From owner-freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 12 11:16:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C2816A4CE for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:16:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from DarkLord.Sabahattin-Gucukoglu.com (82-35-77-212.cable.ubr02.dals.blueyonder.co.uk [82.35.77.212]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED8A43D90 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:15:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mail@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com) Received: from Spooler by DarkLord.Sabahattin-Gucukoglu.com (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO00004A; 12 Jan 04 19:13:26 -0000 Received: from spooler by sabahattin-gucukoglu.com (Mercury/32 v3.32); 12 Jan 04 19:13:23 -0000 Received: from aurora (192.168.1.3) by DarkLord.Sabahattin-Gucukoglu.com (Mercury/32 v3.32) with ESMTP ID MG000049; 12 Jan 04 19:13:22 -0000 From: "Sabahattin Gucukoglu" Organization: I need more of this! To: bugbusters@FreeBSD.org Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:10:00 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4002F108.1584.1099550F@localhost> Priority: normal X-PM-Encryptor: QDPGP, 4 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Subject: I Can't See The Image X-BeenThere: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Coordination of the Problem Report handling effort. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:16:43 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, I'm trying to use the web-based Send-PR interface which is asking me for the text characters corresponding to an image to ensure that I'm not a robot. I am merely inhuman. :-) I'm totally blind, so can't see your image. I have a completed form here, the contents of which I'll include in this email in case this form doesn't make it through submission. Sorry if it looks bad. In future, could you please find alternative methods for the verification step (perhaps a maths problem in text - "What's ten plus seven?", an email verification step, ...)? Also, surely if SendPR is email-based, robots already love it and can abuse it (I need to have it to see for myself, this bug is about installation of FreeBSD over serial port which, being blind, seems to be my only option). Form contents follow. Thanks very much in advance for your help. Cheers, Sabahattin Your Electronic Mail Address: mail@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com Your Name: Sabahattin Gucukoglu Your Organization or Company: I Need More Of This One line summary of the problem: Unable To Use VT100 Terminal Emulator (TeraTirm Pro) To Install FreeBSD 5.2RC2 On I386 Over Serial Line Category: misc Severity: non-critical Priority: medium Class: change-request Which FreeBSD Release You Are Using : 5.2-RC2 Environment (output of "uname -a" on the problem machine): N/A Full Description: Using either Hyperterminal or TeraTerm Pro - Windows-based VT100 and ANSI terminal emulators - to follow instructions given in the handbook about installing FreeBSD headless (i.e. over serial line) aren't successful. In particular, when VT100 terminal is selected for Sysinstall, the pageup/pagedn keys don't work as they are advertised, and the terminal is regularly corrupted - repeated lines, overlapping lines, uncleared screen resulting in bits of text that escaped the previous screen, etc. I would use the ANSI terminal option for installation, because that would give me only 7-bit plain old ASCII, but that's even more hopeless - down arrow in main menu somehow gets you the "Do you really want to exit" prompt, and the same happens when you pick "FreeBSD System Console". The selection is made prior to entering sysinstall, by the boot floppies, by typing a number 1-5. My reasons for doing this are that I am totally blind and, not being able to see the terminal screen, can't do the installation in any other way. The hope was that if I could get FreeBSD installed with SSHD/TelnetD, the whole issue of accessibility aids would not be a problem - I might install them later if necessary or if system administration somehow became problematic, but at least I could administer the system from more accessible systems. I could also instruct the bootloader to use - -P to kernel, giving me access through the serial port until those networking features were ready. How to repeat the problem: Connect Windows PC running either of these terminal emulators (preferably TeraTerm Pro as it needs zero extra configuration and which is freely available at http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA002416/teraterm.html ) to a candidate box for FreeBSD 5.2-RC2. Then, follow the handbook guidance for serial installation, and use the Windows PC as "Some sort of VT100/compatible terminal". The only exception to this - when you first boot the floppy, rather than going through the lengthy bit about disconnecting/reconnecting the keyboard, you could just type "-h" at the bootstrap prompt, press enter, and you'll get stuff spewing on the terminal. When you are through the kernel decompress/boot, use "VT100/Compatible" as the terminal choice when prompted (it should be option 2). First, try the usage screen - tap pagedn, which is assigned the VT100 "Next" key. From the main menu, choose Options (try using the cursors, you'll see what I mean, you may see screen corruption, but if not make the selection and then cursor around - - say DHCP. Tap space to change the flag, and you should now definitely see some terminal corruption. Also from your encounter with the usage screen or other submenus in this system like the custom install you may be able to see remnents of previous screens. Fix to the problem if known: Q&D Fix recommendation - redraw screen after every single dialog/menu. Ugh... but necessary. That's what Debian GNU/Linux does & it works. Any chance of a completely text-mode (i.e. no pretty graphics) installation process using only prompts for readline input? :-) Finally, please enter the code from the image below to prove you're not a robot: Argh! Yet another image verification form! Random text; if you cannot see the image, please email bugbusters@FreeBSD.org Submit Problem Report - -- Thought for the day: Advertising (n): the science of arresting the human intelligence for long enough to get money from it. -- Stephen Leacock. Latest PGP Public key blocks? Send any mail to: Sabahattin Gucukoglu Phone: +44 (0)20 7,502-1615 Mobile: +44 (0)7986 053399 http://www.sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/ Email/MSN: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 -- QDPGP 2.70 Comment: Previous key for revoked due to invalidated primary address. iQA/AwUBQALxCSNEOmEWtR2TEQKrAACeIp3Uo5pKRJRLHNZypwg1Wi/11PQAnRcA Zdu3UpPR8aPqFmg4urnxjTcU =uZWn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 12 11:31:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B797316A4CE for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from shaft.techsupport.co.uk (shaft.techsupport.co.uk [212.250.77.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7572843D5C for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:31:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from cpc2-cdif3-6-0-cust204.cdif.cable.ntl.com ([81.103.67.204] helo=shrike.submonkey.net ident=mailnull) by shaft.techsupport.co.uk with esmtp (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1Ag7mJ-000DP8-Ub; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:31:12 +0000 Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1Ag7mG-0007Dz-QF; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:31:08 +0000 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:31:08 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Sabahattin Gucukoglu Message-ID: <20040112193108.GF61781@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Sabahattin Gucukoglu , bugbusters@FreeBSD.org References: <4002F108.1584.1099550F@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Wb5NtZlyOqqy58h0" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4002F108.1584.1099550F@localhost> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: bugbusters@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: I Can't See The Image X-BeenThere: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Coordination of the Problem Report handling effort. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:31:17 -0000 --Wb5NtZlyOqqy58h0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 12, 2004 at 07:10:00PM -0000, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote: Hi Sabahattin, > I'm trying to use the web-based Send-PR interface which is asking me for= =20 > the text characters corresponding to an image to ensure that I'm not a=20 > robot. I am merely inhuman. :-) I'm totally blind, so can't see your=20 > image. I have a completed form here, the contents of which I'll include= =20 > in this email in case this form doesn't make it through submission. Sorr= y=20 > if it looks bad. It looks fine; I'll file it for you, as this whole situation is pretty much down to me. I knew that users with impaired vision would have a problem with this (which is why I included the "mail bugbusters" ALT tag), but figured that it was better than the previous situation, which was having zero web-based mechanism for bug reporting whatsoever. I do like the suggestion for using a maths problem; that's very neat. Are there other verification mechanisms that you could recommend? Also, looking at the filled out form you've submitted below, I'm guessing that a major annoyance with image based verification is that you get no indication that this is necessary until you've filled in the form - would it be of use (in general) for websites to state at the top of a form that you'll need to be able to see images later on? Regarding your observation that robots would be expected to be abusing an email based system anyway, I agree that you would expect that to be true, but our experience shows that this doesn't hold. No idea why. Apologies for the problems you had with the form, and I'll certainly look into other mechanisms for doing this verification. Cheer, Ceri FreeBSD Bugmeister --=20 --Wb5NtZlyOqqy58h0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAAvX8ocfcwTS3JF8RAiszAJ9Yr7kiB3TeDRVK8nBhEbcr0hyovgCcCxeV mAU2B+dN4OcF/wIarETNEaY= =350l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Wb5NtZlyOqqy58h0-- From owner-freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 12 13:43:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A81C16A4CE; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:43:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from DarkLord.Sabahattin-Gucukoglu.com (82-35-77-212.cable.ubr02.dals.blueyonder.co.uk [82.35.77.212]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 915B543D5A; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:43:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mail@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com) Received: from Spooler by DarkLord.Sabahattin-Gucukoglu.com (Mercury/32 v3.32) ID MO000077; 12 Jan 04 21:41:13 -0000 Received: from spooler by sabahattin-gucukoglu.com (Mercury/32 v3.32); 12 Jan 04 21:41:10 -0000 Received: from aurora (192.168.1.3) by DarkLord.Sabahattin-Gucukoglu.com (Mercury/32 v3.32) with ESMTP ID MG000076; 12 Jan 04 21:41:09 -0000 From: "Sabahattin Gucukoglu" Organization: I need more of this! To: Ceri Davies Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:37:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <400313AF.24068.1120B07C@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20040112193108.GF61781@submonkey.net> References: <4002F108.1584.1099550F@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: bugbusters@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: I Can't See The Image X-BeenThere: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Coordination of the Problem Report handling effort. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:43:46 -0000 Hi Ceri, On 12 Jan 2004 at 19:31, Ceri Davies spoke, thus: [...] > It looks fine; I'll file it for you, as this whole situation is pretty > much down to me. I knew that users with impaired vision would have a > problem with this (which is why I included the "mail bugbusters" ALT > tag), but figured that it was better than the previous situation, which > was having zero web-based mechanism for bug reporting whatsoever. I'm very glad you did. :-) I didn't even realise that it was actually a graphic, since if there is alt text the text goes straight into my MSAA buffer (screen review program's decolumnisation and parsing of HTML to make web pages in the form of a linear, character-based document as in a word processor with review functionality using cursors etc rather than representative of what's physically on the screen which read literally may make no sense as in frames or tables; MSAA stands for M$ Active Accessibility, the "Standard" which screen readers use to get data out of the browser - M$IE - without needing to hack it out of the screen) for my benefit (the expectation is that we will know it is an alt because of its contents - EG a useful description of an image) without making a distinction that it was any different from normal text. The situation that needed web access also happened to apply to me - installation. So, all in all, and for submitting the report on my behalf, thank you! > I do like the suggestion for using a maths problem; that's very neat. > Are there other verification mechanisms that you could recommend? Hmm, well the most obvious is email, but it is only limited by the capacity of people's intent to do damage and your imagination, really. My maths problem example is only useful if someone doesn't fiendishly bother to craft up a suitably horrible piece of code that does the dirty work. I rely on the supreme unlikelihood of this. Having said that, I may have been bothered to buzz that image through my OCR utility to try and pull the characters out of it, and it would be no less robotic than before if that could be automated, assuming that the process that created the image was any good at scrawling it enough to upset OCR applications but still make it readable by humans. Even sound has been used this way, concatenating the characters from the alphabet and numbers and then making this available as a waveform for download, sometimes with suitable obfuscation (muffling, fizz/crackle, etc), and it could still be completely horrible and un-doable for me. So... maths, simple coding (i.e. in the following word, shift each character up by 3 for even characters or vowels and 5 for others)... If it's email, don't forget to introduce the random element into the email that is sent back in the URL, else it's pointless (sorry, you probably already know, it's depressing to see the number of people/organisations that still don't, including these so-called silver-bullet challenge response anti-spam systems, all of which are the very devil for verification tactics). You won't get me verifying my email address on one of those... :-( > Also, looking at the filled out form you've submitted below, I'm > guessing that a major annoyance with image based verification is that > you get no indication that this is necessary until you've filled in the > form - would it be of use (in general) for websites to state at the top of > a form that you'll need to be able to see images later on? Absolutely. I always see and work with the page from the top down, so I filled in this form before realising that I was completely incapable of getting it submitted which was obviously a tad annoying (as you've seen :- ) ). Had I known otherwise I would have manually typed the entries into my email to you, so the result would look a bit nicer but be essentially similar in this particular instance. Yahoo! have this sort of thing for their registration, and they always put at the top of their pages something like, "Visually impaired users - this form relies on image verification because of spammers, ... please use this web page to contact us instead". Well, that turns out to be awful, because customer services then fail to get back and you are left without a registration at all, but you could do the same if you'd rather hold your email addresses from spammers - a webform that securely submits mail to you instead of revealing the address. Of course, independence is definitely the key, so alternative verification steps are definitely preferable. > Regarding your observation that robots would be expected to be abusing an > email based system anyway, I agree that you would expect that to be true, > but our experience shows that this doesn't hold. No idea why. Mmm. Well if the robot that accepts the reports simply has no time for spam (EG uses Procmail/RBLS/etc) then it is definitely better off than if it were simply configured to automate the input process and reply if it didn't understand it, since spammers may use that property to bounce error messages at hapless individuals. Still, it's probably just due to the fact that the address isn't likely well-publicised or something. I've never worked directly with Send-PR yet, so wouldn't really know. Perhaps it's just luck! :-) > Apologies for the problems you had with the form, and I'll certainly > look into other mechanisms for doing this verification. No problem, and thanks very much again - you've been extremely helpful! > Cheer, > > Ceri > FreeBSD Bugmeister Cheers, Sabahattin -- Thought for the day: Communist (n): one who has given up all hope of becoming a Capitalist. Latest PGP Public key blocks? Send any mail to: Sabahattin Gucukoglu Phone: +44 (0)20 7,502-1615 Mobile: +44 (0)7986 053399 http://www.sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/ Email/MSN: