From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 19 16:00:10 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3211D16A41C for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:00:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDBF43D48 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:00:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=yoda.datawok.com) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1Dk2DR-0006So-Je for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 12:00:09 -0400 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:00:55 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200506191100.55415.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc3f89790cf8388fa052f66a1ee12aa311350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 Subject: FYI: FreeBSD entry on Wikipedia X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:00:10 -0000 For those of you who haven't seen it, FreeBSD has an entry in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freebsd Best regards, Andrew Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 20 09:49:09 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCC516A41C for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:49:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fteg@london.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78CD943D1F for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:49:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fteg@london.com) Received: from unknown (unknown [192.168.9.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 3CDE118002B4 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:49:09 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (205.158.62.49) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 20 Jun 2005 09:49:09 -0000 Received: by ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 184064BEAD; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:49:09 +0000 (GMT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [213.187.181.70] by ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com with http for fteg@london.com; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 04:49:09 -0500 From: "Fafa Hafiz Krantz" To: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 04:49:09 -0500 X-Originating-Ip: 213.187.181.70 X-Originating-Server: ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20050620094909.184064BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Cc: Subject: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:49:09 -0000 Hello. I am curious why it's so difficult to get a simple and straight forward list of FreeBSD's features, that normal people can understand? I am trying to write one of the largest articles ever to be published on www.PCWorld.no -- to only say good things about FreeBSD. But I want it clear what good things to say. http://www.freebsd.org/features.html is alright, but not the best. Using super-advanced jargons, it says what they are, but not what they do. At least not in a way normal people can understand. http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/ aims more towards the general public, and does the job a little better. How ever they don't even mention half of FreeBSD's features. http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html is very, very good. I get the feeling though, that it ain't like that no more. Any idea, people? Thanks! -- Fafa Hafiz Krantz Research Designer @ http://www.bleed.no --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 20 12:37:39 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E27216A41C for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:37:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5128843D48 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:37:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 12214 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2005 12:37:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by salvador with SMTP; 20 Jun 2005 12:37:34 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.122.16]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050620123734.NXAI28012.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:37:34 +0800 Message-ID: <42B6B83B.4070004@pacific.net.sg> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:36:11 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fafa Hafiz Krantz References: <20050620094909.184064BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> In-Reply-To: <20050620094909.184064BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:37:39 -0000 Hi, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: > I am curious why it's so difficult to get a simple and straight > forward list of FreeBSD's features, that normal people can understand? > There is no real answer to this question. > I am trying to write one of the largest articles ever to be published > on www.PCWorld.no -- to only say good things about FreeBSD. But I want > it clear what good things to say. > This sounds good. How much time is left for you to write it? > http://www.freebsd.org/features.html is alright, but not the best. > Using super-advanced jargons, it says what they are, but not what they do. > At least not in a way normal people can understand. > FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people. Or, as I describe it for myself, if I would know marketing, I would not write software. > http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/ aims more towards the general > public, and does the job a little better. How ever they don't even > mention half of FreeBSD's features. > Not all applies to FreeBSD. > http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html is very, very good. > I get the feeling though, that it ain't like that no more. > It is a starting point but a bit outdated. > Any idea, people? Not really as I also do not know the current status of your article. I also have no idea what the target audience will be. Let me give you some not to technical points for a start. FreeBSD strongest and also its weakest point is that it is developed by serious people as a serious operating system who took the work of a serious university as their base. This leads easily to misunderstandings when newcommers appearing at the scene. The main advantage of FreeBSD is its stability. It just runs like a work horse. FreeBSD follows very strict principles once set. The number of exceptions to be faced during operating a FreeBSD machine are pretty much limited. All applications come via the ports tree and are delivered as source or as a binary. The user can decide on what level he/she can maintain the machine. The installation from source need compilations but it does not need any knowledge of programming. Following the same steps for all ports, is all the user has to do: cd to the directory in the ports tree make make install make clean I know some people who were to afraid to move to FreeBSD as they believed installing from source is equal to being a programmer. I hope this will start a discussion to give you the strong points of FreeBSD you need for the article. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 20 13:48:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11BB916A41C for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:48:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fteg@london.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7638A43D1D for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:48:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fteg@london.com) Received: from unknown (unknown [192.168.9.