From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 3:30:58 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D0A37B401 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 03:30:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDBF43EA9 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 03:30:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (shub@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id h018o3f12589; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 03:50:04 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E0FF119.7792A270@mindspring.com> References: <3E0DC536.8010001@slaudiovis.org> <3E0EBC49.86AD7E28@mindspring.com> <3E0FF119.7792A270@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 02:27:54 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Backup Solutions Cc: Brad Knowles , Patrick Cable II , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:09 PM -0800 2002/12/29, Terry Lambert wrote: > For Windows and Macintosh, you are most likely to be using some > Microsoft based solution, like Access, or Access with a Microsoft > SQL back end. You say I'm going to be using *WHAT* to do a file/filesystem level backup of my Mac?!? You know, the one running MacOS X, which is a Mach kernel with a BSD userland? If you're talking databases on Macs, then you're probably talking Filemaker or something like that. And that's a totally different kettle of fish than anything related to anything remotely resembling anything relating to Microsoft. > In etiher case, the offline backup is still needed for the reasons > stated previously. That business uses tape to do a rotating offsite > backup, with an incremental and full archival dump schedule. These > require that people exit the applications, so it can be some work > walking around the office after hours, for the person doing it, if > anyone has left their machine on and accessing a record in any of > them. In our case, we're talking about laptops that will probably be somewhere else in the house, networked via 802.11b with a proper software VPN solution for real security. There would definitely need to be some automated process to fire up the backup script to run overnight, and to shut the machine down when it's done. >> Is there an Amanda PC/Windows client? Or an Amanda MacOS X >> client? > > There is one in beta right now. IT's available from: > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/amanda-win32/ > > It doesn't seem to have been updated since last June. 8-(. > > You probably are not going to find it useful, due to the "open > file backup" problem. The normal way to handle "open file backup" > on windows is to install an IFSMgr hook to hook calls into the > IFS manager. You can then use the existing open instance for the > file in question in order to back it up. Sounds good. I don't suppose anyone knows if anyone is ever planning on adding features like this to the Amanda PC client? > This is usually not > very satisfying for database files, since the transactional > representation of atomicity and/or idempotence to the application > are done at the database application level, and can't be guaranteed > at the IFSMgr level (there is no nesting information pushed by the > application to the IFSMgr, so you can wait for a 1->0 nesting level > for transactions in progress to complete, before doing your backup). While these issues may be important to others, we do not currently have any call for databases like this in our house. If we ever do have any databases, it will most likely be MySQL or PostgreSQL databases that I have on a FreeBSD server in the basement, and I'll have to figure out how to back that up as a separate issue. > The most common method is to export the FS as a share, and then > use Amanda with SAMBA (client) in order to back up the data; this > has the same problems. See the online book at: > > http://www.backupcentral.com/amanda.html > > specifically: > > http://www.backupcentral.com/amanda-13.html There are not currently any Unix filesystems in our house being exported via Samba, as there are currently not any Unix fileservers in the house. When I do set up the fileservers, there almost certainly won't ever be any databases running on the exported filesystems, so I would be inclined to believe that these filesystems should be backed up from the client side. As far as this specific stuff is concerned, I know Curt and used to work with him. I was an uncredited reviewer of _Using SANs and NAS_, and I imagine that I will probably be a reviewer for 2nd edition of his book on backups (whenever we get to that stage). I'm not worried so much about the server backup issues, at least not per se. I am more concerned about the client file/filesysystem backup issues, and how I can get that data onto a server where I can reliably back it up somewhere else. Moreover, I want to use freely available software and reasonably inexpensive hardware, which is a good part of the reason why FreeBSD would also be involved on the server side. >> What about the handling of tape swapping, archiving, and >> other things normally done with stackers and libraries? > > You use stackers and libraries. 8-). IIRC, Amanda doesn't support stackers or libraries. Are there any other tools that do? > In most cases, you are talking about spending money for commercial > software, since the professional database backup software is often > a seperate product add-on. At the moment, we're not using any database software, so anything specific to databases is not currently relevant, although I do want to keep these things in mind as I try to design a comprehensive backup solution. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 4:44:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F2FB37B401 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 04:44:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (sleepy.