From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 11 11:01:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF3837B404 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74E4843F3F for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:01:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (peter@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BI1BUp080701 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:01:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h7BI1AHv080694 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200308111801.h7BI1AHv080694@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: peter set sender to owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Current problem reports assigned to you X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:01:16 -0000 Current FreeBSD problem reports Critical problems Serious problems Non-critical problems S Submitted Tracker Resp. Description ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o [2003/01/27] advocacy/47559advocacy New FreeBSD PR campaign has been started. 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 6 21:31:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1510737B408 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gawab.com (www.gawab.com [204.97.230.36]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E0D343F93 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:31:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from khaled@murbah.com) Received: (qmail 90728 invoked by uid 1004); 7 Aug 2003 04:30:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ns2) (khaled@murbah.com@217.165.244.233) by gawab.com with SMTP; 7 Aug 2003 04:30:06 -0000 Message-ID: <0d3301c35c9c$fd81c660$0101fea9@emirates.net.ae> From: "Khaled_Salem" To: Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:17:24 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:33:07 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: FREEBSD in Emirates X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 04:31:27 -0000 hello, my name is khaled salem and I want to distribute FREEBSD in = United Arab Emirates, so, I need information who I get the legal rights = to copy and distribute it legally in Emirates. waiting your reply,=20 khaled From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 01:49:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10CFB37B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5675443FDD for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:49:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3FF65526CA; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:19:43 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:19:43 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Khaled_Salem Message-ID: <20030814084943.GB10912@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <0d3301c35c9c$fd81c660$0101fea9@emirates.net.ae> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cmJC7u66zC7hs+87" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0d3301c35c9c$fd81c660$0101fea9@emirates.net.ae> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FREEBSD in Emirates X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:49:50 -0000 --cmJC7u66zC7hs+87 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] Single line paragraph On Thursday, 7 August 2003 at 8:17:24 +0400, Khaled_Salem wrote: > hello, my name is khaled salem and I want to distribute FREEBSD in > United Arab Emirates, so, I need information who I get the legal > rights to copy and distribute it legally in Emirates. You have permission to do so. Specifically, the license reads: # $FreeBSD: src/COPYRIGHT,v 1.4 1999/09/05 21:33:47 obrien Exp $ # @(#)COPYRIGHT 8.2 (Berkeley) 3/21/94 All of the documentation and software included in the 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite Releases is copyrighted by The Regents of the University of California. Copyright 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met: 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement: This product includes software developed by the University of California, Berkeley and its contributors. 4. Neither the name of the University nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission. THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE REGENTS AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE REGENTS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers and the American National Standards Committee X3, on Information Processing Systems have given us permission to reprint portions of their documentation. In the following statement, the phrase ``this text'' refers to portions of the system documentation. Portions of this text are reprinted and reproduced in electronic form in the second BSD Networking Software Release, from IEEE Std 1003.1-1988, IEEE Standard Portable Operating System Interface for Computer Environments (POSIX), copyright C 1988 by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Inc. In the event of any discrepancy between these versions and the original IEEE Standard, the original IEEE Standard is the referee document. In the following statement, the phrase ``This material'' refers to portions of the system documentation. This material is reproduced with permission from American National Standards Committee X3, on Information Processing Systems. Computer and Business Equipment Manufacturers Association (CBEMA), 311 First St., NW, Suite 500, Washington, DC 20001-2178. The developmental work of Programming Language C was completed by the X3J11 Technical Committee. The views and conclusions contained in the software and documentation are those of the authors and should not be interpreted as representing official policies, either expressed or implied, of the Regents of the University of California. NOTE: The copyright of UC Berkeley's Berkeley Software Distribution ("BSD") source has been updated. The copyright addendum may be found at ftp://ftp.cs.berkeley.edu/pub/4bsd/README.Impt.License.Change