From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 05:34:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F00237B401 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 05:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB3CB43F75 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 05:34:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8CB53D28; Sun, 4 May 2003 08:34:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 08:34:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3EB4D079.26872.32A7E84C@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 12:34:03 -0000 Jeremy wrote: > Has anyone heard of an open source license where new code based on it can > be kept proprietary for 24 months? > > Then after the 24 months that code becomes part of the public code base. > > I read a magazine article saying that the BSD license does this 24 month > innovations claim. For the record, the BSD license does no such thing. (I know you know that...). > Time for a letter to the editor ... Details of the article please... -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 07:30:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE5E37B404 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 07:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [193.197.184.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBDF43FBF for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 07:30:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with gbsmtp id 19CKW1-0004Ig-05; Sun, 04 May 2003 16:30:57 +0200 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h44E8C28084032 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 16:08:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.9/8.12.8/Submit) id h44E8COK084031 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 4 May 2003 16:08:12 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 14:08:11 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:31:00 -0000 Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > Has anyone heard of an open source license where new code based on it can > be kept proprietary for 24 months? More likely, a piece of code is kept proprietary for 24 months and only then released under an Open Source license. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 07:51:51 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F5437B401 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 07:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao02.cox.net (lakemtao02.cox.net [68.1.17.243]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C3D43F75 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 07:51:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com ([68.106.174.190]) by lakemtao02.cox.netESMTP <20030504145149.VVFS24359.lakemtao02.cox.net@vwinxp.threespace.com> for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 10:51:49 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030503194513.01c16b20@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 19:46:00 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: OpenBSD contract suspended X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:51:51 -0000 Had anybody else heard about this? I know I'm usually way behind the curve on learning about this sort of stuff. http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/04/24/HNdarpaopen_1.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 09:30:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8648837B401 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 09:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [193.197.184.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A928143FBF for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 09:30:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with gbsmtp id 19CMNb-0002lN-09; Sun, 04 May 2003 18:30:23 +0200 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h44G7W28087017 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 18:07:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.9/8.12.8/Submit) id h44G7WRt087016 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 4 May 2003 18:07:32 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 16:07:31 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030503194513.01c16b20@threespace.com> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OpenBSD contract suspended X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 16:30:25 -0000 Chip Morton wrote: > Had anybody else heard about this? I know I'm usually way behind the curve > on learning about this sort of stuff. > http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/04/24/HNdarpaopen_1.html Yeah, this has seen a tiny bit of publicity. See the April section of http://www.openbsd.org/press.html. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 09:52:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 991E637B401 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 09:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04FE243FCB for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 09:52:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE0723D28; Sun, 4 May 2003 12:52:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Chip Morton Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 12:52:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3EB50D09.25473.33947F28@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4.3.2.7.2.20030503194513.01c16b20@threespace.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: OpenBSD contract suspended X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 16:52:29 -0000 > Had anybody else heard about this? I know I'm usually way behind the > curve on learning about this sort of stuff. > > http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/04/24/HNdarpaopen_1.html If anything, the suspension has had more coverage than the original grant. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 11:43:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41CD37B401 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 11:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5468243FA3 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 11:43:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0293.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.38] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19COSA-0006sD-00; Sun, 04 May 2003 11:43:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3EB55EF4.63C6AB6@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 11:41:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030503194513.01c16b20@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4c6c32dae50d4c90c94b82634a0995eb5a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: OpenBSD contract suspended X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 18:43:17 -0000 Chip Morton wrote: > Had anybody else heard about this? I know I'm usually way behind the curve > on learning about this sort of stuff. > > http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/04/24/HNdarpaopen_1.html Whatever the reason for the suspension (most likely, the inability to implement "TIA" in the face of strong security), this has been a publicity gold mine for Theo. For example, h now has people posting OpenBSD information on FreeBSD-chat, such as yourself. 8-). Even if he were right about it being in retaliation for his comments, where I come from there's a saying: "Don't bite the hand that feeds you". -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 11:56:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20DBC37B401 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 11:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50EF243F93 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 11:56:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with ESMTP id <2003050418564200100aucete>; Sun, 4 May 2003 18:56:42 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h44Iu2sg022925 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 11:56:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h44ItvIN022922; Sun, 4 May 2003 11:55:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3EB4D079.26872.32A7E84C@localhost> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 04 May 2003 11:55:56 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3EB4D079.26872.32A7E84C@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 30 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 18:56:44 -0000 > > Has anyone heard of an open source license where new code based on it can > > be kept proprietary for 24 months? The copyleftists consider that any GPL-incompatible open source license keeps code proprietary for 24 months (and more). I'd hope that BSD and X11 (and other non-GNU) developers would consider that the GPL keeps code proprietary for 24 months (and more). But according to the many dictionaries I've checked (excepting the copyleftist Hackers Dictionary) licenses have nothing to do with whether the code is kept proprietary. Copyright law keeps it proprietary until the code enters the public domain through copyright expiration or owners' irreversible waiver of all rights. (End of sermon.) Have I heard of an open-source license where the license to derive does not take effect until after 24 months? Not exactly, but... I've read in -chat that the Softupdate code had a relatively severe license for a while, but I don't know if that was built into the original license, or handled by a scheduled license change. There's a story about O'Reily using a licenses with the original, 1790, copyright duration. http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/05/02/1557253&mode=thread&tid=188&tid=192 Randolph (Randy) Bentson's "Inside Linux" book is covered by typical implied licenses until 2010 when the GPL will kick in, says the book. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 12:57:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2E8E37B401 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 12:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19F8143FAF for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 12:57:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0293.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.38] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19CPbZ-0000dM-00; Sun, 04 May 2003 12:57:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3EB5703C.7DE5D1F1@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 12:55:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a49d01e0a288a34e89844525c78145f384350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 19:57:19 -0000 "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > Has anyone heard of an open source license where new code based on it can > be kept proprietary for 24 months? > > Then after the 24 months that code becomes part of the public code base. > > I read a magazine article saying that the BSD license does this 24 month > innovations claim. > > Time for a letter to the editor ... Whistle did this when it funded the Soft Updates code. It was partially Whistle's idea (to prevent immediate competition use of the code), and partially Kirk's (to allow him time to sell seperate licenses for ports to people like Sun). If you go back and look in the Attic, when the code was in a separate location in the tree, it had such a license. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 13:27:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7122C37B401 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 13:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912B143FBF for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 13:27:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0293.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.38] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19CQ4p-00055c-00; Sun, 04 May 2003 13:27:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3EB5774D.535E5611@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 13:25:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <3EB4D079.26872.32A7E84C@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43af7eef52af19d4392a3aee7c105e67a2601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 20:27:18 -0000 "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Have I heard of an open-source license where the license to derive > does not take effect until after 24 months? Not exactly, but... > > I've read in -chat that the Softupdate code had a relatively severe > license for a while, but I don't know if that was built into the > original license, or handled by a scheduled license change. It was not allowed to be shipped by default, as it had a "no commercial distribution" clause to allow Whistle time to amortize its investment, and to allow Kirk to protect his. The time limit was spelled out in the contract, but not explicitly in the license. As it turned out, we let it go out sooner than the term. Even so, individuals were not prevented from using soft updates, even when the machine was being used for commercial purposes (e.g. Matt Dillon's "Best Internet" used it for a long time on their servers, but they didn't sell servers with it precompiled on them, so it was OK under the license). That's hardly "severe", IMO; we could easily have just kept it proprietary to Whistle. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 14:50:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9131637B401 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 14:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes09-hme0.telusplanet.net (outbound02.telus.net [199.185.220.221]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF42743F75 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 14:50:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from viktorlazlo@telus.