From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 21 02:49:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A65537B401 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 02:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.uk.alink.co.za (mail.alink.co.za [213.253.1.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9230743FA3 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 02:49:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from george@alink.co.za) Received: from [217.158.80.249] (helo=D9NLZD0J) by mail.uk.alink.co.za with smtp (Exim 3.36 #5) id 197Xv2-0001k5-00 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:49:00 +0100 Message-ID: <003c01c307eb$211acf60$0100000a@D9NLZD0J> From: "George Barnett" To: Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:48:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 Subject: sandisk cruzer X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:49:03 -0000 Hi All, Since there are loads of technical people on this list, I figure I'll ask here, since I've had little success elsewhere.. I bought a Sandisk Cruzer (USB adapter for SD memory cards). I took it home and I plugged it in. FreeBSD found it and I was able to mount it. Here's the catch - it's mounting read-only. So I figured I'd boot into Windows (2k) and see if it behaved any differently, with no luck. I've found that once every 10 or 15 times I plug it in I'm able to mount it r/w.. I'm hesistant to force a r/w mount since i may lose data (what's causing the r/w mount to fail in the first place?).. Is anybody else having hassles or am I alone? Any input would be appreciated.. Cheers --george From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 21 03:47:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F209437B401 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 03:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4342F43F85 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 03:47:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 13AA4239A10; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 03:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 03:47:48 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Message-ID: <20030421104747.GB71533@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <3E9C2965.5080504@potentialtech.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20030415203820.01dd56a8@popserver.sfu.ca> <200304151557.28415.jeff@walters.name> <20030416014930.G57044@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WYTEVAkct0FjGQmd" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster X-Message-Flag: Ditch this virus-ridden Outlook crap and get a real mailer! X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:47:49 -0000 --WYTEVAkct0FjGQmd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2003-04-16 12:09 -0700, "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > William Palfreman writes: >=20 > > On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Jeff Walters wrote: > >=20 > > > Yeah, but you guys (assuming you're from Britain) spell it colour and= not > > > color. What gives? :) > >=20 > > Because that's how it's pronounced. English often has more distinctive > > vowel sounds than American English. We say it like col'er, you people > > say coll-or. Remember that for us, "Marry merry Mary" are three words > > that actually sound different :-) >=20 > So how do "marry" and "Mary" differ? Some Americans (with roots around > Ohio, maybe) say "Mary" "May'-ree" (and my name "Gay'-ree" :-o ) and many > say "marry" vs. "merry" (and "pin" vs. "pen") differently (though few > people normally hear the difference and I suspect that few even know how > they normally pronounce them). This is a bit late, but worthwhile nonetheless. Please do try to read it aloud, especially if you're not a native English (of any variety) speaker. http://zer0.org/tmp/english-pronunciation.txt Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm mailto:gsutter@zer0.org for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ be warm for the rest of his life. hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --WYTEVAkct0FjGQmd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQE+o8xTIBUx1YRd/t0RAi3EAJ44A4uMcLXqTkT68MiIDwI9IERDNgCcCFf0 E1gpeU3XTZKKbyFUglJCM68= =2KeK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WYTEVAkct0FjGQmd-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 21 15:54:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96FDC37B401 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from net.wau.nl (NET.WAU.NL [137.224.10.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83D543FBF for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:54:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from FST777@phreaker.net) Received: from asser079.athome239.wau.nl (asser079.athome239.wau.nl [137.224.239.79]) by net.WAU.NL (PMDF V5.2-32 #38746) with ESMTP id <0HDP004EJUAM2U@net.WAU.NL> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:54:22 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:54:45 +0107 (CEST) From: "Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <0HDP004EKUAM2U@net.WAU.NL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Spruce 0.6.5 for X11 w/smtpio 0.7.9 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Subject: Unix mascots? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: FST777@phreaker.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:54:25 -0000 I saw a picture today with three wonderfull creatures: Tux, the BSD deamon and... what? the third one was a black / white flexible triangular with a huge red nose... this is (from what I got out of the description) a mascot for an Unix-derival (and it looks like a Tux-derival, as Hexely looks like a beastie-derival). But I can't find anywhere wich Unix-distribution it belongs to or what his / her / its name is. Does any of you know the answers? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 21 17:59:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1571F37B401 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seattlefenix.net (seattlefenix.net [216.231.34.252]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 695B043F75 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:59:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roo@seattlefenix.net) Received: by seattlefenix.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 903A6B25C; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:52:52 -0700 From: Benjamin Krueger To: "Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek" Message-ID: <20030422005252.GU311@surreal.seattlefenix.net> References: <0HDP004EKUAM2U@net.WAU.NL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0HDP004EKUAM2U@net.WAU.NL> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix mascots? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Benjamin Krueger List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:59:08 -0000 * Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek (FST777@phreaker.net) [030421 15:48]: > > I saw a picture today with three wonderfull creatures: Tux, the BSD deamon > and... what? > > the third one was a black / white flexible triangular with a huge red > nose... this is (from what I got out of the description) a mascot for an > Unix-derival (and it looks like a Tux-derival, as Hexely looks like a > beastie-derival). But I can't find anywhere wich Unix-distribution it > belongs to or what his / her / its name is. > > Does any of you know the answers? That isn't a UNIX mascot. That's Duke, Sun's Java mascot. Depending on how good your flame retardant pants are, you could possibly call him a platform mascot. -- Benjamin Krueger From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 21 22:03:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D6CC37B401 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from net.wau.nl (NET.WAU.NL [137.224.10.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B54D43F75 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:03:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from FST777@phreaker.net) Received: from asser079.athome239.wau.nl (asser079.athome239.wau.nl [137.224.239.79]) by net.WAU.NL (PMDF V5.2-32 #38746) with ESMTP id <0HDQ00HA0BAV1F@net.WAU.NL> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 07:01:43 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 07:02:08 +0107 (CEST) From: "Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <0HDQ00HA1BAV1F@net.WAU.NL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Spruce 0.6.5 for X11 w/smtpio 0.7.9 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: Unix mascots? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: FST777@phreaker.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 05:03:57 -0000 allright, then what the heck does that thing think he's doing on my Unix-background along with the BSD deamon and Tux?!? :) I already kinda figured it had to do with Sun because of the triangular shape... so I thought about Solaris and Sun OS. Now I know why I wasn't succesfull :) Thanks for the answer :) Does anyone knows more (Unix-)OS-mascots except Beastie, Tux and Hexely? On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:52:52 -0700 > To: "Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek" > From: Benjamin Krueger > Reply-To: Benjamin Krueger > Subject: Re: Unix mascots? > > That isn't a UNIX mascot. That's Duke, Sun's Java mascot. Depending on > how > good your flame retardant pants are, you could possibly call him a > platform > mascot. > > -- > Benjamin Krueger From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 21 22:22:38 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3B8037B401 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from joloxbox.joshualokken.com (12-225-249-250.client.attbi.com [12.225.249.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02DB443FDD for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:22:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jolok@joshualokken.com) Received: from joloxbox.joshualokken.com (localhost.joshualokken.com [127.0.0.1])h3M5MWgu007054; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:22:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jolok@joshualokken.com) Received: (from jolok@localhost) by joloxbox.joshualokken.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h3M5MUeK007053; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:22:30 -0700 From: Joshua Lokken To: "Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek" Message-ID: <20030422052230.GA7000@joloxbox.joshualokken.com> References: <0HDQ00HA1BAV1F@net.WAU.NL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0HDQ00HA1BAV1F@net.WAU.NL> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: little to none X-OS: FreeBSD joloxbox.joshualokken.com 4.8-STABLE i386 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix mascots? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 05:22:39 -0000 * Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek (FST777@phreaker.net) wrote: ==> ==> allright, then what the heck does that thing think he's doing on my ==> Unix-background along with the BSD deamon and Tux?!? :) ==> I already kinda figured it had to do with Sun because of the triangular ==> shape... so I thought about Solaris and Sun OS. Now I know why I wasn't ==> succesfull :) ==> ==> Thanks for the answer :) ==> ==> Does anyone knows more (Unix-)OS-mascots except Beastie, Tux and Hexely? ==> Well, there's OpenBSD's Puffy. -- Joshua From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 21 23:43:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A8B337B401 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6544443F85 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:43:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B8F3FD90; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from speck.techno.pagans (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with SMTP id A1B34A913; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:41:11 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim To: Joshua Lokken Message-Id: <20030421234111.7d3302f9.dmp@pantherdragon.org> In-Reply-To: <20030422052230.GA7000@joloxbox.joshualokken.com> References: <0HDQ00HA1BAV1F@net.WAU.NL> <20030422052230.GA7000@joloxbox.joshualokken.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix mascots? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:43:08 -0000 Joshua Lokken wrote: >* Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek (FST777@phreaker.net) wrote: >==> >==> allright, then what the heck does that thing think he's doing on my >==> Unix-background along with the BSD deamon and Tux?!? :) >==> I already kinda figured it had to do with Sun because of the triangular >==> shape... so I thought about Solaris and Sun OS. Now I know why I wasn't >==> succesfull :) >==> >==> Thanks for the answer :) >==> >==> Does anyone knows more (Unix-)OS-mascots except Beastie, Tux and Hexely? >==> >Well, there's OpenBSD's Puffy. TrustedBSD's Beastie-In-Black Palm's Flip Plan 9's Glenda From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 06:29:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957B037B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E45743FBD for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:29:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 197xpa-000BSS-VK for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:29:06 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h3MDT6Pe064254 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:29:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h3MDT6Df064253 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:29:06 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:29:06 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *197xpa-000BSS-VK*41dF5LqQ0F2* Subject: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:29:13 -0000 I was just reading an interesting statement in Code Complete: "Although this particular statistic may be hard to put to work, a study by Gorla, Benander, and Benander found that the optimal number of blank lines in a program is about 8 to 16 percent. Above 16 percent, debug time increases dramatically (1990)." Doesn't this seem to contradict the idea that clear, well-formatted code with lots of blank lines is easier to read and understand? How could debugging be any different? As a side note, perhaps it is simply legacy code, but it seems that the older the source in the BSD tree, the denser it is. Probably to save punched cards, eh? ;-) NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 09:04:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA1737B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (scrooge.etek.chalmers.se [129.16.32.112]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49D3043FCB for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:04:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from scrooge.etek.chalmers.se (b@localhost [127.0.0.1]) h3MG36gh078145; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:03:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from b@etek.chalmers.se) Received: from localhost (b@localhost)h3MG36IG078142; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:03:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: scrooge.etek.chalmers.se: b owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:03:06 +0200 (CEST) From: Magnus B{ckstr|m To: Jonathon McKitrick In-Reply-To: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:04:25 -0000 On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > As a side note, perhaps it is simply legacy code, but it seems that the > older the source in the BSD tree, the denser it is. Probably to save > punched cards, eh? ;-) > Nope -- I expect if you surveyed it you'd find that most who wrote code at that time tried to keep the code compact to fit as much as comfortably possible onto the screen of a serial ascii terminal. "Dumb" terminals at that time were typically 80x24 characters and connected to the host computer through a serial line that made scrolling a real patience test. Perhaps programmers from that time are indeed better, from having had that particular incentive to "think, -then- type.", and "-remember- the damn code, you'll never get anything done if you constantly have to go someplace to look at how function so-and-so should be called". Magnus From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 09:22:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A00CD37B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5841743FDD for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:22:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030422162221.DHHP11246.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:22:21 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422171035.01c5e258@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:22:18 +0100 To: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:22:24 -0000 At 14:29 22/04/2003 +0100, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >I was just reading an interesting statement in Code Complete: > >"Although this particular statistic may be hard to put to work, a study by >Gorla, Benander, and Benander found that the optimal number of blank lines >in a program is about 8 to 16 percent. Above 16 percent, debug time >increases dramatically (1990)." > >Doesn't this seem to contradict the idea that clear, well-formatted code >with lots of blank lines is easier to read and understand? How could >debugging be any different? On older systems, the time necessary for scrolling around could make a significant contribution (remember, that study was in 1990 -- things may have changed since then). Another possibility, however, is that introducing too many blank lines breaks up the code in a manner which impairs readability, causing people to lose time re-reading a block of code several times. It would be interesting to see if a similar effect can be observed in heavily commented code; I have a feeling that one might find that writing comments into a distinct "documentation" file would have an advantage over the usual practice of writing comments in the middle of code. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 10:12:38 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F5B37B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9438E43F85 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:12:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.no-ip.com) Received: from be-well.ilk.org (lowellg.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.147.188.198]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52) with ESMTP id <2003042217123305200h41qbe>; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:12:35 +0000 Received: from be-well.ilk.org (lowellg.ne.client2.attbi.com [24.147.188.198] (may be forged)) by be-well.ilk.org (8.12.9/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h3MHCXsO065983; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:12:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.no-ip.com) Received: (from lowell@localhost) by be-well.ilk.org (8.12.9/8.12.6/Submit) id h3MHCWei065980; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:12:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: be-well.ilk.org: lowell set sender to freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org using -f Sender: lowell@be-well.no-ip.