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7387F43E4A for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 04:44:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tim@sleepy.wojomedia.com) Received: (qmail 14193 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Jan 2003 12:44:19 -0000 Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 06:44:19 -0600 From: Tim To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Backup Solutions Message-ID: <20030101124419.GA14165@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <3E0DC536.8010001@slaudiovis.org> <3E0EBC49.86AD7E28@mindspring.com> <3E0FF119.7792A270@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 01, 2003 at 02:27:54AM -0600, Brad Knowles wrote: > IIRC, Amanda doesn't support stackers or libraries. Are there > any other tools that do? Amanda supports stackers and libraries just fine. Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 6: 5:45 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD0E237B405 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 06:05:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7070243EC2 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 06:05:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18TjV7-0006XN-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 01 Jan 2003 14:05:41 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 118CE1668 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:05:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 8D874F04 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:05:29 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id 2C6F6225D9; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:05:30 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:05:30 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Message-ID: <20030101140530.GA11468@raggedclown.net> References: <200212312041.gBVKfr183480@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Let's stop kicking Richard Stallman. He has his own agenda. But GCC is why you can compile FreeBSD. Any of you ever tried to write a compiler ? I have, it is not easy. And I am a self-professed genius. Funny how no-one else recognises that. I toyed with it a long time. I wanted a language that would be intuitive. It would learn, as humans do. Thousands of lines of "C" code later I realised it was impossible. Sentience is how we learn. Sentience is not possible with a technology based on 0/1. The universe is not binary. "Half-way down the stairs is a stair where I sit. There isn't any other stair quite like it. It's not at the bottom, it's not at the top. It really isn't anywhere, it's somewhere else instead" And it is in our time to name names. I would like to thank Gary Swearingem (that maybe an "n" and not an "m") for his persistence in refusing my attempts at apology. He alone, has reduced the FreeBSD community by one. Me, I just burned the Redhat CD's. So it goes. 2003, and we have gotten nowhere. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 11:38:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A314E37B401 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 11:38:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1319F43ED1 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 11:38:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0187.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.187] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Togw-0006MI-00; Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:38:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3E13434F.D3F7A35D@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:36:47 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200212312041.gBVKfr183480@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> <20030101140530.GA11468@raggedclown.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a468820cf4a8969f73b838287c5a4b8373548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson wrote: > Let's stop kicking Richard Stallman. > He has his own agenda. > But GCC is why you can compile FreeBSD. > Any of you ever tried to write a compiler ? > I have, it is not easy. And I am a self-professed genius. > Funny how no-one else recognises that. Maybe you aren't professing it loud enough? 8-) 8-) 8-O... Seriously, though, there are a number of possible compilers, but FreeBSD keeps adding constructs and removing portability, and, in general, getting more and more GCC dependent, as time goes on (hmmm... RMS paying pwople off?...). In any case, a compiler is almost trivial; what's hard, and takes specialized knowledge, is optimizing, and code generation, for more than one CPU family. RMS' great contribution in this regard is *not* the compiler itself; what he contributed there is actually a mediocre set of code, that other people then worked on to turn it into what it is today. In fact, he had to eat crow on EGCS to get it to be only a version successor to GCC, rather than a competing project. So RMS's contribution was the project, itself: the difficulty of writing a compiler is actually irrelevent to the discussion. It's amazing to me the number of people who claim to study the Open Source Software phenomenon, yet don't understand the basic principles through which it actually functions, well enough to start, or help start, a project and have it persist. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 12:20:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B279F37B4E9 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0A2D43EA9 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:20:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h01KKkh00779; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:20:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:20:46 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Message-ID: <20030101152046.D32360@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030101140530.GA11468@raggedclown.net> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson wrote: > And it is in our time to name names. > I would like to thank Gary Swearingem (that maybe an "n" and not an "m") > for his persistence in refusing my attempts at apology. > He alone, has reduced the FreeBSD community by one. I don't see why you're forming an opinion of the community by reading -chat. It's quite unrepresentative, and the individual you named isn't even a committer. You may as well form an opinion of the "linux community" by reading slashdot at -1. > Me, I just burned the Redhat CD's. Good luck... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 12:29:37 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837FB37B401 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:29:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D173B43EB2 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:29:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0288.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.33] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TpU1-0004hL-00; Wed, 01 Jan 2003 12:28:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3E134F1A.931CA7BF@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 12:27:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Patrick Cable II , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Backup Solutions References: <3E0DC536.8010001@slaudiovis.org> <3E0EBC49.86AD7E28@mindspring.com> <3E0FF119.7792A270@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4d5dc658c0a608eade6d7fe2201e8f973387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 11:09 PM -0800 2002/12/29, Terry Lambert wrote: > > For Windows and Macintosh, you are most likely to be using some > > Microsoft based solution, like Access, or Access with a Microsoft > > SQL back end. > > You say I'm going to be using *WHAT* to do a file/filesystem > level backup of my Mac?!? You know, the one running MacOS X, which > is a Mach kernel with a BSD userland? You are going to use software from the database vendor to dump the database contents into a form which flattens out pending transactions so there are none in progress at the time you take your bckup snapshot. If your database vendor is Microsoft, then you are going to use the Microsoft tools for this. > If you're talking databases on Macs, then you're probably talking > Filemaker or something like that. And that's a totally different > kettle of fish than anything related to anything remotely resembling > anything relating to Microsoft. The actual vendor is not relevent; what is relevent is that you are going to be stuck with vendor supplied tools to do the work. > In our case, we're talking about laptops that will probably be > somewhere else in the house, networked via 802.11b with a proper > software VPN solution for real security. There would definitely need > to be some automated process to fire up the backup script to run > overnight, and to shut the machine down when it's done. Client backup solutions suck. The best client backup solution is to store no data on the clients, and back up the server. The next best solution is to constrain all user data to a subhierarchy of the system directory tree, dividing completely machine instance data from user data. This has the side effect of making it very easy to transition data from an old machine to a new machine, simply by copying a folder. A high-latency mechism would be to use the "briefcase" paradigm; the berifcase is then periodically synchronized with a fixed PC system. This approach, uh, "sucks", unless you are willing to seperately dedicate a desktop machine for every laptop machine. An alternative is client/server backup, with a backup client that is installed on the laptop, and backs up to the server. In general, this does not work well because of the transient connection. It also has the effect of providing negative reinforcement on connectivity, by running each time the laptop is "in range of the mother ship", which has the effect of people keeping their machines unconnected while they are "in the office", to avoid being nailed to the floor for the (ever increasing, due to non-connectedness) duration of the backup operation. ...meaning that there is not a satisfying answer to the problem, unless you are willing to replace the file systems on the laptops with "trickle replication" file system implementations, and then dedicate space on a server. As far as I know, the software to do this is all part of university or corporate research projects at this time, and _none_ of it runs on Windows, for lack of source code for Windows. > >> Is there an Amanda PC/Windows client? Or an Amanda MacOS X > >> client? > > > > There is one in beta right now. IT's available from: > > > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/amanda-win32/ > > > > It doesn't seem to have been updated since last June. 8-(. > > > > You probably are not going to find it useful, due to the "open > > file backup" problem. The normal way to handle "open file backup" > > on windows is to install an IFSMgr hook to hook calls into the > > IFS manager. You can then use the existing open instance for the > > file in question in order to back it up. > > Sounds good. I don't suppose anyone knows if anyone is ever > planning on adding features like this to the Amanda PC client? Unlikely. Most Open Source software does not operate on the basis of a design or architecture known in advance -- though it may start that way, if it arises out of corporate or academic research. What happens instead is that people quit adding to the code once it works "well enough", as opposed to working "to spec.". It's also a lot of work, in that it requires you to build a shadow state machine for file operations, and have in depth knowledge of Windows internals in the IFSMgr area. Things like the O'Reilly IFSMgr book don't actually provide enough information, since they