From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 21 04:26:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F31E316A4CE for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 04:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hutcs.cs.hut.fi (hutcs.cs.hut.fi [130.233.192.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B4943D4C for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 04:26:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kirma@cs.hut.fi) Received: from kirma (helo=localhost) by hutcs.cs.hut.fi with local-esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BGFrd-0005OU-Ev; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:26:01 +0300 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:26:01 +0300 (EEST) From: Jari Kirma To: Brad Knowles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shadow filesystems [was Re: Pair donates 20,000 to Poul-Henning Kamp??] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:26:03 -0000 On Fri, 16 Apr 2004, Brad Knowles wrote: > After a catastrophic wipeout when I was a student at the > University of Oklahoma about 20 years ago (causing me to work 36 > hours straight to re-create all my hard work), I created a set of > shell script tools to replace the "rm", "mv", "cp", etc... programs > with something that would use a "~/.Trash" directory and then > compress the files, etc.... When I first created these scripts, they > were very popular, and widely used by the student community. IIRC, I > posted a fairly final version of those scripts to comp.sources.*. > ECN staff had a disagreement with me over these tools, thinking > it unwise for people to get used to the "new" behaviour, which might > lead them to get seriously screwed when they used "rm" somewhere else > and it didn't act in the way they expected. However, it wasn't until > after I had another massive wipeout (this time using vi to write a > file into the wrong filename), that I decided that I agreed with them. > So, I removed the scripts from my bin, although others could > always go to the newsgroup archives and pull down their own version > if they wanted. I don't think anyone did. > If you really want to make something like this work, you have to > cover all possible avenues of destruction, not just creat(), > unlink(), and rename routines. Introduce a real filesystem > versioning scheme, and I would gladly welcome your work. As I was actually looking for resources to actually do this, I run to recent paper from FAST 2004 conference: Kiran-Kumar Muniswamy-Reddy, Charles P. Wright, Andrew Himmer, and Erez Zadok: "A Versatile and User-Oriented Versioning File System", . It seems to implement pretty much what is wanted, although sources aren't available, at least yet. It probably uses FiST stackable filesystem toolkit, so it should actually work with Linux, FreeBSD and Solaris if properly implemented. -kirma From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 21 11:07:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55D5D16A4D1 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34B443D39 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:07:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040421180736.OGXN9499.priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo>; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:07:36 -0600 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:05:48 -0700 From: Chris Pressey To: Dan MacMillan Message-Id: <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: dgw@liwest.at cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:07:37 -0000 [let's move this to -chat out of consideration for the individuals who are more concerned with asking/answering questions about FreeBSD] On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:28:48 -0600 Dan MacMillan wrote: > > > > From: Daniela > > > > Sent: April 17, 2004 04:50 > > > > > > > > OO languages can be optimized differently than non-OO languages, > > > > and when you translate one language into another, this advantage > > > > gets lost. > > > > > > I challenge you to defend this claim with a specific example. > > > > I don't really have a specific example, but it's quite the same with > > human languages. The more often a text is translated, the more > > useless information > > gets added to it. And if the original text is beautifully written, > > it is often total crap when you translate it back. > > These are not analagous. The reason things get lost in the > translation of human language is that it is not possible to represent > every expression in one human language with complete precision in > another. I challenge you to defend this (Sapir-Worfian) claim with a specific example. :) > However, it =is= possible to represent object orientation > with complete precision in a procedural language. To support object > orientation, C++ adds to C an intrinsic this pointer and vtables. > These concepts can be expressed explicitly in C without loss of > fidelity. That (the Turing-Church thesis) is not at issue. What is at issue is opportunities for optimization. I can't say for "Object Orientation" specifically (since there are as many definitions of an "OO language" as there are "OO languages",) but in general, translation between languages *can* result in a loss of opportunities for optimization. For example, if you translate a program from a language with partially-specified evaluation order to one with strict & fully-specified evaluation order, do you not lose the opportunity to optimize it by reordering evaluations? -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 21 11:29:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9BAD16A4CE for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.167]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41EF243D1F for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:29:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from scan3.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.166] helo=localhost) by tx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1BGMSz-0001ul-Ns for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:29:01 +0100 Received: from rx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.165]) by localhost (scan3.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.166]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 07157-06 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:29:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.161.253]) by rx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1BGMSz-0001uf-AR for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:29:01 +0100 Received: (qmail 11407 invoked by uid 1004); 21 Apr 2004 18:29:01 -0000 Received: from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk by gateway by uid 71 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.67. sweep: 2.18/3.79. Clear:RC:1(163.1.161.131):. Processed in 0.151833 secs); 21 Apr 2004 18:29:01 -0000 Received: from dhcp1131.wadham.ox.ac.uk (HELO piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (163.1.161.131) by gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk with SMTP; 21 Apr 2004 18:29:00 -0000 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.1.20040421191223.03ed1a88@imap.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@imap.sfu.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:28:55 +0100 To: Chris Pressey From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:29:02 -0000 At 19:05 21/04/2004, Chris Pressey wrote: >On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:28:48 -0600 >Dan MacMillan wrote: >> These are not analagous. The reason things get lost in the >> translation of human language is that it is not possible to represent >> every expression in one human language with complete precision in >> another. > >I challenge you to defend this (Sapir-Worfian) claim with a specific >example. :) I'm not a biblical scholar, but I've been told that the word in Isaiah 7:14 which is often translated as "virgin" was used at the time to mean both "virgin" and "young woman". Presumably the original author knew which he (or she) meant, but the precise meaning was lost in translation. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 21 12:04:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DC016A4CE for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 034A443D55 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:04:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.8p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i3LJ4Ggp047923; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:04:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.1.20040421191223.03ed1a88@imap.sfu.ca> References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <6.0.1.1.1.20040421191223.03ed1a88@imap.sfu.ca> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:04:00 +0200 To: Colin Percival From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Chris Pressey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:04:26 -0000 At 7:28 PM +0100 2004/04/21, Colin Percival wrote: >>I challenge you to defend this (Sapir-Worfian) claim with a specific >>example. :) > > I'm not a biblical scholar, but I've been told that the word in > Isaiah 7:14 which is often translated as "virgin" was used at the > time to mean both "virgin" and "young woman". Presumably the > original author knew which he (or she) meant, but the precise > meaning was lost in translation. Actually, the original meaning was "unmarried". For someone who has never had sex before, the word used was translated as "chaste". Unfortunately, no one ever uses chaste anymore, and the mis-use virgin to mean something quite different. Kind of like the way the word "hacker" has been abused. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 21 12:50:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E77A16A4CE for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes12-hme0.telusplanet.net (outbound03.telus.net [199.185.220.222]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE8C643D53 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:50:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes12-hme0.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040421195005.KAJD14082.priv-edtnes12-hme0.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:50:05 -0600 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:48:17 -0700 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20040421124817.5811bddb.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <6.0.1.1.1.20040421191223.03ed1a88@imap.sfu.ca> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:50:06 -0000 On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:04:00 +0200 Brad Knowles wrote: > At 7:28 PM +0100 2004/04/21, Colin Percival wrote: > > >>I challenge you to defend this (Sapir-Worfian) claim with a specific > >>example. :) > > > > I'm not a biblical scholar, but I've been told that the word in > > Isaiah 7:14 which is often translated as "virgin" was used at the > > time to mean both "virgin" and "young woman". Presumably the > > original author knew which he (or she) meant, but the precise > > meaning was lost in translation. > > Actually, the original meaning was "unmarried". For someone who > has never had sex before, the word used was translated as "chaste". > > Unfortunately, no one ever uses chaste anymore, and the mis-use > virgin to mean something quite different. Kind of like the way the > word "hacker" has been abused. Sure. And the history of the word "silly" is equally interesting... But unless someone can show that it is actually *not possible* to distinguish between "unmarried" and "chaste" in Aramaic, I think the challenge still stands. :) -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 21 13:08:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C5D16A4CE for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD60443D55 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:08:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B60283D31 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 16:08:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 16:08:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <40869C82.12454.1589DB3C@localhost> Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Subject: Adobde Illustrator 11 file conversion X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:08:36 -0000 Hi folks, I have two Adobe Illustrator 11 files which need to be converted to Adobe Illustrator 9 with "all fonts outlined". If you can do this for me, please contact me off list. I'm told this is just a "File Save As" operation. Thanks. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 21 13:51:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7198716A4CE for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4700043D1F for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:51:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.8p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i3LKp1gn054360; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 16:51:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040421124817.5811bddb.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <6.0.1.1.1.20040421191223.03ed1a88@imap.sfu.ca> <20040421124817.5811bddb.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:45:59 +0200 To: Chris Pressey From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:51:10 -0000 At 12:48 PM -0700 2004/04/21, Chris Pressey wrote: > But unless someone can show that it is actually *not possible* to > distinguish between "unmarried" and "chaste" in Aramaic, I think the > challenge still stands. :) The word virgin is distinct from chaste in English, and I'm sure that Aramaic can distinguish between them as well. The issue is not whether they could distinguish between them two thousand years ago, but what has happened since. Of course, you could always ask Mel Gibson. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 21 14:00:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0618C16A4D0 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A01FE43D54 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:00:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1BGOph-0007dL-00; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:00:37 -0700 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:00:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: comparing netboot thin client solutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:00:39 -0000 I am currently researching LTSP and K12LTSP (Fedora and LTSP pre-configured). Any other free, open source solutions I should look at? And I'd also like to compare with *BSD solutions. I see the old 1996 Diskless X Server: a how to guide (for FreeBSD) and the Diskless NetBSD HOW-TO. Does anyone have know of any websites or articles comparing netboot thin client setups? Or any personal experience you'd like to share? I am particularly interested in comparing approximate time to setup server for the tftp and bootp tasks and the setup time for the initial pre-configured boot image and run environment. In my case, audio is not needed, just a web browser and printing service. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 21 15:19:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59B3316A4CE for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D93E343D4C for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:19:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 88065 invoked by uid 555); 21 Apr 2004 20:52:34 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.149.229) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1082566353-88058 for luke@foolishgames.com; Wed, 21 Apr 20:52:33 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 01F7213E; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:28:38 +0400 (MSD) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:28:37 +0400 From: DoubleF To: Daniela Message-ID: <20040421162837.GA296@Shark.localdomain> Mail-Followup-To: DoubleF , Daniela , Lucas Holt , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Miles Lubin References: <200404151110.i3FBAaoo048373@adsl-68-76-19-75.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net> <200404171050.29467.dgw@liwest.at> <20040417123848.GA244@Shark.localdomain> <200404202139.53518.dgw@liwest.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200404202139.53518.dgw@liwest.at> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: Lucas Holt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Miles Lubin Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:19:18 -0000 --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [When I say `moving to chat@', I mean it] On Tue, Apr 20, 2004 at 09:39:53PM +0000, Daniela probably wrote: >=20 > Part of the reason why I love assembly is that I hate being limited and n= ot=20 > being able to do *exactly* what I want. >=20 Fortunately, things like 'running into a wall' don't happen all that often in UN*X world, do they? I wouldn't say that FreeBSD, for instance, is hiding its power. Even with C, it's all there --- that is, if you need power, not speed. Back in the days of DOS, I needed to work around some marasmatic conventions or limitations, but now I just don't feel the need to do that. After a bit of recalling, I think I didn't feel it since the very first installation day... > And if I want it to be fast ... Undoubtedly, today you can hand-optimize your code to run faster. But there are certain problems (I'm not touching compatibility problems here, they're known to you): 1) what you have written to be optimal for an AMD processor may be suboptimal for an Intel processor, and vice versa, and Intel and AMD aren't the only companies out there; 2) what you have written to be optimal for a Pentium P54C (read: Pentium 1; that's what I'm sitting in front of now) processor may be suboptimal even for a P6 (Pentium Pro) processor, because their architectures are different; 3) (a bit more serious) it's not difficult to manage the 8 basic 32-bit registers (okay, maybe 7:)) efficiently, but do you think you can do the same with 16 64-bit registers of the AMD 64-bit processor? not sure about you, but I wouldn't bet I can outoptimize a good compiler there; 4) it's not difficult to write instructions one by one, but it's not easy for the processor to process them that way , so Intel's 64-bit architecture wants you to pack 3-s of instructions into chunks. I think 3 is an odd number of instructions to have in a 128-bit chunk:). This definitely doesn't make assembly programmer's life easier either. (3 and 4: just look at the manuals of the respective architectures and see, for instance, how the 3-convention makes IA-64 assembly unreadable --- just MHO). >=20 > I'd give up all the comforts of a high-level language even for no particu= lar=20 > reason. Every programming language is fun and easy in it's own way. For m= e,=20 > ASM in not just a last resort. >=20 --=20 DoubleF The universe does not have laws -- it has habits, and habits can be broken. --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAhqE1wo7hT/9lVdwRAinZAJsEUaQuY9aJ1c14F1dg4/ULKQSUeQCdH+na ju781ULRk6AUbqiOlHNiHJw= =9bwB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 21 15:36:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B8FE16A4CF for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3443843D2F for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:36:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rocky@401.cx) Received: from rocky.ljusdal.net (roseau [192.168.0.10]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i3LMatfN021364; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:36:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rocky@401.cx) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:32:06 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Message-ID: <20040421223206.GA93049@rocky.ljusdal.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Format=Flowed; DelSp=Yes; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: (from reed@reedmedia.net on Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 23:00:37 +0200) X-Mailer: Balsa 2.0.17 Lines: 29 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 'clamd / ClamAV version 0.65', clamav-milter version '0.60p' cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: comparing netboot thin client solutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:36:58 -0000 On 04/21/04 23:00:37, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > I am currently researching LTSP and K12LTSP (Fedora and LTSP > pre-configured). Any other free, open source solutions I should look > at? > > And I'd also like to compare with *BSD solutions. > > I see the old 1996 Diskless X Server: a how to guide (for FreeBSD) > and > the > Diskless NetBSD HOW-TO. > *snip* This made me a bit curious since Ive been planning to do something similar myself, so I looked up the Diskless X Server howto. On the last page, it says "If you are not using devfs(5) (which is the default in FreeBSD 5.X), you should make sure that you do not forget to run MAKEDEV all in the dev directory." Now, the article is dated 1996, but it still mentions devfs and FreeBSD 5.x. How long has FreeBSD 5.x been around? AFAIK it has been a work in progress for quite some time, but devfs back in 1996? Has the howto been updated without the date being changed, or am I missing something here? -- R From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 21 15:53:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69E6B16A4CE for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F23FD43D1F for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:53:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id A942E530C; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:53:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id B111F530A; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:53:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 8FBF933C71; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:53:24 +0200 (CEST) To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" References: <20040421223206.GA93049@rocky.ljusdal.net> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:53:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20040421223206.GA93049@rocky.ljusdal.net> (Roger Vetterberg's message of "Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:32:06 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: comparing netboot thin client solutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:53:33 -0000 "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" writes: > This made me a bit curious since Ive been planning to do something > similar myself, so I looked up the Diskless X Server howto. > On the last page, it says "If you are not using devfs(5) (which is the > default in FreeBSD 5.X), you should make sure that you do not forget to > run MAKEDEV all in the dev directory." > Now, the article is dated 1996, but it still mentions devfs and FreeBSD > 5.x. > How long has FreeBSD 5.x been around? AFAIK it has been a work in > progress for quite some time, but devfs back in 1996? No, work on FreeBSD 5 started in March 2000. > Has the howto been updated without the date being changed, or am I > missing something here? That sentence was added in August last year. It is practically the only part of the article which is still somewhat relevant. You should read http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/network-diskless.html instead (though I can't guarantee it's 100% up-to-date) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 21 20:08:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3084E16A4CE for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8797043D2F for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:08:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 61469 invoked by uid 555); 22 Apr 2004 07:08:10 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.149.182) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1082603290-61441 for cpressey@catseye.mine.nu; Thu, 22 Apr 07:08:10 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 95D3316A; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 07:06:37 +0400 (MSD) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 07:06:36 +0400 From: DoubleF To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20040422030636.GA444@Shark.localdomain> Mail-Followup-To: DoubleF , Brad Knowles , Chris Pressey , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <6.0.1.1.1.20040421191223.03ed1a88@imap.sfu.ca> <20040421124817.5811bddb.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: Chris Pressey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 03:08:14 -0000 --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 10:45:59PM +0200, Brad Knowles probably wrote: > At 12:48 PM -0700 2004/04/21, Chris Pressey wrote: >=20 > The word virgin is distinct from chaste in English, and I'm sure=20 > that Aramaic can distinguish between them as well. The issue is not=20 > whether they could distinguish between them two thousand years ago,=20 > but what has happened since. >=20 Well, it's getting about too offtopic then... If you think C++ can be translated to C, just translate this: // one module class A { public: A(); }; A::A() { /* some code here */ } static A a; // another module, which doesn't know about the former's existance int main(void) { /* some other code here */ } --=20 DoubleF Our policy is, when in doubt, do the right thing. -- Roy L. Ash, ex-president Litton Industries --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAhza7wo7hT/9lVdwRAnSlAJ46Eth41rwcAkBw2b9RzHHDmr+M1QCfTCMY XJDwchYUolVJMKqftVxidI0= =v/LP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 21 21:01:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8A716A4CE for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pd3mo3so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3CA643D5C for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:01:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from flowers@users.sourceforge.net) Received: from pd3mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr1so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.177])2003)) with ESMTP id <0HWK00HOT0HYX1@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:01:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml9so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.7]) by pd3mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0HWK002SW0HMQ2A0@pd3mr1so.prod.shaw.ca> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:00:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sirius (S0106004001438e5b.cg.shawcable.net [68.144.47.89]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HWK00I1F0HWL8@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:01:09 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:01:06 -0600 From: Danny MacMillan In-reply-to: <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> To: Chris Pressey Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Opera7.23/Win32 M2 build 3227 References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> cc: dgw@liwest.at cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 04:01:38 -0000 On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:05:48 -0700, Chris Pressey wrote: > On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:28:48 -0600 > Dan MacMillan wrote: > >> These are not analagous. The reason things get lost in the >> translation of human language is that it is not possible to represent >> every expression in one human language with complete precision in >> another. > > I challenge you to defend this (Sapir-Worfian) claim with a specific > example. :) Thirty seconds on babelfish will provide more than enough substantiation, and Daniela herself argued my point in one of her prior messages. In crappy, somewhat whimsical pseudocode: the_message != translateFrenchToEnglish( translateEnglishToFrench( the_message ) ) The translations are not reciprocal. Though I guess that's not a specific example. Note that only machine translation is relevant for the sake of this argument, because the information available to a human making a translation is basically unbounded and the process is highly subjective. I do have to confess to some ignorance. I don't know what your 'Sapir-Worfian' parenthetical alludes to. At first I thought it was a Star Trek reference ... but a quick Google shows that "One of the premises of Sapir-Worfian hypothesis implies that semantic systems vary without constraint". Excellent! I'll just hop on my double-jimsen saddle and check the specs on the inline for the rotary girder. Ah, here we go. A further Google shows that my ignorance needs no confession, as my reply makes it quite plain. You've obviously given this at least as much thought as I have and studied it besides. >> However, it =is= possible to represent object orientation >> with complete precision in a procedural language. To support object >> orientation, C++ adds to C an intrinsic this pointer and vtables. >> These concepts can be expressed explicitly in C without loss of >> fidelity. > > That (the Turing-Church thesis) is not at issue. What is at issue is > opportunities for optimization. > > I can't say for "Object Orientation" specifically (since there are as > many definitions of an "OO language" as there are "OO languages",) but > in general, translation between languages *can* result in a loss of > opportunities for optimization. I agree. That's why I asked for a specific example -- because I can't think of an optimization that is possible when compiling C++ code directly to binary that isn't possible when first translating C++ to C, then compiling that to binary. Doing so will obviously take advantage of any C language optimizations, and I can even imagine that there are opportunities for optimization in the decisions the compiler would make translating C++ to C. But are there lost opportunities? I'm dubious. I don't think there are. Of course, I could be wrong. I'm not that smart. That's why I asked for an example! There are few things I enjoy more (or experience less :) than finding out I'm in error. By the way, I'm thinking specifically of C vs C++ -- actually, C vs that subset of C++ needed for the object-oriented features. It's the closest apples-to-apples comparison I can think of between non-OO and OO languages, and is the comparison strongly implied by Daniela's message. > For example, if you translate a program from a language with > partially-specified evaluation order to one with strict & > fully-specified evaluation order, do you not lose the opportunity to > optimize it by reordering evaluations? Yes, and I take your point. But the specific claim that was made was that object-oriented languages are optimized differently from non-object-oriented ones. I just don't see it -- but again, I would enjoy an education. -Danny From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 21 22:49:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 184C716A4CE for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFCE343D1F for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:49:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from daleco.biz ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:50:09 -0500 Message-ID: <40875CDD.2090606@daleco.biz> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:49:17 -0500 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040406 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Pressey References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <6.0.1.1.1.20040421191223.03ed1a88@imap.sfu.ca> <20040421124817.5811bddb.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20040421124817.5811bddb.