From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 27 10:55:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037F616A4CE for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:55:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq3.home.nl (smtpq3.home.nl [213.51.128.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F0C043D39 for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:55:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@offmyserver.com) Received: from [213.51.128.133] (port=40484 helo=smtp2.home.nl) by smtpq3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D5M5D-0004OE-SC for advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:55:31 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:33306 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp2.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D5M5B-0005DS-9D for advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:55:29 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Offmyserver, Inc. Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:55:28 +0100 Message-Id: <1109501728.3928.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Subject: Logo Submission: Train Themes 1 - 3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:55:33 -0000 Hey, I submitted the following logos for consideration in the logo contest. Since these are separate entries varying on the same theme, I'll condense them here. http://www.sitetronics.com/logo-contest/ Description: FreeBSD is a powerful, fast Operating System. Using a logo that is easily associated with power and speed is essential. The ``Train Logo Series'' attempts to portray FreeBSD in all its power and glory. Addendum: This is the full index of a 3 part series of logo ideas varying on the ``Train Logo'' theme. As you can see, I have attempted to place the logo as a letterhead. The logos can also be easily condensed to fit in a square area or smaller shape. These series of logos scale well, look decent in 1-bit color (fax quality) and can be easily modified to remove the gradient, which can cost more when printed on foil stickers, backlit plexiglass or other media. Full Name: Devon H. O'Dell Email address: dodell@offmyserver.com Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 28 03:02:04 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B7816A4CE for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:02:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from simmts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts5.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831DA43D4C for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:02:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jdalley@warp.nfld.net) Received: from [10.0.0.10] ([142.163.145.30]) by simmts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with ESMTP id <20050228030201.ERXK1614.simmts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@[10.0.0.10]> for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:02:01 -0500 From: Jason Dalley To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:31:43 -0330 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502272331.43726.jdalley@warp.nfld.net> Subject: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:02:04 -0000 I'm not a very good artist and even worse at programming, but FreeBSD works flawlessly for me. So I thought about sending in an entry for the logo contest to the list first to get a general public review before making the submission. You can see the logo and FreeBSD.com concept at: http://www.geocities.com/jddalley Feel free to make any "positive" suggestions and note that I have only tested the concept pages in Konqueror. Thanks, Jason From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 28 07:18:22 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF43616A4CE for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:18:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq2.home.nl (smtpq2.home.nl [213.51.128.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479C543D5F for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:18:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.135] (port=50479 helo=smtp4.home.nl) by smtpq2.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D5fAb-00023L-4k; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:18:21 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:33022 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp4.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D5fAW-0001ky-U3; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:18:16 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: Jason Dalley In-Reply-To: <200502272331.43726.jdalley@warp.nfld.net> References: <200502272331.43726.jdalley@warp.nfld.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: SiteTronics Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:18:16 +0100 Message-Id: <1109575096.3934.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:18:23 -0000 On Sun, 2005-02-27 at 23:31 -0330, Jason Dalley wrote: > I'm not a very good artist and even worse at programming, but FreeBSD works > flawlessly for me. So I thought about sending in an entry for the logo > contest to the list first to get a general public review before making the > submission. > > You can see the logo and FreeBSD.com concept at: > > http://www.geocities.com/jddalley > > Feel free to make any "positive" suggestions and note that I have only tested > the concept pages in Konqueror. > > Thanks, > Jason Hey Jason, I really like the design that you presented for FreeBSD.com. The first (tan) version is easiest on the eyes, although the blue version could be quite nice if it was less ``bright.'' I myself made a sample page at http://www.sitetronics.com/freebsd.com/ -- it could still use a good bit of work. Nice work! --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 28 07:19:30 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E6C216A4CE for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:19:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ew.co.za (mail.ew.co.za [209.203.4.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FBED43D3F for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:19:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fbsdlists@mnet-online.de) X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by EW virus scanning services (www.ew.co.za) Received: from [192.168.1.105] (unverified [62.154.197.171]) by ew.co.za (EW Mail Services) with ESMTP id 10974 for multiple; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:19:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200502272331.43726.jdalley@warp.nfld.net> References: <200502272331.43726.jdalley@warp.nfld.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Stephan Lichtenauer Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:18:56 +0100 To: Jason Dalley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com X-Authenticated-User: s01@lichtenauer.co.za cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:19:30 -0000 Hi, the sampleone.html is very nice IMHO and would make a very good freebsd.com. It has a clear, simple layout with unobtrusive colours. I am not so sure about the logo, I think the font is a little bit "bold", an impression that is repeated when looking at it on the sample page... Just my 2c of course... Stephan Am 28.02.2005 um 04:01 schrieb Jason Dalley: > I'm not a very good artist and even worse at programming, but FreeBSD > works > flawlessly for me. So I thought about sending in an entry for the logo > contest to the list first to get a general public review before making > the > submission. > > You can see the logo and FreeBSD.com concept at: > > http://www.geocities.com/jddalley > > Feel free to make any "positive" suggestions and note that I have only > tested > the concept pages in Konqueror. > > Thanks, > Jason > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 28 19:14:32 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE1316A4CF for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:14:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57CE43D31 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:14:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shaun.meyer@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so931745rnf for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:14:31 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=GOswpqh+TG7bMoxiXA4BS4uSDxaiVGQ+eoU5LEv86kSfNzYG74mygFbKNJ+GAdmHGb9z46nJG91DNwhye5X717VmLSxB5Jo1/c3yqQY5flAW6lM+5VQyZd51Ru2y/A2VXAG0nEntsFrf2QMxT8jDwU86ORGv+bXLL6aH6i4XAz8= Received: by 10.38.97.78 with SMTP id u78mr386061rnb; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.104.63 with HTTP; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:14:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:14:30 -0600 From: Shaun Meyer To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200502272331.43726.jdalley@warp.nfld.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200502272331.43726.jdalley@warp.nfld.net> Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Shaun Meyer List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:14:32 -0000 On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:31:43 -0330, Jason Dalley wrote: > I'm not a very good artist and even worse at programming, but FreeBSD works > flawlessly for me. So I thought about sending in an entry for the logo > contest to the list first to get a general public review before making the > submission. > > You can see the logo and FreeBSD.com concept at: > > http://www.geocities.com/jddalley > > Feel free to make any "positive" suggestions and note that I have only tested > the concept pages in Konqueror. > > Thanks, > Jason It looks very commercial (good? ;-). I agree with the previous statements about the "FreeBSD" being a bit large. The design does need something there that is that size, maybe fading the image a bit would help? Ps. Nice to see maybe a site will offer TCO's for those who want them. -- Shaun Meyer Composing, I think, is like trying to remember the word "Preoccupation". From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 28 23:31:25 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B58016A4CE for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:31:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A881B43D5A for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:31:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bsdnooby@optonline.net) Received: from [192.168.0.25] (ool-43532b7b.dyn.optonline.net [67.83.43.123]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0ICN00GU3AOBZR@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:31:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:31:39 -0500 From: bsdnooby In-reply-to: <421A72DD.7040001@cyberlifepictures.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: <4223A9DB.4080106@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050226) References: <421A3010.7090104@optonline.net> <421A72DD.7040001@cyberlifepictures.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Documentary Shorts X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:31:25 -0000 "That would be really great. I'm from Brazil and I am really interested in this idea. Let's get together and propose a world competition? I work for a BSD company that has came up with an unusual idea of making animated short films using our digital camera. You can count on us... Waiting for some answers, Luiz Gustavo" Sorry for the late response, I saw this response in Google, but for some reason - did not receive it from the list. I have some ideas about things I would like so see in videos (whether it be mine or someone elses). Things like the history of FreeBSD, spirit of the FreeBSD license, people who contribute to FreeBSD, people who use FreeBSD, companies that use FreeBSD, projects that use FreeBSD, places where FreeBSD is being used, and where FreeBSD is going. Also the strengths and weaknesses of FreeBSD, plus whatever else makes FreeBSD unique. Some examples.. The history of how FreeBSD is a direct descendant of UNIX, and it's legal troubles contributed to the creation of Linux (and perhaps the irony of that the defendants then are the plaintiffs now). Who the core team and other major contributors are. For example, I know who Greg Lehey and Dru Lavign are, and even what they look like - but I have no idea who makes up the core team, or anything about them. The personal users of FreeBSD might tend to be people who use it at work, and want to run it at home. While someone like me might be more interested in access to a completely legal library of 10,000 applications. A few years ago I was watching, of all things, The Jenny Jones TV show, where the show was on successful business women. One of the woman was a porn star (Mimi Miyagi) who said she ran her own website "on FreeBSD" and grossed over a million a year. Companies that use FreeBSD are the often mentioned Hotmail (originally), Yahoo, Cdrom.com, and I think Netcraft. I'm sure there are a lot more. I'm not sure which major OSS projects are developed mostly on FreeBSD. I think the guy who does SSH uses a BSD. A few years ago I read about a Japanese fellow who worked on the IPv6 stack, and I believe he was using a BSD. We could mention that Microsoft used FreeBSD's IP stack for Win2000, and that Apple used parts of FreeBSD for OSX. The places that use FreeBSD most likely is everywhere. I can imagine a video montage of the various countries where its used, from Tokyo to Times Square. Where FreeBSD is going would be important to cover, there never seems to be an end to the "FreeBSD is dying" trolling that goes on. My view of FreeBSD is that since it is essentially being developed by its users, it can never disappear unless it's users disappear - and so it doesn't really matter if it has .001% or 100% of the OS market share. The strengths and weaknesses could described as the typical ones for a *nix OS. Strengths might be free software, standards based, easy availability, low hardware