From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 29 14:22:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7624C16A4FD for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C481C43D31 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:22:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AxZJw-000AXz-F6 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:22:00 +0000 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i1TMM0Vi047248 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:22:00 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.10/8.12.6/Submit) id i1TMLx13047247 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:21:59 GMT Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:21:59 +0000 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040229222159.GA47191@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1AxZJw-000AXz-F6*fQKmewwv9aE* Subject: Daemon's Advocate article X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:22:03 -0000 http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200402/dadvocate.html I found the article very interesting. What do you all think? What is being done to keep BSD from ending up where Greg says it might be going - suitable only for developers? I would think that with more people and ports being added every day, we won't find ourselves in that situation. However, I can see what he is talking about. NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 29 23:26:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 963C616A4CE for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:26:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gwdu60.gwdg.de (gwdu60.gwdg.de [134.76.8.60]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6ABE43D3F for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:26:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kheuer2@gwdg.de) Received: from gwdu60.gwdg.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gwdu60.gwdg.de (8.12.9p2/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i217P2G3088143; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:25:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from kheuer2@gwdg.de) Received: from localhost (kheuer2@localhost)i217P24Q088140; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:25:02 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu60.gwdg.de: kheuer2 owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:25:02 +0100 (CET) From: Konrad Heuer To: Jonathon McKitrick In-Reply-To: <20040229222159.GA47191@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: <20040301080337.Q67649@gwdu60.gwdg.de> References: <20040229222159.GA47191@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 07:26:49 -0000 On Sun, 29 Feb 2004, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200402/dadvocate.html > > I found the article very interesting. > > What do you all think? What is being done to keep BSD from ending up where > Greg says it might be going - suitable only for developers? > > I would think that with more people and ports being added every day, we > won't find ourselves in that situation. However, I can see what he is > talking about. > > NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. I see the problem too. For example, I run a couple of FreeBSD driven servers in our computer center. They do their job very well, but the number of (SuSE and RedHat) Linux boxes is substantially higher. Why? I think there are some reasons at least: * Linux is more popular. I try to tell people that FreeBSD is great whenever there is a chance to do so, but they do hesitate since they all know (at less) a handful of people using Linux happily. * Installation and maintenance of SuSE or RedHat Linux is more convenient or is assumed to be so. People hardly believe the patching and updating an operating system by source code is easy and painless. Nevertheless, it is, I know, but how to get other people to try it? * People are lazy. For example, SuSE offers low-charge maintenance contracts. As long as this fits people's needs, noone wants to fix security holes by him/-herself. I'm talking about people who work in a computer center. I don't talk of newbies. I'm talking of people who once said "hey, open source is great", but now they use commercial Linux systems being lightyears away from Linux as it was some years ago. Only the very very few ones regretting that Linux has gone this way and really liking open source will give FreeBSD a chance. I think most people don't run operating systems because they like them so much (I do with FreeBSD) but because they need a task to be done. So we should ask what we can do here? Best regards Konrad Heuer (kheuer2@gwdg.de) ____ ___ _______ GWDG / __/______ ___ / _ )/ __/ _ \ Am Fassberg / _// __/ -_) -_) _ |\ \/ // / 37077 Goettingen /_/ /_/ \__/\__/____/___/____/ Germany From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 29 23:38:30 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C6A416A4CE for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-67-117-158-73.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [67.117.158.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72FCF43D1F for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:38:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by snafu.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0A34E9EEF0; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snafu.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB209B148 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:38:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:38:09 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Hoskins To: advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040301080337.Q67649@gwdu60.gwdg.de> Message-ID: <20040229233532.D44668@snafu.adept.org> References: <20040229222159.GA47191@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20040301080337.Q67649@gwdu60.gwdg.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 07:38:30 -0000 On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Konrad Heuer wrote: > Only the very very few ones regretting that Linux has gone this way and > really liking open source will give FreeBSD a chance. i regret where linux has gone, at least distros like RH. but you are correct, a lot of datacenters are filled with RH instead of *BSD. some of it's application support, but with emulation as it is, a lot of it is just hype. i love the simplicity (buildworld isn't hard) of FreeBSD and the control that it gives you. it is stable, fast, etc... but i guess we get back to the old "VHS vs. Betamax" debate. people often choose inferior technology with their pocketbooks -- something very frustrating as an engineer. -m From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 08:51:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5148416A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:51:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from vsmtp4.tin.it (unknown [212.216.176.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90BB43D3F for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:51:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from victorvittorivonwiktow@interfree.it) Received: from workstation (82.48.219.166) by vsmtp4.tin.it (7.0.019) id 402CD2F0003556C4 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:51:30 +0100 Message-ID: <001101c3ffad$75a50540$7a30fea9@workstation> From: ".VWV." To: References: <20040229222159.GA47191@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20040301080337.Q67649@gwdu60.gwdg.de> <20040229233532.D44668@snafu.adept.org> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:43:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: Re: Re: Daemon's Advocate article X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 16:51:32 -0000 ---- Original Message ---- From: "Mike Hoskins" To: Sent: Monday, 01 March, 2004 08:38 Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article >On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Konrad Heuer wrote: >> Only the very very few ones regretting that Linux has gone this way and >> really liking open source will give FreeBSD a chance. > > i regret where linux has gone, at least distros like RH. but you are > correct, a lot of datacenters are filled with RH instead of *BSD. some of > it's application support, but with emulation as it is, a lot of it is just > hype. i love the simplicity (buildworld isn't hard) of FreeBSD and the > control that it gives you. it is stable, fast, etc... but i guess we get > back to the old "VHS vs. Betamax" debate. people often choose inferior > technology with their pocketbooks -- something very frustrating as an > engineer. > > -m What I miss, as an end user, is only a VMWare release making FreeBSD the hosting o.s. .VWV. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 11:12:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FD8516A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7E643D1F for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:12:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:3017) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AxspC-00071L-64; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 11:11:34 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <15HGJRFJ>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:03:04 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id 15H180D2; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:01:51 -0800 From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:09:33 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <20040229222159.GA47191@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20040229222159.GA47191@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403011109.33238.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1AxspC-00071L-64*O96qjOT7486* cc: Jonathon McKitrick Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 19:12:23 -0000 On Sunday 29 February 2004 02:21 pm, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200402/dadvocate.html > > I found the article very interesting. > > What do you all think? What is being done to keep BSD from ending up > where Greg says it might be going - suitable only for developers? What is being done? Nothing. I get the impression that no one "in charge" is the slightest bit concerned about the FreeBSD user. This is most notable on the desktop side, but it extends to any user. There's this attitude that if you want something in FreeBSD, you must do it yourself. But why should it be any other way? FreeBSD developers are all volunteers. They work on what they do because that's what they want to do. And since they're all primarily kernel and system software people, we end up with a great OS, but a rather lackluster environment. The lack of commercialization doesn't help either. I think this is the only long term advantage Linux has over the BSDs. Who pays people to work on the boring and dreary stuff? Who pays for that new piece of hardware so a driver can be written sometime before it becomes obsolete? (I think this situation will turn around as FreeBSD gains users and becomes noticed by hardware vendors, just like what happened to Linux about four years ago). I'm a desktop user. I have noticed more than once some active disdain towards the desktop by FreeBSD developers. Why is this? Did I miss the sign out front saying "servers only"? You don't have to be a dumb-downed system like Lindows to be suitable for the desktop. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 11:41:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9FC16A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:41:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41108.mail.yahoo.com (web41108.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6017843D1D for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:41:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scott@sremick.net) Message-ID: <20040301194121.97837.qmail@web41108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [199.172.45.60] by web41108.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 11:41:21 PST X-RocketYMMF: siremick Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:41:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott I. Remick" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200403011109.33238.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: scott@sremick.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 19:41:21 -0000 --- Johnson David wrote: > I'm a desktop user. I have noticed more than once some active disdain > towards the desktop by FreeBSD developers. Why is this? Did I miss the > sign out front saying "servers only"? You don't have to be a > dumb-downed system like Lindows to be suitable for the desktop. I have to concur. For some reason, there seems to be a common attitude that if you use FreeBSD to any extent, you must be a C++ programmer with the ability to write drivers and patch applications. While I fully respect the fact that this is a volunteer effort, the above can come off as rather harsh and deterring for a new user. We FreeBSD users often scold the Linux community for their attitude problems... why must we replace one bad attitude with another in our own community? The people who volunteer their free time for the good of the FreeBSD community can do a lot of things in their sleep which are beyond the abilities of the common desktop user. Perhaps some have some free time, perhaps others find a request simple enough that they can balance their time to handle something that would help someone else. But to make a polite request and get back "Why don't you port it yourself if you want it?" or "patch/driver submissions welcome" conveys an impression that FreeBSD is for developers only... if you can't code, your input isn't desired. I know it's all volunteer, and I volunteer my time and efforts in the ways I can despite not being a C++ coder. Nor have I graduated to the point where I can port applications (although I will be willing to attempt it once I can have an additional test PC environment where I can risk experimenting with apps not in the ports tree). But I field a lot of new-user questions, have gotten several people up and going who turn to me first with questions, I run an advocacy/news/help site, and so on. We all help as we can. I'm sorry to see Greg leave. I own his book and found it very useful. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 12:40:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA34C16A4D0 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from out011.verizon.net (out011pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C0DE43D2F for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:40:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@tasonline.com) Received: from [192.168.1.47] ([141.157.44.31]) by out011.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040301204037.HPSV18566.out011.verizon.net@[192.168.1.47]> for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:40:37 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Matt Jarjoura Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:40:42 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [141.157.44.31] at Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:40:37 -0600 Subject: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 20:40:38 -0000 Hello, Again, repeating on a message from an earlier email I sent out on the list... if RedHat and SUSE are good enough that ISPs are using them, instead of saying how silly ISPs are to turn their heads away from FreeBSD, we NEED to be looking at what exactly RedHat & SUSE have that FreeBSD doesn't. I doubt it's the cushy corporate backing, although Novel will certainly have the inroads necessary to see a lot of old Unix machines replaced with their SUSE/Novel boxes. A) RedHat and SUSE both have GUI installers. -- Honestly, how important is it that FreeBSD remain a TUI-only menu based installation-?? Sure it's simple, but screen-shots of it sure don't appear appetizing to ISPs in a 2 week window. B) RH/SUSE both have great upgrade engines. -- I forget the command line program in FreeBSD that allows you merge old settings w/ the new settings. C) The FreeBSD Foundation -- Great job w/ releasing Java, but I am sure they can pull a lot more strings to start hiring UI Research Developers and release their findings under a similar BSD license. My last thought here... I am not saying FreeBSD should be focused on Desktop users, but server admins are starting to get a lot more "desktop-like" features from Mac OS X Server, Win 2k3, even RH and SUSE. Bandwidth for running X11 over SSH isn't a problem like it used to be. Just some stuff to keep open for discussion. -Matt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 13:08:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38E8A16A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:08:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41109.mail.yahoo.com (web41109.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1748443D1D for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:08:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scott@sremick.net) Message-ID: <20040301210843.64256.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [199.172.45.60] by web41109.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 13:08:43 PST X-RocketYMMF: siremick Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:08:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott I. Remick" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: scott@sremick.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:08:43 -0000 --- Matt Jarjoura wrote: > A) RedHat and SUSE both have GUI installers. -- Honestly, how > important is it that FreeBSD remain a TUI-only menu based > installation-?? Sure it's simple, but screen-shots of it sure don't > appear appetizing to ISPs in a 2 week window. Actually, it's important for 3 reasons: 1) Compatibility. You can't even depend on 640x480 working on every piece of hardware you might wish to install FreeBSD on. Some embedded applications can't do any graphics. 2) Speed. I'm still rather green w/ FreeBSD compared to many, but I can fly through the FreeBSD setup in just a few mins. 3) Old cruft. Apparently a lot of people are too scared of the whole ncurses/sysinstall beast to dare revamping it. It works, and it's tried-and-tested. It's easier and safer to make minor modifications to support new versions than to overhaul it. I wouldn't mind a GUI option, if there were enough people to maintain it, but it'd need to only be an option (leaving the current ncurses install or some other equivalently-easy text-based install for the die-hards). And then you'd have to make sure there were people around enough to support 2 separate install scripts (unless a text-based one could be automatically generated from the GUI one somehow, using templates). > B) RH/SUSE both have great upgrade engines. -- I forget the command > line program in FreeBSD that allows you merge old settings w/ the new > settings. Maybe you mean mergemaster? Mergemaster is very scary... an overhaul of that part of the process would solve 80% of what makes updating FreeBSD an unpleasant experience for the enduser. The rest is pretty painless, really, once you get used to it. Not to say the other parts couldn't be made easier for the normal desktop user... but mergemaster isn't even friendly for the technically-savvy. :) > C) The FreeBSD Foundation -- Great job w/ releasing Java, but I am sure > they can pull a lot more strings to start hiring UI Research Developers > and release their findings under a similar BSD license. Agreed... the JVM is a sore point too. Although I have 1.4 working, there are a lot of annoying hoops to jump through to make it happen. I wouldn't want to wish it on my less-technical (yet FreeBSD-interested) friends. Admittedly, it's Sun's fault more than it's FreeBSD's. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 13:28:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 684F916A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from heceta.db.net (heceta.db.net [66.11.169.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F1043D2D for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:28:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from db@db.net) Received: from db by heceta.db.net with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.8) id 1Axuxv-000N8N-Sf; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 16:28:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:28:43 -0500 From: Diane Bruce To: "Scott I. Remick" Message-ID: <20040301212843.GB88805@heceta.db.net> References: <20040301210843.64256.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040301210843.64256.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:28:55 -0000 On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 01:08:43PM -0800, Scott I. Remick wrote: > > --- Matt Jarjoura wrote: > > > A) RedHat and SUSE both have GUI installers. -- Honestly, how ...> > Actually, it's important for 3 reasons: > > 1) Compatibility. You can't even depend on 640x480 working on every piece of Naw, give them the choice up front and everyone is happy. Yes, sometimes the installer can't make the video card work in graphics, sometimes you want to use a serial port. (you are loading a server for example.) > 2) Speed. I'm still rather green w/ FreeBSD compared to many, but I can fly > through the FreeBSD setup in just a few mins. At least get rid of the confusion in the setup. Its confused me at times, and I can assure you, I aint no newbie. - Diane From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 13:31:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC3216A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:31:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19BB643D31 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:31:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:1607) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Axv0R-0006V9-3S; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 13:31:19 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <15HGJT43>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:22:57 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id 15H19D34; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:21:43 -0800 From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, scott@sremick.net Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:29:25 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <20040301210843.64256.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040301210843.64256.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403011329.25897.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1Axv0R-0006V9-3S*KktgYtcmQ7.* Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:31:47 -0000 On Monday 01 March 2004 01:08 pm, Scott I. Remick wrote: > 3) Old cruft. Apparently a lot of people are too scared of the whole > ncurses/sysinstall beast to dare revamping it. It works, and it's > tried-and-tested. It's easier and safer to make minor modifications > to support new versions than to overhaul it. > > I wouldn't mind a GUI option, if there were enough people to maintain > it, but it'd need to only be an option (leaving the current ncurses > install or some other equivalently-easy text-based install for the > die-hards). And then you'd have to make sure there were people around > enough to support 2 separate install scripts (unless a text-based one > could be automatically generated from the GUI one somehow, using > templates). The sysinstall implementation started out as a quick-n-dirty hack, but unfortunately it lived on. I've been pondering the solution to this for a few months now. Frankly I don't see the absolute need for a GUI installer, but it's certainly a nice thing to have. But a text mode installer is essential. So the first step is to get a well designed text mode installer. The libh project (sysinstall replacement) is dead. I've have some ideas on this topic, but it's a bit more than I can do on my own. However, the only way stuff gets done in FreeBSD is for someone to get an itch and do it, so I'll probably end up doing something soon. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 13:38:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C69A16A547 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:38:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte244.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.244.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5322D43D46 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:38:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from question+advocacy@closedsrc.org) Received: by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 40F614505B; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:37:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:37:39 -0800 From: Linh Pham To: Matt Jarjoura Message-ID: <20040301213738.GA54612@q.internal.closedsrc.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="CE+1k2dSO48ffgeK" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: closedsrc.org Mail-Copies-To: poster X-PGP-Key: http://closedsrc.org/~question/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:38:27 -0000 --CE+1k2dSO48ffgeK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2004-03-01 15:40 -0500, Matt Jarjoura wrote: # Again, repeating on a message from an earlier email I sent out on the=20 # list... if RedHat and SUSE are good enough that ISPs are using them,=20 # instead of saying how silly ISPs are to turn their heads away from=20 # FreeBSD, we NEED to be looking at what exactly RedHat & SUSE have that=20 # FreeBSD doesn't. I doubt it's the cushy corporate backing, although=20 # Novel will certainly have the inroads necessary to see a lot of old=20 # Unix machines replaced with their SUSE/Novel boxes. I could be wrong in this assumption, but I think a lot of people will choose RedHat or SUSE over FreeBSD is in part of the support that they get from those two vendors, and probably have the mentality that FreeBSD's hardware support isn't up to snuff compared to Linux. It could also be supply and demand kind of thing where customers will recognize RedHat and SUSE, along with Linux... those same people may not have heard or really know about FreeBSD. --=20 Linh Pham question+advocacy@closedsrc.org Webmaster and FreeBSD Geek http://closedsrc.org Apprentice Manager Editor and Writer http://www.daemonnews.org Courage: The things I do for love | And So Western Civilization Crumbles --CE+1k2dSO48ffgeK Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAQ60iwhofDeWkDMIRAljoAJ95e3RgE+rulVhMWO4IoamZAtHo9wCdFsfO jykB1ynxlqqfoEneZXLanIk= =C/A1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --CE+1k2dSO48ffgeK-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 13:46:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC4EF16A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:46:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from web60401.mail.yahoo.com (web60401.mail.yahoo.com [216.109.118.184]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8534743D1F for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:46:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from twigles@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040301214610.43290.qmail@web60401.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.5.51.136] by web60401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 13:46:10 PST Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:46:10 -0800 (PST) From: twig les To: Linh Pham , Matt Jarjoura In-Reply-To: <20040301213738.GA54612@q.internal.closedsrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:46:14 -0000 > I could be wrong in this assumption, but I think a lot of > people will > choose RedHat or SUSE over FreeBSD is in part of the support > that they > get from those two vendors, Absolutely my experience. We are a Solaris/Cisco shop primarily bc of the contracts. As a big company we have grand poobah contracts with both companies that will land us a replacement server/router/switch within a day. That is a HUGE deal. Bigger than Sun hardware being better than i386, bigger than performance, bigger than ease-of-use, etc.. ===== ----------------------------------------------------------- With a few exceptions, secrecy is deeply incompatible with democracy and with science. --Carl Sagan ----------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 13:59:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 387C016A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:59:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5EC643D31 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:59:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfak@telus.net) Received: from diamond ([206.116.24.146]) by priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.00.05.02 201-2115-109-103-20031105) with SMTP id <20040301215957.KINQ22284.priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net@diamond>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:59:57 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c3ffd8$88fb8670$9c01a8c0@diamond> From: "Peter Kieser" To: "Matt Jarjoura" References: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:59:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2082 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2082 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:59:58 -0000 My thoughts.. (on this topic that's been brought up so many times) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Jarjoura" To: Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 12:40 PM Subject: my thoughts on FreeBSD > > A) RedHat and SUSE both have GUI installers. -- Honestly, how important > is it that FreeBSD remain a TUI-only menu based installation-?? Sure it's > simple, but screen-shots of it sure don't appear appetizing to ISPs in a 2 > week window. Having a GUI installer for FreeBSD would get rid of the simplicity of the FreeBSD /stand/sysinstall that we have gotten used to. I for one, *love* FreeBSD's installation program. I can pratically do it in my sleep, and I wish all Operating Systems had a installer that is easy to use as FreeBSDs. Also, GUI installers do _not_ work with all hardware, and generally make an installation take longer then neccessary. I can install a FreeBSD system in <5 minutes on high-end hardware, why would I want this to take longer? Also, I can do the installation pratically in my sleep. While it may be "difficult" the first time around, after that you're pratically hooked. /stand/sysinstall reminds me of NetWare 3.12/4.11 installation, which I loved and still remember. ;-) The ISP is not going to be looking for eye candy, they are looking for SUPPORT. How well the product is supported in the mark, and how well it works. Not because of some eye candy, high performance is necessary when you are an ISP. So why do you think large ISPs use it? Look at Yahoo. > > My last thought here... > > I am not saying FreeBSD should be focused on Desktop users, but server > admins are starting to get a lot more "desktop-like" features from Mac OS > X Server, Win 2k3, even RH and SUSE. Bandwidth for running X11 over SSH > isn't a problem like it used to be. > > Just some stuff to keep open for discussion. > FreeBSD has *always* been a more server-oriented distribution, and it will continue to be so. I want to be able to run commands on the console, and not go through some GUI based utility that takes me twice as long to figure out what I'm doing. These types of tools should be optional, and not included in the base distribution. FreeBSD's goal has always been to keep it simplistic, and have the end-user add what they want, and that is what makes FreeBSD appealing to the majority of it's user base. I for one do not want to have to deal with X11 for a server. Waste of memory, waste of disk space, and waste of time. FreeBSD is lean, and mean. It may not be the most "leanest" of the *BSD's, but add a XFree86 interface and this is just going to make the whole thing more bloated. Let the person install this bloat if they want, do NOT include it by default. I like FreeBSD because it's simplistic, doesn't include "everything and the kitchen sink", works for my needs, and does not include a GUI by default in the installation, and does not require me to hand pick through the configuration to install the base system, and ONLY the base system. It lets me customize the system after it's been installed, not during the configuration. I can still realistically install FreeBSD over the internet. I started using FreeBSD when I was 12 (so i've been using it for about 5 years), and have enjoyed it immensely. Do not change what's proven to attract it's user base. This discussion has been brought up time and time again, and we've always decided to stick with the current way of doing things. -- Peter Kieser pfak@telus.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 14:04:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6F416A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:04:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483F843D39 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:04:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfak@telus.net) Received: from diamond ([206.116.24.146]) by priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.00.05.02 201-2115-109-103-20031105) with SMTP id <20040301220408.UTJI28713.priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net@diamond> for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:04:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c3ffd9$1ee9a2c0$9c01a8c0@diamond> From: "Peter Kieser" To: References: <20040301210843.64256.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:04:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2082 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2082 Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:04:08 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott I. Remick" To: Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 1:08 PM Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD > Maybe you mean mergemaster? Mergemaster is very scary... an overhaul of > that > part of the process would solve 80% of what makes updating FreeBSD an > unpleasant experience for the enduser. The rest is pretty painless, > really, > once you get used to it. Not to say the other parts couldn't be made > easier > for the normal desktop user... but mergemaster isn't even friendly for the > technically-savvy. :) I think they just need to revise the mergemaster(8) man page, they need to explain the concept better. I understood how to use mergemaster after someone explained it to me properly. I don't see how they could really make this automated, because so many people have custom configurations and different environments. However, some of the files processed by mergemaster could be removed, or there could be an explanation of each file while running the script. -- Peter Kieser pfak@telus.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 14:05:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE4416A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:05:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41114.mail.yahoo.com (web41114.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E5F2943D41 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:05:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scott@sremick.net) Message-ID: <20040301220521.64809.qmail@web41114.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [199.172.45.60] by web41114.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 14:05:21 PST X-RocketYMMF: siremick Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:05:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott I. Remick" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040301214610.43290.qmail@web60401.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: scott@sremick.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:05:22 -0000 --- twig les wrote: > Absolutely my experience. We are a Solaris/Cisco shop primarily > bc of the contracts. As a big company we have grand poobah > contracts with both companies that will land us a replacement > server/router/switch within a day. That is a HUGE deal. Bigger > than Sun hardware being better than i386, bigger than > performance, bigger than ease-of-use, etc.. I'm sure a place like http://www.freebsdsystems.com/ could be talked into a similar sort of contract. Money talks, after all. Then there are these lists: http://www.freebsd.org/commercial/hardware.html http://www.freebsd.org/commercial/consulting_bycat.html From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 14:35:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C1116A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:35:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D350843D2F for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:35:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (rocky [192.168.0.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i21MZPG2035816; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:35:28 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <4043BAA8.7040402@401.cx> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:35:20 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matt Jarjoura References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 'clamd / ClamAV version 0.65', clamav-milter version '0.60p' cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:35:42 -0000 Matt Jarjoura wrote: > Hello, > > Again, repeating on a message from an earlier email I sent out on the > list... if RedHat and SUSE are good enough that ISPs are using them, > instead of saying how silly ISPs are to turn their heads away from > FreeBSD, we NEED to be looking at what exactly RedHat & SUSE have that > FreeBSD doesn't. I doubt it's the cushy corporate backing, although > Novel will certainly have the inroads necessary to see a lot of old Unix > machines replaced with their SUSE/Novel boxes. > > A) RedHat and SUSE both have GUI installers. -- Honestly, how important > is it that FreeBSD remain a TUI-only menu based installation-?? Sure > it's simple, but screen-shots of it sure don't appear appetizing to ISPs > in a 2 week window. If a ISP chooses server os based upon screenshots of the installer, I doubt they will be able to stay in bussiness long. > B) RH/SUSE both have great upgrade engines. -- I forget the command > line program in FreeBSD that allows you merge old settings w/ the new > settings. The command line is 'mergemaster'. Shouldnt be too difficult to remember. > C) The FreeBSD Foundation -- Great job w/ releasing Java, but I am sure > they can pull a lot more strings to start hiring UI Research Developers > and release their findings under a similar BSD license. The Foundation could probably do a lot of good, but if it was up to me, I would rather see more things like native Java then GUI's. > My last thought here... > > I am not saying FreeBSD should be focused on Desktop users, but server > admins are starting to get a lot more "desktop-like" features from Mac > OS X Server, Win 2k3, even RH and SUSE. Bandwidth for running X11 over > SSH isn't a problem like it used to be. Ive seen hundreds, if not thousands, of linux servers. Never ever have Ive seen a server run X11. > Just some stuff to keep open for discussion. I nearly lost a recent fight about whether to install RH or FreeBSD on some brand new Dell PowerEdge 1650's. The reason to install RH was native support for the onboard dual nic's, and the ability to 'team' them to one virtual nic providing automatic failover and redundancy. BSD had nothing that could provide something like that. A lot of servers have these dual onboard nic's, I know for sure all of the new Compaq and Dell's have them, and both Compaq and Dell provide drivers for Win2k, linux, Netware and Solaris. None of them even mention BSD. I think this is where BSD is behind. Hardware monitoring and support for those special features most server vendors equip their servers with, thats what make people choose linux over BSD in the serverroom. Redundancy and failure tolerance is the only thing that matters in serious environments. If you dont believe BSD is behind in this area, pick a random motherboard and try getting the hardware monitoring to work. Unless you have one of the very common Abit or ASUS boards, chances are you will fail. Just my 2 cents. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 15:21:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B3E16A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A7243D1D for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:21:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040301232155.GTOD12901.lakemtao07.cox.net@vixen42>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:21:55 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:19:06 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: Johnson David Message-Id: <20040301151906.34565604@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: <200403011109.33238.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> References: <20040229222159.GA47191@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200403011109.33238.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Jonathon McKitrick Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:21:59 -0000 On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:09:33 -0800 Johnson David wrote: > On Sunday 29 February 2004 02:21 pm, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200402/dadvocate.html > > > > I found the article very interesting. > > > > What do you all think? What is being done to keep BSD from ending > > up where Greg says it might be going - suitable only for > > developers? > > What is being done? Nothing. I get the impression that no one "in > charge" is the slightest bit concerned about the FreeBSD user. This > is most notable on the desktop side, but it extends to any user. > There's this attitude that if you want something in FreeBSD, you > must do it yourself. :/ The big problem is there is needed a desktop distro... and a good gtk+ front end to the ports, rc.conf, and sysctl. /me will begin work on this probally when he has time, but has been meaning to get around to it for awhile but has had massive time problems... Sorta would be fun thought... I personally like the idea of it would tick of ppl of certian os communities that love to make fbsd out to be impossible to use and learn... > The lack of commercialization doesn't help either. I think this is > the only long term advantage Linux has over the BSDs. Who pays > people to work on the boring and dreary stuff? Who pays for that new > piece of hardware so a driver can be written sometime before it > becomes obsolete? (I think this situation will turn around as > FreeBSD gains users and becomes noticed by hardware vendors, just > like what happened to Linux about four years ago). Si, I think we will start to see more and more support in the next few years as unix like systems begin to take the spot light agian. > I'm a desktop user. I have noticed more than once some active > disdain towards the desktop by FreeBSD developers. Why is this? Did > I miss the sign out front saying "servers only"? You don't have to > be a dumb-downed system like Lindows to be suitable for the desktop. I think the aim a few years or so ago was to target server use first... atleast from a bit I've heard... no clue thought... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 16:01:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E2416A4CF for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:01:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 883A443D3F for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:01:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:1535) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AxxLC-0006pP-3k; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 16:00:54 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <15HGJVQM>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:52:32 -0800 Received: from Siemens.com (dhcp-46-107.acuson.com [157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id 15H19HG3; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:51:20 -0800 From: Johnson David To: Peter Kieser Message-ID: <4043CE46.5080707@Siemens.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 15:59:02 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000301c3ffd8$88fb8670$9c01a8c0@diamond> In-Reply-To: <000301c3ffd8$88fb8670$9c01a8c0@diamond> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1AxxLC-0006pP-3k*HN4pgCt5jzY* cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:01:21 -0000 Peter Kieser wrote: > I started using FreeBSD when I was 12 (so i've been using it for about 5 > years), and have enjoyed it immensely. Do not change what's proven to > attract it's user base. This discussion has been brought up time and > time again, and we've always decided to stick with the current way of > doing things. I don't think anyone wants to remove what's attracted the current user base. We don't have to do things the "Linux" way. For example, while sysinstall definitely needs an update, we still NEED a text mode admin tool that is simple and efficient to use. Even if a GUI installer or admin tool comes along, no one is arguing that the text mode tools need to vanish to make way for it. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 16:06:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A3C16A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao05.cox.net (lakemtao05.cox.net [68.1.17.116]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0AB43D1D for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:06:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao05.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040302000643.GIMD24099.lakemtao05.cox.net@vixen42>; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:06:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:03:50 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: Matt Jarjoura Message-Id: <20040301160350.75e6ad10@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:06:44 -0000 On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:40:42 -0500 Matt Jarjoura wrote: > Hello, > > Again, repeating on a message from an earlier email I sent out on > the list... if RedHat and SUSE are good enough that ISPs are using > them, instead of saying how silly ISPs are to turn their heads away > from FreeBSD, we NEED to be looking at what exactly RedHat & SUSE > have that FreeBSD doesn't. I doubt it's the cushy corporate > backing, although Novel will certainly have the inroads necessary to > see a lot of old Unix machines replaced with their SUSE/Novel boxes. > > A) RedHat and SUSE both have GUI installers. -- Honestly, how > important is it that FreeBSD remain a TUI-only menu based > installation-?? Sure it's simple, but screen-shots of it sure don't > > appear appetizing to ISPs in a 2 week window. > > B) RH/SUSE both have great upgrade engines. -- I forget the command > > line program in FreeBSD that allows you merge old settings w/ the > new settings. > > C) The FreeBSD Foundation -- Great job w/ releasing Java, but I am > sure they can pull a lot more strings to start hiring UI Research > Developers and release their findings under a similar BSD license. > > > My last thought here... > > I am not saying FreeBSD should be focused on Desktop users, but > server admins are starting to get a lot more "desktop-like" features > from Mac OS X Server, Win 2k3, even RH and SUSE. Bandwidth for > running X11 over SSH isn't a problem like it used to be. The big problem is that freebsd is meant to be done with what ever the user want's to do with it... meaning... it is like X has few predefined ways of doing things... What it needs is a port that provides various management tools. What would also be useful is a desktop oriented install with possibly a more friendly looking TUI... which could also start X and auto start it... wmdrawer and a few quick scripts could take care of most of it... still lacking something useful for sysctl... but script that take care of updating and ect would be no prob to throw together as well as one for handling some configuration... hmm, could be a interesting little port... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 16:18:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C3D016A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from vsmtp3.tin.it (vsmtp3alice.tin.it [212.216.176.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21EB643D2D for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:18:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from victorvittorivonwiktow@interfree.it) Received: from workstation (82.48.219.243) by vsmtp3.tin.it (7.0.019) id 402CD18F00353A0B for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:18:47 +0100 Message-ID: <003801c3ffeb$f1b4c7e0$7a30fea9@workstation> From: ".VWV." To: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:18:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: desktops and 'sysinstall' X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:18:49 -0000 As for the desktops, the problem is the same like on Linuxes: there is no kind of standard. I have ever trusted the GTKstep and the KDEstep - now NEWstep from David Johnson - as the 'standard' visual frontends. As for the installation tool, 'sysinstall' works perfectly, and what's most important, it is GUI independant, therefore keeping itself 'neutral' respect to any visual taste. In my opinion, 'sysinstall's look is the very last problem here. .VWV. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 16:32:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2EDC16A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:32:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ozlabs.org (ozlabs.org [203.10.76.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D38A43D2F for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:32:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (blackwater.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC642BEA0 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:32:23 +1100 (EST) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 50C0551213; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:02:21 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:02:21 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: "Scott I. Remick" Message-ID: <20040302003221.GI71140@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200403011109.33238.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <20040301194121.97837.qmail@web41108.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hTiIB9CRvBOLTyqY" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040301194121.97837.qmail@web41108.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:32:25 -0000 --hTiIB9CRvBOLTyqY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Monday, 1 March 2004 at 11:41:21 -0800, Scott I. Remick wrote: > --- Johnson David wrote: >> I'm a desktop user. I have noticed more than once some active disdain >> towards the desktop by FreeBSD developers. Why is this? Did I miss the >> sign out front saying "servers only"? You don't have to be a >> dumb-downed system like Lindows to be suitable for the desktop. > > I have to concur. For some reason, there seems to be a common attitude that > if you use FreeBSD to any extent, you must be a C++ programmer with the > ability to write drivers and patch applications. While I fully respect the > fact that this is a volunteer effort, the above can come off as rather harsh > and deterring for a new user. We FreeBSD users often scold the Linux > community for their attitude problems... why must we replace one bad > attitude with another in our own community? > > The people who volunteer their free time for the good of the FreeBSD > community can do a lot of things in their sleep which are beyond the > abilities of the common desktop user. Perhaps some have some free time, > perhaps others find a request simple enough that they can balance their time > to handle something that would help someone else. But to make a polite > request and get back "Why don't you port it yourself if you want it?" or > "patch/driver submissions welcome" conveys an impression that FreeBSD is for > developers only... if you can't code, your input isn't desired. Yes, this attitude gets on my nerves too. > I'm sorry to see Greg leave. I own his book and found it very useful. I'm not leaving: I'm still here. I've just left the core team. Greg -- Note: I discard all HTML mail unseen. Finger grog@FreeBSD.org for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --hTiIB9CRvBOLTyqY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAQ9YVIubykFB6QiMRAv9LAJ4yxJwXsTpB1Z/SypAl/BILjoGCyACdE56S 8/YtzzPxqf9aN9jEOUwQQ58= =awfN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hTiIB9CRvBOLTyqY-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 16:34:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4044816A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ozlabs.org (ozlabs.org [203.10.76.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E120443D1D for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:34:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (blackwater.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFAC2BEA0 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:34:04 +1100 (EST) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 6736351213; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:04:02 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:04:02 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Vulpes Velox Message-ID: <20040302003402.GJ71140@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20040229222159.GA47191@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200403011109.33238.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <20040301151906.34565604@vixen42.> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jRdC2OsRnuV8iIl8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040301151906.34565604@vixen42.> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Jonathon McKitrick Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:34:07 -0000 --jRdC2OsRnuV8iIl8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Monday, 1 March 2004 at 15:19:06 -0600, Vulpes Velox wrote: > On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:09:33 -0800 > Johnson David wrote: > >> On Sunday 29 February 2004 02:21 pm, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >>> http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200402/dadvocate.html >>> >>> I found the article very interesting. >>> >>> What do you all think? What is being done to keep BSD from ending >>> up where Greg says it might be going - suitable only for >>> developers? >> >> What is being done? Nothing. I get the impression that no one "in >> charge" is the slightest bit concerned about the FreeBSD user. This >> is most notable on the desktop side, but it extends to any user. >> There's this attitude that if you want something in FreeBSD, you >> must do it yourself. > > :/ The big problem is there is needed a desktop distro... and a good > gtk+ front end to the ports, rc.conf, and sysctl. > > /me will begin work on this probally when he has time, but has been > meaning to get around to it for awhile but has had massive time > problems... You might like to look at the instant-workstation port. That was an attempt I made a couple of years ago to sort out this situation. Greg -- Note: I discard all HTML mail unseen. Finger grog@FreeBSD.org for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --jRdC2OsRnuV8iIl8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAQ9Z6IubykFB6QiMRAi00AJ0aDprlZ9yJ3Ub4OWaAoD8x/Mw4lwCeK5gj EH2nqwc6Thm9VuNg80voYHk= =XMd6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jRdC2OsRnuV8iIl8-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 18:39:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9C416A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:39:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF2B43D2D for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:39:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com ([192.168.42.25]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i222d4E8046532 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:39:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <4043F3A2.7030407@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 20:38:26 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040205 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 02:39:21 -0000 Just for grins, lets build a list of "features" that we feel FreeBSD needs in order to be on track with the other guys. (this is spawned from the recent grog thread) I'll start: ------------- o we have growfs, what about a shrinkfs? o resize partitions on the fly, *without* remounting them- this is essential for NFS servers. o better usb2 support o cardbus breakage needs repair (wosch?) o ------------- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Sr. Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday. ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 18:53:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA34516A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:53:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4740C43D1F for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:53:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1Ay02Q-0001MY-00; Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:53:42 -0800 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4043F3A2.7030407@centtech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 02:53:49 -0000 On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Eric Anderson wrote: > o we have growfs, what about a shrinkfs? > o resize partitions on the fly, *without* remounting them- this is > essential for NFS servers. > o better usb2 support > o cardbus breakage needs repair (wosch?) o official binary updates system o quicker X server autoconfiguration (like kudzu-knoppix and hwdata-knoppix) > o Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 19:00:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C9616A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from vegeta.saiyix (rno-dsl0b-222.gbis.net [216.82.145.222]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 478A343D1F for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:00:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tim@vegeta.ath.cx) Received: by vegeta.saiyix (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 004FD5128; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:00:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:00:36 -0800 From: Tim Hammerquist To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040302030036.GB1110@vegeta> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: Vim-602 http://www.vim.org/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: tim@vegeta.ath.cx List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 03:00:55 -0000 Matt Jarjoura wrote: > Again, repeating on a message from an earlier email I sent out on the > list... if RedHat and SUSE are good enough that ISPs are using them, > instead of saying how silly ISPs are to turn their heads away from > FreeBSD, we NEED to be looking at what exactly RedHat & SUSE have that > FreeBSD doesn't. I doubt it's the cushy corporate backing, although > Novel will certainly have the inroads necessary to see a lot of old > Unix machines replaced with their SUSE/Novel boxes. My local ADSL ISP makes most of their money from corporate customers. Home connectivity is merely for pocket change. Talking to the admins (as well as some netcraft snooping) reveals that they run two OSes on their web servers: FreeBSD and Redhat. The reason for FreeBSD (they said) is stability. The reason behind Redhat is three-fold: stability (452-day uptime on the mail server), loyalty (most servers at the center started out on Redhat many years ago), and the CEO claims to be an old-school kernel hacker. (However, a quick `grep -r` for his name in the 2.6.3 kernel source gives a $? == 1, so...) > A) RedHat and SUSE both have GUI installers. -- Honestly, how > important is it that FreeBSD remain a TUI-only menu based > installation-?? Sure it's simple, but screen-shots of it sure don't > appear appetizing to ISPs in a 2 week window. [...] > I am not saying FreeBSD should be focused on Desktop users, but server > admins are starting to get a lot more "desktop-like" features from Mac > OS X Server, Win 2k3, even RH and SUSE. Bandwidth for running X11 > over SSH isn't a problem like it used to be. I'm certain that GUI installers aren't the reason for my ISP's use of Redhat, since the mail server's still running a (patched) 2.0.40 kernel. Redhat only started using a GUI installer during the 2.4 kernel series. I've seen several people mention how quickly (and under which states of consciousness) they can navigate /stand/sysinstall and it reminded me of my experience with the Linux kernel config front-ends. I like sysinstall for the same reason I prefer Linux' "menuconfig" interface, but that doesn't make it well-designed. In fact, I've noticed several problems with the interactivity and menu hierarchies of both sysinstall and the Linux config systems. I'll continue using Linux' menuconfig interface as well as FreeBSD's sysinstall, glazing over when GUI apps are endorsed. It's just the way I am. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't mind seeing some robust feature dependency checking in menuconfig (as found in the xconfig interface). Nor would I mind in the least if sysinstall allowed me to gracefully break out of a distribution installation. IOW, just because a tool is good doesn't mean there's no room for improvement. Just my US$0.02, Tim Hammerquist From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 21:58:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E18016A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F6FF43D1D for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:58:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040302055811.KMEC12901.lakemtao07.cox.net@vixen42>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:58:11 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:55:22 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Message-Id: <20040301215522.6e2ddaea@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: References: <4043F3A2.7030407@centtech.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 05:58:13 -0000 On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Eric Anderson wrote: > > > o we have growfs, what about a shrinkfs? > > o resize partitions on the fly, *without* remounting them- this is > > essential for NFS servers. > > o better usb2 support > > o cardbus breakage needs repair (wosch?) > > o official binary updates system > > o quicker X server autoconfiguration (like kudzu-knoppix and > hwdata-knoppix) That really a problem? Never taken long here... just two or three seconds... not tried it, but XF86 4.4 lookes like it will work uber nicely for it... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 00:09:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4232016A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D1443D39 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:09:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Ay4xZ-000KHp-IE for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2004 08:09:01 +0000 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i2288tVo056290 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:09:01 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.10/8.12.6/Submit) id i220R6ih055137 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:27:06 GMT Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:27:06 +0000 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040302002705.GA55117@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: -4.6 (----) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1Ay4xZ-000KHp-IE*uQNMqgoCuTw* Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 08:09:04 -0000 I have to agree with most of the posts before this one. Since I have shifted my attention away from the OS, past workstation apps, and onto development, I find I run into lots of little problems because I don't have time to subscribe to every list on the site. Even searching and asking don't always get results. It's this support that's hard to come by. I have to say, I'm glad I'm not trying to use Java on FreeBSD. That can be a nightmare. NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 06:31:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1815816A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 06:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.pccwbtn.com (mx.pccwbtn.com [63.216.0.99]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8659D43D2F for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 06:31:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbrown@btnaccess.com) Received: from willow.webcoves.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.pccwbtn.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i22EVoxp053244; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:31:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mbrown@btnaccess.com) From: Marina Brown Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: Johnson David Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:32:56 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <20040301210843.64256.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com> <200403011329.25897.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> In-Reply-To: <200403011329.25897.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200403020932.56458.> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 14:31:53 -0000 I've taught a number of non-technical people to install the BSD's and som= e=20 linux's. With almost no exeptions they preferred the simpler installs.=20 Slackware installs as well as OpenBSD installs were what they liked best. They did enjoy the Red Hat installs, but they liked the simple installs=20 better. It's easy to want to look like windows, but let's face it. An Operating s= ystem cannot be all things to all people. Marina Brown On Monday 01 March 2004 04:29 pm, Johnson David wrote: > On Monday 01 March 2004 01:08 pm, Scott I. Remick wrote: > > 3) Old cruft. Apparently a lot of people are too scared of the whole > > ncurses/sysinstall beast to dare revamping it. It works, and it's > > tried-and-tested. It's easier and safer to make minor modifications > > to support new versions than to overhaul it. > > > > I wouldn't mind a GUI option, if there were enough people to maintain > > it, but it'd need to only be an option (leaving the current ncurses > > install or some other equivalently-easy text-based install for the > > die-hards). And then you'd have to make sure there were people around > > enough to support 2 separate install scripts (unless a text-based one > > could be automatically generated from the GUI one somehow, using > > templates). > > The sysinstall implementation started out as a quick-n-dirty hack, but > unfortunately it lived on. I've been pondering the solution to this for > a few months now. Frankly I don't see the absolute need for a GUI > installer, but it's certainly a nice thing to have. But a text mode > installer is essential. So the first step is to get a well designed > text mode installer. > > The libh project (sysinstall replacement) is dead. I've have some ideas > on this topic, but it's a bit more than I can do on my own. However, > the only way stuff gets done in FreeBSD is for someone to get an itch > and do it, so I'll probably end up doing something soon. > > David > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.= org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 06:52:30 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4410116A4D1 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 06:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.pccwbtn.com (mx.pccwbtn.com [63.216.0.99]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD8943D49 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 06:52:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbrown@btnaccess.com) Received: from willow.webcoves.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.pccwbtn.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i22EqSxp054685 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:52:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mbrown@btnaccess.com) From: Marina Brown Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:53:34 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <4043F3A2.7030407@centtech.com> <20040301215522.6e2ddaea@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: <20040301215522.6e2ddaea@vixen42.> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200403020953.34593.> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 14:52:30 -0000 On Monday 01 March 2004 10:55 pm, Vulpes Velox wrote: How about full high availability clustering support ;-) Marina Brown > On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) > > "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Eric Anderson wrote: > > > o we have growfs, what about a shrinkfs? > > > o resize partitions on the fly, *without* remounting them- this is > > > essential for NFS servers. > > > o better usb2 support > > > o cardbus breakage needs repair (wosch?) > > > > o official binary updates system > > > > o quicker X server autoconfiguration (like kudzu-knoppix and > > hwdata-knoppix) > > That really a problem? Never taken long here... just two or three > seconds... not tried it, but XF86 4.4 lookes like it will work uber > nicely for it... > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.= org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 08:50:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F8B16A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF07143D31 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:50:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040302165020.NNVA12901.lakemtao07.cox.net@vixen42>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:50:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:47:32 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: Marina Brown Message-Id: <20040302084732.1468c3ca@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: <200403020953.34593.> References: <4043F3A2.7030407@centtech.com> <20040301215522.6e2ddaea@vixen42.> <200403020953.34593.> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 16:50:21 -0000 On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:53:34 -0500 Marina Brown wrote: > On Monday 01 March 2004 10:55 pm, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > How about full high availability clustering support ;-) Should not stuff like that generally be userland instead of OS? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 08:56:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766B816A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:56:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 182EE43D31 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:56:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1AyDBm-00027B-00; Tue, 02 Mar 2004 08:56:14 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:56:14 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040301215522.6e2ddaea@vixen42.> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 16:56:19 -0000 > > o quicker X server autoconfiguration (like kudzu-knoppix and > > hwdata-knoppix) > > That really a problem? Never taken long here... just two or three > seconds... not tried it, but XF86 4.4 lookes like it will work uber > nicely for it... Does XFree86 4.4 include comprehensive Monitor databases (like hwdata-knoppix) and automatically use the correct VertRefresh and HorizSync for your monitor? Does XFree86 4.4 configuration automatically include the best (common) resolutions and modes? Beginners don't want to manually edit their XF86Config. (Defaulting to depth 8 and the common 640x480 is not good enough.) I am just getting started with the 4.4 version. (I am helping update it for NetBSD's "pkgsrc" which is also used under FreeBSD, Linux and others.) Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 10:03:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 013A616A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:03:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao06.cox.net (lakemtao06.cox.net [68.1.17.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490AF43D1D for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:03:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao06.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040302180318.OLAL20509.lakemtao06.cox.net@vixen42>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:03:18 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:00:24 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Message-Id: <20040302100024.29f2bc90@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: References: <20040301215522.6e2ddaea@vixen42.> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 18:03:25 -0000 On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:56:14 -0800 (PST) "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > > > o quicker X server autoconfiguration (like kudzu-knoppix and > > > hwdata-knoppix) > > > > That really a problem? Never taken long here... just two or three > > seconds... not tried it, but XF86 4.4 lookes like it will work > > uber nicely for it... > > Does XFree86 4.4 include comprehensive Monitor databases (like > hwdata-knoppix) and automatically use the correct VertRefresh and > HorizSync for your monitor? Nah, still does not do much in the monitor config area... but getconfig can be used to supply a safe and good defualt... > Does XFree86 4.4 configuration automatically include the best > (common) resolutions and modes? > > Beginners don't want to manually edit their XF86Config. (Defaulting > to depth 8 and the common 640x480 is not good enough.) Yeah, that is why you point them at xf86cfg -textmode for editing it... And again you can use getconfig to provide safe defualts... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 11:17:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE2A16A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:17:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB4C43D2F for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:17:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:2036) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AyFOD-0005hO-3r; Tue, 02 Mar 2004 11:17:13 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <15HGJ040>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:08:50 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id 15H195Q8; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:07:34 -0800 From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:15:17 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <4043F3A2.7030407@centtech.com> In-Reply-To: <4043F3A2.7030407@centtech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403021115.17746.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1AyFOD-0005hO-3r*7AMUKNZw4BQ* Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:17:39 -0000 On Monday 01 March 2004 06:38 pm, Eric Anderson wrote: > Just for grins, lets build a list of "features" that we feel FreeBSD > needs in order to be on track with the other guys. (this is spawned > from the recent grog thread) I'm going to harp a bit on the "desktop". From my perspective, the desktop drives the rest of the market. When Windows is on the desktop of every corporate executive then you're going to find Windows in every other niche as well. It's not because these decision makers think Windows is better, it's just that Windows is the ONLY thing that they know. So I think that better desktop support in FreeBSD is essential. This doesn't mean dumbing down the system. I could list a bunch of features here, but I think the most important thing is to simply recognize that the desktop is a valid place to put FreeBSD. David p.s. If the word "desktop" makes you uncomfortable, think "workstation" instead. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 11:46:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3434E16A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:46:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-67-117-158-73.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [67.117.158.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A0D543D31 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:46:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by snafu.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 69EB69EF39; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:45:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snafu.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66ECA9B148 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:45:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:45:57 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Hoskins To: advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200403020932.56458.> Message-ID: <20040302114445.R53840@snafu.adept.org> References: <20040301210843.64256.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com> <200403011329.25897.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <200403020932.56458.> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:46:02 -0000 On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Marina Brown wrote: > I've taught a number of non-technical people to install the BSD's and some > linux's. With almost no exeptions they preferred the simpler installs. > Slackware installs as well as OpenBSD installs were what they liked best. coming from a slackware background (around '94), i find this humours. it used to have the worst reputation (beside debian perhaps) for "ease of installation". either times have changed, or the people just liked what was explained to them in more detail. (or both.) ;) -m From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 11:47:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8477F16A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-67-117-158-73.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [67.117.158.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB7543D31 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:47:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by snafu.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AADD09EEF0; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snafu.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7D569B148 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:47:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:47:39 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Hoskins To: advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200403020953.34593.> Message-ID: <20040302114622.V53840@snafu.adept.org> References: <4043F3A2.7030407@centtech.com> <20040301215522.6e2ddaea@vixen42.> <200403020953.34593.> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:47:44 -0000 On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Marina Brown wrote: > How about full high availability clustering support ;-) do you mean sharing resources in the cluster, or simply using a set of boxes and something like vrrp to ensure a service is always available? there's a (very low traffic) list dedicated to discussions about the first part, and the latter is already possible, http://freshmeat.net/projects/freebsd-hut/ -m From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 11:56:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBB6A16A578 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:56:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C9843D31 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:56:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (neutrino.centtech.com [10.177.171.220]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i22JtxE8092754; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:55:59 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <4044E6A8.5040208@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 13:55:20 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040205 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johnson David References: <4043F3A2.7030407@centtech.com> <200403021115.17746.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> In-Reply-To: <200403021115.17746.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:56:01 -0000 Johnson David wrote: > On Monday 01 March 2004 06:38 pm, Eric Anderson wrote: > >>Just for grins, lets build a list of "features" that we feel FreeBSD >>needs in order to be on track with the other guys. (this is spawned >>from the recent grog thread) > > > I'm going to harp a bit on the "desktop". From my perspective, the > desktop drives the rest of the market. When Windows is on the desktop > of every corporate executive then you're going to find Windows in every > other niche as well. It's not because these decision makers think > Windows is better, it's just that Windows is the ONLY thing that they > know. > > So I think that better desktop support in FreeBSD is essential. This > doesn't mean dumbing down the system. I have to agree - however I see two classes of "machines" at a company. Workstations/desktops, and servers. Even though many corporate execs or managers only use the desktop, they all seem to understand that a server runs something other than that - be it a different version of windows, linux, bsd, etc. Most only care about the bottom line, and that has to do with money and time. I find that most people have the attitude that if it does everything needed, and is going to be supported for some amount of time, then it's worth considering. I saw a statistic somewhere (trade magazine, but not sure which one) about a year ago that claimed that something like 70% of IT purchase decisions are made by the people who interact with the purchase made. So that means that there is a huge influence on what to buy, or what OS to install, by the admins and tech's building the box. Those are the people that need to feel "warm and fuzzy" about FreeBSD. Of course, I am biased, since I am one of those people. But, I already feel warm and fuzzy :) Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Sr. Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday. ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 13:27:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E064716A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:27:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE55E43D2D for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:27:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:4449) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AyHQH-0006AD-4z; Tue, 02 Mar 2004 13:27:29 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:19:08 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id GFNWBMSF; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:17:58 -0800 From: Johnson David To: Eric Anderson Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 13:25:40 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <4043F3A2.7030407@centtech.com> <200403021115.17746.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <4044E6A8.5040208@centtech.com> In-Reply-To: <4044E6A8.5040208@centtech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403021325.40653.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1AyHQH-0006AD-4z*QFAF95efWA2* cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:27:58 -0000 On Tuesday 02 March 2004 11:55 am, Eric Anderson wrote: > I have to agree - however I see two classes of "machines" at a > company. Workstations/desktops, and servers. Even though many > corporate execs or managers only use the desktop, they all seem to > understand that a server runs something other than that - be it a > different version of windows, linux, bsd, etc. While they may see that the server needs to run something else, all too often it's merely a different version of Windows. They're smart enough to know that Windows XP Home Edition is inappropriate for the mail server, but not educated enough to know that Windows itself is inappropriate. The sad fact is that those making technology decisions are no longer technologically savvy. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 14:07:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114BD16A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from web60409.mail.yahoo.com (web60409.mail.yahoo.com [216.109.118.192]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 96E0943D1F for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:07:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from twigles@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040302220734.34073.qmail@web60409.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.5.51.136] by web60409.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Mar 2004 14:07:34 PST Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:07:34 -0800 (PST) From: twig les To: Johnson David , Eric Anderson In-Reply-To: <200403021325.40653.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 22:07:36 -0000 > inappropriate. The sad fact is that those making technology > decisions > are no longer technologically savvy. > > David I mentioned this about a year ago in a similar thread; I don't think FBSD needs to get *anything* done to replace the majority of Linux/Windoze servers. Nothing technical anyway. The OS runs great; the problem is one of PR. We have nothing to throw the name "FreeBSD" in ppl's faces like that god-awful MCSE thing does for MS. We can not compete with this type of marketing by telling our MBA boss about the cool new filesystem acls in 5.x. Every knowledgeble and experienced *nix admin I've ever met has admitted that FBSD is a great OS, even if they are primarily Debian, Slowaris, RH, whatever users/admins. Unfortunately this is a very difficult problem to solve, especially when most the geeks I know start to sneer when anyone talks about marketing bs. While it is offensive to many of us (myself included), we can't afford to ignore it. ===== ----------------------------------------------------------- With a few exceptions, secrecy is deeply incompatible with democracy and with science. --Carl Sagan ----------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 14:15:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1EE16A4D0 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:15:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.pccwbtn.com (mx.pccwbtn.com [63.216.0.99]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 343E243D39 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:15:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbrown@btnaccess.com) Received: from willow.webcoves.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.pccwbtn.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i22MF1xp085239; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:15:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mbrown@btnaccess.com) From: Marina Brown Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: Mike Hoskins Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:16:07 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <4043F3A2.7030407@centtech.com> <200403020953.34593.> <20040302114622.V53840@snafu.adept.org> In-Reply-To: <20040302114622.V53840@snafu.adept.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200403021716.07752.> cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 22:15:11 -0000 On Tuesday 02 March 2004 02:47 pm, Mike Hoskins wrote: > On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Marina Brown wrote: > > How about full high availability clustering support ;-) > > do you mean sharing resources in the cluster, or simply using a set of > boxes and something like vrrp to ensure a service is always available? > there's a (very low traffic) list dedicated to discussions about the fi= rst > part, and the latter is already possible, > > http://freshmeat.net/projects/freebsd-hut/ > Thank you for the pointer. What i am looking for is High Availability clustering - not the parallell= =20 stuff like a beowolf... Marina > -m > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.= org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 14:22:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53EFD16A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:22:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4093943D2F for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:22:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i22MM2jL033423; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:22:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id i22MM24j033422; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:22:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:22:02 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: Marina Brown Message-ID: <20040302142202.A33321@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <4043F3A2.7030407@centtech.com> <200403020953.34593.> <20040302114622.V53840@snafu.adept.org> <200403021716.07752.> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200403021716.07752.>; from mbrown@btnaccess.com on Tue, Mar 02, 2004 at 05:16:07PM -0500 cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 22:22:23 -0000 On Tue, Mar 02, 2004 at 05:16:07PM -0500, Marina Brown wrote: > > http://freshmeat.net/projects/freebsd-hut/ > > > Thank you for the pointer. > > What i am looking for is High Availability clustering - not the parallell > stuff like a beowolf... Perhaps you shoud actually check out the project page ;-) "The HighUpTime Project is a high availability clustering system built with two or more real servers." We've used it before and it works fine. Cheers, -matt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 14:46:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2C0816A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29AC43D2F for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:46:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040302224649.QWQJ12901.lakemtao07.cox.net@vixen42>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:46:49 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:44:01 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: twig les Message-Id: <20040302144401.37863ebf@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: <20040302220734.34073.qmail@web60409.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200403021325.40653.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <20040302220734.34073.qmail@web60409.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 22:46:52 -0000 On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:07:34 -0800 (PST) twig les wrote: > > > inappropriate. The sad fact is that those making technology > > decisions > > are no longer technologically savvy. > > > > David > > I mentioned this about a year ago in a similar thread; I don't > think FBSD needs to get *anything* done to replace the majority > of Linux/Windoze servers. Nothing technical anyway. The OS > runs great; the problem is one of PR. > > We have nothing to throw the name "FreeBSD" in ppl's faces like > that god-awful MCSE thing does for MS. We can not compete with > this type of marketing by telling our MBA boss about the cool > new filesystem acls in 5.x. Every knowledgeble and experienced > *nix admin I've ever met has admitted that FBSD is a great OS, > even if they are primarily Debian, Slowaris, RH, whatever > users/admins. Not really cert related, but what could be useful in this area possibly is on one of the sidebars, most under the devel and production part, include a link to a page that has lots of info about the capabilities such as max fs size of support fss, max ram, max number of cpus it can handle, info on user scaling(can't think of what it is called), and the like... > Unfortunately this is a very difficult problem to solve, > especially when most the geeks I know start to sneer when anyone > talks about marketing bs. While it is offensive to many of us > (myself included), we can't afford to ignore it. I think as long as it is all true and no bs is involved, I doubt it would be much of a problem... I think when marketing execs begin piling on loads of bs is where most geeks begin having probs... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 15:33:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541E116A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 15:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from vsmtp4.tin.it (unknown [212.216.176.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3AD43D41 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 15:33:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from victorvittorivonwiktow@interfree.it) Received: from workstation (82.48.219.202) by vsmtp4.tin.it (7.0.019) id 402CD2F0003A28A1 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 00:33:47 +0100 Message-ID: <001c01c400ae$d4274770$7a30fea9@workstation> From: ".VWV." To: References: <4043F3A2.7030407@centtech.com><200403021115.17746.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <4044E6A8.5040208@centtech.com> <200403021325.40653.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 00:33:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: workstations aren't always the same as desktops X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 23:33:49 -0000 > On Tuesday 02 March 2004 11:55 am, Eric Anderson wrote: > > > I have to agree - however I see two classes of "machines" at a > > company. Workstations/desktops, and servers. What's common to workstations and desktops is the need of a the graphical environment, and a similar frontend for all of the applications. A serious workstation must otherwise have high calculation speed, combined with a rock-solid filesystem, possibly with ATA or SCSI mirroring RAID. Another need are emulators and compatibility layers, in order to run on the the same host o.s. multiple guest o.s. for the use of several commercial applications. FreeBSD unfortunately lacks of support from VMWare. A desktop pseudo-compuer can instead also be hard discount stuff. .VWV. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 16:57:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E2716A4D1 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 16:57:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38F1843D41 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 16:57:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1AyKh2-0002WL-00; Tue, 02 Mar 2004 16:57:00 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 16:57:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: ".VWV." In-Reply-To: <001c01c400ae$d4274770$7a30fea9@workstation> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: workstations aren't always the same as desktops X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 00:57:06 -0000 On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, .VWV. wrote: > need are emulators and compatibility layers, in order to run on the the same > host o.s. multiple guest o.s. for the use of several commercial > applications. FreeBSD unfortunately lacks of support from VMWare. I have been using bochs off and on the past couple months. It works fine for me (although slow). I don't use vmware. For those who use bochs and vmware, how do they compare? Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 17:24:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9374A16A4CF for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:24:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from vsmtp2.tin.it (unknown [212.216.176.142]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F2D43D1F for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:24:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from victorvittorivonwiktow@interfree.it) Received: from workstation (82.48.219.202) by vsmtp2.tin.it (7.0.019) id 4043D1B500035FB9 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 02:24:55 +0100 Message-ID: <001e01c400be$5af6b380$7a30fea9@workstation> From: ".VWV." To: References: Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 02:24:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: Re: Re: workstations aren't always the same as desktops X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 01:24:57 -0000 ---- Original Message ---- From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: ".VWV." Cc: Sent: Wednesday, 03 March, 2004 01:57 Subject: Re: workstations aren't always the same as desktops > I have been using bochs off and on the past couple months. It works fine > for me (although slow). This is a potential bomb, because people of Apple seem don't want to release the necessary, in order tu run Apple-dedicated commercial stuff on other platforms, even if the o.s. is FreeBSD based. As for speed, running WIN code will ever be a bastard solution, but it seems there is no alternative as for commercial applications. It is a nonsense, but business always mangles technology. What kind of virus has infected Steve Jobs' mind, supposed it was somewhat healthy years ago? .VWV. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 18:57:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA0ED16A4CF for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 18:57:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3675243D1D for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 18:57:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i232v4UA081413; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 04:57:04 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i232v4Ze081410; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 04:57:04 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 04:57:04 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Scott I. Remick" In-Reply-To: <20040301194121.97837.qmail@web41108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040303042324.P79809@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040301194121.97837.qmail@web41108.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 02:57:35 -0000 On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Scott I. Remick wrote: > --- Johnson David wrote: > > I'm a desktop user. I have noticed more than once some active disdain > > towards the desktop by FreeBSD developers. Why is this? Did I miss the > > sign out front saying "servers only"? You don't have to be a > > dumb-downed system like Lindows to be suitable for the desktop. > > I have to concur. For some reason, there seems to be a common attitude that > if you use FreeBSD to any extent, you must be a C++ programmer with the > ability to write drivers and patch applications. While I fully respect the > fact that this is a volunteer effort, the above can come off as rather harsh > and deterring for a new user. We FreeBSD users often scold the Linux > community for their attitude problems... why must we replace one bad > attitude with another in our own community? > The attitude towards "FreeBSD on desktop" used to be *REALLY* bad. Up to and including core(*1) members saying that FreeBSD on desktop was pointless and servers are the only direction. Its reasonable now even if not exactly embracing. Which is a pity - peopel don't seem to draw a connection between developers choice of desktops to servers getting installed. > The people who volunteer their free time for the good of the FreeBSD > community can do a lot of things in their sleep which are beyond the > abilities of the common desktop user. Perhaps some have some free time, yes, but... I'd rather not be at a sever disadvantage because I use freebsd on desktop instead of using linux. > perhaps others find a request simple enough that they can balance their time > to handle something that would help someone else. But to make a polite > request and get back "Why don't you port it yourself if you want it?" or > "patch/driver submissions welcome" conveys an impression that FreeBSD is for > developers only... if you can't code, your input isn't desired. > > I know it's all volunteer, and I volunteer my time and efforts in the ways I > can despite not being a C++ coder. Nor have I graduated to the point where I > can port applications (although I will be willing to attempt it once I can > have an additional test PC environment where I can risk experimenting with > apps not in the ports tree). But I field a lot of new-user questions, have > gotten several people up and going who turn to me first with questions, I > run an advocacy/news/help site, and so on. We all help as we can. > > I'm sorry to see Greg leave. I own his book and found it very useful. > Definitely - I have seen him do tons of very important stuff, I hope he does stay around. (*1) This is the old-old, unlected core i'm talking about From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 19:00:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0CA516A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:00:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E8A43D1F for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:00:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2330FUA081467; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 05:00:15 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i2330FrK081464; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 05:00:15 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 05:00:15 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Scott I. Remick" In-Reply-To: <20040301210843.64256.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040303045758.S79809@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040301210843.64256.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 03:00:44 -0000 On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Scott I. Remick wrote: > > --- Matt Jarjoura wrote: > > > A) RedHat and SUSE both have GUI installers. -- Honestly, how > > important is it that FreeBSD remain a TUI-only menu based > > installation-?? Sure it's simple, but screen-shots of it sure don't > > appear appetizing to ISPs in a 2 week window. > > Actually, it's important for 3 reasons: > > 1) Compatibility. You can't even depend on 640x480 working on every piece of > hardware you might wish to install FreeBSD on. Some embedded applications > can't do any graphics. > this is not an argument against GUI installer, but simply keeping another way open. > 2) Speed. I'm still rather green w/ FreeBSD compared to many, but I can fly > through the FreeBSD setup in just a few mins. > you could teh same with a gui installer on anything - gui speed is really unliekly to be an issue. > 3) Old cruft. Apparently a lot of people are too scared of the whole > ncurses/sysinstall beast to dare revamping it. It works, and it's > tried-and-tested. It's easier and safer to make minor modifications to > support new versions than to overhaul it. > This is a very good reason for killing it. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 19:03:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1416116A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:03:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FE1D43D1D for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:02:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2332VUA081520; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 05:02:31 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i2332U7N081517; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 05:02:31 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 05:02:30 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Vulpes Velox In-Reply-To: <20040301151906.34565604@vixen42.> Message-ID: <20040303050149.H79809@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040229222159.GA47191@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20040301151906.34565604@vixen42.> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 03:03:00 -0000 On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Vulpes Velox wrote: > On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:09:33 -0800 > Johnson David wrote: > > > On Sunday 29 February 2004 02:21 pm, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200402/dadvocate.html > > > > > > I found the article very interesting. > > > > > > What do you all think? What is being done to keep BSD from ending > > > up where Greg says it might be going - suitable only for > > > developers? > > > > What is being done? Nothing. I get the impression that no one "in > > charge" is the slightest bit concerned about the FreeBSD user. This > > is most notable on the desktop side, but it extends to any user. > > There's this attitude that if you want something in FreeBSD, you > > must do it yourself. > > :/ The big problem is there is needed a desktop distro... and a good > gtk+ front end to the ports, rc.conf, and sysctl. > +1 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 19:15:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0745216A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:15:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB8243D31 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:15:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i233FKUA081635; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 05:15:20 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i233FK7Y081632; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 05:15:20 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 05:15:20 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: ".VWV." In-Reply-To: <003801c3ffeb$f1b4c7e0$7a30fea9@workstation> Message-ID: <20040303050313.M79809@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <003801c3ffeb$f1b4c7e0$7a30fea9@workstation> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: desktops and 'sysinstall' X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 03:15:50 -0000 On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, .VWV. wrote: > > As for the desktops, the problem is the same like on Linuxes: there is no > kind of standard. > I have ever trusted the GTKstep and the KDEstep - now NEWstep from David > Johnson - as the 'standard' visual frontends. > There is *ONLY* one way - you establish the standard for your desktop distro - * pick gnome or kde [1] * make sure it gets installed by default and that the other is not included * pick one good tool to do anything * integration, integration, integration (everything should for example use the same way to print so there is only one place to configure it, and its nicely graphic so your grandmother can do it) * anything that doesn't absolutely seamlessly fit in should be allowed in only on pain of pain. * if you can at all, throw everything from previous step out * make anything obviously non-core an optional package. * don't make things that don't fit the grand scheme optional packages - just leave them out. This may be highly herectical, but get the Sun JDS demo CD and try it out. Its not ideal but moving in the right direction. [1] realistcly, following the next steps is very hard if you don't pick one of these two > > .VWV. > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 19:37:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B2E116A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D616043D2F for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:37:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitsune@gmx.co.uk) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040303033723.UJYE12901.lakemtao07.cox.net@vixen42>; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 22:37:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:34:34 -0600 From: kitsune To: Narvi Message-Id: <20040302193434.4414a488@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: <20040303045758.S79809@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040301210843.64256.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com> <20040303045758.S79809@haldjas.folklore.ee> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: my thoughts on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 03:37:23 -0000 On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 05:00:15 +0200 (EET) Narvi wrote: > > > On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Scott I. Remick wrote: > > > > > --- Matt Jarjoura wrote: > > > > > A) RedHat and SUSE both have GUI installers. -- Honestly, how > > > important is it that FreeBSD remain a TUI-only menu based > > > installation-?? Sure it's simple, but screen-shots of it sure > > > don't appear appetizing to ISPs in a 2 week window. > > > > Actually, it's important for 3 reasons: > > > > 1) Compatibility. You can't even depend on 640x480 working on > > every piece of hardware you might wish to install FreeBSD on. Some > > embedded applications can't do any graphics. > > > > this is not an argument against GUI installer, but simply keeping > another way open. Actually this is a arguement against using it as a defualt... > > 2) Speed. I'm still rather green w/ FreeBSD compared to many, but > > I can fly through the FreeBSD setup in just a few mins. > > > > you could teh same with a gui installer on anything - gui speed is > really unliekly to be an issue. Possibly... If GUI is going to be on the defualt install disk it should come up as giving an option of either gui or text... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 20:35:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C19C916A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 20:35:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A01643D31 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 20:35:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1AyO6f-0002ez-00; Tue, 02 Mar 2004 20:35:41 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 20:35:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040302100024.29f2bc90@vixen42.> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 04:35:46 -0000 On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > Does XFree86 4.4 include comprehensive Monitor databases (like > > hwdata-knoppix) and automatically use the correct VertRefresh and > > HorizSync for your monitor? > > Nah, still does not do much in the monitor config area... but > getconfig can be used to supply a safe and good defualt... I am now looking at getconfig and the mostly empty .cfg examples. Where can I find useful getconfig data (with many entries like hwdata)? > > Does XFree86 4.4 configuration automatically include the best > > (common) resolutions and modes? > > > > Beginners don't want to manually edit their XF86Config. (Defaulting > > to depth 8 and the common 640x480 is not good enough.) > > Yeah, that is why you point them at xf86cfg -textmode for editing > it... I will have to see if that is easy. > And again you can use getconfig to provide safe defualts... Also, where are the beginner's directions for using getconfig? (getconfig's man page doesn't help the newbie.) Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 21:01:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC4A16A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 21:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao05.cox.net (lakemtao05.cox.net [68.1.17.116]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FBC843D1F for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2004 21:01:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao05.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040303050152.TXXW24099.lakemtao05.cox.net@vixen42>; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 00:01:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 20:58:58 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Message-Id: <20040302205858.24cbe46a@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: References: <20040302100024.29f2bc90@vixen42.> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 05:01:55 -0000 On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 20:35:41 -0800 (PST) "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > I am now looking at getconfig and the mostly empty .cfg examples. > > Where can I find useful getconfig data (with many entries like > hwdata)? I am just aware of it from the the XF86 site... not tried out 4.4.0 yet... #XFree86 on freenode.net may be useful... and then theres bound to be a few useful mailing lists... > > > Does XFree86 4.4 configuration automatically include the best > > > (common) resolutions and modes? > > > > > > Beginners don't want to manually edit their XF86Config. > > > (Defaulting to depth 8 and the common 640x480 is not good > > > enough.) > > > > Yeah, that is why you point them at xf86cfg -textmode for editing > > it... > > I will have to see if that is easy. It is =] > > And again you can use getconfig to provide safe defualts... > > Also, where are the beginner's directions for using getconfig? > > (getconfig's man page doesn't help the newbie.) Since it is a new tool, give it awhile and see the above... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 3 08:11:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB8516A4CE for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:11:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C040C43D4C for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:11:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rolnif@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id i23GBpNS022162 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:11:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (ip-64-139-32-235.dsl.sjc.megapath.net [64.139.47.235] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin08/MantshX 3.0) with ESMTP id i23GBolf017586 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:11:51 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) In-Reply-To: <001e01c400be$5af6b380$7a30fea9@workstation> References: <001e01c400be$5af6b380$7a30fea9@workstation> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <742ABCF9-6D2D-11D8-9B95-0003937C0B34@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Martinez Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:11:39 -0800 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Subject: Re: workstations aren't always the same as desktops X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 16:11:51 -0000 On Mar 2, 2004, at 5:24 PM, .VWV. wrote: > ---- Original Message ---- > From: "Jeremy C. Reed" > To: ".VWV." > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, 03 March, 2004 01:57 > Subject: Re: workstations aren't always the same as desktops > >> I have been using bochs off and on the past couple months. It works >> fine >> for me (although slow). > > This is a potential bomb, because people of Apple seem don't want to > release > the necessary, in order tu run Apple-dedicated commercial stuff on > other > platforms, even if the o.s. is FreeBSD based. Of course not. They want you to buy a piece of hardware with that Mac OS X installation. -john From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 3 16:09:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E7AE16A4CE for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:09:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from vsmtp4.tin.it (unknown [212.216.176.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4343843D2D for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:09:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from victorvittorivonwiktow@interfree.it) Received: from workstation (82.48.221.218) by vsmtp4.tin.it (7.0.019) id 402CD2F0003DC178 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 01:09:21 +0100 Message-ID: <000501c4017c$f74d7e80$7a30fea9@workstation> From: ".VWV." To: References: <001e01c400be$5af6b380$7a30fea9@workstation> <742ABCF9-6D2D-11D8-9B95-0003937C0B34@mac.com> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 01:09:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: Re: Re: workstations aren't always the same as desktops X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 00:09:22 -0000 ---- Original Message ---- From: "John Martinez" To: Sent: Wednesday, 03 March, 2004 17:11 Subject: Re: workstations aren't always the same as desktops > On Mar 2, 2004, at 5:24 PM, .VWV. wrote: > >> ---- Original Message ---- >> From: "Jeremy C. Reed" >> To: ".VWV." >> Cc: >> Sent: Wednesday, 03 March, 2004 01:57 >> Subject: Re: workstations aren't always the same as desktops >> >>> I have been using bochs off and on the past couple months. It works >>> fine >>> for me (although slow). >> >> This is a potential bomb, because people of Apple seem don't want to >> release >> the necessary, in order tu run Apple-dedicated commercial stuff on >> other >> platforms, even if the o.s. is FreeBSD based. > > Of course not. They want you to buy a piece of hardware with that Mac > OS X installation. They should figure out myself purchasing their plastic-boxes... I like to build my own 'stations' on 19" steel rackmount modules, into cubic steel cabinets, with metal removable racks, plus a modified air cooling system, based on the Alpha micro-forged heatsinks... Adding-on some Corsair memory modules and an ICP Vortex SCSI controller, the beast is done... I have just received a funny fake message from my provider, with the add-on of an executable for my WIN, dressed like a .zip. Maybe somebody doesn't like my taste for free-thinking... VMWare should work on /usr/compat/linux, it is told in 'The Complete Reference FreeBSD' by Roderick W. Smith, 'Mc Graw Hill Osborne' editions. I'll try. As always roadrunner .VWV. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 3 23:52:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B2D216A4CE for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:52:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pimout5-ext.prodigy.net (pimout5-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBE5043D1F for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:52:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lists@markemmanuel.org) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (adsl-68-23-175-10.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net [68.23.175.10])i247qj3l169270; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 02:52:45 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) In-Reply-To: <20040303042324.P79809@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040301194121.97837.qmail@web41108.mail.yahoo.com> <20040303042324.P79809@haldjas.folklore.ee> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: markemmanuel Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 01:52:46 -0600 To: Narvi , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 07:52:47 -0000 I agree. I wish people will see that connection between desktops and servers. I'm not a developer, programmer, or anyone six feet deep in the computing industry. Here are some experiences I have. I used MacOS X and heard there were BSD parts in it so I joined the lists. FreeBSD doesn't have a working PPC port so I went to NetBSD so I can install NetBSD on an unused iMac. My brother is an EE student at IIT. Most of his classes uses Windows based programs so he uses Windows on his personal computer. He's interested in setting up a webserver in his dorm room. He just built a new computer for his workstation so he can do homework faster and play games and using his old machine as a server. Guess what he's considering for his server? He pokes fun at me because I can't play cool games and it takes me forever to get this fileserver at home going on NetBSD because I'm not used to using a *NIX computer. I played around with Linux on a PowerMac 6100 and didn't like the install experience as I was a newbie user. No graphic interface or anything. I wanted to learn *Nix but I wanted gradually get into it. I got turned off. Recently, I saw some of the new Linux distros and found them to be really nice. I don't need them now since I'm using MacOS X usually and mess around with its guts using Terminal. My friend uses Linux. We share webspace over at a company that's known to use FreeBSD. He's moving to another server leaving me to find a new internet room mate. The company serving his files uses Linux. My brother makes fun of Linux users because every one he knows has had problems with Linux keeping track of time. Long story short... There's a connnection between those who use it on the desktop first and those who use the desktop later. I personally would love to see two flavors floating around and marketed. A set of CDs or DVD that has the GUI as default and one that uses a TUI. I'd also like to see updated drivers for all the BSDs and a major company deciding to back the BSDs and openly advocate them. MacOSX has some text saying that parts of the OS was derived from BSD BUT it's in really smnall text and it feels like Apple is trying to align themselves with the Linux crowd. If I had a company, I'd push BSD in some way, have a default and standard GUI for the everyday user and to lower tech support costs, increase BSD advocacy, hire some people involved with BSD so they can spend time on BSD and get paid, and many other things. Now, how to build a profitable company and pursue these ideas? I don't know. Maybe I can become yet another box builder and ship each computer with an uninstalled copy of FreeBSD and a pamplet about it. I'd love to see some native games on FreeBSD. Sorry for my rambling. On Mar 2, 2004, at 8:57 PM, Narvi wrote: > The attitude towards "FreeBSD on desktop" used to be *REALLY* bad. Up > to > and including core(*1) members saying that FreeBSD on desktop was > pointless and servers are the only direction. Its reasonable now even > if > not exactly embracing. Which is a pity - peopel don't seem to draw a > connection between developers choice of desktops to servers getting > installed. --markemmanuel ___________________t_h_e_w_o_l_f_p_u_p_._c_o_m_. Markemmanuel F. Rodriguez http://www.thewolfpup.com/ ________________________________________________________. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 4 09:10:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57EE016A4CE for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:10:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E922743D39 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:10:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AywMs-0008Mm-2j; Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:10:42 +0100 From: Daniela To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:04:51 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403041804.51038.dgw@liwest.at> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 17:10:46 -0000 On Tuesday 02 March 2004 02:53, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Eric Anderson wrote: > > o we have growfs, what about a shrinkfs? > > o resize partitions on the fly, *without* remounting them- this is > > essential for NFS servers. > > o better usb2 support > > o cardbus breakage needs repair (wosch?) > > o official binary updates system > > o quicker X server autoconfiguration (like kudzu-knoppix and > hwdata-knoppix) o better compatibility I asked a lot of people what keeps them from dumping Windoze. The main reason for not switching is that they fear having to throw out their existing data and apps with it. > > o > > Jeremy C. Reed > http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 4 10:24:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF7316A4CE for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao08.cox.net (lakemtao08.cox.net [68.1.17.113]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6946843D2D for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:24:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao08.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040304182420.OCLB12895.lakemtao08.cox.net@vixen42>; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:24:20 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:21:25 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: Daniela Message-Id: <20040304102125.6c49612b@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: <200403041804.51038.dgw@liwest.at> References: <200403041804.51038.dgw@liwest.at> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:24:21 -0000 On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:04:51 +0000 Daniela wrote: > o better compatibility > > I asked a lot of people what keeps them from dumping Windoze. The > main reason for not switching is that they fear having to throw out > their existing data and apps with it. Sorta find it odd to expect the exact same program to work, and wine is a pain to work with, but what could be useful is something that points to programs that provide similar features or whatever to what they where using on windows... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 4 11:46:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB31016A4CE for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8519243D2F for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:46:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from daleco.biz ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:47:07 -0600 Message-ID: <404787A3.5080600@daleco.biz> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 13:46:43 -0600 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vulpes Velox References: <200403041804.51038.dgw@liwest.at> <20040304102125.6c49612b@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: <20040304102125.6c49612b@vixen42.> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Mar 2004 19:47:08.0218 (UTC) FILETIME=[7A4BC9A0:01C40221] cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:46:47 -0000 Vulpes Velox wrote: >On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:04:51 +0000 >Daniela wrote: > > > >> o better compatibility >> >>I asked a lot of people what keeps them from dumping Windoze. The >>main reason for not switching is that they fear having to throw out >>their existing data and apps with it. >> >> > >Sorta find it odd to expect the exact same program to work, and wine >is a pain to work with, but what could be useful is something that >points to programs that provide similar features or whatever to what >they where using on windows... > > That's a good point, but we still don't have genuine data compatibility. I mean, we can open a *.doc, *.rtf, *.wmv, *.ppt, etc., as long as we've had a month or three to check out the latest version of whatever M$ has done to break the old format. I see two barriers: standardization and economic pragmatism. We need to try and convince the world that _standards_ should be adhered to, and that applications should write data to files that are platform/application independent rather than proprietary. (And probably, we need to convince them that we adhere to the standards while the 'industry leader' doesn't ... we all know it's true, but nobody complains about this loudly in the public square. And it's probably only the Open Source community that really cares about standards.... When you have to have a converter for a Windows(R) "Notepad"* file, somebody's not playing ball with the rest of the world. I think we all know who that is.... :-( As far as apps go, people just tend to be very pragmatic. Once they've learned a way to work, they prefer to _do_ work, rather than learn another way to do the same thing. For the public to want/need us on their desktops, we need to be more _practical_ to use than any other system. Better price? Absolutely :-) Better support? Doubt it. We have very talented people, but less of them, and less $$ to waste on phone banks. Better stability? 99 && 44/100% yes. Better reputation? dunno...ours may be 'better', but theirs is 'bigger.' Better learning curve? This is where 'tools, not policy' hurts us. Don't get me wrong, I love this paradigm, but Joe and Sally User just want to be told what to click when, not to "RTFM" and think for themselves. And to compound the problem, sys admins know these facts as well, and many of them are walking testimonies to what I've said; and we've got to convert them as well.... I see very few reasons why IT guys shouldn't have offices full of users with Gnome or KDE on FreeBSD, but the reasons that are there are giants.... Maybe we need to convince IBM they need an total OS, not just a kernel ... ;-) Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. *"Come, sir, I think you picked a poor example...^M Did I?^M" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 4 12:56:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0348616A4CE for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:56:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.laserfence.net (apollo.laserfence.net [196.44.69.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A1443D45 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:56:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@unfoldings.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by apollo.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1Ayzsa-000FtZ-9p; Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:55:40 +0200 Received: from apollo.laserfence.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (apollo.laserfence.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 60674-01; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:54:27 +0200 (SAST) Received: from [192.168.255.1] (helo=prometheus.home.laserfence.net) by apollo.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1AyzrG-000FtB-7f; Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:54:19 +0200 Received: from arista.home.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.10] helo=arista) by prometheus.home.laserfence.net with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 1AyzrB-0009Ep-00; Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:54:13 +0200 Message-ID: <022b01c4022a$e14edb20$0a00a8c0@arista> From: "Willie Viljoen" To: "Daniela" , "Jeremy C. Reed" , References: <200403041804.51038.dgw@liwest.at> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:54:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at laserfence.net Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:56:14 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniela" To: "Jeremy C. Reed" ; Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:04 PM Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted > > o better compatibility > > I asked a lot of people what keeps them from dumping Windoze. The main reason > for not switching is that they fear having to throw out their existing data > and apps with it. > Daniela, Sadly, that is more complicated than it seems. The problem with perfect Windows compatibility is that anything looking and working just like Windows, to an application, would have to be Windows, or atleast, an exact duplicate. The problem with exact duplicates is software patents. In countries where Microsoft still hold certain software patents, particularly pertaining to interaction between applications and other applications, or applications and the operating system, emulating Windows so exactly, even with the emulation built from completely different source code, just "pretending" to be Windows, would still infringe on some patents. More countries are moving to the possibility of software patents all the time, this is a shift being driven by large corporations, and in many cases the local Microsoft branch office, lobying with governments around the world. Getting the kind of compatibility people really want would mean a sacrifice too great for any operating system project. People wishing to use it in countries where it infringes on patents would either have to license each patent upon which it infringes, or would face lawsuits over the illegal use of these patents. Basically, in order to achieve this compatibility, we would need to sacrifice the very right to run FreeBSD in many countries in the world. What really needs to happen is that old hat software developers need to catch up with the times. Developing cross platform software that will work on many UNIX platforms, and on Windows, even Macintosh, without major code rewriting or great cost has long been possible. Developers mostly just ignore this possibility because they generally refuse to change to newer ways of developing software, which involve designing applications, from the outset, to be easily portable. The only thing needed for this is the right attitude. There is an excellent case in point for development of cross platform capable software. The ease with which the computer gaming industry can port new titles between the traditional Windows PC platform, UNIX-based PCs and the numerous game consoles on the market demonstrates the effectiveness of cross platform designed software. In many cases, where the developers took the short extra time to write a proper abstraction layer for the game, a plug-in need only be developed for the abstraction layer that allows it to interact with which ever API is available on the target platform. Large game developers these days are finding it easy to release games that run on pretty much anything. Instead of writing the game to interact directly with an API, it is written to interact with an abstraction layer providing all the functionality the game requires. Then, they need only write a "driver", interfacing the abstraction layer with each API on each platform. For instance, a DirectX driver to work on Windows, and MESA video driver and standard UNIX /dev/dsp output for UNIX devices. Development of these "drivers" is extremely quick. While it takes slightly longer to develop an extensive abstraction layer, the reward, being able to port effortlessly to any platform, greatly off-sets the cost and time usage for development of the abstraction layer. Developers of other applications can learn from this case and develop their software to be easily portable, sadly, most executives still don't see it that way, feeling that it is better to write software to interact directly with which ever platform, thus in doing so, saving a small amount of time and money and inadvertently helping Microsoft hold on to their PC monopoly. Until that phylosophy changes, sadly, people will not move away from Windows. Also, discarding old applications should never be seen as being such a bad thing. This is also a question of having the right attitude. Applications, by the very definition, become outdated or obsolete after a sufficient period of time. Economic conditions may change, more data may need to be collected, larger datasets may need to be handled. The traditional, cheap, solution to this problem is what the enginering industry calls "retrofitting". To explain it in enginering terms, a building not up to current building codes, being at risk of collapse due to earth quakes for instance, may be wrapped in steel lattices to support and strengthen it. While it protects the building from the quake hazzard, it also greatly reduces its usefullness. The heavy lattices are aesthetically displeasing, limit movement and visibility on outside portions of the building and generally cause the building to be less desirable. The obvious solution to this problem would be to condemn the building, demolish it, and replace it with a building designed from the ground up to be safe. Thus, the building can be practical and aesthetically pleasing without needing to compromise on safety. Sadly, building owners seldom chose this solution, option instead for the ugly "retrofitting", because it saves time, and is slightly cheaper. In many cases, IT management are inclined to go the same way as landlords. "Retrofitting" an existing program, or, extending and enhancing the old program to bring it up to date with new requirements is cheaper and takes less time. Do not confuse this with the constant development of projects like FreeBSD. Commercial applications, in almost all cases, tend to stagnate in terms of development. This leads to an eventual situation where the application will begin to lag so far behind current trends that it may suddenly become unusable. The obvious solution, again, would be to throw out the application, and redesign it from the ground up to be in line with current requirements. However, in most cases, the old programs merely get code segments added on to them, usually in a fragmented way, by different developers, at different points in time, using different techniques perculiar to the time. This is what programmers call "kruft", new code layered onto older code layered onto older code layered onto older code (infinite recursion), which eventually leads to a source code base which is impossible to maintane, full of security holes, has numerious hidden bugs from "sedimentary layers" below the newer code and in many cases, running slow, unoptimized, unstable and wich does not scale well. "Krufty" applications pervade the computer industry. Instead of paying a little bit more for a new application, capable of meeting current requirements, management simply chose to stack endless layers of cruft on top of each other. Here, a fantastic case in point is Microsoft's (now finally dead) Windows 95, 98 and Me range of operating system products. The original Windows 95 GUI, sat on top of MS-DOS. The excuse provided for this was that it would allow Windows 95 to be compatible with older applications. The real reason is simple, someone was too lazy or too stingy to develop a new bootstrap loader and file system. That bootstrap loader and file system did come, in the form of Windows NT and NTFS. Microsoft presented the world with a new, more powerful file system and a Windows which effectively was in controle of the system right from boot time. Yet, inspite of this, three years later, Windows 98 was released. Still sitting atop MS-DOS, and still using the FAT file system, although it had then been extended to support 32 bit addressing, and still adding the VFAT layer above FAT32 to allow long file names. The same applies for Windows Me. Under the guise of backward compatibility, Microsoft were still storing users' data on a krufty extension of a file system first developed 15 years earlier, despite FAT having proven itself to be succeptible to data loss, corruption and all kinds of other nasty misshaps. Also, even up to Windows Me, where it has been hidden brilliantly, the same old 16 bit real mode environment still booted these systems up. Only after the GUI module started to load, did the system switch to a form of pseudo-protected mode 32 bit memory management. End of the ranting. The point I am trying to make is that the fundamental problem here is the attitude of the market. The kruft has got to go. An excellent case in point is XFree86. The version currently in mainstream use, XFree86 4, is a total, ground-up redesign of the system. Amongst the improvements is the DRI (direct rendering interface) system, which allows X and MESA to render directly to a 3D accelerator. Several attempts were made at interfacing XFree86 3 with 3D accelerators, these will all be remembered as resounding failures, barring a few little known projects still under development or which did work, but only with some hardware. With the arrival of the redesigned XFree86 4, problems interfacing with new hardware and employing new techniques that had plagued XFree86 3, simply dissapeared over night. XFree86 3 had expired, and inspite of many years of faithful service to the UNIX community, seeing it go, replaced by a newer, more up to date, much better system, was a joyous day for me. In short, the longer time period, and in commercial applications, slightly higher cost of throwing out old, obsolete software, and replacing it with software designed from the outset to do what is needed, is well worth it. Sadly, old hat management seldom seem to see it that way, so the kruft will be around as long as the computer, just as retrofitted buildings will be around to spoil the skylines of great cities for centuries to come. Will From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 4 13:30:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46A0E16A4CE for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:30:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso01.liwest.at (lilzmailso01.liwest.at [212.33.55.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84D443D31 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:30:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso01.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1Az0Pk-0000wp-LY; Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:29:56 +0100 From: Daniela To: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , Vulpes Velox Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:23:24 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <20040304102125.6c49612b@vixen42.> <404787A3.5080600@daleco.biz> In-Reply-To: <404787A3.5080600@daleco.biz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403042223.24547.dgw@liwest.at> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 21:30:05 -0000 On Thursday 04 March 2004 19:46, Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > Vulpes Velox wrote: > >On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:04:51 +0000 > > > >Daniela wrote: > >> o better compatibility > >> > >>I asked a lot of people what keeps them from dumping Windoze. The > >>main reason for not switching is that they fear having to throw out > >>their existing data and apps with it. > > > >Sorta find it odd to expect the exact same program to work, and wine > >is a pain to work with, but what could be useful is something that > >points to programs that provide similar features or whatever to what > >they where using on windows... > > That's a good point, but we still don't > have genuine data compatibility. I mean, > we can open a *.doc, *.rtf, *.wmv, *.ppt, etc., > as long as we've had a month or three to check > out the latest version of whatever M$ has done > to break the old format. I see two barriers: > standardization and economic pragmatism. > > We need to try and convince the world that > _standards_ should be adhered to, and > that applications should write data to files > that are platform/application independent > rather than proprietary. (And probably, > we need to convince them that we adhere > to the standards while the 'industry leader' > doesn't ... we all know it's true, but nobody > complains about this loudly in the public > square. And it's probably only the Open > Source community that really cares about > standards.... > > When you have to have a converter for a > Windows(R) "Notepad"* file, somebody's not > playing ball with the rest of the world. > I think we all know who that is.... :-( > > As far as apps go, people just tend to > be very pragmatic. Once they've learned > a way to work, they prefer to _do_ work, rather > than learn another way to do the same thing. > > For the public to want/need us on their > desktops, we need to be more _practical_ to > use than any other system. Better price? > Absolutely :-) Better support? Doubt it. We have > very talented people, but less of them, and less $$ > to waste on phone banks. Better stability? > 99 && 44/100% yes. Better reputation? > dunno...ours may be 'better', but theirs is 'bigger.' > Better learning curve? This is where 'tools, not > policy' hurts us. Don't get me wrong, I love this > paradigm, but Joe and Sally User just want to be > told what to click when, not to "RTFM" and think > for themselves. And to compound the problem, > sys admins know these facts as well, and many of > them are walking testimonies to what I've said; > and we've got to convert them as well.... Better learning curve? I'd say that we should build our user interfaces on top of the existing, well-tested, stable software. Let's take my most recent work as an example: a graphical firewall configuration tool. It lets the user build a ruleset for ipfw. You can specify the IP address, port number, whatever, as in the CLI. On top of that, there are several options like "Use Network Address Translation" or "Make stealth firewall" or "Let common ICMP messages through". These options translate into data that can also be entered in the lower layer. And on top of that, there are several presets to choose from. For example, "Standalone desktop", which is the default, selects options to make a stealth firewall and let all outgoing packets through. "Server setup" selects NAT and prompts for the ports that should be open. Then everything translates into ipfw rules. What I'm trying to say is that the traditional UNIX philosophy is still appropriate today. I love that onion approach, and use it in all my apps. My personal opinion is, the biggest problem is people not wanting to think for themselves. If you can just do what you are being told, you are not free. But people don't care for their freedom, they want to sit in their golden cage, not doing any work, but also not being able to do what they like. If it continues like this, I can see a future coming where a handful people rule the world and control every aspect of our lives. But they don't care, as long as they can leave their brains switched off and let someone else think for them. > I see very few reasons why IT guys shouldn't have > offices full of users with Gnome or KDE on > FreeBSD, but the reasons that are there are giants.... > > Maybe we need to convince IBM they need an > total OS, not just a kernel ... ;-) > > Kevin Kinsey > DaleCo, S.P. > > *"Come, sir, I think you picked a poor example...^M > Did I?^M" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 4 13:46:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A373816A4CE for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso01.liwest.at (lilzmailso01.liwest.at [212.33.55.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2897B43D1F for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:46:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso01.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1Az0fv-0001Cw-Hz; Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:46:39 +0100 From: Daniela To: "Willie Viljoen" , "Jeremy C. Reed" , Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:40:55 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403041804.51038.dgw@liwest.at> <022b01c4022a$e14edb20$0a00a8c0@arista> In-Reply-To: <022b01c4022a$e14edb20$0a00a8c0@arista> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403042240.55248.dgw@liwest.at> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 21:46:47 -0000 On Thursday 04 March 2004 20:54, Willie Viljoen wrote: [snip] > What really needs to happen is that old hat software developers need to > catch up with the times. Developing cross platform software that will work > on many UNIX platforms, and on Windows, even Macintosh, without major code > rewriting or great cost has long been possible. Developers mostly just > ignore this possibility because they generally refuse to change to newer > ways of developing software, which involve designing applications, from the > outset, to be easily portable. The only thing needed for this is the right > attitude. Cross platform applications are slower than apps that are optimized for one particular platform. I know what I'm speaking of. What are the extended features of a platform good for, when you can't use them because another platform doesn't have them? > There is an excellent case in point for development of cross platform > capable software. The ease with which the computer gaming industry can port > new titles between the traditional Windows PC platform, UNIX-based PCs and > the numerous game consoles on the market demonstrates the effectiveness of > cross platform designed software. In many cases, where the developers took > the short extra time to write a proper abstraction layer for the game, a > plug-in need only be developed for the abstraction layer that allows it to > interact with which ever API is available on the target platform. > > Large game developers these days are finding it easy to release games that > run on pretty much anything. Instead of writing the game to interact > directly with an API, it is written to interact with an abstraction layer > providing all the functionality the game requires. Then, they need only > write a "driver", interfacing the abstraction layer with each API on each > platform. For instance, a DirectX driver to work on Windows, and MESA video > driver and standard UNIX /dev/dsp output for UNIX devices. Development of > these "drivers" is extremely quick. While it takes slightly longer to > develop an extensive abstraction layer, the reward, being able to port > effortlessly to any platform, greatly off-sets the cost and time usage for > development of the abstraction layer. That would be exactly the right thing to do. > Developers of other applications can learn from this case and develop their > software to be easily portable, sadly, most executives still don't see it > that way, feeling that it is better to write software to interact directly > with which ever platform, thus in doing so, saving a small amount of time > and money and inadvertently helping Microsoft hold on to their PC monopoly. > Until that phylosophy changes, sadly, people will not move away from > Windows. > > Also, discarding old applications should never be seen as being such a bad > thing. This is also a question of having the right attitude. Applications, > by the very definition, become outdated or obsolete after a sufficient > period of time. Economic conditions may change, more data may need to be > collected, larger datasets may need to be handled. The traditional, cheap, > solution to this problem is what the enginering industry calls > "retrofitting". That's a problem with proprietary software. UNIX is a different case. The old code is well-tested and stable, there's no reason to throw it out as long as it is maintained properly. [snip] From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 4 15:15:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7358416A4D4 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 15:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1494843D39 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 15:15:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:2210) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Az23V-0001e6-4l; Thu, 04 Mar 2004 15:15:05 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 15:06:30 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id GFNWDQA5; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 15:05:15 -0800 From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 15:12:59 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <022b01c4022a$e14edb20$0a00a8c0@arista> <200403042240.55248.dgw@liwest.at> In-Reply-To: <200403042240.55248.dgw@liwest.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403041513.00003.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1Az23V-0001e6-4l*nEQ8kya0VcE* Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 23:15:23 -0000 On Thursday 04 March 2004 02:40 pm, Daniela wrote: > Cross platform applications are slower than apps that are optimized > for one particular platform. I know what I'm speaking of. What are > the extended features of a platform good for, when you can't use them > because another platform doesn't have them? Not necessarily true. You won't be able to perform any platform specific optimizations, but in general cross platform code is not any slower than platform specific code. Three examples: NetBSD, Linux kernel, Qt. Neither NetBSD nor Linux are considered "slow" by any stretch of the imagination. Qt is impresively fast, and is only called "sluggish" by biased trolls. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 4 21:21:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D3816A4CE for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:21:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso01.liwest.at (lilzmailso01.liwest.at [212.33.55.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50CAA43D39 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:21:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso01.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1Az7m1-0005vZ-7o; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 06:21:25 +0100 From: Daniela To: Johnson David , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 06:15:55 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403042240.55248.dgw@liwest.at> <200403041513.00003.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> In-Reply-To: <200403041513.00003.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 05:21:27 -0000 On Thursday 04 March 2004 23:12, Johnson David wrote: > On Thursday 04 March 2004 02:40 pm, Daniela wrote: > > Cross platform applications are slower than apps that are optimized > > for one particular platform. I know what I'm speaking of. What are > > the extended features of a platform good for, when you can't use them > > because another platform doesn't have them? > > Not necessarily true. You won't be able to perform any platform specific > optimizations, but in general cross platform code is not any slower > than platform specific code. Three examples: NetBSD, Linux kernel, Qt. > Neither NetBSD nor Linux are considered "slow" by any stretch of the > imagination. Qt is impresively fast, and is only called "sluggish" by > biased trolls. I'm not speaking of your average code, I'm speaking of high-speed assembly language programs. Daniela From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 4 22:44:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4039116A4CE for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.laserfence.net (apollo.laserfence.net [196.44.69.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04E143D48 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:44:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@unfoldings.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by apollo.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1Az941-000IXt-Td; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 08:44:06 +0200 Received: from apollo.laserfence.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (apollo.laserfence.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 67779-07; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:43:14 +0200 (SAST) Received: from [192.168.255.1] (helo=prometheus.home.laserfence.net) by apollo.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1Az939-000IXa-H1; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 08:43:12 +0200 Received: from arista.home.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.10] helo=arista) by prometheus.home.laserfence.net with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 1Az935-0009tV-00; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 08:43:07 +0200 Message-ID: <024301c4027d$283b9ee0$0a00a8c0@arista> From: "Willie Viljoen" To: "Daniela" , "Johnson David" , References: <200403042240.55248.dgw@liwest.at><200403041513.00003.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:43:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at laserfence.net Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 06:44:19 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniela" To: "Johnson David" ; Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 8:15 AM Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted > On Thursday 04 March 2004 23:12, Johnson David wrote: > > On Thursday 04 March 2004 02:40 pm, Daniela wrote: > > > Cross platform applications are slower than apps that are optimized > > > for one particular platform. I know what I'm speaking of. What are > > > the extended features of a platform good for, when you can't use them > > > because another platform doesn't have them? > > > > Not necessarily true. You won't be able to perform any platform specific > > optimizations, but in general cross platform code is not any slower > > than platform specific code. Three examples: NetBSD, Linux kernel, Qt. > > Neither NetBSD nor Linux are considered "slow" by any stretch of the > > imagination. Qt is impresively fast, and is only called "sluggish" by > > biased trolls. > > I'm not speaking of your average code, I'm speaking of high-speed assembly > language programs. > True, assembly language, you will generally find, differs for each seperate platform. This presents a unique hurdle to cross platform development, but it is not one that cannot be overcome. Again, my favourite new jargon term, the abstraction layer, can come in to help us get around this problem. The first step in getting to an environment where every application works with almost every computer is to begin designing the ultimate abstraction layer for your program. Yes, you will have to move away from assembly, to something slightly less low level, but C would be more than sufficient. Better yet, if you take the time to make your code ANSI C compliant, you've already crossed one hurdle, any recent C compiler on any platform should now be able to compile your code. Next, you want to look at all the different optimizations available for each platform. The trick here is to identify similarities between extensions on each platform. Now, writing your abstraction layer, in each of your drivers, you want to make full use of the extensions in each platform, also, you want to write compatibility "kludges" for every single feature you use. In this way, you can write the program to talk to the abstraction layer only. Then, your abstraction layer can be written to take full advantage of an extension if it is present, or kludge around it if it isn't. Furthermore, your application can be seperately compiled on each platform. The possibility has long existed to compile code selectively, even conditionally compiling only certain parts of individual files. Compiling on each platform in this way will only use extensions native to that platform. The program will only talk to its abstraction layer and won't notice the difference. The abstraction layer will be compiled with optimizations for each platform. As all C compilers do not actually compile into machine language, but generate an assembly dump which is then optimized and compiled to machine code, this will get you as close as you can be to rewriting the program in assembly for each platform. What you will end up with is a program that can move almost effortlessly between platforms, without sacrificing on performance or the use of features. If you want a good case in point here, you need only look at NetBSD, which runs on more platforms than any other operating system, and can not be accused of being slow or unoptimized. A good demonstration of writing code in this way can also be found in the Linux kernel. When compiling Linux, the target platform is one of the first choices you face. When an appropriate platform is selected, conditional compiling builds the kernel in such a way that all available extensions for that platform are made use of. Writing applications to do the same is not that hard, and the payoff is better integration and compatibility for everyone. Will From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 05:51:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 625F316A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 05:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1EB43D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 05:51:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i25DpQUA079836; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:51:26 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i25DpMCe079830; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:51:22 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:51:22 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Daniela In-Reply-To: <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> Message-ID: <20040305155015.Y38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <200403041513.00003.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:51:45 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Daniela wrote: > On Thursday 04 March 2004 23:12, Johnson David wrote: > > On Thursday 04 March 2004 02:40 pm, Daniela wrote: > > > Cross platform applications are slower than apps that are optimized > > > for one particular platform. I know what I'm speaking of. What are > > > the extended features of a platform good for, when you can't use them > > > because another platform doesn't have them? > > > > Not necessarily true. You won't be able to perform any platform specific > > optimizations, but in general cross platform code is not any slower > > than platform specific code. Three examples: NetBSD, Linux kernel, Qt. > > Neither NetBSD nor Linux are considered "slow" by any stretch of the > > imagination. Qt is impresively fast, and is only called "sluggish" by > > biased trolls. > > I'm not speaking of your average code, I'm speaking of high-speed assembly > language programs. > and how many millions of lines of that have you written and maintained? Are you sure it would not be faster if it was re-written in C and compiled ? > Daniela > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 07:16:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9C516A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:16:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A2443D2F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:16:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzH4K-0000P3-TI; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:16:57 +0100 From: Daniela To: "Willie Viljoen" , "Johnson David" , Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:11:31 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> <024301c4027d$283b9ee0$0a00a8c0@arista> In-Reply-To: <024301c4027d$283b9ee0$0a00a8c0@arista> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403051611.31477.dgw@liwest.at> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 15:17:00 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 06:43, Willie Viljoen wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniela" > To: "Johnson David" ; > > Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 8:15 AM > Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted > > > On Thursday 04 March 2004 23:12, Johnson David wrote: > > > On Thursday 04 March 2004 02:40 pm, Daniela wrote: > > > > Cross platform applications are slower than apps that are optimized > > > > for one particular platform. I know what I'm speaking of. What are > > > > the extended features of a platform good for, when you can't use them > > > > because another platform doesn't have them? > > > > > > Not necessarily true. You won't be able to perform any platform > > > specific optimizations, but in general cross platform code is not any > > > slower than platform specific code. Three examples: NetBSD, Linux > > > kernel, Qt. Neither NetBSD nor Linux are considered "slow" by any > > > stretch of the imagination. Qt is impresively fast, and is only called > > > "sluggish" by biased trolls. > > > > I'm not speaking of your average code, I'm speaking of high-speed > > assembly language programs. > > True, assembly language, you will generally find, differs for each seperate > platform. This presents a unique hurdle to cross platform development, but > it is not one that cannot be overcome. Again, my favourite new jargon term, > the abstraction layer, can come in to help us get around this problem. > > The first step in getting to an environment where every application works > with almost every computer is to begin designing the ultimate abstraction > layer for your program. Yes, you will have to move away from assembly, to > something slightly less low level, but C would be more than sufficient. > Better yet, if you take the time to make your code ANSI C compliant, you've > already crossed one hurdle, any recent C compiler on any platform should > now be able to compile your code. > > Next, you want to look at all the different optimizations available for > each platform. The trick here is to identify similarities between > extensions on each platform. Now, writing your abstraction layer, in each > of your drivers, you want to make full use of the extensions in each > platform, also, you want to write compatibility "kludges" for every single > feature you use. In this way, you can write the program to talk to the > abstraction layer only. Then, your abstraction layer can be written to take > full advantage of an extension if it is present, or kludge around it if it > isn't. > > Furthermore, your application can be seperately compiled on each platform. > The possibility has long existed to compile code selectively, even > conditionally compiling only certain parts of individual files. Compiling > on each platform in this way will only use extensions native to that > platform. The program will only talk to its abstraction layer and won't > notice the difference. The abstraction layer will be compiled with > optimizations for each platform. As all C compilers do not actually compile > into machine language, but generate an assembly dump which is then > optimized and compiled to machine code, this will get you as close as you > can be to rewriting the program in assembly for each platform. > > What you will end up with is a program that can move almost effortlessly > between platforms, without sacrificing on performance or the use of > features. If you want a good case in point here, you need only look at > NetBSD, which runs on more platforms than any other operating system, and > can not be accused of being slow or unoptimized. A good demonstration of > writing code in this way can also be found in the Linux kernel. When > compiling Linux, the target platform is one of the first choices you face. > When an appropriate platform is selected, conditional compiling builds the > kernel in such a way that all available extensions for that platform are > made use of. > > Writing applications to do the same is not that hard, and the payoff is > better integration and compatibility for everyone. That's exactly what I like to do, except that I do the low-level thing, and let other people write the high-level stuff that talks to my abstraction layer. Sometimes I even write a user interface myself, but only when I have time. I hate the idea of being locked into using one particular interface, so I also want my users to have the choice. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 07:57:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E79616A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6B843D31 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:57:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id C4AD6530E; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:57:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 0CBB9530A; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:57:46 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 8F77B33CA3; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:57:46 +0100 (CET) To: "Jeremy C. Reed" References: From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:57:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Jeremy C. Reed's message of "Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:56:14 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 15:57:53 -0000 "Jeremy C. Reed" writes: > Does XFree86 4.4 include comprehensive Monitor databases (like > hwdata-knoppix) and automatically use the correct VertRefresh and > HorizSync for your monitor? Modern monitors (since about 1997) have DDC which allows XFree86 to get that information straight from the horse's mouth. Works great in my experience, except for some laptops which don't report the LCD panel geometry correctly (Latitude D800 comes to mind). > Does XFree86 4.4 configuration automatically include the best (common) > resolutions and modes? The only real problem I've had is that XFree86 doesn't always pick the highest vertical refresh frequency supported by the monitor. That should be easy to fix. For all I know, it might already be fixed in 4.4 - I still run 4.3, and when I run into this I just add a bogus VertRefresh line claiming that the monitor doesn't support anything below 75 Hz. > Beginners don't want to manually edit their XF86Config. (Defaulting to > depth 8 and the common 640x480 is not good enough.) have you actually tried 'X -configure'? DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 10:01:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E10B16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:01:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso01.liwest.at (lilzmailso01.liwest.at [212.33.55.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C2143D2D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:01:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso01.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzJd5-0006PJ-Vz; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 19:01:00 +0100 From: Daniela To: Narvi Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:55:35 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> <20040305155015.Y38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> In-Reply-To: <20040305155015.Y38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:01:02 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 13:51, Narvi wrote: > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Daniela wrote: > > On Thursday 04 March 2004 23:12, Johnson David wrote: > > > On Thursday 04 March 2004 02:40 pm, Daniela wrote: > > > > Cross platform applications are slower than apps that are optimized > > > > for one particular platform. I know what I'm speaking of. What are > > > > the extended features of a platform good for, when you can't use them > > > > because another platform doesn't have them? > > > > > > Not necessarily true. You won't be able to perform any platform > > > specific optimizations, but in general cross platform code is not any > > > slower than platform specific code. Three examples: NetBSD, Linux > > > kernel, Qt. Neither NetBSD nor Linux are considered "slow" by any > > > stretch of the imagination. Qt is impresively fast, and is only called > > > "sluggish" by biased trolls. > > > > I'm not speaking of your average code, I'm speaking of high-speed > > assembly language programs. > > and how many millions of lines of that have you written and maintained? > Are you sure it would not be faster if it was re-written in C and compiled > ? It would be faster to write and maintain (at least for most people), but it would not run faster. C is fine for projects other than fast, small libraries. I also like shellscript, but only if speed and size are not critical. I have not even written a million code lines yet, as I'm only 16 years old and have one and a half year of programming experience. But I love that low-level stuff so much that I already think in ASM. I did not intend to troll around or start another holy war, I was just expressing my opinion. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 10:01:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A5A16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:01:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015FC43D3F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:01:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1AzJdX-0005sp-00; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:01:27 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:01:27 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: autoconfiguring X (was Re: FreeBSD Most wanted) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:01:36 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Dag-Erling [iso-8859-1] Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > "Jeremy C. Reed" writes: > > Does XFree86 4.4 include comprehensive Monitor databases (like > > hwdata-knoppix) and automatically use the correct VertRefresh and > > HorizSync for your monitor? > > Modern monitors (since about 1997) have DDC which allows XFree86 to > get that information straight from the horse's mouth. Works great in > my experience, except for some laptops which don't report the LCD > panel geometry correctly (Latitude D800 comes to mind). I will have to look closer at the DDC specification. I don't recall it giving this vertical refresh and horizontal sync information. If it did, I'd wonder why kudzu (and anaconda and others) using ddc and ddcprobe also use a MonitorsDB database that defines the vertical refresh and horizontal sync information. Maybe some monitors do give the information and some don't. I think I found answer .... mentioned below. It would be good if official XFree86 would provide this database and auto configure this too. > > Does XFree86 4.4 configuration automatically include the best (common) > > resolutions and modes? > > The only real problem I've had is that XFree86 doesn't always pick the > highest vertical refresh frequency supported by the monitor. That > should be easy to fix. I am wondering how this is an easy fix. > For all I know, it might already be fixed in > 4.4 - I still run 4.3, and when I run into this I just add a bogus > VertRefresh line claiming that the monitor doesn't support anything > below 75 Hz. In the many times that I have used "XFree86 -configure" it seems like I always have to manually set the VertRefresh and HorizSync. The text-based xf86config never auto-detects that. Now I see that XFree86 4.2.0 (not changed in 4.3.0 or 4.4.0) xfree/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/xf86cfg/TODO (2001/07/04) says: o Write code to use a Monitors database, either update the old Monitors file or use RedHat MonitorsDB. Chris Morgan is writting code to use MonitorsDB. If xf86cfg could be changed to ddcprobe (in all supported platforms), it would be even be a better solution than using a database. So I guess that means that ddcprobe can provide the information. It just is not done yet. I do see some 4.4.0 code (like xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/drivers/via/via_driver.c) that does set the ranges. But I don't see any code that actually defines VertRefresh or HorizSync from probed settings. xf86printMonitorSection() in parser/Monitor.c does output information (but I think that is manually set). I have also looked at getconfig a little, but don't see any comprehensive .cfg files included. > > Beginners don't want to manually edit their XF86Config. (Defaulting to > > depth 8 and the common 640x480 is not good enough.) > > have you actually tried 'X -configure'? Yes, many times. As a consultant and as an instructor teaching on a wide variety of systems, I have had the opportunity to use "XFree86 -configure" on maybe a hundred different systems this past couple years. It is not perfect and not as good as using the kudzu (or similar methods). I have a lot to learn about X, but I have spent some time with its code. I packaged X for pkgsrc (my personal collection) so I could use under Linux. I also am a maintainer for pkgsrc's official XFree86 packages. And I am a part-time xlibs developer (but haven't started with their "server" code yet.) Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 10:10:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC4ED16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-67-117-158-73.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [67.117.158.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB54D43D31 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:10:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by snafu.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 91E1A9EEE8; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:10:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snafu.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 636F19B148 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:10:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:10:35 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Hoskins To: advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040305155015.Y38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> Message-ID: <20040305100536.N64460@snafu.adept.org> References: <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> <20040305155015.Y38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:10:50 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Narvi wrote: > > I'm not speaking of your average code, I'm speaking of high-speed assembly > > language programs. > and how many millions of lines of that have you written and maintained? > Are you sure it would not be faster if it was re-written in C and compiled > ? i think we've wondered off the path, wherever that was to begin with. there are times and places for everything, including platform-specific asm. surely we don't have to get into an argument over something that obvious, or over something like "usefulness of portable code" -- for that please refer to CS101 at your closest univsersity. (actually, that's a bit hopeful. the art of writing portable code is often not taught at all, but painfully learned.) i just think you both have points, and are speaking past each other. 'how many millions of lines of that have you written...' is no more proof or disproof of related statements than how many millions of lines of asm you've ported to C, compiled, and performance tested. with or without that experience, most people with a little experience can point out pros and cons of both approaches. -m From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 10:11:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C29B16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC8143D41 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:11:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:2028) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AzJn9-0006Eu-4H; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:11:23 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:02:46 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id GFNW1FZV; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:01:35 -0800 From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:09:20 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <200403041513.00003.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> In-Reply-To: <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1AzJn9-0006Eu-4H*VY4F0cma95.* Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:11:44 -0000 On Thursday 04 March 2004 10:15 pm, Daniela wrote: > I'm not speaking of your average code, I'm speaking of high-speed > assembly language programs. Looking back on this thread, I confirmed my memory that it was somewhat on topic with the applications that keep people from dumping Windows. When I look around at what people are using on Windows here at work, I don't see any high-speed requirements. Intead I see Word, PowerPoint, Outlook, etc. These don't need the incremental speed increase that hand coded assembly gives you. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 10:36:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD89E16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:36:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-67-117-158-73.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [67.117.158.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F6B43D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:36:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by snafu.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6A17B9EEE8; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snafu.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E5D9B148 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:36:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:36:42 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Hoskins To: advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040305102744.H64460@snafu.adept.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: autoconfiguring X (was Re: FreeBSD Most wanted) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:36:57 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > I will have to look closer at the DDC specification. I don't recall it > giving this vertical refresh and horizontal sync information. as usual, there are exceptions to the rule. > If it did, I'd wonder why kudzu (and anaconda and others) using ddc and > ddcprobe also use a MonitorsDB database that defines the vertical refresh > and horizontal sync information. Maybe some monitors do give the > information and some don't. kudzu does a lot of things, so i wouldn't just use it's behavior as a shining light. however, maintaining such a DB to increase the end-user configuration ease would definately be a plus when it comes to "appealing to the desktop masses" -- which this thread seems to be about. > > The only real problem I've had is that XFree86 doesn't always pick the > > highest vertical refresh frequency supported by the monitor. That > > should be easy to fix. > I am wondering how this is an easy fix. no need to be obtuse, if you've used an opensource OS for long you already know this. it was the same way configuring slackware '94. ;) that is, read your monitor docs/manufacturer website, and set the needed variables in XF86Config yourself. you may say "that's not easy", but i'll also say it's certainly not that hard... and it's something that has to be done on many platforms. i'm not saying it can't/shouldn't improve or get better, but... really... it's not the biggest hangup that exists. you don't really even have to track down the docs, but can use a tool like xvidtune to spit out settings for your hardware. again, it's not fully automated voodoo, but it's not that hard either. > o Write code to use a Monitors database, either update the old Monitors > file or use RedHat MonitorsDB. > Chris Morgan is writting code to use MonitorsDB. > If xf86cfg could be changed to ddcprobe (in all supported platforms), > it would be even be a better solution than using a database. good, but modifying xf86cfg sounds like it should be discussed on an XF86 list. ;) > Yes, many times. As a consultant and as an instructor teaching on a wide > variety of systems, I have had the opportunity to use "XFree86 -configure" > on maybe a hundred different systems this past couple years. It is not > perfect and not as good as using the kudzu (or similar methods). i shudder every time i hear kudzu mentioned, but i guess we just have a differing train of thought. i realize you're pointing to pieces of it's functionality, and not the program in its entirety. -m From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 10:41:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B643316A4CE; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:41:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BDB43D1D; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:41:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i25IfMUA033588; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:41:22 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i25IfM8t033585; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:41:22 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:41:22 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Daniela In-Reply-To: <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> Message-ID: <20040305200825.N38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040305155015.Y38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:41:39 -0000 [only follow up to chat, please] On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Daniela wrote: > It would be faster to write and maintain (at least for most people), but it It is faster to write and maintainable (full stop). > would not run faster. C is fine for projects other than fast, small > libraries. I also like shellscript, but only if speed and size are not > critical. Whetever it would run faster or not is in *MOST* cases not even debatable - in most cases, the compiler will generate faster code. Also, when say using SSE2 for fp becomes faster than x87 fp, you can simply recompile, instead of having to re-write your code. If your asm is good, it is going to be scheduled for the processor - again, in some time there will be new processors for which fats code is scheduled differently. > I have not even written a million code lines yet, as I'm only 16 years old and > have one and a half year of programming experience. But I love that low-level > stuff so much that I already think in ASM. See, in 3 years you are probably 2x as good as you are now at understanding of how computers work, what makes something fast (or not) than now. Most of the asm code will in the process turn out to be not worth the bother, while some of C might be salvagable, esp glue. If you haven't managed to become at least 2x as good as you are now in 3 years, then i'm afraid not many people wil worry what you write code in ... > I did not intend to troll around or start another holy war, I was just > expressing my opinion. > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 10:54:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B38116A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:54:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D30F43D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:54:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i25IseUA033918; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:54:40 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i25Isegf033915; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:54:40 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:54:40 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Johnson David In-Reply-To: <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Message-ID: <20040305205357.Q38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:54:57 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Johnson David wrote: > On Thursday 04 March 2004 10:15 pm, Daniela wrote: > > > I'm not speaking of your average code, I'm speaking of high-speed > > assembly language programs. > > Looking back on this thread, I confirmed my memory that it was somewhat > on topic with the applications that keep people from dumping Windows. > When I look around at what people are using on Windows here at work, I > don't see any high-speed requirements. Intead I see Word, PowerPoint, > Outlook, etc. These don't need the incremental speed increase that hand > coded assembly gives you. And any replacement will be in the 'millions of lines of code' depertment and completely infeasible in asm. > > David > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 10:55:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E79A716A4D4 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:55:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F19143D39 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:55:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 8E86B530E; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:55:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 86B35530A; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:55:42 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 0F8B233CA3; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:55:42 +0100 (CET) To: "Jeremy C. Reed" References: From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 19:55:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Jeremy C. Reed's message of "Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:01:27 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: autoconfiguring X X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:55:49 -0000 "Jeremy C. Reed" writes: > I will have to look closer at the DDC specification. I don't recall it > giving this vertical refresh and horizontal sync information. Yes, it does. I have a Compaq V70 here (manufactured 1997-20) with DDC1 support, EDID version 1.1; XFree86 correctly detects (and logs) the supported frequency ranges. > In the many times that I have used "XFree86 -configure" it seems like I > always have to manually set the VertRefresh and HorizSync. I've never had that problem. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 10:58:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2AB16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244E743D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:58:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:1847) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AzKVs-0006gz-4y; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 10:57:36 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:48:03 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id GFNW1HB4; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:46:47 -0800 From: Johnson David To: Daniela Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:54:33 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <20040305155015.Y38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> In-Reply-To: <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403051054.33146.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1AzKVs-0006gz-4y*SCK7FxoWFqc* cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:58:01 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 10:55 am, Daniela wrote: > I have not even written a million code lines yet, as I'm only 16 > years old and have one and a half year of programming experience. But > I love that low-level stuff so much that I already think in ASM. > I did not intend to troll around or start another holy war, I was > just expressing my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But one should always let other people know that it is an opinion, and not state it as a firm conclusion that will brook no argument. In an earlier post you said: "I know what I'm speaking of". Now it turns out that you are only sixteen, only been programming for one and a half years, and don't really know what you are speaking of. While a year and a half of study and practice will give you a lot of programming knowledge, it only gives you a paltry year and a half of experience. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 12:18:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0ABE16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:18:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6587C43D1F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:18:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1AzLlo-000623-00; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 12:18:08 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:18:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Subject: Re: autoconfiguring X X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:18:15 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Dag-Erling [iso-8859-1] Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > I will have to look closer at the DDC specification. I don't recall it > > giving this vertical refresh and horizontal sync information. > > Yes, it does. I have a Compaq V70 here (manufactured 1997-20) with > DDC1 support, EDID version 1.1; XFree86 correctly detects (and logs) > the supported frequency ranges. That is great and convenient that it works for you. > > In the many times that I have used "XFree86 -configure" it seems like I > > always have to manually set the VertRefresh and HorizSync. > > I've never had that problem. The MonitorsDB file from hwdata-knoppix-0.95 has 3456 entries for various Monitors to give that horiz sync and vertical refresh information. At first, I thought it was an indication that 3456 monitors didn't give information, but I see it also lists your monitor: Compaq; Compaq V70 Color Monitor; cpq170a; 30.0-69.0; 50-125.0; 1 The workstation I am sitting at has a TRL 100f monitor as detected by XFree86. The FCC ID shows it is from Royal Information Electronic's Company. I had to manually set the VertRefresh and HorizSync. The MonitorsDB (which I don't use yet under *BSD) has 7 TRL/RIC entries, but not mine. My goal for this is not only for this FreeBSD "advocacy" discussion, but that I have built custom NetBSD Live CDs for a couple years that I want to have instant X configuration wherever it is used. (With older XFree86 3.x, my CD provided four different XF86Config files for 1280x1024, 1024x768, 800x600, and 640x480 VESA standards.) Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 12:31:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90C416A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.pccwbtn.com (mx.pccwbtn.com [63.216.0.99]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1016D43D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:31:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbrown@btnaccess.com) Received: from willow.webcoves.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.pccwbtn.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i25KVXxp091981; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:31:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mbrown@btnaccess.com) From: Marina Brown Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: Johnson David Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:32:45 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> In-Reply-To: <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200403051532.45095.> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:31:36 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 01:09 pm, Johnson David wrote: > On Thursday 04 March 2004 10:15 pm, Daniela wrote: > > I'm not speaking of your average code, I'm speaking of high-speed > > assembly language programs. > > Looking back on this thread, I confirmed my memory that it was somewhat > on topic with the applications that keep people from dumping Windows. > When I look around at what people are using on Windows here at work, I > don't see any high-speed requirements. Intead I see Word, PowerPoint, > Outlook, etc. These don't need the incremental speed increase that hand > coded assembly gives you. > IF you want to have more people using FreeBSD - i think the way to do tha= t is not to seek to have more windows like applications - but to try to edu= cate=20 people in using open source programs. It takes some time to get someone who is used to mcdonalds food to enjoy=20 a fine curry. Marina > David > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.= org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 12:46:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210E716A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from amsfep14-int.chello.nl (amsfep14-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D83C43D31 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:46:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([213.46.139.145]) by amsfep14-int.chello.nl ESMTP <20040305204628.JHAR28932.amsfep14-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:46:28 +0100 Message-ID: <4048E66C.4050109@sitetronics.com> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:43:24 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marina Brown References: <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <200403051532.45095.> In-Reply-To: <200403051532.45095.> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:46:33 -0000 Marina Brown wrote: >On Friday 05 March 2004 01:09 pm, Johnson David wrote: > > >>On Thursday 04 March 2004 10:15 pm, Daniela wrote: >> >> >>>I'm not speaking of your average code, I'm speaking of high-speed >>>assembly language programs. >>> >>> >>Looking back on this thread, I confirmed my memory that it was somewhat >>on topic with the applications that keep people from dumping Windows. >>When I look around at what people are using on Windows here at work, I >>don't see any high-speed requirements. Intead I see Word, PowerPoint, >>Outlook, etc. These don't need the incremental speed increase that hand >>coded assembly gives you. >> >> >> > >IF you want to have more people using FreeBSD - i think the way to do that >is not to seek to have more windows like applications - but to try to educate >people in using open source programs. > >It takes some time to get someone who is used to mcdonalds food to enjoy >a fine curry. > >Marina > > I disagree. If you want more people using FreeBSD, you will need to either offer or outsource commercial support and find hardware vendors who ship it as the default operating system. This may require some of the above, but it is the final requirement. And the OOo suite works (almost) just as well as Office. Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 13:23:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C676D16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6597C43D1F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:23:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzMms-0006rV-UL; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:23:19 +0100 From: Daniela To: Johnson David Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:17:56 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> <200403051054.33146.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> In-Reply-To: <200403051054.33146.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403052217.56455.dgw@liwest.at> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:23:20 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 18:54, Johnson David wrote: > On Friday 05 March 2004 10:55 am, Daniela wrote: > > I have not even written a million code lines yet, as I'm only 16 > > years old and have one and a half year of programming experience. But > > I love that low-level stuff so much that I already think in ASM. > > I did not intend to troll around or start another holy war, I was > > just expressing my opinion. > > Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But one should always let other > people know that it is an opinion, and not state it as a firm > conclusion that will brook no argument. > > In an earlier post you said: "I know what I'm speaking of". Now it turns > out that you are only sixteen, only been programming for one and a half > years, and don't really know what you are speaking of. While a year and > a half of study and practice will give you a lot of programming > knowledge, it only gives you a paltry year and a half of experience. I do have the knowledge of optimization because I jumped right in. I never wrote "hello world" programs or all the other stuff beginning programmers normally write. I know that it makes little sense to optimize parts of a program that are not computationally expensive, and I know that C or other high-level languages *can* incur a lot of overhead. It depends on the program, of course. I know it is true that, while I may have a great knowledge, I simply lack the experience in some areas. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 13:31:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E996216A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:31:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso01.liwest.at (lilzmailso01.liwest.at [212.33.55.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFEB43D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:31:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso01.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzMuz-0001bm-RO; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:31:42 +0100 From: Daniela To: Johnson David , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:26:19 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> In-Reply-To: <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403052226.19659.dgw@liwest.at> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:31:43 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 18:09, Johnson David wrote: > On Thursday 04 March 2004 10:15 pm, Daniela wrote: > > I'm not speaking of your average code, I'm speaking of high-speed > > assembly language programs. > > Looking back on this thread, I confirmed my memory that it was somewhat > on topic with the applications that keep people from dumping Windows. > When I look around at what people are using on Windows here at work, I > don't see any high-speed requirements. Intead I see Word, PowerPoint, > Outlook, etc. These don't need the incremental speed increase that hand > coded assembly gives you. IMHO more speed can never harm. I see that a lot of people nowadays are fiddling around with video and graphics processing, DVD ripping and the like. These are areas where optimization is critical, because if two programs deliver equal quality, professionals will always choose the one that is much faster than the other. Newbies will of course go with the easier solution, but user interfaces are not what I care about, because I only make the high-speed libraries and let someone else do the UI. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 13:39:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C262B16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:39:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-relay-7.sea.adobe.com (smtp-relay-7.adobe.com [192.150.22.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B1A43D2F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:39:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rolnif@mac.com) Received: from inner-relay-3.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-3 [153.32.251.51]) i25LdcSP020276 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:39:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from calsj-dev (calsj-dev.corp.adobe.com [153.32.1.193]) i25Ldckq007494 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:39:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.8.54.213] (at-54-213.corp.adobe.com [10.8.54.213]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HU40067KHI2SK@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:39:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:39:41 -0800 From: John Martinez In-reply-to: <200403052226.19659.dgw@liwest.at> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <200403052226.19659.dgw@liwest.at> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:39:40 -0000 On Mar 5, 2004, at 2:26 PM, Daniela wrote: > I see that a lot of people nowadays are fiddling around with video and > graphics processing, DVD ripping and the like. Oh, you're talking about everything I use Mac OS X for. Things like iTunes, Final Cut, Photoshop and the like? I love FreeBSD, but the applications it runs need a little catching up to do if it wants to compete with its cousin. On that sort of desktop, anyway. -john From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 13:43:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E9016A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:43:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from snootles.jimz.net (snootles.jimz.net [69.55.224.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A3CD543D1F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:43:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim@jimz.net) Received: (qmail 83340 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2004 21:43:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?141.211.183.93?) (jamesez@141.211.183.93) by snootles.jimz.net with (RC4-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 5 Mar 2004 21:43:48 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) In-Reply-To: <200403052226.19659.dgw@liwest.at> References: <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <200403052226.19659.dgw@liwest.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <2EAEEFC4-6EEE-11D8-AE09-000A95DA58FE@jimz.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Zajkowski Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:43:47 -0500 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on snootles.jimz.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:43:56 -0000 On Mar 5, 2004, at 5:26 PM, Daniela wrote: > These are areas where optimization is critical, because if two > programs deliver equal quality, professionals will always choose the > one that is much faster than the other. Almost always, substantial speed gains in e.g. MPEG compression come from algorithmic advances and not by switching to assembly. Professionals also prefer tools that work the way they do, which is why most professional tools have steep learning curves -- because they're made to be efficient, not accessible. Final Cut Pro, Photoshop, and even UNIX have difficult interfaces for beginners but efficient interfaces for seasoned users. Word, on the other hand, has a difficult interface for everyone. --Jim -- Jim Zajkowski OpenPGP 0x21135C3 http://www.jimz.net/pgp.asc System Administrator 8A9E 1DDF 944D 83C3 AEAB 8F74 8697 A823 2113 5C53 UM Life Sciences Institute From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 13:53:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5B516A4CE; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A53143D1D; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:53:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzNFb-0007Kd-9o; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:52:59 +0100 From: Daniela To: Narvi Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:47:37 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> <20040305200825.N38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> In-Reply-To: <20040305200825.N38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403052247.37202.dgw@liwest.at> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:53:01 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 18:41, Narvi wrote: > [only follow up to chat, please] > > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Daniela wrote: > > It would be faster to write and maintain (at least for most people), but > > it > > It is faster to write and maintainable (full stop). > > > would not run faster. C is fine for projects other than fast, small > > libraries. I also like shellscript, but only if speed and size are not > > critical. > > Whetever it would run faster or not is in *MOST* cases not even debatable > - in most cases, the compiler will generate faster code. Also, when say > using SSE2 for fp becomes faster than x87 fp, you can simply recompile, > instead of having to re-write your code. If your asm is good, it is going > to be scheduled for the processor - again, in some time there will be new > processors for which fats code is scheduled differently. I know, by experience, that my code is always much faster than the compiler-generated code. > > I have not even written a million code lines yet, as I'm only 16 years > > old and have one and a half year of programming experience. But I love > > that low-level stuff so much that I already think in ASM. > > See, in 3 years you are probably 2x as good as you are now at > understanding of how computers work, what makes something fast (or not) > than now. Most of the asm code will in the process turn out to be not > worth the bother, while some of C might be salvagable, esp glue. I hope that I will soon understand computers better, as that's after all one of my main reasons for participating in such discussions. At least I have the will to learn something. Of course, I don't bother optimizing code where I will not be able to get a great improvement. But I'm only a hobby programmer now, so most of the time I don't even bother writing programs that can't be optimized well. I also like C and shellscript and Lisp and numerous other scripting languages very much, and sometimes I even write software that the user actually interacts with, but I simply like ASM optimization best. I also love Intercal, but I don't write real software in it. Intercal is just for fun, and ASM is just for optimization (and device drivers). From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 13:59:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E327016A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:59:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7D2A43D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:59:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:2741) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AzNLK-0003kV-3S; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:58:54 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:50:18 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id GFNW1LLW; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:49:03 -0800 From: Johnson David To: Daniela Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:56:48 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <200403052226.19659.dgw@liwest.at> In-Reply-To: <200403052226.19659.dgw@liwest.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403051356.48991.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1AzNLK-0003kV-3S*4sHW9ccyUfQ* cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:59:14 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 02:26 pm, Daniela wrote: > IMHO more speed can never harm. This is where knowledge and experience disagree with each other. It is the age old conflict between "theory" and "practice". > I see that a lot of people nowadays are fiddling around with video > and graphics processing, DVD ripping and the like. And I'm personally fiddling around with realtime medical diagnostic imaging. Vastly more important than DVD ripping! Experience has told us that there are more important things than speed. One is maintainability of the code. High level languages are easier to maintain than assembler. Another is time to market. Code that takes a week to write in C/C++ might take a month or two in assembler. Finally there is portability! That's because your code will live on longer than you expect it to. If its assembler code, I guarantee you that it will live on longer than the chip its written for... David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 14:07:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7661916A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso01.liwest.at (lilzmailso01.liwest.at [212.33.55.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D49943D2F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:07:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso01.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzNU1-0002BB-Pv; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:07:54 +0100 From: Daniela To: Jim Zajkowski , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 23:02:31 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403052226.19659.dgw@liwest.at> <2EAEEFC4-6EEE-11D8-AE09-000A95DA58FE@jimz.net> In-Reply-To: <2EAEEFC4-6EEE-11D8-AE09-000A95DA58FE@jimz.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403052302.31896.dgw@liwest.at> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:07:55 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 21:43, Jim Zajkowski wrote: > On Mar 5, 2004, at 5:26 PM, Daniela wrote: > > These are areas where optimization is critical, because if two > > programs deliver equal quality, professionals will always choose the > > one that is much faster than the other. > > Almost always, substantial speed gains in e.g. MPEG compression come > from algorithmic advances and not by switching to assembly. I know. I love to do all kind of optimization, including algorithm improvements. But I'm so into low-level programming, that it's (sometimes) easier for me to code in ASM than in C. > Professionals also prefer tools that work the way they do, which is why > most professional tools have steep learning curves -- because they're > made to be efficient, not accessible. Final Cut Pro, Photoshop, and > even UNIX have difficult interfaces for beginners but efficient > interfaces for seasoned users. Word, on the other hand, has a > difficult interface for everyone. Yes, that's true. While I would not yet call myself a seasoned user, I think shell navigation is more efficient than that graphical stuff, but newbies disagree with me. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 14:17:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E22316A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:17:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from snootles.jimz.net (snootles.jimz.net [69.55.224.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 319D143D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:17:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim@jimz.net) Received: (qmail 54641 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2004 22:17:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?141.211.183.93?) (jamesez@141.211.183.93) by snootles.jimz.net with (RC4-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 5 Mar 2004 22:17:42 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) In-Reply-To: <200403052302.31896.dgw@liwest.at> References: <200403052226.19659.dgw@liwest.at> <2EAEEFC4-6EEE-11D8-AE09-000A95DA58FE@jimz.net> <200403052302.31896.dgw@liwest.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Zajkowski Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:17:40 -0500 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on snootles.jimz.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:17:44 -0000 On Mar 5, 2004, at 6:02 PM, Daniela wrote: > But I'm so into low-level programming, that it's (sometimes) easier > for me to code in ASM than in C. Like I said, may you have a long and successful career in writing device drivers and firmware. --Jim -- Jim Zajkowski OpenPGP 0x21135C3 http://www.jimz.net/pgp.asc System Administrator 8A9E 1DDF 944D 83C3 AEAB 8F74 8697 A823 2113 5C53 UM Life Sciences Institute From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 14:18:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78EE316A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2847543D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:18:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1AzNdr-00069n-00; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:18:03 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:18:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: John Martinez In-Reply-To: <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:18:06 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, John Martinez wrote: > Oh, you're talking about everything I use Mac OS X for. Things like > iTunes, Final Cut, Photoshop and the like? > > I love FreeBSD, but the applications it runs need a little catching up > to do if it wants to compete with its cousin. On that sort of desktop, > anyway. How much did iTunes, Final Cut, and Photoshop cost? Maybe if those who pay for this software sent funds to open source developers, equivalents can be improved. I have used Photoshop in the past for basic tasks and I have found Gimp to perform as well as I need. I have heard good things about iTunes and Final Cut, but have not used. What open source software are their closest alternatives? Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 14:27:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6185F16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:27:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2829C43D3F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:27:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzNml-0007wP-3t; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:27:15 +0100 From: Daniela To: Johnson David Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 23:21:53 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403052226.19659.dgw@liwest.at> <200403051356.48991.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> In-Reply-To: <200403051356.48991.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403052321.53187.dgw@liwest.at> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:27:16 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 21:56, Johnson David wrote: > On Friday 05 March 2004 02:26 pm, Daniela wrote: > > IMHO more speed can never harm. > > This is where knowledge and experience disagree with each other. It is > the age old conflict between "theory" and "practice". > > > I see that a lot of people nowadays are fiddling around with video > > and graphics processing, DVD ripping and the like. > > And I'm personally fiddling around with realtime medical diagnostic > imaging. Vastly more important than DVD ripping! Experience has told us > that there are more important things than speed. One is maintainability > of the code. High level languages are easier to maintain than > assembler. Another is time to market. Code that takes a week to write > in C/C++ might take a month or two in assembler. Finally there is > portability! That's because your code will live on longer than you > expect it to. If its assembler code, I guarantee you that it will live > on longer than the chip its written for... Some programming languages are better for fast code, and others are better for easily maintainable code. For some projects speed is most important, and for others the time to market and maintainability is the biggest issue. Some programs are internal, only maintained by one person and run on only one computer (or network), while others are maintained by a big staff and are released to the public. Some people can best write very fast code, and others write highly maintainable code. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 14:41:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DCB716A4CE; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:41:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19D3143D2F; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:41:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 3B4BA530E; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 23:41:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 28A97530A; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 23:41:17 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 0D03333CA4; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 23:41:17 +0100 (CET) To: Daniela References: <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> <20040305200825.N38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <200403052247.37202.dgw@liwest.at> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:41:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200403052247.37202.dgw@liwest.at> (dgw@liwest.at's message of "Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:47:37 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:41:22 -0000 Daniela writes: > I know, by experience, that my code is always much faster than the > compiler-generated code. *rotfl* seriously, grow up. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 14:57:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054DD16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53DAE43D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:57:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i25MutUA037648; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 00:56:55 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i25MutuK037645; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 00:56:55 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 00:56:55 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Jeremy C. Reed" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040306002808.V38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:57:12 -0000 > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, John Martinez wrote: > > > Oh, you're talking about everything I use Mac OS X for. Things like > > iTunes, Final Cut, Photoshop and the like? > > > > I love FreeBSD, but the applications it runs need a little catching up > > to do if it wants to compete with its cousin. On that sort of desktop, > > anyway. > > How much did iTunes, Final Cut, and Photoshop cost? > Lets take Photoshop - Photoshop is a maturte market so a great deal of its users are upgrading from previous versions of photoshop. which usualy means that the extra features in version N+1 are worth the money outlay. They are thus probably in most cases unlikely to want GIMP. You might convince people who would get photoshop elements to do what you propose though. > Maybe if those who pay for this software sent funds to open source > developers, equivalents can be improved. > But a non-trivial amount of them would go broke - or at least be finnacialy less well off - because they really needed the next photoshop version and not GIMP. > I have used Photoshop in the past for basic tasks and I have found Gimp to > perform as well as I need. > Sure, for basics you could even do a large stripdown of GIMP. > I have heard good things about iTunes and Final Cut, but have not used. > What open source software are their closest alternatives? > I don't think there is one - or even anything close - for final cut. > Jeremy C. Reed > http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 15:23:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 346CB16A4CE; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:23:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F370143D2D; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:22:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzOeg-00007S-5U; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 00:22:58 +0100 From: Daniela To: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 00:17:36 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403052247.37202.dgw@liwest.at> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403060017.36820.dgw@liwest.at> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:23:00 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 22:41, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Daniela writes: > > I know, by experience, that my code is always much faster than the > > compiler-generated code. > > *rotfl* > > seriously, grow up. This wasn't meant as a generalization, I only wanted to say that every time= I=20 tried it so far, my code was faster. Sorry if this is misleading. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 16:49:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23B916A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:49:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D22843D1F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:49:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040306004941.YXJE12901.lakemtao07.cox.net@vixen42>; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:49:41 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:46:50 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: John Martinez Message-Id: <20040305164650.2de84cad@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> References: <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <200403052226.19659.dgw@liwest.at> <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 00:49:43 -0000 On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:39:41 -0800 John Martinez wrote: > > On Mar 5, 2004, at 2:26 PM, Daniela wrote: > > > I see that a lot of people nowadays are fiddling around with video > > and graphics processing, DVD ripping and the like. > > Oh, you're talking about everything I use Mac OS X for. Things like > iTunes, Final Cut, Photoshop and the like? > > I love FreeBSD, but the applications it runs need a little catching > up to do if it wants to compete with its cousin. On that sort of > desktop, anyway. LOL, for home use... not really... For video, avidemux2 handles simple tasks very nicely... When it comes to DVD ripping, it hard beat mplayer and the like... Or if you want something simpler there is dvdrip... For images there is gimp-devel and cinepaint, both work nicely for home use... I honestly can't think of any advantages, other than apparent commercial support... For itunes? what part do you want? exporting? well we can do that far bloody better... nfs, smb, and then there is some awesome streaming stuff some where too, forget where... The part where it begins to fall apart is in the area organizing and cataloging... that still requires a bit of manual intervention when it comes to moving stuff... For audio ripping, there is grip... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 17:30:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A7416A4DE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9117643D39 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:30:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:4170) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AzQdz-0005o9-40; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 17:30:23 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:21:47 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id GFNW1Q1G; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:20:35 -0800 From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:28:21 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> <20040305164650.2de84cad@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: <20040305164650.2de84cad@vixen42.> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403051728.21133.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1AzQdz-0005o9-40*QhCBpfIHIYI* cc: Vulpes Velox Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:30:43 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 02:46 pm, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > I love FreeBSD, but the applications it runs need a little catching > > up to do if it wants to compete with its cousin. On that sort of > > desktop, anyway. > > LOL, for home use... not really... Time to insert a plug for KDE. While FreeBSD is not ready for home use due to system administration stuff, the desktop is ready. Now before people start jumping all over me, please note that I distinguish systems administration tasks from desktop tasks. For the former you still need to know how to use a command line editor. For the latter we're already there. Juk is comparable to iTunes. It's not identical to iTunes, especially in the "pay to download" department, but for your typical user it's more than adequate. Ripping audio is as simple as dragging ogg and mp3 files out of the CD directory. Drag them right on to Juk if you want! This is easier than Windows by a long shot. I've had a Windows user's jaw hit the floor when he saw that. There is no reason we have to hang our heads in shame whenever the Windows or Mac desktops are mentioned. While FreeBSD can't do everything the other guy can, don't forget that the other guy can't do everything FreeBSD with KDE/GNOME can. Remember, 99% of the users never use 99% of the functionality of an application. We dont' need CYMK photo prepress functionality in GIMP before it's usable in the home! Cheers, David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 17:47:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A540516A4CF for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-relay-7.sea.adobe.com (smtp-relay-7.adobe.com [192.150.22.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 777AD43D3F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:47:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rolnif@mac.com) Received: from inner-relay-1.corp.adobe.com (inner-relay-1 [153.32.1.51]) i261lUSP004375 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from calsj-dev (mailsj [153.32.1.239])i261lT3k014760 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:47:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.8.54.213] (at-54-213.corp.adobe.com [10.8.54.213]) by mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HU400CGGSZ5NC@mailsj-v1.corp.adobe.com> for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 17:47:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 17:47:33 -0800 From: John Martinez In-reply-to: <200403051728.21133.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: <3CA9695E-6F10-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> <200403051728.21133.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:47:32 -0000 On Mar 5, 2004, at 5:28 PM, Johnson David wrote: > ...There is no reason we have to hang our heads in shame whenever the > Windows or Mac desktops are mentioned. While FreeBSD can't do > everything the other guy can, don't forget that the other guy can't do > everything FreeBSD with KDE/GNOME can. I wasn't trying to bash FreeBSD at all. I think it's a great operating system. Heck, the reason I even went Mac OS X was because of its BSD foundation. I still think that FreeBSD and most of the UNIX and UNIX-like desktops need a little more work to make them equal to the commercially available applications on the Mac. IMO, Apple has done a great job of bringing BSD to the masses, and the user will never even have to know that there is a command line underneath it all. My family members use Macs and they don't know a think about UNIX. Now if FreeBSD could do that... -john From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 18:01:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65D5316A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:01:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E931D43D2D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:01:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from daleco.biz ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:01:22 -0600 Message-ID: <404930D9.1010207@daleco.biz> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:00:57 -0600 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johnson David References: <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> <20040305164650.2de84cad@vixen42.> <200403051728.21133.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> In-Reply-To: <200403051728.21133.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2004 02:01:23.0109 (UTC) FILETIME=[ECDDFD50:01C4031E] cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Vulpes Velox Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 02:01:02 -0000 Johnson David wrote: >On Friday 05 March 2004 02:46 pm, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > > >>>I love FreeBSD, but the applications it runs need a little catching >>>up to do if it wants to compete with its cousin. On that sort of >>>desktop, anyway. >>> >>> >>LOL, for home use... not really... >> >> > >Time to insert a plug for KDE. While FreeBSD is not ready for home use >due to system administration stuff, the desktop is ready. Now before >people start jumping all over me, please note that I distinguish >systems administration tasks from desktop tasks. For the former you >still need to know how to use a command line editor. For the latter >we're already there. > >Juk is comparable to iTunes. It's not identical to iTunes, especially in >the "pay to download" department, but for your typical user it's more >than adequate. Ripping audio is as simple as dragging ogg and mp3 files >out of the CD directory. Drag them right on to Juk if you want! This is >easier than Windows by a long shot. I've had a Windows user's jaw hit >the floor when he saw that. > >There is no reason we have to hang our heads in shame whenever the >Windows or Mac desktops are mentioned. While FreeBSD can't do >everything the other guy can, don't forget that the other guy can't do >everything FreeBSD with KDE/GNOME can. > >Remember, 99% of the users never use 99% of the functionality of an >application. We dont' need CYMK photo prepress functionality in GIMP >before it's usable in the home! > >Cheers, > >David > > I'll try to say more than just "me too." If, in 199x someone had showed me what's on my desktop right now, I'd have learned it just as easily, I think. I can configure GNOME to be easily as pointy/clicky as Windows. The rest is simply differences in enforced policy. Windows 95 was probably quite a bit more of a PITA than anything I'm running on UNIX today; plus, this box just doesn't crash... Does the "awe factor" have anything to do with this? I think I could have some real killer app on a good looking desktop, but some people just wouldn't give it a look unless it cost me a couple $K .... compare certain sports cars to a homeade dragster ... Porsche might look better, but the funny car will blow its doors off; what's under the hood is what counts. As for GIMP vs. Photoshop, I can't say I'm that competent with either. And Windows Media Player made a mistake IMHO by making the actual filesystem "disappear" in favor of a different interface and "root" locale.... While we're on the subject ... how about multitrack audio recording and mixing? If I could replace CakeWalk 9 on my aging win98/475 that'd be *very* kewl.... Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 18:01:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4691C16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D36243D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:01:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from daleco.biz ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:02:10 -0600 Message-ID: <4049310A.1090902@daleco.biz> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:01:46 -0600 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Martinez References: <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> <200403051728.21133.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <3CA9695E-6F10-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <3CA9695E-6F10-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2004 02:02:11.0187 (UTC) FILETIME=[09861C30:01C4031F] cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 02:01:49 -0000 John Martinez wrote: > > On Mar 5, 2004, at 5:28 PM, Johnson David wrote: > >> ...There is no reason we have to hang our heads in shame whenever the >> Windows or Mac desktops are mentioned. While FreeBSD can't do >> everything the other guy can, don't forget that the other guy can't do >> everything FreeBSD with KDE/GNOME can. > > > I wasn't trying to bash FreeBSD at all. I think it's a great operating > system. Heck, the reason I even went Mac OS X was because of its BSD > foundation. > > I still think that FreeBSD and most of the UNIX and UNIX-like desktops > need a little more work to make them equal to the commercially > available applications on the Mac. IMO, Apple has done a great job of > bringing BSD to the masses, and the user will never even have to know > that there is a command line underneath it all. My family members use > Macs and they don't know a think about UNIX. Now if FreeBSD could do > that... > > -john > > Give 'em Apple's budget, and I bet it would happen ;-) Kevin Kinsey From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 18:19:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3292E16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:19:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48C343D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:19:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040306021956.ZMUH12901.lakemtao07.cox.net@vixen42>; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:19:56 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:17:05 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: Johnson David Message-Id: <20040305181705.7be10da8@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: <200403051728.21133.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> References: <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> <20040305164650.2de84cad@vixen42.> <200403051728.21133.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 02:19:59 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:28:21 -0800 Johnson David wrote: > On Friday 05 March 2004 02:46 pm, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > > > I love FreeBSD, but the applications it runs need a little > > > catching up to do if it wants to compete with its cousin. On > > > that sort of desktop, anyway. > > > > LOL, for home use... not really... > > Time to insert a plug for KDE. While FreeBSD is not ready for home > use due to system administration stuff, the desktop is ready. Si, a few small programs few small programs for tweaking some things would be useful... best provided as port thought... something a front end for tweaking some of the sysctl variables, would be useful. > Juk is comparable to iTunes. It's not identical to iTunes, > especially in the "pay to download" department, but for your typical > user it's more than adequate. Ripping audio is as simple as dragging > ogg and mp3 files out of the CD directory. Drag them right on to Juk > if you want! This is easier than Windows by a long shot. I've had a > Windows user's jaw hit the floor when he saw that. > > There is no reason we have to hang our heads in shame whenever the > Windows or Mac desktops are mentioned. While FreeBSD can't do > everything the other guy can, don't forget that the other guy can't > do everything FreeBSD with KDE/GNOME can. /me personally wishes ppl would stop focusing on those two when it comes to desktops and write apps that work nicely outside of them as well as with them... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 18:27:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D879316A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:27:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CD1E43D1F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:27:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from xeon (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A242E3D31; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:27:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:27:01 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@xeon.unixathome.org To: John Martinez In-Reply-To: <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> Message-ID: <20040305212605.E10220@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 02:27:03 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, John Martinez wrote: > I love FreeBSD, but the applications it runs need a little catching up > to do if it wants to compete with its cousin. On that sort of desktop, > anyway. What cousin are you referring to? Linux? Give us a few examples of missing applications please. -- Dan Langille - BSDCan: http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 18:46:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A034A16A4D1 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:46:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from tatiana.utanet.at (tatiana.utanet.at [213.90.36.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B6143D39 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 18:46:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from josef@daemon.li) Received: from patricia.utanet.at ([213.90.36.8]) by tatiana.utanet.at with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AzRq5-0001sL-00; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 03:46:57 +0100 Received: from dsl-241-19.utaonline.at ([212.152.241.19] helo=jenny.daemon.li) by patricia.utanet.at with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AzRq5-0001Vo-00; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 03:46:57 +0100 Received: by jenny.daemon.li (Postfix, from userid 1005) id A07E65C1; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 03:46:57 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 03:46:57 +0100 From: Josef El-Rayes To: Daniela Message-ID: <20040306024657.GE377@jenny.daemon.li> References: <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> <200403051054.33146.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <200403052217.56455.dgw@liwest.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UBnjLfzoMQYIXCvq" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403052217.56455.dgw@liwest.at> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.9-STABLE cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 02:46:59 -0000 --UBnjLfzoMQYIXCvq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daniela wrote: > I know that it makes little sense to optimize parts of a=20 > program that are not computationally expensive, and I know that C or othe= r=20 > high-level languages *can* incur a lot of overhead. algorithms > asm i respect your asm love, but i have to tell you that writing other stuff th= an cpu specifics is just ineffictive. it is errorprone, takes a lot of more ti= me and it is machine dependent. there is absolutely no reason to write code in asm for normal applications. and after all, best optimisation is good algorithms. asm does not help you when you have bad O() in your algorithm. > I know it is true that, while I may have a great knowledge, I simply lack= the=20 > experience in some areas. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ you would write in another way if you had *cough* great knowledge (sorry..) greets, josef ps: this should not be on advocacy really. --=20 Josef El-Rayes (__) Email: josef@daemon.li \\\'',)=20 Web: http://daemon.li/ \/ \ ^ FreeBSD: josef@FreeBSD.org .\._/_) --UBnjLfzoMQYIXCvq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iQEVAwUBQEk7oVnFItmnnbU8AQKhWQgAglx3LRCggGRwRHk0nTwq6U1BtTds9cbW zLlRS0sbK0xkl1NFNV5vCMSm8lM+n3m0yeqeP8a2sabGB9Hg7ZZmmayhQjCG+Iiz wWnimgJs8/Ju7ieUhyjZI4kvA3b7qcVmssGkzUjY+yzoxXalyUhoknBAzBEU+COB G1aTdwKZwz129kgp1JPEVxLD2Ai/9MVcB8p2d3ZboMmKx6r9B5OtrHlLbljtGYBD UMJr9TBrispvDDFuANtAAdNRfhRYdZwJ25El+4ntMdZUXpbBh5ZY2GodJFPeTZRL doZ5w/hXPpIQ755plxua84ErZ3aZtsIYc1yhg3RbW6uABgr4NCzJHg== =Fdv+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UBnjLfzoMQYIXCvq-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 19:26:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA2F16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:26:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-67-117-158-73.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [67.117.158.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118A343D2D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:26:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by snafu.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9B0C59EEE8; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snafu.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 679E49B148 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:26:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:26:43 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Hoskins To: advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040305164650.2de84cad@vixen42.> Message-ID: <20040305190804.H65624@snafu.adept.org> References: <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> <20040305164650.2de84cad@vixen42.> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: open source challenges (was Re: FreeBSD Most wanted) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 03:26:59 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Vulpes Velox wrote: > For itunes? what part do you want? exporting? well we can do that far > bloody better... nfs, smb, and then there is some awesome streaming as a closet musician, i wish there was a good fbsd audio solution. there's not, really, and that's no fault of fbsd's. (because there aren't good one's - imco - for linux either, which has much more commercial buy-in at this point.) assuming you actually get your high-end audio card recognized (mine aren't even supported), you either don't find the tools you need (because there's no real incentive to develop them for free) or you find tools which mostly work, but produce sub-standard output quality. (that's even a problem with many windoze-based solutions costing $$$.) again, that's absolutely nothing against fbsd... i don't even consider itunes a "real" audio package. (only audio newbies would, imco.) this all has very little to do with fbsd, related advocacy, etc. and more to do with open source as a whole. i'm sure more open source apps will come down the road over time, but acting like certain areas aren't lacking seems pointless. so what's the end result? it's not that i decide to write my own audio solution and device drivers for fbsd (wish i had the time), but instead i use different tools for different tasks. when i want a server or workstation, i use fbsd. when i want to create audio, i turn to windoze or macos. not because i love using those operating systems, but because when i do use them i'm in a mood to create audio/video and not spend five hours tweeking OS settings just to get sub-standard output. that's a challenge open source faces in many areas... it's not just about developing tools, but developing tools that actually make people go "yeah, i'd rather use that". -m From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 19:44:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C2A016A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:44:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E2243D1F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:44:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from daleco.biz ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:45:06 -0600 Message-ID: <4049492A.3030809@daleco.biz> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:44:42 -0600 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Langille References: <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> <20040305212605.E10220@xeon.unixathome.org> In-Reply-To: <20040305212605.E10220@xeon.unixathome.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2004 03:45:07.0421 (UTC) FILETIME=[6AD8A0D0:01C4032D] cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 03:44:46 -0000 Dan Langille wrote: >On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, John Martinez wrote: > > > >>I love FreeBSD, but the applications it runs need a little catching up >>to do if it wants to compete with its cousin. On that sort of desktop, >>anyway. >> >> > >What cousin are you referring to? Linux? Give us a few examples of >missing applications please. > > > He was refering to Mac OsX ... see a few posts back in this thread. KDK From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 21:48:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDDF316A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:48:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao05.cox.net (lakemtao05.cox.net [68.1.17.116]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 488A543D1F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:48:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao05.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040306054851.KAV24099.lakemtao05.cox.net@vixen42>; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 00:48:51 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:45:58 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: Dan Langille Message-Id: <20040305214558.03b4d877@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: <20040305212605.E10220@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <200403051009.20729.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> <20040305212605.E10220@xeon.unixathome.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 05:48:54 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:27:01 -0500 (EST) Dan Langille wrote: > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, John Martinez wrote: > > > I love FreeBSD, but the applications it runs need a little > > catching up to do if it wants to compete with its cousin. On that > > sort of desktop, anyway. > > What cousin are you referring to? Linux? Give us a few examples of > missing applications please. The only two thinks I can think of is something along the lines of video4linux... but once the new huapage drivers make it into the base, I think that will really help... There is also a effort going on to get something like v4l on FBSD, I forget link thought... It would take a bit of work, but getting Cinelerra working would be nice... toyed with it a bit under under linux emu, but had sound problem and don't remember the performance being to impressive... Probally should give it a whirl agian, since it has been a awhile now since I last tried it... The only real play that needs improvement if a bit of video afaik... BTW while on this topic, has any one ever seen small embedable boards with decent graphics, has firewire, and is not badly designed(badly designed meaning requires atx ot at ps connector... such things remove all embedability...) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 02:33:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11F5E16A4CE; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFAB43D45; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:33:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzZ7r-0000Bf-R1; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 11:33:48 +0100 From: Daniela To: Josef El-Rayes Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:28:32 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403052217.56455.dgw@liwest.at> <20040306024657.GE377@jenny.daemon.li> In-Reply-To: <20040306024657.GE377@jenny.daemon.li> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403061128.32256.dgw@liwest.at> cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 10:33:49 -0000 On Saturday 06 March 2004 02:46, Josef El-Rayes wrote: > Daniela wrote: > > I know that it makes little sense to optimize parts of a > > program that are not computationally expensive, and I know that C or > > other high-level languages *can* incur a lot of overhead. > > algorithms > asm > > i respect your asm love, but i have to tell you that writing other stuff > than cpu specifics is just ineffictive. it is errorprone, takes a lot of > more time and it is machine dependent. > there is absolutely no reason to write code > in asm for normal applications. > and after all, best optimisation is good algorithms. asm does not help > you when you have bad O() in your algorithm. > > > I know it is true that, while I may have a great knowledge, I simply lack > > the experience in some areas. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > you would write in another way if you had *cough* great knowledge (sorry..) I mean, my knowledge is great with respect to my age. Or do you know many 16-year-olds with my knowledge? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 02:39:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2940E16A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8CD943D31 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:39:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzZDp-0000Mj-9o; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 11:39:57 +0100 From: Daniela To: Mike Hoskins , advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:34:41 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <20040305164650.2de84cad@vixen42.> <20040305190804.H65624@snafu.adept.org> In-Reply-To: <20040305190804.H65624@snafu.adept.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403061134.41588.dgw@liwest.at> Subject: Re: open source challenges (was Re: FreeBSD Most wanted) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 10:39:59 -0000 On Saturday 06 March 2004 03:26, Mike Hoskins wrote: > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > For itunes? what part do you want? exporting? well we can do that far > > bloody better... nfs, smb, and then there is some awesome streaming > > as a closet musician, i wish there was a good fbsd audio solution. > there's not, really, and that's no fault of fbsd's. (because there aren't > good one's - imco - for linux either, which has much more commercial > buy-in at this point.) assuming you actually get your high-end audio card > recognized (mine aren't even supported), you either don't find the tools > you need (because there's no real incentive to develop them for free) or > you find tools which mostly work, but produce sub-standard output quality. > (that's even a problem with many windoze-based solutions costing $$$.) Yeah, good point, I fully agree with you. But have you tried ecasound? I love it for audio processing, and it's very extensible. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 02:41:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D71116A4CE; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from svbcf02.win.tue.nl (svbcf02.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F04AA43D1D; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:41:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mriem@win.tue.nl) Received: from SENSEI (dyn-099235.nbw.tue.nl [131.155.99.235]) by svbcf02.win.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2296D8C07; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:41:00 +0100 (MET) From: "Manfred Riem" To: "'Daniela'" , "'Josef El-Rayes'" , Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:40:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <200403061128.32256.dgw@liwest.at> Thread-Index: AcQDZi2c8/ooxtLzSmC0qncrgNAV7QAANnoQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-Id: <20040306104100.2296D8C07@svbcf02.win.tue.nl> cc: 'Johnson David' cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 10:41:01 -0000 > On Saturday 06 March 2004 02:46, Josef El-Rayes wrote: > > Daniela wrote: > > > I know that it makes little sense to optimize parts of a > > > program that are not computationally expensive, and I > know that C or > > > other high-level languages *can* incur a lot of overhead. > > > > algorithms > asm > > > > i respect your asm love, but i have to tell you that > writing other stuff > > than cpu specifics is just ineffictive. it is errorprone, > takes a lot of > > more time and it is machine dependent. > > there is absolutely no reason to write code > > in asm for normal applications. > > and after all, best optimisation is good algorithms. asm > does not help > > you when you have bad O() in your algorithm. > > > > > I know it is true that, while I may have a great > knowledge, I simply lack > > > the experience in some areas. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > you would write in another way if you had *cough* great > knowledge (sorry..) > > I mean, my knowledge is great with respect to my age. Or do > you know many > 16-year-olds with my knowledge? Whether or not your knowledge is better than other 16 year olds is not an issue here. Chatting on advocacy about this stuff is. Please be so kind to move this to freebsd-chat@freebsd.org ;) Regards, Manfred Riem mriem@win.tue.nl http://www.riaca.win.tue.nl/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 02:48:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2340D16A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso01.liwest.at (lilzmailso01.liwest.at [212.33.55.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E365843D1D for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:48:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso01.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzZLv-0003oI-4q; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 11:48:19 +0100 From: Daniela To: Dan Langille , John Martinez Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:43:03 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> <20040305212605.E10220@xeon.unixathome.org> In-Reply-To: <20040305212605.E10220@xeon.unixathome.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403061143.03528.dgw@liwest.at> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 10:48:27 -0000 On Saturday 06 March 2004 02:27, Dan Langille wrote: > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, John Martinez wrote: > > I love FreeBSD, but the applications it runs need a little catching up > > to do if it wants to compete with its cousin. On that sort of desktop, > > anyway. > > What cousin are you referring to? Linux? Give us a few examples of > missing applications please. I'm missing import functionality for most 3D scene file formats. I would need that badly. But other than that, FreeBSD is so good that I'm willing to accept this, and create everything myself instead of just downloading. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 02:50:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B10E16A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso01.liwest.at (lilzmailso01.liwest.at [212.33.55.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9DC43D2D for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:50:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso01.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzZNs-0003tt-SX; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 11:50:21 +0100 From: Daniela To: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , Johnson David Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:45:05 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403051728.21133.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <404930D9.1010207@daleco.biz> In-Reply-To: <404930D9.1010207@daleco.biz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403061145.05515.dgw@liwest.at> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 10:50:23 -0000 On Saturday 06 March 2004 02:00, Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > While we're on the subject ... how about multitrack > audio recording and mixing? If I could replace > CakeWalk 9 on my aging win98/475 that'd be *very* > kewl.... I use ecasoud for every non-interactive audio processing task, and audacity for graphical audio processing. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 07:23:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E195916A4CF; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:23:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A91743D39; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:23:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (neutrino.centtech.com [10.177.171.220]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i25FNfE8001455; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:23:41 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <40489B55.1060407@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:23:01 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040205 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200403041513.00003.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> <20040305155015.Y38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> In-Reply-To: <20040305155015.Y38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 04:44:32 -0800 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 15:23:43 -0000 Narvi wrote: [..snip snip snippety snip..] >>I'm not speaking of your average code, I'm speaking of high-speed assembly >>language programs. >> > > > and how many millions of lines of that have you written and maintained? > Are you sure it would not be faster if it was re-written in C and compiled > ? I started this thread for more as a list of features FreeBSD needs in order to gain additional user base - I think it has successfully dribbled into -chat worthy commentary, so let's move it off advocacy please? Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Sr. Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday. ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 05:07:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0270116A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 05:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C356643D49 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 05:07:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 67ACA5312; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:07:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 6B9A4530E; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:07:28 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 4CEED33CA4; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:07:28 +0100 (CET) To: "Jeremy C. Reed" References: From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 14:07:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Jeremy C. Reed's message of "Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:18:08 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: autoconfiguring X X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 13:07:36 -0000 "Jeremy C. Reed" writes: > At first, I thought it was an indication that 3456 monitors didn't give > information, but I see it also lists your monitor: > > Compaq; Compaq V70 Color Monitor; cpq170a; 30.0-69.0; 50-125.0; 1 heh :) that's incorrect, vertical range is 50-150. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 05:12:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C6FA16A4CE; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 05:12:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB82643D31; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 05:12:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id B4B78530E; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:12:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id BB56E530A; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:12:22 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id A29FA33CA4; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:12:22 +0100 (CET) To: Daniela References: <200403052217.56455.dgw@liwest.at> <20040306024657.GE377@jenny.daemon.li> <200403061128.32256.dgw@liwest.at> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 14:12:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200403061128.32256.dgw@liwest.at> (dgw@liwest.at's message of "Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:28:32 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: Johnson David cc: Josef El-Rayes cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 13:12:29 -0000 Daniela writes: > I mean, my knowledge is great with respect to my age. Or do you know many > 16-year-olds with my knowledge? No, but I do know a few who know better. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 08:57:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8032F16A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 08:57:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from amsfep20-int.chello.nl (amsfep12-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6995343D2D for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 08:57:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([213.46.139.145]) by amsfep20-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.6.00.05.02 201-2115-109-103-20031105) with ESMTP id <20040306165716.DOAK690.amsfep20-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 17:57:16 +0100 Message-ID: <404A023E.3060803@sitetronics.com> Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:54:22 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniela References: <9C6E1232-6EED-11D8-9CD3-000A959A1868@mac.com> <20040305212605.E10220@xeon.unixathome.org> <200403061143.03528.dgw@liwest.at> In-Reply-To: <200403061143.03528.dgw@liwest.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 16:57:21 -0000 Daniela wrote: >On Saturday 06 March 2004 02:27, Dan Langille wrote: > > >>On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, John Martinez wrote: >> >> >>>I love FreeBSD, but the applications it runs need a little catching up >>>to do if it wants to compete with its cousin. On that sort of desktop, >>>anyway. >>> >>> >>What cousin are you referring to? Linux? Give us a few examples of >>missing applications please. >> >> > >I'm missing import functionality for most 3D scene file formats. I would need >that badly. But other than that, FreeBSD is so good that I'm willing to >accept this, and create everything myself instead of just downloading. > > >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > Take this off -advocacy. It's no longer relevant. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 13:10:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91F1216A4CF for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:10:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F8643D41 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:10:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (gnats@localhost [127.0.0.1]) i26LAHbv044655 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:10:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i26LAHja044654; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:10:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gnats) Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:10:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Message-Id: <200403062110.i26LAHja044654@freefall.freebsd.org> Resent-From: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org (GNATS Filer) Resent-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Resent-Reply-To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org, "Christopher R. Bowman" Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32B1F16A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:05:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.freebsd.org (www.freebsd.org [216.136.204.117]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A6B843D1F for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:05:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nobody@FreeBSD.org) Received: from www.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.freebsd.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i26L5Z72072926 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:05:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nobody@www.freebsd.org) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by www.freebsd.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i26L5ZO4072924; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:05:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nobody) Message-Id: <200403062105.i26L5ZO4072924@www.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:05:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Christopher R. Bowman" To: freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org X-Send-Pr-Version: www-2.3 Subject: advocacy/63854: PR-web page loses text X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 21:10:17 -0000 >Number: 63854 >Category: advocacy >Synopsis: PR-web page loses text >Confidential: no >Severity: critical >Priority: high >Responsible: freebsd-advocacy >State: open >Quarter: >Keywords: >Date-Required: >Class: sw-bug >Submitter-Id: current-users >Arrival-Date: Sat Mar 06 13:10:17 PST 2004 >Closed-Date: >Last-Modified: >Originator: Christopher R. Bowman >Release: Not Applicable >Organization: >Environment: Not Applicable >Description: I type in a long PR into the web page including text from the console which I have no ability to reproduce except manually. I mistype the anti-robot code at the bottom of the form and submit. I get an error saying that the code was wrong, and go back and resubmit only all my text is gone. Can the error web page please be a copy of the sibmission with an error message at the top and all the text submitted and a new code? >How-To-Repeat: >Fix: >Release-Note: >Audit-Trail: >Unformatted: From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 15:44:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49C9316A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:44:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9E743D1D for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:44:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19627; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 16:43:48 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040306164253.06115c08@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 16:43:50 -0700 To: des@des.no (Dag-Erling Smørgrav), Daniela From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: References: <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> <20040305200825.N38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <200403052247.37202.dgw@liwest.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:44:02 -0000 At 03:41 PM 3/5/2004, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >Daniela writes: >> I know, by experience, that my code is always much faster than the >> compiler-generated code. > >*rotfl* > >seriously, grow up. Don't laugh at him. GCC produces such a tangled mess that he is almost certainly correct. I still do a lot of assembler in my embedded work. 10-100x the speed of anything else. --Brett