From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 22 01:56:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5CF316A4CE for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:56:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ozlabs.org (ozlabs.org [203.10.76.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6685C43D2D for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:56:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (blackwater.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC332BDA1 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:56:00 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 400B451201; Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:25:58 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:25:58 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040822015558.GO92256@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <41248C2F.8020401@quadspeed.com> <417F9703-F1DC-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> <007001c485ec$9d3bbb10$3300a8c0@verizon.net> <9FDC1E28-F1E2-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> <20040819134840.GA3104@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NZtAI5QFBF0GmLcW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040819134840.GA3104@online.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Subject: Re: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:56:04 -0000 --NZtAI5QFBF0GmLcW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] On Thursday, 19 August 2004 at 9:48:40 -0400, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > David Kelly said on Aug 19, 2004 at 08:21:05: >> Providing an introduction to a forwarded message is about the only >> acceptable time to top-post, as I am doing right now. > > Two observations: > > 1. While top-posting is bad in the mailing list context, it is often > necessary in the corporate context. It took me a while to > appreciate this, but it's much easier for a secretary or a customer > support person to look through the bottom of an email for *all* > related correspondence than to dig through (possibly weeks-old or > months-old) email. You may have quoted what *you* think is > "relevant", but maybe you unknowingly omitted something important, > or maybe you didn't but the reader wants to be sure of that too. > If you quoted everything, you may as well top-post, rather than > force your reader to wade through pages of old stuff before getting > to your point. This is a marginally valid point. The trouble is that most people are only semi-literate when it comes to mail. They don't *understand* that it's a good idea to limit the size of the messages that people send. They usually also don't care, because it's so difficult with the tools at their disposal, and they don't believe that there are easier ways to do it. This leaves me with a problem at work: people send messages which are in arbitrary order, which have format breakage, and which include a lot of irrelevant text. It frequently takes me a long time just to understand what they're referring to. How do I reply? I have to reply, because it's part of my job, but should I descend to their level of illiteracy? I've made the decision that I should not. I reformat the messages before replying to them (thus the message [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] at the top of such replies and When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. =20 For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html at the bottom). This may take some time, but at least I can then understand what's going on (most of the time; some messages leave me mystified), and the result is legible. > Stemming from these, while top-posting is annoying for old-timers on > technical mailing lists, it's unfair to bash newcomers for it or to > write "Top posters will not be shown the honor of a reply" (many may > not even know what you mean by "top-posting"). That depends a lot on who you're talking to, of course. I certainly wouldn't do it to people at work, even if some of them should know better. But sometimes it's worth expressing the fact that people are more likely to get (voluntary) answers if they express themselves well; and that includes the presentation of their text. Greg -- Note: I discard all HTML mail unseen. Finger grog@FreeBSD.org for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --NZtAI5QFBF0GmLcW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBJ/0uIubykFB6QiMRAoWxAJ9GhevatQYG0/djNFbr3uaXGlYQ5QCeMInM uiN0k1gtx5QcMu+pPkWNk6U= =8/I0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NZtAI5QFBF0GmLcW-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 26 05:04:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2777116A4CE; Thu, 26 Aug 2004 05:04:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3BA943D5F; Thu, 26 Aug 2004 05:04:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bmah@freebsd.org) Received: from tomcat.kitchenlab.org (adsl-64-142-31-107.sonic.net [64.142.31.107]) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i7Q54bwR003015 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:04:37 -0700 Received: from tomcat.kitchenlab.org (localhost.kitchenlab.org [127.0.0.1]) by tomcat.kitchenlab.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id i7Q54b1A015982; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:04:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah@freebsd.org) Received: (from bmah@localhost) by tomcat.kitchenlab.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id i7Q54ajD015981; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:04:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah@freebsd.org) X-Authentication-Warning: tomcat.kitchenlab.org: bmah set sender to bmah@freebsd.org using -f From: "Bruce A. Mah" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-iN7Bp76SZZul4P7E4zAY" Message-Id: <1093496676.15613.13.camel@tomcat.kitchenlab.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:04:36 -0700 cc: "Bruce A. Mah" Subject: Any .hk users? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 05:04:38 -0000 --=-iN7Bp76SZZul4P7E4zAY Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone in .hk on this list? I have a few questions about options for residential broadband access in Hong Kong (Mongkok) but I figured of all the mailing lists I'm subscribed to, I'd find the most clue here. If you fit the profile and wouldn't mind answering a couple questions, please contact me off-list. Thanks! Bruce. --=-iN7Bp76SZZul4P7E4zAY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBBLW9k2MoxcVugUsMRAs/xAKCAXUfiDUQ+u017Mp0DQgHU/TFcFQCfZLAt WYzTjKcSS0e4CQFxwEAUaH4= =V/Tf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-iN7Bp76SZZul4P7E4zAY-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 27 11:40:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD5B16A4CE for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:40:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail2.imsc.res.in (mail2.imsc.res.in [203.199.209.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16A143D41 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:40:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from banyan.imsc.ernet.in ([202.41.95.76]) by mail2.imsc.res.in with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1C0fH8-00039N-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:22:10 +0530 Received: from bluerondo (dhcp25.imsc.res.in [172.16.12.50] (may be forged)) i7RBeZIG008809 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:10:36 +0530 Received: (qmail 2503 invoked by uid 1002); 27 Aug 2004 11:40:39 -0000 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:10:38 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Message-ID: <20040827114038.GA2453@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <41248C2F.8020401@quadspeed.com> <417F9703-F1DC-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> <007001c485ec$9d3bbb10$3300a8c0@verizon.net> <9FDC1E28-F1E2-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> <20040819134840.GA3104@online.fr> <20040822015558.GO92256@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040822015558.GO92256@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Operating-System: DragonFly 1.1-CURRENT i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:40:41 -0000 Replying late because I've been moving. Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on Aug 22, 2004 at 11:25:58: > [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] > > On Thursday, 19 August 2004 at 9:48:40 -0400, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > David Kelly said on Aug 19, 2004 at 08:21:05: > >> Providing an introduction to a forwarded message is about the only > >> acceptable time to top-post, as I am doing right now. > > > > Two observations: > > > > 1. While top-posting is bad in the mailing list context, it is often > > necessary in the corporate context. It took me a while to > > appreciate this, but it's much easier for a secretary or a customer > > support person to look through the bottom of an email for *all* > > related correspondence than to dig through (possibly weeks-old or > > months-old) email. You may have quoted what *you* think is > > "relevant", but maybe you unknowingly omitted something important, > > or maybe you didn't but the reader wants to be sure of that too. > > If you quoted everything, you may as well top-post, rather than > > force your reader to wade through pages of old stuff before getting > > to your point. > > This is a marginally valid point. The trouble is that most people are > only semi-literate when it comes to mail. They don't *understand* > that it's a good idea to limit the size of the messages that people > send. They usually also don't care, because it's so difficult with > the tools at their disposal, and they don't believe that there are > easier ways to do it. > > This leaves me with a problem at work: people send messages which are > in arbitrary order, which have format breakage, and which include a > lot of irrelevant text. It frequently takes me a long time just to > understand what they're referring to. How do I reply? I have to > reply, because it's part of my job, but should I descend to their > level of illiteracy? > > I've made the decision that I should not. I reformat the messages > before replying to them (thus the message > > [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] > > at the top of such replies and First comment: you included this message at the top of this mail, but the only difference in format I see between your message and mine is the quoting ">" marks. Why your "format recovered" message? Have you considered that some people, who don't see an obvious formatting problem with their mail, may consider this message offensive? (I don't, because I've corresponded with you before, but I can see that people might, and FreeBSD already has a sufficient reputation for offensive members.) Or, if there was indeed some subtle formatting problem in my message that you've corrected, shouldn't you be polite enough to tell me what it is? Your webpage certainly doesn't. > When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the > original text. > For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html > > at the bottom). This may take some time, but at least I can then > understand what's going on (most of the time; some messages leave me > mystified), and the result is legible. I get plenty of messages that are top-posted continuously all the way for 10 generations. I see no problem in following the context. I can even appreciate that, if the quoted messages are a few weeks or months old, (a) it is better to quote them fully rather than partially or not at all, (b) it is better to quote them at the bottom and say what you want to say on the top. I agree this does not apply to FreeBSD lists, but most people may not realise that unless it's (politely) explained to them. Anyway, top-posting isn't unheard-of in FreeBSDland either: I've seen JKH and Scott Long do it, among others. > better. But sometimes it's worth expressing the fact that people are > more likely to get (voluntary) answers if they express themselves > well; and that includes the presentation of their text. That can be explained politely, rather than saying "Top-posters won't be honoured with a reply". Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 27 12:56:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830AB16A4CE; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:56:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 166E543D31; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:56:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i7RCuk0Y036081; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:56:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@127.0.0.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040827114038.GA2453@online.fr> References: <41248C2F.8020401@quadspeed.com> <417F9703-F1DC-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> <007001c485ec$9d3bbb10$3300a8c0@verizon.net> <9FDC1E28-F1E2-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> <20040819134840.GA3104@online.fr> <20040822015558.GO92256@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20040827114038.GA2453@online.fr> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:53:49 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:56:58 -0000 At 5:10 PM +0530 2004-08-27, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] >> >> at the top of such replies and > > First comment: you included this message at the top of this mail, but > the only difference in format I see between your message and mine is > the quoting ">" marks. Why your "format recovered" message? Lines re-wrapped, I should think. Or, if he's responding to e-mail that was formatted in HTML, then it's probably the first ASCII conversion/line-wrapping job that has been done to them. > Have you > considered that some people, who don't see an obvious formatting > problem with their mail, may consider this message offensive? Then they need to read that page. That's why the comment is there. > Or, if there was indeed some subtle formatting > problem in my message that you've corrected, shouldn't you be polite > enough to tell me what it is? Your webpage certainly doesn't. There's a whole host of things that might be wrong. Indeed, there's literally an infinite number of things that might be wrong. Instead of trying to enumerate all the possible ways in which your message might be inappropriately formatted, it's easier/better to tell people what proper formatting is. Indeed, it really is the *only* feasible thing to do in such circumstances. > I get plenty of messages that are top-posted continuously all the way > for 10 generations. I see no problem in following the context. You may not. But most people do. I've been doing e-mail for going on twenty-five years, and I have problems following this sort of crap. I can't imagine that anyone less experienced would have an easier time of it. > I agree this does not apply to FreeBSD lists, but most people may not > realise that unless it's (politely) explained to them. Anyway, > top-posting isn't unheard-of in FreeBSDland either: I've seen JKH and > Scott Long do it, among others. Greg does explain this politely. See the above web page. > That can be explained politely, rather than saying "Top-posters won't > be honoured with a reply". See above. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 27 13:01:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D9816A4E1 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:01:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (73.Red-213-97-200.pooles.rima-tde.net [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2444C43D45 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:01:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org) Received: from scienide (scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org [192.168.100.1]) by mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E264A34FEE; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:01:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:00:47 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-Id: <20040827150047.41f3498b.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20040827114038.GA2453@online.fr> References: <41248C2F.8020401@quadspeed.com> <417F9703-F1DC-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> <007001c485ec$9d3bbb10$3300a8c0@verizon.net> <9FDC1E28-F1E2-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> <20040819134840.GA3104@online.fr> <20040822015558.GO92256@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20040827114038.GA2453@online.fr> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.12-gtk2-20040622 (GTK+ 2.4.9; i386-portbld-freebsd5.2.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="Signature=_Fri__27_Aug_2004_15_00_47_+0200_S8xJE4GV88vOrw66" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:01:44 -0000 --Signature=_Fri__27_Aug_2004_15_00_47_+0200_S8xJE4GV88vOrw66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:10:38 +0530 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: Hi, > > This is a marginally valid point. The trouble is that most people > > are only semi-literate when it comes to mail. They don't > > *understand* that it's a good idea to limit the size of the messages > > that people send. They usually also don't care, because it's so > > difficult with the tools at their disposal, and they don't believe > > that there are easier ways to do it. Just because most people don't want to bother learning netiquette doesn't make it less annoying. You know, when in Rome... It's the same with unpatched Windows boxes. Joe Sixpack doesn't care if his Windows box is ridden with spyware and viruses but, in the end, is the rest of us who pay for his carelessness when his PC acts as open relay for spammers and whatnot. > > I've made the decision that I should not. I reformat the messages > > before replying to them (thus the message > > > > [Format recovered--see > > http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] > > > > at the top of such replies and I'm 100% with Greg here. Nobody's expected to be an expert in everything, but some people simply don't want to learn. > I get plenty of messages that are top-posted continuously all the way > for 10 generations. I see no problem in following the context. I can That's fine. I personally find it annoying to get a copy of what I've written with every e-mail. And it gets worse as the conversation goes on, with messages getting 150-200KiB big. > > better. But sometimes it's worth expressing the fact that people > > are more likely to get (voluntary) answers if they express > > themselves well; and that includes the presentation of their text. > > That can be explained politely, rather than saying "Top-posters won't > be honoured with a reply". That only works the first 50-100 times you find yourself in such situation. You'll eventually burn out. It has happened to me recently. A friend of mine, who recently majored in CS, replied to me top posting 3 or 4 times before it pissed me off enough to send her to a "learn to quote" text. She's a CS major, she's tech savvy. If she felt offended, so be it. It's basic stuff she should be aware of. Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez http://www.energyhq.es.eu.org PGP Key: 0xDC8514F1 Note: All HTML and non-english mail goes to /dev/null --Signature=_Fri__27_Aug_2004_15_00_47_+0200_S8xJE4GV88vOrw66 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBLzCBnLctrNyFFPERAumsAJ4waR4VWglNVBajJK687XQU2rADVACeM6sF ZObBg5N8NUXnk/kT/zRQZQY= =A62d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Fri__27_Aug_2004_15_00_47_+0200_S8xJE4GV88vOrw66-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 27 21:47:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19AAA16A4CE for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:47:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rsmba.biz (c66-235-37-251.sea2.cablespeed.com [66.235.37.251]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 65AFF43D53 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:47:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rschi@rsmba.biz) Received: (qmail 453 invoked from network); 27 Aug 2004 21:49:23 -0000 Received: from localhost.dmz.rsmba.biz (HELO rsmba.biz) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.dmz.rsmba.biz with SMTP; 27 Aug 2004 21:49:23 -0000 Message-ID: <412FAC3A.2010405@rsmba.biz> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:48:42 -0700 From: Richard Schilling Organization: Richard Schilling, MBA User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040412 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org References: <411ECE69.4010004@daleco.biz> In-Reply-To: <411ECE69.4010004@daleco.biz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Part of the Galaxy is missing! (MSFT, etc) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:47:09 -0000 O.K. I forget, much to my embarrasment. What does S(rip+ |<|ddi3z translate to? THanks Richard Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > A curious factoid: > > It's Saturday evening in the USA. No connections available to > microsoft.com, hp.com, sun.com. Not that I rue that greatly, > since freebsd.org is back up, but I do service some Winboxen > from time to time, and Sun did create Java ... > > What have the evil S(rip+ |<|ddi3z been up to this time? > > Anyone noticed this yet, or heard anything about it? > > Kevin Kinsey > DaleCo, S.P. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 27 21:53:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96CDA16A4CE for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:53:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F18D43D54 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:53:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:56:41 -0500 Message-ID: <412FAD40.2010108@daleco.biz> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:53:04 -0500 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040712 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Schilling References: <411ECE69.4010004@daleco.biz> <412FAC3A.2010405@rsmba.biz> In-Reply-To: <412FAC3A.2010405@rsmba.biz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2004 21:56:42.0008 (UTC) FILETIME=[BC8A0180:01C48C80] cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Part of the Galaxy is missing! (MSFT, etc) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:53:06 -0000 Richard Schilling wrote: > O.K. I forget, much to my embarrasment. What does > > S(rip+ |<|ddi3z > > translate to? > > THanks > > Richard > Hmm, methinks I meant "script kiddies". My mind may have been trapped in an alternate universe at that time, however. YMMV. Some other folks asked me what I was smoking, anyway :-D KDK > Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > >> A curious factoid: >> >> It's Saturday evening in the USA. No connections available to >> microsoft.com, hp.com, sun.com. Not that I rue that greatly, >> since freebsd.org is back up, but I do service some Winboxen >> from time to time, and Sun did create Java ... >> >> What have the evil S(rip+ |<|ddi3z been up to this time? >> >> Anyone noticed this yet, or heard anything about it? >> >> Kevin Kinsey >> DaleCo, S.P. > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 27 22:37:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52F5316A4CE for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:37:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ozlabs.org (ozlabs.org [203.10.76.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4D9B43D31 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:37:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (blackwater.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA602BD46 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:37:12 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 50F11511FE; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:07:10 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:07:10 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040827223710.GJ9754@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <41248C2F.8020401@quadspeed.com> <417F9703-F1DC-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> <007001c485ec$9d3bbb10$3300a8c0@verizon.net> <9FDC1E28-F1E2-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> <20040819134840.GA3104@online.fr> <20040822015558.GO92256@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20040827114038.GA2453@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="D6qFbTulLGAVHLqN" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040827114038.GA2453@online.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Subject: Re: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:37:18 -0000 --D6qFbTulLGAVHLqN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Friday, 27 August 2004 at 17:10:38 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Replying late because I've been moving. > > Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on Aug 22, 2004 at 11:25:58: >> [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] >> >> On Thursday, 19 August 2004 at 9:48:40 -0400, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >>> David Kelly said on Aug 19, 2004 at 08:21:05: >> I've made the decision that I should not. I reformat the messages >> before replying to them (thus the message >> >> [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] >> >> at the top of such replies and > > First comment: you included this message at the top of this mail, but > the only difference in format I see between your message and mine is > the quoting ">" marks. Why your "format recovered" message? Finger trouble, probably. I probably put it there to be able to copy it above, then forgot it. > Have you considered that some people, who don't see an obvious > formatting problem with their mail, may consider this message > offensive? Yes. Given the alternatives, I decided I would have to live with it. I find badly formatted messages offensive, and I tell people so, but they don't stop sending them because of that. > (I don't, because I've corresponded with you before, but I can see > that people might, and FreeBSD already has a sufficient reputation > for offensive members.) Or, if there was indeed some subtle > formatting problem in my message that you've corrected, shouldn't > you be polite enough to tell me what it is? Yes, I normally do. That's why I suspect it was an error on my part this time. >> When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the >> original text. >> For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html >> >> at the bottom). This may take some time, but at least I can then >> understand what's going on (most of the time; some messages leave me >> mystified), and the result is legible. > > I get plenty of messages that are top-posted continuously all the way > for 10 generations. I see no problem in following the context. Except that I refuse to send an incorrectly sequenced message. > I can even appreciate that, if the quoted messages are a few weeks > or months old, (a) it is better to quote them fully rather than > partially or not at all, Not necessarily. It depends on the context. > (b) it is better to quote them at the bottom and say what you want > to say on the top. That's seldom a good option. > I agree this does not apply to FreeBSD lists, but most people may > not realise that unless it's (politely) explained to them. Anyway, > top-posting isn't unheard-of in FreeBSDland either: I've seen JKH > and Scott Long do it, among others. Yes. I think they should know better. >> better. But sometimes it's worth expressing the fact that people are >> more likely to get (voluntary) answers if they express themselves >> well; and that includes the presentation of their text. > > That can be explained politely, rather than saying "Top-posters won't > be honoured with a reply". Agreed. That wasn't my statement. I try to avoid the terms "top posting" and "bottom posting", because they're misleading. Greg -- Note: I discard all HTML mail unseen. Finger grog@FreeBSD.org for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --D6qFbTulLGAVHLqN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBL7eWIubykFB6QiMRAo0KAKCX/em6XIi2pYKQ5hqEgk5CmvQaYQCfWoIT y6Q8hpyj6h0r1pYn8r1unhk= =WJLT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --D6qFbTulLGAVHLqN-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 27 23:33:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DF0A16A56F for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:33:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from chen.org.nz (chen.org.nz [210.54.19.51]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB28843D48 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:33:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jonc@chen.org.nz) Received: by chen.org.nz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 36820136A1; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:33:21 +1200 (NZST) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:33:21 +1200 From: Jonathan Chen To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040827233321.GA40204@grimoire.chen.org.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Subject: Earthlink Abuse Bounces X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:33:24 -0000 Anyone notice that any email abuse reports to abuse@earthlink.net will immediately bounce back with a message that basically says that: "It's not from us, don't bother us". -- Jonathan Chen Once is dumb luck. Twice is coincidence. Three times and Somebody Is Trying To Tell You Something. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 28 00:18:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9A216A4CE for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 00:18:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFCC943D45 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 00:18:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:22:13 -0500 Message-ID: <412FCF53.90703@daleco.biz> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:18:27 -0500 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040712 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Chen References: <20040827233321.GA40204@grimoire.chen.org.nz> In-Reply-To: <20040827233321.GA40204@grimoire.chen.org.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2004 00:22:14.0102 (UTC) FILETIME=[1145CF60:01C48C95] cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Earthlink Abuse Bounces X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 00:18:39 -0000 Jonathan Chen wrote: >Anyone notice that any email abuse reports to abuse@earthlink.net will >immediately bounce back with a message that basically says that: > > "It's not from us, don't bother us" > > No; but it's hardly surprising. Perhaps you should set your subject line to "Acquisition Proposal", sign your mail "Steve Balmer*, MSFT**" and route it though mailb.microsoft.com ... I guess the real question is, "does anybody care about the end-user" these days ... and the answer probably is, "yes --- the billing department". Kevin Kinsey *any resemblance to real persons or entities that have more "l"'s in their name is somewhat purely accidental ... **"Must Shackle Free Trade" or something like that, so I've heard... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 28 04:35:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB4816A4CE for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 04:35:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A1343D1F for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 04:35:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from syncman@optusnet.com.au) Received: from webmail07.syd.optusnet.com.au (webmail07.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.133.88])i7S4Zqak006280 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:35:52 +1000 Message-Id: <200408280435.i7S4Zqak006280@mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.411 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [211.30.253.10] as user syncman@optusnet.com.au by webmail.optusnet.com.au with HTTP; From: Andrew Sinclair To: FreeBSD Chat Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:35:52 +1000 Subject: Re: Part of the Galaxy is missing! (MSFT, etc) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 04:35:54 -0000 > Hmm, methinks I meant "script kiddies". My mind > may have been trapped in an alternate universe > at that time, however. YMMV. > > Some other folks asked me what I was smoking, > anyway :-D > > KDK I had a wierd dream about that outage. It happened the night after I read the original message of this thread. It was the next day and someone had posted a message on the freebsd-chat mailing list, stating that there was a story about the outage. Anyway, I click on the link and read further. It turns out that the MPAA and RIAA jointly requested it in preparation for a raid on the houses of suspected music and movie file traders. The author of BitTorrent, "Bram Cohen," was also arrested and later released on bail. He made some sort of a statement at a press conference on how this raid was illegal and a dissappointment to the software industry and all. For some reason, president George W. Bush was present at that conference. Wierd. - Regards Andrew Sinclair From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 28 09:03:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A3B16A4CE for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:03:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kane.otenet.gr (kane.otenet.gr [195.170.0.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E70543D58 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:03:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b208.otenet.gr [212.205.244.216]) i7S92pW7003500; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:02:53 +0300 Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id i7S91PPS079804; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:01:25 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id i7S91PEm079803; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:01:25 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:01:25 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Message-ID: <20040828090124.GA79727@gothmog.gr> References: <20040827233321.GA40204@grimoire.chen.org.nz> <412FCF53.90703@daleco.biz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <412FCF53.90703@daleco.biz> Phone: +30-2610-312145 Mobile: +30-6944-116520 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Earthlink Abuse Bounces X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:03:05 -0000 On 2004-08-27 19:18, "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." wrote: > > I guess the real question is, "does anybody care about the > end-user" these days ... and the answer probably is, "yes --- > the billing department". HEH :) I was thinking of adding "the marketting department" too, but then I saw you wrote "care" and changed my mind. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 28 17:19:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CC0816A4CE for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 17:19:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dastardly.newsbastards.org.72.27.172.IN-addr.ARPA.NOSPAM.dyndns.dk (80-219-172-255.dclient.hispeed.ch [80.219.172.255]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 825B543D72 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 17:19:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bounce@NOSPAM.dyndns.dk) Received: from Mail.NOSPAM.DynDNS.dK (ipv6.NOSPAM.dyndns.dk [2002:50db:acff:0:220:afff:fed4:dbcb]) (8.11.6/8.11.6-SPAMMERS-DeLiGHt) with ESMTP id i7SHJUL01030 verified NO) for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 19:19:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from bounce@NOSPAM.dyndns.dk) Received: (from beer@localhost) by Mail.NOSPAM.DynDNS.dK (8.11.6/FNORD) id i7SHJU501029; Sat, 28 Aug 2004 19:19:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from bounce@NOSPAM.dyndns.dk) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 19:19:30 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200408281719.i7SHJU501029@Mail.NOSPAM.DynDNS.dK> X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.newsbastards.org.72.27.172.IN-addr.A: beer set sender to bounce@NOSPAM.dyndns.dk using -f X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.newsbastards.org.72.27.172.IN-addr.A: Processed from queue /tmp X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.newsbastards.org.72.27.172.IN-addr.A: Processed by beer with -C /etc/mail/sendmail.cf-LOCAL From: Barry Bouwsma To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: the upcoming Swiss Unix Whatever Conference X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 17:19:35 -0000 Yo, sup. Is there anyone out there whose name I might recognize who intends to be at the upcoming conference 02-04.Sep in Zuerich, Schweiz? While I myself cannot afford to attend said event, I happen to be within a few hours bicycle ride, and I'd be happy to meet anyone in person who would be in the area. I can even be convinced to bring you beer from Germany with me (in addition to my own copious supply). Limited to what I'm able to carry on my bike at a time, however. At present, I have part of a crate of Hacker (-Pschorr) beer in the area. Hacker beer, geddit? I'm not able to be regularly online yet, but if you're quick, a reply to the above address (minus *only* the hostname part if you have no IPv6 connectivity or if the above IPv6 host is not reachable for you) may work and keep this list free of clutter; alternatively, you can try barry vax.chrillesen.dk which should work. Or if this list is an appropriate forum for all to arrange some meeting place, have at it. Easiest for me to meet would be Zuerich Nord somewhere; alternatively I highly recommend a 40km drive into Germany, where there are a number of places in Waldshut-Tiengen part Tiengen where one can meet, eat, and drink well and not spend a lot. I'd love to be able to put a few faces to the names I see, and have an excuse to drink beer for a good cause. For a change. Hacker beer too. thanks, beery bouwsma