and is included below. July 22, 1999 To All Licensees, Distributors of Any Version of BSD: As you know, certain of the Berkeley Software Distribution ("BSD") source code files require that further distributions of products containing all or portions of the software, acknowledge within their advertising materials that such products contain software developed by UC Berkeley and its contributors. Specifically, the provision reads: " * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software * must display the following acknowledgement: * This product includes software developed by the University of * California, Berkeley and its contributors." Effective immediately, licensees and distributors are no longer required to include the acknowledgement within advertising materials. Accordingly, the foregoing paragraph of those BSD Unix files containing it is hereby deleted in its entirety. William Hoskins Director, Office of Technology Licensing University of California, Berkeley -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html See complete headers for address and phone numbers --cmJC7u66zC7hs+87 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/O00nIubykFB6QiMRAoBuAJ9c5hITtpA2izkgRI74M6c7cUEhIACff1k8 U6qZVoOZI/OZ0SVATm2a6t8= =jeH4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cmJC7u66zC7hs+87-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 12:13:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C83637B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:13:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web10101.mail.yahoo.com (web10101.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.51]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 40F8F43F75 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:13:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from twigles@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030814191319.27694.qmail@web10101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.5.49.41] by web10101.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:13:19 PDT Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:13:19 -0700 (PDT) From: twig les To: Robert Watson , Mike Hoskins In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: security@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Certification (was RE: realpath(3) et al) - jumping to -advocacy X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:13:20 -0000 I am CC'ing -advocacy on this so we can officially move this thread over (bc getting chastised hurts my inner-child). Please don't CC -security anymore, although I am in no position whatsoever to enforce this request. Now, to the topic... I have the distinct pleasure of working at a huge telco so I have a pretty good sense of what big business wants in computing, which is: big-name company, commercial, supported, reliable software/hardware with "canned" interoperability with other like hardware/software. So what would really push FreeBSD in the eyes of my non-tech bosses (legion, for there are many) are things like: RSA Ace server natively, which I believe the library exists, it just costs $2000 or so, so this one might be BS. A large company that has a roll-out hardware/software package. This includes support. I *know* that it is easy to patch/make world, but the number of "computer engineers" that have never heard of SSH is astounding. Management needs a 3rd-party to bitch about and know will still be around in 5 years. A console port on the hardware platform. Have you ever tried sending management to the pcweasel web site? As silly as it sounds (and I understand how silly it sounds), a certification like the Red Hack one would help. I apologize profusely for saying that. I'm sure I'm missing a lot but if we want a corporate sponsor like my massive mother company (which rhymes with AT&C) then it seems like we need different medium companies pushing FreeBSD instead of redhat as a packaged solution. --- Robert Watson wrote: > > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Mike Hoskins wrote: > > > i also agree with what you say here, in some sense. that > is, we want > > fewer bugs more than certification X. however, while 'fewer > bugs' is > > the better thing in the minds of most coders/admins... > 'grade A > > security' is often the most prominent thing in the minds of > the people > > with money... often the people who make the decissions. > i.e. which OS > > gets installed on FBI and NSA computers. ;) lots of > beuracracy > > there... so having 'certification X' could get fbsd in > doors it would > > not otherwise be allowed to enter. that's not purely a > security issue, > > but certianly one i'd like to consider as important. > however, i fully > > agree this portion of the discussion can move to -advocacy. > > > > if we can agree on a given cert that's worthwhile (in some > sense, like > > the one SuSe seems to have accquired)... who is the best > person to make > > the case to -advocacy? i haven't been subscribed in awhile, > but i guess > > it's time to re-subscribe. :) how hard would it be to get > corporations > > involved? even without massive corporate support, if the > issue is given > > enough visibility... i'd think getting smaller donations > from a large > > number of people should not be impossible. (people do buy > CDs, > > afterall...) > > SuSe has a low assurance (EAL2) evaluation against a > custom-written > evaluation criteria. I think a much better target would be a > higher > assurance level (EAL3) against a consumer-desired target (such > as CAPP). > Otherwise, it's really a press release, not an evaluation. As > I mentioned > before, if you want to get into the certification game, what > you really > want is an end-consumer in DoD (or wherever) willing to push > for the > evaluation of FreeBSD in their organization so that once you > have it > evaluated, you have someone who will use it, not to mention > help you > navigate the certification waters. I think