From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 9 15:27:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC67F16A4CE for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:27:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9500343D2F for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:27:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:24:00 -0500 Message-ID: <411797E3.4040806@daleco.biz> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 10:27:31 -0500 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040712 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2004 15:24:00.0505 (UTC) FILETIME=[E55A7690:01C47E24] Subject: FreeBSD more popular than ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:27:34 -0000 The latest indicator of cultural relevance[1], googlebattle.com, indicates that our OS is more popular than "Microsoft Windows". *RESULTS* * freebsd * *VS.* * microsoft windows * freebsd 10,000,000 (view ) microsoft windows 8,590,000 (view ) *Total Pages Searched:* *18,590,000* GoogleBattle winner is *freebsd* :-D Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. [1] Yes, we could debate that one for a long time. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 9 15:33:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5792B16A4CE for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:33:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 229EB43D2D for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:33:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6105162D9 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:33:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 66780-01 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:33:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE20F62D8 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:33:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <41179955.5020508@makeworld.com> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 10:33:41 -0500 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.2 (X11/20040801) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD - Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: 5.3R Schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:33:49 -0000 Yah!!! http://www.freebsd.org/releases/5.3R/schedule.html However, 4.11???? Now that's some wild numbering. Perhaps it should have been: 4.9, 4.9.1, and now maybe 4.9.1.1 or 4.9.11 or 4.9.1.2 - who knows. -- Best regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 9 15:36:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5D416A4CF for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:36:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568C743D31 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:36:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1BuCCz-00039I-PD; Mon, 09 Aug 2004 16:37:09 +0100 Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 16:37:09 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Message-ID: <20040809153709.GH77351@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <411797E3.4040806@daleco.biz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <411797E3.4040806@daleco.biz> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD more popular than ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:36:58 -0000 On Mon, Aug 09, 2004 at 10:27:31AM -0500, Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > The latest indicator of cultural relevance[1], googlebattle.com, > indicates that our OS is more popular than "Microsoft Windows". Have you seen how far ahead "linux" is though? Fortunately, we get the upper hand back if you search for Linux's "proper name" (according to some) of "GNU/Linux" which is nice. "BSD" is someway behind "GPL" though which in many ways isn't, but the defeat is not as bad as some may have predicted. The win "core" has over "committer" is pretty convincing too which explains a few things. :-) Am I the only person who uses this technique as a spell checker sometimes? For example, when writing an article, I know "CDROM" is preffered for some reason over "CD-ROM" or CD ROM". -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 9 19:37:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29FB16A4CF for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 19:37:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1940C43D1F for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 19:37:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from frauke.lehmann@gmx.de) Received: from [212.227.126.161] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BuFxs-0002MK-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 09 Aug 2004 21:37:48 +0200 Received: from [217.232.23.111] (helo=goliath.local) (TLSv1:EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BuFxr-0002n1-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 09 Aug 2004 21:37:48 +0200 From: Frauke Lehmann To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1092082579.1875.269.camel@goliath.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:16:21 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:b116d098d330a002346ae9f70c429258 Subject: [OT] Survey about FS/OS developers X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 19:37:49 -0000 Sorry for any cross-posting! Hello, My name is Frauke Lehmann and I'm writing my master thesis about the social formation of free software/open source (FS/OS) developers. A questionnaire is one part of my research - besides interviews and observations. It would be really nice, if you supported my survey by filling in my questionnaire (takes 20-30 min). I understand FS/OS developers as people who are writing code (obviously), but also those that write documentation, do translations, design GUIs, or people that take care of the project's infrastructure (mailing lists etc.) or answer users' questions. I'm going to publish my thesis (once it's done) on my website. It will be freely available in German (the orginal) and as an English translation (after some time) and it will be allowed to distribute it freely. If you have any questions about my project, please feel free and email me. Thanks for taking the time reading this mail and hopefully filling in the questionnaire. Which you will find at http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~egal/ Frauke Lehmann ps: Sorry, if this isn't the proper lists to send my request to. If it is not, it would be nice, if you forwarded it the right one. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 9 21:25:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C5E616A4CE for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:25:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED8E643D39 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:25:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id D27BC530D; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:25:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 66D31530C; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:25:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 3D560B872; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:25:29 +0200 (CEST) To: Chris References: <41179955.5020508@makeworld.com> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 23:25:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: <41179955.5020508@makeworld.com> (racerx@makeworld.com's message of "Mon, 09 Aug 2004 10:33:41 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: FreeBSD - Chat Subject: Re: 5.3R Schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 21:25:37 -0000 Chris writes: > http://www.freebsd.org/releases/5.3R/schedule.html > > However, 4.11???? Now that's some wild numbering. Perhaps it should > have been: > > 4.9, 4.9.1, and now maybe 4.9.1.1 or 4.9.11 or 4.9.1.2 - who knows. Excuse me? The latest release from the RELENG_4 branch was 4.10, and the next will be 4.11. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 9 22:31:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A917316A4CE for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:31:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A0F43D1F for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:31:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6989627C; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:31:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05363-05; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:31:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE22D627B; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:31:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <4117FB52.4050504@makeworld.com> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:31:46 -0500 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (X11/20040809) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <41179955.5020508@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: FreeBSD - Chat Subject: Re: 5.3R Schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:31:50 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Chris writes: > >>http://www.freebsd.org/releases/5.3R/schedule.html >> >>However, 4.11???? Now that's some wild numbering. Perhaps it should >>have been: >> >>4.9, 4.9.1, and now maybe 4.9.1.1 or 4.9.11 or 4.9.1.2 - who knows. > > > Excuse me? The latest release from the RELENG_4 branch was 4.10, and > the next will be 4.11. > > DES I was pointing out that yes - there is going to be a 4.11. Perhaps I should have articulated it. The version numbering scheme is odd. For example, there is a 5.2 and a 5.2.1 Perhaps the release after 4.9 should have followed the same pattern - It would have been nice to see it progress something like this: 4.8, 4.9, 4.9.1, 4.9.2 and so on. The 4.9, 4.10 and soon to come 4.11 RELEASES will likely confuse the new users to FreeBSD. -- Best regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 9 22:37:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7EFD16A4CE for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:37:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.uninterruptible.net (mail.uninterruptible.net [64.146.146.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9468043D2D for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:37:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (adsl-068-209-203-168.sip.hsv.bellsouth.net [68.209.203.168]) by ns1.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A9805048A; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:37:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 334253352; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:37:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8234C6E; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:37:20 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:37:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." In-Reply-To: <411797E3.4040806@daleco.biz> Message-ID: X-Mailer: !/bin/sh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD more popular than ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:37:24 -0000 On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > The latest indicator of cultural relevance[1], googlebattle.com, > indicates that our OS is more popular than "Microsoft Windows". > freebsd 10,000,000 (view ) > microsoft windows 8,590,000 (view > ) > *Total Pages Searched:* *18,590,000* > GoogleBattle winner is *freebsd* Taking this far, far off the deep end... 112,000,000 for windows 98,100,000 for microsoft 59,600,000 for god So microsoft is more popular than god....? -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR TGIFreeBSD IM: 'KrisBSD' "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!" - 1984-2004 - 20 yrs of Govt Surveillance This message brought to you by the US Department of Homeland Security From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 9 22:39:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CB8616A4CE for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:39:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.uninterruptible.net (mail.uninterruptible.net [64.146.146.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68A9343D1F for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:39:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (adsl-068-209-203-168.sip.hsv.bellsouth.net [68.209.203.168]) by ns1.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5590850488; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:39:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 5140C3352; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:39:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C5024C6E; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:39:06 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:39:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Chris In-Reply-To: <4117FB52.4050504@makeworld.com> Message-ID: X-Mailer: !/bin/sh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: FreeBSD - Chat Subject: Re: 5.3R Schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:39:18 -0000 On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Chris wrote: > Perhaps the release after 4.9 should have followed the same pattern - > It would have been nice to see it progress something like this: > > 4.8, 4.9, 4.9.1, 4.9.2 and so on. There's been enough about this bikeshed said before. Read some history on the project (perhaps some "undocumented" but email-based history) as to what and why. Lord knows this, like most other stuff, has been hashed out before.... repeatedly... :-/ -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR TGIFreeBSD IM: 'KrisBSD' "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!" - 1984-2004 - 20 yrs of Govt Surveillance This message brought to you by the US Department of Homeland Security From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 9 22:40:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A825116A4ED for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:40:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4442543D95 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:40:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from webmail12.mac.com (webmail12-en1 [10.13.10.118]) by smtpout.mac.com (8.12.6/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id i79MeDkN002420 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail12 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webmail12.mac.com (8.12.6/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i79MeD8W020813 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8099882.1092091213578.JavaMail.lomion@mac.com> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 18:40:13 -0400 From: Lawrence Sica To: chat@freebsd.org in-reply-to: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit references: Subject: Re: FreeBSD more popular than ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:40:32 -0000 On Monday, August 09, 2004, at 06:37PM, Kris Kirby wrote: >Taking this far, far off the deep end... > >112,000,000 for windows >98,100,000 for microsoft >59,600,000 for god > >So microsoft is more popular than god....? > Well the Beatles were bigger than Jesus.... --Larry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 9 22:44:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 738DB16A4CE for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:44:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zaphod.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B651043D39 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:44:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from simon@zaphod.nitro.dk) Received: by zaphod.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 3000) id 4BBD311AB1; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:44:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:44:37 +0200 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Chris Message-ID: <20040809224436.GC750@zaphod.nitro.dk> References: <41179955.5020508@makeworld.com> <4117FB52.4050504@makeworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="XF85m9dhOBO43t/C" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4117FB52.4050504@makeworld.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: FreeBSD - Chat Subject: Re: 5.3R Schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:44:39 -0000 --XF85m9dhOBO43t/C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2004.08.09 17:31:46 -0500, Chris wrote: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > >Chris writes: > > > >>http://www.freebsd.org/releases/5.3R/schedule.html > >> > >>However, 4.11???? Now that's some wild numbering. Perhaps it should > >>have been: > >> > >>4.9, 4.9.1, and now maybe 4.9.1.1 or 4.9.11 or 4.9.1.2 - who knows. > > > > > >Excuse me? The latest release from the RELENG_4 branch was 4.10, and > >the next will be 4.11. > > > >DES >=20 > I was pointing out that yes - there is going to be a 4.11. Perhaps I=20 > should have articulated it. The version numbering scheme is odd. >=20 > For example, there is a 5.2 and a 5.2.1 I think the reason you think it is odd is that you don't see the different between a x.y and a x.y.z release. See http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/releng/release-proc.html for an overview of the 4.X/5.X release history. This is also discussed extensivly in the mailing list archives. --=20 Simon L. Nielsen FreeBSD Documentation Team --XF85m9dhOBO43t/C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBF/5Uh9pcDSc1mlERAjm9AJ9Z/MueFYn/AEb2OKA7sy6Mn+knKwCeIhbc v2BkdLhe3BHu7E9kTY/1fK0= =Vpav -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --XF85m9dhOBO43t/C-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 9 22:49:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE09116A4CE for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:49:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A4A43D48 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:49:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id B606D530D; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:49:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id BC7E6530C; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:49:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 74EA2B872; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:49:01 +0200 (CEST) To: Chris References: <41179955.5020508@makeworld.com> <4117FB52.4050504@makeworld.com> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:49:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4117FB52.4050504@makeworld.com> (racerx@makeworld.com's message of "Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:31:46 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: FreeBSD - Chat Subject: Re: 5.3R Schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:49:10 -0000 Chris writes: > I was pointing out that yes - there is going to be a 4.11. Perhaps I > should have articulated it. The version numbering scheme is odd. There is nothing odd about it. > For example, there is a 5.2 and a 5.2.1 No. There is only 5.2.1. 5.2 was considered unpublishable for a variety of reasons and 5.2.1 was released to replace it before any vendors had actually started printing CDs. Anyone trying to cvsup 5.2 (RELENG_5_2) will get 5.2.1. > Perhaps the release after 4.9 should have followed the same pattern - > It would have been nice to see it progress something like this: > > 4.8, 4.9, 4.9.1, 4.9.2 and so on. > > The 4.9, 4.10 and soon to come 4.11 RELEASES will likely confuse the > new users to FreeBSD. Why would anyone be confused by the fact that the successors to 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, 4.4, 4.5, 4.6, 4.7, 4.8 and 4.9 are 4.10 and 4.11? (4.6 actually ended up being named 4.6.2, much for the same reasons as 5.2 ended up as 5.2.1, but you get the idea) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 9 22:50:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C69616A4D2 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:50:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 102F443D58 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:50:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328B1627C for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:50:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05733-05 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:50:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D727627B for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:50:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <4117FFC9.7050505@makeworld.com> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:50:49 -0500 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (X11/20040809) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD - Chat References: <41179955.5020508@makeworld.com> <4117FB52.4050504@makeworld.com> <20040809224436.GC750@zaphod.nitro.dk> In-Reply-To: <20040809224436.GC750@zaphod.nitro.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: 5.3R Schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:50:53 -0000 Simon L. Nielsen wrote: > On 2004.08.09 17:31:46 -0500, Chris wrote: > >>Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >> >>>Chris writes: >>> >>> >>>>http://www.freebsd.org/releases/5.3R/schedule.html >>>> >>>>However, 4.11???? Now that's some wild numbering. Perhaps it should >>>>have been: >>>> >>>>4.9, 4.9.1, and now maybe 4.9.1.1 or 4.9.11 or 4.9.1.2 - who knows. >>> >>> >>>Excuse me? The latest release from the RELENG_4 branch was 4.10, and >>>the next will be 4.11. >>> >>>DES >> >>I was pointing out that yes - there is going to be a 4.11. Perhaps I >>should have articulated it. The version numbering scheme is odd. >> >>For example, there is a 5.2 and a 5.2.1 > > > I think the reason you think it is odd is that you don't see the > different between a x.y and a x.y.z release. See > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/releng/release-proc.html > for an overview of the 4.X/5.X release history. This is also > discussed extensivly in the mailing list archives. > Oh for fucks sakes - I made a comment in a list entitled "chat" Nothing technical or for that matter, pertinent. To discuss things related to the OS etc. Unbind yer panties ladies. -- Best regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 01:27:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DDF416A4CE for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:27:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fep6.cogeco.net (smtp.cogeco.net [216.221.81.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C19BB43D31 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:27:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from paul.murphy@cogeco.ca) Received: from earth.upton.net (d141-23-108.home.cgocable.net [24.141.23.108]) by fep6.cogeco.net (Postfix) with SMTP id B5C5AE6E for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:27:36 -0400 From: Paul Murphy To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20040809212736.0c6bcd40@earth.upton.net> In-Reply-To: <8099882.1092091213578.JavaMail.lomion@mac.com> References: <8099882.1092091213578.JavaMail.lomion@mac.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.2) X-Face: -Q/~XHbe$z/a List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:27:47 -0000 --Signature=_Mon__9_Aug_2004_21_27_36_-0400_ueEQy34dYy+2crXs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 18:40:13 -0400 Lawrence Sica wrote: > > On Monday, August 09, 2004, at 06:37PM, Kris Kirby > wrote: > > > >Taking this far, far off the deep end... > > > >112,000,000 for windows > >98,100,000 for microsoft > >59,600,000 for god > > > >So microsoft is more popular than god....? > > > > > Well the Beatles were bigger than Jesus.... > > Jesus wins by a long shot: Beatles 5,470,000 Jesus 24,000,000 -- Cogeco ergo sum --Signature=_Mon__9_Aug_2004_21_27_36_-0400_ueEQy34dYy+2crXs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBGCSRtvR7Iq3g7n0RAlNTAJ9wceKVx3w+4KNXvIs+Vos3g+rP/QCgpmXX rV2hcgd/dxP16dfOMsln5n4= =r3Te -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Mon__9_Aug_2004_21_27_36_-0400_ueEQy34dYy+2crXs-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 02:42:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4421516A4CE for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 02:42:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 038A643D3F for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 02:42:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from xeon (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 235AE3D3E; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:42:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@xeon.unixathome.org To: Chris In-Reply-To: <4117FFC9.7050505@makeworld.com> Message-ID: <20040809224103.P82692@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <41179955.5020508@makeworld.com> <4117FB52.4050504@makeworld.com> <20040809224436.GC750@zaphod.nitro.dk> <4117FFC9.7050505@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: FreeBSD - Chat Subject: Re: 5.3R Schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 02:42:05 -0000 On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Chris wrote: > Oh for fucks sakes - I made a comment in a list entitled "chat" Nothing > technical or for that matter, pertinent. To discuss things related to > the OS etc. And, in reply, you got comments. > Unbind yer panties ladies. Be prepared when commenting, wherever, upon matters which have long since been hashed over. -- Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 08:09:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC83916A4CE for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:09:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AAF43D39 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:09:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1BuRhr-000A6o-CX; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:10:03 +0100 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:10:03 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Chris Message-ID: <20040810081003.GB12472@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <41179955.5020508@makeworld.com> <4117FB52.4050504@makeworld.com> <20040809224436.GC750@zaphod.nitro.dk> <4117FFC9.7050505@makeworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4117FFC9.7050505@makeworld.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: FreeBSD - Chat Subject: Re: 5.3R Schedule X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:09:50 -0000 On Mon, Aug 09, 2004 at 05:50:49PM -0500, Chris wrote: > Oh for fucks sakes - I made a comment in a list entitled "chat" Nothing > technical or for that matter, pertinent. To discuss things related to > the OS etc. > > Unbind yer panties ladies. WooooOOOOOOoooo! Get HER! (Raises handbag). -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 13:09:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A028D16A4CE for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:09:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B9843D49 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:09:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from frauke.lehmann@gmx.de) Received: from [212.227.126.161] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BuWNk-0001f2-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:09:36 +0200 Received: from [217.232.2.138] (helo=goliath.local) (TLSv1:EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BuWNj-0001SY-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:09:36 +0200 From: Frauke Lehmann To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1092145715.1879.458.camel@goliath.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:48:37 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:b116d098d330a002346ae9f70c429258 Subject: [OT] The questionnaire is working again X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:09:37 -0000 Hello, I sent a mail to the list yesterday, asking you to participate in my survey. Unfortunately the server was just then being updated and not working. If you tried accessing it during that time, you will have seen an error message and not the questionnaire. It is now back up again and it would be very nice, if you could have another go at filling it in. Thanks a lot to those of you who informed me about the problem. Frauke From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 15:22:30 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851D916A4CE for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:22:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D95DC43D1D for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:22:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1BuYSa-000DBW-Er for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:22:44 +0100 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:22:44 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Paul Robinson Subject: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:22:30 -0000 Hi all, My hands/wrists are starting to give out. I'm spending 10+ hours a day at a screen having done so now for maybe 15 years, and no matter how many breaks I take, the ergonomic setup of my desk, whatever, I'm starting to feel the onset of RSI creeping in. So, I want to see what keyboards you guys are using. Is the painful switch to Dvorak worth it? Have you found a particularly decent keyboard that is incredibly comfortable? I'm currently seriously considering: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5113536463&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT but $300 is a lot to blow on a keyboard. Even if it does have an emacs mode. Anybody used these and reccomend them, or condemn them? Any thoughts/comments gratefully received before I get the credit card out. -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 15:36:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A8016A4CF for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:36:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (cpc2-cdif3-6-0-cust204.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.103.67.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D9B43D2D for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:36:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.41 (FreeBSD)) id 1BuYfR-000O5l-AE; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:36:01 +0100 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:36:01 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20040810153601.GL87690@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Paul Robinson , chat@freebsd.org, rasputnik@hellooperator.net References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Qtzb1h6tVL0ohdDu" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: rasputnik@hellooperator.net Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:36:07 -0000 --Qtzb1h6tVL0ohdDu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 04:22:44PM +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > My hands/wrists are starting to give out. I'm spending 10+ hours a day at= a > screen having done so now for maybe 15 years, and no matter how many brea= ks > I take, the ergonomic setup of my desk, whatever, I'm starting to feel the > onset of RSI creeping in. >=20 > So, I want to see what keyboards you guys are using. Is the painful switc= h=20 > to Dvorak worth it? Have you found a particularly decent keyboard that is= =20 > incredibly comfortable? >=20 > I'm currently seriously considering: >=20 > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=3D1&item=3D5113536463&= ssPageName=3DSTRK:MEWA:IT >=20 > but $300 is a lot to blow on a keyboard. Even if it does have an emacs mo= de.=20 > Anybody used these and reccomend them, or condemn them? My brother (cc'd) has one of these - they're not much more expensive new. He seemed happy but I'll let him answer for himself. Ceri --=20 It is not tinfoil, it is my new skin. I am a robot. --Qtzb1h6tVL0ohdDu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBGOthocfcwTS3JF8RAmwZAKCwrh/GCSyi1wQ86INULBrMHR6smQCfWGdm 8EF+ZX+uRv9jBMqGYyFsPt8= =OiuH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Qtzb1h6tVL0ohdDu-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 15:42:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4A0216A4CE for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:42:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.186]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C59543D54 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:42:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from frauke.lehmann@gmx.de) Received: from [212.227.126.160] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BuYlO-00026Y-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:42:10 +0200 Received: from [217.232.2.138] (helo=goliath.local) (TLSv1:EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BuYlO-0008Ll-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:42:10 +0200 From: Frauke Lehmann To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1092154871.1881.1228.camel@goliath.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:21:12 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:b116d098d330a002346ae9f70c429258 Subject: [OT] The adress of the questionnaire X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:42:11 -0000 Hello, sorry for disturbing again, but some of you pointed out to me that I forgot to include the address of the questionnaire in my last mail. Here it is: http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~egal/ Sorry again, Frauke From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 17:24:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2467016A4CE for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:24:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC8743D54 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:24:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 45DCC530D; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:23:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 1E899530C; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:23:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id DB4E3B872; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:23:51 +0200 (CEST) To: Paul Robinson References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:23:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> (Paul Robinson's message of "Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:22:44 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:24:01 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > My hands/wrists are starting to give out. I'm spending 10+ hours a day at= a > screen having done so now for maybe 15 years, and no matter how many brea= ks > I take, the ergonomic setup of my desk, whatever, I'm starting to feel the > onset of RSI creeping in. > > So, I want to see what keyboards you guys are using. Is the painful switc= h=20 > to Dvorak worth it? Have you found a particularly decent keyboard that is= =20 > incredibly comfortable? I've been plagued with RSI in the past, and in my experience, typing may aggravate it, but does not cause it. What does cause it in my case is: - heavy lifting - excessive mouse use - incorrectly adjusted chair / desk - incorrect keyboard placement (a tidy desk helps) Don't adjust your chair to your desk - adjust your chair so you're sitting comfortably, *then* adjust your desk. Avoid chairs with arm rests as they get in the way of your elbows and restrict chair mobility close to the desk. Get a wrist pad so you don't have to carry the weight of your arms while typing. Make sure the wrist pad and keyboard are the right height so you don't need to bend your wrists to type when they're resting on the pad. Make sure the desk is high enough to support your arms, but not so high it pushes your shoulders up. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 18:09:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0353016A4CF for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:09:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A781743D55 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:09:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from copper3 (ip168.gte250.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.250.168]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEFB28302A for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:08:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles Oppermann" To: Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:09:03 -0700 Organization: Copper Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcR+7fz8ywgA9JLAQaeUcqo81K4ggwAFx26g In-Reply-To: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-Id: <20040810180857.EEFB28302A@smtp2.pacifier.net> Subject: RE: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:09:01 -0000 When I started getting wrist RSI from typing, I switched to a Microsoft Natural keyboard - the angle of the two halves doesn't bend your wrist. More recently, I've been using a Kensington trackball - but I only get the ego benefit when the optional wrist support is attached. RSI is very serious and in many cases can directly affect your livelihood, so if you can, see a doctor right away for a diagnoses. ---Charles -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Paul Robinson Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 8:23 AM To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RSI-basher? Hi all, My hands/wrists are starting to give out. I'm spending 10+ hours a day at a screen having done so now for maybe 15 years, and no matter how many breaks I take, the ergonomic setup of my desk, whatever, I'm starting to feel the onset of RSI creeping in. So, I want to see what keyboards you guys are using. Is the painful switch to Dvorak worth it? Have you found a particularly decent keyboard that is incredibly comfortable? I'm currently seriously considering: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5113536463&ssPageN ame=STRK:MEWA:IT but $300 is a lot to blow on a keyboard. Even if it does have an emacs mode. Anybody used these and reccomend them, or condemn them? Any thoughts/comments gratefully received before I get the credit card out. -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 18:19:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2100A16A4CE for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:19:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4880843D54 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:19:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i7AIJVXL080343 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:19:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:12:53 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:19:36 -0000 At 7:23 PM +0200 2004-08-10, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > I've been plagued with RSI in the past, and in my experience, typing > may aggravate it, but does not cause it. What does cause it in my > case is: I've done some research on this issue, due to my own problems with RSI. My experience is that RSI is a very personal problem, and each person reacts differently to different situations. For me, the primary issue is excessive mousing, and other things don't have much of an impact. Using a touchpad on my laptop avoids most of the mousing issues. Keyboard-wise, I like the original Cherry keyboards. I've actually been able to find a couple of original Cherry QWERTY keyboards here in Belgium. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 18:31:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1963416A4CE for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:31:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D679343D58 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:31:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from xeon (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72FFE3D3E; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:31:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:31:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@xeon.unixathome.org To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040810143115.M94387@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:31:41 -0000 On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Paul Robinson wrote: > Hi all, > > My hands/wrists are starting to give out. I'm spending 10+ hours a day at a > screen having done so now for maybe 15 years, and no matter how many breaks > I take, the ergonomic setup of my desk, whatever, I'm starting to feel the > onset of RSI creeping in. > > So, I want to see what keyboards you guys are using. Is the painful switch > to Dvorak worth it? Have you found a particularly decent keyboard that is > incredibly comfortable? The MS Natural keyboard helped me. -- Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 18:39:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 201DD16A4CE for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:39:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEEFF43D31 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:39:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i7AIcorW081203; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:38:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040810180857.EEFB28302A@smtp2.pacifier.net> References: <20040810180857.EEFB28302A@smtp2.pacifier.net> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:38:45 +0200 To: "Charles Oppermann" From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:39:26 -0000 At 11:09 AM -0700 2004-08-10, Charles Oppermann wrote: > When I started getting wrist RSI from typing, I switched to a Microsoft > Natural keyboard - the angle of the two halves doesn't bend your wrist. > More recently, I've been using a Kensington trackball - but I only get the > ego benefit when the optional wrist support is attached. For most people who have problems with RSI wrist problems, straightening the wrists usually solves less than 10% of the problem, which means that the MNK doesn't do a whole lot. Rotating the wrists (to vertical or near-vertical) usually helps the most, such as in the Comfort Keyboard System (see ). > RSI is very serious and in many cases can directly affect your livelihood, > so if you can, see a doctor right away for a diagnoses. Definitely get a referral to see an RSI specialist, and you may also need to see a physiotherapist. You need to solve the immediate problem, as well as prevent relapses in the future. If you fail to take care of your RSI problems, you could be laid up for a period of years, and effectively unable to use a computer for anything. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 18:53:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE14616A4CE for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:53:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB0B943D5D for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:53:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from copper3 (ip168.gte250.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.250.168]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B9CB6B16F; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:53:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles Oppermann" To: "'Brad Knowles'" Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:53:09 -0700 Organization: Copper Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcR/CU7/xySCakWUSBiSWjPrbMhY9gAAcsYQ In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <20040810185304.2B9CB6B16F@smtp4.pacifier.net> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:53:06 -0000 >> For most people who have problems with RSI wrist problems, straightening the wrists usually solves less than 10% of the problem, which means that the MNK doesn't do a whole lot. Rotating the wrists (to vertical or near-vertical) usually helps the most, such as in the Comfort Keyboard System (see ). << Interesting. I must have been one of the 10%! Thanks for the additional detail. ---Charles -----Original Message----- From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad.knowles@skynet.be] Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 11:39 AM To: Charles Oppermann Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: RSI-basher? At 11:09 AM -0700 2004-08-10, Charles Oppermann wrote: > When I started getting wrist RSI from typing, I switched to a Microsoft > Natural keyboard - the angle of the two halves doesn't bend your wrist. > More recently, I've been using a Kensington trackball - but I only get the > ego benefit when the optional wrist support is attached. For most people who have problems with RSI wrist problems, straightening the wrists usually solves less than 10% of the problem, which means that the MNK doesn't do a whole lot. Rotating the wrists (to vertical or near-vertical) usually helps the most, such as in the Comfort Keyboard System (see ). > RSI is very serious and in many cases can directly affect your livelihood, > so if you can, see a doctor right away for a diagnoses. Definitely get a referral to see an RSI specialist, and you may also need to see a physiotherapist. You need to solve the immediate problem, as well as prevent relapses in the future. If you fail to take care of your RSI problems, you could be laid up for a period of years, and effectively unable to use a computer for anything. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 19:49:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E400216A4CE for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:49:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64DF243D54 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:49:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gh@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-150-242.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.150.242]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 782376EF04 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 7C42920F3D; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:49:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:49:15 -0500 From: "Daniel M. Kurry" Message-ID: <20040810194915.GJ8351@over-yonder.net> References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040810180857.EEFB28302A@smtp2.pacifier.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040810180857.EEFB28302A@smtp2.pacifier.net> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i-fullermd.2 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:49:19 -0000 Charles Oppermann said something like: > When I started getting wrist RSI from typing, I switched to a Microsoft > Natural keyboard - the angle of the two halves doesn't bend your wrist. > More recently, I've been using a Kensington trackball - but I only get the > ego benefit when the optional wrist support is attached. To no one in particular: The MS Natural helped me, too, but the 'board will not make it impossible for a typist to further the problem. In addition, though the MS Natural helps here, too, the risk of significant joint damage remains. A setup that keeps the wrists near-vertical is the Right Way(tm)---in my untrained, non-practicing medical opinion. I just wish I had tech to back this up. Key no-brainer tip: don't type with your forearms higher than they should be. If nothing else, lower positioning is less damaging than keeping them too high. Dan > ---Charles From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 20:04:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 091F816A4CF for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:04:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.bitfreak.org (mail.bitfreak.org [65.75.198.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90DEB43D48 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:04:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dmp@bitfreak.org) Received: from speck.techno.pagans (c-24-21-241-225.client.comcast.net [24.21.241.225]) by mail.bitfreak.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B24DF2A478; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spud (w0.techno.pagans [172.21.42.20]) by speck.techno.pagans (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0569217022; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:04:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Darren Pilgrim" To: "'Paul Robinson'" , Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:04:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01c47f15$3eb18a80$142a15ac@spud> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> Subject: RE: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:04:34 -0000 > From: Paul Robinson >=20 > My hands/wrists are starting to give out. I'm spending 10+=20 > hours a day at a > screen having done so now for maybe 15 years, and no matter=20 > how many breaks > I take, the ergonomic setup of my desk, whatever, I'm=20 > starting to feel the onset of RSI creeping in. I was diagnosed with "you almost need surgery." > So, I want to see what keyboards you guys are using. Is the=20 > painful switch to Dvorak worth it? I was never able to get to the same speed level with the Dvorak as I had with the QWERTY layout. The problem stemmed from my not being able to switch the layout on every keyboard I used, so I had divide my time between layouts and often used QWERTY movements on a Dvorak layout and vice versa. It was easier to just modify my reaches to reduce strain than gain proficiency at multiple layouts. If you spend your day at a keyboard you alone use, go for the Dvorak layout. People I've spoken to that have switched say they're faster typists and have less wrist strain as a result. If you're like me, where your typical week can put you in front of dozens of keyboards, none of which are yours, then switching to Dvorak will just slow you down. > Have you found a particularly decent keyboard that is incredibly > comfortable? Not yet. The ideal keyboard is going to be one that lets you keep your hands, wrists, and lower arms in a straight line, with the wrists at neutral pronation. Neutral pronation can be found by holding your arms out, elbow at 90 degrees, upper arms vertical, wrists straight with your fingers relaxed. Fully pronate and supinate your wrists, taking care not to rotate them farther than is comfortable. Neutral pronation is approximately half way between those extremes. > I'm currently seriously considering: >=20 > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=3D1&item=3D5113 > 536463&ssPageName=3DSTRK:MEWA:IT >=20 > but $300 is a lot to blow on a keyboard. Even if it does have=20 > an emacs mode.=20 > Anybody used these and reccomend them, or condemn them? I had problems with the lack of physical feedback on the keys. The resistance and sensation of the key depression and return of a standard keyboard turned out to be pretty important in getting the timing right for blazing-fast typing speeds. I also had concerns about durability. The surface reminded me of that used on touchpad mice. I tend to wear touchpads out pretty quickly and I didn't like the thought of having to fork over a few hundred bucks for a new keyboard each year. DES is 100% right about RSI being a product of a lot more than just your keyboard. Some recommendations that have worked well for me: - Get a mouse or a trackball that will cradle your whole hand and use a gel wrist pad. I have Logitech MX700 and MX500 mice with extra-thick gel wristpads. - Push your keyboard and mouse back onto your desk so you can rest your arms on the table. Mine are back from the edge almost the entire length of my forearm.=20 - Forget about formal touch-typing and aligning your hands or wrists to the keys. Your hands, wrists and lower arms should be in a straight line at an angle to the keyboard. It's your typing reaches and key layout that need to adjust to your hand positions, not the other way around. - Try out different keyboards and I don't mean just at the store. The configuration of your office space is going to change how well a given keyboard works. Expect to go through a half-dozen or more keyboards before you find something you like. - Get a desk with the right height. If you sit at the desk with your feet flat on the floor, knees at a right angle, then the desk height should be between around mid-thigh if you stand next to it. I'm 6'1" (1.85 m) and my desk surface is 28" (71 cm) off the floor. - Get a fully-adjustable, high-back chair with proper lumbar support. Sit close to your desk so you aren't sitting up, but resting fully against the chair. A high-back chair with an adjustable headrest will let you rest your neck as well. - Get an adjust able foot rest so you're not hanging the weight of your lower legs and feet off the edge of the chair. Your legs should be out in front of you to improve circulation. - Check out http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/. For a while I had a Neutral Posture 9800 with an Evolution chair-mount keyboard. Got rid of the keyboard, kept the chair. You just have to tell yourself that it's cheaper than surgery and physiotherapy. :) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 21:56:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B799516A4CE for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:56:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C29843D46 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:56:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-150-242.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.150.242]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BE56EF05; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:56:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 556EE20F3D; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:56:17 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:56:17 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Charles Oppermann Message-ID: <20040810215617.GF86032@over-yonder.net> References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040810180857.EEFB28302A@smtp2.pacifier.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040810180857.EEFB28302A@smtp2.pacifier.net> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i-fullermd.2 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:56:20 -0000 On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 11:09:03AM -0700 I heard the voice of Charles Oppermann, and lo! it spake thus: > > When I started getting wrist RSI from typing, I switched to a Microsoft > Natural keyboard - the angle of the two halves doesn't bend your wrist. FWIW, I *HATE* those split keyboards. They've always made my wrists hurt trying to use them, because I DO have to bend my wrists, whereas with a flat keyboard I don't. I use a nice simple flat keyboard, which works great. It's one of those wonderful IBMs that gives you real feel and resistance, which (counterintuitive as it may seem) is actually less effort to type on, since the rebound of the keys helps your finger return. The higher tension of the keys also lets me rest some of the weight of my hands on the keys without them actually depressing. It's also back on the table so my elbows are both resting on the table, which helps more; elbow to knuckle is virtually a straight line. My elbows are well outside my body-line, at such an angle that my fingers naturally sit on the home keys (think finger length and realize that if your arms go straight into a flat keyboard, you're going to have to scrunch 4 fingers really weird to get them to sit right, whereas the outside curve will sit them naturally. Really, I'd say the resting the elbows on the table is the biggest contributor to the comfort of the arrangement. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 10 22:04:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C4516A4CE for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:04:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccmmhc92.asp.att.net (sccmmhc92.asp.att.net [204.127.203.212]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 003FD43D41 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:04:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from josh@tcbug.org) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (12-218-40-24.client.mchsi.com[12.218.40.24]) by sccmmhc92.asp.att.net (sccmmhc92) with ESMTP id <20040810220432m92000jp3pe>; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:04:32 +0000 From: Josh Paetzel To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:04:06 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040810180857.EEFB28302A@smtp2.pacifier.net> <20040810215617.GF86032@over-yonder.net> In-Reply-To: <20040810215617.GF86032@over-yonder.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200408101704.06332.josh@tcbug.org> cc: Charles Oppermann Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:04:34 -0000 On Tuesday 10 August 2004 16:56, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 11:09:03AM -0700 I heard the voice of > > Charles Oppermann, and lo! it spake thus: > > When I started getting wrist RSI from typing, I switched to a > > Microsoft Natural keyboard - the angle of the two halves doesn't > > bend your wrist. > > FWIW, I *HATE* those split keyboards. They've always made my > wrists hurt trying to use them, because I DO have to bend my > wrists, whereas with a flat keyboard I don't. > > I use a nice simple flat keyboard, which works great. It's one of > those wonderful IBMs that gives you real feel and resistance, which > (counterintuitive as it may seem) is actually less effort to type > on, since the rebound of the keys helps your finger return. The > higher tension of the keys also lets me rest some of the weight of > my hands on the keys without them actually depressing. I'll put in my vote for the old 101 key IBM AT keyboard, complete with the clackity clack and 20 foot cord. :) -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 11 00:17:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C1516A4D0 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:17:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (cain.gsoft.com.au [203.31.81.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E80E543D49 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:17:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from inchoate.gsoft.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i7B0GuUr076125; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:47:00 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:46:56 +0930 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200408110946.56114.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -4.4 () CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,PGP_SIGNATURE,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.16 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: Paul Robinson Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:17:13 -0000 =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:52, Paul Robinson wrote: > My hands/wrists are starting to give out. I'm spending 10+ hours a day at= a > screen having done so now for maybe 15 years, and no matter how many brea= ks > I take, the ergonomic setup of my desk, whatever, I'm starting to feel the > onset of RSI creeping in. > > So, I want to see what keyboards you guys are using. Is the painful switch > to Dvorak worth it? Have you found a particularly decent keyboard that is > incredibly comfortable? It's possibly counterintuitive but I find laptop keyboards much less painfu= l=20 than 'normal' keyboards.. They have little key travel and are light to push which seems to be the pai= n=20 problem for me. I don't make my arms straight when typing - I just bend my= =20 fingers to different lengths. The pad of my hand rests on the laptop and my= =20 arm rests on the table. As someone else said... I suspect it's 90% personal as to what weird=20 combination works with your body :) =2D --=20 Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBGWV45ZPcIHs/zowRAr0RAJ4s1WoSLiSiYnUhW8beM5alTWrPMQCePpTi Y4zdjS1Ugnu5PXBP0hqM91U=3D =3D7h+d =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 11 00:22:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01DB716A4CE for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:22:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.cableone.net (scanmail1.cableone.net [24.116.0.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB29743D3F for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:22:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net (unverified [24.119.122.85]) by smail1.cableone.net (SurgeMail 1.9b) with ESMTP id 13442353 for multiple; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:12:02 -0700 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:22:16 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Paul Robinson Message-Id: <20040810192216.0f892b94@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> In-Reply-To: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.10) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:22:59 -0000 On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:22:44 +0100 Paul Robinson wrote: > Hi all, > > My hands/wrists are starting to give out. I'm spending 10+ hours a > day at a screen having done so now for maybe 15 years, and no matter > how many breaks I take, the ergonomic setup of my desk, whatever, > I'm starting to feel the onset of RSI creeping in. > > So, I want to see what keyboards you guys are using. Is the painful > switch to Dvorak worth it? Have you found a particularly decent > keyboard that is incredibly comfortable? > > I'm currently seriously considering: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5113536463&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT > > but $300 is a lot to blow on a keyboard. Even if it does have an > emacs mode. Anybody used these and reccomend them, or condemn them? > > Any thoughts/comments gratefully received before I get the credit > card out. I just use a cheap keyboard. My biggest suggestion is not to put the keyboard on your desk. Get a nice comfy chair and type with the keyboard in your lap. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 11 08:39:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD3A16A4CF for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:39:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gaff.hhhr.ision.net (gaff.hhhr.ision.net [195.180.9.213]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580E643D68 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:39:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ohoyer@ohoyer.de) Received: from gaff.hhhr.ision.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gaff.hhhr.ision.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i7B8dbBu007410; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:39:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ohoyer@ohoyer.de) Received: from localhost (ohoyer@localhost)i7B8dWVv007407; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:39:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ohoyer@ohoyer.de) X-Authentication-Warning: gaff.hhhr.ision.net: ohoyer owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:39:32 +0200 (CEST) From: Olaf Hoyer Sender: ohoyer@gaff.hhhr.ision.net To: "Daniel O'Connor" In-Reply-To: <200408110946.56114.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> Message-ID: <20040811103734.E7394@gaff.hhhr.ision.net> References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> <200408110946.56114.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:39:41 -0000 On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > It's possibly counterintuitive but I find laptop keyboards much less painful > than 'normal' keyboards.. > > They have little key travel and are light to push which seems to be the pain > problem for me. I don't make my arms straight when typing - I just bend my > fingers to different lengths. The pad of my hand rests on the laptop and my > arm rests on the table. > I have also taken a look at auravision keyboards, they are illuminated nicely with a soft background tone to reduce eyestrain in badly illuminated rooms, and also have a firm, short keyhub, just like high-quality notebook keyboards. Just my 0.02 EUR Olaf -- Olaf Hoyer ohoyer@gaff.hhhr.ision.net Fuerchterliche Erlebniss geben zu raten, ob der, welcher sie erlebt, nicht etwas Fuerchterliches ist. (Nietzsche, Jenseits von Gut und Boese) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 11 08:50:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6515E16A4D2 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:50:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 9.hellooperator.net (cpc3-cdif2-3-0-cust202.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.103.32.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D95B343D45 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:50:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rasputin@hellooperator.net) Received: from rasputin by 9.hellooperator.net with local (Exim 4.34) id 1BuooF-0005Ka-Ma; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:50:11 +0100 Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:50:11 +0100 From: Dick Davies To: Ceri Davies , Paul Robinson , chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040811085011.GA21373@lb.tenfour> References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040810153601.GL87690@submonkey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="82I3+IH0IqGh5yIs" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040810153601.GL87690@submonkey.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: Rasputin Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Dick Davies List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:50:27 -0000 --82I3+IH0IqGh5yIs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Ceri Davies [0806 00:06]: > On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 04:22:44PM +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > > Hi all, > >=20 > > My hands/wrists are starting to give out. I'm spending 10+ hours a day = at a > > screen having done so now for maybe 15 years, and no matter how many br= eaks > > I take, the ergonomic setup of my desk, whatever, I'm starting to feel = the > > onset of RSI creeping in. > >=20 > > So, I want to see what keyboards you guys are using. Is the painful swi= tch=20 > > to Dvorak worth it? Have you found a particularly decent keyboard that = is=20 > > incredibly comfortable? > >=20 > > I'm currently seriously considering: > >=20 > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=3D1&item=3D511353646= 3&ssPageName=3DSTRK:MEWA:IT > >=20 > > but $300 is a lot to blow on a keyboard. Even if it does have an emacs = mode.=20 > > Anybody used these and reccomend them, or condemn them? These are absolutely brilliant. I would be typing this with my nose if it w= eren't for mine, as it is I am still doing development work and sysadmin with only the odd i= buprofen to keep me healthy. Some of the best features are: * universal support - no drivers needed, every OS I've used it with (*BSD, = Linux, win*, mac os*) sees it as a USB hub with mouse and keyboard attached. * flash updates using a piece of Java - you also get a GUI then to configur= e all the perks * it will 'talk' to you if you press all the corners for 2 seconds by spitt= ing a (C commented) status string to stdout, then you press a key to change config so you don= 't even need to exit vi^W the other editor. * mousing (and arrow keys) on the keyboard stops all that pain when you rea= ch for the mouse * it can switch layouts - I think Dvorak, Qwerty and Qwerak are in the late= st ROM - *without* needing a layout update in the OS : so if you use Dvorak you set that in the keyb= oard and don't need to configure each OS - win2k in particular drives me potty since it has per-app keyboa= rd maps, I avoid all that with this. * zero force makes a big difference, the trick is remembering you don't nee= d to thump it, which I'm finally getting the hang of. * portable (comparing to hiring a secretary to type for you, although not q= uite as cute) * sturdy - I've used mine pretty much daily for about 3 years and it's stil= l good, once in a blue moon the connector needs a push in but thats no biggy. * it fits over most laptop keyboards so you can use it anywhere - there's a= macintouch version out soon=20 that replaces the standard iBook keyboard * LOTS of features - when I have a spare 45 mins I try to learn a couple mo= re, this months favourites are=20 crtl, alt,shift and capslocks without having to stretch your pinkies - in= general if any keypress is uncomfortable, learn the chord and thats that. The 'open bookmarks in= IE' stuff is ok, but it's the shift key and ctrl that you use every day... the only other feature I'd like is changable overlays - they do printable o= verlays, but paper wears out. I got the QWERTY version, then switched to Dvorak and it would have been ni= ce to see where an odd character is, but if you're learning to touch type on it its simpler to download the prin= table overlays and stick them on either side of the monitor. Hunching over a keyboard to type a script will make RSI much worse, and I'm= faster typing now than I ever was before the RSI kicks in. All in all they are really well made bits of kit, I agree they're a bit pri= cey but it's the best 300 dollars you'll ever spend if it means you can keep working. And the 'wow, nice keyb= oard'/'what the f_ck is that, it looks like a stealth fighter' geek points are a nice bonus... any specific questions feel free to mail me. Dick --=20 People will accept your ideas much more readily if you tell them that Benjamin Franklin said it first. Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns --82I3+IH0IqGh5yIs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (NetBSD) iD8DBQFBGd3DVFnamZKfe00RAtQEAJ9svdF5sWOxu0sFbJ2roiFA8jvCgQCdHm9f mxkz5yi1upFeDduKcKE43tI= =AGds -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --82I3+IH0IqGh5yIs-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 11 10:06:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E7AB16A4CE for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:06:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.191]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42DF943D58 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:06:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sw@gegenunendlich.de) Received: from [212.227.126.207] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Buq0C-0004mW-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:06:36 +0200 Received: from [80.142.217.123] (helo=kyuzo.dunkelkammer.void) (TLSv1:EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Buq0B-0000EU-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:06:36 +0200 Received: by kyuzo.dunkelkammer.void (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 81198404F; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:06:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:06:34 +0200 From: Stefan Walter To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040811100634.GA1759@kyuzo.dunkelkammer.void> References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040810192216.0f892b94@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040810192216.0f892b94@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> X-PGP-key: http://www.gegenunendlich.de/swalter-rsa.asc X-PGP-fp: 85D8 6A49 22C7 6CD9 B011 5D6A 5691 111B 12B9 E0B3 Organization: Infinity Approximation Task Force X-PGP-key: http://www.gegenunendlich.de/swalter-rsa.asc X-PGP-fingerprint: 85D8 6A49 22C7 6CD9 B011 5D6A 5691 111B 12B9 E0B3 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:bea306e5fe0930b42d4355ca01786db1 Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:06:38 -0000 Vulpes Velox in gmane.os.freebsd.chat: > I just use a cheap keyboard. Same here. > My biggest suggestion is not to put the keyboard on your desk. Get a > nice comfy chair and type with the keyboard in your lap. I do that, too. Having to reach for the mouse on the desk is extremely annoying, though, and the mouse seems to be the major cause of my occasional wrist problems, especially when browsing the web for a while. Does anyone have any experience with keyboards that have an integrated touchpad (like [1], though EUR 114 is already a bit expensive)? It's probably more comfortable, but maybe someone can recommend a model. Stefan [1]: http://www6.alternate.de/shop/infoNodes/productDetails.html?artNr=ntvc65 -- No reading beyond this point From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 11 10:13:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7586C16A4D0 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:13:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32E5A43D45 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:13:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from leafy7382@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 75so169573rnl for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 03:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.181.19 with SMTP id d19mr399524rnf; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 03:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:13:26 +0800 From: Jiawei Ye To: Stefan Walter In-Reply-To: <20040811100634.GA1759@kyuzo.dunkelkammer.void> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040811100634.GA1759@kyuzo.dunkelkammer.void> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:13:33 -0000 On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:06:34 +0200, Stefan Walter wrote: > [1]: http://www6.alternate.de/shop/infoNodes/productDetails.html?artNr=ntvc65 > -- > No reading beyond this point No sure if they sell this in Europe. http://www.sundin.com.tw/product.html?l1=3&l2=19&proid=UltraNavi-S I am quite lured into buying this keyboard by following this thread. Bad bad bad...:) Jiawei From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 11 10:43:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC51F16A4CE for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:43:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.alink.co.za (mail.alink.co.za [213.253.1.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 623E843D41 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:43:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from george@alink.co.za) Received: from mail.alink.co.za ([213.253.1.230] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by mail.alink.co.za with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BuqaA-0004aC-1W for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:43:46 +0100 Message-ID: <4119F861.1000101@alink.co.za> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:43:45 +0100 From: George Barnett User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Wireless kit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:43:52 -0000 Hi All, I have a 200mw senoa clone card (WL-0011MP+) which I bought from Solwise.co.uk which seems to be working rather well. It came with a 2db antenna which I'm looking to bump up a bit as I'm getting a poor signal from where I live to some nearby (i think) AP's. Mostly my laptop sits on a table near a window with the antenna living just outside on the ledge. At the moment, I have a 2db onmi with a magnetic base (came with the card), but I'm considering getting something a bit bigger to extend the range. I want to get one of these a NET-WL-ANT008OSC from them. http://www.solwise.co.uk/wireless-indoorantenna.htm http://www.solwise.co.uk/wireless-indoor-antenna-specs.htm#OMNIANT8DB I've read somewhere that these might not be RF grounded though and I need a large metal plate such as a car roof to make them work ok. This would obviously not work then as I'm going to have it sitting on a ledge. Does anybody have any experience with these? Help appreciated, George -- George Barnett Reality Engineer & Explorer e: george@alink.co.za m: +44 778 884 7205 Things must be as they may - William Shakespear, Henry V From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 11 12:20:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 905B216A4CE for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:20:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A6343D5A for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:19:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1Bus5S-000Lc6-Dw; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:20:10 +0100 Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:20:10 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Dick Davies Message-ID: <20040811122010.GS12472@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040810153601.GL87690@submonkey.net> <20040811085011.GA21373@lb.tenfour> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <20040811085011.GA21373@lb.tenfour> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Ceri Davies cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:20:00 -0000 On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 09:50:11AM +0100, Dick Davies wrote: > These are absolutely brilliant. I would be typing this with my nose if it= weren't for mine, > as it is I am still doing development work and sysadmin with only the odd= ibuprofen to keep > me healthy. Yeah, that's the thing. Last night I was in an absolutely foul mood, because I knew if this got any worse, in effect my career would be over. As I'm still only 26 (yes, I have been in front of a screen playing/admining/coding since I was 11 and I can't imagine being able to do anything else for a living), this is not something I really wanted to occur. On the mailing list there have been loads of good pieces of advice about=20 ergonomics, individual choices of keyboards and setups, and they're all=20 useful. I intend taking all that advice (even the weird one about the coppe= r=20 bracelet) simply because until neurological i/o implants are available, I= =20 don't have any choice. I also, having realised I can get work to pay for it and having read your= =20 comments, have decided I'm going to get one of these keyboards. Even if wor= k=20 refuse for some reason, I'm going to pony up for it out of my own pocket.= =20 Unless I find something even better. :-) =20 > * universal support - no drivers needed, every OS I've used it with (*BSD= , Linux, win*, mac os*) > sees it as a USB hub with mouse and keyboard attached. That's nice. Only thing I have to consider is those occasions when I'm=20 plugging into boxes without USB support. Hmmmm. > * flash updates using a piece of Java - you also get a GUI then to config= ure all the perks Java? I'm in BSD world! Getting Java to run on FreeBSD was so hard the last= =20 time I tried it, I've given up hope. Still, I'm sure I'll find a way. :-) > * it can switch layouts - I think Dvorak, Qwerty and Qwerak are in the la= test ROM - *without* needing > a layout update in the OS : so if you use Dvorak you set that in the ke= yboard and don't need to configure > each OS - win2k in particular drives me potty since it has per-app keyb= oard maps, I avoid all that with > this. Yeah, I'm thinking about making the jump to Dvorak, but I can type very=20 quickly with QWERTY and am not sure I want to go through the pain of=20 re-learning the layout. It seems a lot of hassle seeing as I only got=20 touch-typing down pat about 2-3 years ago. > * it fits over most laptop keyboards so you can use it anywhere - there's= a macintouch version out soon=20 > that replaces the standard iBook keyboard That's a must for me. If I go Dvorak, I need it to go over my thinkpad. I= =20 can't believe I'm considering replacing my thinkpad keyboard... > the only other feature I'd like is changable overlays - they do printable= overlays, but paper wears out. > I got the QWERTY version, then switched to Dvorak and it would have been = nice to see where an odd character is, > but if you're learning to touch type on it its simpler to download the pr= intable overlays and stick them > on either side of the monitor. That's the one thing that has put me off so far. If I go one route and then= =20 want to try or revert another route, it's $300 effectively down the drain.= =20 At the moment the $/GBP exchange rate is so good for me that this is not=20 actually prohibitively expensive - about 150 GBP - but down the road it=20 might be closer to 225 GBP as it has been in recent years. > All in all they are really well made bits of kit, I agree they're a bit p= ricey but it's the best 300 dollars > you'll ever spend if it means you can keep working. And the 'wow, nice ke= yboard'/'what the f_ck is that, it looks > like a stealth fighter' geek points are a nice bonus... True. I would have preferred them to come in Manchester City Blue rather=20 than Manchester United Red/Burgandy, but then that's probably me=20 over-thinking about the new Premiership season starting this weekend.... :-) =20 > any specific questions feel free to mail me. Cheers. I think you've covered everything. --=20 Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 11 12:36:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8B016A4CF for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:36:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D4043D1F for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:36:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from xeon (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3A93D3E; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:36:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@xeon.unixathome.org To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <20040811122010.GS12472@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040811083538.R17063@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040810153601.GL87690@submonkey.net> <20040811122010.GS12472@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Ceri Davies cc: Dick Davies Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:36:24 -0000 On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Paul Robinson wrote: > That's the one thing that has put me off so far. If I go one route and then > want to try or revert another route, it's $300 effectively down the drain. > At the moment the $/GBP exchange rate is so good for me that this is not > actually prohibitively expensive - about 150 GBP - but down the road it > might be closer to 225 GBP as it has been in recent years. Think long term.... Your career versus $300. -- Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 11 16:09:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1D8A16A4CE for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:09:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 9.hellooperator.net (cpc3-cdif2-3-0-cust202.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.103.32.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D7643D2F for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:09:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rasputin@hellooperator.net) Received: from rasputin by 9.hellooperator.net with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Buvfm-0006sQ-BU; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:09:54 +0100 Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:09:54 +0100 From: Dick Davies To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20040811160954.GB9117@lb.tenfour> References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040810153601.GL87690@submonkey.net> <20040811085011.GA21373@lb.tenfour> <20040811122010.GS12472@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040811122010.GS12472@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: Rasputin cc: Ceri cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Dick Davies List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:10:00 -0000 * Paul Robinson [0819 13:19]: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 09:50:11AM +0100, Dick Davies wrote: > > > These are absolutely brilliant. I would be typing this with my nose if it weren't for mine, > > as it is I am still doing development work and sysadmin with only the odd ibuprofen to keep > > me healthy. > > Yeah, that's the thing. Last night I was in an absolutely foul mood, because > I knew if this got any worse, in effect my career would be over. As I'm > still only 26 (yes, I have been in front of a screen playing/admining/coding > since I was 11 and I can't imagine being able to do anything else for a > living), this is not something I really wanted to occur. Try thinking of a job that doesn't involve hands. no, me neither. > On the mailing list there have been loads of good pieces of advice about > ergonomics, individual choices of keyboards and setups, and they're all > useful. I intend taking all that advice (even the weird one about the copper > bracelet) simply because until neurological i/o implants are available, I > don't have any choice. acupuncture works in about 25% of cases apparently. also, I'm going to give the Alexander technique a whirl - conquering Asia is a small price to pay to be able to play Deus Ex again. > I also, having realised I can get work to pay for it and having read your > comments, have decided I'm going to get one of these keyboards. Even if work > refuse for some reason, I'm going to pony up for it out of my own pocket. > Unless I find something even better. :-) Other than a cute typist, I think this is as good as it gets. If you're into bondage you could try: http://ratpoison.sourceforge.net/keyboards/009-edi/ > > * universal support - no drivers needed, every OS I've used it with (*BSD, Linux, win*, mac os*) > > sees it as a USB hub with mouse and keyboard attached. > > That's nice. Only thing I have to consider is those occasions when I'm > plugging into boxes without USB support. Hmmmm. > > > * flash updates using a piece of Java - you also get a GUI then to configure all the perks > > Java? I'm in BSD world! Getting Java to run on FreeBSD was so hard the last > time I tried it, I've given up hope. Still, I'm sure I'll find a way. :-) Like I said you can do it all as long as you have an editor for it to print into - a mozilla location bar works fine too. > > * it can switch layouts - I think Dvorak, Qwerty and Qwerak are in the latest ROM - *without* needing > > a layout update in the OS : so if you use Dvorak you set that in the keyboard and don't need to configure > > each OS - win2k in particular drives me potty since it has per-app keyboard maps, I avoid all that with > > this. > > Yeah, I'm thinking about making the jump to Dvorak, but I can type very > quickly with QWERTY and am not sure I want to go through the pain of > re-learning the layout. It seems a lot of hassle seeing as I only got > touch-typing down pat about 2-3 years ago. Fair enough, I couldn't touchtype anyway so Dvorak was as easy as learning qwerty. > > but if you're learning to touch type on it its simpler to download the printable overlays and stick them > > on either side of the monitor. > > That's the one thing that has put me off so far. If I go one route and then > want to try or revert another route, it's $300 effectively down the drain. > At the moment the $/GBP exchange rate is so good for me that this is not > actually prohibitively expensive - about 150 GBP - but down the road it > might be closer to 225 GBP as it has been in recent years. It looks like you'd get most of your money back through ebay anyway, and it doesn't matter what's on the board so long as you're touch typing really: http://ratpoison.sourceforge.net/keyboards/007-jcorneli/ -- When all other means of communication fail, try words. Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 11 17:42:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0C716A4CE for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:42:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.cableone.net (scanmail1.cableone.net [24.116.0.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C7443D3F for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:42:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vvelox@vvelox.net) Received: from vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net (unverified [24.119.122.85]) by smail1.cableone.net (SurgeMail 1.9b) with ESMTP id 13569683 for multiple; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:31:35 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:41:51 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Stefan Walter Message-Id: <20040811124151.35f67a4f@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> In-Reply-To: <20040811100634.GA1759@kyuzo.dunkelkammer.void> References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040810192216.0f892b94@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> <20040811100634.GA1759@kyuzo.dunkelkammer.void> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.10) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:42:31 -0000 On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:06:34 +0200 Stefan Walter wrote: > Vulpes Velox in gmane.os.freebsd.chat: > > > I just use a cheap keyboard. > > Same here. > > > My biggest suggestion is not to put the keyboard on your desk. > > Get a > > nice comfy chair and type with the keyboard in your lap. > > I do that, too. Having to reach for the mouse on the desk is > extremely annoying, though, and the mouse seems to be the major > cause of my occasional wrist problems, especially when browsing the > web for a while. I fixed that problem by putting the mouse on a something next to the chair :) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 13 11:03:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 994B816A4CE for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:03:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from parallax.alastria.net (parallax.alastria.net [81.7.140.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF91843D3F for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:03:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peter@alastria.net) Received: from [10.2.0.1] (shuttle.cw9.co.uk [82.152.14.18]) i7DB36Hs033012 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:03:06 GMT (envelope-from peter@alastria.net) Message-ID: <411C9FE9.3000905@alastria.net> Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:03:05 +0100 From: Peter Wood Organization: Alastria Networks User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Flag: NO X-Virus-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Spam-Ultra-Flag: NO X-Spam-Low-Flag: NO X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-High-Flag: NO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 Subject: FreeBSD pcm(4) latency (From write() to audible output) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:03:12 -0000 Good Morning, I'm currently in the middle of writing an automated radio playout system for a northern student radio station in the UK (post SBN liquidation). I have the requirement of it running on a *nix system. I'm a large BSD advocate between our friends, so would prefer not to use Linux. The system design consists of a daemon for each soundcard used in the studio. I'm currently in the process of writing this daemon. I've found that there is about a 800ms delay between the output data being written to /dev/dsp and being able to hear the output from the soundcard on FreeBSD. I'm working to a 200ms deadline. I'm opening the soundcard with: audio_fd = open((char *) device, O_WRONLY | O_FSYNC | O_DIRECT); I've used O_DIRECT and O_FSYNC to try and get rid of this delay, but alas that didn't work, device is cast as it's coming from a void * (thanks to pthread_create ;). The daemon outputs blocks of 0 when there is no actual audio to output so the sound card is always fed. While this isn't a problem for mpg123, it is for this application. I've tried to find where the delay is, however I haven't had any luck. Could anyone knowledgable let me know if there's any hope for getting rid of it (hacking the kernel is fine ;) or if I should "give up" and go to linux? I suppose Linux does have ALSA which claims 2.6ms latency but I was hoping to just use OSS. Oh well. For reference the test machine is a 2.2Ghz machine with a AC97 chip (yeah crap I know, studio playout machines will probably have a Creative card) running 4.10-STABLE (Yeasturday's cvsup). My appologies if this isn't the right place, I'm happy to go pester else where. Heh. Many thanks, Pete. -- Peter Wood BSc (Hons) :: :: Tel +44 7974 799440 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 13 15:05:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 761AD16A4CE for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:05:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (hak.cnd.mcgill.ca [132.216.11.133]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 070DD43D2F for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:05:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mat@hak.cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: from hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i7DFCVP3001790; Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:12:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mat@hak.cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: (from mat@localhost) by hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (8.12.9/8.12.8/Submit) id i7DFCU1X001789; Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:12:30 -0400 From: Mathew Kanner To: Peter Wood Message-ID: <20040813151230.GB280@cnd.mcgill.ca> References: <411C9FE9.3000905@alastria.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <411C9FE9.3000905@alastria.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: I speak for myself, operating in Montreal, CANADA X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.62 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.62 (2004-01-11) on hak.cnd.mcgill.ca cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD pcm(4) latency (From write() to audible output) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:05:45 -0000 On Aug 13, Peter Wood wrote: > I'm currently in the middle of writing an automated radio playout system > for a northern student radio station in the UK (post SBN liquidation). > > I have the requirement of it running on a *nix system. I'm a large BSD > advocate between our friends, so would prefer not to use Linux. > > The system design consists of a daemon for each soundcard used in the > studio. I'm currently in the process of writing this daemon. > > I've found that there is about a 800ms delay between the output data > being written to /dev/dsp and being able to hear the output from the > soundcard on FreeBSD. I'm working to a 200ms deadline. > > I'm opening the soundcard with: > > audio_fd = open((char *) device, O_WRONLY | O_FSYNC | O_DIRECT); > > I've used O_DIRECT and O_FSYNC to try and get rid of this delay, but > alas that didn't work, device is cast as it's coming from a void * > (thanks to pthread_create ;). > > The daemon outputs blocks of 0 when there is no actual audio to output > so the sound card is always fed. > > While this isn't a problem for mpg123, it is for this application. I've > tried to find where the delay is, however I haven't had any luck. > > Could anyone knowledgable let me know if there's any hope for getting > rid of it (hacking the kernel is fine ;) or if I should "give up" and go > to linux? > > I suppose Linux does have ALSA which claims 2.6ms latency but I was > hoping to just use OSS. Oh well. > > For reference the test machine is a 2.2Ghz machine with a AC97 chip > (yeah crap I know, studio playout machines will probably have a Creative > card) running 4.10-STABLE (Yeasturday's cvsup). > > My appologies if this isn't the right place, I'm happy to go pester else > where. Heh. Freebsd-multimedia would be the right place. I think what you want is a smaller block size. The SNDCTL_DSP_SETBLKSIZE should be the right IOCTL to use, check out the oss programmers manual, I don't have a link right now but google should find it pretty quick. --Mat -- Applicants must also have extensive knowledge of UNIX, although they should have sufficiently good programming taste to not consider this an achievement. - MIT AI Lab job ad in the /Boston Globe/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 13 15:42:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB21416A4CE for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:42:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from parallax.alastria.net (parallax.alastria.net [81.7.140.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2216043D1D for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:42:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peter@alastria.net) Received: from [10.2.0.1] (shuttle.cw9.co.uk [82.152.14.18]) i7DFg8Hs043437; Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:42:08 GMT (envelope-from peter@alastria.net) Message-ID: <411CE14F.3070509@alastria.net> Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:42:07 +0100 From: Peter Wood Organization: Alastria Networks User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mathew Kanner References: <411C9FE9.3000905@alastria.net> <20040813151230.GB280@cnd.mcgill.ca> In-Reply-To: <20040813151230.GB280@cnd.mcgill.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Flag: NO X-Virus-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Spam-Ultra-Flag: NO X-Spam-Low-Flag: NO X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-High-Flag: NO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD pcm(4) latency (From write() to audible output) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:42:16 -0000 > Freebsd-multimedia would be the right place. I think what you > want is a smaller block size. The SNDCTL_DSP_SETBLKSIZE should be the > right IOCTL to use, check out the oss programmers manual, I don't have > a link right now but google should find it pretty quick. Just to wrap this up here too: My problem was primarly due to the fragment sizes of buffers. I don't know what sizes are set as default but they're to big for my applications. I've found with the following it killed the delay to next to nothing (about 5ms by my working out). val = (2 << 16) | 9; ioctl(audio_fd, SNDCTL_DSP_SETFRAGMENT, &val); Thanks Mathew, Pete. -- Peter Wood BSc (Hons) :: :: Tel +44 7974 799440