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Apr 2004 05:50:09.0593 (UTC) FILETIME=[ABE77A90:01C4282D] cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 05:49:20 -0000 > > >At 7:28 PM +0100 2004/04/21, Colin Percival wrote: > >> I'm not a biblical scholar, but I've been told that the word in >> Isaiah 7:14 which is often translated as "virgin" was used at the >> time to mean both "virgin" and "young woman". Presumably the >> original author knew which he (or she) meant, but the precise >> meaning was lost in translation. >> >> Brad Knowles wrote: >> Actually, the original meaning was "unmarried". For someone who >>has never had sex before, the word used was translated as "chaste". >> >> >> Chris Pressey wrote: >Sure. And the history of the word "silly" is equally interesting... > >But unless someone can show that it is actually *not possible* to >distinguish between "unmarried" and "chaste" in Aramaic, I think the >challenge still stands. :) > >-Chris > > Don't know if it's *not possible*, but it is so difficult that it hasn't yet been accomplished, at least in this context. I'm not a biblical scholar either, and Isaiah 7:14 was written in Hebrew, not Aramaic (IIRC, , the only Old Testament passages in Aramaic are the last part of Daniel and the book of Esther), but the original Hebrew word 'almah' ~ "young woman, {female} child of marriageable age." So, maybe it can mean either; and keep in mind that in Palestine, in Biblical times, "young woman" and "virgin" were almost totally analogous and that was the expected "norm". Almost all "young women" were either "virgins" or corpses... Furthermore, Christians would argue, with some reason, that in this case it means both: it's a dual reference to Isaiah's wife and, later, to Mary who was espoused to Joseph bar Jakub. Picture Mel Gibson and Billy Graham arguing with a trio of Rabbis about Christ's divinity. . . getting anywhere with that would be close to *not possible* and might be the answer to your challenge .... But, of course, it has little to do with programming, unless maybe you use INTERCAL ;-) Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 22 01:07:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F1816A4CE for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154D043D49 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:07:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040422080703.BRNE25459.priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 02:07:03 -0600 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:05:17 -0700 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20040422010517.786b91b8.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:07:04 -0000 On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:01:06 -0600 Danny MacMillan wrote: > On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:05:48 -0700, Chris Pressey > wrote: > > > On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:28:48 -0600 > > Dan MacMillan wrote: > > > >> These are not analagous. The reason things get lost in the > >> translation of human language is that it is not possible to > >represent> every expression in one human language with complete > >precision in> another. > > > > I challenge you to defend this (Sapir-Worfian) claim with a specific > > example. :) > > Thirty seconds on babelfish will provide more than enough > substantiation, and Daniela herself argued my point in one of her > prior messages. In crappy, somewhat whimsical pseudocode: > > the_message != > translateFrenchToEnglish( translateEnglishToFrench( the_message ) ) > > The translations are not reciprocal. Though I guess that's not a > specific example. > > Note that only machine translation is relevant for the sake of this > argument, because the information available to a human making a > translation is basically unbounded and the process is highly > subjective. Ah, well then this discussion is kind of pointless, because as you saw when you visited Babelfish, machines are currently incapable of human language translation. :) That is, if your position is that it is not presently possible to mechanically translate every expression in one human language with complete precision in another, I fully agree. > I do have to confess to some ignorance. I don't know what your > 'Sapir-Worfian' parenthetical alludes to. At first I thought it was a > Star Trek reference ... but a quick Google shows that "One of the > premises of Sapir-Worfian hypothesis implies that semantic systems > vary without constraint". Excellent! I'll just hop on my > double-jimsen saddle and check the specs on the inline for the rotary > girder. > > Ah, here we go. A further Google shows that my ignorance needs no > confession, as my reply makes it quite plain. You've obviously given > this at least as much thought as I have and studied it besides. > You pretty much summed up the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (as I understand it) quite succinctly with "it is not possible to represent every expression in one human language with complete precision in another." No, nothing about Star Trek - just a misspelling on my part - although all these challenges could be regarded as a bit Klingon, I suppose... A pretty good summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_Hypothesis > > For example, if you translate a program from a language with > > partially-specified evaluation order to one with strict & > > fully-specified evaluation order, do you not lose the opportunity to > > optimize it by reordering evaluations? > > Yes, and I take your point. But the specific claim that was made was > that object-oriented languages are optimized differently from > non-object-oriented ones. I just don't see it -- but again, I would > enjoy an education. Well, I don't immediately see it either, but on the other hand, I wouldn't be too surprised. And I admit I'm taking some liberties with "losing opportunities." I suppose, if you put in the effort, you can retain all the information. For example, even in the case of translating a partially ordered language to a fully ordered one, you could implement a partially ordered evaluator in the fully ordered language, then just link in the original code. Of course, it's easy to see how that would be suboptimal, too... So how's this - say your target language is not a machine language, but rather C++ itself. If you're constrained to translating your C++ code to C, then back to C++ - how much work do you have to put into your translator to be able to reconstruct C++ code with the same efficiency as the original source? Or worse, what if the intermediate language is not C, but rather, say, Brainf*ck? Even if it's theoretically possible (which is my guess, but it's not something I've seen established in any concrete fashion either way,) the sheer effort involved would be truly phenomenal. If I can take Daniela's original point as being that a translator from X->Z stands a better chance at producing good Z code than a pair of translators X->Y->Z, then I probably agree. But beyond that, I really don't know much except that it's a complex issue. -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 22 01:44:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB49616A4CE for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF8CF43D48 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:44:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.8p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i3M8iHgt098077; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 04:44:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40875CDD.2090606@daleco.biz> References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <6.0.1.1.1.20040421191223.03ed1a88@imap.sfu.ca> <20040421124817.5811bddb.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <40875CDD.2090606@daleco.biz> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:40:11 +0200 To: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Chris Pressey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:44:36 -0000 At 12:49 AM -0500 2004/04/22, Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > I'm not a biblical scholar either, and Isaiah 7:14 was written > in Hebrew, not Aramaic (IIRC, but this *is* chat@>, the only Old Testament passages in Aramaic > are the last part of Daniel and the book of Esther), but the original > Hebrew word 'almah' ~ "young woman, {female} child of marriageable age." Keep in mind that the original written forms of the Bible were already many generations old by that time, having been previously handed down in oral form. Indeed, many of the original stories were actually told in Greek (Ancient Greek, that is) and not Hebrew or Aramaic, because by that time most Jews were Greek slaves and the masters made sure that they didn't know any other language. I recall one story about a scholar (involved in the original King George translation?) who lamented his inability to read the original Ancient Greek on some of the oldest scrolls they had, and had to make do with the Hebrew translations that had been done at the time. So, when you're talking about translations of the Bible, this is a problem that is manyfold and has occurred throughout the history of the book. Indeed, at that level, not unlike the problem we face today. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 22 14:43:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D588E16A4CE for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle.comp.uvic.ca (castle.comp.uvic.ca [142.104.5.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14FA43D3F for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:43:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisa@uvic.ca) Received: from uvic.ca (S01060050bab00fcb.gv.shawcable.net [24.68.226.164]) i3MLhB5w4989020; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:43:11 -0700 Message-ID: <40883C6F.5090602@uvic.ca> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:43:11 -0700 From: Chris Ashlee User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DoubleF References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <6.0.1.1.1.20040421191223.03ed1a88@imap.sfu.ca> <20040421124817.5811bddb.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040422030636.GA444@Shark.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <20040422030636.GA444@Shark.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UVic-Virus-Scanned: OK - Passed virus scan by Sophos (sophie) on castle X-UVic-Spam-Scan: castle.comp.uvic.ca Not_scanned_LOCAL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:43:12 -0000 DoubleF wrote: > [etc] If you think C++ can be translated to C, just translate this: > > // one module > > class A > { > public: > A(); > }; > > A::A() > { > /* some code here */ > } > > static A a; > > // another module, which doesn't know about the former's existance > > int > main(void) > { > /* some other code here */ > } > Based on my (limited) knowledge of C++, the constructor for the object 'a' of type A will be called before main... So if you were to translate this to C, the other module, which doesn't know about the A module, would have to have a call to the constructor inserted before any other code in main, and 'a' would have to be referenced from the module containing main. So it seems that some information would be lost in the translation to C, namely that some details of other modules should not be visible. However, the compiled code for both the C++ program and the C translation could well wind up the same. Any high-level optimizations that can be done on C++ but not C could probably be done in the translation itself. Remember, C is basically a glorified, portable assembly language, and just about anything can be translated to it - even machine code. It's translating to a more high-level language that's hard. Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 22 15:19:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A775816A4CE for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle.comp.uvic.ca (castle.comp.uvic.ca [142.104.5.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656E543D1D for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:19:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisa@uvic.ca) Received: from uvic.ca (S01060050bab00fcb.gv.shawcable.net [24.68.226.164]) i3MMJk5w3874992; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:19:46 -0700 Message-ID: <40884502.9060301@uvic.ca> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:19:46 -0700 From: Chris Ashlee User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DoubleF References: <200404151110.i3FBAaoo048373@adsl-68-76-19-75.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net> <200404171050.29467.dgw@liwest.at> <20040417123848.GA244@Shark.localdomain> <200404202139.53518.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421162837.GA296@Shark.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <20040421162837.GA296@Shark.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UVic-Virus-Scanned: OK - Passed virus scan by Sophos (sophie) on castle X-UVic-Spam-Scan: castle.comp.uvic.ca Not_scanned_LOCAL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:19:47 -0000 DoubleF wrote: > [When I say `moving to chat@', I mean it] > > On Tue, Apr 20, 2004 at 09:39:53PM +0000, > Daniela probably wrote: >>[assembly language-related stuff and etc] >>And if I want it to be fast ... > > > Undoubtedly, today you can hand-optimize your code to run faster. But > there are certain problems (I'm not touching compatibility problems > here, they're known to you): > > 1) what you have written to be optimal for an AMD processor may be > suboptimal for an Intel processor, and vice versa, and Intel and AMD > aren't the only companies out there; > > 2) what you have written to be optimal for a Pentium P54C (read: Pentium > 1; that's what I'm sitting in front of now) processor may be suboptimal > even for a P6 (Pentium Pro) processor, because their architectures are > different; > > 3) (a bit more serious) it's not difficult to manage the 8 basic 32-bit > registers (okay, maybe 7:)) efficiently, but do you think you can do the > same with 16 64-bit registers of the AMD 64-bit processor? not sure > about you, but I wouldn't bet I can outoptimize a good compiler there; > > 4) it's not difficult to write instructions one by one, but it's not > easy for the processor to process them that way , so Intel's 64-bit > architecture wants you to pack 3-s of instructions into chunks. I think > 3 is an odd number of instructions to have in a 128-bit chunk:). This > definitely doesn't make assembly programmer's life easier either. > > (3 and 4: just look at the manuals of the respective architectures and > see, for instance, how the 3-convention makes IA-64 assembly > unreadable --- just MHO). All of these are good points, and debunk assembly's supposed advantages. But the difficulty of writing fast assembly code on any decent architecture (ie. not x86) is really the least of its problems. The worst of its problems: 1) It takes longer to write, 2) It takes longer to debug, 3) It's much harder for others to understand, 4) It's MUCH harder to change, 5) It limits you to one CPU architecture. All these disadvantages, for only a *chance* at faster code in return. Why such an emphasis on speed before anything's even written, let alone profiled? > > >>I'd give up all the comforts of a high-level language even for no particular >>reason. Every programming language is fun and easy in it's own way. For me, >>ASM in not just a last resort. >> Fair enough. That's your choice. And there is a certain measure of fun in it. At my school, they make us all take a class in assembly language programming, albeit on 68HC11 microcontrollers, and it is a lot of fun. But more importantly, it teaches us what's going on in the machine, which can be useful for debugging, and writing code that is likely to be compiled to run fast. And of course, a good knowledge of assembly is essential if you want to write compilers. But writing *everything* in assembly is not the way of good software engineering, for all the reasons I mentioned above. While you write your programs in assembly language, everyone else is writing code in half the time, debugging it in a quarter the time, and it can be changed more easily to add new features or adapt to changing requirements. And it runs just as fast, too! The focus in software engineering these days is not on more performance: we've already solved that problem. The focus is on developing things on time, on budget, that meet the ever-changing requirements. Assembly is a poor choice for all of these needs. Daniela, if you ever want to collaborate on software projects with other programmers, you're not going to be able to do it in assembly language. Bear this in mind as you continue to learn as a programmer. Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 22 19:41:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 151AD16A4CE for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8435A43D41 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:41:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 69412 invoked by uid 555); 23 Apr 2004 06:41:00 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.149.134) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1082688059-69393 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 23 Apr 06:40:59 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6BBE121E; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:40:55 +0400 (MSD) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:40:54 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: Chris Ashlee Message-ID: <20040423024054.GA350@Shark.localdomain> Mail-Followup-To: Sergey Zaharchenko , Chris Ashlee , DoubleF , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <6.0.1.1.1.20040421191223.03ed1a88@imap.sfu.ca> <20040421124817.5811bddb.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040422030636.GA444@Shark.localdomain> <40883C6F.5090602@uvic.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40883C6F.5090602@uvic.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: DoubleF cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 02:41:06 -0000 --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 02:43:11PM -0700, Chris Ashlee probably wrote: > DoubleF wrote: > >[etc] If you think C++ can be translated to C, just translate this: > > > >// one module > > > >class A > >{ > >public: > > A(); > >}; > > > >A::A() > >{ > > /* some code here */ > >} > > > >static A a; > > > >// another module, which doesn't know about the former's existance > > > >int > >main(void) > >{ > > /* some other code here */ > >} > > >=20 > Based on my (limited) knowledge of C++, the constructor for the object=20 > 'a' of type A will be called before main... Yes, that's the catch... > So if you were to translate=20 > this to C, the other module, which doesn't know about the A module,=20 > would have to have a call to the constructor inserted before any other=20 > code in main, and 'a' would have to be referenced from the module=20 > containing main. >=20 > So it seems that some information would be lost in the translation to C,= =20 > namely that some details of other modules should not be visible.=20 > However, the compiled code for both the C++ program and the C=20 > translation could well wind up the same. You would have to translate a program as a whole, not on a file-per-ile basis, then. I agree that in the end you will get something compilable --- but it will have large dependency chains which aren't really necessary, and you'd have to recompile the main module each time the A module's interface changes, which is certainly inefficient...=20 > Any high-level optimizations=20 > that can be done on C++ but not C could probably be done in the=20 > translation itself. Remember, C is basically a glorified, portable=20 > assembly language, and just about anything can be translated to it -=20 > even machine code. It's translating to a more high-level language that's= =20 > hard. What you surely can't translate is the A module without the main module. Suppose I want a shlib to initialize itself when it's loaded. I create a static object and GCC does the rest of the stuff for me (like creating an init function visible to the linker). But what would you do in C (of course, you want it portable, so no init hacks, please...). --=20 DoubleF Fourth Law of Revision: It is usually impractical to worry beforehand about interferences -- if you have none, someone will make one for you. --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAiII1wo7hT/9lVdwRApC9AJ4gNgUwH9pIFhJOizQY6vZZgpHBhwCfUAkB deWeN5cAG9fGlq2nUSBJEII= =0Ull -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 22 19:53:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 363A016A4CE for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 02A5843D39 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:53:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 71453 invoked by uid 555); 23 Apr 2004 06:53:01 +0400 Received: from shark (213.80.149.134) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1082688780-71437 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 23 Apr 06:53:00 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7B57A238; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:52:57 +0400 (MSD) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:52:57 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: Chris Ashlee Message-ID: <20040423025257.GB350@Shark.localdomain> Mail-Followup-To: Sergey Zaharchenko , Chris Ashlee , DoubleF , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200404151110.i3FBAaoo048373@adsl-68-76-19-75.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net> <200404171050.29467.dgw@liwest.at> <20040417123848.GA244@Shark.localdomain> <200404202139.53518.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421162837.GA296@Shark.localdomain> <40884502.9060301@uvic.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40884502.9060301@uvic.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: DoubleF cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 02:53:04 -0000 --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 03:19:46PM -0700, Chris Ashlee probably wrote: >=20 > All of these are good points, and debunk assembly's supposed advantages.= =20 > But the difficulty of writing fast assembly code on any decent=20 > architecture (ie. not x86) is really the least of its problems. The=20 > worst of its problems: >=20 > 1) It takes longer to write, > 2) It takes longer to debug, > 3) It's much harder for others to understand, > 4) It's MUCH harder to change, > 5) It limits you to one CPU architecture. > These have been mentioned already; somehow, they didn't seem to persuade someone we wished to persuade:) >=20 > But writing *everything* in assembly is not the way of good software=20 > engineering, for all the reasons I mentioned above. While you write your= =20 > programs in assembly language, everyone else is writing code in half the= =20 > time, debugging it in a quarter the time, and it can be changed more=20 > easily to add new features or adapt to changing requirements. And it=20 > runs just as fast, too! > > The focus in software engineering these days is not on more performance:= =20 > we've already solved that problem. The focus is on developing things on= =20 > time, on budget, that meet the ever-changing requirements. Assembly is a= =20 > poor choice for all of these needs. Daniela, if you ever want to=20 > collaborate on software projects with other programmers, you're not=20 > going to be able to do it in assembly language. Bear this in mind as you= =20 > continue to learn as a programmer. >=20 I don't really like the `programming means managing time and budget' approach. Too many people here in our university don't have the sense of measure in these things, and they start mixing the process of programming