From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 00:08:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F4616A4CE; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:08:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B91943D39; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:08:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smckay@internode.on.net) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp190-27.lns1.bne1.internode.on.net [150.101.190.27])i2S88bwn067194; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:38:37 +0930 (CST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.12.8p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2S88aJ7016011; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:08:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200403280808.i2S88aJ7016011@dungeon.home> To: arch@freebsd.org References: <20040325070120.GA67497@VARK.homeunix.com> <1a9c01c41359$b3da45e0$7890a8c0@dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: from Garance A Drosihn at "Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:13:45 +0000" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:08:36 +1000 From: Stephen McKay cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" cc: Stephen McKay cc: Garance A Drosihn cc: Albert Cahalan Subject: Re: posix ps (was Re: Adding `pgrep' and `pkill' to /usr/bin) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:08:41 -0000 On Saturday, 27th March 2004, Garance A Drosihn wrote: >>$ PERSONALITY=freebsd ps -? > >Secondly, I personally am not fond of commands which COMPLETELY >change their behavior based on environment variables. Different >options, different formats, different rules. Unifying ps on all Unices (including FreeBSD) is an excellent idea, and I fully support this. Using an environment variable (no matter what name is used) to switch between radically different personalities is an appalling idea. No script can depend on the output of ps thereafter. If multiple personalities is a desirable trait (and it's not clear that it is) then command line switches and aliases are the correct mechanisms to use. Stephen. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 00:14:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD55C16A4CE; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 106ED43D31; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:14:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i2S8E7kj070548; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 01:14:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 01:14:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040328.011418.89945505.imp@bsdimp.com> To: nik@freebsd.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20040327085537.GC33016@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20040327085537.GC33016@clan.nothing-going-on.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where should devctl notifications be sent from? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:14:09 -0000 In message: <20040327085537.GC33016@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Nik Clayton writes: : The specific problem I'm trying to solve involves an iPod connected : through firewire. I'd like to be able to have devd be notified when the : iPod arrives, so that various processes can kick off automatically. In : an ideal world, I'll drop the iPod in the dock, and some backup : processes start, thereby allowing me to justify the purchase of a model : several sizes larger than I actually need :-) : : It looks like there are several places where the devctl_queue_data() and : related calls could be placed: : : firewire(4) -- when the device is plugged in : fwohci(4) -- when the interface arrives : sbp(4) -- when it's recognised as a mass storage device These are all inapprorpiate. The devctl_queue_data is already called from the bus level for these device. Either there is a driver, in which case a driver added is called, or there isn't, in which case the no driver routine is called. : geom(4) -- when geom creates the device (/dev/da2 (and da2s2) in my : case). Robert Watson has a patch that implements this. These patches need some more work. We need to get closure on how to do notifications in different name spaces and Robert and I are working on that. This is likely the most appropriate place to deal in the short term, however. : devfs -- specifically, in make_dev(9) and destroy_dev(9) This is clearly wrong. devd will soon grow the ability to do actions based on files appearing in a directory tree. Since /dev is a directory tree, that will be a more appropriate way of dealing. devd does not know about dev_t things from the devctl interface, nor should it in my opinion. However, the tree stuff should be sufficiently general to do what you need (and may obviate the need for robert's patches, since geom name space is a subset of dev by convention). : The limited research that I've done suggests that the most generic place : to put this code is inside make_dev(9) and destroy_dev(9). But this : seems so trivial that I can't believe no one else hasn't done the work, : so I figure there's probably something important that I'm missing. That's because most people have been able to make the device (as opposed to the /dev entry) added work. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 01:41:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4173416A4CE for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 01:41:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from phantom.cris.net (phantom.cris.net [212.110.130.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ACC343D1D for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 01:41:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phantom@FreeBSD.org.ua) Received: from phantom.cris.net (phantom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phantom.cris.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2S9eqZI040452; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:40:54 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from phantom@FreeBSD.org.ua) Received: (from phantom@localhost) by phantom.cris.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i2S9eoht040451; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:40:50 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from phantom) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:40:48 +0300 From: Alexey Zelkin To: arch@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.9-STABLE i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Subject: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:41:07 -0000 hi, This weekend I have got some spare time (due to illness) and in order to get some rest from current tasks decided to pass thru old TODO file. Most interesting task got my attention was old item related to XMLification NOTES. Important advantage of this step (IMO) is to provide possibility to check dependency/conflicts of kernel configuration file to end users. Another possible advantage is great simplification of task writing GUI kernel configurator. If somebody volunteer, I'd be happy to write code related to XML handling (in case if current code not enough). Since -CURRENT now has libexpat imported (thanks Poul-Henning) I decided to give it a try. Now I have machine-independent and i386-machdep NOTES converted to XML format (described below) and wrote basic code which loads, validate XML (I have found that libexpat's support for DTD is very basic and it does not provide possibility to check if XML file completely conforms to DTD) and generate LINT which is almost same to LINT generated using current way). The only difference is order of entries, but 'sort -u' on both LINTs gives same result. At this point I would like to start some kind of discussion and listen for your ideas which features you'd like to see in application which will be handling these XMLs. I propose to have following ones: . basic validation of specific or all XML files (all NOTES files). . LINT generation for specific architecture . checking of provided kernel configuration file against NOTES a) check for missing dependencies b) check for conflicting options c) warn about obsolete options (missing in NOTES.xml) . check for missing dependencies. Not sure yet about method, but I think following way would work for us: a) generate set of kernel configuration files each containing 'required' kernel options (machine, ident, maxusers, etc) b) put one option/device and its dependencies into this file c) config/compile it. if compile fails, then assume that some dependency is missing. find missing dependency and register it into XML file. . check for missing conflicts. Not sure about this. Ideas are welcome! . PUT YOUR ENTRY HERE! According XML structure. It should look like:
Section Title Multiline section description Entry title Entry description
For example (two random entries):
Symmetric MultiProcessor (SMP) Support SMP enables building of a Symmetric MultiProcessor Kernel SMP kernel This option enables building of SMP kernel Do not inline mutex operations MUTEX_NOINLINE forces mutex operations to call functions to perform each operation rather than inlining the simple cases. This can be used to shrink the size of the kernel text segment. Note that this behavior is already implied by the INVARIANT_SUPPORT, INVARIANTS, MUTEX_PROFILING, and WITNESS options.
-- /* Alexey Zelkin && Independent Contractor */ /* phantom(at)FreeBSD.org && http://www.FreeBSD.org/java */ /* phantom(at)cris.net && http://www.FreeBSD.org.ua/ */ From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 02:53:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607CC16A4CE for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 02:53:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from web42001.mail.yahoo.com (web42001.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.169]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 51D7343D2D for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 02:53:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jpande_techinfo@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040328105352.53698.qmail@web42001.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [202.177.170.209] by web42001.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 02:53:52 PST Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 02:53:52 -0800 (PST) From: jitendra pande To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Problem with usb in FreeBSD 4.8....help!!! X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 10:53:52 -0000 Hi, I have stuck with a problem with usb devices. In case of FreeBSD 4.8, whenever a new USB device is attached to the system, no device node is dynamically being created within the dev file system. This is in contrast to the behavior there with FreeBSD 5.0 where a new device node is being created on attaching a new USB device, Fox example when first USB device is attached then /dev/ugen0 node is created dynamically in dev file system. when 2nd device is added then /dev/ugen1 and so on .....ugen2, ugen3....... On the other hand with freeBSD 4.8 there exist some static device node /dev/ugen0, /dev/ugen0.x where x =1-16 within the /dev file system. My application uses libusb for iinteracting with the usb devices...libusb on freeBSD 4.8 tries to find /debv/ugen0, /dev/ugen1 and so on....hence couldn't able to detect more then one device. It would really be great if someone can help me in resolving the issue Any idea why this changes in the behavior with FreeBSD 4.8 and FreeBSD 5.0 Any help will be highly appreciated. Thanks Jitendra --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 04:03:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 301CB16A4D0; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 04:03:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD5DE43D2F; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 04:03:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id F0EE55309; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:03:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 439155308; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:03:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id B2B6933CAA; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:03:37 +0200 (CEST) To: "Brian F. Feldman" References: <200403261413.i2QEDKHw001781@green.homeunix.org> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:03:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200403261413.i2QEDKHw001781@green.homeunix.org> (Brian F. Feldman's message of "Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:13:20 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: arch@FreeBSD.org cc: David Schultz cc: Seigo Tanimura cc: John Baldwin Subject: Re: Is MTX_CONTESTED evil? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:03:46 -0000 "Brian F. Feldman" writes: > des@des.no (Dag-Erling =3D?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=3DF8rgrav?=3D) wrote: > > Making ADAPTIVE_MUTEXES default will not catch more bugs, it will just > > piss off users. > What in the world you are talking about? I didn't know that a large clas= s=20 > of bugs existed on SMP, turned on ADAPTIVE_MUTEXES, and found those bugs. > QED. ADAPTIVE_MUTEXES currently makes the system unusable. If we turn it on by default, people will simply stop using FreeBSD (or at least stop upgrading). DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 08:47:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7713616A4CE; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:47:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de [193.174.154.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8930B43D48; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:47:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandt@fokus.fraunhofer.de) Received: from beagle (beagle [193.175.132.100])i2SGlIJ12693; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:47:18 +0200 (MEST) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:47:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Harti Brandt To: Stephen McKay In-Reply-To: <200403280808.i2S88aJ7016011@dungeon.home> Message-ID: <20040328184244.I10175@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> References: <20040325070120.GA67497@VARK.homeunix.com> <200403280808.i2S88aJ7016011@dungeon.home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Garance A Drosihn cc: Albert Cahalan Subject: Re: posix ps (was Re: Adding `pgrep' and `pkill' to /usr/bin) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:47:24 -0000 On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Stephen McKay wrote: SM>On Saturday, 27th March 2004, Garance A Drosihn wrote: SM> SM>>>$ PERSONALITY=freebsd ps -? SM>> SM>>Secondly, I personally am not fond of commands which COMPLETELY SM>>change their behavior based on environment variables. Different SM>>options, different formats, different rules. SM> SM>Unifying ps on all Unices (including FreeBSD) is an excellent idea, and SM>I fully support this. SM> SM>Using an environment variable (no matter what name is used) to switch SM>between radically different personalities is an appalling idea. No script SM>can depend on the output of ps thereafter. Well, that is just like LANG or LC_ALL. You cannot depend on parsing utility output until you set LC_ALL=C, yet I have still to see a script that does this. If you happen to write a script for BSD syntax just put LC_ALL=C PERSONALITY=BSD on top of it. SM>If multiple personalities is a desirable trait (and it's not clear that it SM>is) then command line switches and aliases are the correct mechanisms to SM>use. That would require to add that switch to all utility calls in a script that have multiple personalities. Thats far from beeing desirable. harti From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 10:41:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6191716A4CE for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 10:41:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F9D43D2D for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 10:41:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (qmail 23726 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2004 18:41:45 -0000 Received: from dsl017-045-168.spk4.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO hydrogen.funkthat.com) ([69.17.45.168]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 28 Mar 2004 18:41:45 -0000 Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (bshkjo@localhost.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1])i2SIfhOE040686; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 10:41:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i2SIfhWd040685; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 10:41:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 10:41:43 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: jitendra pande Message-ID: <20040328184143.GO567@funkthat.com> Mail-Followup-To: jitendra pande , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20040328105352.53698.qmail@web42001.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040328105352.53698.qmail@web42001.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problem with usb in FreeBSD 4.8....help!!! X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:41:46 -0000 jitendra pande wrote this message on Sun, Mar 28, 2004 at 02:53 -0800: > On the other hand with freeBSD 4.8 there exist some static device node /dev/ugen0, /dev/ugen0.x where x =1-16 within the /dev file system. > > My application uses libusb for iinteracting with the usb devices...libusb on freeBSD 4.8 tries to find /debv/ugen0, /dev/ugen1 and so on....hence couldn't able to detect more then one device. > > It would really be great if someone can help me in resolving the issue Any idea why this changes in the behavior with FreeBSD 4.8 and FreeBSD 5.0 man MAKEDEV cd /dev; MAKEDEV ugen1 This is in the handbook: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/basics-devices.html That should resolve the issue. Note that this question should of been directed to either -questions or -stable. -arch is for disscussions of the architecture of FreeBSD-current and beyond. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 15:25:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4611E16A4CE; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33D2543D1F; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:25:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (0364be71b78bcc6fa5e33777d7334e69@adsl-67-115-73-128.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.115.73.128])i2SNOvNn029673; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9E74252325; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:24:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:24:56 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav Message-ID: <20040328232456.GA47640@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <200403261413.i2QEDKHw001781@green.homeunix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: "Brian F. Feldman" cc: David Schultz cc: Seigo Tanimura cc: John Baldwin cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Is MTX_CONTESTED evil? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:25:05 -0000 --wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Mar 28, 2004 at 02:03:37PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > "Brian F. Feldman" writes: > > des@des.no (Dag-Erling =3D?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=3DF8rgrav?=3D) wrote: > > > Making ADAPTIVE_MUTEXES default will not catch more bugs, it will just > > > piss off users. > > What in the world you are talking about? I didn't know that a large cl= ass=20 > > of bugs existed on SMP, turned on ADAPTIVE_MUTEXES, and found those bug= s. > > QED. >=20 > ADAPTIVE_MUTEXES currently makes the system unusable. If we turn it > on by default, people will simply stop using FreeBSD (or at least stop > upgrading). This is -CURRENT, remember..we can't be shy about making changes during development that will improve FreeBSD in the long term. If it's really that bad then there might be some ground work to do before it's turned on. However, my experience with ADAPTIVE_MUTEXES on two heavily loaded 4-way SMP package building machines for the past few days has not yet exposed any problems. Kris --wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAZ17IWry0BWjoQKURAvNaAKDTAGtgY9SRgT9yYvJntahzgbqbhQCfc/aa UNfCd5x0tJ2riK6UDrdtl74= =BLcT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 16:42:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DBE016A4CE; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:42:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA56843D53; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:42:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smckay@internode.on.net) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp190-27.lns1.bne1.internode.on.net [150.101.190.27])i2T0g3UK038756; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:12:03 +0930 (CST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.12.8p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2T0g2sv003657; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:42:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200403290042.i2T0g2sv003657@dungeon.home> To: Harti Brandt References: <20040325070120.GA67497@VARK.homeunix.com> <1a9c01c41359$b3da45e0$7890a8c0@dyndns.org> <200403280808.i2S88aJ7016011@dungeon.home> <20040328184244.I10175@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: <20040328184244.I10175@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> from Harti Brandt at "Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:47:18 +0200" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:42:02 +1000 From: Stephen McKay cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Albert Cahalan cc: Garance A Drosihn cc: Stephen McKay Subject: Re: posix ps (was Re: Adding `pgrep' and `pkill' to /usr/bin) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:42:12 -0000 On Sunday, 28th March 2004, Harti Brandt wrote: >Well, that is just like LANG or LC_ALL. You cannot depend on parsing >utility output until you set LC_ALL=C, yet I have still to see a script >that does this. Yes, that is a significant deficiency of the internationalisation scheme. That doesn't mean we should copy it though. >If you happen to write a script for BSD syntax just put LC_ALL=C >PERSONALITY=BSD on top of it. Hopefully in the near future there will be a universally accepted default for ps options. Are you seriously suggesting that every script forevermore will have to put PERSONALITY=STANDARD (or similar) in front of a two character command name just to defeat this misfeature? >SM>If multiple personalities is a desirable trait (and it's not clear that it >SM>is) then command line switches and aliases are the correct mechanisms to >SM>use. > >That would require to add that switch to all utility calls in a script >that have multiple personalities. Thats far from being desirable. I don't understand. I was suggesting that if end users want different flavours of output they can select them with command line switches and aliases (if this is an option at all). This is as opposed to allowing users to select the default via an environment variable, which would negatively impact the use of ps in scripts. I can't see why scripts would want to use anything but the standard options. You only want to parse one format. Stephen. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 17:19:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0459416A4CE; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:19:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5A2F43D46; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:19:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from albert@users.sf.net) Received: from c-65-34-189-253.se.client2.attbi.com ([65.34.189.253]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <20040329011906013002qqube>; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:19:07 +0000 From: Albert Cahalan To: Stephen McKay In-Reply-To: <200403290042.i2T0g2sv003657@dungeon.home> References: <20040325070120.GA67497@VARK.homeunix.com> <1a9c01c41359$b3da45e0$7890a8c0@dyndns.org> <200403280808.i2S88aJ7016011@dungeon.home> <20040328184244.I10175@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200403290042.i2T0g2sv003657@dungeon.home> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1080523435.2255.1869.camel@cube> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Date: 28 Mar 2004 20:23:56 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Garance A Drosihn cc: Albert Cahalan Subject: Re: posix ps (was Re: Adding `pgrep' and `pkill' to /usr/bin) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:19:08 -0000 On Sun, 2004-03-28 at 19:42, Stephen McKay wrote: > On Sunday, 28th March 2004, Harti Brandt wrote: > > >Well, that is just like LANG or LC_ALL. You cannot depend on parsing > >utility output until you set LC_ALL=C, yet I have still to see a script > >that does this. > > Yes, that is a significant deficiency of the internationalisation scheme. > That doesn't mean we should copy it though. At least this is proof that the idea is nothing crazy. It has problems, but then so does everything else. > >If you happen to write a script for BSD syntax just put LC_ALL=C > >PERSONALITY=BSD on top of it. > > Hopefully in the near future there will be a universally accepted default > for ps options. Are you seriously suggesting that every script forevermore > will have to put PERSONALITY=STANDARD (or similar) in front of a two > character command name just to defeat this misfeature? Generally, no. You set the personality when you run a large, complicated, or read-only script that expects some non-default behavior. The man page can document that "stuff may break". Users, especially those not doing sysadmin work, are free to take that risk. Personality support is a compatibility hack. You use it to make stuff work, not to break things. > >SM>If multiple personalities is a desirable trait (and it's not clear that it > >SM>is) then command line switches and aliases are the correct mechanisms to > >SM>use. > > > >That would require to add that switch to all utility calls in a script > >that have multiple personalities. Thats far from being desirable. > > I don't understand. I was suggesting that if end users want different > flavours of output they can select them with command line switches and > aliases (if this is an option at all). This is as opposed to allowing > users to select the default via an environment variable, which would > negatively impact the use of ps in scripts. You have that flipped around. Personality support allows you to make your old or foreign-OS scripts work. If you're porting something big, throwing CMD_ENV=sysv or CMD_ENV=bsd at the top may be the the most expedient way to deal with things. This is especially true if you're dealing with a commercial package designed for another OS. > I can't see why scripts would want to use anything but the standard options. > You only want to parse one format. Basic multi-personality support is not difficult. I'll call this semi-auto mode. Tru64 and AIX do this. If CMD_ENV=bsd is set or the first option lacks a hyphen, you parse in BSD mode. Every option goes through the bsd switch() table. If CMD_ENV=sysv is set and the first option has a hyphen, every option goes through the sysv switch table. You can get fancy. There are some tricks to make a transition easier or more useful. For example, Linux ps will give a warning and fall back to BSD mode if the UNIX-style parser encounters problems. You can allow mixed options; my users really like this. I'll end with a chunk of my man page. Please note the comment "In general, it is a bad idea to set these variables." applying to all environment variables (not just personality) and the fact that the 4 non-POSIX personalities are marked with the comment "(totally non-standard)" to warn the users. -------------------------------------------------------------------- ENVIRONMENT VARIABLES The following environment variables could affect ps: COLUMNS Override default display width. LINES Override default display height. PS_PERSONALITY Set to one of posix,old,linux,bsd,sun,digital... CMD_ENV Set to one of posix,old,linux,bsd,sun,digital... I_WANT_A_BROKEN_PS Force obsolete command line interpretation. LC_TIME Date format. PS_COLORS Not currently supported. PS_FORMAT Default output format override. PS_SYSMAP Default namelist (System.map) location. PS_SYSTEM_MAP Default namelist (System.map) location. POSIXLY_CORRECT Don't find excuses to ignore bad "features". UNIX95 Don't find excuses to ignore bad "features". _XPG Cancel CMD_ENV=irix non-standard behavior. In general, it is a bad idea to set these variables. The one exception is CMD_ENV or PS_PERSONALITY, which could be set to Linux for normal systems. Without that setting, ps follows the useless and bad parts of the Unix98 standard. PERSONALITY 390 like the S/390 OpenEdition ps aix like AIX ps bsd like FreeBSD ps (totally non-standard) compaq like Digital Unix ps debian like the old Debian ps digital like Digital Unix ps gnu like the old Debian ps hp like HP-UX ps hpux like HP-UX ps irix like Irix ps linux ***** RECOMMENDED ***** old like the original Linux ps (totally non-standard) posix standard sco like SCO ps sgi like Irix ps sun like SunOS 4 ps (totally non-standard) sunos like SunOS 4 ps (totally non-standard) sysv standard unix standard unix95 standard unix98 standard From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 17:37:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6732316A4CE for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:37:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.server.rpi.edu (smtp3.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 216D943D31 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:37:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp3.server.rpi.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i2T1b343001108; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:37:04 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200403280808.i2S88aJ7016011@dungeon.home> References: <20040325070120.GA67497@VARK.homeunix.com> <1a9c01c41359$b3da45e0$7890a8c0@dyndns.org> <200403280808.i2S88aJ7016011@dungeon.home> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:37:01 -0500 To: Stephen McKay , arch@freebsd.org From: Garance A Drosihn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Subject: Re: posix ps (was Re: Adding `pgrep' and `pkill' to /usr/bin) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:37:05 -0000 At 6:08 PM +1000 3/28/04, Stephen McKay wrote: >On Saturday, 27th March 2004, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > >>>$ PERSONALITY=freebsd ps -? >> >> Secondly, I personally am not fond of commands which COMPLETELY >> change their behavior based on environment variables. Different >> options, different formats, different rules. > >Unifying ps on all Unices (including FreeBSD) is an excellent idea, >and I fully support this. > >Using an environment variable (no matter what name is used) to >switch between radically different personalities is an appalling >idea. No script can depend on the output of ps thereafter. Fwiw, I do have plans to improve `ps' some more, but no intention for adding dramatic personality changes based on any environment variable. If the next version of POSIX/SUS describes such a variable, *then* we'll consider supporting it. That is the only context where it makes sense, imo. That's just my personal option, based on my previous experience with such variables. Note that I'll probably be tied up with "other matters" until April 15th or so, so don't expect to hear too much from me in the immediate future. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 18:53:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7894316A4CE; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:53:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB4AA43D1D; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:53:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smckay@internode.on.net) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp190-27.lns1.bne1.internode.on.net [150.101.190.27])i2T2qsUK097541; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:22:55 +0930 (CST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.12.8p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2T2qosv004559; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:52:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200403290252.i2T2qosv004559@dungeon.home> To: Albert Cahalan References: <20040325070120.GA67497@VARK.homeunix.com> <1a9c01c41359$b3da45e0$7890a8c0@dyndns.org> <200403280808.i2S88aJ7016011@dungeon.home> <20040328184244.I10175@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200403290042.i2T0g2sv003657@dungeon.home> <1080523435.2255.1869.camel@cube> In-Reply-To: <1080523435.2255.1869.camel@cube> from Albert Cahalan at "28 Mar 2004 20:23:56 -0500" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:52:50 +1000 From: Stephen McKay cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Garance A Drosihn cc: Stephen McKay Subject: Re: posix ps (was Re: Adding `pgrep' and `pkill' to /usr/bin) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:53:05 -0000 On Sunday, 28th March 2004, Albert Cahalan wrote: >On Sun, 2004-03-28 at 19:42, Stephen McKay wrote: >> On Sunday, 28th March 2004, Harti Brandt wrote: >> >> >Well, that is just like LANG or LC_ALL. You cannot depend on parsing >> >utility output until you set LC_ALL=C, yet I have still to see a script >> >that does this. >> >> Yes, that is a significant deficiency of the internationalisation scheme. >> That doesn't mean we should copy it though. > >At least this is proof that the idea is nothing crazy. I'm happy to agree that you disagree with me on this point. :-) >It has problems, but then so does everything else. In my mind it is one of those insidious problems that keeps giving you difficulties long after you thought you fixed them all. It's a bit like "const" in C, which looks like a great idea but which bites you over and over again. Hence the term "const poisoning". Perhaps there is a similar name for using environment variables to change the behaviour of existing utilities so that you can no longer predict their output in scripts. >Generally, no. You set the personality when you run >a large, complicated, or read-only script that expects >some non-default behavior. >Personality support is a compatibility hack. You use >it to make stuff work, not to break things. My fear (and expectation) based on experience with such things as Pyramid's dual unix personalities (and others) is that users will set every variable they can and to the weirdest of things. This forces every script to handle every possible variable. The people I worked with responded by locking everything down with huge numbers of hard-coded paths (to defeat the user selected unix personality). The possibility of having portable scripts disappeared. My hope is that reworking ps can introduce better portability, not harm it. >You have that flipped around. Personality support allows >you to make your old or foreign-OS scripts work. Repeating myself here, but I believe users will set the variable and that will break every script, so instead of this feature being used selectively to breath new life into old scripts, it will add a burden onto the authors of every new script. >You can get fancy. There are some tricks to make a >transition easier or more useful. For example, Linux >ps will give a warning and fall back to BSD mode if >the UNIX-style parser encounters problems. You can >allow mixed options; my users really like this. I'm happy for users to get whatever they like as long as use in scripts is completely predictable. Personally, I like it when "ps axl" and "ps -ef" do magic based on the hyphen. That's not a hidden variable though. >I'll end with a chunk of my man page. Please note the comment >"In general, it is a bad idea to set these variables." applying >to all environment variables (not just personality) and the >fact that the 4 non-POSIX personalities are marked with the >comment "(totally non-standard)" to warn the users. I think we've both got our arguments in front of everyone, so I probably won't counter your counter-counter arguments. :-) I'm not against you providing such a full featured universal ps command, but I don't think it is the right thing for /bin/ps in FreeBSD. Your "in general it is a bad idea" advice is much weaker than it should be though, and this is the core of my argument. I believe that every time you add a hidden parameter to a program you weaken its utility because using it portably, reliably and predictably becomes more difficult. It's the same argument I make against using global variables in subroutines. Stephen. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 23:38:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE60116A4CF; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:38:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de [193.174.154.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA0543D31; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:38:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandt@fokus.fraunhofer.de) Received: from beagle (beagle [193.175.132.100])i2T7c5J17400; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:38:06 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:38:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Harti Brandt To: Stephen McKay In-Reply-To: <200403290042.i2T0g2sv003657@dungeon.home> Message-ID: <20040329091900.Y12618@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> References: <20040325070120.GA67497@VARK.homeunix.com> <20040328184244.I10175@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200403290042.i2T0g2sv003657@dungeon.home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Garance A Drosihn cc: Albert Cahalan Subject: Re: posix ps (was Re: Adding `pgrep' and `pkill' to /usr/bin) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: harti@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:38:15 -0000 On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Stephen McKay wrote: SM>On Sunday, 28th March 2004, Harti Brandt wrote: SM> SM>>Well, that is just like LANG or LC_ALL. You cannot depend on parsing SM>>utility output until you set LC_ALL=C, yet I have still to see a script SM>>that does this. SM> SM>Yes, that is a significant deficiency of the internationalisation scheme. SM>That doesn't mean we should copy it though. SM> SM>>If you happen to write a script for BSD syntax just put LC_ALL=C SM>>PERSONALITY=BSD on top of it. SM> SM>Hopefully in the near future there will be a universally accepted default SM>for ps options. Are you seriously suggesting that every script forevermore SM>will have to put PERSONALITY=STANDARD (or similar) in front of a two SM>character command name just to defeat this misfeature? Well, I'm rather thinking that the PERSONALITY that gets set at the begin of the script gives you the default for all the commands in that script. If you take a BSD script setting PERSONALITY=BSD should be fine, if you happen to use a script coming from Slowaris PERSONALITY=SYSV or whatever will do the job. IF you need a BSD option inside a SYSV script, THEN you have to specify that just for the single command. If you use command line options to select the behaviour you would need to equip your entire BSD script with the command line options to select BSD behaviour for all the commands in it. You simply have no way to specify a default. SM>>SM>If multiple personalities is a desirable trait (and it's not clear that it SM>>SM>is) then command line switches and aliases are the correct mechanisms to SM>>SM>use. SM>> SM>>That would require to add that switch to all utility calls in a script SM>>that have multiple personalities. Thats far from being desirable. SM> SM>I don't understand. I was suggesting that if end users want different SM>flavours of output they can select them with command line switches and SM>aliases (if this is an option at all). This is as opposed to allowing SM>users to select the default via an environment variable, which would SM>negatively impact the use of ps in scripts. SM> SM>I can't see why scripts would want to use anything but the standard options. SM>You only want to parse one format. Think of 'ls -o'. -o is taken by posix to mean the same as '-l' but without showing the group. FreeBSD ls instead takes it to show file flags. This is a more obvious case where you want the selection. Also if a have dozens of scripts which have worked on BSD for a long time, I'm ready to put a PERSONALITY=BSD on top of them, but I don't think I want to go through them line by line to find out which of the utilities is now SysV conform and needs another set of switches or for which utility I have to use which switch to get the BSD syntax. THIS negatively impacts the use in scripts. harti From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 28 23:43:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A17B116A4D1; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:43:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de [193.174.154.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA6643D5A; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:43:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandt@fokus.fraunhofer.de) Received: from beagle (beagle [193.175.132.100])i2T7gwJ18528; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:42:58 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:42:58 +0200 (CEST) From: Harti Brandt To: Stephen McKay In-Reply-To: <200403290252.i2T2qosv004559@dungeon.home> Message-ID: <20040329094109.G12618@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> References: <20040325070120.GA67497@VARK.homeunix.com> <20040328184244.I10175@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> <1080523435.2255.1869.camel@cube> <200403290252.i2T2qosv004559@dungeon.home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Garance A Drosihn cc: Albert Cahalan Subject: Re: posix ps (was Re: Adding `pgrep' and `pkill' to /usr/bin) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: harti@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:43:12 -0000 On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Stephen McKay wrote: SM>I'm happy for users to get whatever they like as long as use in scripts is SM>completely predictable. Personally, I like it when "ps axl" and "ps -ef" SM>do magic based on the hyphen. That's not a hidden variable though. While that's doable for ps it does not work for ls and other utilities. What whould be nice to have is a mechanism that allows us to make more of our utilites posix conform without breaking BSD support. harti From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 00:30:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1211816A4CE; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:30:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F89B43D1D; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:30:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smckay@internode.on.net) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp190-27.lns1.bne1.internode.on.net [150.101.190.27])i2T8Ukwn018691; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:00:47 +0930 (CST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.12.8p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2T8Ujsv006376; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:30:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200403290830.i2T8Ujsv006376@dungeon.home> To: harti@freebsd.org References: <20040325070120.GA67497@VARK.homeunix.com> <1a9c01c41359$b3da45e0$7890a8c0@dyndns.org> <200403280808.i2S88aJ7016011@dungeon.home> <20040328184244.I10175@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200403290042.i2T0g2sv003657@dungeon.home> <20040329091900.Y12618@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: <20040329091900.Y12618@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> from Harti Brandt at "Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:38:05 +0200" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:30:45 +1000 From: Stephen McKay cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Albert Cahalan cc: Garance A Drosihn cc: Stephen McKay Subject: Re: posix ps (was Re: Adding `pgrep' and `pkill' to /usr/bin) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:30:50 -0000 On Monday, 29th March 2004, Harti Brandt wrote: >Think of 'ls -o'. -o is taken by posix to mean the same as '-l' but >without showing the group. FreeBSD ls instead takes it to show file flags. >This is a more obvious case where you want the selection. I had promised to leave this debate, having said what I thought needed to be said. But this (and your subsequent message) implies that there are people who want to add $PERSONALITY to many basic FreeBSD utilities, not just in ps. This is a very bad road to take. Far from solving portability difficulties, it guarantees those difficulties into the indefinite future. If we need posix compatibility (and this should be a separate debate), then we take the pain and change the 'ls -o' option. For one release cycle the option still works in the old manner but outputs a warning. In the next major release, it changes to the posix flavour. Bang. Problem solved. Adding a hidden variable just makes things more complicated and guarantees the pain continues forever. People *will* set this variable inappropriately, and it *will* be a source of problems. It won't even be safe for end users as they will learn a PERSONALITY rather than FreeBSD. They will have to learn all such personalities in order to be competent. I understood the posix push as an attempt at simplification of the unix-like group of operating systems. >Also if a have dozens of scripts which have worked on BSD for a long time, >I'm ready to put a PERSONALITY=BSD on top of them, but I don't think I >want to go through them line by line to find out which of the utilities is >now SysV conform and needs another set of switches or for which utility I >have to use which switch to get the BSD syntax. THIS negatively >impacts the use in scripts. My view is the complete opposite of this. Make the upcoming change very obvious with very loud warnings. When you upgrade to the next major release of FreeBSD, you port the scripts you want to use and leave behind the ones you no longer need. You can stay safely on an old version of FreeBSD for years if you need that time for porting. I am a strong proponent of backward compatibility. But in cases where it cannot be done without a conflict, then the "Warning" followed by "Big Axe" method is the right approach. As pioneered by our Danish committers if memory serves. :-) Stephen. PS Should the CC list be truncated now? From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 01:04:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6076E16A4CE; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de [193.174.154.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4611043D2D; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:04:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandt@fokus.fraunhofer.de) Received: from beagle (beagle [193.175.132.100])i2T94lJ10822; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:04:47 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:04:47 +0200 (CEST) From: Harti Brandt To: Stephen McKay In-Reply-To: <200403290830.i2T8Ujsv006376@dungeon.home> Message-ID: <20040329105719.E13220@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> References: <20040325070120.GA67497@VARK.homeunix.com> <20040328184244.I10175@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> <20040329091900.Y12618@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200403290830.i2T8Ujsv006376@dungeon.home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Garance A Drosihn cc: Albert Cahalan Subject: Re: posix ps (was Re: Adding `pgrep' and `pkill' to /usr/bin) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: harti@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:04:53 -0000 On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Stephen McKay wrote: SM>On Monday, 29th March 2004, Harti Brandt wrote: SM> SM>>Think of 'ls -o'. -o is taken by posix to mean the same as '-l' but SM>>without showing the group. FreeBSD ls instead takes it to show file flags. SM>>This is a more obvious case where you want the selection. SM> SM>I had promised to leave this debate, having said what I thought needed to SM>be said. But this (and your subsequent message) implies that there are SM>people who want to add $PERSONALITY to many basic FreeBSD utilities, not SM>just in ps. SM> SM>This is a very bad road to take. Far from solving portability difficulties, SM>it guarantees those difficulties into the indefinite future. SM> SM>If we need posix compatibility (and this should be a separate debate), then SM>we take the pain and change the 'ls -o' option. For one release cycle the SM>option still works in the old manner but outputs a warning. In the next SM>major release, it changes to the posix flavour. Bang. Problem solved. SM>Adding a hidden variable just makes things more complicated and guarantees SM>the pain continues forever. People *will* set this variable inappropriately, SM>and it *will* be a source of problems. I'm all with you on this. I said all this under the proposition that we want to keep BSD syntax that conflicts with Posix. Sure, I'd rather simply move to posix. (The only thing I'd want to retain is 'ps ax' :-) SM>PS Should the CC list be truncated now? Ok. After this one :-) harti From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 01:18:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2EC016A4D1; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:18:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16D4C43D75; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:18:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smckay@internode.on.net) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp190-27.lns1.bne1.internode.on.net [150.101.190.27])i2T9Iuwn065312; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:48:56 +0930 (CST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.12.8p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2T9Itsv006700; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:18:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200403290918.i2T9Itsv006700@dungeon.home> To: harti@freebsd.org References: <20040325070120.GA67497@VARK.homeunix.com> <1a9c01c41359$b3da45e0$7890a8c0@dyndns.org> <200403280808.i2S88aJ7016011@dungeon.home> <20040328184244.I10175@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200403290042.i2T0g2sv003657@dungeon.home> <20040329091900.Y12618@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200403290830.i2T8Ujsv006376@dungeon.home> <20040329105719.E13220@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: <20040329105719.E13220@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> from Harti Brandt at "Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:04:47 +0200" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:18:55 +1000 From: Stephen McKay cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Stephen McKay Subject: Re: posix ps (was Re: Adding `pgrep' and `pkill' to /usr/bin) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:18:59 -0000 On Monday, 29th March 2004, Harti Brandt wrote: >I'm all with you on this. I said all this under the proposition that we >want to keep BSD syntax that conflicts with Posix. Sure, I'd rather simply >move to posix. (The only thing I'd want to retain is 'ps ax' :-) OK. :-) That means that (as far as the two of us is concerned at least) the issue is whether or not we want to be posix conformant. I've always been of the opinion that we should be posix compatible when that is convenient, and ignore it otherwise. I *think* that is the general consensus among FreeBSD developers too, but that impression may be a few years out of date now. Anyway, this looks like the end of this thread, and I'm off to look for a FreeBSD "standards" list to check if there is anything interesting in the archives that could be considered an official policy on posix conformance. Cheers, Stephen. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 03:12:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC7C16A4CE; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from dire.bris.ac.uk (dire.bris.ac.uk [137.222.10.60]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128EC43D3F; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:12:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Jan.Grant@bristol.ac.uk) Received: from mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk by dire.bris.ac.uk with SMTP-PRIV with ESMTP; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:10:33 +0100 Received: from cmjg (helo=localhost) by mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 1B7ucq-00026r-00; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:08:16 +0100 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:08:16 +0100 (BST) From: Jan Grant X-X-Sender: cmjg@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk To: Alexey Zelkin In-Reply-To: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> Message-ID: References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: Jan Grant cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:12:28 -0000 On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > At this point I would like to start some kind of discussion and listen for > your ideas which features you'd like to see in application which will be > handling these XMLs. > According XML structure. It should look like: > > >
> Section Title > Multiline section description > > > > > > > Entry title > Entry description > >
> Please strongly consider adding an XML namespace to this; it gives some measure of version control and you can use XSLT (where possible) to migrate cleanly from one version to the next. I know this might seem less useful for a hand-maintained NOTES but getting practice in addressing some of the complaints levelled against the adoption of XML by picking the useful bits of the technology is (I think) a good idea. Cheers, -- jan grant, ILRT, University of Bristol. http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/ Tel +44(0)117 9287088 Fax +44 (0)117 9287112 http://ioctl.org/jan/ Generalisation is never appropriate. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 05:36:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2656216A4CE; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 05:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from srv01.sparkit.no (srv01.sparkit.no [193.69.116.226]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88FCD43D1F; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 05:36:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@FreeBSD.org) Received: from ws ([193.69.114.88]) by srv01.sparkit.no (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2TDaWet052986; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:36:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from eivind@FreeBSD.org) Received: from ws (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ws (8.12.9/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2TDZmnu002034; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:35:48 GMT (envelope-from eivind@ws) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by ws (8.12.9/8.12.10/Submit) id i2TDZlxV002024; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:35:47 GMT (envelope-from eivind) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:34:45 +0000 From: Eivind Eklund To: Pawel Jakub Dawidek Message-ID: <20040329133444.GA1362@FreeBSD.org> References: <20040327203620.GR8930@darkness.comp.waw.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040327203620.GR8930@darkness.comp.waw.pl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: fchroot(2) and others. X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:36:38 -0000 On Sat, Mar 27, 2004 at 09:36:20PM +0100, Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote: > int flink(int fd, const char *link); I'll just note that I have regularly really missed this. It would let me do atomic operations, only providing a file when it is complete, keeping the file system clean until then. I think we should check for the present process being the owner of the inode before allowing the flink(). Ideally, for my purposes, I'd also have an mktmpfd(), which would work like mkstemp but never create the actual file link. The only reason I've not implemented these calls already is that I assumed there was some security reason they were not there, but I can't really see any. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 09:45:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C186916A4CE; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:45:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5013E43D1F; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:45:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from albert@users.sf.net) Received: from c-65-34-189-253.se.client2.attbi.com ([65.34.189.253]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20040329174536015007obr2e>; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:45:36 +0000 From: Albert Cahalan To: harti@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040329105719.E13220@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> References: <20040325070120.GA67497@VARK.homeunix.com> <1a9c01c41359$b3da45e0$7890a8c0@dyndns.org> <200403280808.i2S88aJ7016011@dungeon.home> <20040328184244.I10175@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200403290042.i2T0g2sv003657@dungeon.home> <20040329091900.Y12618@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> <200403290830.i2T8Ujsv006376@dungeon.home> <20040329105719.E13220@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1080582625.2233.2032.camel@cube> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Date: 29 Mar 2004 12:50:26 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Albert Cahalan cc: Garance A Drosihn cc: Stephen McKay Subject: Re: posix ps (was Re: Adding `pgrep' and `pkill' to /usr/bin) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:45:37 -0000 On Mon, 2004-03-29 at 04:04, Harti Brandt wrote: > On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Stephen McKay wrote: > > SM>On Monday, 29th March 2004, Harti Brandt wrote: > SM> > SM>>Think of 'ls -o'. -o is taken by posix to mean the same as '-l' but > SM>>without showing the group. FreeBSD ls instead takes it to show file flags. > SM>>This is a more obvious case where you want the selection. That was driving me nuts on a FreeBSD box just a few days ago. :-) > SM>I had promised to leave this debate, having said what I thought needed to > SM>be said. But this (and your subsequent message) implies that there are > SM>people who want to add $PERSONALITY to many basic FreeBSD utilities, not > SM>just in ps. > SM> > SM>This is a very bad road to take. Far from solving portability difficulties, > SM>it guarantees those difficulties into the indefinite future. Pyrimid OS was a different problem. It was fully expected that half of the users would choose BSD and the other half would choose SysV, and that they would set this in ~/.profile even. The users were even encourages to do this, right? Being able to flip a script into an odd mode isn't quite the same. > SM>If we need posix compatibility (and this should be a separate debate), then > SM>we take the pain and change the 'ls -o' option. For one release cycle the > SM>option still works in the old manner but outputs a warning. In the next > SM>major release, it changes to the posix flavour. Bang. Problem solved. Go for it. Make "ps" print a warning if "-" is ever used. Change "ls -o" too of course. > SM>Adding a hidden variable just makes things more complicated and guarantees > SM>the pain continues forever. People *will* set this variable inappropriately, > SM>and it *will* be a source of problems. > > I'm all with you on this. I said all this under the proposition that we > want to keep BSD syntax that conflicts with Posix. Sure, I'd rather simply > move to posix. (The only thing I'd want to retain is 'ps ax' :-) As long as you don't expect "ps -ax" as well, no problem. > SM>PS Should the CC list be truncated now? > > Ok. After this one :-) I'd like to be left on. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 13:21:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDCFA16A4CF; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from crf-consulting.co.uk (82-44-220-218.cable.ubr10.haye.blueyonder.co.uk [82.44.220.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2658E43D1F; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:21:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@crf-consulting.co.uk) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (clan.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.20])i2TLKx5U062045; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:20:59 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i2TLKxEl020351; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:20:59 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@clan.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost)i2TLKwBx020350; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:20:58 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:20:58 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20040329212058.GA713@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20040327085537.GC33016@clan.nothing-going-on.org> <21268.1080378686@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <21268.1080378686@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: FreeBSD Project cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where should devctl notifications be sent from? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:21:03 -0000 --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 27, 2004 at 10:11:26AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > The one question I would like you to answer is: How do you know it is > the right iPod before you stuff it with you backup ? Depends how good GBDE is. If=20 mdconfig -a -t vnode -f /ipod/backup.md -u 0 gbde attach /dev/md0c works, and it's not my iPod, we have bigger problems... This also hooks in to the thread recently about USB serial numbers. USB devices are just one class of removable device which might have unique identifiers (or unique-enough for most purposes) that could be exposed through a suitable namespace (/dev, presumably). > The problem is, more or less, that the higher up (ie: lower on your list) > in the kernel you get, the more information you have lost. >=20 > Devctl today is working on the newbus view of hardware, and there we > have already lost most of the info that could help you make that > decision. Part of what I don't get (I think) is why devctl is needed. Wouldn't a new EVFILT_DEV kqueue filter be a more consistent way of doing things? I realise that may be opening a can of worms. I've googled my way back through the archives and didn't turn up anything that looked like discussion of the devctl approach. If there's anything out there that explains this that I've missed, I'll read any pointers. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAaJM5k6gHZCw343URAmjXAJwJQbBDC4ugQcmYaLMgSX1m1jQaEQCeOp3o TlPn9t4TcGXMmbjAzjlmgAg= =piwZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 13:34:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09DF316A53B; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from crf-consulting.co.uk (82-44-220-218.cable.ubr10.haye.blueyonder.co.uk [82.44.220.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53CD243D49; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:34:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@crf-consulting.co.uk) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (clan.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.20])i2TLYb5U062221; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:34:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i2TLYbuv025391; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:34:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@clan.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost)i2TLYbbA025390; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:34:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:34:37 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: "M. Warner Losh" Message-ID: <20040329213437.GB713@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20040327085537.GC33016@clan.nothing-going-on.org> <20040328.011418.89945505.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8GpibOaaTibBMecb" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040328.011418.89945505.imp@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: FreeBSD Project cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where should devctl notifications be sent from? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:34:48 -0000 --8GpibOaaTibBMecb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Mar 28, 2004 at 01:14:18AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: > : The specific problem I'm trying to solve involves an iPod connected > : through firewire. I'd like to be able to have devd be notified when the > : iPod arrives, so that various processes can kick off automatically. In > : an ideal world, I'll drop the iPod in the dock, and some backup > : processes start, thereby allowing me to justify the purchase of a model > : several sizes larger than I actually need :-) > :=20 > : It looks like there are several places where the devctl_queue_data() and > : related calls could be placed: > :=20 > : firewire(4) -- when the device is plugged in > : fwohci(4) -- when the interface arrives > : sbp(4) -- when it's recognised as a mass storage device >=20 > These are all inapprorpiate. The devctl_queue_data is already called > from the bus level for these device. Either there is a driver, in > which case a driver added is called, or there isn't, in which case the > no driver routine is called. If I'm following, that means I should be able to: # cat /dev/devctl drop the iPod in the dock, and see various '+' lines? I've just tried that, and there's no output. /var/log/messages shows entries from firewire0 and fwohci0, devfs has created /dev/da2 and /dev/da2s2, and=20 'mount /ipod' works, so the firewire driver's doing the right thing as far as recognising and enabling the device goes. > This is clearly wrong. devd will soon grow the ability to do actions > based on files appearing in a directory tree. Since /dev is a > directory tree, that will be a more appropriate way of dealing. devd > does not know about dev_t things from the devctl interface, nor should > it in my opinion. However, the tree stuff should be sufficiently > general to do what you need (and may obviate the need for robert's > patches, since geom name space is a subset of dev by convention). Yep, that would work. So devd is going to be monitoring /dev/devctl for device notifications, and directories (e.g., /dev) for other events. What about things like EVFILT_NETDEV for things like link up and link down events? Playing devil's advocate for a minute (and I'm still wrapping my head around all this), is that the right way to go? =20 It makes sense if devd is going to be the OneTrueWay to control this sort= =20 of thing, but if we might want different devd-alike implementations (maybe something with a GUI on top), each devd-alike is going to have to start monitoring these other event sources too. Wouldn't it be better to have a single place (or mechanism) for the kernel= =20 to expose these events that applications can monitor, instead of multiple different mechanisms? =20 N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --8GpibOaaTibBMecb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAaJZsk6gHZCw343URAj2vAJsGFv1kcGuUIQab7cROk/lK4Mst/QCdH4rk pIISJ6lOZSVxfRRo4zxpLb4= =yj00 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --8GpibOaaTibBMecb-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 14:22:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC0516A4CE; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:22:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8563643D46; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:22:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i2TMMnkj096214; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:22:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:22:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040329.152257.88472911.imp@bsdimp.com> To: nik@freebsd.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20040329213437.GB713@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20040327085537.GC33016@clan.nothing-going-on.org> <20040328.011418.89945505.imp@bsdimp.com> <20040329213437.GB713@clan.nothing-going-on.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where should devctl notifications be sent from? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:22:51 -0000 In message: <20040329213437.GB713@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Nik Clayton writes: : On Sun, Mar 28, 2004 at 01:14:18AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: : > : The specific problem I'm trying to solve involves an iPod connected : > : through firewire. I'd like to be able to have devd be notified when the : > : iPod arrives, so that various processes can kick off automatically. In : > : an ideal world, I'll drop the iPod in the dock, and some backup : > : processes start, thereby allowing me to justify the purchase of a model : > : several sizes larger than I actually need :-) : > : : > : It looks like there are several places where the devctl_queue_data() and : > : related calls could be placed: : > : : > : firewire(4) -- when the device is plugged in : > : fwohci(4) -- when the interface arrives : > : sbp(4) -- when it's recognised as a mass storage device : > : > These are all inapprorpiate. The devctl_queue_data is already called : > from the bus level for these device. Either there is a driver, in : > which case a driver added is called, or there isn't, in which case the : > no driver routine is called. : : If I'm following, that means I should be able to: : : # cat /dev/devctl : : drop the iPod in the dock, and see various '+' lines? I've just tried : that, and there's no output. Only if devd is not running. I know for a fact that they will appear, since I've loaded firewire drivers while I had a camera connected, and all the right goo happened. : /var/log/messages shows entries from : firewire0 and fwohci0, devfs has created /dev/da2 and /dev/da2s2, and : 'mount /ipod' works, so the firewire driver's doing the right thing as : far as recognising and enabling the device goes. Unless you don't have devd running, this isn't the case. And if you don't have devd running, chances are excellent that it is disabled in the kernel. hw.bus.devctl_disable: 0 is the key. : > This is clearly wrong. devd will soon grow the ability to do actions : > based on files appearing in a directory tree. Since /dev is a : > directory tree, that will be a more appropriate way of dealing. devd : > does not know about dev_t things from the devctl interface, nor should : > it in my opinion. However, the tree stuff should be sufficiently : > general to do what you need (and may obviate the need for robert's : > patches, since geom name space is a subset of dev by convention). : : Yep, that would work. So devd is going to be monitoring /dev/devctl for : device notifications, and directories (e.g., /dev) for other events. : What about things like EVFILT_NETDEV for things like link up and link : down events? Yes. That's the plan. There will be a variety of different events. : Playing devil's advocate for a minute (and I'm still wrapping my head : around all this), is that the right way to go? It is how I designed it from day one. : It makes sense if devd is going to be the OneTrueWay to control this sort : of thing, but if we might want different devd-alike implementations : (maybe something with a GUI on top), each devd-alike is going to have to : start monitoring these other event sources too. No. That's not going to be the case. devd will republish to a pipe so that we don't have to add a number of different weird things into the kernel. : Wouldn't it be better to have a single place (or mechanism) for the kernel : to expose these events that applications can monitor, instead of multiple : different mechanisms? No. It would be better to have one daemon that deals with all the stuff and republishes it over a single pipe. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 20:32:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B43016A4CE; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:32:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout1.pacific.net.au (mailout1.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.84]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B558343D53; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:32:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bde@zeta.org.au) Received: from mailproxy1.pacific.net.au (mailproxy1.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.86])i2U4Wn4u002837; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:32:49 +1000 Received: from gamplex.bde.org (katana.zip.com.au [61.8.7.246]) i2U4WlGQ010430; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:32:48 +1000 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:32:46 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: bde@gamplex.bde.org To: Alexey Zelkin In-Reply-To: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> Message-ID: <20040330142810.B8258@gamplex.bde.org> References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:32:50 -0000 On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > This weekend I have got some spare time (due to illness) and in order to get > some rest from current tasks decided to pass thru old TODO file. Most > interesting task got my attention was old item related to XMLification NOTES. Sorry about your illness. In case silence is considered approval ... I checked the date and was surprised to find that it was not April yet. Bruce From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 00:48:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E631116A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 00:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from srv01.sparkit.no (srv01.sparkit.no [193.69.116.226]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4372043D45; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 00:48:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@FreeBSD.org) Received: from ws ([193.69.114.88]) by srv01.sparkit.no (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2U8m3kg088255; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:48:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from eivind@FreeBSD.org) Received: from ws (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ws (8.12.9/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2U8lKnu008688; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:47:20 GMT (envelope-from eivind@ws) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by ws (8.12.9/8.12.10/Submit) id i2U8lKdV008685; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:47:20 GMT (envelope-from eivind) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:46:18 +0000 From: Eivind Eklund To: Alexey Zelkin Message-ID: <20040330084618.GA2645@FreeBSD.org> References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:48:13 -0000 On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > At this point I would like to start some kind of discussion and listen for > your ideas which features you'd like to see in application which will be > handling these XMLs. I'd like to not have XML, please. XML is hard to read - there is way too much repetition compared to content. If you have to change the syntax, please use something more lightweight than XML (or make absolutely sure we do not have to deal with the XML at the source level in any way except when adding or removing devices/options to/from the source tree.) Eivind. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 03:51:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C368D16A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:51:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from phantom.cris.net (phantom.cris.net [212.110.130.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98CD743D4C for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:51:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phantom@FreeBSD.org.ua) Received: from phantom.cris.net (phantom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phantom.cris.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2UBpNZI060091; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:51:23 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from phantom@FreeBSD.org.ua) Received: (from phantom@localhost) by phantom.cris.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i2UBpMII060090; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:51:22 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from phantom) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:51:22 +0300 From: Alexey Zelkin To: Bruce Evans Message-ID: <20040330115122.GA59943@phantom.cris.net> References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330142810.B8258@gamplex.bde.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040330142810.B8258@gamplex.bde.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.9-STABLE i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:51:21 -0000 hi, On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 02:32:46PM +1000, Bruce Evans wrote: > On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > > > This weekend I have got some spare time (due to illness) and in order to get > > some rest from current tasks decided to pass thru old TODO file. Most > > interesting task got my attention was old item related to XMLification NOTES. > > Sorry about your illness. > > In case silence is considered approval ... I checked the date and was > surprised to find that it was not April yet. Advantages of this step are obvious, so I do not see any reasons joke. It almost does not add maintaince overhead costs, expect making sure that XML integrity preserved, but allows to add dependencies/conflicts checking for regular kernel configuration files and provide easy interface to tools which need to know about NOTES content. Also, I do not seek any approval for now because tool itself is not finished yet and some things still not implemented. -- /* Alexey Zelkin && Independent Contractor */ /* phantom(at)FreeBSD.org && http://www.FreeBSD.org/java */ /* phantom(at)cris.net && http://www.FreeBSD.org.ua/ */ From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 03:56:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D8616A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:56:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from phantom.cris.net (phantom.cris.net [212.110.130.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9A143D54; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:56:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phantom@FreeBSD.org.ua) Received: from phantom.cris.net (phantom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phantom.cris.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2UBujZI060136; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:56:45 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from phantom@FreeBSD.org.ua) Received: (from phantom@localhost) by phantom.cris.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i2UBuifq060135; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:56:44 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from phantom) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:56:44 +0300 From: Alexey Zelkin To: Eivind Eklund Message-ID: <20040330115644.GB59943@phantom.cris.net> References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330084618.GA2645@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040330084618.GA2645@FreeBSD.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.9-STABLE i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:56:43 -0000 hi, On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 08:46:18AM +0000, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > > > At this point I would like to start some kind of discussion and listen for > > your ideas which features you'd like to see in application which will be > > handling these XMLs. > > I'd like to not have XML, please. XML is hard to read - there is way > too much repetition compared to content. If you have to change the You will be able to generate text-only LINT or NOTES and use old format for reading. > syntax, please use something more lightweight than XML (or make > absolutely sure we do not have to deal with the XML at the source level I do not see any point to invent any other formats in days when XML become de-facto standard for such kind of information. > in any way except when adding or removing devices/options to/from the > source tree.) You will need to modify XML file only, no source code intervention needed for any actions except adding new low-level features. But this is same way of intervention as changing config(8). -- /* Alexey Zelkin && Independent Contractor */ /* phantom(at)FreeBSD.org && http://www.FreeBSD.org/java */ /* phantom(at)cris.net && http://www.FreeBSD.org.ua/ */ From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 04:10:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63BE216A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:10:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586A743D3F; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:10:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mux@freebsd.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1920) id 51BE55C78F; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:10:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:10:48 +0200 From: Maxime Henrion To: Alexey Zelkin Message-ID: <20040330121048.GA44790@elvis.mu.org> References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330142810.B8258@gamplex.bde.org> <20040330115122.GA59943@phantom.cris.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040330115122.GA59943@phantom.cris.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:10:48 -0000 Alexey Zelkin wrote: > hi, > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 02:32:46PM +1000, Bruce Evans wrote: > > On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > > > > > This weekend I have got some spare time (due to illness) and in order to get > > > some rest from current tasks decided to pass thru old TODO file. Most > > > interesting task got my attention was old item related to XMLification NOTES. > > > > Sorry about your illness. > > > > In case silence is considered approval ... I checked the date and was > > surprised to find that it was not April yet. > > Advantages of this step are obvious, so I do not see any reasons joke. I don't find that the advantages are obvious at all, see below. > It almost does not add maintaince overhead costs, expect making sure that > XML integrity preserved, but allows to add dependencies/conflicts checking > for regular kernel configuration files I fail to see how XML allows to add dependencies/conflicts checking for the kernel configuration files. Nothing prevents you to implement it with the current file format, so this is a moot point. A more valid point would be that it may be easier to do it with XML. > and provide easy interface to tools which need to know about NOTES content. The current file format is already simple to deal with and the need for such tools is very limited, so this doesn't strike me as a big win. Now, on the other hand, converting kernel configuration files has huge disadvantages : - It would be a huge POLA violation. Kernel configuration files are this way since a very long time now, with relatively minor changes from time to time. The small benefits that converting to XML offers doesn't justify breaking POLA in my opinion. - It would make those files much harder to read, as already pointed out by other people. Generating text files from XML files is not an option, I want to be able to read my kernel configuration file while adding stuff to it. (It would be even messier to generate text files because we'll end up with more copies of the same kernel configuration...) - It would add significant build-time dependencies for building kernels. I don't want to need libexpat/libxml/whatever when building a kernel, even if we have it in the base source tree. In short, please don't do this unless you can demonstrate significant advantages of switching to XML format. Cheers, Maxime From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 04:35:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08E4B16A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:35:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from srv01.sparkit.no (srv01.sparkit.no [193.69.116.226]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B76843D4C for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 04:35:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@FreeBSD.org) Received: from ws ([193.69.114.88]) by srv01.sparkit.no (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2UCZRkg000309; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:35:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from eivind@FreeBSD.org) Received: from ws (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ws (8.12.9/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2UCYgnu011395; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:34:42 GMT (envelope-from eivind@ws) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by ws (8.12.9/8.12.10/Submit) id i2UCYgtV011280; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:34:42 GMT (envelope-from eivind) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:33:42 +0000 From: Eivind Eklund To: Alexey Zelkin Message-ID: <20040330123342.GD2645@FreeBSD.org> References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330084618.GA2645@FreeBSD.org> <20040330115644.GB59943@phantom.cris.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040330115644.GB59943@phantom.cris.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:35:33 -0000 On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 02:56:44PM +0300, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 08:46:18AM +0000, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > > > At this point I would like to start some kind of discussion and listen for > > > your ideas which features you'd like to see in application which will be > > > handling these XMLs. > > > > I'd like to not have XML, please. XML is hard to read - there is way > > too much repetition compared to content. If you have to change the > > You will be able to generate text-only LINT or NOTES and use old format > for reading. This helps somewhat, but we really need to have that auto-generated (ie, not an extra user action) to provide convenient access. > > syntax, please use something more lightweight than XML (or make > > absolutely sure we do not have to deal with the XML at the source level > > I do not see any point to invent any other formats in days when XML > become de-facto standard for such kind of information. Repeat: XML is hard to work with in a standard text editor. Not infinitely hard to work with, but hard to work with. This is *a* reason. Whether it is a sufficient reason for this particular design I don't know - I've not done a goals/options analysis for this case. There are clear costs to switching to XML - the format is worse to work with (in a text editor) than what we have today (thus losing developer attention on the file and eating time from those that do chose to work with it), it has issues with version control (the diffs are harder to read), it generates a flag day in the VC history (ie, annotate doesn't pass through it, etc), it requires retraining of users and change to the tools they have, it outdates documentation all over the web (and that outdated documentation will stick around), etc. If there are benefits to the switch (and to explictly selecting XML as a format) that exceed these costs: Sure, go for it. But *please* - evaluate those benefits carefully, *and seriously evaluate the costs and benefits of using a good format*. XML isn't a good format for something that will be treated as text by most readers/writers, "defactor standard" or not. The benefits of following a defacto standard might be high enough that it is a decent path even though the standard itself has problems - but grabbing for the standard on reflex is a bad idea when the standard is bad. > > in any way except when adding or removing devices/options to/from the > > source tree.) > > You will need to modify XML file only, This was a constraint on WHEN it could be needed to modify the XML file. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 05:04:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02DF516A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtaw6.prodigy.net (mtaw6.prodigy.net [64.164.98.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E786A43D2F; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:04:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (03d3975ac02b54d223530e2fd3d6b35f@adsl-67-115-73-128.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.115.73.128]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2UD3CS5024536; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:03:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A32FB52145; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:04:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 05:04:13 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Alexey Zelkin Message-ID: <20040330130413.GA32851@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330142810.B8258@gamplex.bde.org> <20040330115122.GA59943@phantom.cris.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PNTmBPCT7hxwcZjr" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040330115122.GA59943@phantom.cris.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:04:29 -0000 --PNTmBPCT7hxwcZjr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 02:51:22PM +0300, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > hi, >=20 > On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 02:32:46PM +1000, Bruce Evans wrote: > > On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > >=20 > > > This weekend I have got some spare time (due to illness) and in order= to get > > > some rest from current tasks decided to pass thru old TODO file. Most > > > interesting task got my attention was old item related to XMLificatio= n NOTES. > >=20 > > Sorry about your illness. > >=20 > > In case silence is considered approval ... I checked the date and was > > surprised to find that it was not April yet. >=20 > Advantages of this step are obvious, so I do not see any reasons joke. You're proposing a very radical change, so if you want to be taken seriously you need to first demonstrate radical benefits. Kris --PNTmBPCT7hxwcZjr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAaXBNWry0BWjoQKURAmh9AJ4iUc62Y0uXyY+pIOL/ZdM0ctRJHACgjsT5 RMZu6EQAg7bkXD2cC9AYCBM= =pJVo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PNTmBPCT7hxwcZjr-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 06:12:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 183AB16A4D0; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:12:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout11.sul.t-online.com (mailout11.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 870B943D45; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:12:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from fwd06.aul.t-online.de by mailout11.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1B8JyG-0006On-01; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:12:04 +0200 Received: from Andro-Beta.Leidinger.net (bdaNmvZaZeEr-Xrd4yfpJOi5mWNXfXJQDlSE6+mGmQTKnJxz-p84YA@[217.83.31.247]) by fmrl06.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 1B8Jxu-0qHUWK0; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:11:42 +0200 Received: from Magellan.Leidinger.net (Magellan.Leidinger.net [192.168.1.1]) i2UARRP7083539; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:27:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from Magellan.Leidinger.net (netchild@localhost [127.0.0.1]) i2UARV1k013147; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:27:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:27:31 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: Eivind Eklund Message-Id: <20040330122731.06e1be4c@Magellan.Leidinger.net> In-Reply-To: <20040330084618.GA2645@FreeBSD.org> References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330084618.GA2645@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.10claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Seen: false X-ID: bdaNmvZaZeEr-Xrd4yfpJOi5mWNXfXJQDlSE6+mGmQTKnJxz-p84YA@t-dialin.net cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Alexey Zelkin Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:12:06 -0000 On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:46:18 +0000 Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > > > At this point I would like to start some kind of discussion and listen for > > your ideas which features you'd like to see in application which will be > > handling these XMLs. > > I'd like to not have XML, please. XML is hard to read - there is way > too much repetition compared to content. If you have to change the > syntax, please use something more lightweight than XML (or make > absolutely sure we do not have to deal with the XML at the source level > in any way except when adding or removing devices/options to/from the > source tree.) As far as I understand his proposal, he just wants to convert NOTES. Your own kernel config stays the same. The benefit of this would be to be able to check your own config for missing or conflicting parts. In 4.x we don't have NOTES, and LINT is typically the file to read if you want to add devices or options. In 5.x you can't read LINT as easy as in 4.x, since it doesn't contains helpful comments. Reading NOTES isn't that easy either, since it is "cluttered" with hints and you have to read more than one file to see everything. The benefits I see with the effort Alexey is willing to invest is: - it should be easy to generate a LINT for compile testing - it should be easy to generate a "LINT" with comments for users (or any other kind of documentation with the purpose as mentioned above or with a purpose someone from the doc team can come up with) - it reduces the amount of help requests because of missing or conflicting options/devices - it allows to automate tasks, which we even can't think of at the moment We don't need XML to be able to do something like this, but XML can be used to do it. There are a lot of people which know how to work with XML (potential developers which may come up with very interesting ways to work with this kind of inforamtion), there are a lot of tools which allow to do various things with XML documents, and most importantly, the person which is willing to invest his time into this topic thinks he can do it better with XML than with something he has to invent/develop himself. >From a pragmatic point of view I like this. And it would be a pity, if such a feature would be talked down because a lot of people dislike the way it may be implemented (feel free to come up with a better implementation). Personally I can't come up with a better implementation which has the same public exposure regarding testing and feature-set needed of the tools involved, so I will shut up now. Bye, Alexander. -- I'm available to get hired. http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net GPG fingerprint = C518 BC70 E67F 143F BE91 3365 79E2 9C60 B006 3FE7 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 07:05:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43EC016A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:05:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08AD043D39; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:05:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id E1F415309; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:05:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 7FBAC5308; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:05:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 63AAC33CAA; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:05:24 +0200 (CEST) To: Alexey Zelkin References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:05:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> (Alexey Zelkin's message of "Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:40:48 +0300") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:05:34 -0000 Alexey Zelkin writes: > This weekend I have got some spare time (due to illness) and in > order to get some rest from current tasks decided to pass thru old > TODO file. Most interesting task got my attention was old item > related to XMLification NOTES. > > Important advantage of this step (IMO) is to provide possibility to > check dependency/conflicts of kernel configuration file to end users. > [...] NOTES is not intended as a list of supported device and options. We have src/sys/conf/files* and src/sys/conf/options* for that. Dependencies between loadable drivers and subsystems are documented in the source code (MODULE_DEPEND), though that information is not used at compile time. Dependencies that involve non-loadable drivers and subsystems are not documented anywhere (except sometimes in manual pages). It would not be hard to modify config(8) to obtain that information from e.g. src/sys/conf/depend*. I might even come up with a patch if I'm bored. NOTES used to be called LINT until Someone[tm] misguidedly decided to add hints to it (which made it unusable as a config file) instead of putting them in e.g. LINT.hints (just like GENERIC.hints for GENERIC). This was IMHO a mistake, but regardless, that file has two purposes: primarily, to server as a kernel config that includes as much code as possible to simplify automated build tests, and secondarily, to document some of the more obscure options (the less obscure ones are documented in manual pages). DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 14:02:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C18516A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:02:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74D8543D39; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:02:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2UM06xC000519; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:00:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i2UM05Ob000516; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:00:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:00:05 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Nik Clayton In-Reply-To: <20040327085537.GC33016@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where should devctl notifications be sent from? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:02:32 -0000 On Sat, 27 Mar 2004, Nik Clayton wrote: > Apologies in advance if this is too trivial for -arch. > > I'm trying to work out where it's appropriate to add devctl > notifications. > > The specific problem I'm trying to solve involves an iPod connected > through firewire. I'd like to be able to have devd be notified when the > iPod arrives, so that various processes can kick off automatically. In > an ideal world, I'll drop the iPod in the dock, and some backup > processes start, thereby allowing me to justify the purchase of a model > several sizes larger than I actually need :-) > > It looks like there are several places where the devctl_queue_data() and > related calls could be placed: > > firewire(4) -- when the device is plugged in > fwohci(4) -- when the interface arrives > sbp(4) -- when it's recognised as a mass storage device > geom(4) -- when geom creates the device (/dev/da2 (and da2s2) in my > case). Robert Watson has a patch that implements this. > devfs -- specifically, in make_dev(9) and destroy_dev(9) > > The limited research that I've done suggests that the most generic place > to put this code is inside make_dev(9) and destroy_dev(9). But this > seems so trivial that I can't believe no one else hasn't done the work, > so I figure there's probably something important that I'm missing. I think all of those are interesting choices, but let me give you my spiel on why I think GEOM is a good place to start. We have many different object namespaces in the kernel, based on the different subsystems and abstractions present there. For example, "fxp" is the name of a newbus device attached to (potentially) a PCI bus. It's also the name of a network interface device attached to the ifnet mechanism. It's also a device node in /dev. Likewise with storage devices, which can appear at many layers. We currently have a bogosity in devd: with ethernet devices, we run dhclient on an interface based on the interface attaching to newbus, not the interface arriving at the network layer. Likewise, if you write an automounter based on what's there today (the newbus event), there's actually a potential race or weakness: a device attaching to newbus doesn't mean it's ready for disk I/O. What I'd like to see happen is the notion of "subsystem" or "class" be introduced to the devctl namespace. Off the top of my head, the classes I'm interested in would be "newbus" (device attachment), "geom" (disk objects), and "ifnet" (network interface objects), and perhaps "devfs" (entries in /dev). The same name appearing at different layers has different interpretations, and requires different activities. Likewise, an object may exist only at a few layers (network pseudo-interfaces don't appear in newbus, for example; likewise, layered storage abstractions). There's another benefit to doing this: it becomes easier to write things like automounters and network interface handlers in userspace because class information is exposed from the kernel. Instead of "/dev/foo arrived", you get "A network interface named fxp0 has arrived"; likewise, instead of "/dev/foo has arrived", you get "A storage device named ad0.gbde has arrived". This makes it a lot easier to decide whether you should run dhclient (no need to hard-code interface names in devd.conf) or whether you run the automounter (no need for the auto-mounter to try and see if /dev/mem is a disk). There are other approaches that could be taken -- for example, newbus could learn to incorporate much more stuff (all stuff). However, that's a much more complex answer, requiring a lot of implementation changes in a lot of critical subsystems. Adding a new field to /dev/devctl's output is almost a no-op in complexity, and buys us a lot. It also helps us avoid answering the question you posed: we don't have to identify The One True Place, instead, we let important subsystems announce events in a way that makes sense for them, in their own namespace. Sure, you get a few more events (different layers reporting a related event), but you actually get a lot more information, and in a much more useful way. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 15:25:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B31216A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from phantom.cris.net (phantom.cris.net [212.110.130.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E32143D45 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:24:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phantom@FreeBSD.org.ua) Received: from phantom.cris.net (phantom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phantom.cris.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2UNOZZI065276; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:24:37 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from phantom@FreeBSD.org.ua) Received: (from phantom@localhost) by phantom.cris.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i2UNOUcW065275; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:24:30 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from phantom) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:24:29 +0300 From: Alexey Zelkin To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav Message-ID: <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.9-STABLE i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:25:04 -0000 hi, On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 05:05:24PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > Alexey Zelkin writes: > > This weekend I have got some spare time (due to illness) and in > > order to get some rest from current tasks decided to pass thru old > > TODO file. Most interesting task got my attention was old item > > related to XMLification NOTES. > > > > Important advantage of this step (IMO) is to provide possibility to > > check dependency/conflicts of kernel configuration file to end users. > > [...] > > NOTES is not intended as a list of supported device and options. We > have src/sys/conf/files* and src/sys/conf/options* for that. Strange. IMO LINT was existed for exactly this reason (plus meta-kernel configuration file used for compiling checks). LINT and NOTES aren't so different, so you can't say that purpose of NOTES is different than LINT. > Dependencies between loadable drivers and subsystems are documented in > the source code (MODULE_DEPEND), though that information is not used > at compile time. Dependencies that involve non-loadable drivers and > subsystems are not documented anywhere (except sometimes in manual > pages). It would not be hard to modify config(8) to obtain that > information from e.g. src/sys/conf/depend*. I might even come up with > a patch if I'm bored. I am not asking for patches, but if you would provide me general description how to realize that CPU_I386 conflicts with SMP and ADAPTIVE_MUTEXES depends on SMP (using your way) I would be happy and re-think my approach. -- /* Alexey Zelkin && Independent Contractor */ /* phantom(at)FreeBSD.org && http://www.FreeBSD.org/java */ /* phantom(at)cris.net && http://www.FreeBSD.org.ua/ */ From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 15:54:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD0E16A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:54:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDE443D3F; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:54:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id A1F4C5309; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:54:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 8F68E5308; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:54:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 244D133CAA; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:54:10 +0200 (CEST) To: Alexey Zelkin References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:54:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> (Alexey Zelkin's message of "Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:24:29 +0300") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:54:18 -0000 Alexey Zelkin writes: > On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 05:05:24PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > > NOTES is not intended as a list of supported device and options. We > > have src/sys/conf/files* and src/sys/conf/options* for that. > Strange. IMO LINT was existed for exactly this reason Your opinion does not matter. The purpose of LINT is to cover as much code as possible. Why do you think it's called LINT? (hint: man lint) > I am not asking for patches, but if you would provide me general > description how to realize that CPU_I386 conflicts with SMP and > ADAPTIVE_MUTEXES depends on SMP (using your way) I would be happy and > re-think my approach. CPU_I386 should not conflict with SMP, but a kernel build with both will be very slow. ADAPTIVE_MUTEXES does not depend on SMP, though it's a no-op unless SMP is enabled. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 21:25:30 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B91B816A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:25:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED60F43D66; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:25:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i2V5PRsg007701; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:25:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: Alexey Zelkin From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:40:48 +0300." <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:25:27 +0200 Message-ID: <7700.1080710727@critter.freebsd.dk> cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 05:25:30 -0000 In message <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net>, Alexey Zelkin writes: >hi, > >This weekend I have got some spare time (due to illness) and in order to get >some rest from current tasks decided to pass thru old TODO file. Most >interesting task got my attention was old item related to XMLification NOTES. > >Important advantage of this step (IMO) is to provide possibility to >check dependency/conflicts of kernel configuration file to end users. OK, I've held off saying my opinion on this, but here goes: We have three options on this: 1. We can recoil in horror and erect a stigma so large that nobody will ever again even think about this or dare go near this issue. That means we will lack a proper way of documenting dependencies and relationships in a way that can be used by a programatic frontend to kernel configuration. 2. We can say "The concept is actually sound, but lets see if we can find an even better way of doing it. That might actually move us forward on this issue, there is no guarantee that it will and more likely than not, it will not. 3. We can say, yeah, it is not perfect but it is a lot better than any thing we have seen, so by all means move on! That means that we move forward right now and that FreeBSD gets better and more userfriendly. IMO, unless somebody is willing to come up with a _better_ implementation now, Alexey should be allowed to move forward. So no, I don't particularly like XML, but I like the fact that somebody works on these kinds of issues, so Alexey have my full support to work on this, and if that means that XML is the format he settles on, then so be it. I don't want to see FreeBSD become a stagnant effort, and our kernel configuration tools could use a modernization which can make them more userfriendly to people who have not had 10 years experience with FreeBSD and who can remember all emails about kernel configuration discussions throughout the history of the project. Go for it Alexey! Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 21:28:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2386A16A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:28:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from gavriel.barak.net.il (gavriel.barak.net.il [212.150.48.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D32D43D1F for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:28:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alex@hightemplar.com) Received: from hydralisk ([62.90.149.2]) by gavriel.barak.net.il e5bc39f1001e7dfa47fa92d56cd12779) with ESMTP id <20040331052730.YDLR4642.gavriel@hydralisk> for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:27:30 +0200 From: Alex Keahan To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:27:48 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403310727.48043.alex@hightemplar.com> Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 05:28:14 -0000 On Wednesday 31 Mar 2004 1:54 am, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Alexey Zelkin writes: > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 05:05:24PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > > > NOTES is not intended as a list of supported device and options. We > > > have src/sys/conf/files* and src/sys/conf/options* for that. > > > > Strange. IMO LINT was existed for exactly this reason > > Your opinion does not matter. The purpose of LINT is to cover as much > code as possible. Why do you think it's called LINT? Why doesn't his opinion matter? Perhaps my opinion does not matter either, but as a developer and long-time FreeBSD user, I don't think that XMLification of NOTES is such a bad idea. Having said that, I can also see why some developers would be opposed to the idea. Apart from neophobia and an obligation to fight to keep Unix pure, simple and free from modern-day buzzword nonsense, the main reason for the hostility and ridicule with which Alexey's idea was treated = is the simple fact that an XML kernel configuration tool would likely shift the blame for misconfigured kernels from the end-user to the developer. Whereas previously a developer could add a new option or remove an existing one without having to think twice about it, a strict XML schema would force the developer to adhere to higher standards, explicitly evaluate and list the dependencies and possible incompatibilities and reconcile the new options with the multitude of the existing configuration possibilities. A good thing for the end-user? Certainly. At the moment, a user who has the misfortune of breaking his system by adding an "option FOO" to his kernel without the required corresponding magical "option BAR" will be told to "go read the mailing list archives", "go read UPDATING" or simply "go away". With an XML-based dependency system in place, the blame would be entirely on the developer who had forgotten to update the NOTES file or had done so incorrectly. An XML-based list of supported devices and options would also allow the creation of a kernel configuration tool, similar to what Linux has had for = as long as I can remember. Again, a good thing for the end user. As it currently stands, FreeBSD is not designed for users who don't read the mailing lists to keep track of changes. Their opinions simply do not matt= er. AK From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 21:38:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF3616A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:38:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77BF343D31; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:38:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i2V5cRNX007788; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:38:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: Robert Watson From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:00:05 CDT." Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:38:27 +0200 Message-ID: <7787.1080711507@critter.freebsd.dk> cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where should devctl notifications be sent from? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 05:38:29 -0000 In message , Robe rt Watson writes: >On Sat, 27 Mar 2004, Nik Clayton wrote: >What I'd like to see happen is the notion of "subsystem" or "class" be >introduced to the devctl namespace. [...] A well thought out and presented plan. I agree. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 21:44:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B9416A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:44:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6C943D55 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:44:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (2fa782828397a7f38d1b7eee7dc12919@adsl-67-115-73-128.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.115.73.128])i2V5iKbF014680; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:44:21 -0600 (CST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 02A8F52145; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:44:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:44:19 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Alex Keahan Message-ID: <20040331054419.GA44221@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> <200403310727.48043.alex@hightemplar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403310727.48043.alex@hightemplar.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: arch@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 05:44:22 -0000 --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 07:27:48AM +0200, Alex Keahan wrote: > On Wednesday 31 Mar 2004 1:54 am, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > > Alexey Zelkin writes: > > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 05:05:24PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > > > > NOTES is not intended as a list of supported device and options. We > > > > have src/sys/conf/files* and src/sys/conf/options* for that. > > > > > > Strange. IMO LINT was existed for exactly this reason > > > > Your opinion does not matter. The purpose of LINT is to cover as much > > code as possible. Why do you think it's called LINT? >=20 > Why doesn't his opinion matter? >=20 > Perhaps my opinion does not matter either, but as a developer and > long-time FreeBSD user, I don't think that XMLification of NOTES is > such a bad idea. >=20 > Having said that, I can also see why some developers would be opposed > to the idea. Apart from neophobia and an obligation to fight to keep > Unix pure, simple and free from modern-day buzzword nonsense, the main > reason for the hostility and ridicule with which Alexey's idea was treate= d is > the simple fact that an XML kernel configuration tool would likely shift = the > blame for misconfigured kernels from the end-user to the developer. What an odd comment. You sound pretty sure of yourself, though...on what basis do you make this assertion? > Whereas previously a developer could add a new option or remove an > existing one without having to think twice about it, a strict XML schema > would force the developer to adhere to higher standards, explicitly evalu= ate > and list the dependencies and possible incompatibilities and reconcile the > new options with the multitude of the existing configuration possibilitie= s. >=20 > A good thing for the end-user? Certainly. At the moment, a user who h= as > the misfortune of breaking his system by adding an "option FOO" to his > kernel without the required corresponding magical "option BAR" will be > told to "go read the mailing list archives", "go read UPDATING" or simply > "go away". >=20 > With an XML-based dependency system in place, the blame would be > entirely on the developer who had forgotten to update the NOTES file or > had done so incorrectly. >=20 > An XML-based list of supported devices and options would also allow the > creation of a kernel configuration tool, similar to what Linux has had fo= r as > long as I can remember. Again, a good thing for the end user. Don't change the topic. XML is not required for any of that, and someone could just as easily write those tools without it. Similarly, it's just as wrong to assume that changing to XML will magically cause all these tools to appear. Kris --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAalqzWry0BWjoQKURApX9AKDNH/Gq2u8QxSu8wrnozJJUdg2kbgCgoKd+ bake6g5nS2+Q1h5lr3Hc3mE= =3Gm3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 21:48:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1B9016A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:48:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B7CD43D2F; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:48:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i2V5m4g1007913; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:48:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: arch@freebsd.org From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:44:19 -0800." <20040331054419.GA44221@xor.obsecurity.org> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:48:04 +0200 Message-ID: <7912.1080712084@critter.freebsd.dk> cc: Alex Keahan cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 05:48:08 -0000 In message <20040331054419.GA44221@xor.obsecurity.org>, Kris Kennaway writes: >Don't change the topic. XML is not required for any of that, and >someone could just as easily write those tools without it. Similarly, >it's just as wrong to assume that changing to XML will magically cause >all these tools to appear. It is true that XML is not required, but XML is the format chosen by the developer who has actually spent time on this, so I don't think you have a particularly strong voice to critize his choice unless you plan to spend your own time working on this issue. Why the f**k are we so quick to shoot our own developers in the back in this project ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 21:48:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1B9016A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:48:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B7CD43D2F; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:48:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i2V5m4g1007913; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:48:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: arch@freebsd.org From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:44:19 -0800." <20040331054419.GA44221@xor.obsecurity.org> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:48:04 +0200 Message-ID: <7912.1080712084@critter.freebsd.dk> cc: Alex Keahan cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 05:48:08 -0000 In message <20040331054419.GA44221@xor.obsecurity.org>, Kris Kennaway writes: >Don't change the topic. XML is not required for any of that, and >someone could just as easily write those tools without it. Similarly, >it's just as wrong to assume that changing to XML will magically cause >all these tools to appear. It is true that XML is not required, but XML is the format chosen by the developer who has actually spent time on this, so I don't think you have a particularly strong voice to critize his choice unless you plan to spend your own time working on this issue. Why the f**k are we so quick to shoot our own developers in the back in this project ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 22:07:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A462E16A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58DD543D3F; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:07:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (380c23419cb58bd9b9398cafedffbb6d@adsl-67-115-73-128.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.115.73.128])i2V67ObF011798; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:07:25 -0600 (CST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A9F3B52145; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:07:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:07:23 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20040331060723.GA44504@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20040331054419.GA44221@xor.obsecurity.org> <7912.1080712084@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7912.1080712084@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Alex Keahan cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: arch@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:07:26 -0000 --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 07:48:04AM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20040331054419.GA44221@xor.obsecurity.org>, Kris Kennaway wri= tes: >=20 >=20 > >Don't change the topic. XML is not required for any of that, and > >someone could just as easily write those tools without it. Similarly, > >it's just as wrong to assume that changing to XML will magically cause > >all these tools to appear. >=20 > It is true that XML is not required, but XML is the format chosen > by the developer who has actually spent time on this, so I don't > think you have a particularly strong voice to critize his choice > unless you plan to spend your own time working on this issue. >=20 > Why the f**k are we so quick to shoot our own developers in the > back in this project ? Alexey's email did not mention the existence of a prototype implementation, only possibilities for future work. Go back to my previous response to him, where I pointed out that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and if he wants people to accept the initial step he needs to also provide a sufficiently good proof of concept to justify the pain of transition and maintenance. For example, I'd love a kernel dependency checker -- you may not be aware that I spend a lot of time answering support emails from people who didn't read the comments in NOTES or GENERIC about required dependencies of things like umass (that one comes up on questions@ at least once a week). It's the "if you build it, they will come" that I don't like: as you well know, FreeBSD does not have a good history with people making partial architectural changes under the assumption that someone else will finish the job later. If Alexey carries this to completion and comes up with a useful, usable set of tools, I think that's great! Kris --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAamAbWry0BWjoQKURAtiqAKDnRDUTZXQ88HbNKmJGee6kombmRACfXW4x lilDmKt7DKfsI1l5bAmgqn4= =dZdK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 22:07:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A462E16A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58DD543D3F; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:07:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (380c23419cb58bd9b9398cafedffbb6d@adsl-67-115-73-128.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.115.73.128])i2V67ObF011798; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:07:25 -0600 (CST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A9F3B52145; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:07:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:07:23 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20040331060723.GA44504@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20040331054419.GA44221@xor.obsecurity.org> <7912.1080712084@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7912.1080712084@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Alex Keahan cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: arch@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:07:26 -0000 --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 07:48:04AM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20040331054419.GA44221@xor.obsecurity.org>, Kris Kennaway wri= tes: >=20 >=20 > >Don't change the topic. XML is not required for any of that, and > >someone could just as easily write those tools without it. Similarly, > >it's just as wrong to assume that changing to XML will magically cause > >all these tools to appear. >=20 > It is true that XML is not required, but XML is the format chosen > by the developer who has actually spent time on this, so I don't > think you have a particularly strong voice to critize his choice > unless you plan to spend your own time working on this issue. >=20 > Why the f**k are we so quick to shoot our own developers in the > back in this project ? Alexey's email did not mention the existence of a prototype implementation, only possibilities for future work. Go back to my previous response to him, where I pointed out that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and if he wants people to accept the initial step he needs to also provide a sufficiently good proof of concept to justify the pain of transition and maintenance. For example, I'd love a kernel dependency checker -- you may not be aware that I spend a lot of time answering support emails from people who didn't read the comments in NOTES or GENERIC about required dependencies of things like umass (that one comes up on questions@ at least once a week). It's the "if you build it, they will come" that I don't like: as you well know, FreeBSD does not have a good history with people making partial architectural changes under the assumption that someone else will finish the job later. If Alexey carries this to completion and comes up with a useful, usable set of tools, I think that's great! Kris --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAamAbWry0BWjoQKURAtiqAKDnRDUTZXQ88HbNKmJGee6kombmRACfXW4x lilDmKt7DKfsI1l5bAmgqn4= =dZdK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 22:13:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980F416A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:13:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC2A43D39; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:13:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i2V6DGIr008023; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:13:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: arch@freebsd.org From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:07:23 -0800." <20040331060723.GA44504@xor.obsecurity.org> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:13:16 +0200 Message-ID: <8022.1080713596@critter.freebsd.dk> cc: Alex Keahan cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:13:20 -0000 In message <20040331060723.GA44504@xor.obsecurity.org>, Kris Kennaway writes: >It's the "if you build it, they will come" that I don't like: as you >well know, FreeBSD does not have a good history with people making >partial architectural changes under the assumption that someone else >will finish the job later. If Alexey carries this to completion and >comes up with a useful, usable set of tools, I think that's great! Then I think you should consider the tone of your email, because it was pretty far from anything I would call encouraging. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 22:13:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980F416A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:13:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC2A43D39; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:13:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i2V6DGIr008023; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:13:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: arch@freebsd.org From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:07:23 -0800." <20040331060723.GA44504@xor.obsecurity.org> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:13:16 +0200 Message-ID: <8022.1080713596@critter.freebsd.dk> cc: Alex Keahan cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:13:20 -0000 In message <20040331060723.GA44504@xor.obsecurity.org>, Kris Kennaway writes: >It's the "if you build it, they will come" that I don't like: as you >well know, FreeBSD does not have a good history with people making >partial architectural changes under the assumption that someone else >will finish the job later. If Alexey carries this to completion and >comes up with a useful, usable set of tools, I think that's great! Then I think you should consider the tone of your email, because it was pretty far from anything I would call encouraging. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 22:16:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA0316A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtaw6.prodigy.net (mtaw6.prodigy.net [64.164.98.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9B743D3F; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:16:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (ff18ad7a9096f00d3a282058c7d2ebf1@adsl-67-115-73-128.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.115.73.128]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2V6FDS5022085; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:15:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BDE0752145; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:16:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:16:18 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20040331061618.GA44796@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20040331060723.GA44504@xor.obsecurity.org> <8022.1080713596@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8022.1080713596@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Alex Keahan cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: arch@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:16:21 -0000 --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 08:13:16AM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20040331060723.GA44504@xor.obsecurity.org>, Kris Kennaway wri= tes: >=20 > >It's the "if you build it, they will come" that I don't like: as you > >well know, FreeBSD does not have a good history with people making > >partial architectural changes under the assumption that someone else > >will finish the job later. If Alexey carries this to completion and > >comes up with a useful, usable set of tools, I think that's great! >=20 > Then I think you should consider the tone of your email, because it > was pretty far from anything I would call encouraging. My reply was directed to Alex, who made a number of divergent assertions, and not to Alexey. Kris --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAamIyWry0BWjoQKURArZEAKDJh+DrO7mp0bN5GKxYmFas/A1KnACgkc+9 OAV1AI5a6d0KiFEt7V62ex4= =NVx2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 22:16:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA0316A4CE; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtaw6.prodigy.net (mtaw6.prodigy.net [64.164.98.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9B743D3F; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:16:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (ff18ad7a9096f00d3a282058c7d2ebf1@adsl-67-115-73-128.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.115.73.128]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2V6FDS5022085; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:15:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BDE0752145; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:16:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:16:18 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20040331061618.GA44796@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20040331060723.GA44504@xor.obsecurity.org> <8022.1080713596@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8022.1080713596@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Alex Keahan cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: arch@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:16:21 -0000 --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 08:13:16AM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20040331060723.GA44504@xor.obsecurity.org>, Kris Kennaway wri= tes: >=20 > >It's the "if you build it, they will come" that I don't like: as you > >well know, FreeBSD does not have a good history with people making > >partial architectural changes under the assumption that someone else > >will finish the job later. If Alexey carries this to completion and > >comes up with a useful, usable set of tools, I think that's great! >=20 > Then I think you should consider the tone of your email, because it > was pretty far from anything I would call encouraging. My reply was directed to Alex, who made a number of divergent assertions, and not to Alexey. Kris --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAamIyWry0BWjoQKURArZEAKDJh+DrO7mp0bN5GKxYmFas/A1KnACgkc+9 OAV1AI5a6d0KiFEt7V62ex4= =NVx2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 23:11:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E75716A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from phantom.cris.net (phantom.cris.net [212.110.130.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1363A43D46 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:11:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phantom@FreeBSD.org.ua) Received: from phantom.cris.net (phantom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phantom.cris.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2V7BHZI068058; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:11:17 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from phantom@FreeBSD.org.ua) Received: (from phantom@localhost) by phantom.cris.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i2V7BGJ1068057; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:11:16 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from phantom) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:11:15 +0300 From: Alexey Zelkin To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav Message-ID: <20040331071115.GB67752@phantom.cris.net> References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.9-STABLE i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:11:23 -0000 hi, On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 01:54:10AM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > Alexey Zelkin writes: > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 05:05:24PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > > > NOTES is not intended as a list of supported device and options. We > > > have src/sys/conf/files* and src/sys/conf/options* for that. > > Strange. IMO LINT was existed for exactly this reason > > Your opinion does not matter. The purpose of LINT is to cover as much > code as possible. Why do you think it's called LINT? Hey, please stop such kind of quoting. Maybe you have forgot to read *complete* paragraph of my previous letter ? Especially part of paragraph you deleted while quoting. And according to "my opinion" (in RELENG_4 terms): : $ wc -l LINT : 2886 LINT : $ grep ^# LINT | wc -l : 1916 66.4% (or 2/3) of LINT are comments. So, my opinion is based on current situation. > (hint: man lint) Thanks for the hint. It was helpful hint back in 1996 then I started to use lint(1). > > I am not asking for patches, but if you would provide me general > > description how to realize that CPU_I386 conflicts with SMP and > > ADAPTIVE_MUTEXES depends on SMP (using your way) I would be happy and > > re-think my approach. > > CPU_I386 should not conflict with SMP, but a kernel build with both > will be very slow. Is it hard to check facts before answering ? $FreeBSD: src/sys/i386/i386/mp_machdep.c,v 1.230 2004/01/24 19:52:47 jeff Exp $ : #if defined(I386_CPU) && !defined(COMPILING_LINT) : #error SMP not supported with I386_CPU : #endif : #ifndef DEV_APIC : #error The apic device is required for SMP, add "device apic" to your config file. : #endif : #if defined(CPU_DISABLE_CMPXCHG) && !defined(COMPILING_LINT) : #error SMP not supported with CPU_DISABLE_CMPXCHG : #endif So, I repeat my question "how (based on src/sys/conf/* files) detect these conflicts and dependencies" ? I need conceptual answer only. PS: Answer just for answer is not worth to answer... -- /* Alexey Zelkin && Independent Contractor */ /* phantom(at)FreeBSD.org && http://www.FreeBSD.org/java */ /* phantom(at)cris.net && http://www.FreeBSD.org.ua/ */ From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 01:30:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 251DE16A4CE; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from canning.wemm.org (canning.wemm.org [192.203.228.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD2943D4C; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:30:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@evilpete.dyndns.org) Received: from fw.wemm.org (canning.wemm.org [192.203.228.65]) by canning.wemm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4EFB2A8D5; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:30:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@overcee.wemm.org) Received: from overcee.wemm.org (overcee.wemm.org [10.0.0.3]) by fw.wemm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 879A8E29D; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:30:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@overcee.wemm.org) Received: from overcee.wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.wemm.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i2V9TIgo038652; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:29:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@overcee.wemm.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by overcee.wemm.org (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i2V9TCne038649; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:29:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter) From: Peter Wemm To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:29:12 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> In-Reply-To: <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403310129.12916.peter@wemm.org> cc: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav cc: Alexey Zelkin cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:30:07 -0000 On Tuesday 30 March 2004 03:24 pm, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 05:05:24PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > > Alexey Zelkin writes: > > > This weekend I have got some spare time (due to illness) and in > > > order to get some rest from current tasks decided to pass thru > > > old TODO file. Most interesting task got my attention was old > > > item related to XMLification NOTES. > > > > > > Important advantage of this step (IMO) is to provide possibility > > > to check dependency/conflicts of kernel configuration file to end > > > users. [...] [...] > > Dependencies between loadable drivers and subsystems are documented > > in the source code (MODULE_DEPEND), though that information is not > > used at compile time. Dependencies that involve non-loadable > > drivers and subsystems are not documented anywhere (except > > sometimes in manual pages). It would not be hard to modify > > config(8) to obtain that information from e.g. > > src/sys/conf/depend*. These are important points. The runtime dependency information is encoded in the source in order to allow for free-form packaging of objects that self-describe their dependencies. We've learned the hard way that having information duplicated in multiple places leads to things getting out of sync. For what its worth, I personally find raw XML to be visually offensive. Machine readability ease doesn't make up for the developer pain in trying to edit/maintain it in this form. I personally would avoid it like the plague. (And thats an interesting question to ask.. Who are the people that you're expecting to maintain the XML format files?) As a side note (but related), I've just finished the first part of a refurbished module loader. I had to do this for amd64, but it has benefits elsewhere. The main change is switching from 'cc -shared' format .ko files to 'ld -r' (relocatable) .ko files. The big consequence of this is that it becomes trivial to build a kernel out of .ko files. (Or at least embed .ko files into the kernel). The new module loader stuff allows this sort of thing: hammer# cd /boot/kernel hammer# ld -r -o usbstuff.ko u*.ko hammer# ls -l usbstuff.ko -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 662202 Mar 31 01:12 usbstuff.ko You can then kldload the usbstuff.ko file and get all of the internal modules at once (I can't give an example of that part because I just paniced the machine :-] ). Anyway, you can't do this with the present .ko format. To take full advantage of this flexibility, I'd planned to do a completely new config(8) that used an extended files.*/options.* file set. I wrote group of named.conf-style parsers for it a few years ago but never did anything with them. config(8) was replaced by a couple of standalone parsers that converted the human-readable tables into something that was easy for perl (it was in the tree at the time) scripts to process and generate the kernel and Module makefiles on the fly. What I was working on was building everything into .ka files and assembling the kernel and modules according to the packing list in your config file. [No Bruce, it isn't April 1st here yet] GENERIC included a list of things to go in the static kernel and the generic modules list. All the double compiling went away. I had a huge amount of work to do though. The second part of the work I have planned is to enable the kernel to have dependencies. eg: link the kernel without either the traditional atpc nor the acpi code and do some sort of HAL layer and select the best one at loader(8) time. (It doesn't have to do it this way, but its an example of what could be done. It makes the acpi startup code a lot less painful.) This requires a bit of care and thought though. But this leads to interesting questions.. How do you specify run time dependencies vs static kernel link dependencies? Suppose if_foo.ko has symbol reference dependencies on miibus.ko. There is no reason why you should be prevented from embedding if_foo.ko into the static kernel and loading miibus.ko at boot time to satisfy the static kernel's symbol dependencies. miibus is a bad example, because it is a poorly behaved newbus citizen and makes symbol references that should be done with method calls instead. We have runtime dependencies that do not involve symbols. newbus device stacks do not make promiscuous symbol references to each other, but can only function when all the components are present. For example, you can have a device driver with pci, isa, eisa, cardbus and pccard attachments, all in the kernel. It does *not* need eisa, cardbus, pccard and pci to be present in order to use it on an isa-only system. You could concievably load eisa *after* the driver example above, and it all automagically works. If anybody breaks this, I'll personally hunt them down and shoot them. Anyway, perhaps the thing for me to do is find the parsers and scripts that I wrote a few years ago and freshen them up for some demos. -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 01:30:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 251DE16A4CE; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from canning.wemm.org (canning.wemm.org [192.203.228.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD2943D4C; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:30:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@evilpete.dyndns.org) Received: from fw.wemm.org (canning.wemm.org [192.203.228.65]) by canning.wemm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4EFB2A8D5; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:30:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@overcee.wemm.org) Received: from overcee.wemm.org (overcee.wemm.org [10.0.0.3]) by fw.wemm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 879A8E29D; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:30:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@overcee.wemm.org) Received: from overcee.wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.wemm.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i2V9TIgo038652; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:29:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@overcee.wemm.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by overcee.wemm.org (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i2V9TCne038649; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:29:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter) From: Peter Wemm To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:29:12 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> In-Reply-To: <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403310129.12916.peter@wemm.org> cc: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav cc: Alexey Zelkin cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:30:07 -0000 On Tuesday 30 March 2004 03:24 pm, Alexey Zelkin wrote: > On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 05:05:24PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > > Alexey Zelkin writes: > > > This weekend I have got some spare time (due to illness) and in > > > order to get some rest from current tasks decided to pass thru > > > old TODO file. Most interesting task got my attention was old > > > item related to XMLification NOTES. > > > > > > Important advantage of this step (IMO) is to provide possibility > > > to check dependency/conflicts of kernel configuration file to end > > > users. [...] [...] > > Dependencies between loadable drivers and subsystems are documented > > in the source code (MODULE_DEPEND), though that information is not > > used at compile time. Dependencies that involve non-loadable > > drivers and subsystems are not documented anywhere (except > > sometimes in manual pages). It would not be hard to modify > > config(8) to obtain that information from e.g. > > src/sys/conf/depend*. These are important points. The runtime dependency information is encoded in the source in order to allow for free-form packaging of objects that self-describe their dependencies. We've learned the hard way that having information duplicated in multiple places leads to things getting out of sync. For what its worth, I personally find raw XML to be visually offensive. Machine readability ease doesn't make up for the developer pain in trying to edit/maintain it in this form. I personally would avoid it like the plague. (And thats an interesting question to ask.. Who are the people that you're expecting to maintain the XML format files?) As a side note (but related), I've just finished the first part of a refurbished module loader. I had to do this for amd64, but it has benefits elsewhere. The main change is switching from 'cc -shared' format .ko files to 'ld -r' (relocatable) .ko files. The big consequence of this is that it becomes trivial to build a kernel out of .ko files. (Or at least embed .ko files into the kernel). The new module loader stuff allows this sort of thing: hammer# cd /boot/kernel hammer# ld -r -o usbstuff.ko u*.ko hammer# ls -l usbstuff.ko -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 662202 Mar 31 01:12 usbstuff.ko You can then kldload the usbstuff.ko file and get all of the internal modules at once (I can't give an example of that part because I just paniced the machine :-] ). Anyway, you can't do this with the present .ko format. To take full advantage of this flexibility, I'd planned to do a completely new config(8) that used an extended files.*/options.* file set. I wrote group of named.conf-style parsers for it a few years ago but never did anything with them. config(8) was replaced by a couple of standalone parsers that converted the human-readable tables into something that was easy for perl (it was in the tree at the time) scripts to process and generate the kernel and Module makefiles on the fly. What I was working on was building everything into .ka files and assembling the kernel and modules according to the packing list in your config file. [No Bruce, it isn't April 1st here yet] GENERIC included a list of things to go in the static kernel and the generic modules list. All the double compiling went away. I had a huge amount of work to do though. The second part of the work I have planned is to enable the kernel to have dependencies. eg: link the kernel without either the traditional atpc nor the acpi code and do some sort of HAL layer and select the best one at loader(8) time. (It doesn't have to do it this way, but its an example of what could be done. It makes the acpi startup code a lot less painful.) This requires a bit of care and thought though. But this leads to interesting questions.. How do you specify run time dependencies vs static kernel link dependencies? Suppose if_foo.ko has symbol reference dependencies on miibus.ko. There is no reason why you should be prevented from embedding if_foo.ko into the static kernel and loading miibus.ko at boot time to satisfy the static kernel's symbol dependencies. miibus is a bad example, because it is a poorly behaved newbus citizen and makes symbol references that should be done with method calls instead. We have runtime dependencies that do not involve symbols. newbus device stacks do not make promiscuous symbol references to each other, but can only function when all the components are present. For example, you can have a device driver with pci, isa, eisa, cardbus and pccard attachments, all in the kernel. It does *not* need eisa, cardbus, pccard and pci to be present in order to use it on an isa-only system. You could concievably load eisa *after* the driver example above, and it all automagically works. If anybody breaks this, I'll personally hunt them down and shoot them. Anyway, perhaps the thing for me to do is find the parsers and scripts that I wrote a few years ago and freshen them up for some demos. -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 03:40:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EDC716A4CE; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 03:40:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2488B43D1F; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 03:40:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id B8F9A530D; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:40:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 95595530C; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:40:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 7EBDB33CAA; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:40:36 +0200 (CEST) To: Alexey Zelkin References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> <20040331071115.GB67752@phantom.cris.net> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:40:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20040331071115.GB67752@phantom.cris.net> (Alexey Zelkin's message of "Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:11:15 +0300") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:40:44 -0000 Alexey Zelkin writes: > Hey, please stop such kind of quoting. Maybe you have forgot to read > *complete* paragraph of my previous letter ? Especially part of > paragraph you deleted while quoting. I don't see that the rest of the paragraph changes the meaning in any way. > So, I repeat my question "how (based on src/sys/conf/* files) detect these > conflicts and dependencies" ? I need conceptual answer only. Currently, you can't, but that doesn't mean breaking NOTES is a good idea, even if NOTES is already a little broken. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 04:48:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 710D416A4CE for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:48:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02DA243D45 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:48:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 8C60C530D; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:48:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 3F0A6530C; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:48:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id E101B33CAA; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:48:44 +0200 (CEST) To: Alex Keahan References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> <200403310727.48043.alex@hightemplar.com> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:48:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200403310727.48043.alex@hightemplar.com> (Alex Keahan's message of "Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:27:48 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:48:53 -0000 Alex Keahan writes: > On Wednesday 31 Mar 2004 1:54 am, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > Alexey Zelkin writes: > > > Strange. IMO LINT was existed for exactly this reason > > Your opinion does not matter. The purpose of LINT is to cover as much > > code as possible. Why do you think it's called LINT? > Why doesn't his opinion matter? Because this is a question of fact, not of opinion. Alexey's opinion of what NOTES might be useful for does not change the fact of what it was created for. > Perhaps my opinion does not matter either, but as a developer and > long-time FreeBSD user, I don't think that XMLification of NOTES is > such a bad idea. that is not what "your opinion does not matter" referred to. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 11:46:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC39516A4E0 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:46:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 845BA43D41 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:46:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (qmail 18734 invoked from network); 31 Mar 2004 19:46:53 -0000 Received: from dsl017-045-168.spk4.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO hydrogen.funkthat.com) ([69.17.45.168]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 31 Mar 2004 19:46:53 -0000 Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (wtcfqp@localhost.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1])i2VJkqOE008494; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:46:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i2VJkpZI008493; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:46:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:46:51 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Peter Wemm Message-ID: <20040331194651.GX567@funkthat.com> Mail-Followup-To: Peter Wemm , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> <200403310129.12916.peter@wemm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403310129.12916.peter@wemm.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:46:53 -0000 Peter Wemm wrote this message on Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 01:29 -0800: > As a side note (but related), I've just finished the first part of a > refurbished module loader. I had to do this for amd64, but it has > benefits elsewhere. The main change is switching from 'cc -shared' > format .ko files to 'ld -r' (relocatable) .ko files. The big > consequence of this is that it becomes trivial to build a kernel out > of .ko files. (Or at least embed .ko files into the kernel). Yah! You go Peter! That's what I've beeing envisioning of the kld system shortly after it was integrated... This will also make kernel compiles easier since we can then just build all the modules ONCE, and build our static kernel from that.. no longer do we need to compile almost everything twice.. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 12:56:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB7716A4CE for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.speakeasy.net (mail2.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C48743D39 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:56:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (qmail 22614 invoked from network); 31 Mar 2004 20:56:05 -0000 Received: from dsl027-160-063.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) encrypted SMTP for ; 31 Mar 2004 20:56:05 -0000 Received: from 10.50.40.205 (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2VKsMDJ048661; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:55:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) From: John Baldwin To: arch@FreeBSD.org Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:05:18 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200403311105.19088.john@baldwin.cx> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on server.baldwin.cx cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: Alexey Zelkin Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:56:06 -0000 On Tuesday 30 March 2004 06:54 pm, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Alexey Zelkin writes: > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 05:05:24PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > > > NOTES is not intended as a list of supported device and options. We > > > have src/sys/conf/files* and src/sys/conf/options* for that. > > > > Strange. IMO LINT was existed for exactly this reason > > Your opinion does not matter. The purpose of LINT is to cover as much > code as possible. Why do you think it's called LINT? > > (hint: man lint) > > > I am not asking for patches, but if you would provide me general > > description how to realize that CPU_I386 conflicts with SMP and > > ADAPTIVE_MUTEXES depends on SMP (using your way) I would be happy and > > re-think my approach. > > CPU_I386 should not conflict with SMP, but a kernel build with both > will be very slow. No, it does conflict. There's no cmpxchg on i386 and no one has had the=20 desire or time to emulate one for 386 machines. Doing so would be a waste = in=20 my opinion as well. =2D-=20 John Baldwin <>< http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" =3D http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 21:12:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595B116A4CE; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:12:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout1.pacific.net.au (mailout1.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.84]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF0C43D2F; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:11:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bde@zeta.org.au) Received: from mailproxy1.pacific.net.au (mailproxy1.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.86])i315Bg4u002769; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:11:42 +1000 Received: from gamplex.bde.org (katana.zip.com.au [61.8.7.246]) i315BdGQ026063; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:11:40 +1000 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:11:38 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: bde@gamplex.bde.org To: John Baldwin In-Reply-To: <200403311105.19088.john@baldwin.cx> Message-ID: <20040401145536.A5418@gamplex.bde.org> References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <20040330232429.GA65170@phantom.cris.net> <200403311105.19088.john@baldwin.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Alexey Zelkin cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 05:12:00 -0000 On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, John Baldwin wrote: > On Tuesday 30 March 2004 06:54 pm, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > CPU_I386 should not conflict with SMP, but a kernel build with both > > will be very slow. > > No, it does conflict. There's no cmpxchg on i386 and no one has had the > desire or time to emulate one for 386 machines. Doing so would be a wast= e in > my opinion as well. des only claimed that it "should not". Emulating cmpxchg might make a kernel built with both slow, but the current CPU_I386 only adds a tiny amount of slowness. It just doesn't work on multi-CPU systems if multiple CPUs are actually used. Does it actually conflict in practice (except for the forced #error) if the hardware is UP? jhb's APIC changes made configuring with SMP not require APIC, so SMP kernels work on UP systems. Configuring with I386_CPU shouldn't affect this, but it does because of the forced #error at compile time. Bruce From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 21:15:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F47916A4CE for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:15:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout2.pacific.net.au (mailout2.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE75343D41 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:15:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bde@zeta.org.au) Received: from mailproxy2.pacific.net.au (mailproxy2.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.87])i315FK5v012298; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:15:20 +1000 Received: from gamplex.bde.org (katana.zip.com.au [61.8.7.246]) i315FHsg022933; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:15:18 +1000 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:15:17 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: bde@gamplex.bde.org To: John-Mark Gurney In-Reply-To: <20040331194651.GX567@funkthat.com> Message-ID: <20040401151146.X5418@gamplex.bde.org> References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <200403310129.12916.peter@wemm.org> <20040331194651.GX567@funkthat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 05:15:31 -0000 On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > Peter Wemm wrote this message on Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 01:29 -0800: > > As a side note (but related), I've just finished the first part of a > > refurbished module loader. I had to do this for amd64, but it has > > benefits elsewhere. The main change is switching from 'cc -shared' > > format .ko files to 'ld -r' (relocatable) .ko files. The big > > consequence of this is that it becomes trivial to build a kernel out > > of .ko files. (Or at least embed .ko files into the kernel). > > Yah! You go Peter! That's what I've beeing envisioning of the kld > system shortly after it was integrated... > > This will also make kernel compiles easier since we can then just build > all the modules ONCE, and build our static kernel from that.. no longer > do we need to compile almost everything twice.. We never needed to compile almost everything twice. I used NO_MODULES=yes in /etc/make.conf to build the correct number of modules (0). Bruce From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 10:12:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6173316A4CF for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33CEC43D41 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:12:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 4616 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 18:12:16 -0000 Received: from dsl027-160-063.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) encrypted SMTP for ; 1 Apr 2004 18:12:16 -0000 Received: from 10.50.40.205 (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i31IC2DF054115; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:12:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) From: John Baldwin To: Bruce Evans Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:23:35 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <20040328094048.GA40406@phantom.cris.net> <200403311105.19088.john@baldwin.cx> <20040401145536.A5418@gamplex.bde.org> In-Reply-To: <20040401145536.A5418@gamplex.bde.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200404011123.36337.jhb@FreeBSD.org> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on server.baldwin.cx cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Alexey Zelkin cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: CFD: XMLification of NOTES X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:12:17 -0000 On Thursday 01 April 2004 12:11 am, Bruce Evans wrote: > On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, John Baldwin wrote: > > On Tuesday 30 March 2004 06:54 pm, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > > CPU_I386 should not conflict with SMP, but a kernel build with both > > > will be very slow. > > > > No, it does conflict. There's no cmpxchg on i386 and no one has had the > > desire or time to emulate one for 386 machines. Doing so would be a > > waste in my opinion as well. > > des only claimed that it "should not". > > Emulating cmpxchg might make a kernel built with both slow, but the > current CPU_I386 only adds a tiny amount of slowness. It just doesn't > work on multi-CPU systems if multiple CPUs are actually used. > > Does it actually conflict in practice (except for the forced #error) > if the hardware is UP? jhb's APIC changes made configuring with SMP > not require APIC, so SMP kernels work on UP systems. Configuring with > I386_CPU shouldn't affect this, but it does because of the forced #error > at compile time. > > Bruce Hmm. Well, if the hardware is UP the kernel still does 'cmpxchg'=20 instructions, so you'd still have to emulate cmpxchg for the kernel. There= 's=20 another problem in that I think Peter changed the pmap to make using invltl= b=20 in place of invlpg be a compile time decision rather than a runtime decisio= n. If someone wants to write an in-kernel cmpxchg emulator then I wouldn't min= d=20 having I386_CPU just turn on the extra runtime checks for invltlb vs. invlp= g. =2D-=20 John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" =3D http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 12:42:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 389C016A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from root.org (root.org [67.118.192.226]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1BABC43D46 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:42:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@root.org) Received: (qmail 3232 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Apr 2004 20:42:51 -0000 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:42:51 -0800 (PST) From: Nate Lawson To: John Baldwin In-Reply-To: <200402041047.17902.jhb@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: <20040402123025.E3097@root.org> References: <20040203.131641.26968129.imp@bsdimp.com> <20040203145412.P33636@root.org> <200402041047.17902.jhb@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: newbus ioport usage X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:42:50 -0000 On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, John Baldwin wrote: > On Tuesday 03 February 2004 06:03 pm, Nate Lawson wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, M. Warner Losh wrote: > > > : In the future, I'll make two passes, first to detect system resource > > > : objects (PNP0C01 and PNP0C02) and reserve resources and the second to > > > : actually probe acpi devices. I'd rather wait for newbus to do this > > > : multi-pass approach than attempt it myself with hacks to try to > > > : localize it. > > > > > > Yes. We need a better discovery phase followed by an attach phase. I > > > don't know if this is a newbus API change yet or not. I can see it > > > being done with most of the APIs that are in place now, but a few > > > tweaks might be in order. > > > > I could implement this in acpi since we already make two attach passes for > > busses like PCI. Perhaps the general case could be a flags argument that > > is passed through to the attach handler that says what pass this is. > > We need to allow something that allows legacy drivers to work out of the box > at the last pass and it needs to be more flexible than just special casing > PCI/ACPI resource allocation. I want more than just 2 passes btw: > > pass 1: enumerate busses including bridges to further busses > - this would possibly include some rough resource allocation where each bus > would allocate space from its parent that it hands out to children > - this pass might also include things like pnpbios and acpi system resource > drivers > pass 2: enumerate interrupt source providers (i.e. PICs) > - after this, interrupt handlers should be able to run, though perhaps not > safe to rely on yet due to lack of working timeouts > pass 3: let all the previously probed devices attach interrupt handlers if > needed (like acpi0 needing the SCI) > pass 4: enumerate clock devices > - this lets us get timeouts working. We can now start scheduling ithreads > and allowing interrupt handlers to run. > ... > pass 0 (done last): everything else > > Now most devices will always probe/attach with interrupts and timeouts fully > up and running like they are when a driver is kldloaded after boot, meaning > that all the config intr hook crap can die, etc. I think that a driver with > a legacy foo_probe/foo_attach should only be called during the last pass. > > One possible way to accomplish this with minimal damage is to add a pass > number field to the driver structure after the softc field and have pass 0 be > the magic pass that happens at the end. That would get legacy drivers > working w/ just a recompile. > > The other thing you want to do though would be to add a pass number to > foo_attach(), and once a driver is probed, it's attach routine would get > called for every subsequent pass with the pass number passed in as the > argument. This would require an API/ABI change for foo_attach though. The > reason for this is that some devices might need to do different things for > different passes. For example, acpi0 would want to parse the madt to > enumerate PICs during pass 2 even though it would be a pass 1 driver. The > same for legacy0 and using the mptable in pass2. > > I'm not sure if this is the best approach for that case. You might be able to > do it w/o changing foo_attach() by having an apic pass 2 driver that is a > child of acpi0 whose identify routine parses the MADT and similarly for > legacy0 by having the apic driver parse mptable for its identify routine. > That would allow us to keep API compatiblity and only adjust the driver > struct ABI. > > Doing this would allow us to finally kick things like CPUs, PICs, clocks and > other system devices under new-bus properly. ACPI already abuses identify/probe/attach to get priority for different probe tasks. We've run out of places to stick things since those are the only 3 hooks provided. As a transition approach, we can add a flag to the end of the driver structure that requests multi-pass attach. Legacy drivers or non-bus drivers that just need the old behavior leave the flag 0 by default. Drivers like acpi set the flag and parse the pass number (arg2). This yields: #define BUS_PASS_BUS_HARDWARE 100 #define BUS_PASS_IRQ_SOURCES 200 #define BUS_PASS_IRQ_CONSUMERS 300 #define BUS_PASS_CLOCKS 400 #define BUS_PASS_LAST 0xffffffff int device_attach(device_t dev, int pass); One question I have is whether this process would be repeated as we discover more depths of busses (e.g., the other side of bridges.) If we decide to go this way, I'd like to get it in before 5-stable. -Nate From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 13:04:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D09116A4CE; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 13:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78E143D48; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 13:04:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i32L4Rkj062427; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 14:04:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:04:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040402.140448.22549726.imp@bsdimp.com> To: nate@root.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20040402123025.E3097@root.org> References: <20040203145412.P33636@root.org> <200402041047.17902.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <20040402123025.E3097@root.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: arch@FreeBSD.org cc: jhb@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: newbus ioport usage X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:04:29 -0000 In message: <20040402123025.E3097@root.org> Nate Lawson writes: : ACPI already abuses identify/probe/attach to get priority for different : probe tasks. We've run out of places to stick things since those are the : only 3 hooks provided. The ISA bus uses a priority number to determine when to do the probe of a given device. How does ACPI abuse things that isn't compatible with this? Why can't ACPI do things in a similar way? Why is ACPI so different than all other busses that it can't deal with things the same way? Maybe it is different, but what I know about ACPI right now is inconsistant with your assertions. : As a transition approach, we can add a flag to the end of the driver : structure that requests multi-pass attach. Legacy drivers or non-bus : drivers that just need the old behavior leave the flag 0 by default. : Drivers like acpi set the flag and parse the pass number (arg2). I don't like this much at all. newbus isn't like that: either you implement the interface or you don't, there's not flags around. However a similar approach could be taken so that we don't screw all the drivers with two different device_attach-like methods, so I don't think that will be a problem. If we do this, we should do it for all drivers. : This yields: : : #define BUS_PASS_BUS_HARDWARE 100 : #define BUS_PASS_IRQ_SOURCES 200 : #define BUS_PASS_IRQ_CONSUMERS 300 : #define BUS_PASS_CLOCKS 400 : #define BUS_PASS_LAST 0xffffffff : : int device_attach(device_t dev, int pass); : : One question I have is whether this process would be repeated as we : discover more depths of busses (e.g., the other side of bridges.) I think that you are confusing two fundamental sets of things, or I am. Depth of busses have nothing to do with the number of passes. The entire tree of devices are already known after the BUS_PASS_BUS_HARDWARE pass, at least how jhb@ and I were talking about. : If we decide to go this way, I'd like to get it in before 5-stable. That's likely too agressive a time scale. There's a lot of newbus/pci resource allocation in my p4 tree already. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 3 00:06:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B82F16A4CE for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 00:06:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.perlegen.com (relay.perlegen.com [63.173.29.227]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03A9B43D66 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 00:06:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from perlegen_HR@perlegen.com) Received: from postfix.perlegen.com (fw-dmz.perlegen.com [63.173.29.225]) by relay.perlegen.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B20B4BB5D for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 00:06:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by postfix.perlegen.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 36B0A4BDA3; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 00:06:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from newman.perlegen.com (newman.perlegen.com [172.16.1.65]) by postfix.perlegen.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A02F4BDA2 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 00:06:47 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 00:06:46 -0800 Message-ID: <945A2BF651FA6D4B92F4F5D46AEE863ACBF16E@newman.perlegen.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Mail Delivery (failure perlegen_hr@perlegen.com) Thread-Index: AcQZUpv/7Z2xu7CLTSaYf4OJFQkJ8gAAAAN/ From: "Perlegen HR" To: Subject: Out of Office AutoReply: Mail Delivery (failure perlegen_hr@perlegen.com) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 08:06:48 -0000 Thank you for your interest in Perlegen Sciences. 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Sincerely, Perlegen Sciences Human Resources Department=20 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 3 08:44:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7833616A4CE for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 08:44:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f107.bay7.hotmail.com [64.4.11.107]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668E643D5F for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 08:44:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamethknorth@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 08:44:00 -0800 Received: from 148.61.118.42 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 03 Apr 2004 16:44:00 GMT X-Originating-IP: [148.61.118.42] X-Originating-Email: [jamethknorth@hotmail.com] X-Sender: jamethknorth@hotmail.com From: "Jamethiel Knorth" To: devel-list@arklinux.org Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 11:44:00 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2004 16:44:00.0323 (UTC) FILETIME=[DD649130:01C4199A] cc: fedora-devel-list@redhat.com cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: cooker@linux-mandrake.com cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org cc: gentoo-desktop-research@gentoo.org Subject: Re: [RFC] User Accesable Filesystem Hierarchy Standard X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 16:44:00 -0000 After the previous suggestions on this topic, I have revised the proposed standard somewhat. It is still posted in a variety of formats at: http://www.csis.gvsu.edu/~abreschm/uafhs/ I added the suggestion of using .// for a directory structure, rather than my first change to simply putting it into a hidden umbrella directory of a standard name. However, I still have several questions regarding this which I could not find an immediate answer to: Should there be a standard naming scheme for architectures, or should that be left completely to the devices of the distribution? I'm tending towards leaving it to the distribution, but would like some comments. What about architecture independent systems, like Java? Should each distro include a 'java' architecture, or something of that sort? There is no particular reason for such files to be in every architecture's folder when they work fairly widely. I also liked the idea of having group directories similar to the shared directory. In a larger work environment, such directories could solve many difficult problems. The standard doesn't say much about them, however, besides that they can be named arbitrarily and should have an internal structure identical to /home/shared/ and should be located somewhere in /home/. I don't see what else is needed to be defined on that topic, but would like any suggestions. I see no reason to unhide the program folders. They are still perfectly accessible when they need to be accessed, but they can at least be kept out of sight. This is even more important when using a naming scheme based on the distribution which could result in very many folders. Due to the fact that I merely added to and edited the old document, rather than going through and actually rewriting it, or at least checking it, the wording is clunky on several occasions. I'm not too concerned, as this is still a draft, and will work more on clarity when the ideas to be conveyed are better decided. As always, thank you for your commentary and criticism. Micah Abresch jamethknorth@hotmail.com P.S. In case anyone was wondering why this was sent to the lists it was: those are the groups which have easily accessible public lists and to which this proposed standard seemed relevant. P.P.S. Many people have contributed ideas in discussions but aren't added to the contributors section. Luckily, everything is in a public archive so I can go back and see who suggested what, but it would be easier if anyone who wanted to be credited would just e-mail me about it. _________________________________________________________________ Persistent heartburn? Check out Digestive Health & Wellness for information and advice. http://gerd.msn.com/default.asp