From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Feb 9 18:43: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A49C37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 18:43:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from abcy.office-abc.co.jp (abcy.office-abc.co.jp [211.0.31.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AD0543FBD; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 18:42:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from iidinjz@att.net) Received: from tjgc.upcnc [90.0.160.84] by abcy.office-abc.co.jp with ESMTP id AOUVUP; Sun, 09 Feb 03 18:37:19 +0400 Received: from 43izit6rj [43.134.43.24] by 90.0.160.84 with ESMTP id RIHYE; Sun, 09 Feb 03 18:21:19 +0400 Message-ID: <2x1gj7u13pn6ws-l9@8bn89yw09c> From: "Lana Hyatt" To: , , , , , , Subject: This is the email you have been waiting for Date: Sun, 09 Feb 03 18:21:19 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="7C4.F91._2_B6.E66EF" Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --7C4.F91._2_B6.E66EF Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do you think that attorneys overcharge? http://rd.yahoo.com/^Random/075198/*http://198.170.236.87 And that is just the surface of what we offer! http://rd.yahoo.com/^Random/075198/*http://198.170.236.87 If you don't want to get anymore of these emails, click HERE: legalsys_rem88@yahoo.co.in and send us a blank email. --7C4.F91._2_B6.E66EF-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 10 18:47: 6 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EECF937B401 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from web12804.mail.yahoo.com (web12804.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F24743F3F for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:47:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hans@nyphp.org) Message-ID: <20030211024704.2200.qmail@web12804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.114.70.134] by web12804.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:47:04 PST X-RocketYMMF: zaunere Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:47:04 -0800 (PST) From: Hans Zaunere Reply-To: hans@nyphp.org Subject: Stretching Filesystems To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I'm working with developing a jail() based server for some community sites I'm involved with. While I've successfully administered jail() based servers for sometime, some new concerns have risen. My platform will remain 4.7-STABLE for some time. Basically, my major concern is filesystem flexibility, namely resizing and trying to limit the restrictions of the physical disk's capacity and layout. Let's say I have a 25gb drive, one large slice, and divided up into 3 5gb partitions, a,d and e. Now if 'd' wants 10gb of capacity, how can I best accomodate that? Correct me if I'm wrong, but growfs won't work with "middle" partitions? I've looked into using file-backed vnode (vn) drives as well. But again I'm stumped. I've tried using growfs, or trying to manually edit the file itself to increase available space but to no avail. Any thoughts on the best way to get maximum flexibility from a regular hard disk like? Any functionality I'm missing? Granted, for deploying jails all I need is a directory. However, again I'm stumped, since I see no way of limiting the space used by a particular directory/jail. Thank you, ===== Hans Zaunere President, New York PHP http://nyphp.org hans@nyphp.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 10 19:14:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF81637B405 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:14:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13404.mail.yahoo.com (web13404.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 248DF43FAF for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:14:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030211031438.42114.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.24.79.141] by web13404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 04:14:38 CET Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 04:14:38 +0100 (CET) From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20F.=20Giffuni?=" Subject: FFS performance improvements? To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (sorry for the crossposting, replies should probably go to -fs) Hi; I heard a complaint on the FreeBSD lists about journalling being faster than softupdates. While I'm not extremely interested in comparisons with other fs's that I can't use, I do recall it is possible to enhance FFS speed with the tricks used in CFFS. JIC ppl forgot, and since it is a good reference, the classic document is here: http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/pubs.html (under Storage Management) Of the two tricks explained there, explicit grouping gave the most significant performance improvements, without causing problematic side effects. I've been "bugging" the only two persons I know that might have some patches for this with the following results: __________ I considered doing the co-location game in UFS2, but in the end decided that the performance gain was not sufficient to take the effort to do it. So, I put my effort into other things. Kirk McKusick __________ C-FFS required changes to OpenBSD so that the buffer cache would cache raw disk blocks and would consult those cached raw disk blocks before going to the disk device. I do have some old patches and I'll try to dig them up. It was my first kernel project for BSD unix and is definitely nowhere close to production quality. (probaby lots of mistakes related to concurrency and resource management) http://pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~csapuntz/cffs.tar.gz -Costa __________ So, my questions are... 1) Although porting C-FFS is probably not the way to go, do we need to modify the VM to fulfill the requirements, or perhaps this is something GEOM can do? (sorry I don't have clear exactly what GEOM does, but it would seem somewhat related to caching raw disks) 2) Since I'm not really into kernel hacking, if I do find the patches for FFS is someone interested in playing with them in exchange for improvements of "just" between 10-50% with small files ?? ;). cheers, Pedro. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Cellulari: loghi, suonerie, picture message per il tuo telefonino http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mobile.yahoo.com/index2002.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 13:16:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6DF237B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:16:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ra.dweebsoft.com (ra.dweebsoft.com [209.237.40.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3989043FBF; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:16:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from daxbert_news@dweebsoft.com) Received: from daxhome (anubis.dweebsoft.com [64.81.58.36]) by ra.dweebsoft.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with SMTP id h1CLGE47047304; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:16:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from daxbert_news@dweebsoft.com) Message-ID: <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> From: "Daxbert" To: "Bill Moran" , "Heinrich Rebehn" Cc: , References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> Subject: Why is there no JFS? Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:16:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The inspiration for this email was from a thread in -questions: "Re: fsck takes very long after crash/reset" Is anybody currently working on or does there exist a JFS for FreeBSD? I've read in the archives, the discussion about not really needing JFS because of the benefits of softupdates. As well as some talk about BSD / GPL license issues. Is there not a JFS for FreeBSD becuase, Softupdates do the job just fine and nobody has the time or interest to work on this? I'm not running FreeBSD 5.x. So I'm not able to take advantage of the background fsck. Can anybody comment on their success w/ the background fsck? If a JFS were to be ported and/or developed for FreeBSD what should it be based on? XFS, JFS, ReiserFS??? Who would be considered the "maintainer" for this type of work? --daxbert To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 14:38:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA64B37B401 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mired.org (ip68-97-54-220.ok.ok.cox.net [68.97.54.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3EF3343FA3 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:38:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm-dated-1045521486.a2e8ef@mired.org) Received: (qmail 59564 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2003 22:38:06 -0000 Received: from localhost.mired.org (HELO guru.mired.org) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.mired.org with SMTP; 12 Feb 2003 22:38:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15946.52429.222082.74590@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:38:05 -0600 To: "Daxbert" Cc: "Bill Moran" , "Heinrich Rebehn" , , Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? In-Reply-To: <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`; h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.69 (Count Fleet) Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com>, Daxbert typed: > Is anybody currently working on or does there exist > a JFS for FreeBSD? To the best of my knowledge, there is no JFS, and nobody is working on one. > I've read in the archives, the discussion about > not really needing JFS because of the benefits of > softupdates. As well as some talk about BSD / GPL > license issues. That should have answered most of your questions. Possibly you need the -current and/or -hackers archives as well. > Is there not a JFS for FreeBSD becuase, Softupdates > do the job just fine and nobody has the > time or interest to work on this? Softupdates with a background fsck solve the problem of wanting to come back up quickly after a crash, which is the most common reason people ask for a JFS. > I'm not running FreeBSD 5.x. So I'm not able to take > advantage of the background fsck. Can anybody comment > on their success w/ the background fsck? Someone in the archives indicated that there limited testing things worked fine. I assume Kirk has tested this as well. > If a JFS were to be ported and/or developed for FreeBSD > what should it be based on? XFS, JFS, ReiserFS??? One with a license that will let it be distributed in the core. That lets out GPL'ed code, and I believe it lets out XFS as well, though I'm not positive on that. > Who would be considered the "maintainer" for this type of > work? Whoever did the work, of course. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 14:41:51 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4ECD37B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.det3.ameritech.net (mailhost2-sfldmi.sfldmi.ameritech.net [206.141.193.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA4443F85; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:41:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dbailey27@ameritech.net) Received: from ameritech.net ([67.38.15.139]) by mailhost.det3.ameritech.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with ESMTP id <20030212224123.MDW176.mailhost.det3.ameritech.net@ameritech.net>; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 17:41:23 -0500 Message-ID: <3E4ACD84.60308@ameritech.net> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 17:41:08 -0500 From: northern snowfall User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020518 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <15946.52429.222082.74590@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >One with a license that will let it be distributed in the core. That >lets out GPL'ed code, and I believe it lets out XFS as well, though >I'm not positive on that. > Just FYI, IBM's JFS is GPL'd, IIRC, according 2 the WWW site for JFS. Hah, yay for acronyms. http://www-124.ibm.com/developerworks/oss/jfs/index.html Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 14:56:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F7837B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:56:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-233-57-224.client.attbi.com [12.233.57.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD1F43FBD; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:56:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h1CMuWDm010421; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:56:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h1CMuVMf010420; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:56:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:56:31 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Daxbert Cc: Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? Message-ID: <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Daxbert : > The inspiration for this email was from a thread in > -questions: "Re: fsck takes very long after crash/reset" > > Is anybody currently working on or does there exist > a JFS for FreeBSD? ... > Is there not a JFS for FreeBSD becuase, Softupdates > do the job just fine and nobody has the > time or interest to work on this? Various people have indicated that they might try to implement them, but there really isn't a lot of support for the idea. People already have softupdates, so there's substantially less incentive to support another technology for ensuring metadata consistency. (As Terry will surely point out if I don't, Softupdates and journalling don't solve *exactly* the same set of problems.) > I'm not running FreeBSD 5.x. So I'm not able to take > advantage of the background fsck. Can anybody comment > on their success w/ the background fsck? Problems have been reported for very large (60 GB+) drives, but otherwise it seems to work well. It is only appropriate to use if the reason you need to fsck is a crash or power failure. If a hardware or software bug messes up part of your FS, you need to run a foreground fsck. > If a JFS were to be ported and/or developed for FreeBSD > what should it be based on? XFS, JFS, ReiserFS??? It would be easier to add journalling to FFS than to port one of the above filesystems, and the licensing would be problematic. It is less problematic for ReiserFS because Hans Reiser is willing to make exceptions to the GPL as long as e.g. Apple can't build OS X on top of FreeBSD and thereby get ReiserFS without sharing the profits with him. But you still have to find someone for whom softupdates isn't good enough who is willing to do the work. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 15: 9:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91E9337B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:09:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts16.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8C243FAF; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:09:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@gsicomp.on.ca) Received: from gabby.gsicomp.on.ca ([65.95.176.5]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20030212230933.OXBQ13046.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@gabby.gsicomp.on.ca>; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 18:09:33 -0500 Received: from hermes (hermes.gsicomp.on.ca [192.168.0.18]) by gabby.gsicomp.on.ca (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h1CN6RjC044669; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 18:06:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from matt@gsicomp.on.ca) Message-ID: <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> From: "Matthew Emmerton" To: "David Schultz" , "Daxbert" Cc: "Bill Moran" , "Heinrich Rebehn" , , References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 18:08:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Thus spake Daxbert : > > The inspiration for this email was from a thread in > > -questions: "Re: fsck takes very long after crash/reset" > > > > Is anybody currently working on or does there exist > > a JFS for FreeBSD? Various people (including myself and Hiten Pandya) have done work to port the GPL'd JFS implementation, but there's one ugly problem -- the GPL. We can make JFS into a kernel module (avoiding the static-link policy of the GPL), but then it can only (legally) be used on non-root filesystems, as the code to read the root filesystem must be statically linked into the kernel. This in itself makes JFS support somewhat pointless. This is the same reason why XFS and ReiserFS haven't been ported -- the GPL prevents us from statically linking the code into the kernel, hence we can't support booting from any XFS/JFS/ResierFS filesystems. -- Matt Emmerton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 15:51: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B5B37B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:51:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F33B43FBD; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:50:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABC321005F; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:50:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pantherdragon.org (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2586AB6A; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:50:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:50:54 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Emmerton Cc: David Schultz , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> In-Reply-To: <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew Emmerton wrote: >>Thus spake Daxbert : >> >>>The inspiration for this email was from a thread in >>>-questions: "Re: fsck takes very long after crash/reset" >>> >>>Is anybody currently working on or does there exist >>>a JFS for FreeBSD? > > > Various people (including myself and Hiten Pandya) have done work to port > the GPL'd JFS implementation, but there's one ugly problem -- the GPL. > > We can make JFS into a kernel module (avoiding the static-link policy of the > GPL), but then it can only (legally) be used on non-root filesystems, as the > code to read the root filesystem must be statically linked into the kernel. > This in itself makes JFS support somewhat pointless. Not really. A properly laid-out filesystem hierarchy will result in no writes to / (except for installworld/kernel). That removes the problem that journalling addresses, and is probably why softupdates is disabled by default for /. For large, active filesystems, journalling would be a big improvement when you had to run a foreground fsck. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 18:43:27 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7516D37B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 18:43:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D46D843F3F; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 18:43:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0418.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.163] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18j9LJ-0004rK-00; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 18:43:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4B05F4.1321DCE3@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 18:41:56 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: northern snowfall Cc: Mike Meyer , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <15946.52429.222082.74590@guru.mired.org> <3E4ACD84.60308@ameritech.