smaller donations > would be > great, but I also think that the cost you're looking at for > evaluation is > probably in excess of what you'd be able to get together in > small > donations--to do CAPP at EAL3, I really can't imagine it > costing less than > 500k, which is a lot of small donations :-). > > The best way to get FreeBSD evaluated is to make the sell for > FreeBSD in > environments that require evaluation -- those places are > probably capable > of helping to foot an evaluation bill if they decide they want > to run > FreeBSD. So from an advocacy perspective, that means keeping > research > organizations building new technology on FreeBSD, helping > defense > contractors use FreeBSD to solve real-world problems, etc. > > I agree the certification has value, but it isn't equivilent > to code > review or secure development practices, at least a the lower > assurance > levels. I'd like to see FreeBSD receive certifications a > great deal, and > I'd like very much to help provide the technical pieces to > make that > possible. It's one of the important motivations for doing the > TrustedBSD > work: make sure that if an organization comes along wanting to > evaluate > FreeBSD, we've made it as easy for them as possible by > providing the > technical pieces they need. > > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD > Projects > robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-security@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-security > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-security-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" ===== ----------------------------------------------------------- Emo is what happens when the glee club goes punk. ----------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 12:25:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A1337B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FDD443FBD for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:25:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EJOTAL028736; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:24:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)h7EJOTYn028733; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:24:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:24:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: twig les In-Reply-To: <20030814191319.27694.qmail@web10101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Certification (was RE: realpath(3) et al) - jumping to -advocacy X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:25:01 -0000 On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, twig les wrote: > I am CC'ing -advocacy on this so we can officially move this thread over > (bc getting chastised hurts my inner-child). Please don't CC -security > anymore, although I am in no position whatsoever to enforce this > request. Now, to the topic... I certainly didn't mean to chastise :-). I was just saying that certifications are odd things -- they have value in strange ways. My main concern was that people seemed to think it had value from a practical security implementation perspective -- I'm not sure that it does. It's value is entirely in market, PR, et al, and I agree that there is substantial value to be had there, if approached the right way. > A large company that has a roll-out hardware/software package. This > includes support. I *know* that it is easy to patch/make world, but the > number of "computer engineers" that have never heard of SSH is > astounding. Management needs a 3rd-party to bitch about and know will > still be around in 5 years. > > A console port on the hardware platform. Have you ever tried sending > management to the pcweasel web site? > > As silly as it sounds (and I understand how silly it sounds), a > certification like the Red Hack one would help. I apologize profusely > for saying that. > > I'm sure I'm missing a lot but if we want a corporate sponsor like my > massive mother company (which rhymes with AT&C) then it seems like we > need different medium companies pushing FreeBSD instead of redhat as a > packaged solution. I agree with these conclusions entirely. RedHat plays a valuable role in the Linux world in a variety of ways, and one of the most important is to provide the kind of support and legitimacy presence that many large companies are looking for. Having one for the FreeBSD world would certainly provide a lot of swing for FreeBSD. It would also change the dynamic of the FreeBSD Project substantially, I expect, but it would be hard to predict too much how. I think that many people hoped that BSDi could play this role for FreeBSD, but obviously that didn't work out :-). So, if you know of a small company that wants to get bigger, and wants to give a spin at promoting FreeBSD in this manner (and making money off it in a sustainable way), I would encourage you to encourage them. I'm sure there are a fair number of FreeBSD developers who would like to work for such a company, if they thought it was viable. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 12:39:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5253737B401; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5017A43F3F; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:39:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02 ([157.226.230.209]:4874 helo=mvaexch02.acuson.com) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19nNwG-0001kA-5A; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:39:12 -0700 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:38:19 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-151.acuson.com ([157.226.46.151]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id Q8CLFXTQ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:37:34 -0700 From: Johnson David To: Robert Watson Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:38:25 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308141238.26165.