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Jonathon McKitrick References: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: 22 Apr 2003 13:12:32 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: <444r4qmp6n.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:12:38 -0000 Jonathon McKitrick writes: > I was just reading an interesting statement in Code Complete: Ah. You are trying to indoctrinate yourself into Microsoft's ideas of good practices. Thanks for warning us. > "Although this particular statistic may be hard to put to work, a study by > Gorla, Benander, and Benander found that the optimal number of blank lines > in a program is about 8 to 16 percent. Above 16 percent, debug time > increases dramatically (1990)." > > Doesn't this seem to contradict the idea that clear, well-formatted code > with lots of blank lines is easier to read and understand? How could > debugging be any different? No contradiction at all. It just shows that the definition of "lots of blank lines" is somewhere below 16%. Assuming we can trust the study (but it sounds about right to me). > As a side note, perhaps it is simply legacy code, but it seems that the > older the source in the BSD tree, the denser it is. Probably to save > punched cards, eh? ;-) More or less. That 'definition of "lots of blank lines"' is probably affected by the total amount of screen space available. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 10:25:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB65C37B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0037E43F93 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:25:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1981Wg-000No1-Du for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:25:50 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h3MHPoPe065182 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:25:50 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h3MHPne2065181 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:25:49 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:25:49 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030422172549.GA65023@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <444r4qmp6n.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <444r4qmp6n.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: -15.2 (---------------) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1981Wg-000No1-Du*JecQXEYszZU* Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:25:57 -0000 On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 01:12:32PM -0400, Lowell Gilbert wrote: : Jonathon McKitrick writes: : : > I was just reading an interesting statement in Code Complete: : : Ah. You are trying to indoctrinate yourself into Microsoft's ideas of : good practices. Thanks for warning us. Well, it was given to me by a software manager here at work. But I have been modeling my code largely after style(9). Frankly, I think my code is far more readable as a result. But in the process of surveying the source tree, as well as the rationale in this MSFT press book, I thought it raised some interesting questions. -----8<-------------- : > Doesn't this seem to contradict the idea that clear, well-formatted code : > with lots of blank lines is easier to read and understand? How could : > debugging be any different? : : No contradiction at all. It just shows that the definition of "lots : of blank lines" is somewhere below 16%. Assuming we can trust the : study (but it sounds about right to me). Sixteen percent would mean every 6 lines or so. That seems far too dense in my opinion. Even when you look at hardware drivers in the kernel, there are often only 1 or 2 lines together, separated from the rest by comments and whitespace. I just don't get how debug time would 'increase dramatically.' NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 12:07:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FAA337B405 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EECF43FE9 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:07:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0258.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.3] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19833S-00053A-00; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:03:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3EA591C1.AE00376A@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:02:25 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick References: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e8a0c788e9771a9736b7d32bed2359d4667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:07:42 -0000 Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > I was just reading an interesting statement in Code Complete: In general "Code Complete" should be taken with a grain of salt; it's very easy to get to "The Process *IS* The Product" by taking any coding standards and practice too far. ISO 9000 is a good example; effectively, all it means is: 1) Document your process 2) Document what you actually do 3) Audit #2 to ensure that it complies with #1 4) Take corrective action, as necessary But the *implementation* most people take away from it has all your programmers socumenting what they are working on, in 10 minute increments. > "Although this particular statistic may be hard to put to work, a study by > Gorla, Benander, and Benander found that the optimal number of blank lines > in a program is about 8 to 16 percent. Above 16 percent, debug time > increases dramatically (1990)." > > Doesn't this seem to contradict the idea that clear, well-formatted code > with lots of blank lines is easier to read and understand? Depends on your definition of "lots". 8-) 8-). > How could debugging be any different? Debugging, in most cases, is not a matter of making the code not give compiler warnings, of having prototypes in scope for everything and its cat, or making the code pass some arcane and arbitrary obstacle course thrown up by a program like "Flexelint"; it's about logic errors. It's pretty obvious that you can have perfectly beautiful looking code, which has logic errors in it. So debugging is about being able to "grok" the code: to be able to understand both its purpose, and how well it's self is aligned with that purpose. So offseting discrete logic blocks that are intended to achive specific goals makes it easier for the programmer to hold in their head both the idea of what the code is intended to do, and what their own logic dictates to them that the code actually does. > As a side note, perhaps it is simply legacy code, but it seems that the > older the source in the BSD tree, the denser it is. Probably to save > punched cards, eh? ;-) Actually, I attribute this to people applying arbitrary standards without being cognizant of their emergent consequences. I also attribute it to older programmers being able to hold more in their head at one time than younger programmers... try coding on a single 80x24 screen some time: you have to hold a lot of lines of code in your head, even if all you are dealing with is a single file. Now consider that tcp_input was originally written on an 80x24 screen. 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 12:15:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 848F537B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B5E43FAF for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:15:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0258.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.3] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1983F1-0006m6-00; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:15:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3EA5948D.EDB810B2@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:14:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Colin Percival References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422171035.01c5e258@popserver.sfu.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e8a0c788e9771a97856588f62fa12e8993caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Jonathon McKitrick cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:15:49 -0000 Colin Percival wrote: > It would be interesting to see if a similar effect can be observed > in heavily commented code; I have a feeling that one might find that > writing comments into a distinct "documentation" file would have an > advantage over the usual practice of writing comments in the middle of code. I think that there would not be a similar effect, unless the comments were sprinkled throughout the code like pixie dust. 8-). If they were in discrete blocks, that would be something else (see, for example, the UFS header files, or vfs_subr.c, where it talks about soft updates and the syncer). If you ever find and Open Source that qualifies as "heavily commented", let us know, and we can go take a look. 8-) 8-) 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 13:01:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 274C737B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (mta07-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.47]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A1943FDF for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:01:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030422200103.CAFW25105.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:01:03 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422205617.0387b378@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 21:01:01 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , Colin Percival From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <3EA5948D.EDB810B2@mindspring.com> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422171035.01c5e258@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: Jonathon McKitrick cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:01:07 -0000 At 12:14 22/04/2003 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >I think that there would not be a similar effect, unless the >comments were sprinkled throughout the code like pixie dust. >8-). [snip] >If you ever find and Open Source that qualifies as "heavily >commented", let us know, and we can go take a look. Well, not Open Source, but I have seen quite a few undergraduate programming assignments which have "pixie dust" comments. Some people take their instructors' advice to "comment everything you write" a bit too seriously, I think. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 13:31:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8750637B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E82B943FCB for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:31:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0258.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.3] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1984MH-00048C-00; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:27:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3EA5A53F.3016395C@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:25:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Colin Percival References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422171035.01c5e258@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030422205617.0387b378@popserver.sfu.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e9540a5a9b9950a70cad90bbc45d0672667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Jonathon McKitrick cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:31:15 -0000 Colin Percival wrote: > At 12:14 22/04/2003 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > >I think that there would not be a similar effect, unless the > >comments were sprinkled throughout the code like pixie dust. > >8-). [snip] > >If you ever find and Open Source that qualifies as "heavily > >commented", let us know, and we can go take a look. > > Well, not Open Source, but I have seen quite a few undergraduate > programming assignments which have "pixie dust" comments. Some people take > their instructors' advice to "comment everything you write" a bit too > seriously, I think. It could also be a matter of "available tools"; for example, people with comment-folding editors will be much more likely to comment the bejesus out of things, and make them unreadable to people without the same tools. Or people with Emacs will make code unreadable to everyone else... 8-) 8-) }B^). People with "vi" (and people who know how to use "grep") tend to declare functions: int foo(void) Rather than: int foo(void) Because they can search for declarations of a single function in a large amount of source code by anchoring the search to the start of the line... e.g.: cd /usr/src/sys find . -type f | xargs grep \^pmap_enter ...Of course, that's just because they haven't learned about "tags" files yet, I think... 8-) 8-O }B^). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 13:47:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F7F37B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FBDA43FBF for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:47:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crist.clark@attbi.com) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (12-234-159-107.client.attbi.com[12.234.159.107]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52) with ESMTP id <2003042220475105200h5089e>; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:47:51 +0000 Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (localhost. [127.0.0.1]) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h3MKlpki060204; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:47:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crist.clark@attbi.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h3MKlkX1060203; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:47:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: blossom.cjclark.org: cjc set sender to crist.clark@attbi.com using -f Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:47:46 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Darren Pilgrim Message-ID: <20030422204746.GB59563@blossom.cjclark.org> References: <0HDQ00HA1BAV1F@net.WAU.NL> <20030422052230.GA7000@joloxbox.joshualokken.com> <20030421234111.7d3302f9.dmp@pantherdragon.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030421234111.7d3302f9.dmp@pantherdragon.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ cc: Joshua Lokken cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix mascots? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Crist J. Clark" List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:47:54 -0000 On Mon, Apr 21, 2003 at 11:41:11PM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Joshua Lokken wrote: > > >* Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek (FST777@phreaker.net) wrote: > >==> > >==> allright, then what the heck does that thing think he's doing on my > >==> Unix-background along with the BSD deamon and Tux?!? :) > >==> I already kinda figured it had to do with Sun because of the triangular > >==> shape... so I thought about Solaris and Sun OS. Now I know why I wasn't > >==> succesfull :) > >==> > >==> Thanks for the answer :) > >==> > >==> Does anyone knows more (Unix-)OS-mascots except Beastie, Tux and Hexely? > >==> > >Well, there's OpenBSD's Puffy. > > TrustedBSD's Beastie-In-Black > Palm's Flip > Plan 9's Glenda Does OS X or Darwin have one? I have some old Darwin CDROMs that just have a Beastie on 'em. -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 13:49:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A261037B401; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A92B243F3F; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:49:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D611FD90; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from speck.techno.pagans (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with SMTP id BA227A913; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:49:43 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim To: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <20030422134943.001f3f5e.dmp@pantherdragon.org> In-Reply-To: <20030422204746.GB59563@blossom.cjclark.org> References: <0HDQ00HA1BAV1F@net.WAU.NL> <20030422052230.GA7000@joloxbox.joshualokken.com> <20030421234111.7d3302f9.dmp@pantherdragon.org> <20030422204746.GB59563@blossom.cjclark.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: joshua@joshualokken.com cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: crist.clark@attbi.com Subject: Re: Unix mascots? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:49:55 -0000 "Crist J. Clark" wrote: >On Mon, Apr 21, 2003 at 11:41:11PM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >> Joshua Lokken wrote: >> >> >* Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek (FST777@phreaker.net) wrote: >> >==> >> >==> allright, then what the heck does that thing think he's doing on my >> >==> Unix-background along with the BSD deamon and Tux?!? :) >> >==> I already kinda figured it had to do with Sun because of the triangular >> >==> shape... so I thought about Solaris and Sun OS. Now I know why I wasn't >> >==> succesfull :) >> >==> >> >==> Thanks for the answer :) >> >==> >> >==> Does anyone knows more (Unix-)OS-mascots except Beastie, Tux and Hexely? >> >==> >> >Well, there's OpenBSD's Puffy. >> >> TrustedBSD's Beastie-In-Black >> Palm's Flip >> Plan 9's Glenda > >Does OS X or Darwin have one? I have some old Darwin CDROMs that just >have a Beastie on 'em. Hexeley. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 15:45:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED43037B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitblocks.com (bitblocks.com [209.204.185.216]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521B343FDF for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:45:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bitblocks.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h3MMhvf6077123; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:43:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Message-Id: <200304222243.h3MMhvf6077123@bitblocks.com> To: Terry Lambert In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:14:21 PDT." <3EA5948D.EDB810B2@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:43:57 -0700 From: Bakul Shah cc: Jonathon McKitrick cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:45:18 -0000 > If you ever find and Open Source that qualifies as "heavily > commented", let us know, and we can go take a look. TeX. lcc. Many assembly language programs written before 1980? If you consider the ratio of comment lines to code lines, any APL program with comments would qualify :-) Getting back to blank lines, their ratio to code lines is a very dubious metric of code quality. It is like evaluating prose quality by measuring sentence length or word frequency or number of big words used or something. Any correlation is bound to be a secondary effect at best. It is quite amazing that people get grants to measure such stupid things. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 15:46:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0520D37B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BAD043F3F for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h3MMkkF12989; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:46:46 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:46:46 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Darren Pilgrim Message-ID: <20030422184646.A12985@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Darren Pilgrim , "Crist J. Clark" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030422134943.001f3f5e.dmp@pantherdragon.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030422134943.001f3f5e.dmp@pantherdragon.org> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: "Crist J. Clark" Subject: Re: Unix mascots? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:46:52 -0000 Darren Pilgrim wrote: > >Does OS X or Darwin have one? I have some old Darwin CDROMs that just > >have a Beastie on 'em. > > Hexeley. You misspelled "Hexley" which is itself a misspelling of "Huxley" (as in T. H. Huxley, of debate-with-Bishop-Wilberforce fame). A rather funny explanation here: http://www.hexley.com/history.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 16:10:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA40E37B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tartarus.telenet-ops.be (tartarus.telenet-ops.be [195.130.132.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2B143FBF for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:10:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from philip@paeps.cx) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by tartarus.telenet-ops.be (Postfix) with SMTP id EC137DB9A8; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 01:10:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fortuna.home.paeps.cx (D5768746.kabel.telenet.be [213.118.135.70]) by tartarus.telenet-ops.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id A91B7DB99F; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 01:10:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from juno.home.paeps.cx (juno.home.paeps.cx [2001:ab8:2007:0:240:f4ff:fe31:3090]) by fortuna.home.paeps.cx (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4462098; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 01:10:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: by juno.home.paeps.cx (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 401D620CC; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 01:10:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 01:10:27 +0200 From: Philip Paeps To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030422231027.GV666@juno.home.paeps.cx> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Jonathon McKitrick References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422171035.01c5e258@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030422205617.0387b378@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422205617.0387b378@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Date-in-Rome: ante diem IX Kalendas Maias MMDCCLVI ab Urbe Condida X-PGP-Fingerprint: FA74 3C27 91A6 79D5 F6D3 FC53 BF4B D0E6 049D B879 X-Message-Flag: Get a proper mailclient! Mutt: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: Jonathon McKitrick Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 23:10:31 -0000 On 2003-04-22 21:01:01 (+0100), Colin Percival wrote: > At 12:14 22/04/2003 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > If you ever find and Open Source that qualifies as "heavily commented", > > let us know, and we can go take a look. > > Well, not Open Source, but I have seen quite a few undergraduate programming > assignments which have "pixie dust" comments. Some people take their > instructors' advice to "comment everything you write" a bit too seriously, I > think. Instructors often neglect to mention that if it can be said in code, there's really no point in saying it again in a comment :-) I occasionally even see things like this: /* this prints a line of text */ fprintf(stdout, "a line of text\n"); Completely pointless. The same people who will write that, however, will also indulge in writing long blocks of extremely creative and 'dense' code, without a comment anywhere in sight. *sigh* Someone should write a book about how to comment code. Or a language which ignores code and only compiles comments. Like 'whitespace' which ignores everything other than whitespace :-) - Philip -- Philip Paeps Please don't CC me, I am philip@paeps.cx subscribed to the list. You're ugly and your mother dresses you funny. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 16:58:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E13337B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9737E43FB1 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:58:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1987ez-000CpE-6K for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:58:49 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h3MNwiPe066838 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:58:44 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h3MNwiba066837 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:58:44 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:58:44 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030422235843.GA66803@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422171035.01c5e258@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030422205617.0387b378@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030422231027.GV666@juno.home.paeps.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030422231027.GV666@juno.home.paeps.cx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: -14.4 (--------------) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1987ez-000CpE-6K*TNZzn/RVl1w* Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 23:58:57 -0000 : Someone should write a book about how to comment code. Or a language which Isn't there a tagline: 'Ignore all comments. Debug only CODE.' ?? NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 17:33:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A188637B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E79D543FCB for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1988C0-000CCP-8d; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 01:32:56 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h3N0WtPe066995; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 01:32:55 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h3N0WtOK066994; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 01:32:55 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 01:32:54 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Colin Percival Message-ID: <20030423003254.GB66803@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <5.0.2.1.1.20030422171035.01c5e258@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422171035.01c5e258@popserver.sfu.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: -15.2 (---------------) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1988C0-000CCP-8d*2G4YkDrUz62* cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:33:18 -0000 On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 05:22:18PM +0100, Colin Percival wrote: : in heavily commented code; I have a feeling that one might find that : writing comments into a distinct "documentation" file would have an : advantage over the usual practice of writing comments in the middle of code. Isn't there something called JavaDoc that follows this idea? jcm -- Consulting: If you aren't part of the solution, there is a lot of money to be made in prolonging the problem. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 17:39:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A4237B401; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-67-115-75-1.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.115.75.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1ED143FBF; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:39:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C13666D6A; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 37FAF10CE; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:39:31 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <20030423003931.GB66188@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20030422031429.GA82023@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EA4C0D3.8F7CF9EE@mindspring.com> <20030423041754.N18663@gamplex.bde.org> <3EA5A2EA.F334CED8@mindspring.com> <20030422203234.GE2843@trudy.torrini.home> <3EA5ABBC.5BB3179A@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="U+BazGySraz5kW0T" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EA5ABBC.5BB3179A@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG cc: Riccardo Torrini Subject: Re: Is there a header conflict? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:39:34 -0000 --U+BazGySraz5kW0T Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 01:53:16PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Then I point out that if everything were registed as a package, > you could just deinstall the old package, and install the new > one, and be done with it. 8-). >=20 > This is promptly ignored in favor if argueing about whether > "make installworld" or "make updateincludes" or some other > syntactic sugar should be added to the install process, so > that "install means delete". Then people complain about this > being a 31st step in a process that already takes 30 steps. No, it's promptly ignored because it's just useless words that require an implementation before it can be of any use to anyone. I've been offering for several years now to mentor you through the process of developing a prototype that is useful to FreeBSD and to work with you on getting it accepted into FreeBSD, but as usual you're more interested in talking about how cool it would be to have, than in following through with code. The offer remains open... Kris --U+BazGySraz5kW0T Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+peDCWry0BWjoQKURAjt4AJ4xuA98FL2vOLkdCg2Rqld+m+ENQwCdE480 6BkCMp01Ik4GR8oUuspGu8E= =WdGK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --U+BazGySraz5kW0T-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 22:33:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD4737B401; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0631F43F93; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:33:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0352.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.97] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 198Ct1-0002Zq-00; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:33:40 -0700 Message-ID: <3EA62568.BE077889@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:32:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <20030422031429.GA82023@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <20030423041754.N18663@gamplex.bde.org> <20030422203234.GE2843@trudy.torrini.home> <20030423003931.GB66188@rot13.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4da3d45f2a53477a44c461bdb1156359f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG cc: Riccardo Torrini cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a header conflict? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 05:33:44 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 01:53:16PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > No, it's promptly ignored because it's just useless words that require > an implementation before it can be of any use to anyone. > > I've been offering for several years now to mentor you through the > process of developing a prototype that is useful to FreeBSD and to > work with you on getting it accepted into FreeBSD, but as usual you're > more interested in talking about how cool it would be to have, than in > following through with code. The code is trivial. > The offer remains open... I have an implementation. Offer to let me sell it using the name "FreeBSD" without it going back to the FreeBSD source code for a year, and then maybe we can make a deal. My problem with doing productization work (and Brett Glass' problem, and a lot of other people's problem) is, and remains, use of the trademark without an identical-to-disc-1-disc-and-its-sucky-installer in the final distribution. I'd even be willing to accept a license like the original soft updates license, where people other than me are not allowed to distribute binaries for a year (give me a 1 year exclusive on the ISO's I create). FWIW: SCO released their Xenix packaging utilities *years* ago; if FreeBSD were really interested in the technology, rather than some schmuck taking over all the work with none of the money, then they'd just take that code and use it directly. I notice Jordan bowed out of this particular hole... smart guy, Jordan. -- Terry "Not A Schmuck" Lambert From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 22:53:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB76137B401 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C41C43FA3 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:53:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0352.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.97] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 198DBk-0004Lq-00; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:53:01 -0700 Message-ID: <3EA629F1.E69D4EFF@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:51:45 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway , Riccardo Torrini , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20030422031429.GA82023@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <20030423041754.N18663@gamplex.bde.org> <20030422203234.GE2843@trudy.torrini.home> <3EA62568.BE077889@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a447b640f5dcc2ada68bf9ba78395c896593caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Subject: Re: Is there a header conflict? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 05:53:11 -0000 [ ... moved totally to -chat ... ] Terry Lambert wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: > > I've been offering for several years now to mentor you through the > > process of developing a prototype that is useful to FreeBSD and to > > work with you on getting it accepted into FreeBSD, but as usual you're > > more interested in talking about how cool it would be to have, than in > > following through with code. > > The code is trivial. Let me clarify this, since some people have asked me about my use of the word "trivial". I use it in the sense of mathematicians, which is to say: "A brain-dead iguana could do the work, though it might take a while for it to complete it". ...in other words, "grunt work". It takes no great creativity; the major obstacle to implementation is, in fact the "getting it accepted into FreeBSD" part; forgive me if my volunteerism doesn't extend to playing politics to get the code in question "accepted" by people who shouldn't be standing in the way of its adoption in the first place. A coworker at Novell coined a term called "AI"; it didn't stand for what you think it stands for normally, instead it stood for the term "Artificial Importance", which applies to people who put themselves between a goal and the people attempting to accomplish it, in order to make themselves important by becoming bottlenecks. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 22 23:09:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D0837B401; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 23:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69EB243FA3; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 23:09:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from emerger.yogotech.com (emerger.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17411; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:09:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by emerger.yogotech.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) id h3N69bbX066681; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:09:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16038.11804.7879.671619@emerger.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:09:32 -0600 To: Terry Lambert In-Reply-To: <3EA62568.BE077889@mindspring.com> References: <20030422031429.GA82023@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <20030423041754.N18663@gamplex.bde.org> <20030422203234.GE2843@trudy.torrini.home> <20030423003931.GB66188@rot13.obsecurity.org> <3EA62568.BE077889@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Is there a header conflict? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nate Williams List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 06:09:43 -0000 > > No, it's promptly ignored because it's just useless words that require > > an implementation before it can be of any use to anyone. > > > > I've been offering for several years now to mentor you through the > > process of developing a prototype that is useful to FreeBSD and to > > work with you on getting it accepted into FreeBSD, but as usual you're > > more interested in talking about how cool it would be to have, than in > > following through with code. > > The code is trivial. > > > The offer remains open... > > I have an implementation. Offer to let me sell it using the name > "FreeBSD" without it going back to the FreeBSD source code for a > year, and then maybe we can make a deal. Hmm, this seems *VERY* obnoxious on your part. How many $$ have you made over the years using donated FreeBSD code? Compare that to the amount of code you have contributed, and one could argue that what you have gained from FreeBSD *FAR* outweighs your individual contributions. Now, you've got an existing piece of work that you're un-willing to donate unless you can make a $$ out of it (which is within your rights), but then you have the *GALL* to complain about no-one else doing it. That's cheap Terry, CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP!!!! I'm going to remember this in future dealings with you.... Nate From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 00:17:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA00837B423; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-67-115-75-1.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.115.75.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9913443FDF; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4699E66CFA; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1EEEE6E1; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:17:16 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030423071715.GB67622@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20030422031429.GA82023@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EA4C0D3.8F7CF9EE@mindspring.com> <20030423041754.N18663@gamplex.bde.org> <3EA5A2EA.F334CED8@mindspring.com> <20030422203234.GE2843@trudy.torrini.home> <3EA5ABBC.5BB3179A@mindspring.com> <20030423003931.GB66188@rot13.obsecurity.org> <3EA62568.BE077889@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EA62568.BE077889@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG cc: Riccardo Torrini cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Mercenary coding (Re: Is there a header conflict?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 07:17:18 -0000 --zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 10:32:24PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 01:53:16PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > No, it's promptly ignored because it's just useless words that require > > an implementation before it can be of any use to anyone. > >=20 > > I've been offering for several years now to mentor you through the > > process of developing a prototype that is useful to FreeBSD and to > > work with you on getting it accepted into FreeBSD, but as usual you're > > more interested in talking about how cool it would be to have, than in > > following through with code. >=20 > The code is trivial. >=20 > > The offer remains open... >=20 > I have an implementation. Offer to let me sell it using the name > "FreeBSD" without it going back to the FreeBSD source code for a > year, and then maybe we can make a deal. My problem with doing > productization work (and Brett Glass' problem, and a lot of other > people's problem) is, and remains, use of the trademark without > an identical-to-disc-1-disc-and-its-sucky-installer in the final > distribution. I'd even be willing to accept a license like the > original soft updates license, where people other than me are not > allowed to distribute binaries for a year (give me a 1 year exclusive > on the ISO's I create). Sorry, that's not part of the deal (and you're trying to change the subject by regurgitating another tired old debate that was resolved years ago, and misrepresenting the outcome while you're at it). Even if it was up to me (it's not), I'm not going to promise my time and effort in order to put money in your pocket, nor will I promise to get your possibly half-assed code into FreeBSD, sight unseen. If you're only going to contribute "trivial" code to FreeBSD in exchange for money, then you can sod off, because as far as I'm concerned you have nothing of value to offer this community. > FWIW: SCO released their Xenix packaging utilities *years* ago; > if FreeBSD were really interested in the technology, rather than > some schmuck taking over all the work with none of the money, > then they'd just take that code and use it directly. We already have packaging tools that are perfectly adequate for the use you proposed. Stop trying to change the subject. Either go away and work on TerryBSD, contribute to the FreeBSD community, or continue to infest the mailing lists spouting irrelevancies. Please let me know which you choose so I can add you to my killfile if necessary: by now the amount of faith I have that you will ever do something I might consider worthwhile is epsilon. Kris --zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+pj37Wry0BWjoQKURApxWAKCWaj9JgX+M9emNPqr4bz+ZghMgVQCgopny cFNhwiTjhgpN74+0iPssigA= =ZKwg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 06:49:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1F8A37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 06:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C338243F85 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 06:49:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 198Kcx-000JKM-9c; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:49:35 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h3NDnYPe070572; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:49:34 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h3NDnYQp070571; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:49:34 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:49:34 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030423134933.GC70395@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3EA591C1.AE00376A@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EA591C1.AE00376A@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: -15.2 (---------------) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *198Kcx-000JKM-9c*NkRnjUFC/iI* cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:49:44 -0000 On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 12:02:25PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: : So offseting discrete logic blocks that are intended to achive : specific goals makes it easier for the programmer to hold in : their head both the idea of what the code is intended to do, and : what their own logic dictates to them that the code actually : does. There is obviously a subtle difference here, but I don't quite get it... jcm -- Consulting: If you aren't part of the solution, there is a lot of money to be made in prolonging the problem. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 08:52:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A446C37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 08:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20B343FA3 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 08:52:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with ESMTP id <2003042315520700100e3gs3e>; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:52:07 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h3NFqSsi012622; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 08:52:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h3N3RRnP003486; Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:27:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Colin Percival References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422171035.01c5e258@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030422205617.0387b378@popserver.sfu.ca> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 22 Apr 2003 20:27:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422205617.0387b378@popserver.sfu.ca> Message-ID: Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Jonathon McKitrick cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 15:52:09 -0000 Colin Percival writes: > Well, not Open Source, but I have seen quite a few undergraduate > programming assignments which have "pixie dust" comments. Some people > take their instructors' advice to "comment everything you write" a bit > too seriously, I think. I worked on a project in FORTRAN and Ada which required peer review of your comments before you wrote your code. (Considered to be less costly than doing it in one of the true PDLs (Programming Design Languages) available (some with their own compilers).) After adding the code, you were supposed to be able to filter out the code and still have meaningful comments. It evolved, to a large degree, into a "comment every line" rule, partly for esthetic reasons and partly just to avoid having to worry about whether you'd be criticized for omitting too many. I gotta admit that it tended to encourage the addition of meaningful comments amongst the useless ones, and the comments were nice to have during testing, debug, and upgrade. I think the whole scheme was a response to a DOD requirement for using a PDL to specify the detailed design -- a "product" for one of the big steps of the waterfall software development process. I think the was something like one line of code per hour. Sounds grotesque, but it seemed to work; we turned out a HUGE Unix-based software suite more-or- less on time, with few bugs, and had a happy customer. Of course, I'm sure it was a bit more expensive than most other software projects. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 09:31:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E44E37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4497C43FA3 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:31:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with ESMTP id <2003042316313900100e3h3se>; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:31:39 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h3NGWBsg013114 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:32:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h3NGW6T9013111; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:32:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20030422031429.GA82023@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EA4C0D3.8F7CF9EE@mindspring.com> <20030423041754.N18663@gamplex.bde.org> <3EA5A2EA.F334CED8@mindspring.com> <20030422203234.GE2843@trudy.torrini.home> <3EA5ABBC.5BB3179A@mindspring.com> <20030423003931.GB66188@rot13.obsecurity.org> <3EA62568.BE077889@mindspring.com> <20030423071715.GB67622@rot13.obsecurity.org> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 23 Apr 2003 09:32:06 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20030423071715.GB67622@rot13.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: Lines: 6 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Mercenary coding (Re: Is there a header conflict?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:31:41 -0000 So who owns the FreeBSD trademark and where are the "Permitted Uses" documented, as published by other trademark owners? I find nothing about the trademark at www.freebsd.org and even the copyright is claimed by a corporation (FreeBSD, Inc.) which shows little other evidence of a legal existance, like some contact info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 09:36:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B9637B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1B543F93 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:36:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 14A07C5C; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13868C45; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:36:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Gary W. Swearingen" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030423093425.W46401-100000@moo.sysabend.org> X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Jonathon McKitrick cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:36:39 -0000 On 22 Apr 2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > I think the whole scheme was a response to a DOD requirement for using a > PDL to specify the detailed design -- a "product" for one of the big > steps of the waterfall software development process. I think the was > something like one line of code per hour. Sounds grotesque, but it > seemed to work; we turned out a HUGE Unix-based software suite more-or- > less on time, with few bugs, and had a happy customer. Of course, I'm > sure it was a bit more expensive than most other software projects. So the secret to building software that doesn't suck is designing it and then building it to spec with the necessary funding and/or time. Who'd'a thunk it? Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 09:53:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4A037B404 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BBCB43F93 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:53:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0119.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.119] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 198NRW-0000zI-00; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:49:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3EA6C3DF.911ADE00@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:48:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick References: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3EA591C1.AE00376A@mindspring.com> <20030423134933.GC70395@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a49c698df1c959381080947e401037a292350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:53:47 -0000 Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 12:02:25PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > : So offseting discrete logic blocks that are intended to achive > : specific goals makes it easier for the programmer to hold in > : their head both the idea of what the code is intended to do, and > : what their own logic dictates to them that the code actually > : does. > > There is obviously a subtle difference here, but I don't quite get it... What code does, and what people think it does is often different, -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 10:08:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3483237B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 10:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eos.telenet-ops.be (eos.telenet-ops.be [195.130.132.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA7A743FD7 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 10:08:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from philip@paeps.cx) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eos.telenet-ops.be (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D8CF20071 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:08:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fortuna.home.paeps.cx (D5768746.kabel.telenet.be [213.118.135.70]) by eos.telenet-ops.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5721F1FF2B for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:08:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from juno.home.paeps.cx (juno.home.paeps.cx [2001:ab8:2007:0:240:f4ff:fe31:3090]) by fortuna.home.paeps.cx (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD7520AA for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:08:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: by juno.home.paeps.cx (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1404920CC; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:08:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:08:53 +0200 From: Philip Paeps To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <20030423170853.GF666@juno.home.paeps.cx> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20030422031429.GA82023@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EA4C0D3.8F7CF9EE@mindspring.com> <20030423041754.N18663@gamplex.bde.org> <3EA5A2EA.F334CED8@mindspring.com> <20030422203234.GE2843@trudy.torrini.home> <3EA5ABBC.5BB3179A@mindspring.com> <20030423003931.GB66188@rot13.obsecurity.org> <3EA62568.BE077889@mindspring.com> <20030423071715.GB67622@rot13.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Date-in-Rome: ante diem IX Kalendas Maias MMDCCLVI ab Urbe Condida X-PGP-Fingerprint: FA74 3C27 91A6 79D5 F6D3 FC53 BF4B D0E6 049D B879 X-Message-Flag: Get a proper mailclient! Mutt: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: Mercenary coding (Re: Is there a header conflict?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:08:59 -0000 On 2003-04-23 09:32:06 (-0700), Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > So who owns the FreeBSD trademark and where are the "Permitted Uses" > documented, as published by other trademark owners? > > I find nothing about the trademark at www.freebsd.org and even the > copyright is claimed by a corporation (FreeBSD, Inc.) which shows > little other evidence of a legal existance, like some contact info. I seem to recall that 'FreeBSD Inc' is now known as the FreeBSD Foundation which lives at . Other than that, I'm not too clear on all the legal mumbling. I leave that to the people who enjoy mumbling :-) - Philip > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Philip Paeps Please don't CC me, I am philip@paeps.cx subscribed to the list. Progress is made on alternate Fridays. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 10:34:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A48F37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 10:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E667C43FCB for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 10:34:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 198O8p-00068z-Ju; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:34:43 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h3NHYhPe071842; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:34:43 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h3NHYgEZ071841; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:34:42 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:34:42 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Message-ID: <20030423173442.GD70395@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422171035.01c5e258@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030422205617.0387b378@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: -15.2 (---------------) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *198O8p-00068z-Ju*.Q59c2l0nro* cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:34:53 -0000 On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 08:27:27PM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: : meaningful comments. It evolved, to a large degree, into a "comment : every line" rule, partly for esthetic reasons and partly just to avoid : having to worry about whether you'd be criticized for omitting too many. In our current project, one of the managers (we have a small software dept) has suggested a few macros to use as function headers. They are absolutely god-awful. Huge, useless, unmaintainable, space hogs. I refuse to use them. Picture a chunk of about 12 comment lines, complete with '=' banners at top and bottom, along with (rarely used) fields for inputs, outputs, summary, author, date, and so on. I have no problem providing the info for my methods, but I hate having to play with tab keys, '=' signs, and word wrapping in the process. Inevitably, the function outgrows the header, and the header becomes inaccurate. jonathon From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 13:31:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E44137B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D74C43FCB for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:31:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id D6B665308; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:31:36 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Per-Arne Holtmon =?iso-8859-1?q?Ak=F8?=" From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:31:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030415193628.GI80286@online.no> ("Per-Arne Holtmon =?iso-8859-1?q?Ak=F8"'s?= message of "Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:36:28 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) Emacs/21.2 References: <20030415154032.BDA934AB1B@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <20030415193628.GI80286@online.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cc: Luciano Evaristo Guerche cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:31:39 -0000 "Per-Arne Holtmon Ak=F8" writes: > Daemon is actually an acronym for `Disk And Execution MONitor'. See > http://catb.org/esr/jargon/html/entry/daemon.html for more information. Guess why it says "later rationalized as..." DES --=20 Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 13:48:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46AA37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8983743F3F for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 13:48:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 457BA5308; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:48:31 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: =?iso-8859-1?q?S=EAr=EAciya_Kurdistan=EE?= From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:48:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030416151612.GA38364@kurdistan.ath.cx> =?iso-8859-1?q?(S=EAr=EAciya_Kurdistan=EE's?= message of "Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:16:12 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) Emacs/21.2 References: <3E9C6992.90403@potentialtech.com> <20030415235701.GA16666@kurdistan.ath.cx> <20030416114615.J41924@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030416115556.GA23101@gvr.gvr.org> <20030416121500.GA44969@fin-lebret.beauvais.fr> <20030416150700.GA25165@gvr.gvr.org> <20030416151612.GA38364@kurdistan.ath.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:48:35 -0000 S=EAr=EAciya Kurdistan=EE writes: > The Kurdish verb "levandin" means "to move" > ^^^ > Ez dilevim // I move >=20=20 > In French the verb "se laver" means "to wash"; you "move" your hands ag= ainst > ^^^ eachother (rub) them to = wash False etymology. You could, however, compare Kurdish "levandin" with French "lever" (to lift, to rise). (BTW, there is an archaic English verb "to lave" which can describe a variety of actions, including washing or bathing, which involve the movement of water) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 14:28:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595B237B404 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9DFF43F93 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:28:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id E6F10530A; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:28:37 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: JacobRhoden From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:28:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200304170955.05600.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> (JacobRhoden's message of "Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:55:05 +1000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) Emacs/21.2 References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <200304161124.59443.a.carter@intrasoft.lu> <200304170955.05600.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Luciano Evaristo Guerche cc: CARTER Anthony cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:28:41 -0000 JacobRhoden writes: > It's ironic that it would be Christians who complain about the logo, > biblically speaking, there is no such thing as a 'demon'. The bible talks > about Angels, fallen angels (of which satan is one). The image of a 'devel', > the image which cartoons tend to use to represent satan, is the typical red > horned beast, which is actually from greek/hellanistic mythology. No, the modern images of hell and the devil are mostly derived Dante Alighieri's _Divine Comedy_ (ca. 1320). Traditionally, horns have been a symbol of wisdom, and you will find that the foreheads of various saints depicted on the walls of gothic churches throughout Europe are adorned with short horns. One should also note that it is very dangerous to put too much faith in the *details* of the Bible unless one has read the original text (hebrew or greek depending on which part one is reading). So many errors in translation have been made over the years that one can't even trust a modern translation because the translator's choices in cases where the original text is ambiguous or unclear are irrevocably biased by prior knowledge of earlier translations, not to mention lack of understanding of the cultural context in which these now-dead languages existed, and the subtle ways in which the Bible has influenced our cultures and languages through two millenia of Christianity. Few people nowadays realize (unless they're reading Luke 2, 7) that a crib is actually a manger or a stall in a stable; most people think it means a child's cot. Even fewer people realize that in those days herdsmen would stable their herd in their own house, with the humans sleeping on a mezzanine where they would benefit from the heat given off by the animals below them. But "there was no place for them on the upper floor" just doesn't sound right, does it? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 14:31:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C7A37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457BF43FCB for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:31:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 44AD4530D; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:31:27 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Paul Murphy From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:31:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030417171446.18135522.pnmurphy@cogeco.ca> (Paul Murphy's message of "Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:14:46 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) Emacs/21.2 References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <200304171027.44003.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030416211054.0b7ea2e4.pnmurphy@cogeco.ca> <200304171225.17766.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030417183401.E57044@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> <20030417171446.18135522.pnmurphy@cogeco.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:31:30 -0000 Paul Murphy writes: > Hallelujah ! You're not supposed to say that word during the silent week... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 14:42:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECCAE37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A94643FBF for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:42:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 25EB1530A; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:42:05 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:42:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030422172549.GA65023@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> (Jonathon McKitrick's message of "Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:25:49 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) Emacs/21.2 References: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <444r4qmp6n.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20030422172549.GA65023@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:42:09 -0000 Jonathon McKitrick writes: > Sixteen percent would mean every 6 lines or so. That seems far too dense in > my opinion. Even when you look at hardware drivers in the kernel, there are > often only 1 or 2 lines together, separated from the rest by comments and > whitespace. I just don't get how debug time would 'increase dramatically.' That is way too much, and bde would have your nads for breakfast if you committed anything like that. Simply put, too much whitespace is just as bad as no whitespace at all. Imagine reading a book where every sentence is a separate paragraph; paragraph breaks become worthless because they no longer serve to group sentences together. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 14:47:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED4C37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A120D43F85 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:47:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 354705309; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:47:42 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:47:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: (swear@attbi.com's message of "22 Apr 2003 20:27:27 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) Emacs/21.2 References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422171035.01c5e258@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030422205617.0387b378@popserver.sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Jonathon McKitrick cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:47:45 -0000 swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > I think the whole scheme was a response to a DOD requirement for using a > PDL to specify the detailed design -- a "product" for one of the big > steps of the waterfall software development process. I think the was > something like one line of code per hour. The "industry average" (whatever that means) is 8-20 lines of correct code per day, according to McConnell - and those who would dismiss him simply because he is a Microsoft employee are close-minded bigots. Read the book and judge it by its merits and flaws, rather than proclaim it irrelevant on the basis of the name on the cover. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 16:47:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9778B37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96E043F85 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:47:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lsp3@gte.net) Received: from Pentium166 ([4.33.137.223]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.33 201-253-122-126-133-20030313) with SMTP id <20030423234705.YBEF12665.out007.verizon.net@Pentium166>; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:47:05 -0500 Message-ID: <001501c309f2$7748c820$0201a8c6@Pentium166> From: "Leland" To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422171035.01c5e258@popserver.sfu.ca><5.0.2.1.1.20030422205617.0387b378@popserver.sfu.ca> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:45:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 cc: Jonathon McKitrick cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:47:07 -0000 > > I think the whole scheme was a response to a DOD requirement for using a > > PDL to specify the detailed design -- a "product" for one of the big > > steps of the waterfall software development process. I think the was > > something like one line of code per hour. > > The "industry average" (whatever that means) is 8-20 lines of correct > code per day, according to McConnell - and those who would dismiss him > simply because he is a Microsoft employee are close-minded bigots. Remember this is for a completed project through debug, Beta, Boxed and out the door. Leland Prince From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 17:02:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF53037B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntli.com (pc1-glfd2-4-cust59.glfd.cable.ntl.com [81.99.187.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8150543FBD for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 17:02:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from aqua.lan.palfreman.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntli.com (8.12.3p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h3O0BWRa006870; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:11:32 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from localhost (william@localhost)h3O0BWAu006867; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:11:32 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: aqua.lan.palfreman.com: william owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:11:32 +0100 (BST) From: William Palfreman To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030424004945.G632@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: astanway@hotmail.com Subject: FreeBSD in General (fwd) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:02:37 -0000 This guy has just posted this monologue to freebsd-questions... I laughed so hard it brought tears to my eyes! It is by far the funniest thing anyone has ever posted to that list since I've been following it. I particularly like the bit about windows emulator for "ALL" applications, including some proper piece of junk he uses. This man is straight out of an Ayn Rand novel, as one of the How to Be Wrong characters. When he started burbling on about "returning to ashes"... "Any engineer worth his or her salt". He's an accident waiting to happen. It must have taken him hours! What a man, what a signature. Enjoy: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Gerald H. Kruchten To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:53:07 -0500 Subject: FreeBSD in General Dear Sirs, First, a little about my background in UNIX and computers in general. Basically, I am highly qualified as pretty much of a complete idiot when it comes to Unix and not much better regarding the rest of the field. That pretty much covers my background. As for details, I am not computer illiterate, nor am I any where near to being an export on any operating system or computer. I get by. I presently run Windows NT 4.0 on one computer and Windows XP pro on the other. I make use of system commander as a boot loader on both computers because I have messed around with various different operating systems. At one point in time and when I only had one computer with a ton of hard drive space, I had the following operating systems loaded up and working on this computer at once: DOS 5.0, WindowsNT4.0, OS/2Warp 4, Mandrake's Linux 7.3, FreeBSD 4.2, and BeOS. Of all of them, I liked BeOS about the best and next after that was OS/2 as a close second choice because it was so fast. But one can no longer get the necessary drivers to get anything to operate correctly. I am not a programmer and I don't intend to be a programmer because it is too late in my life to try to teach this old dog a new career. I was able to get BSD going as well as the Mandrake-Linux. Mandrake's manuals left a lot to be desired and the operating system often hung. I prefer GUI because I am not a geek; never was and don't care to become one. A person's memory is made to be used for more important things than to remember UNIX commands. The prospect of sitting in a nursing home in my late years endlessly repeating and reciting useless UNIX commands while sitting in a wheel chair in a catatonic state sends shivers up and down my spine. That thought alone is repulsive. It is just that I am so frustrated with Microsoft's mode and method doing of business. I would probably feel different about it if I felt that they had the most reliable and efficient product, but we all know that this isn't so. They do have the easiest operating systems to use. Though I am not a programmer, I am convinced that Microsoft is more concerned about snooping into my business than they are in providing the fastest and most efficient software product available. I am looking for an operating system that will smoke MS in efficiency and productivity without being required to have a PHD, Master's or any other college degree to operate a computer system. BeOS and OS/2 Warp came closest to meeting my desired requirements, but neither of them are any longer being worked on or written for. Both OSes were truly fast and were multitasking. These days, Linux and FreeBSD seem to come closest to meet what I would like see in a computer operating system. But the three main vendors of Linux software, Red Hat, Mandrake, and SuSE all seem to be trying to follow the Microsoft business model of marketing. In the process, all of them, especially Mandrake, seem to be putting out crap versions just so one vendor can claim one-upsmanship over his competitor in having the latest version on the market. While this is transpiring, MS still having all the morals of a serial rapist, is working on its next big screw job. Most likely, a lot of us will be sucked in again. The only people of this industry that I'm not hearing a lot about is FreeBSD. I haven't seen a FreeBSD stable pack box at Comp USA in months, though they are still listed on your site as being a retailer. If your going to continue having them as a retailer, rather than putting out a FreeBSD v4.8 in a box, I think that you ought to get crackin' and get a relatively bugless or debugged version of 5.0 out there. The other thing that I am looking for is a GUI windows emulator that will operate "ALL" windows applications. I request that because I am presently forced to use a charting system that is programmed and designed only for the later versions of Windows. This is because companies that offer this kind of specialized software are usually very small and simply can't afford the capital costs that go with developing applications for multiple platforms. They develop applications for Windows because most of the businesses in the stock market industry still use MS operating software. It ends up being a vicious circle that leaves you guys, Linux and me out in the cold. I do like the simplicity with which one can usually operate a Microsoft OS. It's designed with the simpleton in mind. That's me. However, I personally also like some of the (I think the term used is platforms) GUI platforms that Linux uses, especially the use of multiple open windows. I never got far enough with my 4.2 BSD version to put any type of windows on it. I want to also say this about Linux. There is just something about the way that the Linux vendors are operating that goes against my grain. For pretty much that reason alone, I don't like them. Maybe it's like Microsoft and dejavu all over again. I can not say the same though for some of the people that use it. They say, "It rocks and that Linux has much better support than BSD." I can't say "yea" or "nay" to either claim. I just think and feel that you guys are probably the last good hope of having a "One size fits all, super speedy, super reliable operating system. I know that BSD is used under MAC X OS. But some questions: #1, Who can afford to buy a Mac computer at the prices that they want for them? #2; I know that Mac is used quite extensively in publishing businesses, but do you think that MAC is going to continue or be able to remain in business? I seriously doubt it because they can't seem to get past proprietary issues. That's the mode of thinking that got them into trouble in the first place. How many years has that been the case and how far have they moved off of dead center to resolve that issue? What I perceive as an answer to that question is, "Not very far." So, unless something really Earth shattering and great suddenly begins to happen, you are left as the last hope for the average Joe hope to obtain a simple, fast, and dynamite operating system that works with virtually every application ever made. I would suspect that by now, it is quite obvious from what I have written that I have little or no clue as to what is required when it comes to writing a software program and/or application. But I shouldn't need to have one. All that I, the everyday customer, should have to tell you is what I want. Once having done so, most any engineer/technician worth his/her salt, will readily be able to figure something out design it according to those specs. I just hope that it happens before I'm returned to ashes. I would like to be able to use and enjoy a universal operating system that will be able to handle anything that I load onto it and that I won't have to ready manuals for the next ten years just to power up and sign on. I don't think that I am wishing for too much here. After all, when one people of the industry told other people at seminars just a few years ago that the average household would have a computer and many of them two or more, the majority of people scoffed at that idea. I say, "Go for all the marbles." But don't go so slow that we can sit here and watch the snails race by or watch the paint peel. Thankyou for your time. Sincerely, Gerald Kruchten _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 18:55:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77C4337B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out002.verizon.net (out002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9908843F93 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 18:55:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dacut@kanga.org) Received: from kanga.org ([68.162.155.185]) by out002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.33 201-253-122-126-133-20030313) with ESMTP id <20030424015543.SWCG22632.out002.verizon.net@kanga.org> for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:55:43 -0500 Message-ID: <3EA7441F.9080903@kanga.org> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:55:43 -0400 From: David Cuthbert User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422171035.01c5e258@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030422205617.0387b378@popserver.sfu.ca> <3EA5A53F.3016395C@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3EA5A53F.3016395C@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out002.verizon.net from [68.162.155.185] at Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:55:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:55:45 -0000 Terry Lambert wrote: > People with "vi" (and people who know how to use "grep") tend > to declare functions: > > int > foo(void) > > Rather than: > > int foo(void) Actually, I tend to do this, too, though the thought of using it for grep never occurred to me. Basically, what happened is I started writing C++ template code. That short little "int foo(void)" became: inline template T * MyContainer::foo() const Uh, yeah. Where's that function/method name again? :-) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 23 21:53:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2079B37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.net (outbound02.telus.net [199.185.220.221]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5852543FAF for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:53:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from viktorlazlo@telus.