requirements, efficient, internationalized, etc. Weaknesses might be higher learning curve, little commercial software, not so mainstream, etc. The unique traits would be where it really stands out. Incredible uptime for websites, as demonstrated on Netcraft. The huge number of ports available, more than any Linux distro I think. Very reliable, often it is chosen for science experiments. I read once how the USA put a bunch of earthquake measuring devices in caves throughout California, and they used the most reliable OS they could find - FreeBSD. Those machines were required to record data for years without needing service. Putting it all together... I personally envision a "longish short" video, which might be 30 minutes in length (rather than 10 mins for the typical "short") I would (personally) want to cram all of the above in to a slick video/documentary with a good soundtrack, soundbites, videos, and pictures. In order to encourage others to participate, we might need to standardize on perhaps a "short" and "long" length. The "short" might be 3 or 5 minutes, where someone could put something together quickly and easily. The "long" might be a real documentary of 30 or 120 minutes, something that would either go in to great depth on some topic or cover everything (like above notes do). If we had a library of these videos, they would make there way around the net acting as our FreeBSD emmisaries. I'm actually very new to FreeBSD, and my skills are still quite limited. I also do not know what the legal issues are in using songs, videos, pictures, and other media that is copyrighted by other parties. It would also be nice to do the video creation on FreeBSD, but I do not think that should be a requirement. As for rules, I don't think we would need any, except maybe to encourage people to aim for a certain length or filesize. That would be more for the producers benefit, so they didn't feel like they had to make a 120 documentary, or produce a 4GB video. We might want to agree on an easy to play codec beforehand. As people worked on the videos, they could share how they did it. That would enable more people to participate. The competitions would allow us to give greater recognition to the best videos. If we had a competition every 6 months, we could allow all the videos created since the last competition to be entered. If 6 months is too bold, we could do it annually. Personally, I have a lot to learn before I will be able to create a video - but I do not want that to hold back others. thx! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 1 19:13:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B7616A4CE for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:13:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from acheron.ne.client2.attbi.com (acheron.ne.client2.attbi.com [66.31.145.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3CDF43D2D for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:13:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mason@blisses.org) Received: from acheron.ne.client2.attbi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) j21JDQbm005244 for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mason@localhost)j21JDQYb025442 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:13:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:13:26 -0500 From: Mason Loring Bliss To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050301191326.GG29540@acheron.in.hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Pd0ReVV5GZGQvF3a" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.4 (acheron.ne.client2.attbi.com [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:13:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Information sought... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:13:27 -0000 --Pd0ReVV5GZGQvF3a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, all. I've got a new server that I'm currently bringing up with Debian GNU/Linux. Things are largely good, but I'm encountering some horrible problems with NFS, and at a friend's bidding I'm considering the prospect of using FreeBSD instead. My experience with FreeBSD is pretty minor, but I know it would do the trick for me. However, I have one question/concern that I'm hoping someone can answer. I've got a lot of experiencing having NetBSD pkgsrc fail for me in various ways, ranging from annoying to catastrophic. I love NetBSD otherwise, but it's unsuitable for my current need. Debian handles packages better than any system I've ever encountered. My questions are about FreeBSD binary packages. How quickly are they updated when security advisories come through? Is there documentation about any branching in place, and how that's handled? Are there any general caveats for using binary packages with FreeBSD? Is there any mechanism in place for safely doing in-place upgrades of dependencies? Say, for instance, I have an active Netatalk server that I really don't want disturbed. Say, further, that this theoretically depends on CUPS, and that CUPS lists a privilege escalation vulnerability or somesuch. Do FreeBSD's tools allow me to swap in a new CUPS when it becomes available without uprooting everything in its dependency tree? (Indeed, I had this happen recently with NetBSD, and the Netatalk configuration happened to change during the upgrade, resulting in a bunch of downtime and inconvenience as I tracked down why my users could no longer authenticate.) Debian goes to great lengths to make this sort of thing safe. How does FreeBSD compare? I'm quite open and willing to be swayed towards installing it. My only hesitation comes from seeing what issues I've had with NetBSD's package system and knowing that it arose from FreeBSD's ports. However, my issues with it are as much or moreso organizational (manpower and attention to detail) than technical. Thanks in advance for selling me on FreeBSD binary packages, or for telling me why I want to avoid them like the plague and find some other solution! --=20 Mason Loring Bliss mason@blisses.org I m m a n e n t i z e awake ? sleep : dream; http://blisses.org/ t h e E s c h a t o n --Pd0ReVV5GZGQvF3a Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (NetBSD) iD8DBQFCJL7WykMMY715wXIRAu0FAKCEVIgJgPJXSigM8lFOQVVKaBUqLgCbBhYe OT9wv3Y4KnKAI4k5naSCMEY= =0GKB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Pd0ReVV5GZGQvF3a-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 2 01:04:37 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C5316A4CE for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 01:04:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq2.home.nl (smtpq2.home.nl [213.51.128.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C7543D49 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 01:04:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from luyt@ovosoft.nl) Received: from [213.51.128.132] (port=55509 helo=smtp1.home.nl) by smtpq2.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D6IHz-000587-Qt for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 02 Mar 2005 02:04:35 +0100 Received: from cc351901-a.groni1.gr.home.nl ([82.73.114.87]:33404 helo=localhost.invalid) by smtp1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D6IHy-0007Au-OJ for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 02 Mar 2005 02:04:34 +0100 From: Luyt To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 02:07:30 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <200502272331.43726.jdalley@warp.nfld.net> <1109575096.3934.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1109575096.3934.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200503020207.30209.luyt@ovosoft.nl> X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Neem contact op met support@home.nl voor meer informatie X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 01:04:37 -0000 On Monday 28 February 2005 08:18, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > it could still use a good bit of work. Indeed. For starters, the page doesn't adjust itself to the size of the browser window. -- "The ability of the OSS process to collect and harness the collective IQ of thousands of individuals across the Internet is simply amazing." - Vinod Vallopillil http://www.opensource.org/halloween/halloween4.php From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 2 01:55:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 583AE16A4CE for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 01:55:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00EF543D41 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 01:55:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joseph.koshy@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so32692rnf for ; Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:55:05 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=UxFO6saArqg/pqrtBeC17FfNs0QqYTxkxFEQ9R6H6bVPWuzXcq7a1p6lCpr889XHiCsq+1mU8sCYJN/aeFE1wkKphtGzC6N7Ktwl7ov+XT2DPPXXTR4hPVNZiSZXzGpR7cYvNl6Y/9b5XqDrTje3sMyuxnE1Ti0LC26Fj5XAkJU= Received: by 10.38.164.47 with SMTP id m47mr15390rne; Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:55:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.209.22 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:55:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <84dead7205030117557efe3e6c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 01:55:05 +0000 From: Joseph Koshy To: Mason Loring Bliss In-Reply-To: <20050301191326.GG29540@acheron.in.hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20050301191326.GG29540@acheron.in.hades> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Information sought... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Joseph Koshy List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 01:55:06 -0000 > Do FreeBSD's tools allow me to swap in a new CUPS when it > becomes available without uprooting everything in its > dependency tree? Yes, this is portupgrade's default behaviour when building from source. I haven't used binary packages much. You may also want to look at the binary updater too: http://www.daemonology.net/freebsd-update/ -- FreeBSD Volunteer, http://people.freebsd.org/~jkoshy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 2 08:16:31 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7AE16A4CF for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:16:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq3.home.nl (smtpq3.home.nl [213.51.128.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34DF543D5F for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:16:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@offmyserver.com) Received: from [213.51.128.134] (port=43365 helo=smtp3.home.nl) by smtpq3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D6P1x-0001Fy-Ui; Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:16:29 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:32895 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D6P1w-0003Vg-W3; Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:16:29 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: Luyt In-Reply-To: <200503020207.30209.luyt@ovosoft.nl> References: <200502272331.43726.jdalley@warp.nfld.net> <1109575096.3934.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200503020207.30209.luyt@ovosoft.nl> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Offmyserver, Inc. Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:16:28 +0100 Message-Id: <1109751388.3933.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Neem contact op met support@home.nl voor meer informatie X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 08:16:31 -0000 On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 02:07 +0100, Luyt wrote: > On Monday 28 February 2005 08:18, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > > > it could still use a good bit of work. > > Indeed. For starters, the page doesn't adjust itself to the size of the > browser window. > That is done for a reason, at least on my mockup. If you take a look at websites of companies that are in the same market (Sun and IBM, for instance), their pages do not do this either. I suspect the reason for this is the logical one: there are still a surprisingly large number of people browsing at 800x600. Both their sites look just fine at 1600x1200 as well. I'm more inclined to follow their model than other ``popular design'' models since these are companies who are known to spend more money than either of us will ever see in our lifetimes purely for research of their website interface. Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 2 16:56:16 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED78716A4CF for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:56:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from usw2.natel.net (2b.bz [209.152.117.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EF25D43D39 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:56:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from WD@US-Webmasters.com) Received: (qmail 13968 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2005 16:56:10 -0000 Received: from batv-01-001.dialup.netins.net (HELO Htebazile.US-Webmasters.com) (216.248.109.2) by us-webmasters.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2005 16:56:10 -0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302104537.0cd9e020@209.152.117.178> X-Sender: wd@209.152.117.178 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:54:49 -0600 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: "W. D." In-Reply-To: <1109751388.3933.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200503020207.30209.luyt@ovosoft.nl> <200502272331.43726.jdalley@warp.nfld.net> <1109575096.3934.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200503020207.30209.luyt@ovosoft.