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19nNwG-0001kA-5A*//mXirkYVq2* X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Certification (was RE: realpath(3) et al) - jumping to -advocacy X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:39:17 -0000 On Thursday 14 August 2003 12:24 pm, Robert Watson wrote: > I agree with these conclusions entirely. RedHat plays a valuable > role in the Linux world in a variety of ways, and one of the most > important is to provide the kind of support and legitimacy presence > that many large companies are looking for. I concur. I didn't find the suggestion silly at all. Rather it was quite sensible. What is silly is the idea that ultraspecific certifications mean anything. "Im sorry sir, we looking for a Certified AIX Administrator, but your resume shows that you only know about HPUX, IRIX, Solaris and FreeBSD." > So, if you know of a small company that wants to get bigger, and > wants to give a spin at promoting FreeBSD in this manner (and making > money off it in a sustainable way), I would encourage you to > encourage them. I'm sure there are a fair number of FreeBSD > developers who would like to work for such a company, if they thought > it was viable. I'll gladly jump ship to join such a company. Clue me if if anything shows up on the radar. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 13:14:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD29937B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web10104.mail.yahoo.com (web10104.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.54]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EDC5343F93 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:14:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from twigles@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030814201451.21523.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.5.49.41] by web10104.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:14:51 PDT Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:14:51 -0700 (PDT) From: twig les To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Certification (was RE: realpath(3) et al) - jumping to -advocacy X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:14:53 -0000 I think a nice website to have would be one devoted to using FreeBSD as a drop-in replacement for Solaris, i.e. in a corporate environment. Speaking of PR certifications, I'm busy for the next month renewing my CISSP but after that I will look at registering a domain like "CorporateBSD.com" or something. Since I'm a lousy developer, this will alleviate my guilt for not contributing code. The basic idea is to either host or link to tons of how-tos that address corporate concerns like patch roll-outs and hot-spares. --- Robert Watson wrote: > > On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, twig les wrote: > > > I am CC'ing -advocacy on this so we can officially move this > thread over > > (bc getting chastised hurts my inner-child). Please don't > CC -security > > anymore, although I am in no position whatsoever to enforce > this > > request. Now, to the topic... > > I certainly didn't mean to chastise :-). I was just saying > that > certifications are odd things -- they have value in strange > ways. My main > concern was that people seemed to think it had value from a > practical > security implementation perspective -- I'm not sure that it > does. It's > value is entirely in market, PR, et al, and I agree that there > is > substantial value to be had there, if approached the right > way. > > > A large company that has a roll-out hardware/software > package. This > > includes support. I *know* that it is easy to patch/make > world, but the > > number of "computer engineers" that have never heard of SSH > is > > astounding. Management needs a 3rd-party to bitch about and > know will > > still be around in 5 years. > > > > A console port on the hardware platform. Have you ever > tried sending > > management to the pcweasel web site? > > > > As silly as it sounds (and I understand how silly it > sounds), a > > certification like the Red Hack one would help. I apologize > profusely > > for saying that. > > > > I'm sure I'm missing a lot but if we want a corporate > sponsor like my > > massive mother company (which rhymes with AT&C) then it > seems like we > > need different medium companies pushing FreeBSD instead of > redhat as a > > packaged solution. > > I agree with these conclusions entirely. RedHat plays a > valuable role in > the Linux world in a variety of ways, and one of the most > important is to > provide the kind of support and legitimacy presence that many > large > companies are looking for. Having one for the FreeBSD world > would > certainly provide a lot of swing for FreeBSD. It would also > change the > dynamic of the FreeBSD Project substantially, I expect, but it > would be > hard to predict too much how. I think that many people hoped > that BSDi > could play this role for FreeBSD, but obviously that didn't > work out :-). > > So, if you know of a small company that wants to get bigger, > and wants to > give a spin at promoting FreeBSD in this manner (and making > money off it > in a sustainable way), I would encourage you to encourage > them. I'm sure > there are a fair number of FreeBSD developers who would like > to work for > such a company, if they thought it was viable. > > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD > Projects > robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories > > ===== ----------------------------------------------------------- Emo is what happens when the glee club goes punk. ----------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 13:36:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD18D37B401; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep14-int.chello.nl (amsfep14-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42E1643FE3; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:36:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from internal ([213.46.141.159]) by amsfep14-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030814203629.HZGL15718.amsfep14-int.chello.nl@internal>; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:36:29 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: "'twig les'" , "'Robert Watson'" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:36:19 +0200 Organization: SiteTronics Message-ID: <000401c362a3$bb64c2c0$9f8d2ed5@internal> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030814201451.21523.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Certification (was RE: realpath(3) et al) - jumping to -advocacy X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:36:33 -0000 Likewise, I am registering bsdportal.org (so none of you take it :P) where I will write some stuff. A taste of some of it is already in my /. journal, for the time being (http://slashdot.org/~dodell/journal, for what it's worth). I'd really like to see this certification go through but, as I've stated multiple times already, I'd like to see a project sincerely devoted to getting these funs raised. I am (at the moment) a "systems and network engineer" by title, but have extensive knowledge of backend server development (although you'd probably only know me about PHP) in many languages. I'd love to contribute any time and effort I have available to the advancement of this project. PLEASE let me know how I can help out. --Devon > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- > advocacy@freebsd.org] Namens twig les > Verzonden: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:15 PM > Aan: Robert Watson > CC: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Onderwerp: Re: Certification (was RE: realpath(3) et al) - jumping to - > advocacy > > I think a nice website to have would be one devoted to using > FreeBSD as a drop-in replacement for Solaris, i.e. in a > corporate environment. Speaking of PR certifications, I'm busy > for the next month renewing my CISSP but after that I will look > at registering a domain like "CorporateBSD.com" or something. > Since I'm a lousy developer, this will alleviate my guilt for > not contributing code. The basic idea is to either host or link > to tons of how-tos that address corporate concerns like patch > roll-outs and hot-spares. > > --- Robert Watson wrote: > > > > On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, twig les wrote: > > > > > I am CC'ing -advocacy on this so we can officially move this > > thread over > > > (bc getting chastised hurts my inner-child). Please don't > > CC -security > > > anymore, although I am in no position whatsoever to enforce > > this > > > request. Now, to the topic... > > > > I certainly didn't mean to chastise :-). I was just saying > > that > > certifications are odd things -- they have value in strange > > ways. My main > > concern was that people seemed to think it had value from a > > practical > > security implementation perspective -- I'm not sure that it > > does. It's > > value is entirely in market, PR, et al, and I agree that there > > is > > substantial value to be had there, if approached the right > > way. > > > > > A large company that has a roll-out hardware/software > > package. This > > > includes support. I *know* that it is easy to patch/make > > world, but the > > > number of "computer engineers" that have never heard of SSH > > is > > > astounding. Management needs a 3rd-party to bitch about and > > know will > > > still be around in 5 years. > > > > > > A console port on the hardware platform. Have you ever > > tried sending > > > management to the pcweasel web site? > > > > > > As silly as it sounds (and I understand how silly it > > sounds), a > > > certification like the Red Hack one would help. I apologize > > profusely > > > for saying that. > > > > > > I'm sure I'm missing a lot but if we want a corporate > > sponsor like my > > > massive mother company (which rhymes with AT&C) then it > > seems like we > > > need different medium companies pushing FreeBSD instead of > > redhat as a > > > packaged solution. > > > > I agree with these conclusions entirely. RedHat plays a > > valuable role in > > the Linux world in a variety of ways, and one of the most > > important is to > > provide the kind of support and legitimacy presence that many > > large > > companies are looking for. Having one for the FreeBSD world > > would > > certainly provide a lot of swing for FreeBSD. It would also > > change the > > dynamic of the FreeBSD Project substantially, I expect, but it > > would be > > hard to predict too much how. I think that many people hoped > > that BSDi > > could play this role for FreeBSD, but obviously that didn't > > work out :-). > > > > So, if you know of a small company that wants to get bigger, > > and wants to > > give a spin at promoting FreeBSD in this manner (and making > > money off it > > in a sustainable way), I would encourage you to encourage > > them. I'm sure > > there are a fair number of FreeBSD developers who would like > > to work for > > such a company, if they thought it was viable. > > > > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD > > Projects > > robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories > > > > > > > ===== > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Emo is what happens when the glee club goes punk. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy- > unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 13:43:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A59137B404; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep13-int.chello.nl (amsfep13-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04E543FBF; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:43:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from internal ([213.46.141.159]) by amsfep13-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030814204259.POWT16676.amsfep13-int.chello.nl@internal>; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:42:59 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: "'Robert Watson'" , "'twig les'" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:42:54 +0200 Organization: SiteTronics Message-ID: <000501c362a4$a3986ce0$9f8d2ed5@internal> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Certification (was RE: realpath(3) et al) - jumping to -advocacy X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:43:02 -0000 > I certainly didn't mean to chastise :-). I was just saying that > certifications are odd things -- they have value in strange ways. My = main > concern was that people seemed to think it had value from a practical > security implementation perspective -- I'm not sure that it does. = It's > value is entirely in market, PR, et al, and I agree that there is > substantial value to be had there, if approached the right way. Since I brought up the subject, I'd like to clarify that I wasn't = promoting the idea from a security perspective; I'm sorry that I posted it there instead of here, in the first place. I concur that its value is in the fields you specify and that it must be approached in said right way = (which is why I'm also hesitating with going ahead and donating for this = cause). I think the first step is figuring out how we're going to go at this; the = next step is making it publicly known and raking in the dough to make it = happen ;) > I agree with these conclusions entirely. RedHat plays a valuable role = in > the Linux world in a variety of ways, and one of the most important is = to > provide the kind of support and legitimacy presence that many large > companies are looking for. Having one for the FreeBSD world would > certainly provide a lot of swing for FreeBSD. It would also change = the > dynamic of the FreeBSD Project substantially, I expect, but it would = be > hard to predict too much how. I think that many people hoped that = BSDi > could play this role for FreeBSD, but obviously that didn't work out = :-). RedHat is pretty much Linux' college daddy at this point (discounting = SuSE) in that it spends tons of money with the R&D of Linux. There's obviously = not this financial "father" of FreeBSD at this point, but if we work hard enough, I think we can get a bunch of kids to give us their "lunch = money" (so to speak). =20 > So, if you know of a small company that wants to get bigger, and wants = to > give a spin at promoting FreeBSD in this manner (and making money off = it > in a sustainable way), I would encourage you to encourage them. I'm = sure > there are a fair number of FreeBSD developers who would like to work = for > such a company, if they thought it was viable. I would certainly love to do this. Let me know when this company starts = (or when you're starting one). I don't have the financial or business = capacity to start it. --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 14:03:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77CF537B401; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fubar.adept.org (fubar.adept.org [63.147.172.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0FC943FBD; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:03:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by fubar.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 56E0915256; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fubar.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55D341524D; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:03:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: twig les In-Reply-To: <20030814191319.27694.qmail@web10101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030814135153.I19401@fubar.adept.org> References: <20030814191319.27694.qmail@web10101.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Certification (was RE: realpath(3) et al) - jumping to -advocacy X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:03:50 -0000 -security CC removed... retaining the others in case you're not on advocacy. On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, twig les wrote: > I have the distinct pleasure of working at a huge telco so I > have a pretty good sense of what big business wants in > computing, which is: big-name company, commercial, supported, > reliable software/hardware with "canned" interoperability with > other like hardware/software. how about stability, performance/robustness, ease of upgradability/maintainability... i agree with what you say, but we should remember our current strengths as well when making the corporate case. i don't believe we're bad for the corporate world now, just that we could be better. > RSA Ace server natively, which I believe the library exists, it > just costs $2000 or so, so this one might be BS. how feasible is this? i can't really comment. > A large company that has a roll-out hardware/software package. > This includes support. I *know* that it is easy to patch/make > world, but the number of "computer engineers" that have never > heard of SSH is astounding. Management needs a 3rd-party to > bitch about and know will still be around in 5 years. support's one thing -- just don't turn the project into RH. no offense to the RH fans, but i don't personally like the way they've went. computer engineers that haven't heard of SSH is... more of a training issue, right? i'm not saying it wouldn't behoove us to help those people along, but it is a slightly different topic perhaps. along those lines, i'm trying to workup a script that uses the various FreeBSD security checklists to 'secure' a base system. something like bastille, for BSD. (and probably only CLI-based, for now.) others have had that idea as well, and i've sort of been waiting to see if it materializes. > A console port on the hardware platform. Have you ever tried > sending management to the pcweasel web site? that depends on the hardware, yes? i just got a handfull of new dell 1650s that have serial port/console redirection built into the BIOS. i'm going to play with getting that working on 4.8-s later today... i'm hoping it's cake, so don't expect a need for any sort of writeup. if that's not the case, i'll write a little howto and link it into the codereview.org site. > As silly as it sounds (and I understand how silly it sounds), a > certification like the Red Hack one would help. I apologize > profusely for saying that. this is just like my request for 3rd-party security certification... getting the cert doesn't (necessarily) say anything about your product, it's more of a PR/press issue. i think it has value, just like 3rd-party security certs, in that it encourages acceptance amongst certain types of people who may otherwise never consider our product. that said... how would we make it a reality? > I'm sure I'm missing a lot but if we want a corporate sponsor > like my massive mother company (which rhymes with AT&C) then it > seems like we need different medium companies pushing FreeBSD > instead of redhat as a packaged solution. i fight the war every day to replace RH with FreeBSD. in the places i've been (admittedly, only a few), that wasn't too hard (if you're willing to do the work yourself). the only time it's been hard, to date, has been places (including now) where a lot of RH boxes are being used to run backend Java apps. Java's came a long way, and i thank all the folks that've made the patchsets happen... but it's hard to justify that switch in production environments right now. i've found it easier to switch to more-manageable Linux environments in those cases, like Gentoo. still, since IBM (the JDK we currently use) develops specifically on RH... the guys with the money like to see RH on the backend. (for now.) -mrh -- From: "Spam Catcher" To: spam-catcher@adept.org Do NOT send email to the address listed above or you will be added to a blacklist! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 15:07:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C0337B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web10107.mail.yahoo.com (web10107.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8CCC643FCB for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:07:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from twigles@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030814220740.28924.qmail@web10107.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.5.49.41] by web10107.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:07:40 PDT Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:07:40 -0700 (PDT) From: twig les To: "Devon H. O'Dell" , 'Robert Watson' In-Reply-To: <000401c362a3$bb64c2c0$9f8d2ed5@internal> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Certification (was RE: realpath(3) et al) - jumping to -advocacy X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:07:41 -0000 Cool, I don't need to own the domain. I just think that right now the state of things is that FreeBSD is the best-kept secret around because Linux is taking market share from everyone - hell, my *dad* knows about Linux and he's one of those users from "Evil Geniuses". There is a nice article in businessweek talking about Sun's dilemna here: http://yahoo.businessweek.com/technology/content/aug2003/tc20030812_9215_tc055.htm. A lot of people ask me why I use (or suggest) FreeBSD instead of Linux and I tell them that I only use or recommend FreeBSD when I need something to be fast, secure and/or stable. :) The idea is that the underlying engineering is done, now we need to push it to da' masses. I also agree with mhoskins, I don't want FreeBSD to turn into RH; RH seems to be trying to replace the knowledgable admin with GUIs and "help" files. --- "Devon H. O'Dell" wrote: > Likewise, I am registering bsdportal.org (so none of you take > it :P) where I > will write some stuff. A taste of some of it is already in my > /. journal, > for the time being (http://slashdot.org/~dodell/journal, for > what it's > worth). I'd really like to see this certification go through > but, as I've > stated multiple times already, I'd like to see a project > sincerely devoted > to getting these funs raised. I am (at the moment) a "systems > and network > engineer" by title, but have extensive knowledge of backend > server > development (although you'd probably only know me about PHP) > in many > languages. I'd love to contribute any time and effort I have > available to > the advancement of this project. > > PLEASE let me know how I can help out. > > --Devon > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd- > > advocacy@freebsd.org] Namens twig les > > Verzonden: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:15 PM > > Aan: Robert Watson > > CC: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > > Onderwerp: Re: Certification (was RE: realpath(3) et al) - > jumping to - > > advocacy > > > > I think a nice website to have would be one devoted to using > > FreeBSD as a drop-in replacement for Solaris, i.e. in a > > corporate environment. Speaking of PR certifications, I'm > busy > > for the next month renewing my CISSP but after that I will > look > > at registering a domain like "CorporateBSD.com" or > something. > > Since I'm a lousy developer, this will alleviate my guilt > for > > not contributing code. The basic idea is to either host or > link > > to tons of how-tos that address corporate concerns like > patch > > roll-outs and hot-spares. > > > > --- Robert Watson wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, twig les wrote: > > > > > > > I am CC'ing -advocacy on this so we can officially move > this > > > thread over > > > > (bc getting chastised hurts my inner-child). Please > don't > > > CC -security > > > > anymore, although I am in no position whatsoever to > enforce > > > this > > > > request. Now, to the topic... > > > > > > I certainly didn't mean to chastise :-). I was just > saying > > > that > > > certifications are odd things -- they have value in > strange > > > ways. My main > > > concern was that people seemed to think