From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 2 00:55:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104E716A4CE for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 00:55:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from sentinel.ucr.edu (sentinel.ucr.edu [138.23.226.228]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D70143F85 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 00:55:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from beyert@cs.ucr.edu) Received: from aeonserv.aeonnet (adsl-66-124-165-35.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [66.124.165.35]) by sentinel.ucr.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.1-GA) with ESMTP id ASN05569 (AUTH tbeye001) for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 00:55:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 01:01:36 -0800 From: Timothy Beyer To: chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.5-gtk2-20030906 (GTK+ 2.2.4; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: which make in freebsd? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 08:55:52 -0000 Hi, I was curious, which of the dozens of make programs does FreeBSD use? So far I'm guessing that its imake or pmake, but is it something else? Is there really a generic bsd 'make' program? On another note, what make do you (as in everyone on the list) prefer, and why? I've heard lots of people complain that XFree doesn't use gmake, but I just don't see whats wrong with imake... Of course, all the people who were complaining were Linux users, but this made me curious if there are really some distinguishing features of the gmake that set it above the rest... Or were they just biased? Interested to hear your thoughts on this. --Tim From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 2 05:04:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DBA016A4CE for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 05:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E004C43F3F for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 05:04:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9249B79A8E; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 14:04:22 +0100 (MET) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 2541D9C03E; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 14:04:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id D63EC9BDA9; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 14:04:13 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id A2CA8B825; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 14:04:13 +0100 (CET) To: Timothy Beyer References: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 14:04:13 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> (Timothy Beyer's message of "Sun, 2 Nov 2003 01:01:36 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on dsa.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: which make in freebsd? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:04:25 -0000 Timothy Beyer writes: > Hi, I was curious, which of the dozens of make programs does FreeBSD > use? So far I'm guessing that its imake or pmake, but is it > something else? Is there really a generic bsd 'make' program? imake is not a make(1) implementation, it's a Makefile generator. > I've heard lots of people complain that XFree doesn't use gmake, but I ju= st=20 > don't see whats wrong with imake... Of course, all the people who were=20 > complaining were Linux users, but this made me curious if there are reall= y=20 > some distinguishing features of the gmake that set it above the rest... O= r=20 > were they just biased? gmake is inferior in most ways that matter. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 2 09:24:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1433B16A4CE for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:24:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0BC543F3F for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:24:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2003110217244801300p9q3ke>; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:24:48 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hA2HNQTG096204; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:23:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id hA2HNKAR096201; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:23:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: Timothy Beyer References: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:23:20 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> (Timothy Beyer's message of "Sun, 2 Nov 2003 01:01:36 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: which make in freebsd? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:24:50 -0000 Timothy Beyer writes: > Hi, I was curious, which of the dozens of make programs does FreeBSD use? > So far I'm guessing that its imake or pmake, but is it something else? Is there > really a generic bsd 'make' program? The manpage thrice implies that it is a "pmake" variant. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 2 11:01:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 950A016A4CE for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (zoot.blarg.net [206.124.128.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D65343F85 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:01:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos (dsl-129-176.sea.blarg.net [206.124.129.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 1CEC934427; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosmos (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:01:32 -0800 From: "kosmos" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 11:01:32 -0800 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031102190132.GA9020@dsl-129-176.sea.blarg.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: MLandman@face2interface.com Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 19:01:49 -0000 >>I only have this problem when the destination is so well know that I've long >>since established the optimal way to get there. > >One of the things I love about where I live is that there are back roads. >The straightforward way to get from a to b when it's the highway is >generally only the way I take when there's snow or ice, or a chance of >flooding. Otherwise there are generally back ways, sometimes several >different choices making it easy and interesting to change routes for >variety. Saving a minute or two doesn't come close to the appeal in cutting >the boredom off taking the same route each time. Then again we don't have >what you'd call traffic jams, except if you're unlucky enough to be waiting >for a train so the road's opened up again. :) I spent about 6 years driving to work in a nearby suburb, and the traffic on the interstate would bottleneck every day at the same places for extended spans of time. Almost daily I would find myself, along with every other idiot who expected to go 80 mph, going exactly 0 for long stretches of time. Nothing to breathe but air tainted by carbon monoxide and diesel fumes, nothing to look at but concrete walls, nothing to listen to but somebody else's idea of music. Little can be said about the quality of that experience. So, alternate routes become the standard way to get from a to b for any sort of repeated driving task. I just got up earlier, planned to get home later, and learned to appreciate the countryside. There are not many people who will make this kind of trade-off when they drive to work. At least I don't recall talking to many. Most people just believe the simplest, fastest way is the best. But the truth is it's not always so fast and simple, and offers little in the way of quality. -- Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net I can feel for her because, although I have never been an Alaskan prostitute dancing on the bar in a spangled dress, I still get very bored with washing and ironing and dishwashing and cooking day after relentless day. -- Betty MacDonald From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 2 21:45:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF97816A4CE for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 21:45:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from hammer.dls.net (hammer.dls.net [209.242.10.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED34943FB1 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 21:45:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from emailrob.com (216.145.235.225) by hammer.dls.net (MX V5.3 AnFj) with ESMTP; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 23:44:57 -0600 Message-ID: <3FA5EC15.2C7F1656@emailrob.com> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 23:48:05 -0600 From: rob spellberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: which make in freebsd? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 05:45:03 -0000 why? tia rob spellberg Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > gmake is inferior in most ways that matter. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 00:39:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A1016A4CE for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 00:39:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4442143F85 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 00:39:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE867A05F; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:39:36 +0100 (MET) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id CEC899B9C7; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:39:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id E968595930; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:39:31 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id DEE6CB823; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:39:31 +0100 (CET) To: rob spellberg References: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> <3FA5EC15.2C7F1656@emailrob.com> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 09:39:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3FA5EC15.2C7F1656@emailrob.com> (rob spellberg's message of "Sun, 02 Nov 2003 23:48:05 -0600") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on dsa.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: which make in freebsd? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 08:39:39 -0000 rob spellberg writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > gmake is inferior in most ways that matter. > why? Most noticeably, the lack of .for / .endfor. OTOH, the way loops are implemented in pmake really sucks... DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 06:06:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F43716A4CE for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 06:06:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4DD43FBD for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 06:06:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B59178661; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:06:07 +0100 (MET) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 5933B9C979; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:06:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 76C0A95994; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:06:03 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 6DC7DB825; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:06:03 +0100 (CET) To: "Matthew D. Fuller" References: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> <3FA5EC15.2C7F1656@emailrob.com> <20031103140044.GA4241@over-yonder.net> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 15:06:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20031103140044.GA4241@over-yonder.net> (Matthew D. Fuller's message of "Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:00:45 -0600") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on dsa.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: which make in freebsd? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:06:09 -0000 "Matthew D. Fuller" writes: > I have a few projects going where I've through sheer cussedness refused > to stop using bmake, but need the impaired folks using Linux systems to > be able to build too, so I've ended up writing scripts to either convert > the Makefile into a GNUmakefile, or scripts to take a proto-Makefile and > convert it to both formats. PITA. I believe you can get a BSD-compatible make(1) as a package on most Linux distros - and if all else fails, NetBSD's make(1) is highly portable and easy to build. It differs a little from ours, but not much. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 06:47:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD2316A4CE for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 06:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCCA743FCB for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 06:47:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gh@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-212-172-144.jan.bellsouth.net [68.212.172.144]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FEF6EF2D for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 1F95320F2D; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 14:33:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 14:33:13 -0600 From: "Daniel M. Kurry" To: Colin Percival Message-ID: <20031101203313.GF33954@over-yonder.net> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20031101122917.03141b78@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20031101122917.03141b78@popserver.sfu.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD-related-announcements list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:47:16 -0000 Colin Percival said something like: > Just a wild idea here: It seems to me that there is a need for an > announcements list for items related to, but not part of, the FreeBSD > project. What problem do you percieve with subscribing to list updates individually? > Colin Percival dan From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 06:47:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3404616A4CF for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 06:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB70D43F85 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 06:47:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-212-172-144.jan.bellsouth.net [68.212.172.144]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C95F26EF2F for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 5945920F03; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:00:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:00:45 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav Message-ID: <20031103140044.GA4241@over-yonder.net> References: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> <3FA5EC15.2C7F1656@emailrob.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: which make in freebsd? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:47:16 -0000 On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 09:39:31AM +0100 I heard the voice of Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav, and lo! it spake thus: > rob spellberg writes: > > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > > > gmake is inferior in most ways that matter. > > why? > > Most noticeably, the lack of .for / .endfor. I've always found intense irritation at its lack of ability to apply more than one transformation to a variable, necessitating a whole bunch of intermediate variables. It doesn't use '.'s on various commands like 'include'. It's irritatingly different in the names of some of the special variables... I have a few projects going where I've through sheer cussedness refused to stop using bmake, but need the impaired folks using Linux systems to be able to build too, so I've ended up writing scripts to either convert the Makefile into a GNUmakefile, or scripts to take a proto-Makefile and convert it to both formats. PITA. (those aren't, before anybody asks, general scripts; they only cover the constructs I used) -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 06:47:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B944216A4CE for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 06:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE4143FD7 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 06:47:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-212-172-144.jan.bellsouth.net [68.212.172.144]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C67FB6EF2E for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 3C47720F7E; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:26:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:26:55 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav Message-ID: <20031103142655.GB4241@over-yonder.net> References: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> <3FA5EC15.2C7F1656@emailrob.com> <20031103140044.GA4241@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: which make in freebsd? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:47:16 -0000 On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 03:06:03PM +0100 I heard the voice of Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav, and lo! it spake thus: > > I believe you can get a BSD-compatible make(1) as a package on most > Linux distros - and if all else fails, NetBSD's make(1) is highly > portable and easy to build. It differs a little from ours, but not > much. You can get pmake(1), which isn't too standard, requires you to invoke it as pmake (thus breaking POLA), and (on the systems I've seen it on) doesn't se ${MAKE}, so you're screwed as soon as you try to recurse. All in all, I found it easiest just to write the conversions so that everybody could just type 'make'. Well, except probably a few platforms with their own subtly-incompatible make(1)'s, but they have the fallback of gmake, so... -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 11:27:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F9816A4CE for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net (razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.248]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C3843FB1 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:27:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38ldvdb.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.253.171] helo=mindspring.com) by razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AGkMm-0006JP-00; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 11:27:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA6AC4D.81024BD4@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 11:28:13 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Timothy Beyer References: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4c7b4dd99142209eaf3c4e270d8553bf3667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: which make in freebsd? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 19:27:59 -0000 Timothy Beyer wrote: > Hi, I was curious, which of the dozens of make programs does FreeBSD use? Internally, just "make" (BSD make). In X11, imake, xmkmf, etc.. In ports, it varies; sometimes make, sometimes GNU make, etc.. > So far I'm guessing that its imake or pmake, but is it something else? Is there > really a generic bsd 'make' program? Yes. Yes. > On another note, what make do you (as in everyone on the list) prefer, and > why? BSD make. You can .include rules, so your Makefile's end up being only a few lines, instead of being large. > I've heard lots of people complain that XFree doesn't use gmake, but I just > don't see whats wrong with imake... Of course, all the people who were > complaining were Linux users, but this made me curious if there are really > some distinguishing features of the gmake that set it above the rest... Or > were they just biased? They're not just biased; mostly, they are idiots. 8-). The reason for this is that imake encapsulates the dependencies properly, and the code is portable, whereas GNU make/automake/configure/etc. put the onus on the software. Over time, programs that use these tools to build become less and less portable. So using these programs is a form of Linux advocacy. For a while, Amancio Hasty "rode herd" on several projects that kept becoming non-portable to FreeBSD because of Linux advocacates adding code that would not compile on any platform but Linux. The imake program uses platform feature tests, and then compiles the code with feature declaration macrois in scope, so the code remains portable. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 11:49:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A08716A4CE for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:49:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net (razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.248]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 940D643FBD for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:49:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38ldvdb.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.253.171] helo=mindspring.com) by razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AGkhR-0004e4-00; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 11:49:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA6B14D.863812C2@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 11:49:33 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rob spellberg References: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> <3FA5EC15.2C7F1656@emailrob.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a458b1036e115974f05acf1e5dfcec0729667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: which make in freebsd? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 19:49:22 -0000 rob spellberg wrote: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > gmake is inferior in most ways that matter. > = > why? Bad engineering? 8-) 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 11:59:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED27016A4CE for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:59:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net (razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.248]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C2B43F93 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:59:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38ldvdb.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.253.171] helo=mindspring.com) by razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AGkrk-0007lQ-00; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 11:59:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA6B3C9.C1237143@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 12:00:09 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" References: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> <3FA5EC15.2C7F1656@emailrob.com> <20031103140044.GA4241@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43583f2fc3466ed05d5927433b774a03e667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: which make in freebsd? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 20:00:00 -0000 "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > I have a few projects going where I've through sheer cussedness refused > to stop using bmake, but need the impaired folks using Linux systems to > be able to build too, so I've ended up writing scripts to either convert > the Makefile into a GNUmakefile, or scripts to take a proto-Makefile and > convert it to both formats. PITA. > > (those aren't, before anybody asks, general scripts; they only cover the > constructs I used) You should have just used bmake on Linux... -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 12:04:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06E2616A4CE for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 12:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D73BA43FE9 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 12:04:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-212-172-144.jan.bellsouth.net [68.212.172.144]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29C396EEB9 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 312B620F2D; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:04:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:04:08 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20031103200408.GF12248@over-yonder.net> References: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> <3FA5EC15.2C7F1656@emailrob.com> <20031103140044.GA4241@over-yonder.net> <3FA6B3C9.C1237143@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FA6B3C9.C1237143@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: which make in freebsd? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 20:04:21 -0000 On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 12:00:09PM -0800 I heard the voice of Terry Lambert, and lo! it spake thus: > > You should have just used bmake on Linux... I was being nice. Most Linux systems don't have bmake or pmake or xmake or foomake installed. But they've got GNU make. So does (as far as I can see) Solaris, and it's available on pretty much every system. I can't be arsed to type 'gmake' all the time when I'm testing, and it irritates the hell out of me writing GNUmakefile's because of its shortcomings, so I just write bmake Makefiles and let my scripts do the ugly stuff. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 13:31:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEBFA16A4CE for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from crf-consulting.co.uk (82-44-220-218.cable.ubr10.haye.blueyonder.co.uk [82.44.220.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A7743FD7 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:31:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@crf-consulting.co.uk) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (clan.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.20])hA3LV7td095973; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:31:07 GMT (envelope-from nik@catkin) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) hA3LV7t1085434; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:31:07 GMT (envelope-from nik@clan.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost) by clan.nothing-going-on.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA3LV6m9085433; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:31:06 GMT Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:31:06 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-ID: <20031103213106.GB41848@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> <3FA5EC15.2C7F1656@emailrob.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qlTNgmc+xy1dBmNv" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: FreeBSD Project cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: which make in freebsd? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 21:31:29 -0000 --qlTNgmc+xy1dBmNv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 09:39:31AM +0100, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > rob spellberg writes: > > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > > gmake is inferior in most ways that matter. > > why? >=20 > Most noticeably, the lack of .for / .endfor. No equivalent for .USE, at least the last time I looked, is a pain. cf. http://www.daemonnews.org/199907/managing.html N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --qlTNgmc+xy1dBmNv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/pskak6gHZCw343URAooeAJ46YcIjOBVfLlvlmpCg5VHuUo5M0wCfRho+ Lvc+RLwZB3E0Qib36zYd48Y= =pbHR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qlTNgmc+xy1dBmNv-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 13:36:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 931) id 0AE1916A4CF; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:36:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:36:15 -0600 From: Juli Mallett To: Nik Clayton Message-ID: <20031103153614.A60426@FreeBSD.org> References: <20031102010136.44997855.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> <3FA5EC15.2C7F1656@emailrob.com> <20031103213106.GB41848@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20031103213106.GB41848@clan.nothing-going-on.org>; from nik@freebsd.org on Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 09:31:06PM +0000 X-Title: Code Maven X-Towel: Yes X-Negacore: Yes X-Authentication-Warning: localhost: juli pwned teh intarweb cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: which make in freebsd? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 21:36:15 -0000 * Nik Clayton [ Date: 2003-11-03 ] [ w.r.t. Re: which make in freebsd? ] > On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 09:39:31AM +0100, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > > rob spellberg writes: > > > Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > > > > gmake is inferior in most ways that matter. > > > why? > > > > Most noticeably, the lack of .for / .endfor. > > No equivalent for .USE, at least the last time I looked, is a pain. There are many clever things you can do with BSD make which make life a lot easier (and don't hurt for job security). Last time I tried to do such with GNU make, it didn't work. Many hours were spent trying to get their macro system to generate rule contents, if not rules, in useful ways, to no avail. juli. -- juli mallett. email: jmallett@freebsd.org; efnet: juli; aim: bsdflata; the finer things keep shining through the way my soul gets lost in you From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 15:32:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E2D16A4CE for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:32:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C7743FE3 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:32:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A3B3D28 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:32:19 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 18:32:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3FA69F33.18968.3081A2E7@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20031030173157.GA8122@heceta.db.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Subject: Re: Ottawa (and area) BSD pizza meet X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:32:21 -0000 Correction to location: 280 Metcalfe at Gilmour http://www.ottawaplus.ca/map?mode=geo&id=49236&lat=454158&lon=-756913 My apologies On 30 Oct 2003 at 12:31, Diane Bruce wrote: > Hi, > > For Ottawa and area bsd folk (freebsd/netbsd/openbsd etc.) > > BSD meeting Colonade, Somerset St, pizza+beer, 6pm > Thursday November 6th. > > Cya there.. > > - Diane > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 15:41:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD2F16A4EE for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:41:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from heceta.db.net (heceta.db.net [66.11.169.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D8743FE9 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:41:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from db@heceta.db.net) Received: from db by heceta.db.net with local (Exim 4.20) id 1AGoJx-0007XF-I7; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 18:41:17 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:41:17 -0500 From: Diane Bruce To: Dan Langille Message-ID: <20031103234117.GA28954@heceta.db.net> References: <20031030173157.GA8122@heceta.db.net> <3FA69F33.18968.3081A2E7@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FA69F33.18968.3081A2E7@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1AGoJx-0007XF-I7*KaJM2Hc9RKU* cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ottawa (and area) BSD pizza meet X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:41:39 -0000 On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 06:32:19PM -0500, Dan Langille wrote: > Correction to location: > > 280 Metcalfe at Gilmour > http://www.ottawaplus.ca/map?mode=geo&id=49236&lat=454158&lon=-756913 > > My apologies Ooops. Well, its only two blocks off. If you can see the Public Service Alliance building, you are very close. See ya on Thursday. - Diane From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 18:54:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 160D316A4CE for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1.stradamotorsports.com (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A8AF43FCB for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:54:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from s1.stradamotorsports.com (s1.stradamotorsports.com [192.168.1.201])hA42sZwi003252 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:54:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:54:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-X-Sender: jcw@s1.stradamotorsports.com To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=USER_AGENT_PINE version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Subject: Too Much DNS Traffic / Analysis X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 02:54:40 -0000 I get what I think is way too much traffic on DNS. I recently read about DNS misconfigurations and the trouble they cause. I am suspicious that I am one of the culprits. (I have been running with the same config for a long time. I would mortified to find that my DNS is fubar.) My DNS works. I can query the world and the world can query me. One point of concern is that my name server is behind a firewall with PAT/NAT. In 'ipfw show' I can see that 528 packets came in on smtp. 20 packets came in on http. Something like 40,000 packets came in on DNS in one day. This seems to be way too much DNS traffic for the little bit of use my network sees. Much of what I have read is all about data gathering and techniques for analysing DNS. This stuff is way too technical and not practical. Can any of you point me to a good practical reference on how to be a good net neighbor with respect to DNS? Thanks, Jason C. Wells From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 3 23:47:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA0B16A4CE for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:47:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.sharma-home.net (cpe-24-221-178-208.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.178.208]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F4EC43FCB for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:47:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adsharma@eagle.sharma-home.net) Received: by eagle.sharma-home.net (Postfix, from userid 500) id E335C868A; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:48:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:48:13 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031104074813.GA2567@sharma-home.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: bsd.rpm.mk ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 07:47:18 -0000 I haven't seen much discussion in the archives about using the excellent BSD ports system for the source environment and RPM for binary packaging. I hacked up a very basic bsd.rpm.mk if anyone is interested. -Arun From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 00:40:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5252B16A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 00:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.cyclades.de (mail.cyclades.de [62.225.173.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 017F943FDF for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 00:40:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MH@kernel32.de) Received: from pd9e35f4f.dip.t-dialin.net ([217.227.95.79] helo=kernel32.de) by www.cyclades.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AGwMB-0002KP-00; Tue, 04 Nov 2003 09:16:07 +0100 Message-ID: <3FA75F7F.5020308@kernel32.de> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 09:12:47 +0100 From: Marian Hettwer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031026 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Arun Sharma References: <20031104074813.GA2567@sharma-home.net> In-Reply-To: <20031104074813.GA2567@sharma-home.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd.rpm.mk ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 08:40:24 -0000 Hi there, Arun Sharma wrote: > I haven't seen much discussion in the archives about using the excellent > BSD ports system for the source environment and RPM for binary packaging. > I hacked up a very basic bsd.rpm.mk if anyone is interested. > well, why using RPM for binary packaging ?! If to replace the pkg_* featureset of BSD then please replace it with apt_* from those Debian guys. Anyhow. Just my opinion ;-) best regards, Marian From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 04:33:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5257F16A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 04:33:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from rigel.grass.st (rigel.grass.st [195.197.32.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1407843FB1 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 04:33:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bsdchat@rigel.grass.st) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by rigel.grass.st (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) id OAA80706 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:33:33 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from bsdchat) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:33:33 +0200 From: mika ruohotie To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031104143333.A80253@rigel.grass.st> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Subject: software raid and boot X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:33:36 -0000 hello, some time ago (could be a long time ago too) i remember reading from either current or hackers why exactly software raid is not that good of an idea as a boot-media. (could've been terry explaining this) anyone care to re-explain this, or correct me in case i remember incorrectly. i tried to find what was said, but i wasnt successfull. (i decided this is mostly chat-level thing, even tho i am truly interested from a technical view point) is it possible to even do it with vinum, at some point it wasnt. thanks. mickey ps. yes, i have an argument about this issue with some of my friends who are hard-core linux people... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 06:04:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC4816A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:04:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5724F43FE1 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:04:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pde@ucan.foad.org) Received: from ucan.foad.org (pde@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ucan.foad.org (8.12.10/HIGHWIRE2.0) with ESMTP id hA4E48Pc013297; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id hA4E48SG017560; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:04:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:04:08 -0800 From: Pete Ehlke To: "Jason C. Wells" Message-ID: <20031104140408.GA6133@ehlke.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Too Much DNS Traffic / Analysis X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:04:12 -0000 On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 06:54:35PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > I get what I think is way too much traffic on DNS. I recently read about > DNS misconfigurations and the trouble they cause. I am suspicious that I > am one of the culprits. (I have been running with the same config for > a long time. I would mortified to find that my DNS is fubar.) > > My DNS works. I can query the world and the world can query me. One > point of concern is that my name server is behind a firewall with PAT/NAT. > > In 'ipfw show' I can see that 528 packets came in on smtp. 20 packets > came in on http. Something like 40,000 packets came in on DNS in one day. > This seems to be way too much DNS traffic for the little bit of use my > network sees. > I assume, since you didn't tell us what name servers you're talking about, that you mean ns1.highperformance.net and ns2.highperformance.net. ns2 seems to be dropping queries, and ns1 provides recursive service to the world. Both of these conditions can cause you to handle more DNS traffic than you otherwise would. Rob Thomas' Secure BIND Template (http://www.cymru.com/Documents/secure-bind-template.html) is an excellent concise resource on how to run a good DNS installation, but in the end there is no substitute for _DNS & BIND_, 4th Ed. -Pete From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 07:10:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FCC116A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:10:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.224.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CC3643F75 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:10:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-chat@m.gmane.org) Received: from root by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AH2pO-0000sh-00 for ; Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:10:42 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sea.gmane.org ([80.91.224.252]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AH2Zp-0000OY-00 for ; Tue, 04 Nov 2003 15:54:37 +0100 Received: from news by sea.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AH2Zp-0004ya-00 for ; Tue, 04 Nov 2003 15:54:37 +0100 From: Stuart Krivis Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 09:54:10 -0500 Organization: Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <9sefqvglkk8akc2miq4q6g9shsgv8r6ln3@4ax.com> References: <7915593.1066677341@[192.168.1.13]> <3F94E33C.89ED15BC@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Sender: news Subject: Re: ACAP Server for FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 15:10:46 -0000 On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:41:48 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >jcw@highperformance.net wrote: >> A quick search of "ACAP" in the ports tree yields nothing. Google show >> some talk about CMU ACAP and UW ACAP circa 1998. Does anyone here run ACAP >> to go with their IMAP servers? >> >> (Oh yeah, on FreeBSD hosts of course.) > >Jeremy Allison (of SAMBA) and I ported the CMU ACAP to FreeBSD >around 1998. We didn't end up using it for anything (as far as >I can tell, it's only real use at this point is configuring the >Eudora Pro email clients). It can also be used to configure the Mulberry MUA, plus Mulberry can use the ACAP server to store user address books and such. Cyrusoft seems to do a lot of business with educational institutions, and ACAP would help a lot in that environment. LDAP may be a better bet since it can be bent to provide much the same functionality and there is far more development and support of LDAP than ACAP or IMSP. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 07:56:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B976F16A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:56:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A028643F93 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:56:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hA4Fu6C7086936; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:56:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:23:41 +0100 To: "Jason C. Wells" From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Too Much DNS Traffic / Analysis X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 15:56:18 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 15:56:18 -0000 At 6:54 PM -0800 2003/11/03, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Can any of you point me to a good practical reference on how to be a good > net neighbor with respect to DNS? See RFCs 1536, 1537, 1713, 1912, 2182, and various others that mention "DNS" or "Domain Name System" in the title. See also and . Of course, there is the seminal work _DNS and BIND_, currently in the 4th edition, written by Paul Albitz and Cricket Liu (see ). Other than that, all I can say is that hopefully there will be some more books coming out soon that may help address this issue. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 07:56:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1D016A4CE; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:56:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A653543FB1; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:56:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hA4Fu6C9086936; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:56:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200310311742.h9VHgE1j073145@intruder.kitchenlab.org> References: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> <200310311742.h9VHgE1j073145@intruder.kitchenlab.org> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:30:44 +0100 To: bmah@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 15:56:19 -0000 At 9:42 AM -0800 2003/10/31, Bruce A. Mah wrote: > Not in .uk, .hk, or .au (or any other country where people drive on the > left side of the road). :-) Add Singapore, Thailand, and Japan, and presumably much of the rest of Asia. Dunno about China. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 08:36:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC69E16A4CF for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 08:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.sharma-home.net (cpe-24-221-178-208.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.178.208]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5400043FCB for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 08:36:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from arun@sharma-home.net) Received: from sharma-home.net (unknown [192.168.1.194]) by eagle.sharma-home.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B934180D8; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 08:37:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3FA7D573.70008@sharma-home.net> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 08:36:03 -0800 From: Arun Sharma User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030901 Thunderbird/0.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marian Hettwer References: <20031104074813.GA2567@sharma-home.net> <3FA75F7F.5020308@kernel32.de> In-Reply-To: <3FA75F7F.5020308@kernel32.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd.rpm.mk ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:36:16 -0000 Marian Hettwer wrote: >> > well, why using RPM for binary packaging ?! > If to replace the pkg_* featureset of BSD then please replace it with > apt_* from those Debian guys. > Anyhow. Just my opinion ;-) These days you can have both: http://bazar.conectiva.com.br/~godoy/apt-howto/ -Arun From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 08:54:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28F1B16A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 08:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36DB343F93 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 08:54:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) hA4GsSt1028281; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:54:28 -0500 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA4GsQdi028279; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:54:26 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:54:26 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Marian Hettwer Message-ID: <20031104165426.GA28114@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FA75F7F.5020308@kernel32.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Arun Sharma Subject: Re: bsd.rpm.mk ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:54:31 -0000 Marian Hettwer wrote: > well, why using RPM for binary packaging ?! > If to replace the pkg_* featureset of BSD then please replace it with > apt_* from those Debian guys. apt isn't a packaging format. You're thinking of dpkg. apt is an additional layer that maintains databases of available packages, download locations, dependencies etc. I imagine apt could be set up to work with freebsd's binary packages, or possibly even source-based ports stored as .tgz files on multiple servers rather than in a single ports tree. That would be interesting. - Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 10:39:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 735EA16A4CE; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from eth0.b.smtp.sonic.net (eth0.b.smtp.sonic.net [64.142.19.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56FEA43FE0; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:39:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah@intruder.kitchenlab.org) Received: from intruder.kitchenlab.org (adsl-64-142-31-106.sonic.net [64.142.31.106])hA4IdfmT022711 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:39:41 -0800 Received: from intruder.kitchenlab.org (bmah@localhost [127.0.0.1]) hA4Idf1j046627; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:39:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah@intruder.kitchenlab.org) Received: (from bmah@localhost) by intruder.kitchenlab.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id hA4IdeNo046626; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:39:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:39:40 -0800 From: "Bruce A. Mah" To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20031104183940.GB46479@intruder.kitchenlab.org> References: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> <200310311742.h9VHgE1j073145@intruder.kitchenlab.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZoaI/ZTpAVc4A5k6" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ cc: bmah@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:39:43 -0000 --ZoaI/ZTpAVc4A5k6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If memory serves me right, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 9:42 AM -0800 2003/10/31, Bruce A. Mah wrote: >=20 > > Not in .uk, .hk, or .au (or any other country where people drive on the > > left side of the road). :-) >=20 > Add Singapore, Thailand, and Japan, and presumably much of the=20 > rest of Asia. Dunno about China. =2Ecn drivers drive on the right side. In places I've been, however, the bicyclists generally ride whereever they darn well feel like it, including the wrong way down freeway exit ramps. :-) Bruce. --ZoaI/ZTpAVc4A5k6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/p/Js2MoxcVugUsMRAkyPAJ9BRanQoDQfWPpgiHgyQcmRBcBTzQCePdB2 9hz7dekWh7yNDyFPKNB3s+k= =qcqK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZoaI/ZTpAVc4A5k6-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 10:54:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C4B716A4CE; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta7.adelphia.net (mta7.adelphia.net [68.168.78.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B90843FF3; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:54:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta7.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031104185424.RDYO1445.mta7.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 13:54:24 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA7F5C8.30507@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:54:00 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bruce A. Mah" References: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> <200310311742.h9VHgE1j073145@intruder.kitchenlab.org> <20031104183940.GB46479@intruder.kitchenlab.org> In-Reply-To: <20031104183940.GB46479@intruder.kitchenlab.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:54:24 -0000 Bruce A. Mah wrote: > If memory serves me right, Brad Knowles wrote: > >>At 9:42 AM -0800 2003/10/31, Bruce A. Mah wrote: >> >>>Not in .uk, .hk, or .au (or any other country where people drive on the >>>left side of the road). :-) >> >> Add Singapore, Thailand, and Japan, and presumably much of the >>rest of Asia. Dunno about China. > > .cn drivers drive on the right side. In places I've been, however, > the bicyclists generally ride whereever they darn well feel like it, > including the wrong way down freeway exit ramps. :-) Exactly! That's because bicyclists should be able to do whatever they want! After all, they're super-human (look at Lance Armstrong). On a more serious note, the bicycle vs. car problem in the US is horrendous. (If you haven't picked up, I'm an avid cyclist) Vehicle drivers seem to feel that bicycles have no place on the road, and in their enthusiasm to prove how much faster than a bicycle they can travel, they are often the cause of fatal accidents. This situation is made worse by the recent "bike trail" trend. The car community seems to think that bicycles _belong_ on trails, and are invading their space on the roads. Never mind the fact that most of these trails are _useless_ because they don't _go_ anywhere, and I can't use them to ride back and forth to work. Additionally, they are notoriously short: when I used to race, I would have to do 50+ laps around the local park trail to get a decent workout in, which is very boring. Even then, it was a sub-optimal workout, because bike trails avoid hills, which are critical to training. The flip side of the coin is just as you describe it, however, many cyclists don't think they have to follow the rules of the road. In proof against this, my ex-gf's father (also an avid cyclist) once got a speeding ticket for going 45 in a 25 zone on his bike (he got it framed ... then paid it) so it just goes to show how screwed up the situation is. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 11:22:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C8816A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9C1543FBD for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:22:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) hA4JMIt1001025; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:22:18 -0500 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA4JMFJu001023; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:22:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:22:15 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FA7F5C8.30507@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:22:20 -0000 >Bruce A. Mah wrote: >> If memory serves me right, Brad Knowles wrote: >>> Add Singapore, Thailand, and Japan, and presumably much of the >>>rest of Asia. Dunno about China. >> >> .cn drivers drive on the right side. In India it's the left, and that's a billion people, however in practice you want to look both ways before crossing the road. Bill Moran wrote: >On a more serious note, the bicycle vs. car problem in the US is >horrendous. The most bicycle-friendly country I've seen is the Netherlands. Wish more countries were like that. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 11:31:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31BD16A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta2.adelphia.net (mta2.adelphia.net [68.168.78.178]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0018943FA3 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:31:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta2.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031104193156.KRLA1433.mta2.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:31:56 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA7FEA7.80205@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:31:51 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> In-Reply-To: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:31:53 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Bill Moran wrote: > >>On a more serious note, the bicycle vs. car problem in the US is >>horrendous. > > The most bicycle-friendly country I've seen is the Netherlands. Wish > more countries were like that. Perhaps I should relocate? Is there a market for BSD application designers in Netherlands? -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 11:42:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B03B16A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:42:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F3C43FAF for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:42:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hA4JftC7099566; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:41:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3FA7FEA7.80205@potentialtech.com> References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA7FEA7.80205@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:41:54 +0100 To: Bill Moran From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:42:01 -0000 At 2:31 PM -0500 2003/11/04, Bill Moran wrote: > Perhaps I should relocate? Is there a market for BSD application designers > in Netherlands? Not unless you speak Dutch, and you have your own work permit that you can bring to your prospective employer. Oh, and you'll need to pay for your move. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 11:51:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD7316A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:51:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from xeon.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98D3343FCB for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:51:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: by xeon.unixathome.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E8D593E50; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:51:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xeon.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0D1B3E29; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:51:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:51:27 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@xeon.unixathome.org To: Brad Knowles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031104145102.O17944@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA7FEA7.80205@potentialtech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:51:29 -0000 On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 2:31 PM -0500 2003/11/04, Bill Moran wrote: > > > Perhaps I should relocate? Is there a market for BSD application designers > > in Netherlands? > > Not unless you speak Dutch, and you have your own work permit > that you can bring to your prospective employer. Oh, and you'll need > to pay for your move. Wouldn't Bill also fail the height requirements? ;) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 11:55:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7C516A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2659043FB1 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:55:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031104195517.DLLI9622.mta11.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:55:17 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA80421.60408@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:55:13 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA7FEA7.80205@potentialtech.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:55:15 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > At 2:31 PM -0500 2003/11/04, Bill Moran wrote: > >> Perhaps I should relocate? Is there a market for BSD application >> designers >> in Netherlands? > > Not unless you speak Dutch, and you have your own work permit that > you can bring to your prospective employer. Oh, and you'll need to pay > for your move. I guess they don't want foriegners sucking up all the jobs, huh? -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 11:56:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98CFA16A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:56:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta2.adelphia.net (mta2.adelphia.net [68.168.78.178]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23AB43F3F for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:56:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta2.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031104195651.NOIH1433.mta2.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:56:51 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA8047E.8070306@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:56:46 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Langille References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA7FEA7.80205@potentialtech.com> <20031104145102.O17944@xeon.unixathome.org> In-Reply-To: <20031104145102.O17944@xeon.unixathome.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:56:48 -0000 Dan Langille wrote: > On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Brad Knowles wrote: > >>At 2:31 PM -0500 2003/11/04, Bill Moran wrote: >> >>> Perhaps I should relocate? Is there a market for BSD application designers >>> in Netherlands? >> >> Not unless you speak Dutch, and you have your own work permit >>that you can bring to your prospective employer. Oh, and you'll need >>to pay for your move. > > Wouldn't Bill also fail the height requirements? ;) As long as I pass the length and width requirements ... -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 12:13:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EB716A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 12:13:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5B1143FBF for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 12:13:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) hA4KDPt1002810; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:13:25 -0500 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hA4KDOc9002808; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:13:24 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:13:24 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20031104201324.GA2654@online.fr> References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA7FEA7.80205@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:13:29 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > At 2:31 PM -0500 2003/11/04, Bill Moran wrote: > > > Perhaps I should relocate? Is there a market for BSD application designers > > in Netherlands? > > Not unless you speak Dutch, and you have your own work permit > that you can bring to your prospective employer. Oh, and you'll need > to pay for your move. I don't know about computer jobs, but I know lots of other non-Dutch-speakers (engineers and other professionals) who moved to the Netherlands and stayed there quite happily. Well, at least when they moved they were not Dutch speakers. As for daily life, one can get by fine in Amsterdam and other major towns not knowing a word of Dutch, but if you live there I imagine you'd want to learn. And the employer takes care of, or at least helps with, the work permit paperwork. (I doubt you can get a work permit without a concrete employment offer, and that applies to most countries including the US). Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 14:51:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1911716A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:51:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3BAA43F93 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:51:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 279D678CA5; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 23:51:32 +0100 (MET) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id DF24E9BE1D; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 23:51:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id C80CB9BE1C; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 23:51:27 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id BBAD4B825; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 23:51:27 +0100 (CET) To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:51:27 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> (Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:22:15 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on dsa.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 22:51:35 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan writes: > The most bicycle-friendly country I've seen is the Netherlands. Bicycle-friendly, but lethal for pedestrians. Dutch cyclists treat pedestrians with the same contempt as drivers to cyclists in most other countries... DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 15:37:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E7D16A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta7.adelphia.net (mta7.adelphia.net [68.168.78.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5405243FDD for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:37:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta7.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031104233741.UNTL1445.mta7.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:37:41 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA8382F.50204@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:37:19 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:37:39 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > >>The most bicycle-friendly country I've seen is the Netherlands. > > Bicycle-friendly, but lethal for pedestrians. Dutch cyclists treat > pedestrians with the same contempt as drivers to cyclists in most > other countries... Are you serious? That doesn't sound possible. I mean, a car can collide with a bicycle and cause no damage to the driver. The psychotic driver can have the twisted pleasure of having hurt or killed a cyclist with little more than an insurance claim to fix the cosmetic damager to his vehicle. A cyclist, OTOH, will generally do a similar amount of damage to himself as he does to the pedestrian he collides with. So I would think there is a certain amount of self-preservation that prevents cyclists from colliding with pedestrians. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 4 17:01:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4037716A4CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfenm.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.246]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DAA043F93 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:01:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 1129 invoked by uid 1002); 5 Nov 2003 01:01:42 -0000 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:01:42 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20031105010142.GA1072@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FA8382F.50204@potentialtech.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 01:01:44 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > So I would > think there is a certain amount of self-preservation that prevents > cyclists from colliding with pedestrians. You haven't been to New York, obviously. Cyclists here obey neither vehicular traffic lights nor pedestrian lights; they don't slow down at intersections or care who may be in their way, whether it's a pedestrian or a truck, they just keep going... That said, I haven't actually witnessed a collision yet. Only several near misses. Quick reflexes I suppose. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 5 00:06:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E980E16A4CE for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 00:06:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B488F43FE3 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 00:06:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 632EB79081; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:06:51 +0100 (MET) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 2F33D9BBAE; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:06:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 544CC9B530; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:06:47 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 3F57BB825; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:06:47 +0100 (CET) To: Bill Moran References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA8382F.50204@potentialtech.com> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 09:06:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3FA8382F.50204@potentialtech.com> (Bill Moran's message of "Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:37:19 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on dsa.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 08:06:54 -0000 Bill Moran writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > Bicycle-friendly, but lethal for pedestrians. Dutch cyclists treat > > pedestrians with the same contempt as drivers to cyclists in most > > other countries... > Are you serious? That doesn't sound possible [...] I would > think there is a certain amount of self-preservation that prevents > cyclists from colliding with pedestrians. That doesn't mean they *respect* pedestrians. They generally treat pedestrians like vermin invading their right-of-way (at least that's what it felt like in Delft, though Amsterdam - or the parts of Amsterdam I've been in - isn't nearly as bad) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 5 04:40:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98D716A4CE for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:40:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta6.adelphia.net (mta6.adelphia.net [68.168.78.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0180D43FEA for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:40:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta6.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031105124005.XTSS24627.mta6.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 07:40:05 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA8EFA1.7020507@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 07:40:01 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA8382F.50204@potentialtech.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:40:03 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Bill Moran writes: > >>Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >> >>>Bicycle-friendly, but lethal for pedestrians. Dutch cyclists treat >>>pedestrians with the same contempt as drivers to cyclists in most >>>other countries... >> >>Are you serious? That doesn't sound possible [...] I would >>think there is a certain amount of self-preservation that prevents >>cyclists from colliding with pedestrians. > > That doesn't mean they *respect* pedestrians. They generally treat > pedestrians like vermin invading their right-of-way (at least that's > what it felt like in Delft, though Amsterdam - or the parts of > Amsterdam I've been in - isn't nearly as bad) Well, that I can understand. It follow what I said about many cyclists not obeying the rules of the road. Professional cyclists (like bicycle messengers) tend to assume that everyone out there has developed lightening-fast reflexes. And I think part of the reason that bicycle messengers exist at all is _because_ they can generally get away with breaking the rules (and thus travel faster than cars in a crowded city). I guess the general rule might be that the fast generally disrespect the slower. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 5 17:27:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8286016A4CE for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:27:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1.stradamotorsports.com (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262C843FF7 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:27:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from s1.stradamotorsports.com (s1.stradamotorsports.com [192.168.1.201])hA6106wi007884 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:00:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:00:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-X-Sender: jcw@s1.stradamotorsports.com To: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,USER_AGENT_PINE version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Subject: Re: Too Much DNS Traffic / Analysis X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 01:27:37 -0000 Thanks to both of you. I have an old version of DNS and BIND. I think it might be time to upgrade. And recursion, Ack! I had a gross conceptual error there. I thought that only applied to my network. Later, Jason From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 5 17:59:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E45916A4CE for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:59:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C051043FDD for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:59:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 93963239A0E; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:59:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:59:03 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Jason C. Wells" Message-ID: <20031106015903.GJ98272@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KjX7LgAomYr70Ka9" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster X-PGP-Fingerprint: D161 E4EA 4BFA 2427 F3F9 5B1F 2015 31D5 845D FEDD X-PGP-Key: http://zer0.org/~gsutter/gsutter.pgp X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Too Much DNS Traffic / Analysis X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 01:59:05 -0000 --KjX7LgAomYr70Ka9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2003-11-03 18:54 -0800, "Jason C. Wells" wrote: >=20 > In 'ipfw show' I can see that 528 packets came in on smtp. 20 packets > came in on http. Something like 40,000 packets came in on DNS in one day. > This seems to be way too much DNS traffic for the little bit of use my > network sees. Packets is not that useful a measure of figuring out where DNS traffic originates. Have you enabled query logging to see what is causing all the traffic? I cleaned up a shell script I wrote to make a simple query analysis and put it up on . Perhaps this would be of assistance in finding the source of your DNS traffic. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter My reality check just bounced. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org=20 http://zer0.org/~gsutter/=20 --KjX7LgAomYr70Ka9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQE/qarnIBUx1YRd/t0RAvYaAJ9wKZpN1qc/hLfr+gS3lGGJSRdDngCcCYjJ TnR0Ig8L/m6fkrAST4ocZAw= =KBL7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --KjX7LgAomYr70Ka9-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 6 10:25:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9ED16A4CE for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 10:25:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mangw.nsa.naples.navy.mil (mangw.nsanaples.navy.mil [204.34.131.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9024943FB1 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 10:25:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from EvansA@nsa.naples.navy.mil) Received: by mangw.nsa.naples.navy.mil; id TAA08146; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 19:24:40 GMT Received: from unknown(138.180.14.2) by mangw.nsa.naples.navy.mil via smap (V5.5) id xma008143; Thu, 6 Nov 03 19:24:19 GMT Received: by g-32is-bdc002.nsa.naples.navy.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 19:24:54 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Evans, Anthony MASR (NSAGAETA N2)" To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 19:24:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: About you article in Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 18:25:13 -0000 I read your article in the Senator Santorum and i would like to point out one thing. In on part you referred to Art 15 of the UCMJ (Commanding Officer's Non-Judicial Punishment) you also said that this is a courts marshall. That would be Art 16. The whole point of NJP is just that Non Judicial. Which mens there are no judges or lawers just the commanding officers the accused and his chain of command and if the need be a complainant if there was an assault or fight etc. Pease read both articles i mentione above as I am sure you will see that i am correct. V/R Anthony K. Evans MASN USN From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 6 10:46:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413EE16A4CE for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 10:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu (msx.upmc.edu [128.147.18.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324FA43F75 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 10:46:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 13:46:03 -0500 Message-ID: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B01FB0F17@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: "'Evans, Anthony MASR (NSAGAETA N2)'" , "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 13:45:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: About you article in Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 18:46:22 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Evans, Anthony MASR (NSAGAETA N2) > [mailto:EvansA@nsa.naples.navy.mil] > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:25 PM > To: 'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org' > Subject: About you article in Senator Santorum > > > I read your article in the Senator Santorum and i would like > to point out > one thing. In on part you referred to Art 15 of the UCMJ (Commanding > Officer's Non-Judicial Punishment) you also said that this is a courts > marshall. That would be Art 16. The whole point of NJP is > just that Non > Judicial. Which mens there are no judges or lawers just the commanding > officers the accused and his chain of command and if the need be a > complainant if there was an assault or fight etc. Pease read > both articles i > mentione above as I am sure you will see that i am correct. > > V/R Anthony K. Evans MASN USN > Please tell me this was sent to the wrong list because I'm really confused! From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 6 11:24:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C6416A4CE for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 11:24:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp5.knology.net (smtp5.knology.net [24.236.126.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F100143FF5 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 11:23:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 9490 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 19:23:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO user-24-214-34-52.knology.net) (24.214.34.52) by smtp5.knology.net with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 19:23:58 -0000 From: David Kelly To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 13:23:57 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B01FB0F17@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> In-Reply-To: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B01FB0F17@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200311061323.57413.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Subject: Re: About you article in Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 19:24:02 -0000 On Thursday 06 November 2003 12:45 pm, Person, Roderick wrote: > > Please tell me this was sent to the wrong list because I'm really > confused! Had me wondering what Brett Glass was doing to provoke this response. :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 7 15:33:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B14016A4CE for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:33:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41EE243FEA for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:33:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hA7NWsCD092882; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 18:33:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3FA80421.60408@potentialtech.com> References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA7FEA7.80205@potentialtech.com> <3FA80421.60408@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 21:02:43 +0100 To: Bill Moran From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Brad Knowles cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 23:33:21 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 23:33:21 -0000 At 2:55 PM -0500 2003/11/04, Bill Moran wrote: > I guess they don't want foriegners sucking up all the jobs, huh? Nope. They are required, by law, to advertise all jobs first to Dutch nationals, then to other EU nationals, and only then may they advertise jobs to non-EU nationals (and only if they can provide proof that there are no Dutch or EU nationals that have the necessary skills and are interested). This means that if you are to get hired by a Dutch company, they have to go through a minimum five week waiting period as they go through this process, even if they have no intention of hiring anyone but you (been there, done that). And you have no idea what a company has to go through for work permit paperwork. Certainly, my former employer (Snow BV, a Dutch consulting company) had no idea. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 7 15:33:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 798BF16A4CE for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 954FA43FEC for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:33:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hA7NWsCF092882; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 18:33:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20031104201324.GA2654@online.fr> References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA7FEA7.80205@potentialtech.com> <20031104201324.GA2654@online.fr> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 21:08:38 +0100 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Brad Knowles cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 23:33:26 -0000 At 3:13 PM -0500 2003/11/04, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > As for daily life, one can > get by fine in Amsterdam and other major towns not knowing a word of > Dutch, but if you live there I imagine you'd want to learn. I have now worked for two different companies here in Europe, each of which said there was no need for me to learn the native language (or one of the native languages, as the case may be). Technically, that may have been correct, but I have been twice burned by a multitude of situations where, practically, I really did need to be able to speak a native language. Otherwise, I didn't fit in, too many others felt uncomfortable trying to speak English, and I did not work long at that company. Never, ever again. > And the employer takes care of, or at least helps with, the work > permit paperwork. I can't speak for France, but I don't think you have any concept of what that requires in Belgium or the Netherlands. I don't fully comprehend it myself (speaking as the employee, and not the employer), but at least I do have some idea. > (I doubt you can get a work permit without a > concrete employment offer, and that applies to most countries > including the US). I don't know about the Netherlands, but speaking for Belgium, theoretically you cannot apply for a work permit and visa while you are resident within the country. You need to apply for it from your official country of residence (i.e., the place you could stay for the rest of your life, without needing a visa or residence card, etc...). There are ways to work around this problem, but it is very painful, and requires working through your embassy in the local country plus the local country's embassy in your official country of citizenship, etc.... And that's just the stuff that the employee has to deal with -- what the employer has to go through is far, far worse. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 7 20:15:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333B016A4CE for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 20:15:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfenm.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.246]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 142DC43FEC for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 20:15:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 882 invoked by uid 1002); 8 Nov 2003 04:15:38 -0000 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 23:15:38 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20031108041538.GA806@online.fr> References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA7FEA7.80205@potentialtech.com> <20031104201324.GA2654@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 04:15:40 -0000 > Technically, that may have been correct, but I have been twice burned > by a multitude of situations where, practically, I really did need to > be able to speak a native language. Otherwise, I didn't fit in, too > many others felt uncomfortable trying to speak English, and I did not > work long at that company. As I said, if you're planning to spend some time there you'd want to learn the language. Just as anyone wanting to spend time in America should know English. > I don't know about the Netherlands, but speaking for Belgium, > theoretically you cannot apply for a work permit and visa while you > are resident within the country. You need to apply for it from your > official country of residence (i.e., the place you could stay for the > rest of your life, without needing a visa or residence card, etc...). This is equally true of the US (at least, in my experience it is true of academic visas, and I have been told it's true also for H-1B visas). Worse, to renew a visa when your temporary position has been extended for another year -- no change of job involved -- you need to go back to your home country (in theory you can apply in any other country, such as Canada, but it's risky -- particularly after 9/11 -- and if the application is denied you can't re-enter the US). It is possible to stay on with the old visa in some cases if the other paperwork is ok, but one cannot leave and re-enter the country -- even to Canada or Mexico -- without getting a new visa. I imagine most countries have similar rules. Rahul > and requires working through your embassy in the local country plus I doubt this > the local country's embassy in your official country of citizenship, > etc.... That's pretty obvious, who else would you go to? > And that's just the stuff that the employee has to deal with -- > what the employer has to go through is far, far worse. I imagine it's pretty similar to a US employer who needs to employ someone on a H-1B visa. Paperwork has to be done in all cases, maybe the scale is different in different countries, but don't imagine that anyone can just overstay their tourist visa in the US (or any other country) and demand a work permit. Rahul