From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 10 09:02:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC63216A4CE for ; Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A1843FDD for ; Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:02:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hAAH2MC7054192; Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:02:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20031108041538.GA806@online.fr> References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA7FEA7.80205@potentialtech.com> <20031104201324.GA2654@online.fr> <20031108041538.GA806@online.fr> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:45:47 +0100 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Brad Knowles cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:02:26 -0000 At 11:15 PM -0500 2003/11/07, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > As I said, if you're planning to spend some time there you'd want to > learn the language. Just as anyone wanting to spend time in America > should know English. I was trying to emphasize the point that, even if you are told you do not need to learn the language, you should do so anyway -- for social reasons, if not practical ones. In my case, my employer (Snow BV) was working on finding me a place where I could learn Dutch. However, for the first major customer I was told that it was actually an advantage that I did not know Dutch, because they were an international company whose official language was English, and the local office I would be working in felt that they needed to improve their English language skills. Whether or not this was a true desired goal of that customer, this still wound up creating a bad situation for me -- I should have learned Dutch anyway, and either forced my employer to pay for the lessons regardless, or found a way to attend privately. Frankly, in terms of day-to-day "getting things done" in the Netherlands, I found that everyone I encountered throughout Amsterdam, Utrecht, Waardenburg, and all the other towns and cities I went to/through, spoke enough English that I could get by -- everyone from gas station attendants to check out clerks at supermarkets and hardware stores, etc.... It was the more subtle social/personal/personnel issues within the company and customer (where most people spoke English as well as many native speakers, and some spoke and wrote better English than most native speakers), where the language issues became more prevalent on the long-term basis. There are few conversation-stoppers worse than "I'm sorry, I don't speak your language -- can you speak mine?" So, you miss out on all the hallway chat, the elevator chat, the smoke-room chat, and all those little social encounters that can end up making your life wonderful or miserable, and can seriously shorten or lengthen your stay at that employer. > This is equally true of the US (at least, in my experience it is true of > academic visas, and I have been told it's true also for H-1B visas). As bad as the process is over here, I have been told by many people that the process in the US is even worse. More's the pity. > I imagine most countries have similar rules. Sadly, that is likely to be true. >> and requires working through your embassy in the local country plus > > I doubt this I had to work through the local US Embassy for my original work permit paperwork. >> the local country's embassy in your official country of citizenship, >> etc.... > > That's pretty obvious, who else would you go to? I was making the point that you have to coordinate things through multiple offices, in multiple countries (multiple >= 2). -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 11 08:10:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037E116A4CE; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359ED43FCB; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:10:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from digiflux.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by digiflux.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hABG9wmF026175; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:09:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: (from www@localhost) by digiflux.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id hABG9w7Z026174; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:09:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:09:58 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200311111609.hABG9w7Z026174@digiflux.org> X-Authentication-Warning: digiflux.org: www set sender to olivas@digiflux.org using -f To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 10.0.0.150 (auth. user olivas@localhost) by digiflux.org with HTTP; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:09:57 +0100 X-IlohaMail-Blah: olivas@localhost X-IlohaMail-Method: mail() [mem] X-IlohaMail-Dummy: moo X-Mailer: IlohaMail/0.7.11 (On: digiflux.org) From: "Stacy Olivas" Bounce-To: "Stacy Olivas" Errors-To: "Stacy Olivas" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cc: warbsd@digiflux.org Subject: WarBSD.com - WarBSD's new site X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:10:10 -0000 FYI. I've moved WarBSD to http://www.warbsd.com. -Stacy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 12 09:48:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3451316A4CE for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (73.Red-213-97-200.pooles.rima-tde.net [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DEC43FE3 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:48:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org) Received: from scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org (scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org [192.168.100.1]) by mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A6C803578F for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:48:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:48:50 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20031112184850.0f752d52.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> Organization: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.5-gtk2-20030906 (GTK+ 2.2.4; i386-portbld-freebsd5.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:48:58 -0000 Several places have commented on the subject already, it's currently on /. as well. The relevant link: http://freedesktop.org/~keithp/screenshots/ So, I'm wondering, what do you guys think about the dropshadow and transparent windows thing Mr. Packard and friends are working on? Could it help on the adoption of *ix on the desktop? I personally don't mind some eye candy now and then, so, as long as it can be turned off, it looks good in my book. I've read some comments saying that some people get a better undestanding of the desktop if the windows cast a shadow. On the negative side, I don't think having 3 forks is that good (XFree86, Xouvert and this stuff). FWIW, the screenshots sure are pretty :) Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez http://www.energyhq.es.eu.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 12 10:27:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D256616A4CE for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta1.adelphia.net (mta1.adelphia.net [68.168.78.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C1143F93 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:27:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta1.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031112183112.XMEU19889.mta1.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:31:12 -0500 Message-ID: <3FB27B9E.2000902@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:27:42 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Miguel Mendez References: <20031112184850.0f752d52.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20031112184850.0f752d52.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:27:45 -0000 Miguel Mendez wrote: > Several places have commented on the subject already, it's currently on > /. as well. The relevant link: > http://freedesktop.org/~keithp/screenshots/ > > So, I'm wondering, what do you guys think about the dropshadow and > transparent windows thing Mr. Packard and friends are working on? Could > it help on the adoption of *ix on the desktop? I personally don't mind > some eye candy now and then, so, as long as it can be turned off, it > looks good in my book. I've read some comments saying that some people > get a better undestanding of the desktop if the windows cast a shadow. > On the negative side, I don't think having 3 forks is that good > (XFree86, Xouvert and this stuff). FWIW, the screenshots sure are pretty :) Isn't there another project trying to put together a replacement for X? I thought it was called "Berlin", but I can't find it anywhere on the net, so I can't be sure. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 12 10:48:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CA4116A4CF for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:48:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sentinel.ucr.edu (sentinel.ucr.edu [138.23.226.228]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BAD943FD7 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:48:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from beyert@cs.ucr.edu) Received: from aeonserv.aeonnet (adsl-66-124-165-35.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [66.124.165.35]) by sentinel.ucr.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.1-GA) with ESMTP id ASZ08613 (AUTH tbeye001) for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:48:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:54:11 -0800 From: Timothy Beyer To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20031112105411.589adcca.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> In-Reply-To: <3FB27B9E.2000902@potentialtech.com> References: <20031112184850.0f752d52.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> <3FB27B9E.2000902@potentialtech.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.5-gtk2-20030906 (GTK+ 2.2.4; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:48:31 -0000 > Isn't there another project trying to put together a replacement for X? > I thought it was called "Berlin", but I can't find it anywhere on the net, > so I can't be sure. It is now called Fresco. (Berlin is one component of Fresco I believe) Looks very interesting, makes use of CORBA for communications, and uses an integrated C++ toolkit called Interviews. Too bad they changed licenses from BSD to LGPL... :( As for Keith's X Server, I don't think its a fork. I think it fits into the existing model. Also, from what I understand, Keith's work is slowly getting into XFree86. (though I'm not sure if 4.4 includes any of that work) Xouvert, as the page states, is an experimental/development "branch" (assuming Arch is everything they claim it to be) of XFree86, not a fork. I don't know if it will go very far, though. My bet is on Keith's work. --Tim On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:27:42 -0500 Bill Moran wrote: > Miguel Mendez wrote: > > Several places have commented on the subject already, it's currently on > > /. as well. The relevant link: > > http://freedesktop.org/~keithp/screenshots/ > > > > So, I'm wondering, what do you guys think about the dropshadow and > > transparent windows thing Mr. Packard and friends are working on? Could > > it help on the adoption of *ix on the desktop? I personally don't mind > > some eye candy now and then, so, as long as it can be turned off, it > > looks good in my book. I've read some comments saying that some people > > get a better undestanding of the desktop if the windows cast a shadow. > > On the negative side, I don't think having 3 forks is that good > > (XFree86, Xouvert and this stuff). FWIW, the screenshots sure are pretty :) > > Isn't there another project trying to put together a replacement for X? > I thought it was called "Berlin", but I can't find it anywhere on the net, > so I can't be sure. > > -- > Bill Moran > Potential Technologies > http://www.potentialtech.com > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 12 12:00:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B1416A4D5 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:00:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from swissgeeks.com (adsl-212-101-16-119.solnet.ch [212.101.16.119]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C99343FBD for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:00:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pbrossin@swissgeeks.com) Received: from localhost (dynek [10.0.0.20]) by swissgeeks.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4CCAA6A for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:00:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:00:21 +0100 From: Pierrick Brossin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20031112210021.4ef2ce44.pbrossin@swissgeeks.com> In-Reply-To: <3FB27B9E.2000902@potentialtech.com> References: <20031112184850.0f752d52.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> <3FB27B9E.2000902@potentialtech.com> Organization: SwissGeeks X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:00:25 -0000 On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:27:42 -0500 Bill Moran wrote: > Isn't there another project trying to put together a replacement for > X? I thought it was called "Berlin", but I can't find it anywhere on > the net, so I can't be sure. Why would one replace X ? Is it to heavy ? -- Pierrick Brossin < http://www.swissgeeks.com > perl -e\ 'print $i=pack(c5,(41*2),sqrt(7056),(unpack(c,H)-2),oct(115),10);' From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 12 12:08:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A0C16A4CF for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:08:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtprelay02.ispgateway.de (smtprelay02.ispgateway.de [62.67.200.157]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6530443FE9 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:08:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mail@synchron.org) Received: (qmail 19089 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2003 20:08:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO FIREBIRD) ([80.138.225.225]) (envelope-sender ) by smtprelay02.ispgateway.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 12 Nov 2003 20:08:43 -0000 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:12:27 +0100 From: Andi Scharfstein X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.6) CD5BF9353B3B7091 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <29601906.20031112211227@synchron.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200311061323.57413.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B01FB0F17@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> <200311061323.57413.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: About you article in Senator Santorum X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andi Scharfstein List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:08:48 -0000 Hi, >> Please tell me this was sent to the wrong list because I'm really >> confused! > Had me wondering what Brett Glass was doing to provoke this > response. :-) I just discovered this thread http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/htdig/freebsd-chat/2003-May/000236.html by accident, I think that's the one the original author was referring to. The Uniform Code of Military Justice is mentioned in the thread. I still can't imagine why he didn't send the mail in May, though... -- Bye: Andi S. mailto:mail@synchron.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 12 12:42:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89FE716A4CE for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E9BB43FBD for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:42:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) hACKfgw1008959; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:41:42 -0500 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id hACKfZ0k008957; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:41:35 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:41:35 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20031112204135.GA8944@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Bill Moran , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FB27B9E.2000902@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: Miguel Mendez cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:42:47 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: >Miguel Mendez wrote: >> On the negative side, I don't think having 3 forks is that good >> (XFree86, Xouvert and this stuff). FWIW, the screenshots sure are >> pretty :) > >Isn't there another project trying to put together a replacement for >X? But the freedesktop.org stuff isn't a replacement of X, just further development of XFree86 in a new direction. It certainly looks good, and KeithP can deliver, he is the guy responsible for the antialiased font support in XFree86 today. This fork is probably because the XFree86 people chucked him out. Hopefully the "best fork" will win, as when the egcs people forked from gcc and eventually became the "new" gcc. Eric Anholt already announced that he's making a separate port of the X libraries from the freedesktop.org project, which will reduce compile time in upgrading etc; it sounds like that will also make it easier to replace the XFree86 X server with the fd.o ones, for people who want to play with it. As for "X-replacement" projects like Berlin/Fresco, I don't see the point. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 12 13:03:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBD8A16A4CE for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao06.cox.net (lakemtao06.cox.net [68.1.17.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F3A043F75 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:03:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao06.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20031112210313.HTYN24575.lakemtao06.cox.net@fortytwo>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:03:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:02:01 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: Miguel Mendez Message-Id: <20031112150201.49789572.kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <20031112184850.0f752d52.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> References: <20031112184850.0f752d52.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:03:15 -0000 On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:48:50 +0100 Miguel Mendez wrote: > Several places have commented on the subject already, it's currently on > /. as well. The relevant link: > http://freedesktop.org/~keithp/screenshots/ > > So, I'm wondering, what do you guys think about the dropshadow and > transparent windows thing Mr. Packard and friends are working on? Could > it help on the adoption of *ix on the desktop? I personally don't mind > some eye candy now and then, so, as long as it can be turned off, it > looks good in my book. I've read some comments saying that some people > get a better undestanding of the desktop if the windows cast a shadow. > On the negative side, I don't think having 3 forks is that good > (XFree86, Xouvert and this stuff). FWIW, the screenshots sure are pretty :) I personally doubt that this new xserver will amount to much. Especially given a major lack of drivers. It could possibly be interesting, but I don't see them really going any where fast or at all. I also get the feeling that they will probally want to try to be linux centric with it. I personally think a module for doing stuff like that would be much more fesable. But from what I have heard getting stuff commited to the XFree86 project is a prob. What could be done is to take the current XFree86 code and put it in a enviroment where things can be more easily added. This would probally be much better since it would not mean writing things from scratch and all ready have a nice amount of drivers to pull from. I also doubt very much that it will help the adoption of unix on the desktop. The biggest problem is how badly thinks like KDE and Gnome are put together and they are suppose to be newbie friendly. Both leave a lot to be desired as they try to tie things down to one set way of doing things. They are both set up to use ways that are entire centric to themselves for doing things like smb and the like... a much better approach would to be allow a piece of software to search for something and then go about mounting it onto the FS under the users home dir or some place. The also both spend a lot of time all ready recreating stuff which there is no reason to recreate... such as a browser... just use mozilla/firebird... A unified look would be good to... none of this going for only gtk/gtk+/qt... what is needed is a app that can configure all three. Ohh, another thing that would be really good is if some one would go and write some widgets for file selection and the like that looks and functioned exactly the same on gtk/gtk+/qt. A few other things that are needed are some nice tools for configing stuff and building stuff. I my self am currently working on the last one. /stand/sysinstall is nice, but it leaves a few things to be desired. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 12 13:57:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB9C16A4CE for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:57:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta2.adelphia.net (mta2.adelphia.net [68.168.78.178]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E012543FBF for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:57:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta2.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031112215735.WBRZ11586.mta2.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:57:35 -0500 Message-ID: <3FB2ACCA.8050708@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:57:30 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20031112204135.GA8944@online.fr> In-Reply-To: <20031112204135.GA8944@online.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Miguel Mendez cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:57:33 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > As for "X-replacement" projects like Berlin/Fresco, I don't see the > point. I think it would benefit things just as OpenBSD and NetBSD benefit FreeBSD ... it's another place for different ideas to gel and mature. Like Mach and AFS, even if it never becomes a complete replacement, it will help to advance the state of the art for its competitors. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 12 21:08:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3837816A4CE for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:08:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B1B43FCB for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:08:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20031113050816.MJFF4890.lakemtao07.cox.net@fortytwo>; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:08:16 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:07:05 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: Vulpes Velox Message-Id: <20031112230705.19301e60.kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <20031112150201.49789572.kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com> References: <20031112184850.0f752d52.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> <20031112150201.49789572.kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Miguel Mendez cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 05:08:20 -0000 On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:02:01 -0600 Vulpes Velox wrote: > > I personally doubt that this new xserver will amount to much. Especially given > a major lack of drivers. It could possibly be interesting, but I don't see > them really going any where fast or at all. I also get the feeling that they > will probally want to try to be linux centric with it. I personally think a > module for doing stuff like that would be much more fesable. But from what I > have heard getting stuff commited to the XFree86 project is a prob. What could > be done is to take the current XFree86 code and put it in a enviroment where > things can be more easily added. This would probally be much better since it > would not mean writing things from scratch and all ready have a nice amount of > drivers to pull from. Whoops, my bad... accidentally got this confused with one of the other projects going on... Yeah, this is one of the few X projects going on that looks like it actually has possible potential. Any ways, sorry for that bit and any confusion it cuased. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 12 21:51:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D88616A4CE for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:51:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sentry.ucr.edu (sentry.ucr.edu [138.23.226.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA37343F93 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:51:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from beyert@cs.ucr.edu) Received: from aeonserv.aeonnet (adsl-66-124-165-35.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [66.124.165.35]) by sentry.ucr.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.1-GA) with ESMTP id ATH31012 (AUTH tbeye001) for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:51:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:57:37 -0800 From: Timothy Beyer To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20031112215737.02dc36b7.beyert@cs.ucr.edu> In-Reply-To: <20031112230705.19301e60.kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com> References: <20031112184850.0f752d52.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> <20031112150201.49789572.kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com> <20031112230705.19301e60.kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.5-gtk2-20030906 (GTK+ 2.2.4; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 05:51:54 -0000 On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:07:05 -0600 Vulpes Velox wrote: Were you talking about Xouvert? > On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:02:01 -0600 > Vulpes Velox wrote: > > > > I personally doubt that this new xserver will amount to much. Especially given > > a major lack of drivers. It could possibly be interesting, but I don't see > > them really going any where fast or at all. I also get the feeling that they > > will probally want to try to be linux centric with it. I personally think a > > module for doing stuff like that would be much more fesable. But from what I > > have heard getting stuff commited to the XFree86 project is a prob. What could > > be done is to take the current XFree86 code and put it in a enviroment where > > things can be more easily added. This would probally be much better since it > > would not mean writing things from scratch and all ready have a nice amount of > > drivers to pull from. > > Whoops, my bad... accidentally got this confused with one of the other projects > going on... > > Yeah, this is one of the few X projects going on that looks like it actually has > possible potential. > > Any ways, sorry for that bit and any confusion it cuased. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 13 15:36:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECAB416A4CE for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:36:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-234.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.234]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C97A43F75 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:36:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 814DC66B0C; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:36:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:36:28 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Bill Moran , Miguel Mendez , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031113233628.GA56182@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3FB27B9E.2000902@potentialtech.com> <20031112204135.GA8944@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031112204135.GA8944@online.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:36:30 -0000 --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 03:41:35PM -0500, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > But the freedesktop.org stuff isn't a replacement of X, just further > development of XFree86 in a new direction. It certainly looks good, > and KeithP can deliver, he is the guy responsible for the antialiased > font support in XFree86 today. So we can expect future XFree86 enhancements to also be slow and blurry? :-) Kris --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/tBV8Wry0BWjoQKURApxwAKCqYn5Ve/x4Pli1FQE3IFHOerpUHwCgnxxe zs9pfjFiJHIGXkc+N5CtN/c= =Zsmz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 13 16:22:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7E016A4CE for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfenm.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.246]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F3C2A43FBD for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:22:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 1139 invoked by uid 1002); 14 Nov 2003 00:22:04 -0000 Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:22:04 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Kris Kennaway Message-ID: <20031114002204.GA1035@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031113233628.GA56182@xor.obsecurity.org> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 00:22:07 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 03:41:35PM -0500, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > But the freedesktop.org stuff isn't a replacement of X, just further > > development of XFree86 in a new direction. It certainly looks good, > > and KeithP can deliver, he is the guy responsible for the antialiased > > font support in XFree86 today. > > So we can expect future XFree86 enhancements to also be slow and > blurry? :-) Well, I don't know about slow, but I like those blurry drop-shadows :-) http://freedesktop.org/~keithp/screenshots/screen3.png Seriously -- anti-aliasing was blurry in its early days, but with recent xft and 2.1.x versions of freetype it's as good as or better than on any other OS. Eg, the fonts in that screenshot (the insects and other graphics are antialiased too, none of it looks blurry to me). As for speed -- in its early days there was a slowness in generating .xftcache, but no longer. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 13 16:47:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB24016A4CF for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-234.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.234]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18A643FD7 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:47:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EC46E66B60; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:47:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:47:40 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20031114004740.GA56759@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20031113233628.GA56182@xor.obsecurity.org> <20031114002204.GA1035@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gKMricLos+KVdGMg" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031114002204.GA1035@online.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: chat@FreeBSD.org cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 00:47:43 -0000 --gKMricLos+KVdGMg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 07:22:04PM -0500, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 03:41:35PM -0500, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >=20 > > > But the freedesktop.org stuff isn't a replacement of X, just further > > > development of XFree86 in a new direction. It certainly looks good, > > > and KeithP can deliver, he is the guy responsible for the antialiased > > > font support in XFree86 today. > >=20 > > So we can expect future XFree86 enhancements to also be slow and > > blurry? :-) >=20 > Well, I don't know about slow, but I like those blurry drop-shadows :-) > http://freedesktop.org/~keithp/screenshots/screen3.png >=20 > Seriously -- anti-aliasing was blurry in its early days, but with recent > xft and 2.1.x versions of freetype it's as good as or better than on any > other OS. Eg, the fonts in that screenshot (the insects and other > graphics are antialiased too, none of it looks blurry to me). As for > speed -- in its early days there was a slowness in generating .xftcache, > but no longer. It's too slow to use on my sparc64 machine (rendering e.g. large text files in mozilla takes up to 60 seconds, which is hardly acceptable). An ultra30 is hardly a speed demon thesedays, but it's not that slow. It's too blurry to read clearly on my 14" monitor (Windows is fine). Kris --gKMricLos+KVdGMg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/tCYsWry0BWjoQKURAm00AJ9Te803DFRUd2CTYKTD3qv8gLUcgQCdF8lm Mva8xfuoIsNpJ+Jx5h3rd7Y= =UIZC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gKMricLos+KVdGMg-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 13 19:46:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40BE16A4CF for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:46:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfenm.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.246]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8422B43FE9 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:46:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 3283 invoked by uid 1002); 14 Nov 2003 03:46:34 -0000 Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:46:34 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Kris Kennaway Message-ID: <20031114034634.GA3086@online.fr> References: <20031113233628.GA56182@xor.obsecurity.org> <20031114002204.GA1035@online.fr> <20031114004740.GA56759@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031114004740.GA56759@xor.obsecurity.org> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 03:46:37 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: [XFree86 antialiasing] > It's too slow to use on my sparc64 machine (rendering e.g. large text > files in mozilla takes up to 60 seconds, which is hardly acceptable). > An ultra30 is hardly a speed demon thesedays, but it's not that slow. Must be some strange bug on sparc64, do the XFree86 people know about it? I've used it happily on a 400 MHz P-II. > It's too blurry to read clearly on my 14" monitor (Windows is fine). Well much depends on the monitor. If you claim that the same fonts, antialiased on both systems, are fine on windows and not on XFree86, that's definitely a problem. But perhaps windows doesn't anti-alias them. You can disable antialiasing in fonts.conf or $HOME/.fonts.conf for, say, fonts below 12pt with something like 12 false It can also be done by pointing/clicking via KDE's control panel (I presume GNOME's too). Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 13 20:09:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23CC516A4CE for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:09:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-234.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.234]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F0DC43FAF for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:09:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4E8F966B0C; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:09:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:09:35 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20031114040935.GB58520@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20031113233628.GA56182@xor.obsecurity.org> <20031114002204.GA1035@online.fr> <20031114004740.GA56759@xor.obsecurity.org> <20031114034634.GA3086@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3uo+9/B/ebqu+fSQ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031114034634.GA3086@online.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: chat@FreeBSD.org cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:09:37 -0000 --3uo+9/B/ebqu+fSQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 10:46:34PM -0500, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: > [XFree86 antialiasing] > > It's too slow to use on my sparc64 machine (rendering e.g. large text > > files in mozilla takes up to 60 seconds, which is hardly acceptable). > > An ultra30 is hardly a speed demon thesedays, but it's not that slow. >=20 > Must be some strange bug on sparc64, do the XFree86 people know about > it? I've used it happily on a 400 MHz P-II. =20 It's easy to measure an inordinate CPU increase on pretty much anything - e.g. run an xterm with anti-aliased fonts and stream output to it, and watch the CPU use skyrocket. > > It's too blurry to read clearly on my 14" monitor (Windows is fine). >=20 > Well much depends on the monitor. If you claim that the same fonts, > antialiased on both systems, are fine on windows and not on XFree86, > that's definitely a problem. Yes. > But perhaps windows doesn't anti-alias > them. I can see the difference between 'smoothed' and not. > You can disable antialiasing in fonts.conf or $HOME/.fonts.conf > for, say, fonts below 12pt with something like Yes, that's what I did. Kris --3uo+9/B/ebqu+fSQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/tFV+Wry0BWjoQKURAgj4AKDFVv0qRlGl7vEjNYUSfZG5cUrfwACePgpI cM6ymE7ZR5hTUIgydkybsuQ= =wy79 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --3uo+9/B/ebqu+fSQ-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 13 20:24:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B2F016A4CE for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:24:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfenm.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.246]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EB26D43FDD for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:24:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 3946 invoked by uid 1002); 14 Nov 2003 04:24:15 -0000 Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:24:15 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Kris Kennaway Message-ID: <20031114042415.GA3775@online.fr> References: <20031113233628.GA56182@xor.obsecurity.org> <20031114002204.GA1035@online.fr> <20031114004740.GA56759@xor.obsecurity.org> <20031114034634.GA3086@online.fr> <20031114040935.GB58520@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031114040935.GB58520@xor.obsecurity.org> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:24:17 -0000 Kris Kennaway said on Nov 13, 2003 at 20:09:35: > > Well much depends on the monitor. If you claim that the same fonts, > > antialiased on both systems, are fine on windows and not on XFree86, > > that's definitely a problem. > > Yes. Out of curiosity, were the fonts also too blurry to read on KeithP's recent screenshots, http://freedesktop.org/~keithp/screenshots/ ? To my eyes, those are about as good as fonts get (I haven't seen more readable small fonts on windows or MacOS X) and they are perfectly readable on my screen, even the tiny ones in the mozilla menu in screen1.png. I'm currently looking at them on a 1400x1050 laptop LCD screen, but saw them earlier today on a 1600x1200 CRT screen, they're fine on both though I'd pick a bigger font size for the menus. The fonts in the screenshot look to me like Bitstream Vera. The Microsoft fonts in the "x11-fonts/webfonts" port are equally good on my system (ie, as good as on any windows machine I've seen), but older free TTF fonts (URW fonts, etc) are definitely blurrier and often not hinted right at small sizes. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 13 20:51:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFCD616A4CE for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (floyd.blarg.net [206.124.128.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05DE543FE3 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:51:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from localhost (beaker.blarg.net [206.124.128.4]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C119838124 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:46:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "abowhill" Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:47:01 -0800 To: X-Mailer: Blarg's Communications Control Center v4.0.5 X-Mailer-Info: http://www.blarg.net/ X-CCCUser: abowhill Message-Id: <20031114044623.C119838124@mail.blarg.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: C/C++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:51:27 -0000 I am reposting this in freebsd-chat, because a couple of people warned me about being off-topic in -questions. >> The idea that C can be used to do object-oriented programming is >> a myth. The C language is not object-oriented or even object-based. >> The big reason C++ is object-oriented is due to dynamic binding. >I don't think I buy that. With that reasoning, couldn't you say that >any program in any language that does any sort of dynamic binding (for >example, opening a .so file) "is object-oriented"? I guess what you are talking about is analagous to polymorphism at a systems level with regard to library versions, but am not sure. You probably know all this, but for the sake of people who don't... Dynamic or late binding refers to the ability of C++ to have "smart pointers" to functions at runtime. As long as any class has a "contract" with a base class to define a function foo(), you can call foo() indirectly through the base class, without ever having to know what the data type is of the object you are running it on. So, if you create 100 different types of objects that support foo(), and 100 different ways of implementing foo(), you don't have to know (or care) which object you are acting on. You just make a function call to baseclass->foo(), and you are guranteed to have the right foo() called. For example, suppose I have an abstract base "bar" with the virtual function value(). Suppose I make two classes that inherit from this, "gold" and "soap", and give them each their own value() functions, which use different ways to calculate the value of each material. At runtime, I create a bar of soap and a bar of gold, and put them on a queue. When I want to tally their values, I pop an object from the queue, and execute bar->value(). I do not have to know whether I am getting the value of a bar of soap or a bar of gold. I can trust the return value to be correct. I'm not sure how that parallels with your point about *.so since I haven't dealt with dynamic shared libs in C too much. >The way I see it is that object-orientation is a methodology, and >languages aren't methodologies, so it's absurd to say that some language >"is" or "isn't" object-oriented. (I mean, we all know that the Bourne >shell "is object-oriented,"[1] right? :) The best you can do is to >describe the degree to which some language supports or enforces >object-oriented programming. Incidental to that, C++ provides many >abstractions which support object-oriented programming, while not >enforcing them in any way. I agree with the idea that new methodolgy is at the core of object-oriented programming. A very insightfile observation. New methodologies give birth to new languages that support them. Although the methodologies of object-oriented programming have largely been defined, they have not been fully resolved. There are some OO-languages that try to treat every atom of the language and data it manipulates as objects. For instance, Ruby treats characters as objects. There are probably some languages that try to treat ints as objects too. C++ doesn't go this far, but you can create a class in C++ to make an int an object, and use it. In most cases, it would be beyond the threshold of reason to do this. However, to say C++ isn't an "object-oriented language" becuase it doesn't support atom as an object would be unfair. It would be fairer to say that C++ has a high order of contact with the methodologies of object-oriented design, and therefore can be casually referred-to as an "object-oriented language". Likewise, it would be reasonable to say that the mechanisms of C have a low order of contact with object oriented methodologies by design, and therefore C can't be referred to as an object-oriented language. >But this is getting far off topic for this list; the bare facts remain: >- much of FreeBSD (kernel, userland) is written in C Yes. I believe the reason for this is partly historical. But C is not necessarily a better language for programming userland utilities. I really don't know about the kernel, but the thought someone trying to do it in C++ is kind of scarey to contemplate. Personally, I would be breaking down the door to participate if someone created another version of BSD to bridge the gap between old-world programming and modern-day methods. I love FreeBSD, I have followed it for years. But frankly, it's grown a bit stale, from a spectator's viewpoint. The more I learn about progamming the less I seem to respect the crufty old Unix traditions that nobody wants to break. Within the past couple of years, I have returned to school and am finishing prereq's to get into a CS program at the University of Washington. Right now, I'm doing 3rd quarter calculus and am bored out of my skull. The reason I am writing such long posts, is to avoid working with Taylor's formula (urp) And I still have 2 to 3 more years left... >- many FreeBSD ports are written in C++ > >So, as stated several times now, it really depends on what you want to >work on. Yep, I agree. So who wants to create another BSD distro and rewrite userland utilities in C++? Any takers? No? Just me? uh oh .... Hahahahaa! :) --Allan From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 14 01:07:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E6ED16A4CE for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 01:07:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B7DD43F3F for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 01:07:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 4E8F4530C; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:07:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id B89B15308; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:07:05 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 6968933C65; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:07:05 +0100 (CET) To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20031114002204.GA1035@online.fr> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:07:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20031114002204.GA1035@online.fr> (Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:22:04 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: ss X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.5 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DYNABLOCK autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:07:15 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Well, I don't know about slow, but I like those blurry drop-shadows :-) Drop shadows on menus are wrong. The menu is attached to the menu bar, which is in the plane of the application window, so it cannot possibly be floating a quarter-inch in front of and paralell to the application window as the shadow suggests. Drop shadows on regular windows are hardly any better. First, it raises the question of what plane the mouse pointer moves in; either the mouse pointer should cast a shadow, or the system should allow me to control its position in the Z axis, allowing me to move it between overlapping windows, etc. Second, the screenshots show windows casting shadows of equal width on other windows despite differences in conceptual depth. If window A is a quarter-inch in front of window B, and window B is a quarter-inch in front of window C, there should be a discernible difference in the shadows window A cast on windows B and C, and areas in which both A and B cast a shadow on C should be darker than areas in which only one of them casts a shadow. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 14 01:27:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C61616A4CE for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 01:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfenm.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.246]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 55CE243FD7 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 01:27:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 9973 invoked by uid 1002); 14 Nov 2003 09:27:27 -0000 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:27:27 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav Message-ID: <20031114092727.GA9867@online.fr> References: <20031114002204.GA1035@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:27:29 -0000 Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav said on Nov 14, 2003 at 10:07:05: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > Well, I don't know about slow, but I like those blurry drop-shadows :-) > > Drop shadows on menus are wrong. The menu is attached to the menu > bar, which is in the plane of the application window, so it cannot > possibly be floating a quarter-inch in front of and paralell to the > application window as the shadow suggests. In that screenshot, the menu does seem to be floating above the menu bar and casts a bit of a shadow on the menu bar. I see no harm in that but I agree it's not terribly useful. > Drop shadows on regular windows are hardly any better. First, it > raises the question of what plane the mouse pointer moves in; either > the mouse pointer should cast a shadow, or the system should allow me > to control its position in the Z axis, allowing me to move it between > overlapping windows, etc. Second, the screenshots show windows > casting shadows of equal width on other windows despite differences in > conceptual depth. If window A is a quarter-inch in front of window B, > and window B is a quarter-inch in front of window C, there should be a > discernible difference in the shadows window A cast on windows B and > C, and areas in which both A and B cast a shadow on C should be darker > than areas in which only one of them casts a shadow. I don't think it's necessary to interpret all this so literally. One may as well demand a ray-tracing program with a hypothetical light source some distance in front of the screen. The three-window inconsistency you describe is on http://freedesktop.org/~keithp/screenshots/screen1.png but I doubt anyone will be misled by it or even notice it unless they're looking for it. The main advantage of shadows would be to give extra relief to the window currently in focus. Especially nice if you have 20 windows open and come back after a coffee break. I'd equally like some simpler scheme which just slightly greys/desaturates everything except the window in focus (the way KDE/GNOME do when you're about to logout, but more understated), I imagine that would be easy to implement with alpha channels. On a related note, I think Apple's exposé is the neatest desktop feature I've seen in a very long time. Too bad I don't use/have Apple computers. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 14 09:10:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B0D16A4CE for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.aweber.com (mail1.aweber.com [207.106.239.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7926F43FDF for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:10:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@mail1.aweber.com) Received: (qmail 17396 invoked by uid 0); 14 Nov 2003 17:10:48 -0000 Message-ID: <20031114121048.17396.qmail@mail1.aweber.com> Content-type: text/plain To: "" From: "TNPC" X-Loop: tnpcnewsletter@aweber.com X-Remote-Host: X-mailer: AWeber 3.2 X_Id: 203447:1:chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:10:48 -0400 Subject: Welcome to the TNPCNewsletter! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:10:45 -0000 Thank you for confirming your subscription. We send TNPC about every other week. We value your privacy and will not share or sell your information to anyone outside of TNPC. Thank you! ~ Dan Butler -- Editor-in-Chief http://www.TNPCnewsletter.com/ To unsubscribe or change subscriber options visit: http://www.aweber.com/z/r/?TAzMLCzstMYWhi4CZk6mpkbOJnT2TuY= From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 14 13:11:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE97B16A4CE for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:11:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA4CB43F93 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:11:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2003111421114501100r1eube>; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:11:45 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hAEL9oTG043548; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:09:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id hAEL9jCe043547; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:09:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: "abowhill" References: <20031114044623.C119838124@mail.blarg.net> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:09:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20031114044623.C119838124@mail.blarg.net> (abowhill@blarg.net's message of "Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:47:01 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C/C++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:11:47 -0000 "abowhill" writes: > I love FreeBSD, I have followed it for years. But frankly, it's > grown a bit stale, from a spectator's viewpoint. The more I > learn about progamming the less I seem to respect the crufty > old Unix traditions that nobody wants to break. > > Within the past couple of years, I have returned to school > and am finishing prereq's to get into a CS program at the > University of Washington. You'll find plenty of people that want to break UNIX traditions while you're studying there in the Paul Allen Center, the large new CS building mostly funded by him and the Gates and MSFT. You'll probably even see many of them write "Unix" instead of the traditional "UNIX". http://students.washington.edu/linuxug/meetings.html still has an announcement for a 23 May 2002 Linux User Group meeting, so if you still have any desire to rub shoulders with non-MSFT folk, I suggest that you check out http://www.seabug.org and http://www.gslug.org . (I know that the UW does use UNIX (one sys admin frequents comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc), but I suspect that it's mostly down in the huge medical school facilities where reliability is still respected by some.) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 14 16:50:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BDD716A4CE for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:50:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (zoot.blarg.net [206.124.128.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8370443F93 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:50:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from io (vp047.dmp02.sea.blarg.net [206.124.131.47]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A81E433E02; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:50:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000801c3ab12$93e5d560$0200000a@io> From: "Allan Bowhill" To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <20031114044623.C119838124@mail.blarg.net> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:51:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C/C++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 00:50:31 -0000 > "abowhill" writes: > > > I love FreeBSD, I have followed it for years. But frankly, it's > > grown a bit stale, from a spectator's viewpoint. The more I > > learn about progamming the less I seem to respect the crufty > > old Unix traditions that nobody wants to break. > > > > Within the past couple of years, I have returned to school > > and am finishing prereq's to get into a CS program at the > > University of Washington. > > You'll find plenty of people that want to break UNIX traditions while > you're studying there in the Paul Allen Center, the large new CS > building mostly funded by him and the Gates and MSFT. You'll probably > even see many of them write "Unix" instead of the traditional "UNIX". Well, I won't exactly be going to the main campus, but a UW extension in Bothell, if I get accepted. They don't have a Paul Allen center for anything there, but they do have a fully-equipped LINUX lab :) The program is designed for returning students who want to prepare themselves professionally for CS based jobs. > http://students.washington.edu/linuxug/meetings.html still has an > announcement for a 23 May 2002 Linux User Group meeting, so if you > still have any desire to rub shoulders with non-MSFT folk, I suggest > that you check out http://www.seabug.org and http://www.gslug.org . Yeah, I was on the seabug list for awhile. I will probably resubscribe eventually. Speaking of rubbing shoulders, I ran into this guy a couple of years ago in the midst of all the layoffs, who noticed the FreeBSD bumpersticker on my car in the parking lot of a Circle-K near where I live. He got out of his car, knocked on my window, and asked me to get out of mine. He was kind of a big guy, so this made me a little nervous. Then he took off his shirt, and exposed two huge tattoos of Chuck on both shoulders. One shoulder had FreeBSD Chuck, and the other had an OpenBSD Chuck. I wonder if this is a metaphor for secret enthusiasm... > (I know that the UW does use UNIX (one sys admin frequents > comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc), but I suspect that it's mostly down in > the huge medical school facilities where reliability is still > respected by some.) > Nobody that knows FreeBSD is blind to its stability. Even C++ obsessives will attest to this. As for Unix at the UW, AFIK, there used to be a lot of Unix job postings at there, so there must have been be a lot of Unix activity. I don't know what the status is now with all the budget cuts. The UW is deferring a lot of things, until the funding can be sorted out. --Allan From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 14 17:04:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BDCA16A4CE for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4611B43FCB for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:04:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hAF14OC7055892; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:04:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000801c3ab12$93e5d560$0200000a@io> References: <20031114044623.C119838124@mail.blarg.net> <000801c3ab12$93e5d560$0200000a@io> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 02:04:32 +0100 To: "Allan Bowhill" From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C/C++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:04:30 -0000 At 4:51 PM -0800 2003/11/14, Allan Bowhill wrote: > Then > he took off his shirt, and exposed two huge tattoos of Chuck on both > shoulders. > One shoulder had FreeBSD Chuck, and the other had an OpenBSD Chuck. I like the story, but I would like to point out that there is no "Chuck". Quoting from : Many folks have asked about the BSD daemon's name. Contrary to a myth first started by some advertising droid at Walnut Creek, the daemon's name is NOT Chuck. He is very proud of the fact that he does not have a name, he is just the BSD daemon. If you insist on a name, call him beastie. But the rest of the story is a good one. Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 14 19:13:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89B7A16A4CE for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:13:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from carver.gumbysoft.com (carver.gumbysoft.com [66.220.23.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2AE343FE1 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:13:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwhite@gumbysoft.com) Received: by carver.gumbysoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D5AFC72DB5; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:13:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carver.gumbysoft.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D360872DAD; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:13:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:13:03 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White To: TNPC In-Reply-To: <20031114121048.17396.qmail@mail1.aweber.com> Message-ID: <20031114191255.K95782@carver.gumbysoft.com> References: <20031114121048.17396.qmail@mail1.aweber.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Welcome to the TNPCNewsletter! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 03:13:04 -0000 On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, TNPC wrote: > Thank you for confirming your subscription. We send TNPC about every other week. > We value your privacy and will not share or sell your information to anyone outside of TNPC. > Thank you! Thanks to who unsub'd this. -- Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@gumbysoft.com | www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 14 20:15:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9260E16A4CE for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:15:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (floyd.blarg.net [206.124.128.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0250F43F3F for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:15:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from io (vp227.dmp02.sea.blarg.net [206.124.131.227]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 47FFB380BF; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:13:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000a01c3ab2e$fb028ec0$0200000a@io> From: "Allan Bowhill" To: "Brad Knowles" References: <20031114044623.C119838124@mail.blarg.net> <000801c3ab12$93e5d560$0200000a@io> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:14:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C/C++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 04:15:06 -0000 > I like the story, but I would like to point out that there is no > "Chuck". Quoting from : > > Many folks have asked about the BSD daemon's name. Contrary > to a myth first started by some advertising droid at Walnut > Creek, the daemon's name is NOT Chuck. He is very proud of > the fact that he does not have a name, he is just the BSD > daemon. If you insist on a name, call him beastie. I believe you. But it may be too late. The name is tatooed on my brain. I will try to rehabilitate my usage if I can remember. I like the idea that he doesn't have a name, but that invites marketing people to do what they do. I am tempted to believe "Chuck" may have been derived from the mysterious "Charlie &" (root) in the passwd file. Is this merely a coincidence? > But the rest of the story is a good one. Thanks! It seemed appropriate... --Allan From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 15 09:39:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93AAD16A4CE for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:39:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7857843FDF for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:39:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2003111517393401100qsjuue>; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:39:34 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hAFHbXTG061138 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:37:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id hAFHbSqr061137; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:37:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20031114044623.C119838124@mail.blarg.net> <000801c3ab12$93e5d560$0200000a@io> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:37:28 -0800 In-Reply-To: (Brad Knowles's message of "Sat, 15 Nov 2003 02:04:32 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: C/C++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:39:36 -0000 Brad Knowles writes: > Many folks have asked about the BSD daemon's name. Contrary > to a myth first started by some advertising droid at Walnut > Creek, the daemon's name is NOT Chuck. He is very proud of > the fact that he does not have a name, he is just the BSD > daemon. If you insist on a name, call him beastie. Maybe the British have it right; they say "He is called Chuck", rather than "He is named Chuck". There's no denying that Beastie is called Chuck. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 15 10:18:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5228916A4CE for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F367D43FE3 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:18:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 5D9A5530C; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:18:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 159C05308; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:18:05 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 9EA5533C68; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:18:05 +0100 (CET) To: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) References: <20031114044623.C119838124@mail.blarg.net> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:18:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Gary W. Swearingen's message of "Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:09:45 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: ss X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.5 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DYNABLOCK autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: abowhill cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C/C++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:18:16 -0000 underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > You'll find plenty of people that want to break UNIX traditions while > you're studying there in the Paul Allen Center, the large new CS > building mostly funded by him and the Gates and MSFT. You'll probably > even see many of them write "Unix" instead of the traditional "UNIX". "Unix" is the correct spelling. "UNIX" is a misunderstanding caused by the use of small caps in the title of an early paper on Unix. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 15 13:43:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E4B16A4CE for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net (razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.248]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F26043F75 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:43:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfm4r.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.216.155] helo=mindspring.com) by razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AL8CS-0000P8-00; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:43:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3FB69E15.A09E6B18@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:43:49 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: abowhill References: <20031114044623.C119838124@mail.blarg.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b705f10381358b78a844e4a509acbd54350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C/C++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:43:27 -0000 abowhill wrote: > Yes. I believe the reason for this is partly historical. But C is > not necessarily a better language for programming userland utilities. > I really don't know about the kernel, but the thought someone trying to > do it in C++ is kind of scarey to contemplate. In 1993, I saw someone working with a C++ kernel at the University of Kentucky. They took their standard FS and implemented ACLs for it in less than one hour by subclassing it. They then spent another 3 hours subclassing their user space tools to complete the full implementation of the feature. Finally, nothing in the kernel other than subclassing the superclass that provided the system call interface really had to change, since all the existing code that dealt with FS's did so through an abstract interface implemented a pure virtual subclass of a pure virtual base class. People who claim C++ isn't an object oriented language just don't know how to use the languages features properly, and need to educate themselves better. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 15 15:28:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EAEB16A4CE for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:28:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net (razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.248]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2102043FB1 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:28:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfj2j.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.204.83] helo=mindspring.com) by razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AL9pq-0003jz-00; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:28:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3FB6B684.F26515FB@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 15:28:04 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <20031114044623.C119838124@mail.blarg.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4d7b71d7f311faea5ac01103ffa4e36cda7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: abowhill cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C/C++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:28:15 -0000 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > > You'll find plenty of people that want to break UNIX traditions while= > > you're studying there in the Paul Allen Center, the large new CS > > building mostly funded by him and the Gates and MSFT. You'll probabl= y > > even see many of them write "Unix" instead of the traditional "UNIX".= > = > "Unix" is the correct spelling. "UNIX" is a misunderstanding caused > by the use of small caps in the title of an early paper on Unix. Actually, it's "UNIX", if you are referring to the image trademark, and [Uu][Nn][Ii][Xx] if you are referring to the wordmark (wordmarks are case insensitive). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 15 20:42:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7595B16A4CE for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02EC543FB1 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:42:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.dougb.net (12-234-18-52.client.attbi.com[12.234.18.52]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003111604422501400r8ua1e>; Sun, 16 Nov 2003 04:42:25 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:42:25 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031115204057.H9349@znfgre.qbhto.arg> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Good basic article on unicode, etc. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 04:42:26 -0000 For those (like me) who haven't had a lot of time to learn the fine points of unicode, here is a good introductory article on it: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Unicode.html Enjoy, Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 15 20:57:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3400A16A4CE for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:57:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from purple.the-7.net (purple.the-7.net [207.158.28.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C383D43F85 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:57:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@astralblue.net) Received: from astralblue.net (adsl-68-123-46-151.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [68.123.46.151]) by purple.the-7.net (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hAG4x2KF022220; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:59:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@astralblue.net) Message-ID: <3FB703A8.7020607@astralblue.net> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:57:12 -0800 From: =?UTF-8?B?IkV1Z2VuZSBNLiBLaW0g6rmA66+87ISxIg==?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert References: <20031112091032.GA4425@cactus> <3FB3758A.9B52625D@mindspring.com> <3FB3B4FB.1050304@astralblue.net> <3FB4A095.AF27549F@mindspring.com> <3FB5524E.30107@astralblue.net> <3FB6AE08.98235EF4@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3FB6AE08.98235EF4@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on purple.the-7.net cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: xscreensaver bug? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 04:57:22 -0000 (Redirected to chat@) Terry Lambert wrote: >"Eugene M. Kim" wrote: > >>Validating a root password is possible with other means in many cases, if not always. OpenSSH sshd is a good example. Even with PermitRootLogin set to no, the attacker can differentiate whether the password has been accepted or not. >> > >That's because the software in question sucks, not because it's a >natural property of all such software. > Sorry, but no matter how much sshd sucks, we currently have it. It's even enabled by default. =) The assumption that unprivileged users won't be able to verify the root password is therefore dangerous, unless the administrator took additional security precautions (e.g. disabling sshd). >>If attacker is able enough, he could also run a hacked version of Xnest on port 6000+N and the real xscreensaver on :N.0 for a suitable N. Attacker would feed the real xscreensaver with the captured password and see if the real xscreensaver releases the server grab. >> > >Yeah, and any user on the system could put up a trojan that put up a window that pretended to be the login screen instead of a screen saver, since that would be much easier, and harvest passwords that >way, instead, after pretending the first login failed. > >I don't really see your point... any time you have more than one user using the same console, it's possible to create a trojan. > My point is that the root password, or any replayable password, shouldn't be entered on such insecure terminals. (Did someone say... OPIE? XD) All in all, it does seem that the feature of xscreensaver (that lets the root password to unlock someone else's xscreensaver) is dangerous, because there's no such thing as someone else's xscreensaver that root can trust. Eugene P.S. The `Press Ctrl-Alt-Del to log on' feature of Windows 2000/XP is indeed one cool security feature. It assures the user that the login window is not an unprivileged trojan. =)