From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 4 19:44:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C82A16A4CE for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:44:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C9A43D2D for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:44:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1BhCvO-0005BC-Ak; Sun, 04 Jul 2004 20:45:18 +0100 Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 20:45:18 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Daniel Staal Message-ID: <20040704194518.GN43549@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <200407041750.i64HoGgh002009@dax.pksnet.com> <031D3BE4982631E3DB8BA47E@[192.168.1.50]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <031D3BE4982631E3DB8BA47E@[192.168.1.50]> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Paul Subject: Re: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 19:44:34 -0000 [another strand moved to -chat] On Sun, Jul 04, 2004 at 02:01:21PM -0400, Daniel Staal wrote: > Define 'experienced' so I can put it on my resumes. (I'm not sure if I'm > kidding...) And that, indeed, is the *exact* point that so many fail to grasp. You've just summed up CPD, Accreditation and the purpose of vendor-certification through examination in one sentence. Well done. Have another certification... :-) -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 4 21:31:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E33616A4CF for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 21:31:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from jive.SoftHome.net (jive.SoftHome.net [66.54.152.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D59043D45 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 21:31:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from carnaily@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 31967 invoked by uid 417); 4 Jul 2004 21:26:22 -0000 Received: from shunt-smtp-out-0 (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.3.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2004 21:26:22 -0000 Received: from Smartster ([81.1.195.2]) (AUTH: LOGIN carnaily@softhome.net) by softhome.net with esmtp; Sun, 04 Jul 2004 15:26:21 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Andreas Carnaily Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 22:26:48 -0000 Message-ID: User-Agent: Opera7.23/FreeBSD M2 build 518 X-Mime-Autoconverted: from 8bit to 7bit by courier 0.38 Subject: Neural Networking X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 21:31:39 -0000 Hello All Kiddy chaters! I've posted this topic first here because this is not serious yet (I hope. :)) I am interesting, is there some place for artifical intelligence in FreeBSD project? I have some knowledge and practice, but cann't find where it needed. Maybe you know guys? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 04:22:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71AF516A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 04:22:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.latnet.lv (mail.latnet.lv [159.148.108.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D46543D2D for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 04:22:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lists@perespim.net) Received: (qmail 8404 invoked by uid 64014); 5 Jul 2004 04:22:39 -0000 Received: from lists@perespim.net by mail by uid 64011 with qmail-scanner-1.16 (clamscan: 0.54. Clear:. Processed in 0.077315 secs); 05 Jul 2004 04:22:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?159.148.112.179?) (159.148.112.179) by mail.latnet.lv with SMTP; 5 Jul 2004 04:22:39 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:25:33 +0300 From: Alexander X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.11.02) CD5BF9353B3B7091 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <17826380.20040705072533@perespim.net> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: test X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Alexander List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 04:22:41 -0000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 16:03:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EFF416A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:03:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from illinois.dyndns.org (adsl-68-76-168-142.dsl.spfdil.ameritech.net [68.76.168.142]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 658F443D39 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:03:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bja@Illinois.DynDNS.Org) Received: from illinois.dyndns.org (localhost.illinois.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by illinois.dyndns.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EB41B8A04F; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:21:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 192.168.1.238 (SquirrelMail authenticated user bja) by Illinois.DynDNS.Org with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:21:19 -0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <32837.192.168.1.238.1089022879.squirrel@Illinois.DynDNS.Org> In-Reply-To: References: <20040704121112.GK43549@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:21:19 -0000 (GMT) From: bja@Illinois.DynDNS.Org To: "Jeremy C. Reed" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal cc: "freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:03:00 -0000 > As for learning via reading: that is fine for many -- including myself. > But many students need the extra push by actually attending a structured, > hands-on class. Also classes, even running at a slow pace, can cover a > lot more than a student trying to self-teach themselves. I disagree here. I'm a self-taught student and I doubt any classes would have taught