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:56:17 -0000 At 02:16 3/2/2005, Devon H. O'Dell, wrote: >On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 02:07 +0100, Luyt wrote: >> On Monday 28 February 2005 08:18, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: >>=20 >> > it could still use a good bit of work. >>=20 >> Indeed. For starters, the page doesn't adjust itself to the size of the= =20 >> browser window. >>=20 > >That is done for a reason, at least on my mockup. If you take a look at >websites of companies that are in the same market (Sun and IBM, for >instance), their pages do not do this either. I suspect the reason for >this is the logical one: there are still a surprisingly large number of >people browsing at 800x600. Both their sites look just fine at 1600x1200 >as well. I'm more inclined to follow their model than other ``popular >design'' models since these are companies who are known to spend more >money than either of us will ever see in our lifetimes purely for >research of their website interface. This is just silly. They make sites with a static width because they just don't care. =20 Any respectable Web site design authority will strongly recommend page width that adjusts to the browser window. Think about it: what is more accomodating to your visitors who have different browser configurations--static or variable? Human factors (user friendly interfaces), are mostly ignored on the vast majority of Web sites. Show me any evidence=20 whatsoever that these companies mentioned above have spent a=20 penny on the human factors of their website interfaces! > >Kind regards, > >Devon H. O'Dell > >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Start Here to Find It Fast!=99 ->= http://www.US-Webmasters.com/best-start-page/ $8.77 Domain Names -> http://domains.us-webmasters.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 2 18:23:28 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D8816A4CE for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:23:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C57743D53 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:23:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2696) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D6YVG-0004Kw-6K; Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:23:22 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:22:55 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B5B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'Devon H. O'Dell'" Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:22:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:23:28 -0000 From: Devon H. O'Dell [mailto:dodell@offmyserver.com] > That is done for a reason, at least on my mockup. If you take a look at > websites of companies that are in the same market (Sun and IBM, for > instance), their pages do not do this either. There is a myth among corporations that webpages are supposed to look absolutely identical on every viewing. It's about their corporate image. If they thought they could prevent user-side stylesheets, they would. If they thought they could put up an image of the page and call it "html", they would. If they could forcibly resize the viewer's screen resolution, they would. If you do a complete survey of corporations, though, you will find that not all follow the above philosophies. But even if they all did, it would not matter, because we are not a commercial corporation. It doesn't matter to us if the user is using an unapproved temperature on their monitor, shifting the colors out of their carefully chosen trademark specifications. We're not that anal. Or at least we shouldn't be. > Both their sites look just fine at 1600x1200 > as well. Irrelevant. The size of the monitor only determines the maximum size of the windows within it. I don't know anyone who browses in a maximized window on a 1600x1200 monitor. I'm sure people do, but they would be very rare individuals. The days of telling the user what size monitor they must have are long past. I have a 1600x1200 monitor but my browser windows are 800x1200 so I can put two of them up on the screen side by side. I can always tell when I get to a "made for 800x600" page, because suddenly it won't fit and I have horizontal scrollbars! That's because the few pixels for the window border makes my view slightly less than 800. So for me with my very large 21" monitor, I want a page that fits into a 788 width. But that's just me. I'm sure there are tons of folks who prefer even smaller sizes. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 2 18:30:41 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C18016A4CE for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:30:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CFEE43D49 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:30:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from volcimaster@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so215606rns for ; Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:30:40 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=tdFeJbjqKtl/dVCGXCjcI7gHYLFGKjexX61Wq8j5GHTdxuqZObsM/2ClgVaGPQSvXmr9mzddF9SuC1U9t6jNC2Qu7bQYJTIL2x9e6GSCJodohRukXg25lPLQQUZiNaVviyjSI7m1SL2JeFLKyJPHOyGKFY5xPCw2yGLXEZxPdTk= Received: by 10.38.8.35 with SMTP id 35mr272425rnh; Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.8.29 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:30:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:30:39 -0500 From: Warren Myers To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B5B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B5B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Warren Myers List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:30:41 -0000 I always trim my pages to 750 pixels. It gives a small border on each side (except in the retardedly stupid css rendering in IE), and makes it very readable. I run high res at home (1280x1024, because I only have a 17"), and like to have multiple windows open simultaneously, and if I could run 1600 or higher, I most certainly would. Having multiple windows open is nearly a necessity anymore, and sizing the site to fit in a common size of 750 wide (to allow for the window borders and such) is a reasonable thing to do, in my opinion.. WMM On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:22:49 -0800, Johnson David wrote: > From: Devon H. O'Dell [mailto:dodell@offmyserver.com] > > > That is done for a reason, at least on my mockup. If you take a look at > > websites of companies that are in the same market (Sun and IBM, for > > instance), their pages do not do this either. > > There is a myth among corporations that webpages are supposed to look > absolutely identical on every viewing. It's about their corporate image. If > they thought they could prevent user-side stylesheets, they would. If they > thought they could put up an image of the page and call it "html", they > would. If they could forcibly resize the viewer's screen resolution, they > would. > > If you do a complete survey of corporations, though, you will find that not > all follow the above philosophies. But even if they all did, it would not > matter, because we are not a commercial corporation. It doesn't matter to us > if the user is using an unapproved temperature on their monitor, shifting > the colors out of their carefully chosen trademark specifications. We're not > that anal. Or at least we shouldn't be. > > > Both their sites look just fine at 1600x1200 > > as well. > > Irrelevant. The size of the monitor only determines the maximum size of the > windows within it. I don't know anyone who browses in a maximized window on > a 1600x1200 monitor. I'm sure people do, but they would be very rare > individuals. The days of telling the user what size monitor they must have > are long past. > > I have a 1600x1200 monitor but my browser windows are 800x1200 so I can put > two of them up on the screen side by side. I can always tell when I get to a > "made for 800x600" page, because suddenly it won't fit and I have horizontal > scrollbars! That's because the few pixels for the window border makes my > view slightly less than 800. > > So for me with my very large 21" monitor, I want a page that fits into a 788 > width. But that's just me. I'm sure there are tons of folks who prefer even > smaller sizes. > > David > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- http://warrenmyers.com "Don't let the elephants see what the rabbits are doing." --Ben R Rich "He looks like a contented Christian with four aces." --Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 2 18:51:03 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1815116A4CE for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:51:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from usw2.natel.net (2b.bz [209.152.117.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 49FA743D3F for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:51:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from WD@US-Webmasters.com) Received: (qmail 31009 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2005 18:51:00 -0000 Received: from batv-01-001.dialup.netins.net (HELO Htebazile.US-Webmasters.com) (216.248.109.2) by us-webmasters.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2005 18:51:00 -0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302124137.0f2ad860@209.152.117.178> X-Sender: wd@209.152.117.178 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 12:50:26 -0600 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: "W. D." In-Reply-To: References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B5B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B5B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:51:03 -0000 At 12:30 3/2/2005, Warren Myers, wrote: >I always trim my pages to 750 pixels. It gives a small border on each >side (except in the retardedly stupid css rendering in IE), and makes >it very readable. I run high res at home (1280x1024, because I only >have a 17"), and like to have multiple windows open simultaneously, >and if I could run 1600 or higher, I most certainly would. Having >multiple windows open is nearly a necessity anymore, and sizing the >site to fit in a common size of 750 wide (to allow for the window >borders and such) is a reasonable thing to do, in my opinion.. It's reasonable if you are lazy. Go over your HTML code and replace=20 WIDTH=3D"750"=20 with WIDTH=3D"100%" You will have a page that looks the same in your browser, but will auto-size for other configurations. If you have nested tables, those will also need to be converted from fixed pixels to percentages as well. Most HTML on the Web is just plain sloppy. This is one of the reasons browsers have to be bulky--they need to=20 make allowances for crappy HTML. Are you valid? http://www.HTMLvalidator.com/ http://www.HTMLhelp.com/tools/validator/ http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator-uri.html Start Here to Find It Fast!=99 ->= http://www.US-Webmasters.com/best-start-page/ $8.77 Domain Names -> http://domains.us-webmasters.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 2 19:15:32 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E926716A4D4 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:15:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from usw2.natel.net (2b.bz [209.152.117.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 23DD143D41 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:15:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from WD@US-Webmasters.com) Received: (qmail 34079 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2005 19:15:29 -0000 Received: from batv-01-001.dialup.netins.net (HELO Htebazile.US-Webmasters.com) (216.248.109.2) by us-webmasters.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2005 19:15:29 -0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302130022.0f048070@209.152.117.178> X-Sender: wd@209.152.117.178 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:14:18 -0600 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: "W. D." In-Reply-To: <20050302084511.C52286@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302104537.0cd9e020@209.152.117.178> <200503020207.30209.luyt@ovosoft.nl> <200502272331.43726.jdalley@warp.nfld.net> <1109575096.3934.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200503020207.30209.luyt@ovosoft.nl> <1109751388.3933.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <5.1.0.14.2.20050302104537.0cd9e020@209.152.117.178> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 19:15:32 -0000 At 10:45 3/2/2005, Matt Olander wrote: >On Wed, Mar 02, 2005 at 10:54:49AM -0600, W. D. wrote: >> >research of their website interface. >>=20 >> This is just silly. They make sites with a static width because >> they just don't care. =20 >>=20 >> Any respectable Web site design authority will strongly >> recommend page width that adjusts to the browser window. > >actually, I can find professionals that recommend it both ways. Yes, but I said 'respectable'. ;^) > >> Think about it: what is more accommodating to your visitors who >> have different browser configurations--static or variable? > >it depends I think. I mean, why is the page resizing? What was wrong >with it's original size that it needs to resize? Well, one of the basic principles of HTML is universality. If a page is designed for a fixed width, then one must use scroll bars to navigate horizontally. The argument that most browsers are 800 pixel wide is ridiculous. More and more devices are becoming Internet capable (like those running embedded BSD)--and their width can easily be 400 pixels or=20 smaller. Proper HTML design takes this into consideration. >> Human factors (user friendly interfaces), are mostly ignored >> on the vast majority of Web sites. Show me any evidence=20 >> whatsoever that these companies mentioned above have spent a=20 >> penny on the human factors of their website interfaces! > >I'm sure if you do your own digging, you'll find that major corporations >spend quite a bit on their websites. Spending money is not the same as being effective. Just look at the government. >http://www.sun.com/980113/sunonnet/ Looks good. They are one of the few who have actually put some effort into human factors. I think if you checked out the websites of the S&P 500, you would find that less than 5% of those have similarly taken a serious interest in user friendliness. Start Here to Find It Fast!=99 ->= http://www.US-Webmasters.com/best-start-page/ $8.77 Domain Names -> http://domains.us-webmasters.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 2 19:31:30 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04CCB16A4CE for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:31:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.129]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6371843D48 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:31:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from warren@wandrsmith.net) Received: from CPE-65-28-44-243.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-28-44-243.kc.rr.com [65.28.44.243])j22JVQiq025703 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:31:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from www.wandrsmith.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by CPE-65-28-44-243.kc.rr.com (Postfix) with SMTP id ECD1D5DDD for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:31:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from 204.167.177.68 (SquirrelMail authenticated user warren) by www.wandrsmith.net with HTTP; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:31:25 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <32816.204.167.177.68.1109791885.squirrel@www.wandrsmith.net> Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:31:25 -0600 (CST) From: "Warren Smith" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Subject: RE: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: warren@wandrsmith.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 19:31:30 -0000 Johnson David said: > From: Devon H. O'Dell [mailto:dodell@offmyserver.com] > >> That is done for a reason, at least on my mockup. If you take a look at >> websites of companies that are in the same market (Sun and IBM, for >> instance), their pages do not do this either. > > There is a myth among corporations that webpages are supposed to look > absolutely identical on every viewing. It's about their corporate image. > If > they thought they could prevent user-side stylesheets, they would. If they > thought they could put up an image of the page and call it "html", they > would. If they could forcibly resize the viewer's screen resolution, they > would. > I have to agree with David here. My development group supports a web application that allows registered shareholders of thousands of public companies to cast their proxy vote via the Internet. We have been asked several times by clients to do some of these very things to enforce consistency of viewing. I suppose they are used to dealing with a more controlled environment like their corporate intranet. It is madness for them to expect to exercise that level of control over even the subset of Internet users represented by their registered shareholders. > If you do a complete survey of corporations, though, you will find that > not > all follow the above philosophies. But even if they all did, it would not > matter, because we are not a commercial corporation. It doesn't matter to > us > if the user is using an unapproved temperature on their monitor, shifting > the colors out of their carefully chosen trademark specifications. We're > not > that anal. Or at least we shouldn't be. > I totally agree. >> Both their sites look just fine at 1600x1200 >> as well. > > Irrelevant. The size of the monitor only determines the maximum size of > the > windows within it. I don't know anyone who browses in a maximized window > on > a 1600x1200 monitor. I'm sure people do, but they would be very rare > individuals. The days of telling the user what size monitor they must have > are long past. > I don't browse at 1600x1200, but I do browse at 1280x1024 and I appreciate those sites that have taken the time to use my browser real-estate effectively instead of just choosing to support 800x600 as the "lowest common denominator". Granted, however, that making a page look good at 800x600 and 1600x1200 and everything in between requires more work/time/money than just designing to 800x600. I suspect that part of the reason for this is the WYSIWYG mindset of some of the web site authoring tools that get used to generate and maintain these sites. Given that the page in question is just a proof of concept, the lack of effective use of my browser real-estate doesn't bother me, so long as the reason for it is lack of time to do it "right". I have to agree with W.D. when he said that it is silly to say that designing only to 800x600 is the "right" thing to do solely because big corporations do it. It may be the right thing to do for a given site, given the time, budget, or knowledge constraints of its authors, but it is definitely not the "right" thing to do in general. -- Warren Smith warren@wandrsmith.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 2 20:02:05 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B719B16A4CE for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:02:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009A443D2F for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:02:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from volcimaster@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so226019rns for ; Wed, 02 Mar 2005 12:02:04 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=jf7rJVCsOoPY+AHZilkENiZq+KcmTHtfzgKK0jkHn8gLopR8mAFDRd60r1KPg5R4DP65NbuQZptivRvpmc5imuOvI8wV9G/4VVT1NoTmJRD+LEKq+ZHYxw7rWJ34NImh5ADiPbDmrWyiYYIgZVMJhmrWPrYnaB+tQDR3eJVTyWE= Received: by 10.38.8.39 with SMTP id 39mr78789rnh; Wed, 02 Mar 2005 12:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.8.29 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:02:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 15:02:04 -0500 From: Warren Myers To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302124137.0f2ad860@209.152.117.178> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B5B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050302124137.0f2ad860@209.152.117.178> Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Warren Myers List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:02:05 -0000 It's not an aspect of laziness. It's in deference to other users of my site. If you have the width uncontrolled, long streams of text become very hard to read on high resolutions. I understand that not many people will view pages maximized at 1600x1200, but I do for basic design principles taught in every web design class I've ever been in or heard of. The width is directly tied to readability. If someone needs to resize the window down just to read what you have to say, they will most likely move on. There's a reason why newspapers and magazines use the column approach: it's not because it's "what we do" it's because the human eye has trouble reading wide streams of text easily. It can be done, but most people tend to start dropping their eye by the end of the line. You see this tendency when someone writes on a chalk or whiteboard. As the line continues across the board, it gradually gets lower and lower, because they do not force their hand up, and as you get further away from the center of your viewing, your eye wants to relax downwards. All good professional web designers know that they need to keep there site a decent width. Sometimes scaling works decently, but not often. Slashdot is a good example of a site that chooses not to set the width of their pages. They fix the size of the menus and ad space, but let the text flow inside whatever space is left over. This means that their pages are not very readable in high resolution windows. For example, at work I run 1024x768 and keep all of my window maximized when browsing. At that resolution, the article space doesn't look too bad. However, when I'm at home or school and running 1280x1024, the articles are more difficult to read, and at 1600x1200, they become nearly impossible to follow. And I have good eyesight. The positioning chosen by most good designers from large companies like Apple, IBM, CNN, on down to personal sites like my own (http://warrenmyers.com) all follow the simple readability rules mentioned above. They also make sure that the most important information is in the first screen of what you see since a large percentage of visitors will not scroll the window if they don't see what they need immediately. Changing the width setting will not make the page look the same in my browser, either. If I let the width float, I would lose the clear borders and margins around the edge of my page. As a general rule, I also don't do all of my layout and formatting with tables. Only one site I maintain uses tables for its layout, and I just haven't had the time to switch over to pure HTML and CSS. CSS was designed from the ground up to provide all of the layout and style handling anyone needs. Look at http://csszengarden.com for examples of identical HTML but different style sheets, and see the drastic differences realized through the judicious use of CSS. As to your question of validity, yes my sites are all valid, to the best of my knowledge. There may be some minor inconsistencies, but they are just that, minor. WMM On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 12:50:26 -0600, W. D. wrote: > At 12:30 3/2/2005, Warren Myers, wrote: > >I always trim my pages to 750 pixels. It gives a small border on each > >side (except in the retardedly stupid css rendering in IE), and makes > >it very readable. I run high res at home (1280x1024, because I only > >have a 17"), and like to have multiple windows open simultaneously, > >and if I could run 1600 or higher, I most certainly would. Having > >multiple windows open is nearly a necessity anymore, and sizing the > >site to fit in a common size of 750 wide (to allow for the window > >borders and such) is a reasonable thing to do, in my opinion.. >=20 > It's reasonable if you are lazy. Go over your HTML code and > replace >=20 > WIDTH=3D"750" >=20 > with >=20 > WIDTH=3D"100%" >=20 > You will have a page that looks the same in your browser, but > will auto-size for other configurations. If you have nested > tables, those will also need to be converted from fixed pixels > to percentages as well. >=20 > Most HTML on the Web is just plain sloppy. This is one > of the reasons browsers have to be bulky--they need to > make allowances for crappy HTML. Are you valid? >=20 > http://www.HTMLvalidator.com/ > http://www.HTMLhelp.com/tools/validator/ > http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator-uri.html >=20 > Start Here to Find It Fast!=E2=84=A2 -> http://www.US-Webmasters.com/best= -start-page/ > $8.77 Domain Names -> http://domains.us-webmasters.com/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.or= g" >=20 --=20 http://warrenmyers.com "Don't let the elephants see what the rabbits are doing." --Ben R Rich "He looks like a contented Christian with four aces." --Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 2 22:48:19 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F9416A4D4 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:48:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from usw2.natel.net (2b.bz [209.152.117.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5C1FB43D2F for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:48:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from WD@US-Webmasters.com) Received: (qmail 62660 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2005 22:48:15 -0000 Received: from batv-01-000.dialup.netins.net (HELO Htebazile.US-Webmasters.com) (216.248.109.1) by us-webmasters.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2005 22:48:15 -0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302155717.1fa0bb80@209.152.117.178> X-Sender: wd@209.152.117.178 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:47:37 -0600 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: "W. D." In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302124137.0f2ad860@209.152.117.178> <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B5B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050302124137.0f2ad860@209.152.117.178> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 22:48:19 -0000 At 14:02 3/2/2005, Warren Myers, wrote: >It's not an aspect of laziness.=20 Well, I guess we differ on the definition of the term. I would define it as an unwillingness to exert=20 necessary effort to implement a desired result or=20 something like that. >It's in deference to other users of my >site.=20 I am all in favor of 'deference' to users of websites. >If you have the width uncontrolled, long streams of text become >very hard to read on high resolutions.=20 Huh? Not if the page is designed properly. You don't need to have 'absolute' size fonts. You can program the page to display 'relative' fonts that work well no matter what resolution the monitor is displaying: FONT-SIZE:X-SMALL FONT-SIZE:XX-LARGE http://www.webreference.com/html/tutorial7/2.html >I understand that not many >people will view pages maximized at 1600x1200, but I do for basic >design principles taught in every web design class I've ever been in >or heard of. Well, I guess that's why there are so many poorly designed sites out there--the instructors of these classes aren't=20 skilled themselves. >The width is directly tied to readability.=20 I would say the relationship is indirect. If the site is improperly designed, it might be a direct correspondence. >If someone needs to resize >the window down just to read what you have to say, they will most >likely move on.=20 Nah. If they really want to read what's on the page they will make the effort. This is not to say that a hard to read page won't repel users in marginal cases. >There's a reason why newspapers and magazines use the >column approach: it's not because it's "what we do" it's because the >human eye has trouble reading wide streams of text easily.=20 Excellent point! Print media--after hundreds of years-- finally got on the usability bandwagon. Thin columns are easier to speed read. Perhaps it won't take hundreds of years for this same lesson to sink into the brains of 'Professional Web Designers'. Google is leaning in the right direction: http://news.Google.com/ >It can be >done, but most people tend to start dropping their eye by the end of >the line. 'Dropping their eye'? My understanding of how most people read=20 quickly is that they take in groups of words all at once. =20 >You see this tendency when someone writes on a chalk or whiteboard. As >the line continues across the board, it gradually gets lower and >lower, because they do not force their hand up, and as you get further >away from the center of your viewing, your eye wants to relax >downwards. Whatever. >All good professional web designers know that they need to keep there >site a decent width.=20 That's your opinion. (Don't you mean 'their'?) >Sometimes scaling works decently, but not often. >Slashdot is a good example of a site that chooses not to set the width >of their pages. They fix the size of the menus and ad space, but let >the text flow inside whatever space is left over.=20 Well then, kudos to them! >This means that >their pages are not very readable in high resolution windows. For >example, at work I run 1024x768 and keep all of my window maximized >when browsing. At that resolution, the article space doesn't look too >bad. However, when I'm at home or school and running 1280x1024, the >articles are more difficult to read, and at 1600x1200, they become >nearly impossible to follow. And I have good eyesight. Please refer to above 'relative' fonts comment. If you are having problems reading the font at ANY resolution, then the person designing the page hasn't expended the necessary effort to design the page properly. >The positioning chosen by most good designers from large companies >like Apple, IBM, CNN, on down to personal sites like my own >(http://warrenmyers.com) all follow the simple readability rules >mentioned above.=20 I am all for readability! However, that's only one consideration of 'good' Web design. >They also make sure that the most important >information is in the first screen of what you see since a large >percentage of visitors will not scroll the window if they don't see >what they need immediately. Good point! This is one of the most important principles of proper design. >Changing the width setting will not make the page look the same in my >browser, either.=20 Yep. How does one define 'same'? Since browsers vary, and=20 resolutions vary, it's impossible to get a Web page to look exactly the same in all browsers and monitors. The important principle is 'universal' ease of use and=20 readability for the vast majority of cases. >If I let the width float, I would lose the clear >borders and margins around the edge of my page.=20 Then you don't know about all the methods available in HTML. >As a general rule, I >also don't do all of my layout and formatting with tables.=20 Perhaps this is the main problem. In HTML, tables are a primary, if not THE primary technique for controlling the format of a page. >Only one >site I maintain uses tables for its layout, and I just haven't had the >time to switch over to pure HTML and CSS.=20 See definition of 'lazy' above. ;^) >CSS was designed from the >ground up to provide all of the layout and style handling anyone >needs.=20 Not 'all', but quite a bit. It sure would be nice if people used it properly. >Look at http://csszengarden.com for examples of identical HTML >but different style sheets, and see the drastic differences realized >through the judicious use of CSS. Oh, I believe in CSS, Mojumbo. >As to your question of validity, yes my sites are all valid, to the >best of my knowledge. There may be some minor inconsistencies, but >they are just that, minor. Did you run them through any kind of validation tool? If not, please again refer to definition of 'lazy' above. ;^) Start Here to Find It Fast!=99 ->= http://www.US-Webmasters.com/best-start-page/ $8.77 Domain Names -> http://domains.us-webmasters.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 03:39:23 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E003716A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 03:39:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-222-87-197.jan.bellsouth.net [68.222.87.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05AF443D55 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 03:39:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id B3AF520FF4; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:39:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:39:21 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Warren Myers Message-ID: <20050303033920.GB1280@over-yonder.net> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B5B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050302124137.0f2ad860@209.152.117.178> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i-fullermd.2 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 03:39:24 -0000 On Wed, Mar 02, 2005 at 03:02:04PM -0500 I heard the voice of Warren Myers, and lo! it spake thus: > > The width is directly tied to readability. If someone needs to > resize the window down just to read what you have to say, they will > most likely move on. If someone needs to resize the window down, that's a sign that their window is too wide in the first place. *I* will tell my web browser what size I want it to be, thanks. YOU just give me the content that goes into it. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 06:53:01 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5969616A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 06:53:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq3.home.nl (smtpq3.home.nl [213.51.128.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC8D543D54 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 06:53:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@offmyserver.com) Received: from [213.51.128.136] (port=34715 helo=smtp5.home.nl) by smtpq3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D6kCf-0002Lo-Cp; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:52:57 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:33166 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp5.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D6kCc-0001f4-2K; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:52:54 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: "Matthew D. Fuller" In-Reply-To: <20050303033920.GB1280@over-yonder.net> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B5B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050302124137.0f2ad860@209.152.117.178> <20050303033920.GB1280@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Offmyserver, Inc. Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:52:52 +0100 Message-Id: <1109832772.3932.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 06:53:01 -0000 On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 21:39 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Wed, Mar 02, 2005 at 03:02:04PM -0500 I heard the voice of > Warren Myers, and lo! it spake thus: > > > > The width is directly tied to readability. If someone needs to > > resize the window down just to read what you have to say, they will > > most likely move on. > > If someone needs to resize the window down, that's a sign that their > window is too wide in the first place. > > *I* will tell my web browser what size I want it to be, thanks. YOU > just give me the content that goes into it. This topic has certainly sparked conversation between the designers among us. I'd like to point out that I wasn't talking about the content of the entire page; so perhaps IBM was a bad example since their page content _never_ scales. On that note, one person pointed out to me privately that Sun's webpage does scale. I'm aware of this: it's simply the front page that is statically sized. The front page should have a static size, in my opinion, for a variety of reasons. For such a site, your front page is more a portal to the rest of your pages. You want to give a clear, understandable and easily navigable layout. A static layout allows you to position the elements of the page in a large, quickly identifiable format and to give ``front- page style'' to your biggest news topics. There are good arguments on each side for static versus variable widths. My intent with the site was to create a statically-sized front page and have real-content pages take advantage of the screen size if they can. Sorry for the miscommunication. --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 08:51:32 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74AC616A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:51:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 777C043D2F for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:51:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:49:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: <1109832772.3932.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B5B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050302124137.0f2ad860@209.152.117.178> <20050303033920.GB1280@over-yonder.net> <1109832772.3932.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <697c1c6dd69c56a4f68e3829f57509e0@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:51:26 +0100 To: "Devon H. O'Dell" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "Matthew D.Fuller" Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:51:32 -0000 On Mar 3, 2005, at 7:52 AM, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > There are good arguments on each side for static versus variable > widths. > My intent with the site was to create a statically-sized front page and > have real-content pages take advantage of the screen size if they can. I agree with earlier comments that designing a web page not to scale is the lazy solution. It can be challenging to implement an optimal design that scales well. From the "marketing" point of view, I'd say a well designed page that doesn't scale is better than a badly designed page that does scale. But best is a well designed page that does also scale well. Now, freebsd.org currently does scale (with the changes in my recommended patch it scales slightly better). I don't think that it should be our priority to make freebsd.org not scale. Instead we should improve its design. After that, and with a shift towards better use of CSS, we can further improve the scaling as well - and add some good marketing content, white papers, solution guides, success stories! We have a huge white space in the smak middle of the front page reserved for pretty marketing content - which just needs to be produced. In my opinion, this is where the design ideas presented in this thread should be implemented. chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 13:17:00 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D77216A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:17:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778AB43D3F for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:16:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A5B1F.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.91.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j23AMLYS052849 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:22:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j23ANfZK007449 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:23:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j23ANfwd037863 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:23:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200503031023.j23ANfwd037863@fire.jhs.private> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message from "Devon H. O'Dell" <1109832772.3932.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:23:41 +0100 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 13:17:00 -0000 Personal (& list/ group) preferences for http://FreeBSD.com to be fixed or variable width, are Irrelevant & a waste of our reading time. http://freebsd.com points at freebsd.org but could switch. Owner has not given or sold domain to us. whois freebsd.com Registrant: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (DKWSKOEOWD) Hardstrasse 235 Zurich, ZH 8005 Please be more realistic on issues. There's too much hot air on this list. - Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 13:19:55 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A263B16A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:19:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq1.home.nl (smtpq1.home.nl [213.51.128.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D11443D1D for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:19:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.136] (port=45480 helo=smtp5.home.nl) by smtpq1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D6qF8-0006m2-Aa; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:19:54 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:34254 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp5.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D6qF6-00009M-To; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:19:52 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: "Julian H. Stacey" In-Reply-To: <200503031023.j23ANfwd037863@fire.jhs.private> References: <200503031023.j23ANfwd037863@fire.jhs.private> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: SiteTronics Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:19:52 +0100 Message-Id: <1109855992.3932.129.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 13:19:55 -0000 On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 11:23 +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Personal (& list/ group) preferences for http://FreeBSD.com > to be fixed or variable width, are Irrelevant & a waste of our > reading time. http://freebsd.com points at freebsd.org but could > switch. Owner has not given or sold domain to us. > whois freebsd.com > Registrant: > Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (DKWSKOEOWD) > Hardstrasse 235 > Zurich, ZH 8005 > Please be more realistic on issues. There's too much hot air on this list. As I have stated before, the idea is to have a site readily available and endorsed by the project as a PR site for businesses and corporations. Whether or not the site is accessible via FreeBSD.com is irrelevant. --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 15:18:41 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B645D16A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:18:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B2F43D41 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:18:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A6502.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.101.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j23FIcYS053592 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:18:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j23FJoGC008210 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:19:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j23FJoIY042729 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:19:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200503031519.j23FJoIY042729@fire.jhs.private> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message from "Devon H. O'Dell" <1109855992.3932.129.camel@localhost.localdomain> Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:19:50 +0100 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:18:41 -0000 "Devon H. O'Dell" wrote: > On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 11:23 +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > Personal (& list/ group) preferences for http://FreeBSD.com > > to be fixed or variable width, are Irrelevant & a waste of our > > reading time. http://freebsd.com points at freebsd.org but could > > switch. Owner has not given or sold domain to us. > > whois freebsd.com > > Registrant: > > Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (DKWSKOEOWD) > > Hardstrasse 235 > > Zurich, ZH 8005 > > Please be more realistic on issues. There's too much hot air on this list. > > As I have stated before, the idea is to have a site readily available > and endorsed by the project as a PR site for businesses and > corporations. Whether or not the site is accessible via FreeBSD.com is > irrelevant. I don't mean personal criticism of any one person. But ... There's Far too much idle chat on advocacy@. Some should subscribe chat@, & some of us should direct windy threads & people to chat@ http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat Noise to signal ratio on advocacy@ remains so high I'm considering unsubscribing again, unfortunate as I'm interested in Practical BSD advocacy ( Created a BSD-UG, initiated BSD leaflet for exhibitions, organised BSD stands etc http://berklix.org/bim/leaflet/ ). Advocacy@ should contain only what Helps BSD Advocacy, eg: "Who will help man a BSD stand in _Your_City_ in 2 weeks ?" "Who will help man a BSD install event in _Your_City_ in 2 weeks ?" "Who will co-author a BSD book ?" "Here's a _maintained_ URL, to print/forward to acquaintances who ask the eternal question: "Why use BSD rather than Linux ?"" No defocused chat on advocacy@ please. _Please_ chat on chat@ !! - Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 15:22:48 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B44916A4CF for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:22:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq2.home.nl (smtpq2.home.nl [213.51.128.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1B443D5A for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:22:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.136] (port=59842 helo=smtp5.home.nl) by smtpq2.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D6sA2-0000em-Gd; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:22:46 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:34546 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp5.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D6sA0-0007Sp-Pz; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:22:44 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: "Julian H. Stacey" In-Reply-To: <200503031519.j23FJoIY042729@fire.jhs.private> References: <200503031519.j23FJoIY042729@fire.jhs.private> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: SiteTronics Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:22:44 +0100 Message-Id: <1109863364.3932.191.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:22:48 -0000 On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 16:19 +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > "Devon H. O'Dell" wrote: > > On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 11:23 +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > Personal (& list/ group) preferences for http://FreeBSD.com > > > to be fixed or variable width, are Irrelevant & a waste of our > > > reading time. http://freebsd.com points at freebsd.org but could > > > switch. Owner has not given or sold domain to us. > > > whois freebsd.com > > > Registrant: > > > Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (DKWSKOEOWD) > > > Hardstrasse 235 > > > Zurich, ZH 8005 > > > Please be more realistic on issues. There's too much hot air on this list. > > > > As I have stated before, the idea is to have a site readily available > > and endorsed by the project as a PR site for businesses and > > corporations. Whether or not the site is accessible via FreeBSD.com is > > irrelevant. > > I don't mean personal criticism of any one person. But ... > There's Far too much idle chat on advocacy@. Some should subscribe chat@, > & some of us should direct windy threads & people to chat@ > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat Contrary to some others on this list, I have consistently put my money where my mouth is. > Noise to signal ratio on advocacy@ remains so high I'm considering > unsubscribing again, unfortunate as I'm interested in Practical BSD advocacy > ( Created a BSD-UG, initiated BSD leaflet for exhibitions, > organised BSD stands etc http://berklix.org/bim/leaflet/ ). > > Advocacy@ should contain only what Helps BSD Advocacy, eg: > "Who will help man a BSD stand in _Your_City_ in 2 weeks ?" > "Who will help man a BSD install event in _Your_City_ in 2 weeks ?" > "Who will co-author a BSD book ?" > "Here's a _maintained_ URL, to print/forward to acquaintances who > ask the eternal question: "Why use BSD rather than Linux ?"" > > No defocused chat on advocacy@ please. _Please_ chat on chat@ !! You're right in this case. This thread is starting to really get more chat oriented. Unfortunately I don't (nor do I care to) subscribe to chat@, so I'll just let it die. Thanks for pointing this out; I don't think I would have been objective enough to see it :) > - > Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com > Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 18:12:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9197A16A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:12:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.tyndale.com (mail1.tyndale.com [68.74.233.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A9A43D2D for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:12:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from harrison@tbc.net) Received: from mailnode1.tyndale.com (unverified) by mail1.tyndale.com for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:12:11 -0600 Received: from [10.192.106.39] ([10.192.106.39]) by mailnode1.tyndale.com; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:11:59 -0600 Message-ID: <4227541E.8060006@tbc.net> Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:14:54 -0600 From: Shawn Harrison User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <200503031519.j23FJoIY042729@fire.jhs.private> In-Reply-To: <200503031519.j23FJoIY042729@fire.jhs.private> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:12:06 -0000 Julian H. Stacey wrote [03/03/05 9:19 AM]: > Advocacy@ should contain only what Helps BSD Advocacy, eg: > "Who will help man a BSD stand in _Your_City_ in 2 weeks ?" > "Who will help man a BSD install event in _Your_City_ in 2 weeks ?" > "Who will co-author a BSD book ?" > "Here's a _maintained_ URL, to print/forward to acquaintances who > ask the eternal question: "Why use BSD rather than Linux ?"" > > No defocused chat on advocacy@ please. _Please_ chat on chat@ !! Would you please clarify what you mean by "defocused chat"? Does discussion of the best ways to go about advocating FreeBSD count as "chat" in your mind? Most of what has been discussed recently (apart from the religious flamewar, et al.) _has_ been related to the topic of "FreeBSD advocacy". Frankly, I don't see much going on here -- in the past few days, especially -- that violates the charter of the list: FreeBSD evangelism Furthering the Use of FreeBSD Share ideas and plan to increase the number of companies and individuals using FreeBSD It seems that you are objecting to the list being used for discussion at all, if your allowed usage list is any indication. But this is a different question entirely from whether posts have been on or off topic. There's nothing wrong with on-topic discussion, even if it does mean a higher flow of mail than what this list has seen in the past. In fact, the topics in the list chart are inherently verbose. How do you "share ideas and plan X" without a lot of mails going back and forth? Would you please clarify what off-topic conversation has been taking place? Let's confine the scope to the past two weeks, just for the sake of discussion. Shawn Harrison From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 18:54:50 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65A016A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:54:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2202543D58 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:54:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2285) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D6vTD-000129-3R; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:54:47 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:54:17 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B67@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'Julian H. Stacey'" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:54:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:54:50 -0000 From: Julian H. Stacey [mailto:jhs@berklix.org] > > No defocused chat on advocacy@ please. _Please_ chat on chat@ !! In other words, we're not allowed to discuss the specific implementation of advocacy? For example, websites? Poster One: "I've put up a great new advocacy site!" Poster Two: "Aaargh! My eyes, my eyes! Don't use blue text on an orange background!" Poster One: "Your comments are inappropriate for advocacy!" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 21:01:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D0B316A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:01:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB63843D1D for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:01:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A5090.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.80.144]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j23L1UYS054589 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:01:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j23L2maD009322 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:02:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j23L2mmr004227 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:02:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200503032102.j23L2mmr004227@fire.jhs.private> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message from Johnson David <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B67@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:02:48 +0100 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:01:33 -0000 > In other words, we're not allowed to discuss the specific implementation of > advocacy? For example, websites? > > Poster One: "I've put up a great new advocacy site!" > > Poster Two: "Aaargh! My eyes, my eyes! Don't use blue text on an orange > background!" > > Poster One: "Your comments are inappropriate for advocacy!" Post to a forum of webmasters, not advocacy@, to discuss web design. Likely same techniques whether promoting BSD or sewage pumps. Post to a shoe designers forum, not advocacy@, to discuss comfortable style of shoe to walk round a computer district of cities in, while advocating bookshops should stock & sell BSD cdroms. Comfortable web pages & comfortable shoes are the medium, not the message. Prating with web sites & debating about web style among the already BSD- converted is hot air. For advocacy@ Better discuss eg how to find a BSD stand sponsor, fund, print & distribute BSD flyers. Get a BSD talk inserted in a tech seminar. Seek an opening to do a BSD presentation to companies... [see next post] - Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 21:11:46 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C54216A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:11:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD8E43D48 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:11:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A5090.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.80.144]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j23LBhYS054649 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:11:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j23LD3Dc009337 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:13:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j23LD3A0004361 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:13:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Received: (from jhs@localhost) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id j23LD3Ro004360; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:13:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:13:03 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200503032113.j23LD3Ro004360@fire.jhs.private> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: "Julian Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.com/~jhs/ Fcc: sent-mail User-agent: EXMH http://beedub.com/exmh/ on FreeBSD http://freebsd.org Subject: Anyone done a BSD presentation to a Chamber of Commerce etc ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:11:46 -0000 Anyone done a BSD presentation to a Chamber of Commerce etc ? (= IHK in Germany), that might be a particularly effective way of advocating BSD to a wide influential group of decision makers ? CNN has a (TV not web) feature on free software in business this week, so a good time to approach business wherever CNN is watched ? - Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 21:34:26 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F24916A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:34:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD4D343D5A for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:34:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2941) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D6xxf-0005Zl-4W; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 13:34:23 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:33:55 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B6B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'Julian H. Stacey'" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:33:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:34:26 -0000 From: Julian H. Stacey [mailto:jhs@berklix.org] > > Post to a forum of webmasters, not advocacy@, to discuss web design. > Likely same techniques whether promoting BSD or sewage pumps. Let me see if I understand this correctly: advocacy@ is for the sole purpose of announcement? As in announcing websites, but not critiqueing them? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 22:32:02 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8637D16A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:32:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 293C443D46 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:32:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j23MBVdb064153; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:11:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id j23MBUOw064152; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:11:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:11:30 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: Johnson David Message-ID: <20050303141130.E56544@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B6B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B6B@mvaexch01.acuson.com>; from davidjohnson@siemens.com on Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 01:33:54PM -0800 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "'Julian H. Stacey'" Subject: Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:32:02 -0000 On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 01:33:54PM -0800, Johnson David wrote: > From: Julian H. Stacey [mailto:jhs@berklix.org] > > > > Post to a forum of webmasters, not advocacy@, to discuss web design. > > Likely same techniques whether promoting BSD or sewage pumps. > > Let me see if I understand this correctly: advocacy@ is for the sole purpose > of announcement? As in announcing websites, but not critiqueing them? No, advocacy is defined as the act or process of advocating or supporting a cause or proposal, in this case the FreeBSD operating system. There are many of us that are on this list because it's low traffic and tends to stick to the topic of advocating the FreeBSD operating system. It seems to be a serious stretch to suggest that an extended discussion of html width being static or not advocates the FreeBSD operating system. On an actual advocacy note, look for a FreeBSD press release describing the switchover of a fair sized webhosting company to FreeBSD to be coming out shortly ;-) cheers, -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 23:24:45 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C93D116A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:24:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED0243D2F for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:24:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:28:19 -0600 Message-ID: <42279CB4.9060304@daleco.biz> Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:24:36 -0600 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matt Olander References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B6B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <20050303141130.E56544@knight.ixsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <20050303141130.E56544@knight.ixsystems.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2005 23:28:20.0639 (UTC) FILETIME=[AFA382F0:01C52048] cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "'Julian H. Stacey'" Subject: Cool, Matt! (was Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:24:45 -0000 Matt Olander wrote: > On an actual advocacy note, look for a FreeBSD press release describing > >the switchover of a fair sized webhosting company to FreeBSD to be >coming out shortly ;-) > >cheers, >-matt > > Cool! Back to the subject. Recently you mentioned "State of Florida", but I've never seen any press on that. Anyone know why? I guess it could be I don't get out enough .... :-D Kevin Kinsey From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 23:32:47 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EF216A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:32:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA58D43D41 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:32:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j23NCKdb064692; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:12:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id j23NCKSa064691; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:12:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:12:20 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: Kevin Kinsey Message-ID: <20050303151220.H56544@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B6B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <20050303141130.E56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <42279CB4.9060304@daleco.biz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <42279CB4.9060304@daleco.biz>; from kdk@daleco.biz on Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 05:24:36PM -0600 cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cool, Matt! (was Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:32:48 -0000 On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 05:24:36PM -0600, Kevin Kinsey wrote: > Cool! Back to the subject. Recently you mentioned > "State of Florida", but I've never seen any press on that. > > Anyone know why? > > I guess it could be I don't get out enough .... :-D shhhhhh! that was linux! we need another movie to be made using FreeBSD clusters! does it count if Pixar is using Mac OSX servers? -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 23:46:20 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A037816A4CE for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:46:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539E543D54 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:46:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j23NPwdb064808; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:25:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id j23NPwhu064807; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:25:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:25:58 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: Kevin Kinsey Message-ID: <20050303152558.I56544@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B6B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <20050303141130.E56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <42279CB4.9060304@daleco.biz> <20050303151220.H56544@knight.ixsystems.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20050303151220.H56544@knight.ixsystems.net>; from matt@offmyserver.com on Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 03:12:20PM -0800 cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cool, Matt! (was Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:46:20 -0000 On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 03:12:20PM -0800, Matt Olander wrote: > On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 05:24:36PM -0600, Kevin Kinsey wrote: > > Cool! Back to the subject. Recently you mentioned > > "State of Florida", but I've never seen any press on that. > > > > Anyone know why? > > > > I guess it could be I don't get out enough .... :-D > > shhhhhh! that was linux! > we need another movie to be made using FreeBSD clusters! > > does it count if Pixar is using Mac OSX servers? I know, responding to my own post. How sad! But, after I sent this, I thought it would be interesting to actually find this out! So, I called Pixar and after banging around on the phone for a bit, I got an operator... Me: Hi, this is Matt calling on behalf of the FreeBSD project, can I talk to somebody in Public Relations or in your Animation department? Pixar: Can you tell me what this is regarding? Me: Sure, the FreeBSD project is the Unix-based operating system that Apple OSX is based on. We're curious if any of the movies that Pixar makes are created using Renderman running on Apple OSX servers. If so, I'd love to talk to somebody about it! Pixar: And you said you are with FreeVSG corporation? Me: No, The FreeBSD project. . It's an operating system created by volunteers around the world. Pixar: Hmmm...I'm not sure who you should talk to. What is it that you need? Me: You've heard of Linux? Pixar: Oh yes, the cute pengiun, right? Me: Yes, yes! That's right! We're kind of like that, only better! Anyone in Public Relations would be great. Pixar: Ok! One moment.... At any rate, she put me through to Pixar's Manager of Public Relations, who didn't know what the hell I was talking about either. After a few minutes of explanation, he gave me his contact information and said that if I sent an email, he'd find out if they use OSX for any of their work. Fun stuff :-) -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 3 23:56:43 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB6416A4D3 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:56:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.184]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B89B43D48 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:56:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dlavigne6@sympatico.ca) Received: from [192.168.2.87] ([67.70.71.184]) by tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20050303235641.SSOP1919.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@[192.168.2.87]>; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:56:41 -0500 Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:03:40 -0500 (EST) From: Dru X-X-Sender: dlavigne6@dru.domain.org To: Matt Olander In-Reply-To: <20050303152558.I56544@knight.ixsystems.net> Message-ID: <20050303190137.K568@dru.domain.org> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B6B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <42279CB4.9060304@daleco.biz> <20050303152558.I56544@knight.ixsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cool, Matt! (was Re: Logo idea and FreeBSD.com concept) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:56:43 -0000 On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Matt Olander wrote: > But, after I sent this, I thought it would be interesting to actually > find this out! So, I called Pixar and after banging around on the phone > for a bit, I got an operator... This is as good as the bikeshed :-) Deserves to preserved in the miscellaneous questions section of the handbook... Dru From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 4 04:11:53 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01CF316A4CE for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 04:11:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from usw2.natel.net (2b.bz [209.152.117.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DBE4143D55 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 04:11:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from WD@US-Webmasters.com) Received: (qmail 55528 invoked from network); 4 Mar 2005 04:11:49 -0000 Received: from batv-01-023.dialup.netins.net (HELO Htebazile.US-Webmasters.com) (216.248.109.24) by us-webmasters.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 2005 04:11:49 -0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050303220921.1106a620@209.152.117.178> X-Sender: wd@209.152.117.178 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:10:59 -0600 To: advocacy@freebsd.org From: "W. D." In-Reply-To: <20050303152558.I56544@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <20050303151220.H56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B6B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <20050303141130.E56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <42279CB4.9060304@daleco.biz> <20050303151220.H56544@knight.ixsystems.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Cool, Matt! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 04:11:53 -0000 At 17:25 3/3/2005, Matt Olander, wrote: >At any rate, she put me through to Pixar's Manager of Public Relations, >who didn't know what the hell I was talking about either. After a few= minutes >of explanation, he gave me his contact information and said that if I >sent an email, he'd find out if they use OSX for any of their work. > >Fun stuff :-) Perhaps the Manager of Informations Systems would know better: http://www.Google.com/search?q=3Dfreebsd+site%3APixar.com Start Here to Find It Fast!=99 ->= http://www.US-Webmasters.com/best-start-page/ $8.77 Domain Names -> http://domains.us-webmasters.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 4 07:01:18 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8FF16A4CE for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:01:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2242743D2F for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:01:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j246ewdb066917; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:40:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id j246ewEb066916; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:40:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:40:57 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: "W. D." Message-ID: <20050303224057.A66894@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <20050303151220.H56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B6B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <20050303141130.E56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <42279CB4.9060304@daleco.biz> <20050303151220.H56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <20050303152558.I56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050303220921.1106a620@209.152.117.178> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050303220921.1106a620@209.152.117.178>; from WD@US-Webmasters.com on Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 10:10:59PM -0600 cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cool, Matt! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 07:01:18 -0000 On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 10:10:59PM -0600, W. D. wrote: > Perhaps the Manager of Informations Systems would know better: > http://www.Google.com/search?q=freebsd+site%3APixar.com haha! good call! :-) -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 4 16:29:22 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AFA216A4CE for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:29:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bgo1smout1.broadpark.no (bgo1smout1.broadpark.no [217.13.4.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E843643D39 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:29:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from bgo1sminn1.broadpark.no ([217.13.4.93]) by bgo1smout1.broadpark.no (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.05 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0ICU002M65JXHP70@bgo1smout1.broadpark.no> for advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:23:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from dsa.des.no ([80.203.228.37]) by bgo1sminn1.broadpark.no (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.05 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0ICU00B4S5W9ECN0@bgo1sminn1.broadpark.no> for advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:31:21 +0100 (CET) Received: by dsa.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id E7E8E45171; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:29:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from xps.des.no (xps.des.no [10.0.0.12]) by dsa.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 4DA1045157; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:29:15 +0100 (CET) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 454C833C1B; Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:29:15 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:29:15 +0100 From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) In-reply-to: <20050303152558.I56544@knight.ixsystems.net> To: Matt Olander Message-id: <868y53l6hw.fsf@xps.des.no> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on dsa.des.no References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B6B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <20050303141130.E56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <42279CB4.9060304@daleco.biz> <20050303151220.H56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <20050303152558.I56544@knight.ixsystems.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Level: cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cool, Matt! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:29:22 -0000 Matt Olander writes: > Me: Hi, this is Matt calling on behalf of the FreeBSD project, [...] That was a gross misrepresentation. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 4 17:49:36 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7088B16A4CE for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:49:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337E243D1D for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:49:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j24HT6db070792; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:29:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id j24HT5hD070791; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:29:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:29:05 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-ID: <20050304092905.A65546@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B6B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <20050303141130.E56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <42279CB4.9060304@daleco.biz> <20050303151220.H56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <20050303152558.I56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <868y53l6hw.fsf@xps.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <868y53l6hw.fsf@xps.des.no>; from des@des.no on Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 05:29:15PM +0100 cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cool, Matt! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:49:36 -0000 On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 05:29:15PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Matt Olander writes: > > Me: Hi, this is Matt calling on behalf of the FreeBSD project, [...] > > That was a gross misrepresentation. Yeah, now if only we can get more and more people to misrepresent themselves :-P -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 4 22:15:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3BFC16A4CF for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:15:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5A543D4C for ; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:15:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:19:31 -0600 Message-ID: <4228DE18.9040103@daleco.biz> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:15:52 -0600 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matt Olander References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B6B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <20050303141130.E56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <42279CB4.9060304@daleco.biz> <20050303151220.H56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <20050303152558.I56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <868y53l6hw.fsf@xps.des.no> <20050304092905.A65546@knight.ixsystems.net> In-Reply-To: <20050304092905.A65546@knight.ixsystems.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Mar 2005 22:19:32.0014 (UTC) FILETIME=[3D3314E0:01C52108] cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cool, Matt! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 22:15:57 -0000 Matt Olander wrote: >On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 05:29:15PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > > >>Matt Olander writes: >> >> >>>Me: Hi, this is Matt calling on behalf of the FreeBSD project, [...] >>> >>> >>That was a gross misrepresentation. >> >> > >Yeah, now if only we can get more and more people to misrepresent >themselves :-P > >-matt > > I guess it's possible that it was a "gross misrepresentation", but why should we be seen as picking on Matt? (Maybe you're not, I can't say as I can tell just by reading). I'd characterize his advocacy of FreeBSD as "visible and valuable", and in the US many people believed Leo Laporte when he said "they're both members of the FreeBSD Project" in regard to Matt and Brooks Davis. Leo may have been wrong, but he apparently believed that Matt (and Brooks) represented the Project. At the very least, they were doing so on that TV show.* Maybe I misinterpret? Heck, this could be an "inside joke" I'm sticking my nose into. I"m sure not trying to offend anyone. Ok, then ... advocacy: I note that Pixar is looking for a Render Farm sysadmin. Maybe we need a FBSD guy in that job.... Kevin Kinsey {*It kinda begs the question of who one is representing when (s)he advocates FreeBSD, and at what point one's contributions make him/her part of the "Project". The "contributing" article, for example, states in part: "The Project includes documentation writers, Web designers, and support people." By that definition, since somebody on doc@ has committed some text I typed to the doc tree, I could say, "I'm part of the FreeBSD Project".} From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 5 11:50:28 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8042416A4CE for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:50:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bgo1smout1.broadpark.no (bgo1smout1.broadpark.no [217.13.4.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D165B43D49 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:50:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from bgo1sminn1.broadpark.no ([217.13.4.93]) by bgo1smout1.broadpark.no (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.05 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0ICV003TRNB3DP90@bgo1smout1.broadpark.no> for advocacy@freebsd.org; Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:45:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from dsa.des.no ([80.203.228.37]) by bgo1sminn1.broadpark.no (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.05 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0ICV00E6RNNEFU10@bgo1sminn1.broadpark.no> for advocacy@freebsd.org; Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:52:26 +0100 (CET) Received: by dsa.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id B97B44519E; Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:50:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from xps.des.no (xps.des.no [10.0.0.12]) by dsa.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id BFB3945171; Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:50:18 +0100 (CET) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B685333C5A; Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:50:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:50:18 +0100 From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) In-reply-to: <4228DE18.9040103@daleco.biz> To: Kevin Kinsey Message-id: <864qfq1fd1.fsf@xps.des.no> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on dsa.des.no References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B6B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <20050303141130.E56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <42279CB4.9060304@daleco.biz> <20050303151220.H56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <20050303152558.I56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <868y53l6hw.fsf@xps.des.no> <20050304092905.A65546@knight.ixsystems.net> <4228DE18.9040103@daleco.biz> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BIZ_TLD autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Level: cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cool, Matt! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:50:28 -0000 Kevin Kinsey writes: > I guess it's possible that it was a "gross misrepresentation", but > why should we be seen as picking on Matt? (Maybe you're not, > I can't say as I can tell just by reading). I'd characterize his > advocacy of FreeBSD as "visible and valuable", and in the US > many people believed Leo Laporte when he said "they're both > members of the FreeBSD Project" in regard to Matt and Brooks > Davis. Matt and Murray Stokeley, actually. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 5 18:26:16 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39C7816A4DF for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:26:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D79943D49 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:26:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j25I5edb081275; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:05:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id j25I5ePt081274; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:05:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:05:40 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-ID: <20050305100539.A81249@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B6B@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <20050303141130.E56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <42279CB4.9060304@daleco.biz> <20050303151220.H56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <20050303152558.I56544@knight.ixsystems.net> <868y53l6hw.fsf@xps.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <868y53l6hw.fsf@xps.des.no>; from des@des.no on Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 05:29:15PM +0100 cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cool, Matt! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 18:26:16 -0000 On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 05:29:15PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Matt Olander writes: > > Me: Hi, this is Matt calling on behalf of the FreeBSD project, [...] > > That was a gross misrepresentation. 'on behalf' means in support or defense of. that's why I jokingly say we need more people to 'misrepresent' themselves this way. -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain