From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 15 15:38:55 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC4216A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:38:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts20.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C3E43D39 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:38:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dlavigne6@sympatico.ca) Received: from [192.168.2.87] ([67.70.71.184]) by tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20050315153853.LQBJ2034.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@[192.168.2.87]> for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:38:53 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:46:02 -0500 (EST) From: Dru X-X-Sender: dlavigne6@dru.domain.org To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:38:55 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Greetings, Below is the first press release regarding the BSD Certification Group. We will be developing the new BSD Certification initiative throughout the coming months. As more news on this certification becomes available we will provide you with the details. I will be happy to provide further background on the BSD Certification Group. Please indicate a request for interview in the subject line. Please distribute through your normal channels. Thanks and Kind Regards, Dru Lavigne dru@isecom.org - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- March 15, 2005 BSD Certification Group Takes Initiative Today, the BSD Certification Group officially announces their website and group focused in the creation of BSD certification. The public website is at http://www.bsdcertification.org/. A number of BSD developers, systems administrators and advocates have come together to begin the first steps in the creation of a standard BSD certification. Today marks the official launch of their public website at http://www.bsdcertification.org/. The BSDs, including FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD and DragonflyBSD, are mature operating systems based on the original Unix developed at University of Berkeley, California. BSD powers global Internet service provider infrastructures, and BSD userland applications are familiar to those running Apple's OS X operating system. BSD tools like OpenSSH are used to securely access remote systems, and many TCP/IP stacks are derived from BSD. "While some may feel that a BSD certification would just replicate the problems that other certifications have created, namely lack of experience masked by a piece of paper, the committee is convinced that with the proper preparation and testing criteria, a tiered BSD certification process can demonstrate real-world proficiency as well as provide a goal for those just beginning their systems and network administration career," said Dru Lavigne, networking and Unix instructor and the chair for the group. The BSD Certification Group looks to bring together the BSD projects, important vendors, educational institutions and beyond to work to make this project a success. The group invites all who are interested to subscribe to the public BSD certification mailing list at http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/bsdcert. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 mQENA0I27w4AAAEIALaARCYGJEiyVmEwd94Bw4YRRBDqK7WFwcETjBLj1NWSAVWa 7byLDz7Tg31+ur4kagzbuLvvLgn9At/2fcOKc3qbVKwzmFiVdC9pNRMWRGMD/57k 7915g7rOV34+19eBWs1e1MubSLzBoL7nYiz8tZLe3eSfFPTA1VRT5y/tfTuZ8ejP FeYzB6l1lRdRRkUK0lySf8q6r7D+l8Bl/P4Cr2FF0DPLPeB6uUuH8t0lDJN3gLjD qDxaPxj41iw4o6JoV5oBSMBQS0GmGWDh8QMLELYVgOQfDliuSW0vpwZkR5QekhOu LEzir5zVk9gAcq002aseCfFILtdi/3G6FahG3MkABRG0HERydSBMYXZpZ25lIDxk cnVAaXNlY29tLm9yZz6JARUDBRBCNu8O/3G6FahG3MkBAWn3B/4rWmi18/XYynlI idwjKCG+MxVGjum/BMnlWCXUBSOFk08M7t2UK/kQXeFwxY6gfPO3UFt6T+qr1JNf 8IEFFSHsPaEjYYnGvkz6hPCSCT7ZHFGA/WpkJPCugGR7+j9SpOPr3qIHa5Zjg/vn lMAFmWG1o29wAXNFBFf9GNmKUyYZgTygliTXK8Hi9HZHOaCmP+DLPCDSaDs87dBH VrWHXZ/xHNcEDD6gJ9mLfosxOmwC1cNHnFaZYBVuBJyrpwLu+DcYubMOuxS+Sxa7 lGZxsrmxVK5clYgJHNEW9Mc9zY5/4ekGg2JPQNr5T813GwArkuoNq4RA0hdnWSPV nJYo2Lbl =KPQv - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQEVAwUBQjcDRP9xuhWoRtzJAQHoqwf/Q3pJ3tWR77naAd+JYtuaw8L4F9q/WCdJ jA9G2sSFzk1Lmdt5cuBzCebTsjrrO5M5gfKhzvvIp61LQpq6M7j+vBCEEqwxn0Vk nxRSeSnfJn7NQcvYvPigLsQw50vYz83F7ov4GDludeB2ds4NhJSR+oHqS1K0TNYC vRQfSbtAfXrL35RVeW/dDzEKJX7rzpGvVwJbOHV/IAwsXKgRF4TjB++B2m9RXIvd 4fbAs41ZuJGFd5xaNOVmKhm/8RYScpepEFEQZBmRFAC4eJj5vYK8sEdBuB5a3Anx DaHzsyMq98r3mRsqGbJA4xRqOEESdnell0Ebs91KKhmOG1iOvaLgog== =cj0v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 15 18:31:53 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED15C16A4EE for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:31:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C6B343D31 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:31:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j2FICS4S056760; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:12:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id j2FICSiY056759; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:12:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:12:28 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: Dru Message-ID: <20050315101228.Q25559@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org>; from dlavigne6@sympatico.ca on Tue, Mar 15, 2005 at 10:46:02AM -0500 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:31:53 -0000 On Tue, Mar 15, 2005 at 10:46:02AM -0500, Dru wrote: > Below is the first press release regarding the BSD Certification Group. > We will be developing the new BSD Certification initiative throughout > the coming months. As more news on this certification becomes available > we will provide you with the details. > > I will be happy to provide further background on the BSD Certification > Group. Please indicate a request for interview in the subject line. > > Please distribute through your normal channels. Awesome Dru! If there's anything we can do to help, let me know! -matt > March 15, 2005 > > BSD Certification Group Takes Initiative > > Today, the BSD Certification Group officially announces their website and > group focused in the creation of BSD certification. The public website is > at http://www.bsdcertification.org/. > > A number of BSD developers, systems administrators and advocates have > come together to begin the first steps in the creation of a standard > BSD certification. Today marks the official launch of their public > website at http://www.bsdcertification.org/. > > The BSDs, including FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD and DragonflyBSD, are > mature operating systems based on the original Unix developed at > University of Berkeley, California. BSD powers global Internet service > provider infrastructures, and BSD userland applications are familiar to > those running Apple's OS X operating system. BSD tools like OpenSSH are > used to securely access remote systems, and many TCP/IP stacks are derived > from BSD. > > "While some may feel that a BSD certification would just replicate the > problems that other certifications have created, namely lack of experience > masked by a piece of paper, the committee is convinced that with the > proper preparation and testing criteria, a tiered BSD certification process > can demonstrate real-world proficiency as well as provide a goal for those > just beginning their systems and network administration career," said > Dru Lavigne, networking and Unix instructor and the chair for the group. > > The BSD Certification Group looks to bring together the BSD projects, > important vendors, educational institutions and beyond to work to make > this project a success. > > The group invites all who are interested to subscribe to the public BSD > certification mailing list at http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/bsdcert. > > - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 > > mQENA0I27w4AAAEIALaARCYGJEiyVmEwd94Bw4YRRBDqK7WFwcETjBLj1NWSAVWa > 7byLDz7Tg31+ur4kagzbuLvvLgn9At/2fcOKc3qbVKwzmFiVdC9pNRMWRGMD/57k > 7915g7rOV34+19eBWs1e1MubSLzBoL7nYiz8tZLe3eSfFPTA1VRT5y/tfTuZ8ejP > FeYzB6l1lRdRRkUK0lySf8q6r7D+l8Bl/P4Cr2FF0DPLPeB6uUuH8t0lDJN3gLjD > qDxaPxj41iw4o6JoV5oBSMBQS0GmGWDh8QMLELYVgOQfDliuSW0vpwZkR5QekhOu > LEzir5zVk9gAcq002aseCfFILtdi/3G6FahG3MkABRG0HERydSBMYXZpZ25lIDxk > cnVAaXNlY29tLm9yZz6JARUDBRBCNu8O/3G6FahG3MkBAWn3B/4rWmi18/XYynlI > idwjKCG+MxVGjum/BMnlWCXUBSOFk08M7t2UK/kQXeFwxY6gfPO3UFt6T+qr1JNf > 8IEFFSHsPaEjYYnGvkz6hPCSCT7ZHFGA/WpkJPCugGR7+j9SpOPr3qIHa5Zjg/vn > lMAFmWG1o29wAXNFBFf9GNmKUyYZgTygliTXK8Hi9HZHOaCmP+DLPCDSaDs87dBH > VrWHXZ/xHNcEDD6gJ9mLfosxOmwC1cNHnFaZYBVuBJyrpwLu+DcYubMOuxS+Sxa7 > lGZxsrmxVK5clYgJHNEW9Mc9zY5/4ekGg2JPQNr5T813GwArkuoNq4RA0hdnWSPV > nJYo2Lbl > =KPQv > - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGP 6.5.8 > > iQEVAwUBQjcDRP9xuhWoRtzJAQHoqwf/Q3pJ3tWR77naAd+JYtuaw8L4F9q/WCdJ > jA9G2sSFzk1Lmdt5cuBzCebTsjrrO5M5gfKhzvvIp61LQpq6M7j+vBCEEqwxn0Vk > nxRSeSnfJn7NQcvYvPigLsQw50vYz83F7ov4GDludeB2ds4NhJSR+oHqS1K0TNYC > vRQfSbtAfXrL35RVeW/dDzEKJX7rzpGvVwJbOHV/IAwsXKgRF4TjB++B2m9RXIvd > 4fbAs41ZuJGFd5xaNOVmKhm/8RYScpepEFEQZBmRFAC4eJj5vYK8sEdBuB5a3Anx > DaHzsyMq98r3mRsqGbJA4xRqOEESdnell0Ebs91KKhmOG1iOvaLgog== > =cj0v > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 15 23:01:37 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C444016A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:01:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de (ms-2.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.131]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138BA43D48 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:01:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@unixpages.org) Received: from r220-1 (r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.31]) by ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0IDF00IGY1ANZZ@ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de> for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:01:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.rwth-aachen.de ([134.130.3.1]) by r220-1 (MailMonitor for SMTP v1.2.2 ) ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:01:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from haakonia.hitnet.rwth-aachen.de (haakonia.hitnet.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.181.92])j2FN1Wcc014727; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:01:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from gondor.middleearth (gondor.middleearth [192.168.1.42]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits))(Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E1228450; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:01:27 +0100 (CET) Received: by gondor.middleearth (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E4DBD2285A; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:01:26 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:01:26 +0100 From: Christian Brueffer In-reply-to: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> To: Dru Message-id: <20050315230126.GG64781@unixpages.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=y0Ed1hDcWxc3B7cn; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 6.0-CURRENT X-PGP-Key: http://people.FreeBSD.org/~brueffer/brueffer.key.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: A5C8 2099 19FF AACA F41B B29B 6C76 178C A0ED 982D References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:01:37 -0000 --y0Ed1hDcWxc3B7cn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 15, 2005 at 10:46:02AM -0500, Dru wrote: >=20 > Greetings, >=20 > Below is the first press release regarding the BSD Certification Group. > We will be developing the new BSD Certification initiative throughout > the coming months. As more news on this certification becomes available > we will provide you with the details. >=20 > I will be happy to provide further background on the BSD Certification=20 > Group. Please indicate a request for interview in the subject line. >=20 > Please distribute through your normal channels. >=20 Great news! Does this have anything to do with bsdcertification.com? I confused the two earlier today and took the .com site as the real thing. - Christian --=20 Christian Brueffer chris@unixpages.org brueffer@FreeBSD.org GPG Key: http://people.freebsd.org/~brueffer/brueffer.key.asc GPG Fingerprint: A5C8 2099 19FF AACA F41B B29B 6C76 178C A0ED 982D --y0Ed1hDcWxc3B7cn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCN2lGbHYXjKDtmC0RAswiAKDTww9BEPH0h+ACG7eRa4dVOMHRaQCePcnS +tFoMMMca0TQM5g6Y3Ceahc= =tAMR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --y0Ed1hDcWxc3B7cn-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 15 23:18:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A00C816A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:18:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB59543D2D for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:18:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dlavigne6@sympatico.ca) Received: from [192.168.2.87] ([67.70.71.184]) by tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20050315231824.REVN2034.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@[192.168.2.87]>; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:18:24 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:25:43 -0500 (EST) From: Dru X-X-Sender: dlavigne6@dru.domain.org To: Christian Brueffer In-Reply-To: <20050315230126.GG64781@unixpages.org> Message-ID: <20050315182029.U574@dru.domain.org> References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> <20050315230126.GG64781@unixpages.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:18:27 -0000 On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Christian Brueffer wrote: > On Tue, Mar 15, 2005 at 10:46:02AM -0500, Dru wrote: >> >> Greetings, >> >> Below is the first press release regarding the BSD Certification Group. >> We will be developing the new BSD Certification initiative throughout >> the coming months. As more news on this certification becomes available >> we will provide you with the details. >> >> I will be happy to provide further background on the BSD Certification >> Group. Please indicate a request for interview in the subject line. >> >> Please distribute through your normal channels. >> > > Great news! > > Does this have anything to do with bsdcertification.com? I confused the > two earlier today and took the .com site as the real thing. The ".org" has no relation to the ".com". It's just a quirky coincidence that these two initiatives happened to be born around the same time. Dru From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 15 23:35:52 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A588D16A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:35:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from relay.rdsnet.ro (gimli.rdsnet.ro [193.231.236.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 67FC943D4C for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:35:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from itetcu@people.tecnik93.com) Received: (qmail 19591 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2005 23:30:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.rdsnet.ro) (62.231.74.130) by smtp1-133.rdsnet.ro with SMTP; 15 Mar 2005 23:30:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 27404 invoked by uid 89); 15 Mar 2005 23:42:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO it.buh.tecnik93.com) (81.196.204.98) by 0 with SMTP; 15 Mar 2005 23:42:51 -0000 Received: from it.buh.tecnik93.com (localhost.buh.tecnik93.com [127.0.0.1]) by it.buh.tecnik93.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6D94114D2; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 01:35:48 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 01:35:48 +0200 From: Ion-Mihai Tetcu To: Dru Message-ID: <20050316013548.7525377c@it.buh.tecnik93.com> In-Reply-To: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.0.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:35:52 -0000 On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:46:02 -0500 (EST) Dru wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > Greetings, > > Below is the first press release regarding the BSD Certification Group. > We will be developing the new BSD Certification initiative throughout > the coming months. As more news on this certification becomes available > we will provide you with the details. [ ... ] > > The group invites all who are interested to subscribe to the public BSD > certification mailing list at http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/bsdcert. Could I suggest changing the link for the wiki to something like example.org until the wiki is functional ? The present link is, hm, inappropriate and may lead to some easy jokes. -- IOnut Unregistered ;) FreeBSD "user" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 15 19:21:00 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 517A216A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:21:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED21443D1D for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:20:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 213721C000A6 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:20:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0854A1C0008B for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:20:57 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050315192058342.0854A1C0008B@mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:20:57 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <793354858.20050315202057@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050315101228.Q25559@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> <20050315101228.Q25559@knight.ixsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:41:02 +0000 Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:21:00 -0000 Remember: Always follow the money. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 16 14:05:17 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDCBE16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:05:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [216.201.118.142]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DC6D43D3F for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:05:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F7E060E8 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:05:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 65026-03 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:05:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from [216.201.118.138] (racerx.makeworld.com [216.201.118.138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B2860D8 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:05:10 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <42383D1F.20005@makeworld.com> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:05:19 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050313) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> <20050315101228.Q25559@knight.ixsystems.net> <793354858.20050315202057@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <793354858.20050315202057@wanadoo.fr> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.90.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: racerx@makeworld.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:05:17 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Remember: Always follow the money. I'm not entirely sure what this is 'sposed to mean. If it means what I think it does, I'll translate. Never mind the BSD certs, concentrate on MS certs - after all, that's where the money is at. Well for me, I will do the BSD certs only for personal satisfaction. Some people do get certs for that reason, while other do it for the money, and others do so for job requirements. So unless I'm wrong in my translation (and knowing Anthony, I'm not), that's what that pretty much means. Considering the types of user we BSD'ers seem to be (from my experiences) sure, we care about money, but I'm willing to bet that those of us that choose to do some sort of BSD certs, will be doing so for our own personal satisfaction. That says much about the type of folks most of us are. At least in my mind. -- Best regards, Chris A budget is saving quarters in a mason jar for Christmas and spending them by Easter. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 16 14:33:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A060A16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:33:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 630B543D3F for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:33:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=yoda.datawok.com) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1DBZaX-0006PI-IB; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:33:33 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:33:33 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> <20050315101228.Q25559@knight.ixsystems.net> <793354858.20050315202057@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <793354858.20050315202057@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200503160833.33796.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc57a420c2ec20fafd511095620e295acb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:33:34 -0000 On Tuesday 15 March 2005 01:20 pm, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Remember: Always follow the money. > Remember: Never be afraid to assess your own skills. How else can you identify, prioritize and correct your weaknesses? The process of becoming certified can be as valuable as the certification itself. Andrew L. Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 16 15:29:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2371E16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:29:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B205943D5D for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:29:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from warren@wandrsmith.net) Received: from CPE-65-28-44-243.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-28-44-243.kc.rr.com [65.28.44.243])j2GFTgWZ029139; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:29:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from www.wandrsmith.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by CPE-65-28-44-243.kc.rr.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 422105DDD; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:29:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from 204.167.177.68 (SquirrelMail authenticated user warren) by www.wandrsmith.net with HTTP; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:29:42 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <45825.204.167.177.68.1110986982.squirrel@www.wandrsmith.net> In-Reply-To: <200503160833.33796.algould@datawok.com> References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org><20050315101228.Q25559@knight.ixsystems.net><793354858.20050315202057@wanadoo.fr> <200503160833.33796.algould@datawok.com> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:29:42 -0600 (CST) From: "Warren Smith" To: "Andrew L. Gould" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: warren@wandrsmith.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:29:49 -0000 Andrew L. Gould said: > Remember: Never be afraid to assess your own skills. How else can you > identify, prioritize and correct your weaknesses? > > The process of becoming certified can be as valuable as the > certification itself. > I agree. I have quite a bit of experience in my field, but never completed a degree or any certifications. I am continually finding "theory gaps" in my knowledge because of this. I have recently gone back to school to finish my degree for two reasons: First, to try and fill on some of those "theory gaps", and Second, to get the "piece of paper" that is becoming more and more important for advancement in my current job or finding a better one. Certification programs can work similar to degree programs for filling the "theory gaps". They also look good on a resume and can enhance your marketability. They can't take the place of a degree or experience, but when combined with either, they definitely help. I am a professional programmer, not a sysadmin, so the value of having a BSD certification might not be as high for me as for others. However, it definitely couldn't hurt. I'll have to look into it once they actually have a program put together. -- Warren Smith warren@wandrsmith.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 16 18:02:09 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13F6B16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:02:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C35343D31 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:02:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 50E271C000AD for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:02:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 1EF3E1C00042 for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:02:07 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050316180207126.1EF3E1C00042@mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:02:06 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <786788698.20050316190206@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <42383D1F.20005@makeworld.com> References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> <20050315101228.Q25559@knight.ixsystems.net> <793354858.20050315202057@wanadoo.fr> <42383D1F.20005@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:45:08 +0000 Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:02:09 -0000 Chris writes: > I'm not entirely sure what this is 'sposed to mean. If it means what I > think it does, I'll translate. It means that the real purpose of certification--no matter what type of certification it might be--is to allow some people to make more money unfairly to the detriment of others. It pains me to see something like FreeBSD going down this path. Clearly, someone wants to make money off certifications, directly or indirectly, and no scruples prevent them from attacking the open-source domain to that end. Isn't it bad enough that this type of racket exists for proprietary software? Certification is a matter of some people calling themselves experts, devising tests to which only they are guaranteed to know all the answers, then charging other people to take the tests in an attempt to prove that they know exactly the same answers that the self-appointed experts know. Unfortunately, this says nothing about anyone's objective competence in the nominal domain of the test. It does make a lot of money for the people who devise and administer the tests, and it also restricts employment and artificially raises salaries for the few who are willing to go through the hazing ritual of certification. > Never mind the BSD certs, concentrate on MS certs - after all, that's > where the money is at. All certifications are designed to make money, nothing more and nothing less. > Well for me, I will do the BSD certs only for personal satisfaction. And who writes the exams, and what makes you believe that they are the ideal arbiters of competence? > Considering the types of user we BSD'ers seem to be (from my > experiences) sure, we care about money, but I'm willing to bet that > those of us that choose to do some sort of BSD certs, will be doing so > for our own personal satisfaction. I don't need a certification for my own personal satisfaction. I look to actual hands-on experience for that. Why trust a stranger to "certify" me, which I can find out firsthand in an indisputable way whether I'm competent or not? > That says much about the type of folks most of us are. At least > in my mind. It shows that even users of BSDs can be manipulated and hoodwinked. They may complain about the practices of a Microsoft or a Novell, but change the name and they fall immediately under the spell. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 17 12:59:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9072C16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:59:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.207]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D07E43D49 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:59:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 70so2776340wra for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 04:59:33 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=sUvswDUS6p/B/ZjJ9Nj7vwFt5dpRVERThvP8qZ/WYxjT753i4NIkK8s66dkaD6NL/GpNsLb+Rd9j5eV/4iiJxTKIkng7DkbJDj7VzSZJloKfAFd7LW9oWyKMbta+cuw1bEqO+jsCyzZvfHFxwrimdr9YkvJrwenqRkgen3wBy08= Received: by 10.54.35.69 with SMTP id i69mr610853wri; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 04:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 04:59:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e05031704593c07d6c1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 04:59:33 -0800 From: Astrodog To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <786788698.20050316190206@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> <20050315101228.Q25559@knight.ixsystems.net> <793354858.20050315202057@wanadoo.fr> <42383D1F.20005@makeworld.com> <786788698.20050316190206@wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:59:34 -0000 On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:02:06 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Chris writes: > > > I'm not entirely sure what this is 'sposed to mean. If it means what I > > think it does, I'll translate. > > It means that the real purpose of certification--no matter what type of > certification it might be--is to allow some people to make more money > unfairly to the detriment of others. > > It pains me to see something like FreeBSD going down this path. > Clearly, someone wants to make money off certifications, directly or > indirectly, and no scruples prevent them from attacking the open-source > domain to that end. > > Isn't it bad enough that this type of racket exists for proprietary > software? > > Certification is a matter of some people calling themselves experts, > devising tests to which only they are guaranteed to know all the > answers, then charging other people to take the tests in an attempt to > prove that they know exactly the same answers that the self-appointed > experts know. Unfortunately, this says nothing about anyone's objective > competence in the nominal domain of the test. It does make a lot of > money for the people who devise and administer the tests, and it also > restricts employment and artificially raises salaries for the few who > are willing to go through the hazing ritual of certification. > > > Never mind the BSD certs, concentrate on MS certs - after all, that's > > where the money is at. > > All certifications are designed to make money, nothing more and nothing > less. > > > Well for me, I will do the BSD certs only for personal satisfaction. > > And who writes the exams, and what makes you believe that they are the > ideal arbiters of competence? > > > Considering the types of user we BSD'ers seem to be (from my > > experiences) sure, we care about money, but I'm willing to bet that > > those of us that choose to do some sort of BSD certs, will be doing so > > for our own personal satisfaction. > > I don't need a certification for my own personal satisfaction. I look > to actual hands-on experience for that. Why trust a stranger to > "certify" me, which I can find out firsthand in an indisputable way > whether I'm competent or not? > > > That says much about the type of folks most of us are. At least > > in my mind. > > It shows that even users of BSDs can be manipulated and hoodwinked. > They may complain about the practices of a Microsoft or a Novell, but > change the name and they fall immediately under the spell. > > -- > Anthony > > Have you considered, that a certification program done in an open manner could be incredibly helpful for FreeBSD? You're making some rather large assumptions, the primary one being that the creation and design of the certification tests will be closed and no one except the arbiters will be involved. The reason certifications are required in some cases is that lets face it, you COULD be full of shit and know nothing about whatever product it is. Not only does this hurt whoever hires you, but it hurts whoever provides the product you're lying about. People unreasonably believe that whatever it is has limitations that it doesn't really have, simply because you weren't knowledgable about the product. As far as the last comment.... People complain about certifications? --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 17 12:51:26 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6129E16A4CE; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:51:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mh2.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C1F43D41; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:51:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from [10.177.171.220] (neutrino.centtech.com [10.177.171.220]) by mh2.centtech.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j2HCpOGW079383; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:51:24 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <42397D43.3070505@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:51:15 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> <20050315101228.Q25559@knight.ixsystems.net> <793354858.20050315202057@wanadoo.fr> <42383D1F.20005@makeworld.com> <786788698.20050316190206@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <786788698.20050316190206@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:14:06 +0000 Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:51:26 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Chris writes: > > >>I'm not entirely sure what this is 'sposed to mean. If it means what I >>think it does, I'll translate. > > > It means that the real purpose of certification--no matter what type of > certification it might be--is to allow some people to make more money > unfairly to the detriment of others. > > It pains me to see something like FreeBSD going down this path. > Clearly, someone wants to make money off certifications, directly or > indirectly, and no scruples prevent them from attacking the open-source > domain to that end. Zzzzz. Please move this to -chat (or better yet, /dev/null), as it is no longer advocating FreeBSD.. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Sr. Systems Administrator Centaur Technology I have seen the future and it is just like the present, only longer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 17 15:51:12 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE4B16A4CF for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:51:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts36.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1212943D2D for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:51:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dlavigne6@sympatico.ca) Received: from [192.168.2.87] ([64.230.155.214]) by tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20050317155109.VAWM1694.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@[192.168.2.87]>; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:51:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:58:32 -0500 (EST) From: Dru X-X-Sender: dlavigne6@dru.domain.org To: Anthony Atkielski In-Reply-To: <786788698.20050316190206@wanadoo.fr> Message-ID: <20050317105629.N574@dru.domain.org> References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> <20050315101228.Q25559@knight.ixsystems.net> <793354858.20050315202057@wanadoo.fr> <42383D1F.20005@makeworld.com> <786788698.20050316190206@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:51:12 -0000 Please continue this discussion on bsdcert@lists.nycbug.org as that mailing list was created for just such conversation. I will answer this post there and cc Anthony. Dru On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Chris writes: > >> I'm not entirely sure what this is 'sposed to mean. If it means what I >> think it does, I'll translate. > > It means that the real purpose of certification--no matter what type of > certification it might be--is to allow some people to make more money > unfairly to the detriment of others. > > It pains me to see something like FreeBSD going down this path. > Clearly, someone wants to make money off certifications, directly or > indirectly, and no scruples prevent them from attacking the open-source > domain to that end. > > Isn't it bad enough that this type of racket exists for proprietary > software? > > Certification is a matter of some people calling themselves experts, > devising tests to which only they are guaranteed to know all the > answers, then charging other people to take the tests in an attempt to > prove that they know exactly the same answers that the self-appointed > experts know. Unfortunately, this says nothing about anyone's objective > competence in the nominal domain of the test. It does make a lot of > money for the people who devise and administer the tests, and it also > restricts employment and artificially raises salaries for the few who > are willing to go through the hazing ritual of certification. > >> Never mind the BSD certs, concentrate on MS certs - after all, that's >> where the money is at. > > All certifications are designed to make money, nothing more and nothing > less. > >> Well for me, I will do the BSD certs only for personal satisfaction. > > And who writes the exams, and what makes you believe that they are the > ideal arbiters of competence? > >> Considering the types of user we BSD'ers seem to be (from my >> experiences) sure, we care about money, but I'm willing to bet that >> those of us that choose to do some sort of BSD certs, will be doing so >> for our own personal satisfaction. > > I don't need a certification for my own personal satisfaction. I look > to actual hands-on experience for that. Why trust a stranger to > "certify" me, which I can find out firsthand in an indisputable way > whether I'm competent or not? > >> That says much about the type of folks most of us are. At least >> in my mind. > > It shows that even users of BSDs can be manipulated and hoodwinked. > They may complain about the practices of a Microsoft or a Novell, but > change the name and they fall immediately under the spell. > > -- > Anthony > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 18 01:43:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B43816A4CE; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 01:43:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7991843D5A; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 01:43:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 7EF7E85670; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:13:05 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:13:05 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD advocacy list , NetBSD-advocacy@NetBSD.org Message-ID: <20050318014305.GP65340@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IjNIXuzrMEaOuFwn" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Subject: Any get-togethers in Europe or Asia in May? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 01:43:08 -0000 --IjNIXuzrMEaOuFwn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline As you should know, I'll be presenting a tutorial^Wworkshop at the BSDCan in May. It's in Ottawa, approximately half way round the world from here. I can fly there and back for a surprisingly high price, or I can save about a quarter of the cost by flying round the world. That *requires* me to stop over somewhere in Europe and/or Asia. So: are there any get-togethers happening in that part of the world? I need to be in Canada from 10 May to 16 May, so something just before or after would be ideal. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --IjNIXuzrMEaOuFwn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCOjIpIubykFB6QiMRAoHjAJ9Lhu1s1k7twSn+vbuQoId09eROrgCfbbxP 1D/vQZi5sia7SHWI1eiRQbw= =Yiy7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IjNIXuzrMEaOuFwn-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 18 04:21:36 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C6DB16A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 04:21:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gizmo03bw.bigpond.com (gizmo03bw.bigpond.com [144.140.70.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C954743D53 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 04:21:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from anthony@carmoda.com) Received: (qmail 30913 invoked from network); 18 Mar 2005 04:21:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO BWMAM18.bigpond.com) (144.135.24.118) by gizmo03bw.bigpond.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 2005 04:21:32 -0000 Received: from cpe-141-168-97-167.qld.bigpond.net.au ([141.168.97.167]) by BWMAM18.bigpond.com(MAM REL_3_4_2a 288/18336569) with SMTP id 18336569; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:21:32 +1000 From: "Anthony Carmody" To: "'FreeBSD Advocacy'" Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:22:51 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcUrciYHK6XMUw+KQ0KvS5zji/DCEA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-Id: <20050318042134.C954743D53@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Subject: X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 04:21:36 -0000 Regards, Anthony John Carmody Anthony Carmody Consulting Pty Ltd =================================== p: +61 (0) 414 417 457 f: +61 (07) 3371 4041 e: anthony@carmoda.com w: http://www.carmoda.com/ =============================================== * solution integration * internet security * network upgrades * server upgrades * software development * databases * unix systems * staff From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 18 07:53:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A68016A4CE; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:53:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.swisshostingservice.com (beluga.7g0.net [194.146.111.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79FCC43D2D; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:53:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@libkvm.org) Received: from [194.146.111.10] (helo=kribi.libkvm.org) by mail.swisshostingservice.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.50 (FreeBSD)) id 1DCCH7-000GqY-IZ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:52:05 +0100 Received: (from jma@localhost) by kribi.libkvm.org (8.13.0/8.13.0/Submit) id j2I7qCaR009289; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:52:12 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:52:12 +0100 From: julien mabillard To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Message-ID: <20050318075212.GD23160@kribi.libkvm.org> References: <20050318014305.GP65340@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050318014305.GP65340@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i X-Spirit: FreeBSD The Power to Serve cc: FreeBSD advocacy list cc: FreeBSD Chat cc: NetBSD-advocacy@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: Any get-togethers in Europe or Asia in May? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:53:06 -0000 There is the pkgsrc conference (www.pkgsrccon.org) that will be held in Czech Republic, May 6-8. Regards. On Fri, Mar 18, 2005 at 12:13:05PM +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey typed: :: As you should know, I'll be presenting a tutorial^Wworkshop at the :: BSDCan in May. It's in Ottawa, approximately half way round the world :: from here. I can fly there and back for a surprisingly high price, or :: I can save about a quarter of the cost by flying round the world. :: That *requires* me to stop over somewhere in Europe and/or Asia. :: :: So: are there any get-togethers happening in that part of the world? :: I need to be in Canada from 10 May to 16 May, so something just before :: or after would be ideal. :: :: Greg :: -- :: Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. :: See complete headers for address and phone numbers. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 17 20:07:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDAE116A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:07:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E4F43D46 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:07:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 136B11C000A0 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:07:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id DA9601C00095 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:07:33 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050317200733895.DA9601C00095@mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:07:33 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1432499378.20050317210733@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <2fd864e05031704593c07d6c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> <20050315101228.Q25559@knight.ixsystems.net> <793354858.20050315202057@wanadoo.fr> <42383D1F.20005@makeworld.com> <2fd864e05031704593c07d6c1@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:22:01 +0000 Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:07:36 -0000 Astrodog writes: > Have you considered, that a certification program done in an open > manner could be incredibly helpful for FreeBSD? If so, it would be a historical first. I've never seen any certification program do that for anything. > You're making some rather large assumptions, the primary one being > that the creation and design of the certification tests will be closed > and no one except the arbiters will be involved. I think it's safe to assume that the group creating and designing the tests will be far smaller than the group expected to take and pass the tests. And offhand I can't think of who would actually be objectively qualified to design the tests in the first place. > The reason certifications are required in some cases is that lets face > it, you COULD be full of shit and know nothing about whatever product > it is. Not if an employer or client investigates your claims. And if he doesn't, certification won't make any difference, anyway. I'm not even sure what you'd certify for FreeBSD ... it's practically identical to the other BSDs, which in turn are practically identical to all other forms of UNIX. Why would anyone seek out a FreeBSD or BSD certification _specifically_? > Not only does this hurt whoever hires you, but it hurts whoever > provides the product you're lying about. If people lie about experience and their clients don't check up, what would prevent them from lying about certification (which their clients wouldn't check up, either)? > As far as the last comment.... People complain about certifications? Some do. Certifications, like unions, are attempts to artificially inflate and/or support a job market through closed-shop restrictions. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 18 14:56:42 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 452F216A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:56:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4199243D39 for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:56:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 71so199281wra for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:56:40 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Lid+Uo+0pDVXvAtzeTlWumqi6tF4ErUt9WFkokgsvx8teuV4PegBbpNpGS4Kj891J+qjBgW4ExAaXlaru8+7tgfQg5SJftUVD9vhDW2gGFlKk/Ho938rx0KIn8pwl/10FQeynJ+ecLZbSgiMnJJV9bV8kUop9WXY0CPaeypa6n0= Received: by 10.54.22.15 with SMTP id 15mr1030877wrv; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:56:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:56:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e050318065670005fe4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:56:19 -0800 From: Astrodog To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1432499378.20050317210733@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> <20050315101228.Q25559@knight.ixsystems.net> <793354858.20050315202057@wanadoo.fr> <42383D1F.20005@makeworld.com> <2fd864e05031704593c07d6c1@mail.gmail.com> <1432499378.20050317210733@wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:56:42 -0000 On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:07:33 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Astrodog writes: > > > Have you considered, that a certification program done in an open > > manner could be incredibly helpful for FreeBSD? > > If so, it would be a historical first. I've never seen any > certification program do that for anything. > I'm not sure I see that as a problem, considering the group that is putting this together. > > You're making some rather large assumptions, the primary one being > > that the creation and design of the certification tests will be closed > > and no one except the arbiters will be involved. > > I think it's safe to assume that the group creating and designing the > tests will be far smaller than the group expected to take and pass the > tests. And offhand I can't think of who would actually be objectively > qualified to design the tests in the first place. > The group creating FreeBSD and deciding where it will go is significantly smaller than the userbase. As far as someone being objectively qualified.... the guy who reads your college entry essay isn't objective, your boss isn't objective, cops aren't objective, and neither are judges. You go with what you can get, while striving for objectivity, even if it isn't possible. > > The reason certifications are required in some cases is that lets face > > it, you COULD be full of shit and know nothing about whatever product > > it is. > > Not if an employer or client investigates your claims. And if he > doesn't, certification won't make any difference, anyway. > > I'm not even sure what you'd certify for FreeBSD ... it's practically > identical to the other BSDs, which in turn are practically identical to > all other forms of UNIX. Why would anyone seek out a FreeBSD or BSD > certification _specifically_? > > > Not only does this hurt whoever hires you, but it hurts whoever > > provides the product you're lying about. > > If people lie about experience and their clients don't check up, what > would prevent them from lying about certification (which their clients > wouldn't check up, either)? If I'm an employer, and I need to terminate a crap employee, and they don't list any certs, just experence, it would be quite difficult to PROVE that they didn't have experence with "Application X". However, if they claim a certification for application X, that they don't actually have, I can fire them without notice. > > > As far as the last comment.... People complain about certifications? > > Some do. Certifications, like unions, are attempts to artificially > inflate and/or support a job market through closed-shop restrictions. > One could argue that a college degree has the same effect. So would actually knowing other people. I don't see this as an issue at all. :\ > -- > Anthony > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 18 15:13:07 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B90C16A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:13:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from host1.openit.com.br (mvx-200-201-187-90.mundivox.com [200.201.187.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15ABC43D2D for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:13:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lgustavo@openit.com.br) Received: from topazio.intranet.openit.com.br ([192.168.0.7]) by host1.openit.com.br with esmtp (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1DCJ9r-000Hen-Kl for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:13:03 -0300 From: Luiz Gustavo To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <2fd864e050318065670005fe4@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> <20050315101228.Q25559@knight.ixsystems.net> <793354858.20050315202057@wanadoo.fr> <42383D1F.20005@makeworld.com> <2fd864e05031704593c07d6c1@mail.gmail.com> <1432499378.20050317210733@wanadoo.fr> <2fd864e050318065670005fe4@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1111158779.778.6.camel@topazio.intranet.openit.com.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:12:59 -0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:13:07 -0000 Since BSD Vault has ignored the press release, I submitted it there today... On Fri, 2005-03-18 at 11:56, Astrodog wrote: > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:07:33 +0100, Anthony Atkielski > wrote: > > Astrodog writes: > > > > > Have you considered, that a certification program done in an open > > > manner could be incredibly helpful for FreeBSD? > > > > If so, it would be a historical first. I've never seen any > > certification program do that for anything. > > > > I'm not sure I see that as a problem, considering the group that is > putting this together. > > > > You're making some rather large assumptions, the primary one being > > > that the creation and design of the certification tests will be closed > > > and no one except the arbiters will be involved. > > > > I think it's safe to assume that the group creating and designing the > > tests will be far smaller than the group expected to take and pass the > > tests. And offhand I can't think of who would actually be objectively > > qualified to design the tests in the first place. > > > > The group creating FreeBSD and deciding where it will go is > significantly smaller than the userbase. As far as someone being > objectively qualified.... the guy who reads your college entry essay > isn't objective, your boss isn't objective, cops aren't objective, and > neither are judges. You go with what you can get, while striving for > objectivity, even if it isn't possible. > > > > The reason certifications are required in some cases is that lets face > > > it, you COULD be full of shit and know nothing about whatever product > > > it is. > > > > Not if an employer or client investigates your claims. And if he > > doesn't, certification won't make any difference, anyway. > > > > I'm not even sure what you'd certify for FreeBSD ... it's practically > > identical to the other BSDs, which in turn are practically identical to > > all other forms of UNIX. Why would anyone seek out a FreeBSD or BSD > > certification _specifically_? > > > > > Not only does this hurt whoever hires you, but it hurts whoever > > > provides the product you're lying about. > > > > If people lie about experience and their clients don't check up, what > > would prevent them from lying about certification (which their clients > > wouldn't check up, either)? > > If I'm an employer, and I need to terminate a crap employee, and they > don't list any certs, just experence, it would be quite difficult to > PROVE that they didn't have experence with "Application X". However, > if they claim a certification for application X, that they don't > actually have, I can fire them without notice. > > > > > > As far as the last comment.... People complain about certifications? > > > > Some do. Certifications, like unions, are attempts to artificially > > inflate and/or support a job market through closed-shop restrictions. > > > > One could argue that a college degree has the same effect. So would > actually knowing other people. I don't see this as an issue at all. :\ > > > -- > > Anthony > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > !DSPAM:423aec51674781134119474! > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 18 21:35:01 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B017A16A4CF for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:35:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E145243D3F for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:35:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bsdfreak@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 1so120341rny for ; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:35:00 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=P8cKGKQGSAuWsOtU5oAKecGrY3ug+fwOXQSaCuqaL1naiuwJPJ1X2FmRUMGGuo3k0CPStoGcIBQIqyMCKLPGMNiIf/+uAuloM4Ma5oH5CMT+w39+MEEC+Lyi/gLDewkH5p++GFw5OeqMmdOolW9QIys/SimZMu85c6Ccl0vFLPM= Received: by 10.38.179.2 with SMTP id b2mr999603rnf; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:35:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.179.44 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:35:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:35:00 -0500 From: Alexander Chamandy To: Luiz Gustavo , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1111158779.778.6.camel@topazio.intranet.openit.com.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20050315104454.W574@dru.domain.org> <20050315101228.Q25559@knight.ixsystems.net> <793354858.20050315202057@wanadoo.fr> <42383D1F.20005@makeworld.com> <2fd864e05031704593c07d6c1@mail.gmail.com> <1432499378.20050317210733@wanadoo.fr> <2fd864e050318065670005fe4@mail.gmail.com> <1111158779.778.6.camel@topazio.intranet.openit.com.br> Subject: Re: BSD Certification Group press release X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Alexander Chamandy List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:35:01 -0000 I've posted it on http://www.bsdfreak.org/ some time ago On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:12:59 -0300, Luiz Gustavo wrote: > Since BSD Vault has ignored the press release, I submitted it there > today... > > > On Fri, 2005-03-18 at 11:56, Astrodog wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:07:33 +0100, Anthony Atkielski > > wrote: > > > Astrodog writes: > > > > > > > Have you considered, that a certification program done in an open > > > > manner could be incredibly helpful for FreeBSD? > > > > > > If so, it would be a historical first. I've never seen any > > > certification program do that for anything. > > > > > > > I'm not sure I see that as a problem, considering the group that is > > putting this together. > > > > > > You're making some rather large assumptions, the primary one being > > > > that the creation and design of the certification tests will be closed > > > > and no one except the arbiters will be involved. > > > > > > I think it's safe to assume that the group creating and designing the > > > tests will be far smaller than the group expected to take and pass the > > > tests. And offhand I can't think of who would actually be objectively > > > qualified to design the tests in the first place. > > > > > > > The group creating FreeBSD and deciding where it will go is > > significantly smaller than the userbase. As far as someone being > > objectively qualified.... the guy who reads your college entry essay > > isn't objective, your boss isn't objective, cops aren't objective, and > > neither are judges. You go with what you can get, while striving for > > objectivity, even if it isn't possible. > > > > > > The reason certifications are required in some cases is that lets face > > > > it, you COULD be full of shit and know nothing about whatever product > > > > it is. > > > > > > Not if an employer or client investigates your claims. And if he > > > doesn't, certification won't make any difference, anyway. > > > > > > I'm not even sure what you'd certify for FreeBSD ... it's practically > > > identical to the other BSDs, which in turn are practically identical to > > > all other forms of UNIX. Why would anyone seek out a FreeBSD or BSD > > > certification _specifically_? > > > > > > > Not only does this hurt whoever hires you, but it hurts whoever > > > > provides the product you're lying about. > > > > > > If people lie about experience and their clients don't check up, what > > > would prevent them from lying about certification (which their clients > > > wouldn't check up, either)? > > > > If I'm an employer, and I need to terminate a crap employee, and they > > don't list any certs, just experence, it would be quite difficult to > > PROVE that they didn't have experence with "Application X". However, > > if they claim a certification for application X, that they don't > > actually have, I can fire them without notice. > > > > > > > > > As far as the last comment.... People complain about certifications? > > > > > > Some do. Certifications, like unions, are attempts to artificially > > > inflate and/or support a job market through closed-shop restrictions. > > > > > > > One could argue that a college degree has the same effect. So would > > actually knowing other people. I don't see this as an issue at all. :\ > > > > > -- > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > !DSPAM:423aec51674781134119474! > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Best wishes, Alexander G. Chamandy Webmaster www.bsdfreak.org Your Source For BSD News!