From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 03:54:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B0037B401 for ; Mon, 19 May 2003 03:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2D943FA3 for ; Mon, 19 May 2003 03:54:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19HiIC-000NoS-VS; Mon, 19 May 2003 11:54:56 +0100 Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:54:56 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Jordan Hubbard Message-ID: <20030519105456.GE50427@iconoplex.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A modest proposal for better errno values... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 10:54:55 -0000 BEEP BEEP This thread is moving to -chat BEEP BEEP This thread is moving to -chat BEEP BEEP On Tue, May 13, 2003 at 01:57:13AM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Now, before I start here, let me just acknowledge up-front that what > I'm about to raise is prime bike-shed material of the first order. It Well, the guys on the sidelines thought it was funny. From NTK (http://www.ntk.net - tagline "THEY STOLE OUR REVOLUTION. NOW WE'RE STEALING IT BACK." which should be the FreeBSD tagline whenever Linux guys are in the room. We should carry munitions too to deal with ESR) is the following. I should point out the "similar tizzy" they refer to at the top is about the Mozilla/Firebird fiasco which is the previous item in their little e-pamphlet. Readers with long memories may recall Carl Sagan getting into a similar tizzy about an internal Apple project that shared his name - until he threatened to sue. Apple's coders renamed the project's title to "Butthead Astronomer", which strangely failed to mollify him. Perhaps that explains some of the background of the next naming war: Apple asking the FreeBSD hackers to change the #definition of one of their error codes. Apparently, EDOOFUS has "raised eyebrows" at the corporation, and they've refused to accept the merge into Darwin ("a little more in-your-face than ... 'die_you_gravy_sucking_pigdog()'", apparently). Among the suggested replacements in the subsequent bikeshed discussion was EBUTTHEAD, and a note that in an old Apple II incarnation, STUPID stood for "Student Programmer ID". They settled on EDONTPANIC. At least, until the Estate of Douglas Adams puts up a fight. http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=86207+0+current/freebsd-hackers - CORPORATE CENSORSHIP! Put EDOOFUS on bittorrent! http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/current/freebsd-hackers.html - and other Apple titbits I have to say, I think the thread as a whole worked out - the change was made, no bikeshed materialised. I think that's a real shame. I enjoy -hackers and -chat getting a regular mailbombing by people who should know better. (note the tongue firmly placed in side of my cheek...) I suggest that to get this thread really going, we now talk about Douglas Adams' estate challenging the errno value (see above), why having a daemon for a logo offends the church (see -chat since time began), who the hell does Theo think he is (wrong project...) and how the USofA is a jolly nasty place for bullying lots of people into the neo-conservative nightmare (wrong century?) and to get things motoring nicely, I shall begin by asking WHY ISN'T CORE DOING ANYTHING ABOUT ANY OF THIS ???!?!?!? I'm joking... of course... BEEP BEEP This thread has moved to -chat BEEP BEEP This thread has moved to -chat -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 10:32:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA6B637B401; Mon, 19 May 2003 10:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13AE543F3F; Mon, 19 May 2003 10:32:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4JHWeVo073473 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 19 May 2003 13:32:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h4JHWeiS073470; Mon, 19 May 2003 13:32:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 13:32:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200305191732.h4JHWeiS073470@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <200305191716.h4JHGdgN007153@grimreaper.grondar.org> References: <20030519135221.GG28176@sunbay.com> <200305191716.h4JHGdgN007153@grimreaper.grondar.org> X-Spam-Score: -19.8 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: Ruslan Ermilov Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/libexec/rtld-elf rtld.1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:32:45 -0000 < said: > It does mean that, but in a sort of authoritarian sense. "To police > a neighbourhood" meaning to clean up a crime problem. It also does mean that, without any connotations of authority, but this is a relatively insignificant secondary meaning. ``To police a camp'' in primitive camping means to remove all rubbish and completely extinguish any fires, as before leaving a camp site. -GAWollman From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 10:50:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6866D37B401 for ; Mon, 19 May 2003 10:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B296D43F93 for ; Mon, 19 May 2003 10:50:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc53) with ESMTP id <200305191750200530076aoie>; Mon, 19 May 2003 17:50:20 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h4JHpvKc094803 for ; Mon, 19 May 2003 10:51:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h4JHppaT094802; Mon, 19 May 2003 10:51:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 19 May 2003 10:51:51 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 58 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-laden treatise on SCO vs. IBM X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:50:21 -0000 I don't recall seeing the following treatise recommended on -advocacy or -chat yet. I've posted the URL here with my comments, since advocates have convinced me that I don't understand the charter for -advocacy. (Some advocate should write one.) I found the treatise to be very interesting and generally well done. It recounts a good deal of important Unix history, which will be familiar to many here, but I was not bored by seeing it again, amongst the discussion of SCO's alleged perfidy, mendacity, treachery, etc. :) http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html Entitled "OSI Position Paper on the SCO-vs.-IBM Complaint" By Eric Raymond, President, Open Source Initiative I'll tag on, here, a few of my own comments. I had forgotten that: "In 2002, Caldera began trading under the SCO name." It contains a few whoppers: "...the typical complexity of software [...] doubles every eighteen months..." a complaint that SCO slighted by saying he "introduced" Linux to the world, presumably instead of ESR's absurd claim the Linus "invented" it ("in 1991"!). the open-source community is "today's principal source of innovation in software" In his wrap-up, he gives us this copyleftic whopper: "We wrote our Unix and Linux code as a gift and an expression of art, to be enjoyed by our peers and used by others for all licit purposes both non-profit and for-profit." (I dispute the phrase "all licit purposes" as regards the Linux kernel and other "GNU is not Unix" parts of "the Unix tradition".) A couple of minor problems: He says Unix was invented in 1969, Linux in 1991 (as if they were invented within one year.) He inappropriately refers to "Ronald McDonald's restaurants". He is biased toward Linux and away from BSDs, saying: "We in the open-source community (and our allies) are more than competent to carry forward the Unix tradition we founded so many years ago." soon after saying: "The technical leading edge of the Unix tradition had moved elsewhere, notably to Linux." I wish that he'd added to his several off-topic pot-shots, the fact that none of the industry-making "Unix tradition" would have been happened had courts developed their concept of software patents before the birth of Unix. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 12:28:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9D5437B401; Mon, 19 May 2003 12:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-relay.omnis.com (smtp-relay.omnis.com [216.239.128.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D7A43FBD; Mon, 19 May 2003 12:28:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from salty.rapid.stbernard.com (corp-2.ipinc.com [199.245.188.2]) by smtp-relay.omnis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15DE1C626; Mon, 19 May 2003 12:28:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr.com To: chat@FreeBSD.org, Mark Murray , Ruslan Ermilov Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:28:03 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305191716.h4JHGdgN007153@grimreaper.grondar.org> In-Reply-To: <200305191716.h4JHGdgN007153@grimreaper.grondar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305191228.03889.wes@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/libexec/rtld-elf rtld.1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:28:13 -0000 On Monday 19 May 2003 10:16, Mark Murray wrote: > Followups sent to chat@. > > Ruslan Ermilov writes: > > One of the main meanings of the verb "police", according > > to www.m-w.com is "to make clean and put in order", and > > I used it pretty much in this sense (and I thought that > > "style(9) police" means this same). > > It does mean that, but in a sort of authoritarian sense. "To police > a neighbourhood" meaning to clean up a crime problem. > > The word gets used jokingly in other contexts; "That dress is awful! > Call the fashion police! In fact, police your whole wardrobe!". > > In the second sense, "style(9) police" is a bit of a joke. But like > all jokes it gets stale when overused, and in some cases, the > original meaning of the word may be suspected. > > > But if native speakers think differently, I'm fine with it. > > Cool. :-) /me suggests "mdoc(7) janitorial services" instead. /me ducks and runs... -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 20 07:11:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50A8937B401 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 07:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0D8543F93 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 07:11:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sentinel [10.0.2.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4KEBIuB063181; Tue, 20 May 2003 16:11:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) From: Stacy Olivas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:11:07 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305201611.18328.olivas@digiflux.org> cc: bsd-advocacy@daemonnews.org Subject: WarBSD 0.2 released! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:11:25 -0000 =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I'm pleased to announce the release of WarBSD 0.2. =20 This release adds three new tools to the mix, changes the way the system is= =20 booted and also clearly defines the licensing of the various components tha= t=20 make up WarBSD. Visit http://digiflux.org/warbsd/ for more information. I have also setup a mailing list for warbsd. You can subscribe to the list by sending a message to warbsd-request@digiflux.org with "subscribe" in the message body. You will recieve an automated message with further informati= on. Enjoy! =2D -Stacy =2D --=20 =2D ------------------------------------ WarBSD (http://digiflux.org/warbsd/) The BSD Advocacy Project (http://www.bsdadvocacy.org) PGP public key is available from http://digiflux.org/olivas.asc =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+yjeA8CwhYj2/a04RAg+1AJ9glEIE/Vj893dWLR1jWm/bgTbclwCfbClG PMI1KH8Qu1eYWQRnOZ7r+TU=3D =3DzAgO =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 20 11:43:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 693C537B401 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 11:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80EB43FCB for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 11:43:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id BEA2A530E; Tue, 20 May 2003 20:43:03 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Stacy Olivas References: <200305201611.18328.olivas@digiflux.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:43:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200305201611.18328.olivas@digiflux.org> (Stacy Olivas's message of "Tue, 20 May 2003 16:11:07 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: bsd-advocacy@daemonnews.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WarBSD 0.2 released! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:43:08 -0000 Stacy Olivas writes: > I'm pleased to announce the release of WarBSD 0.2. You know, I remember a time not so long ago when the word "war", even when used in connection with computers (or the telco system), was mostly a negative word. That seems to have changed. This may help explain what has been going on in .af and .iq lately... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 20 13:41:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C5CA37B404 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 13:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77BA043F75 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 13:41:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com (quintaped.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.1]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4KKfskx029173; Tue, 20 May 2003 16:41:54 -0400 Received: from snark.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4KKWQ6o030656; Tue, 20 May 2003 16:32:26 -0400 Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h4KKWPoY030654; Tue, 20 May 2003 16:32:25 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 16:32:25 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Subject: Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-laden treatise on SCO vs. IBM X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 20:41:58 -0000 I've been forwarded some mail from the freebsd-chat list. Since I am trying to act as an advocate for the whole open-source community here, and not just Linux, a few comments and responses: Gary Swearingen: > It contains a few whoppers: > > "...the typical complexity of software [...] doubles every eighteen > months..." Alas, this is true. You only think it isn't because you live in Unixland, where we make steady (if not always successful) attenpts to hold down bloat. If you ever take a job coding C++ for a Windows shop you will learn -- painfully -- how bad it is out there. > a complaint that SCO slighted by saying he "introduced" Linux to the > world, presumably instead of ESR's absurd claim the Linus "invented" > it ("in 1991"!). Is there some other year you would propose? > the open-source community is "today's principal source of innovation > in software" I stand by that statement. > In his wrap-up, he gives us this copyleftic whopper: "We wrote our > Unix and Linux code as a gift and an expression of art, to be > enjoyed by our peers and used by others for all licit purposes both > non-profit and for-profit." (I dispute the phrase "all licit > purposes" as regards the Linux kernel and other "GNU is not Unix" > parts of "the Unix tradition".) This supposed "copyleftic whopper" is