it had value from > a > > > practical > > > security implementation perspective -- I'm not sure that > it > > > does. It's > > > value is entirely in market, PR, et al, and I agree that > there > > > is > > > substantial value to be had there, if approached the right > > > way. > > > > > > > A large company that has a roll-out hardware/software > > > package. This > > > > includes support. I *know* that it is easy to > patch/make > > > world, but the > > > > number of "computer engineers" that have never heard of > SSH > > > is > > > > astounding. Management needs a 3rd-party to bitch about > and > > > know will > > > > still be around in 5 years. > > > > > > > > A console port on the hardware platform. Have you ever > > > tried sending > > > > management to the pcweasel web site? > > > > > > > > As silly as it sounds (and I understand how silly it > > > sounds), a > > > > certification like the Red Hack one would help. I > apologize > > > profusely > > > > for saying that. > > > > > > > > I'm sure I'm missing a lot but if we want a corporate > > > sponsor like my > > > > massive mother company (which rhymes with AT&C) then it > > > seems like we > > > > need different medium companies pushing FreeBSD instead > of > > > redhat as a > > > > packaged solution. > > > > > > I agree with these conclusions entirely. RedHat plays a > > > valuable role in > > > the Linux world in a variety of ways, and one of the most > > > important is to > > > provide the kind of support and legitimacy presence that > many > > > large > > > companies are looking for. Having one for the FreeBSD > world > > > would > > > certainly provide a lot of swing for FreeBSD. It would > also > > > change the > > > dynamic of the FreeBSD Project substantially, I expect, > but it > > > would be > > > hard to predict too much how. I think that many people > hoped > > > that BSDi > > > could play this role for FreeBSD, but obviously that > didn't > > > work out :-). > > > > > > So, if you know of a small company that wants to get > bigger, > > > and wants to > > > give a spin at promoting FreeBSD in this manner (and > making > > > money off it > > > in a sustainable way), I would encourage you to encourage > > > them. I'm sure > > > there are a fair number of FreeBSD developers who would > like > > > to work for > > > such a company, if they thought it was viable. > > > > > > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, > TrustedBSD > > > Projects > > > robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates > Laboratories > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Emo is what happens when the glee club goes punk. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design > software > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy- > > unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > ===== ----------------------------------------------------------- Emo is what happens when the glee club goes punk. ----------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 15:11:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DE6937B401; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep15-int.chello.nl (amsfep15-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3BFD43FDF; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:11:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from internal ([213.46.141.159]) by amsfep15-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030814221150.EZBS23618.amsfep15-int.chello.nl@internal>; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:11:50 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: "'twig les'" , "'Robert Watson'" Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:11:45 +0200 Organization: SiteTronics Message-ID: <001701c362b1$0d087f60$9f8d2ed5@internal> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030814220740.28924.qmail@web10107.mail.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Certification (was RE: realpath(3) et al) - jumping to -advocacy X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:11:53 -0000 Well, I don't find configuring FreeBSD inherently esoteric. The = filesystem structure ensures that configuration files are in the right places. And = when you don't know where they are, it's relatively easy to find them: look = where they're expected. I find that with Linux, you have to look in the refrigerator to find your car keys, so to speak. find / | grep carkeys doesn't even work half the time. The only thing I'd like to see happen here is that FreeBSD becomes as advocated as RedHat -- no changes to the underlying system. It just = needs to be more widely accepted. I'm tired of the unbased criticisms I have to = face when discussing BSD. 99% of it is total BS, and something needs to = happen about it. --Devon > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: twig les [mailto:twigles@yahoo.com] > Verzonden: Friday, August 15, 2003 12:08 AM > Aan: Devon H. O'Dell; 'Robert Watson' > CC: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Onderwerp: RE: Certification (was RE: realpath(3) et al) - jumping to = - > advocacy >=20 > Cool, I don't need to own the domain. I just think that right > now the state of things is that FreeBSD is the best-kept secret > around because Linux is taking market share from everyone - > hell, my *dad* knows about Linux and he's one of those users > from "Evil Geniuses". There is a nice article in businessweek > talking about Sun's dilemna here: > = http://yahoo.businessweek.com/technology/content/aug2003/tc20030812_9215_= t > c055.htm. >=20 > A lot of people ask me why I use (or suggest) FreeBSD instead of > Linux and I tell them that I only use or recommend FreeBSD when > I need something to be fast, secure and/or stable. :) The idea > is that the underlying engineering is done, now we need to push > it to da' masses. >=20 > I also agree with mhoskins, I don't want FreeBSD to turn into > RH; RH seems to be trying to replace the knowledgable admin with > GUIs and "help" files.