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([207.6.229.118]) by priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.netESMTP <20030424045335.QUVZ8012.priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.net@[192.168.1.100]>; Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:53:35 -0600 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 21:53:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Viktor Lazlo X-X-Sender: viktorlazlo@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net To: "Gary W. Swearingen" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030423215202.V36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mercenary coding (Re: Is there a header conflict?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 04:53:37 -0000 On 23 Apr 2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > So who owns the FreeBSD trademark and where are the "Permitted Uses" > documented, as published by other trademark owners? > > I find nothing about the trademark at www.freebsd.org and even the > copyright is claimed by a corporation (FreeBSD, Inc.) which shows > little other evidence of a legal existance, like some contact info. http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html Cheers, Viktor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 24 00:59:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA1037B401 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.alameda.net [64.81.63.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8298643FBF for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:59:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ulf@Alameda.net) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 424983A203; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:59:18 -0700 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: Viktor Lazlo Message-ID: <20030424005918.Z92807@seven.alameda.net> References: <20030423215202.V36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030423215202.V36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net>; from viktorlazlo@telus.net on Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 09:53:26PM -0700 Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.7-RELEASE-p2 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mercenary coding (Re: Is there a header conflict?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:59:19 -0000 On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 09:53:26PM -0700, Viktor Lazlo wrote: > > > On 23 Apr 2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > > So who owns the FreeBSD trademark and where are the "Permitted Uses" > > documented, as published by other trademark owners? > > > > I find nothing about the trademark at www.freebsd.org and even the > > copyright is claimed by a corporation (FreeBSD, Inc.) which shows > > little other evidence of a legal existance, like some contact info. > > http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html That should actual be: http://www.FreeBSD.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html > > Cheers, > > Viktor As to the Incorporation: http://kepler.ss.ca.gov/corpdata/ShowAllList?QueryCorpNumber=C1948888 Corporation FREEBSD, INC. Number: C1948888 Date Filed: 9/8/1995 Status: suspended Jurisdiction: California Mailing Address 4041 PIKE LN STE D CONCORD, CA 94520 Agent for Service of Process JORDAN HUBBARD 246 PARK ST CLYDE, CA 94520 Status suspend is bad, considering the copyright points to it. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 24 01:08:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52F3637B401 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (mta07-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.47]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080A343FE0 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:08:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030424080842.TNQE25105.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:08:42 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030424090719.01ddf178@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:08:39 +0100 To: ulf@Alameda.net, Viktor Lazlo From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20030424005918.Z92807@seven.alameda.net> References: <20030423215202.V36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> <20030423215202.V36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mercenary coding (Re: Is there a header conflict?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:08:45 -0000 At 00:59 24/04/2003 -0700, Ulf Zimmermann wrote: >As to the Incorporation: > >Corporation >FREEBSD, INC. >Number: C1948888 Date Filed: 9/8/1995 Status: suspended > >Status suspend is bad, considering the copyright points to it. Wasn't everything supposed to be transferred over to the FreeBSD Foundation by now? Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 24 01:26:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C9E37B409 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.alameda.net [64.81.63.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FD943FAF for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:26:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ulf@Alameda.net) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9AF9B3A204; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:26:58 -0700 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: Colin Percival Message-ID: <20030424012658.A92807@seven.alameda.net> References: <20030423215202.V36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> <20030423215202.V36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> <20030424005918.Z92807@seven.alameda.net> <5.0.2.1.1.20030424090719.01ddf178@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030424090719.01ddf178@popserver.sfu.ca>; from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk on Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 09:08:39AM +0100 Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.7-RELEASE-p2 cc: Viktor Lazlo cc: ulf@Alameda.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mercenary coding (Re: Is there a header conflict?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:27:00 -0000 On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 09:08:39AM +0100, Colin Percival wrote: > At 00:59 24/04/2003 -0700, Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > >As to the Incorporation: > > > >Corporation > >FREEBSD, INC. > >Number: C1948888 Date Filed: 9/8/1995 Status: suspended > > > >Status suspend is bad, considering the copyright points to it. > > Wasn't everything supposed to be transferred over to the FreeBSD > Foundation by now? > > Colin Percival Could well be, I never followed that part, but I know the Foundation is active, so someone might have to look at the copyright mentioned. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 24 11:53:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F3CB37B401 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E11543FBD for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:53:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03) with ESMTP id <20030424185345003006b943e>; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:53:45 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h3OIsAsg032567; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h3OIs3Jf032564; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:54:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: ulf@Alameda.net References: <20030423215202.V36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> <20030424005918.Z92807@seven.alameda.net> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 24 Apr 2003 11:54:03 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20030424005918.Z92807@seven.alameda.net> Message-ID: Lines: 61 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Viktor Lazlo cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mercenary coding (Re: Is there a header conflict?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:53:48 -0000 Ulf Zimmermann writes: > On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 09:53:26PM -0700, Viktor Lazlo wrote: > > > > On 23 Apr 2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > > > > So who owns the FreeBSD trademark and where are the "Permitted Uses" > > > documented, as published by other trademark owners? > > > > > > I find nothing about the trademark at www.freebsd.org and even the > > > copyright is claimed by a corporation (FreeBSD, Inc.) which shows > > > little other evidence of a legal existance, like some contact info. > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html That's for the copyright on the daemon logo/image, which makes me wonder if anyone is even claiming trademark protectection for that. But it doesn't really matter in this discussion as someone who wants to sell custom versions of FreeBSD CDs can easily avoid use of the daemon image. I was asking about the trademark status of the word "FreeBSD" and the copyright owner of FreeBSD code and documentation (and maybe web site). Following on the clue of Viktor, http://www.uspto.gov shows us that "FreeBSD" is a registered trademark of Walnut Creek CDROM, which using the kepler.ss.ca.gov site shows as another "suspended" California corporation. I noted once that Walnet Creek was sold to the www.simtel.net owner, but BSD Mall's site claims to be the former Walnut Creek CDROM. I don't doubt it, but their site makes no obvious claim of FreeBSD trademark ownership. I'd think that would be a necessary part of trademark protection requirements. So who owns the trademark? > That should actual be: > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html Yes, that's what makes the seemingly bogus "FreeBSD, Inc." claim. > As to the Incorporation: > > http://kepler.ss.ca.gov/corpdata/ShowAllList?QueryCorpNumber=C1948888 > > Corporation > FREEBSD, INC. > Number: C1948888 Date Filed: 9/8/1995 Status: suspended [...] > Status suspend is bad, considering the copyright points to it. Good detective work! The site's definition of "suspended" starts: "The California corporation has lost all rights and powers for failure to meet statutory filing requirements of either the Secretary of State's office or the Franchise Tax Board." (The site offers more status info for money.) Anybody care to educate us about what sorts of things typically happen to the IP assets of defunct corporations? Is it a fair guess that freebsd-license.html is effectively naming Jordon Hubbard as the sole owner of "The FreeBSD Copyright"? Or nobody? (Of course, we know that the page's title is bogus too and that there are many owners of FreeBSD.) We can hope that all of this continues to be of little importance. After all, nothing succeeds like success (the old NASA motto?). From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 24 12:37:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E891537B401 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FBF743F85 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:37:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03) with ESMTP id <20030424193719003006cicle>; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:37:19 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h3OJbdsg033238; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:37:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h3OJbPXt033233; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:37:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: David Cuthbert References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030422171035.01c5e258@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030422205617.0387b378@popserver.sfu.ca> <3EA5A53F.3016395C@mindspring.com> <3EA7441F.9080903@kanga.org> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 24 Apr 2003 12:37:24 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3EA7441F.9080903@kanga.org> Message-ID: <7rr87radqj.87r@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:37:21 -0000 David Cuthbert writes: > inline template T * MyContainer::foo() const > > Uh, yeah. Where's that function/method name again? :-) That's a big peeve of mine. Languages should have all declarations begin with the name of the thing being declared, so hunting for declarations is easier, especially in black & white. I haven't thought it through, but I'm guessing that an object-oriented lanugage like Python could be easily modified to simply have declarations look like assignments, my_fun = function(a,b,c), my_var = integer(32), etc. I wrote a couple of small programs using this macro #define __(x,y) y x so I could keep the non-name junk at the end. IIRC, it worked best (esthetically) to use "__()" around most non-control statements whether or not it was a declaration, but I didn't do enough programming to know if the improved readability was worth the trouble of using the macro. Unlikely, and it's no good for code to be shared with others, of course. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 24 13:44:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C6A37B401 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F1443F3F for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:44:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 868E05308; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:44:26 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:44:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: (swear@attbi.com's message of "24 Apr 2003 11:54:03 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) Emacs/21.2 References: <20030423215202.V36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> <20030424005918.Z92807@seven.alameda.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Viktor Lazlo cc: ulf@Alameda.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mercenary coding (Re: Is there a header conflict?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:44:32 -0000 swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > Following on the clue of Viktor, http://www.uspto.gov shows us that > "FreeBSD" is a registered trademark of Walnut Creek CDROM, which using > the kepler.ss.ca.gov site shows as another "suspended" California > corporation. They were acquired by BSDI. > I noted once that Walnet Creek was sold to the > www.simtel.net owner, No, they only sold them the FTP server (ftp.cdrom.com). > but BSD Mall's site claims to be the former Walnut > Creek CDROM. That is correct, CDROM production and web store were split out into a separate company when WRS bought BSDI. > I don't doubt it, but their site makes no obvious claim > of FreeBSD trademark ownership. I'd think that would be a necessary > part of trademark protection requirements. So who owns the trademark? I believe it was supposed to be transferred to the Foundation at the time of the WRS acquisition, but TESS (USPTO search engine) shows that it is still registered to Walnut Creek. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 24 14:45:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E29337B401 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C739943F85 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:45:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 20576 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2003 21:46:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender )encrypted SMTP for ; 24 Apr 2003 21:46:06 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h3OLjqOv001279; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:45:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.4 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:45:56 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav cc: Viktor Lazlo cc: ulf@Alameda.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mercenary coding (Re: Is there a header conflict?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:45:59 -0000 >> but BSD Mall's site claims to be the former Walnut >> Creek CDROM. > > That is correct, CDROM production and web store were split out into a > separate company when WRS bought BSDI. No, they were initialliy acquired by WRS along with the other software assets of BSDi. Only the hardware portion of BSDi was split off at the acquisition. Later the FreeBSD side of BSDi at WRS was laid off and the FreeBSD CDROM production and web store were bought by the original owner of Walnut Creek CDROM. Hence the confusion. My best guess is that WRS still holds the FreeBSD trademark. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 24 15:24:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2DE837B401 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nebula.skynet.be (nebula.skynet.be [195.238.2.112]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD2A343FCB for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:24:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pascal.pype@skynet.be) Received: from skynet.be (234.84-136-217.adsl.skynet.be [217.136.84.234]) id h3OMOMCq003071 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:24:22 +0200 (envelope-from ) Message-ID: <3EA8B9BC.6030805@skynet.be> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 06:29:48 +0200 From: Pascal Pype User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030323 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: What a distro! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:24:29 -0000 Hello Free BSD users , developers, admins, maintainers and whoever is responsible for that briljant piece of software. Free BSD release 4.8 runs flawlessly on my old pentium I box. It grossly outperforms the Slackware , SusSe and Mandrake linux distros that were present on that same box before. In my humble opinion those three linux distros performed a fine job. A Slackware linux already runs on a second pentium III box. The following question appeared : "Why not try out a BSD flavour ?" It seems that also BSD is able of clustering several machines into one powerful parallel beast. So the old pentium I PC gets equiped with Free BSD release 4.8 instead of the three linux-es it had before. The performance was really astonishing. No wonder , why Apple choose a BSD derivative to forge its Darwin MAC OS X kernel from. CONGRATULATIONS AND KEEP UP TO EXCELLENT WORK , GENTLEMEN!!! Yours , sincerely. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 24 21:38:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F1737B401 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D142443FCB for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:38:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 198uyZ-000K2x-2U; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 05:38:19 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h3P4cEPe082284; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 05:38:15 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h3P4cEjf082283; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 05:38:14 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 05:38:13 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030425043813.GE81840@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3EA591C1.AE00376A@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EA591C1.AE00376A@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: -14.3 (--------------) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *198uyZ-000K2x-2U*Whl5gFWHxJk* cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 04:38:25 -0000 I'm replying privately, because I have a few specific questions that might not be of interest to the rest of the list. On Tue, Apr 22, 2003 at 12:02:25PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: : So debugging is about being able to "grok" the code: to be able : to understand both its purpose, and how well it's self is aligned : with that purpose. : : So offseting discrete logic blocks that are intended to achive : specific goals makes it easier for the programmer to hold in : their head both the idea of what the code is intended to do, and : what their own logic dictates to them that the code actually : does. Do you feel your code does that, or are you one of the 'dense' style programmers, subconsciously trying to avoid wasted space? jcm -- Consulting: If you aren't part of the solution, there is a lot of money to be made in prolonging the problem. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 24 21:49:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4EF37B401 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D82643FB1 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:49:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 198v9U-000NVn-TM; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 05:49:36 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h3P4naPe082348; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 05:49:36 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h3P4nak2082347; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 05:49:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 05:49:35 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Message-ID: <20030425044935.GG81840@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <444r4qmp6n.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20030422172549.GA65023@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: -15.1 (---------------) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *198v9U-000NVn-TM*s.fbNzNicsw* cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 04:49:43 -0000 On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 11:42:05PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: : That is way too much, and bde would have your nads for breakfast if : you committed anything like that. Who is bde, again? : Simply put, too much whitespace is just as bad as no whitespace at : all. Imagine reading a book where every sentence is a separate : paragraph; paragraph breaks become worthless because they no longer : serve to group sentences together. True, yet a lot of the kernel code and driver code does just that: extensive commenting, even when it only means one line of code. jcm -- Consulting: If you aren't part of the solution, there is a lot of money to be made in prolonging the problem. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 25 05:01:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A90AE37B401; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 05:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFDCD43FB1; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 05:01:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 48B5A5309; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:01:14 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: John Baldwin From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:01:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: (John Baldwin's message of "Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:45:56 -0400 (EDT)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) Emacs/21.2 References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Viktor Lazlo cc: ulf@Alameda.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mercenary coding (Re: Is there a header conflict?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:01:18 -0000 John Baldwin writes: > No, they were initialliy acquired by WRS along with the other software > assets of BSDi. Only the hardware portion of BSDi was split off at the > acquisition. Later the FreeBSD side of BSDi at WRS was laid off and the > FreeBSD CDROM production and web store were bought by the original owner > of Walnut Creek CDROM. Hence the confusion. My best guess is that WRS > still holds the FreeBSD trademark. According to the USPTO's online search engine, it is still registered to WC, which is "suspended" - but I imagine that WRS hold all the shares. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 25 05:02:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5B2737B401 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 05:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01D7743FCB for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 05:02:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id E99FC5308; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:02:21 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:02:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030425044935.GG81840@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> (Jonathon McKitrick's message of "Fri, 25 Apr 2003 05:49:35 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) Emacs/21.2 References: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <444r4qmp6n.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20030422172549.GA65023@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030425044935.GG81840@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:02:24 -0000 Jonathon McKitrick writes: > On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 11:42:05PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > : That is way too much, and bde would have your nads for breakfast if > : you committed anything like that. > Who is bde, again? http://www.ofug.org/bruce.html DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 25 07:40:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B2037B407 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hope.caffeinated-systems.com (hope.caffeinated-systems.com [209.98.4.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37C143FBF for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:40:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jon@caffeinated-systems.com) Received: by hope.caffeinated-systems.com (Postfix, from userid 1003) id C11984D912; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:15:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:15:32 -0500 From: Jon Passki To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030425141532.GD14108@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: Video Out to Video In converter X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:40:42 -0000 Hello, I'm looking for a device that would allow me to connect, for example, a standard PC video output (640x480, 256 color) to a device that could in turn convert it back into an abstracted signal. That device would be accessed by, again an example, a local program that would resend the information out using the X protocol as a client program. The purpose is to access systems that have no means of communications other than video and keyboard, without needed a monitor or needed to be physically near the system. This device doesn't need to be so sophisticated that it can autodetect every video output on the world and have applicable connector types. If a device like this doesn't exist, logically, what seems to be a clean way in creating a device like this? What should be left to the device, and what should be configureable to the device driver? Under FreeBSD, what type of device driver best fits this scenario? Thanks for your time on these vague questions :-) Jon From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 25 08:02:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5217637B401 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hope.caffeinated-systems.com (hope.caffeinated-systems.com [209.98.4.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AF2643F3F for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:02:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jon@caffeinated-systems.com) Received: by hope.caffeinated-systems.com (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 030244D912; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:37:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:37:16 -0500 From: Jon Passki To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030425143716.GE14108@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> References: <20030425141532.GD14108@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030425141532.GD14108@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: Re: Video Out to Video In converter X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:02:25 -0000 Shameless self-followup... On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 09:15:32AM -0500, Jon Passki wrote: > Hello, > > I'm looking for a device that would allow me to connect, for example, > a standard PC video output (640x480, 256 color) to a device that could > in turn convert it back into an abstracted signal. That device would > be accessed by, again an example, a local program that would resend > the information out using the X protocol as a client program. The > purpose is to access systems that have no means of communications > other than video and keyboard, without needed a monitor or needed to > be physically near the system. Okay, I should have searched longer. I guess the term is a KVM-over-IP device. Many of them have their own servers, though. Some http w/ SSL, some with VNC. Has anyone seen a device that can connect to a host system, like FreeBSD, and be utilized by that system, versus the black-box approach? Jon From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 25 14:59:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6CDC37B401 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510FE43FB1 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:59:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0134.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.134] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 199BAU-0006R3-00; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:55:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3EA9AE92.7D721BD9@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:54:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick References: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3EA591C1.AE00376A@mindspring.com> <20030425043813.GE81840@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a476f7c8e56f53506ce00cd7638cb06e13666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 21:59:31 -0000 Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > : So offseting discrete logic blocks that are intended to achive > : specific goals makes it easier for the programmer to hold in > : their head both the idea of what the code is intended to do, and > : what their own logic dictates to them that the code actually > : does. > > Do you feel your code does that, or are you one of the 'dense' style > programmers, subconsciously trying to avoid wasted space? It depends on the problem being solved. If it's not well understood, then I will be very careful to make the code as readable as possible. If it's new code, I tend to document the crap out of it, on general principles: I'd like it to be possible for someone else to maintain, if necessary. I also like my assumptions going in and out to be known. I tend to try for single-entry and single-exit in most functions, which is about the only way to deal with locking issues without introducing logic bombs for the unwary who follow you. For most things, I try to match the style of the existing code in the area, so that there's not a radical change of style in the middle of the code; nothing makes code more unreadable than to change style in the middle of it. It's one of the reasons I disliked the ANSI C switch-over to prototype-style declarations: you ended up with mixed code styles in kernel sources, damaging readability. I never put comments like "you are not expected to understand this" in my code; if that were ever actually true, then I've failed at my job (IMO). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 25 15:01:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90ED537B401 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0970543F85 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:01:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0134.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.134] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 199BFl-0007T7-00; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:01:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3EA9AFDA.65B1D90E@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:59:54 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick References: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <444r4qmp6n.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20030422172549.GA65023@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030425044935.GG81840@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a419d80e7fca1fc7cdc8668274e5a3ca14387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:01:17 -0000 Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Wed, Apr 23, 2003 at 11:42:05PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > : Simply put, too much whitespace is just as bad as no whitespace at > : all. Imagine reading a book where every sentence is a separate > : paragraph; paragraph breaks become worthless because they no longer > : serve to group sentences together. > > True, yet a lot of the kernel code and driver code does just that: extensive > commenting, even when it only means one line of code. If you are documenting the hardware in the process of writing the driver, you want extensive comments. This is particularly true if you are doing something clever, the hardware is doing something clever, or the documentation for the hardware is not generally accessible. Personally, I love the comments in most of Bill Paul's network drivers (for example); among other things, vendors have actually read them, and taken them into account for the next generation hardware designs (e.g. RealTek's newer stuff is much better, for the critique of their old stuff). Personally, I think Linux and FreeBSD driver code *should* document the hardware, at least well enough to let someone take a driver written for one of the OSs, and use it to write a driver for some other OS. This means documenting device register bits, rather than poking some magic number into it, and expecting people to blindly follow your lead. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 25 15:09:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E93A37B401 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA0E243F93 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:09:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0134.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.134] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 199BNv-0002wg-00; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:09:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3EA9B1D4.E2DE3E4F@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:08:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jon Passki References: <20030425141532.GD14108@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a419d80e7fca1fc7cda76b7cec1428ea18a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video Out to Video In converter X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:09:59 -0000 Jon Passki wrote: > I'm looking for a device that would allow me to connect, for example, > a standard PC video output (640x480, 256 color) to a device that could > in turn convert it back into an abstracted signal. That device would > be accessed by, again an example, a local program that would resend > the information out using the X protocol as a client program. The > purpose is to access systems that have no means of communications > other than video and keyboard, without needed a monitor or needed to > be physically near the system. You need to replace the video card with a "screen scraper" card; there are a number of these available. The point is that the video signal, once turned analog, has no reverse process to get it back; so instead of doing that, you really want to take the contents of screen memory directly. As I said, there are a number of vendors who sell EGA/VGA cards with no monitor output at all, that you can read the video RAM out of them directly. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 25 15:33:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30CDD37B401 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hope.caffeinated-systems.com (hope.caffeinated-systems.com [209.98.4.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD6E43F93 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jon@caffeinated-systems.com) Received: by hope.caffeinated-systems.com (Postfix, from userid 1003) id D57C24D28A; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:08:11 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:08:11 -0500 From: Jon Passki To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030425220811.GF14108@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> References: <20030425141532.GD14108@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> <3EA9B1D4.E2DE3E4F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EA9B1D4.E2DE3E4F@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Jon Passki Subject: Re: Video Out to Video In converter X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:33:22 -0000 On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 03:08:20PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Jon Passki wrote: > > I'm looking for a device that would allow me to connect, for example, > > a standard PC video output (640x480, 256 color) to a device that could > > in turn convert it back into an abstracted signal. That device would > > be accessed by, again an example, a local program that would resend > > the information out using the X protocol as a client program. The > > purpose is to access systems that have no means of communications > > other than video and keyboard, without needed a monitor or needed to > > be physically near the system. > > You need to replace the video card with a "screen scraper" card; > there are a number of these available. > > The point is that the video signal, once turned analog, has no > reverse process to get it back; so instead of doing that, you > really want to take the contents of screen memory directly. > > As I said, there are a number of vendors who sell EGA/VGA cards > with no monitor output at all, that you can read the video RAM > out of them directly. One assumption I did not mention is that the system cannot have additional hardware installed. I understand that the signal is now analog, so it can only be "redisplayed" as an interpreted signal. The solution is not perfect, but since the assumptions (hopefully most are clear and out of my head) aren't forgiving, that's acceptable. Imagine hooking up hardware to the video output of an antiquated system. Through a mixture of magic, the end results is that output is displayed, for example, in a reduced display on a graphical desktop. The quality may not be the best, the bandwidth for all this may be obscene, but I'm thinking more on the concepts now. I hope that clears things up, and thank you for your feedback. Take care, Jon From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 25 15:55:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC53037B401 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2838643F93 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:55:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0134.