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 493101800290 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:48:41 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (205.158.62.49) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 20 Jun 2005 13:48:41 -0000 Received: by ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 30FF54BEAD; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:48:41 +0000 (GMT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [213.187.181.70] by ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com with http for fteg@london.com; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:48:40 -0500 From: "Fafa Hafiz Krantz" To: "Erich Dollansky" Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 08:48:40 -0500 X-Originating-Ip: 213.187.181.70 X-Originating-Server: ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20050620134841.30FF54BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Cc: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:48:42 -0000 > This sounds good. How much time is left for you to write it? A couple of weeks :) So I have a lot of time to do research. > FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people. Clearly its weakest point. > Or, as I describe it for myself, if I would know marketing, > I would not write software. If you knew them both, your powers wouldn't know limits. > > http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/ aims more towards the general > > public, and does the job a little better. How ever they don't even > > mention half of FreeBSD's features. > > > Not all applies to FreeBSD. Hopefully one day they will. > > http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html is very, very good. > > I get the feeling though, that it ain't like that no more. > > > It is a starting point but a bit outdated. True. I did e-mail this Murray, he told me he was working on a new one. > > Any idea, people? >=20 > Not really as I also do not know the current status of your=20 > article. I also have no idea what the target audience will be. Actually, it's not only for the article. I also want to create an introductory report where FreeBSD meets the real life, and try to present it in the same professional manner that Apple presents their Mac OS X. Maybe some can even be used as wording for FreeBSD's new website, which they desperately need. > Let me give you some not to technical points for a start. >=20 > FreeBSD strongest and also its weakest point is that it is=20 > developed by serious people as a serious operating system who took=20 > the work of a serious university as their base. >=20 > This leads easily to misunderstandings when newcommers appearing at the s= cene. >=20 > The main advantage of FreeBSD is its stability. It just runs like a=20 > work horse. >=20 > FreeBSD follows very strict principles once set. The number of=20 > exceptions to be faced during operating a FreeBSD machine are=20 > pretty much limited. >=20 > All applications come via the ports tree and are delivered as=20 > source or as a binary. The user can decide on what level he/she can=20 > maintain the machine. >=20 > The installation from source need compilations but it does not need=20 > any knowledge of programming. Following the same steps for all=20 > ports, is all the user has to do: >=20 > cd to the directory in the ports tree > make > make install > make clean >=20 > I know some people who were to afraid to move to FreeBSD as they=20 > believed installing from source is equal to being a programmer. Yeah I know a lot of people like that :) > I hope this will start a discussion to give you the strong points=20 > of FreeBSD you need for the article. Indeed, Erich. Your kind gesture and true words have been very helpful. Thank you! -- Fafa Hafiz Krantz Research Designer @ http://www.bleed.no --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 20 16:47:01 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9914B16A41C for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:47:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from avatar4d@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E0643D4C for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:47:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from avatar4d@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 36so945225wra for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:47:00 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ka9EwyaXMdTVeowmfwPWzT3k8LTL1JpiQg+5r5ijW43iA7sIhOYVRX86x4sMnHNPvXH4dXYzpIoP8dofYKKvIGVLs1mgUQGNSsXmmev98vJJKhjTrNrYlGha+wfwb/ikzB2TDz8dTYnpB/zXHeG7ulidGJU3IfutsRWPasX1oS0= Received: by 10.54.125.9 with SMTP id x9mr2586604wrc; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.43.11 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <17489c7a050620092046596fa2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:20:20 -0400 From: Chad Gross To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050620120009.8469C16A420@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050620120009.8469C16A420@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 106, Issue 1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Chad Gross List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:47:01 -0000 > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 04:49:09 -0500 > From: "Fafa Hafiz Krantz" > Subject: Explaining FreeBSD features > To: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <20050620094909.184064BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> > Content-Type: text/plain >=20 >=20 > Hello. >=20 > I am curious why it's so difficult to get a simple and straight > forward list of FreeBSD's features, that normal people can understand? >=20 > I am trying to write one of the largest articles ever to be published > on www.PCWorld.no -- to only say good things about FreeBSD. But I want > it clear what good things to say. >=20 > http://www.freebsd.org/features.html is alright, but not the best. > Using super-advanced jargons, it says what they are, but not what they do= . > At least not in a way normal people can understand. >=20 > http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/ aims more towards the general > public, and does the job a little better. How ever they don't even > mention half of FreeBSD's features. >=20 > http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html is very, very good. > I get the feeling though, that it ain't like that no more. >=20 > Any idea, people? >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > -- >=20 > Fafa Hafiz Krantz > Research Designer @ http://www.bleed.no Unless you want to get into the more technical details, I don't know what else you could be looking for Fafa. It clearly states what each feature does on http://www.freebsd.org/features.html. But this might help you: http://www.freebsdwiki.net/index.php/Main_Page Chad M. Gross From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 20 17:48:26 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F19B16A41C for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:48:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF5B43D49 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:48:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from mvwcim1a.acuson.com ([157.226.95.42]:2728 helo=mvwcim1a.ww005.siemens.net) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1DkQNk-00017m-45 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:48:24 -0700 Received: by mvwcim1a.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:48:24 -0700 Message-ID: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0851@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:48:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: RE: FreeBSD entry on Wikipedia X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:48:26 -0000 From: Andrew L. Gould [mailto:algould@datawok.com] > > For those of you who haven't seen it, FreeBSD has an entry > in Wikipedia: The Netcraft sentence is quite strange. Instead of just saying FreeBSD has the longest uptime at Netcraft, it's prefixed with "of the operating systems that accurately report uptime remotely". It's like saying "of all the people who actually ran the Boston Marathon, Joe was the fastest." Looking at the discussion and history, there's a bit of controversy over this. In my mind, if you don't compete you don't get a prize. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 20 18:23:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DF5616A427 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:23:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from mx1.mail.ru (mx1.mail.ru [194.67.23.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 301EA43D48 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:23:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from [83.172.2.49] (port=41612 helo=[83.172.2.49]) by mx1.mail.ru with esmtp id 1DkQw1-000CoX-00; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:23:50 +0400 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:20:44 +0700 From: Vadim Goncharov X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.10.01) Personal Organization: Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <95392694.20050621012044@mail.ru> To: Johnson David In-Reply-To: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0851@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0851@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re[2]: FreeBSD entry on Wikipedia X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Vadim Goncharov List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:23:51 -0000 Hello Johnson, Tuesday, June 21, 2005, 12:48:23 AM, you wrote: >> For those of you who haven't seen it, FreeBSD has an entry >> in Wikipedia: JD> The Netcraft sentence is quite strange. Instead of just saying FreeBSD has JD> the longest uptime at Netcraft, it's prefixed with "of the operating systems JD> that accurately report uptime remotely". It's like saying "of all the people JD> who actually ran the Boston Marathon, Joe was the fastest." JD> Looking at the discussion and history, there's a bit of controversy over JD> this. In my mind, if you don't compete you don't get a prize. That sentence is right. In fact, you cannot say they don't compete - from one point of view, the systems are not compete at all, as it is Netcraft's initiative, not systems. From the other point of view, they compete by other ways - http://counter.li.org/reports/uptimestats.php shows uptime of participating linux machines with special script (workaround of this remote problem), and it is more 1400 days on the first place. BTW, not all version of FreeBSD can report this properly to Netcraft, so situation is even worse. -- Best regards, Vadim Goncharov ICQ UIN 166852181 mailto:vadim_nuclight@mail.ru From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 20 19:17:14 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFED316A481 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:17:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB1E243D49 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:17:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from mvwcim1a.acuson.com ([157.226.95.42]:4659 helo=mvwcim1a.ww005.siemens.net) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1DkRlb-0004sw-47; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:17:07 -0700 Received: by mvwcim1a.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:17:07 -0700 Message-ID: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0853@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'Vadim Goncharov' Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:17:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.0: Re[2]: FreeBSD entry on Wikipedia X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:17:14 -0000 From: Vadim Goncharov [mailto:vadim_nuclight@mail.ru] > > That sentence is right. Technically, it is correct. But it may imply something that isn't correct. If you look at the discussion page, the editor who added that phrase used the analogy of FreeBSD running a children's footrace. Putting those together, there's a clear implication by that editor that FreeBSD cannot compete with "adult" systems. That's nonsense. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 20 19:29:23 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F39616A41C for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:29:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from mx1.mail.ru (mx1.mail.ru [194.67.23.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7DA43D1D for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:29:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from [83.172.2.49] (port=49782 helo=[83.172.2.49]) by mx1.mail.ru with esmtp id 1DkRxR-0007Mh-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:29:21 +0400 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:27:10 +0700 From: Vadim Goncharov X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.10.01) Personal Organization: AVTF, Tomsk Polytechnik University X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <166222081.20050621022710@tpu.ru> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0853@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0853@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 2.0: Re[2]: FreeBSD entry on Wikipedia X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Vadim Goncharov List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:29:23 -0000 Hello Johnson, Tuesday, June 21, 2005, 2:17:06 AM, you wrote: >> That sentence is right. JD> Technically, it is correct. But it may imply something that JD> isn't correct. If you look at the discussion page, the editor who JD> added that phrase used the analogy of FreeBSD running a children's JD> footrace. Putting those together, there's a clear implication by Yes, but does end user cares about that discussions? We should give strong techincal and honest arguments. This will make a better impression. JD> that editor that FreeBSD cannot compete with "adult" systems. That's JD> nonsense. Yes, with about 30 years of history FreeBSD is more "adult" than many others. -- WBR, Vadim Goncharov FidoNet 2:5005/106.426 ICQ#166852181 mailto:vadim_nuclight@mail.ru From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 20 20:40:32 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454DF16A41C; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:40:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from karelj@kayjay.nl) Received: from kayjay.xs4all.nl (kayjay.xs4all.nl [80.126.33.60]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDF443D48; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:40:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from karelj@kayjay.nl) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ibook.kayjay.xs4all.nl [192.168.0.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by kayjay.xs4all.nl (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5KKeFsg058039 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:40:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from karelj@kayjay.nl) Message-ID: <42B729AE.3010908@kayjay.nl> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:40:14 +0200 From: Karel Bosschaart User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fafa Hafiz Krantz References: <20050620134841.30FF54BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> In-Reply-To: <20050620134841.30FF54BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:40:32 -0000 Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: >>I know some people who were to afraid to move to FreeBSD as they >>believed installing from source is equal to being a programmer. > > Yeah I know a lot of people like that :) For those people, the pcbsd project www.pcbsd.org might be an option. I didn't try it myself (yet), but from their website it looks like a promising approach. Karel. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 21 00:37:13 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E281116A41C; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:37:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B3C43D4C; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:37:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [192.168.200.2] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5L0bAeh068227; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:37:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <42B76136.4090103@401.cx> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:37:10 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fafa Hafiz Krantz References: <20050620134841.30FF54BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> In-Reply-To: <20050620134841.30FF54BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:37:14 -0000 Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: *snip* >>FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people. > > > Clearly its weakest point. Once again, that depends on your audience. If you ask me, its one of FreeBSD's strongest points. Im one of those "technical people", and the main reason I like BSD is that its not "dumbed down". It does require atleast a minimal amount of clue, and it does not take for granted that the user is an idiot. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 21 00:38:55 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A30E16A41C for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:38:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bob@buckhorn.net) Received: from whitehall.lin-tech.net (whitehall.lin-tech.net [66.118.35.