fail to document hiddent assumptions and some interfaces (e.g. there is an interface that can obtain the raw block offsets on a disk to use for swapping by Windows, through demand paging to direct device I/O, but that interface is not documented, nor is the fact that an FS must support obtaining Level 3 then Level 1 volume locks, in order to access the raw disk, since that information would help virus writers write viruses that ignored FS and boot block-based protections). > > This is usually not > > very satisfying for database files, since the transactional > > representation of atomicity and/or idempotence to the application > > are done at the database application level, and can't be guaranteed > > at the IFSMgr level (there is no nesting information pushed by the > > application to the IFSMgr, so you can wait for a 1->0 nesting level > > for transactions in progress to complete, before doing your backup). > > While these issues may be important to others, we do not > currently have any call for databases like this in our house. It is not this simple. Microsoft Access will inherently use database methods to store data on the disk. Likewise, and document type based on OLESS (Microsoft OLE Structured Storage) also uses database methods to store data within the container files. This includes, but is not limited to, intermediate modification and automated backup storage of the contents of Microsoft Word documents and Microsoft Excel spreadsheets. The software is not designed to permit snapshot-and-restore of file contents while it is in active use: it depends on the assumption that the system will be quiescent, and files will be closed. > > The most common method is to export the FS as a share, and then > > use Amanda with SAMBA (client) in order to back up the data; this > > has the same problems. See the online book at: > > > > http://www.backupcentral.com/amanda.html > > > > specifically: > > > > http://www.backupcentral.com/amanda-13.html > > There are not currently any Unix filesystems in our house being > exported via Samba, as there are currently not any Unix fileservers > in the house. I think you misunderstand. The SAMBA machine acts as a client of the Windows machine on which the files to be backed up are located. As an example, Fred has a laptop, and you have followed the suggested practice of making him put all files he wants to have backed up into the folder "C:\Fred\" on that laptop. This is then exported via the "File and Printer Sharing for Microsoft Networks" option. The UNIX system on which the backup software runs then, in the process of the backup, mounts this share as a local file system, backs up the local file system, and then unmounts the share. > When I do set up the fileservers, there almost certainly won't > ever be any databases running on the exported filesystems, so I would > be inclined to believe that these filesystems should be backed up > from the client side. This is an invalid assumption. Just because you are not running software which is sold by the vendor as database software does not mean that you do not have database files. As noted above, even "simple" Microsoft Word documents are, in fact, database files. > I'm not worried so much about the server backup issues, at least > not per se. I am more concerned about the client file/filesysystem > backup issues, and how I can get that data onto a server where I can > reliably back it up somewhere else. Moreover, I want to use freely > available software and reasonably inexpensive hardware, which is a > good part of the reason why FreeBSD would also be involved on the > server side. I think you will find that backup is like X windows, in that it will require an inversion of the terms "client" and "server". A "server" is something that provides a "service", in that universe. The Amanda beta client for WIN32, for example, exports a service that the Amanda backup server then exploits in order to backup the data on the Windows side of things. Short of using an alternate FS, and a product built to use special hooks in the FS (e.g. Veritas' Windows VxFS, Volume Manager, and backup products), you are going to have a hard row to hoe, with Windows. > >> What about the handling of tape swapping, archiving, and > >> other things normally done with stackers and libraries? > > > > You use stackers and libraries. 8-). > > IIRC, Amanda doesn't support stackers or libraries. Are there > any other tools that do? Amanda supports both, including the very large capsule-shaped transparent tape-robots you see in some movies (e.g. "Sneakers"). 8-). > > In most cases, you are talking about spending money for commercial > > software, since the professional database backup software is often > > a seperate product add-on. > > At the moment, we're not using any database software, so anything > specific to databases is not currently relevant, although I do want > to keep these things in mind as I try to design a comprehensive > backup solution. It will bite you anyway, since most "flat" data files for Microsoft Office products are in face OLESS-based non-flat-file databases; sorry. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 12:49:19 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27FD337B401 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:49:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F8143ED8 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:49:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rolnif@mac.com) Received: from asmtp02.mac.com (asmtp02-qfe3 [10.13.10.66]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h01KnHbr015828 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([66.92.1.188]) by asmtp02.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H81Z6400.HDT for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:49:16 -0800 Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:46:07 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Speaking of backups... From: John Martinez To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0D321CFA-1DCA-11D7-BD4A-0003937C0B34@mac.