something I have observed in most of my peers since 1982, long before copyleft was invented. > A couple of minor problems: > He says Unix was invented in 1969, Linux in 1991 (as if they > were invented within one year.) This is within the normal usage of "invention" for technologies with a complex history. > He inappropriately refers to "Ronald McDonald's restaurants". That's been fixed. (Hey, *you* try writing under pressure!) > He is biased toward Linux and away from BSDs, saying: > "We in the open-source community (and our allies) are more than > competent to carry forward the Unix tradition we founded so many > years ago." > soon after saying: > "The technical leading edge of the Unix tradition had moved > elsewhere, notably to Linux." Had I meant "We in the *Linux* community", that's what I would have written. It says "open-source community" specifically to include you guys. Don't be paranoid; you make enemies that way. Remember that I'm writing for *lawyers*, not geeks. Like it or not, "Linux" is the open-source community's big visible brand name. In this context, talking about BSD would be falling off message. It's not that I'm biased against BSD, it's that I know when it's good tactics to ring the "Linux" bell that J. Random Lawyer will recognize and then shut the hell up about the other details. > I wish that he'd added to his several off-topic pot-shots, the fact that > none of the industry-making "Unix tradition" would have been happened > had courts developed their concept of software patents before the birth > of Unix. I specifically *refuse* to do that. We do not want to open up the can of worms that would be involved in proposing wholesale reform of IP law. That would be a great way to get slapped down and lose. -- Eric S. Raymond From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 20 18:32:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB2837B401 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 18:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 475DB43FAF for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 18:32:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by attbi.com (sccrmhc03) with ESMTP id <20030521013225003009dse8e>; Wed, 21 May 2003 01:32:25 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h4L1XkKc018655; Tue, 20 May 2003 18:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h4L1Xdkj018652; Tue, 20 May 2003 18:33:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: esr@thyrsus.com References: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 May 2003 18:33:39 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: Lines: 120 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-laden treatise on SCO vs. IBM X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 01:32:27 -0000 "Eric S. Raymond" writes: > I've been forwarded some mail from the freebsd-chat list. > Since I am trying to act as an advocate for the whole open-source > community here, and not just Linux, a few comments and responses: First let me say that I was sorry, after posting my typically-critical comments, that I had not commented on more of the good things about the treatise, beyond recommending it as interesting. It covered a wealth of issues and did a great job doing it, on whole. Even good grammar and spelling -- a rare thing. It'll be a good reference for a long time, despite it's topical main subject. While I stopped using Linux two years ago, I'm still a webmaster for my local LUG and would gladly join Linux users in praising you for your efforts in this important contribution to Linux. As for the BSDs, I suspect that Linux's legal problems will have only secondary effects stemming from the attendant discussions, such as your treatise. > Gary Swearingen: > > It contains a few whoppers: > > a complaint that SCO slighted by saying he "introduced" Linux to the > > world, presumably instead of ESR's absurd claim the Linus "invented" > > it ("in 1991"!). > > Is there some other year you would propose? I would have said "Linus and others, starting his kernel in 1991". It's still being invented, and by many. What mostly bothered me was that in such a document, you should have given SCO's comment the benefit of the ample doubt that it was intended to slight Linus. > > In his wrap-up, he gives us this copyleftic whopper: "We wrote our > > Unix and Linux code as a gift and an expression of art, to be > > enjoyed by our peers and used by others for all licit purposes both > > non-profit and for-profit." (I dispute the phrase "all licit > > purposes" as regards the Linux kernel and other "GNU is not Unix" > > parts of "the Unix tradition".) > > This supposed "copyleftic whopper" is something I have observed in > most of my peers since 1982, long before copyleft was invented. And that was great; but then Stallman came along an convinced too many people to replace "all licit purposes" with "open-source-only purposes", effectively replacing the GIFT of a license to derive with a FEE-LICENSING contract, with payment in the form of a cross-license of the deriver's own source code. What's worse is that y'all apply the same old propaganda about gifts to the old and GNU types of free software, even to the extent of appropriating the good name of non-proprietary (ie, Public Domain) software and applying it to any GPL-compatible software, even that with the strong protections of proprietary derivation rights of the GPL. > > A couple of minor problems: > > He says Unix was invented in 1969, Linux in 1991 (as if they > > were invented within one year.) > > This is within the normal usage of "invention" for technologies with > a complex history. I've been reading technical stuff since about 1966, and it looked strange to me. But then you might have read MORE than I have. > > He inappropriately refers to "Ronald McDonald's restaurants". > > That's been fixed. (Hey, *you* try writing under pressure!) Yeah, I should do that. > > He is biased toward Linux and away from BSDs, saying: > > "We in the open-source community (and our allies) are more than > > competent to carry forward the Unix tradition we founded so many > > years ago." > > soon after saying: > > "The technical leading edge of the Unix tradition had moved > > elsewhere, notably to Linux." > > Had I meant "We in the *Linux* community", that's what I would have > written. It says "open-source community" specifically to include you guys. > Don't be paranoid; you make enemies that way. So I've learned. But I do believe you showed bias in that "notably to Linux" crack, at least there in your discussion of the 1991-95 period. > Remember that I'm writing for *lawyers*, not geeks. Like it or not, > "Linux" is the open-source community's big visible brand name. In > this context, talking about BSD would be falling off message. It's > not that I'm biased against BSD, it's that I know when it's good > tactics to ring the "Linux" bell that J. Random Lawyer will recognize > and then shut the hell up about the other details. Your good tactic harmed the BSDs. We can each judge whether that's worthwhile. Please don't over-estimate the level of offense people have taken when they simply note the offense. > > I wish that he'd added to his several off-topic pot-shots, the fact that > > none of the industry-making "Unix tradition" would have been happened > > had courts developed their concept of software patents before the birth > > of Unix. > > I specifically *refuse* to do that. We do not want to open up the can > of worms that would be involved in proposing wholesale reform of IP law. > That would be a great way to get slapped down and lose. Of course, if the treatise is going to be aimed at courts. But it sure didn't look like it WAS. It seemed way too coversational (?) for that. ("pure nostalgia trip"; "brazen mendacity"; "insult our competence"; "When OSDL spun up"; " is false and insulting. It is also dishonest."; "They know better."; "SCO's 10Ks"; etc.) Even I wouldn't dare include my pot-shot (more of a broadside?) at the courts, if writing for them, but I wouldn't be so "entertaining", either. And if the target is a court, please consider that they are unlikely to share the peculiar misuse of "proprietary" that is rampant in the open source world thanks to RMS and the Hacker's Dictionary. In any case, you've done a lot better job than I ever could or would do. Thanks for doing it as well as you have; it showed LOTS of work. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 20 18:56:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D994237B401 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 18:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84AD943FAF for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 18:56:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sentinel [10.0.2.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h4L1uAuB069593; Wed, 21 May 2003 03:56:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) From: Stacy Olivas To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 03:56:09 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305201611.18328.olivas@digiflux.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305210356.09608.olivas@digiflux.org> cc: bsd-advocacy@daemonnews.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WarBSD 0.2 released! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 01:56:18 -0000 On Tuesday 20 May 2003 8:43 pm, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Stacy Olivas writes: > > I'm pleased to announce the release of WarBSD 0.2. > > You know, I remember a time not so long ago when the word "war", even > when used in connection with computers (or the telco system), was > mostly a negative word. That seems to have changed. This may help > explain what has been going on in .af and .iq lately... > > DES Good point. I guess it has changed depending on how it is used, who is using it and what it is being used for. -Stacy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 20 19:19:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E6537B401 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 19:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monet.psys.org (monet.psys.org [64.81.145.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D541443F3F for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 19:19:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@psys.org) Received: from brian (helo=localhost) by monet.psys.org with local-esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19IJCg-0002Zi-00; Tue, 20 May 2003 21:19:42 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 21:19:42 -0500 (CDT) From: brian@planetshwoop.com X-X-Sender: brian@monet.psys.org To: "Gary W. Swearingen" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: grammar (was Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-laden treatise on SCO vs. IBM) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 02:19:45 -0000 On Tue, 20 May 2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > What's worse is that y'all apply the same old propaganda about gifts to ^^^^^ You commend his grammar and then stick that whammie in there? You, not "y'all". Please. brian -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 20 20:36:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED8B37B407 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 20:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 992D343FAF for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 20:36:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com (quintaped.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.1]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4L3aZkx031146; Tue, 20 May 2003 23:36:35 -0400 Received: from snark.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4L3R26o032212; Tue, 20 May 2003 23:27:02 -0400 Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h4L3R1uG032210; Tue, 20 May 2003 23:27:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:27:01 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Message-ID: <20030521032701.GB32155@thyrsus.com> References: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-laden treatise on SCO vs. IBM X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 03:36:38 -0000 Gary W. Swearingen : > First let me say that I was sorry, after posting my typically-critical > comments, that I had not commented on more of the good things about the > treatise, beyond recommending it as interesting. No offense taken. > > This supposed "copyleftic whopper" is something I have observed in > > most of my peers since 1982, long before copyleft was invented. > > And that was great; but then Stallman came along an convinced too many > people to replace "all licit purposes" with "open-source-only purposes", > effectively replacing the GIFT of a license to derive with a > FEE-LICENSING contract, with payment in the form of a cross-license of > the deriver's own source code. It's fine for us to argue about among ourselves. But from the point of view of any outsider, you're engaging in a theological dispute of *zero* interest. I am therefore ignoring this distinction, very deliberately. > Of course, if the treatise is going to be aimed at courts. But it sure > didn't look like it WAS. It seemed way too coversational (?) for that. > ("pure nostalgia trip"; "brazen mendacity"; "insult our competence"; > "When OSDL spun up"; " is false and insulting. It is also dishonest."; > "They know better."; "SCO's 10Ks"; etc.) Even I wouldn't dare include > my pot-shot (more of a broadside?) at the courts, if writing for them, > but I wouldn't be so "entertaining", either. Which is one way of observing that you're not as skilled a propagandist as I am. Trust me on this. I've had practice :-). Anyway, my wife is a practicing Phildelphia lawyer who went over the text line by line. She told me to be *more* aggressive. > In any case, you've done a lot better job than I ever could or would do. > Thanks for doing it as well as you have; it showed LOTS of work. You're welcome. -- Eric S. Raymond From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 20 21:37:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9745437B401 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 21:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A3343FA3 for ; Tue, 20 May 2003 21:37:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26147; Tue, 20 May 2003 22:37:09 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030520223347.02d03490@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:37:07 -0600 To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-laden treatise on SCO vs. IBM X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 04:37:18 -0000 At 11:51 AM 5/19/2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > In his wrap-up, he gives us this copyleftic whopper: "We wrote our > Unix and Linux code as a gift and an expression of art, to be > enjoyed by our peers and used by others for all licit purposes both > non-profit and for-profit." That really IS a whopper. The GPL ensures that Linux certainly CANNOT be used "for all licit purposes both non-profit and for-profit." And ESR knows it. This demonstrates his hypocrisy and that of the OSI: they refuse to admit that the GPL is destructive and violates their own "Open Source Definition." --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 21 11:29:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A550137B401 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 11:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E029643F75 for ; Wed, 21 May 2003 11:29:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc53) with ESMTP id <2003052118292905300p436pe>; Wed, 21 May 2003 18:29:29 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h4LIUqKc030911; Wed, 21 May 2003 11:30:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h4LIUlZF030910; Wed, 21 May 2003 11:30:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: esr@thyrsus.com References: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> <20030521032701.GB32155@thyrsus.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 21 May 2003 11:30:46 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20030521032701.GB32155@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: <10y910up7t.910@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 56 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-laden treatise on SCO vs. IBM X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:29:31 -0000 "Eric S. Raymond" writes: > It's fine for us to argue about among ourselves. But from the point > of view of any outsider, you're engaging in a theological dispute of > *zero* interest. I am therefore ignoring this distinction, very > deliberately. You could easily fix your few overreaches of GNU propaganda, with no harm to the fact-based logic of your case. What you instinctively aim to do is to slip in claims about Linux which are untrue from the point of view of an outsider (even if the claims seems true to those who've adopted the GNU culture's self-serving language). I'm not engaging in a theological dispute (about copyleftism, presumably); it's an ethical dispute. Copyleft was created specifically to harm closed-source software development through the non-gift-culture restrictions of the GPL, even at the high cost of harming other open-source software. It's a theology I seldom dispute, as it's as valid as Bill Gates' and even better, given the actual gifting of the copyleft right to copy non-derivatives. But it's disingenuous to talk of "Linux code as a gift [...to be...] used by others for all licit purposes both non-profit and for-profit". Especially when you're trying to explain the nature of the Unix tradition. Even when talking to lawyers. Winning a dispute is a poor justification for using their more unsavory tactics; if you must resort to such tactics, you don't deserve to win your case. Honestly! Copyleft propagandists just too-often find that the forum requires them to ingore distinctions and propagandize about "free software" as if it were a "non-proprietary" culture or even a BSD/MIT/X11 culture, when it is predominately a copyleft guild culture, working together to crush it's closed-source competition by the witholding of its proprietary license to derive. It's only after the bait-and-switch occurs, when details must be discussed, that they will admit to the desire to control the use of proprietary rights in code. But I've yet to get one to admit to the fact that their requirement for cross-licensing of the right to distribute derivatives makes it a commercial license contract in essence, let alone in fact. My main beef with copyleftists has always been their propaganda tactics and language. And when I read this (in the berlin-design list) from the father of copyleft, my beef was extended to other tactics: The license for the IDL file cannot stop this in an enforcible way. [...] However, using the GPL on IDL files might have a substantial practical effect even if it isn't legally airtight. It might discourage much proprietary software from being written to talk to your objects, and it might convince many of the people who write programs that use your objects to make their programs free. So the real question is, what result do you want? I hope that YOU will consider more than results to be important. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 22 09:13:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC9937B401 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 09:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp0.adl1.internode.on.net (smtp0.adl1.internode.on.net [203.16.214.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3722543F85 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 09:13:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smckay@internode.on.net) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp788.qld.padsl.internode.on.net [150.101.184.19])h4MGDPMO064586; Fri, 23 May 2003 01:43:25 +0930 (CST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.12.8p1/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4MGDNLR016491; Fri, 23 May 2003 02:13:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200305221613.h4MGDNLR016491@dungeon.home> To: brian@planetshwoop.com References: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: from brian@planetshwoop.com at "Wed, 21 May 2003 02:19:42 +0000" Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 02:13:23 +1000 From: Stephen McKay cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Stephen McKay Subject: Re: grammar (was Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-laden treatise on SCO vs. IBM) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:13:34 -0000 On Wednesday, 21st May 2003, brian@planetshwoop.com wrote: >On Tue, 20 May 2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > >> What's worse is that y'all apply the same old propaganda about gifts to > ^^^^^ > >You commend his grammar and then stick that whammie in there? > >You, not "y'all". Please. No! No! It is merely artistic flair! Once he's established his impeccable grasp of grammar he is permitted to bend it in order to demonstrate his grasp of the vernacular, hence showing he not only knows the Official Grammar, but also a Dialect. It's a solid points scorer. This isn't the same as the 99% of Internet users who believe a valid contraction of "you are" is "your", or the other new percent who know about "you're", but believe it is a possessive pronoun. Salt with :-) as necessary, and enjoy your language! Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 22 09:41:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A78FF37B401 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 09:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp0.adl1.internode.on.net (smtp0.adl1.internode.on.net [203.16.214.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6844643F85 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 09:41:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smckay@internode.on.net) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp788.qld.padsl.internode.on.net [150.101.184.19])h4MGfgMO073414; Fri, 23 May 2003 02:11:42 +0930 (CST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.12.8p1/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4MGffLR016569; Fri, 23 May 2003 02:41:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200305221641.h4MGffLR016569@dungeon.home> To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) References: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> <20030521032701.GB32155@thyrsus.com> <10y910up7t.910@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <10y910up7t.910@localhost.localdomain> from Gary W. Swearingen at "Wed, 21 May 2003 18:30:46 +0000" Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 02:41:41 +1000 From: Stephen McKay cc: esr@thyrsus.com cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Stephen McKay Subject: Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-laden treatise on SCO vs. IBM X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:41:48 -0000 On Wednesday, 21st May 2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >"Eric S. Raymond" writes: > >> It's fine for us to argue about among ourselves. But from the point >> of view of any outsider, you're engaging in a theological dispute of >> *zero* interest. I am therefore ignoring this distinction, very >> deliberately. > >You could easily fix your few overreaches of GNU propaganda, with no >harm to the fact-based logic of your case. What you instinctively aim >to do is to slip in claims about Linux which are untrue from the point >of view of an outsider (even if the claims seems true to those who've >adopted the GNU culture's self-serving language). > >I'm not engaging in a theological dispute... >From where I sit (FreeBSD devotee, occasional Linux user, open/free source convert) this does look very much like a theological dispute. I read Eric's position paper and it looked just fine to me (though on re-checking I find I read one that's about 7 revisions out of date now so I suppose he could have added "I hate BSD" in some dusty corner). I can't see why you are so peeved that while he's defending Linux from the wolves he's not also pushing BSD. I also don't see why he should spend time in a pro-Linux document bagging the GPL. It's Linux being attacked here, and Linux is GPLed. I can understand why some people don't like the GPL, and why some people aren't entirely happy with the GNU philosopy, but this document isn't the place to explore that issue. Wouldn't it be much worse if nobody defended Linux and SCO crushed it? Where would all the "count the angels on a pin head" arguments get you then? Cheers, Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 22 10:29:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C7FF37B401 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 10:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4688E43F85 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 10:29:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Received: from snark.thyrsus.com (quintaped.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.1]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4MHTHkx009790; Thu, 22 May 2003 13:29:17 -0400 Received: from snark.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4MHJHZQ001884; Thu, 22 May 2003 13:19:17 -0400 Received: (from esr@localhost) by snark.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h4MHJHGL001882; Thu, 22 May 2003 13:19:17 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:19:17 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Stephen McKay Message-ID: <20030522171917.GA1876@thyrsus.com> References: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> <20030521032701.GB32155@thyrsus.com> <10y910up7t.910@localhost.localdomain> <200305221641.h4MGffLR016569@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305221641.h4MGffLR016569@dungeon.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-laden treatise on SCO vs. IBM X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:29:19 -0000 Stephen McKay : > I read Eric's position paper and it looked just fine to me (though on > re-checking I find I read one that's about 7 revisions out of date now so > I suppose he could have added "I hate BSD" in some dusty corner). Busted! I did exactly that! Only I spelled it "fnord". (Note for the humor-impaired: That was a *joke*.) -- Eric S. Raymond From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 22 14:26:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42F1F37B407 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 14:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1a-215.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.170.215]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5332843F93 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 14:26:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h4ML100n018618; Thu, 22 May 2003 17:01:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:01:00 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen McKay References: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> <200305221613.h4MGDNLR016491@dungeon.home> In-Reply-To: <200305221613.h4MGDNLR016491@dungeon.home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar (was Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-ladentreatise on SCO vs. IBM) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:26:01 -0000 Stephen McKay wrote: > On Wednesday, 21st May 2003, brian@planetshwoop.com wrote: > > >>On Tue, 20 May 2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >> >> >>>What's worse is that y'all apply the same old propaganda about gifts to >> >> ^^^^^ >> >>You commend his grammar and then stick that whammie in there? >> >>You, not "y'all". Please. > > > No! No! It is merely artistic flair! > > Once he's established his impeccable grasp of grammar he is permitted to > bend it in order to demonstrate his grasp of the vernacular, hence showing > he not only knows the Official Grammar, but also a Dialect. It's a solid > points scorer. > > This isn't the same as the 99% of Internet users who believe a valid > contraction of "you are" is "your", or the other new percent who know > about "you're", but believe it is a possessive pronoun. > > Salt with :-) as necessary, and enjoy your language! Are you talking about the people who don't know the difference between "then" and "than" and think that "sux" is spelled properly? -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 22 14:30:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C495137B401 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 14:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F85643F85 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 14:30:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc51) with ESMTP id <20030522213051051006fmuve>; Thu, 22 May 2003 21:30:51 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h4MLW6Kc050639; Thu, 22 May 2003 14:32:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h4MLVxvX050636; Thu, 22 May 2003 14:32:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Stephen McKay References: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> <20030521032701.GB32155@thyrsus.com> <10y910up7t.910@localhost.localdomain> <200305221641.h4MGffLR016569@dungeon.home> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 22 May 2003 14:31:59 -0700 In-Reply-To: <200305221641.h4MGffLR016569@dungeon.home> Message-ID: <8i7k8iu0q8.k8i@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 43 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-laden treatise on SCO vs. IBM X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:30:55 -0000 I removed ESR from the CC list; I doubt that he even read my last reply. Stephen McKay writes: > >From where I sit (FreeBSD devotee, occasional Linux user, open/free source > convert) this does look very much like a theological dispute. I'll admit to taking advantage of this first (and probably last :) opportunity to converse with ESR, to express some theological things that weren't required to support my main points about unfair statements in ESR's treatise. But there WAS non-theological stuff in there. > I can't see why you are so peeved that while he's defending Linux from the > wolves he's not also pushing BSD. I also don't see why he should spend time > in a pro-Linux document bagging the GPL. You can't see why I'm peeved about that because I'm not. And I agree with your second sentence. > I can understand why some people don't like the GPL, and why some people > aren't entirely happy with the GNU philosopy, but this document isn't the > place to explore that issue. I agree. Nor should it be a place to spread misinformation about it. > Wouldn't it be much worse if nobody defended Linux and SCO crushed it? Yes. And it would be better if people didn't knowingly confuse other people to win an argument too. > Where would all the "count the angels on a pin head" arguments get you > then? To the same place as in the alternative. Responding to such questions was probably as useful as counting angles. P.S. The SCO suits aren't going to have a significant direct impact on Linux, regardless of ESR's treatise. It's value (and harm) lies in its education (and mis-education) of readers in AND AROUND the open source world. And anyone's comments on ESR's treatise will have even less effect on the SCO suits, if that's possible. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 22 15:06:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E067437B401 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 15:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B5E43FB1 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 15:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with ESMTP id <2003052222064900100ruhlte>; Thu, 22 May 2003 22:06:49 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h4MM7sKc051073; Thu, 22 May 2003 15:07:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h4MM7gKs051072; Thu, 22 May 2003 15:07:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Stephen McKay References: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> <200305221613.h4MGDNLR016491@dungeon.home> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 22 May 2003 15:07:42 -0700 In-Reply-To: <200305221613.h4MGDNLR016491@dungeon.home> Message-ID: <2qel2qski9.l2q@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar (was Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-laden treatise on SCO vs. IBM) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 22:06:51 -0000 > >You, not "y'all". Please. > > No! No! It is merely artistic flair! Not "merely", but yeah, I find "you all" too stilted or something. I think that the Southernism should be acceptable in informal writing, to avoid the need to make the sentence longer with extra words that would tend to detract from the point being made. "You" wouldn't have worked because it was ambiguous. The alternative was probably something like "you and your fellow copyleftists". But it seems that the contraction detracts from the point too, in some minds. Hmmmm. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 22 15:53:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3DD037B401 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 15:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B7B43FA3 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 15:53:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h4MMr8S15745; Thu, 22 May 2003 18:53:08 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:53:08 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030522185308.A15738@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Stephen McKay Subject: Re: grammar (was Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-ladentreatise on SCO vs. IBM) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 22:53:15 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > >>You, not "y'all". Please. > > > > > > No! No! It is merely artistic flair! > > > Are you talking about the people who don't know the difference between > "then" and "than" and think that "sux" is spelled properly? Or people for that matter who don't know "its" from "it's" (as in, "It'll be a good reference for a long time, despite it's topical main subject")? I'm no grammar nazi, but I'll admit to amusement when someone talks of good grammar and then trips up in the very next sentence :) Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 22 16:06:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC48437B401 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 16:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1a-215.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.170.215]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E100143F93 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 16:05:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h4MN5w0n018708; Thu, 22 May 2003 19:05:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3ECD57D6.6010400@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:05:58 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20030522185308.A15738@online.fr> In-Reply-To: <20030522185308.A15738@online.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Stephen McKay Subject: Re: grammar (was Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI'sUnix/Linux-history-ladentreatise on SCO vs. IBM) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 23:06:01 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Bill Moran wrote: > >>>>You, not "y'all". Please. >>> >>>No! No! It is merely artistic flair! >> >>Are you talking about the people who don't know the difference between >>"then" and "than" and think that "sux" is spelled properly? > > Or people for that matter who don't know "its" from "it's" (as in, > "It'll be a good reference for a long time, despite it's topical main > subject")? Damn, I didn't even catch that (takes off Grammar-Nazi medal and hands it to Rahul, who deserves it more) -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 22 21:58:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CAA37B401 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 21:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4BC43F93 for ; Thu, 22 May 2003 21:58:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc10p.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.4.25] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19J4dc-0005Lk-00; Thu, 22 May 2003 21:58:40 -0700 Message-ID: <3ECDAA32.CD7D6B44@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:57:22 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen McKay References: <10y910up7t.910@localhost.localdomain> <200305221641.h4MGffLR016569@dungeon.home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4d22cab9b75180219e39774c74ac0cffaa2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: esr@thyrsus.com cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-laden treatise on SCO vs. IBM X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 04:58:49 -0000 Stephen McKay wrote: > Wouldn't it be much worse if nobody defended Linux and SCO crushed it? > Where would all the "count the angels on a pin head" arguments get you > then? It wouldn't matter, just like it doesn't matter. The whole thing is just a massive publicity opportunity for people in both the Linux and SCO camps. If it ever came down to really going to court, the IBM patent counter-suit would crush SCO like a grape. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 23 08:35:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1531037B401 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 08:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (hak.cnd.mcgill.ca [132.216.11.133]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3934443F75 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 08:35:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mat@hak.cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: from hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (localhost.cnd.mcgill.ca [127.0.0.1]) by hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (8.12.3p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h4NFcO6d006375 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 11:38:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mat@hak.cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: (from mat@localhost) by hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (8.12.3p2/8.12.3/Submit) id h4NFcOqM006374 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 23 May 2003 11:38:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:38:24 -0400 From: Mathew Kanner To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030523153824.GA99429@cnd.mcgill.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Organization: I speak for myself, operating in Montreal, CANADA User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.4 required=5.0 tests=USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.53 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.53 (1.174.2.15-2003-03-30-exp) Subject: slashdumb X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:35:37 -0000 www.slashdumb.com -- There are only two things I hate: lactose intolerant societies and cows From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 23 09:43:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6915637B401 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 09:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtph.ha-net.ptd.net (smtph.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CED543F3F for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 09:43:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 4576 invoked by uid 50005); 23 May 2003 16:43:10 -0000 Received: from tms2@mail.ptd.net by smtph.ha-net.ptd.net by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.15 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4265. spamassassin: 2.43. Clear:. Processed in 0.690549 secs); 23 May 2003 16:43:10 -0000 Received: from du217.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.217]) (envelope-sender ) by smtph.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 23 May 2003 16:43:09 -0000 Sender: tms@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3ECE4FA9.81220882@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:43:21 -0400 From: "T.M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20030522185308.A15738@online.fr> <3ECD57D6.6010400@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar (was Re: Fwd:ESR/OSI'sUnix/Linux-history-ladentreatiseon SCO vs. IBM) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:43:12 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > > Damn, I didn't even catch that (takes off Grammar-Nazi medal and hands > it to Rahul, who deserves it more) Wasn't Grammar Abdel Nazi the president Egypt? Or was that someone else? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 23 10:42:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB7C37B401 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 10:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC51D43F75 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 10:42:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27360; Fri, 23 May 2003 11:41:49 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030523113806.03043d00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:38:35 -0600 To: Mathew Kanner , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030523153824.GA99429@cnd.mcgill.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: slashdumb X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 17:42:16 -0000 At 09:38 AM 5/23/2003, Mathew Kanner wrote: > www.slashdumb.com Is there a "slashdumber" to go with it? ;-) --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 23 11:24:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C511137B404 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 11:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plunder.dreamhost.com (plunder.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCBDC43FA3 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 11:24:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (unknown [67.98.154.9]) by plunder.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA44E8625F; Fri, 23 May 2003 11:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:24:26 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: Brett Glass From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030523113806.03043d00@localhost> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: slashdumb X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 18:24:32 -0000 On Friday, May 23, 2003, at 01:38 PM, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:38 AM 5/23/2003, Mathew Kanner wrote: > >> www.slashdumb.com > > Is there a "slashdumber" to go with it? ;-) > yes... www.slashdot.org --Larry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 23 14:50:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8E1337B401 for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 14:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD33E43F3F for ; Fri, 23 May 2003 14:50:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h4NLooj21277; Fri, 23 May 2003 17:50:50 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 17:50:49 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mathew Kanner Message-ID: <20030523175049.A21269@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Mathew Kanner , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030523153824.GA99429@cnd.mcgill.ca> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: slashdumb X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:50:55 -0000 Matthew Kanner wrote: > www.slashdumb.com Well, that's the sneakiest movie-promotion I've seen (did you follow the links?) Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 24 10:59:33 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF3F237B401 for ; Sat, 24 May 2003 10:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (hak.cnd.mcgill.ca [132.216.11.133]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FDB143F75 for ; Sat, 24 May 2003 10:59:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mat@hak.cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: from hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (localhost.cnd.mcgill.ca [127.0.0.1]) by hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (8.12.3p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h4OI2W6d015968; Sat, 24 May 2003 14:02:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mat@hak.cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: (from mat@localhost) by hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (8.12.3p2/8.12.3/Submit) id h4OI2WjP015967; Sat, 24 May 2003 14:02:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 14:02:32 -0400 From: Mathew Kanner To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20030524180232.GB99429@cnd.mcgill.ca> References: <20030523153824.GA99429@cnd.mcgill.ca> <20030523175049.A21269@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030523175049.A21269@online.fr> Organization: I speak for myself, operating in Montreal, CANADA User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-32.5 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.53 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.53 (1.174.2.15-2003-03-30-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: slashdumb X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 17:59:34 -0000 On May 23, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Matthew Kanner wrote: > > www.slashdumb.com > > Well, that's the sneakiest movie-promotion I've seen (did you follow the > links?) Does that flash movie work when you clink on any of the non-ad links? I found the other site first. Speaking of which, I love the "Don't Press This Button". --Mat -- Hats Off