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4eba57c6774183d52307c350feca9d7ba666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org northern snowfall wrote: > Just FYI, IBM's JFS is GPL'd, IIRC, according 2 the WWW site for JFS. > Hah, yay for acronyms. And the IBM JFS is actually the OS/2 JFS, not the AIX JFS. -- TRL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 19:41:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD77637B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:41:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BF3843FA3; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:41:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0418.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.163] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jAFY-00031C-00; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:41:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:40:00 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: Matthew Emmerton , David Schultz , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4dfa0e541153ecfc11414c96ce2d021343ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Not really. A properly laid-out filesystem hierarchy will result in no > writes to / (except for installworld/kernel). That removes the problem > that journalling addresses, and is probably why softupdates is disabled > by default for /. For large, active filesystems, journalling would be a > big improvement when you had to run a foreground fsck. Soft updates are disable on / by default because of the chicken and egg problem of runing tunefs on /. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 20:51: 6 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED8FE37B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:51:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FE3643F85; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:51:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C64461005F; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pantherdragon.org (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE23AB6A; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:50:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E4B2433.70301@pantherdragon.org> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:50:59 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Matthew Emmerton , David Schultz , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Darren Pilgrim wrote: > >>Not really. A properly laid-out filesystem hierarchy will result in no >>writes to / (except for installworld/kernel). That removes the problem >>that journalling addresses, and is probably why softupdates is disabled >>by default for /. For large, active filesystems, journalling would be a >>big improvement when you had to run a foreground fsck. > > > Soft updates are disable on / by default because of the chicken > and egg problem of runing tunefs on /. If that's the problem, then why doesn't sysinstall enable it by default when partitioning for a new install? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 21: 6:50 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3931137B406 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:06:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.tenebras.com (laptop.tenebras.com [66.92.188.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F9BF43F75 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:06:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: (qmail 61998 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2003 05:06:46 -0000 Received: from sapphire.tenebras.com (HELO tenebras.com) (192.168.188.241) by 0 with SMTP; 13 Feb 2003 05:06:46 -0000 Message-ID: <3E4B27E6.6010501@tenebras.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:06:46 -0800 From: Michael Sierchio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <3E4B2433.70301@pantherdragon.org> In-Reply-To: <3E4B2433.70301@pantherdragon.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim wrote: >> Soft updates are disable on / by default because of the chicken >> and egg problem of runing tunefs on /. > > > If that's the problem, then why doesn't sysinstall enable it by default > when partitioning for a new install? You can certainly change the options in sysinstall to force Softupdates on / In general, there's little to be gained from it -- on most systems, / is essentially a read-only filesystem, with very little metadata changed except for atime. BTW, IIRC you can certainly 'tunefs -n enable /' while in single-user mode. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 21: 7:46 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4E637B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:07:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B830843F85; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:07:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (IDENT:brdavis@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h1D57R6F011952; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:07:27 -0800 Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id h1D57LbS011940; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:07:21 -0800 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:07:21 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: Terry Lambert Cc: Darren Pilgrim , Matthew Emmerton , David Schultz , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? Message-ID: <20030212210721.A9481@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 07:40:00PM -0800 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) on odin.ac.hmc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 07:40:00PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > Not really. A properly laid-out filesystem hierarchy will result in no > > writes to / (except for installworld/kernel). That removes the problem > > that journalling addresses, and is probably why softupdates is disabled > > by default for /. For large, active filesystems, journalling would be a > > big improvement when you had to run a foreground fsck. >=20 > Soft updates are disable on / by default because of the chicken > and egg problem of runing tunefs on /. There's no chicken and egg problem when you're booting off install media or for that matter from single user mode. The problem was that softupdates means you don't get space back from deleted files immediatly so previously / tended to fillup during installworld or installkernel. I know some fixes have been implemented in that area, but I'm not sure if then mean you can always write to the space occupied by unlinked files or just that you have a better chance. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+SygIXY6L6fI4GtQRAo3wAJ92P2bZ+09ft0P9v0VEKrL5w1n4vgCgkRZB vbtK7h3KQKhvXCBWaiThyow= =SfH5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 21:16:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B1937B401 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:16:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from bilver.wjv.com (user38.net339.fl.sprint-hsd.net [65.40.24.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47A2343FA3 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:16:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bv@wjv.com) Received: from bilver.wjv.com (localhost.wjv.com [127.0.0.1]) by bilver.wjv.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1D5GRbD040099 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 00:16:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bv@wjv.com) Received: (from bv@localhost) by bilver.wjv.com (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h1D5GQkY040098 for freebsd-fs@freebsd.org; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 00:16:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 00:16:26 -0500 From: Bill Vermillion To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? Message-ID: <20030213051626.GI38446@wjv.com> Reply-To: bv@wjv.com References: <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <3E4B2433.70301@pantherdragon.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E4B2433.70301@pantherdragon.org> Organization: W.J.Vermillion / Orlando - Winter Park ReplyTo: bv@wjv.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.8 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,NOSPAM_INC,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_BE_REMOVED_REPLY,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.43 Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 20:50 Darren Pilgrim said 'Who you talkin' to? You talkin' to Darren Pilgrim? I didn't do nuttin'. I said: > Terry Lambert wrote: > >Darren Pilgrim wrote: > >>Not really. A properly laid-out filesystem hierarchy will > >>result in no writes to / (except for installworld/kernel). > >>That removes the problem that journalling addresses, and > >>is probably why softupdates is disabled by default for /. > >>For large, active filesystems, journalling would be a big > >>improvement when you had to run a foreground fsck. > >Soft updates are disable on / by default because of the chicken > >and egg problem of runing tunefs on /. > If that's the problem, then why doesn't sysinstall enable it by > default when partitioning for a new install? I certainly don't remember anthing like that. I do recall reading at one time - and I can't point you to it - that softupdates are not recommended for / If you follow the recommended layouts you really don't now. In the 8-12 systems I maintain my largest / is 130MB while /usr is 115GB [with a 5GB /usr2 where I can stick things] It certainly takes almost no time to fsck / Bill > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message -- Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 21:19:59 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C69AE37B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-233-57-224.client.attbi.com [12.233.57.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5BB243FAF; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:19:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h1D5JrDm011596; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:19:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h1D5Jqbw011595; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:19:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:19:52 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Brooks Davis Cc: Terry Lambert , Darren Pilgrim , Matthew Emmerton , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? Message-ID: <20030213051952.GA11572@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Brooks Davis , Terry Lambert , Darren Pilgrim , Matthew Emmerton , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <20030212210721.A9481@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030212210721.A9481@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Brooks Davis : > On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 07:40:00PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > > Not really. A properly laid-out filesystem hierarchy will result in no > > > writes to / (except for installworld/kernel). That removes the problem > > > that journalling addresses, and is probably why softupdates is disabled > > > by default for /. For large, active filesystems, journalling would be a > > > big improvement when you had to run a foreground fsck. > > > > Soft updates are disable on / by default because of the chicken > > and egg problem of runing tunefs on /. > > There's no chicken and egg problem when you're booting off install > media or for that matter from single user mode. The problem was that > softupdates means you don't get space back from deleted files immediatly > so previously / tended to fillup during installworld or installkernel. > I know some fixes have been implemented in that area, but I'm not sure > if then mean you can always write to the space occupied by unlinked > files or just that you have a better chance. The problem is effectively fixed in 5.0. Basically, when no space can be found, the syncer is accelerated to try to speed up frees. Technically it's possible to run into a livelock, where you keep freeing space and it keeps getting snatched up before you can grab it, so you wait forever. So IIRC, there is a point where it just gives up on finding the space. However, that won't happen with an install, so the free space problem isn't a reason not to use softupdates on the root FS. I think the default hasn't been changed just because nobody has bothered. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 22:52:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CB1637B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA1043F75; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:52:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0060.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.60] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jDEL-0007jr-00; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:52:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4B4054.EB948A91@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:51:00 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: Matthew Emmerton , David Schultz , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <3E4B2433.70301@pantherdragon.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b33fe5c147bdbdc31fb68f21404b87673ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > Soft updates are disable on / by default because of the chicken > > and egg problem of runing tunefs on /. > > If that's the problem, then why doesn't sysinstall enable it by default > when partitioning for a new install? Oliver Stone said it was because there's a conspiracy. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 22:56:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC23337B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:56:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from rip.psg.com (rip.psg.com [147.28.0.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10EF043F3F; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:56:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from randy@psg.com) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rip.psg.com) by rip.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 18jDIJ-000FKB-00; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:56:27 -0800 From: Randy Bush MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:56:25 -0800 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Darren Pilgrim , Matthew Emmerton , David Schultz , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <3E4B2433.70301@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B4054.EB948A91@mindspring.com> Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>> Soft updates are disable on / by default because of the chicken >>> and egg problem of runing tunefs on /. >> If that's the problem, then why doesn't sysinstall enable it by default >> when partitioning for a new install? > Oliver Stone said it was because there's a conspiracy. it's the downdraft from the black helicopters To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 23: 2:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F28DF37B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:02:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49DB643F93; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:02:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0060.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.60] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jDNl-0000mV-00; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:02:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4B429D.5DCFB0E9@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:00:45 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Sierchio Cc: Darren Pilgrim , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <3E4B2433.70301@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B27E6.6010501@tenebras.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b33fe5c147bdbdc3dd65e01473813236350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Michael Sierchio wrote: > Darren Pilgrim wrote: > >> Soft updates are disable on / by default because of the chicken > >> and egg problem of runing tunefs on /. > > > > If that's the problem, then why doesn't sysinstall enable it by default > > when partitioning for a new install? > > You can certainly change the options in sysinstall to force Softupdates > on / > > In general, there's little to be gained from it -- on most systems, / is > essentially a read-only filesystem, with very little metadata changed except > for atime. > > BTW, IIRC you can certainly 'tunefs -n enable /' while in single-user mode. If it's mounted read-only, which requires no other mounts, then you can do it. I believe the reason it's not "on" in sysinstall is that sysinstall tries to mount things async on the initial install, so that doing things like unpacking ports doesn't take forever. If it fails, you can just restart, and having to do that a couple of times is still faster than waiting for ordered metadata. The technical reason that it doesn't do it is that the mount update is not logically an "unmount without destroying vnodes(inodes) in core, with a remount with the new options". The main reason for that is that the dependencies go all the way to the buffer cache, and the backing vnode (e.g. the "raw" device) that's mounted does not necessarily get its buffers flushed. Basically, you'd have to put a little more work into the "mount update" code. This was discussed a long time ago on -arch, when soft updates first came into FreeBSD, and then again every 18 months or so, ever after. See Kirk's postings on the subject, if you don't want to take mine for it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 23:18:51 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB3037B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD7643F93; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:18:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0060.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.60] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jDdn-00054j-00; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:18:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4B467B.4DCF6D5@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:17:15 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz Cc: Brooks Davis , Darren Pilgrim , Matthew Emmerton , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <20030212210721.A9481@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20030213051952.GA11572@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4bbafef6825ccc3a32be407111dfa09be3ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz wrote: > > There's no chicken and egg problem when you're booting off install > > media or for that matter from single user mode. The problem was that > > softupdates means you don't get space back from deleted files immediatly > > so previously / tended to fillup during installworld or installkernel. > > I know some fixes have been implemented in that area, but I'm not sure > > if then mean you can always write to the space occupied by unlinked > > files or just that you have a better chance. > > The problem is effectively fixed in 5.0. Basically, when no space > can be found, the syncer is accelerated to try to speed up frees. > Technically it's possible to run into a livelock, where you keep > freeing space and it keeps getting snatched up before you can grab > it, so you wait forever. So IIRC, there is a point where it just > gives up on finding the space. However, that won't happen with an > install, so the free space problem isn't a reason not to use > softupdates on the root FS. I think the default hasn't been > changed just because nobody has bothered. The easy way to fix this is to insert a new dependency for the completion of the allocation. Basically, this would put in a stall barrier that would cause the outstanding I/O to drain before the new I/O was attempted. All other operations behind the one that caused the stall would b held off, which would avoid the starvation deadlock you describe. Most likely, all this would require some minor code to maintain a running tally of virtual vs. real free block count. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 23:37:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376B537B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix.infradead.org (carisma.slowglass.com [195.224.96.167]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAE3743FB1; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:37:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hch@infradead.org) Received: from hch by phoenix.infradead.org with local (Exim 4.10) id 18jDvU-00079y-00; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:36:56 +0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:36:56 +0000 From: Christoph Hellwig To: Terry Lambert Cc: northern snowfall , Mike Meyer , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? Message-ID: <20030213073656.A27419@infradead.org> References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <15946.52429.222082.74590@guru.mired.org> <3E4ACD84.60308@ameritech.net> <3E4B05F4.1321DCE3@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3E4B05F4.1321DCE3@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 06:41:56PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 06:41:56PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > northern snowfall wrote: > > Just FYI, IBM's JFS is GPL'd, IIRC, according 2 the WWW site for JFS. > > Hah, yay for acronyms. > > And the IBM JFS is actually the OS/2 JFS, not the AIX JFS. Or AIX JFS2 :) (In fact both AIX JFS2 (j2) and JFS/Linux are pretty different from JFS for OS/2 now, both code-wise and due to additions to the ondisk format. Unfortunately the AIX JFS2 group doesn't even publish documentation on their changes so that the Linux driver uses e.g. a different way of storing ACLs.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 12 23:44:59 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88B1337B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:44:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-233-57-224.client.attbi.com [12.233.57.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6863843F93; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:44:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.berkeley.edu) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h1D7inDm012131; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.berkeley.edu) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h1D7in8v012130; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.berkeley.edu) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:44:49 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brooks Davis , Darren Pilgrim , Matthew Emmerton , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? Message-ID: <20030213074449.GA12084@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Brooks Davis , Darren Pilgrim , Matthew Emmerton , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <20030212210721.A9481@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20030213051952.GA11572@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3E4B467B.4DCF6D5@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E4B467B.4DCF6D5@mindspring.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Terry Lambert : > David Schultz wrote: > > > There's no chicken and egg problem when you're booting off install > > > media or for that matter from single user mode. The problem was that > > > softupdates means you don't get space back from deleted files immediatly > > > so previously / tended to fillup during installworld or installkernel. > > > I know some fixes have been implemented in that area, but I'm not sure > > > if then mean you can always write to the space occupied by unlinked > > > files or just that you have a better chance. > > > > The problem is effectively fixed in 5.0. Basically, when no space > > can be found, the syncer is accelerated to try to speed up frees. > > Technically it's possible to run into a livelock, where you keep > > freeing space and it keeps getting snatched up before you can grab > > it, so you wait forever. So IIRC, there is a point where it just > > gives up on finding the space. However, that won't happen with an > > install, so the free space problem isn't a reason not to use > > softupdates on the root FS. I think the default hasn't been > > changed just because nobody has bothered. > > The easy way to fix this is to insert a new dependency for the > completion of the allocation. Basically, this would put in a > stall barrier that would cause the outstanding I/O to drain before > the new I/O was attempted. All other operations behind the one > that caused the stall would b held off, which would avoid the > starvation deadlock you describe. Most likely, all this would > require some minor code to maintain a running tally of virtual vs. > real free block count. It really isn't a big deal. You're saying you can fix the problem where allocations can sometimes fail on a busy 99% full filesystem, but on such a filesystem, you're just as likely to hit it when it's 100% full. Kirk's solution is simple and has the advantage of not requiring additional dependency tracking for the common case. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Thu Feb 13 5:46:11 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B5AD37B405; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 05:46:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.det2.ameritech.net (mailhost1-sfldmi.sfldmi.ameritech.net [206.141.193.105]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7134243FA3; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 05:46:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dbailey27@ameritech.net) Received: from ameritech.net ([67.38.15.139]) by mailhost.det2.ameritech.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with ESMTP id <20030213134606.SBJW8853.mailhost.det2.ameritech.net@ameritech.net>; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:46:06 -0500 Message-ID: <3E4BA176.9000204@ameritech.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:45:26 -0500 From: northern snowfall User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020518 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Bush Cc: Terry Lambert , Darren Pilgrim , Matthew Emmerton , David Schultz , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <3E4B2433.70301@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B4054.EB948A91@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >>>>Soft updates are disable on / by default because of the chicken >>>>and egg problem of runing tunefs on /. >>>> >>>If that's the problem, then why doesn't sysinstall enable it by default >>>when partitioning for a new install? >>> >>Oliver Stone said it was because there's a conspiracy. >> > >it's the downdraft from the black helicopters > mmmmm.. black helicopters... (insert homer simpson-sounding drool here) > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Thu Feb 13 5:48:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5D337B401; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 05:48:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C1043F93; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 05:48:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0013.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.13] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jJj2-0005gR-00; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 05:48:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4BA1D2.E259308@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 05:46:58 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz Cc: Brooks Davis , Darren Pilgrim , Matthew Emmerton , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <20030212210721.A9481@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20030213051952.GA11572@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3E4B467B.4DCF6D5@mindspring.com> <20030213074449.GA12084@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b70f6dcc777bb869f38f81420dc3e403666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz wrote: > > The easy way to fix this is to insert a new dependency for the > > completion of the allocation. Basically, this would put in a > > stall barrier that would cause the outstanding I/O to drain before > > the new I/O was attempted. All other operations behind the one > > that caused the stall would b held off, which would avoid the > > starvation deadlock you describe. Most likely, all this would > > require some minor code to maintain a running tally of virtual vs. > > real free block count. > > It really isn't a big deal. You're saying you can fix the problem > where allocations can sometimes fail on a busy 99% full > filesystem, but on such a filesystem, you're just as likely to hit > it when it's 100% full. Kirk's solution is simple and has the > advantage of not requiring additional dependency tracking for the > common case. No, actually it should work for "100% full", as well, as long as that "100% full" is "the real disk" vs. "the real disk, after all pending updates have been applied". In other words, if it would have worked with soft updates turned off, then it will work with soft updates turned on. I agree that it's not that big a deal, but if that's truly the current excuse for not having soft updates on for the root FS, this removes all pretense for that excuse. IMO, this is not the reason for them being off on /; the real reason is as I've stated: sysinstall expects the common case to be an initial install, not operations after the initial install, and so does not turn it on by default. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Thu Feb 13 11:14:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 780CB37B401; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-233-57-224.client.attbi.com [12.233.57.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BC5743FA3; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:14:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h1DJE5Dm014593; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:14:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h1DJDujj014592; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:13:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:13:56 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brooks Davis , Darren Pilgrim , Matthew Emmerton , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? Message-ID: <20030213191356.GA14560@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Brooks Davis , Darren Pilgrim , Matthew Emmerton , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG References: <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <20030212210721.A9481@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20030213051952.GA11572@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3E4B467B.4DCF6D5@mindspring.com> <20030213074449.GA12084@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3E4BA1D2.E259308@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E4BA1D2.E259308@mindspring.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Terry Lambert : > David Schultz wrote: > > > The easy way to fix this is to insert a new dependency for the > > > completion of the allocation. Basically, this would put in a > > > stall barrier that would cause the outstanding I/O to drain before > > > the new I/O was attempted. All other operations behind the one > > > that caused the stall would b held off, which would avoid the > > > starvation deadlock you describe. Most likely, all this would > > > require some minor code to maintain a running tally of virtual vs. > > > real free block count. > > > > It really isn't a big deal. You're saying you can fix the problem > > where allocations can sometimes fail on a busy 99% full > > filesystem, but on such a filesystem, you're just as likely to hit > > it when it's 100% full. Kirk's solution is simple and has the > > advantage of not requiring additional dependency tracking for the > > common case. > > No, actually it should work for "100% full", as well, as long as > that "100% full" is "the real disk" vs. "the real disk, after all > pending updates have been applied". > > In other words, if it would have worked with soft updates turned > off, then it will work with soft updates turned on. My point was that a busy disk that is nearly 100% full will probably experience intermitted ``disk full'' errors anyway, so it suffices to simply deal with cases such as 'rm -rf foo && immediately create lots more files', which softupdates does handle in -CURRENT. > IMO, this is not the reason for them being off on /; the real > reason is as I've stated: sysinstall expects the common case to > be an initial install, not operations after the initial install, > and so does not turn it on by default. The original reason was due to the possibility of installworld failing, due to the case described above not being handled particularly well in FreeBSD 4.X. Sysinstall is perfectly happy with creating a root FS with softupdates enabled. If someone wants to bother changing the default for what little difference it might make in installworld/installkernel times, I would support it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Thu Feb 13 12:22:20 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4215137B401; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C710C43FDD; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:22:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B2F41005F; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pantherdragon.org (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1BB7AB6A; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:22:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E4BFE74.2000103@pantherdragon.org> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:22:12 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz Cc: Terry Lambert , Brooks Davis , Matthew Emmerton , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <20030212210721.A9481@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20030213051952.GA11572@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3E4B467B.4DCF6D5@mindspring.com> <20030213074449.GA12084@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3E4BA1D2.E259308@mindspring.com> <20030213191356.GA14560@HAL9000.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <20030213191356.GA14560@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz wrote: > Thus spake Terry Lambert : > >>David Schultz wrote: >> >>>>The easy way to fix this is to insert a new dependency for the >>>>completion of the allocation. Basically, this would put in a >>>>stall barrier that would cause the outstanding I/O to drain before >>>>the new I/O was attempted. All other operations behind the one >>>>that caused the stall would b held off, which would avoid the >>>>starvation deadlock you describe. Most likely, all this would >>>>require some minor code to maintain a running tally of virtual vs. >>>>real free block count. >>> >>>It really isn't a big deal. You're saying you can fix the problem >>>where allocations can sometimes fail on a busy 99% full >>>filesystem, but on such a filesystem, you're just as likely to hit >>>it when it's 100% full. Kirk's solution is simple and has the >>>advantage of not requiring additional dependency tracking for the >>>common case. >> >>No, actually it should work for "100% full", as well, as long as >>that "100% full" is "the real disk" vs. "the real disk, after all >>pending updates have been applied". >> >>In other words, if it would have worked with soft updates turned >>off, then it will work with soft updates turned on. > > > My point was that a busy disk that is nearly 100% full will > probably experience intermitted ``disk full'' errors anyway, > so it suffices to simply deal with cases such as > 'rm -rf foo && immediately create lots more files', which > softupdates does handle in -CURRENT. > > >>IMO, this is not the reason for them being off on /; the real >>reason is as I've stated: sysinstall expects the common case to >>be an initial install, not operations after the initial install, >>and so does not turn it on by default. > > > The original reason was due to the possibility of installworld > failing, due to the case described above not being handled > particularly well in FreeBSD 4.X. Sysinstall is perfectly happy > with creating a root FS with softupdates enabled. If someone > wants to bother changing the default for what little difference it > might make in installworld/installkernel times, I would support it. For what its worth, I think all that's needed is to change line 339 in usr.sbin/sysinstall/label.c: --- label.c Mon Dec 30 21:19:15 2002 +++ label.c.new Thu Feb 13 11:50:44 2003 @@ -336,7 +336,7 @@ strcpy(pi->newfs_data.newfs_ufs.user_options, ""); pi->newfs_data.newfs_ufs.acls = FALSE; pi->newfs_data.newfs_ufs.multilabel = FALSE; - pi->newfs_data.newfs_ufs.softupdates = strcmp(mpoint, "/"); + pi->newfs_data.newfs_ufs.softupdates = TRUE; pi->newfs_data.newfs_ufs.ufs2 = FALSE; return pi; The patch is against the 5.0-R tagged version, but it should still apply to the current version. I think softupdates is still (viewed as) riskier than synchronous writes, at least for large numbers of writes (like installworld) to a filesystem of limited size, so someone is going to inevitably ask if FreeBSD should be loading the bullets as well. Personally, if it's a matter of choosing overall safety or a performance gain for something you really shouldn't be doing to a live machine anyway, I'll take the safe route and option the performance gain. P.S., thanks everyone for the discussion, it was enlightening. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Thu Feb 13 13:11:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A18E37B401; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:11:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-233-57-224.client.attbi.com [12.233.57.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D0BB43F85; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:11:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h1DLBSDm015084; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:11:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h1DLBNPL015083; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:11:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:11:23 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: Terry Lambert , Brooks Davis , Matthew Emmerton , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? Message-ID: <20030213211123.GA15047@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Darren Pilgrim , Terry Lambert , Brooks Davis , Matthew Emmerton , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG References: <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <20030212210721.A9481@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20030213051952.GA11572@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3E4B467B.4DCF6D5@mindspring.com> <20030213074449.GA12084@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3E4BA1D2.E259308@mindspring.com> <20030213191356.GA14560@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3E4BFE74.2000103@pantherdragon.