me as much as installing the system and using it day to day for a couple months. I eventually set up a FreeBSD and my family and I rely on it for just about all computer functions. Hands-on is great, but classes are not needed. Brandon Adams > > Jeremy C. Reed > > BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links > http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-jobs > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-jobs-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 16:08:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33ED216A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:08:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FBB43D55 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:08:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from racerx.makeworld.com (racerx@racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) by makeworld.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65G88O2043013 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:08:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) From: Chris To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:08:08 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20040704121112.GK43549@iconoplex.co.uk> <32837.192.168.1.238.1089022879.squirrel@Illinois.DynDNS.Org> In-Reply-To: <32837.192.168.1.238.1089022879.squirrel@Illinois.DynDNS.Org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407051108.08551.racerx@makeworld.com> X-makeworld.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-makeworld.com-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: racerx@makeworld.com Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: racerx@makeworld.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:08:18 -0000 On Monday 05 July 2004 05:21 am, bja@Illinois.DynDNS.Org wrote: > > As for learning via reading: that is fine for many -- including myself. > > But many students need the extra push by actually attending a structured, > > hands-on class. Also classes, even running at a slow pace, can cover a > > lot more than a student trying to self-teach themselves. > > I disagree here. I'm a self-taught student and I doubt any classes would > have taught me as much as installing the system and using it day to day > for a couple months. I eventually set up a FreeBSD and my family and I > rely on it for just about all computer functions. > > Hands-on is great, but classes are not needed. > > Brandon Adams I agree 100% here. Nothing, I mean nothing can prepare you for real-life then setting up your own servers, then breaking them every way you can think of just to fix the issues. You can't learn that in a classroom. -- Best regards, Chris -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ClamAV virus dat updated: Mon Jul 5 2004 at 03:02:56 daily.cvd updated (version: 387, sigs: 1362, f-level: 2, builder: diego) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 16:17:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 597A516A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:17:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 963CC43D45 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:17:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i65GHNCl035545; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:17:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200407051108.08551.racerx@makeworld.com> References: <20040704121112.GK43549@iconoplex.co.uk> <32837.192.168.1.238.1089022879.squirrel@Illinois.DynDNS.Org> <200407051108.08551.racerx@makeworld.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 18:17:24 +0200 To: racerx@makeworld.com From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:17:27 -0000 At 11:08 AM -0500 2004-07-05, Chris wrote: > I agree 100% here. Nothing, I mean nothing can prepare you for real-life then > setting up your own servers, then breaking them every way you can think of > just to fix the issues. > > You can't learn that in a classroom. Actually, the problem here is that you, as students, cannot possibly think of all the possible ways to break the machines in question. The instructors can't either, but they'll be able to think of a lot more of the sorts of things that are frequently found in production systems. This is a situation where you need someone who is more experienced than you are to break the systems, and then let you try to fix them. Moreover, you should have a limited amount of time to try to fix them. This is something you are highly unlikely to be able to simulate outside of a laboratory environment that is associated with classes being taught. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 16:19:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50EA916A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:19:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B66343D1D for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:19:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gh@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-147-157.