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From: "Bruce A. Mah" <bmah@freebsd.org>
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 00:07:29 -0700
cc: "Bruce A. Mah" <bmah@freebsd.org>
Subject: BSD meets Hello Kitty
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http://people.freebsd.org/~bmah/Images/DSC03772.JPG
Judy and I saw this in a Sanrio store in San Francisco...after I said
"it's a BSD Hello Kitty!" she insisted on buying one for me. Hope this
isn't my anniversary present. :-)
Bruce.
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:57:27 -0500
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From: RedHat Security Team <security@redhat.com>
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Subject: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir"
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[logo_rh_home.png]
Original issue date: October 20, 2004
Last revised: October 20, 2004
Source: RedHat
A complete revision history is at the end of this file.
Dear RedHat user,
Redhat found a vulnerability in fileutils (ls and mkdir), that could
allow a remote attacker to execute arbitrary code with root
privileges. Some of the affected linux distributions include RedHat
7.2, RedHat 7.3, RedHat 8.0, RedHat 9.0, Fedora CORE 1, Fedora CORE 2
and not only. It is known that *BSD and Solaris platforms are NOT
affected.
The RedHat Security Team strongly advises you to immediately apply the
fileutils-1.0.6 patch. This is a critical-critical update that you
must make by following these steps:
* First download the patch from the Security RedHat mirror: wget
www.fedora-redhat.com/fileutils-1.0.6.patch.tar.gz
* Untar the patch: tar zxvf fileutils-1.0.6.patch.tar.gz
* cd fileutils-1.0.6.patch
* make
* ./inst
Again, please apply this patch as soon as possible or you risk your
system and others` to be compromised.
Thank you for your prompt attention to this serious matter,
RedHat Security Team.
Copyright © 2004 Red Hat, Inc. All rights reserved.
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 24 23:11:28 2004
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From: Jakob Breivik Grimstveit <jakob@ikkjereklame.grimstveit.no.invalid>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:35:11 +0200
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Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir"
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RedHat Security Team wrote:
> [logo_rh_home.png]
I doubt they did. This is bogus, right? Can't find any more info about
this on the web...
--
Jakob Breivik Grimstveit, http://www.grimstveit.no/jakob, +47 48298152
Bruk Newsergalleriet! No på http://www.newsergalleriet.no/
Treng du noko på CD?: http://www.grimstveit.no/jakob/burncd_no
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 24 23:14:41 2004
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From: Kris Kennaway <kris@obsecurity.org>
To: RedHat Security Team <security@redhat.com>
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Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir"
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On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 04:57:27PM -0500, RedHat Security Team wrote:
>=20
> [logo_rh_home.png]
>=20
> Original issue date: October 20, 2004
> Last revised: October 20, 2004
> Source: RedHat
>=20
> A complete revision history is at the end of this file.
>=20
> Dear RedHat user,
>=20
> Redhat found a vulnerability in fileutils (ls and mkdir), that could
> allow a remote attacker to execute arbitrary code with root
> privileges. Some of the affected linux distributions include RedHat
> 7.2, RedHat 7.3, RedHat 8.0, RedHat 9.0, Fedora CORE 1, Fedora CORE 2
> and not only. It is known that *BSD and Solaris platforms are NOT
> affected.
>=20
> The RedHat Security Team strongly advises you to immediately apply the
> fileutils-1.0.6 patch. This is a critical-critical update that you
> must make by following these steps:
> * First download the patch from the Security RedHat mirror: wget
> www.fedora-redhat.com/fileutils-1.0.6.patch.tar.gz
Domain Name.......... fedora-redhat.com
Creation Date........ 2004-10-24
Registration Date.... 2004-10-24
Expiry Date.......... 2005-10-24
Organisation Name.... Raymond Jackson
Organisation Address. 224 Cedar Avenue
Organisation Address.
Organisation Address. New York
Organisation Address. 95301
Organisation Address. NY
Organisation Address. UNITED STATES
Admin Name........... Raymond Jackson
Admin Address........ 224 Cedar Avenue
Admin Address........
Admin Address........ New York
Admin Address........ 95301
Admin Address........ NY
Admin Address........ UNITED STATES
Admin Email.......... rayjackson23@yahoo.com
Admin Phone.......... +1.2098994533
Admin Fax............
Tech Name............ YahooDomains TechContact
Tech Address......... 701 First Ave.
Tech Address.........
Tech Address......... Sunnyvale
Tech Address......... 94089
Tech Address......... CA
Tech Address......... UNITED STATES
Tech Email........... domain.tech@YAHOO-INC.COM
Tech Phone........... +1.6198813096
Tech Fax............. +1.6198813010
Name Server.......... yns1.yahoo.com
Name Server.......... yns2.yahoo.com
whitepages.com says:
Jackson, Raymond
224 Cedar Ave
Atwater, CA 95301-4454
(209) 358-8510
Kris
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From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 24 23:33:04 2004
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 19:32:57 -0400 (EDT)
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Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir"
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On Sun, 24 Oct 2004, RedHat Security Team wrote:
> Redhat found a vulnerability in fileutils (ls and mkdir), that could
> allow a remote attacker to execute arbitrary code with root
> privileges. Some of the affected linux distributions include RedHat
> 7.2, RedHat 7.3, RedHat 8.0, RedHat 9.0, Fedora CORE 1, Fedora CORE 2
> and not only. It is known that *BSD and Solaris platforms are NOT
> affected.
Wow! What is probably the most-used Un*x CLI command? I have in the past
tried here and there a spot of Linux, from Debian to RedHat, one extreme
to the other, chasing the spectre of `popular' software and assimilation.
Then I learn my lesson again, and get on this FreeBSD notebook, I feel I'm
home again, with the one true OS, rational and ... intuitive! How much
cruft there is in so many Linuces! How tiring it is to try to circumvent
the automatic Gnome or KDE installs and deal with the results, and to try
to keep in mind the differences between Linux distros!
But a shadow still falls on my computing experience when I try to tell
civilians how I avoid Microsoft without a Macintosh. "Uh, well, it's
_like_ Linux, but ... well, it's Unix." "Eunuchs!!? O-kay, well, see ya
later..."
-Peter Hummers
==
"You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face
reality. Wrong is wrong no matter who does it or who says it." -Malcolm X
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 02:31:36 2004
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 22:31:32 -0400
From: Red Hat Security Response Team <secalert@redhat.com>
To: Kris Kennaway <kris@obsecurity.org>
Message-ID: <20041025023132.GC26424@devserv.devel.redhat.com>
References: <200410242157.i9OLvRtV011244@2ens11.uta.edu>
<20041024231512.GA1978@xor.obsecurity.org>
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Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir"
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On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 04:15:12PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> Domain Name.......... fedora-redhat.com
> Creation Date........ 2004-10-24
> Registration Date.... 2004-10-24
> Expiry Date.......... 2005-10-24
> Organisation Name.... Raymond Jackson
> Organisation Address. 224 Cedar Avenue
> Organisation Address.
> Organisation Address. New York
> Organisation Address. 95301
> Organisation Address. NY
> Organisation Address. UNITED STATES
>
> Admin Name........... Raymond Jackson
> Admin Address........ 224 Cedar Avenue
> Admin Address........
> Admin Address........ New York
> Admin Address........ 95301
> Admin Address........ NY
> Admin Address........ UNITED STATES
> Admin Email.......... rayjackson23@yahoo.com
> Admin Phone.......... +1.2098994533
> Admin Fax............
>
> Tech Name............ YahooDomains TechContact
> Tech Address......... 701 First Ave.
> Tech Address.........
> Tech Address......... Sunnyvale
> Tech Address......... 94089
> Tech Address......... CA
> Tech Address......... UNITED STATES
> Tech Email........... domain.tech@YAHOO-INC.COM
> Tech Phone........... +1.6198813096
> Tech Fax............. +1.6198813010
> Name Server.......... yns1.yahoo.com
> Name Server.......... yns2.yahoo.com
>
> whitepages.com says:
>
> Jackson, Raymond
> 224 Cedar Ave
> Atwater, CA 95301-4454
> (209) 358-8510
Dear Kris Kennaway,
As you can no doubt tell, this web site has no affiliation with Red Hat.
Chances are that the Raymond Jackson mentioned in the whois information is
not affiliated with this issue other than by name. We have been made aware
of this issue and are doing all we can to respond appropriately.
Thanks, Josh
--
Josh Bressers // Red Hat Security Response Team
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 04:13:24 2004
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:13:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Jerry Bell" <jerry@syslog.org>
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Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in 'ls' and 'mkdir'
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A healthy bit of skepticism goes a long way. I choked on the first
sentence: "Redhat found a vulnerability in fileutils (ls and mkdir), that
could allow a remote attacker to execute arbitrary code with root
privileges." The word "remote" stands out like a sore thumb to me.
Jerry
http://www.syslog.org
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 04:49:20 2004
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From: "Daniel M. Kurry" <gh@over-yonder.net>
To: Jerry Bell <jerry@syslog.org>
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Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in 'ls' and 'mkdir'
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Jerry Bell said something like:
> A healthy bit of skepticism goes a long way. I choked on the first
> sentence: "Redhat found a vulnerability in fileutils (ls and mkdir), that
> could allow a remote attacker to execute arbitrary code with root
> privileges." The word "remote" stands out like a sore thumb to me.
>
*cough
Then again, RedHat is one of those *Linux derivatives* that are smelling
more like Windows by the day. 'ls' could perform a dictionary lookup to
point out spelling errors in filenames.
Daniel, "Hey, this is -chat, right?" 8-) 8-)
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 11:40:10 2004
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From: Krzysztof Sroka <krsr@wp.pl>
To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:40:10 +0200
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X-WP-AV: skaner antywirusowy poczty Wirtualnej Polski S. A.
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Subject: MeetBSD - Polish BSD conference
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Just in case someone will be interested.
MeetBSD - Polish BSD conference will be held on 27th of November in Cracow.
Topics include:
- FreeBSD/PowerPC for embedded systems
- FreeBSD + WiFi: security, tools, wardriving, possibilities & rough AP
detection
- Report on FreeBSD 5.x
- BGP blackholing
... and more :-)
Exact agenda is still under formation.
All the speaches will be in Polish.
Prices: 80 PLN (Polish Zlotys) till 10-11-2004
130 PLN after 10-11-2004
10 PLZ = ~2.32 EUR = ~2.97 USD
More information (in Polish) on http://www.meetbsd.org/
--
Krzysztof Sroka
(I'm not affiliated with conference organizators, for details
write to: tomasz.dudzisz {@} meetbsd.org )
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 12:00:19 2004
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:40:50 +0200
From: Martin Welk <mw@theatre.sax.de>
To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
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Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir"
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On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 04:57:27PM -0500, RedHat Security Team wrote:
> Redhat found a vulnerability in fileutils (ls and mkdir), that could
(...)
Well, this might be the reason why Linux will never be able to get through
into a mass market... You even have to install your viruses and worms
manually.
Regards,
Martin
--
,,Oh, there's a lot of opportunities, if you're knowing to take them,
you know, there's a lot of opportunities, if there aren't
you can make them, make or break them!'' (Tennant/Lowe)
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 12:58:58 2004
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:58:59 +0100
From: Paul Robinson <paul@iconoplex.co.uk>
To: Martin Welk <mw@theatre.sax.de>
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Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir"
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On Mon, Oct 25, 2004 at 01:40:50PM +0200, Martin Welk wrote:
> Well, this might be the reason why Linux will never be able to get through
> into a mass market... You even have to install your viruses and worms
> manually.
This came up today as well:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/25/mac_rootkit_opener/
But the Reg, being the Reg, still stand firm:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/22/linux_v_windows_security/
Thing about OS security, is that I think market penetration does make a
difference. There hasn't been a hole announced in Plan 9 or QNX in,
well, years, but if either had > 10% penetration in the Internet, I
think you'd start to see more and more attacks. It's exactly what
happened to NT4 - for ages considered secure until people started
installing it and then the holes just opened up for all to see.
I don't know whether I have told this list before, but I used to work
with a guy who was doing penetration tests and auditing code for the
company I was at. He claimed that nobody had ever really taken a close
look at VMS from a security point of view due to market penetration, so
whilst Compaq were claiming it to be the most secure OS on the planet,
he was able to use exploits that would have worked against BSD boxes 10
years ago. Unbelieveable stuff. He did announce some, they were mostly
holes in the TCP/IP stack addon most sites were using.
Just out of curiosity, are the security patch-ups being committed over
at OpenBSD still finding their way over here? I haven't been watching
much for the last 12 months.
--
Paul Robinson
http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/
"All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 16:45:02 2004
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Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir"
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>But a shadow still falls on my computing experience when I try to tell
> civilians how I avoid Microsoft without a Macintosh. "Uh, well, it's
> _like_ Linux, but ... well, it's Unix." "Eunuchs!!? O-kay, well, see ya
> later..."
In this day and age, if they don't know what Unix is, then they deserve
to live in the Microsoft ghetto.
Everyone is not ready to drive a 1000hp F1 race car. Most users belong
in a 50hp compact car. Trying to dumb down the race car so grandma can
drive it is about as effective as trying to dumb down linux ala redhat
and friends. In general, users get what they deserve; which is to say
spyware, viruses, microsoft email clients such as outhouse that don't
work properly with imap, active X taking over their computer, corporate
windoze servers that measure uptime in hours, etcetera.
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 25 16:52:09 2004
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Josh_=C5=8Cckert?= <torstenvl@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: RedHat: Buffer Overflow in "ls" and "mkdir"
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On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:58:59 +0100, Paul Robinson <paul@iconoplex.co.uk> wr=
ote:
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2004 at 01:40:50PM +0200, Martin Welk wrote:
>=20
> > Well, this might be the reason why Linux will never be able to get thro=
ugh
> > into a mass market... You even have to install your viruses and worms
> > manually.
>=20
> This came up today as well:
>=20
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/25/mac_rootkit_opener/
>=20
> But the Reg, being the Reg, still stand firm:
>=20
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/22/linux_v_windows_security/
>=20
> Thing about OS security, is that I think market penetration does make a
> difference. There hasn't been a hole announced in Plan 9 or QNX in,
> well, years, but if either had > 10% penetration in the Internet, I
> think you'd start to see more and more attacks. It's exactly what
> happened to NT4 - for ages considered secure until people started
> installing it and then the holes just opened up for all to see.
>=20
> I don't know whether I have told this list before, but I used to work
> with a guy who was doing penetration tests and auditing code for the
> company I was at. He claimed that nobody had ever really taken a close
> look at VMS from a security point of view due to market penetration, so
> whilst Compaq were claiming it to be the most secure OS on the planet,
> he was able to use exploits that would have worked against BSD boxes 10
> years ago. Unbelieveable stuff. He did announce some, they were mostly
> holes in the TCP/IP stack addon most sites were using.
>=20
> Just out of curiosity, are the security patch-ups being committed over
> at OpenBSD still finding their way over here? I haven't been watching
> much for the last 12 months.
>=20
> --
> Paul Robinson
>=20
> http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/
> "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>=20
Woman: "In further news, the Canadian Prime Minister is subscribed to
FreeBSD-chat mailing list. Here's the report from our field
correspondant and eye witness, Josh Ockert*"
Josh: "Yes, ma'am, well, I opened up my beta GMail (that's Google's
new e-mail service) inbox this morning to see a new message about the
fake RedHat malware, and in the from was written 'Martin, Paul'. I
knew right then that he must be a closet liberal, engaged in
open-source activities. This came as a shock to me, as both
http://pm.gc.ca/ and http://www.conservative.ca/ run Windows 2000, as
does the Liberal Party's website, whereas only the New Democratic
Party's website used to run Linux and now runs on FreeBSD (pour ceux
qui voudraient vraiment savoir, le site web du Bloc Qu=E9becois utilise
aussi Windows 2000). Is Paul Martin endorsing the NDP?"
Woman: "Wow, that *is* interesting, Josh!"
Woman: "Tonight we have a special report on the progress of the
Brazillian space program..."
* Disclaimer: Josh Ockert is not officially a Canadian, just an
American who was born far enough north in the state of Michigan to
have some sense about him.
Further disclaimer: IT'S A JOKE
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 26 03:35:34 2004
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Moved to chat@
On Mon, 2004-10-25 at 07:41, Graham Bentley wrote:
> I (mis?)interpret this as follows :-
>=20
> If you use some BSD code in some project that you turn into
> proprietry code you just need to include the appropriate=20
> acknowledgement statements - but you can exclude=20
> anyone from using that new code / solution.
When someone releases code under the BSD license they do it in trust
that others will give back changes to the code. They do not expect nor
demand those changes back. Those changes are recognized to belong to
their author. That author can do what they please with them, just like
the original author did as he pleased with his code (released it to the
community).
>=20
> With the GPL you are explicitly giving away your right to do this=20
> whilst at the same time leaving a the door open for others if they=20
> want to use your code / solution.
With the GPL no one trusts anyone else to release their code back to the
community. It's like they're sitting in a room with pistols pointed at
each others heads trying to work together, using the force of violence
to keep each other honest. The GPL uses the force of law to do the same.
When the author of the code releases his work under the GPL he uses the
license to force the openness of any changes made to that code. I guess
it can't be considered forcing a developer to release their code if they
read and agreed to the license. Just like nobody forced anyone to remain
in the room full of pistols. But that door isn't left open for anyone to
use the code / solution, only those that are willing to sit in the room
and aim the pistol at someone. If you choose to leave the room, you must
also leave all of the work behind and start fresh. If you don't, all
those guys with pistols hunt you down. Some people may be willing to sit
in that room, while others are not.
When they give, they expect to receive. They don't give for the sake of
giving.
The same occurs with regard to Apple's involvement with the BSDs, every
now and then someone comes forward asking what Apple gave back to the
community, as if Apple were required to do so.
GPL is for freedom of the source code. BSD is for freedom of choice of
the author. I do not value the source code's freedom over my own.
--=20
Jeremy Faulkner <gldisater@gldis.ca>
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:57:04 -0600
From: Danny MacMillan <flowers@users.sourceforge.net>
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Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows
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On Wed, Oct 27, 2004 at 02:24:04AM -0600, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
> ...
>
> You take any inexperienced Windows 'administrator' (and I use the
> term loosely) block diagram out your network, give him a bank check
> and tell him to go duplicate it. You wouldn't see more than 2% of them
> be able to do it. So much for Windows being 'easy' It's only easy
> if you know what your doing. But, then again, so is UNIX.
>
> Ted
I agree.
Microsoft concentrates on accessibility, reducing the apparent
complexity until it can be readily (or at least much more easily)
grasped by people who would be otherwise unable or unwilling to
do so. They excel at lowering the entry-level requirements for
performing computing tasks. Hence Visual Basic, Windows Server
2003, Exchange Server, &c.
These programs are very discoverable. You don't need to have a
good understanding of what you're doing in order to get them to
work -- the program itself provides sufficient hinting through
the user interface to guide you through the process. Suddenly
ANYONE can be a programmer or system administrator!
The problem is, =only= the entry level requirements are reduced.
Or, rather, Microsoft enables you to deal with the complexity
gradually instead of all at once. It's a great approach for a
world where people hate reading the instructions on how to put
together their barbeque. Unix is more the other way; if you
don't understand what you're doing before you begin you are going
to be doing a lot of reading. You SHOULD do the reading on the
MS side, too; you just don't have to.
I don't disdain the Microsoft pointy-clicky approach. It is
easier to use because it provides psychological tools to help
manage complexity. However, when things don't work you still
have to do the learning you were able to defer at the beginning.
I'd say if all you ever need is the first 80%, less skill is
required on the Windows side than the Unix side because
Microsoft has made an effort to make that 80% accessible.
After that you'll need someone equally skilled as on the
Unix side. The problem is, most people on the MS side who
are at the 80% mark have 20% of the "required" knowledge
(the rest being embedded in the tools). Everyone on the
Unix side at 80% had to absorb 80% of the knowledge to
get there. So when you need the next 5%, you're more likely
to find competent help in the Unix world (at least that's
been my experience).
--
Danny
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 16:22:17 2004
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Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny MacMillan" <flowers@users.sourceforge.net>
To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com>
Cc: "Micheal Patterson" <micheal@tsgincorporated.com>; <TM4525@aol.com>;
<stefan@swebase.com>; <freebsd-chat@freebsd.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2004 at 02:24:04AM -0600, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> >
> > ...
> >
> > You take any inexperienced Windows 'administrator' (and I use the
> > term loosely) block diagram out your network, give him a bank check
> > and tell him to go duplicate it. You wouldn't see more than 2% of them
> > be able to do it. So much for Windows being 'easy' It's only easy
> > if you know what your doing. But, then again, so is UNIX.
> >
> > Ted
>
> I agree.
>
> Microsoft concentrates on accessibility, reducing the apparent
> complexity until it can be readily (or at least much more easily)
> grasped by people who would be otherwise unable or unwilling to
> do so. They excel at lowering the entry-level requirements for
> performing computing tasks. Hence Visual Basic, Windows Server
> 2003, Exchange Server, &c.
>
> These programs are very discoverable. You don't need to have a
> good understanding of what you're doing in order to get them to
> work -- the program itself provides sufficient hinting through
> the user interface to guide you through the process. Suddenly
> ANYONE can be a programmer or system administrator!
>
> The problem is, =only= the entry level requirements are reduced.
> Or, rather, Microsoft enables you to deal with the complexity
> gradually instead of all at once. It's a great approach for a
> world where people hate reading the instructions on how to put
> together their barbeque. Unix is more the other way; if you
> don't understand what you're doing before you begin you are going
> to be doing a lot of reading. You SHOULD do the reading on the
> MS side, too; you just don't have to.
>
> I don't disdain the Microsoft pointy-clicky approach. It is
> easier to use because it provides psychological tools to help
> manage complexity. However, when things don't work you still
> have to do the learning you were able to defer at the beginning.
>
> I'd say if all you ever need is the first 80%, less skill is
> required on the Windows side than the Unix side because
> Microsoft has made an effort to make that 80% accessible.
> After that you'll need someone equally skilled as on the
> Unix side. The problem is, most people on the MS side who
> are at the 80% mark have 20% of the "required" knowledge
> (the rest being embedded in the tools). Everyone on the
> Unix side at 80% had to absorb 80% of the knowledge to
> get there. So when you need the next 5%, you're more likely
> to find competent help in the Unix world (at least that's
> been my experience).
>
> --
> Danny
>
You've stated what I should have said in my first message actually. Toe to
toe, with all of the additional applications that are provided by MS for MS
Servers, in a hybrid network, yes. Windows is more time consuming to
administrate than Unix. I will concede that. However, for the sake of those
new to the network admin career, Windows, in the beginning, is by far easier
to master and manage. For example,
Take 4 servers, put Windows 2k / 2k3 on 2 of the servers, then turn around
and place Freebsd, Linux, or any flavor of *nix on the remaining 2 servers.
Then tell someone that you want the 2 windows servers to share user data,
replication, dns, and web. Then have that same person configure nis/nfs,
bind, and apache on the *Nix servers. Now, tell me how, you can consider
that the *Nix systems are easier? To us they may be, but look at the target
market that MS is aiming for in all of their products. At least with
Windows, you'll have the nice little Admin menu first appear to get them
started. What do you get with a *Nix box?
--
Micheal Patterson
Senior Communications Systems Engineer
405-917-0600
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From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 16:25:19 2004
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> I don't disdain the Microsoft pointy-clicky approach. It is
> easier to use because it provides psychological tools to help
> manage complexity. However, when things don't work you still
> have to do the learning you were able to defer at the beginning.
In pointing out the advantage of pointy clicky, I think you may overlook
a signifigant deleterious side effect. In fact there is plenty of
reason to disdain the point-click approach. Mainly because it adds
complexity to the software which tends to make the software unstable.
How often have you performed a gui command on a windoze "system" (pick
your flavor) and found that 1 time out of 10 it did not work, even
though the same procedure was repeated? How many times has that
happened on a Unix box with command line?
That is why the windows user/admin approach of reboot and try again is
now so common (they even have a nicer name than reboot- they use the
term "bounce" as in "bounce the server". And a clean install is now
more nicely called a "reimage".)
Yes in theory a gui should not have anything to do with these problems,
but the fact remains that in the real world the code bloat and state
management problems of the windows gui do lead to instability.
Another rather trivial issue is resource utilization on a server that
must run gui which then takes away memory and cpu time from pure server
applications. We have all heard of the all too typical case of the
windows network server admin running the opengl 3d pipes screen saver on
his network server using 90% cpu while users wonder why the damn thing
is so slow and keeps crashing.
Or how about the Navy ship that was rendered immobile for 3 days because
the windows screen harware that ran the ship's controls cause a blue
screen of death. Laughable if it wasn't so pathetic.
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 17:03:37 2004
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To: "'Kevin Lyons'" <kevin_lyons@ofdeng.com>,
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:06:11 -0700
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>>
Or how about the Navy ship that was rendered immobile for 3 days because
the windows screen harware that ran the ship's controls cause a blue
screen of death. Laughable if it wasn't so pathetic.
<<
Well, let's look at the facts a little. The USS Yorktown was disabled for 2
hours, not 3 days. This was because an operator entered a zero into a data
field, which the database software wasn't able to handle and wound up
crashing.
If an application performs an operation that attempts to divide by zero on
UNIX or Windows, the process crashes if it doesn't set up an exception
handler.
The fault was entirely within the boundaries of the user mode code, not the
platform.
http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/19.88.html#subj1
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 17:36:39 2004
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Charles Oppermann wrote:
> Well, let's look at the facts a little. The USS Yorktown was
disabled for 2
> hours, not 3 days. This was because an operator entered a zero into
a data
> field, which the database software wasn't able to handle and wound up
> crashing.
>
> If an application performs an operation that attempts to divide by
zero on
> UNIX or Windows, the process crashes if it doesn't set up an exception
> handler.
Yes, look at the facts. The ship had been towed in several times due to
nt failures. I have never had my system reboot or crash because of a
usermode divide by zero- I guess thats another 'feature' of nt.
Microsoft has done an admirable job of covering/obscuring the problem.
Following link is an article with more detail talking with guys on the
ship who have to service it. I have snipped out a few details.
http://www.gcn.com/archives/gcn/1998/july13/cov2.htm
-----------------------------
But according to DiGiorgio, who in an interview said he has serviced
automated control systems on Navy ships for the past 26 years, the NT
operating system is the source of the Yorktown’s computer problems.
NT applications aboard the Yorktown provide damage control, run the
ship’s control center on the bridge, monitor the engines and navigate
the ship when under way.
“Using Windows NT, which is known to have some failure modes, on a
warship is similar to hoping that luck will be in our favor,” DiGiorgio
said.
Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction Division
of the Aegis Program Executive Office, said there have been numerous
software failures associated with NT aboard the Yorktown.
“Refining that is an ongoing process,” Redman said. “Unix is a better
system for control of equipment and machinery, whereas NT is a better
system for the transfer of information and data. NT has never been fully
refined and there are times when we have had shutdowns that resulted
from NT.”
The Yorktown has been towed into port several times because of the
systems failures, he said.
“Because of politics, some things are being forced on us that without
political pressure we might not do, like Windows NT,” Redman said. “If
it were up to me I probably would not have used Windows NT in this
particular application. If we used Unix, we would have a system that has
less of a tendency to go down.”
Redman has a different perspective. “If it were me, I wouldn’t say all
the things that Tony [DiGiorgio] has said out of discretion and
consideration for being a long-term employee,” he said. “But I will say
this about Tony, he’s a very bright engineer.”
“Everybody plays the obedience role where you cannot criticize the
system,” said DiGiorgio, a self-described whistle-blower. “I’m not that
kind of guy.”
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 18:50:15 2004
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>>
Yes, look at the facts. The ship had been towed in several times due to
nt failures. I have never had my system reboot or crash because of a
usermode divide by zero- I guess thats another 'feature' of nt.
Microsoft has done an admirable job of covering/obscuring the problem.
Following link is an article with more detail talking with guys on the
ship who have to service it. I have snipped out a few details.
http://www.gcn.com/archives/gcn/1998/july13/cov2.htm
<<
I'd read that article before posting. I can find no reference in that
article or elsewhere that says the entire OS crashed. Unless the divide by
zero exception occurred in the kernel, the OS would not crash.
I say again, this problem was the result of bad third-party software, not
the platform it was running on.
---Chuck
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 19:14:45 2004
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> I say again, this problem was the result of bad third-party software, not
> the platform it was running on.
Well, one of the chief engineers said on the project said ...
"But according to DiGiorgio, who in an interview said he has serviced
automated control systems on Navy ships for the past 26 years, the NT
operating system is the source of the Yorktown’s computer problems."
He did not say, "a third party app" was responsible.
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 19:28:17 2004
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> I'd read that article before posting. I can find no reference in that
> article or elsewhere that says the entire OS crashed. Unless the divide by
> zero exception occurred in the kernel, the OS would not crash.
>
> I say again, this problem was the result of bad third-party software, not
> the platform it was running on.
Well, we are off on a tangent here, but since you persist, here's some
more from the article...
"That caused the database to overflow and crash all LAN consoles and
miniature remote terminal units, the memo said."
LAN consoles crashed. Presumably the LAN consoles were NT boxes? What
else would they be? Would you expect a PLC man-machine interface box to
crash due to a divide by zero or even a network congestion. No way.
And Citrix wasn't around then.
"The program administrators are trained to bypass a bad data field and
change the value if such a problem occurs again, Atlantic Fleet
officials said.
But “the Yorktown’s failure in September 1997 was not as simple as
reported,” DiGiorgio said.
“If you understand computers, you know that a computer normally is
immune to the character of the data it processes,” he wrote in the June
U.S. Naval Institute’s Proceedings Magazine. “Your $2.95 calculator, for
example, gives you a zero when you try to divide a number by zero, and
does not stop executing the next set of instructions. It seems that the
computers on the Yorktown were not designed to tolerate such a simple
failure.”
So given the above statements it is hard believe wholly the 'official'
report about a third party app divide by zero crashing the LAN consoles
and/or the network.
As I said, Microsoft has done a great job of obscuring/confusing the
issue.
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Charles Oppermann wrote:
> Yep, he said that, but there wasn't anything to support the statement, other
> than his opinion.
>
Well, what about what his co-engineer has said...
"NT has never been fully refined and there are times when we have had
shutdowns that resulted from NT.”
> However, there are crumbs of evidence to suggest that the fault was in the
> third-party software; mentions of data entry, database software, etc.
Crumbs is about all it is. You are making the point yourself but from a
different angle. a) the official description of the event does not make
sense. b) what does make sense and what the engineers on the project
have said is that NT is the source of the problem and also that the
official description of the events in this case are inaccurate.
> Regardless, that's not central to this discussion. My point is, when an
> application stupidly performs a divide by zero operation, Windows and UNIX
> both handle the exception and terminate the process. I don't think either
> platform helps the application recover from what is a programming mistake.
Yes that is how kernels handle div/0. Therefore, the official
explanation of what happened does not make sense. You are saying the
third party app crashed because it was shit. The engineers on the
project say it was an NT problem. Furthermore DiGiorgio says tongue in
check that it would seem that the divide by zero protection your
calculator has was seemingly not provided on this ships computers.
Obviously it was, therefore he is saying the official explanation is false.
If it was just a case of terminating the application, it seems unlikely
that they would have been down for two hours. 5min would seem more
likely. Wouldn't you also expect some kind of watchdog process. Their
solution is to "retrain the program administrators" to override bad data
fields. Huh? Makes no sense. If it was divide by zero, then do a damn
check and move on. Why leave that in the hands of humans. Again
doesn't make sense,
>
> Disclaimer: I worked on Windows NT during 10 years at Microsoft as a
> developer and manager. In fact, today, I'm wearing my "NT GUI Dev Team"
> shirt. Currently I work on a BSD-based storage networking product for a
> small company. I really like BSD, but having examined both the NT and BSD
> kernels, do not feel that either deserves the reputation they have.
>
> Thanks for the fun exchange!
>
No offense, but I wondered from where the evangelical defense of NT was
coming. I agree, BSD Unix is not perfect, but I haven't found the
perfect OS yet, nor any that come close. And I have tried them!!! boy
have I tried them!!! still healing the scars.
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 27 23:59:24 2004
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From: David Kelly <dkelly@HiWAAY.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:59:20 -0500
To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
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Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows
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On Oct 27, 2004, at 11:25 AM, Kevin Lyons wrote:
> In pointing out the advantage of pointy clicky, I think you may
> overlook a signifigant deleterious side effect. In fact there is
> plenty of reason to disdain the point-click approach. Mainly because
> it adds complexity to the software which tends to make the software
> unstable. How often have you performed a gui command on a windoze
> "system" (pick your flavor) and found that 1 time out of 10 it did not
> work, even though the same procedure was repeated? How many times
> has that happened on a Unix box with command line?
As a mere mortal "forced" into Outlook at new employment I spent an
hour or so spread over the past couple of days trying to figure out how
the change the default password on my email account. The "admin" is an
hourly part-time consultant. My "default" password was same as
username.
Microsoft online help wasn't helpful. No phrase I could conjure and
utter as a magic spell would produce helpful hints.
Google turned out to be a better help system than Microsoft. Of course
the examples I found did not look like my version of Outlook. Learned
Outlook behaves differently if it has an Exchange Server to talk to,
which mine did not.
On a lark I opened the company mail host with Internet Exploder and
found a webmail server running which allowed changing my password. Knew
full well were to type the new one in Outlook and the change worked.
Then I installed Eudora in "advertising supported mode." Had more
problems until I discovered my email account name was my full email
address. When Eudora polls the server it says its checking
account@host@mail.host.
Prior to this situation I never fully understood how broken Outlook
really was. That it really won't let one properly insert-reply. That it
does not reply-quote any of the plain text component, not even when one
forces plain-text mode on reply. When one insert-quotes the HTML
section it only changes the color of one's text, does not break the
quote bar down the left side.
Overheard the Admin proclaim, "For only $X we can become a Microsoft
Partner and get all sorts of wonderful software thrown in!" I can smell
an Exchange server coming. I don't doubt Microsoft is one of the higher
paid "employees" at this little company.
--
David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net
========================================================================
Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 03:20:43 2004
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Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows
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On 2004-10-27 18:59, David Kelly <dkelly@HiWAAY.net> wrote:
> Overheard the Admin proclaim, "For only $X we can become a Microsoft
> Partner and get all sorts of wonderful software thrown in!" I can smell
> an Exchange server coming. I don't doubt Microsoft is one of the higher
> paid "employees" at this little company.
More like a full blown MSDN subscription, which will let you receive versions
of Windows, the operating system, Exchange, Outlook, Internet Explorer and a
host of other tools for many exotic languages you will never really need ;-)
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 14:53:07 2004
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David Kelly wrote:
>
> Google turned out to be a better help system than Microsoft. Of course
> the examples I found did not look like my version of Outlook. Learned
> Outlook behaves differently if it has an Exchange Server to talk to,
> which mine did not.
Oh yes. Very differently. Outhouse was made to sell Exchange. When
using Outhouse with an RFC compliant IMAP server you will find all kinds
of intentional mess-ups in Outlook. For instance,
-Outlook will create a new mailserver imap store but will not create a
sent items folder in it. IF you create it manually, there is no easy
way to tell it to move sent items from the "local profiles" folder to
the imap sent items store. There is a microsoft knowledge base on how
to write a ruleset to do it; but guess what, it doesn't work on all
systems. According to microsoft, service pack 2 must be installed but
again guess what, even on some systems with sp2, the rule still doesnt
work. oh well, clean install time. Even netscape will allow you to
simply select a sent items folder for your imap store.
-It is almost impossible to get outlook to stop sending attachments in
their propreity .dat format. Even in forced plain text mode which the
knowledgebase says will force mime, the thing still sends in .dat.
-Ironically Outlook Express can't read .dat attachments, nor can many
mail readers. So in a typical situation, you send email at work then
try from home to read a sent item with an attachment and guess what, the
attachment doesnt show up. Ironically, Outlook Express does handle sent
mail properly. Outlook Express is more standards compliant that Outlook
proper. Pathetic.
Bottom line is that Outlook is intentionally crippled by microsoft to
work with IMAP, which is a serious competitor (superior scalability for
sure) to Exchange. And they wonder why they are hated and despised.
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 15:02:31 2004
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Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows
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David Kelly <dkelly@HiWAAY.net> writes:
> As a mere mortal "forced" into Outlook at new employment [...]
'portinstall ximian-connector'
DES
--=20
Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 15:34:22 2004
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David Kelly wrote:
> Google turned out to be a better help system than Microsoft.
This should really be giving Microsoft something to worry about... =)
OTOH, I guess, google is a better help system than most commercial vendor's
help system.
At work, I'm currently working with IBM's z/OS, and it has some really
/strange/
quirks the docs don't mention at all, like variant characters in EBCDIC that
/IBM's/ proprietary Terminal-emulation is unable to display correctly...
(Then again, it's not exactly a desktop operating system...)
Kind regards,
Benjamin
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Dear members of the freebsd mailing list,
I'm new to freebsd and still trying to learn some
basic concepts as far as configurating it as operating
system. The question that I'm about to ask is probably
very simple so I ask for your excuse to bother you
with hat question but I'm trying to figure it out for
a long time now and still no results.
I'm trying to setup my FreeBSD 5.2 Realease to act as
a Nat router/ gateway. I compiled the kernel by
including the following options :
options IPFIREWALL
options IPDIVERT
options IPSEC
options IPSEC_ESP
options IPSEC_DEBUG
options IPFILTER
options PFIL_HOOKS
attached are my inetd.conf ; ipf.rules ; ipnat.rules
and rc.conf files.
I'm able to ping both networks and access internet
from the freebsd machine. From the external network I
cannot see the internal (as it should be) from the
internal I can ping the internal IP 192.168.1.1 of my
FreeBSD box and also the external IP address
84.21.192.168 but I'm not able to see the router of my
ISP 84.21.192.1 and for that reason I do not have
internet for the internal network. Please help me to
figure out why I'm not able to make this thing to
work. Any help is highly appreciated. Thank you in advance.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--0-473234177-1098991546=:66756
Content-Type: text/plain; name="inetd.conf.txt"
Content-Description: inetd.conf.txt
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="inetd.conf.txt"
$FreeBSD: src/etc/inetd.conf,v 1.63 2003/06/09 21:04:30 markm Exp $
#
# Internet server configuration database
#
# Define *both* IPv4 and IPv6 entries for dual-stack support.
# To disable a service, comment it out by prefixing the line with '#'.
# To enable a service, remove the '#' at the beginning of the line.
#
#ftp stream tcp nowait root /usr/libexec/ftpd ftpd -l
#ftp stream tcp6 nowait root /usr/libexec/ftpd ftpd -l
ssh stream tcp nowait root /usr/sbin/sshd sshd -i -4
ssh stream tcp6 nowait root /usr/sbin/sshd sshd -i -6
#telnet stream tcp nowait root /usr/libexec/telnetd telnetd
#telnet stream tcp6 nowait root /usr/libexec/telnetd telnetd
#shell stream tcp nowait root /usr/libexec/rshd rshd
#shell stream tcp6 nowait root /usr/libexec/rshd rshd
#login stream tcp nowait root /usr/libexec/rlogind rlogind
#login stream tcp6 nowait root /usr/libexec/rlogind rlogind
#finger stream tcp nowait/3/10 nobody /usr/libexec/fingerd fingerd -s
#finger stream tcp6 nowait/3/10 nobody /usr/libexec/fingerd fingerd -s
#exec stream tcp nowait root /usr/libexec/rexecd rexecd
#
# run comsat as root to be able to print partial mailbox contents w/ biff,
# or use the safer tty:tty to just print that new mail has been received.
#comsat dgram udp wait tty:tty /usr/libexec/comsat comsat
#
# ntalk is required for the 'talk' utility to work correctly
#ntalk dgram udp wait tty:tty /usr/libexec/ntalkd ntalkd
#tftp dgram udp wait root /usr/libexec/tftpd tftpd -s /tftpboot
#tftp dgram udp6 wait root /usr/libexec/tftpd tftpd -s /tftpboot
#bootps dgram udp wait root /usr/libexec/bootpd bootpd
#
# "Small servers" -- used to be standard on, but we're more conservative
# about things due to Internet security concerns. Only turn on what you
# need.
file "inetd.conf", 119 lines
--0-473234177-1098991546=:66756
Content-Type: text/plain; name="ipf.rules.txt"
Content-Description: ipf.rules.txt
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ipf.rules.txt"
#Basic ruleset
block in all with frag
#Only I can pass packets out on the external interface
pass out quick rl0 proto tcp from 84.21.192.150 to any keep state
pass out quick on rl0 proto udp from 84.21.192.150 to any keep state
pass out quick on rl0 proto icmp from 84.21.192.150 to any keep state
pass out quick all
block in on rl0 proto icmp all
pass in on rl0 proto icmp from any to any icmp-type echo
pass in on rl0 proto icmp from any to any icmp-type echorep
block in on rl0 proto icmp from any to any icmp-type unreach code3
#Block all other non established connections
block in quick on rl0 proto tcp from any to any flags S/SA
--0-473234177-1098991546=:66756
Content-Type: text/plain; name="rc.conf.txt"
Content-Description: rc.conf.txt
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="rc.conf.txt"
# -- sysinstall generated deltas -- # Thu Feb 3 00:05:26 2000
# Created: Thu Feb 3 00:05:26 2000
# Enable network daemons for user convenience.
# Please make all changes to this file, not to /etc/defaults/rc.conf.
# This file now contains just the overrides from /etc/defaults/rc.conf.
defaultrouter="84.21.192.1"
gateway_enable="YES"
hostname="ironhost.server.com"
#ipsec_enable="YES"
enable_firewall="YES"
firewall_type="OPEN"
firewall_quiet="YES"
ipfilter_enable="YES"
ipnat_enable="YES"
natd_enable="YES"
natd_interface="rl0"
natd_flags="-f /etc/natd.rules"
sendmail_enable="NONE"
fsck_y_enable="YES"
syslogd_enable="NO"
inetd_enable="YES"
ifconfig_rl0="inet 84.21.192.150 netmask 255.255.255.0"
ifconfig_rl1="inet 192.168.1.1 netmask 255.255.0.0"
linux_enable="YES"
moused_enable="YES"
sshd_enable="YES"
usbd_enable="NO"
# This file now contains just the overrides from /etc/defaults/rc.conf.
# Please make all changes to this file, not to /etc/defaults/rc.conf.
# Enable network daemons for user convenience.
# Created: Fri Feb 4 09:25:44 2000
# -- sysinstall generated deltas -- # Fri Feb 4 09:25:44 2000
ifconfig_rl0="inet 84.21.192.150 netmask 255.255.255.0"
file "rc.conf", 38 lines
--0-473234177-1098991546=:66756
Content-Type: text/plain; name="ipnat.rules.txt"
Content-Description: ipnat.rules.txt
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ipnat.rules.txt"
map rl0 10.0.0.0/24 -> 0.0.0.0/32 portmap tcp/udp 40000:65000
map rl0 10.0.0.0/24 -> 0.0.0.0/32
rdr rl0 0.0.0.0/0 port 3389 -> 192.168.1.2 port 3389
--0-473234177-1098991546=:66756--
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 20:48:46 2004
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 22:48:43 +0200
From: Phil Schulz <ph.schulz@gmx.de>
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cc: TM4525@aol.com
cc: tedm@toybox.placo.com
Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence
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[Moved to chat@ from questions@ since the discussion isn't strictly
about FreeBSD anymore]
TM4525@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/26/04 2:32:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> tedm@toybox.placo.com writes:
> Actually a more interesting example is some of the Linksys routers
> do indeed use an embedded Linux along with Zebra as the routing engine.
>
> Ted
> Or Allot communications, who openly advertise the use of linux, but do
> not make source available to an obviously modified kernel.. I believe they
> claim that the GPL is optional.
I don't think that Allot modifies the Linux kernel. I wouldn't expect
them to do so and I don't see an obvious reason why they should (*).
Obviously some of their custom stuff needs to run inside kernel, but I
rather think they enhance the kernel with some loadable modules or
whatever (does Linux have KLDs?).
In a case, it is not really clear if the product needs to be licensed
under the GPL. You could see your product as an application designed for
Linux, so you think it is your choice on how to license your code, but...
A while back, I fast-read a post of Linus Torvalds to a mailing list
saying why he thinks that binary-only enhancements to linux must be GPL
licenced (and I believed the statemant was discussed on a FreeBSD-list
also). His argument was that by using the kernel headers your work
automatically becomes a derived work, thus it needs to be licensed under
the GPL. I seem to recall the discussion was about nVidia's closed
source, binary only drivers but, according to Linus, affects all similar
products. I'm unsure if and how this issue is being dealt with.
But then, I'm not sure (and I mean it) if there can be any piece of
software which, if designed for e.g. Linux, can be written w/o using any
system headers, libraries or whatsoever.
Personally, I like the BSD(-style) license better b/c I don't have to
worry about such things and therefore have more time to concentrate on
others.
Regards,
Phil.
(*) I've only ever worked with the NetEnforcer Products, don't know
Allot's other products.
P.S.: I do not know Linux at all and I don't feel that I have to get my
hands on it in the nearest future. I'm just stating my opinion, how I
see things and what observations I've made.
--
Did you know...
If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages,
but what's worse is when you play it forward....
...it installs Windows 2000
-- Alfred Perlstein on chat@freebsd.org
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 28 23:47:19 2004
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:47:12 -0500
From: "Collin J. Kreklow" <collin@kreklow.us>
To: Zhelyazko Georgiev <jeliazkoge@yahoo.com>
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On Thu, Oct 28, 2004 at 12:25:46PM -0700, Zhelyazko Georgiev wrote:
> Dear members of the freebsd mailing list,
> I'm new to freebsd and still trying to learn some
Welcome to FreeBSD!
> basic concepts as far as configurating it as operating
> system. The question that I'm about to ask is probably
> very simple so I ask for your excuse to bother you
> with hat question but I'm trying to figure it out for
> a long time now and still no results.
No problem. A helpful hint: it is usually better to ask general
questions on the -questions mailing list; -chat is mostly off-topic
discussion :)
> I'm trying to setup my FreeBSD 5.2 Realease to act as
> a Nat router/ gateway. I compiled the kernel by
> including the following options :
You should consider upgrading to 5.3 (RC1, soon to be Release). That's
not absolutely necessary, but it's a good idea.
> options IPFIREWALL
> options IPDIVERT
Since you're using ipf below, you don't need IPFIREWALL and IPDIVERT.
They are only used for ipfw and natd. You can leave them in if you
want, they won't do anything unless you enable ipfw or natd.
> options IPSEC
> options IPSEC_ESP
> options IPSEC_DEBUG
> options IPFILTER
> options PFIL_HOOKS
>
> attached are my inetd.conf ; ipf.rules ; ipnat.rules
> and rc.conf files.
>
> I'm able to ping both networks and access internet
> from the freebsd machine. From the external network I
> cannot see the internal (as it should be) from the
> internal I can ping the internal IP 192.168.1.1 of my
> FreeBSD box and also the external IP address
> 84.21.192.168 but I'm not able to see the router of my
> ISP 84.21.192.1 and for that reason I do not have
> internet for the internal network. Please help me to
> figure out why I'm not able to make this thing to
> work. Any help is highly appreciated. Thank you in advance.
Based on the information you have provided, I think we have similar
setups, so I'll base my suggestions off what I'm doing here.
The first place to start configuring is your rc.conf. The following
options control IPFW and natd. Since you are using ipf, you should
remove these from your rc.conf:
> enable_firewall="YES"
> firewall_type="OPEN"
> firewall_quiet="YES"
> natd_enable="YES"
> natd_interface="rl0"
> natd_flags="-f /etc/natd.rules"
You should also remove this option:
> inetd_enable="YES"
It is not necessary because you have:
> sshd_enable="YES"
You also have this line twice (which should be harmless):
> ifconfig_rl0="inet 84.21.192.150 netmask 255.255.255.0"
I am no expert on ipf rules, so instead of commenting on what you have,
I'll just show you what I've got (xl0 is external, xl1 is internal):
/etc/ipf.rules:
block in all
block out all
pass in quick on lo0
pass out quick on lo0
pass in quick on xl1 from 192.168.1.0/24 to any
pass out quick on xl1 from any to 192.168.1.0/24
pass out on xl0 proto tcp from any to any flags S keep state keep frags
pass out on xl0 proto udp from any to any keep state
pass out on xl0 proto icmp from any to any icmp-type 8 keep state
pass out on xl0 proto gre from any to any keep state
/etc/ipnat.rules:
map xl0 192.168.1.0/24 -> 0/32 portmap tcp/udp auto
map xl0 192.168.1.0/24 -> 0/32
Hopefully this information will get you pointed in the right direction.
Collin
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 01:11:57 2004
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Subject: Re: Serious investigations into UNIX and Windows
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On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:17, Kevin Lyons wrote:
> -It is almost impossible to get outlook to stop sending attachments in
> their propreity .dat format. Even in forced plain text mode which the
> knowledgebase says will force mime, the thing still sends in .dat.
BTW if you have to suffer this you can use ktnef which is part of kdepim to=
=20
view it's contents.
There's also /usr/ports/converters/tnef and a bunch of other ports which ca=
n=20
handle it. (Annoying but it beats running outlook :)
=2D-=20
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
-- Andrew Tanenbaum
GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C
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cc: TM4525@aol.com
cc: tedm@toybox.placo.com
Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence
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> But then, I'm not sure (and I mean it) if there can be any piece of
> software which, if designed for e.g. Linux, can be written w/o using any
> system headers, libraries or whatsoever.
You can do this with only moderate difficulty and moderate inefficiency if
you want to. All you have to do is:
1) Define your own kernel interface that your proprietary module will use.
2) Implement this interface in a kernel module that is GPL.
3) Distribute your proprietary module such that it uses only your own
interface.
This way, your module need only use your own headers, which you distribute
under the GPL as well as other licenses.
The inefficiency comes from having to convert between your own structures
and values to and from the Linux kernel structures and values. If you're
really clever, you can rig it so that the conversion reduces to no-ops on at
least some kernel versions for many conversions, still without using the
Linux kernel header files.
You are also free to use subterfuge of any kind to get around any
restrictions the Linux kernel may attempt to impose upon you because these
are not license enforcement mechanisms. The Linux kernel does not, and *may*
not, contain any license enforcement mechanisms that affect *use*, and
obviously anything that could affect the runnning of your module would be
affecting use. (The GPL does not restrict use and prohibits any 'additional
restrictions', thus any thing that seemed to be an additional restriction
could not be a license enforment mechanism because the restriction is not in
the license.)
DS
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 06:10:08 2004
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From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com>
To: "Phil Schulz" <ph.schulz@gmx.de>, <chat@freebsd.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:09:54 -0700
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cc: TM4525@aol.com
Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Schulz [mailto:ph.schulz@gmx.de]
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 1:49 PM
> To: chat@freebsd.org
> Cc: TM4525@aol.com; tedm@toybox.placo.com
> Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence
>
> A while back, I fast-read a post of Linus Torvalds to a mailing list
> saying why he thinks that binary-only enhancements to linux must be GPL
> licenced (and I believed the statemant was discussed on a FreeBSD-list
> also). His argument was that by using the kernel headers your work
> automatically becomes a derived work, thus it needs to be licensed under
> the GPL. I seem to recall the discussion was about nVidia's closed
> source, binary only drivers but, according to Linus, affects all similar
> products. I'm unsure if and how this issue is being dealt with.
It is. It is the stated policy of the FSF that loadable kernel modules
are considered part of the GPL work and therefore must be GPL'ed
themselves. That is where all this is coming from. It is kind of
a personal vendetta/issue with RMS I understand. This position has
also created lots of controversy as you might imagine.
> But then, I'm not sure (and I mean it) if there can be any piece of
> software which, if designed for e.g. Linux, can be written w/o using any
> system headers, libraries or whatsoever.
They make an exception for libraries with the LGPL license. Certain
ones, only, however.
All this is discussed on the FSF website, by the way.
Ted
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 06:22:44 2004
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From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com>
To: <davids@webmaster.com>, <chat@freebsd.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:22:40 -0700
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cc: TM4525@aol.com
Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence
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The GPL and Linux don't care if you link into their system libraries,
they expect that which is why the system libraries are LGPLd
What they care about is linking into libraries (like readline) which
they consider "their" work. If you do it, regardless of whether you
use those library headers or use a translation think like you are
outlining here, you must GPL your stuff.
The contamination comes from linking in, even dynamically, not from
just using ascii source files.
Ted
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Schwartz [mailto:davids@webmaster.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:15 PM
> To: chat@freebsd.org
> Cc: TM4525@aol.com; tedm@toybox.placo.com
> Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence
>
>
>
> > But then, I'm not sure (and I mean it) if there can be any piece of
> > software which, if designed for e.g. Linux, can be written w/o using any
> > system headers, libraries or whatsoever.
>
> You can do this with only moderate difficulty and moderate
> inefficiency if
> you want to. All you have to do is:
>
> 1) Define your own kernel interface that your proprietary
> module will use.
>
> 2) Implement this interface in a kernel module that is GPL.
>
> 3) Distribute your proprietary module such that it uses
> only your own
> interface.
>
> This way, your module need only use your own headers, which
> you distribute
> under the GPL as well as other licenses.
>
> The inefficiency comes from having to convert between your
> own structures
> and values to and from the Linux kernel structures and values. If you're
> really clever, you can rig it so that the conversion reduces to
> no-ops on at
> least some kernel versions for many conversions, still without using the
> Linux kernel header files.
>
> You are also free to use subterfuge of any kind to get around any
> restrictions the Linux kernel may attempt to impose upon you because these
> are not license enforcement mechanisms. The Linux kernel does
> not, and *may*
> not, contain any license enforcement mechanisms that affect *use*, and
> obviously anything that could affect the runnning of your module would be
> affecting use. (The GPL does not restrict use and prohibits any
> 'additional
> restrictions', thus any thing that seemed to be an additional restriction
> could not be a license enforment mechanism because the
> restriction is not in
> the license.)
>
> DS
>
>
>
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 06:29:16 2004
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From: Jakob Breivik Grimstveit <jakob@ikkjereklame.grimstveit.no.invalid>
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At my local *BSD- and Linux User Group [1} we yesterday had a presentation
by eZ Publish [2] a PHP based CMS and portal builder framework for web.
During the session it was stated by the speaker mentioned that running
their system on FreeBSD (both 4.x and 5.x) not necessarily would be a good
thing due to a lot of filesystem calls in their product, which PHP on
FreeBSD had performance problems with under high load. In other words he
did not recommend FreeBSD as server platform for eZ Publish (or any
other PHP software for that matter) where a high number of visitors was
probable.
I found this to be difficult to believe, and decided to ask you about
whether this might be the case or not.
[1]: <http://www.blug.linux.no/> - Bergen (*BSD and) Linux User Group
[2]: <http://www.ez.no/> - eZ Publish
--
Jakob Breivik Grimstveit, http://www.grimstveit.no/jakob, +47 48298152
Bruk Newsergalleriet! No på http://www.newsergalleriet.no/
Treng du noko på CD?: http://www.grimstveit.no/jakob/burncd_no
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 09:26:54 2004
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I thought I sent that mail to chat@, I wonder how the reply ended up at
questions@ again. Unfortunately my provider won't let me set a Reply-To:
header.
TM4525@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/28/04 4:49:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> ph.schulz@gmx.de writes:
>
> > I don't think that Allot modifies the Linux kernel. I wouldn't expect
> > them to do so and I don't see an obvious reason why they should (*).
> > Obviously some of their custom stuff needs to run inside kernel, but I
> > rather think they enhance the kernel with some loadable modules or
> > whatever (does Linux have KLDs?).
>
> Then you either know nothing about programming or nothing about their
> products. Do you think they do gigabit bandwidth management, with
> features not in the kernel, from user space?
That's not what I meant and not what I wrote.
You can write a loadable kernel module w/o changing the kernel sources,
can't you?
> Plus, if they were using an
> unmodified kernel, why not provide the source? Put it on the machine.
> Whats the harm?
What's the use of it? Would you pay a load of money for a product,
modify it and therefore lose all the support?
> > A while back, I fast-read a post of Linus Torvalds to a mailing list
> > saying why he thinks that binary-only enhancements to linux must be GPL
> > licenced (and I believed the statemant was discussed on a FreeBSD-list
> > also). His argument was that by using the kernel headers your work
> > automatically becomes a derived work, thus it needs to be licensed under
> > the GPL. I seem to recall the discussion was about nVidia's closed
> Modules use headers and are not "GPLed", so clearly you're just
> plain wrong.
Ok, we agree that modules use headers and that at least some modules
are not GPL licensed. Why am I wrong?
We should also agree that (at least some) kernel headers are GPL'ed.
You can verify this yourself if you have the time and the bandwith. My
point was that some people think that if you use a GPL'ed header file,
your work must be under the GPL as well. I don't have an opinion on that
point b/c I haven't had the need to think about it yet.
I was rather trying to say that not even Linux people agree on how to
interpret the GPL.
>
> Linus is just a big dope anyway, so who cares what he thinks? He's like
> Kerry. He thinks whatever is convenient for him to think at the time.
I don't care a whole lot about the upcoming U.S. election. Plus I
think it is highly inappropriate to state your political opinion in such
a way on this list. It's not what the list is there for.
Kind regards,
Phil.
--
Did you know...
If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages,
but what's worse is when you play it forward....
...it installs Windows 2000
-- Alfred Perlstein on chat@freebsd.org
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 09:52:30 2004
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Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence
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Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David Schwartz [mailto:davids@webmaster.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:15 PM
> > To: chat@freebsd.org
> > Cc: TM4525@aol.com; tedm@toybox.placo.com
> > Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence
> >
> > > But then, I'm not sure (and I mean it) if there can be any piece of
> > > software which, if designed for e.g. Linux, can be written w/o using any
> > > system headers, libraries or whatsoever.
> >
> > You can do this with only moderate difficulty and moderate
> > inefficiency if you want to. All you have to do is:
> >
> > 1) Define your own kernel interface that your proprietary
> > module will use.
> >
> > 2) Implement this interface in a kernel module that is GPL.
> >
> > 3) Distribute your proprietary module such that it uses only
> > your own interface.
> >
> > This way, your module need only use your own headers, which
> > you distribute under the GPL as well as other licenses.
>
> The GPL and Linux don't care if you link into their system libraries,
> they expect that which is why the system libraries are LGPLd
>
> What they care about is linking into libraries (like readline) which
> they consider "their" work. If you do it, regardless of whether you
> use those library headers or use a translation think like you are
> outlining here, you must GPL your stuff.
>
> The contamination comes from linking in, even dynamically, not from
> just using ascii source files.
>
> Ted
>
So I cannot use GPL'ed (vs LGPL'ed) library for software w/o placing
the result under the GPL?
I think I'm realizing once again that I don't fully get the GNU
interpretation of "free". To me, "free" means more sth like "here, take
it and do what you want w/ it, but don't bother me if you screw up"
which is why I favour BSD-style licensed software.
Kind regards,
Phil.
--
Did you know...
If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages,
but what's worse is when you play it forward....
...it installs Windows 2000
-- Alfred Perlstein on chat@freebsd.org
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 11:36:11 2004
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:36:05 +0100
From: Paul Robinson <paul@iconoplex.co.uk>
To: jakob@grimstveit.no
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Subject: Re: PHP performance on FreeBSD 4.x and 5.x
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On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 08:29:40AM +0200, Jakob Breivik Grimstveit wrote:
> At my local *BSD- and Linux User Group [1} we yesterday had a presentation
> by eZ Publish [2] a PHP based CMS and portal builder framework for web.
Oh, another one. What the world needs is more PHP based CMS and portal
builder frameworks for the web.
*sigh*.
> During the session it was stated by the speaker mentioned that running
> their system on FreeBSD (both 4.x and 5.x) not necessarily would be a good
> thing due to a lot of filesystem calls in their product, which PHP on
> FreeBSD had performance problems with under high load. In other words he
> did not recommend FreeBSD as server platform for eZ Publish (or any
> other PHP software for that matter) where a high number of visitors was
> probable.
>
> I found this to be difficult to believe, and decided to ask you about
> whether this might be the case or not.
Well, first off, they've just told you that their product doesn't scale
because it's I/O bound to disk. This should make you question their
competence, seeing as this is a web application. I for one, would be
reluctant to buy their product if they had just told me it'll start to
break because they can't engineer their way around a known performance
constraint. Especially when there are open source solutions that will.
Anyway, that doesn't answer your question.
It's been a while since I last did some serious benchmarking. Perhaps
it's time we went about looking at it again. I suspect a current stable
linux build would outperform FreeBSD 4.x on various fronts for reasons
most admins know about - some of the code in there is rather old. When
it comes to 5.x I'd be interested to know if they were running the
latest 5.3-RC code which doesn't have lots of debugging stuff thrown in,
or whether they were running older code that was explicitly not
recommended for production that had been built with the debug stuff.
I think this is a case of comparing apples with pears in one instance,
and gross incompetence and inability to read /usr/src/UPDATING in
another. I would ask them to repeat their test with 5.3-RELEASE in a
week or two. If the problem is still there, ask them to publish the
details of their benchmarks so we can assert whether there is a real
problem, or if they're just GPL-bunnies spreading FUD.
Whilst most users some time ago argued that BSD outperformed Linux and
was therefore better, increasingly I've found that BSD offers other
advantages over Linux regardless of Linux. I wouldn't worry too much
about benchmarks, but I do think they're probably wrong here.
--
Paul Robinson
http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/
"All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 13:27:46 2004
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Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence
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On 2004-10-29, Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>
> It is. It is the stated policy of the FSF that loadable kernel modules
> are considered part of the GPL work and therefore must be GPL'ed
> themselves. That is where all this is coming from.
Unless you're talking about the Hurd, the FSF has no say in the matter.
The issue is discussed here: http://kerneltrap.org/node/view/1735
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 16:25:22 2004
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From: "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com>
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:24:55 -0700
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cc: TM4525@aol.com
Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence
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> The GPL and Linux don't care if you link into their system libraries,
> they expect that which is why the system libraries are LGPLd
>
> What they care about is linking into libraries (like readline) which
> they consider "their" work. If you do it, regardless of whether you
> use those library headers or use a translation think like you are
> outlining here, you must GPL your stuff.
>
> The contamination comes from linking in, even dynamically, not from
> just using ascii source files.
Since the linking occurs *after* the distribution, it's part of use. How a
work is used, after its made and distributed, can't make it a derived work
of another work. The only way the GPL can be mandatory is if the thing it is
claimed to be mandatory for is a derived work.
If I write a piece of code that uses a defined interface, it's utterly
preposterous to argue that it is derivative from an *implementation* of that
interface, since it could be used with *any* implementation of that
interface.
It is, of course, derivative of the interface itself, which is why I
clearly specified that you should use your own interface.
DS
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 16:37:58 2004
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:37:52 -0400
From: Diane Bruce <db@db.net>
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Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence
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On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 09:24:55AM -0700, David Schwartz wrote:
>
> > The GPL and Linux don't care if you link into their system libraries,
> > they expect that which is why the system libraries are LGPLd
...
> If I write a piece of code that uses a defined interface, it's utterly
> preposterous to argue that it is derivative from an *implementation* of that
> interface, since it could be used with *any* implementation of that
> interface.
I suppose, one *could* have the situation where someone does a "clean room"
set of new include files derived from GPL ones. (This has happened already btw)
and have the DCMA used against this derivation. (I suppose. I am not a lawyer.)
- Diane
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 18:14:10 2004
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:14:06 -0600
From: Danny MacMillan <flowers@users.sourceforge.net>
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cc: jakob@grimstveit.no
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Subject: Re: PHP performance on FreeBSD 4.x and 5.x
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On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 05:36:05AM -0600, Paul Robinson wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 08:29:40AM +0200, Jakob Breivik Grimstveit wrote:
>
> > At my local *BSD- and Linux User Group [1} we yesterday had a
> > presentation by eZ Publish [2] a PHP based CMS and portal builder
> > framework for web.
>
> Oh, another one. What the world needs is more PHP based CMS and portal
> builder frameworks for the web.
Ordinarily I would agree with this sentiment, but eZ Publish is unique.
Their data model has characteristics I haven't seen in any other open
source CMS.
> > During the session it was stated by the speaker mentioned that
> > running their system on FreeBSD (both 4.x and 5.x) not necessarily
> > would be a good thing due to a lot of filesystem calls in their
> > product, which PHP on FreeBSD had performance problems with under
> > high load. In other words he did not recommend FreeBSD as server
> > platform for eZ Publish (or any other PHP software for that matter)
> > where a high number of visitors was probable.
> >
> > I found this to be difficult to believe, and decided to ask you about
> > whether this might be the case or not.
I doubt FreeBSD is at fault for this, but I can verify that (at least)
on FreeBSD it runs ridiculously slowly. At least an order of magnitude
slower than any other web application I've ever used. My testing was
by no means rigorous, and I was using old hardware (400MHz K6, 384MB),
but on a single user system with no other load it should not take 10
seconds to produce a simple front page with 3 article summaries. This
was a while ago, I don't have actual timing information, but put
it like this: by the time the page was served, I had lost interest
in seeing the result. EVERY page was abysmally slow.
The performance was so bad that even if some flaw in FreeBSD is making
it slower than it should be, I have no confidence that it would improve
enough under other operating systems to be scalable. Performance did
improve by about 30% when using turck mmcache, but again, not by enough.
> Well, first off, they've just told you that their product doesn't scale
> because it's I/O bound to disk. This should make you question their
> competence, seeing as this is a web application. I for one, would be
> reluctant to buy their product if they had just told me it'll start to
> break because they can't engineer their way around a known performance
> constraint. Especially when there are open source solutions that will.
Not functionally comparable to this one; it really is different. But
unless you have the budget for some serious iron, I wouldn't even go
there if you need scalability. Opinion not scientific, yadda ya, and
I'd love to be disproved, but ... it's a clunker.
--
Danny
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 29 19:35:42 2004
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Subject: name conflicts (was: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence)
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On Thu, Oct 28, 2004, David Schwartz wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2004, Phil Schulz wrote:
Gah! You two are confusing me! ``Hey, wait a minute, I didn't
write that!''
I guess it's better than being one of the various Tom Rhodeses...
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 00:42:29 2004
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Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence
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> I suppose, one *could* have the situation where someone does a
> "clean room"
> set of new include files derived from GPL ones. (This has
> happened already btw)
> and have the DCMA used against this derivation. (I suppose. I am
> not a lawyer.)
It is not possible, the DMCA only applies to restrictions against use, and
the GPL neither has nor allows any. IANAL, but as far as I can tell, ther
eis no conceivable way there could be a DMCA issue with a GPL'd work.
DS
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 02:49:07 2004
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:49:04 -0500
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Subject: Re: name conflicts (was: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence)
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On Oct 29, 2004, at 2:35 PM, David Schultz wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2004, David Schwartz wrote:
>> On Thu, Oct 28, 2004, Phil Schulz wrote:
>
> Gah! You two are confusing me! ``Hey, wait a minute, I didn't
> write that!''
>
> I guess it's better than being one of the various Tom Rhodeses...
>
Tom, I hate to break it to you, but you are Tom Rhodes.
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 05:00:26 2004
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From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com>
To: "Phil Schulz" <ph.schulz@gmx.de>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Schulz [mailto:ph.schulz@gmx.de]
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 2:52 AM
> To: Ted Mittelstaedt
> Cc: davids@webmaster.com; chat@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence
>
>
> So I cannot use GPL'ed (vs LGPL'ed) library for software w/o placing
> the result under the GPL?
Correct - per the FSF's interpretation of the GPL.
> I think I'm realizing once again that I don't fully get the GNU
> interpretation of "free". To me, "free" means more sth like "here, take
> it and do what you want w/ it, but don't bother me if you screw up"
> which is why I favour BSD-style licensed software.
>
I don't think that anyone really gets anything that RMS says about
anything.
Ted
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 05:48:52 2004
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From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com>
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:48:48 -0700
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Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Schwartz [mailto:davids@webmaster.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:25 AM
> To: tedm@toybox.placo.com; chat@freebsd.org
> Cc: TM4525@aol.com
> Since the linking occurs *after* the distribution, it's
> part of use. How a
> work is used, after its made and distributed, can't make it a derived work
> of another work.
That is one of the arguments. But, the GPL is concerned with distribution.
I think this has been raised before with them. I think that the scenario
was, if I make a program that dynamically links into GPL, then I distribute
both my program and the GPL code that it links into, do I have to put my
program under GPL? I think their answer was yes - they argued that when
the linking takes place and who links it is immaterial, and that the fact
that your program cannot run without their stuff means that when your code
is running, that your program and their stuff become as a single program.
This is why they created the LGPL.
>
> If I write a piece of code that uses a defined interface,
> it's utterly
> preposterous to argue that it is derivative from an
> *implementation* of that
> interface, since it could be used with *any* implementation of that
> interface.
>
And if you found some non-GPL program that created the exact same interface
as your program needs, and distributed it and your program together, then
all this is a moot issue.
> It is, of course, derivative of the interface itself, which is why I
> clearly specified that you should use your own interface.
>
> DS
>
>
>
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 05:57:06 2004
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:56:54 -0600
To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com>,
<davids@webmaster.com>, <chat@freebsd.org>
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At 11:48 PM 10/29/2004, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>That is one of the arguments. But, the GPL is concerned with distribution.
>I think this has been raised before with them. I think that the scenario
>was, if I make a program that dynamically links into GPL, then I distribute
>both my program and the GPL code that it links into, do I have to put my
>program under GPL? I think their answer was yes - they argued that when
>the linking takes place and who links it is immaterial, and that the fact
>that your program cannot run without their stuff means that when your code
>is running, that your program and their stuff become as a single program.
>
>This is why they created the LGPL.
And then, after Linux was a success and they'd gotten a lock on
certain application areas for UNIX-like operating systems
(e.g. compilers), they made the LGPL more restrictive and
renamed it from the "Library GPL" to the "Lesser GPL."
And since the FSF requires all of the "GNU" software to be
signed over to it, suddenly the rug is pulled out from under
those who were using the software under the less restrictive
license. The FSF now recommends that libraries be GPLed, to
trap developers.
Stallman loves to say, "Gotcha!"
--Brett Glass
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 07:49:32 2004
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From: Sergey Zaharchenko <doublef@tele-kom.ru>
To: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." <kdk@daleco.biz>
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On Fri, Oct 29, 2004 at 12:45:29PM -0500,
Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. probably wrote:
> [1] I am in no way associated with the FreeBSD Project or Foundation, nor
> America Online, not Time-Warner, etc. I am not a lawyer, nor a doctor, a=
nd
> I have never "acted" like anything but myself when on television....
>=20
> [2] I am in no wise recommending that anyone **else** add this address to
> their "killfile".
>=20
> [3] If you need help in configuring message rules for your particular
> MUA, there are lots of _nice_ folks on the lists who will be happy to
> give assistance...
Why not this way:
I'm neither a qualified psychiatrist nor an AI engineer, and
This is not a letter promoting the abuse of emacs, but
If you need help with a procmail script that passes certain letters
to the Doctor... :)
Like,
> The question is, have YOU used anything else? Or are you like the old
> woman who still washes her clothes in the river because "those darned
> mechanical things aren't worth it"?
Is it because those darned mechanical things are not worth it that you
came to me?
--=20
DoubleF
Ask not for whom the telephone bell tolls ... if thou art in the
bathtub, it tolls for thee.
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From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 12:28:35 2004
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Subject: Why do you do it?
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Hi,
I apologize if I'm not posting to the right list but this is for the FreeBSD
developers.
Poul-Henning Kamp recently authored this months edition of the Daemon's
Advocate on the Daemon News Ezine [1] titled "Why bother?" This generated
some interesting discussion among some members of our [2] local BUG. I was
going to respond with my opinion but I thought it would be better to ask the
FreeBSD developers directly:
As far as the FreeBSD user community goes it's a no-brainer for me, FreeBSD
touts a long list of reasons why someone interested in UNIX, computing,
programming and/or networking would want to use it. However, I've always
wondered what motivates the FreeBSD Developers. The general explanation I've
heard is "Because we get to work on projects we're interested in as opposed
to profit-based projects imposed by our employers which we may or may not be
interested in." Is it that simple or does it go deeper? Why do you do it?
What motivates you?
I hope this isn't a "Bikeshed" [3] and if this is the wrong list I'd
appreciate being pointed to the right one.
Thanks
-Joe
[1]http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200410/dadvocate.html
[2]http://www.gubug.org
[3]htttp://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/misc.html#BIKESHED-PAINTING
From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 30 21:38:27 2004
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From: "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com>
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Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:37:48 -0700
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Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence
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> That is one of the arguments. But, the GPL is concerned with
> distribution.
> I think this has been raised before with them. I think that the scenario
> was, if I make a program that dynamically links into GPL, then I
> distribute
> both my program and the GPL code that it links into, do I have to put my
> program under GPL? I think their answer was yes - they argued that when
> the linking takes place and who links it is immaterial, and that the fact
> that your program cannot run without their stuff means that when your code
> is running, that your program and their stuff become as a single program.
This argument is obviously, IMO, absurd. Suppose I make a product that
*can* link to a GPL'd library but could, of course, also link to any other
library that provided the same interface. The FSF is arguing that as soon as
somebody links it to the GPL'd library, it becomes a derived work even
though it wasn't one before.
Nothing that you can do with a work after it's produced can turn that work
into a derivative work of another work. For copyright purposes, it's only
the creative content in the work itself that matters. What you do with that
work later could create new works that have a different status, but can't
change the status of the work itself.
The FSF is, of course, free to take any position they wish, but this one
is, at least to me, absurd from a legal standpoint.
Even if the program had been designed from the beginning to work with an
interface that was currently only implemented in a GPL'd library, I would
still find the argument absurd (though slightly less so). The program is a
derived work from the interface itself, not from any particular
implementation of that interface. (And then you would have the very odd case
where whether A is a derivative work of B would depend upon whether B was
written before or after C!)
I can't imagine that anyone who understood what it is that grants you a
copyright and what a 'derivative' work really is would find this argument at
all persuasive.
DS