From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 16 06:47:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A06237B409 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (tulip.epweb.co.za [196.14.166.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454B243F75 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:47:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (localhost.epweb.co.za [127.0.0.1]) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5GDlHSs080453 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 15:47:17 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: (from ultraviolet@localhost) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5GDlClW080452 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 15:47:12 +0200 (SAST) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 15:47:12 +0200 From: William Fletcher To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030616134712.GJ64390@tulip.epweb.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8lKUOMLFs7xrer6k" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [ultraviolet@epweb.co.za: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 13:47:36 -0000 --8lKUOMLFs7xrer6k Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Note to self, be careful where you reply to stuff :/=20 ----- Forwarded message from William Fletcher ---= -- > > I hear Anna Nichole Smith is looking for work. >=20 > ... >=20 > I think I'd switch to RedHat if I ever saw her wearing BSD undies. Gag me= =20 > with a spoon. Heres and idea, why don't you pose in BSD undies?=20 --=20 William Fletcher (ultraviolet) http://www.FreeBSD.org/ Uber FreeBSD! IT Administrator, EPWeb networks. irc at irc.epweb.co.za http://www.epweb.co.za/ http://vision.za.net/irc/ Tel: +27 (041) 395 6800 Worship me! :) Fax: +27 (041) 395 6818=09 Support: support@epweb.co.za I got more VD's than McAfee has fixes. ----- End forwarded message ----- --=20 William Fletcher (ultraviolet) http://www.FreeBSD.org/ Uber FreeBSD! IT Administrator, EPWeb networks. irc at irc.epweb.co.za http://www.epweb.co.za/ http://vision.za.net/irc/ Tel: +27 (041) 395 6800 Worship me! :) Fax: +27 (041) 395 6818=09 Support: support@epweb.co.za I got more VD's than McAfee has fixes. --8lKUOMLFs7xrer6k Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+7cpdju3fq0dMPxsRAsWBAKCbLMpJbZEaFMEkFq5fE5SDrlnYbwCcCOvd Ww405vBSCZ3bhb68qPW2uUQ= =w7n0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --8lKUOMLFs7xrer6k-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 16 07:20:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D52A37B401 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 07:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cvg-65-26-145-190.cinci.rr.com [65.26.145.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FDAD43FBF for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 07:20:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mrami@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h5GEM7e3098192; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:22:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost)h5GEM26d098189; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:22:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:22:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: sektie In-Reply-To: <20030614075901.M27909@codersluts.net> Message-ID: <20030616102142.T98156@www.bluecirclesoft.com> References: <20030610075617.GA7256@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> <3EE5BDF9.98246F7B@mindspring.com> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE60470.6030503@potentialtech.com> <20030614075901.M27909@codersluts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:20:35 -0000 On Sat, 14 Jun 2003, sektie wrote: > > I hear Anna Nichole Smith is looking for work. > > ... > > I think I'd switch to RedHat if I ever saw her wearing BSD undies. Gag me > with a spoon. I know I've seen her wearing a red hat... Marc. -- Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) www.bluecirclesoft.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 16 17:01:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2761337B401 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from perlpimp.codersluts.net (adsl-158-79-54.asm.bellsouth.net [68.158.79.54]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2840243F93 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:00:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sektie@codersluts.net) Received: from perlpimp.codersluts.net (localhost.codersluts.net [127.0.0.1]) h5H0xVAa030752; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 19:59:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from sektie@codersluts.net) From: "sektie" To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za, chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 19:59:31 -0500 Message-Id: <20030617005610.M21190@codersluts.net> In-Reply-To: <20030616134443.GI64390@tulip.epweb.co.za> References: <20030610134516.GB26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net> <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610154959.GB48926@over-yonder.net> <3EE60470.6030503@potentialtech.com> <20030614075901.M27909@codersluts.net> <20030616134443.GI64390@tulip.epweb.co.za> X-Mailer: Open WebMail 2.01 20030425 X-OriginatingIP: 192.168.0.9 (sektie) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 00:01:03 -0000 > > > I hear Anna Nichole Smith is looking for work. > > > > ... > > > > I think I'd switch to RedHat if I ever saw her wearing BSD undies. Gag me > > with a spoon. > Heres and idea, why don't you pose in BSD undies? With my big butt? :P Although the significant other also runs FreeBSD and likes the idea of supporting the project, he might have some objections to that. We could just photoshop the Linux undie girl. Randi Harper sektie@codersluts.net http://perlpimp.codersluts.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 17 00:12:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C17B937B405 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 00:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (tulip.epweb.co.za [196.14.166.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD38C43F3F for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 00:12:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (localhost.epweb.co.za [127.0.0.1]) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5H7B6Ss086372; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:11:06 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: (from ultraviolet@localhost) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5H7Axn2086370; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:10:59 +0200 (SAST) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:10:59 +0200 From: William Fletcher To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030617071059.GB84242@tulip.epweb.co.za> References: <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net> <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610154959.GB48926@over-yonder.net> <3EE60470.6030503@potentialtech.com> <20030614075901.M27909@codersluts.net> <20030616134443.GI64390@tulip.epweb.co.za> <20030617005610.M21190@codersluts.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DKU6Jbt7q3WqK7+M" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030617005610.M21190@codersluts.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 07:12:20 -0000 --DKU6Jbt7q3WqK7+M Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > With my big butt? :P Some guys are into that...=20 Queen - Fat Bottom Girls. See.=20 >=20 > Although the significant other also runs FreeBSD and likes the idea of=20 > supporting the project, he might have some objections to that. Even better, he can pose in BSD undies too.=20 We can then please the female-supporters too.=20 >=20 > We could just photoshop the Linux undie girl. Copy catting linux is bad :/=20 --=20 William Fletcher (ultraviolet) http://www.FreeBSD.org/ Uber FreeBSD! IT Administrator, EPWeb networks. irc at irc.epweb.co.za http://www.epweb.co.za/ http://vision.za.net/irc/ Tel: +27 (041) 395 6800 Worship me! :) Fax: +27 (041) 395 6818=09 Support: support@epweb.co.za I got more VD's than McAfee has fixes. --DKU6Jbt7q3WqK7+M Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+7r8Dju3fq0dMPxsRArQzAJ97xZSlKQzvYglW8uWfaKzJyrdy5QCdFlMs lzAnHhTtGEEOzfxAhp3r5kE= =az6J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DKU6Jbt7q3WqK7+M-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 17 01:06:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 641E837B401 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stephan.wmcustomer.com (stephan.wmcustomer.com [213.208.134.105]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF80643F75 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:06:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from step@stephanmantler.com) Received: from stephanmantler.com (stargate.vrvis.at [194.152.164.254]) by stephan.wmcustomer.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5H86HZ13383 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 10:06:17 +0200 Message-ID: <3EEECBF3.5040604@stephanmantler.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 10:06:11 +0200 From: stephan mantler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030507 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3EE5EA82.7050304@potentialtech.com> <20030610150130.GE26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EE5F9EA.7030106@potentialtech.com> <20030610153619.GA48926@over-yonder.net> <20030610154258.GF26444@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030610154959.GB48926@over-yonder.net> <3EE60470.6030503@potentialtech.com> <20030614075901.M27909@codersluts.net> <20030616134443.GI64390@tulip.epweb.co.za> <20030617005610.M21190@codersluts.net> <20030617071059.GB84242@tulip.epweb.co.za> In-Reply-To: <20030617071059.GB84242@tulip.epweb.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Version Release numbers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:06:20 -0000 hey, one BSD variant already has models posing for it.. http://tinyurl.com/eiab -stephan -- this space intentionally left blank. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 17 03:31:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B44C037B401 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 03:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B79D43F75 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 03:31:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C1E3D28 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:31:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:31:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3EEEB5CC.6654.14D3C921@localhost> Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Subject: MIT Open Source Conference X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 10:31:42 -0000 Anyone going to the MIT Open Source Conference in Boston this week (June19-20)? http://opensource.mit.edu/conference.html I was just thinking, it's only 8 hours drive away... -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 17 07:28:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 201B837B401 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 07:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823B743F75 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 07:28:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19SHRm-000OKw-5q; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:28:30 +0100 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:28:30 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Message-ID: <20030617142830.GL20204@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030613174937.GD33203@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030613174937.GD33203@over-yonder.net> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Christian Weisgerber cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another evil patent X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:28:26 -0000 On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 12:49:37PM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > "This invention regards a dietary supplement formulation that > > significantly improves the taste of the male ejaculate." > > Lemonade? You ejaculate lemonade? You need to see a doctor. What a bizzare thread. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 17 07:34:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A4B37B401 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 07:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D7D943FA3 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 07:34:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19SHXU-000OMl-OJ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:34:24 +0100 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:34:24 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Sondre =?unknown-8bit?Q?R=F8njom?= Message-ID: <20030617143424.GM20204@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <3EEA718A.D579B833@bigpond.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Ian Pulsford cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Look up it's SuperDOS! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:34:18 -0000 On Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 01:30:33PM +0200, Sondre Rønjom wrote: > On Sat, 14 Jun 2003, Ian Pulsford wrote: > > > I'm giving up FreeBSD because I have found something way superior: > > > > http://www.bluebird.com/superdos_faq.htm > > > > Laugh! > > > > Ian Pulsford > > If I were the man who wrote all that I would have shot my myself today You might notice it's out of date. If you go to http://www.bluebird.com there is no mention of SuperDOS I can find. Pity. I was really looking forward to running two programs side-by-side on the same screen!!! -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 17 12:28:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E980F37B401 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 12:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C2143F93 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 12:28:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19SM7S-0007Ga-00; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 12:27:50 -0700 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 12:27:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Dan Langille In-Reply-To: <3EB4D079.26872.32A7E84C@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: open source license with 24 month proprietary clause X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 19:28:20 -0000 On Sun, 4 May 2003, Dan Langille wrote: > > I read a magazine article saying that the BSD license does this 24 month > > innovations claim. > > For the record, the BSD license does no such thing. (I know you know > that...). Yes. > > Time for a letter to the editor ... > > Details of the article please... "Users take open source databases for a spin." Network World, April 28. The article indicated that the BSD license offers developers and companies a "proprietary head start of 24 months for their innovations" and "a 24-month claim on whatever innovations that might create." The online version was fixed. I wrote a letter to the editor that quickly explained the BSD license and it was published in print about a month later. (The published letter was edited from the version I provided.[1]) Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ [1] I sure have bad luck with this! I have had many technical print articles sliced and diced. Sometimes, I have had sentences repeated -- "didn't I just read that?", unrelated sentences merged, and spellings changed, like "lyx" changed to "lynx" in the context of an WYSIWYM document processor. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 17 14:46:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EDBC37B401 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2C943F85 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:46:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-33-235-56.jan.bellsouth.net [67.33.235.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 535066EEB9; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 17:46:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 73CC220F2F; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:45:59 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:45:59 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20030617214559.GA10127@over-yonder.net> References: <20030613174937.GD33203@over-yonder.net> <20030617142830.GL20204@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030617142830.GL20204@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: Christian Weisgerber cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another evil patent X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 21:46:03 -0000 On Tue, Jun 17, 2003 at 03:28:30PM +0100 I heard the voice of Paul Robinson, and lo! it spake thus: > > You ejaculate lemonade? You need to see a doctor. You know the saying... when life gives you lemons, get laser-wielding polar bears. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 17 18:50:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C0437B401 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 18:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-217.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6308043FAF for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 18:50:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h5I1oWOg006023 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 21:50:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 21:50:32 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 01:50:37 -0000 My ISP is Adelphia Cable Internet. Their tech folks are incompetent, and their tech support is useless. Their mail servers are broken and therefore any mail to @freebsd.org bounces. If you look at my headers, you'll see that I configured my box to be its own mail relay and I'm able to send to the FreeBSD lists (yippie!). However, it's still a DHCP addy and there's no way of hiding that. Thus, my emails are getting rejected by a lot of other people ... most recently, I'm finding that RoadRunner's entire SMTP system rejects me. I am NOT paying for a static IP. I don't need it, I have no need or desire to run any servers on this box - I wouldn't even bother to run my own mail relay if Adelphia would fix theirs so I could use it. When I try to talk to them, I get anything from "reinstall Windows" to flat-out ignored. Does anyone have any suggestion on how I can get them to fix their worthless shit? I've tried being nice. I've tried being an asshole. I have nothing to threaten with, as there are no other high-speed providers in this area. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 17 19:17:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A5B037B401 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 19:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC1843F3F for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 19:17:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h5I2HQtS023101; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:17:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 04:17:25 +0200 To: Bill Moran From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 02:17:32 -0000 At 9:50 PM -0400 2003/06/17, Bill Moran wrote: > Does anyone have any suggestion on how I can get them to fix their > worthless shit? I've tried being nice. I've tried being an asshole. > I have nothing to threaten with, as there are no other high-speed > providers in this area. Don't bother. Find someone else that has a secure SMTP server (with a static IP address) that they will let you use and which allows SMTPAUTH and/or TLSSMTP, and then use them to relay all your mail. Unfortunately, this may cost more money than buying a static IP address for yourself. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 17 19:34:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 627A037B401 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 19:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta3.adelphia.net (mta3.adelphia.net [64.8.50.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4AEA43F85 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 19:34:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta3.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030618023414.GZIJ1347.mta3.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:34:14 -0400 Message-ID: <3EEFCFA5.7050008@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:34:13 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 02:34:15 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > At 9:50 PM -0400 2003/06/17, Bill Moran wrote: > >> Does anyone have any suggestion on how I can get them to fix their >> worthless shit? I've tried being nice. I've tried being an asshole. >> I have nothing to threaten with, as there are no other high-speed >> providers in this area. > > Don't bother. Find someone else that has a secure SMTP server (with > a static IP address) that they will let you use and which allows > SMTPAUTH and/or TLSSMTP, and then use them to relay all your mail. > Unfortunately, this may cost more money than buying a static IP address > for yourself. Well Brad (and anyone else who took interest in this thread) ... it's suddenly fixed. I was looking into it to get the details of what was wrong and now they've suddenly fixed it. I would be very happy except for the weeks that I spend arguing with them that they refused to admit anything was wrong ... but maybe my messages finally got through to someone who realized that I had a valid complaint. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 17 20:15:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A0737B40D for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 20:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fbfguns.com (adsl-64-123-156-89.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net [64.123.156.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73B4743FDD for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 20:15:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@fbfguns.com) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:15:14 -0500 Message-ID: <3BD4A5842C8AE2428158AB1EE6DCC37713FE1E@mail.fbfguns.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP Thread-Index: AcM1QjsZkXuVPfoPTae4ZP493AuDEgABVZpw From: "Jason Burgess" To: Subject: RE: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 03:15:16 -0000 Bill, Some companies are like that (I've worked for one before.) Their motto, "Never admit fault." But some people will still get you taken care of, even if they can't admit they did it. Jason Burgess -----Original Message----- From: Bill Moran [mailto:wmoran@potentialtech.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 9:34 PM To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP Brad Knowles wrote: > At 9:50 PM -0400 2003/06/17, Bill Moran wrote: >=20 >> Does anyone have any suggestion on how I can get them to fix their >> worthless shit? I've tried being nice. I've tried being an asshole. >> I have nothing to threaten with, as there are no other high-speed >> providers in this area. >=20 > Don't bother. Find someone else that has a secure SMTP server (with=20 > a static IP address) that they will let you use and which allows=20 > SMTPAUTH and/or TLSSMTP, and then use them to relay all your mail. =20 > Unfortunately, this may cost more money than buying a static IP address=20 > for yourself. Well Brad (and anyone else who took interest in this thread) ... it's suddenly fixed. I was looking into it to get the details of what was wrong and now they've suddenly fixed it. I would be very happy except for the weeks that I spend arguing with them that they refused to admit anything was wrong ... but maybe my messages finally got through to someone who realized that I had a valid complaint. --=20 Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 17 20:17:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864F637B401 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 20:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.213.64.2] (firewall.tiadon.com [204.213.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73AEE43FD7 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 20:17:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from rmc.tiadon.com by [204.213.64.2] ESMTP; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:14:59 -0500 Received: from applications.tiadon.com (mail.tiadon.com [172.16.18.172]) by bcec01.tiadon.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id M49FMS6W; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:17:04 -0500 Received: from firewall.tiadon.com ([204.213.65.143]) by applications.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:16:47 -0500 Received: from [204.213.65.143] by firewall.tiadon.com via smtpd (for mail.tiadon.com [172.16.18.172]) with ESMTP; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:14:38 -0500 Message-ID: <012e01c33547$fb57c7d0$8f41d5cc@nitanjared> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: , "Andrew Thomson" References: <20030618023431.GE2681@athomson.prv.au.itouchnet.net> <20030618030415.GA9857@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:16:15 -0500 Organization: DaleCo, S.P.---"the solutions people" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 03:17:06 -0000 Moved to chat@ on the basis of my reply, not the original content --- :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josef Grosch" To: "Andrew Thomson" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 10:04 PM Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? > On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 12:34:31PM +1000, Andrew Thomson wrote: > > i had this once upon time.. however can no longer find it.. > > > > it was an image which was pretty much all black with a "chick bsd > > daemon" on it for memory? > > > > anyway no what i'm talking about? got it lying around? > > http://themes.freshmeat.net/projects/menvsboys/?topic_id=918%2C952 > > Enjoy > > Josef And I love FBSD as much as the next guy, but could we do somethin' about her eyebrows? KDK From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 17 21:09:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B93A37B401 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 21:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.attbi.com (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D01B143FDD for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 21:09:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah@acm.org) Received: from bmah.dyndns.org ([12.240.204.110]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <20030618040910014004mdpre>; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 04:09:10 +0000 Received: from intruder.bmah.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bmah.dyndns.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5I499Nm046192; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 21:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah@intruder.bmah.org) Message-Id: <200306180409.h5I499Nm046192@bmah.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Bill Moran In-Reply-To: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> Comments: In-reply-to Bill Moran message dated "Tue, 17 Jun 2003 21:50:32 -0400." From: "Bruce A. Mah" X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_791027903P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 21:09:09 -0700 Sender: bmah@acm.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: bmah@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 04:09:11 -0000 --==_Exmh_791027903P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If memory serves me right, Bill Moran wrote: > My ISP is Adelphia Cable Internet. > > Their tech folks are incompetent, and their tech support is useless. > > Their mail servers are broken and therefore any mail to @freebsd.org > bounces. If you look at my headers, you'll see that I configured my > box to be its own mail relay and I'm able to send to the FreeBSD lists > (yippie!). > > However, it's still a DHCP addy and there's no way of hiding that. > Thus, my emails are getting rejected by a lot of other people ... > most recently, I'm finding that RoadRunner's entire SMTP system > rejects me. > > I am NOT paying for a static IP. I don't need it, I have no need > or desire to run any servers on this box - I wouldn't even bother > to run my own mail relay if Adelphia would fix theirs so I could > use it. > > When I try to talk to them, I get anything from "reinstall Windows" > to flat-out ignored. > > Does anyone have any suggestion on how I can get them to fix their > worthless shit? I've tried being nice. I've tried being an asshole. > I have nothing to threaten with, as there are no other high-speed > providers in this area. Interesting. This sounds very much like the past two days of my life (perhaps longer), except I'm on Comcast (formerly AT&T Broadband Internet). They had the DNS records for their outbound mail relays messed up such that the A and PTR records for any given relay machine were not consistent. This makes sending to the FreeBSD.org machines problematic. I have been having various problems with ATTBI's outbound mail relays off-and-on for over a year. When postmaster@comcast.net bounced a note I sent from my work machines to inform them of this problem, that was the last straw for me. I'm actively working towards switching towards a DSL provider with some clue (there's other issues involved as well that are outside the scope of this email). (To be honest, I didn't try working through Comcast's tech support, but based on my experiences with TCI and AT&T Broadband Internet's tech support, I don't think I was missing much.) I'm glad to hear your situation worked out finally. Bruce. --==_Exmh_791027903P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.5+ 20020506 iD8DBQE+7+Xl2MoxcVugUsMRAkTRAJ9/1zSjd5Nh/l12Cp2e4NuUCOKI6gCgi7v5 EIerBR5gtRaUzoQ9/1ehqNA= =vBlZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_791027903P-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 17 21:15:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDB537B401 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 21:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seed.net.tw (sn14.seed.net.tw [139.175.54.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8A143F93 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 21:15:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from leafy@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) Received: from [210.64.32.88] (port=49977 helo=chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) by seed.net.tw with esmtp (Seednet 4.14:2) id 19SULd-000Gdv-1G for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:15:01 +0800 Received: from chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (nobody@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5I4EwFD018500 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:14:59 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from leafy@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) Received: (from leafy@localhost) by chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5I4Ew7O018499 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:14:58 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:14:57 +0800 From: leafy To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030618041457.GA18403@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> <200306180409.h5I499Nm046192@bmah.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200306180409.h5I499Nm046192@bmah.dyndns.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 04:15:02 -0000 On Tue, Jun 17, 2003 at 09:09:09PM -0700, Bruce A. Mah wrote: > > Does anyone have any suggestion on how I can get them to fix their > > worthless shit? I've tried being nice. I've tried being an asshole. > > I have nothing to threaten with, as there are no other high-speed > > providers in this area. Does adding define(`SMART_HOST', `smtp:[actual_ip_of_your_isp_mail_server]') to your site.mc help? You can see in my headers that I do it exactly this way to avoid being rejected as a DHCP DSL host. Hope this gets you out of this shxt. Cheers, Jiawei -- "Without the userland, the kernel is useless." --inspired by The Tao of Programming From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 01:32:51 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E1B37B404 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 01:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A717143FBD for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 01:32:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 0FB78530F; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:32:46 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Paul Robinson References: <3EEA718A.D579B833@bigpond.com> <20030617143424.GM20204@iconoplex.co.uk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:32:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030617143424.GM20204@iconoplex.co.uk> (Paul Robinson's message of "Tue, 17 Jun 2003 15:34:24 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Sondre =?iso-8859-1?q?R=F8njom?= cc: Ian Pulsford cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Look up it's SuperDOS! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:32:51 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > You might notice it's out of date. If you go to http://www.bluebird.com > there is no mention of SuperDOS I can find. http://www.bluepointsolutions.com/ DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 02:16:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFF537B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 02:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CCB243F3F for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 02:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfl1t.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.212.61] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19SZ3I-0006qb-00; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 02:16:25 -0700 Message-ID: <3EF02D44.EF07CE6E@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 02:13:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4295de0da9206727987e7495a704ce26fa7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:16:26 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > My ISP is Adelphia Cable Internet. [ ... ] > Does anyone have any suggestion on how I can get them to fix their > worthless shit? I've tried being nice. I've tried being an asshole. > I have nothing to threaten with, as there are no other high-speed > providers in this area. Volunteer to fix it for them for $$$. Volunteer to fix it for them for free. Letter to the editor of every local paper, spaced 1 week apart, and explaining in plain English what's wrong with their setup, and the consequences for their customers. If you can, get on one of your local TV stations as a contrasting editorial opinion, and use them as an example of a provider who does things the wrong way. Start a letter writing campaign by local users's groups. Contact the local TV station's "consumer advocacy" 5 minute human interest segment editor (e.g. in the Bay Area, "7 On Your Side"). There are a lot of things you can do that would make it more cost effective to fix it than to continue doing Business As Usual(tm). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 03:50:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2380D37B404 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 03:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41AC543FBD for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 03:50:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19SaWB-00007A-VY; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:50:19 +0100 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:50:19 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030618105019.GR20204@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:50:10 -0000 On Tue, Jun 17, 2003 at 09:50:32PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > Their tech folks are incompetent, and their tech support is useless. You appear to have conncetivity. If they were really incompetent, that wouldn't be happening. > Their mail servers are broken and therefore any mail to @freebsd.org > bounces. If you look at my headers, you'll see that I configured my > box to be its own mail relay and I'm able to send to the FreeBSD lists > (yippie!). Define "broken". No reverse lookup on DNS? Tell them it's needed in the RFC, even if it isn't. Tell them how to do it. Most importantly, don't tell the front line support - get escalated up to somebody who knows how to do it and has admin privileges on the right box. ISPs are willing to help, it's just most of them are stuctured to keep techs away from customers. > I am NOT paying for a static IP. I don't need it, I have no need Sounds like you do need it to me. :-) > When I try to talk to them, I get anything from "reinstall Windows" > to flat-out ignored. And when you phoned their manager and politely explained the situation, what did he say? ;-) -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 04:15:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31E637B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 04:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bastet.rfc822.net (bastet.rfc822.net [64.81.113.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64BAD43FB1 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 04:15:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pde@bastet.rfc822.net) Received: by bastet.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 722359F08A; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 06:18:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 06:18:49 -0500 From: Pete Ehlke To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <20030618111849.GA31273@rfc822.net> References: <20030618023431.GE2681@athomson.prv.au.itouchnet.net> <20030618030415.GA9857@mooseriver.com> <012e01c33547$fb57c7d0$8f41d5cc@nitanjared> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <012e01c33547$fb57c7d0$8f41d5cc@nitanjared> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:15:26 -0000 On Tue, Jun 17, 2003 at 10:16:15PM -0500, Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 12:34:31PM +1000, Andrew Thomson wrote: > > > i had this once upon time.. however can no longer find it.. > > > > > > it was an image which was pretty much all black with a "chick bsd > > > daemon" on it for memory? > > > > > > anyway no what i'm talking about? got it lying around? > > > > http://themes.freshmeat.net/projects/menvsboys/?topic_id=918%2C952 > > > > Enjoy > > > > Josef > > And I love FBSD as much as the next guy, > but could we do somethin' about her eyebrows? > And I believe this is the point at which we all remember why BSD *really* is superior to linux: http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcone/bsdversuslinux.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 05:58:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4387B37B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 05:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta2.adelphia.net (mta2.adelphia.net [64.8.50.178]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDDB43F75 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 05:58:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta2.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030618125802.XNWV1359.mta2.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:58:02 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:58:01 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pete Ehlke References: <20030618023431.GE2681@athomson.prv.au.itouchnet.net> <20030618030415.GA9857@mooseriver.com> <012e01c33547$fb57c7d0$8f41d5cc@nitanjared> <20030618111849.GA31273@rfc822.net> In-Reply-To: <20030618111849.GA31273@rfc822.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:58:05 -0000 Pete Ehlke wrote: > And I believe this is the point at which we all remember why BSD > *really* is superior to linux: > > http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcone/bsdversuslinux.html Who is this woman? Is she taken? What's her phone number? For goodness sake people ... HELP ME OUT!! -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 07:11:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2256237B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta1.adelphia.net (mta1.adelphia.net [64.8.50.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62DB243F3F for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:11:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta1.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030618141412.OODP25556.mta1.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:14:12 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF07317.4060307@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:11:35 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> <20030618105019.GR20204@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030618105019.GR20204@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 14:11:37 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Tue, Jun 17, 2003 at 09:50:32PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > >>Their tech folks are incompetent, and their tech support is useless. > > You appear to have conncetivity. If they were really incompetent, that > wouldn't be happening. True. It only took them a few months to figure that out. >>Their mail servers are broken and therefore any mail to @freebsd.org >>bounces. If you look at my headers, you'll see that I configured my >>box to be its own mail relay and I'm able to send to the FreeBSD lists >>(yippie!). > > Define "broken". No reverse lookup on DNS? Tell them it's needed in the RFC, > even if it isn't. Tell them how to do it. Most importantly, don't tell the > front line support - get escalated up to somebody who knows how to do it and > has admin privileges on the right box. The HELO line from the server announced itself with a machine name that had no DNS whatsoever. They've suddenly fixed it now, though. Perhaps they were waiting for me to publicly complain, or maybe it's just coincidence. > ISPs are willing to help, it's just most of them are stuctured to keep techs > away from customers. Hmmm ... those two statements don't correlate. >>I am NOT paying for a static IP. I don't need it, I have no need > > Sounds like you do need it to me. :-) Why? Should I have to pay for a static IP in order to have a properly configured SMTP relay? >>When I try to talk to them, I get anything from "reinstall Windows" >>to flat-out ignored. > > > And when you phoned their manager and politely explained the situation, what > did he say? ;-) Remember your earlier statement "structured to keep tech away from customers"? It appears that they're structured to keep managers away from customers as well. There's not much I can do when the person answering the phone refuses to direct me to anyone but the same level 1 tech support I talked to the day before. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 07:15:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE2B37B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta2.adelphia.net (mta2.adelphia.net [64.8.50.178]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FE9043FA3 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:15:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta2.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030618141507.CADD1359.mta2.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:15:07 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF073EB.9010206@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:15:07 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> <3EF02D44.EF07CE6E@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3EF02D44.EF07CE6E@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 14:15:09 -0000 Terry Lambert wrote: > Bill Moran wrote: > >>My ISP is Adelphia Cable Internet. > > [ ... ] > >>Does anyone have any suggestion on how I can get them to fix their >>worthless shit? I've tried being nice. I've tried being an asshole. >>I have nothing to threaten with, as there are no other high-speed >>providers in this area. > > Volunteer to fix it for them for $$$. I did. They don't have any positions open right now and don't need any consulting help. (their words) > Volunteer to fix it for them for free. I did. They didn't seem to understand that statement. > Letter to the editor of every local paper, spaced 1 week apart, > and explaining in plain English what's wrong with their setup, > and the consequences for their customers. I was considering that. Seems like a lot of work just to get someone to do what they're supposed to do anyway. > If you can, get on one of your local TV stations as a contrasting > editorial opinion, and use them as an example of a provider who > does things the wrong way. > > Start a letter writing campaign by local users's groups. > > Contact the local TV station's "consumer advocacy" 5 minute human > interest segment editor (e.g. in the Bay Area, "7 On Your Side"). > > There are a lot of things you can do that would make it more cost > effective to fix it than to continue doing Business As Usual(tm). These are all good ideas, Terry, and I'll probably use them if I come across problems again. I just don't understand why I have to pay for the service, then go out of my way to actually get it to work. I must be a shitty salesman, as I know lots of companies that have things broken, yet don't need anyone to fix them. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 07:37:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE23337B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DCA543FD7 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:37:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19Se4G-0000Vc-FM; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:37:44 +0100 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:37:44 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030618143744.GZ20204@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> <20030618105019.GR20204@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EF07317.4060307@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EF07317.4060307@potentialtech.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 14:37:35 -0000 On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 10:11:35AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > True. It only took them a few months to figure that out. Hahaha... OK, so they do sound like dolts... > The HELO line from the server announced itself with a machine name that had > no DNS whatsoever. > They've suddenly fixed it now, though. Perhaps they were waiting for me to > publicly complain, or maybe it's just coincidence. Hmmmm... sounds like they copied the mail config over from another machine and not updated the primary hostname stuff in there. Easy mistake to make, and because MS MUAs and MTAs don't give a damn about strictly following RFCs, would go relatively un-noticed for some time. > >ISPs are willing to help, it's just most of them are stuctured to keep > >techs away from customers. > > Hmmm ... those two statements don't correlate. Sure. I used to work at an ISP where it wasn't happening enough. I once ended up picking up phones to customers and saying "Yes, I know mail is broken at the moment, but I can't fix it because I'm too busy answering the phone to people complaining mail is broken". Techs should stay away from customers. > Why? Should I have to pay for a static IP in order to have a properly > configured SMTP relay? If you really want "properly configured SMTP relay", then I'd say yes. SMTP isn't designed for mobile IP. :-) > Remember your earlier statement "structured to keep tech away from > customers"? > It appears that they're structured to keep managers away from customers as > well. Cunning bastards. > There's not much I can do when the person answering the phone refuses to > direct me to anyone but the same level 1 tech support I talked to the day > before. Fair enough. And there is nobody at all you can move your business to? -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 07:44:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7011F37B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 529A743FB1 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:44:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 8098A5310; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:44:36 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Bill Moran References: <20030618023431.GE2681@athomson.prv.au.itouchnet.net> <20030618030415.GA9857@mooseriver.com> <012e01c33547$fb57c7d0$8f41d5cc@nitanjared> <20030618111849.GA31273@rfc822.net> <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:44:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> (Bill Moran's message of "Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:58:01 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Pete Ehlke cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 14:44:40 -0000 Bill Moran writes: > Pete Ehlke wrote: > > http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcone/bsdversuslinux.html > Who is this woman? Is she taken? What's her phone number? Her name is Ceren Ercen, and I believe that she was msmith's SO at the time. She has a fan club: http://kurtspace.com/boothbabes/ Note that she wasn't the only booth babe at Linux World, I believe WC or BSDI or whoever it was also hired two models for the event. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 08:14:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E502A37B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:14:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta1.adelphia.net (mta1.adelphia.net [64.8.50.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26EB243F75 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta1.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030618151654.SNGZ25556.mta1.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com> for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:16:54 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF081C9.1030501@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:14:17 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20030618023431.GE2681@athomson.prv.au.itouchnet.net> <20030618030415.GA9857@mooseriver.com> <012e01c33547$fb57c7d0$8f41d5cc@nitanjared> <20030618111849.GA31273@rfc822.net> <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:14:19 -0000 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Bill Moran writes: > >>Pete Ehlke wrote: >> >>>http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcone/bsdversuslinux.html >> >>Who is this woman? Is she taken? What's her phone number? > > Her name is Ceren Ercen, and I believe that she was msmith's SO at the > time. See ... I knew she wouldn't be single ... > She has a fan club: http://kurtspace.com/boothbabes/ Whoa! What do I have to do to get a fan club? > Note that she wasn't the only booth babe at Linux World, I believe > WC or BSDI or whoever it was also hired two models for the event. Maybe I could be a "boot stud" at the next convention? I could wear a red g-string, shave my chest and wear pointy horns. Then someone would make a fan club dedicated to me! -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 08:22:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D620E37B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta5.adelphia.net (mta5.adelphia.net [64.8.50.187]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F2943FBD for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:22:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta5.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030618152231.WPRN1551.mta5.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:22:31 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF083B6.8070902@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:22:30 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> <20030618105019.GR20204@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EF07317.4060307@potentialtech.com> <20030618143744.GZ20204@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030618143744.GZ20204@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:22:33 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 10:11:35AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > >>True. It only took them a few months to figure that out. > > Hahaha... OK, so they do sound like dolts... It's tough to generalize, though. When we had ours installed, it worked the next day (and off and on for about two months before it stabalized) When my brother had his installed, it took three install techs a week to get it hooked up, but after that it worked perfectly. >>>ISPs are willing to help, it's just most of them are stuctured to keep >>>techs away from customers. >> >>Hmmm ... those two statements don't correlate. > > Sure. I used to work at an ISP where it wasn't happening enough. I once > ended up picking up phones to customers and saying "Yes, I know mail is > broken at the moment, but I can't fix it because I'm too busy answering the > phone to people complaining mail is broken". Techs should stay away from > customers. I understand where you're coming from, but when the level 1 techs (which aren't really techs, but just phone-answeres trained to answer from a FAQ) can't answer the question, they need to pass it on to the real techs. Yes, it's a good idea to have people man the phones to handle the "I can't get email" questions while the real techs are fixing the problem. But having them divert endlessly and never report the problem to the real techs isn't right either. >>Why? Should I have to pay for a static IP in order to have a properly >>configured SMTP relay? > > If you really want "properly configured SMTP relay", then I'd say yes. SMTP > isn't designed for mobile IP. :-) I'm not mobile. How far am I supposed to be able to roam with this cable anyway? >>Remember your earlier statement "structured to keep tech away from >>customers"? >>It appears that they're structured to keep managers away from customers as >>well. > > Cunning bastards. That's politer than what I said! >>There's not much I can do when the person answering the phone refuses to >>direct me to anyone but the same level 1 tech support I talked to the day >>before. > > Fair enough. And there is nobody at all you can move your business to? I could go back to Pulsenet, whom I had the same problem with for three months. At least Adelphia has finally corrected the problem. Pulsenet got to the point where they refused to answer the phone. And messages that I left on their automated system were never returned. Unfortunately, no, there is nobody else. This is a VERY old neighborhood, and the high-quality ISP that I would like to use (city-net) can't get DSL into my neighborhood because the phone lines haven't been upgrade in 30 years (not exagerating ... sometimes the line quality is so bad I can't send faxes). Nobody else can get DSL in here either, and only Adelphia has cable. Pulsnet is the only one providing wireless, and I refuse to go back them (last I checked, they still hadn't corrected their DNS) I haven't checked satellite yet, could be possible. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 08:37:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 201A037B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47F143FCB for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:37:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h5IFbZtS090412; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:37:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3EF083B6.8070902@potentialtech.com> References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> <20030618105019.GR20204@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EF07317.4060307@potentialtech.com> <20030618143744.GZ20204@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EF083B6.8070902@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:37:24 +0200 To: Bill Moran From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:37:45 -0000 At 11:22 AM -0400 2003/06/18, Bill Moran wrote: > Unfortunately, no, there is nobody else. This is a VERY old >neighborhood, and > the high-quality ISP that I would like to use (city-net) can't get DSL into > my neighborhood because the phone lines haven't been upgrade in 30 years (not > exagerating ... sometimes the line quality is so bad I can't send faxes). > Nobody else can get DSL in here either, and only Adelphia has cable. Pulsnet > is the only one providing wireless, and I refuse to go back them >(last I checked, > they still hadn't corrected their DNS) I haven't checked satellite >yet, could > be possible. The best solution may be to set up your own neighborhood co-op ISP. Get together with the other people in the area, and offer to help provide Internet access to them. Even if you can't get SDSL, you should be able to get a T-1 or fractional T-1, which you could then share with your neighbors via 802.11b or 802.11g. You could then look at additional options for high-bandwidth (but high latency) downstream access such as satellite (with asymmetric routing via your T-1/Frac. T-1), or other alternative additional feeds. I'd be willing to bet that once there was an option with real competition in the area, things with all the other providers would suddenly and mysteriously improve. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 09:07:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918F637B40D for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D921E43F75 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:07:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19SfTg-0000cG-Mz; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:08:04 +0100 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:08:04 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20030618160804.GB20204@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> <20030618105019.GR20204@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EF07317.4060307@potentialtech.com> <20030618143744.GZ20204@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EF083B6.8070902@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:07:54 -0000 On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 05:37:24PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > The best solution may be to set up your own neighborhood co-op > ISP. Get together with the other people in the area, and offer to > help provide Internet access to them. Even if you can't get SDSL, > you should be able to get a T-1 or fractional T-1, which you could > then share with your neighbors via 802.11b or 802.11g. I was actually about to write back to Bill then and suggest the same thing to him. Setting up an ISP is not only quite good fun, sharpens the skills, but in an area with little competition like Bill's is likely to be profitable. Also, quite straight forward for somebody with the skills. The only thing I would do, is spend more time learning RADIUS before starting out than I did the last time I was in a similar position... the tools are better now though, anyway... > You could then look at additional options for high-bandwidth (but > high latency) downstream access such as satellite (with asymmetric > routing via your T-1/Frac. T-1), or other alternative additional > feeds. Satellite should be available everywhere below Alaska, and is quite cheap. I know a lot of smaller ISPs use it purely for Usenet feeds, so as to not clog up their 256Kb leased line back to the city... Of course, contrary to popular belief, here in the UK where the neighbourhoods are all *VERY* old, we seem to have finally got a clue and DSL is available in all cities, most towns, and even in the smallest village you can get a 2Mb/sec frame relay (for $$$$$) if you want it... in fact, one place I worked was in a hamlet and we had several 155Mb/sec links over SDH, 34Mb/sec microwave, 34Mb/sec backup frame relay... and that was some 8 miles from the nearest town of any size. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 09:12:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6790337B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACC6343FBF for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:12:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from root@localhost) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA21256; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:12:53 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:12:53 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Glass Message-Id: <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> To: pde@rfc822.net, wmoran@potentialtech.com In-Reply-To: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:12:56 -0000 > Who is this woman? Is she taken? That's Ceren Ercen, pictured in the Walnut Creek CD-ROM booth at LinuxWorld NYC in February 2000. (This was just before the merger of Walnut Creek and BSDI.) She'd been a "booth babe" for Walnut Creek before, but this was the first time, AFAIK, that she wore the latex body suit rather than a leotard. At the time, I asked her if she would be daring enough to go one step further and do the Demi Moore thing. Her reply: "Not in New York, but in California... maybe." At the time, her squeeze was Mike Smith, who worked for Walnut Creek. I haven't seen her since the Monterey BSDCon, so I have no idea what she's up to now. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 09:20:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D8F37B401; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.213.64.2] (firewall.tiadon.com [204.213.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C394943F75; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:20:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from rmc.tiadon.com by [204.213.64.2] ESMTP; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:18:41 -0500 Received: from applications.tiadon.com (mail.tiadon.com [172.16.18.172]) by bcec01.tiadon.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id M49FNLSD; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:20:55 -0500 Received: from firewall.tiadon.com ([204.213.65.193]) by applications.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:20:56 -0500 Received: from [204.213.65.193] by firewall.tiadon.com via smtpd (for mail.tiadon.com [172.16.18.172]) with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:18:38 -0500 Message-ID: <024001c335b5$83241ac0$c141d5cc@nitanjared> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: , "Bill Moran" References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> <200306180409.h5I499Nm046192@bmah.dyndns.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:20:18 -0500 Organization: DaleCo, S.P.---"the solutions people" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:20:57 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce A. Mah" To: "Bill Moran" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 11:09 PM Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP >> Does anyone have any suggestion on how I can get them to fix their >> worthless shit? I've tried being nice. I've tried being an asshole. >> I have nothing to threaten with, as there are no other high-speed >> providers in this area. >Interesting. This sounds very much like the > past two days of my life (perhaps longer), > except I'm on Comcast (formerly AT&T > Broadband Internet). They had the DNS > records for their outbound mail relays messed > up such that the A and PTR records for any > given relay machine were not consistent. This > makes sending to the FreeBSD.org machines > problematic. I have been having various > problems with ATTBI's outbound > mail relays off-and-on for over a year. > > I'm glad to hear your situation worked out finally. > > Bruce. My ISP's "main" SMTP box has no PTR records; I made an end run around them by using their firewall box instead...I even told one gal about it, recently, but so far, so good.... Kevin Kinsey From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 09:22:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25BFC37B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.attbi.com (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40EA343F93 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:22:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-231-65-102.client.attbi.com[12.231.65.102](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2003061816222401300sctcoe>; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:22:24 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h5IGLW9I021116 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:21:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h5IGLRIn021115; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:21:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: chat@freebsd.org References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 18 Jun 2003 09:21:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:22:26 -0000 > Unfortunately, this may cost more money than buying a static IP address > for yourself. Someone please explain the above statement made to a guy on cable. I shut down my server after switching to cable (Internet AND phone, after Qwest hosed me several times too often), since I thought that static IP was out of the question on cable. (The cable contract even forbade dynamic DNS, IIRC.) Do some cable systems offer static IP or is there some other means to get static IP via cable which I don't know about? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 09:30:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F5E37B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.213.64.2] (firewall.tiadon.com [204.213.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1300443F75 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:29:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from rmc.tiadon.com by [204.213.64.2] ESMTP; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:27:44 -0500 Received: from applications.tiadon.com (mail.tiadon.com [172.16.18.172]) by bcec01.tiadon.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id M49FNL83; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:29:59 -0500 Received: from firewall.tiadon.com ([204.213.65.193]) by applications.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:29:59 -0500 Received: from [204.213.65.193] by firewall.tiadon.com via smtpd (for mail.tiadon.com [172.16.18.172]) with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:27:42 -0500 Message-ID: <02e701c335b6$c737f8c0$c141d5cc@nitanjared> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: , "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:29:22 -0500 Organization: DaleCo, S.P.---"the solutions people" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:30:00 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary W. Swearingen" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 11:21 AM Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP > > Unfortunately, this may cost more > > money than buying a static IP address > > for yourself. > > Someone please explain the above statement > made to a guy on cable. I > shut down my server after switching to > cable (Internet AND phone, after > Qwest hosed me several times too often), > since I thought that static IP > was out of the question on cable. (The > cable contract even forbade > dynamic DNS, IIRC.) Do some cable > systems offer static IP or is there > some other means to get static IP via > cable which I don't know about? Cox offers static IP - small business setup, about $70/month in Missouri/ NW Arkansas. Additional statics are $15 monthly, IIRC. In contrast, standard "express" package for homes is $24.95, DHCP, and about 10-20% of the "biz" bandwidth.... KDK From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 09:38:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F30437B407 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB2F43FDD for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:38:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h5IGcJtS096198; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:38:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:32:20 +0200 To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:38:30 -0000 At 9:21 AM -0700 2003/06/18, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >> Unfortunately, this may cost more money than buying a static IP address >> for yourself. > > Someone please explain the above statement made to a guy on cable. I > shut down my server after switching to cable (Internet AND phone, after > Qwest hosed me several times too often), since I thought that static IP > was out of the question on cable. (The cable contract even forbade > dynamic DNS, IIRC.) Do some cable systems offer static IP or is there > some other means to get static IP via cable which I don't know about? Some providers make static IPs available, if you're willing to pay for them. Some don't. It all depends on your provider. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 09:38:38 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A25C837B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CE6743F93 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:38:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfj3r.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.204.123] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19SfxC-0001Bd-00; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:38:34 -0700 Message-ID: <3EF09541.57F42A78@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:37:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> <20030618105019.GR20204@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4ba9a1a37c9fbb3e8bf536a05b2d3a6cc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:38:39 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > Define "broken". No reverse lookup on DNS? Tell them it's needed in the RFC, > even if it isn't. Tell them how to do it. Most importantly, don't tell the > front line support - get escalated up to somebody who knows how to do it and > has admin privileges on the right box. RFC 1123, "Host Requirements". -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 09:45:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50DE437B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fbfguns.com (adsl-64-123-156-89.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net [64.123.156.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795F743F93 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:45:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@fbfguns.com) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:45:51 -0500 Message-ID: <3BD4A5842C8AE2428158AB1EE6DCC37713FE27@mail.fbfguns.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP Thread-Index: AcM1tuOqKL7GsKEwSdaug9JEPyiRAQAAffoQ From: "Jason Burgess" To: Subject: RE: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:45:53 -0000 Kevin, Cox offers business cable here too, but, at least when we tried it, even having an incoming mail server will get you turned off. Jason Burgess -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. [mailto:kdk@daleco.biz]=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 11:29 AM To: chat@freebsd.org; Gary W. Swearingen Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Gary W. Swearingen" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 11:21 AM Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP > > Unfortunately, this may cost more=20 > > money than buying a static IP address > > for yourself. >=20 > Someone please explain the above statement > made to a guy on cable. I > shut down my server after switching to=20 > cable (Internet AND phone, after > Qwest hosed me several times too often),=20 > since I thought that static IP > was out of the question on cable. (The=20 > cable contract even forbade > dynamic DNS, IIRC.) Do some cable=20 > systems offer static IP or is there > some other means to get static IP via=20 > cable which I don't know about? Cox offers static IP - small business setup, about $70/month in Missouri/ NW Arkansas. Additional statics are $15 monthly, IIRC. In contrast, standard "express" package for homes is $24.95, DHCP, and about 10-20% of the "biz" bandwidth.... KDK _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 09:47:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4570637B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bastet.rfc822.net (bastet.rfc822.net [64.81.113.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A42443F93 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:47:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pde@bastet.rfc822.net) Received: by bastet.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2D1359F162; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:51:19 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:51:19 -0500 From: Pete Ehlke To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:47:54 -0000 On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 10:12:53AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At the time, her squeeze was Mike Smith, who worked for Walnut Creek. I > haven't seen her since the Monterey BSDCon, so I have no idea what she's up to > now. > I used to see her on the street outside 650 Townsend when both linuxcare (where she worked) and shockwave (where I did) were both there, and the building's fire alarm system would go off a couple of times a week. Then linuxcare went south, and so did shockwave, and The Great Scattering happened. NFC whatever happened to her. -Pete From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 10:08:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48ECB37B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.213.64.2] (firewall.tiadon.com [204.213.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D46E43FBF for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:08:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from rmc.tiadon.com by [204.213.64.2] ESMTP; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:06:39 -0500 Received: from applications.tiadon.com (mail.tiadon.com [172.16.18.172]) by bcec01.tiadon.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id M49FNNNW; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:08:54 -0500 Received: from firewall.tiadon.com ([204.213.65.123]) by applications.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:08:55 -0500 Received: from [204.213.65.123] by firewall.tiadon.com via smtpd (for mail.tiadon.com [172.16.18.172]) with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:06:37 -0500 Message-ID: <001b01c335bc$368b2bc0$7b41d5cc@nitanjared> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Jason Burgess" References: <3BD4A5842C8AE2428158AB1EE6DCC37713FE27@mail.fbfguns.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:08:16 -0500 Organization: DaleCo, S.P.---"the solutions people" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:08:55 -0000 Interesting. Two hosts here, Apache/SSL, Sendmail, SSH, BIND; once upon a time FTP; they even handle the DNS for one of the domains. I'm not sure whether they realize the extent of my virthosting activity, but if they shut down a coupla of my clients, they'd likely have grounds to sue, by my understanding; better have a look at the agreements they signed pretty soon, huh? KDK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Burgess" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 11:45 AM Subject: RE: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP Kevin, Cox offers business cable here too, but, at least when we tried it, even having an incoming mail server will get you turned off. Jason Burgess -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. [mailto:kdk@daleco.biz] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 11:29 AM To: chat@freebsd.org; Gary W. Swearingen Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary W. Swearingen" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 11:21 AM Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP > > Unfortunately, this may cost more > > money than buying a static IP address > > for yourself. > > Someone please explain the above statement > made to a guy on cable. I > shut down my server after switching to > cable (Internet AND phone, after > Qwest hosed me several times too often), > since I thought that static IP > was out of the question on cable. (The > cable contract even forbade > dynamic DNS, IIRC.) Do some cable > systems offer static IP or is there > some other means to get static IP via > cable which I don't know about? Cox offers static IP - small business setup, about $70/month in Missouri/ NW Arkansas. Additional statics are $15 monthly, IIRC. In contrast, standard "express" package for homes is $24.95, DHCP, and about 10-20% of the "biz" bandwidth.... KDK _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 10:25:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F87E37B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta1.adelphia.net (mta1.adelphia.net [64.8.50.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90E543F93 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:25:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta1.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030618172803.BJLA25556.mta1.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com> for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:28:03 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:25:26 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> In-Reply-To: <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:25:28 -0000 Pete Ehlke wrote: > On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 10:12:53AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >>At the time, her squeeze was Mike Smith, who worked for Walnut Creek. I >>haven't seen her since the Monterey BSDCon, so I have no idea what she's up to >>now. > > I used to see her on the street outside 650 Townsend when both linuxcare > (where she worked) and shockwave (where I did) were both there, and the > building's fire alarm system would go off a couple of times a week. Then > linuxcare went south, and so did shockwave, and The Great Scattering > happened. NFC whatever happened to her. It's probably for the better anyway. She's likely to just ignore me like the rest of the women I approach. I can hardly blame her, but you'd think the women who actually post personal ads would respond to me. My opening lines can't be that bad, can they? Here's my ad: "Foul-mouthed, compulsive male seeks gorgeous female who grocks pointers and encyrption math. Must enjoy spending long hours in dark rooms coding until her eyes hurt, then be overcome with the desire to mountain-bike for miles on end until she can no longer stand. Women with previous modelling experience who look good in swimsuits preferred. Money and expensive toys are a plus." I'm thinking about changing it a bit. Perhaps I'm too picky ... I mean, as I grow older (and more desperate) I'm starting to learn that just because she's confused by pointers doesn't mean she can't write useful code. I mean, many of the high-level languages don't even use pointers, right? -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 10:33:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 672CA37B404 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bastet.rfc822.net (bastet.rfc822.net [64.81.113.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892E243FBD for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:33:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pde@bastet.rfc822.net) Received: by bastet.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5FE199F08A; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:36:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:36:37 -0500 From: Pete Ehlke To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030618173637.GB32151@rfc822.net> References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:33:12 -0000 On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 01:25:26PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > confused by pointers doesn't mean she can't write useful code. I mean, many > of the high-level languages don't even use pointers, right? > I've heard this, as well. I don't trust any of them. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 10:34:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2508F37B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A75343FBD for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:34:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfj3r.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.204.123] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Sgoq-0006gn-00; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:34:01 -0700 Message-ID: <3EF0A244.24D5E1C2@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:32:52 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> <3EF02D44.EF07CE6E@mindspring.com> <3EF073EB.9010206@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a41dee0f044eaf2ade0b60d085f5ce68c6666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Advice on consulting (was: Re: Advice on how to straighten out acrappy ISP) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:34:06 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > I just don't understand why I have to > pay for the service, then go out of my way to actually get it to > work. I must be a shitty salesman, as I know lots of companies that > have things broken, yet don't need anyone to fix them. OK, this is going to be a long response, since you have related it to your recent attempts to break into the consulting business... -- Up front: you were not in a consulting relationship with your ISP, you were in a customer relationship. You didn't show up at their door, and you were attempting to play the "squeaky wheel" card, rather than legitimately attempting in any way that had the potential for success to obtain their business and solve the problem at the same time. You can use these tactics, which, while legal and ethical, amount to economic blackmail in the limit ...or an education for them: a happy customer tells, on average, 3 people; an unhappy one tells on average 20 people. In a business where word of mouth is a factor in future business (e.g. you must rely on repeat sales or patronage), it's generally worth taking the short term loss for the long term gain. -- On to consulting... There is at least a minor amount of salesmanship involved, but that can be learned. Worst case, take a sales job, where you work on commission, the customers are handed out round-robin or otherwise allocated on a basis other than "first vulture to swoop down on potential customer", and there are older sales guys around who will feel enough pain at a poor job that one will take you under their wing. And then learn sales. Probably that's a too drastic approach that's overkill for the situation, however, unless you really, really suck at selling yourself. Any commercial transaction has to be win/win for everyone to be satisfied with it, and everyone must be satisfied in order to be able to call it successful. In terms of "lots of companies have things broken, yet don't need anyone to fix them", if you are selling "fixit services", then you need to stop thinking like an engineer for a minute, and start thinking like your potential customer. Your customer most likely realizes what's broken, and could probably tell you 10 more things that you don't know about(*) that were more pressing. The first step in doing this is to realize that business has very little to do with technical merits, even if it's nominally a technical business, such as an ISP. It's about cost/benefit calculations. If something costs more to leave alone than it costs to change, then it will be changed. This is true of any good business; excellent businesses will have some additional reluctance to change. This is because they will also consider the time value of money for the cost of making the change, and will make the decision on that basis. For example, take your ISP. Say it would cost them $5,000 to make the fix, and that this will result in them getting a 3% return over 6 months (e.g. the will lose $150 less in terms of amortized customer losses because of the problem, compared to normal customer attrition to broadband, wireless, etc.). Now the question is not whether or not they want that extra 3% (they certaily do), but whether or not there is something else that they can do with the $5,000 that will net them say a 6% return, or a 17% return, over the same period. If there is, that $5,000 means $850; so there is a net loss of $700 in terms of time value of money for fixing the problem vs. doing whatever else they could have done with the money. Your job in these situations is to provide the highest time value for the money that you are asking them to spend, compared to all their other options. Now realize that you also don't have an existing business supplier relationship with them, and that this increases their perceived risk. They take their perceived percentage chance that you will "flake on them" (fail to provide the services) and they have to calculate their real rate of return, rather than their internal rate of return, on that basis. So the calculation changes. Let's say you aren't incorporated, they don't know you from Adam (you are cold-calling them), and you haven't established an industry reputation from which you can either draw local referrals, or you can draw referrals in their market or market segment; but lets say you have the necessary paper credentials. They calculate your chances of "flaking" at 30%. Here's the calculation, if you convince them of a 17% IRR (internal rate of return): 17% * (100% - 30%) = 11.9% ...so they better not have better than 11.9% return on some other deal, if you want to get the work. You can raise their perceived value for the work by dropping your contract rates, with the understanding that you are doing it to get your foot in the door -- that they will allow you to use them as a referral account -- and not because you value yourself lower, or because you were trying to high-ball them before. They will understand that you are ofsetting the 30% value by increasing the 17% value, rather than perceiving the overallcost/value ratio as being less than they tought (the value was 117%; if you lower their perception of the value, then you lower the 17% number without geting anything in return). And that's my sermon on that subject. -- (*) Let them; you will likely find yourself doing some or all of that work, in the customer's priority order, if you are willing to shut up, listen to them, take good mental notes the first time through their list, and then offer to fix them. Mental notes are important, because you are about to turn a casual conversation into a negotiation, and they will clam up if you start taking paper notes on their problems, since that's sensitive information. There's time for paper notes later, in the Statement Of Work Negotiation. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 10:37:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328C537B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.213.64.2] (firewall.tiadon.com [204.213.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F5FF43FB1 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:37:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from rmc.tiadon.com by [204.213.64.2] ESMTP; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:35:05 -0500 Received: from applications.tiadon.com (mail.tiadon.com [172.16.18.172]) by bcec01.tiadon.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id M49FN337; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:37:20 -0500 Received: from firewall.tiadon.com ([204.213.65.123]) by applications.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:37:20 -0500 Received: from [204.213.65.123] by firewall.tiadon.com via smtpd (for mail.tiadon.com [172.16.18.172]) with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:35:01 -0500 Message-ID: <007d01c335c0$2fa6cf40$7b41d5cc@nitanjared> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Bill Moran" , References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com><200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:36:31 -0500 Organization: DaleCo, S.P.---"the solutions people" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:37:24 -0000 http://getyourgeek.freewebsitehosting.com/signup.htm Nyuk, nyuk... kdk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Moran" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 12:25 PM Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? > Pete Ehlke wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 10:12:53AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > > >>At the time, her squeeze was Mike Smith, who worked for Walnut Creek. I > >>haven't seen her since the Monterey BSDCon, so I have no idea what she's up to > >>now. > > > > I used to see her on the street outside 650 Townsend when both linuxcare > > (where she worked) and shockwave (where I did) were both there, and the > > building's fire alarm system would go off a couple of times a week. Then > > linuxcare went south, and so did shockwave, and The Great Scattering > > happened. NFC whatever happened to her. > > It's probably for the better anyway. She's likely to just ignore me like > the rest of the women I approach. > > I can hardly blame her, but you'd think the women who actually post personal > ads would respond to me. My opening lines can't be that bad, can they? > > Here's my ad: > "Foul-mouthed, compulsive male seeks gorgeous female who grocks pointers and > encyrption math. Must enjoy spending long hours in dark rooms coding until > her eyes hurt, then be overcome with the desire to mountain-bike for miles > on end until she can no longer stand. Women with previous modelling experience > who look good in swimsuits preferred. Money and expensive toys are a plus." > > I'm thinking about changing it a bit. Perhaps I'm too picky ... I mean, as I > grow older (and more desperate) I'm starting to learn that just because she's > confused by pointers doesn't mean she can't write useful code. I mean, many > of the high-level languages don't even use pointers, right? > > -- > Bill Moran > Potential Technologies > http://www.potentialtech.com > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 10:54:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A41E237B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01CB943FB1 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:54:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfj3r.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.204.123] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Sh8t-00065q-00; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:54:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3EF0A71E.648498C8@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:53:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pete Ehlke References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <20030618173637.GB32151@rfc822.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e722c63eba0fa68b4697debc858556b7a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:54:53 -0000 Pete Ehlke wrote: > On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 01:25:26PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > > confused by pointers doesn't mean she can't write useful code. I mean, many > > of the high-level languages don't even use pointers, right? > > I've heard this, as well. I don't trust any of them. They use pointers. They just don't let *you* use pointers. Mostly because their smarmy designers believe they are smarter than all their users -- after all, if you were smart enough to use pointers, you would have written your own high level language that doesn't permit people less intelligent than you to use pointers and thus screw up software you might want to run some day... 8-) 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 10:59:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9BD37B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta2.adelphia.net (mta2.adelphia.net [64.8.50.178]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D9043F85 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:59:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta2.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030618175938.QNFN1359.mta2.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com> for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:59:38 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF0A88A.6040002@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:59:38 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030618173637.GB32151@rfc822.net> In-Reply-To: <20030618173637.GB32151@rfc822.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:59:40 -0000 Pete Ehlke wrote: > On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 01:25:26PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > >>confused by pointers doesn't mean she can't write useful code. I mean, many >>of the high-level languages don't even use pointers, right? > > I've heard this, as well. I don't trust any of them. Hmmm ... languages without pointers shouldn't segfault, should they? And yet, yesterday, through the wee hours and into today I've managed to accidentally make perl segfault dozens of times. I think you may be right. Unless you're speaking of not trusting women, then I don't really know. (It's amazing how quickly a sloppily written perl script can eat up 384M of RAM, 700M of swap and fall over dead! Boy, these newer computers are fast!) -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 11:04:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5B337B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bastet.rfc822.net (bastet.rfc822.net [64.81.113.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F3AA43F75 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:04:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pde@bastet.rfc822.net) Received: by bastet.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3D41E9F162; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:07:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:07:37 -0500 From: Pete Ehlke To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030618180737.GA32363@rfc822.net> References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030618173637.GB32151@rfc822.net> <3EF0A88A.6040002@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EF0A88A.6040002@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:04:11 -0000 On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 01:59:38PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > > (It's amazing how quickly a sloppily written perl script can eat up 384M > of RAM, 700M of swap and fall over dead! Boy, these newer computers are > fast!) > What's even more amazing is how quickly even the most carefully, tightly crafted java script (yes, script. java is *interpreted*, dammit) can eat up 384 Mb of RAM. "An 11 Mb RSS and 10 second startup time just to say 'Hello world'. That's not too bad, really, is it?" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 11:25:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 638D937B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta7.adelphia.net (mta7.adelphia.net [64.8.50.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DEB343F85 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:25:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta7.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030618182524.XNPL1347.mta7.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 14:25:24 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF0AE94.8020508@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 14:25:24 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <3EEFC568.70900@potentialtech.com> <20030618105019.GR20204@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EF07317.4060307@potentialtech.com> <20030618143744.GZ20204@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EF083B6.8070902@potentialtech.com> <20030618160804.GB20204@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030618160804.GB20204@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Brad Knowles cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advice on how to straighten out a crappy ISP X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:25:26 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 05:37:24PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > >> The best solution may be to set up your own neighborhood co-op >>ISP. Get together with the other people in the area, and offer to >>help provide Internet access to them. Even if you can't get SDSL, >>you should be able to get a T-1 or fractional T-1, which you could >>then share with your neighbors via 802.11b or 802.11g. I'm considering this now that you made the suggestion. I called to get some cost estimates on a T1 or fractional, they're going to call back. > I was actually about to write back to Bill then and suggest the same thing > to him. Setting up an ISP is not only quite good fun, sharpens the skills, > but in an area with little competition like Bill's is likely to be > profitable. Also, quite straight forward for somebody with the skills. The > only thing I would do, is spend more time learning RADIUS before starting > out than I did the last time I was in a similar position... the tools are > better now though, anyway... I'm already familiar with RADIUS. I worked for an ISP a few years ago that went out of business. More of that ... >> You could then look at additional options for high-bandwidth (but >>high latency) downstream access such as satellite (with asymmetric >>routing via your T-1/Frac. T-1), or other alternative additional >>feeds. > > Satellite should be available everywhere below Alaska, and is quite cheap. I > know a lot of smaller ISPs use it purely for Usenet feeds, so as to not clog > up their 256Kb leased line back to the city... > > Of course, contrary to popular belief, here in the UK where the > neighbourhoods are all *VERY* old, we seem to have finally got a clue and > DSL is available in all cities, most towns, and even in the smallest village > you can get a 2Mb/sec frame relay (for $$$$$) if you want it... in fact, one > place I worked was in a hamlet and we had several 155Mb/sec links over SDH, > 34Mb/sec microwave, 34Mb/sec backup frame relay... and that was some 8 miles > from the nearest town of any size. See ... I'm not explaining myself well. We're not talking about a town or city ... or even a village. This a neighborhood, and by luck or whaterver, it's a crappy neighborhood. The house I live in is of undetermined age. We do know that it's the oldest house in the neighborhood. It used to be a horse farm. when my grandparents moved into the house down the street, the road wasn't even paved. In the first few years when my mother was young, the horse farm was bought and the land divided into a housing plan. They build housing plans in little over a year around here. This was around the 50s or so. Later the house passed on to my parents and I grew up here, and when I started my business and needed some financial relief, I moved back into my old room. Now, Plum Borough (right outside of Pittsburgh) is growing like mad. When I was young, there was my housing plan and farms all around us. Most of those farms have been replace with new housing plans in the last 20 years ... and they have new homes and access to everything (2 or 3 differen't cable providers competing sometimes!) So, putting up the co-op would only be practical for the very local neighborhood I live in. The population in this plan is also very old ... many are retired, I don't know how well it will be recieved. Regardless, I'm going to meander around the neighborhood this weekend and see how many people would be interested. As a side note, I worked for an ISP who tried to do this in Greensburg, PA, where there really wasn't any competition at the time. Makes me nervious. Couple of years ago. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 12:00:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD72A37B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (73.Red-213-97-200.pooles.rima-tde.net [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BDF643F75 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:00:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org) Received: from scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org (scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org [192.168.100.1]) by mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A36C631C0A for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:00:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 20:59:57 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20030618205957.60223a73.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20030618180737.GA32363@rfc822.net> References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030618173637.GB32151@rfc822.net> <3EF0A88A.6040002@potentialtech.com> <20030618180737.GA32363@rfc822.net> Organization: Energyhq X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.jU0Aiz84nbfO?4" Subject: Java (was: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper??) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 19:00:06 -0000 --=.jU0Aiz84nbfO?4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:07:37 -0500 Pete Ehlke wrote: > What's even more amazing is how quickly even the most carefully, > tightly crafted java script (yes, script. java is *interpreted*, > dammit) can eat up 384 Mb of RAM. Hmm, have you ever heard of JIT compilers? The gcc guys also have the gcj project, but I'm not up to date on its status. > "An 11 Mb RSS and 10 second startup time just to say 'Hello world'. > That's not too bad, really, is it?" I know you're joking here, but java shines in the server side in cases where cpu is hardly the bottleneck. Or do you write your business middleware in C? As I got into the subject, java has gotten a bad image partly thanks to abominations like Swing. Those who have played or used those nifty java interfaces like the Volume Manager UI or Forte for java will surely know what I'm talking about. Extremely slow interfaces that love crashing. I'm not really a big java fan myself, but it has its place, and it's not in the desktop IMHO. Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk Tired of Spam? -> http://www.trustic.com --=.jU0Aiz84nbfO?4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+8LawnLctrNyFFPERAtbGAJ0YbHi6/K+9UMV2s5Fcw+4ThQTZvgCgq0YE HT1WYtSUPgx4HpS/tckzbNM= =grPP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.jU0Aiz84nbfO?4-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 12:34:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086C137B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.pcnet.com (mail.pcnet.com [204.213.232.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF54444001 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:34:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: from mail.pcnet.com (mail.pcnet.com [204.213.232.4]) by mail.pcnet.com (8.12.8/8.12.1) with ESMTP id h5IJYCXh000621; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:34:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen X-Sender: eischen@pcnet5.pcnet.com To: Miguel Mendez In-Reply-To: <20030618205957.60223a73.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Java (was: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper??) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: deischen@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 19:34:58 -0000 On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, Miguel Mendez wrote: > On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:07:37 -0500 > Pete Ehlke wrote: > > > What's even more amazing is how quickly even the most carefully, > > tightly crafted java script (yes, script. java is *interpreted*, > > dammit) can eat up 384 Mb of RAM. > > Hmm, have you ever heard of JIT compilers? The gcc guys also have the > gcj project, but I'm not up to date on its status. > > > "An 11 Mb RSS and 10 second startup time just to say 'Hello world'. > > That's not too bad, really, is it?" > > I know you're joking here, but java shines in the server side in cases > where cpu is hardly the bottleneck. Or do you write your business > middleware in C? As I got into the subject, java has gotten a bad image > partly thanks to abominations like Swing. Those who have played or > used those nifty java interfaces like the Volume Manager UI or > Forte for java will surely know what I'm talking about. Extremely slow > interfaces that love crashing. I'm not really a big java fan myself, but > it has its place, and it's not in the desktop IMHO. Your comment regarding Swing seems to support what I've seen here at work. We had two similar GUI interfaces. One was implemented in Personal Java (it had to run embedded under VxWorks) and the other using JDK1.4.x with Swing. I was the lead for the PJava GUI and we ended up implementing a lot of Swing-like API so that we could easily transition to it if it ever became available for our target. A good portion of our application was just the Swing-like classes that we developed. The PJava application ended up being smaller (SLOC-wise) and consuming much less resources and CPU than the other similar-looking GUI implemented with Swing. Of course, we knew we were running embedded and tried to avoid dynamic allocation of things. I wasn't directly involved with the Swing application, so it may have turned out a bit differently had they been more concerned with resource utilization. I did really learn to like programming in Java. I thought the networking was pretty cool too. -- Dan Eischen From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 13:00:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D70437B404 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bastet.rfc822.net (bastet.rfc822.net [64.81.113.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DEEB43F75 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:00:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pde@bastet.rfc822.net) Received: by bastet.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 340689F162; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:03:46 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:03:46 -0500 From: Pete Ehlke To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030618200346.GA32693@rfc822.net> References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030618173637.GB32151@rfc822.net> <3EF0A88A.6040002@potentialtech.com> <20030618180737.GA32363@rfc822.net> <20030618205957.60223a73.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030618205957.60223a73.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Subject: Re: Java (was: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper??) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 20:00:21 -0000 On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 08:59:57PM +0200, Miguel Mendez wrote: > On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:07:37 -0500 > Pete Ehlke wrote: > > > "An 11 Mb RSS and 10 second startup time just to say 'Hello world'. > > That's not too bad, really, is it?" > > I know you're joking here, but java shines in the server side in cases > where cpu is hardly the bottleneck. Or do you write your business > middleware in C? As I got into the subject, java has gotten a bad image > partly thanks to abominations like Swing. Those who have played or > used those nifty java interfaces like the Volume Manager UI or > Forte for java will surely know what I'm talking about. Extremely slow > interfaces that love crashing. I'm not really a big java fan myself, but > it has its place, and it's not in the desktop IMHO. > I'm only kidding a little. As a production/ops person, I've come, over the past five years, to loathe and fear anyone who says "oh, we can do that in java pretty easily". I've seen at least a dozen wheels reimplimented, badly, in java. Java FTP clients that only work with Sun's ftpd. Java logfile parsers. (WHY? perl isn't an efficient text parser?) cronolog (100 Kb RSS) replaced with a set of java processes that do *exactly* the same thing (450 Mb RSS), *simply* because it's java. And what is it about people whose first language is java that makes them think that cd to /usr/local/stuff/java/classes/java/jar/1.1/jar/ and run ./foobar, then cd to /usr/local/otherstuff/java/classes/java/jar/2.4/servers and run ./server to start the FooBarServer (you *have* to be in those directories when you start the processes) to be acceptable instructions to an ops staff? And if you can read http://www.javaworld.com/javaqa/2003-05/02-qa-0523-version.html and still say that java is an environment that's robust enough to write 911 systems or XRay machine controllers in, I want to talk to you about a bridge I have for sale. java is a neat idea. It's just gotten hyped way out of proportion to what it's actually useful for. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 13:03:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959FF37B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A4DF43F93 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:03:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ceren@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 29335 invoked by uid 1114); 18 Jun 2003 20:03:33 -0000 Date: 18 Jun 2003 13:03:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:03:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Ceren Ercen To: Pete Ehlke In-Reply-To: <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 20:03:34 -0000 *snerk* I'm still around. And reading -chat drivel, sometimes. :) After the Great Scattering at Linuxcare (who were actually quite an awesome company, I still keep in touch with my old hardware-lab workmates) I retreated to go re-enroll at UC Berkeley. I helped babysit a large linux cluster there, and worked on my degree again. Unfortunately, once you've gone from student -> real world, the reverse transition is difficult and frustrating. So, I eventually left, dis-enrolled, and soon went to work at Ariba. I've been here going on 3/4th of a year, now, in ProdOps. I wasn't able to make it to the most recent BSDCon, and my laptop is Aqua colored now. But my other machines are generally FreeBSD. Occasionally I'm sent links to forums mentioning me. It's amusing. 15 minutes, and all. :) Going to Germany to kick a disbeliever in the shins was particularly fun. It's a very small world. I'm living in the southbay, and preparing to move back up to SF. Apartment searching is still a pain. As for my general life, I am currently suffering a nice sunburn from a week in the sun, doing Motorcycle Safety Crew for AIDS LifeCycle, a bicycle fundraiser ride from SF to LA. http://www.skelly-space.com/trips/alc2/day_7/pages/P6140034_JPG.htm http://electricrain.com/daniel/pics/2003/lifecycle/DSCN0197.html http://www.skelly-space.com/trips/alc2/day_1/images/P6070004_JPG.jpg Things are well. I've been lucky. - Ceren, who can be found at Defcon, Vegas. On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, Pete Ehlke wrote: > On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 10:12:53AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > At the time, her squeeze was Mike Smith, who worked for Walnut Creek. I > > haven't seen her since the Monterey BSDCon, so I have no idea what she's up to > > now. > > > I used to see her on the street outside 650 Townsend when both linuxcare > (where she worked) and shockwave (where I did) were both there, and the > building's fire alarm system would go off a couple of times a week. Then > linuxcare went south, and so did shockwave, and The Great Scattering > happened. NFC whatever happened to her. > > -Pete > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 13:23:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1006A37B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B698243F93 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:23:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@welearn.com.au) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h5IKNEgC065740; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 06:23:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h5IKN67Z065739; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 06:23:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 06:23:06 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030619062306.D96512@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Terry Lambert , Pete Ehlke , Bill Moran , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <20030618173637.GB32151@rfc822.net> <3EF0A71E.648498C8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EF0A71E.648498C8@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 10:53:34AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: E9A3 7B97 C563 DBB1 979E BC04 D2A2 9DA3 1274 7885 cc: Pete Ehlke cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 20:23:22 -0000 On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 10:53:34AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Pete Ehlke wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 01:25:26PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > > > confused by pointers doesn't mean she can't write useful code. I mean, many > > > of the high-level languages don't even use pointers, right? > > > > I've heard this, as well. I don't trust any of them. > > They use pointers. > > They just don't let *you* use pointers. > > Mostly because their smarmy designers believe they are smarter > than all their users -- after all, if you were smart enough to > use pointers, you would have written your own high level language > that doesn't permit people less intelligent than you to use > pointers and thus screw up software you might want to run some > day... Typical, one track mind :-) Within minutes the facade drops and their basic animal instincts for code take over. They can't help it, you can't fight it. That's why BSD women are more attractive than others. It's the only way the species was able survive. -- Regards, -*Sue*- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 18 13:56:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1861237B401 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.alameda.net [64.81.63.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E1C043FAF for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:56:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ulf@Alameda.net) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 45E1C3A23B; Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:56:10 -0700 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: Ceren Ercen Message-ID: <20030618135610.S33137@seven.alameda.net> References: <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ceren@magnesium.net on Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 01:03:33PM -0700 Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.7-RELEASE-p2 cc: Pete Ehlke cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 20:56:11 -0000 On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 01:03:33PM -0700, Ceren Ercen wrote: > > *snerk* > > Occasionally I'm sent links to forums mentioning me. It's amusing. 15 > minutes, and all. :) Going to Germany to kick a disbeliever in the shins > was particularly fun. To derail the topic ;-): Many in germany need a kick in the shins ... I had to kick too many so I left in '95 and came to sunny california :-) -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 06:19:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C61237B401 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 06:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8A9A43FAF for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 06:19:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19SzKQ-00029h-M6; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:19:50 +0100 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:19:50 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030619131950.GH20204@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:19:39 -0000 On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 01:25:26PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > I can hardly blame her, but you'd think the women who actually post personal > ads would respond to me. My opening lines can't be that bad, can they? You have to do it the way everybody else does it and "adapt". In other words, must relationships start out because they're based on lies and bullshit. > "Foul-mouthed, compulsive male seeks gorgeous female who grocks pointers and > encyrption math. Confident and focused male seeks lady with an interest in intellectual pusuits. [Note - you probably don't want a lady. You probably want a slut if you haven't dated in a while. But that doesn't go down well in ad land.... :-) ] > Must enjoy spending long hours in dark rooms coding until > her eyes hurt, then be overcome with the desire to mountain-bike for miles > on end until she can no longer stand. Should enjoy spending time pursuing isolation and peace, away from the madness of the real world. > Women with previous modelling > experience > who look good in swimsuits preferred. Vanity acceptable. > Money and expensive toys are a plus." Used to travelling to far away places, in style. Trust me. That'll go down well better. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 07:15:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A220B37B401 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host-123.syseng.cableinet.net (host-123.syseng.cableinet.net [194.117.135.123]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D9A43FBF for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:15:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bnazir@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net) Received: by host-123.syseng.cableinet.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 848C6C4; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:17:00 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:17:00 +0100 From: Burhan Nazir To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030619141700.GB58173@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030619131950.GH20204@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030619131950.GH20204@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:15:42 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > > [Note - you probably don't want a lady. You probably want a slut if you > haven't dated in a while. But that doesn't go down well in ad land.... :-) ] > de-lurking here... I almost fell out of my chair laughing! :-) Believe me though, you don't want a geeky lady, I have one sitting opposite me at work and there is something quite not right comming out of a womens lips - "all our base belongs to us!"....shudder! Plus it's highly humbling when she walts over and balzes me with her vastly superior VI skills. re-lurking now -Burhan -- FreeBSD 4.8-STABLE * http://www.freebsd.org 3:10PM up 36 days, 23:38, 7 users, load averages: 0.02, 0.01, 0.00 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 07:53:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1E737B401 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [64.8.50.199]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 073BB43F85 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:53:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030619145306.SIUB1347.mta9.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:53:06 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF1CE52.6010102@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:53:06 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030619131950.GH20204@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030619131950.GH20204@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:53:08 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 01:25:26PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > >>I can hardly blame her, but you'd think the women who actually post personal >>ads would respond to me. My opening lines can't be that bad, can they? > > You have to do it the way everybody else does it and "adapt". In other > words, must relationships start out because they're based on lies and > bullshit. Oh. See, there's where I'm having trouble. I'll have to work on being a better lying bullshitter. >>"Foul-mouthed, compulsive male seeks gorgeous female who grocks pointers and >>encyrption math. > > Confident and focused male seeks lady with an interest in intellectual > pusuits. Ahhh ... so this is how bullshit works ... > [Note - you probably don't want a lady. You probably want a slut if you > haven't dated in a while. But that doesn't go down well in ad land.... :-) ] Slut? Are there any sluts on this list who would care to comment on what I would prefer? >>Must enjoy spending long hours in dark rooms coding until >>her eyes hurt, then be overcome with the desire to mountain-bike for miles >>on end until she can no longer stand. > > Should enjoy spending time pursuing isolation and peace, away from the > madness of the real world. Right! Instead she prefers the madness of my fantasy world ... >>Women with previous modelling >>experience >>who look good in swimsuits preferred. > > Vanity acceptable. Isn't this an understatement? Perhaps "Vanity preferrable." would be better? >>Money and expensive toys are a plus." > > Used to travelling to far away places, in style. > > Trust me. That'll go down well better. Kind of like the sugar you mix in with the poison to kill the taste, huh? -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 07:59:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892E537B401 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta6.adelphia.net (mta6.adelphia.net [64.8.50.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00A543F3F for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:59:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta6.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030619145925.SFTX10267.mta6.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:59:25 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF1CFCD.5000109@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:59:25 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Burhan Nazir References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030619131950.GH20204@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030619141700.GB58173@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> In-Reply-To: <20030619141700.GB58173@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:59:26 -0000 Burhan Nazir wrote: > Paul Robinson wrote: > >>[Note - you probably don't want a lady. You probably want a slut if you >>haven't dated in a while. But that doesn't go down well in ad land.... :-) ] > > de-lurking here... > > I almost fell out of my chair laughing! :-) Almost? I bruised my elbows when I fell. And my sides still hurt. His response was far funnier than my original. (and I thought I was really being funny ...) so I guess that makes me the sidekick? The one that provides the prompting that allows the true comedian's jokes to really be funny. > Believe me though, you don't want a geeky lady, I have one sitting opposite > me at work and there is something quite not right comming out of a womens > lips - "all our base belongs to us!"....shudder! Plus it's highly humbling > when she walts over and balzes me with her vastly superior VI skills. See ... I find that really sexy! I envy you your office seat. Nothing sexier than a woman that can out-think me. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 08:08:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2904637B404 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34FDE43F75 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:08:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19T129-0002Pb-C2; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 16:09:05 +0100 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 16:09:05 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030619150905.GM20204@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030619131950.GH20204@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EF1CE52.6010102@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EF1CE52.6010102@potentialtech.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:08:54 -0000 On Thu, Jun 19, 2003 at 10:53:06AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > Oh. See, there's where I'm having trouble. I'll have to work on being a > better lying bullshitter. Sure. Here's a good example: http://www.otisfodder.com/365days/archive/015.html great plan! > Slut? Are there any sluts on this list who would care to comment on what > I would prefer? We're all sluts. All of us. We're all in denial.... > >Trust me. That'll go down well better. > > Kind of like the sugar you mix in with the poison to kill the taste, huh? Don't be so cynical... -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 08:15:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A22C37B401 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host-123.syseng.cableinet.net (host-123.syseng.cableinet.net [194.117.135.123]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0105E43FE0 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:15:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bnazir@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net) Received: by host-123.syseng.cableinet.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DA90AA4; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 16:16:59 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 16:16:59 +0100 From: Burhan Nazir To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030619151659.GC58173@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030619131950.GH20204@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030619141700.GB58173@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> <3EF1CFCD.5000109@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EF1CFCD.5000109@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:15:41 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > > See ... I find that really sexy! I envy you your office seat. Nothing > sexier > than a woman that can out-think me. I've just had a seriously hot chicken vindaloo for lunch, my seat is anything but enviable... -- FreeBSD 4.8-STABLE * http://www.freebsd.org 4:14PM up 37 days, 42 mins, 7 users, load averages: 0.05, 0.03, 0.00 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 08:48:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA22237B401 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta1.adelphia.net (mta1.adelphia.net [64.8.50.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7F2043FAF for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:48:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta1.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030619155100.DZUL25556.mta1.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com> for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 11:51:00 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF1DB41.1050907@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 11:48:17 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030619131950.GH20204@iconoplex.co.uk> <3EF1CE52.6010102@potentialtech.com> <20030619150905.GM20204@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030619150905.GM20204@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:48:19 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Thu, Jun 19, 2003 at 10:53:06AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > >>Oh. See, there's where I'm having trouble. I'll have to work on being a >>better lying bullshitter. > > Sure. Here's a good example: > > http://www.otisfodder.com/365days/archive/015.html > > great plan! Hehe ... worst of it is, this Eric Weber is probably doing better than me right now, on all accounts. >>Slut? Are there any sluts on this list who would care to comment on what >>I would prefer? > > We're all sluts. All of us. We're all in denial.... I'm not in denial! >>>Trust me. That'll go down well better. >> >>Kind of like the sugar you mix in with the poison to kill the taste, huh? > > Don't be so cynical... I'm not cynical either! -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 14:40:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7175C37B404 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes47.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EACB643F93 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:40:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from viktorlazlo@telus.net) Received: from njamn8or ([207.6.229.118]) by priv-edtnes47.telusplanet.net ESMTP <20030619214047.JLOV17870.priv-edtnes47.telusplanet.net@njamn8or>; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:40:47 -0600 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:40:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Viktor Lazlo X-X-Sender: viktorlazlo@njamn8or.no-ip.org To: Bill Moran In-Reply-To: <3EF1CFCD.5000109@potentialtech.com> Message-ID: <20030619143903.V3717@njamn8or.no-ip.org> References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030619141700.GB58173@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> <3EF1CFCD.5000109@potentialtech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:40:49 -0000 > See ... I find that really sexy! I envy you your office seat. Nothing sexier > than a woman that can out-think me. > > -- > Bill Moran > Potential Technologies > http://www.potentialtech.com I suspect you find an amazingly high percentage of women sexy then! Cheers, Viktor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 16:39:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B84B37B401 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 16:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta1.adelphia.net (mta1.adelphia.net [64.8.50.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 528B443F75 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 16:39:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.161.217]) by mta1.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030619234201.IJYM25556.mta1.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 19:42:01 -0400 Message-ID: <3EF249A4.7080008@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 19:39:16 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Viktor Lazlo References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030619141700.GB58173@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> <3EF1CFCD.5000109@potentialtech.com> <20030619143903.V3717@njamn8or.no-ip.org> In-Reply-To: <20030619143903.V3717@njamn8or.no-ip.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:39:18 -0000 Viktor Lazlo wrote: > >>See ... I find that really sexy! I envy you your office seat. Nothing sexier >>than a woman that can out-think me. > > I suspect you find an amazingly high percentage of women sexy then! Well, yes ... as a matter of fact I ... wait ... hey ... that was an insult, wasn't it? -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 17:04:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0541137B401 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc11.attbi.com (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5396243F3F for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:04:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com ([12.234.22.23]) by attbi.com (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <20030620000405011007vo58e>; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:04:05 +0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:04:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Burhan Nazir In-Reply-To: <20030619141700.GB58173@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> Message-ID: <20030619170340.L19750@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030619141700.GB58173@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:04:07 -0000 On Thu, 19 Jun 2003, Burhan Nazir wrote: > Believe me though, you don't want a geeky lady, I have one sitting opposite > me at work and there is something quite not right comming out of a womens > lips - "all our base belongs to us!"....shudder! Plus it's highly humbling > when she walts over and balzes me with her vastly superior VI skills. And of course, there's the spelling thing... -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 21:52:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D6FD37B401 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from perlpimp.codersluts.net (adsl-33-126-134.asm.bellsouth.net [67.33.126.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B3C243FB1 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:52:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sektie@codersluts.net) Received: from perlpimp.codersluts.net (sektie@localhost.codersluts.net [127.0.0.1])h5K5pLAa048025; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:51:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from sektie@codersluts.net) From: "sektie" To: Burhan Nazir , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:51:21 -0500 Message-Id: <20030620054939.M34057@codersluts.net> In-Reply-To: <20030619141700.GB58173@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030619131950.GH20204@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030619141700.GB58173@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> X-Mailer: Open WebMail 2.01 20030425 X-OriginatingIP: 192.168.0.9 (sektie) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 04:52:19 -0000 > Believe me though, you don't want a geeky lady, I have one sitting opposite > me at work and there is something quite not right comming out of a womens > lips - "all our base belongs to us!"....shudder! Plus it's highly humbling > when she walts over and balzes me with her vastly superior VI skills. Well, someone needs to smash you guys' egos. Wouldn't want ya'll to go around thinking you're superior or anything. ;) Damn anti-feminists. Randi Harper sektie@codersluts.net http://perlpimp.codersluts.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 22:30:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EAFD37B401 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitblocks.com (bitblocks.com [209.204.185.216]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA98543F3F for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:30:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bitblocks.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5K5UNPF082420 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:30:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Message-Id: <200306200530.h5K5UNPF082420@bitblocks.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:30:23 -0700 From: Bakul Shah Subject: FYI: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 05:30:24 -0000 Basically the new license is very similar to BSD's (close enough for me). You may want to read license related threads on comp.os.plan9 to see what others have to say. http://plan9.bell-labs.com/hidden/newlicense.html If they had done this 12 years ago, the free OS landscape would've been very different. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 22:36:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0336137B401 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35FA343F3F for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:36:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10459; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:36:17 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030619233552.026ae350@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:36:15 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <200306200530.h5K5UNPF082420@bitblocks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: FYI: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 05:36:29 -0000 Cool! It does qualify as a Truly Free (tm) license. --Brett At 11:30 PM 6/19/2003, Bakul Shah wrote: >Basically the new license is very similar to BSD's (close >enough for me). You may want to read license related threads >on comp.os.plan9 to see what others have to say. > > http://plan9.bell-labs.com/hidden/newlicense.html > >If they had done this 12 years ago, the free OS landscape >would've been very different. >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 23:00:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213DE37B401 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87D7743F3F for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:00:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-uinj93o.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.164.120] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19TEwC-0001FC-00; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:59:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3EF2A296.3C08D243@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:58:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Linimon References: <20030618174733.GC10127@over-yonder.net> <20030618190032.GG10127@over-yonder.net> <3EF1617F.C1EC5C12@mindspring.com> <200306191434.00922.linimon@lonesome.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43e56f85eb96dc12cb3fa49d4ed8bea99350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: Congratulations Terry! (was: Re: Meta: explain what where when?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 06:00:01 -0000 Mark Linimon wrote: > In fact, this total is almost twice as many as the next two posters > who are exactly tied at 568. > > For comparison purposes, Poul-Henning comes in with a mere > 283 posts, making your own postings more than 3 times as frequent. > > I'm too amazed by this to even comment on the above quoted > paragraph. I'll comment: you are obviously not as fanatically dedicated to FreeBSD as I am, and you are apparently counting -chat postings. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 19 23:47:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA02337B401 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anchor-post-39.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-39.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17CDA43F3F for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:47:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk) Received: from caomhin.demon.co.uk ([62.49.21.186]) by anchor-post-39.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #2) id 19TFgT-0001GP-0U; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:47:42 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:43:23 +0100 To: Bill Moran From: Kevin Golding References: <3EF061D9.7000609@potentialtech.com> <200306181612.KAA21256@lariat.org> <20030618165119.GA31988@rfc822.net> <3EF0A086.6000103@potentialtech.com> <20030619131950.GH20204@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030619141700.GB58173@host-123.syseng.cableinet.net> <3EF1CFCD.5000109@potentialtech.com> In-Reply-To: <3EF1CFCD.5000109@potentialtech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd daemon chick wallpaper?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 06:47:44 -0000 In article <3EF1CFCD.5000109@potentialtech.com>, Bill Moran writes >His response was far funnier than my original. (and I thought I was really >being funny ...) so I guess that makes me the sidekick? The one that provides >the prompting that allows the true comedian's jokes to really be funny. The straight man? :-) Kevin -- kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 00:00:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F70337B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F00C43F75 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:00:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5K70d1f007050; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:00:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h5K70dlw007049; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:00:39 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h5K6tlHh035496; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:55:47 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200306200655.h5K6tlHh035496@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:58:46 PDT." <3EF2A296.3C08D243@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:55:47 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO,PLING_QUERY, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Congratulations Terry! (was: Re: Meta: explain what where when?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:00:41 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > > I'm too amazed by this to even comment on the above quoted > > paragraph. > > I'll comment: you are obviously not as fanatically dedicated > to FreeBSD as I am, and you are apparently counting -chat > postings. Why does having less postings than you make him less dedicated? Why do you consider this obvious? Why is counting chat@ in the set of "FreeBSD mailing lists" worthy of mention? M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 00:49:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66FA437B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D65C443F93 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:49:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-uinj93o.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.164.120] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19TGeh-0004QG-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:49:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3EF2BC42.D6F9D3AC@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:48:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org References: <200306200530.h5K5UNPF082420@bitblocks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4f4ee093e6d30387e7a2eb2fd8fecd2cd387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Subject: Re: FYI: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:49:57 -0000 Bakul Shah wrote: > Basically the new license is very similar to BSD's (close > enough for me). You may want to read license related threads > on comp.os.plan9 to see what others have to say. > > http://plan9.bell-labs.com/hidden/newlicense.html > > If they had done this 12 years ago, the free OS landscape > would've been very different. It is not clear to me that in (2)(a) "in source code and object code form" that the "and" could not be construed to require source distribution. It also seems that (3)(A)(b) might be construed as "viral", but it does not seem that it would be an offer of source. The patent indeminification is something that most O.S. licenses forget to touch on. A number of the terms seem to be designed to avoid the "SCO claims it owns everything" problem; however, they appear to assume both that (1) all contributions are in good faith, rather than done maliciously to contaminate the code, and (2) that such contamination won't get into the source tree accidently, and (3) that a commercial employee making contributions has the right under contract with, or the explicit approval of, his or her employer to make said contribution. The indemnification terms for "Commercial Distributors" vs. the controbutors will probably discourage commercial distribution, except by companies with deep pockets, or who are willing to accept potentially significant risk. All in all, this is in fact freer than the BSD license, from an other-than-commercial perspective, since they permit distribution of derivative works under the distributors license, so long as the conditions in (3)(A)(c)(i-iii) and (3)(B) involving additional warrants are complied with by the distributor. If they could clarify the specific issues noted above to mean what they appear to intend them to mean, then this is a rather decent license. Worst case, it offers an alternative to the "UNIX contaminated code" as a starting point, should it come down to that. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 01:46:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B6637B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 01:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7651343F93 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 01:46:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-uinj93o.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.164.120] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19THXp-0004kz-00; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 01:46:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3EF2C949.6D176439@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 01:43:53 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray References: <200306200655.h5K6tlHh035496@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a463f9e0c5b10abbcd0fd85542856cdcc73ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Congratulations Terry! (was: Re: Meta: explain what where when?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:46:57 -0000 Mark Murray wrote: > > > I'm too amazed by this to even comment on the above quoted > > > paragraph. > > > > I'll comment: you are obviously not as fanatically dedicated > > to FreeBSD as I am, and you are apparently counting -chat > > postings. > > Why does having less postings than you make him less dedicated? It doesn't. I said that tongue-in-cheek. He was attempting to draw an ironic parallel between my statements there, and my posting history. His parallel was not apt, so I was ironic back to him. > Why do you consider this obvious? It was irony. > Why is counting chat@ in the set of "FreeBSD mailing lists" worthy > of mention? Because I post a lot to chat, relative to other lists, and he was counting total postings. Chat may as well be "IRC for people who are not IRC weenies". Consider what the relative numbers for everyone would be, if we were to take all of their blocks of communications in all forums related to FreeBSD into account and add them together. My numbers on -chat would be comparatively high, and my numbers on IRC channels would be zero, and on other non-@freebsd.org mailing lists would be at or near zero, depending on the forum, and in the cases they were non-zero, they would 99.99% be followups to crossposts that I didn't initiate. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 04:27:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC7537B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 04:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk (smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.213.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F6743FB1 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 04:27:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sphaleotas@blueyonder.co.uk) Received: from pbncomputer ([213.48.230.31]) by smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:26:17 +0100 Message-ID: <003801c3371e$757ed9e0$1fe630d5@pbncomputer> From: "Michael Carr" To: References: <200306200530.h5K5UNPF082420@bitblocks.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:23:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jun 2003 11:26:17.0947 (UTC) FILETIME=[C45CD2B0:01C3371E] Subject: Re: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:27:21 -0000 > Basically the new license is very similar to BSD's Theo disagrees: https://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2003-June/025148.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 04:58:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7006537B405 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 04:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0322F43FAF for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 04:58:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from tower.berklix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h5KBwBr6032919 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:58:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.org) Received: (from jhs@localhost) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h5KBw2CC032918; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:58:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:58:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Julian Stacey Message-Id: <200306201158.h5KBw2CC032918@tower.berklix.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Fcc: sent-mail Subject: Re: English Police Officers (was Re: Interview in Byte with Chri X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:58:10 -0000 s Sontag/SCO and FUD relating toBSDsettlement agreement) From: "Julian Stacey" Organization: http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/vsl/ In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:12:00 BST." <20030620101200.GA14047@iconoplex.co.uk> > Sorry to go off on a tangent (follow-up set to -chat), but as somebody known > to be English, I have to defend (if that's the right word) the nastiness of > my local law enfocement officers. Scary statistics. PS I'm English but live in Munich, I got tired of my job in London, well and of London actually, but unlike Dr Johnson's supposition, not tired of life. We get the odd nasty phenomena here too. Humanity has common bad & stupid elements, my guiding precept is: beware crowds. Policemen here are never seen on their own, they always go around 2 upward. - Julian Stacey Freelance Systems Engineer, Unix & Net Consultant, Munich. Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Schnupftabak probieren. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 05:00:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B570037B401; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 05:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE81A43F3F; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 05:00:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6p2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h5KC09e7097506; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:00:10 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6p2/8.12.6/Submit) id h5KC09sP097501; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:00:09 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:00:08 +0300 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20030620120008.GA97422@nevermind.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: FreeBSD: 10 Years of Rock-stable Performance! Happy Birthday, FreeBSD! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:00:17 -0000 Dear Core Team members, commiters, contributors, and users of FreeBSD! Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group is happy to congratulate heartily all of you with the 10th anniversary of FreeBSD! We can see a great progress made since June 19, 1993, and we all are happy to realize that FreeBSD is a most solid, fast, reliable, and secure OS ever made. Without any of us such a success story would never be impossible. -- Alexandr Kovalenko, UAFUG founder, for Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 05:00:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7AD937B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 05:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D539243FAF for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 05:00:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19TKZW-0003pd-8q; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:00:50 +0100 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:00:50 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Julian Stacey Message-ID: <20030620120050.GC14273@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <200306201158.h5KBw2CC032918@tower.berklix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200306201158.h5KBw2CC032918@tower.berklix.org> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English Police Officers (was Re: Interview in Byte with Chri X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:00:40 -0000 On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 01:58:02PM +0200, Julian Stacey wrote: > Policemen here are never seen on their own, they always go around 2 upward. Same everywhere. Mostly for evidential reasons - they can back each other up, and if they're being naughty, conflicts in their stories can highlight their evilness when interviewed later. The only policemen I do so walking around on their own, are funnily enough, the guys with the machine guns. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 05:06:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E496137B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 05:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34B143F93 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 05:06:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from tower.berklix.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h5KC6Yr6032946; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:06:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.org) Received: (from jhs@localhost) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h5KC5rTL032936; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:05:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:05:53 +0200 (CEST) From: Julian Stacey Message-Id: <200306201205.h5KC5rTL032936@tower.berklix.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Fcc: sent-mail Subject: Re: English Police Officers (was Re: Interview in Byte with Chri X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:06:33 -0000 s Sontag/SCO and FUD relating toBSDsettlement agreement) From: "Julian Stacey" Organization: http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/vsl/ In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:12:00 BST." <20030620101200.GA14047@iconoplex.co.uk> Damn ! Apologies to all, my previous mail was supposed to be private to Paul R. I clicked too fast ! It was in reply to: Message-id: <20030620101200.GA14047@iconoplex.co.uk> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Oh well, thankfully Paul R had set Reply-to: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org which avoided me mailing hackers@. Unfortunately I don't think I'm subscribed to chat@ currently, so please forgive me posting to an unsub'd list. - Julian Stacey Freelance Systems Engineer, Unix & Net Consultant, Munich. Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Schnupftabak probieren. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 05:22:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56EC737B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 05:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E3E43F93 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 05:22:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19TKuf-000BTU-86 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:22:41 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h5KCMeCl077897 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:22:40 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h5KCMehK077896 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:22:40 +0100 (BST) Resent-Message-Id: <200306201222.h5KCMehK077896@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:21:21 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, grog@lemis.com Message-ID: <20030620122121.GC77621@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Resent-From: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:22:40 +0100 Resent-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19TKuf-000BTU-86*wRyWYkMClwQ* Subject: SCO lawsuit update X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:22:43 -0000 http://www.lemis.com/grog/sco-sontag-16jun2003.html I just read groggy's update to the SCO suit, especially after the Sontag remarks. Well done, grog. I really wonder how such a high profile case as this is being blundered and mismanaged into miserable failure. Reminds me of the OJ Simpson case. One can only hope the courts will see it the same way. NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 07:40:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7259137B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E71143F3F for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:40:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 6505C530E; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:40:51 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Paul Robinson References: <3EEF00E4.9000908@freebsd.mheller.org> <20030617.060806.42773474.imp@bsdimp.com> <20030618023138.GE93137@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030617.204100.122615446.imp@bsdimp.com> <20030618034838.GJ93137@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3EF0331A.2F2CF1DB@mindspring.com> <20030619003054.GC93137@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3EF17471.36CC59B9@mindspring.com> <20030619090332.GO93137@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3EF29286.99CF131D@mindspring.com> <20030620101200.GA14047@iconoplex.co.uk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:40:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030620101200.GA14047@iconoplex.co.uk> (Paul Robinson's message of "Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:12:00 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English Police Officers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:40:55 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > Oh, and in Manchester, some specially trained police have been walking > around with MP5 machine guns, on and off, for at least the last 10 years > that I remember. Something to do with a couple of Irish lads who keep on > trying to kill loads of civilians in offices and shopping malls. But let's > not get into that (5,000 dead so far), the point is, they have the same guns > the British Army carry. And they're scary. Unless I'm very mistaken, the bulk of the British Army carries the Enfield L85 assault rifles, not the H&K MP5 submachine gun. SMGs aren't appropriate for general field use; they are deployed by special forces, SWAT teams and other units that are mostly involved in short close-quarters engagments. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 09:35:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6060F37B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57D2243F75 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:35:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5KGZh1f087441; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:35:43 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h5KGZhfg087440; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:35:43 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h5KGVRHh040809; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:31:27 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200306201631.h5KGVRHh040809@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:40:51 +0200." Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:31:27 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English Police Officers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:35:53 -0000 Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > Paul Robinson writes: > > Oh, and in Manchester, some specially trained police have been walking > > around with MP5 machine guns, on and off, for at least the last 10 years > > that I remember. Something to do with a couple of Irish lads who keep on > > trying to kill loads of civilians in offices and shopping malls. But let's > > not get into that (5,000 dead so far), the point is, they have the same guns > > the British Army carry. And they're scary. > > Unless I'm very mistaken, the bulk of the British Army carries the > Enfield L85 assault rifles, not the H&K MP5 submachine gun. SMGs > aren't appropriate for general field use; they are deployed by special > forces, SWAT teams and other units that are mostly involved in short > close-quarters engagments. Correct, but they call it SA80 or SA80A. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 09:58:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E5637B404 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77C5943FE0 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:58:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.lonesome.com (cs242746-11.austin.rr.com [24.27.46.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F69140C8; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:58:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Linimon Organization: Lonesome Dove Computing Services To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:02:39 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.2 References: <20030618174733.GC10127@over-yonder.net> <200306191434.00922.linimon@lonesome.com> <3EF2A296.3C08D243@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3EF2A296.3C08D243@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200306201202.39090.linimon@lonesome.com> cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: Congratulations Terry! (was: Re: Meta: explain what where when?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:58:33 -0000 > I'll comment: you are obviously not as fanatically dedicated > to FreeBSD as I am, and you are apparently counting -chat > postings. For your second point: it's a simple script and easy to modify, so the totals without -chat are: Terry Lambert posted 817 message(s) on 341 thread(s) (actually this only counts -arch, -current, -hackers, -questions, -stable; and cross-posts would be counted as duplicates. I can provide the code to anyone who want to fix that; it was, after all, a trivial piece of code to implement). As for your first point: it's true that I limit myself to only certain parts of FreeBSD that I consider of particular interest. mcl From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 10:19:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAE5237B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitblocks.com (bitblocks.com [209.204.185.216]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C50343F93 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:19:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bitblocks.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5KHJOPF085654; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:19:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Message-Id: <200306201719.h5KHJOPF085654@bitblocks.com> To: Terry Lambert In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:48:18 PDT." <3EF2BC42.D6F9D3AC@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:19:24 -0700 From: Bakul Shah cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Michael Carr Subject: Re: FYI: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:19:28 -0000 Terry lambert writes: > If they could clarify the specific issues noted above to mean > what they appear to intend them to mean, then this is a rather > decent license. Terry, can you please ask your questions on comp.os.plan9 or the 9fans mailing list? The bell labs folks including their lawyers have been remarkably responsive and it does appear they really *want* plan9 to be free. In terms of indemnification it appears to me they are spelling out in excruciating detail what should be apparent to anyone using any free source. I personally feel more words mean more pain for all (and feel lawyers should be given a "budget" of words to fashion a contract out of) but the intent seems clear to me (but I am not a lawyer etc.). Michael Carr writes: > Theo disagrees: > https://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2003-June/025148.html 1) Rather than take someone else's word for it, you may consider reading and understanding the license yourself. 2) Last I looked, he has not responded to the upgraded license nor rebutted any of the counter arguments. Me, I am an atheoist. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 10:21:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705C337B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E195C43F3F for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:21:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37E423D28; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:21:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Bakul Shah Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:21:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3EF30A72.17426.25BEBCBA@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <200306201719.h5KHJOPF085654@bitblocks.com> References: Your message of "Fri, 20 Jun 2003 00:48:18 PDT." <3EF2BC42.D6F9D3AC@mindspring.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FYI: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:21:55 -0000 On 20 Jun 2003 at 10:19, Bakul Shah wrote: > Me, I am an atheoist. Does this mean you believe there is no Theo? ;) -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 10:25:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 442B837B401; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-104-32.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.104.32]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B83943F3F; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:25:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE2466E40; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 31301796; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:25:40 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030620172540.GA54062@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20030617.060806.42773474.imp@bsdimp.com> <20030618023138.GE93137@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030617.204100.122615446.imp@bsdimp.com> <20030618034838.GJ93137@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3EF0331A.2F2CF1DB@mindspring.com> <20030619003054.GC93137@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3EF17471.36CC59B9@mindspring.com> <20030619090332.GO93137@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3EF29286.99CF131D@mindspring.com> <20030620101200.GA14047@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="17pEHd4RhPHOinZp" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030620101200.GA14047@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English Police Officers (was Re: Interview in Byte with Chris Sontag/SCO and FUD relating toBSDsettlement agreement) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:25:41 -0000 --17pEHd4RhPHOinZp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 11:12:00AM +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Thu, Jun 19, 2003 at 09:50:14PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >=20 > > Like the English policeman, they were alarmed > > when they thought about it, but about all they could contractually > > do was say "Stop! Or we'll ask you to 'Stop!' again!". >=20 > Sorry to go off on a tangent (follow-up set to -chat), but as somebody kn= own > to be English, I have to defend (if that's the right word) the nastiness = of > my local law enfocement officers. I wouldn't worry too much about it, the above is just one of Terry's catchphrases. Kris --17pEHd4RhPHOinZp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+80OTWry0BWjoQKURAomdAKD5zuvHsK1RDe7bsfsDOI5Tt3VGrACfeHVc SlSvNnbFP2kg3zvQI+5mx/Q= =51W0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --17pEHd4RhPHOinZp-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 10:47:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16A4E37B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0732D43F3F for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:47:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h5KHlnMJ017941; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:47:50 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)h5KHlnRL017938; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:47:49 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:47:49 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030619233552.026ae350@localhost> Message-ID: <20030620204653.R24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FYI: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:47:53 -0000 On Thu, 19 Jun 2003, Brett Glass wrote: > Cool! It does qualify as a Truly Free (tm) license. > I don't think section seven (export control) should appear in a truly free licence. > --Brett > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 10:57:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5752937B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451BE43FBF for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:57:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h5KHvGMJ018010; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:57:16 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)h5KHvGqr018007; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:57:16 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:57:16 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Michael Carr In-Reply-To: <003801c3371e$757ed9e0$1fe630d5@pbncomputer> Message-ID: <20030620205611.V24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:57:19 -0000 On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Michael Carr wrote: > > Basically the new license is very similar to BSD's > > Theo disagrees: > https://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2003-June/025148.html > He is broadly right - but note that the licence that OSI approved didn't have (7) yet, as the licence the released under didn't have it yet - lok at the licence diff at : http://plan9.bell-labs.com/hidden/osi-diff.html so they are basicly lying about the licence being OSI approved From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 11:35:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2E237B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes61.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4FA543F75 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from viktorlazlo@telus.net) Received: from njamn8or ([207.6.229.118]) by priv-edtnes61.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030620183558.BTJC8985.priv-edtnes61.telusplanet.net@njamn8or>; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:35:58 -0600 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:35:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Viktor Lazlo X-X-Sender: viktorlazlo@njamn8or.no-ip.org To: Michael Carr In-Reply-To: <003801c3371e$757ed9e0$1fe630d5@pbncomputer> Message-ID: <20030620113500.A3717@njamn8or.no-ip.org> References: <200306200530.h5K5UNPF082420@bitblocks.com> <003801c3371e$757ed9e0$1fe630d5@pbncomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 18:35:59 -0000 On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Michael Carr wrote: > > Basically the new license is very similar to BSD's > > Theo disagrees: > https://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2003-June/025148.html Theo disagrees with pretty much everything. Cheers, Viktor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 12:26:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 309C137B405 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.packet.org.uk (public2-with1-3-cust50.bagu.broadband.ntl.com [80.5.52.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A4243FBD for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:26:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsd-x@packet.org.uk) Received: from xaphod by mailgate.packet.org.uk with local (Exim 4.20) id 19TRWq-000LQw-M0; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 19:26:32 +0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:26:32 +0100 From: Peter McGarvey To: Mark Murray Message-ID: <20030620192632.GA82131@packet.org.uk> References: <200306201631.h5KGVRHh040809@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200306201631.h5KGVRHh040809@grimreaper.grondar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: English Police Officers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 19:26:44 -0000 * Mark Murray [2003-06-20 17:42:45 BST]: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > Paul Robinson writes: > > > Oh, and in Manchester, some specially trained police have been walking > > > around with MP5 machine guns, on and off, for at least the last 10 years > > > that I remember. Something to do with a couple of Irish lads who keep on > > > trying to kill loads of civilians in offices and shopping malls. But let's > > > not get into that (5,000 dead so far), the point is, they have the same guns > > > the British Army carry. And they're scary. > > > > Unless I'm very mistaken, the bulk of the British Army carries the > > Enfield L85 assault rifles, not the H&K MP5 submachine gun. SMGs > > aren't appropriate for general field use; they are deployed by special > > forces, SWAT teams and other units that are mostly involved in short > > close-quarters engagments. > > Correct, but they call it SA80 or SA80A. Or, more often, useless piece of junk. But IIRC, the SAS do use HK MP5s. > > M > -- > Mark Murray > iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- TTFN, FNORD Peter McGarvey Freelance FreeBSD Hacker (will work for bandwidth) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 12:51:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EECD37B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E52243F85 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:51:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from root@localhost) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA16745; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:51:36 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:51:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Glass Message-Id: <200306201951.NAA16745@lariat.org> To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, sphaleotas@blueyonder.co.uk In-Reply-To: <20030620205611.V24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 19:51:41 -0000 OSI approval means nothing. They have "approved" the GPL as being an "open source" license even though it flagrantly violates at least two points of their definition. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 13:16:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E38C37B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.attbi.com (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6FA543F75 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:16:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-231-65-188.client.attbi.com[12.231.65.188](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <20030620201657013008uqcje>; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:16:57 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h5KKFo9I058620; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:15:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h5KKFhjY058619; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:15:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: chat@freebsd.org References: <200306200530.h5K5UNPF082420@bitblocks.com> <3EF2BC42.D6F9D3AC@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Jun 2003 13:15:43 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3EF2BC42.D6F9D3AC@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <7g7k7g33ps.k7g@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 81 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: FYI: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:16:58 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > It is not clear to me that in (2)(a) "in source code and object > code form" that the "and" could not be construed to require > source distribution. I'll admit that English has "and", "or", and "and/or" quite messed up and often lacking clear meaning, strictly read, but I also have no doubt that a court would think that giving someone license to do X and Y gives them them license to do X, license to do Y, and license to do both, in the absense of explicit language to the contrary. In this case, (3)(A) seems to settle the matter: "Distributor may choose to distribute the Program in any form...". > It also seems that (3)(A)(b) might be construed as "viral", but > it does not seem that it would be an offer of source. That makes it no more "viral" than a BSD license or what copyright law requires by default: that the licensor owns copyrights in the program and its derivatives, even if the licensee also owns copyrights in a derivative. I don't see it as an attempt to assume ownership of "contributions", at least based on (2)(a), though it comes close. (The use of "tangible" in (3)(A)(b) seems wrong; I suspect that anything distributable is considered "tangible" in legal jargon. But IANAL.) BUT other parts of the license appear (after a brief look) to make the license worse than "viral": the broad and circular definitions seem to make any derivative fall under the definition of "Program" and thus fall under most terms of the license itself, removing any most choice from the licensee about how he wishes to license his "contribution", regardless of the other stuff about a "Distributor's own license agreement", etc. I find this overreaching to make the license highly undesireable. > The patent indeminification is something that most O.S. licenses > forget to touch on. I saw no specific patent indemnification. (And this: The obligations in this section do not apply to any claims or Losses relating to any actual or alleged intellectual property infringement. might even rule it out for the general indemnification mentioned.) The patent-related terms seem over-reaching to me, along the lines of saying "you loose your license if you use Windows". It should be enough for open source licenses to protect the licensed software from patent claims, and should not try to effect "greater" goals, like effectively preventing the enforcement of patents in derivatives, as this license seem to want to do. Software which restricts usage in such a manner, even in a misguided effort to "keep it free", is no more open than the design of a patented hardware widget, as it requires the "payment" of something of value for it's use: a license fee for the widget and a cross-license for the restricted-use software. > The indemnification terms for "Commercial Distributors" vs. the > controbutors will probably discourage commercial distribution, > except by companies with deep pockets, or who are willing to > accept potentially significant risk. It kind of makes sense that a licensee's use (commercial distribution or other!) of the "Program" shouldn't put the no-cost licensor at risk of costs. If the licensee doesn't accept the risks (to the licensor) of his use, then the licensor must do so, and must do so before he even knows who the licensees will be. I agree that these clauses are onerous to most open source licensees, but a whole lot of people are willing to sign up for onerous licenses, as long as there's no immediate cost. > All in all, this is in fact freer than the BSD license, from an > other-than-commercial perspective, since they permit distribution > of derivative works under the distributors license, so long as > the conditions in (3)(A)(c)(i-iii) and (3)(B) involving additional > warrants are complied with by the distributor. See above for why that's way wrong, but in any case the BSDL also permits distribution of derivative works under the distributor's license, so long as the less restrictive (than (3)) conditions of the BSDL are complied with. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 13:20:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A94837B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F0A43FAF for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:20:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5KKKo1f065384; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:20:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h5KKKoRA065383; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:20:50 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h5KKFCHh042755; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:15:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200306202015.h5KKFCHh042755@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Peter McGarvey In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:26:32 BST." <20030620192632.GA82131@packet.org.uk> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:15:12 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English Police Officers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:20:53 -0000 Peter McGarvey writes: > > Correct, but they call it SA80 or SA80A. > > Or, more often, useless piece of junk. That too. > But IIRC, the SAS do use HK MP5s. For urban warfare etc, sure. They also use the M16/M203 for more conventional work. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 15:53:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41F137B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out7.blueyonder.co.uk (smtp-out7.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.213.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F0843F85 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:53:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sphaleotas@blueyonder.co.uk) Received: from pbncomputer ([62.30.26.20]) by smtp-out7.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:53:23 +0100 Message-ID: <090f01c3377e$5f1aba60$141a1e3e@pbncomputer> From: "Michael Carr" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <200306201719.h5KHJOPF085654@bitblocks.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:50:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jun 2003 22:53:24.0001 (UTC) FILETIME=[C1017110:01C3377E] Subject: Re: FYI: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:53:27 -0000 Bakul wrote: > I personally feel more words mean more pain for all (and feel lawyers > should be given a "budget" of words to fashion a contract out of) but the > intent seems clear to me (but I am not a lawyer etc.). But if the intention of the license is to exact strictly minimal obligations from the user, such as the BSD license makes completely explicit, then logically (and not just legally), why should it be necessary to employ something other than a BSD license? The devil would be precisely in the (extraneous) detail ... Regards, Michael From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 21:00:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DCC37B401 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C35D743F3F for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:00:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20303; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:00:49 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030620215933.00b239b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:00:46 -0600 To: Narvi From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030620204653.R24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030619233552.026ae350@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FYI: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 04:00:59 -0000 At 11:47 AM 6/20/2003, Narvi wrote: >I don't think section seven (export control) should appear in a truly free >licence. Why not? It's just a specific instance of the general disclaimer of liability found in many licenses, including the BSD and MIT licenses. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 20 22:36:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA20137B401; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D184C43FBD; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:36:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38ldsqe.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.243.78] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Tb2l-0002PT-00; Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:36:07 -0700 Message-ID: <3EF3EE81.F0FBA805@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:34:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <20030617.060806.42773474.imp@bsdimp.com> <20030618023138.GE93137@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030617.204100.122615446.imp@bsdimp.com> <20030618034838.GJ93137@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3EF0331A.2F2CF1DB@mindspring.com> <20030619003054.GC93137@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3EF17471.36CC59B9@mindspring.com> <20030619090332.GO93137@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3EF29286.99CF131D@mindspring.com> <20030620101200.GA14047@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030620172540.GA54062@rot13.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e0c9e5c319f82be7568955907e12d641350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English Police Officers (was Re: Interview in Byte with Chris Sontag/SCO and FUD relating toBSDsettlement agreement) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 05:36:11 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 11:12:00AM +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2003 at 09:50:14PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > Like the English policeman, they were alarmed > > > when they thought about it, but about all they could contractually > > > do was say "Stop! Or we'll ask you to 'Stop!' again!". > > > > Sorry to go off on a tangent (follow-up set to -chat), but as somebody known > > to be English, I have to defend (if that's the right word) the nastiness of > > my local law enfocement officers. > > I wouldn't worry too much about it, the above is just one of Terry's > catchphrases. "Stop, or I shall yell stop! again" Is actually a "cachphrase" of mine. I attribute it to Bruce Miller, and am willing to accept corrections. In reference to the Lions-UNSW/Western Electric situation, it refers to someone impotent to stop some action demanding that it be stopped. That they are impotent to enforce this request is evidenced by their only recourse being to ask the same thing again, while expecting different results. A scientific perspective would be that you get the results of an experiment, and, because you ask them politely, the laws of God and the universe bend to your will, merely because you are polite about asking them. Western Electric asked Lions to stop distributing, through the college bookstore, his commentary on the UNIX source code, despite the fact that the license that UNSW was granted permitted him such ditribution. The important point here is that the UNSW did not require students to sign a non-disclosure agreement, and therefore any trade secrets, if they existed, were disclosed in the process of publication. This is true because keeping a trade secret requires that disclosure be only to a "select group". The term "select group" has a specific legal meaning, and the failure of W.E. to require this in their license, floowed by the subsequent disclosure, means that any trade secrets were in fact lost: it doesn't matter how a trade secret escapes custody, the mere fact that it has done so renders it no longer a trade secret. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 08:07:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7139B37B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 08:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cvg-65-26-145-190.cinci.rr.com [65.26.145.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2028743F75 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 08:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h5LFAdXk072099; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:10:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost)h5LFAcOB072096; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:10:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:10:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: Terry Lambert In-Reply-To: <3EF3EE81.F0FBA805@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030621110207.J68473@www.bluecirclesoft.com> References: <20030617.060806.42773474.imp@bsdimp.com> <20030617.204100.122615446.imp@bsdimp.com> <3EF0331A.2F2CF1DB@mindspring.com><3EF17471.36CC59B9@mindspring.com> <3EF29286.99CF131D@mindspring.com> <20030620172540.GA54062@rot13.obsecurity.org> <3EF3EE81.F0FBA805@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: English Police Officers (was Re: Interview in Byte with Chris Sontag/SCO and FUD relating toBSDsettlement agreement) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 15:07:57 -0000 On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > "Stop, or I shall yell stop! again" > > Is actually a "cachphrase" of mine. I attribute it to Bruce Miller, > and am willing to accept corrections. "Stop, or I shall say, 'Stop!' again!" -- Monty Python's Flying Circus I forget who was playing the bobby... I also have a faint recollection of a scene where a stereotypical burglar is being chased away from a crime. A policeman yells, "Stop!" and he keeps running. Then the policeman yells, "...in the name of the Queen!" and the burglar stops with this absolutely confounded look on his face while the policeman catches up with him. Curses! Marc. -- Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) www.bluecirclesoft.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 09:38:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C9FD37B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 09:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (tulip.epweb.co.za [196.14.166.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6AF43FA3 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 09:38:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (localhost.epweb.co.za [127.0.0.1]) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5LGcevD018857 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:38:40 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: (from ultraviolet@localhost) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5LGcZF1018856 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:38:35 +0200 (SAST) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:38:35 +0200 From: William Fletcher To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 16:38:39 -0000 --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,=20 What I'm wondering about, is when FreeBSD is going to get=20 get a cryptographically signed ports tree system setup.=20 It isn't a must, I was just wondering other peoples opinions about this.=20 --=20 William Fletcher (ultraviolet) Powered by http://www.FreeBSD.org/ IT Administrator, EPWeb networks. =20 http://www.epweb.co.za/ =20 Tel: +27 (041) 395 6800 =20 Fax: +27 (041) 395 6818=09 Support: support@epweb.co.za --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+9IoKju3fq0dMPxsRAtXlAJ9C1YGk7jiNrDknf+3OZFuW0nq2yACeOn3q Zgq530yAYM47VvKvXH2nDZ8= =wxa4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 09:42:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43DC237B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 09:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bastet.rfc822.net (bastet.rfc822.net [64.81.113.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D240D43FAF for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 09:41:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pde@bastet.rfc822.net) Received: by bastet.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 699CA9F1A1; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:45:29 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:45:29 -0500 From: Pete Ehlke To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030621164529.GA43985@rfc822.net> References: <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 16:42:00 -0000 On Sat, Jun 21, 2003 at 06:38:35PM +0200, William Fletcher wrote: > > What I'm wondering about, is when FreeBSD is going to get > get a cryptographically signed ports tree system setup. > When can you get the code written? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 10:02:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F4737B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A1EA43FA3 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:02:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030621170239.WKRW16215.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:02:39 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:02:38 +0100 To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za, chat@freebsd.org From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 17:02:42 -0000 At 18:38 21/06/2003 +0200, William Fletcher wrote: >What I'm wondering about, is when FreeBSD is going to get >get a cryptographically signed ports tree system setup. > >It isn't a must, I was just wondering other peoples opinions about this. I've been thinking about this for a while; unfortunately I have neither the time to implement this right now, nor enough familiarity with CVS to make it work automagically. If nothing happens before September, I'll probably corner some people at BSDCon to talk about this. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 10:17:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7619D37B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (tulip.epweb.co.za [196.14.166.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF14D43F3F for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:17:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (localhost.epweb.co.za [127.0.0.1]) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5LHHivD018948; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:17:44 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: (from ultraviolet@localhost) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5LHHdef018947; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:17:39 +0200 (SAST) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:17:39 +0200 From: William Fletcher To: Pete Ehlke Message-ID: <20030621171739.GB18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> References: <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <20030621164529.GA43985@rfc822.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="H1spWtNR+x+ondvy" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030621164529.GA43985@rfc822.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 17:17:35 -0000 --H1spWtNR+x+ondvy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jun 21, 2003 at 11:45:29AM -0500, Pete Ehlke wrote: > On Sat, Jun 21, 2003 at 06:38:35PM +0200, William Fletcher wrote: > >=20 > > What I'm wondering about, is when FreeBSD is going to get=20 > > get a cryptographically signed ports tree system setup.=20 > >=20 > When can you get the code written? In all honesty, I'd battle, I'm not saying I couldn't right now. But all my computer equipment is at work, I'm lacking a car (lacking a lice= nse). Rather confined to office hours and thats impossible!. =20 Also, what kind of licensing issues are we looking at? (Software licensing = :-)=20 My computer knowledge isn't up to scratch at all.=20 I'm interested, but, where to start, GnuPG isn't good. PGP? Nothing in our base system we can use?=20 Can't be all that hard though, just chuck another function into whatever does a md5 checksum of the file, or, somewhere near by. *Ponder*.=20 =20 --=20 William Fletcher (ultraviolet) Powered by http://www.FreeBSD.org/ IT Administrator, EPWeb networks. =20 http://www.epweb.co.za/ =20 Tel: +27 (041) 395 6800 =20 Fax: +27 (041) 395 6818=09 Support: support@epweb.co.za --H1spWtNR+x+ondvy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD4DBQE+9JMyju3fq0dMPxsRAujGAJdErFpdkqGp9Cs43twHog+WNomEAKCYtksr HdfP51H/dHH+r891tWREGQ== =fa+M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --H1spWtNR+x+ondvy-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 10:25:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A1737B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0462443F75 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:25:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h5LHPWMJ031916; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:25:33 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)h5LHPWJC031913; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:25:32 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:25:32 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030620215933.00b239b0@localhost> Message-ID: <20030621201747.V24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FYI: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 17:25:36 -0000 On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:47 AM 6/20/2003, Narvi wrote: > > >I don't think section seven (export control) should appear in a truly free > >licence. > > Why not? It's just a specific instance of the general disclaimer of > liability found in many licenses, including the BSD and MIT licenses. > Because without it, a random person outside the US receiving it would technicaly (ignoring cruise missle diplomacy) not be bound by US export regulations. By using code under this licence, it is no longer (as far as that and derived code is concerned) no longer the case. Technicly you would need to check that each and every case of download of such code did not come from teh 7 "terrrist" countries or from companies / persons on the prohibited parties list. This is a non-trivial overhead. > --Brett > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 10:54:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2331C37B404 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (tulip.epweb.co.za [196.14.166.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A81A43F3F for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:54:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (localhost.epweb.co.za [127.0.0.1]) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5LHsKvD019098 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:54:20 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: (from ultraviolet@localhost) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5LHsESD019097 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:54:14 +0200 (SAST) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:54:14 +0200 From: William Fletcher To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030621175414.GC18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> References: <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/Uq4LBwYP4y1W6pO" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 17:54:10 -0000 --/Uq4LBwYP4y1W6pO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > At 18:38 21/06/2003 +0200, William Fletcher wrote: > >What I'm wondering about, is when FreeBSD is going to get > >get a cryptographically signed ports tree system setup. > > > >It isn't a must, I was just wondering other peoples opinions about this. >=20 > I've been thinking about this for a while; unfortunately I have neither= =20 > the time to implement this right now, nor enough familiarity with CVS to= =20 > make it work automagically. > If nothing happens before September, I'll probably corner some people a= t=20 > BSDCon to talk about this. >=20 > Colin Percival One other thing while I'm at making a clown of myself. Wouldn't it be an absolute joke if someone rooted a redhat box on your network, dns poisoned for cvsup.*.freebsd.org and promptly=20 found a way to create a cvsup-mirror on another machine with modified source.=20 They could then trojan /usr/src and /usr/ports and probably gain root on all your machines running FreeBSD, quick and easy.=20 Just wanted the general publics opinion of that too. Anyway, home time, expect interesting responses on monday morning. (Will sign up to security-general again). PS. Some people work for companies which inflict redhat on them. :/ =20 --=20 William Fletcher (ultraviolet) Powered by http://www.FreeBSD.org/ IT Administrator, EPWeb networks. =20 http://www.epweb.co.za/ =20 Tel: +27 (041) 395 6800 =20 Fax: +27 (041) 395 6818=09 Support: support@epweb.co.za --/Uq4LBwYP4y1W6pO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+9JvGju3fq0dMPxsRAkSoAJsFLZtne1SkaOoF6cEVQVe+uE9M0gCfQRTb 9GFZt5MBDpjFwikWTks9+Ic= =NLzk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/Uq4LBwYP4y1W6pO-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 11:38:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91EFA37B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 735E343F75 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:38:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030621183841.DITR28183.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:38:41 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:38:38 +0100 To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za, chat@freebsd.org From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20030621175414.GC18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:38:44 -0000 At 19:54 21/06/2003 +0200, William Fletcher wrote: >One other thing while I'm at making a clown of myself. > >Wouldn't it be an absolute joke if someone rooted a redhat box on >your network, dns poisoned for cvsup.*.freebsd.org and promptly >found a way to create a cvsup-mirror on another machine >with modified source. I'm not sure I'd use the word "joke"... yes, that would definitely be a problem. Another security problem is FTP installs; sysinstall doesn't have any sort of signature verification built in, so anyone doing an FTP install could find themselves installing trojans. The only secure distribution, AFAIK, is the ISO image, because the MD5 sum of that is announced in a (signed) release announcement. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 11:47:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2130837B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitblocks.com (bitblocks.com [209.204.185.216]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80A4E43FA3 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:47:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bitblocks.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5LIlIPF092303; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:47:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Message-Id: <200306211847.h5LIlIPF092303@bitblocks.com> To: Narvi In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:25:32 +0300." <20030621201747.V24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 11:47:18 -0700 From: Bakul Shah cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FYI: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:47:20 -0000 > > >I don't think section seven (export control) should appear in a truly free > > >licence. > > > > Why not? It's just a specific instance of the general disclaimer of > > liability found in many licenses, including the BSD and MIT licenses. > > Because without it, a random person outside the US receiving it would > technicaly (ignoring cruise missle diplomacy) not be bound by US export > regulations. By using code under this licence, it is no longer (as far as > that and derived code is concerned) no longer the case. With or without clause 7, if you are in the US, you _are_ bound by its laws including export control regulations. If you are living outside the US, you are _NOT_ bound by US laws. The plan 9 lawyers are simply making this explicit. If from US you shipped a FreeBSD CD with some prohibited bits to North Korea you are in the same trouble regradless of what the FreeBSD license says. Basically all free software (or may be all software) originating in the US is in the same boat. The way I heard it, shipping bits without any crypto (so that cryto bits can be added later) can also run afoul of the law. If true that is truly frightening:-( The irony is that these laws hurt people in the US more than anyone else. Nevertheless, if the license is the *only* reason you are not using plan 9 and you want to influence the license it makes a lot more sense to discuss it with the plan 9 people rather than here. I do think plan 9 has a lot of very useful things that can benefit *BSDs and think that the license is open enough to start using them -- the only reason I brought this up in the first place. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 12:51:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 113A237B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 12:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A0E243FCB for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 12:51:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h5LJpQMJ032713; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:51:26 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)h5LJpPo6032710; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:51:25 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:51:25 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Bakul Shah In-Reply-To: <200306211847.h5LIlIPF092303@bitblocks.com> Message-ID: <20030621224903.P24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FYI: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:51:37 -0000 On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Bakul Shah wrote: > > > >I don't think section seven (export control) should appear in a truly free > > > >licence. > > > > > > Why not? It's just a specific instance of the general disclaimer of > > > liability found in many licenses, including the BSD and MIT licenses. > > > > Because without it, a random person outside the US receiving it would > > technicaly (ignoring cruise missle diplomacy) not be bound by US export > > regulations. By using code under this licence, it is no longer (as far as > > that and derived code is concerned) no longer the case. > > With or without clause 7, if you are in the US, you _are_ > bound by its laws including export control regulations. If > you are living outside the US, you are _NOT_ bound by US > laws. The plan 9 lawyers are simply making this explicit. > You need to re-read the licence. A licence can (and the plan 9 one does) explicitly require you to comply with the US export regulations. This may not be a valid clause in some jurisdictions, but the fact remains that that is what > If from US you shipped a FreeBSD CD with some prohibited bits > to North Korea you are in the same trouble regradless of what > the FreeBSD license says. Basically all free software (or > may be all software) originating in the US is in the same > boat. The way I heard it, shipping bits without any crypto > (so that cryto bits can be added later) can also run afoul of > the law. If true that is truly frightening:-( The irony is > that these laws hurt people in the US more than anyone else. > Thats largely the problem of the people inside the US - vote for people who can clean up the shop. > Nevertheless, if the license is the *only* reason you are not > using plan 9 and you want to influence the license it makes a > lot more sense to discuss it with the plan 9 people rather > than here. I do think plan 9 has a lot of very useful things > that can benefit *BSDs and think that the license is open > enough to start using them -- the only reason I brought this > up in the first place. > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 13:06:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 693D837B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitblocks.com (bitblocks.com [209.204.185.216]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C0743FAF for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:06:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bitblocks.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5LK6APF092718; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:06:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Message-Id: <200306212006.h5LK6APF092718@bitblocks.com> To: Narvi In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:51:25 +0300." <20030621224903.P24605-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:06:10 -0700 From: Bakul Shah cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FYI: Plan9 open sourced X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:06:11 -0000 > You need to re-read the licence. A licence can (and the plan 9 one does) > explicitly require you to comply with the US export regulations. This may > not be a valid clause in some jurisdictions, but the fact remains that > that is what I am not denying it explicitly requires you to comply with the US export regs. My point was simply that it _does not matter_! *Whether or not a license explicitly says so*, if you are in the US you are required to comply, if you are not in the US, you are not. IMHO it was meaningless to include this clause in the plan 9 license but "it does no harm". Rejecting the license as not open on the basis of this clause also does not make sense. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 13:44:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA23237B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ucthpx.uct.ac.za (ucthpx.uct.ac.za [137.158.128.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A5443F3F for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:44:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwest@ucthpx.uct.ac.za) Received: from mwest by ucthpx.uct.ac.za with local (Exim 4.14) id 19TpDJ-000Fnm-Jw; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:43:57 +0200 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:43:57 +0200 From: Matthew West To: Colin Percival Message-ID: <20030621204357.GA60681@ucthpx.uct.ac.za> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Matthew West cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:44:02 -0000 On Sat, Jun 21, 2003 at 07:38:38PM +0100, Colin Percival wrote: > Another security problem is FTP installs; sysinstall doesn't have any > sort of signature verification built in, so anyone doing an FTP install > could find themselves installing trojans. The only secure distribution, > AFAIK, is the ISO image, because the MD5 sum of that is announced in a > (signed) release announcement. Which is why it's a good idea to purchase the "official" FreeBSD CD set and use that to do your installation, or even just mount it on your local FTP server. However, MD5 sums of the contents of the CDs are available here: http://www.knowngoods.org/ They even have listings for those dodgy RedHat machines. ;-) Other than that, there's certainly something to be said for having a secure, dedicated "bump-in-the-wire" Snort box to watch for suspicious traffic. Of course, all of this only applies if you're really paranoid. :-) -- mwest@uct.ac.za From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 13:49:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC9037B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0975743FAF for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:49:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030621204949.JTGV16215.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 21:49:49 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030621214547.02caec40@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 21:49:45 +0100 To: Matthew West From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20030621204357.GA60681@ucthpx.uct.ac.za> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:49:52 -0000 At 22:43 21/06/2003 +0200, Matthew West wrote: >On Sat, Jun 21, 2003 at 07:38:38PM +0100, Colin Percival wrote: > > The only secure distribution, > > AFAIK, is the ISO image, because the MD5 sum of that is announced in a > > (signed) release announcement. > >Which is why it's a good idea to purchase the "official" FreeBSD CD set >and use that to do your installation, or even just mount it on your local >FTP server. Err... did you read what I wrote? There's no need to purchase the CDs; the MD5 hash of the ISO image is securely published, so you can safely download the ISO image and burn your own CDs. Of course, there are other reasons to purchase the CDs, but security isn't one of them. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 18:18:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8129D37B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (ip114.bella-vista.sfo.interquest.net [66.199.86.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF47043F85 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:18:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5M1INJa060015; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:18:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5M1IIHv060014; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:18:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:18:18 -0700 From: David Schultz To: Colin Percival Message-ID: <20030622011818.GA59989@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Colin Percival , ultraviolet@epweb.co.za, chat@freebsd.org References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 01:18:58 -0000 On Sat, Jun 21, 2003, Colin Percival wrote: > At 19:54 21/06/2003 +0200, William Fletcher wrote: > >One other thing while I'm at making a clown of myself. > > > >Wouldn't it be an absolute joke if someone rooted a redhat box on > >your network, dns poisoned for cvsup.*.freebsd.org and promptly > >found a way to create a cvsup-mirror on another machine > >with modified source. > > I'm not sure I'd use the word "joke"... yes, that would definitely be a > problem. > Another security problem is FTP installs; sysinstall doesn't have any > sort of signature verification built in, so anyone doing an FTP install > could find themselves installing trojans. The only secure distribution, > AFAIK, is the ISO image, because the MD5 sum of that is announced in a > (signed) release announcement. We already have MD5 checksums of each port, so all it takes is to have so@ sign a MAC for the entire ports tree. Now doing something more sophistocated and seamless would be a little bit more effort... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 18:29:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFFE537B401; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (mta07-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.47]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 662A443F75; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:29:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030622012922.NJXP18592.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Sun, 22 Jun 2003 02:29:22 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 02:29:19 +0100 To: David Schultz From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20030622011818.GA59989@HAL9000.homeunix.com> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 01:29:25 -0000 At 18:18 21/06/2003 -0700, David Schultz wrote: >We already have MD5 checksums of each port, so all it takes is to >have so@ sign a MAC for the entire ports tree. Yes, I'm sure the security officers would be delighted to login and enter a PGP passphrase every time someone commits something to the ports tree. ;) > Now doing >something more sophistocated and seamless would be a little bit >more effort... What we need is something integrated into the CVS system which rebuilds the necessary signatures every time the ports tree is modified, and commits those into the CVS tree. Any CVS experts around who could say how to do this? Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 20:36:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A38F337B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (ip114.bella-vista.sfo.interquest.net [66.199.86.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA70643FB1 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:36:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.org) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5M3aRJa060491; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:36:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5M3aPmD060490; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:36:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:36:25 -0700 From: David Schultz To: Colin Percival Message-ID: <20030622033625.GA60460@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Colin Percival , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 03:36:36 -0000 On Sun, Jun 22, 2003, Colin Percival wrote: > At 18:18 21/06/2003 -0700, David Schultz wrote: > >We already have MD5 checksums of each port, so all it takes is to > >have so@ sign a MAC for the entire ports tree. > > Yes, I'm sure the security officers would be delighted to login and > enter a PGP passphrase every time someone commits something to the ports > tree. ;) > > > Now doing > >something more sophistocated and seamless would be a little bit > >more effort... > > What we need is something integrated into the CVS system which rebuilds > the necessary signatures every time the ports tree is modified, and commits > those into the CVS tree. Any CVS experts around who could say how to do > this? You don't even have to do that. The tree just needs to be signed once for every release. Signing it more often requires that the key be online, which is not a good idea from a security point of view. That's why DNSSEC and other protocols that have a signature-based infrastructure allow for offline signing. I don't see why people need to update their ports tree more often than once a release. Granted, anyone who wanted to offer a (less secure) daily port tree signing service or something, they could easily do so with access to cvsup-master. (It used to be you could talk to jdp@ for this; I'm not sure who is responsible now.) Actually, I'm not sure whether cvsup's authentication is one-way or two-way, though. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 20:52:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 636BF37B405; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2C443F75; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:52:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030622035222.MLHR4771.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Sun, 22 Jun 2003 04:52:22 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030622044124.02cc0948@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 04:52:19 +0100 To: David Schultz From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20030622033625.GA60460@HAL9000.homeunix.com> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 03:52:26 -0000 At 20:36 21/06/2003 -0700, David Schultz wrote: >On Sun, Jun 22, 2003, Colin Percival wrote: > > What we need is something integrated into the CVS system which rebuilds > > the necessary signatures every time the ports tree is modified, and > commits > > those into the CVS tree. Any CVS experts around who could say how to do > > this? > >You don't even have to do that. The tree just needs to be signed >once for every release. If that's all you want, download the release ISO image; you can verify its MD5 hash against the signed announcement, mount the ISO, and install the ports tree. >I don't >see why people need to update their ports tree more often than >once a release. Well, there are these ugly things called security bugs. >Granted, anyone who wanted to offer a (less secure) daily port >tree signing service or something, they could easily do so with >access to cvsup-master. True, but that wouldn't be transparent. People would have to tell cvsup to fetch a particular snapshot of the ports tree, to match the most recent signature; much better if they can cvsup as per normal, get the latest versions of everything, and have the signature come along automatically. > (It used to be you could talk to jdp@ for >this; I'm not sure who is responsible now.) cvsup-master is now owned by kuriyama@. > Actually, I'm not >sure whether cvsup's authentication is one-way or two-way, though. Two-way. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 22:59:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9146437B401 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (ip114.bella-vista.sfo.interquest.net [66.199.86.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E6943F75 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:59:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.org) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5M5x1Ja061019; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:59:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h5M5x09C061018; Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:59:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 22:59:00 -0700 From: David Schultz To: Colin Percival Message-ID: <20030622055900.GA60949@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Colin Percival , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030621163835.GA18653@tulip.epweb.co.za> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621175853.02c92e00@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030621193449.02c91ce8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622022111.02c1cdf8@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20030622044124.02cc0948@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030622044124.02cc0948@popserver.sfu.ca> cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Cryptographically enabled ports tree. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 05:59:05 -0000 On Sun, Jun 22, 2003, Colin Percival wrote: > >Granted, anyone who wanted to offer a (less secure) daily port > >tree signing service or something, they could easily do so with > >access to cvsup-master. > > True, but that wouldn't be transparent. People would have to tell cvsup > to fetch a particular snapshot of the ports tree, to match the most recent > signature; much better if they can cvsup as per normal, get the latest > versions of everything, and have the signature come along automatically. Then you have a problem, because you're asking for things to be signed without them being trusted in the first place. Nobody is going to vouch for and cryptographically sign every commit. The FreeBSD Project doesn't even make any guarantees about the security of what's out there in the ports collection already. If you just want to know that the bits you have came from freebsd.org, that's another thing. The technology to do that already exists in cvsup, as long as you trust the mirrors. (Most of them probably don't use authentication right now, but that can be fixed, I'm sure, if enough people are concerned about it.) If your whole point is that you don't trust the mirrors, then maybe you have a case for signing deltas on the master...