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.134] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 199C5n-0000vW-00; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:54:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3EA9BC72.3A00CD62@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:53:38 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jon Passki References: <20030425141532.GD14108@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> <3EA9B1D4.E2DE3E4F@mindspring.com> <20030425220811.GF14108@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a49028eb09847d32c5f6d2891d12cf51c0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video Out to Video In converter X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:55:16 -0000 Jon Passki wrote: > Imagine hooking up hardware to the video output of an antiquated > system. Through a mixture of magic, the end results is that output > is displayed, for example, in a reduced display on a graphical > desktop. The quality may not be the best, the bandwidth for all this > may be obscene, but I'm thinking more on the concepts now. Yeah; it's a cool idea that you really don't have much of a chance of ever getting implemented. 8-). Basically, you want to take some digital data, like the contents of a VGA card RAM, let the card turn it analog, and then take the analog signal and turn it back into a digital copy of the original screen RAM. I get it, even though I would never do it that way; better to add a US$80.00 screen-scraper card to the cost of the system. Maybe you could consider a web-cam pointed at the monitor? It'd be cheaper than the alternatives... 8-) 8-). US$4000.00 US$7000.00 -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 25 16:22:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677D337B401 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitblocks.com (bitblocks.com [209.204.185.216]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B917643FB1 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:22:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bitblocks.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h3PNLnPF012403; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:21:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Message-Id: <200304252321.h3PNLnPF012403@bitblocks.com> To: Terry Lambert In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:53:38 PDT." <3EA9BC72.3A00CD62@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:21:49 -0700 From: Bakul Shah cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Jon Passki Subject: Re: Video Out to Video In converter X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 23:22:50 -0000 > Yeah; it's a cool idea that you really don't have much of a > chance of ever getting implemented. 8-). > > Basically, you want to take some digital data, like the contents > of a VGA card RAM, let the card turn it analog, and then take > the analog signal and turn it back into a digital copy of the > original screen RAM. There are cards that accept VCR input (cards such as WinTV). Most all laptops have a TV-out signal but external SVGA to NTSC converters should be available. May be he can feed such a TV-out signal to video in of a winTV card, capture each frame digitally and send it out over the net? This should just "work". Check out multimedia@freebsd.org archives. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 25 16:25:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0171F37B404 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hope.caffeinated-systems.com (hope.caffeinated-systems.com [209.98.4.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D23C843F93 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:25:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jon@caffeinated-systems.com) Received: by hope.caffeinated-systems.com (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 214C14D28A; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:00:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:00:20 -0500 From: Jon Passki To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030425230020.GG14108@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> References: <20030425141532.GD14108@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> <3EA9B1D4.E2DE3E4F@mindspring.com> <20030425220811.GF14108@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> <3EA9BC72.3A00CD62@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EA9BC72.3A00CD62@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video Out to Video In converter X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 23:25:43 -0000 On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 03:53:38PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Jon Passki wrote: > > Imagine hooking up hardware to the video output of an antiquated > > system. Through a mixture of magic, the end results is that output > > is displayed, for example, in a reduced display on a graphical > > desktop. The quality may not be the best, the bandwidth for all this > > may be obscene, but I'm thinking more on the concepts now. > > Yeah; it's a cool idea that you really don't have much of a > chance of ever getting implemented. 8-). > > Basically, you want to take some digital data, like the contents > of a VGA card RAM, let the card turn it analog, and then take > the analog signal and turn it back into a digital copy of the > original screen RAM. I think that's a good explination. > I get it, even though I would never do it that way; better to add > a US$80.00 screen-scraper card to the cost of the system. > > Maybe you could consider a web-cam pointed at the monitor? It'd > be cheaper than the alternatives... 8-) 8-). Could be :-) > > > US$4000.00 > > > > US$7000.00 > > http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&krd=1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=kvm+over+ip $1,1750, but a web cam is still cheaper... At least in practice, it seems that it's possible. Take care, Jon From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 25 17:30:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E22AF37B401 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C5D43FB1 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:30:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with ESMTP id <2003042600305600100e3868e>; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:30:56 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h3Q0V3sg054646; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:31:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h3Q0UvCq054643; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:30:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Terry Lambert References: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <444r4qmp6n.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20030422172549.GA65023@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030425044935.GG81840@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3EA9AFDA.65B1D90E@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 25 Apr 2003 17:30:56 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3EA9AFDA.65B1D90E@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3qel3q9k1r.l3q@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:30:58 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > Personally, I think Linux and FreeBSD driver code *should* document > the hardware, [...] And it should be kept in the source code (or an Article), not in the USER MANUAL, as seems to be SOP (eg, for the RealTek "rl" driver). Unfortunately, it's clear from intro(4) that FreeBSD prefers to have users slogging through the same manpages as driver developers. But I suppose it's practically unavoidable without paid documenters. And, though you apparently disagree with me, the documentation shouldn't publicly humiliate the hardware manufacturer, as the "rl" manpage does. A private message to the manufacturer would be more seemly. If I were RealTek, I'd withhold ALL documentation and communication with FreeBSD people until they stopped their anti-advertising campain against my company. I filed PR 31271 on this matter and it got multiple agreement from doc-ers and got "fixed", but it seems that somebody's vicious streak ran too deep and the nastiness was mostly restored -- and it's much worse in the driver source. And if RealTek has improved, as you say, those comments certainly ought to be improved too. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 25 20:44:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3DED37B401 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE1243FBD for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:44:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0105.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.105] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 199Gbv-0002OW-00; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:44:25 -0700 Message-ID: <3EAA0032.3CE3AF41@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:42:42 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <20030422132906.GB64101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <444r4qmp6n.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20030422172549.GA65023@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030425044935.GG81840@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3qel3q9k1r.l3q@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a46ae079186ed1a16b13e53ade4dc850f2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code layout and debugging time X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 03:44:29 -0000 "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > And, though you apparently disagree with me, the documentation shouldn't > publicly humiliate the hardware manufacturer, as the "rl" manpage does. > A private message to the manufacturer would be more seemly. If I were > RealTek, I'd withhold ALL documentation and communication with FreeBSD > people until they stopped their anti-advertising campain against my > company. I don't know about that. If someone builds bogus hardware, you should probably call them on it. I remember when Adaptec came out with their "HIM" layer to keep people from implementing plug-compatible hardware that worked with Adaptec drivers, and all the OpenSource people were out in the cold, until they rewrote the sequencer code from scratch. There are still some Adaptec RAID controllers for which the RAID sequencer code has never been rewritten, and so don't support RAID. Likewise, I remember when Diamond Multimedia had a couple of revisions of their video cards, and because they didn't table drive the INT 10 ROM implementation, and wanted to be able to do ECNs by reprogramming their PAL and their ROM, without changing the card design otherwise, and so they didn't work with XFree86 at all. All because they didn't table-drive the PAL inputs from a documented table that was stored after a known ROM signature (which would have allowed Open Source card independent drivers for the "Viper" and other cards, without risking your hardware from bad PAL inputs). Likewise, Winmodems. Calling people on bad designs is almost a sacred duty. 8-). I do know that I tend to read the drivers when trying to pick between two pieces of hardware that nominally fulfill the same role. > I filed PR 31271 on this matter and it got multiple agreement > from doc-ers and got "fixed", but it seems that somebody's vicious > streak ran too deep and the nastiness was mostly restored -- and it's > much worse in the driver source. And if RealTek has improved, as you > say, those comments certainly ought to be improved too. The comments are, well, irascible is probably the best word; still, being blunt is not all bad. The new cards, which use a different driver, have improved. The old cards still have all the problems they are documented as having. I'd prefer it if I were less likely to have an old lemon unloaded on me because the new hardware unfairly raises the brand reputation: "a rising tide floats all boats", as they say; it's probably not worth buying an Edsel because you like the new Mustang, or having "Car and Driver" retract what they said about the Edsel, because they have nice things to say about the new Mustang. An Edsel is still an Edsel. If you want a different analogy: Conexant makes real modems, and Conexant makes Winmodems, but just because I like their real modems, doesn't mean I'm going to buy anything with the name Conexant on the box. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 26 00:25:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8287137B401 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sc018pub.verizon.net (sc018pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5EF43FBD for ; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:25:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from [4.47.74.254] (port=8530 helo=europa) by sc018pub.verizon.net with smtp (Exim 4.14) id 199K3o-0003vw-AW; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 02:25:24 -0500 Message-ID: <005a01c30bc5$76509040$6f64a8c0@europa> From: "Robert Clark" To: "Jon Passki" , References: <20030425141532.GD14108@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> <20030425143716.GE14108@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:28:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: Re: Video Out to Video In converter X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 07:25:26 -0000 vncserver is a software based solution, but the price is good. [RC] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Passki" To: Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 7:37 AM Subject: Re: Video Out to Video In converter > Shameless self-followup... > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 09:15:32AM -0500, Jon Passki wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I'm looking for a device that would allow me to connect, for example, > > a standard PC video output (640x480, 256 color) to a device that could > > in turn convert it back into an abstracted signal. That device would > > be accessed by, again an example, a local program that would resend > > the information out using the X protocol as a client program. The > > purpose is to access systems that have no means of communications > > other than video and keyboard, without needed a monitor or needed to > > be physically near the system. > > Okay, I should have searched longer. I guess the term is a KVM-over-IP > device. Many of them have their own servers, though. Some http w/ > SSL, some with VNC. Has anyone seen a device that can connect to a > host system, like FreeBSD, and be utilized by that system, versus the > black-box approach? > > Jon > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 26 10:31:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 229DE37B401 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 10:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [193.197.184.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA96A43FA3 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 10:31:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with gbsmtp id 199TWY-0004pw-0E; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:31:42 +0200 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3QHAqgG073789 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:10:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.9/8.12.8/Submit) id h3QHAqNJ073785 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:10:52 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:10:51 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Need help buying American lipstick X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:31:54 -0000 Since nothing ever is too off-topic for -chat... I'm trying to buy some American lipstick that isn't available here in Europe (or so I'm told). Revlon Moon Drops Lipstick Color: Orange Flip It exists, in fact it's probably available in any U.S. supermarket at about USD 8.00 each, but I have been unable to find an online retailer who has it listed _and_ ships to Europe. If somebody can point me to an online store, great. Otherwise, I'm looking for a helpful person to walk into a store, buy a batch, and ship it over. I can send you the money by paypal or some other convenient means. Please? You would make a middle-aged lady (my mom) very happy. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 26 10:47:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C35A37B401 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 10:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pop015.verizon.net (pop015pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.172]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB4943F85 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 10:47:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Raspa.Dura@verizon.net) Received: from Paquita ([151.203.202.223]) by pop015.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.33 201-253-122-126-133-20030313) with ESMTP id <20030426174736.JJKF6016.pop015.verizon.net@Paquita>; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:47:36 -0500 Message-ID: <200304261347360251.1A92E90B@OUTGOING.VERIZON.NET> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.30.00.00 (4) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:47:36 -0400 From: "Raspa Dura" To: naddy@mips.inka.de Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at pop015.verizon.net from [151.203.202.223] at Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:47:35 -0500 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need help buying American lipstick X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Raspa.Dura@verizon.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:47:37 -0000 On 4/26/2003 at 5:10 PM naddy@mips.inka.de wrote: >Since nothing ever is too off-topic for -chat... > >I'm trying to buy some American lipstick that isn't available here >in Europe (or so I'm told). > > Revlon Moon Drops Lipstick > Color: Orange Flip > >It exists, in fact it's probably available in any U.S. supermarket >at about USD 8.00 each, but I have been unable to find an online >retailer who has it listed _and_ ships to Europe. > >If somebody can point me to an online store, great. Otherwise, I'm >looking for a helpful person to walk into a store, buy a batch, and >ship it over. I can send you the money by paypal or some other >convenient means. Please? You would make a middle-aged lady (my >mom) very happy. > >-- >Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** Would this really be for your mom or perhaps is it for yourself? Raspa