From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 19 05:32:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCA4416A4CE for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 05:32:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7879C43D58 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 05:32:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from teejay@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 55so27801wri for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 21:32:34 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VbRtvQJky9M/0wryjAXfukgNDwBK4NJwKzP2KurjLSee//5PsP2LT0l9PbkS6LB6VhlLd+QbETKijuBs2dkhWyWUK1t2UtB0TTeTtQPtskv3/sbTk6JSOywpIsaq3nzmyrvtFXsWiYRMf/MN7Nitmf356EnoRUm2XABqpth2kdI= Received: by 10.54.28.65 with SMTP id b65mr176623wrb; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 21:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.48.30 with HTTP; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 21:32:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8c0985ff041218213271cbb4f2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 13:32:34 +0800 From: Teejay Teodoro To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Background process script? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Teejay Teodoro List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 05:32:35 -0000 Hi, I'm new to the list. I'm planning to migrate my organization's Red Hat 9.0 shell machine to FreeBSD, but I am concerned about running background processes. Because my users are naughty (if you know what I mean), so I want to put a background process limit (of one bg process), like in my RH9 setup. I've tried limits(1) and login.conf (which is really great in limiting what the user could do) and I've setup maxproc but that's just for maximum running processes. I'm running FreeBSD 5.3-RELEASE by the way. Thanks in advance. -- teejay teodoro teejay[at]gmail[dot]com From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 19 08:06:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF1916A4CE; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 08:06:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nezlok.unixathome.org (nezlok.unixathome.org [66.154.97.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B476543D2F; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 08:06:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@nezlok.unixathome.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nezlok.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA3056ED; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 00:10:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from nezlok.unixathome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nezlok.unixathome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06739-10; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 00:10:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by nezlok.unixathome.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4324E54EB; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 00:10:03 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Langille To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20041219081003.4324E54EB@nezlok.unixathome.org> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 00:10:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at unixathome.org Subject: The FreeBSD Diary: 2004-11-28 - 2004-12-18 X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 08:06:04 -0000 The FreeBSD Diary contains a large number of practical examples and how-to guides. This message is posted weekly to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org with the aim of letting people know what's available on the website. Before you post a question here it might be a good idea to first search the mailing list archives and/or The FreeBSD Diary . These are the articles posted during this period: 6-Dec : Secure Your Wireless with IPsec WEP just isn't enough for me http://freebsddiary.org/ipsec-wireless.php?2 -- Dan Langille BSDCan - http://www.BSDCan.org/ - BSD Conference From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 19 08:39:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7012216A4CE for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 08:39:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mp.cs.niu.edu (mp.cs.niu.edu [131.156.68.41]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053FC43D2F for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 08:39:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bennett@cs.niu.edu) Received: from mp.cs.niu.edu (bennett@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mp.cs.niu.edu (8.13.2/8.13.2/d) with ESMTP id iBJ8dY5C025541 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 02:39:34 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 02:39:34 -0600 (CST) From: Scott Bennett Message-Id: <200412190839.iBJ8dYJC025540@mp.cs.niu.edu> To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: ifconfig for WLAN using WEP X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 08:39:39 -0000 I'm trying to get my FreeBSD 5.2.1 system to connect to our household wireless net. The router and the only other computer in the household are using WEP, so my FreeBSD machine needs to do so as well. Unfortunately, whenever I add a WEP-related argument (e.g., wep, wepkey, wepmode) to the ifconfig command, as in ifconfig fwe0 wep I get ifconfig: SIOCS80211: Invalid argument I'm currently running the GENERIC kernel, so perhaps I'm missing some config option. Although I've installed many other UNIX systems, this is my first attempt to get a FreeBSD system working, and thus I consider myself a newbie and am posting this problem to this list. If someone thinks I should have posted it to freebsd-questions, please let me know. I'm signed up there, too, so I can repost this over there if that would be more appropriate. If anyone can give me a clue how to get this thing working, I'd really appreciate it. The version of XFree86 that came on the CDROM for 5.2.1 is old and lacks the driver for the Mobility Radeon 9800 graphics card, so I am using the system with no graphics (and thus no windowing other than the old 4.3BSD window(1) command), which is a major drag. I need the net access to ftp the latest-and-greatest version of X11 or XFree86 to make the machine really usable. Scott Bennett, Comm. ASMELG, CFIAG ********************************************************************** * Internet: bennett at cs.niu.edu * *--------------------------------------------------------------------* * "A well regulated and disciplined militia, is at all times a good * * objection to the introduction of that bane of all free governments * * -- a standing army." * * -- Gov. John Hancock, New York Journal, 28 January 1790 * ********************************************************************** From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 19 14:45:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3733616A4CE for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 14:45:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from balu.sch.bme.hu (balu.sch.bme.hu [152.66.208.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38AD843D39 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 14:45:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tamas@bazmag.hu) Received: from [152.66.211.76] by balu.sch.bme.hu (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 Patch 1 (built Jan 28 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I8Z00GNY4Z4JL00@balu.sch.bme.hu> for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 15:45:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 15:45:08 +0100 From: Tamas MEZEI In-reply-to: <200412190839.iBJ8dYJC025540@mp.cs.niu.edu> To: Scott Bennett Message-id: <41C593F4.2000003@bazmag.hu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en References: <200412190839.iBJ8dYJC025540@mp.cs.niu.edu> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ifconfig for WLAN using WEP X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 14:45:07 -0000 > ifconfig fwe0 wep This should be a firewire device. Are you sure that you're connecting through an ethernet-over-firewire box to your household network? I'm not. What is the output of `ifconfig` on your PC? Tamas From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 19 14:48:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD7216A4CE for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 14:48:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A812343D45 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 14:48:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from orbman@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 67so365522wri for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 06:48:01 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Mniv3qqjKADzuUudwoQfGqsejk+xhBIYImqg/YS8O+o5eisk/sZiw5QXw6OSmr5giv0P3gyDoRgEFjeYRsf0rpqN1u6O9CiOodtZ6Cnk9GJDj/+3LdXTrfw51UvTiHmrEAgXLrgBrvBwCFQnSF79EoKeMUCPMSBI7nuCh9qthxg= Received: by 10.54.8.38 with SMTP id 38mr132602wrh; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 06:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.3.6 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 06:48:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <74709e4c0412190648a521836@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 14:48:01 +0000 From: Grant To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200412171830.32072.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <51428.192.168.1.1.1103328273.squirrel@mail.th-allisons.us> <41C38330.5060409@nbritton.org> <200412171830.32072.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: mark@the-allisons.us cc: Nikolas Britton Subject: Re: Webmin X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Grant List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 14:48:02 -0000 On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:30:31 -0800, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > On Friday 17 December 2004 05:09 pm, Nikolas Britton > wrote: > > mark@the-allisons.us wrote: > > >I've recently installed FreBSD on a system and I'm working though > > > the learning process. > > > > > >In order to ease the configuration and maintenance issues I > > > installed Webmin. > > > > I am of the opinion that if you want to learn something that you just > > dig in and go for it at full bore, (even if you brake it, as this is > > a very valuable learning experience in and of itself and one of the > > best ways to learn*) not skirt around the issue using some wizard > > thingy so you never have to learn it. What happens when your wizard > > thingy stops working or brakes your system, what are you going to do > > then? > > > > *This is why I setup test machines and try to brake crap then try to > > fix it, If I can't then all I have to do is wipe it clean and start > > over. VMware works very well for this. > > Yes, I agree, and you should probably get used to administration through > a shell (command line). I know this can be scary at first, but there is > no purpose in delaying getting used to it, because if you're going to > run FreeBSD, you have to get used to it. However, like grammar, once > you know the rules you can break them, within reason - once you > understand how to do it the "hard way," then figure out a way to make > it easier, except if doing it the hard way has a purpose (like > discouraging mistakes or certain behaviors), or many times you'll > discover that what looked like the hard way is actually easier. As an > example, at first I used cvsup with the gui, but I found almost > immediately that invoking it without the gui from a shell was not only > easier and simpler, but it also allowed me to use it within a script so > I could run it as a cron job. I still use a gui mailer and run my box > for everyday use with a desktop, but I do all administration with > shells or without X running at all (and sometimes Mutt and w3m are just > fine, instead of KMail and Firefox). FreeBSD is created more as a > server than a workstation or general desktop machine, but it works fine > for me that way, although the administration of it reflects this > distinction. I'm not saying you can't use Webmin, but I'd encourage you > to try to admin it the way it's designed before you start adding stuff > to it, just so you know what's going on behind that ui. > > As far as your particular problem, I'm not familiar with Webmin, but you > might have to install ssh or something similar to allow remote access > with it. That question is probably best asked on the -questions list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions , which is > the main tech help list - this is not a tech help list - although you > most likely will get a similar response, but perhaps someone does know. > > - jt > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Hey, I think webmin only allows localhost to connect at first, so either login to your desktop (if your running one) then shove it in your browser, or you could start a ssh session then run links or lynx go to the webmin pages via that, login and under one of the sections you can allow other address's (not sure which, i havnt used it for a while). Hope this helps you out... i think there is a way of doing it via a config file but i found that quickest for when i used it :) Bye. Grant. -- ---L I N U X--- -Phear the Penguin- http://www.linux.org From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 19 23:35:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8463D16A4CE for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 23:35:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B5143D39 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 23:35:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from geekout@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 55so63536wri for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 15:35:30 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=dkY0HWJPoGSLQRcFO6U27t6ux5J0tAPCmvDWuYmUif8UkYoHgPcU9YsIztnF+HHypMi9l/cTCzmIcKHV0Q0OpA0KEx+ImTrZ+XObjGruqB/+YfQnzI2GiHrljEXqtlylHhkOMg66GXrU/HfbPRfl0M9wJYwiJBn18L/zUKeWwo8= Received: by 10.54.6.56 with SMTP id 56mr28999wrf; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 15:35:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.46.34 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Dec 2004 15:35:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6e01203b041219153579bef72@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:35:30 -0700 From: Tyler Gee To: Tamas MEZEI In-Reply-To: <41C593F4.2000003@bazmag.hu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200412190839.iBJ8dYJC025540@mp.cs.niu.edu> <41C593F4.2000003@bazmag.hu> cc: Scott Bennett cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ifconfig for WLAN using WEP X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Tyler Gee List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 23:35:31 -0000 You will also need to specify the wep key. A good way of turning on wep and specifiying the key is: ifconfig fwe0 nwkey 0x999999999999 Using, of course, your wep key and and the correct iface. Tamas is right that it seems weird that you would be using a firewire nic. It is possible though, so just make sure you are using the right one. -wtgee On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 15:45:08 +0100, Tamas MEZEI wrote: > > ifconfig fwe0 wep > > This should be a firewire device. Are you sure that you're connecting > through an ethernet-over-firewire box to your household network? > I'm not. > > What is the output of `ifconfig` on your PC? > > Tamas > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 20 07:54:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B1BA16A4CE for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 07:54:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mp.cs.niu.edu (mp.cs.niu.edu [131.156.68.41]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA04C43D48 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 07:54:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bennett@cs.niu.edu) Received: from mp.cs.niu.edu (bennett@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mp.cs.niu.edu (8.13.2/8.13.2/d) with ESMTP id iBK7s61l020393 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 01:54:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 01:54:06 -0600 (CST) From: Scott Bennett Message-Id: <200412200754.iBK7s61d020392@mp.cs.niu.edu> To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ifconfig for WLAN using WEP X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 07:54:28 -0000 Tamas wrote: >> ifconfig fwe0 wep > >This should be a firewire device. Are you sure that you're connecting >through an ethernet-over-firewire box to your household network? >I'm not. The machine is a Dell Inspiron XPS. It has both a multi-speed Ethernet card and a wireless card. The latter is apparently hooked to the FireWire bus. Don't ask me why. I didn't design it; I just bought the box. > >What is the output of `ifconfig` on your PC? Sigh. I was afraid someone would ask that because a) it doesn't seem particularly relevant and b) I have to write everything down by hand, reboot to Windows XP, log in to another UNIX system via PuTTY, type in everything I've written down, then include it into my reply to you and the list. If anyone else wants to see more stuff, please minimize what you ask for as much as you can. That said, here is the ifconfig output preceded by some related lines extracted from dmesg output. Script started on Mon Dec 20 00:51:54 2004 hellas 101 %dmesg|grep fire firewire0: on fwohci0 fwe0: on firewire0 sbp0: on firewire0 firewire0: 1 nodes, maxhop <= 0, cable IRM = 0 (me) firewire0: bus manager 0 (me) hellas 102 %dmesg|grep fwe fwe0: on firewire0 if_fwe0: Fake Ethernet address: 3a:4f:c0:fe:0c:c1 hellas 103 %ifconfig bge0: flags=8843 mtu 1500 options=1b inet6 fe80::211:43ff:fe5d:cd2c:bge0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x1 inet 0.0.0.0 netmask 0xff000000 broadcast 255.255.255.255 ether 00:11:43:5d:cd:2c media: Ethernet autoselect (none) status: no carrier fwe0: flags=8802 mtu 1500 ether 3a:4f:c0:4e:0c:c1 ch 1 dma -1 lo0: flags=8049 mtu 16384 inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff000000 inet6 ::1 prefixlen 128 inet6 fe80::1%lo0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x3 hellas 104 %exit Script done on Mon Dec 20 00:52:52 2004 Scott Bennett, Comm. ASMELG, CFIAG ********************************************************************** * Internet: bennett at cs.niu.edu * *--------------------------------------------------------------------* * "A well regulated and disciplined militia, is at all times a good * * objection to the introduction of that bane of all free governments * * -- a standing army." * * -- Gov. John Hancock, New York Journal, 28 January 1790 * ********************************************************************** From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 20 08:08:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BAC816A4FC for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 08:08:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278E143D41 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 08:08:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 74C6A85678; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:37:58 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:37:58 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Scott Bennett Message-ID: <20041220080758.GM84787@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200412200754.iBK7s61d020392@mp.cs.niu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fdv96I0Kd+XSW/CM" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200412200754.iBK7s61d020392@mp.cs.niu.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ifconfig for WLAN using WEP X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 08:08:03 -0000 --fdv96I0Kd+XSW/CM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Monday, 20 December 2004 at 1:54:06 -0600, Scott Bennett wrote: > Tamas wrote: >>> ifconfig fwe0 wep >> >> This should be a firewire device. Are you sure that you're connecting >> through an ethernet-over-firewire box to your household network? >> I'm not. > > The machine is a Dell Inspiron XPS. It has both a multi-speed Ethernet > card and a wireless card. The latter is apparently hooked to the FireWire > bus. Don't ask me why. I didn't design it; I just bought the box. This thread is off topic. Please move to FreeBSD-questions. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --fdv96I0Kd+XSW/CM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBxoheIubykFB6QiMRAoJzAKCt2MZhEQP4yLnqainCqjqPNgQYggCfZPot XM2UP42T40W+Q7saJ9Ff5ZI= =/52L -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fdv96I0Kd+XSW/CM-- From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 20 08:09:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F4E616A51C for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 08:09:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mp.cs.niu.edu (mp.cs.niu.edu [131.156.145.41]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF9C143D54 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 08:09:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bennett@cs.niu.edu) Received: from mp.cs.niu.edu (bennett@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mp.cs.niu.edu (8.13.2/8.13.2/d) with ESMTP id iBK88Wkf020540 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 02:08:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 02:08:32 -0600 (CST) From: Scott Bennett Message-Id: <200412200808.iBK88WZx020539@mp.cs.niu.edu> To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ifconfig for WLAN using WEP X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 08:09:13 -0000 Tyler Gee wrote: >You will also need to specify the wep key. A good way of turning on >wep and specifiying the key is: > >ifconfig fwe0 nwkey 0x999999999999 > >Using, of course, your wep key and and the correct iface. Tamas is I believe I dealt with that when I wrote: ->... Unfortunately, ->whenever I add a WEP-related argument (e.g., wep, wepkey, wepmode) to the ->ifconfig command, as in -> -> ifconfig fwe0 wep -> ->I get -> -> ifconfig: SIOCS80211: Invalid argument If Tyler could please point out the portion of the above that he didn't understand, perhaps I could restate it another way for him. >right that it seems weird that you would be using a firewire nic. It >is possible though, so just make sure you are using the right one. > Argue that with either Dell or the folks who wrote the FreeBSD GENERIC kernel initialization routines. At this point, my somewhat-better-than-SWAG is that the support for fwe interfaces does not include support for WEP, and thus the "Invalid argument" returned to, and dutifully relayed by, ifconfig. If anyone can confirm or refute this conjecture, please do so. Suggestions for getting around the obstacle would also be appreciated. Thanks in advance! Scott Bennett, Comm. ASMELG, CFIAG ********************************************************************** * Internet: bennett at cs.niu.edu * *--------------------------------------------------------------------* * "A well regulated and disciplined militia, is at all times a good * * objection to the introduction of that bane of all free governments * * -- a standing army." * * -- Gov. John Hancock, New York Journal, 28 January 1790 * ********************************************************************** From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 20 17:25:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE7D16A4CE for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:25:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.finnovative.net (h204-247-59-114.ncal.verio.net [204.247.59.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33BCE43D5A for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:25:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from linuxuser@finnovative.net) Received: from [192.168.55.105] ([192.168.55.105]) by mail.finnovative.net over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 20 Dec 2004 09:25:17 -0800 Message-ID: <41C70AFD.9000609@finnovative.net> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 09:25:17 -0800 From: Joaquin Menchaca User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org References: <51428.192.168.1.1.1103328273.squirrel@mail.th-allisons.us> <41C38330.5060409@nbritton.org> <200412171830.32072.krinklyfig@spymac.com> In-Reply-To: <200412171830.32072.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2004 17:25:17.0778 (UTC) FILETIME=[DFE2F320:01C4E6B8] Subject: Re: Webmin X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:25:18 -0000 Joshua Tinnin wrote: >On Friday 17 December 2004 05:09 pm, Nikolas Britton > wrote: > > >>mark@the-allisons.us wrote: >> >> >>>I've recently installed FreBSD on a system and I'm working though >>>the learning process. >>> >>>In order to ease the configuration and maintenance issues I >>>installed Webmin. >>> >>> >>I am of the opinion that if you want to learn something that you just >>dig in and go for it at full bore, (even if you brake it, as this is >>a very valuable learning experience in and of itself and one of the >>best ways to learn*) not skirt around the issue using some wizard >>thingy so you never have to learn it. What happens when your wizard >>thingy stops working or brakes your system, what are you going to do >>then? >> >>*This is why I setup test machines and try to brake crap then try to >>fix it, If I can't then all I have to do is wipe it clean and start >>over. VMware works very well for this. >> >> > >Yes, I agree, and you should probably get used to administration through >a shell (command line). I know this can be scary at first, but there is >no purpose in delaying getting used to it, because if you're going to >run FreeBSD, you have to get used to it. However, like grammar, once >you know the rules you can break them, within reason - once you >understand how to do it the "hard way," then figure out a way to make >it easier, except if doing it the hard way has a purpose (like >discouraging mistakes or certain behaviors), or many times you'll >discover that what looked like the hard way is actually easier. As an >example, at first I used cvsup with the gui, but I found almost >immediately that invoking it without the gui from a shell was not only >easier and simpler, but it also allowed me to use it within a script so >I could run it as a cron job. I still use a gui mailer and run my box >for everyday use with a desktop, but I do all administration with >shells or without X running at all (and sometimes Mutt and w3m are just >fine, instead of KMail and Firefox). FreeBSD is created more as a >server than a workstation or general desktop machine, but it works fine >for me that way, although the administration of it reflects this >distinction. I'm not saying you can't use Webmin, but I'd encourage you >to try to admin it the way it's designed before you start adding stuff >to it, just so you know what's going on behind that ui. > >As far as your particular problem, I'm not familiar with Webmin, but you >might have to install ssh or something similar to allow remote access >with it. That question is probably best asked on the -questions list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions , which is >the main tech help list - this is not a tech help list - although you >most likely will get a similar response, but perhaps someone does know. > >- jt >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > Hey can I jump in. :-) I am totally of the faith that one should learn the command line way. However, there's nothing like a graphical interface that can bring many concepts together, as well as expose the user to new concepts. I am a right-side thinker (er or was that left side), and I understand things visually and abstractually. I started on Mac OS 6 (System 6), migrated to Windows platforms, and now I am a big time advocate of open source and love UNIX. :-) I couldn't have gotten here if it wasn't for the GUIs (some good some bad) that exposed me to many concepts. Once, I know the concept(s) and I merely ask, How do I do that on platform X... I hope that there can always be the best of both worlds, both a great UI, but excellent under-the-hood configuration through text config files. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 21 00:20:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D87B616A4CE for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:20:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33F0443D53 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:20:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from linguae@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180])DB08718001A0 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:20:40 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.31) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 21 Dec 2004 00:20:40 -0000 Received: by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B10B5E5BC7; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:20:40 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [4.246.114.145] by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com with http for linguae@lycos.com; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 19:20:40 -0500 From: linguae@lycos.com To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 19:20:40 -0500 X-Originating-Ip: 4.246.114.145 X-Originating-Server: ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20041221002040.B10B5E5BC7@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> Subject: 3Com Megahertz 3CXEM556 B Multifunction Card Not Working X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:20:42 -0000 Hello. I have problems trying to get my multifunction 3Com Megahertz 3CXEM5= 56 B Ethernet/56K Modem PCMCIA card working on FreeBSD 5.1 on my Compaq Arm= ada 7400. The card works perfectly (as far as the modem part, can't test t= he ethernet portion) on Windows 98 SE. Whenever I try to configure PPP for = my card on FreeBSD, when I type the dialing commands (such as at, atdt, etc= .), the output on the screen would either be jarbled or won't appear at all. Here is my dmesg output: Copyright (c) 1992-2003 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 5.1-RELEASE #0: Thu Jun 5 02:55:42 GMT 2003 root@wv1u.btc.adaptec.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC Preloaded elf kernel "/boot/kernel/kernel" at 0xc0689000. Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz Timecounter "TSC" frequency 266677223 Hz CPU: Pentium II/Pentium II Xeon/Celeron (266.68-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin =3D "GenuineIntel" Id =3D 0x652 Stepping =3D 2 Features=3D0x183f9ff real memory =3D 67067904 (63 MB) avail memory =3D 58134528 (55 MB) Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled npx0: on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface pcibios: BIOS version 2.10 Using $PIR table, 7 entries at 0xc00f0970 pcib0: at pcibus 0 on motherboard pci0: on pcib0 pcib1: at device 0.1 on pci0 pci1: on pcib1 pci1: at device 0.0 (no driver attached) cbb0: mem 0x7fffe000-0x7fffefff irq 11 at devic= e 12.0 on pci0 cardbus0: on cbb0 pccard0: <16-bit PCCard bus> on cbb0 cbb1: mem 0x7ffff000-0x7fffffff irq 11 at devic= e 12.1 on pci0 cardbus1: on cbb1 pccard1: <16-bit PCCard bus> on cbb1 isab0: at device 14.0 on pci0 isa0: on isab0 atapci0: port 0x1000-0x100f,0-0x3,0-0x7,0-0x3,0-0x= 7 at device 14.1 on pci0 ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0 ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0 ohci0: mem 0x44080000-0x44080fff irq 11 at = device 14.2 on pci0 usb0: OHCI version 1.0 usb0: SMM does not respond, resetting usb0: on ohci0 usb0: USB revision 1.0 uhub0: (0x0e11) OHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1 uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered eisa0: on motherboard mainboard0: on eisa0 slot 0 pmtimer0 on isa0 atkbdc0: at port 0x64,0x60 on isa0 atkbd0: flags 0x1 irq 1 on atkbdc0 kbd0 at atkbd0 psm0: irq 12 on atkbdc0 psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 fdc0: at port 0x3f7= ,0x3f0-0x3f5 irq 6 drq 2 on isa0 fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 ppc0: at port 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa0 ppc0: Generic chipset (EPP/NIBBLE) in COMPATIBLE mode ppbus0: on ppc0 plip0: on ppbus0 lpt0: on ppbus0 lpt0: Interrupt-driven port ppi0: on ppbus0 sc0: at flags 0x100 on isa0 sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=3D0x300> sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0 sio0: type 16550A sio1: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0x200 sio1: port may not be enabled sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0 sio1: type 16550A vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 unknown: can't assign resources (port) unknown: can't assign resources (irq) unknown: can't assign resources (port) unknown: can't assign resources (port) unknown: can't assign resources (port) unknown: can't assign resources (port) Timecounters tick every 10.000 msec ep0: <3Com Megahertz 3CXEM556 B> at port 0x100-0x10f irq 11 function 0 conf= ig 7 on pccard0 ep0: eeprom failed to come ready. device_probe_and_attach: ep0 attach returned 6 sio4: <3Com Megahertz 3CXEM556 B> at port 0x110-0x117 irq 11 function 1 con= fig 39 on pccard0 sio4: type 16550A with a bogus IIR_TXRDY register sio4: unable to activate interrupt in fast mode - using normal mode ad0: 4108MB [8905/15/63] at ata0-master BIOSDMA Mounting root from ufs:/dev/ad0s2a I did read the ep man page; it did say that my card was "wedged" (which, ac= cording to the Jargon File, means that the card doesn't really work). I als= o used Google to see if other people had problems with the same card, but I= didn't find any solutions at all. What do I need to do in order to get my= PCMCIA card working properly? I am relatively new to FreeBSD, so I don't = really know where to go from here. Thanks in advance. -linguae ---------------------------------------------- An Apple a day keeps the doctor away. Proud supporter of Unix-based operating systems. --=20 _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.as= p?SRC=3Dlycos10 From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 21 01:32:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D222B16A4CF for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 01:32:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AF6F43D1D for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 01:32:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041221013208i92002af5qe>; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 01:32:12 +0000 Message-ID: <41C77D17.8030609@nbritton.org> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 19:32:07 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joaquin Menchaca References: <51428.192.168.1.1.1103328273.squirrel@mail.th-allisons.us> <41C38330.5060409@nbritton.org> <200412171830.32072.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <41C70AFD.9000609@finnovative.net> In-Reply-To: <41C70AFD.9000609@finnovative.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: mark@the-allisons.us cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Administration (Formally Webmin) X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 01:32:14 -0000 Joaquin Menchaca wrote: > Hey can I jump in. :-) I am totally of the faith that one should > learn the command line way. However, there's nothing like a graphical > interface that can bring many concepts together, as well as expose the > user to new concepts. I am a right-side thinker (er or was that left > side), and I understand things visually and abstractually. I started > on Mac OS 6 (System 6), migrated to Windows platforms, and now I am a > big time advocate of open source and love UNIX. :-) > I couldn't have gotten here if it wasn't for the GUIs (some good some > bad) that exposed me to many concepts. Once, I know the concept(s) > and I merely ask, How do I do that on platform X... > > I hope that there can always be the best of both worlds, both a great > UI, but excellent under-the-hood configuration through text config files. > I agree that gui's can be great (phpMyAdmin, for example), but for (UNIX) system administration (what Webmin is mainly for) you REALLY need to learn it the hard way first, heck just to setup Webmin (and others; Samba, Apache, PostgreSQL, MySQL, OpenLDAP, PHP, etc.) you need to have at least basic system administration skill's. * The commands "whatis" and "man" are essential, learn them! * UNIX is like your toolbox, your toolbox may have; screw drivers, hammers, drills, drill bits, pliers, saws, tape measures, wrenchs, ratchets, and sockets, every tool has it's purpose and does it well. You use these tools together to do whatever needs to be done, this is the underlying philosophy of UNIX (as opposed to windows do everything (and nothing well) gizmos), we use "redirectors", "pipes" and scripts to get the hammer to pound the nail in. With the right tools in your toolbox you can do anything! If you need help (and can read) these books WILL help you!!!: Absolute BSD: Author: Michael Lucas, Jordan Hubbard (foreword) Publisher: No Starch ISBN: 1886411743 The Complete FreeBSD, 4th Edition: Author: Greg Lehey Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596005164 Unix Power Tools, 3rd Edition: Author: Shelley Powers, Jerry Peek, Tim O'Reilly, Mike Loukides, and many others Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596003307 UNIX System Administration Handbook, 3rd Edition: Author: Evi Nemeth, Garth Snyder, Scott Seebass, Trent R. Hein Publisher: Prentice Hall PTR ISBN: 0130206016 ------------------------------------------------ These online resouces WILL help as well: The FreeBSD Handbook: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html UNIX Tutorial for Beginners: http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Teaching/Unix/index.html Introduction to Unix (Ohio State University): http://wks.uts.ohio-state.edu/unix_course/unix.html Picking Up Perl (this 60 page mini book is all meat getting right to the point!, if you want to learn Perl (essential to unix administration) read it!!!): http://www.ebb.org/PickingUpPerl/ From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 21 02:03:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB83916A4CE for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 02:03:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 100E643D45 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 02:03:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041221020347i92002al6de>; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 02:03:47 +0000 Message-ID: <41C78481.2030805@nbritton.org> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 20:03:45 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linguae@lycos.com References: <20041221002040.B10B5E5BC7@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> In-Reply-To: <20041221002040.B10B5E5BC7@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3Com Megahertz 3CXEM556 B Multifunction Card Not Working X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 02:03:48 -0000 linguae@lycos.com wrote: >Hello. I have problems trying to get my multifunction 3Com Megahertz 3CXEM556 B Ethernet/56K Modem PCMCIA card working on FreeBSD 5.1 on my Compaq Armada 7400. > Compaq Armada 1750 (PII@366, 320MB, 80GB) owner, nice machine with Xfce 4.2, only thing wrong is ACPI is broken with FreeBSD 5. > The card works perfectly (as far as the modem part, can't test the ethernet portion) on Windows 98 SE. Whenever I try to configure PPP for my card on FreeBSD, when I type the dialing commands (such as at, atdt, etc.), the output on the screen would either be jarbled or won't appear at all. > > Anyways... This is not the right place for this message, please resend this to the freebsd-questions and/or freebsd-net mailing list and they will be happy to help you. The charter for this mailing list is for non-technical newbie support, sorta like a support group, though most people here will be happy to help with "less technical" and basic newbie questions. >Here is my dmesg output: > >Copyright (c) 1992-2003 The FreeBSD Project. >Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 > The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. >FreeBSD 5.1-RELEASE #0: Thu Jun 5 02:55:42 GMT 2003 > root@wv1u.btc.adaptec.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC >Preloaded elf kernel "/boot/kernel/kernel" at 0xc0689000. >Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz >Timecounter "TSC" frequency 266677223 Hz >CPU: Pentium II/Pentium II Xeon/Celeron (266.68-MHz 686-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x652 Stepping = 2 > Features=0x183f9ff >real memory = 67067904 (63 MB) >avail memory = 58134528 (55 MB) >Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled >npx0: on motherboard >npx0: INT 16 interface >pcibios: BIOS version 2.10 >Using $PIR table, 7 entries at 0xc00f0970 >pcib0: at pcibus 0 on motherboard >pci0: on pcib0 >pcib1: at device 0.1 on pci0 >pci1: on pcib1 >pci1: at device 0.0 (no driver attached) >cbb0: mem 0x7fffe000-0x7fffefff irq 11 at device 12.0 on pci0 >cardbus0: on cbb0 >pccard0: <16-bit PCCard bus> on cbb0 >cbb1: mem 0x7ffff000-0x7fffffff irq 11 at device 12.1 on pci0 >cardbus1: on cbb1 >pccard1: <16-bit PCCard bus> on cbb1 >isab0: at device 14.0 on pci0 >isa0: on isab0 >atapci0: port 0x1000-0x100f,0-0x3,0-0x7,0-0x3,0-0x7 at device 14.1 on pci0 >ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0 >ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0 >ohci0: mem 0x44080000-0x44080fff irq 11 at device 14.2 on pci0 >usb0: OHCI version 1.0 >usb0: SMM does not respond, resetting >usb0: on ohci0 >usb0: USB revision 1.0 >uhub0: (0x0e11) OHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1 >uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered >eisa0: on motherboard >mainboard0: on eisa0 slot 0 >pmtimer0 on isa0 >atkbdc0: at port 0x64,0x60 on isa0 >atkbd0: flags 0x1 irq 1 on atkbdc0 >kbd0 at atkbd0 >psm0: irq 12 on atkbdc0 >psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 >fdc0: at port 0x3f7,0x3f0-0x3f5 irq 6 drq 2 on isa0 >fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold >fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 >ppc0: at port 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa0 >ppc0: Generic chipset (EPP/NIBBLE) in COMPATIBLE mode >ppbus0: on ppc0 >plip0: on ppbus0 >lpt0: on ppbus0 >lpt0: Interrupt-driven port >ppi0: on ppbus0 >sc0: at flags 0x100 on isa0 >sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> >sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0 >sio0: type 16550A >sio1: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0x200 >sio1: port may not be enabled >sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0 >sio1: type 16550A >vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 >unknown: can't assign resources (port) >unknown: can't assign resources (irq) >unknown: can't assign resources (port) >unknown: can't assign resources (port) >unknown: can't assign resources (port) >unknown: can't assign resources (port) >Timecounters tick every 10.000 msec >ep0: <3Com Megahertz 3CXEM556 B> at port 0x100-0x10f irq 11 function 0 config 7 on pccard0 >ep0: eeprom failed to come ready. >device_probe_and_attach: ep0 attach returned 6 >sio4: <3Com Megahertz 3CXEM556 B> at port 0x110-0x117 irq 11 function 1 config 39 on pccard0 >sio4: type 16550A with a bogus IIR_TXRDY register >sio4: unable to activate interrupt in fast mode - using normal mode >ad0: 4108MB [8905/15/63] at ata0-master BIOSDMA >Mounting root from ufs:/dev/ad0s2a > > >I did read the ep man page; it did say that my card was "wedged" (which, according to the Jargon File, means that the card doesn't really work). I also used Google to see if other people had problems with the same card, but I didn't find any solutions at all. What do I need to do in order to get my PCMCIA card working properly? I am relatively new to FreeBSD, so I don't really know where to go from here. Thanks in advance. > >-linguae > >---------------------------------------------- >An Apple a day keeps the doctor away. >Proud supporter of Unix-based operating systems. > > > From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 21 16:28:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE0EA16A4CE for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:28:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ptb-relay01.plus.net (ptb-relay01.plus.net [212.159.14.212]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5923543D1D for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:28:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ml-freebsd-newbies@codepad.net) Received: from [80.229.159.44] (helo=[192.168.0.4]) by ptb-relay01.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1Cgmru-000Mfl-Rq for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:28:14 +0000 From: Xian To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:28:14 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412211628.14213.ml-freebsd-newbies@codepad.net> Subject: bug in sound driver X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:28:17 -0000 I had a problem with Ogle (my DVD player) and it turned out to be a problem= =20 with the sound driver I'm using. I found this email in an archive that lead= =20 me to the workaround: Wed Mar 24 2004, John Polstra wrote: > On 24-Mar-2004 Bj|rn Englund wrote: >=20 > > Try setting the environment variable OGLE_OSS_RESET_BUG and then run > > ogle and see if you still have the problem or if it works. >=20 > Wow, that fixes it! =A0I never would have guessed that this problem had > anything to do with audio. >=20 > I'm a FreeBSD committer and might be able to help get our driver > fixed. =A0Do you know whether this particular sound chip works with Ogle > under Linux (without the OGLE_OSS_RESET_BUG work-around)? =A0If it does, > then maybe I can see what the Linux driver is doing differently when > it resets the chip. >=20 No I don't know if this chip works in linux. But this is a common problem that pops up from time to time in different audio drivers, nothing chip/hw specific. I suspect that driver writers forget that the device should "reset"/be able= to accept new format settings after a=20 SNDCTL_DSP_SYNC or SNDCTL_DSP_RESET ioctl, and not just after a new open of the audio device. /Bj|rn Should I do anything like file a bug report? I don't know what these guys h= ave=20 done. btw on my system `uname -a` says =46reeBSD hercules.codepad.net 5.3-RELEASE-p2 FreeBSD 5.3-RELEASE-p2 #3: Mo= n Dec=20 20 17:20:40 GMT 2004 =20 root@hercules.codepad.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/HERCULES i386 =2D-=20 /Xian "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reas= on=20 for existing." Albert Einstein From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 06:19:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D72416A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 06:19:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from safeco.hostingservice.net (safeco.hostingservice.net [209.150.128.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E06FB43D45 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 06:19:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from adam@jamradar.com) Received: from PANASONIULSWMR (c-67-176-199-73.client.comcast.net [67.176.199.73])iBM6JvU09654 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:19:57 -0600 Message-ID: <006b01c4e7ee$419764d0$0200a8c0@PANASONIULSWMR> From: "Adam" To: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:19:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: What do these PHP ports mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 06:19:58 -0000 I'm porting PHP, I looked at the 5 different PHP 5.0.3 version = descriptions on http://www.freebsd.org/ports/www.html they all have the = same long description and different "Requires" What are the differences in these? php5-5.0.3_1=20 php5-cgi-5.0.3_1=20 php5-mnogosearch-5.0.3_1=20 php5-session-5.0.3_1=20 php5-tidy-5.0.3_1 From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 08:53:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F05016A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:53:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ptb-relay03.plus.net (ptb-relay03.plus.net [212.159.14.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E958143D41 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:53:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ml-freebsd-newbies@codepad.net) Received: from [80.229.159.44] (helo=[192.168.0.4]) by ptb-relay03.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1Ch2FQ-000ElV-J3 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:53:32 +0000 From: Xian To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:53:31 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <006b01c4e7ee$419764d0$0200a8c0@PANASONIULSWMR> In-Reply-To: <006b01c4e7ee$419764d0$0200a8c0@PANASONIULSWMR> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412220853.31271.ml-freebsd-newbies@codepad.net> Subject: Re: What do these PHP ports mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:53:36 -0000 On Wednesday 22 December 2004 06:19, Adam wrote: > I'm porting PHP, I looked at the 5 different PHP 5.0.3 version descriptions > on http://www.freebsd.org/ports/www.html they all have the same long > description and different "Requires" > > What are the differences in these? > php5-5.0.3_1 > php5-cgi-5.0.3_1 > php5-mnogosearch-5.0.3_1 > php5-session-5.0.3_1 > php5-tidy-5.0.3_1 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" I think php5 is the PHP, and the others are modules for it. I installed Apache & PHP from the source code not from ports so I'm not 100% sure. -- /Xian "Hang in there, retirement is only thirty years away!" unknown author From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 09:32:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18B8116A4FF for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:32:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-08.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 84DB543D49 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:32:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from outsidefactor@iinet.net.au) Received: (qmail 22712 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 09:32:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tyr) (203.217.67.1) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 09:32:35 -0000 From: "Chris Martin" To: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:31:42 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcToCQti6QaiJ99LTk+1VlAD5gbTKg== Message-Id: <20041222093237.84DB543D49@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Subject: Problem resolution techniques X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:32:39 -0000 Hi, I was just looking for some general advice on tracking down issues with compiled software. I am trying to put together a set guidelines for people in my organisation and our partners over escalation and to help establish when issues are not going to be resolved in house in an efficient amount of time. For example, application 'A' is built from ports. It compiles and installs properly, but core dumps on start. Basic resolution steps could be: 1) uninstall, re-download the distfiles and compile again 2) repeat step 1 after checking/removing any make.conf settings that very from those included in generic 3) check an dependant libraries or applications by testing them with other applications What is a good next step, and at which point do we bug the questions mailing list or the code maintainers? Is there a way for non-developers to get useful information about the dump themselves, saving them bothering the developers with yet another "it don't work, here are my system settings and installed apps, please help" e-mails? Thanks, Chris Martin From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 16:40:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E3AA16A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:40:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF97F43D39 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:40:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from surricani@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 55so83wri for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:40:48 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=oy0+XqpRxONYMeuYrH9Ez2WdDv4jUCy+CD9J+RXtAiQlKyvA4YBIqN/6hjwe/o39V5u2bcdBIJcsxakIm/Uskr/E9xv63Q09tV0KUfH3MbwyZfcvP7YAofI1UOj138lREkDOI/vUE1zWL4mlY3xSyDLgFL7Ox9nF+otBwTBRMQQ= Received: by 10.54.45.71 with SMTP id s71mr8995wrs; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:40:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.2.66 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:40:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4591fd91041222084071ae57b4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:40:48 +0100 From: "Dott. Surricani" To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Problem with IPFILTER X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Dott. Surricani" List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:40:52 -0000 Hello everybody. I've succesfully set up an Inclusive Firewall for my small Lan, how explained in Chapter 24 of the Handbook, with IPFILTER and ipnat (Either with kld modules). I've included in rc.conf the lines neeeded and i've written custom ipf.rules and ipnat.rules... It's super, and work great, but I've got a problem/question: each time I restart the server the rules are cleared and It leave all packets enter and exit an I have to type in the shell ipf -Fa -f /etc/ipf.rules and ipnat -CF -f /etc/ipnat.rules It's very boring.... What I can do to automate this task? Thanks all very much!!!! From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 19:28:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F6016A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:28:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7EBC43D46 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:28:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from aentgood@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so266wri for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:28:15 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=oWtSkJ8HESM9bJ+P2SnOHMw4ihnX/YG/CN0vnIH6Q2/duDFg9fMi61OpLFrV2Ve3sK6+pvlx45rUu3lVOszKON4KjRH/rJARydZtVUyt9gELpps76I1jvRqP0YKBdao8fOgFB9V0lm2kuR3AVJdeFhy3Co487xRQLYIF04PjQ+M= Received: by 10.54.47.60 with SMTP id u60mr69211wru; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:28:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.27.45 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:28:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <7603e5d80412221128541899cf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:28:14 +0100 From: Wouter van Rooij To: Chris Martin , freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20041222093237.84DB543D49@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041222093237.84DB543D49@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: Problem resolution techniques X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Wouter van Rooij List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:28:16 -0000 > Hi, > > I was just looking for some general advice on tracking down issues with > compiled software. I am trying to put together a set guidelines for people > in my organisation and our partners over escalation and to help establish > when issues are not going to be resolved in house in an efficient amount of > time. > > For example, application 'A' is built from ports. It compiles and installs > properly, but core dumps on start. Basic resolution steps could be: > > 1) uninstall, re-download the distfiles and compile again > 2) repeat step 1 after checking/removing any make.conf settings that very > from those included in generic > 3) check an dependant libraries or applications by testing them with other > applications > > What is a good next step, and at which point do we bug the questions mailing > list or the code maintainers? Is there a way for non-developers to get > useful information about the dump themselves, saving them bothering the > developers with yet another "it don't work, here are my system settings and > installed apps, please help" e-mails? You can run as root /stand/sysinstall. Then go to the menu configure,packages. Look for the program you are trying to install. If it's there it goes more quickly and it goes almost always good. Greetings and merry christmas to all of you Wouter van Rooij From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 21:09:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF1116A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:09:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-07.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8539F43D31 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:09:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from outsidefactor@iinet.net.au) Received: (qmail 26659 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 21:09:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tyr) (203.217.67.1) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 21:09:43 -0000 From: "Chris Martin" To: "'Wouter van Rooij'" , Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:08:38 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <7603e5d80412221128541899cf@mail.gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcToXG5lu/TAYaUeTUmWGwhSKulfPgADOWPA Message-Id: <20041222210944.8539F43D31@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Subject: RE: Problem resolution techniques X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:09:46 -0000 > You can run as root /stand/sysinstall. Then go to the menu > configure,packages. Look for the program you are trying to install. If > it's there it goes more quickly and it goes almost always good. I have a specific case right now where both the package and ort built item core dump on 5.3 (can't test with 4.10 as I don't have any spare machines). What then? Also, if you use CVSUP and build world and build kernel and you end up with a OS version like FreeBSD 5.3-RELEASE-p2 #0, the sysinstall method doesn't work, as it can't find a file set for your release on any server. I was more following Sue Blake's FAK for newbies and asking for more self help techniques than a very specific resolution, just looking for a few "next steps" to get a better picture of what caused the core dump, to find clues that may lead to a resolution. Anyone have any advice? From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 21:18:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5065E16A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:18:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freeode.co.uk (freeode.co.uk [213.162.123.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DC0343D5A for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:18:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sub01@freeode.co.uk) Received: from lexx (lexx.freeode.co.uk [10.253.253.2]) by mail.freeode.co.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBMLIrCZ034659; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:18:53 GMT (envelope-from sub01@freeode.co.uk) From: John Murphy To: "Dott. Surricani" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:18:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4591fd91041222084071ae57b4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4591fd91041222084071ae57b4@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problem with IPFILTER X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: sub01@freeode.co.uk List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:18:58 -0000 "Dott. Surricani" wrote: >each time I restart the server the rules are cleared and It leave all >packets enter and exit >an I have to type in the shell > >ipf -Fa -f /etc/ipf.rules and >ipnat -CF -f /etc/ipnat.rules > >It's very boring.... > >What I can do to automate this task? It's simply a matter of having lines in /etc/rc.conf to indicate where the rules are. I have a similar setup on my gateway and the relevant lines look like this: ipfilter_enable="YES" ipfilter_program="/sbin/ipf" ipfilter_rules="/etc/ipf.rules" ipfilter_flags="" ipnat_enable="YES" ipnat_program="/sbin/ipnat" ipnat_rules="/etc/ipnat.rules" ipnat_flags="" >Thanks all very much!!!! You're welcome but questions (even newbie ones) of a technical nature should be asked over at questions@freebsd.org. -- John. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 21:40:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8262D16A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:40:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freeode.co.uk (freeode.co.uk [213.162.123.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF12143D1F for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:40:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sub01@freeode.co.uk) Received: from lexx (lexx.freeode.co.uk [10.253.253.2]) by mail.freeode.co.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBMLe3CZ034709; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:40:03 GMT (envelope-from sub01@freeode.co.uk) From: John Murphy To: "Chris Martin" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:40:03 +0000 Message-ID: <0tpjs090hg536lkjus9vrkbsn8ikjduk0j@4ax.com> References: <20041222093237.84DB543D49@mx1.FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20041222093237.84DB543D49@mx1.FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problem resolution techniques X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: sub01@freeode.co.uk List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:40:05 -0000 "Chris Martin" wrote: >Hi, > >I was just looking for some general advice on tracking down issues with >compiled software. I am trying to put together a set guidelines for people >in my organisation and our partners over escalation and to help establish >when issues are not going to be resolved in house in an efficient amount of >time. > >For example, application 'A' is built from ports. It compiles and installs >properly, but core dumps on start. Basic resolution steps could be: > >1) uninstall, re-download the distfiles and compile again >2) repeat step 1 after checking/removing any make.conf settings that very >from those included in generic >3) check an dependant libraries or applications by testing them with other >applications You should probably re-cvsup the ports at some point to ensure that the problem wasn't a temporary glitch which has since been fixed. >What is a good next step, and at which point do we bug the questions mailing >list or the code maintainers? Is there a way for non-developers to get >useful information about the dump themselves, saving them bothering the >developers with yet another "it don't work, here are my system settings and >installed apps, please help" e-mails? There is a FAQ entry which you may find useful: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/advanced.html#KERNEL-PANIC-TROUBLESHOOTING -- HTH, John. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 21:48:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71C7F16A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:48:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (mail-07.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 593FD43D4C for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:48:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from outsidefactor@iinet.net.au) Received: (qmail 8214 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 21:48:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tyr) (203.217.67.1) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 21:48:12 -0000 From: "Chris Martin" To: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:47:06 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <0tpjs090hg536lkjus9vrkbsn8ikjduk0j@4ax.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcTobvGPuJIxYL4LQEmCXOPfALJCeAAAKROw Message-Id: <20041222214839.593FD43D4C@mx1.FreeBSD.org> cc: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Problem resolution techniques X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:48:40 -0000 > > You should probably re-cvsup the ports at some point to ensure that the > problem wasn't a temporary glitch which has since been fixed. We are pretty on the money about keeping ports CVSUP'd. > >What is a good next step, and at which point do we bug the questions > mailing > >list or the code maintainers? Is there a way for non-developers to get > >useful information about the dump themselves, saving them bothering the > >developers with yet another "it don't work, here are my system settings > and > >installed apps, please help" e-mails? > > There is a FAQ entry which you may find useful: > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/advanced.html#KERNEL- > PANIC-TROUBLESHOOTING I will check it out. Thanks for the first step! From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 06:37:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63FFA16A512; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 06:37:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2FF043D3F; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 06:37:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3C08985605; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:31 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:31 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="B9sQK8H3qcae8SLi" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: Sue Blake cc: FreeBSD Core Team Subject: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 06:37:35 -0000 --B9sQK8H3qcae8SLi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Most (all?) of the traffic on -newbies lately has been of technical nature. That's not surprising, but there are a number of reasons why it's not a good idea: 1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD. Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this list. Support questions should be sent to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. Technical questions should be sent to freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org. (NOT to the newbies list please) Full info and FAK http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ Please read the info and FAK. They contain important information regarding the purpose and use of this mailing list. 2. There's already a mailing list for technical questions, as mentioned above: FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.org. 3. Most of the experienced people on the FreeBSD-questions list don't read -newbies. If they do, they've been told not to answer technical questions there. The result: ask a question on -newbies and you're less likely to get an answer. If you do get an answer, it's less likely to be correct. In either case, people on the -questions mailing list are not going to see the answer, so even if the answer is correct, it's of less use to the community at large. I'd suggest that we slowly disband this list (over a period of, say, two weeks). There are plenty of other FreeBSD mailing lists, and it's up to you to join them. If you're interested in technical issues, -questions is the obvious one to join. Comments? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --B9sQK8H3qcae8SLi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBymerIubykFB6QiMRAsNiAJ9ZrILxEeGXStaEuSjPjg3+erBY+ACcDm25 2qoN72o7mRpzq+IqmCx3BIc= =1du1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --B9sQK8H3qcae8SLi-- From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 09:03:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C8116A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:03:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pastinakel.tue.nl (pastinakel.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B4643D2F for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:03:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freeknossin@tiscali.nl) Received: by pastinakel.tue.nl (Postfix, from userid 40) id 02B7714BE9D; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:03:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from pcwin502 (dyn414.win.tue.nl [131.155.70.117]) by pastinakel.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id D648314BDC2 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:03:39 +0100 (CET) From: "Freek Nossin" To: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:03:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcTouf3tWbBCQDddSuSdRAOZNUeSMAAErzwg Message-Id: <20041223090339.D648314BDC2@pastinakel.tue.nl> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64 (2004-01-11) on pastinakel.tue.nl X-Spam-DCC: dmv.com: pastinakel.tue.nl 1181; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.9 required=6.3 tests=BAYES_00,MSGID_FROM_MTA_SHORT autolearn=no version=2.64 X-Spam-Level: Subject: RE: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:03:45 -0000 And what about the questions that DO belong here? The -questions list already has a lot of typical topics that come up every so often (and that probably belong here). When this list closes down - of which the content is intended to be the type of questions that are asked very often - the number of real "technical" questions in the -questions list will likely be pushed to the background by newbie questions (where do I download the FreeBSD cd's...). -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Greg 'groggy' Lehey Sent: donderdag 23 december 2004 7:38 To: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org Cc: Sue Blake; FreeBSD Core Team Subject: Time to shut down this list? Most (all?) of the traffic on -newbies lately has been of technical nature. That's not surprising, but there are a number of reasons why it's not a good idea: 1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD. Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this list. Support questions should be sent to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. Technical questions should be sent to freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org. (NOT to the newbies list please) Full info and FAK http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ Please read the info and FAK. They contain important information regarding the purpose and use of this mailing list. 2. There's already a mailing list for technical questions, as mentioned above: FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.org. 3. Most of the experienced people on the FreeBSD-questions list don't read -newbies. If they do, they've been told not to answer technical questions there. The result: ask a question on -newbies and you're less likely to get an answer. If you do get an answer, it's less likely to be correct. In either case, people on the -questions mailing list are not going to see the answer, so even if the answer is correct, it's of less use to the community at large. I'd suggest that we slowly disband this list (over a period of, say, two weeks). There are plenty of other FreeBSD mailing lists, and it's up to you to join them. If you're interested in technical issues, -questions is the obvious one to join. Comments? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 09:16:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED1FF16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:16:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78FF443D54; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:16:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041223091614i92002abu2e>; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:16:16 +0000 Message-ID: <41CA8CDB.5070007@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:16:11 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Sue Blake cc: FreeBSD Core Team cc: FreeBSD-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:16:17 -0000 Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: > > This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD. > Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this > list. > One word, oxymoron. How can you not get technical about something that is technical? From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 09:30:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2BD16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:30:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp-vbr8.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr8.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB61443D49; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:30:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [213.84.32.253]) by smtp-vbr8.xs4all.nl (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBN9U1r1096288; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:30:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.13.1/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBN9U1r6053942; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:30:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBN9U1ED053941; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:30:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wb) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:30:01 +0100 From: Wilko Bulte To: Nikolas Britton Message-ID: <20041223093001.GA53923@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <41CA8CDB.5070007@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41CA8CDB.5070007@nbritton.org> X-OS: FreeBSD 4.11-PRERELEASE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey cc: Sue Blake cc: FreeBSD Core Team cc: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:30:13 -0000 On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 03:16:11AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote.. > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > >1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: > > > > This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD. > > Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this > > list. > > > One word, oxymoron. > > How can you not get technical about something that is technical? Heheh... go and work in customer support for some time and I guarantee you you will understand that this is indeed possible. -- Wilko Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 09:44:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A42416A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:44:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.200]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D31443D3F for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:44:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from xinizul@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 71so49543wra for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:44:38 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=rPz7Sy03wiDjoumTwYlaS3wiX6NnYGgI1lTV/bT1JG1/jh5qaPLcXYc2kmOV2A8KJ7PFrH9Ab/HAIDbuQtk/9lgcFMi1xIYvQmuoOy0WDyJrTBm43Y4rybMQfu1rfRcHqkjxQ1P7viTIdm/q2Sew7GtAxe944LCxynT6o0nCqfs= Received: by 10.54.35.63 with SMTP id i63mr339249wri; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.22.20 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:44:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4d073056041223014478da456e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:44:38 +0100 From: Xinizul Xinizul To: FreeBSD-newbies@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20041223093001.GA53923@freebie.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <41CA8CDB.5070007@nbritton.org> <20041223093001.GA53923@freebie.xs4all.nl> Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Xinizul Xinizul List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:44:39 -0000 Hello all. I'd see this list as a repository for newbies -like me- where can share their new discoveries with their FreeBSD System -discoveries that could help other newbies- The pity is that no too much people use to do it. Regards and Merry Christmas, Xinizul On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:30:01 +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote: > On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 03:16:11AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote.. > > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > > >1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: > > > > > > This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD. > > > Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this > > > list. > > > > > One word, oxymoron. > > > > How can you not get technical about something that is technical? > > Heheh... go and work in customer support for some time and I guarantee > you you will understand that this is indeed possible. > > -- > Wilko Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 10:19:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05B5F16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:19:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp1.pacifier.net (smtp1.pacifier.net [64.255.237.171]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6F2F43D58; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:19:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from chuckoplaptop (unknown [210.254.109.116]) by smtp1.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB13C70468; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:19:45 -0800 (PST) From: "Charles Oppermann" To: "'Greg 'groggy' Lehey'" , Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:19:44 -0800 Organization: Copper Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.1289 Thread-Index: AcToufpZNuC9446MRRSLFzX3mnLijgAHAZKw Message-Id: <20041223101945.CB13C70468@smtp1.pacifier.net> cc: 'Sue Blake' cc: 'FreeBSD Core Team' Subject: RE: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:19:48 -0000 >>1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: I've always thought this was silly. All throughout the internet "newbies" implies beginner. A newbie mailing list regarding an operating system is naturally going to have people posting technical questions. Even if the newbie is aware of the technical questions mailing list, they may make the choice to post to freebsd-newbies because of intimidation. I understand the purpose of the list is "a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD" to "share [their] experiences with others" and I think that's wonderful. To accomplish that goal then, why not simply have a "freebsd-experience" mailing list? Personally, I think newbies (myself included) are intimidated by the freebsd-questions list and feel they will be more welcomed in a newbies list. For that reason, I think the freebsd-newbies list should stick around and have it's charter changed to allow technical discussions - with a caveat that they be moved to another list if not newbie oriented. Regardless of what's done, something has to change simply because so many people make the mistake of not reading or abiding my the current charter. Currently newbie's are chastised at the very time they feel most intimated. Instead, they should be welcomed, encouraged and nurtured. I'm glad the FreeBSD organization is discussing this, because it's been painful for me to watch people basically get yelled at for posting. Might not seem like yelling to someone who subscribes to a dozen or more lists and has tons of experience, but I'm sure the wet-behind-the-ears newbie has a different impression of what is likely their first experience with the FreeBSD community. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 10:31:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D30C216A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:31:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 313C243D31; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:31:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041223103122i92002anbfe>; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:31:23 +0000 Message-ID: <41CA9E77.9050304@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 04:31:19 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wilko Bulte References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <41CA8CDB.5070007@nbritton.org> <20041223093001.GA53923@freebie.xs4all.nl> In-Reply-To: <20041223093001.GA53923@freebie.xs4all.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey cc: Sue Blake cc: FreeBSD Core Team cc: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:31:25 -0000 Wilko Bulte wrote: >On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 03:16:11AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote.. > > >>Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> >> >> >>>1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: >>> >>> This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD. >>> Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this >>> list. >>> >>> >>> >>One word, oxymoron. >> >>How can you not get technical about something that is technical? >> >> > >Heheh... go and work in customer support for some time and I guarantee >you you will understand that this is indeed possible. > > NEVER!!!! I cannot deal with users (need a translator), I'm a back office guy that likes to work alone! (Bench Tech / Field Tech / level III support / Sys,Net Admin / Net Eng, etc.), The first job I ever had was as a bench tech @18, then went to tech school for network engineering and am now going back to school for a BSCE (Computer Engneering) and after that a Masters. I have always been a hardware guy (though I like learning the in's and out's of OS's, this led me to DOS 5 - 8, Win 3.x, Win9x/ME, NT3.1 - 5.1, OS/2, BeOS (dam you palm or killing it), Linux, and finally FreeBSD (which I like the most, most cohesive and stable OS I have ever seen, oh, and I love Perl! :-)). Once I tried user support and I had a meltdown, got fired after two weeks. My Myers-Briggs explains it all: I{S,N}TP, with extreme Introversion. http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/psychology/alt.psychology.personality/profiles/istp.html http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/psychology/alt.psychology.personality/profiles/intp.html From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 10:55:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC46016A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:55:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50B6743D55; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:55:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041223105532i92002ab7fe>; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:55:33 +0000 Message-ID: <41CAA420.1080509@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 04:55:28 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Oppermann References: <20041223101945.CB13C70468@smtp1.pacifier.net> In-Reply-To: <20041223101945.CB13C70468@smtp1.pacifier.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: 'Greg 'groggy' Lehey' cc: 'Sue Blake' cc: 'FreeBSD Core Team' cc: FreeBSD-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:55:34 -0000 Charles Oppermann wrote: >>>1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: >>> >>> > >I've always thought this was silly. All throughout the internet "newbies" >implies beginner. A newbie mailing list regarding an operating system is >naturally going to have people posting technical questions. Even if the >newbie is aware of the technical questions mailing list, they may make the >choice to post to freebsd-newbies because of intimidation. > >I understand the purpose of the list is "a gathering place for people new to >FreeBSD" to "share [their] experiences with others" and I think that's >wonderful. > >To accomplish that goal then, why not simply have a "freebsd-experience" >mailing list? > >Personally, I think newbies (myself included) are intimidated by the >freebsd-questions list and feel they will be more welcomed in a newbies >list. For that reason, I think the freebsd-newbies list should stick around >and have it's charter changed to allow technical discussions - with a caveat >that they be moved to another list if not newbie oriented. > >Regardless of what's done, something has to change simply because so many >people make the mistake of not reading or abiding my the current charter. >Currently newbie's are chastised at the very time they feel most intimated. >Instead, they should be welcomed, encouraged and nurtured. > >I'm glad the FreeBSD organization is discussing this, because it's been >painful for me to watch people basically get yelled at for posting. Might >not seem like yelling to someone who subscribes to a dozen or more lists and >has tons of experience, but I'm sure the wet-behind-the-ears newbie has a >different impression of what is likely their first experience with the >FreeBSD community. > > > ditto!, and this is why I do help them if they post here as I cannot sit here with my thumbs up my ass telling them I can't help them when I know I can. also questions is a high volume list already, do you really want people asking how to mount there CDs and how to use tar there? The message you are sending to the newbies that post here is that your stuck up and don't care about them, this is never a good thing. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 11:28:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D714116A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:28:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ptb-relay01.plus.net (ptb-relay01.plus.net [212.159.14.212]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 264D343D5C for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:28:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ml-freebsd-newbies@codepad.net) Received: from [80.229.159.44] (helo=[192.168.0.4]) by ptb-relay01.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1ChR8l-000MxZ-DR for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:28:19 +0000 From: Xian To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:28:18 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <20041223101945.CB13C70468@smtp1.pacifier.net> In-Reply-To: <20041223101945.CB13C70468@smtp1.pacifier.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412231128.18781.ml-freebsd-newbies@codepad.net> Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:28:21 -0000 On Thursday 23 December 2004 10:19, Charles Oppermann wrote: > >>1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: > > I've always thought this was silly. All throughout the internet "newbies" > implies beginner. A newbie mailing list regarding an operating system is > naturally going to have people posting technical questions. Even if the > newbie is aware of the technical questions mailing list, they may make the > choice to post to freebsd-newbies because of intimidation. > > I understand the purpose of the list is "a gathering place for people new > to FreeBSD" to "share [their] experiences with others" and I think that's > wonderful. > > To accomplish that goal then, why not simply have a "freebsd-experience" > mailing list? > > Personally, I think newbies (myself included) are intimidated by the > freebsd-questions list and feel they will be more welcomed in a newbies > list. For that reason, I think the freebsd-newbies list should stick > around and have it's charter changed to allow technical discussions - with > a caveat that they be moved to another list if not newbie oriented. > > Regardless of what's done, something has to change simply because so many > people make the mistake of not reading or abiding my the current charter. > Currently newbie's are chastised at the very time they feel most intimated. > Instead, they should be welcomed, encouraged and nurtured. > > I'm glad the FreeBSD organization is discussing this, because it's been > painful for me to watch people basically get yelled at for posting. Might > not seem like yelling to someone who subscribes to a dozen or more lists > and has tons of experience, but I'm sure the wet-behind-the-ears newbie has > a different impression of what is likely their first experience with the > FreeBSD community. I originally signed up to -questions and -newbies, but was overwhelmed by the volume of mail on -questions and unsubscribed after a few days. I feel much more comfortable with -newbies, especially if I want to ask a very basic question because I know we have all been there at some point. I think it is better to tell some people that they should be asking on -questions than close -newbies as really new people may feel intimidated and not ask the very basic questions that this list is for. I remember vividly when I had just installed FreeBSD, it asked for my lo gin so I gave it my user name. Then it asked for a password so I gave it that. But what sort of a question was '%'? I was most worried when 'help' didn't work. I asked this list and anyone who would listen many basic questions that I was wouldn't dared have asked on -questions. -- /Xian "Security is not the absence of danger, but the presence of God, no matter what the danger" Anon From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 12:16:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980D116A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:16:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ptb-relay01.plus.net (ptb-relay01.plus.net [212.159.14.212]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EAB543D45 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:16:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ml-freebsd-newbies@codepad.net) Received: from [80.229.159.44] (helo=[192.168.0.4]) by ptb-relay01.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1ChRtV-000Ky2-BM for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:16:37 +0000 From: Xian To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <20041223101945.CB13C70468@smtp1.pacifier.net> In-Reply-To: <20041223101945.CB13C70468@smtp1.pacifier.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:16:36 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200412231216.36734.ml-freebsd-newbies@codepad.net> Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:16:39 -0000 On Thursday 23 December 2004 10:19, Charles Oppermann wrote: > >>1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: > > I've always thought this was silly. All throughout the internet "newbies" > implies beginner. A newbie mailing list regarding an operating system is > naturally going to have people posting technical questions. Even if the > newbie is aware of the technical questions mailing list, they may make the > choice to post to freebsd-newbies because of intimidation. > > I understand the purpose of the list is "a gathering place for people new > to FreeBSD" to "share [their] experiences with others" and I think that's > wonderful. > > To accomplish that goal then, why not simply have a "freebsd-experience" > mailing list? > > Personally, I think newbies (myself included) are intimidated by the > freebsd-questions list and feel they will be more welcomed in a newbies > list. For that reason, I think the freebsd-newbies list should stick > around and have it's charter changed to allow technical discussions - with > a caveat that they be moved to another list if not newbie oriented. > > Regardless of what's done, something has to change simply because so many > people make the mistake of not reading or abiding my the current charter. > Currently newbie's are chastised at the very time they feel most intimated. > Instead, they should be welcomed, encouraged and nurtured. > > I'm glad the FreeBSD organization is discussing this, because it's been > painful for me to watch people basically get yelled at for posting. Might > not seem like yelling to someone who subscribes to a dozen or more lists > and has tons of experience, but I'm sure the wet-behind-the-ears newbie has > a different impression of what is likely their first experience with the > FreeBSD community. I originally signed up to -questions and -newbies, but was overwhelmed by the volume of mail on -questions and unsubscribed after a few days. I feel much more comfortable with -newbies, especially if I want to ask a very basic question because I know we have all been there at some point. I think it is better to tell some people that they should be asking on -questions than close -newbies as really new people may feel intimidated and not ask the very basic questions that this list is for. I remember vividly when I had just installed FreeBSD, it asked for my lo gin so I gave it my user name. Then it asked for a password so I gave it that. But what sort of a question was '%'? I was most worried when 'help' didn't work. I asked this list and anyone who would listen many basic questions that I was wouldn't dared have asked on -questions. -- /Xian "Security is not the absence of danger, but the presence of God, no matter what the danger" Anon From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 12:35:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58E616A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:35:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pop-a065c28.pas.sa.earthlink.net (pop-a065c28.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.121.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CE2043D2D; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:35:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from eric@savaka.com) Received: from dialup-4.152.69.189.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.152.69.189]) by pop-a065c28.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1ChSBn-0000v3-00; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 04:35:32 -0800 Message-ID: <41CABC20.9090203@savaka.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:37:52 -0500 From: Eric User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: FreeBSD Core Team Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:35:32 -0000 How about rename this list "Newbie Questions" and just go on trust that the people asking the questions are really newbies. Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >Most (all?) of the traffic on -newbies lately has been of technical >nature. That's not surprising, but there are a number of reasons why >it's not a good idea: > >1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: > > This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD. > Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this > list. > > Support questions should be sent to > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. Technical questions should be > sent to freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org. (NOT to the newbies list > please) > > Full info and FAK http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ > > Please read the info and FAK. They contain important information > regarding the purpose and use of this mailing list. > >2. There's already a mailing list for technical questions, as > mentioned above: FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.org. > >3. Most of the experienced people on the FreeBSD-questions list don't > read -newbies. If they do, they've been told not to answer > technical questions there. > >The result: ask a question on -newbies and you're less likely to get >an answer. If you do get an answer, it's less likely to be correct. >In either case, people on the -questions mailing list are not going to >see the answer, so even if the answer is correct, it's of less use to >the community at large. > >I'd suggest that we slowly disband this list (over a period of, say, >two weeks). There are plenty of other FreeBSD mailing lists, and it's >up to you to join them. If you're interested in technical issues, >-questions is the obvious one to join. > >Comments? >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > > From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 15:58:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABAA16A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:58:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ECF143D53 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:58:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from xinizul@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 71so109346wri for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:58:49 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=d+L4Xpoa8cpiwQwrL9F4dRBT4dbdm7coc71BwA9T+TNKm/AHPBPFI8qeR8adp/o8GYiYCqQoBbGUuQWUwmnrvkky7Zsy26Er13xfHxNQ0LSEXXLBw/ZLyzWOS1uEByiXpLxhW6kZXApdC30wWRsP+4ND1+UyLAnCoyFvxSuMI2E= Received: by 10.54.10.62 with SMTP id 62mr85303wrj; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:58:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.22.20 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:58:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4d07305604122307583590297b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:58:49 +0100 From: Xinizul Xinizul To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: 3ddesk X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Xinizul Xinizul List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:58:50 -0000 Hello all. This is a tool everyone should test. It is really really nice. Cheers, Xinizul From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 15:59:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7BBD16A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:59:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pop-a065c05.pas.sa.earthlink.net (pop-a065c05.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.121.183]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7457E43D4C for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:59:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mark@the-allisons.us) Received: from user-12hc4jb.cable.mindspring.com ([69.22.18.107] helo=the-allisons.us) by pop-a065c05.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1ChVNW-0005Is-00 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:59:50 -0800 Received: (qmail 15781 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2004 15:59:28 -0000 X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAv and Amavis-ng on the-allisons.us Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.2]) (192.168.1.2) by mail.the-allisons.us (192.168.1.5) with ESMTP; 23 Dec 2004 15:59:26 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:59:25 -0600 From: Mark Allison To: Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on mail.the-allisons.us X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=2.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL autolearn=ham version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Level: Subject: Webmin X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:59:50 -0000 I've received a lot of e-mail, re my webmin question. Unfortunately, must of the responses have been opinions about learning how to use the systems tools, rather them the GUI. I understand and use most of those tools already and installed Webmin to make those functions easier (in most cases)= . What I actually needed and never received was information about how to make Webmin work. I have resolved the problem and I=B9m moving forward, ready to learn about managing an LDAP server. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 16:19:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4137C16A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:19:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from net.netophilia.net (ns.netophilia.net [66.96.216.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC52E43D39 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:19:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@netophilia.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.netophilia.net [127.0.0.1]) by net.netophilia.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2551B1C712; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:19:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from net.netophilia.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (net.netophilia.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22447-02; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:19:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by net.netophilia.net (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 137F91C6FA; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:19:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:19:46 -0500 From: Dan Kilbourne To: Xinizul Xinizul Message-ID: <20041223161946.GA61198@netophilia.net> References: <4d07305604122307583590297b@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4d07305604122307583590297b@mail.gmail.com> Organization: netophilia.net Visit: http://netophilia.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at netophilia.net cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3ddesk X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:19:57 -0000 Xinizul Xinizul extolled: > Hello all. > > This is a tool everyone should test. > > It is really really nice. > > Cheers, > > Xinizul I agree that this is a great piece of eye candy. One large issue I noticed was that it runs horribly under fluxbox. If you turn the autorefresh option on, it runs too slow to use, but only with fluxbox (that I have noticed). -- ___ Dan From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 16:33:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9E316A4CF for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:33:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web61202.mail.yahoo.com (web61202.mail.yahoo.com [216.155.196.126]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C25C943D1F for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:33:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mcd_advisory@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 50462 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Dec 2004 16:33:52 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=oXZQ5LbKkz+tGSI3MYj4pZtlz+TqEZqW5P0tIn5BRUV3NezrQtklGBkY8vFsqtMDFmNVSOAFGqsx8af8qjZsuDSxhaYD3TM7aw5CMzTpfWSSWkbWoAo/S6allRuZcy/jXyR6UHIzF1dACnl8shlq6d4pWsW96cNhH5y9dArjKLI= ; Message-ID: <20041223163352.50460.qmail@web61202.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.113.106.18] by web61202.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:33:52 PST Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:33:52 -0800 (PST) From: Mervin McDougall To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:33:53 -0000 There is an old saying that goes, "Be nice to the persons you meet on your way up,cause these are the same persons whom you meet on your down." I myself am a noobie and I guess we all are on some level. Nobody knows everything there is to know about unix not a noobie or the most experienced kernel hacker. To continue the legacy of persons acquiring and learning freebsd you need to foster first that feeling that it is ok to learn and it is not for an elite few. Everyone has got to start somewhere for goodness sake. But if you consider over time if you are going to need help from your user base to support you in any way, they are going to look back on freebsd more for how they were treated and how well they were attended to more than the request for help. They will be pouring out themselves to help even though they may not be the best programmer, kernel hacker, documenter or otherwise. If we have to foster and maintain a community that will ensure that FreeBSD will be there for others to love and enjoy in the future we have to remember to do those little things like helping out those who are not as technically inclined to get up to speed. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 17:06:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F5616A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:06:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F7C43D45 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:06:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from geekout@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 36so37867wra for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:06:43 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=LTQcnT8bVjWWGMidIzckgwA/5+hk1gxl8ZaiIn9vxVtTlPx8yQT8Snq6kxOEPh7TjxSQX0BCedE87vz/RcwU2D8d1/irz6YKbOtPmf6BaQOidnoGZl8eYR8gcwx7UYcJjw0lrTjlqGaCK++cSRatTBuUAi/+HmLZyRiMscyb2wI= Received: by 10.54.6.69 with SMTP id 69mr106590wrf; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.46.34 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:06:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6e01203b04122309064e682e1c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:06:43 -0700 From: Tyler Gee To: Mervin McDougall In-Reply-To: <20041223163352.50460.qmail@web61202.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041223163352.50460.qmail@web61202.mail.yahoo.com> cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Tyler Gee List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:06:44 -0000 I agree that -newbies is important for people who are otherwise too intimidated to post to -questions or anything else. I know that when I first started (which was only a year ago), I *never* would have felt comfortable posting to a regular list, not because people there were necessarily mean but because I felt my questions were too stupid. I think if you get rid of -newbies you are going to see a lot of people too scared to ask questions which means they risk moving away from FreeBSD or you are going to see -questions inundated with questions that will annoy people who don't want to deal with questions that newbies tend to have. I don't know what the problem is as people can merely unsubscribe from -newbies. Personally I read through them and try to help people out when I can. Let's be honest, how else can we achieve our goals of world domination if we are not nice to the little people. :) Happy holidays all! -wtgee On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:33:52 -0800 (PST), Mervin McDougall wrote: > There is an old saying that goes, "Be nice to the > persons you meet on your way up,cause these are the > same persons whom you meet on your down." > > I myself am a noobie and I guess we all are on some > level. Nobody knows everything there is to know about > unix not a noobie or the most experienced kernel > hacker. To continue the legacy of persons acquiring > and learning freebsd you need to foster first that > feeling that it is ok to learn and it is not for an > elite few. Everyone has got to start somewhere for > goodness sake. > > But if you consider over time if you are going to need > help from your user base to support you in any way, > they are going to look back on freebsd more for how > they were treated and how well they were attended to > more than the request for help. They will be pouring > out themselves to help even though they may not be the > best programmer, kernel hacker, documenter or > otherwise. > > If we have to foster and maintain a community that > will ensure that FreeBSD will be there for others to > love and enjoy in the future we have to remember to do > those little things like helping out those who are not > as technically inclined to get up to speed. > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more. > http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 17:12:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B35116A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:12:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF99143D41 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:12:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041223171202i9100rftbhe>; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:12:03 +0000 Message-ID: <41CAFC5F.2030306@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:11:59 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Xian References: <20041223101945.CB13C70468@smtp1.pacifier.net> <200412231128.18781.ml-freebsd-newbies@codepad.net> In-Reply-To: <200412231128.18781.ml-freebsd-newbies@codepad.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:12:05 -0000 Xian wrote: >On Thursday 23 December 2004 10:19, Charles Oppermann wrote: > > >>>>1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: >>>> >>>> >>I've always thought this was silly. All throughout the internet "newbies" >>implies beginner. A newbie mailing list regarding an operating system is >>naturally going to have people posting technical questions. Even if the >>newbie is aware of the technical questions mailing list, they may make the >>choice to post to freebsd-newbies because of intimidation. >> >>I understand the purpose of the list is "a gathering place for people new >>to FreeBSD" to "share [their] experiences with others" and I think that's >>wonderful. >> >>To accomplish that goal then, why not simply have a "freebsd-experience" >>mailing list? >> >>Personally, I think newbies (myself included) are intimidated by the >>freebsd-questions list and feel they will be more welcomed in a newbies >>list. For that reason, I think the freebsd-newbies list should stick >>around and have it's charter changed to allow technical discussions - with >>a caveat that they be moved to another list if not newbie oriented. >> >>Regardless of what's done, something has to change simply because so many >>people make the mistake of not reading or abiding my the current charter. >>Currently newbie's are chastised at the very time they feel most intimated. >>Instead, they should be welcomed, encouraged and nurtured. >> >>I'm glad the FreeBSD organization is discussing this, because it's been >>painful for me to watch people basically get yelled at for posting. Might >>not seem like yelling to someone who subscribes to a dozen or more lists >>and has tons of experience, but I'm sure the wet-behind-the-ears newbie has >>a different impression of what is likely their first experience with the >>FreeBSD community. >> >> > >I originally signed up to -questions and -newbies, but was overwhelmed by the >volume of mail on -questions and unsubscribed after a few days. I feel much >more comfortable with -newbies, especially if I want to ask a very basic >question because I know we have all been there at some point. > > I did the very same thing when I started learning FreeBSD, with FreeBSD 4.7/4.8. >I think it is better to tell some people that they should be asking on >-questions than close -newbies as really new people may feel intimidated and >not ask the very basic questions that this list is for. > > Agreed, if I can't help them (with a reasonable and (relatively) correct answer) here then most others cannot as well, this is when I send them on there way to questions, also, because this is a low volume list I take the time to research the question first if I not "sure" about the answer, this helps them but really helps me to learn the FreeBSD system. >I remember vividly when I had just installed FreeBSD, it asked for my lo gin >so I gave it my user name. Then it asked for a password so I gave it that. >But what sort of a question was '%'? I was most worried when 'help' didn't >work. I asked this list and anyone who would listen many basic questions that >I was wouldn't dared have asked on -questions. > > Speaking of "help" I have always though this sould at least be an alise to man (or "man man", or "man %foo")... but what I really want a clone of the MSDOS 6.xx Help system of the same name, when you typed in help with no args. it would load a "hypertext" curses program that listed all the commands (like "whatis") and then you could select a command for detail info about it. anyways... in the DOS world you always type'd "help, "help foo", or "foo /?" for help so for most people new to unix and freebsd whatis and man are unknow to them. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 17:50:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C6116A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:50:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from parts-unknown.org (dsl093-170-248.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.170.248]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1684B43D2F for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:50:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from benfell@parts-unknown.org) Received: (qmail 12577 invoked by alias); 23 Dec 2004 17:50:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:50:55 -0800 From: David Benfell To: Tyler Gee Message-ID: <20041223175055.GA12547@parts-unknown.org> References: <20041223163352.50460.qmail@web61202.mail.yahoo.com> <6e01203b04122309064e682e1c@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6e01203b04122309064e682e1c@mail.gmail.com> X-stardate: [-29]3228.59 X-moon: The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (92% of Full) X-nag-1: Please get a real e-mail account User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: Mervin McDougall cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:50:56 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:06:43 -0700, Tyler Gee wrote: > > I think if you get rid of -newbies you are going to see a lot of > people too scared to ask questions which means they risk moving away > from FreeBSD or you are going to see -questions inundated with > questions that will annoy people who don't want to deal with questions > that newbies tend to have. > >From what I've seen, this about covers the problem. Because RTFM is far too common a response on support lists. Another common response is no response at all. I have to qualify my comments here by saying I haven't paid enough specific attention to these lists to differentiate between the responses in the FreeBSD community from those of say, the OpenBSD or Linux communities. RTFM (Read The F* Manual) is an inadequate response, because 1) it is not always clear what information is needed, 2) it is not always clear where that information can be found, 3) the information is often presented in a format which is suitable for experienced users who are well-prepared for the various technical nuances, but not for people who are in over their heads, and 4) it is an arrogant and offensive response. I've been working with UNIX-like operating systems since 1998. Before that, in ancient history, I was a programmer/analyst, primarily on DEC PDP-11 RSTS/E systems, where I programmed in BASIC-PLUS, BASIC-PLUS-2, FORTRAN-IV, and PDP-11 MACRO Assembly language. I reveled in (and still miss) TECO. But having burned out as a programmer then, computers are, to me, very much means to several ends. They are *not* ends, in and of themselves. But in the meantime, things have gotten a lot more complicated. What required full-time effort to understand in my day, is a pale shadow of what must be understood today. And so, even after all this time, I still have "stupid" questions, questions which apparently do not merit a response on the several technical support lists I am subscribed to, or which earn condescending RTFM responses. Technical culture has retained--this is nothing new--an arrogance which finds fulfillment in the abuse of those who understand less about these systems and may actually have lives outside their laptops. And so the FreeBSD community, like other similarly-situated communities has a choice: Its members can choose, as is traditional, to use their knowledge and skill to boost their own egos, or they can use it to reach out to others. One path leads to a smaller community, and the other leads to a larger community. Which do you want? -- David Benfell, LCP benfell@parts-unknown.org --- Resume available at http://www.parts-unknown.org/resume.html From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 18:07:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18A3516A4D5 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:07:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.mi.celestial.com (dagney.celestial.com [192.136.111.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EFB343D31 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:07:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bill@celestial.com) Received: by mail.mi.celestial.com (Postfix, from userid 203) id F14E111E8F5; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:07:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:07:08 -0800 From: Bill Campbell To: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20041223180708.GB31915@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20041223101945.CB13C70468@smtp1.pacifier.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041223101945.CB13C70468@smtp1.pacifier.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd@celestial.com List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:07:10 -0000 On Thu, Dec 23, 2004, Charles Oppermann wrote: >>>1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: > >I've always thought this was silly. All throughout the internet "newbies" >implies beginner. A newbie mailing list regarding an operating system is >naturally going to have people posting technical questions. Even if the >newbie is aware of the technical questions mailing list, they may make the >choice to post to freebsd-newbies because of intimidation. I tend to agree with this. A list that caters to ``newbies'' should be a friendly place where people feel free to ask what might be considered simple questions on the more technical lists. Learning any new OS can be intimidating, and, even for people like me who read technical docs for fun, knowing where to look is part of the learning curve. One has to strike a balance though as list proliferation can make it difficult to find answers. As an example the python and zope communities seem to have a list for every possible topic, and people can get downright unfriendly if a question is posted to the ``wrong'' list. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``Our Foreign dealings are an Open Book, generally a Check Book.'' Will Rogers From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 18:12:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 357D516A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:12:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.mi.celestial.com (dagney.celestial.com [192.136.111.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 170A743D1F for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:12:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bill@celestial.com) Received: by mail.mi.celestial.com (Postfix, from userid 203) id E3A0311E8D5; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:12:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:12:09 -0800 From: Bill Campbell To: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20041223181209.GC31915@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <41CABC20.9090203@savaka.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41CABC20.9090203@savaka.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd@celestial.com List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:12:10 -0000 On Thu, Dec 23, 2004, Eric wrote: >How about rename this list "Newbie Questions" and just go on trust that >the people asking the questions are really newbies. I wouldn't want to change the list name, but the description provided on the Mailman listinfo page might be changed. My reluctance may be because I'm a Mailman newbie, and don't know how to transfer things like the archives from an old list to the new one (or how to import ten years of Majordomo archives into the Mailman list that replaced it :-). ... Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``People from East Germany have found the West so confusing. It's so much easier when you have only one party.'' -- Linus Torvalde, Linux Expo Canada when asked about confusion over many Linux distributions. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 18:17:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2474316A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:17:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A454043D54 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:17:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from geekout@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 36so46034wra for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:17:32 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=pUTFJEze6uNr/HswBGj69XWSpM5ZMn0rcNtI3XKuqYfTBU5zwsVUFSIfTWTNmAugIBandwGC2swbFmI7U7Evoqhw/ee0YRaEWCDPNqsf+5dBLHDmCPsJBJFHD9rAylWZ0ri8r7EbJOue1+0cG01/B05TlYypQ7Y1NL33tJkBUIY= Received: by 10.54.6.61 with SMTP id 61mr137034wrf; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.46.25 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:17:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6e01203b0412231017330f1228@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:17:32 -0700 From: Tyler Gee To: freebsd@celestial.com, FreeBSD-newbies@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20041223181209.GC31915@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <41CABC20.9090203@savaka.com> <20041223181209.GC31915@alexis.mi.celestial.com> Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Tyler Gee List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:17:33 -0000 However, to play Devil's Advocate, I think that Greg's original point is valid in as much as I notice that -newbies doesn't necessarily generate a lot of discussion whereas something like bsdforums.org does see a lot of obviously newbie questions. In fact, I have answered far more newbie questions on that forum than I have even seen on -newbies. Does that mean we should disband the list or redraft the description? I am not entirely sure because of that "comfort" that is supplied the very first time you are reading about the install and you see the -newbies list. Furthermore, I am assuming that all of the questions on -newbies are archived as part of the "official" correspondence of FreeBSD, which is of legacy value also. Wait a minute, I apparently switched from devil's advocate for Greg back to my support of -newbies. Hmmmm. A little too much bailey's in my holiday coffee this morning. -wtgee On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:12:09 -0800, Bill Campbell wrote: > On Thu, Dec 23, 2004, Eric wrote: > >How about rename this list "Newbie Questions" and just go on trust that > >the people asking the questions are really newbies. > > I wouldn't want to change the list name, but the description provided on > the Mailman listinfo page might be changed. My reluctance may be because > I'm a Mailman newbie, and don't know how to transfer things like the > archives from an old list to the new one (or how to import ten years of > Majordomo archives into the Mailman list that replaced it :-). > > ... > > Bill > -- > INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC > UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way > FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 > URL: http://www.celestial.com/ > > ``People from East Germany have found the West so confusing. It's so much > easier when you have only one party.'' -- Linus Torvalde, Linux Expo Canada > when asked about confusion over many Linux distributions. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 19:07:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CEA016A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:07:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.omnis.com (smtp.omnis.com [216.239.128.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E01D43D2F; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:07:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from zaphod.softweyr.com (cpe-69-75-218-19.san.rr.com [69.75.218.19]) by smtp-relay.omnis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C8C140789B; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:07:50 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr.COM To: Eric Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:07:50 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <41CABC20.9090203@savaka.com> In-Reply-To: <41CABC20.9090203@savaka.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412231107.51075@zaphod.softweyr.com> cc: FreeBSD Core Team cc: FreeBSD-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:07:57 -0000 On Thursday 23 December 2004 04:37, Eric wrote: > How about rename this list "Newbie Questions" and just go on trust that > the people asking the questions are really newbies. Newbies asking the questions isn't the problem. The problem is the newbies *answering* the questions. ;^) We (Core) are very interested in how best to address the needs of newcomers. If the newbies list is a nice, low-intimidation place to meet that need, we need to get better answers to the newbie questions. Perhaps some legwork over the holidays by a couple of not-so-new newbies to put together a newbie FAQ would be a start? Perhaps a nice notice to append to the bottom of all newbies messages, reminding newbies of the list charter, where the newbies FAQ is, etc, would be helpful? Perhaps we could find a way to entice more experience users from the -questions list to troll the newbies archive occasionally, answering questions not yet found in the FAQ? Maybe we can set up a donation program where experienced users can get a Krispy Kreme in return for answering a newbie question? Come on, newbies, let's hear YOUR ideas on how to get better answers for your questions. (I personally wish we had the ability to clone Doug White a dozen times and throw all the Douglets into supporting newbies, but we keep experiencing DNA copy errors and the Douglets become flightless antarctic waterfowl. Weird. Maybe we shouldn't gzip the DNA before transmittal...) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 19:27:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD0216A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:27:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D08B43D48; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:27:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:26:09 -0600 Message-ID: <41CB1C0C.70804@daleco.biz> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:27:08 -0600 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Dec 2004 19:26:10.0252 (UTC) FILETIME=[41EFE8C0:01C4E925] cc: Sue Blake cc: FreeBSD Core Team cc: FreeBSD-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:27:22 -0000 Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >Most (all?) of the traffic on -newbies lately has been of technical >nature. That's not surprising, but there are a number of reasons why >it's not a good idea: > > These reasons (though snipped) are correct, of course. The central issue, then, is that the list isn't living up to its charter. [?] That is not surprising to me either, because the charter has always seemed a bit confusing; or, maybe "confusing" isn't the proper term, but I, as many others, have often wondered, "if we can't talk about FreeBSD (with our concerns, generally, as most FreeBSD users are either creating FreeBSD or climbing up its learning curve), then what is this list for"? I think it's probably human nature; a thread on the topic of, say, "Happy Birthday 2 Me", doesn't garner a lot of responses. In searching my archives, however, I see very few threads here that aren't of a questions@ nature. Indeed, the one I mention is about the only one I found (with the exception of a couple of cron jobs [Dan L's "Diary" and Auntie Sue's "FAK"]) that isn't asking a question. [Admittedly, my local archive starts on August 1, and `visual diff` isn't the great comparison tool.] >I'd suggest that we slowly disband this list (over a period of, say, >two weeks). There are plenty of other FreeBSD mailing lists, and it's >up to you to join them. If you're interested in technical issues, >-questions is the obvious one to join. > >Comments? >Greg > > I'm sure you're looking for a word from Sue, which you may have already received via private mail, but I'll contribute in the O.S. tradition ... ;-) Please understand that I'm thinking out loud, and I am not making demands (as I have no right to do so, and you are perfectly within your rights to discontinue the lists as you see fit.) Are there any other reasons for disbanding, or is it simply that the list and the charter don't mix? It's certainly true that there are many other lists that may be more appropriate; but I also think, as many other posters have mentioned, that a "point of entry" for questions that "might be dumb" isn't such a bad idea, precisely because human nature seems to indicate that people will ask a lot of FAQs and/or repetitive questions simply out of either laziness or a real lack of understanding, and because the same human nature seems to also indicate that they will certainly, on occasion, get flamed/RTFMed/belittled; it's not good "PR" for the Project, but I'm not sure what can be done about it. I resonated with phk@'s call (in Scott L's "Project wish-list for the next 12 months" thread over in hackers@) for "a band of happy 1st line responders ...." Granted, he was talking specifically about PR's, but I see the need for something similar on the lists. It might be desirable either to simply change the newbies charter (or list name) to something like "FreeBSD-FAQs" and allow people to ask their "might be dumb" questions, or else go ahead and drop newbies@ while making it *quite clear* (and I guess I'm suggesting with "core hat" on) to the community that people of all levels of skill, both technical and linguistic (and otherwise) use the questions@ list, and RTFMing/flaming/ /belittling is not considered an acceptable use of the questions@ list, and that the Right Thing(tm) in some cases would be to ignore those topics that "tend to offend" and let someone else with more patience and/or time on their hands handle the "why isn't there a `help` command?", "why does su say *sorry*?", and "why the devil is the devil on your web site?" type questions... Maybe that could be a new cron job, or added to your current one ("how to get the best results") although the nature of that post is a little different in that it attempts to raise the level of awareness and literacy of the user in preparation for "fitting in" to the acceptable social order (gosh, that's a terrible paragraph ... I apologize for not being able to get the right words for my thoughts on this, I don't intend to offend, if indeed I am). It appears to me there are three or four things that could be done: 1. Have two "questions" type lists, one for the "easy/FAQ" type questions and another for more difficult ones, by either creating a new one or changing the charter of this one. 2. Attempt to make "questions@" a bit more tolerant and "friendly." 3. Maintain status quo (with newbies@ in existence). 4. Maintain status quo (without newbies@ in existence). I don't envy you this/these decision(s). I suppose I'd welcome one less mail filter to maintain, but I don't want to bruise too many egos or black the Project's eye any more than necessary, either. Thank you for all you have done and are doing for FreeBSD, and for the mailing lists, as well. Kevin Kinsey From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 19:59:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8196A16A4EE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:59:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.116]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB8F43D31; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:59:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jayobrien@worldnet.att.net) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (dsl093-180-184.sac1.dsl.speakeasy.net[66.93.180.184]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12) with ESMTP id <2004122319590911200mhb9ce> (Authid: jayobrien@att.net); Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:59:10 +0000 Message-ID: <41CB2382.4040802@att.net> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:58:58 -0800 From: Jay O'Brien User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040803 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <41CABC20.9090203@savaka.com> <200412231107.51075@zaphod.softweyr.com> In-Reply-To: <200412231107.51075@zaphod.softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: FreeBSD Core Team cc: FreeBSD-newbies@freebsd.org cc: Eric Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:59:12 -0000 Wes Peters wrote: > On Thursday 23 December 2004 04:37, Eric wrote: > >>How about rename this list "Newbie Questions" and just go on trust that >>the people asking the questions are really newbies. > > > Newbies asking the questions isn't the problem. The problem is the newbies > *answering* the questions. ;^) > > We (Core) are very interested in how best to address the needs of newcomers. > If the newbies list is a nice, low-intimidation place to meet that need, we > need to get better answers to the newbie questions. > > Perhaps some legwork over the holidays by a couple of not-so-new newbies to > put together a newbie FAQ would be a start? Perhaps a nice notice to append > to the bottom of all newbies messages, reminding newbies of the list charter, > where the newbies FAQ is, etc, would be helpful? Perhaps we could find a way > to entice more experience users from the -questions list to troll the newbies > archive occasionally, answering questions not yet found in the FAQ? Maybe we > can set up a donation program where experienced users can get a Krispy Kreme > in return for answering a newbie question? > > Come on, newbies, let's hear YOUR ideas on how to get better answers for your > questions. > > (I personally wish we had the ability to clone Doug White a dozen times and > throw all the Douglets into supporting newbies, but we keep experiencing DNA > copy errors and the Douglets become flightless antarctic waterfowl. Weird. > Maybe we shouldn't gzip the DNA before transmittal...) > Wes, As a newbie, I've had many questions; I still have them and as I get the time to learn more I'll have more questions. I've received very useful, prompt and detailed responses on -questions, and I've monitored the -newbies list. My take on the -newbies list is that most of the responses are "take it to -questions", so I did that without first posting to -newbies. You ask newbies to respond; "how to get better answers?". How about a search engine that provides useful responses to newbie questions? I get much better and more useful responses from google than I do at the http://www.freebsd.org/search/ page. To see what I mean, at "Web pages (including FAQ and Handbook)" type boot. The response is intimidating, the 25 hits are in six languages, and you don't learn how to select your language until you learn by trial and error. There is no way to restrict hits to one language. There are no snippets of helpful text to help you decide what to try first. That was my first exposure to FreeBSD; my reaction was to order some books from Amazon. Later, after reading Leahy and Lucas, I found the FreeBSD handbook on line to be an even better source; but initially I was overwhelmed, especially when trying to "learn" from MAN pages. MAN pages are written for someone who already knows the answer. Try MAN BOOT for example. Mind boggling as a first exposure; but now that I have it working, MAN BOOT NOW makes sense to me. MAN BOOT explains what IS working, not how to make it work. Not a problem, but in retrospect I think I should have been warned about the tenor of MAN pages and steered away from them initially. For a comparison, go to Google and type in FreeBSD boot. Now this is useful, and where I go first, not to the FreeBSD search page. Maybe google could be used as the FreeBSD search engine, limited to the FreeBSD pages? FreeBSD suffers from the malady of most technical documentation. The docs are written by people who understand the subject and do a great job of telling the story to those who already know the story. Well, you asked, and thanks for asking. You didn't ask about -questions, but I'm going to answer anyway. The folks on -questions are better, faster, friendlier and more accurate than any paid support staff I've ever encountered. I'm pleased to be associated, if only in a small way, with such a dedicated and committed team. Merry Christmas to all. Jay O'Brien Rio Linda, California USA From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 20:18:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27AF916A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:18:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C28BB43D2F for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:18:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gianluca@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c16so196015rne for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:18:02 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=rEI7T5Fxj0d3Keh9OKhhZaTvCHWyCc2AkvSyJt2XfbHcVRn7KrmzOhd3vlzUHsk8nKmnWceYQmqZjkbX4qMQkilSqJvLEhL7zswinif9OplCQgOd1A1WUULOapBsdKP8SzV5MDYe87lKBxsZNzz1vp3BOmbWfT1tWN/bwJ6VsYU= Received: by 10.38.152.45 with SMTP id z45mr175298rnd; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:18:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.74.37 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:18:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:18:01 -0800 From: Gianluca To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <41CB1C0C.70804@daleco.biz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <41CB1C0C.70804@daleco.biz> Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ghost@kzsu.org List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:18:03 -0000 Hello, as a freebsd newbie myself, I'm a little ambivalent about the list and the overall attitude towards really FAQ-type questions. no matter how many helpful (and knowledgeable) people might monitor this list and answer every question, RTFM (not in such a rude way) is a necessary answer in the OSS world: if you're installing freebsd and get intimidated by the tcsh prompt, there's something intrinsically wrong that no number of helpful answers will correct. I did choose freebsd over the other free *nixes for my impression of better documentation and community support, but especially because there's already an awesome piece of documentation like the handbook, questions that are really too basic are just adding to the background noise. what I'd really like/need as a newbie are more tutorials in the style of samba's how-to, i.e. walkthroughs for selected scenarios that are representative of real-world use of the OS. stuff like what the freebsddiary provides, but much more and more oriented to newbies/home users that are probably coming from windows. I'm thinking for example of common things like setting up a home firewall, or a simple file server (maybe with RAID which is what I'm struggling w/ right now) with recommendations all the way from the hardware ("if you're buying new, X is more supported than Y" is something I'd really like to see explicitly more often) to installation, configuration and maintenance. having said that I wouldn't want to see newbies- go though :) g. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 21:15:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12FC416A597 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:15:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.oregonfast.net (ip205-38.oregonfast.net [216.110.205.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A945443D3F for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:15:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shines@smaller.net) Received: (qmail 74873 invoked by uid 98); 23 Dec 2004 21:15:36 -0000 Received: from ip147.kings-court.pdx.ygnition.net (HELO musal32mpxlg) (shines@smaller.net@66.199.65.147) by mail.oregonfast.net with SMTP; 23 Dec 2004 21:15:36 -0000 From: "Sally Hines" To: "'Tyler Gee'" , "'Mervin McDougall'" Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:15:46 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c4e934$9290f080$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6e01203b04122309064e682e1c@mail.gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Rating: mail.oregonfast.net 0/1/N cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Manpage interpreter X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: shines@smaller.net List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:15:37 -0000 Hi, I've been subscribing to this list for over 3 years. I initially subscribed to the -questions list also, but I couldn't handle the volume, and also couldn't interpret the language used there. I need to learn in a language that I know, or at least get an interpreter for the manpage-ese that's used in replies to questions on that list. I ask a simple question, how do I automate ports update? I get "read the manpages" or quoting from the manpages which is written in a language foreign to me, but masquerades as English. Where can I get at least a good, simple glossary for the terms used in the manpages and on the questions list? I asked questions here, and got yelled at, at great length. I have not posted to this list for over a year because of that. Sally Hines With a broken FreeBSD box From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 21:21:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB4216A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:21:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3D1443D2F for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:21:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from geekout@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 36so64584wra for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:21:11 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=gIdLYKXc24iLJ/qJF9MbsPqvUf4pQTl+cWjBnTQiU7JwxX7BETgetTbScvgzX8iT22/HqkH7boVpTYVemiEuYiEozLrg0aTIRXouzSxaBlZQDLMRDXpuAKK++mEr8d/fFJDSwSuC9zZ8hJSjqrMlyQxxGo1/4oYRyMUAigZVSqg= Received: by 10.54.6.57 with SMTP id 57mr212350wrf; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.46.25 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:21:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6e01203b04122313217a55640c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:21:11 -0700 From: Tyler Gee To: ghost@kzsu.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <41CB1C0C.70804@daleco.biz> cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Tyler Gee List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:21:12 -0000 For examply, Sally's post which everyone just saw: Hi, I've been subscribing to this list for over 3 years. I initially subscribed to the -questions list also, but I couldn't handle the volume, and also couldn't interpret the language used there. I need to learn in a language that I know, or at least get an interpreter for the manpage-ese that's used in replies to questions on that list. I ask a simple question, how do I automate ports update? I get "read the manpages" or quoting from the manpages which is written in a language foreign to me, but masquerades as English. Where can I get at least a good, simple glossary for the terms used in the manpages and on the questions list? I asked questions here, and got yelled at, at great length. I have not posted to this list for over a year because of that. On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:18:01 -0800, Gianluca wrote: > Hello, > as a freebsd newbie myself, I'm a little ambivalent about the list and > the overall attitude towards really FAQ-type questions. no matter how > many helpful (and knowledgeable) people might monitor this list and > answer every question, RTFM (not in such a rude way) is a necessary > answer in the OSS world: if you're installing freebsd and get > intimidated by the tcsh prompt, there's something intrinsically wrong > that no number of helpful answers will correct. I did choose freebsd > over the other free *nixes for my impression of better documentation > and community support, but especially because there's already an > awesome piece of documentation like the handbook, questions that are > really too basic are just adding to the background noise. > > what I'd really like/need as a newbie are more tutorials in the style > of samba's how-to, i.e. walkthroughs for selected scenarios that are > representative of real-world use of the OS. stuff like what the > freebsddiary provides, but much more and more oriented to newbies/home > users that are probably coming from windows. I'm thinking for example > of common things like setting up a home firewall, or a simple file > server (maybe with RAID which is what I'm struggling w/ right now) > with recommendations all the way from the hardware ("if you're buying > new, X is more supported than Y" is something I'd really like to see > explicitly more often) to installation, configuration and maintenance. > > having said that I wouldn't want to see newbies- go though :) > > g. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 21:23:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC0C16A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:23:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150BD43D1F for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:23:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from geekout@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 36so64815wra for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:23:50 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=d9UuGZd9ZSXlzaI0MfKZ7ja96ruar3+jhdPu/WtO7K9Hc1aXx9jHHHaOWBRU/OxFP5TDad+okg6n/Mrxgmt5NsGBp6+5LQMk4e1N2xH1ASa2akGF0gxXd430xDfoys0KjDuf+OIOdbkCsq/W74pAQYzne9T1UjFcRz8kR8zTzak= Received: by 10.54.6.61 with SMTP id 61mr209885wrf; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:23:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.46.25 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:23:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <6e01203b04122313237a93a5c0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:23:50 -0700 From: Tyler Gee To: shines@smaller.net In-Reply-To: <000001c4e934$9290f080$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <6e01203b04122309064e682e1c@mail.gmail.com> <000001c4e934$9290f080$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> cc: Mervin McDougall cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Manpage interpreter X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Tyler Gee List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:23:51 -0000 Sally, There are a couple of options for automation, a particularly good one in Dru Lavigne's book BSD Hacks (http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bsdhks/). Short of that, check out this post: http://www.bsdforums.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26801 If you have questions about putting that into a script just ask. -wtgee On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:15:46 -0800, Sally Hines wrote: > Hi, > > I've been subscribing to this list for over 3 years. I initially subscribed > to the -questions list also, but I couldn't handle the volume, and also > couldn't interpret the language used there. I need to learn in a language > that I know, or at least get an interpreter for the manpage-ese that's used > in replies to questions on that list. > > I ask a simple question, how do I automate ports update? I get "read the > manpages" or quoting from the manpages which is written in a language > foreign to me, but masquerades as English. Where can I get at least a good, > simple glossary for the terms used in the manpages and on the questions > list? > > I asked questions here, and got yelled at, at great length. I have not > posted to this list for over a year because of that. > > Sally Hines > With a broken FreeBSD box > > From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 21:44:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3464016A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:44:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from newalpha.avalonworks.net (newalpha.avalonworks.net [216.58.97.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD99843D1F for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:44:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from hindrich@worldchat.com) Received: from Brantford-ppp129572.sympatico.ca (Brantford-ppp129572.sympatico.ca [209.226.245.183])iBNLiKpc042709 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:44:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from hindrich@worldchat.com) From: Peterhin To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:44:32 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412231644.32030.hindrich@worldchat.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/639/Wed Dec 22 09:09:50 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on newalpha.avalonworks.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:44:23 -0000 If I may voice an opinion (from a newbie). First of all two years ago I started playing with GNU/Linux, having used the other systems, and was thrilled by GNU/Linux. What I found however was the HUGE amount of info on the Web. Slowly I started to realize that it could become a full time occupation just trying to find all the relevant material in trying to solve a certain problem. I have to admit that I was becoming overwhelmed by it all. Then a few weeks ago a sys. admin. suggested that I have a look at FreeBSD. My first impression after going to freebsd.org was now I will have to find all the other relevant sites as I had to do with GNU/Linux. However after going through freebsd.org,s site I started to see that all that I would need could be found right here. This has a certain appeal to me, for when you have a problem, you want to have answers close at hand. I have always worked on the principal if you have a problem try to go to source for your answer. With the little I understand of BSD it seems to me that they have tried to stay as close to source as possible. What I mean is after reading http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/bsd4linux1.php whch was brought to my attention by Joshua Tinnin, and I thank him for that, was that the people behind freeBSD had a vision of a (pure?) system. I see now how all over the place Linux is, the idea is great, and the sys. works really well for most. Back to my point, as a newbie trying to learn freebsd, first of all the source for info is close at hand, that is great, the support from all the different mailing lists. etc. is a definite plus. What those of you who have the experience with freebsd, might want to consider is that for those of us who have never worked with Unix, we have to learn a whole new language, and that can be daunting at times. So as a newbie what I would appreciate is just what I have experience in the last two days, lots of positive and polite responses, (As a wise man once said "No question is a stupid question, its the opportunity to learn") There was a suggestion of putting up a newbie FAQ, that would be great, and as I think about it some more, hopefully I can come up with my humble ideas. "Mentoring" is a wonderful way for all of us to learn, maybe there is something that could be done with this. I thank you all for your concerns over this issue, (especially as a newbie) it shows me that there are people who take pride in what they do. My hope is that some day I will be able to pass on some relevant advise, on Freebsd. -- Peter "Peace is never more than one thought away" GNU/Linux Freedom http://libranet.com http://www.fsf.org From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 22:24:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C2DC16A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:24:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fed1rmmtao09.cox.net (fed1rmmtao09.cox.net [68.230.241.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C93A443D5E for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:24:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marella@hawaii.rr.com) Received: from localhost ([68.8.243.244]) by fed1rmmtao09.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20041223222425.RPTF2638.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@localhost> for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:24:25 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:19:36 -1000 From: Robert Marella To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041223121936.19c780c2@localhost> In-Reply-To: <41CB1C0C.70804@daleco.biz> References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <41CB1C0C.70804@daleco.biz> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.13 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:24:26 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:27:08 -0600 Kevin Kinsey wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > >Most (all?) of the traffic on -newbies lately has been of technical > >nature. That's not surprising, but there are a number of reasons why > >it's not a good idea: > > > > > > These reasons (though snipped) are correct, of course. > > It's certainly true that there are many other lists > that may be more appropriate; but I also think, as > many other posters have mentioned, that a "point of > entry" for questions that "might be dumb" isn't > such a bad idea, precisely because human nature > seems to indicate that people will ask a lot of FAQs > Let us not forget how FAQs became FAQs. Sometimes an acronym takes on a life of it's own and in this case it is sometimes misconstrued as a *fact*. It means Frequently Asked Questions. There must be a reason why they are frequently asked! I have been using FreeBSD for almost a year. I absolutely love it. My troubles were plenty when I started and I subscribed to newbies@ and lurked for a while. I realized quickly that this was not the place to ask technical questions so I subsribed to questions@ and lurked there. My first post to questions was very helpful. I received zero responses and was forced to find the answer myself. A great learning experience. I have since asked about a dozen questions and sometimes I still do not receive a response. Questions@ is not the *end all* for answers. I feel that there is a need for a newbies@ but it needs to provide some help. If one was to go to a forum there are always stickies and direct links to the FAQs. Perhaps this can be incorporated into newbies. My 2 seashells Mele Kalikimaka Robert From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 22:46:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D5A16A4D0 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:46:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web61205.mail.yahoo.com (web61205.mail.yahoo.com [216.155.196.129]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3EFFF43D39 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:46:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mcd_advisory@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 62814 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Dec 2004 22:46:20 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=rYeOspo0ss41j5C2xm6r2xCiXqJZkJu0NI/tiJ/oUnDqxGr8sNKiX6iJu31dtnyu4XYGTKQevAcWXBTSMczbdKgAdMSwkF7qdqLrNMa6FK2LXjZjgSrj/ISnui1xwNGC/MUQ9quuVxQyc06ZPwSDZQhe/QIcwLtX4mZWd6jXMgQ= ; Message-ID: <20041223224620.62812.qmail@web61205.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.28.117.82] by web61205.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:46:20 PST Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:46:20 -0800 (PST) From: Mervin McDougall To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Poor Console resolution on Compaq 2103US X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:46:21 -0000 I have one experience to share as a newbie, that of trying to get a proper console resolution on my laptop. I chose to stick with FreeBSD over Slackware for my laptop for the simplicity in its init system and fewer init levels, its ports and packages system which reduces the stress of looking for a file and all its dependencies and getting it downloaded, compiled and using on my laptop and basically its speed of booting- in 2/3 the time it takes slackware linux to boot, bsd is at the loging prompt.However,getting the proper console resolution was a pain as I favour console over X. I tried recompiling the kernel including support for Vesa by including options VESA and SC_PIXEL_MODE and that didn't work.I tried compiling the kernel with suppor for VGA_90WIDTH and that still did not provide me with adequate space on my screen to get anything else done. My console only the center of my screen and only occupied a 1/3 rd of the entire screen. I was very stressed until I cam across a website of someone who had successfully installed FreeBSD 5.2.1 on a similar laptop. I contacted him and he explained that he had similar problem but got over the issue by making use of a patch which allowed me to achieve screen resolutions of 1024x768. I have gotten over the problem happily but there are still some issues that the patch created in making use of it as slower performance in switching from console to X and the printing of error information when the kernel is initiating vidcontrol but I get to use console more often thankfully. I wish that the freebsd team would look into fixing any errors in vidcontrol to get the problem with screen resolutions on laptops fixed. I was able to do this with ease using linux framebuffer settings with slackware but had so much difficulty getting that done under freebsd 5.3. I could have chosen to give up and simply use linux but I like the way freebsd performs something about it is just magically and wouldn't want to miss out on using it. I just wish somethng could be done to better the performance of the system as is and get rid of some of those escape errors. or gett a better patch from the freebsd team. If anyone has a similar laptop and wants to get some specifics about what works and what doesn't feel free to visit http://demira.shopkeeper.de/~sascha/nx9005/ its pretty informative. Mervin McDougall __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 23:31:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEFC616A4CF for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:31:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9244343D49 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:31:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041223233148i9100rfhrfe>; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:31:54 +0000 Message-ID: <41CB5560.3090102@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:31:44 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nikolas Britton References: <20041223101945.CB13C70468@smtp1.pacifier.net> <200412231128.18781.ml-freebsd-newbies@codepad.net> <41CAFC5F.2030306@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: <41CAFC5F.2030306@nbritton.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Xian cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:31:56 -0000 > Speaking of "help" I have always though this sould at least be an > alise to man (or "man man", or "man %foo")... but what I really want a > clone of the MSDOS 6.xx Help system of the same name, when you typed > in help with no args. it would load a "hypertext" curses program that > listed all the commands (like "whatis") and then you could select a > command for detail info about it. anyways... in the DOS world you > always type'd "help, "help foo", or "foo /?" for help so for most > people new to unix and freebsd whatis and man are unknow to them. I may have a simple solution to this: create a new man page named "help", in this man page is a brief (newbie oriented) one page guide on how to use the man pages and how to find commands to use (whatis / apropos, btw who came up with that name? I could not remember it if my life depended on it). this man page would then be aliased as "help". what do yea think? From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 00:17:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C1E16A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:17:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D3643D3F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:17:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041224001739i9100rfi18e>; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:17:40 +0000 Message-ID: <41CB6020.3050805@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:17:36 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mervin McDougall References: <20041223224620.62812.qmail@web61205.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041223224620.62812.qmail@web61205.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org cc: cyrille.lefevre@laposte.net Subject: Re: kern/71142; VESA 1024x768; (Poor Console resolution on Compaq 2103US) X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:17:42 -0000 Mervin McDougall wrote: >I have one experience to share as a newbie, that of >trying to get a proper console resolution on my >laptop. I chose to stick with FreeBSD over Slackware >for my laptop for the simplicity in its init system >and fewer init levels, its ports and packages system >which reduces the stress of looking for a file and all >its dependencies and getting it downloaded, compiled >and using on my laptop and basically its speed of >booting- in 2/3 the time it takes slackware linux to >boot, bsd is at the loging prompt.However,getting the >proper console resolution was a pain as I favour >console over X. > >I tried recompiling the kernel including support for >Vesa by including options VESA and SC_PIXEL_MODE and >that didn't work.I tried compiling the kernel with >suppor for VGA_90WIDTH and that still did not provide >me with adequate space on my screen to get anything >else done. My console only the center of my screen and >only occupied a 1/3 rd of the entire screen. I was >very stressed until I cam across a website of someone >who had successfully installed FreeBSD 5.2.1 on a >similar laptop. I contacted him and he explained that >he had similar problem but got over the issue by >making use of a patch which allowed me to achieve >screen resolutions of 1024x768. > >I have gotten over the problem happily but there are >still some issues that the patch created in making use >of it as slower performance in switching from console >to X and the printing of error information when the >kernel is initiating vidcontrol but I get to use >console more often thankfully. > >I wish that the freebsd team would look into fixing >any errors in vidcontrol to get the problem with >screen resolutions on laptops fixed. I was able to do >this with ease using linux framebuffer settings with >slackware but had so much difficulty getting that done >under freebsd 5.3. > >I could have chosen to give up and simply use linux >but I like the way freebsd performs something about it >is just magically and wouldn't want to miss out on >using it. I just wish somethng could be done to better >the performance of the system as is and get rid of >some of those escape errors. or gett a better patch >from the freebsd team. > >If anyone has a similar laptop and wants to get some >specifics about what works and what doesn't feel free >to visit >http://demira.shopkeeper.de/~sascha/nx9005/ >its pretty informative. > >Mervin McDougall > > > > > (For FreeBSD current mailing list and Cyrille Lefevre): What is the current status of this patch, is there an updated version of this patch that address console slowness, etc., and when will it be MFC'd to 5-STABLE? (5.4_RELEASE?) ---------------- This is a problem with most ATI RAGE cards including my laptop (Armada 1750, ATI Rage LT Pro) I have successfully applied this patch to that system and can now use 1024x768 at the console, the patch is here: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=kern/71142 Please note that at Lines 790, 982, and 1000 are hard returns that brake the patch when run though the awk script so fix them before you run "qp2txt patch.eml | patch" or "patch Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319A716A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:23:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from xeon.mediajuice.net (xeon.mediajuice.net [64.62.172.228]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2619A43D64 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:23:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stefan@thinki.co.uk) Received: from adsl-163-155.cytanet.com.cy ([213.149.163.155] helo=fred) by xeon.mediajuice.net with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CheAf-00014f-AR for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:23:10 -0800 From: "S Jagger" To: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:23:27 +0200 Message-ID: <021c01c4e957$2e23a110$1086aa0a@fred> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - xeon.mediajuice.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - thinki.co.uk X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:23:23 -0000 Hi, I will voice my opinion on this matter. The freebsd-newbies list should be an open area for new users to FreeBSD. As I read earlier.. people are intimidated by posting to other groups. This list should be for anything and everything. Questions or Suggestions. Stefan From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 02:22:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B398716A53C for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 02:22:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.bitfreak.org (mail.bitfreak.org [65.75.198.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65DD543D1D for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 02:22:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dmp@bitfreak.org) Received: from spud (mail.bitfreak.org [65.75.198.146]) by mail.bitfreak.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE7B019F3A; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:25:46 -0800 (PST) From: "Darren Pilgrim" To: "'S Jagger'" , Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:22:24 -0800 Message-ID: <001001c4e95f$6b30c620$142a15ac@spud> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <021c01c4e957$2e23a110$1086aa0a@fred> Importance: Normal Subject: RE: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 02:22:35 -0000 > From: S Jagger > =20 > I will voice my opinion on this matter. > =20 > The freebsd-newbies list should be an open area for new users to > FreeBSD. As I read earlier.. people are intimidated by=20 > posting to other > groups. > =20 > This list should be for anything and everything. Questions or > Suggestions. > =20 > Stefan The end of this thread contains the phrase, "The charter of this list = was hashed out years ago, is now well-established, works reasonably well and isn't likely to change much any time soon." This thread can be expected to cover these additional points: - The -questions list has a bug: when a common or newbie non-technical question is posted, a race condition occurs in which everyone tries to = wait for someone else to answer the question. - Those of us who read and answer technical questions posted here are = urged do so with redirection to -questions. Failure to do so usually results = in careful application of clue-oriented, dimensional wood-products. - Also recommended are pointers to additional resources, such as = searchable mailing list archives and pointers to other threads or guides adressing = the queried subject. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 02:52:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7482F16A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 02:52:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.82]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 278CF43D72 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 02:52:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.26.30 with login) by smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 02:52:30 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:52:29 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <001001c4e95f$6b30c620$142a15ac@spud> In-Reply-To: <001001c4e95f$6b30c620$142a15ac@spud> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412231852.29773.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: Darren Pilgrim cc: 'S Jagger' Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 02:52:31 -0000 On Thursday 23 December 2004 06:22 pm, "Darren Pilgrim" wrote: > > From: S Jagger > > > > I will voice my opinion on this matter. > > > > The freebsd-newbies list should be an open area for new users to > > FreeBSD. As I read earlier.. people are intimidated by > > posting to other > > groups. > > > > This list should be for anything and everything. Questions or > > Suggestions. > > > > Stefan > > The end of this thread contains the phrase, "The charter of this list > was hashed out years ago, is now well-established, works reasonably > well At the risk of sounding impertinent, I disagree that it works reasonably well. I do think there is some value in a newbie list, but 50%+ of the traffic on this list for extended periods of time is technical questions, a few scattered answers and admonitions to ask the questions list. For some people, the questions list is overwhelming and intimidating. I think this list would work reasonably well under the current charter if it were moderated. I don't have much history with the FreeBSD community, but since I brought it up, I'm willing to offer to do that. I do have extensive experience moderating email lists. But I also think that this list would "work" better if it had a slightly different charter which allowed for entry-level tech questions, and a clause that reiterates all users should be polite to people who ask what might seem like silly questions. I think that's what newbies need more than anything: a place to ask questions about rudimentary problems without feeling a sense of intimidation about doing it. Some of the questions would be/are basic *nix stuff, which isn't necessarily on-topic in questions, but it would be nice for those very new (to *nix in general) users to have a place to ask about that sort of thing. Anyway, my two cents. Other than that, if nothing else I hope that this list can survive in some useful form. - jt > and isn't likely to change much any time soon." > > This thread can be expected to cover these additional points: > > - The -questions list has a bug: when a common or newbie > non-technical question is posted, a race condition occurs in which > everyone tries to wait for someone else to answer the question. > > - Those of us who read and answer technical questions posted here > are urged do so with redirection to -questions. Failure to do so > usually results in careful application of clue-oriented, dimensional > wood-products. > > - Also recommended are pointers to additional resources, such as > searchable mailing list archives and pointers to other threads or > guides adressing the queried subject. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 03:29:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4098A16A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:29:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp803.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp803.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D8E3A43D2F for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:29:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.26.30 with login) by smtp803.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 03:29:21 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, shines@smaller.net Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:29:20 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <000001c4e934$9290f080$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> In-Reply-To: <000001c4e934$9290f080$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412231929.20740.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: 'Mervin McDougall' cc: 'Tyler Gee' Subject: Re: Manpage interpreter X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:29:22 -0000 On Thursday 23 December 2004 01:15 pm, "Sally Hines" wrote: > Hi, > > I've been subscribing to this list for over 3 years. I initially > subscribed to the -questions list also, but I couldn't handle the > volume, and also couldn't interpret the language used there. I need > to learn in a language that I know, or at least get an interpreter > for the manpage-ese that's used in replies to questions on that list. > > I ask a simple question, how do I automate ports update? I get "read > the manpages" or quoting from the manpages which is written in a > language foreign to me, but masquerades as English. Where can I get > at least a good, simple glossary for the terms used in the manpages > and on the questions list? I can show you how I do it, offlist if that would help keep this list on-topic. I automate the cvsup and index process through cron jobs and scripts, but I update the ports themselves manually (I get a daily email telling me what installed ports have newer versions available), so that may or may not be what you want. As far as the technical language, you can find a great deal of information about UNIX for newbies on the web, which is a good place to start - search for UNIX glossary, or tutorial, something general like that. FreeBSD uses conventions common to all operating systems which are UNIX-based, or have POSIX standards, including Linux, so quite a bit of what applies to Linux applies to FreeBSD, although they are not the same, but Linux documentation for newbies is all over the web, some of it decent, some of it not so good, but plenty that can help if you don't understand the fundamentals. I should mention that the FreeBSD Handbook is a great source of information, and it covers quite a lot of rudimentary information in a style that's not developer-centric, at least not most of the time. Unfortunately, manpages aren't quite the same, and there is often an assumption of knowledge that makes it look foreign to people who don't have the background. But what's needed then are more people to write documentation ... Although UNIX itself is fairly technical, and you can't cover everything the user might not know in a manpage for every program, like basic system commands which the user should be familiar with in order to run the system, and which have their own manpages. The syntax used in manpages might also be confusing to you, but some basic UNIX tutorials should also cover that sort of thing, and of course there are also some excellent UNIX books which have been around for years you might find useful, many of which are available used on Amazon (you can look through comments to see what might be worthwhile, or ask here). > I asked questions here, and got yelled at, at great length. I have > not posted to this list for over a year because of that. > > Sally Hines > With a broken FreeBSD box I'm sorry to hear that. I am willing to help you fix it if possible, and if you haven't been able to get answers from the questions list. I'm still relatively new, but I've managed to install FreeBSD several times on different systems, customizing the kernel on each for hardware and different needs, and also rescue systems that seemed like lost causes at the time. If I can't help you fix it then I'll let you know and defer to the list or other forums. - jt From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 03:39:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007C516A4D1 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:39:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.oregonfast.net (ip205-38.oregonfast.net [216.110.205.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A6A7043D2F for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:39:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shines@smaller.net) Received: (qmail 45132 invoked by uid 98); 24 Dec 2004 03:39:55 -0000 Received: from ip147.kings-court.pdx.ygnition.net (HELO musal32mpxlg) (shines@smaller.net@66.199.65.147) by mail.oregonfast.net with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 03:39:55 -0000 From: "Sally Hines" To: , "'Tyler Gee'" , "'Mervin McDougall'" Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:40:04 -0800 Message-ID: <000401c4e96a$4213de20$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <000001c4e934$9290f080$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> Importance: Normal X-Spam-Rating: mail.oregonfast.net 0/1/N cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Manpage interpreter X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: shines@smaller.net List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:39:56 -0000 I want to thank everyone for offering me good information on automating the ports update. My real question, though, is how to read and understand manpages. Where is the interpreter? I know I am not the only noob to ever have this problem? I can solve my own problems much better if I can interpret the instructions. Thank you again, Sally Hines -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Sally Hines Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:16 PM To: 'Tyler Gee'; 'Mervin McDougall' Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Manpage interpreter Hi, I've been subscribing to this list for over 3 years. I initially subscribed to the -questions list also, but I couldn't handle the volume, and also couldn't interpret the language used there. I need to learn in a language that I know, or at least get an interpreter for the manpage-ese that's used in replies to questions on that list. I ask a simple question, how do I automate ports update? I get "read the manpages" or quoting from the manpages which is written in a language foreign to me, but masquerades as English. Where can I get at least a good, simple glossary for the terms used in the manpages and on the questions list? I asked questions here, and got yelled at, at great length. I have not posted to this list for over a year because of that. Sally Hines With a broken FreeBSD box _______________________________________________ freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 03:57:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB2E716A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:57:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.WPI.EDU (mail1.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573D243D1D for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:57:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from emerson@WPI.EDU) Received: from mcafee.wpi.edu (mcafee.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.86]) by mail1.WPI.EDU (8.13.2/8.13.2) with SMTP id iBO3v06G013113; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:57:00 -0500 Received: from smtp.WPI.EDU(130.215.36.186) by mcafee.wpi.edu via csmap id dc339c1e_555f_11d9_9856_00304811e63a_20733; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccc1.wpi.edu (ccc1.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.142]) by smtp.WPI.EDU (8.13.2/8.13.2) with ESMTP id iBO3uub5013773; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:56:56 -0500 Received: from ccc1.wpi.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by ccc1.wpi.edu (8.13.2/8.13.2) with ESMTP id iBO3uuru011497; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:56:56 -0500 Received: from localhost (emerson@localhost) by ccc1.wpi.edu (8.13.2/8.13.2) with ESMTP id iBO3uuBL011494; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:56:56 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: ccc1.wpi.edu: emerson owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:56:56 -0500 (EST) From: Scott Emerson Longley To: Nikolas Britton In-Reply-To: <41CB5560.3090102@nbritton.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Xian cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 03:57:04 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004, Nikolas Britton wrote: > > > Speaking of "help" I have always though this sould at least be an > > alise to man (or "man man", or "man %foo")... but what I really want a > > clone of the MSDOS 6.xx Help system of the same name, when you typed > > in help with no args. it would load a "hypertext" curses program that > > listed all the commands (like "whatis") and then you could select a > > command for detail info about it. anyways... in the DOS world you > > always type'd "help, "help foo", or "foo /?" for help so for most > > people new to unix and freebsd whatis and man are unknow to them. > > > I may have a simple solution to this: create a new man page named > "help", in this man page is a brief (newbie oriented) one page guide on > how to use the man pages and how to find commands to use (whatis / > apropos, btw who came up with that name? I could not remember it if my > life depended on it). this man page would then be aliased as "help". > what do yea think? IMO, that's a great idea. Actually, OpenBSD does it, so it might be a useful example. ( http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=help ) Not having a "help" command was a frustration to me a few years back when I had just started fooling with Unices, so I would like to see the idea catch on for the sake of all those who are in that position now. -Scott Longley From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 04:02:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B65D16A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:02:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp811.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp811.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 002F043D5F for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:02:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.26.30 with login) by smtp811.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 04:02:52 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, shines@smaller.net Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:02:49 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <000401c4e96a$4213de20$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> In-Reply-To: <000401c4e96a$4213de20$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412232002.50704.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: 'Mervin McDougall' cc: 'Tyler Gee' Subject: Re: Manpage interpreter X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:02:53 -0000 On Thursday 23 December 2004 07:40 pm, "Sally Hines" wrote: > I want to thank everyone for offering me good information on > automating the ports update. My real question, though, is how to read > and understand manpages. Where is the interpreter? I know I am not > the only noob to ever have this problem? I can solve my own problems > much better if I can interpret the instructions. I think it would help if you gave a specific example. I don't think there is any such thing as an interpreter, per se, but if there is something confusing about a manpage, you can ask. I realize you said the questions list was intimidating, but if you are very specific about what you don't understand, you can usually get an answer. It's happened to me before where someone has told me to read the manpage for a particular command or file, and I still didn't understand it, but it helps if you point out what you don't understand about it, otherwise it's sometimes difficult to answer. There are also ways to problem-solve and find the answer even when you are given confusing instructions, but it would help if you gave me a specific example of something you didn't understand to show you. - jt From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 04:23:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA6716A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:23:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.omnis.com (smtp.omnis.com [216.239.128.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5145E43D2D; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:23:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from zaphod.softweyr.com (cpe-69-75-218-19.san.rr.com [69.75.218.19]) by smtp-relay.omnis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015F9140781B; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:23:25 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr.COM To: Jeff Lewis Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:23:24 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <0CA07A3D.122A43E3.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> In-Reply-To: <0CA07A3D.122A43E3.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200412232023.25374@zaphod.softweyr.com> cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: sue@welearn.com.au cc: core@freebsd.org cc: FreeBSD-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:23:26 -0000 On Thursday 23 December 2004 12:40, Jeff Lewis wrote: > I'm a newbie, and until now, a lurker. > > I do not want this list disbanded. I believe that I belong here. Thanks, this is exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping for. > Case in point: > > I just got my hardware ready. I will be loading 4.10 on my new test > box. (5.2.1 hated the ACPI and required that I select NO ACPI from > the menu all the time.) I wanted to mirror software that my ISP uses > so I tried to find out what version of the OS they were running. > > It took me 20 minutes of googling to find the uname command. Then I > had to find the same for perl and php (easier). I never did find out > how to do this for apache. Piece of cake. The server will tell you what it's running in response a simple GET request. The way you do this is to use telnet to connect to port 80 and tell the server GET / HTTP/1.0 followed by two carriage returns. Here's a transcript, with my typing marked as C: and the server replies with S: for clarity. (The "Trying", "Connected", and "Escape" lines are printed by the telnet client.) This is being run from freefall.freebsd.org, against my server, feel free to try it yourself: C: wes@freefall$ telnet www.bsdconspiracy.net 80 Trying 69.75.218.19... Connected to softweyr.homeunix.net. Escape character is '^]'. C: GET / HTTP/1.0 S: HTTP/1.1 200 OK S: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:13:38 GMT S: Server: Apache/1.3.29 (Unix) PHP/4.3.7 mod_ssl/2.8.16 OpenSSL/0.9.7c S: Content-Location: index.html.en S: {much more output elided...} So we see that bsdconspiracy.net is run on Apache 1.3.29, along with an out-of-date, insecure version of PHP (an upgrade is in the closet right now, waiting to get finished) > But I would never have asked that question on the -questions list > because I felt stupid. I didn't ask that question here because we > aren't supposed to. And so now I've violated the list charter, too. ;^) If I knew of a good, simple FAQ that answered this, I would've pointed you to it. The problem is, somebody else is going to want this same question answered again next week, and they're not going to know to search the archives for this wonderful answer I've just given you. That's an even "better" problem to solve than simply answering your question, even if it doesn't solve your immediate problem. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 04:43:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA3B16A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:43:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.WPI.EDU (mail1.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2192E43D5F for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:43:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from emerson@WPI.EDU) Received: from mcafee.wpi.edu (mcafee.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.86]) by mail1.WPI.EDU (8.13.2/8.13.2) with SMTP id iBO4gxGq032533; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:42:59 -0500 Received: from smtp.WPI.EDU(130.215.36.186) by mcafee.wpi.edu via csmap id 32ee6d6c_5566_11d9_8010_00304811e63a_24307; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccc1.wpi.edu (ccc1.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.142]) by smtp.WPI.EDU (8.13.2/8.13.2) with ESMTP id iBO4gIuN028758; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:42:18 -0500 Received: from ccc1.wpi.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by ccc1.wpi.edu (8.13.2/8.13.2) with ESMTP id iBO4gIP8011666; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:42:18 -0500 Received: from localhost (emerson@localhost) by ccc1.wpi.edu (8.13.2/8.13.2) with ESMTP id iBO4gIvE011663; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:42:18 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: ccc1.wpi.edu: emerson owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:42:18 -0500 (EST) From: Scott Emerson Longley To: Sally Hines In-Reply-To: <000401c4e96a$4213de20$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: 'Mervin McDougall' cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org cc: 'Tyler Gee' Subject: RE: Manpage interpreter X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:43:00 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004, Sally Hines wrote: > I want to thank everyone for offering me good information on automating the > ports update. My real question, though, is how to read and understand > manpages. Where is the interpreter? I know I am not the only noob to ever > have this problem? I can solve my own problems much better if I can > interpret the instructions. > > Thank you again, > > Sally Hines Finding good documentation can be a really big challenge. I've had success with a multi-pronged approach involving many sources. However, for those times when manpages are best, I've found that there are certain sections that are immediately useful, and they're mostly near the bottom. If there's an "examples" section, it's likely to prove relevant to simple queries. If you're not sure you're looking at the right page, skip straight to the "see also" section to get your bearings. --generally, if I don't see see something at the top that seems immediately relevant, I skip straight to all the little sections at the bottom before digging into the middle. Even a one-liner "history" section has occasionally given me some context that I needed. Also, try searching the manpage for words relevent to your question (type "/", then a word). Different Unix-derived sytems have similar commands, so it might also be useful to check out their manpages, if you have access to them. Having said all that, often, the right book will save lots of time. I figure that when someone has bothered to put a cohesive chapter together that covers the subject of your question, that's worth an awful lot. The FreeBSD Handbook is the obvious choice for a book (and a good choide, I believe). If you like examples (and have non-FreeBSD-specific questions), I highly reccomend "Unix Power Tools". Also, "Absolute BSD" provides a nice refrain from the often overly-detail-oriented nature of manpages. I hope my scatter-brained answer is helpful :-) -Scott Longley From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 05:08:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7FAC16A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:08:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.oregonfast.net (ip205-38.oregonfast.net [216.110.205.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 765C943D41 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:08:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shines@smaller.net) Received: (qmail 79411 invoked by uid 98); 24 Dec 2004 05:08:51 -0000 Received: from ip147.kings-court.pdx.ygnition.net (HELO musal32mpxlg) (shines@smaller.net@66.199.65.147) by mail.oregonfast.net with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 05:08:50 -0000 From: "Sally Hines" To: "'Scott Emerson Longley'" Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:09:00 -0800 Message-ID: <000101c4e976$ae538b60$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Rating: mail.oregonfast.net 0/1/N cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Manpage interpreter X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: shines@smaller.net List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:08:52 -0000 Hi Scott, Thank you for the tips. This will be very helpful. I've instintively = tried some of this, scanning through, seeing if anything in the detailed = sections looks like it addresses any or my issues.=20 Sally Hines -----Original Message----- From: Scott Emerson Longley [mailto:emerson@WPI.EDU]=20 Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 8:42 PM To: Sally Hines Cc: 'Tyler Gee'; 'Mervin McDougall'; freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Manpage interpreter On Thu, 23 Dec 2004, Sally Hines wrote: > I want to thank everyone for offering me good information on=20 > automating the ports update. My real question, though, is how to read=20 > and understand manpages. Where is the interpreter? I know I am not the = > only noob to ever have this problem? I can solve my own problems much=20 > better if I can interpret the instructions. >=20 > Thank you again, >=20 > Sally Hines Finding good documentation can be a really big challenge. I've had = success with a multi-pronged approach involving many sources. However, for those times when manpages are best, I've found that there are certain sections that are immediately useful, and they're mostly near the bottom. If = there's an "examples" section, it's likely to prove relevant to simple queries. = If you're not sure you're looking at the right page, skip straight to the = "see also" section to get your bearings. --generally, if I don't see see something at the top that seems immediately relevant, I skip straight to = all the little sections at the bottom before digging into the middle. Even a one-liner "history" section has occasionally given me some context that = I needed. Also, try searching the manpage for words relevent to your = question (type "/", then a word). Different Unix-derived sytems have similar commands, so it might also be = useful to check out their manpages, if you have access to them.=20 Having said all that, often, the right book will save lots of time. I = figure that when someone has bothered to put a cohesive chapter together that covers the subject of your question, that's worth an awful lot. The = FreeBSD Handbook is the obvious choice for a book (and a good choide, I = believe). If you like examples (and have non-FreeBSD-specific questions), I highly reccomend "Unix Power Tools". Also, "Absolute BSD" provides a nice = refrain from the often overly-detail-oriented nature of manpages. I hope my scatter-brained answer is helpful :-) -Scott Longley From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 06:04:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50DC016A4F5 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:04:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from parts-unknown.org (dsl093-170-248.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.170.248]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D19B143D31 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:04:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from benfell@parts-unknown.org) Received: (qmail 19247 invoked by alias); 24 Dec 2004 06:04:41 -0000 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:04:41 -0800 From: David Benfell To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041224060441.GC19192@parts-unknown.org> References: <000401c4e96a$4213de20$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> <200412232002.50704.