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D4743D48 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:38:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bob@buckhorn.net) Received: from [10.1.1.100] (unknown [64.8.96.140]) by whitehall.lin-tech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E382502E for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:38:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <42B76191.1040402@buckhorn.net> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:38:41 -0500 From: Bob Martin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041217 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0851@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> In-Reply-To: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0851@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at spamcontrol Subject: Re: FreeBSD entry on Wikipedia X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:38:55 -0000 Linux uptimes roll over at 400 days, so the comment was to off set the whining. IMHO, if they can roll out a patch to a major security flaw in a day, they should have been able to fix the uptime clock at some point in the last decade. Odd that MS can do something that Linux can't. Bob Martin Johnson David wrote: > From: Andrew L. Gould [mailto:algould@datawok.com] > >>For those of you who haven't seen it, FreeBSD has an entry >>in Wikipedia: > > > The Netcraft sentence is quite strange. Instead of just saying FreeBSD has > the longest uptime at Netcraft, it's prefixed with "of the operating systems > that accurately report uptime remotely". It's like saying "of all the people > who actually ran the Boston Marathon, Joe was the fastest." > > Looking at the discussion and history, there's a bit of controversy over > this. In my mind, if you don't compete you don't get a prize. > > David > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 21 02:03:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6845516A41C for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:03:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C76643D1D for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:03:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=yoda.datawok.com) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1DkY6P-0000SU-Rg; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:03:02 -0400 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:03:50 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20050620134841.30FF54BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> <42B76136.4090103@401.cx> In-Reply-To: <42B76136.4090103@401.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200506202103.50917.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc8a0eb67109c4fddb7acaca332199e229350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 Cc: Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:03:03 -0000 On Monday 20 June 2005 07:37 pm, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: > *snip* > > >>FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people. > > > > Clearly its weakest point. > > Once again, that depends on your audience. If you ask me, its one > of FreeBSD's strongest points. > Im one of those "technical people", and the main reason I like > BSD is that its not "dumbed down". It does require atleast a > minimal amount of clue, and it does not take for granted that the > user is an idiot. > > -- > R I am not one of the those technical people. From a non-tech's viewpoint, it is a demanding operating system; but I am a more competent and more responsible computer user for the trouble. Maybe that's a good point to explore: convenience rarely breeds responsibility. (What's the line from spiderman?..."with great power comes great responsibility"?) Put another way: The best things in life are earned. Fafa, Roger is right about analyzing/choosing your audience. If your audience would be truly interested in FreeBSD, don't underestimate them (but make sure to provide a list of references for further reading). If they need the discussion "dumbed down", your probably wasting both your time and theirs. I could be completely wrong; but that's my 2 cents. Andrew Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 21 02:41:34 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD8316A41C for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:41:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3261743D53 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:41:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 5228 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2005 02:40:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by salvador with SMTP; 21 Jun 2005 02:40:57 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.122.16]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050621024057.LJQU1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:40:57 +0800 Message-ID: <42B77DDC.6070906@pacific.net.sg> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:39:24 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fafa Hafiz Krantz References: <20050620134841.30FF54BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> In-Reply-To: <20050620134841.30FF54BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:41:35 -0000 Hi, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: >>This sounds good. How much time is left for you to write it? > > > A couple of weeks :) > > So I have a lot of time to do research. > You could subscribe to more technical lists to see how help is done and what kind of problems people face with a none-technical background. > >>FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people. > > Clearly its weakest point. > It is also its strongest point. FreeBSD has a very clear development paradigma. It is far off the chaotic system Linux has. > > Actually, it's not only for the article. > > I also want to create an introductory report where FreeBSD meets > the real life, and try to present it in the same professional > manner that Apple presents their Mac OS X. > This would be very helpful for FreeBSD. > Maybe some can even be used as wording for FreeBSD's new website, > which they desperately need. > Here we are again. But do not forget one thing. This technical way of doing things have to stay as it also presents FreeBSD's strongest point. > >>I know some people who were to afraid to move to FreeBSD as they >>believed installing from source is equal to being a programmer. > > > Yeah I know a lot of people like that :) > They would need two things: a very simple discription of doing things, without any ifs. a very clear message that it does not have to be Microsoft software. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 21 08:05:36 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB6A16A41C; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:05:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC34D43D55; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:05:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id j5L86Zb19208; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:06:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Fafa Hafiz Krantz" , , Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:05:32 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <20050620195539.1B3E54C35B@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Importance: Normal Cc: Subject: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:05:36 -0000 >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org >[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Fafa Hafiz >Krantz >Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 12:56 PM >To: questions@freebsd.org; advocacy@freebsd.org >Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features > > > >Hello. > >Thank you all for everything so far. > >But I am not looking for comparisons. > >I am looking for stuff that has been written so that people can >understand. > >Let's say this: > >Multi-threaded SMP architecture capable of executing the kernel >in parallel on multiple processors, and with kernel preemption, >allowing high priority kernel tasks to preempt other kernel >activity, reducing latency. This includes a multi-threaded >network stack and a multi-threaded virtual memory subsystem. >With FreeBSD 6.x, support for a fully parallel VFS allows the >UFS file system to run on multiple processors simultaneously, >permitting load sharing of CPU-intensive I/O optimization. > >In the real world, that ought to sound more like: > >FreeBSD includes support for symmetric multiprocessing and >multithreading. This makes the kernel lock down levels of >interfaces and buffers, minimizing the chance of threads on >different processors blocking each other, to give maximum >performance on multiprocessor systems. > Fafa, I've seen these kinds of efforts before and they are all generally doomed to failure. You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general computer operating system product. It is a very specific product in fact. Now, the USES that FreeBSD can be put to are VERY general. BUT, do NOT make the mistake of confusing the fact that just because FreeBSD can be put to general use, that somehow it is a general product. It is not. FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people: 1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, or in-house corporate projects. 2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is under the hood. By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer operating system products. They are targeted at groups #1 and #2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are: 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long as it works. This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works and how computer software that runs on it works in order to get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it works. Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the interface to their operating systems. Thus, an ignoramus can get up and running with both of these systems, and that person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough to get the job done. It may be a half-assed fix, but it is better than nothing. FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this. For starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux or Windows, so why mess with it? But, most importantly, a dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person, and over time becomes a tremendous liability. With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is old-fashioned mental elbow grease. In short, by learning a bit at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process. It is a long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you really do know everything in intimate detail. This isn't a popular thing to tell newbies. Ted >Thanks. > >-- > >Fafa Hafiz Krantz > Research Designer @ http://www.home.no/barbershop > Enlightened @ http://www.home.no/barbershop/smart/sharon.pdf > > > >-- >___________________________________________________________ >Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com >http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm > >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >To unsubscribe, send any mail to >"freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 21 17:16:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77E6116A41C for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:16:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from warren@wandrsmith.net) Received: from ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.129]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C61A43D55 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:16:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from warren@wandrsmith.net) Received: from CPE-65-28-60-94.kc.res.rr.com (CPE-65-28-60-94.kc.res.rr.com [65.28.60.94]) by ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j5LHGngu007513; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:16:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from www.wandrsmith.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by CPE-65-28-60-94.kc.res.rr.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6CF235E80; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:16:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 204.167.177.68 (SquirrelMail authenticated user warren) by www.wandrsmith.net with HTTP; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:16:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <30210.204.167.177.68.1119374209.squirrel@www.wandrsmith.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20050620195539.1B3E54C35B@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:16:49 -0500 (CDT) From: "Warren Smith" To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: warren@wandrsmith.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:16:54 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt said: > FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people: > > 1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, or > in-house corporate projects. > > 2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct > turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is > under the hood. > > By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer > operating system products. They are targeted at groups #1 and > #2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are: > > 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem > they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they > really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long > as it works. > > > This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: > > You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works > and how computer software that runs on it works in order to > get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it > works. > > Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the > interface to their operating systems. Thus, an ignoramus > can get up and running with both of these systems, and that > person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant > of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough > to get the job done. It may be a half-assed fix, but it is > better than nothing. > > FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this. For > starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to > most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux > or Windows, so why mess with it? But, most importantly, a > dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person, > and over time becomes a tremendous liability. > I agree that these 3 groups exist and that FreeBSD is probably not appropriate for those in group #3. However, I think there is another group that is not represented here. That would be those that are not in group #3 because they DO care about understanding how things work, but are also not in groups #1 or #2 because, although they may be relatively knowledgeable about computers when compared to group #3, they have never used a non-Microsoft OS. Lets call these people group #4. I think that, although Linux aspires to group #3, it is actually from group #4 which they gain most of their "converts". The efforts that Linux has made to "dumb down" their interface make it easier for those in group #4 to understand because it is closer to what they already know. I think that projects like PCBSD are also targeting group #4 by lowering the bar for entry into the "enlightened" world of BSD. Having installed PCBSD a while back, I was impressed with the easy installation. Although I, being a somewhat experienced FreeBSD user, would prefer more control over the installation process, I feel confident in recommending PCBSD to friends in group #4. This is something I had stopped doing with FreeBSD because of the hand-holding necessary just to get it installed and configured enough to be even remotely usable by someone with their experience. > With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is > old-fashioned mental elbow grease. In short, by learning a bit > at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process. It is a > long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you > really do know everything in intimate detail. > > This isn't a popular thing to tell newbies. > I agree that there is no substitute for this learning process. Perhaps the generally high level of technical knowledge of those in the FreeBSD community can be attributed more to the weeding-out process of having to break this Catch-22 than to anything else. However, I can see benefits of lowering the "cost-of-admission" a little by making the installation easier, as PCBSD has done. Making it easier for newbies to get started with this learning process will increase the number who find they have what it takes to see it through and become valuable members of the FreeBSD community. -- Warren Smith warren@wandrsmith.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 21 17:34:29 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 145BD16A41C for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:34:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC34C43D1D for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:34:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from mvwcim1a.acuson.com ([157.226.95.42]:2706 helo=mvwcim1a.ww005.siemens.net) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Dkmdn-0001uD-4i; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:34:27 -0700 Received: by mvwcim1a.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:34:27 -0700 Message-ID: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E085B@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'Ted Mittelstaedt' , advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:34:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.0: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:34:29 -0000 From: Ted Mittelstaedt [mailto:tedm@toybox.placo.com] > > You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general computer > operating system product. It is a very specific product in fact. I have to take exception to this, and your amplification of it later on. FreeBSD is a very general operating system. It may not fill the "newbie" and "casual" ecological niches, but it fills so many others that you can't consider it specific. Despite protestations to the contrary, FreeBSD does make a good desktop and workstation. It might not be suitable for a newbie's desktop, but it's been working just fine as my desktop for several years now. For a corporate office with a dedicated systems administrator, there's nothing at all stopping a successful rollout of FreeBSD on the company desktops. You are telling us not to get confused by the -use- of a system, but you're making a very similar mistake getting confused by the -users- of a system. What makes a system general or specific is its functionality and accessibility. You've split users up into two broad categories, those who are "very knowledgeable", and those who "barely know how to push a button." Are you saying that FreeBSD is unsuitable for "moderately knowledgeable" people? If so, I had better stop using it. What about people who are only "somewhat technical" but who are willing to read the documentation when they get stuck? > You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works > and how computer software that runs on it works in order to > get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it > works. I have absolutely no idea how the ULE scheduler works or what the heck a "giant lock" is that everything is trying to get out from under. Does this mean I shouldn't be using FreeBSD? David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 21 17:38:32 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6695916A41F for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:38:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from moutvdomng.kundenserver.de (moutvdom.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4A743D1D for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:38:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from [212.227.126.224] (helo=mrvdomng.kundenserver.de) by moutvdomng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1DkmhN-00013S-00; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:38:09 +0200 Received: from host217-43-38-230.range217-43.btcentralplus.com ([217.43.38.230] helo=localhost) by mrvdomng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1DkmhN-0005YM-00; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:38:09 +0200 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:38:06 +0100 From: "Liam J. Foy" To: Ted Mittelstaedt Message-ID: <20050621173806.GA667@anarion> References: <20050620195539.1B3E54C35B@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:38:32 -0000 > Fafa, I've seen these kinds of efforts before and they are all > generally doomed to failure. > > You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general computer > operating system product. It is a very specific product in fact. > > Now, the USES that FreeBSD can be put to are VERY general. BUT, > do NOT make the mistake of confusing the fact that just because > FreeBSD can be put to general use, that somehow it is a general > product. It is not. > > FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people: > > 1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, or > in-house corporate projects. > > 2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct > turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is > under the hood. > > By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer > operating system products. They are targeted at groups #1 and > #2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are: > > 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem > they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they > really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long > as it works. My 11 year old sister uses KDE and OpenOffice fine on FreeBSD. I think the problem arrives when setting these things up. Once these are setup, it's almost the same as Windows in my personal opinion. I once seen an Internet Cafe using FreeBSD on about 40+ machines with KDE. Am sure these users hardly noticed the difference. We should be promoting that what can be done on Linux(in terms of desktop usage) can be done on FreeBSD. > > > This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: > > You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works > and how computer software that runs on it works in order to > get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it > works. I disagree. By 'intimately' do you mean the internals? > > Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the > interface to their operating systems. Thus, an ignoramus > can get up and running with both of these systems, and that > person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant > of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough > to get the job done. It may be a half-assed fix, but it is > better than nothing. > > FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this. For > starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to > most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux > or Windows, so why mess with it? But, most importantly, a > dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person, > and over time becomes a tremendous liability. > > With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is > old-fashioned mental elbow grease. In short, by learning a bit > at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process. It is a > long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you > really do know everything in intimate detail. > > This isn't a popular thing to tell newbies. > > Ted > -- - Liam J. Foy liamfoy@sepulcrum.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 21 17:41:04 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57F416A41C for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:41:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from moutvdomng.kundenserver.de (moutvdom.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5815943D49 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:41:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from [212.227.126.224] (helo=mrvdomng.kundenserver.de) by moutvdomng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Dkmk7-0001He-00; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:40:59 +0200 Received: from host217-43-38-230.range217-43.btcentralplus.com ([217.43.38.230] helo=localhost) by mrvdomng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Dkmk7-0005b2-00; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:40:59 +0200 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:40:53 +0100 From: "Liam J. Foy" To: Fafa Hafiz Krantz Message-ID: <20050621174053.GB667@anarion> References: <20050620094909.184064BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050620094909.184064BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:41:04 -0000 On Mon(20)/Jun/05 - , Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: > > Hello. > > I am curious why it's so difficult to get a simple and straight > forward list of FreeBSD's features, that normal people can understand? > > I am trying to write one of the largest articles ever to be published > on www.PCWorld.no -- to only say good things about FreeBSD. But I want > it clear what good things to say. Will this large article reach a large audience? =) > > http://www.freebsd.org/features.html is alright, but not the best. > Using super-advanced jargons, it says what they are, but not what they do. > At least not in a way normal people can understand. > > http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/ aims more towards the general > public, and does the job a little better. How ever they don't even > mention half of FreeBSD's features. > > http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html is very, very good. > I get the feeling though, that it ain't like that no more. > > Any idea, people? > > Thanks! > > -- > > Fafa Hafiz Krantz > Research Designer @ http://www.bleed.no > > > -- > ___________________________________________________________ > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com > http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- - Liam J. Foy liamfoy@sepulcrum.