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have several machines of different OS types at home. Call me an OS nut. A FreeBSD box. An OpenBSD box. A Sun Ultra 30 running Solaris. A dual-boot WindowsXP/Linux box. A Solaris x86 box. And my main machine is a G4 Mac running Mac OS X. My OS X box has the majority of my important files. I currently backup by copying files from the other machines onto OS X and burning a DVD on the SuperDrive. I only do this from time to time since DVD-R's are still somewhat expensive. I'm contemplating buying SCSI tape drive (DLT of some sort on eBay) and attaching it to either the SPARC or FreeBSD box. I'd rather do tape backups because I can recycle tapes. I would like to use Amanda, and I'm sure it would work fine between the *BSD, Solaris and Linux machines. How do I address Mac OS X and maybe even Windows? I don't think Amanda has an OS X client and much less, I don't know how it would handle forked files. thanks, -john To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 12:58:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E8237B405 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:58:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from m20.unixathome.org (m20.unixathome.org [66.11.168.227]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E6943ED8 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:58:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: by m20.unixathome.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 684A97A6B; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:58:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m20.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278121E8E; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:58:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:58:37 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@m20.unixathome.org To: John Martinez Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Speaking of backups... In-Reply-To: <0D321CFA-1DCA-11D7-BD4A-0003937C0B34@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030101155700.H70110-100000@m20.unixathome.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, John Martinez wrote: > I would like to use Amanda, and I'm sure it would work fine between the > *BSD, Solaris and Linux machines. How do I address Mac OS X and maybe > even Windows? I don't think Amanda has an OS X client and much less, I > don't know how it would handle forked files. IIRC, for windows you export the filesystems and have your Amanda server on a unix box. Your server, or another client somewhere, mounts the exported file system and backs that up for you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 16:27: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB01E37B401 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:26:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1279543E4A for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:26:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with ESMTP id <20030102002657001003ncn6e>; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 00:26:57 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h020TM8S022787 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:29:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h020S2LP022772; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 16:28:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <20030101152046.D32360@papagena.rockefeller.edu> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 01 Jan 2003 16:28:01 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20030101152046.D32360@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Message-ID: Lines: 50 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > And it is in our time to name names. > > I would like to thank Gary Swearingem (that maybe an "n" and not an "m") > > for his persistence in refusing my attempts at apology. > > He alone, has reduced the FreeBSD community by one. > > I don't see why you're forming an opinion of the community by reading > -chat. It's quite unrepresentative, and the individual you named > isn't even a committer. You may as well form an opinion of the "linux > community" by reading slashdot at -1. Oh goody... Cliff makes a private matter public. Why? To shame me? (Of course, I feel sorry for being partially responsible if Cliff fulfills his claim, but I am comfortable in thinking that he deserves 99% of the blame.) Or does he mean to punish me by damaging my reputation among FreeBSD people by what people will wrongly assume in reading his brief non-explanation? (Unfortunately, I must now ask -chat readers who care to consider MY explanation, as if I can put this cat back in its bag. No doubt I'll wind up doing my own damage to my reputation in some minds, but I can't let this go by without comment.) He didn't form his opinion based on -chat; he just chose to take it public here. Most of our interactions started in -questions, with the most "interesting" stuff being kept off the lists. This current tantrum was triggered by my response to his four-word private message to which I privately replied (in essense) "No, I don't want to be friends; I don't like dealing with you most of the time, but I'll try to treat you like anybody else on the lists." I even praised him for wanting to be friends and said that there are plenty of others to befriend. But I didn't have to be clairvoyant to see an unhappy future in that course, and I think he should accept my kiss-off with more grace than he has. He had threatened before to quit and I tried to befriend him, talking about our common Dutch heritage and some other non-FreeBSD stuff, etc. Last New Year he claimed to have turned over a new leaf and I noticed the change in his postings for a while. Later we somehow got into talking a bit about politics and he just came out of the blue with some uncalled-for ugly anti-American rant to which I took great offense. I told him I that our friendship was over and have since ignored most of his posts and private messages. (Which might explain why I remember no apologies -- not that they'd change my opinion of Cliff. As "W" tried to say: fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. Sometimes I wander if he just likes to keep me wasting my time on such foolishness; if so, he's fooled me way too often.) Have a happy New Year and happy new year. -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 18: 2: 9 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF0DB37B401 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:02:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0023243EA9 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:02:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 12625 invoked by uid 50005); 2 Jan 2003 02:01:54 -0000 Received: from tms2@mail.ptd.net by smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.15 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4238. spamassassin: 2.43. Clear:. Processed in 0.772392 secs); 02 Jan 2003 02:01:54 -0000 Received: from du177.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.177]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 2 Jan 2003 02:01:54 -0000 Message-ID: <3E139D6F.1BBC4ED3@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 21:01:19 -0500 From: "T.M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Anderson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD controlled radio.. ? References: <3E11BFAB.7050302@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson wrote: > > Anyone know of a PCI/ISA card that you can slap in a FreeBSD box, and > change the station (frequecy) from within FreeBSD? It would be awesome > if it also received the NOAA weather stuff too.. WiNRADiO makes several models of internal and external computer-controlled radios. Their protocols are published, and Linux software exists. Prices range from about $500 to about $3000. The only other computer-controlled radio I know of is the Icom PCR1000, which is an external radio covering 100 kHz to 1.3GHz. The protocols for this radio are not published, and the only available software seems to be for Windows. I have no personal experience with any of these, though. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 18:24:33 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B1B37B401 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:24:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCB1143EC2 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 18:24:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41]) by ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h022OPiB026080; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:24:25 +1100 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: Eric Anderson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD controlled radio.. ? Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:24:24 +1100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <3E11BFAB.7050302@centtech.com> <3E139D6F.1BBC4ED3@mail.ptd.net> In-Reply-To: <3E139D6F.1BBC4ED3@mail.ptd.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200301021324.24981.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:01, T.M. Sommers wrote: > Eric Anderson wrote: > > Anyone know of a PCI/ISA card that you can slap in a FreeBSD box, and > > change the station (frequecy) from within FreeBSD? It would be aweso= me > > if it also received the NOAA weather stuff too.. > > WiNRADiO makes several models of internal and external > computer-controlled radios. Their protocols are published, and Linux > software exists. Prices range from about $500 to about $3000. I do not own a winradio but have seen programmers use them, they are quit= e=20 good... The models I have seen even come with source code demonstrating h= ow=20 to tune, scan, recieve (and transmit if your rich enough) and I have seen= =20 software which displays weather maps. However I do not know if the demo c= ode=20 also works in FreeBSD (i have only seen programmers use it in MS). Regards, Jacob Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 21:20:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9582837B401 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1036543EC5 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:20:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0014.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.14] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TxmY-0002NC-00; Wed, 01 Jan 2003 21:20:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3E13CBD4.7C21AC76@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 21:19:16 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Martinez Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Speaking of backups... References: <0D321CFA-1DCA-11D7-BD4A-0003937C0B34@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4dd7f4d153e620eef9349fe212bba7cfa350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Martinez wrote: > My OS X box has the majority of my important files. I currently backup > by copying files from the other machines onto OS X and burning a DVD on > the SuperDrive. I only do this from time to time since DVD-R's are > still somewhat expensive. I'm contemplating buying SCSI tape drive (DLT > of some sort on eBay) and attaching it to either the SPARC or FreeBSD > box. I'd rather do tape backups because I can recycle tapes. > > I would like to use Amanda, and I'm sure it would work fine between the > *BSD, Solaris and Linux machines. How do I address Mac OS X and maybe > even Windows? I don't think Amanda has an OS X client and much less, I > don't know how it would handle forked files. There is currently an Amanda client that works with UFS. It does not work with the new HFS, to back up resource forks, etc.. There appears to be an HFS dump/restore that would work with Amanda, according to the mailing lists where this question should have been asked instead (8-)). The main complaint is lack of knowledge of the FS layout, according to one posting, but IMO, given that the header files for the FS are distributed as source code, what people are really asking for is for someone to do the work for them. 8-|. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 22:11:39 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E8B37B401 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 22:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759D443EB2 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 22:11:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h026BC192518; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 22:11:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200301020611.h026BC192518@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 22:11:07 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Dave Hayes wrote: >> Terry Lambert writes: >> >> > Again, we are talking about predicting the behaviour of groups, >> >> > e.g.: any "large space of humanity". >> >> >> >> Which begs the question of "why?"... >> > >> > I thought that would be patently obvious: to permit us to design >> > minimally intrusive systems with the emergent properties we are >> > interested in obtaining. >> >> The proof is in the pudding, as they say (for some arbitrary >> value of 'they'). Go do this. If it works, use it. > > We do. You're in a very small minority; the rest of us are not > complaining. 8-). Who's us, and why are relative numbers important to the proof? >> > By understanding the probabalistic behaviour of the group, we can >> > design a system which will have the least overall conflict with the >> > desires of the group. >> >> Still an unfounded assertion, according to scientific worldview. > > That's an incorrect and unsupportable statement of opinion, > given that we have working models of the results of such planning > (as opposed to non-working models). Perhaps in some specific case where a small sample space is representative of the particular audience(s) you are working with, I'd buy this. Over the entire space of humanity? Hardly. >> > I'm more than happy to open it: it's very easy to predict, on >> > the basis of negative inference, based on the modelling of the >> > society in which the acts are expected to occur. The simple >> > definition is: any action against the normative force of the >> > society which you *can* predict will, predictably, be labeled >> > criminal by that society. >> >> The problem is, the group under observation changes as you apply >> 'predictive' methodolgies. > > That's not correct. The "observer effect" you are referring to > in a side-wise way here is derived from the Heisenberg uncertainty > principle's first statement of "observer effect", which is only > applicable at the quantum level (the position and momentum of an > electron can not be simultaneously known to an acuracy greater than > h-bar over 2). It also works with people. People's responses and actions change based on whether they know they are being observed or not. If you doubt this, consider the anonymous posting group, where no identites are revealed. It's historic that such a group brings out a different tone in people; you don't see the same tone when they know they are being watched. >> What you are suggesting will have the predictable and ultimate end >> of legislation which will punish citizens for not being "normal" >> enough or "predictable" enough. > > Yes. So what? I suppose you find the idea objectionable, but it's > well enough known and accepted that we've named it: "California". Um, lol. If you are calling California a land of normal people, you obviously don't live here. ;) >> It also means we lose most of our artists and free thinkers. > > That, also, does not necessarily follow, unless you are a strict > structuralist, and believe in genetic predestiny. Labels. Nothing but labels. >> I don't think you want that. > > That's irrelevent to the discussion, I think. But true regardless, I'd say. >> >> Grim. I don't buy this, of course, but it paints a grim picture. >> > >> > Human societies have always been, in the limit, willing to turn >> > to the use of force in order to achieve their ends. It is the >> > nature of humans to do this. >> >> This is exactly why humans, as a race, have not evolved past the level >> they are at. > > Spilt milk. If you feel strongly enough about it, then sell out > for a short period of time (play by the rules as they are, rather > than as you would prefer them to be), get rich, buy land, and > establish your own little "Helstrom's Hive". I don't suppose you'll ever understand why I consider this irrelevant and useless. >> > And your point in stating that is supposed to be what? >> >> There's two. Your definitions can't possibly be useful. You >> ultimately believe in an objective reality. > > I'm not a nihilist, if that's what you're getting at... Again the labels. The point was, you still have a belief there. You cannot verify objective reality, any methods you use are based in the same thing you are trying to verify. >> >> Therefore all argument with you along this line of reality is >> >> futile. It's like trying to argue me out of wanting to see True >> >> Free Speech everywhere...quite impossible but perhaps entertaining at >> >> times. >> > >> > Anytime someone uses "true" as an adjective, you know they are >> > redefining something... >> >> Well...duh. ;) > > I suppose you've met Richard Stallman and Joy Beech, then? I've met and admire the former, I've no clue on the latter. Your redirection aside, our arguments really are futile. Your a