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([207.6.229.118]) by priv-edtnes09-hme0.telusplanet.netESMTP <20030504215040.VGZG26116.priv-edtnes09-hme0.telusplanet.net@[192.168.1.100]>; Sun, 4 May 2003 15:50:40 -0600 Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 14:50:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Viktor Lazlo X-X-Sender: viktorlazlo@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net To: Chip Morton In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030503194513.01c16b20@threespace.com> Message-ID: <20030504143633.Y36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: OpenBSD contract suspended X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 21:50:42 -0000 On Sat, 3 May 2003, Chip Morton wrote: > Had anybody else heard about this? I know I'm usually way behind the curve > on learning about this sort of stuff. > > http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/04/24/HNdarpaopen_1.html The following has been on the openbsd website for a while now: DARPA suddenly and unexpectedly cancelled funding for OpenBSD R&D through the University of Pennsylvania's POSSE program and the hotel for the upcoming hackathon. Nevertheless the hackathon will happen as scheduled, and we will continue to operate based on donations from the user community and other sources who continue to support the project. "As a result of the DARPA review of the project, and due to world events and the evolving threat posed by increasingly capable nation-states, the Government on April 21 advised the University to suspend work on the "security fest" portion of the project." (ie. the OpenBSD c2k3 hackathon) -- Jan Walker, (703) 696-2404, jwalker@darpa.mil Cheers, Viktor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 16:27:51 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D55237B401 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 16:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CAF743FDF for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 16:27:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id EE99A530E; Mon, 5 May 2003 01:27:46 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 01:27:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: (swear@attbi.com's message of "04 May 2003 11:55:56 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) Emacs/21.3 References: <3EB4D079.26872.32A7E84C@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 23:27:51 -0000 swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > I've read in -chat that the Softupdate code had a relatively severe > license for a while, but I don't know if that was built into the > original license, or handled by a scheduled license change. The latter. The softupdates code was released under BSD license after Kirk had gotten his ROI. Before that, it had a license which included the following text: Redistributions in any form must be accompanied by information on how to obtain complete source code for any accompanying software that uses the this software. This source code must either be included in the distribution or be available for no more than the cost of distribution plus a nominal fee, and must be freely redistributable under reasonable conditions. For an executable file, complete source code means the source code for all modules it contains. It does not mean source code for modules or files that typically accompany the operating system on which the executable file runs, e.g., standard library modules or system header files. Basically the GPL without the viral bit. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 19:05:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5892737B4BF for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 19:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seed.net.tw (sn14.seed.net.tw [139.175.54.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED9643F85 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 19:05:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from leafy@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) Received: from [203.73.163.100] (port=49586 helo=chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) by seed.net.tw with esmtp (Seednet 4.14:2) id 19CVLj-00087H-QP for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 05 May 2003 10:05:03 +0800 Received: from chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (nobody@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h45251DX034357 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 10:05:02 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from leafy@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) Received: (from leafy@localhost) by chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h45250vm034340 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 5 May 2003 10:05:00 +0800 (CST) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:05:00 +0800 From: leafy To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030505020500.GA32894@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: UNIX Hater's online X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 02:05:06 -0000 Someone might already know, but still intersting to those who don't, The UNIX Haters is online at: http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/unix-haters.html Jiawei Ye -- "Without the userland, the kernel is useless." --inspired by The Tao of Programming From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 20:22:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A996A37B401 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 20:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from net.wau.nl (NET.WAU.NL [137.224.10.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5BB843FA3 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 20:22:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from FST777@phreaker.net) Received: from asser079.athome239.wau.nl (asser079.athome239.wau.nl [137.224.239.79]) by net.WAU.NL (PMDF V5.2-32 #38746) with ESMTP id <0HEE00IEZ9DR7A@net.WAU.NL> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 5 May 2003 05:22:40 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 05:22:31 +0107 (CEST) From: "Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <0HEE00IF09DR7A@net.WAU.NL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Spruce 0.6.5 for X11 w/smtpio 0.7.9 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: UNIX Hater's online X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: FST777@phreaker.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 03:22:45 -0000 Splendid! I've had a serious good time reading the preface of this article. How magnificent to read the best description of M$ Window$ I've ever seen... I wonder why they have replaced some names... More seriously: I really feel sorry for those editors of this book who work at Apple Developement... to be an Unix Hater and develope Darwin and Mac OS X... Some of the info they give might be true. Most is not, or highly irrelevant. There is no good alternative in the scientific enviroment, and for PC-users I believe Unix is the most reliable desktop. Even if I had an (old) Apple I would install a Unix-flavour, although Mac OS was / is a very good OS. But it still hangs sometimes (wich I haven't seen on my FreeBSD-box yet). On Mon, 5 May 2003, leafy wrote: > Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:05:00 +0800 > To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > From: leafy > Subject: UNIX Hater's online > > Someone might already know, but still intersting to those who don't, > The UNIX Haters is online at: > http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/unix-haters.html > > Jiawei Ye > -- > "Without the userland, the kernel is useless." > --inspired by The Tao of Programming From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 20:42:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF40D37B401 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 20:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39AE43F93 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 20:42:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA11303; Sun, 4 May 2003 21:41:45 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030504213212.03a5f140@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 21:34:54 -0600 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 03:42:13 -0000 At 09:16 PM 5/3/2003, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: >Has anyone heard of an open source license where new code based on it can >be kept proprietary for 24 months? Jeremy, you're misusing the word "proprietary" in the same way that Stallman does. Also, what if market conditions make it impossible to recoup one's investment in 24 months, or you decided to sell your business a year later? It could turn into a "time bomb license." If you want to give something away, give it away. If you cannot afford to give something you own away, there's no shame in keeping it. Simple as that. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 23:39:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35C637B401 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 23:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19E4B43F93 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 23:39:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0107.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.107] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19CZdi-0003l9-00; Sun, 04 May 2003 23:39:55 -0700 Message-ID: <3EB606EC.E945C205@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 23:38:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030504213212.03a5f140@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4c09943fa23b8f1c5a40024b4e6ff652f3ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 06:39:59 -0000 Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:16 PM 5/3/2003, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > >Has anyone heard of an open source license where new code based on it can > >be kept proprietary for 24 months? > > Jeremy, you're misusing the word "proprietary" in the same way that > Stallman does. Also, what if market conditions make it impossible > to recoup one's investment in 24 months, That's easy to answer: get a patent, and you have another 18 years on top of that. 8-|. Frankly, if you can't recoup your R&D investment in 24 months, I have to not only wonder how you got funding to make that investment in the first place, I have to wonder at the value you are expecting to realize in the first place. > or you decided to sell your business a year later? It could > turn into a "time bomb license." It *is* a "time bomb license". So are patents, so is copyright; if you are legitimately arguing about anything here, it's the length of the fuse. > If you want to give something away, give it away. If you cannot afford > to give something you own away, there's no shame in keeping it. Simple > as that. That's true. But it's pretty clear the original poster *does* want to give it away, after an amortization period. FWIW: any time you buy software, or even a laptop, the IRS says it depreciates to a value of $0 in as little as 3 years (that's the period of time over which you are permitted to depreciate such things). So if you spend 10 years writing something, and then want to amortize R&D costs over a standard depreciation schedule for "like artifacts", well, you've wasted 7 years. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 5 07:23:51 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D244C37B401 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 07:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5C0543F75 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 07:23:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15099; Mon, 5 May 2003 08:23:43 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030505082225.03cc5ec0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 08:23:33 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <3EB606EC.E945C205@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030504213212.03a5f140@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 14:23:52 -0000 At 12:38 AM 5/5/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: >Frankly, if you can't recoup your R&D investment in 24 months, >I have to not only wonder how you got funding to make that >investment in the first place, Maybe you were engaging in that rarity of rarities nowadays: long term thinking. Or simply making more than a trivial innovation. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 5 10:01:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A615237B401 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 10:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-233-57-131.client.attbi.com [12.233.57.131]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1126343FBF for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 10:01:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h45H1LdN007999; Mon, 5 May 2003 10:01:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h45H1LTV007998; Mon, 5 May 2003 10:01:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:01:21 -0700 From: David Schultz To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Message-ID: <20030505170121.GA7950@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , chat@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:01:26 -0000 On Sat, May 03, 2003, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > Has anyone heard of an open source license where new code based on it can > be kept proprietary for 24 months? > > Then after the 24 months that code becomes part of the public code base. The easiest way to do this is to attach a restrictive license or no license to your code for the first 24 months, then release it under a less restrictive license such as the BSD license. For most purposes, you don't need an uber-license that covers the terms both before and after the 24-month period. It's your code, so you can change the distribution terms as you see fit (aside from being able to revoke privileges granted by an earlier license.) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 5 20:39:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E2F37B401 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 20:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B99F43F85 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 20:39:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0018.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.18] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19CtIz-00050a-00; Mon, 05 May 2003 20:39:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3EB72E3B.1A77D437@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:38:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030504213212.03a5f140@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030505082225.03cc5ec0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a45375dffaf9e9e658793afdf65ffe3ee5a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 03:39:59 -0000 Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:38 AM 5/5/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > >Frankly, if you can't recoup your R&D investment in 24 months, > >I have to not only wonder how you got funding to make that > >investment in the first place, > > Maybe you were engaging in that rarity of rarities nowadays: > long term thinking. Then don't disclose, or make sure you have a patent to protect against clean room reverse engineering. That's what the drug companies have to do. On the other hand, the drug companies have the FDA to deal with, so they need more time on the clock to recoup. Plus, they are never interested in really curing anything, since someone with, say, AIDS, or high blood pressure, or diabetes, etc., who needs long term treatment with your drug, is worth a heck of a lot more long term revenue if you treat them instead of curing them. > Or simply making more than a trivial innovation. Name 5 ones in the last 20 years that have benefitted from having their R&D costs amortized over a period of more than 2 years (i.e. did not simply turn into revenue production in that time). People seem to forget the real purpose of all IP law is "To promote progress in the sciences and useful arts". -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 5 20:44:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A5A537B401 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 20:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13FB643F93 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 20:44:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41])h463iUVS021871; Tue, 6 May 2003 13:44:34 +1000 (EST) From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 13:44:30 +1000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030504213212.03a5f140@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030505082225.03cc5ec0@localhost> <3EB72E3B.1A77D437@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3EB72E3B.1A77D437@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305061344.30358.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 03:44:37 -0000 On Tue, 6 May 2003 01:38 pm, Terry Lambert wrote: > who needs long term treatment with your drug, > is worth a heck of a lot more long term revenue if you treat them > instead of curing them. That is true, but if you are the researcher working for the drug company, your motivation is not to make money for your company, you want to be the person that cured aids (no one remembers the person who helped temporarily alieve something) - jacob Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 5 20:52:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D281637B401; Mon, 5 May 2003 20:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C53B43FB1; Mon, 5 May 2003 20:52:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0018.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.18] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19CtVE-0006Na-00; Mon, 05 May 2003 20:52:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3EB73128.B7FBCF5A@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:51:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz References: <20030505170121.GA7950@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4ffba6897e8abd779d03234e628fd3091667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 03:52:33 -0000 David Schultz wrote: > > Then after the 24 months that code becomes part of the public code base. > > The easiest way to do this is to attach a restrictive license or > no license to your code for the first 24 months, then release it > under a less restrictive license such as the BSD license. For > most purposes, you don't need an uber-license that covers the > terms both before and after the 24-month period. It's your code, > so you can change the distribution terms as you see fit (aside > from being able to revoke privileges granted by an earlier > license.) Actually, without an exchange of consideration, the license you are using is not a contract anyway, so it is always revokable, unless someone pays you money for a source tape or something. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 5 21:59:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18C037B401 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 21:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CDF643FBD for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 21:59:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0018.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.18] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19CuXY-0001Rf-00; Mon, 05 May 2003 21:58:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3EB740B8.DF5EE5A6@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 21:57:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JacobRhoden References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030504213212.03a5f140@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030505082225.03cc5ec0@localhost> <3EB72E3B.1A77D437@mindspring.com> <200305061344.30358.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a40e9e0745e88b2f5ec0a7afc69acbe177350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 04:59:07 -0000 JacobRhoden wrote: > On Tue, 6 May 2003 01:38 pm, Terry Lambert wrote: > > who needs long term treatment with your drug, > > is worth a heck of a lot more long term revenue if you treat them > > instead of curing them. > > That is true, but if you are the researcher working for the drug company, your > motivation is not to make money for your company, you want to be the person > that cured aids (no one remembers the person who helped temporarily alieve > something) So there's a discrepancy between what's being funded and what the researcher wants to have been funded... I don't see the issue... Theo de Raadt might, though, given his recent DARPA funding issue. Have to wonder if the researchers who wanted something else to be funded have had their own funding issues, or if they've just taken their bosses money. 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 02:32:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2590A37B401 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 02:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 927D743F93 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 02:32:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEB313D29; Tue, 6 May 2003 05:31:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: JacobRhoden Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 05:31:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3EB748CF.22303.3C4E25F6@localhost> Priority: normal References: <3EB72E3B.1A77D437@mindspring.com> In-reply-to: <200305061344.30358.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 09:32:01 -0000 On 6 May 2003 at 13:44, JacobRhoden wrote: > That is true, but if you are the researcher working for the drug > company, your motivation is not to make money for your company, you > want to be the person that cured aids (no one remembers the person who > helped temporarily alieve something) Anyone who doesn't know of Banting and Best is either not Canadian or not diabetic. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 06:55:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5960837B401 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 06:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB5AE43F85 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 06:55:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h46DtJtS095108; Tue, 6 May 2003 09:55:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3EB748CF.22303.3C4E25F6@localhost> References: <3EB72E3B.1A77D437@mindspring.com> <3EB748CF.22303.3C4E25F6@localhost> Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:53:35 +0200 To: "Dan Langille" From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: JacobRhoden Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 13:55:26 -0000 At 5:31 AM -0400 2003/05/06, Dan Langille wrote: > Anyone who doesn't know of Banting and Best is either not Canadian or > not diabetic. I am not Canadian, but I am a mild diabetic. I've never heard of them. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 08:30:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B4C37B407 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 08:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [193.197.184.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F116F43FB1 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 08:30:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with gbsmtp id 19D4P0-0005j7-01; Tue, 06 May 2003 17:30:46 +0200 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h46EWF28099962 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 16:32:15 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.9/8.12.8/Submit) id h46EWFfF099944 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 May 2003 16:32:15 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:32:13 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <200304291520.41253.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030430130901.M56348@codersluts.net> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need help buying American lipstick X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 15:30:54 -0000 sektie wrote: > Go figure that everyone has a comment, but no one offers to help. Well, I got one offer of assistance. I hope that works out. > Then again, what guy wants to be seen buying a case of lipstick > from his local Wal-Mart? I didn't think that this is such a cultural taboo in the US. I guess I'm losing my touch with American culture. Besides, I expect there are at least a few women on this mailing list. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 08:44:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE87237B401 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 08:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-86.apple.com [17.250.248.86]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5CF743F3F for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 08:44:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h46Fib0x019298 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 08:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HEH2ED00.86Y; Tue, 6 May 2003 08:44:37 -0700 Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 11:44:52 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need help buying American lipstick X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 15:44:40 -0000 On Tuesday, May 6, 2003, at 10:32 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > sektie wrote: > >> Go figure that everyone has a comment, but no one offers to help. > > Well, I got one offer of assistance. I hope that works out. > Sounds like a bunch of programmers and computer geeks discussing something...hmmmm >> Then again, what guy wants to be seen buying a case of lipstick >> from his local Wal-Mart? > > I didn't think that this is such a cultural taboo in the US. I > guess I'm losing my touch with American culture. Besides, I expect > there are at least a few women on this mailing list. > > The US still has some issues in regards to things like this. Recently a high ranking republican made some comments that could be construed as very anti-gay (I think they were) and has made them in the past. The gist was he equated homosexuality with incest, polygamy and bestiality iirc. Now I know a man wearing lipstick isn't necessarily gay, I was using that to illustrate a point. The US is very confused when it deals with this stuff, you have views ranging from rabid anti-whatever to very tolerant. The taboo about men wearing make-up is kind of funny in how it works. Actors wear make-up all the time, it just isn't talked about. Double standard I guess. And for the record you can wear whatever you want it doesn't bother me as a taboo, but I still find humor in it..hence my comments. No malice intended, i just thought it would be a good joke.. --Larry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 08:57:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBE3437B401 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 08:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36BD643FAF for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 08:57:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A3C3D28; Tue, 6 May 2003 11:57:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Brad Knowles Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 11:57:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3EB7A33E.16439.3DAF6B26@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <3EB748CF.22303.3C4E25F6@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 15:57:52 -0000 On 6 May 2003 at 15:53, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 5:31 AM -0400 2003/05/06, Dan Langille wrote: > > > Anyone who doesn't know of Banting and Best is either not Canadian or > > not diabetic. > > I am not Canadian, but I am a mild diabetic. I've never heard of them. They were the first to isolate insulin. They used dogs. A Google found this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/dm22in.html -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 09:39:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ABDC37B401 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 09:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from joloxbox.joshualokken.com (12-225-249-250.client.attbi.com [12.225.249.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C7643F3F for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 09:39:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joshua@joshualokken.com) Received: from joshualokken.com (joloxbox.joshualokken.com [10.0.0.2]) h46GdaU2089280; Tue, 6 May 2003 09:39:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joshua@joshualokken.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 09:39:36 -0700 From: Joshua Lokken To: naddy@mips.inka.de Message-ID: <20030506163936.GA89030@joloxbox.joshualokken.com> Mail-Followup-To: naddy@mips.inka.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: little to none X-OS: FreeBSD joloxbox.joshualokken.com 4.8-STABLE i386 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need help buying American lipstick X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:39:44 -0000 * Larry Sica (lomion@mac.com) wrote: ==> ==> ==> Sounds like a bunch of programmers and computer geeks discussing ==> something...hmmmm ==> >>Then again, what guy wants to be seen buying a case of lipstick ==> >>from his local Wal-Mart? ==> > ==> >I didn't think that this is such a cultural taboo in the US. I ==> >guess I'm losing my touch with American culture. Besides, I expect ==> >there are at least a few women on this mailing list. ==> [snip] Actors wear make-up all the time, it just isn't ==> talked about. Double standard I guess. I can't help you find the lipstick. I can tell you that your mom and everyone else really ought to take a step back and try to honestly answer the following: Why am I applying this scented plastic to my lips and face? Makeup isn't taboo, on a man or a woman, it's just fake and unnecessary. My $0.02, tell your mom that she's a beautiful woman, and that she doesn't need the damned lipstick. She'll appreciate that more. -- Joshua "You might want to close your windows before the sun hits Diaper Hill." -- Homer Simpson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 10:23:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750A537B401 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 10:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E606143F85 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 10:23:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.dougb.net (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com[12.234.22.23]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc52) with SMTP id <2003050617234205200qicj1e>; Tue, 6 May 2003 17:23:42 +0000 Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 10:23:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030506101600.D4420@znfgre.qbhto.arg> References: Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:23:45 -0000 On Tue, 6 May 2003, Larry Sica wrote: > The US still has some issues in regards to things like this. Recently > a high ranking republican made some comments that could be construed as > very anti-gay (I think they were) and has made them in the past. The > gist was he equated homosexuality with incest, polygamy and bestiality > iirc. That is certainly how it's being REPORTED, but that's not actually what he said: "And if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything." You can find more context here: http://www.ncsfreedom.org/news/bigotedsen.htm The annoying thing about what he said from the standpoint of the gay rights folks is that he's right. It really is a slippery legal slope. (Note, I didn't say that it's a bad thing, I just said he's right.) So, in order to discredit his arguably justifiable concern, the gay rights folks are trying to paint him as a bigot and a homophobe (whatever that is supposed to mean). Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 10:30:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE70737B401; Tue, 6 May 2003 10:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945C643F75; Tue, 6 May 2003 10:30:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030506173021.DIKO311.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Tue, 6 May 2003 18:30:21 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030506182557.07db3820@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:30:14 +0100 To: Doug Barton , Larry Sica From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20030506101600.D4420@znfgre.qbhto.arg> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:30:29 -0000 At 10:23 06/05/2003 -0700, Doug Barton wrote: >"And if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual sex >within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to >polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. >You have the right to anything." > >The annoying thing about what he said from the standpoint of the gay >rights folks is that he's right. It really is a slippery legal slope. Not quite. Bigamy and polygamy aren't questions of sex; they're questions of marriage. As for incest and adultery... personally I don't see where the problem lies with incest, providing that no (genetically impaired) children are born of it, and I can't think of any civilized state where adultery is illegal. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 10:51:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4553D37B401 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 10:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bastet.rfc822.net (bastet.rfc822.net [64.81.113.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CFFB43FB1 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 10:51:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pde@bastet.rfc822.net) Received: by bastet.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6F6DC9F155; Tue, 6 May 2003 12:54:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 12:54:00 -0500 From: Pete Ehlke To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030506175400.GA28671@rfc822.net> References: <20030506101600.D4420@znfgre.qbhto.arg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030506101600.D4420@znfgre.qbhto.arg> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:51:32 -0000 On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 10:23:42AM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > > "And if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual sex > within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to > polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. > You have the right to anything." > > You can find more context here: > http://www.ncsfreedom.org/news/bigotedsen.htm > > The annoying thing about what he said from the standpoint of the gay > rights folks is that he's right. It really is a slippery legal slope. I know I'm going to regret this, but... Please explain the slippery slope that lies between consensual sex among adults who are not married to one another and bigamy and polygamy, which are marriage to multiple partners. I really, really don't follow that one at all. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 12:29:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A2537B404 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 12:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6F9E43F93 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 12:29:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com ([12.234.22.23]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc51) with SMTP id <2003050619292405100jlkide>; Tue, 6 May 2003 19:29:24 +0000 Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 12:29:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030506182557.07db3820@popserver.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <20030506121650.K51947@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030506182557.07db3820@popserver.sfu.ca> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:29:25 -0000 On Tue, 6 May 2003, Colin Percival wrote: > At 10:23 06/05/2003 -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > >"And if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual sex > >within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to > >polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. > >You have the right to anything." > > > >The annoying thing about what he said from the standpoint of the gay > >rights folks is that he's right. It really is a slippery legal slope. > > Not quite. Bigamy and polygamy aren't questions of sex; they're > questions of marriage. They are also crimes in the US, which is the point he's making. Actually, you're supporting my argument, even if you don't realize it. :) If we decide that removing the laws against sodomy is ok because you have the right to do whatever you want behind closed doors, then the laws against the other things he mentioned should be removed too, for the same reason (see below for one important qualification). Then, once those laws are removed, laws against a lot of other consensual crimes should be removed too. That's the slippery slope. Note once again for the record, I'm not commenting on whether or not any of this is a good thing. I'm merely pointing out that there IS a slippery slope argument to be made here, and that Sentator Santorum is being demonized unjustly (and inaccurately). > As for incest and adultery... personally I don't see where the problem > lies with incest, providing that no (genetically impaired) children are > born of it, ... and providing that all parties involved are "adults" in the sense that they are capable of giving informed consent to the acts in question. That of course is an entirely different topic of discussion. > and I can't think of any civilized state where adultery is illegal. The limitations of your knowledge are not my responsibility. :) To take a trivial example, the Uniform Code of Military Justice in the US has penalties for adultery, although I'm not enough of an expert to make the distinction of whether it proclaims it "illegal," which is an oft-misused term. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 15:45:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E823B37B401; Tue, 6 May 2003 15:45:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6682443F3F; Tue, 6 May 2003 15:45:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030506224536.UBSC12018.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Tue, 6 May 2003 23:45:36 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030506233728.07e23528@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:45:35 +0100 To: Doug Barton , Colin Percival From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20030506121650.K51947@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030506182557.07db3820@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030506182557.07db3820@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 22:45:40 -0000 At 12:29 06/05/2003 -0700, Doug Barton wrote: >On Tue, 6 May 2003, Colin Percival wrote: > > Not quite. Bigamy and polygamy aren't questions of sex; they're > > questions of marriage. > >They are also crimes in the US, which is the point he's making. Actually, >you're supporting my argument, even if you don't realize it. :) If we >decide that removing the laws against sodomy is ok because you have the >right to do whatever you want behind closed doors, then the laws against >the other things he mentioned should be removed too, for the same reason >(see below for one important qualification). Bigamy isn't something which goes on behind closed doors. Marriage is a matter of public record; someone who is only a bigamist behind closed doors is no more than an adulterer. >> personally I don't see where the problem > > lies with incest, providing that no (genetically impaired) children are > > born of it, > >... and providing that all parties involved are "adults" in the sense that >they are capable of giving informed consent to the acts in question. That >of course is an entirely different topic of discussion. Of course. Most cases of incest are also cases of rape -- and they should be prosecuted as that, not as incest. > > and I can't think of any civilized state where adultery is illegal. > >The limitations of your knowledge are not my responsibility. :) To take a >trivial example, the Uniform Code of Military Justice in the US has >penalties for adultery, although I'm not enough of an expert to make the >distinction of whether it proclaims it "illegal," which is an oft-misused >term. We evidently have different definitions of "civilized". ;) Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 16:05:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6BE37B401 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 16:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0BDB43F3F for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 16:05:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com ([12.234.22.23]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc52) with SMTP id <2003050623053905200qepohe>; Tue, 6 May 2003 23:05:39 +0000 Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:05:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030506233728.07e23528@popserver.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <20030506155117.L51947@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030506182557.07db3820@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030506182557.07db3820@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030506233728.07e23528@popserver.sfu.ca> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:05:40 -0000 On Tue, 6 May 2003, Colin Percival wrote: > Bigamy isn't something which goes on behind closed doors. Marriage is a > matter of public record; someone who is only a bigamist behind closed doors > is no more than an adulterer. You're still not getting the difference between marriage as a social institution, and polygamy as a crime. Other than that, I agree with most of your post. :) Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 16:50:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9054637B401 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 16:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from joloxbox.joshualokken.com (12-225-249-250.client.attbi.com [12.225.249.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A994743FB1 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 16:50:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joshua@joshualokken.com) Received: from joshualokken.com (joloxbox.joshualokken.com [10.0.0.2]) h46NoPU2099354 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 16:50:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joshua@joshualokken.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:50:25 -0700 From: Joshua Lokken To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030506235025.GA99280@joloxbox.joshualokken.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030505020500.GA32894@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030505020500.GA32894@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: little to none X-OS: FreeBSD joloxbox.joshualokken.com 4.8-STABLE i386 Subject: Re: UNIX Hater's online X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:50:05 -0000 * leafy (leafy@leafy.idv.tw) wrote: ==> Someone might already know, but still intersting to those who don't, ==> The UNIX Haters is online at: ==> http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/unix-haters.html ==> ==> Jiawei Ye ==> -- ==> "Without the userland, the kernel is useless." ==> --inspired by The Tao of Programming It really takes _all_ kinds! -- Joshua "I'm kinda like Jesus, but not in a sacreligious way." -- Homer Simpson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 23:17:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BED637B401; Tue, 6 May 2003 23:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E5743F93; Tue, 6 May 2003 23:17:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0555.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.45] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19DIFL-0004ia-00; Tue, 06 May 2003 23:17:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3EB8A4AF.B6B02E5B@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 23:16:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton References: <20030506121650.K51947@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43a43294cc80eb843f8d4a565e8361d4b2601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 06:17:48 -0000 Doug Barton wrote: > On Tue, 6 May 2003, Colin Percival wrote: > > At 10:23 06/05/2003 -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > > >"And if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual sex > > >within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to > > >polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. > > >You have the right to anything." > > > > > >The annoying thing about what he said from the standpoint of the gay > > >rights folks is that he's right. It really is a slippery legal slope. > > > > Not quite. Bigamy and polygamy aren't questions of sex; they're > > questions of marriage. > > They are also crimes in the US, which is the point he's making. Actually, > you're supporting my argument, even if you don't realize it. :) If we > decide that removing the laws against sodomy is ok because you have the > right to do whatever you want behind closed doors, then the laws against > the other things he mentioned should be removed too, for the same reason > (see below for one important qualification). Then, once those laws are > removed, laws against a lot of other consensual crimes should be removed > too. That's the slippery slope. Actually, the slippery slope, in the limit, is consensual crimes include crimes where the victim voluntarily ceded rights which are held to be inalienable, e.g. selling themselves into slavery willingly in response to a fetish, and then being resold unwillingly. I think the senator used the inflamatory examples he used merely to gain support for his side of the argument by provoking outrage in people who would otherwise support it, but couldn't fault his logic. The most important part of his statement was actually "...the right to anything". > > As for incest and adultery... personally I don't see where the problem > > lies with incest, providing that no (genetically impaired) children are > > born of it, > > ... and providing that all parties involved are "adults" in the sense that > they are capable of giving informed consent to the acts in question. That > of course is an entirely different topic of discussion. Actually, it's back to the alienation of rights, and who has the the responsibility for preventing it; in the limit, we've decided that, if the parents do not do the job, then society has both a right and an obligation to step in and enforce inalienability. > > and I can't think of any civilized state where adultery is illegal. > > The limitations of your knowledge are not my responsibility. :) To take a > trivial example, the Uniform Code of Military Justice in the US has > penalties for adultery, although I'm not enough of an expert to make the > distinction of whether it proclaims it "illegal," which is an oft-misused > term. If you are thinking of the (relatively) recent media feeding frenzy, it was not a courts-marshall over adultery, per se, it was a courts-marshall over disobeying a direct order to not engage in adultery. That's a totally different issue (Article 15). The media made it about adultry, because adultry was more salable to their consumers than the reality. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 23:35:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC91037B439 for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 23:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F3443F3F for ; Tue, 6 May 2003 23:35:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.dougb.net (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com[12.234.22.23]) by attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with SMTP id <2003050706353800200feipke>; Wed, 7 May 2003 06:35:38 +0000 Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 23:35:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Terry Lambert In-Reply-To: <3EB8A4AF.B6B02E5B@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030506232618.K5620@znfgre.qbhto.arg> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030506182557.07db3820@popserver.sfu.ca> <3EB8A4AF.B6B02E5B@mindspring.com> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 06:35:42 -0000 On Tue, 6 May 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: I'm snipping your excellent post, since I basically agree with most of what you said. At least you put the appropriate amount of thought into it. :) > If you are thinking of the (relatively) recent media feeding > frenzy, it was not a courts-marshall over adultery, per se, > it was a courts-marshall over disobeying a direct order to not > engage in adultery. That's a totally different issue (Article > 15). The media made it about adultry, because adultry was more > salable to their consumers than the reality. No, there are actually penalties in the UCMJ for adultery, but like I said, I'm far from an expert. As I understand it, they generally involve stacking poo onto the pile for people who shouldn't have been involved anyway, but I grew up in a navy town, and I used to hear about this kind of thing fairly regularly. I left out all the muslim, and other countries that have this on the books as well, since the original poster specified "civilized." Doug (yes, it's a joke... well, mostly) -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 7 00:49:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF7037B401; Wed, 7 May 2003 00:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EFBD43FAF; Wed, 7 May 2003 00:49:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0555.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.45] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19DJg0-0002xU-00; Wed, 07 May 2003 00:49:20 -0700 Message-ID: <3EB8B9F1.F62CBFE6@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 00:46:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030506182557.07db3820@popserver.sfu.ca> <3EB8A4AF.B6B02E5B@mindspring.com> <20030506232618.K5620@znfgre.qbhto.arg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4d12a986ba3954cbb1efed4b9b47c0844666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 07:49:22 -0000 Doug Barton wrote: > On Tue, 6 May 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > > If you are thinking of the (relatively) recent media feeding > > frenzy, it was not a courts-marshall over adultery, per se, > > it was a courts-marshall over disobeying a direct order to not > > engage in adultery. That's a totally different issue (Article > > 15). The media made it about adultry, because adultry was more > > salable to their consumers than the reality. > > No, there are actually penalties in the UCMJ for adultery, but like I > said, I'm far from an expert. As I understand it, they generally involve > stacking poo onto the pile for people who shouldn't have been involved > anyway, but I grew up in a navy town, and I used to hear about this kind > of thing fairly regularly. I understand that; it was just if you had that particular case in mind. I rather imagine that; just as in the civilian justice systems in the various states, you could argue against such charges on the basis of "selective enforcement". I'm waiting for someone to win a state murder conviction, lose a federal civil rights conviction for the same crime, fight it under double jeoparday, and win. Then I will be happy about "stacking poo" no longer being possible. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 7 08:22:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AAEF37B401; Wed, 7 May 2003 08:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C8443FCB; Wed, 7 May 2003 08:22:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by attbi.com (sccrmhc03) with ESMTP id <2003050715222600300d2d0se>; Wed, 7 May 2003 15:22:26 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h47FOsAc007226; Wed, 7 May 2003 08:24:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h47FOm9a007225; Wed, 7 May 2003 08:24:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Terry Lambert References: <20030505170121.GA7950@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3EB73128.B7FBCF5A@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 07 May 2003 08:24:48 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3EB73128.B7FBCF5A@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: David Schultz cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 15:22:30 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > Actually, without an exchange of consideration, the license you > are using is not a contract anyway, so it is always revokable, > unless someone pays you money for a source tape or something. I got this off some lawyer's web site: More and more states are changing their laws to eliminate consideration as a prerequisite to a valid contract thus contributing to the uniformity of law. And I've read that the revocation is dependent upon the licensor first restoring the licensee to his state before having accepted the license, though I'm sure that that is a very fuzzy and debatable issue. As examples, you have an implied license to walk across my property, but I can withdraw that license at any time, but if I've *given* you license to build and operate a store on my property, I can't withdraw that license without first buying the store for a reasonable price. With software, it would probably be a mistake to try revoking a license after the software has been incorporated in a derivative. Someone has said that the licensee's agreement not to sue the licensor (a part of all known software licenses) is a significant consideration, but a convincing argument for that was not supplied. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 7 11:04:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF7E237B401 for ; Wed, 7 May 2003 11:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15FAC43F85 for ; Wed, 7 May 2003 11:04:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19DTGy-00028z-00; Wed, 07 May 2003 11:04:08 -0700 Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:04:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: handwriting and tablets X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:04:17 -0000 I take lots of hand-written notes. I want to try to use a input tablet and a stylus to save paper -- and to get my notes in files instead. Any suggestions of hardware (and drivers or configs)? Also, any suggestions on what software to also use, like Lamerpad, wayV, libstroke, or xscribble? I am hoping that I can just write just like it was a full-sheet of paper, so I don't have to move the stylus back to beginning of line until I have written several words. Please share your experiences with inputing (in X11) by handwriting on a tablet. Also, I have hundreds of pages of handwritten journals (and other notes) since the early 1980s that I should save to disk. Please share your suggestions and experiences with digitizing handwriting. Will I save time (versus retyping)? Any forums or websites that I should research this further? Thanks, Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 7 11:18:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 472AF37B401 for ; Wed, 7 May 2003 11:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B81F43FBF for ; Wed, 7 May 2003 11:18:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h47IIW6U080054; Wed, 7 May 2003 21:18:32 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)h47IIVxq080051; Wed, 7 May 2003 21:18:32 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:18:31 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Pete Ehlke In-Reply-To: <20030506175400.GA28671@rfc822.net> Message-ID: <20030507211528.M40030-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:18:35 -0000 On Tue, 6 May 2003, Pete Ehlke wrote: > On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 10:23:42AM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > > > > "And if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual sex > > within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to > > polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. > > You have the right to anything." > > > > You can find more context here: > > http://www.ncsfreedom.org/news/bigotedsen.htm > > > > The annoying thing about what he said from the standpoint of the gay > > rights folks is that he's right. It really is a slippery legal slope. > > I know I'm going to regret this, but... > > Please explain the slippery slope that lies between consensual sex among > adults who are not married to one another and bigamy and polygamy, > which are marriage to multiple partners. I really, really don't follow > that one at all. > This would mean you first have to explain why bi- or polygamy are or should be illegal. Its even trickier in the US, where 'unmarried cohabitation' is still a crime in many states... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 7 11:22:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C61737B401; Wed, 7 May 2003 11:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F85543FBD; Wed, 7 May 2003 11:22:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h47IMA6U080107; Wed, 7 May 2003 21:22:10 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)h47ILZ0g080097; Wed, 7 May 2003 21:22:10 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:21:35 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030506233728.07e23528@popserver.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <20030507211948.Y40030-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Doug Barton cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:22:12 -0000 On Tue, 6 May 2003, Colin Percival wrote: > At 12:29 06/05/2003 -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > >On Tue, 6 May 2003, Colin Percival wrote: > > > Not quite. Bigamy and polygamy aren't questions of sex; they're > > > questions of marriage. > > > >They are also crimes in the US, which is the point he's making. Actually, > >you're supporting my argument, even if you don't realize it. :) If we > >decide that removing the laws against sodomy is ok because you have the > >right to do whatever you want behind closed doors, then the laws against > >the other things he mentioned should be removed too, for the same reason > >(see below for one important qualification). > > Bigamy isn't something which goes on behind closed doors. Marriage is a > matter of public record; someone who is only a bigamist behind closed doors > is no more than an adulterer. > No, he need not be. He might be a polyamorist. After all, its not adultry if the other half of the marriage knows and agrees to it, unless you take some odd defintion of adultry. > > Colin Percival > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 7 11:52:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F5937B401 for ; Wed, 7 May 2003 11:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from joloxbox.joshualokken.com (12-225-249-250.client.attbi.com [12.225.249.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9222F43F75 for ; Wed, 7 May 2003 11:52:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joshua@joshualokken.com) Received: from joshualokken.com (joloxbox.joshualokken.com [10.0.0.2]) h47IpRU2016402; Wed, 7 May 2003 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joshua@joshualokken.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:51:27 -0700 From: Joshua Lokken To: sektie Message-ID: <20030507185127.GA16276@joloxbox.joshualokken.com> References: <20030506163936.GA89030@joloxbox.joshualokken.com> <20030507140028.M7854@codersluts.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030507140028.M7854@codersluts.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: little to none X-OS: FreeBSD joloxbox.joshualokken.com 4.8-STABLE i386 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need help buying American lipstick X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:52:56 -0000 * sektie (sektie@codersluts.net) wrote: ==> > I can't help you find the lipstick. I can tell you that your mom ==> > and everyone else really ought to take a step back and try to ==> > honestly answer the following: ==> > ==> > Why am I applying this scented plastic to my lips and face? ==> > ==> > Makeup isn't taboo, on a man or a woman, it's just fake and ==> > unnecessary. My $0.02, tell your mom that she's a beautiful woman, ==> > and that she doesn't need the damned lipstick. She'll appreciate ==> > that more. ==> ==> Easy for you to say, you're not a chick. We could get into how this is the ==> image society pushes on us today, but well, that's a bit too deep for me ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Of course it is, doesn't mean you have to buy it. ==> before 10 AM. Personally, I wear makeup maybe once a month. It's a pampering ==> thing. Working in a building full of unix engineers/admins, I don't feel the ==> need to 'pretty myself up'. But that's just me. :) ==> ==> Incidentally, I did look for the lipstick asked for, but I couldn't find it. ==> I'll keep looking when I go to other stores, but have you tried sephora.com? ==> I'm not honestly sure if they carry it; they are fairly high end. You might ==> try it though. ==> ==> ==> Randi Harper ==> ==> sektie@codersluts.net ==> http://perlpimp.codersluts.net/ -- Joshua From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 7 22:21:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D087937B401; Wed, 7 May 2003 22:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186F443F3F; Wed, 7 May 2003 22:21:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0443.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.188] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19DdqI-0006eI-00; Wed, 07 May 2003 22:21:20 -0700 Message-ID: <3EB9E8FC.39A86BA1@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:19:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <20030505170121.GA7950@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4ee948e7bebe36572df60311501eb9f32a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: David Schultz cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 05:21:22 -0000 "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > I got this off some lawyer's web site: > > More and more states are changing their laws to eliminate > consideration as a prerequisite to a valid contract thus > contributing to the uniformity of law. 8-). That's the great thing about lawyers: get two of them in a room, and the only thing they can agree on is to disagree. > And I've read that the revocation is dependent upon the licensor first > restoring the licensee to his state before having accepted the license, > though I'm sure that that is a very fuzzy and debatable issue. Revocation of the Net/2 licenses by UCB, and revocation of the UCSD P-Code system licenses by UCSD are two examples of case law that contradict your "some lawyer's web site". > As > examples, you have an implied license to walk across my property, but I > can withdraw that license at any time, but if I've *given* you license > to build and operate a store on my property, I can't withdraw that > license without first buying the store for a reasonable price. With > software, it would probably be a mistake to try revoking a license > after the software has been incorporated in a derivative. You can't even tell me not to walk across your property, if you haven't prevented me from doing it for some period of time. But it's not a license that prevents you from doing this, it's because I've established an interest through what's called a "prescriptive lien via adverse use". 8-). One good thing about people trying to treat IP as real property is that if they are successful, I'll be able to use their software patents, and if they don't stop me immediately, I'll be able to claim a prescreptive lien through adverse use. > Someone has said that the licensee's agreement not to sue the licensor > (a part of all known software licenses) is a significant consideration, > but a convincing argument for that was not supplied. It's not. The hold harmless is something the licensee would need to do anyway, if they didn't take the software. So it's not like they've given anything to the licensor that they didn't already have. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 7 22:37:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA00137B401; Wed, 7 May 2003 22:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 221B643FDD; Wed, 7 May 2003 22:37:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0443.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.188] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19De61-0000qe-00; Wed, 07 May 2003 22:37:34 -0700 Message-ID: <3EB9ECC9.CAD7B631@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:36:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <20030506121650.K51947@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <3EB8A4AF.B6B02E5B@mindspring.com> <20030507110515.GH11502@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4d6cd02fc4e68a26bc5733f60b796a222350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Doug Barton cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 05:37:43 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > On f, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Actually, the slippery slope, in the limit, is consensual > > crimes include crimes where the victim voluntarily ceded > > rights which are held to be inalienable, e.g. selling > > themselves into slavery willingly in response to a fetish, > > and then being resold unwillingly. > > I'm sorry, I was keeping quiet on this one, but can you give me an example > of a real case of somebody selling themselves into slavery and then being > resold unwillingly? No. Because it would be alienating a right which is inalienable. There are people who pretend at it, though... > A better description of consensual crimes is, in my opinion, one that states > a crime that whilst clearly illegal, the "victim" or participants are > completely at ease with the crime - e.g. drug consumption and possession. Airline pilots. Bus drivers. Surgeons. It's easy to come up with scenarios where such crimes are a matter of public safety. In a consensual crime, all participants must be consenting (hence "consensual"). Probably we should take our definitin from: Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do : The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in Our Free Country Peter McWilliams, Jean Sedillos Mary Book / Prelude Pr ISBN: 0931580587 i.e.: "As an adult, you should be allowed to do with your own person and property whatever you choose, as long as you don't harm the person or property of another". > > I think the senator used the inflamatory examples he used > > merely to gain support for his side of the argument by > > provoking outrage in people who would otherwise support it, > > but couldn't fault his logic. The most important part of > > his statement was actually "...the right to anything". > > Without turning this into yet another anti-US flamefest, US senators are > well known for believing Americans have the right to do anything they want > anyway and don't appear to have a grasp of the differences between rights > and privileges, so I don't see where this guy was really coming from. If you > and your best friend want to put your genitals up each other's bottoms, what > the hell has that got to do with him, me, or anybody else? U.S. Senators are well known for believing Americans should not be permitted to do anything without a license from U.S. Senators or their duly appointed flunkies. Hence the siezure of the U.S. Internstate Highway system by the federal government in 1956, and the ensuing "Driver's License Compact", and the need for a drivers license to drive. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 8 01:27:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B3037B401 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 01:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpsgiken.alpsgiken.gr.jp (www.alpsgiken.gr.jp [210.166.150.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F037743F93 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 01:27:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joel@alpsgiken.alpsgiken.gr.jp) Received: from zz_radiant2 (www1.alpsgiken.gr.jp [61.114.244.165]) by alpsgiken.alpsgiken.gr.jp (8.9.1a/3.7W) with ESMTP id RAA20008 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 17:27:18 +0900 Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 17:32:39 +0900 From: Joel Rees To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1052336006.1895.3.camel@thoreau.sohotech.ca> References: <3EB91010.27860.15329FD@localhost> <1052336006.1895.3.camel@thoreau.sohotech.ca> Message-Id: <20030508171618.B4DB.JOEL@alpsgiken.gr.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.00.11 Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 08:27:23 -0000 I guess this is the reason I don't subscribe to chat@. Who let it leak to questions@? > Heh, is there a question concerning FreeBSD in there somewhere or is > this just a reminder to some of us to start spending more time with the > wife (the other one I mean, not FreeBSD OS - lol)? netBSD, openBSD, freeBSD, and Mac OS X all running on my home network? I guess I better not set it up in the bedroom. 8-| > On Wed, 2003-05-07 at 14:54, boxend@swbell.net wrote: > > Who knows does not matter, adultery is adultery. > > We may accept it as a fact of life today but it's still the same thing. > > > > Etymology: Middle English, alteration of avoutrie, from Middle French, from > > Latin adulterium, from adulter adulterer, back-formation from adulterare > > Date: 15th century > > : voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than > > his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband; > > also : an act of adultery > > Bottom of Form 0 > > > > Snip Snip > > > > > > >No, he need not be. He might be a polyamorist. After all, its not adultry > > >if the other half of the marriage knows and agrees to it, unless you take > > >some odd defintion of adultry. > > > > > > > > Colin Percival > > > > > > > > > -- "Dovie'andi se Tovya Sagain" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 8 03:24:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1811837B401; Thu, 8 May 2003 03:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D7C243FCB; Thu, 8 May 2003 03:24:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19Dia0-0005gk-IC; Thu, 08 May 2003 11:24:48 +0100 Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:24:48 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030508102448.GB35559@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030506121650.K51947@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <3EB8A4AF.B6B02E5B@mindspring.com> <20030507110515.GH11502@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EB9ECC9.CAD7B631@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EB9ECC9.CAD7B631@mindspring.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Doug Barton cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 10:24:54 -0000 On Wed, May 07, 2003 at 10:36:09PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > No. Because it would be alienating a right which is inalienable. > There are people who pretend at it, though... It's only inalienable if you believe that to be the case. If you can be tricked into thinking you now belong to somebody, then it's game over for you. That's how slavery works. > "As an adult, you should be allowed to do with your > own person and property whatever you choose, as long > as you don't harm the person or property of another". Have no quibble with that, except some people don't mind being harmed and therefore you would have to extend the definition for consensual sex to cover various fetishes, particularly bondage, domination and S&M activities. > U.S. Senators are well known for believing Americans should > not be permitted to do anything without a license from U.S. > Senators or their duly appointed flunkies. Hence the siezure > of the U.S. Internstate Highway system by the federal government > in 1956, and the ensuing "Driver's License Compact", and the > need for a drivers license to drive. I was specifically thinking about the right to do anything they want like pollute the rest of the planet and specifically avoid any enviromental legislation that might involve putting up the cost of gas, invade soverign states without provocation, dictate acceptable faith/religion in foreign states, steal anything they want, etc., etc. - in other words act as badly as Britain did in the 19th century causing somewhere close to a 100 years of misery, death, war and general hatred on a world-wide scale. But like I said, I didn't want to turn this into an anti-US flamefest. Instead, let's all just agree that the entire US political system is corrupt and full of people who unwittingly want all US citizens to be condemned to misery. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 8 03:27:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED64D37B401 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 03:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C0B243F85 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 03:27:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19DMuQ-0002yU-Jg; Wed, 07 May 2003 12:16:26 +0100 Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 12:16:26 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Pete Ehlke Message-ID: <20030507111626.GI11502@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030506101600.D4420@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <20030506175400.GA28671@rfc822.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030506175400.GA28671@rfc822.net> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 10:27:17 -0000 On f, Pete Ehlke wrote: > Please explain the slippery slope that lies between consensual sex among > adults who are not married to one another and bigamy and polygamy, > which are marriage to multiple partners. I really, really don't follow > that one at all. I'm a liberal, so maybe not the best person to answer, but I do keep my eye on the right-wing press, and their argument goes something like this: If you base your value of a society based on the morality it embodies, it is important that the moral rules are clearly adhered to. Therefore, if you believe that sex is appropriate in marriage and nowhere else (for moral grounds, typically derived out of religious belief) and you see that society accepts sex between non-married couples, within that society you must assume that there is a morality breakdown taking place. If you have a society that does not value it's own morality, then everything is possible, and those moral barriers that were in place preventing bigamy and polygamy are being erroded and ultimately, they are likely to be deemed acceptable. The argument therefore is that if society accepts sex outside of marriage, then the same society will ultimately accept multiple partners within marriage due to the inevitability of moral decline. This is of course, complete rubbish. In other words, you can spot a right-winger whose opinion on how society should order itself (or be ordered externally) by the fact they use phrases like "it's a slippery slope" or, more commonly in the UK, "it's the thin end of the wedge". If somebody nearby says that in your presence, back away facing them, slowly towards the door and if need-be, uttering favourable statements about Republicans and guns. If you are in the UK the right winger won't understand references to republicans and will think you want to kill the Queen, so instead talk about the Queen Mum and that "wonderful Baroness Thatcher". -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 8 03:36:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C702037B401; Thu, 8 May 2003 03:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA3D43FBF; Thu, 8 May 2003 03:36:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19DMjb-0002PS-6n; Wed, 07 May 2003 12:05:15 +0100 Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 12:05:15 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030507110515.GH11502@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030506121650.K51947@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <3EB8A4AF.B6B02E5B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EB8A4AF.B6B02E5B@mindspring.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Doug Barton cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 10:36:47 -0000 On f, Terry Lambert wrote: > Actually, the slippery slope, in the limit, is consensual > crimes include crimes where the victim voluntarily ceded > rights which are held to be inalienable, e.g. selling > themselves into slavery willingly in response to a fetish, > and then being resold unwillingly. I'm sorry, I was keeping quiet on this one, but can you give me an example of a real case of somebody selling themselves into slavery and then being resold unwillingly? I know New York can be a bit screwed up at times, but surely it's not *this* deranged? :-) A better description of consensual crimes is, in my opinion, one that states a crime that whilst clearly illegal, the "victim" or participants are completely at ease with the crime - e.g. drug consumption and possession. It's illegal in the UK to smoke dope, but it's now so ill-policed that you could walk into a police station with a bong on the go and you wouldn't get arrested. Not only is the smoker consenting (the smoker is considered to be a victim), but now even the police are... > I think the senator used the inflamatory examples he used > merely to gain support for his side of the argument by > provoking outrage in people who would otherwise support it, > but couldn't fault his logic. The most important part of > his statement was actually "...the right to anything". Without turning this into yet another anti-US flamefest, US senators are well known for believing Americans have the right to do anything they want anyway and don't appear to have a grasp of the differences between rights and privileges, so I don't see where this guy was really coming from. If you and your best friend want to put your genitals up each other's bottoms, what the hell has that got to do with him, me, or anybody else? -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 8 07:51:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61BD437B401 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 07:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-89.apple.com [17.250.248.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A97C443FAF for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 07:51:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h48EpcUh024673 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 07:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h48ERpGI013676; Thu, 8 May 2003 07:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:28:09 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: Narvi From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <20030507211528.M40030-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Message-Id: <4AC876C5-8161-11D7-86C4-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: Pete Ehlke cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 14:51:39 -0000 On Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 02:18 PM, Narvi wrote: > > On Tue, 6 May 2003, Pete Ehlke wrote: > >> On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 10:23:42AM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: >>> >>> "And if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual >>> sex >>> within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the >>> right to >>> polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to >>> adultery. >>> You have the right to anything." >>> >>> You can find more context here: >>> http://www.ncsfreedom.org/news/bigotedsen.htm >>> >>> The annoying thing about what he said from the standpoint of the gay >>> rights folks is that he's right. It really is a slippery legal slope. >> >> I know I'm going to regret this, but... >> >> Please explain the slippery slope that lies between consensual sex >> among >> adults who are not married to one another and bigamy and polygamy, >> which are marriage to multiple partners. I really, really don't follow >> that one at all. >> > > This would mean you first have to explain why bi- or polygamy are > or should be illegal. Its even trickier in the US, where 'unmarried > cohabitation' is still a crime in many states... > Well it comes down to, i think, legal and economic issues. From a taxation issue i can see it, imagine a guy claiming 3 wives and 2 kids from each as exemptions. Or dealing with the implications of the whole family breaking up from a legal, economic and social standpoint. I for one would not want to be married to more than one woman, I don't think I would survive it ;). Also there was the fact that a woman could not have multiple husbands, so I guess it becomes an equality issue as well? --Larry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 8 10:54:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3AFF37B401; Thu, 8 May 2003 10:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30A743F75; Thu, 8 May 2003 10:54:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by attbi.com (sccrmhc03) with ESMTP id <2003050817545200300jjq85e>; Thu, 8 May 2003 17:54:52 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h48Hv2Ac026375; Thu, 8 May 2003 10:57:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h48HupaZ026374; Thu, 8 May 2003 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Terry Lambert References: <20030505170121.GA7950@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3EB73128.B7FBCF5A@mindspring.com> <3EB9E8FC.39A86BA1@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 08 May 2003 10:56:51 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3EB9E8FC.39A86BA1@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <454r45l3to.r45@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 45 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: David Schultz Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 17:54:55 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > Revocation of the Net/2 licenses by UCB, and revocation of > the UCSD P-Code system licenses by UCSD are two examples of > case law that contradict your "some lawyer's web site". More likely, they're really just two examples of licensees not wanting to pay enough to defend their rights. Examples to be learned from. > You can't even tell me not to walk across your property, if > you haven't prevented me from doing it for some period of > time. But it's not a license that prevents you from doing > this, it's because I've established an interest through what's > called a "prescriptive lien via adverse use". 8-). I'll use your approach to argument here. Your first sentence is wrong because I can't have prevented you if you've never tried. Your second sentence is wrong in its implication (that what I said was wrong) because I never said that the license prevents me from withdrawing permission; I said that law prevents you from withdrawing license in a certain case, which your case has nothing to do with. > One good thing about people trying to treat IP as real property Of course, real property is just a term with many meanings, usually just referencing a set of intangible legal rights which attach to something physical, which patent and copyrights utlimately do too. > is that if they are successful, I'll be able to use their > software patents, and if they don't stop me immediately, I'll > be able to claim a prescreptive lien through adverse use. You'll be allowed to do such things when the law allows you to, regardless of anyone's understanding of what real property is or what is considered to be real property. Such terms are too fuzzy for words. > It's not. The hold harmless is something the licensee would > need to do anyway, if they didn't take the software. So it's > not like they've given anything to the licensor that they > didn't already have. That's the silly argument I've heard in a long time. (Only someone as clever as you could come up with such a thing.) The two hold harmlesses have very different values, as I'm sure the licensor's insurance company would agree -- the difference in value being the consideration. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 8 13:23:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C4B37B401 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 13:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D9B543F75 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 13:23:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with ESMTP id <2003050820235200100rk1pue>; Thu, 8 May 2003 20:23:52 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h48KQDAc028180; Thu, 8 May 2003 13:26:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h48KQ7IY028179; Thu, 8 May 2003 13:26:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: "Jeremy C. Reed" References: From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 08 May 2003 13:26:07 -0700 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: handwriting and tablets X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 20:23:54 -0000 "Jeremy C. Reed" writes: > Any suggestions of hardware (and drivers or configs)? Here's some old links, but a google for "(pen|tablet) & (Linux|FreeBSD)" would probably give better:
  • Wacom drawing tablets Some have some Linux support.
  • From Usenet: I got my Wacom PenPartner to work by enabling the XInput driver in XFree86. look here for more details. I had to get the Gimp sources and recompile to enable the stylus, but I now have pressure support working.
  • Wacom ArtPad II on XFree86  Good page of tips on configuration, etc. [was here]
  • Wacom Intuos driver page  "information about using Wacom Intuos tablets"; with links to GIMP usage, more.
    • From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 8 20:30:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E2A37B404 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 20:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-89.apple.com [17.250.248.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F244B43F75 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 20:30:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin07-en2 [10.13.10.152]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h493U7Ud029072 for ; Thu, 8 May 2003 20:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h48EL5pm016571; Thu, 8 May 2003 07:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:21:23 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: Narvi From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <20030507211948.Y40030-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Message-Id: <58D9FA9E-8160-11D7-86C4-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: Doug Barton cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 03:30:08 -0000 On Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 02:21 PM, Narvi wrote: > > On Tue, 6 May 2003, Colin Percival wrote: > >> At 12:29 06/05/2003 -0700, Doug Barton wrote: >>> On Tue, 6 May 2003, Colin Percival wrote: >>>> Not quite. Bigamy and polygamy aren't questions of sex; they're >>>> questions of marriage. >>> >>> They are also crimes in the US, which is the point he's making. >>> Actually, >>> you're supporting my argument, even if you don't realize it. :) If we >>> decide that removing the laws against sodomy is ok because you have >>> the >>> right to do whatever you want behind closed doors, then the laws >>> against >>> the other things he mentioned should be removed too, for the same >>> reason >>> (see below for one important qualification). >> >> Bigamy isn't something which goes on behind closed doors. >> Marriage is a >> matter of public record; someone who is only a bigamist behind closed >> doors >> is no more than an adulterer. >> > > No, he need not be. He might be a polyamorist. After all, its not > adultry > if the other half of the marriage knows and agrees to it, unless you > take > some odd defintion of adultry. > It still is adultery, since adultery has nothing to do with the other parties knowledge. In some areas in the USA adultery is illegal. But the thing about it is, the law he is trying to protect does not apply to straight couples engaging in the same act. So his statments taken in context are very homophobic. That combined with the fact that he is using intentionally inflammatory language to drum up support plus his past record of comments makes it all very much anti-gay. --Larry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 8 20:44:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38BDA37B404; Thu, 8 May 2003 20:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD6543F3F; Thu, 8 May 2003 20:44:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0014.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.14] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Dyo9-0005hN-00; Thu, 08 May 2003 20:44:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3EBB23CD.9120F2F2@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 20:43:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <20030506121650.K51947@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <3EB8A4AF.B6B02E5B@mindspring.com> <20030507110515.GH11502@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EB9ECC9.CAD7B631@mindspring.com> <20030508102448.GB35559@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4ddbe210c21d67a5bd9fe3122833b56e393caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Doug Barton cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 03:44:36 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Wed, May 07, 2003 at 10:36:09PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > No. Because it would be alienating a right which is inalienable. > > There are people who pretend at it, though... > > It's only inalienable if you believe that to be the case. No, by definition, inalienable is not a matter of belief, it's a matter of natural law. > If you can be > tricked into thinking you now belong to somebody, then it's game over for > you. That's how slavery works. Not really. Slavery works because the people who are being enslaved aren't willing to die to prevent it, and the people who are willing to die to prevent it aren't sufficiently informed to know the situation exists. Just like political refugees, who would rather flee to another country, and try to get someone else to go and die for the rights they are unwilling to die for themselves. > > "As an adult, you should be allowed to do with your > > own person and property whatever you choose, as long > > as you don't harm the person or property of another". > > Have no quibble with that, except some people don't mind being harmed and > therefore you would have to extend the definition for consensual sex to > cover various fetishes, particularly bondage, domination and S&M activities. The author of the book does extend it that way. He also extends it to drug use, so long as you are sober when you leave your house, or sufficiently sober to pass as sober. > > U.S. Senators are well known for believing Americans should > > not be permitted to do anything without a license from U.S. > > Senators or their duly appointed flunkies. Hence the siezure > > of the U.S. Internstate Highway system by the federal government > > in 1956, and the ensuing "Driver's License Compact", and the > > need for a drivers license to drive. > > I was specifically thinking about the right to do anything they want like > pollute the rest of the planet and specifically avoid any enviromental > legislation You've obviously never been to California. 8-). > that might involve putting up the cost of gas, That's not senators, that's oil companies. They are in the same boat as the music industry is relative to what new technology has done to their business model. Their model is based in the premise of continued market expansion. Most of us want Hydrogen fuel cells, instead of petroleum. > invade soverign states without provocation, I'll give you Nicaragua. But I won't give you Iraq. > dictate acceptable faith/religion in foreign states, I haven't seen anything that could be taken to be that; if you could, please provide concrete examples. If you're talking about not permitting religions requiring human sacrifice, well, I'd have to point to international law on human rights. > steal anything they want, Haven't seen that, either. > etc., etc. - in other words act as badly as Britain did in > the 19th century causing somewhere close to a 100 years of > misery, death, war and general hatred on a world-wide scale. Actually, the whole India/Pakistan issue is a result of the British pulling out. Before they went in, there was constant war, and after they pulled out, the population self-segregated along religious lines. If they had stayed there a while longer, the problems could have been avoided. At the very least, we would not have two neighboring nuclear powers engaged in constant brush-fire warfare. > But like I said, I didn't want to turn this into an anti-US flamefest. Go ahead; I'm sure there are a lot of people willing to defend the U.S. on these lists, who can tell the difference between "The U.S." and the people involved in any example you care to cite. People always talk about "The U.S.", with a capital "T", as if it were one thing, with one viewpoint and one policy, and no internal dissent, and no internal controls, and no hope of being better in the future than it was in the past. Mostly because they don't know U.S. history. > Instead, let's all just agree that the entire US political system > is corrupt and full of people who unwittingly want all US citizens > to be condemned to misery. Let me know when you start your pilot lessons, so I can sic them on you... 8-) 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 9 05:14:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D19E37B401 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 05:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 849DD43F93 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 05:14:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19E6m2-000GD1-JM; Fri, 09 May 2003 13:14:50 +0100 Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:14:50 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Message-ID: <20030509121450.GC52888@iconoplex.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: handwriting and tablets X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 12:14:55 -0000 On Thu, May 08, 2003 at 01:26:07PM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > "Jeremy C. Reed" writes: > > > Any suggestions of hardware (and drivers or configs)? > > Here's some old links, but a google for "(pen|tablet) & (Linux|FreeBSD)" > would probably give better: (puts on flameproof suit) Microsoft are less than two months from winning this one. Their concept of liquid ink and their handwriting recognition has now got so good, it's got to the point where it's almost better than paper for some tasks... I think this is one for a whole new development effort in itself, and unfortunately I suepct X will suck at it. This might be the door through which MS enters the top level corporate sector and slams it shut in everybody else's face. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 9 09:35:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2415337B401 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 09:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2344E43F75 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 09:35:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h49GZ3tS091074; Fri, 9 May 2003 12:35:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030509121450.GC52888@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030509121450.GC52888@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 18:18:28 +0200 To: Paul Robinson From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: handwriting and tablets X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 16:35:21 -0000 At 1:14 PM +0100 2003/05/09, Paul Robinson wrote: > Microsoft are less than two months from winning this one. Their concept of > liquid ink and their handwriting recognition has now got so good, it's got > to the point where it's almost better than paper for some tasks... I think > this is one for a whole new development effort in itself, and unfortunately > I suepct X will suck at it. This might be the door through which MS enters > the top level corporate sector and slams it shut in everybody else's face. Speaking as someone that has used a Newton 130 and a Newton 2100, and seen my wife struggling with Windows XP on her new tablet PC, I can safely say that I don't think Microsoft will ever get to the point where handwriting recognition is useable on these machines. They stripped out so much from the hardware and replaced them with things like winmodems, software NICs, etc... and now they've way underpowered the machine to make it sufficiently portable that it no longer has the ability to do much of anything useful, even when you're just trying to use the keyboard. The handwriting recognition stuff is way worse than the Newton ever was (which was laughed at throughout the industry, at least until Apple finally fixed the recognition algorithms), and it had a much lower powered processor. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 9 12:33:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DFD737B401 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 12:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E094043F75 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 12:33:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp02.mac.com (asmtp02-qfe3 [10.13.10.66]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h49JX8Ud001722 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 12:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) by asmtp02.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HEMWYV00.I8H; Fri, 9 May 2003 12:32:55 -0700 Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 15:33:15 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: Brad Knowles From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <147EFD66-8255-11D7-871E-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: handwriting and tablets X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 19:33:10 -0000 On Friday, May 9, 2003, at 12:18 PM, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:14 PM +0100 2003/05/09, Paul Robinson wrote: > >> Microsoft are less than two months from winning this one. Their >> concept of >> liquid ink and their handwriting recognition has now got so good, >> it's got >> to the point where it's almost better than paper for some tasks... I >> think >> this is one for a whole new development effort in itself, and >> unfortunately >> I suepct X will suck at it. This might be the door through which MS >> enters >> the top level corporate sector and slams it shut in everybody else's >> face. > > Speaking as someone that has used a Newton 130 and a Newton 2100, and > seen my wife struggling with Windows XP on her new tablet PC, I can > safely say that I don't think Microsoft will ever get to the point > where handwriting recognition is useable on these machines. > That is a shame. The newtons were great, very ahead of their time in many respects. I wonder if apple would ever pursue this again... an iPad? heh > They stripped out so much from the hardware and replaced them with > things like winmodems, software NICs, etc... and now they've way > underpowered the machine to make it sufficiently portable that it no > longer has the ability to do much of anything useful, even when you're > just trying to use the keyboard. > Is it really that bad? What are the specs on these machines anyway? I saw one in an airport it looked oogly --Larry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 9 14:05:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3BA37B401 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 14:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB69843F85 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 14:05:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h49L5QtS010015; Fri, 9 May 2003 17:05:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <147EFD66-8255-11D7-871E-000393A335A2@mac.com> References: <147EFD66-8255-11D7-871E-000393A335A2@mac.com> Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 23:02:03 +0200 To: Larry Sica From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Brad Knowles cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: handwriting and tablets X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 21:05:30 -0000 At 3:33 PM -0400 2003/05/09, Larry Sica wrote: > That is a shame. The newtons were great, very ahead of their time in > many respects. Indeed, Apple defined the business. > I wonder if apple would ever pursue this again... > an iPad? Nope. They've already ruled that out. The iPod is starting to take on more PDA functions, but I think they're always going to make a point of intentionally keeping out of that market. > Is it really that bad? What are the specs on these machines anyway? > I saw one in an airport it looked oogly I think the fastest I've seen is an 800MHz Mobile Pentium-III, which just isn't enough to do jack squat with Windows XP, which was intentionally designed to soak up as much CPU power as possible on a 3GHz Pentium IV, and is just dead-dog slow on anything that is not the absolute fastest generation of machines currently available. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 9 16:49:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB80837B401 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 16:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F0343F3F for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 16:49:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h49NnY6U012897; Sat, 10 May 2003 02:49:35 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)h49NnTfX012894; Sat, 10 May 2003 02:49:30 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 02:49:29 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <4AC876C5-8161-11D7-86C4-000393A335A2@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030510024104.N40030-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Pete Ehlke cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 23:49:38 -0000 > > This would mean you first have to explain why bi- or polygamy are > > or should be illegal. Its even trickier in the US, where 'unmarried > > cohabitation' is still a crime in many states... > > > > Well it comes down to, i think, legal and economic issues. From a > taxation issue i can see it, imagine a guy claiming 3 wives and 2 kids > from each as exemptions. Or dealing with the implications of the whole > family breaking up from a legal, economic and social standpoint. I for > one would not want to be married to more than one woman, I don't think > I would survive it ;). > Well, the correct question is 'what and how can the wives claim benefits on'. But its a simple matter of amending the tax code. Where it gets tricky is if any of the wives are intermarried or married to somebody else and you get (possibly long) cycles. > Also there was the fact that a woman could not have multiple husbands, > so I guess it becomes an equality issue as well? > The 'woman could not have multiple husbands' is only true if that situation gets handled separately under clauses banning ployandry, which I don't think is the case. > > --Larry > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 9 22:53:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E3937B401 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 22:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F01CB43FD7 for ; Fri, 9 May 2003 22:53:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0008.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.8] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19ENIk-0003gg-00; Fri, 09 May 2003 22:53:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3EBC939C.FEE9E9D3@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 22:52:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Narvi References: <20030510024104.N40030-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a40c9c9e221565070ff07dbe76c9c41f7a667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Pete Ehlke cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 05:53:58 -0000 Narvi wrote: > > Well it comes down to, i think, legal and economic issues. From a > > taxation issue i can see it, imagine a guy claiming 3 wives and 2 kids > > from each as exemptions. Or dealing with the implications of the whole > > family breaking up from a legal, economic and social standpoint. I for > > one would not want to be married to more than one woman, I don't think > > I would survive it ;). > > Well, the correct question is 'what and how can the wives claim benefits > on'. But its a simple matter of amending the tax code. Where it gets > tricky is if any of the wives are intermarried or married to somebody else > and you get (possibly long) cycles. The government likes families to form Acyclic Directed Graphs. That way, they can compute transitive closure over the tax codes... No Alexander Hamiltonian cycles... -- Terry