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200412232002.50704.krinklyfig@spymac.com> X-stardate: [-29]3231.09 X-moon: The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (95% of Full) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: Re: Manpage interpreter X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:04:42 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:02:49 -0800, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > > I don't think > there is any such thing as an interpreter, per se, but if there is > something confusing about a manpage, you can ask. It's even been known to happen that man pages can get revised (though I think my experience with this was with OpenBSD). -- David Benfell, LCP benfell@parts-unknown.org --- Resume available at http://www.parts-unknown.org/resume.html From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 08:52:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1490D16A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 08:52:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web61205.mail.yahoo.com (web61205.mail.yahoo.com [216.155.196.129]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9373943D39 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 08:52:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mcd_advisory@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 42739 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Dec 2004 08:52:17 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=xCz60g3F85GuNeVAYehEFpvlIx6uEg3NYsW0LH7LiRKRlhuIw9kRUDrcozmvj4HFFTpjw3QyFXHdPskIkgMCHBbRtWJieoOYtYHGLntxw0K7/M2xlXHV0hyVvdhFelqRHa2WF4u4fymAortY57AVqfQRnJXmdhFIuSUAl2dLEls= ; Message-ID: <20041224085217.42737.qmail@web61205.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.113.106.81] by web61205.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:52:16 PST Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:52:16 -0800 (PST) From: Mervin McDougall To: Nikolas Britton In-Reply-To: <41CB6020.3050805@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/71142; VESA 1024x768; (Poor Console resolution on Compaq 2103US) X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 08:52:18 -0000 Ok here are a few questions I have about how do I get this done 1. do I copy the patch exactly as is from the webpage? 2. I am not a programmer of any sorts so how do I fix lines 790, 982, and 1000? A few pointers would be fine 3. What is qp2txt and patch.eml? I think this is one instance where a simple how to would be in order for a newbie to get this done. But honestly could really use the help for those 3 problem areas before i applied this different patch. Merv --- Nikolas Britton wrote: > Mervin McDougall wrote: > > >I have one experience to share as a newbie, that of > >trying to get a proper console resolution on my > >laptop. I chose to stick with FreeBSD over > Slackware > >for my laptop for the simplicity in its init system > >and fewer init levels, its ports and packages > system > >which reduces the stress of looking for a file and > all > >its dependencies and getting it downloaded, > compiled > >and using on my laptop and basically its speed of > >booting- in 2/3 the time it takes slackware linux > to > >boot, bsd is at the loging prompt.However,getting > the > >proper console resolution was a pain as I favour > >console over X. > > > >I tried recompiling the kernel including support > for > >Vesa by including options VESA and SC_PIXEL_MODE > and > >that didn't work.I tried compiling the kernel with > >suppor for VGA_90WIDTH and that still did not > provide > >me with adequate space on my screen to get anything > >else done. My console only the center of my screen > and > >only occupied a 1/3 rd of the entire screen. I was > >very stressed until I cam across a website of > someone > >who had successfully installed FreeBSD 5.2.1 on a > >similar laptop. I contacted him and he explained > that > >he had similar problem but got over the issue by > >making use of a patch which allowed me to achieve > >screen resolutions of 1024x768. > > > >I have gotten over the problem happily but there > are > >still some issues that the patch created in making > use > >of it as slower performance in switching from > console > >to X and the printing of error information when the > >kernel is initiating vidcontrol but I get to use > >console more often thankfully. > > > >I wish that the freebsd team would look into fixing > >any errors in vidcontrol to get the problem with > >screen resolutions on laptops fixed. I was able to > do > >this with ease using linux framebuffer settings > with > >slackware but had so much difficulty getting that > done > >under freebsd 5.3. > > > >I could have chosen to give up and simply use linux > >but I like the way freebsd performs something about > it > >is just magically and wouldn't want to miss out on > >using it. I just wish somethng could be done to > better > >the performance of the system as is and get rid of > >some of those escape errors. or gett a better patch > >from the freebsd team. > > > >If anyone has a similar laptop and wants to get > some > >specifics about what works and what doesn't feel > free > >to visit > >http://demira.shopkeeper.de/~sascha/nx9005/ > >its pretty informative. > > > >Mervin McDougall > > > > > > > > > > > (For FreeBSD current mailing list and Cyrille > Lefevre): What is the > current status of this patch, is there an updated > version of this patch > that address console slowness, etc., and when will > it be MFC'd to > 5-STABLE? (5.4_RELEASE?) > ---------------- > This is a problem with most ATI RAGE cards including > my laptop (Armada > 1750, ATI Rage LT Pro) I have successfully applied > this patch to that > system and can now use 1024x768 at the console, the > patch is here: > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=kern/71142 > Please note that at Lines 790, 982, and 1000 are > hard returns that brake > the patch when run though the awk script so fix them > before you run > "qp2txt patch.eml | patch" or "patch after I fixed those > problems the patch applied cleanly to 5.3-RELEASE > and I then rebuilt my > kernel with "options VESA" and "options > SC_PIXEL_MODE" and rebuilt > vidcontrol then typed in "vidcontrol MODE_279", > after I tested that to > see if it worked, I added it to my rc.conf as > "allscreens_flags="MODE_279". > > For more info about this patch go here > http://unix.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/FreeBSD/current/2004-08/ > and > read the thread labeled "[PATCH TO TEST] VESA > [1024x768] mode support > for FreeBSD-CURRENT" (08/27/04 - 08/31/04) > > Also this resource is very helpful, The FreeBSD > Console - Living without > X: http://lickwid.ath.cx/~tlp/fbsd-console.html > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 11:48:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D063A16A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:48:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7845643D41 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:48:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041224114820i9100rffv3e>; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:48:20 +0000 Message-ID: <41CC0203.6020609@nbritton.org> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:48:19 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mervin McDougall References: <20041224085217.42737.qmail@web61205.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041224085217.42737.qmail@web61205.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/71142; VESA 1024x768; (Poor Console resolution on Compaq 2103US) X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:48:22 -0000 Disclaimer!!!: please note that this patch was never meant for newbies and that if you decide to use it you are basically on your own if you have any problems with it. This patch is very much still in alpha status, but it does work and if It breaks your system you can always back it out. >1. do I copy the patch exactly as is from the webpage? > > no, forget the patches from the webpage it's all messed up and you have to run it though scripts and edit it and stuff etc etc.... ----------------------------- Step 0: su to root. Step 1: cd into /tmp Step 2: fetch the patch: "fetch http://www.nbritton.org/uploads/current-vesa_patch.tar.gz" Alternate Source (these patches are from Deng XueFeng BTW): http://unix.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/FreeBSD/current/2004-08/att-2992/current-vesa_patch.tar.gz Step 3: Extract the files from the archive: "tar -zxvf curr*gz" Step 4: cd into /usr/src/sys/dev/syscons Step 5: patch the files: "patch > GENERIC Step 12: Add the kernel option for SC_PIXEL_MODE to your kernel: echo "options SC_PIXEL_MODE" >> GENERIC Step 13: config your kernel: config GENERIC Step 14: cd into ../compile/GENERIC Step 15: rebuild your kernel: "make depend && make && make install" Step 16: reboot (After FreeBSD reboots and loads you will see this message several times (ignore it) "vidcontrol: showing the mouse: Invalid argument") Step 17: login as root Step 18: Now change the video mode "vidcontrol MODE_279" (you should now have a console at 1024x768, if you don't you did something wrong.) Step 19: If everthing seems ok then add it to the /etc/rc.conf file: allscreens_flags="MODE_279" Step 20: reboot or do a "shutdown now" Step 21: login as a normal user, you're done, have fun :-), report any bugs your having to I think ether freebsd-current or freebsd-hackers mailing lists. you can also use "vidcontrol -i mode | grep G" to see a complete list of supported modes (this is a list of modes supported by your video card, not your monitor!) and if you want you can play with these other modes "vidcontrol MODE_modenumber" Also note that if you try to update your sources with cvsup it will overwrite the changes you made to the files so you will have to redo steps 0 though 8 again (this is how you can back out the changes if you have problems with it). From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 14:08:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F5016A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:08:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web61202.mail.yahoo.com (web61202.mail.yahoo.com [216.155.196.126]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ED1E943D1F for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:08:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mcd_advisory@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 66773 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Dec 2004 14:08:51 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=pDMbvZHsfBWcAvB56HjZHvkmQTn+PshVVVh58ruBJ9A4TOP8Ovgc1DW1fk2G2ihK0VCc4aduXV/SpRCfemuM0aniTcXU5KUCcfjuq4BHymaiaqZFDXxishXNUG1DEDGTVbYOHmjvV2AOZCL6eQyghc3WCoFYhLawM0tpSCKtLow= ; Message-ID: <20041224140851.66771.qmail@web61202.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.113.106.82] by web61202.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:08:51 PST Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:08:51 -0800 (PST) From: Mervin McDougall To: Nikolas Britton In-Reply-To: <41CC0203.6020609@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/71142; VESA 1024x768; (Poor Console resolution on Compaq 2103US) X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:08:52 -0000 This patch works better than the previous one that I had for sure ... As far as the errors with the mouse is concerned there was a thread that mentioned the problem and ways to fix it . http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/bugs/2004-04/msg00161.html have a look at this website if you have got problems with the mouse Thanks again Nikolas I sure hope these changes are made permanent in FreeBSD 5.4 and that performance can be improved in using the vesa console. Merv --- Nikolas Britton wrote: > Disclaimer!!!: please note that this patch was never > meant for newbies > and that if you decide to use it you are basically > on your own if you > have any problems with it. This patch is very much > still in alpha > status, but it does work and if It breaks your > system you can always > back it out. > > >1. do I copy the patch exactly as is from the > webpage? > > > > > no, forget the patches from the webpage it's all > messed up and you have > to run it though scripts and edit it and stuff etc > etc.... > ----------------------------- > Step 0: su to root. > Step 1: cd into /tmp > Step 2: fetch the patch: "fetch > http://www.nbritton.org/uploads/current-vesa_patch.tar.gz" > > Alternate Source (these patches are from Deng > XueFeng BTW): > http://unix.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/FreeBSD/current/2004-08/att-2992/current-vesa_patch.tar.gz > > Step 3: Extract the files from the archive: "tar > -zxvf curr*gz" > Step 4: cd into /usr/src/sys/dev/syscons > Step 5: patch the files: "patch > sure this applies > cleanly, no error messages!) > Step 6: cd into /usr/src/usr.sbin/vidcontrol > (usr.sbin is not a typo) > Step 7: Copy the file current-vidcontrol.1 here: > "cp > /tmp/current-vesa_patch/current-vidcontrol.1 > ./vidcontrol.1" > Step 8: Copy the file current-vidcontrol.c here: > "cp > /tmp/current-vesa_patch/current-vidcontrol.c > ./vidcontrol.c" > Step 9: while your in there rebuild vidcontrol: > "make && make install && > make clean" > Step 10: cd into /usr/src/sys/i386/conf > (if you have never done this before then your kernel > will be "GENERIC", > if you have then you don't need me to explain what > to do) > Step 11: Add the kernel option for VESA support to > your kernel: echo > "options VESA" >> GENERIC > Step 12: Add the kernel option for SC_PIXEL_MODE to > your kernel: echo > "options SC_PIXEL_MODE" >> GENERIC > Step 13: config your kernel: config GENERIC > Step 14: cd into ../compile/GENERIC > Step 15: rebuild your kernel: "make depend && make > && make install" > Step 16: reboot > (After FreeBSD reboots and loads you will see this > message several times > (ignore it) "vidcontrol: showing the mouse: Invalid > argument") > Step 17: login as root > Step 18: Now change the video mode "vidcontrol > MODE_279" > (you should now have a console at 1024x768, if you > don't you did > something wrong.) > Step 19: If everthing seems ok then add it to the > /etc/rc.conf file: > allscreens_flags="MODE_279" > Step 20: reboot or do a "shutdown now" > Step 21: login as a normal user, you're done, have > fun :-), report any > bugs your having to I think ether freebsd-current or > freebsd-hackers > mailing lists. > > you can also use "vidcontrol -i mode | grep G" to > see a complete list of > supported modes (this is a list of modes supported > by your video card, > not your monitor!) and if you want you can play with > these other modes > "vidcontrol MODE_modenumber" > > Also note that if you try to update your sources > with cvsup it will > overwrite the changes you made to the files so you > will have to redo > steps 0 though 8 again (this is how you can back out > the changes if you > have problems with it). > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 15:00:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A198416A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 15:00:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from aiolos.otenet.gr (aiolos.otenet.gr [195.170.0.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33E643D53 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 15:00:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b238.otenet.gr [212.205.244.246]) iBOF0NNX027214; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:00:25 +0200 Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBOF0MnV001820; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:00:22 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBOF0MIp001819; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:00:22 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:00:22 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: David Benfell Message-ID: <20041224150022.GB1699@gothmog.gr> References: <000401c4e96a$4213de20$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> <200412232002.50704.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <20041224060441.GC19192@parts-unknown.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041224060441.GC19192@parts-unknown.org> cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Manpage interpreter X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 15:00:29 -0000 On 2004-12-23 22:04, David Benfell wrote: > On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:02:49 -0800, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > > I don't think there is any such thing as an interpreter, per se, but > > if there is something confusing about a manpage, you can ask. > > It's even been known to happen that man pages can get revised (though > I think my experience with this was with OpenBSD). This happens with FreeBSD all the time too. When something is confusing, and the freebsd-doc team learns about it, we do try to reword the confusing parts, even rewrite entire sections of the manpages. The important bit here is that we have to be told what *is* confusing :) - Giorgos From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 20:41:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D4316A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:41:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com (imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE03243D5E; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:41:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jlewis1957@netscape.net) Received: from jlewis1957@netscape.net by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id n.1b4.d0556ba (16239); Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:40:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from netscape.net (mow-m07.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.135]) by air-in03.mx.aol.com (v103.7) with ESMTP id MAILININ33-3f6f41cb2d5620d; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:40:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:40:54 -0500 From: jlewis1957@netscape.net (Jeff Lewis) To: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org, grog@FreeBSD.org, sue@welearn.com.au, wes@softweyr.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <0CA07A3D.122A43E3.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 67.106.161.243 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:33:20 +0000 cc: core@FreeBSD.org Subject: re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:41:04 -0000 I'm a newbie, and until now, a lurker. I do not want this list disbanded. I believe that I belong here. I do like reading/learning from the questions asked/answered, and am mildly disappointed when I see the person referred to the -questions list. I understand the original charter of the list. I see little that truly DOES follow the charter. I do NOT however believe that I can "run with the big dogs" on the -questions list. The sheer volume alone makes it impossible for me to filter out what I will grasp (I am a lurker) as many of the questions are over my head, let alone the follow-up and answers. At best, I can only google for keywords when I have a question, or post one myself. I have posted on some Red Hat linux -questions lists with pretty sad results. I applaud you Greg for bringing this subject up as it really does need some discussion. And trying to stand in your shoes for just a moment, I appreciate your concern for folks asking questions and not getting answers, or worse, getting an incorrect answer from another newbie. And I thank you for that. I'd like to broaden the discussion, just a little. You suggested disbanding the list. I would suggest modifying the charter. I've tried several times to figure out how to word this question nicely, and it always comes off smug. It's not how I mean it, but here goes anyway. Who does this list serve? If it serves the Experienced by documenting the newbie experience or even just segregating newbie discussions, then your suggestion of disbanding the list may indeed be the right one. There doesn't seem to be alot of that happening here. We are noobs, just not prolific ones. I will assume that you want all the Newbie questions on the -questions list rather than here because THAT is where those willing to take the time to answer them are. Not at all an unreasonable request. But if this list serves the Newbies, and we (the Newbies) would like to have questions answered here, then maybe it is time to modify the charter. The PROBLEM with this is that the relationship is a one-way symbiotic relationship. Newbies asking question won't get very far without the Willing Experienced. Perhaps the REAL underlying question to this whole discussion is, "What are we going to do with the Newbies?" - or - "What are we going to do for the Newbies?" And please note: the "WE" referenced above is an eclectic group of dedicated individuals that know FreeBSD and are willing spend time with those of us that don't know it. The ability and desire to teach is often a lot more difficult than you might think -- and doubly so on a mailing list where you cannot tell what the person's existing knowledge or background is. Wes Peters just posted the following question: "Come on, newbies, let's hear YOUR ideas on how to get better answers for your questions." Sir, I'd like to ask my newbie questions here and I really do appreciate hearing from experieced FreeBSD users. If this isn't feasible, then how can I ask question properly on the -questions list so that folks answering them will not assume that I understand alot. Prefixing the subject line with NEWBIE could work. Will it also mean that it will be ignored by most? Case in point: I just got my hardware ready. I will be loading 4.10 on my new test box. (5.2.1 hated the ACPI and required that I select NO ACPI from the menu all the time.) I wanted to mirror software that my ISP uses so I tried to find out what version of the OS they were running. It took me 20 minutes of googling to find the uname command. Then I had to find the same for perl and php (easier). I never did find out how to do this for apache. But I would never have asked that question on the -questions list because I felt stupid. I didn't ask that question here because we aren't supposed to. Jeff __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 17:01:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0424316A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:01:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web52104.mail.yahoo.com (web52104.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7019B43D1F for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:01:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ron_maggio2004@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 25669 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Dec 2004 17:01:09 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=NTmGCxrZS0J8sEIz3Lz1mSo5q0mpQ0kqLu8lhMZeM9kQclEH4zGo283mErAU31cX9qW+tOcAtGTEqaC+POh5iuVamOro6ns7SGVe0bQP+YjOK8TBFpe+mPtsfD39mrIJKKk3ZnjkxYozOoNzGHVdzCqpGJE+jMi2dp8AaWIC7UE= ; Message-ID: <20041224170109.25667.qmail@web52104.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [129.44.251.218] by web52104.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:01:09 PST Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:01:09 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Maggio To: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <0CA07A3D.122A43E3.0F75C5EC@netscape.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:01:12 -0000 Thanks, Jeff I could not state it any better myself! Ron Maggio:) Jeff Lewis wrote: I'm a newbie, and until now, a lurker. I do not want this list disbanded. I believe that I belong here. I do like reading/learning from the questions asked/answered, and am mildly disappointed when I see the person referred to the -questions list. I understand the original charter of the list. I see little that truly DOES follow the charter. I do NOT however believe that I can "run with the big dogs" on the -questions list. The sheer volume alone makes it impossible for me to filter out what I will grasp (I am a lurker) as many of the questions are over my head, let alone the follow-up and answers. At best, I can only google for keywords when I have a question, or post one myself. I have posted on some Red Hat linux -questions lists with pretty sad results. I applaud you Greg for bringing this subject up as it really does need some discussion. And trying to stand in your shoes for just a moment, I appreciate your concern for folks asking questions and not getting answers, or worse, getting an incorrect answer from another newbie. And I thank you for that. I'd like to broaden the discussion, just a little. You suggested disbanding the list. I would suggest modifying the charter. I've tried several times to figure out how to word this question nicely, and it always comes off smug. It's not how I mean it, but here goes anyway. Who does this list serve? If it serves the Experienced by documenting the newbie experience or even just segregating newbie discussions, then your suggestion of disbanding the list may indeed be the right one. There doesn't seem to be alot of that happening here. We are noobs, just not prolific ones. I will assume that you want all the Newbie questions on the -questions list rather than here because THAT is where those willing to take the time to answer them are. Not at all an unreasonable request. But if this list serves the Newbies, and we (the Newbies) would like to have questions answered here, then maybe it is time to modify the charter. The PROBLEM with this is that the relationship is a one-way symbiotic relationship. Newbies asking question won't get very far without the Willing Experienced. Perhaps the REAL underlying question to this whole discussion is, "What are we going to do with the Newbies?" - or - "What are we going to do for the Newbies?" And please note: the "WE" referenced above is an eclectic group of dedicated individuals that know FreeBSD and are willing spend time with those of us that don't know it. The ability and desire to teach is often a lot more difficult than you might think -- and doubly so on a mailing list where you cannot tell what the person's existing knowledge or background is. Wes Peters just posted the following question: "Come on, newbies, let's hear YOUR ideas on how to get better answers for your questions." Sir, I'd like to ask my newbie questions here and I really do appreciate hearing from experieced FreeBSD users. If this isn't feasible, then how can I ask question properly on the -questions list so that folks answering them will not assume that I understand alot. Prefixing the subject line with NEWBIE could work. Will it also mean that it will be ignored by most? Case in point: I just got my hardware ready. I will be loading 4.10 on my new test box. (5.2.1 hated the ACPI and required that I select NO ACPI from the menu all the time.) I wanted to mirror software that my ISP uses so I tried to find out what version of the OS they were running. It took me 20 minutes of googling to find the uname command. Then I had to find the same for perl and php (easier). I never did find out how to do this for apache. But I would never have asked that question on the -questions list because I felt stupid. I didn't ask that question here because we aren't supposed to. Jeff __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp _______________________________________________ freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 17:25:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CBC416A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:25:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web52103.mail.yahoo.com (web52103.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.72]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BD4CF43D2F for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:25:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ron_maggio2004@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 85640 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Dec 2004 17:25:22 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=mKRX8rYfzltWHNP+3PqL2dYAf9rAhGTw8VMeUGWunKs7bfQgeIwbZHisSirIvH3tbxTU//kn0HPcgcdWLJ0vFaPyCiuT/jGl/YWhAEz0uxcgSurJjHVFK2qunqufr0RRvT0cAaWVIZJgJ464kGk1ALKq0Rh5X9cfHht/20aujYc= ; Message-ID: <20041224172522.85638.qmail@web52103.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [129.44.251.218] by web52103.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:25:22 PST Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:25:22 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Maggio To: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: Vary inspiring X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:25:23 -0000 Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 04:01:56 +1100 From:"Luke Roberts" To:Subject:re: Time to shut down this list? (Annual Leave) [input] [input] [input] I'm on Holidays. Yay! I will be back at work on the 4th of Jan. If you have an urgent IT catastrophe that needs dealing with give Greg a call.Have a safe and happy Christmas and New Year.cheers, This I got as a email off the list. This is often the result on list-servers when one makes a statement and is a newbie. The only problem is how to take it? "If you have an urgent IT catastrophe that needs dealing with give Greg a call" You tell me? I've been a computer user since the first advent of the Intel 8088 chip So I don't see the humor here. Ron Maggio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo! From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 17:31:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B3BD16A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:31:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freeode.co.uk (freeode.co.uk [213.162.123.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54F4443D1D; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:31:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sub01@freeode.co.uk) Received: from lexx (lexx.freeode.co.uk [10.253.253.2]) by mail.freeode.co.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBOHVECZ041060; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:31:15 GMT (envelope-from sub01@freeode.co.uk) From: John Murphy To: newbies@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:31:14 +0000 Message-ID: <389os09qg2bkfo7jsvisrmf821fp7h3kr5@4ax.com> References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <41CABC20.9090203@savaka.com> <200412231107.51075@zaphod.softweyr.com> <41CB2382.4040802@att.net> In-Reply-To: <41CB2382.4040802@att.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: sub01@freeode.co.uk List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:31:17 -0000 "Jay O'Brien" wrote: >You ask newbies to respond; "how to get better answers?". How about a search engine >that provides useful responses to newbie questions? I get much better and more >useful responses from google than I do at the http://www.freebsd.org/search/page. I certainly agree. The freebsd mailing list search rarely seems to provide useful answers and, as the google mailing.freebsd search has disappeared, the need to improve it is greater than before. In the mean time a google search of docs.freebsd.org (phrase to search site:docs.freebsd.org) helps. >You didn't ask about -questions, but I'm going to answer anyway. The folks on >-questions are better, faster, friendlier and more accurate than any paid >support staff I've ever encountered. I'm pleased to be associated, if only in >a small way, with such a dedicated and committed team. True. And those who feel intimidated by the volume of posts can use it quite effectively without subscribing. Replies are ~always CC'd to the OP and the current messages are browseable at: http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/current/freebsd-questions.html As for whether the newbies list should be closed down, I don't see that anything would be gained by doing so. If the main fear is that newbie answers are sometimes misleading/incorrect then this could be fixed by convincing a few of the kind souls who man the questions list to also subscribe to this one. It is *very* low volume most of the time. OTOH would anyone expect perfect answers on a newbie list? Perhaps all messages addressed to newbies@ should automatically go to questions@. The subject field could be prepended with [newbies] and the extra volume would hardly be noticed and would be similar to that caused by closing this list. We should consider changing the charter or the name instead of closure. Would newbie-chat@ better indicate what the list is for? -- Merry Christmas all, John. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 17:32:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844E816A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:32:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fed1rmmtao05.cox.net (fed1rmmtao05.cox.net [68.230.241.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1686943D46 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:32:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marella@hawaii.rr.com) Received: from localhost ([68.8.243.244]) by fed1rmmtao05.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20041224173156.KMAY16028.fed1rmmtao05.cox.net@localhost> for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:31:56 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 07:27:14 -1000 From: Robert Marella To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041224072714.4be79f48@localhost> In-Reply-To: <200412231852.29773.krinklyfig@spymac.com> References: <001001c4e95f$6b30c620$142a15ac@spud> <200412231852.29773.krinklyfig@spymac.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.13 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:32:04 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:52:29 -0800 Joshua Tinnin wrote: > but since I brought it up, I'm willing to offer > to do that. I do have extensive experience moderating email lists. But > I also think that this list would "work" better if it had a slightly > different charter which allowed for entry-level tech questions, and a > clause that reiterates all users should be polite to people who ask > what might seem like silly questions. I also think this would work but any moderator should be extremely familiar with what is going on at the -questions list. Whenever possible, rather than giving a straight answer, the moderator or other respondants should show a link to where the question is answered or is currently being discussed on -questions, -stable, -ports, etc. This would have the additional benefit of weaning the (us) newbies off of htis list and making them (us) more comfortable with the other resources. Mele Kalikimaka Robert From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 18:52:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76E9116A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 18:52:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1693143D1D; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 18:52:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041224185227i92002bflte>; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 18:52:31 +0000 Message-ID: <41CC656A.6060406@nbritton.org> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:52:26 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sub01@freeode.co.uk References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <41CABC20.9090203@savaka.com> <200412231107.51075@zaphod.softweyr.com> <41CB2382.4040802@att.net> <389os09qg2bkfo7jsvisrmf821fp7h3kr5@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <389os09qg2bkfo7jsvisrmf821fp7h3kr5@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: core@freebsd.org cc: newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 18:52:34 -0000 John Murphy wrote: >I certainly agree. The freebsd mailing list search rarely seems to provide >useful answers and, as the google mailing.freebsd search has disappeared, the >need to improve it is greater than before. In the mean time a google search >of docs.freebsd.org (phrase to search site:docs.freebsd.org) helps. > > This will fix all your googling problems, bookmark it on your toolbar: http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?&as_ugroup=*.freebsd.* > > >If the main fear is that newbie >answers are sometimes misleading/incorrect then this could be fixed by >convincing a few of the kind souls who man the questions list to also >subscribe to this one. > > This is a good idea, they can use a hands off approach and if a "newbie" gives bad advice they can step in and set things strait and also advise when questions should be sent to questions. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 19:09:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3492316A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:09:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.oregonfast.net (mail.oregonfast.net [216.110.205.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CEA6343D31 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:09:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shines@smaller.net) Received: (qmail 8403 invoked by uid 98); 24 Dec 2004 19:09:53 -0000 Received: from ip147.kings-court.pdx.ygnition.net (HELO musal32mpxlg) (shines@smaller.net@66.199.65.147) by mail.oregonfast.net with SMTP; 24 Dec 2004 19:09:53 -0000 From: "Sally Hines" To: "'Robert Marella'" , Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:09:58 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c4e9ec$2aae0da0$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20041224072714.4be79f48@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Rating: mail.oregonfast.net 0/1/N Subject: RE: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: shines@smaller.net List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:09:54 -0000 A link to the post where the question is answered would be wonderful. In the past I've received, and seen, simply "Take your question to the -questions list" or "Go find the answer on -questions list". Often I won't recognize the answer to my question because I will think of the question in different terms than the previous asker. Sally Hines -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Robert Marella Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 9:27 AM To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? show a link to where the question is answered or is currently being discussed on -questions, -stable, -ports, etc. This would have the additional benefit of weaning the (us) newbies off of htis list and making them (us) more comfortable with the other resources. Mele Kalikimaka Robert _______________________________________________ freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 19:10:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E7C16A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:10:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web61203.mail.yahoo.com (web61203.mail.yahoo.com [216.155.196.127]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F3CDC43D1F for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:10:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mcd_advisory@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 90330 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Dec 2004 19:10:05 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=usBl/JpYUlqQ1T99T2P068uq2jvddA2mcij8aH5339gx67vhq4Ab52TAarQSgGfMd0Y/8zawxiOMSPKd15QwUSBCn7mHjdjmlM9yKZFLZApCm2811qm19vS94i+IvMLXFUQ+TOuC9XMBQoK0OTP4zMAO6jNYgvtKjnj7DthyC9o= ; Message-ID: <20041224191005.90328.qmail@web61203.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.28.117.128] by web61203.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:10:05 PST Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:10:05 -0800 (PST) From: Mervin McDougall To: Nikolas Britton In-Reply-To: <41CC656A.6060406@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:10:06 -0000 Perhaps the best way to look at this is in a canonical form. The mailing list for newbies can be used as an entry level for all newbie questions and as the questions are scrutinized by more experienced persons in the newbies mailing list they can be directed to other mailing lists if the problem seems too complex to be addressed in the newbies mailing list. I assume further information can be provided to the newbie So newbies would be more like a you are here starting point, and the other mailing lists would be where you need to go to answer all other questions if the are too complex to be answered in newbies. Nikolas Britton wrote: John Murphy wrote: >I certainly agree. The freebsd mailing list search rarely seems to provide >useful answers and, as the google mailing.freebsd search has disappeared, the >need to improve it is greater than before. In the mean time a google search >of docs.freebsd.org (phrase to search site:docs.freebsd.org) helps. > > This will fix all your googling problems, bookmark it on your toolbar: http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?&as_ugroup=*.freebsd.* > > >If the main fear is that newbie >answers are sometimes misleading/incorrect then this could be fixed by >convincing a few of the kind souls who man the questions list to also >subscribe to this one. > > This is a good idea, they can use a hands off approach and if a "newbie" gives bad advice they can step in and set things strait and also advise when questions should be sent to questions. _______________________________________________ freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 19:10:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EDCF16A4DE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:10:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE68C43D41 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:10:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sue@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (sue@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBOJALmT070319 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:10:21 GMT (envelope-from sue@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from sue@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBOJALH1070318 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:10:21 GMT (envelope-from sue) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:10:21 GMT From: Sue Blake Message-Id: <200412241910.iBOJALH1070318@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Newbies FAK X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:10:22 -0000 FreeBSD-Newbies First Aid Kit This is a regular posting to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. It is also available at http://people.freebsd.org/~sue/newbies/fak.html FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG is the place to send all questions about installing, configuring, running and using FreeBSD. All help requests are handled by FreeBSD-Questions, including newbies questions. It is particularly important to send all installation questions and answers to FreeBSD-Questions so that they only appear in one place. FreeBSD-Newbies is different. We don't ask for FreeBSD help or answer how-to questions. It is a discussion forum for newbies. FreeBSD-Newbies provides a place for new FreeBSD users to meet and covers any of the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD community. We take our problems and support questions to freebsd-questions, and use freebsd-newbies to meet others who are doing the same things that we do as newbies. We can help people to use the FreeBSD mailing lists and resources, or to interact more productively with the broader FreeBSD community. These are not support questions, and not technical, so we deal with them here. Everyone can help with these new user orientation requests. One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: When something doesn't work the way you expect 1. First look at the errata for your release of FreeBSD at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/releases/ for the latest information and security advisories. 2. Search the Handbook, FAQ, and mail archives at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/search/search.html 3. If you still have a question or problem, collect the output of `uname -a' and of any relevant program(s) and email your question to FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. Mailing lists When you have a problem that you can't solve by yourself, there's only one support mailing list and that's FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. FreeBSD-questions helps with installation and basic setup as well as more general and advanced questions. You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to you personally as well as to the list. Just make sure you have read and followed the guidelines for posting, because you might find them different to what you're used to. If you do subscribe to freebsd-questions you'll have the advantage of seeing all of the recent questions and their answers. Before you post to FreeBSD-questions, please read the guidelines at http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Many of the people who answer FreeBSD-questions are very knowledgeable, but they get frustrated when they get questions which are difficult to understand. http://www.lemis.com/email.html is worth reading too. If you're not sure that you can follow these guidelines, come back and ask the other newbies for help on how to post an effective question to the support mailing list. Maybe your question has been asked before. If you search the mailing list archives at http://www.freebsd.org/search/search.html first you might get the answer right away. It's always worth trying. Other mailing lists (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-CHARTERS) cover specialised areas and many are more developer-oriented. You'll need to read their charters carefully before participating, but it's probably a good idea to ask on either -newbies or -questions for advice about where to post a more specialised question. FreeBSD-announce is a very low volume read-only list for occasional announcements, such as notice of new releases, and the Really Quick Newsletter. It's worth subscribing to FreeBSD-announce too. Manuals You'll always be expected to show that you have made some effort to use the available documentation before asking for help. That's not always as easy as it sounds! If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right direction. Anyone interested in writing or reviewing documentation for FreeBSD is encouraged to join the FreeBSD Documentation Project. Details are at http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/docproj.html Other resources A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/projects/newbies.html to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant information quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and links to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If you have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. But I have seen people asking questions here! It is quite common for people to send the wrong kind of post to a mailing list. Because we're newbies it'll certainly happen here from time to time. The best thing to do if you see a message that doesn't belong on a list is to ignore it. There's always someone around whose job it is to sort these problems out privately. The posts to the lists go straight through, whatever their content. It is going to be confusing for a little while because we're all newbies so we all make mistakes. That's OK. One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting questions, believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the situation will snowball. There's nothing wrong with helping someone to redirect their question to freebsd-questions, but please do so gently. There's nothing wrong with the occasional mistake either. So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to freebsd-questions as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies can relax with other newbies and focus more on our successes than on our temporary imperfection. We can talk about things here that are not allowed on freebsd-questions. We're also a bit freer to make the mistakes that we need to make in order to learn. _________________________________________________________________ Mailing list membership To Subscribe to FreeBSD-Newbies: Use the easy form at http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies to subscribe to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list, or to change your subscription details if you are already a member. To Unsubscribe from FreeBSD-Newbies: To stop receiving list emails, simply follow the unsubscribe link that appears at the bottom of each email you receive from the mailing list. Mail sent to freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org is distributed to all members of the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. _________________________________________________________________ From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 19:25:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 649BE16A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:25:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web61204.mail.yahoo.com (web61204.mail.yahoo.com [216.155.196.128]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E8A7B43D1D for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:25:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mcd_advisory@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 69176 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Dec 2004 19:25:19 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Xwpe7O4uUnn2pWlxmPVc4JvqOS56eFxRu3cahoUjM4WKn6h/oEmbe02otH3QH1QbcX0NFPNshsUjSQDV0CcOaQo3mhS3HymTfR9+JcoZGzCqR4v8E+li9lm85zx1dIOvf5RD3UjGn0pNqN6w2WkINutpfdHisfrVPj6xIMwUy3M= ; Message-ID: <20041224192519.69174.qmail@web61204.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.28.117.128] by web61204.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:25:19 PST Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:25:19 -0800 (PST) From: Mervin McDougall To: freebsd-newbies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Password revelation X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:25:20 -0000 Here is something I noticed when installing freebsd 5.3 on my laptop. At the point where Freebsd asks whether you want to make any users and presents you with the screen where you can add users to your system during the installation process, I noticed that after entering the password...you can reveal the password by simply pressing the back arrow. I am not sure if that is true on all bsd installations but while installing 5.3 I noticed that though the keys were concealed with asterisks when typing , pressing the back arrow revealed the keys that were pressed and the password for the new user. I think its best that the admin be nowhere next to the user if he is setting up an account for him/her --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 19:35:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B6C016A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:35:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from aiolos.otenet.gr (aiolos.otenet.gr [195.170.0.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7028443D58 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:35:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-a130.otenet.gr [212.205.215.130]) iBOJYxm6030422; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:35:00 +0200 Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBOJYxxF086115; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:34:59 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBOJYuCr086111; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:34:56 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:34:56 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Mervin McDougall Message-ID: <20041224193456.GB67543@gothmog.gr> References: <20041224192519.69174.qmail@web61204.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041224192519.69174.qmail@web61204.mail.yahoo.com> cc: freebsd-newbies Subject: Re: Password revelation X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:35:04 -0000 On 2004-12-24 11:25, Mervin McDougall wrote: > Here is something I noticed when installing freebsd 5.3 on my > laptop. At the point where Freebsd asks whether you want to make any > users and presents you with the screen where you can add users to your > system during the installation process, I noticed that after entering > the password...you can reveal the password by simply pressing the back > arrow. I am not sure if that is true on all bsd installations but > while installing 5.3 I noticed that though the keys were concealed > with asterisks when typing , pressing the back arrow revealed the keys > that were pressed and the password for the new user. Ooops! This sounds like a bug in the way sysinstall works. Are you familiar with the Gnats database of FreeBSD problem reports? I think you should file a bug report describing this. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 19:37:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B61616A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:37:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB0BD43D31 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:37:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041224193732i9100rfl2qe>; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:37:34 +0000 Message-ID: <41CC6FFB.10408@nbritton.org> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:37:31 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas References: <000401c4e96a$4213de20$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> <200412232002.50704.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <20041224060441.GC19192@parts-unknown.org> <20041224150022.GB1699@gothmog.gr> In-Reply-To: <20041224150022.GB1699@gothmog.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: David Benfell cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Manpage interpreter X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:37:35 -0000 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >On 2004-12-23 22:04, David Benfell wrote: > > >>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:02:49 -0800, Joshua Tinnin wrote: >> >> >>>I don't think there is any such thing as an interpreter, per se, but >>>if there is something confusing about a manpage, you can ask. >>> >>> >>It's even been known to happen that man pages can get revised (though >>I think my experience with this was with OpenBSD). >> >> > >This happens with FreeBSD all the time too. When something is >confusing, and the freebsd-doc team learns about it, we do try to reword >the confusing parts, even rewrite entire sections of the manpages. > >The important bit here is that we have to be told what *is* confusing :) > >- Giorgos > > > Ok here you go, 1. The man page for nice is misleading, it says to use "nice -n num# command" but we all know that won't work "nice: Badly formed number." it should say "nice -/+num# command" 2. Secion 7.2.3 (Utilizing Multiple Sound Sources) implies that hw.snd.maxautovchans is only usefull for kernel loadable sound modules, this is not true: "To set the number of virtual channels, there are two sysctl knobs which, if you are the root user, can be set like this: # sysctl hw.snd.pcm0.vchans=4 # sysctl hw.snd.maxautovchans=4 The above example allocates four virtual channels, which is a practical number for everyday use. hw.snd.pcm0.vchans is the number of virtual channels pcm0 has, and is configurable once a device has been attached. hw.snd.maxautovchans is the number of virtual channels a new audio device is given when it is attached using kldload(8). Since the pcm module can be loaded independently of the hardware drivers, hw.snd.maxautovchans can store how many virtual channels any devices which are attached later will be given." From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 19:47:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 874B516A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:47:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rosebud.otenet.gr (rosebud.otenet.gr [195.170.0.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B5E43D2D for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:47:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-a130.otenet.gr [212.205.215.130]) iBOJlSCi020723; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:47:31 +0200 Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBOJlRgc092492; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:47:27 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBOJlRGC092491; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:47:27 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:47:27 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Nikolas Britton Message-ID: <20041224194727.GA88657@gothmog.gr> References: <000401c4e96a$4213de20$6400a8c0@musal32mpxlg> <200412232002.50704.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <20041224060441.GC19192@parts-unknown.org> <20041224150022.GB1699@gothmog.gr> <41CC6FFB.10408@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41CC6FFB.10408@nbritton.org> cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Manpage interpreter X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:47:37 -0000 On 2004-12-24 13:37, Nikolas Britton wrote: >Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >>>It's even been known to happen that man pages can get revised (though >>>I think my experience with this was with OpenBSD). >> >> This happens with FreeBSD all the time too. When something is >> confusing, and the freebsd-doc team learns about it, we do try to >> reword the confusing parts, even rewrite entire sections of the >> manpages. >> >> The important bit here is that we have to be told what *is* confusing :) > > 1. The man page for nice is misleading, it says to use "nice -n num# > command" but we all know that won't work "nice: Badly formed number." it > should say "nice -/+num# command" What version of FreeBSD are you using? The manpage matches the behavior of the utility here, but this is FreeBSD 6.0-CURRENT. % $ nice -n 12 ls -l /dev/null % crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 2, 2 Dec 24 21:40 /dev/null % % $ nice -n +12 ls -l /dev/null % crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 2, 2 Dec 24 21:40 /dev/null % % $ nice -n -12 ls -l /dev/null % nice: setpriority: Permission denied % crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 2, 2 Dec 24 21:40 /dev/null The manpage also says: % COMPATIBILITY % The traditional -increment option has been deprecated but is % still supported. > 2. Secion 7.2.3 (Utilizing Multiple Sound Sources) implies that > hw.snd.maxautovchans is only usefull for kernel loadable sound modules, > this is not true: > > "To set the number of virtual channels, there are two sysctl knobs > which, if you are the root user, can be set like this: > > # sysctl hw.snd.pcm0.vchans=4 > # sysctl hw.snd.maxautovchans=4 > > The above example allocates four virtual channels, which is a practical > number for everyday use. hw.snd.pcm0.vchans is the number of virtual > channels pcm0 has, and is configurable once a device has been attached. > hw.snd.maxautovchans is the number of virtual channels a new audio > device is given when it is attached using kldload(8). Since the pcm > module can be loaded independently of the hardware drivers, > hw.snd.maxautovchans can store how many virtual channels any devices > which are attached later will be given." I see. Do you think it's ok if I mention attaching at boot time too, e.g. like this? The above example allocates four virtual channels, which is a practical number for everyday use. hw.snd.pcm0.vchans is the number of virtual channels pcm0 has, and is configurable once a device has been attached. hw.snd.maxautovchans is the number of virtual - channels a new audio device is given when it is attached using - kldload(8). + channels a new audio device is given when it is attached at boot + time or when loaded as a module with kldload(8). Does this seem better? :-) - Giorgos From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 20:26:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7486316A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 20:26:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freeode.co.uk (freeode.co.uk [213.162.123.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1CB743D41 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 20:26:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sub01@freeode.co.uk) Received: from lexx (lexx.freeode.co.uk [10.253.253.2]) by mail.freeode.co.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBOKQvCZ041488 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 20:26:57 GMT (envelope-from sub01@freeode.co.uk) From: John Murphy To: newbies@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 20:26:57 +0000 Message-ID: <87sos05v1cfmm556eqv0voa2udpkv7jppg@4ax.com> References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <41CABC20.9090203@savaka.com> <200412231107.51075@zaphod.softweyr.com> <41CB2382.4040802@att.net> <389os09qg2bkfo7jsvisrmf821fp7h3kr5@4ax.com> <41CC656A.6060406@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: <41CC656A.6060406@nbritton.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: sub01@freeode.co.uk List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 20:26:59 -0000 Nikolas Britton wrote: >John Murphy wrote: > >>I certainly agree. The freebsd mailing list search rarely seems to provide >>useful answers and, as the google mailing.freebsd search has disappeared, the >>need to improve it is greater than before. In the mean time a google search >>of docs.freebsd.org (phrase to search site:docs.freebsd.org) helps. >> >> >This will fix all your googling problems, bookmark it on your toolbar: >http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?&as_ugroup=*.freebsd.* I found that by changing the URL slightly to: http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?&as_ugroup=mailing.freebsd.questions I can even search just the questions list again, or any other BSD list google archives with a little modification. Thanks Nikolas, it's like an early Christmas prezzy :) -- John. From owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 25 02:17:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901D616A4CE; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 02:17:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lakermmtao01.cox.net (lakermmtao01.cox.net [68.230.240.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7C4743D2F; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 02:17:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from turnermail@cox.net) Received: from [192.168.43.107] (really [68.100.44.32]) by lakermmtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20041225021749.KLAS27357.lakermmtao01.cox.net@[192.168.43.107]>; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:17:49 -0500 Message-ID: <41CCCDF6.6000306@cox.net> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:18:30 -0500 From: "Gary D. Turner" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey References: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20041223063731.GW53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Sue Blake cc: FreeBSD Core Team cc: FreeBSD-newbies@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Time to shut down this list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Gathering place for new users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 02:17:57 -0000 Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >Most (all?) of the traffic on -newbies lately has been of technical >nature. That's not surprising, but there are a number of reasons why >it's not a good idea: > >1. It's not the original charter of the mailing list. For reference: > > This list is a gathering place for people new to FreeBSD. > Please feel free to share your experiences with others on this > list. > > Support questions should be sent to > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. Technical questions should be > sent to freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org. (NOT to the newbies list > please) > > Full info and FAK http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/ > > Please read the info and FAK. They contain important information > regarding the purpose and use of this mailing list. > >2. There's already a mailing list for technical questions, as > mentioned above: FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.org. > >3. Most of the experienced people on the FreeBSD-questions list don't > read -newbies. If they do, they've been told not to answer > technical questions there. > >The result: ask a question on -newbies and you're less likely to get >an answer. If you do get an answer, it's less likely to be correct. >In either case, people on the -questions mailing list are not going to >see the answer, so even if the answer is correct, it's of less use to >the community at large. > >I'd suggest that we slowly disband this list (over a period of, say, >two weeks). There are plenty of other FreeBSD mailing lists, and it's >up to you to join them. If you're interested in technical issues, >-questions is the obvious one to join. > >Comments? >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > > Greg, Where you having a bad day when you wrote this? Have you been around structure so long that you forget; sometimes asking the question out of context can yield a wealth of knewledge. Either way I am a newbie who will get the answer from wherever I find it. I am sure you have a valid reason for writing this but geewizzzz....................let the bits flow and don't bogart the list man. From someone who hopes to see this list continue, Gary