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.147.157]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54F676EEB9; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:19:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 42A9220F22; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:19:50 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:19:49 -0500 From: "Daniel M. Kurry" To: Chris Message-ID: <20040705161949.GO30204@over-yonder.net> References: <20040704121112.GK43549@iconoplex.co.uk> <32837.192.168.1.238.1089022879.squirrel@Illinois.DynDNS.Org> <200407051108.08551.racerx@makeworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200407051108.08551.racerx@makeworld.com> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i-fullermd.2 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:19:54 -0000 Chris said something like: > I agree 100% here. Nothing, I mean nothing can prepare you for real-life then > setting up your own servers, then breaking them every way you can think of > just to fix the issues. > > You can't learn that in a classroom. So, you couldn't, like, have a class where you fix a broken server? A class need not revolve around a broken textbook or the rote memorizing of material. Dan > -- > Best regards, > Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 16:27:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2502516A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:27:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from illinois.dyndns.org (adsl-68-76-168-142.dsl.spfdil.ameritech.net [68.76.168.142]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D926A43D5C for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:27:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bja@illinois.dyndns.org) Received: from illinois.dyndns.org (localhost.illinois.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by illinois.dyndns.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9BB468A04F; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:45:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 192.168.1.238 (SquirrelMail authenticated user bja) by Illinois.DynDNS.Org with HTTP; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:45:43 -0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <32866.192.168.1.238.1089024343.squirrel@Illinois.DynDNS.Org> In-Reply-To: References: <20040704121112.GK43549@iconoplex.co.uk><32837.192.168.1.238.1089022879.squirrel@Illinois.DynDNS.Org><200407051108.08551.racerx@makeworld.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:45:43 -0000 (GMT) From: "Brandon Joseph Adams" To: "Brad Knowles" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux NetworkAdministrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:27:20 -0000 > At 11:08 AM -0500 2004-07-05, Chris wrote: > >> I agree 100% here. Nothing, I mean nothing can prepare you for >> real-life then >> setting up your own servers, then breaking them every way you can think >> of >> just to fix the issues. >> >> You can't learn that in a classroom. > > Actually, the problem here is that you, as students, cannot > possibly think of all the possible ways to break the machines in > question. The instructors can't either, but they'll be able to think > of a lot more of the sorts of things that are frequently found in > production systems. > > This is a situation where you need someone who is more > experienced than you are to break the systems, and then let you try > to fix them. Moreover, you should have a limited amount of time to > try to fix them. This is something you are highly unlikely to be > able to simulate outside of a laboratory environment that is > associated with classes being taught. >From experience, setting a FreeBSD box on the internet without any clue as to what was going on, there are more than enough people willing to break your box for you that'll leave you with a mess to clean up. I'm not trying to be funny, this is the truth. > > -- > Brad Knowles, > Brandon Joseph Adams bja@illinois.dyndns.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 17:03:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E74016A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:03:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3636E43D3F for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:03:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i65H3MLG037601; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:03:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <32866.192.168.1.238.1089024343.squirrel@Illinois.DynDNS.Org> References: <20040704121112.GK43549@iconoplex.co.uk><32837.192.168.1.238.1089022 879.squirrel@Illinois.DynDNS.Org><200407051108.08551.racerx@makewo rld.com> <32866.192.168.1.238.1089024343.squirrel@Illinois.DynDNS.Org> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:01:17 +0200 To: "Brandon Joseph Adams" From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Brad Knowles cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux NetworkAdministrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:03:27 -0000 At 10:45 AM +0000 2004-07-05, Brandon Joseph Adams wrote: > From experience, setting a FreeBSD box on the internet without any clue as > to what was going on, there are more than enough people willing to break > your box for you that'll leave you with a mess to clean up. I'm not trying > to be funny, this is the truth. That's a different class of problem. As a system admin, you're going to be responsible for fixing not only those very few systems which have been compromised by external attackers, but also the > 90% break-ins which have come from inside personnel exceeding their authorized level of access, as well as the machines which have been munged because you (or one of your co-workers) fat-fingered something. Just leaving an open box on the 'net and trying to fix whatever comes up is a very poor way to try to learn about all those other classes of problems. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 17:19:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 466BF16A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:19:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cpe-024-165-114-048.cinci.rr.com [24.165.114.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F8643D4C for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:19:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i65HJkcI055819; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:19:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by www.bluecirclesoft.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i65HJkpT055818; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:19:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami) From: Marc Ramirez Organization: Blue Circle Software Corp. To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, racerx@makeworld.