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E4BFE74.2000103@pantherdragon.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Darren Pilgrim : > David Schultz wrote: > >Thus spake Terry Lambert : > >>IMO, this is not the reason for them being off on /; the real > >>reason is as I've stated: sysinstall expects the common case to > >>be an initial install, not operations after the initial install, > >>and so does not turn it on by default. > > > > > >The original reason was due to the possibility of installworld > >failing, due to the case described above not being handled > >particularly well in FreeBSD 4.X. Sysinstall is perfectly happy > >with creating a root FS with softupdates enabled. If someone > >wants to bother changing the default for what little difference it > >might make in installworld/installkernel times, I would support it. > > For what its worth, I think all that's needed is to change line 339 in > usr.sbin/sysinstall/label.c: ... > I think softupdates is still (viewed as) riskier than synchronous > writes, at least for large numbers of writes (like installworld) to a > filesystem of limited size, so someone is going to inevitably ask if > FreeBSD should be loading the bullets as well. Personally, if it's a > matter of choosing overall safety or a performance gain for something > you really shouldn't be doing to a live machine anyway, I'll take the > safe route and option the performance gain. I've heard that argument, and while I think it has *some* validity in general, I don't buy it for installworld/installkernel in particular. Softupdates guarantees metadata consistency (modulo hardware issues that have been discussed on this list before), but it can reorder writes and delay the amount of time it takes your data to hit the disk. For an installworld, this means that the window during which you have a partially installed world is slightly larger, but installworld takes a while, so the window is already pretty darn big. The whole rationale for doing installworld/installkernel in a particular sequence is that with any luck, you can boot to single-user mode after something goes wrong and finish the job (or revert to the old kernel.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Thu Feb 13 15:53:22 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5A1437B401; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D213E43F93; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:53:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0247.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.247] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jTAE-0003Vv-00; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:53:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4C2F94.8964A74D@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:51:48 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz Cc: Brooks Davis , Darren Pilgrim , Matthew Emmerton , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <20030212225631.GA10375@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <20030212210721.A9481@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20030213051952.GA11572@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3E4B467B.4DCF6D5@mindspring.com> <20030213074449.GA12084@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3E4BA1D2.E259308@mindspring.com> <20030213191356.GA14560@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e6e963775cab5cb2bcc6abe6c50ab06e2601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz wrote: > Thus spake Terry Lambert : > > In other words, if it would have worked with soft updates turned > > off, then it will work with soft updates turned on. > > My point was that a busy disk that is nearly 100% full will > probably experience intermitted ``disk full'' errors anyway, > so it suffices to simply deal with cases such as > 'rm -rf foo && immediately create lots more files', which > softupdates does handle in -CURRENT. I think the problem that was specifically mentioned, with regard to / (after a lot of assumptions) was a file replacement which had to delete an old file and make room for a new one. I do this all the time, by replacing the kernel and all modules, and keeping "one behind", e.g. rm x.old; mv x x.old; cp blah x. This fails on a soft updates system because the deletion is not actually done to the point of the space having been recovered, before the copies are started. > > IMO, this is not the reason for them being off on /; the real > > reason is as I've stated: sysinstall expects the common case to > > be an initial install, not operations after the initial install, > > and so does not turn it on by default. > > The original reason was due to the possibility of installworld > failing, due to the case described above not being handled > particularly well in FreeBSD 4.X. Sysinstall is perfectly happy > with creating a root FS with softupdates enabled. If someone > wants to bother changing the default for what little difference it > might make in installworld/installkernel times, I would support it. Eh. I don't think it's that useful, but sysinstall in any mode other than "create the FS in the first place/new install" is not really going to have a lot of opportunity to do that bit flip. The most common way I use sysinstall is to NFS mount a CDROM image off some machine, get the sysinstall image that matches the CDROM image, and copy it to /tmp (this is a bitch; the sysinstall image should be made available by itself on distribution CDROMs; as it is, you have to vnconfig, copy a file off it, and vnconfig again, and copy a file off that, to get the sysinstall program). It's about the only way you can upgrade a rackmount machine with a serial console and no floppy or CDROM drive on it (you need a non-serial console to use the Intel PXE crap to netboot). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Thu Feb 13 16: 1:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E4EB37B401; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:01:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D005A43F85; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:01:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0247.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.247] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jTIU-0004yH-00; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:01:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4C3195.FAB92EEA@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:00:21 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz Cc: Darren Pilgrim , Brooks Davis , Matthew Emmerton , Daxbert , Bill Moran , Heinrich Rebehn , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <005801c2d2eb$aa5fae60$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <3E4ADDDE.5040208@pantherdragon.org> <3E4B138F.26E32E75@mindspring.com> <20030212210721.A9481@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <20030213051952.GA11572@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3E4B467B.4DCF6D5@mindspring.com> <20030213074449.GA12084@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3E4BA1D2.E259308@mindspring.com> <20030213191356.GA14560@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <3E4BFE74.2000103@pantherdragon.org> <20030213211123.GA15047@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e6e963775cab5cb297c3d1cb5f9747c3a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz wrote: > > I think softupdates is still (viewed as) riskier than synchronous > > writes, at least for large numbers of writes (like installworld) to a NB: An initial system install is done with async mounts. You can't use async mounts if you use soft updates, because the dependencies for already outstanding pending writes won't be there after a "mount -u". Same is true of sync mounts, but install doesn't use that, or try to use "mount -u". > I've heard that argument, and while I think it has *some* validity > in general, I don't buy it for installworld/installkernel in > particular. Softupdates guarantees metadata consistency (modulo > hardware issues that have been discussed on this list before), but > it can reorder writes and delay the amount of time it takes your > data to hit the disk. For an installworld, this means that the > window during which you have a partially installed world is > slightly larger, but installworld takes a while, so the window is > already pretty darn big. The whole rationale for doing > installworld/installkernel in a particular sequence is that with > any luck, you can boot to single-user mode after something goes > wrong and finish the job (or revert to the old kernel.) Heh. This is the "Lightning is less likely to hit me if I play golf very fast, even though I'm doing it in a thunderstorm" argument. It's based on a false understanding of statistics, and it's the same argument Linux FS people used to use, back before they had an FS that ordered metadata writes, to justify not ordering metadata writes (e.g. "use async, the failure window is smaller"). And we all know that's really bogus. 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Fri Feb 14 7:59:41 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E35237B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 07:59:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sluis.cs.vu.nl (sluis.cs.vu.nl [130.37.30.210]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2435243FDD for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 07:59:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from philip@cs.vu.nl) Received: from centaur.cs.vu.nl (centaur.cs.vu.nl [130.37.30.211]) by sluis.cs.vu.nl with esmtp (Smail #86) id m18jiFV-000OXKC; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:59 +0100 Received: from cs.vu.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by centaur.cs.vu.nl with esmtp (Smail #86) id m18jiFU-001cz2C; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:59 +0100 Message-Id: To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why is there no JFS? References: <3E4A5B77.5080103@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A863E.2030801@potentialtech.com> <3E4A8EF5.1070308@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4A9712.8030609@potentialtech.com> <3E4AA331.5040701@ant.uni-bremen.de> <3E4AA734.5040102@potentialtech.com> <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com> <15946.52429.222082.74590@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:59:36 +0100 From: Philip Homburg Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In your letter dated Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:38:05 -0600 you wrote: >In <045401c2d2db$f9d45c30$0a0aa8c0@dweebsoft.com>, Daxbert soft.com> typed: >> Is anybody currently working on or does there exist >> a JFS for FreeBSD? > >To the best of my knowledge, there is no JFS, and nobody is working on >one. I'm working on one. Don't expect results soon. >> Is there not a JFS for FreeBSD becuase, Softupdates >> do the job just fine and nobody has the >> time or interest to work on this? > >Softupdates with a background fsck solve the problem of wanting to >come back up quickly after a crash, which is the most common reason >people ask for a JFS. The main feature that I like from the system I'm working on is that (write) system calls can be made atomic. If you write 1MB and crash, either the entire write will be recovered, or you won't see any effects of the write. It is possible to improve on softupdates in the area of block allocation and write scheduling, but I'm not sure it is worth the trouble. I'd like to be able to group a collection of related write system calls in a transaction, but I'm not sure what the (system call) interface should look like. Philip Homburg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Fri Feb 14 15:54:19 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE1CF37B401; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-52.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4D143FA3; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:54:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D4F679DA; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:54:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C6D65107F; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:54:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:54:13 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Kris Kennaway Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, fs@FreeBSD.ORG, kirk@mckusick.com, iedowse@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: INVARIANTS-related fs panic on alpha Message-ID: <20030214235413.GA4079@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20030125081234.GA11722@rot13.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030125081234.GA11722@rot13.obsecurity.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 25, 2003 at 12:12:34AM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > One of the alpha package clients panicked with this. It was under > very high load at the time (25 simultaneous package builds): >=20 > fatal kernel trap: >=20 > trap entry =3D 0x2 (memory management fault) > faulting va =3D 0xdeadc0dedeadc0e6 > type =3D access violation > cause =3D store instruction > pc =3D 0xfffffc000053453c > ra =3D 0xfffffc000053b2a8 > sp =3D 0xfffffe001da15b30 > curthread =3D 0xfffffc003e33b930 > pid =3D 3, comm =3D g_up >=20 > Stopped at add_to_worklist+0xac: stq a0,0x8(t0) <0xdeadc0dedea= dc0e6> > db> trace > add_to_worklist() at add_to_worklist+0xac > handle_written_inodeblock() at handle_written_inodeblock+0x5e8 > softdep_disk_write_complete() at softdep_disk_write_complete+0xac > bufdone() at bufdone+0x19c > bufdonebio() at bufdonebio+0x1c > biodone() at biodone+0x28 > g_dev_done() at g_dev_done+0xd8 > biodone() at biodone+0x28 > g_io_schedule_up() at g_io_schedule_up+0x4c > g_up_procbody() at g_up_procbody+0x9c > fork_exit() at fork_exit+0x100 > exception_return() at exception_return > --- root of call graph --- > db> I'm still getting this (on i386 and alpha). I believe it is related to a filesystem becoming full. Can someone please investigate? Kris --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+TYGlWry0BWjoQKURAlUxAKD3rqr6/26HEt/6wTODI0I2mBAP2QCg/Zrb QOX3oKc5fDuFzVTvOtA0s2Y= =R0GM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Fri Feb 14 16:53:11 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32FC37B401; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:53:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from beastie.mckusick.com (beastie.mckusick.com [209.31.233.184]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 149EB43FBD; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:53:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mckusick@beastie.mckusick.com) Received: from beastie.mckusick.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beastie.mckusick.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h1F0r7FL044055; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:53:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mckusick@beastie.mckusick.com) Message-Id: <200302150053.h1F0r7FL044055@beastie.mckusick.com> To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: INVARIANTS-related fs panic on alpha Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, fs@FreeBSD.ORG, iedowse@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:54:13 PST." <20030214235413.GA4079@rot13.obsecurity.org> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:53:07 -0800 From: Kirk McKusick Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have tried running my test machine out of filesystem space (repeatedly) and have not been able to get this panic. I will keep running that test in the hopes that it will show up. In the meantime, if you can come up with an example that reliably triggers it, that would be most helpful. Kirk McKusick =-=-=-=-=-= Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:54:13 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Kris Kennaway Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, fs@FreeBSD.ORG, kirk@mckusick.com, iedowse@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: INVARIANTS-related fs panic on alpha On Sat, Jan 25, 2003 at 12:12:34AM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > One of the alpha package clients panicked with this. It was under > very high load at the time (25 simultaneous package builds): >=20 > fatal kernel trap: >=20 > trap entry =3D 0x2 (memory management fault) > faulting va =3D 0xdeadc0dedeadc0e6 > type =3D access violation > cause =3D store instruction > pc =3D 0xfffffc000053453c > ra =3D 0xfffffc000053b2a8 > sp =3D 0xfffffe001da15b30 > curthread =3D 0xfffffc003e33b930 > pid =3D 3, comm =3D g_up >=20 > Stopped at add_to_worklist+0xac: stq a0,0x8(t0) <0xdeadc0dedea= dc0e6> > db> trace > add_to_worklist() at add_to_worklist+0xac > handle_written_inodeblock() at handle_written_inodeblock+0x5e8 > softdep_disk_write_complete() at softdep_disk_write_complete+0xac > bufdone() at bufdone+0x19c > bufdonebio() at bufdonebio+0x1c > biodone() at biodone+0x28 > g_dev_done() at g_dev_done+0xd8 > biodone() at biodone+0x28 > g_io_schedule_up() at g_io_schedule_up+0x4c > g_up_procbody() at g_up_procbody+0x9c > fork_exit() at fork_exit+0x100 > exception_return() at exception_return > --- root of call graph --- > db> I'm still getting this (on i386 and alpha). I believe it is related to a filesystem becoming full. Can someone please investigate? Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Fri Feb 14 18:51:23 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA6B37B401; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:51:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-52.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F410843FA3; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:51:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE7E679DC; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0BF7F1081; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:51:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:51:19 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Kirk McKusick Cc: Kris Kennaway , current@FreeBSD.ORG, fs@FreeBSD.ORG, iedowse@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: INVARIANTS-related fs panic on alpha Message-ID: <20030215025118.GA5172@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20030214235413.GA4079@rot13.obsecurity.org> <200302150053.h1F0r7FL044055@beastie.mckusick.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FL5UXtIhxfXey3p5" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200302150053.h1F0r7FL044055@beastie.mckusick.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --FL5UXtIhxfXey3p5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 04:53:07PM -0800, Kirk McKusick wrote: > I have tried running my test machine out of filesystem space > (repeatedly) and have not been able to get this panic. I will > keep running that test in the hopes that it will show up. In > the meantime, if you can come up with an example that reliably > triggers it, that would be most helpful. Hmm. The machines that have panicked are likely to have been under extreme disk load at the time they ran out of space (e.g. extracting several dozen large tarballs simultaneously) [1]. I'll have to see if I can trigger this. Kris [1] Due to the stupidity of the bento package build scheduler and various other contributing factors. --FL5UXtIhxfXey3p5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+TasmWry0BWjoQKURAtNiAKC9YIWbrR04cLEdBmmwLLcmSIpFPACeNYUZ uB2sjZ6LJsPwcS4tJ4IvV14= =5iru -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FL5UXtIhxfXey3p5-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message