with the process of getting money for nothing:). But maintainability is really important. So, for me, the 4) point wins, with 3) as its closest rival. --=20 DoubleF "He's the kind of man for the times that need the kind of man he is ..." --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAiIUIwo7hT/9lVdwRAkHjAJ4yKOwYNvApJS9EJnyoJfjT74STTACfRkqU cKpeB5xkFhh0GTrqzB9y3R8= =wNbu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 22 20:23:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7BD716A4CE for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hunger.joshualokken.com (63-226-239-158.tukw.qwest.net [63.226.239.158]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC2A43D41 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:23:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joshua@twobirds.us) Received: from freebsd.jolok.org ([10.0.0.3] helo=jolok.org) by hunger.joshualokken.com with smtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BGqGD-00009g-S5; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:17:49 -0700 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:23:54 -0700 From: Joshua Lokken To: ben@twobirds.us Message-ID: <20040423032354.GC57928@freebsd.jolok.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="KsGdsel6WgEHnImy" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Organization: Little to none... X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:11:27 -0700 Subject: Fw: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 03:23:38 -0000 --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline -- Joshua "It's like being married to my best friend (and he lets me feel his boobs.)" -- Homer Simpson --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from localhost (localhost.jolok.org [127.0.0.1]) by freebsd.jolok.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i3MLkIfV020230 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:46:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org) Envelope-to: joshua@twobirds.us Delivery-date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:43:45 -0700 Received: from twobirds.us [24.18.214.102] by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.2.5) for joshua@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [216.136.204.119] (helo=mx2.freebsd.org) by voyager.twobirds.us with esmtp (Exim 4.31; FreeBSD) id 1BGlyz-0001tY-Ak for joshua@twobirds.us; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:43:45 -0700 Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D6957836; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:43:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F32516A4CF; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D588E16A4CE for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle.comp.uvic.ca (castle.comp.uvic.ca [142.104.5.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14FA43D3F for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:43:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisa@uvic.ca) Received: from uvic.ca (S01060050bab00fcb.gv.shawcable.net [24.68.226.164]) i3MLhB5w4989020; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:43:11 -0700 Message-ID: <40883C6F.5090602@uvic.ca> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:43:11 -0700 From: Chris Ashlee User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DoubleF References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <6.0.1.1.1.20040421191223.03ed1a88@imap.sfu.ca> <20040421124817.5811bddb.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040422030636.GA444@Shark.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <20040422030636.GA444@Shark.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UVic-Virus-Scanned: OK - Passed virus scan by Sophos (sophie) on castle X-UVic-Spam-Scan: castle.comp.uvic.ca Not_scanned_LOCAL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.33 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-UIDL: 'R["!oJ>!!;B-"!!nP"! DoubleF wrote: > [etc] If you think C++ can be translated to C, just translate this: > > // one module > > class A > { > public: > A(); > }; > > A::A() > { > /* some code here */ > } > > static A a; > > // another module, which doesn't know about the former's existance > > int > main(void) > { > /* some other code here */ > } > Based on my (limited) knowledge of C++, the constructor for the object 'a' of type A will be called before main... So if you were to translate this to C, the other module, which doesn't know about the A module, would have to have a call to the constructor inserted before any other code in main, and 'a' would have to be referenced from the module containing main. So it seems that some information would be lost in the translation to C, namely that some details of other modules should not be visible. However, the compiled code for both the C++ program and the C translation could well wind up the same. Any high-level optimizations that can be done on C++ but not C could probably be done in the translation itself. Remember, C is basically a glorified, portable assembly language, and just about anything can be translated to it - even machine code. It's translating to a more high-level language that's hard. Chris _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 24 06:14:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607F816A4CE for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terpsi.otenet.gr (terpsi.otenet.gr [195.170.0.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 325C543D2D for ; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:14:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b197.otenet.gr [212.205.244.205]) by terpsi.otenet.gr (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i3ODEVaU016381; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:14:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i3ODEPl4001437; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:14:25 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i3ODEIZY001436; Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:14:18 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:14:18 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Chris Pressey Message-ID: <20040424131418.GA1318@gothmog.gr> References: <200404202124.50967.dgw@liwest.at> <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040421110548.20d8e75c.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> cc: Dan MacMillan cc: dgw@liwest.at cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beginning C++ in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:14:48 -0000 On 2004-04-21 11:05, Chris Pressey wrote: >On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:28:48 -0600 >Dan MacMillan wrote: >>>>> From: Daniela >>>>> Sent: April 17, 2004 04:50 >>>>> >>>>> OO languages can be optimized differently than non-OO languages, >>>>> and when you translate one language into another, this advantage >>>>> gets lost. >>>> >>>> I challenge you to defend this claim with a specific example. >>> >>> I don't really have a specific example, but it's quite the same with >>> human languages. The more often a text is translated, the more >>> useless information >>> gets added to it. And if the original text is beautifully written, >>> it is often total crap when you translate it back. >> >> These are not analagous. The reason things get lost in the >> translation of human language is that it is not possible to represent >> every expression in one human language with complete precision in >> another. > > I challenge you to defend this (Sapir-Worfian) claim with a specific > example. :) A single Greek word for which there isn't an equivalent word in English -- and I mean exact equivalent, including all the possible meanings and nuances that this word can express in the Greek language -- should be enough as an example, right? This isn't an "expression", it is a single word, but there's no reason why a single word cannot be considered an expression either :) - Giorgos