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:19:34 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20040704121112.GK43549@iconoplex.co.uk> <32837.192.168.1.238.1089022879.squirrel@Illinois.DynDNS.Org> <200407051108.08551.racerx@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: <200407051108.08551.racerx@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200407051319.42499.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:19:48 -0000 =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 05 July 2004 12:08 pm, Chris wrote: > On Monday 05 July 2004 05:21 am, bja@Illinois.DynDNS.Org wrote: > > > As for learning via reading: that is fine for many -- including mysel= f. > > > But many students need the extra push by actually attending a > > > structured, hands-on class. Also classes, even running at a slow pace, > > > can cover a lot more than a student trying to self-teach themselves. > > > > I disagree here. I'm a self-taught student and I doubt any classes would > > have taught me as much as installing the system and using it day to day > > for a couple months. I eventually set up a FreeBSD and my family and I > > rely on it for just about all computer functions. > > > > Hands-on is great, but classes are not needed. > > > > Brandon Adams > > I agree 100% here. Nothing, I mean nothing can prepare you for real-life > then setting up your own servers, then breaking them every way you can > think of just to fix the issues. > > You can't learn that in a classroom. Classrooms are not a substitute for experience. =20 However, don't forget the original author's point that _for many students_= =20 they need the class. And, yes, they don't strictly _need_ the class, but=20 there are a large variety of reasons that they need someone to be there wit= h=20 them while learning. I would venture that with the historical preponderance= =20 of trade guilds, master/apprentice relationships, centers of education, etc= =2E,=20 that the a large part of the population falls into this category. Without that, you will have an elitist club whose members just happen to ha= ve =20 already acquired the ability to understand the basic concepts. =2D --=20 Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) http://www.bluecirclesoft.com http://www.mrami.com (personal) =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFA6Y2sg1EgpGw750IRAj8nAKCbKHuKzDSe3ZR9NhEhObs3nIYE2wCfT5YH IAElrmcnCk90ou74a8M/eGE=3D =3Dr8AV =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 17:36:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E7216A4CF for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:36:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web80803.mail.yahoo.com (web80803.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.170.98]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D9C5C43D49 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:36:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cmc4slack-freebsd@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040705173605.28698.qmail@web80803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [192.35.232.241] by web80803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 10:36:05 PDT Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:36:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Conn To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: freebsd and dragonfly bsd X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:36:06 -0000 Hi, I've been a FreeBSD user for a while, am currently running 4.8, haven't tried version 5 yet. I haven't been reading the mailing lists or web sites much until now. I saw the web page for Dragonfly BSD and it implies that there were design differences with version 5 that led to this new version but I don't really have a feel for what the differences are, can somebody tell me about this change? Or are there political issues that led to this? ===== Christopher Mark Conn http://storm.cadcam.iupui.edu/~cmcgoat Austin, Texas, USA From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 17:39:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19E916A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:39:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECB943D2D for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:39:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF9193D34; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:39:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Chris Conn Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:39:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <40E95A08.1692.D89B9D62@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20040705173605.28698.qmail@web80803.mail.yahoo.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd and dragonfly bsd X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:39:21 -0000 On 5 Jul 2004 at 10:36, Chris Conn wrote: > Hi, I've been a FreeBSD user for a while, > am currently running 4.8, haven't tried > version 5 yet. I haven't been reading the > mailing lists or web sites much until now. > > I saw the web page for Dragonfly BSD and > it implies that there were design differences > with version 5 that led to this new version > but I don't really have a feel for what the > differences are, can somebody tell me about > this change? Or are there political issues > that led to this? I would think that the Dragonfly BSD lists would be the better place to ask about Dragonfly BSD... -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 18:40:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F57216A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 18:40:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D830F43D1F for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 18:40:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vkaul@ma.rr.com) Received: from gogobera.ma.rr.com (dhcp024-160-210-151.ma.rr.com [24.160.210.151])i65IePVd017978; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:39:54 -0500 To: "Dan Langille" , "Chris Conn" References: <40E95A08.1692.D89B9D62@localhost> From: "Vijay Kaul" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <40E95A08.1692.D89B9D62@localhost> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.51 (Win32, build 3798) X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd and dragonfly bsd X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:40:29 -0000 On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:39:20 -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > On 5 Jul 2004 at 10:36, Chris Conn wrote: > >> Hi, I've been a FreeBSD user for a while, >> am currently running 4.8, haven't tried >> version 5 yet. I haven't been reading the >> mailing lists or web sites much until now. >> >> I saw the web page for Dragonfly BSD and >> it implies that there were design differences >> with version 5 that led to this new version >> but I don't really have a feel for what the >> differences are, can somebody tell me about >> this change? Or are there political issues >> that led to this? > > I would think that the Dragonfly BSD lists would be the better place > to ask about Dragonfly BSD... Having visited the DFly site and looked for info myself, I've found enough reasons why going the way DFly has is a worth while idea. However, knowing that both the DFly and FBSD people are skilled and experienced coders, I'm sure that *both* sides have their ups and downs. For getting FBSD's side of the story, I figure the FBSD lists would actually be a better place to ask. The two reasons I hesitate to ask: 1) major decisions like the branching of code into an entirely seperate (okay, as seperate as two BSDs get) project is a big decision. Many people will have taken many stances on the decisions that were made. Some of these people may be very good at provoking others of these people. I'm new here: I don't know. I do not want to dredge up old arguments. 2) I'm not sure where it would be appropriate to ask. A lot of the differences aren't so much conceptual as technical. So I feel like "chat" might be a bit off topic. However, hackers and current and stable and such don't feel right either. Anyhow, if anyone could maybe point to a "the FBSD team stance on DFly's SMP threading model," or some such resource, give a consice relatively unbiased recap of what happened, and/or answer the question in some other way, please do! I'm sure there are more of us who are very curious to know. (Also, if this should be posted elsewhere, please move the discussion there. Thanks.) -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 18:58:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C6716A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 18:58:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C4B43D46 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 18:58:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1BhYfy-0000Li-00; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:58:50 -0700 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:58:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: bja@Illinois.DynDNS.Org In-Reply-To: <32837.192.168.1.238.1089022879.squirrel@Illinois.DynDNS.Org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: "freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:58:58 -0000 On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 bja@Illinois.DynDNS.Org wrote: > > As for learning via reading: that is fine for many -- including myself. > > But many students need the extra push by actually attending a structured, > > hands-on class. Also classes, even running at a slow pace, can cover a > > lot more than a student trying to self-teach themselves. > > I disagree here. I'm a self-taught student and I doubt any classes would > have taught me as much as installing the system and using it day to day > for a couple months. I eventually set up a FreeBSD and my family and I > rely on it for just about all computer functions. > > Hands-on is great, but classes are not needed. Many of my students have limited time and limited interest to learn FreeBSD on their own. But their employers are interested for them to take multiple days of hands-on training. Also, learning over a "couple months" is too slow versus a class that can teach many skills with real experiences in a few days. And as others mentioned, trying to learn on your own may not provide with the real-world experiences that a qualified instructor can provide. An example of something we do in some of our classes is teach basics of BIND and Apache, and then the students apply the skills to configure named.conf, create their own zone file(s) and then setup httpd.conf for virtual hosting, for some real hands-on experiences. Often I have students that have years of Unix experience, even back to the 1980's, who have told me many times: "I didn't know you could do it that way", "I wish I knew that before", "That is something I had difficulty learning on my own", "I have wanted to learn that for a long time", etc. Yes, the students could have learned in an alternative way, but sometimes paying money encourages you to learn differently. Jeremy C. Reed open source, Unix, *BSD, Linux training http://www.pugetsoundtechnology.com/ p.s. Notice the To: line. It says "jobs" but the address is chat. Funny. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 21:10:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE7116A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:10:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (mproxy.gmail.com [216.239.56.