changes in the changelog and/or the > CVS repository, and ask them, instead of asking on -advocacy. > > I imagine it's active, and you're just looking on the wrong > mailing list, or it's suffering from entropic failure, and > you're asking the wrong people. >From Majordomo-Owner@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 4 12:20:01 2003 freebsd-libh Dedicated to libh code development Julian Stacey Freelance Systems Engineer, Unix & Net Consultant, Munich. Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Schnupftabak probieren. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 8 08:43:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A01AC37B401 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from users.757.org (users.757.org [216.54.62.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8815D43F3F for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:42:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from telmnstr@757.org) Received: from users.757.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by users.757.org (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h38FhCoc056792 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:43:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from telmnstr@757.org) Received: from localhost (telmnstr@localhost) by users.757.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) with ESMTP id h38FhCB1056789 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:43:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: users.757.org: telmnstr owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:43:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Ethan To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030408113456.F56727-100000@users.757.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Shirts? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 15:43:01 -0000 Hello all. I placed an order from thinkgeek the other day for the BSD daemon golf shirt. I figured at the same time I'd order a few other shirts. The order arrived, and the BSD shirt was missing. The invoice had nothing on it except for the BSD shirt crossed out. I rechecked the emails and noticed an odd boiler plate email that I would not be charged for shipping on the undelivered item. An email to their order center yeileded a response a day later telling me that the shirt was discontinued and no longer availible. Probably for the better, as the other golf shirt I got from them has no less than 4 stray threads hanging from it -- less quality than a Wal*Mart merchandise. And the fact that they shove their URL within the other logos is kind of lame, yes, everybody knows where the shit came from -- you don't need to self advertise yourself. But what can you expect from people riding on sales to optimistic linux users. So the question comes... where can one get BSD shirts? I have some OpenBSD shirts which I love. But I would like to support the FreeBSD project as we run 20 or so FreeBSD servers. It is good to wear FreeBSD propaganda to large enterprise sites because it sparks conversation and does well to get the word out. I owned the white Polo shirt and the white t-shirts before, but I don't want white shirts again. Thoughts? I emailed the FreeBSD Mall people a while ago (year?) and they said they were planning to screen the current logos on different color shirts (Which would be good) but to this day it is still the same tired merchandise. -- Ethan From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 8 10:36:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B3537B407 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD94443F85 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:36:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with ESMTP id <2003040817362400200jd54ie>; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:36:24 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h38HYA5F079938; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:34:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h38HY15F079935; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:34:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Johnson David References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <200304071107.40633.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 08 Apr 2003 10:34:01 -0700 In-Reply-To: <200304071107.40633.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Message-ID: <98he98nbau.e98@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 65 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 17:36:26 -0000 Johnson David writes: > Frankly, the expections set forth by the reviewer are unrealistic. She True, but with few exceptions, it's only unrealistic because the many people with the moderate skills needed to do the job are unwilling to invest their time on the job. (I include myself in this category.) I'm not sure why this is. The most skilled and ambitious seem to prefer hacking the guts of the OS or leading their own application project. I suspect that the job of improving the User Experience requires too much difficult human interaction by designers, etc. I've observed a couple of Linux distribution developments which make me think that the problem of "ease of use" is more one of desire to do the job well than one of huge difficulty/manpower. The first is "Red Hat Linux" from 1995-2000 while I used it. Until fairly late in that period, almost all of the installation stuff was developed by one or two guys and almost all of it was developed early on. Horrible, poorly-documented, user-unfriendly crap that they just kept pushing out the door while improving their BS marketing machine. They spent millions on lord knows what, supporting kernel developers, GNOME people to re-develop the GUI wheel to replace KDE, etc. They could have easily afforded to polish their installer using the same old character-based GUI, or even the development of a real GUI installer like their poor cousin Mandrake did. Eventually, they made a poor attempt to catch up with Mandrake, but it's still unfriendly, even (and especially?) for experts. The second is "Lycoris" (formerly "Redmond Linux"). This was mostly developed by one guy (with some help from a few remote helpers). I laughed when I heard his early ambitions, but I've read at least one glowing review of his product and it has satisfied at least one OEM. > wants a Windows clone. If an easy-to-install GUI Linux OS is a Windows clone, then yes. Few people wouldn't want such an OS. Even without better automating the install process, the FreeBSD installer could be greatly improved with *relatively* little effort. The thing is just un-polished and unfriendly. Several confusingly- different ways of navigating menus; use of esoteric, undocumented terms, poor help system, poor explanations of what's happening at each step, etc. The many efforts devoted to a developing better GUI installer software would have been better spent re-thinking the use of the old VGA software, but of course, that wouldn't have been as much fun and one can't fault people for doing what pleases them instead of doing what would be better for FreeBSD. I might as well mention my pipe-dream installer. It's text-based; has few features and fewer options; boots off one or a few floppies (or CDROM); offers to install to pre-existing unpartitioned areas of hard disks with selectable levels of "autoness"; offers to partition disks; installs only a minimial OS (ideally, text or VGA option) to a temporary OS directory tree from which the real OS installation (selectable binary or source, from CDROM, FTP, NFS, etc. distribution) is performed. The temporary OS has sufficient tools for allowing OS config tweaks, FreeBSD Handbook & FAQ, and a good software installer (same used for install and updates of both kernel and basic & ported applications) which allows the real OS and applications to be selected (by pre-configured sets and/or individually). Ideally, it would come with M$Win software to allow the user to use M$Win tools to pack the M$Win partitions and create unpartitioned areas of disk for dual booters who want to share a disk. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 8 11:30:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A238737B401 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lilzcluster.liwest.at (lilzclust01.liwest.at [212.33.55.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2A5743FBD for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:30:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from CM58-27.liwest.at by lilzcluster.liwest.at (8.10.2/1.1.2.11/08Jun01-1123AM) id h38ITxm0000904880; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 20:29:59 +0200 (MEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Daniela To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 20:30:16 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> <20030408161632.07952231.kitsune@gmx.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030408161632.07952231.kitsune@gmx.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200304082030.16589.dgw@liwest.at> Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 18:30:04 -0000 Let the sysadmin tinker with the system, let the user use what the sysadm= in=20 sets up, and everything in this world will be working. If every idiot can set up a server, what do sysadmins get paid for? FreeBSD administration is not for the newbie, and this is a Good Thing. When set up correctly, FreeBSD is the best system to get Real Work (TM) d= one. Just my 0.02$. Daniela From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 8 11:49:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493BD37B401 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thor.acuson.com (ac17859.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D1B43FB1 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:48:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0HD100DIPG8QDY@thor.acuson.com> for advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 08 Apr 2003 11:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 08 Apr 2003 11:39:10 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-117.acuson.com ([157.226.46.117]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id GNSXJS6P; Tue, 08 Apr 2003 11:40:43 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 11:48:35 -0700 From: Johnson David In-reply-to: <98he98nbau.e98@localhost.localdomain> To: swear@attbi.com Message-id: <200304081148.36134.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Organization: Siemens Medical Systems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <200304071107.40633.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <98he98nbau.e98@localhost.localdomain> cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 18:49:00 -0000 On Tuesday 08 April 2003 10:34 am, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Johnson David writes: > > Frankly, the expections set forth by the reviewer are unrealistic. > > She > > True, but with few exceptions, it's only unrealistic because the many > people with the moderate skills needed to do the job are unwilling to > invest their time on the job. (I include myself in this category.) > I'm not sure why this is. The most skilled and ambitious seem to > prefer hacking the guts of the OS or leading their own application > project. I suspect that the job of improving the User Experience > requires too much difficult human interaction by designers, etc. The reason I said her expectations were unrealistic was because they are. As prime, and overwhelming, evidence is her OWN satement that not even Windows XP met her expectations. If the prize jewel of the dominant line of desktop operating systems can't meet her requirements, then how can we? This is not to say that FreeBSD can't be improved, or be made much more accessible to the casual user. But meeting her requirements is going to be much, much more difficult. She has not put forth Windows as an example desktop system, but as a *standard* to be met. Not even Mac OSX, which everyone agrees is aptly suitable for newbies, will meet her requirements in full. > I've observed a couple of Linux distribution developments which make > me think that the problem of "ease of use" is more one of desire to > do the job well than one of huge difficulty/manpower. Having surveyed the Linux landscape, and having once lived there, I have come to the conclusion that most distros define as "ease of use" as "simplicity". But a UNIX like system is a complex system. You cannot make it simple. I haven't tried Lycoris or Lindows, or any of the more recent Windows-like Linuxes. But when I hear stories of Lindow defaulting to a password-less root login, I don't think that's the way we want to go. I have tried some of the slightly older "easy" distributions. They seem to suffer one of two maladies. They either strip away functionality to the point that intermediate or advanced users start to suffocate, or they cover the underlying complexity with layer after layer of dialogs and wizards, to the point that it becomes much more complex than it was before. My first example was Corel LinuxOS. It kept blowing up on the install because it kept trying to probe my video card, even though the XFree86 documentation clearly and distinctly says not to do so. When I finally got it installed via an undocumented text-mode installer, it was so stripped of functionality that it was unusable. My latest example was Redhat. I friend had just installed the latest one and he needed help with getting it on the network. I found no less than three configuration dialogs on the main root menu dealing with network configuration! > Even without better automating the install process, the FreeBSD > installer could be greatly improved with *relatively* little effort. > The thing is just un-polished and unfriendly. Several confusingly- > different ways of navigating menus; use of esoteric, undocumented > terms, poor help system, poor explanations of what's happening at > each step, etc. Of course! You have no disagreement with me there. But on the other hand, I have found the FreeBSD installer to be much easier than the newbie-oriented Mandrake installer. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 8 12:02:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6445037B401 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thor.acuson.com (thor.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9999A43F93 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:02:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0HD100DW3GUUE1@thor.acuson.com> for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 08 Apr 2003 12:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 08 Apr 2003 11:52:26 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-117.acuson.com ([157.226.46.117]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id GNSXJTDP; Tue, 08 Apr 2003 11:53:55 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 12:01:48 -0700 From: Johnson David In-reply-to: <200304082030.16589.dgw@liwest.at> To: Daniela , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: <200304081201.48350.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Organization: Siemens Medical Systems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <200304082030.16589.dgw@liwest.at> Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 19:02:13 -0000 On Tuesday 08 April 2003 11:30 am, Daniela wrote: > Let the sysadmin tinker with the system, let the user use what the > sysadmin sets up, and everything in this world will be working. In the appropriate environment, you are absolutely correct! At work we have traditionally had a Solaris environment. New employees who have never seen a UNIX before feel right at home within the week. Why? Because they don't have to administer the system! Despite it's ugliness, CDE manages to be a very adequate program launcher. We have a Unix Level I class here at work, and a dozen Windows oriented classes, plus the odd SAP, Oracle, etc. classes. These are designed for new employees. When an employee takes the Unix class, that's all they need. Only IT members ever bother taking Unix Level II. But the Windows users take all of the Windows classes and still keep messing up their systems. We have about 25 people in IT to handle about 1000 Windows systems, and 2 people in IT to handle about 300 Solaris machines. With numbers like these, I can't help but suspect that Windows is harder for the experienced Windows user than UNIX is for the experienced UNIX user. David p.s. Across the corridor from me, two IT people have spent the last fifty minutes installing a harddrive in a Windows PC. They're still not done. Huh? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 8 13:07:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E36837B401 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntli.com (pc1-glfd2-4-cust59.glfd.cable.ntl.com [81.99.187.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324DC43F93 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:07:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from aqua.lan.palfreman.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntli.com (8.12.3p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h38KEWuG049614; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:14:32 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from localhost (william@localhost)h38KEV09049611; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:14:32 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: aqua.lan.palfreman.com: william owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:14:30 +0100 (BST) From: William Palfreman To: Johnson David In-Reply-To: <200304081148.36134.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Message-ID: <20030408205904.W40826@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <98he98nbau.e98@localhost.localdomain> <200304081148.36134.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 20:07:46 -0000 On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, Johnson David wrote: > But when I hear stories of Lindow defaulting to a password-less root > login, I don't think that's the way we want to go. FreeBSD does that. In fact, as I understand it, it is traditional for any new UNIX installation to default to a passwordless root login. The base systems get you to there, then you install your nicer shells, some user accounts, lynx-ssl and ln -s /usr/bin/vi /usr/local/bin/vim. At some point before the machine gets real users you set a root password. I only see that as a problem if the machine is incompetently administrated. FWIW, I don't care what extra junk gets loaded into the installer, as long as I can continue to do an impatient minimal install, reboot and tidy up with sysinstall afterwards. Bill. -- W. Palfreman. I'm looking for a job. Read my CV at: Tel: 0771 355 0354 www.palfreman.com/william/cv-wfp2.html From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 8 13:38:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA6D37B401 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thor.acuson.com (ac17859.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E16E043FB1 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:38:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0HD100DXQLBHE1@thor.acuson.com> for advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 08 Apr 2003 13:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 08 Apr 2003 13:28:48 -0700 Received: from acuson.com (bull.acuson.com [157.226.46.72]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id GNSXJVAM; Tue, 08 Apr 2003 13:30:21 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 13:38:28 -0700 From: Johnson David To: William Palfreman Message-id: <3E933344.7020100@acuson.com> Organization: Acuson MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020611 References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <200304071107.40633.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <98he98nbau.e98@localhost.localdomain> <200304081148.36134.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <20030408205904.W40826@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 20:38:35 -0000 William Palfreman wrote: > On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, Johnson David wrote: > > >>But when I hear stories of Lindow defaulting to a password-less root >>login, I don't think that's the way we want to go. > > > FreeBSD does that. In fact, as I understand it, it is traditional for > any new UNIX installation to default to a passwordless root login. There is a big difference between the two. Lindows does not expect you to ever set a root password or create a user account. There is no login at all, as near as I can tell. It's a very different philosophy from FreeBSD, where you're still expected to set the root password and create a user account after the installation. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 8 13:57:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A5037B404 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mired.org (ip68-97-54-220.ok.ok.cox.net [68.97.54.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 031BE43FB1 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:57:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm-dated-1050267452.5d0829@mired.org) Received: (qmail 33177 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2003 20:57:32 -0000 Received: from localhost.mired.org (HELO guru.mired.org) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.mired.org with SMTP; 8 Apr 2003 20:57:32 -0000 Received: by guru.mired.org (tmda-inject, from uid 100); Tue, 08 Apr 2003 15:57:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16019.14267.702346.871@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:57:31 -0500 To: Fabio Miranda Hamburger In-Reply-To: References: <16019.13204.521653.193665@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`; h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.73 (Jet Pilot) cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: apm X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 20:57:34 -0000 In , Fabio Miranda Hamburger typed: > > In , Fabio Miranda Hamburger typed: > > > > apm, on the other hand, is the past. acpi is where power management is > > > > going. Improving that is in the development path. So wait for it, or > > > > install -current and do some work on it yourself. > > > Sure, typical "FreeSBD" stgyle answer: "do it yourself, because we are > > > unix guru and like play with the kernel". > > Please don't feed the trolls. > Yes, complaint in mailing list about FreeBSD lack of hardware and new > feature support is "being a troll" or "lame". Ignoring the answers you get and constructing straw men and in general whining about things that aren't true is being a troll. You're doing all of those things. > We cant complaint to freebsd developers who use emacs and elite tools, > they are able to c0de their own version of freebsd and they no have time > to "window's world feature". Sure, you can complain to them. You just have to know where to do it. In your case, learning to comprehend English would help as well. > Many of us like FreeBSD style, It's polite, serious, clean but We would > like to install freebsd in they hardware we want or in a modile machine. If you like it, use it. If you don't like it, do us all a favor and shut up and go away. If you can't use it on hardware you like, do something constructive about it. Whining on inapproiate lists isn't constructive. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 8 14:01:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0512937B401 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr (ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr [163.178.60.51]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491FA43F75 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:01:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fabmirha@ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr) Received: by ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr (Postfix, from userid 5481) id 550811FFD0; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:57:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ns.isi.ulatina.ac.cr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28FF32BFA0; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:57:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:57:48 -0600 (CST) From: Fabio Miranda Hamburger To: Mike Meyer In-Reply-To: <16019.14267.702346.871@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: apm X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 21:01:58 -0000 > > > > > apm, on the other hand, is the past. acpi is where power management is > > > > > going. Improving that is in the development path. So wait for it, or > > > > > install -current and do some work on it yourself. > > > > Sure, typical "FreeSBD" stgyle answer: "do it yourself, because we are > > > > unix guru and like play with the kernel". > > > Please don't feed the trolls. > > Yes, complaint in mailing list about FreeBSD lack of hardware and new > > feature support is "being a troll" or "lame". > > Ignoring the answers you get and constructing straw men and in general > whining about things that aren't true is being a troll. You're doing > all of those things. > > > We cant complaint to freebsd developers who use emacs and elite tools, > > they are able to c0de their own version of freebsd and they no have time > > to "window's world feature". > > Sure, you can complain to them. You just have to know where to do it. > > In your case, learning to comprehend English would help as well. > > > Many of us like FreeBSD style, It's polite, serious, clean but We would > > like to install freebsd in they hardware we want or in a modile machine. > > If you like it, use it. If you don't like it, do us all a favor and > shut up and go away. > > If you can't use it on hardware you like, do something constructive > about it. Whining on inapproiate lists isn't constructive. When there are hardware problems with FreeBSD that doesnt mean "freebsd is hard to use", It means the Proyect is incompetent and is not organized. Take a stadistical information about questions list on freebsd.org and most of the questions are hardware related problems. FreeBSD doesnt see that as a 'weakness' cuz they are el1t3 at kernel stuff. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 8 14:07:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 754C237B401 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mired.org (ip68-97-54-220.ok.ok.cox.net [68.97.54.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4268943FA3 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:07:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm-dated-1050268058.9a57e3@mired.org) Received: (qmail 33342 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2003 21:07:38 -0000 Received: from localhost.mired.org (HELO guru.mired.org) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.mired.org with SMTP; 8 Apr 2003 21:07:38 -0000 Received: by guru.mired.org (tmda-inject, from uid 100); Tue, 08 Apr 2003 16:07:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16019.14873.707059.462907@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:07:37 -0500 To: Fabio Miranda Hamburger In-Reply-To: References: <16019.14267.702346.871@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`; h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.73 (Jet Pilot) cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: apm X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 21:07:42 -0000 In , Fabio Miranda Hamburger typed: > When there are hardware problems with FreeBSD that doesnt mean "freebsd is > hard to use", It means the Proyect is incompetent and is not organized. > > Take a stadistical information about questions list on freebsd.org and > most of the questions are hardware related problems. True. Most of them are from trying to run FreeBSD on flaky hardware. > FreeBSD doesnt see that as a 'weakness' cuz they are el1t3 at kernel > stuff. No, they just acknowledge that they don't have the manpower to support every offbrand piece of garbage that finds it's way to a computer flea market. That's life. If you want to run FreeBSD, you need to put up with buying hardware that it runs on. Windows doesn't have that problem because the makers of that off-brand garbage provide Windows drivers for it - for a while. I've got audio cards that work fine with FreeBSD that don't work with WinXP because the makers of the card quit supporting it. If you want to use cheap hardware, run Windows or do something constructive for FreeBSD. Just whining about it is a waste of time. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 8 16:35:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54AE337B401 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0CCB43FAF for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:35:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0311.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.56] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1932cv-0003YB-00; Tue, 08 Apr 2003 16:35:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3E935C77.98CEFB3F@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 16:34:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <98he98nbau.e98@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43a049da262a7402ba8558ee4d84e9bea3ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Johnson David cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 23:35:49 -0000 "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Johnson David writes: > > Frankly, the expections set forth by the reviewer are unrealistic. She > > True, but with few exceptions, it's only unrealistic because the many > people with the moderate skills needed to do the job are unwilling to > invest their time on the job. (I include myself in this category.) I'm > not sure why this is. The most skilled and ambitious seem to prefer > hacking the guts of the OS or leading their own application project. Well, let's address the "all hardware must continue to work", the "non-negotiable requirement #4". I guess this means you have the WinModem documentation, and the licensed CODEC's for WinModem's implemented that way, so that we can download them, and just use them? While we are at it, there are significant numbers of platforms for which the Intel-supplied ACPI code fails, but the Microsoft ACPI code with Windows *doesn't*, so you must have documentation about the differences between the Microsoft ACPI and Intel ACPI implementations? While we are at it, I'd really appreciate a legal DVD player for FreeBSD, or even Linux, that I could install on any computer with a DVD drive on it. Also, I'd really like to have the hardware failover support protocol for the new BroadComm ethernet adapters, which support hardware fail-over, but only if you download new firmware, with a driver which only supports Windows or Solaris. That's really "just off the top of my head". > I suspect that the job of improving the User Experience requires too much > difficult human interaction by designers, etc. I'd be happy to address it for FreeBSD, if I could license it like Soft Updates was licensed, so no one could compete with me in producing CDROM's, and if I was still allowed to use the FreeBSD trademark on the CDROM's I distribute. > I've observed a couple of Linux distribution developments which make > me think that the problem of "ease of use" is more one of desire to do > the job well than one of huge difficulty/manpower. See the above; my own theory is "there is no money in it, so no one does the work". > Even without better automating the install process, the FreeBSD > installer could be greatly improved with *relatively* little effort. > The thing is just un-polished and unfriendly. Several confusingly- > different ways of navigating menus; use of esoteric, undocumented terms, > poor help system, poor explanations of what's happening at each step, > etc. The many efforts devoted to a developing better GUI installer > software would have been better spent re-thinking the use of the old VGA > software, but of course, that wouldn't have been as much fun and one > can't fault people for doing what pleases them instead of doing what > would be better for FreeBSD. And still... there's no money in it. Where is my ROI? At least with VM hacking (or whatever), where I'm doing complex kernel work, I distinguish myself as having employable skills that not just everyone posesses. Not so, if I just prove I'm a clever installer or "curses hacker". There has to be some payback. One of the things that no one seems to notice is that, if you are the "installer king", then there's really no economic incentive for you to make the installer an order of magnitude better. People are not going to buy more of your CDROM's than they do already, if you are "the only game in town". There's just no competition in the installers for FreeBSD. > I might as well mention my pipe-dream installer. It's text-based; has [ ... ] Here's my deram installer: it's a Windows application that runs as a result of an "autorun.inf" on the CDROM, and let's you pick an install from "regular"/"full"/"custom", and lets you move a slider bar for the amount of disk space for each OS, with an "amount used vs. amount available" bar. 1) Put in CDROM 2) Click 3) Click 4) [whir whir whir] 5) "Your system is now rebooting; select "FreeBSD" at the boot menu in order to run FreeBSD; select Windows or just wait, to boot Windows" 6) "Click on the OS to boot, or click "change default" to change your default; your current default is "Windows"" 7) "Booting Windows in 10 .. 9 .. 8 .." -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 8 17:22:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54ADD37B401 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C303343FAF for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:22:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0311.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.56] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1933Ls-0001rq-00; Tue, 08 Apr 2003 17:22:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3E936756.ACA3C46A@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 17:20:38 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William Palfreman References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <98he98nbau.e98@localhost.localdomain> <20030408205904.W40826@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4a588bfb349debbebbd1827fa395af354350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Johnson David cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 00:22:12 -0000 William Palfreman wrote: > On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, Johnson David wrote: > > But when I hear stories of Lindow defaulting to a password-less root > > login, I don't think that's the way we want to go. > > FreeBSD does that. In fact, as I understand it, it is traditional for > any new UNIX installation to default to a passwordless root login. He means without a login prompt; it drops you directly into the graphical shell with your credentials equal to "root". This is what Windows does, too, FWIW, unless you specify a network login; then, after you login as a particular user, it drops you in with "root" credentials on the local machine, and proxy credentials equal to the network login, on the network. Windows 2000/NT/XP force login as a normal user, or "admin"; "admin" acts like a particular network login, in earlier versions of Windows (i.e. local "root" credentials, proxy credentials relative to the node on the network). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 9 02:13:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E349637B401 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 02:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thalia.otenet.gr (thalia.otenet.gr [195.170.0.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD80443F75 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 02:13:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b189.otenet.gr [212.205.244.197]) by thalia.otenet.gr (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h399DUmP012959; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 12:13:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h399DTUi095229; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 12:13:29 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h3992r3U085497; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 12:02:53 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 12:02:53 +0300 (EEST) From: Giorgos Keramidas X-X-Sender: giorgos@gothmog To: Fabio Miranda Hamburger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030409115811.U45138@gothmog> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apm X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:13:38 -0000 On 2003-04-08 14:57, Fabio Miranda Hamburger wrote: > > > Yes, complaint in mailing list about FreeBSD lack of hardware and new > > > feature support is "being a troll" or "lame". > > > > Ignoring the answers you get and constructing straw men and in general > > whining about things that aren't true is being a troll. You're doing > > all of those things. > > When there are hardware problems with FreeBSD that doesnt mean "freebsd is > hard to use", It means the Proyect is incompetent and is not organized. This is a logical fallacy, that fails to acknowledge the rest of the possibilities that exist: * There's a problem with the hardware parts in question. * The hardware vendor is keeping information 'hidden' behind restrictive licenses that FreeBSD developers don't have access to. and so forth... The world isn't black and white only. > Take a stadistical information about questions list on freebsd.org and > most of the questions are hardware related problems. What do the statistics say about problems that are reported and fixed? > FreeBSD doesnt see that as a 'weakness' cuz they are el1t3 at kernel > stuff. Sorry, this does not follow. What you quoted until now doesn't prove anything like this. - Giorgos From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 9 02:57:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87CC37B401 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 02:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isy.liu.se (isy.liu.se [130.236.48.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F196F43F93 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 02:57:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mj@isy.liu.se) Received: from isy.liu.se (tuttle.isy.liu.se [130.236.49.189]) by isy.liu.se (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h399vMEc002465; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:57:22 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:58:05 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) To: Daniela From: Michael Josefsson In-Reply-To: <200304082030.16589.dgw@liwest.at> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:57:26 -0000 On Tuesday, Apr 8, 2003, at 20:30 Europe/Stockholm, Daniela wrote: > Let the sysadmin tinker with the system, let the user use what the > sysadmin > sets up, and everything in this world will be working. > Hear, hear! Well spoken. If we consider the system as a tool, then let someone set it up and let the users use it. Full stop. It's a militant mode but we do this everyday without complaining: The TV-set is premade, we seldom try to make it do anything else than receive picture and sound, the car has its four wheels because they are very good at doing their job while there etc. If any (idiot) can/will tinker with a system the result is often a mish-mash. Decide what the system shall do, make it do that and be done with it. I love to fiddle with programs/compilers/hardware etc, but I don't claim that I am most productive that way, I just enjoy it. For real work, I use a machine with carefully chosen programs that do exactly what I want and nothing more. For fun and server (they coincide sometime too:) I use FreeBSD and for most of my other desktopping I use OS X - because they work and work well in their respective areas. Have used FreeBSD since 1997 (FBSD 2.2.2) and am very happy at jumping on that waggon back then. When I left being 100% sysadmin a year ago I tried OS X, and liked it too. But I will never erase the FreeBSD partitions on my machines. And for the servers I still run, it's FreeBSD all the way. /Micke > If every idiot can set up a server, what do sysadmins get paid for? > FreeBSD administration is not for the newbie, and this is a Good Thing. > When set up correctly, FreeBSD is the best system to get Real Work > (TM) done. > > Just my 0.02$. > > Daniela > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 9 03:31:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B81E37B401 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 03:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF2443FCB for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 03:31:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0033.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.33] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 193CrR-0000nq-00; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 03:31:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3E93F627.95F34FCD@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 03:29:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Josefsson References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e4ef1ee906f88b539511901088f0d793350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:31:30 -0000 Michael Josefsson wrote: > On Tuesday, Apr 8, 2003, at 20:30 Europe/Stockholm, Daniela wrote: > > Let the sysadmin tinker with the system, let the user use what the > > sysadmin sets up, and everything in this world will be working. > > Hear, hear! Well spoken. If we consider the system as a tool, then let > someone set it up and let the users use it. Full stop. It's a militant > mode but we do this everyday without complaining: The TV-set is > premade, we seldom try to make it do anything else than receive picture > and sound, the car has its four wheels because they are very good at > doing their job while there etc. Too militant. This is like saying you should need a sysadmin for your TV in order to set the SAP, Brightness, Contrast, and other software settings on the TV. It's not like people are tinkering inside their computer hardware, either. You need to think in terms of a strict division of labor between hardware and software, but software setting should be tinkerable. > If any (idiot) can/will tinker with a system the result is often a > mish-mash. Decide what the system shall do, make it do that and be done > with it. "Desktop Themes" result in a "mish-mash": it's impossible for a support person on the other end of the phone to tell people where/what to click by visual description, in order to help them resolve problems. You aren't addressing that "mish-mash", and I don't see the moral difference between changing the behaviour of the system with a "Theme", vs. doing it some other way: both screw the ability to support the system. BTW: The intent here is to get systems that do not require expensive system administrators in order to initially function, nor to maintain their function. > > If every idiot can set up a server, what do sysadmins get paid for? Something other than system administration. I think this is the part that most people [sysadmins] object to... -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 9 03:40:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8019137B401; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 03:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550A643FAF; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 03:40:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.9/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h39AcnMI093339; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 12:38:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <3E93F8A0.3080500@401.cx> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 12:40:32 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: kitsune References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <3E91360F.1090702@401.cx> <3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> <20030408161632.07952231.kitsune@gmx.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: ggilliss@netpublishing.com Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:40:46 -0000 kitsune wrote: > On Mon, 07 Apr 2003 07:23:31 -0500 Eric Anderson > wrote: >> Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: [..snip..] >> >>> I love FreeBSD, but not even I would get the idea to run it as >>> a desktop. It's not good at it, and if someone asks for my >>> opinion, I hope it never will be. Even Microsoft have realised >>> that it takes a different os to run a server then a desktop. >>> They have a plethora of different editions, like XP Home >>> Edition and W2K Advanced Server. As long as FreeBSD excels on >>> servers, chances are it will not make a perfect desktop. I say >>> we have enough desktop os's, lets keep FreeBSD kicking ass on >>> the servers. *snip* >> Just for informations sake, I taught my wife to use FreeBSD as >> her desktop OS in about 15 minutes. She got used to fluxbox and >> used it like she has known it for years. Also, recently I showed >> a unix "newbie" FreeBSD, and let him play with is and several >> Linux os's, and he finally decided on FreeBSD because (in his >> words) "it's just so simple and easy to get things done". >> >> Just my $0.02. >> >> Eric > > > I Agree. FreeBSD works great for desktops/workstations. I have it > installed on all my boxes using fluxbox. > > I managed to teach my sister to use freebsd in 30 minutes. When I > built a comp for her a few months ago with FreeBSD 4.7 on it. I think this entire thread boils down to how you define 'desktop'. To me, a desktop is a computer used for surf, email, chatt, games and similar non-serious tasks. A computer used for programming, CAD, DTP, analyzis, monitoring or similar is what I call a workstation, not a desktop. A desktop user is often clueless about the inner workings of his os, and so it should be. As long as he can get to the web, install a new game or get his icons to display in 4 billion colors, he is satisfied. Those are the users that need windows, not freebsd. A workstation user has, or atleast should have, a basic understanding of computers. He is usually able to install several os's using a bootloader, he partitions his drives, configures and tweaks his system and overall keep track of his software. FreeBSD can make an excellent workstation. I still claim that freebsd is not, and should not try to be, a good desktop os. All replies Ive seen so far stating things like "but Ive used freebsd as a desktop for years and I love it" are probably from workstation users. Those that show of friends or family as examples has always helped their loved ones to set things up or just given them a machine where everything is preconfigured. The fact that a clueless user can use a os that someone has spent hours setting up does not mean the os is a good desktop. A good desktop os to me is a os where the user himself can set things up the way he wants it, without help from experienced users. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 9 03:40:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8019137B401; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 03:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550A643FAF; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 03:40:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.9/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h39AcnMI093339; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 12:38:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <3E93F8A0.3080500@401.cx> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 12:40:32 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: kitsune References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <3E91360F.1090702@401.cx> <3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> <20030408161632.07952231.kitsune@gmx.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: ggilliss@netpublishing.com Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:40:46 -0000 kitsune wrote: > On Mon, 07 Apr 2003 07:23:31 -0500 Eric Anderson > wrote: >> Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: [..snip..] >> >>> I love FreeBSD, but not even I would get the idea to run it as >>> a desktop. It's not good at it, and if someone asks for my >>> opinion, I hope it never will be. Even Microsoft have realised >>> that it takes a different os to run a server then a desktop. >>> They have a plethora of different editions, like XP Home >>> Edition and W2K Advanced Server. As long as FreeBSD excels on >>> servers, chances are it will not make a perfect desktop. I say >>> we have enough desktop os's, lets keep FreeBSD kicking ass on >>> the servers. *snip* >> Just for informations sake, I taught my wife to use FreeBSD as >> her desktop OS in about 15 minutes. She got used to fluxbox and >> used it like she has known it for years. Also, recently I showed >> a unix "newbie" FreeBSD, and let him play with is and several >> Linux os's, and he finally decided on FreeBSD because (in his >> words) "it's just so simple and easy to get things done". >> >> Just my $0.02. >> >> Eric > > > I Agree. FreeBSD works great for desktops/workstations. I have it > installed on all my boxes using fluxbox. > > I managed to teach my sister to use freebsd in 30 minutes. When I > built a comp for her a few months ago with FreeBSD 4.7 on it. I think this entire thread boils down to how you define 'desktop'. To me, a desktop is a computer used for surf, email, chatt, games and similar non-serious tasks. A computer used for programming, CAD, DTP, analyzis, monitoring or similar is what I call a workstation, not a desktop. A desktop user is often clueless about the inner workings of his os, and so it should be. As long as he can get to the web, install a new game or get his icons to display in 4 billion colors, he is satisfied. Those are the users that need windows, not freebsd. A workstation user has, or atleast should have, a basic understanding of computers. He is usually able to install several os's using a bootloader, he partitions his drives, configures and tweaks his system and overall keep track of his software. FreeBSD can make an excellent workstation. I still claim that freebsd is not, and should not try to be, a good desktop os. All replies Ive seen so far stating things like "but Ive used freebsd as a desktop for years and I love it" are probably from workstation users. Those that show of friends or family as examples has always helped their loved ones to set things up or just given them a machine where everything is preconfigured. The fact that a clueless user can use a os that someone has spent hours setting up does not mean the os is a good desktop. A good desktop os to me is a os where the user himself can set things up the way he wants it, without help from experienced users. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 9 04:24:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96E8F37B401 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 04:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isy.liu.se (isy.liu.se [130.236.48.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC4643FCB for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 04:24:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mj@isy.liu.se) Received: from isy.liu.se (tuttle.isy.liu.se [130.236.49.189]) by isy.liu.se (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h39BOPEc009159; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 13:24:25 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 13:25:08 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) To: Terry Lambert From: Michael Josefsson In-Reply-To: <3E93F627.95F34FCD@mindspring.com> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 11:24:28 -0000 On Wednesday, Apr 9, 2003, at 12:29 Europe/Stockholm, Terry Lambert wrote: > Michael Josefsson wrote: >> On Tuesday, Apr 8, 2003, at 20:30 Europe/Stockholm, Daniela wrote: >>> Let the sysadmin tinker with the system, let the user use what the >>> sysadmin sets up, and everything in this world will be working. >> >> Hear, hear! Well spoken. If we consider the system as a tool, then let >> someone set it up and let the users use it. Full stop. It's a militant >> mode but we do this everyday without complaining: The TV-set is >> premade, we seldom try to make it do anything else than receive >> picture >> and sound, the car has its four wheels because they are very good at >> doing their job while there etc. > > Too militant. This is like saying you should need a sysadmin > for your TV in order to set the SAP, Brightness, Contrast, and > other software settings on the TV. It's not like people are > tinkering inside their computer hardware, either. You need to > think in terms of a strict division of labor between hardware > and software, but software setting should be tinkerable. > Hmmm, Lets get down to cases. At my job I ran a LAN with 65+ computers, most of them are dualbooting winxp and unix. Almost all problems stem from the win-boxes and that is not because they are more used, they arent, but because people insist on downloading software and installing it on them. Most sw for win seems to assume a non-networked environment and clutter up the local disk after a while. Yes we ghost the partitions and expect a reinstall now and then. With FreeBSD the problem does not exist. There is no way I'll give away the root account to let them install software of their choice onto the machines. Since their "home" is on a samba/nfs-server all they can do is mess up their own space. The FBSD machines are installed with what they are likely to use in terms of software and if some software is missing I will gladly install it for them (for the benefit of everyone in the lab due to nfs). The point is that I have control and wont install any ol' program (do you know how many mp3-players there are out there in win-land...), it has to be of relevant use. All in all: I take the militant approach to have a lab I can trust will work thay way it is intended. I have no problems with not having root-account on the universities Solaris system either, as long as the policy doesnt stop me from doing relevant work. /Micke From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 9 05:03:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F262737B401 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 05:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4730843FCB for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 05:03:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0033.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.33] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 193EIm-0000aA-00; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 05:03:41 -0700 Message-ID: <3E940B9D.3194D881@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 05:01:33 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Josefsson References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a44782f05b6ec796e51b7996164737a560350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 12:03:47 -0000 Michael Josefsson wrote: > Lets get down to cases. At my job I ran a LAN with 65+ computers, most > of them are dualbooting winxp and unix. Almost all problems stem from > the win-boxes and that is not because they are more used, they arent, > but because people insist on downloading software and installing it on > them. Most sw for win seems to assume a non-networked environment and > clutter up the local disk after a while. Yes we ghost the partitions > and expect a reinstall now and then. > > With FreeBSD the problem does not exist. There is no way I'll give away > the root account to let them install software of their choice onto the > machines. Since their "home" is on a samba/nfs-server all they can do > is mess up their own space. When I buy a computer, I want to "0wn" it. When my company buys a computer, I acknowledge that they "0wn" it. Corporate use is very different from most desktop use: in the corporate world, you have money to hire system administrators. I frankly doubt that most home users would be willing to have their ISP "admin their computer for them", even if the service came free with the monthly ISP bill. Give the choice, corporate users are the same way. FWIW: It's possible to do the same administrative division on Windows XP; I have to wonder why you haven't done it. I suspect that it's because it's politically impossible, and the executive users wouldn't stand for not having the admin password on their machines, or being able to install the newest "Flash" plugin when some web site demands it. > The FBSD machines are installed with what they are likely to use in > terms of software and if some software is missing I will gladly install > it for them (for the benefit of everyone in the lab due to nfs). The > point is that I have control and wont install any ol' program (do you > know how many mp3-players there are out there in win-land...), it has > to be of relevant use. Again, it's possible to make this same requirement of Windows XP systems, making users use what's installed by the admin, and store all their data on a network server, instead of locally, or store data locally, but make that storage area useless for installing plugins and other software. > All in all: I take the militant approach to have a lab I can trust will > work thay way it is intended. Standard corporate environment, even for Windows (if it's XP). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 9 09:14:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4178937B409 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 09:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netpublishing.com (blackbox.netpublishing.com [209.237.225.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794F743FBD for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 09:14:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggilliss@netpublishing.com) Received: from netpublishing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netpublishing.com (8.12.8/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h39GELL9069525 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 09:14:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggilliss@netpublishing.com) Received: (from ggilliss@localhost) by netpublishing.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h39GELbJ069524 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 09:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 09:14:21 -0700 From: "Gregory A. Gilliss" To: advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030409161421.GA69276@netpublishing.com> References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <3E91360F.1090702@401.cx> <3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> <20030408161632.07952231.kitsune@gmx.co.uk> <3E93F8A0.3080500@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E93F8A0.3080500@401.cx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spook: AES, Covert, Intiso, LASINT, r00t, satellite, C4I, Eagle Fury Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 16:14:22 -0000 As the unfortunate initiator of this thread, I submit that the discussion has wandered *way* off topic. I repeat, this thread is *not* about: desktops GUIs OS wars I started this thread by posting the link to the following article: http://www.linuxworld.com/2003/0401.tsu.html ...and thereafter suggested that the author's user experience would make a good template for the FreeBSD development community to address ways to improve the entire FreeBSD user community's experience regarding the installation and configuration of FreeBSD (and even *NIX in general). The responses to the original post have, for the most part, exhibited diverse opinions on related topics that are subsets of the original post - in other words, nit picking. BTW, please don't suggest that I am arguing that the other topics are not valid - they are completely valid - and their discussion detracts from the intent of my original post. The point was not how you use FreeBSD, the point was that making it more "user-friendly" to use FreeBSD would make it more readily adaptable by the user community as a whole. Perhaps this discussion is an example of why FreeBSD, a demonstrably better technology solution for servers/desktops/whatever is being summarily trounced in the marketplace by various disparate Linux distros. Since there appears to be so much variance of opinions among the respondents to this topic, I can only conclude that the entire project is doomed to fragment and weaken over time (even more than it already has - NetBSD and OpenBSD come to mind). In the grand scheme of things, this example appears to illustrate the character of human nature, evolution, and entropy of Western Civilizations, religions, political parties, and twelve-step groups. In summary, "I don't agree with you, so rather than concede, I will go start my own __________ (fill in the blank). I guess the answer to the question "Can't we all just get along" is, "No, we cannot all just get along; we'll just argue and divide until we're all too weak to be effective." I'm not subscribed BTW, so flame me off list if you're inclined. G On or about 2003.04.09 12:40:32 +0000, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg (listsub@401.cx) said: > kitsune wrote: > > On Mon, 07 Apr 2003 07:23:31 -0500 Eric Anderson > > wrote: > >> Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: [..snip..] > >> > >>> I love FreeBSD, but not even I would get the idea to run it as > >>> a desktop. It's not good at it, and if someone asks for my > >>> opinion, I hope it never will be. Even Microsoft have realised > >>> that it takes a different os to run a server then a desktop. > >>> They have a plethora of different editions, like XP Home > >>> Edition and W2K Advanced Server. As long as FreeBSD excels on > >>> servers, chances are it will not make a perfect desktop. I say > >>> we have enough desktop os's, lets keep FreeBSD kicking ass on > >>> the servers. > > *snip* > > >> Just for informations sake, I taught my wife to use FreeBSD as > >> her desktop OS in about 15 minutes. She got used to fluxbox and > >> used it like she has known it for years. Also, recently I showed > >> a unix "newbie" FreeBSD, and let him play with is and several > >> Linux os's, and he finally decided on FreeBSD because (in his > >> words) "it's just so simple and easy to get things done". > >> > >> Just my $0.02. > >> > >> Eric > > > > > > I Agree. FreeBSD works great for desktops/workstations. I have it > > installed on all my boxes using fluxbox. > > > > I managed to teach my sister to use freebsd in 30 minutes. When I > > built a comp for her a few months ago with FreeBSD 4.7 on it. > > > I think this entire thread boils down to how you define 'desktop'. > To me, a desktop is a computer used for surf, email, chatt, games and > similar non-serious tasks. > A computer used for programming, CAD, DTP, analyzis, monitoring or > similar is what I call a workstation, not a desktop. > > A desktop user is often clueless about the inner workings of his os, > and so it should be. As long as he can get to the web, install a new > game or get his icons to display in 4 billion colors, he is satisfied. > Those are the users that need windows, not freebsd. > > A workstation user has, or atleast should have, a basic understanding > of computers. He is usually able to install several os's using a > bootloader, he partitions his drives, configures and tweaks his system > and overall keep track of his software. > FreeBSD can make an excellent workstation. > > I still claim that freebsd is not, and should not try to be, a good > desktop os. All replies Ive seen so far stating things like "but Ive > used freebsd as a desktop for years and I love it" are probably from > workstation users. Those that show of friends or family as examples > has always helped their loved ones to set things up or just given them > a machine where everything is preconfigured. The fact that a clueless > user can use a os that someone has spent hours setting up does not > mean the os is a good desktop. A good desktop os to me is a os where > the user himself can set things up the way he wants it, without help > from experienced users. > -- > R > -- -- "You can't separate peace from freedom because greg@gilliss.com -- no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom." ICQ 123710561 -- - Malcolm X (1925-1965) 1 510 559 1840 (v) -- http://www.gilliss.com/greg/ PGP Key fingerprint 2F 0B 70 AE 5F 8E 71 7A 2D 86 52 BA B7 83 D9 B4 14 0E 8C A3 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 9 10:09:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D1237B401; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18A5143FA3; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:09:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C03FD90; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from speck.techno.pagans (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with SMTP id 6CC92A92D; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:07:02 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" Message-Id: <20030409100702.7f28d299.dmp@pantherdragon.org> In-Reply-To: <3E93F8A0.3080500@401.cx> References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <3E91360F.1090702@401.cx> <3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> <20030408161632.07952231.kitsune@gmx.co.uk> <3E93F8A0.3080500@401.cx> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: kitsune@gmx.co.uk cc: ggilliss@netpublishing.com Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 17:09:14 -0000 "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" wrote: > A good desktop os to me is a os where > the user himself can set things up the way he wants it, without help > from experienced users. By this definition, not even Windows or MacOS qualify as good desktop OSes. Everyone I've ever sold a system to has needed help figuring out how to do something, installing this, or configuration that. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 9 10:09:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D1237B401; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18A5143FA3; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:09:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C03FD90; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from speck.techno.pagans (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with SMTP id 6CC92A92D; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:07:02 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" Message-Id: <20030409100702.7f28d299.dmp@pantherdragon.org> In-Reply-To: <3E93F8A0.3080500@401.cx> References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <3E91360F.1090702@401.cx> <3E916DC3.4090407@centtech.com> <20030408161632.07952231.kitsune@gmx.co.uk> <3E93F8A0.3080500@401.cx> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: kitsune@gmx.co.uk cc: ggilliss@netpublishing.com Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 17:09:14 -0000 "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" wrote: > A good desktop os to me is a os where > the user himself can set things up the way he wants it, without help > from experienced users. By this definition, not even Windows or MacOS qualify as good desktop OSes. Everyone I've ever sold a system to has needed help figuring out how to do something, installing this, or configuration that. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 9 10:20:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691D837B401 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thor.acuson.com (thor.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61AB843FA3 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:20:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0HD300EQB6T7M6@thor.acuson.com> for advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:10:36 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-117.acuson.com ([157.226.46.117]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id GNSXKH2Y; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:12:10 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:20:03 -0700 From: Johnson David In-reply-to: <20030409161421.GA69276@netpublishing.com> To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" , advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: <200304091020.03359.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Organization: Siemens Medical Systems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20030406172035.GA45332@netpublishing.com> <3E93F8A0.3080500@401.cx> <20030409161421.GA69276@netpublishing.com> Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 17:20:25 -0000 On Wednesday 09 April 2003 09:14 am, Gregory A. Gilliss wrote: > The responses to the original post have, for the most part, exhibited > diverse opinions on related topics that are subsets of the original > post - in other words, nit picking. Welcome to the wonderful world of advocacy... David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 9 10:34:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F59737B401 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thor.acuson.com (thor.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B134E43F3F for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:34:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0HD300ETO7HCM0@thor.acuson.com> for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:25:05 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-117.acuson.com ([157.226.46.117]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id GNSXKHT2; Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:26:39 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:34:32 -0700 From: Johnson David In-reply-to: <3E940B9D.3194D881@mindspring.com> To: Terry Lambert Message-id: <200304091034.32641.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Organization: Siemens Medical Systems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3E940B9D.3194D881@mindspring.com> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sysadmins [was: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 17:34:54 -0000 On Wednesday 09 April 2003 05:01 am, Terry Lambert wrote: > FWIW: It's possible to do the same administrative division on > Windows XP; I have to wonder why you haven't done it. I suspect > that it's because it's politically impossible, and the executive > users wouldn't stand for not having the admin password on their > machines, or being able to install the newest "Flash" plugin > when some web site demands it. It is politically impossible. At some basic level, the user still needs to be in control of their environment. With UNIX you can still install software in your home directory. I do this at work all the time. But under Windows it seems to be an either-or proposition. I understand that it's possible to give the user a "home" directory with install permissions uner NT/XP, but it never seems to work in practice. When the CEO can't install a driver for his new PDA (true story) then the admins had better enable him to do so or get someone to do it for him pronto. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 10 01:42:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E1937B401 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from astarte.volker.de (p50893BC4.dip.t-dialin.net [80.137.59.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED4D43F75 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:42:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@secspace.de) Received: from astarte.volker.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astarte.volker.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h3A8gDtp035852 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:42:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from freebsd@secspace.de) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:42:13 +0200 From: Volker Kindermann To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20030410104213.003f0632.freebsd@secspace.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.10claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: FreeBSD 5.0 review on osnews X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:42:17 -0000 Hi, there's a review of FreeBSD 5.0 at http://www.osnews.com/printer.php?news_id=3240 Conclusion: "Everything is fast and stable, minus File Roller, which has a habit of crashing. I haven't missed my old OS at all" Worth reading and advocating. :-) -volker From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 10 01:51:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379EF37B401 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-97.apple.com [17.250.248.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA3043F75 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:51:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rolnif@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h3A8pePE021950 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com ([66.92.1.188]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HD4DY300.08G for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:51:39 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:51:37 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: John Martinez To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20030410104213.003f0632.freebsd@secspace.de> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Subject: Re: FreeBSD 5.0 review on osnews X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:51:41 -0000 On Thursday, April 10, 2003, at 01:42 AM, Volker Kindermann wrote: > Hi, > > there's a review of FreeBSD 5.0 at > > http://www.osnews.com/printer.php?news_id=3240 > > Conclusion: > > "Everything is fast and stable, minus File Roller, which has a habit of > crashing. I haven't missed my old OS at all" > > Worth reading and advocating. :-) > Pretty good article. Not too detailed, but the author makes his point. I'm very impressed with 5.0. The team did a great job. -john From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 10 04:40:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAFA037B401 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 04:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tigernet.co.nz (secure.tiger.net.nz [210.48.81.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 11C6A43F75 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 04:40:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@tigernet.co.nz) Received: (qmail 12389 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2003 11:42:39 -0000 Received: from pc-00065 (HELO addix) (192.168.3.65) by p3sme.tigernet.co.nz (192.168.3.5) with ESMTP; 10 Apr 2003 11:42:39 -0000 From: "Ben Walton" To: "'Volker Kindermann'" , Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:40:19 +1200 Message-ID: <000201c2ff55$f6b9f400$4103a8c0@addix> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <20030410104213.003f0632.freebsd@secspace.de> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: RE: FreeBSD 5.0 review on osnews X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:40:29 -0000 I have to agree with the speed. I've just upgraded my firewall to 5.0, and man, what a difference. Now, the slow part of the boot process is waiting for the BIOS! Ben -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Volker Kindermann Sent: Thursday, 10 April 2003 8:42 p.m. To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD 5.0 review on osnews Hi, there's a review of FreeBSD 5.0 at http://www.osnews.com/printer.php?news_id=3240 Conclusion: "Everything is fast and stable, minus File Roller, which has a habit of crashing. I haven't missed my old OS at all" Worth reading and advocating. :-) -volker _______________________________________________ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 10 06:06:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E28F37B401 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 06:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.web.de (smtp02.web.de [217.72.192.151]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C1F43F93 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 06:06:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jakamara@web.de) Received: from pd9ed37d6.dip.t-dialin.net ([217.237.55.214] helo=web.de) by smtp.web.de with esmtp (WEB.DE(Exim) 4.97 #53) id 193blQ-0004p4-00; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:06:48 +0200 Message-ID: <3E956C60.20700@web.de> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:06:40 +0200 From: Jakamara Bruce Jensen Organization: HaikTech User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: de-de, de, en-gb, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert , +FreeBSD en advocacy References: <3E93F627.95F34FCD@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3E93F627.95F34FCD@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: jakamara@web.de Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:06:52 -0000 Terry Lambert wrote: > Michael Josefsson wrote: >>Hear, hear! Well spoken. If we consider the system as a tool, then let >>someone set it up and let the users use it. Full stop. It's a militant >>mode but ... > Too militant. This is like saying you should need a sysadmin > for your TV in order to set the SAP, Brightness, Contrast, and > other software settings on the TV. I don't see it that way. Every user can fiddle around with own his settings for the look of his wm and other things and settings. But if he breaks it, he only has to switch back to standart, and he has a running system back agein. And no user has to care about the visual etc 'tunings' an other user has made. ciou Jakamara Bruce Jensen From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 10 07:35:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3432237B401 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A9F43F75 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:35:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0251.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.251] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 193d9Z-0006oj-00; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:35:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3E9580F3.D5FF8FCD@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:34:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jakamara Bruce Jensen References: <3E93F627.95F34FCD@mindspring.com> <3E956C60.20700@web.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b93fa8167d51c8d50c80c86638deefe4a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: +FreeBSD en advocacy Subject: Re: Brilliant and very useful for FreeBSD, IMHO X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:35:55 -0000 Jakamara Bruce Jensen wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > Michael Josefsson wrote: > >>Hear, hear! Well spoken. If we consider the system as a tool, then let > >>someone set it up and let the users use it. Full stop. It's a militant > >>mode but ... > > > Too militant. This is like saying you should need a sysadmin > > for your TV in order to set the SAP, Brightness, Contrast, and > > other software settings on the TV. > > I don't see it that way. > Every user can fiddle around with own his settings for the look of his > wm and other things and settings. > But if he breaks it, he only has to switch back to standart, and he has > a running system back agein. > And no user has to care about the visual etc 'tunings' an other user has > made. The scope of the "fiddling" with software settings is too large; I guaranteed you, I can break things in such a way that it's very had to get back to default settings, when it comes to software. The point of user interfaces is to abstract complexity; it always has been. Whether or not this is possible, or the extent to which it is possible, if it is possible, really defend on how well the parts fit. Basically this comes down to normalization. One of the big strengths of FreeBSD is the rc.conf system; it is, if we are to be honest with ourselves, a "registry". But it is also a weakness: configuration data for sendmail is not applicable to postfix, and configuration data for either one is not applicable to qmail or exim, etc.. In other words, the pieces don't fit very well, and this drives up abstract complexity, which in turn drives up interface complexity in exposed interfaces. The only really effective approach to this is manual abstraction, which is difficult and time consuming -- and tends to lose features for users. It works by abstracting common functionality out, and then providing translation between a normalized model of the abstract functionality, and then applying any configuration changes to the normalized model, instead, and then using the abstraction model to generate configuration data based on that for the underlying objects doing the actual implementation. If you want to cast this in C++ terms, the abstract model is a pure virtual base class, and each possible application that fulfills the role for the component is an implementation class, and you only get to talk to it via the member functions of the pure virtual base class. The problem with this approach, apart from spackling over any feature that's not shared between all implementations, is that there is a coupling latency between the abstract and implementation(s), and there is also, potentially, a cache coherency problem. The only way to deal with the former is to make the applications operate directly from the configuration store (as NeXTStep did with their "netinfo" database), and to internalize the normative model into the applications themselves, so that they do the work of taking the data from the common abstrct form, and interning it or externing it (e.g. in the case of statistics gathering). Now ignore the fact that this is nearly an impossible task for things like "sendmail" and "postfix", and concentrate on something simpler, like window managers with comparable functionality. And then look at the outcry when RedHat did *exactly* this, and spackled over the differences in "look and feel" between KDE and Gnome. The RedHat effort is actually the tip of the iceberg; both of these window managers allowed a user to select the other, as a "user option"; but suppose the user selected "twm" from "KDE"? The answer is that there is no reverse process. The abstract set of features that maps the intersection of functionality between the window managers, at that point, is small enough that the idea of switching back and forth is no longer reflexive. If you consider it as a grammar, you would say that "the available command set in twm is Turing incomplete". And *this* is why you must restrict user choices, if you wish to increase usability. I recommend: Context and Consciousness: Activity Theory and Human-Computer Interaction Bonnie A. Nardi, editor MIT Press ISBN: 0262140586 The Humane Interface: New Directions for Designing Interactive Systems Jef Raskin Addison-Wesley ISBN: 0201379376 Designing the User Interface Ben Shneiderman Addison Wesley Longman Higher Education ISBN: 0201694972 The User Interface Hall Of Shame http://www.iarchitect.com/mfame.htm [Note: currently down] Note that many UI designers, who are not Computer Scientists, have no idea about the normalization process, and generally "wing it". -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 10 16:24:51 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B0F37B401 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes62.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B398443FA3 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:24:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfak@telus.net) Received: from plasma ([154.5.44.11]) by priv-edtnes62.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with SMTP id <20030410232450.PAPW15875.priv-edtnes62.telusplanet.net@plasma>; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:24:50 -0600 Message-ID: <001a01c2ffb8$61211aa0$c601a8c0@plasma> From: "Peter" To: "Volker Kindermann" , References: <20030410104213.003f0632.freebsd@secspace.de> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:24:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: Re: FreeBSD 5.0 review on osnews X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:24:51 -0000 Contrary to what is article says about "dislikes", WineX _does_ work on FreeBSD 5.0. Im currently running it on my desktop, and it works fine minus the fact that I don't get very good FPS because my video card's DRM isnt fully supported by XFree86 that was included. I believe they have XFree86 4.3.0 in the ports tree now, but its just a matter of me hooking up the drive, and trying it out. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Volker Kindermann" To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 1:42 AM Subject: FreeBSD 5.0 review on osnews > Hi, > > there's a review of FreeBSD 5.0 at > > http://www.osnews.com/printer.php?news_id=3240 > > Conclusion: > > "Everything is fast and stable, minus File Roller, which has a habit of > crashing. I haven't missed my old OS at all" > > Worth reading and advocating. :-) > > -volker > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"