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E56A743D49 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:10:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from torstenvl@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id r65so185695cwc for ; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.11.120.25 with SMTP id s25mr194500cwc; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <126eac4804070514105924929b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:10:28 -0500 From: Josh Ockert To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <40E95A08.1692.D89B9D62@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <40E95A08.1692.D89B9D62@localhost> Subject: Re: freebsd and dragonfly bsd X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:10:29 -0000 I like how whenever there's a schism between two parties, it's always the minority that is supposed to play apologetics and explain what the differing philosophies are. IMO, someone looking to compare between two different camps is valid in asking either or both camps about what makes them unique. On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:39:20 -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > On 5 Jul 2004 at 10:36, Chris Conn wrote: > > > Hi, I've been a FreeBSD user for a while, > > am currently running 4.8, haven't tried > > version 5 yet. I haven't been reading the > > mailing lists or web sites much until now. > > > > I saw the web page for Dragonfly BSD and > > it implies that there were design differences > > with version 5 that led to this new version > > but I don't really have a feel for what the > > differences are, can somebody tell me about > > this change? Or are there political issues > > that led to this? > > I would think that the Dragonfly BSD lists would be the better place > to ask about Dragonfly BSD... > -- > Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 6 00:18:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC59F16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:18:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04F443D45 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:18:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA913D34; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:18:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Josh Ockert Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 20:18:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <40E9B77F.18387.DA08BB23@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <126eac4804070514105924929b@mail.gmail.com> References: <40E95A08.1692.D89B9D62@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd and dragonfly bsd X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:18:11 -0000 On 5 Jul 2004 at 16:10, Josh Ockert wrote: > On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:39:20 -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > > On 5 Jul 2004 at 10:36, Chris Conn wrote: > > > > > Hi, I've been a FreeBSD user for a while, > > > am currently running 4.8, haven't tried > > > version 5 yet. I haven't been reading the > > > mailing lists or web sites much until now. > > > > > > I saw the web page for Dragonfly BSD and > > > it implies that there were design differences > > > with version 5 that led to this new version > > > but I don't really have a feel for what the > > > differences are, can somebody tell me about > > > this change? Or are there political issues > > > that led to this? > > > > I would think that the Dragonfly BSD lists would be the better place > > to ask about Dragonfly BSD... > I like how whenever there's a schism between two parties, it's always > the minority that is supposed to play apologetics and explain what the > differing philosophies are. That is not that was asked. We were asked to explain why Dragonfly BSD was created. Not about the FreeBSD philosophy. > IMO, someone looking to compare between two different camps is valid > in asking either or both camps about what makes them unique. Asking us about FreeBSD is quite valid. But that's not what was asked. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 6 07:51:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF00916A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:51:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA7143D2D for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:51:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1Bhkko-000GW5-DM; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:52:38 +0100 Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:52:38 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Message-ID: <20040706075238.GX43549@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <32837.192.168.1.238.1089022879.squirrel@Illinois.DynDNS.Org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" cc: bja@Illinois.DynDNS.Org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 07:51:53 -0000 I should warn you that even for me, this is a long e-mail. some of you should just hit 'D' now - this is not for the easily bored. :-) On Mon, Jul 05, 2004 at 11:58:50AM -0700, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > Many of my students have limited time and limited interest to learn > FreeBSD on their own. But their employers are interested for them to take > multiple days of hands-on training. No, not always. > Also, learning over a "couple months" is too slow versus a class that can > teach many skills with real experiences in a few days. You're making a mistake here. You're making a lot of assumptions that even the worst academics threw out with the bathwater a decade ago. I know you're not an academic, so it's not your fault. I'll try and help your mind get through this, but this might be a bit terse. I'll say this again for clarity before I go on - this is my job, I do it for a living, I work on a GBP 3.3 million publically-funded project in a University to deliver learning to those working in the IT industry in the North West of the UK, I've been working with a research group on this for two years.... if this was a legal discussion, we'd all be "IANAL", but in this context, I *am* an expert. For the last 12 months I have lived and breathed pedagogical analysis, accreditation frameworks, learning objects, etc., etc... Right then, now that's out of the way, Most are in general agreement that JIT (Just In Time) Work-based learning is what most people working in our industry do. That means you're sat at your desk, you have a problem, you don't know how to solve it, you go out and try and find out how to do it. With OSS this typically involves google, some mailing list archives and perhaps a mail to a list where you think you might get some help. You do not have the time to phone up a training company and spend 4 days in a classroom next month at a cost of several hundred quid, because you need the knowledge *now*. There are two problems here: 1. The "student" is always learning "just enough" to "get by" and so his employer suffers, as maybe half the time the employee is learning rather than doing. 2. It does not allow for accreditation/certification as it's unstructured. So, a scheme was dreamt up allowing for evidence-based accreditation. This would mean that you could show me a webserver you setup as evidence you know how to setup a webserver. I could ask you to produe a httpd.conf that allows for multiple virtual hosts to be quickly created, and you provide your evidence which I can then assess within the context of an accreditation framework. This could blend with a traditional framework where you are expected to take some form of examination, or in fact be completly replaced by it if you're just starting out in the industry, to help learners gain certifications. It has the advantage that it takes into account existing knowledge and experience whilst still allowing a clear pathway through for those who have no work-based experience. We are assessing knowledge after all, not experience. All accreditations do, with the possible exception of those that are so hard, the only way you can pass is with experience (e.g. CCIE) So, a student could go out, get the accreditation and an employer would have a clear indication of an employee's competencies, and the employee would not be constantly scrabbling for knowledge - they would have all the knowledge needed to do a particular job. They would still be able to do JIT learning if needed, but on providing evidence of that learning, they would be able to make the time spent on it fit into "accredited study". Neat, huh? But this doesn't really work either. The biggest problems are: 1. The accreditation frameworks don't exist, and this is partly because job roles are ill-defined within the industry (what is a "Sysadmin"? what fits in one company, doesn't in another) and can never be well-defined enough to make such a framework easy to produce. 2. You need to structure learning materials to make it easier to fit a learner's knowledge against an accreditation framework - they need to know what they're actually being asked to learn, and therefore you need to know what information a person needs to do their job. 3. The learning content is itself currently VERY scarce other than through those ad-hoc channels discussed above, and there is no method to capture tacit knowledge within a piece of structured learning content. Where it does exist, it is typically out of date and of a poor quality, or incredibly expensive. So, the whole point of what I've been trying to say, is that via collaborative working, a set of LOs (Learning Objects) can be built up based on knowledge held by those experts in particular fields that can be mapped against an accreditation framework. This would be able to accomodate tacit knowledge, could be quickly built up to take into account emerging trends, etc. and yet still act as a framework for instructor-led, on-line or other forms of learning. If you want a certification to actually hold water with employers, you can't just say "let's get people to fix a broken server". It is more complicated than that. Fixing a server shows a competency, but a competency is only one part of what needs to be tested for a certification to stand up. Your short term solution provides a sufficient enough answer to address immediate structured training needs. It does not, however, fit into a long-term plan to provide accredited learning and structured certifications that can be recognised internationally. Of course, that's not your current aim, which is why you can live happily doing what you're doing. But really, now we're talking about moving into a different realm, you're not going to be able to map what you're doing across easily as "the way to do it". You need to think outside the box a little. :-) I'm afraid that quite frankly, I don't know how to convince you otherwise without you going out, spending a lot of time and effort building up what you want to do and then for you to wonder why it doesn't get the recognition you feel it deserves. I could send you a dozen books on the matter, but they're not light reading material, and I'm not paying the postage. :-) What I will do though, is take these notes made here, merge them into the open training stuff up on Vagueware, and see if that begins to make any sense. If it doesn't, no worries - the fault is with me, and I haven't explained what all this means properly. If it does, then maybe we can start to make something happen. I'm not saying my suggestion is perfect, but it stands up to academic scrutiny more than anything else discussed so far, so let's start with that and let it evolve a little and see where it goes? As all this lot will go into a wiki, you can edit it to your heart's content anyway, or even delete it. :-) > And as others mentioned, trying to learn on your own may not provide with > the real-world experiences that a qualified instructor can provide. Define "qualified" instructor. You're talking about instructor-led training, which seems an odd segregation to make in the age of blended learning. Ideally, you need a mixture of instructor-led, workshop, textbook, tutorial, etc. and these would ideally be a mixture of on-line, classroom-based, whatever. It is rather naive to say that "instructor-led training is best", as people on this thread have already said - different people need to learn in different ways. > Yes, the students could have learned in an alternative way, but sometimes > paying money encourages you to learn differently. The level of absorbtion is not governed by how much money has been spent. In some countries, higher education is still free you know. :-) -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 9 00:24:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7B416A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:24:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D81B443D5A for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:24:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 250B33D3D; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:24:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Chris Conn Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 20:24:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <40EDAD61.17305.E9817C84@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20040705173605.28698.qmail@web80803.mail.yahoo.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd and dragonfly bsd X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:24:03 -0000 On 5 Jul 2004 at 10:36, Chris Conn wrote: > Hi, I've been a FreeBSD user for a while, > am currently running 4.8, haven't tried > version 5 yet. I haven't been reading the > mailing lists or web sites much until now. > > I saw the web page for Dragonfly BSD and > it implies that there were design differences > with version 5 that led to this new version > but I don't really have a feel for what the > differences are, can somebody tell me about > this change? Or are there political issues > that led to this? This should answer your questions: http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/07/08/dragonfly_bsd_interview.htm l -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 9 12:46:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2FDD16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:46:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail006.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail006.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FAAE43D46 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:46:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from syncman@optusnet.com.au) Received: from optusnet.com.au (c211-30-253-10.belrs1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.253.10]) (authenticated)i69CkHx20846 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:46:18 +1000 Message-ID: <40EE9342.6010309@optusnet.com.au> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:44:50 +1000 From: Andrew Sinclair User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: OT: Beastie makes a cameo appearance on apple.com. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 12:46:20 -0000 Warren Block wrote: > (Forwarded from -questions) > > On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, Kevin Stevens wrote: > >> Apple just announced their next OS X release "Tiger", today. While >> browsing through the features, I noticed a Beastie icon nodding >> approvingly at the paragraph on the new FreeBSD 5.x -based kernel: >> >> http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/unix.html > > > > But what about Mach? Did they just throw it out because 5.x offered > everything they needed? > > -Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota USA "The upgraded kernel, based on FreeBSD 5.x..." probably, i'll let you know when I get one in about August. Is that FreeBSD's Access Control Lists I see there? I'd also like more info on HFS resource forks. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 10 17:43:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E147A16A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:43:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EDD443D55 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:43:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from daleco.biz ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:45:33 -0500 Message-ID: <40F02ADB.1050106@daleco.biz> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:43:55 -0500 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040406 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jul 2004 17:45:33.0843 (UTC) FILETIME=[B3627E30:01C466A5] Subject: Where should I look for info about about port syntax error(s)? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:43:58 -0000 I'm trying to sort out an issue and am slightly overwhelmed by the number of possible mailing lists I should be looking at... I did "portupgrade -aRr" this week, and epiphany failed: In file included from ContentHandler.cpp:30: MozDownload.h:108: error: syntax error before `virtual' Line 108 in "MozDownload.h" is: virtual ~MozDownload(); That's rendered in my editor as a superscript "tilde". I figured this to be one of those "easy fixes" that I could perform; the tilde was the mistake, but removing it gets me nowhere. So many languages, so little time... Anyway, the question is, besides "recvsup your ports", where could I be reading (eg which mailing list) to catch up on these things? ports@? ports-bugs? advocacy? (j/k), I read that one, anyway ... Has this even been noticed or fixed, etc.? If you've a strategy for such things, what is it? Just curious ... I can live with the old epiphany, I imagine... KDK