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 21 22:17:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E1E16A41C for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:17:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9AC043D4C for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:17:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id j5LMIbb22493; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Liam J. Foy" Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:17:33 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20050621173806.GA667@anarion> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:17:45 -0000 >-----Original Message----- >From: Liam J. Foy [mailto:liamfoy@sepulcrum.org] >Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:38 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Fafa Hafiz Krantz; advocacy@freebsd.org >Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features > > >> Fafa, I've seen these kinds of efforts before and they are all >> generally doomed to failure. >> >> You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general computer >> operating system product. It is a very specific product in fact. >> >> Now, the USES that FreeBSD can be put to are VERY general. BUT, >> do NOT make the mistake of confusing the fact that just because >> FreeBSD can be put to general use, that somehow it is a general >> product. It is not. >> >> FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people: >> >> 1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, or >> in-house corporate projects. >> >> 2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct >> turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is >> under the hood. >> >> By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer >> operating system products. They are targeted at groups #1 and >> #2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are: >> >> 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem >> they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they >> really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long >> as it works. > >My 11 year old sister uses KDE and OpenOffice fine on FreeBSD. Your 11 year old sister didn't set it up. You did. YOU, not her, are the "customer" that FreeBSD is targeted at. >I think the >problem arrives when setting these things up. Once these are >setup, it's almost >the same as Windows in my personal opinion. I once seen an >Internet Cafe using >FreeBSD on about 40+ machines with KDE. Am sure these users >hardly noticed the >difference. > They did. That Internet Cafe met group #2. They constructed a turnkey system for their customers to use. >We should be promoting that what can be done on Linux(in terms >of desktop usage) >can be done on FreeBSD. > Absolutely. Just understand that the only people that this message does any good with are the more intelligent members of the computing public who are sick and tired of Windows and are ready to go to a real operating system. The average wanna-be power user does not have the patience or intelligence or whatever to read through a lot of instructions first, instead he just wants it to work like Windows - ie: stick in the install CD and be led by the hand through the setup process and end up with a cookie-cutter desktop like what everyone else has. >> >> >> This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: >> >> You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works >> and how computer software that runs on it works in order to >> get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it >> works. > >I disagree. By 'intimately' do you mean the internals? > No. I am using the word as a convenient label meaning "understanding that inside the CPU there's this thing called a processor that runs machine instruction code that is compiled from software written in a language called C, yadda yadda yadda..." In other words, you have to be the kind of person that is willing to sit down and read the instructions FIRST before plugging it in and snapping switches on. And even doing that you won't understand all the instructions until after you have turned it on and worked with it a little bit. Most consumers today (at least in the US) are used to every product they encounter, from a toaster to a car to a VCR, being built to be operated by the average 8 year old, so they are pretty lazy. Hell, a lot of products don't even come with instructions anymore since just about everyone that got the product immediately threw the instructions in the garbage. Linux today is written for these people, FreeBSD isn't. And, no amount of articles and how to guides is going to change that. Ted From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 00:58:35 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61BE716A41C for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:58:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A347343D48 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:58:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 14689 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2005 00:58:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by sarajevo with SMTP; 22 Jun 2005 00:58:30 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.122.16]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050622005830.QYQC1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:58:30 +0800 Message-ID: <42B8B749.2090500@pacific.net.sg> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:56:41 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:58:35 -0000 Hi, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >> >>Let's say this: >> >>Multi-threaded SMP architecture capable of executing the kernel >>in parallel on multiple processors, and with kernel preemption, >>allowing high priority kernel tasks to preempt other kernel >>activity, reducing latency. This includes a multi-threaded >>network stack and a multi-threaded virtual memory subsystem. >>With FreeBSD 6.x, support for a fully parallel VFS allows the >>UFS file system to run on multiple processors simultaneously, >>permitting load sharing of CPU-intensive I/O optimization. >> >>In the real world, that ought to sound more like: >> >>FreeBSD includes support for symmetric multiprocessing and >>multithreading. This makes the kernel lock down levels of >>interfaces and buffers, minimizing the chance of threads on >>different processors blocking each other, to give maximum >>performance on multiprocessor systems. >> The same old question pops up: what is the target audience. > > You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general computer > operating system product. It is a very specific product in fact. > What is then the difference to Windows in this case? > FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people: > FreeBSD is used by the two groups. But it is not said that it could not be used by the third group. > 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem > they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they > really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long > as it works. > I do not think that it the design of Windows which makes it target. It is the kind of support people with no knowledge get which makes it. > > This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: > > You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works > and how computer software that runs on it works in order to > get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it > works. > I do not think so. If people with no knowledge would get proper answers when they run into problems instead of the hint to read the manual would help a lot here. Those people will end in your group 2 which got the system setup by someone else. > Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the > interface to their operating systems. Thus, an ignoramus > can get up and running with both of these systems, and that > person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant > of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough > to get the job done. It may be a half-assed fix, but it is > better than nothing. > What is the difference to FreeBSD if the system is running once? > FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this. For > starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to > most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux > or Windows, so why mess with it? But, most importantly, a > dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person, > and over time becomes a tremendous liability. > There is no need for an interface like this if the people starting with no computer knowledge would get proper help just to get the machine up and running. > With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is > old-fashioned mental elbow grease. In short, by learning a bit > at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process. It is a > long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you > really do know everything in intimate detail. > Let it tell me this way. I have a neighbour who has a Ph.D. in biology. If she would give me the same answer when it comes to gardening, I would stop gardening as I do not want to know the background. All I want to know is how I can get rid of a special kind of pest. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 03:43:52 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B538116A41C; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 03:43:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from S2.cableone.net (smtp2.cableone.net [24.116.0.228]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5920543D53; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 03:43:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vixen42.local.lan (unverified [24.119.122.41]) by S2.cableone.net (CableOne SMTP Service S2) with ESMTP id 22718279 for multiple; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:25:54 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:45:11 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Message-ID: <20050621224511.7416ac57@vixen42.local.lan> In-Reply-To: References: <20050620195539.1B3E54C35B@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.9.11 (GTK+ 2.6.8; i386-portbld-freebsd5.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IP-stats: Incoming Last 0, First 34, in=44, out=0, spam=0 X-External-IP: 24.119.122.41 X-Abuse-Info: Send abuse complaints to abuse@cableone.net Cc: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 03:43:52 -0000 On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:05:32 -0700 "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote: > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > >[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Fafa Hafiz > >Krantz > >Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 12:56 PM > >To: questions@freebsd.org; advocacy@freebsd.org > >Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features > > > > > > > >Hello. > > > >Thank you all for everything so far. > > > >But I am not looking for comparisons. > > > >I am looking for stuff that has been written so that people can > >understand. > > > >Let's say this: > > > >Multi-threaded SMP architecture capable of executing the kernel > >in parallel on multiple processors, and with kernel preemption, > >allowing high priority kernel tasks to preempt other kernel > >activity, reducing latency. This includes a multi-threaded > >network stack and a multi-threaded virtual memory subsystem. > >With FreeBSD 6.x, support for a fully parallel VFS allows the > >UFS file system to run on multiple processors simultaneously, > >permitting load sharing of CPU-intensive I/O optimization. > > > >In the real world, that ought to sound more like: > > > >FreeBSD includes support for symmetric multiprocessing and > >multithreading. This makes the kernel lock down levels of > >interfaces and buffers, minimizing the chance of threads on > >different processors blocking each other, to give maximum > >performance on multiprocessor systems. > > > > Fafa, I've seen these kinds of efforts before and they are all > generally doomed to failure. > > You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general computer > operating system product. It is a very specific product in fact. > > Now, the USES that FreeBSD can be put to are VERY general. BUT, > do NOT make the mistake of confusing the fact that just because > FreeBSD can be put to general use, that somehow it is a general > product. It is not. > > FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people: > > 1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, or > in-house corporate projects. > > 2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct > turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is > under the hood. > > By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer > operating system products. They are targeted at groups #1 and > #2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are: > > 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem > they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they > really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long > as it works. > > > This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: > > You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works > and how computer software that runs on it works in order to > get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it > works. Nah, you can be willing to learn as well. FreeBSD was my first venture in to the world of UNIX. My choice was I found finding info on it easier than Linux and I had some one willing to teach me. > Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the > interface to their operating systems. Thus, an ignoramus > can get up and running with both of these systems, and that > person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant > of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough > to get the job done. It may be a half-assed fix, but it is > better than nothing. Not in the case of FreeBSD. In the case of FreeBSD, it would be a bad idea. It would result in a lot of badly supported users. It can be done, but with a system based on FreeBSD, with a something layed over it to help those people out. Ignorant useless users should be supported by commercial ventures, not community ones. They will just drag the community down with their weight if they don't help out. > FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this. For > starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to > most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux > or Windows, so why mess with it? But, most importantly, a > dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person, > and over time becomes a tremendous liability. > > With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is > old-fashioned mental elbow grease. In short, by learning a bit > at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process. It is a > long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you > really do know everything in intimate detail. I found the handbook to be useful in this area. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 04:38:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 869E516A41C for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 04:38:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7C72543D5C for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 04:38:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 16616 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2005 04:38:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by salvador with SMTP; 22 Jun 2005 04:38:39 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.122.16]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050622043838.XADF28012.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:38:38 +0800 Message-ID: <42B8EAE0.6050809@pacific.net.sg> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:36:48 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vulpes Velox References: <20050620195539.1B3E54C35B@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> <20050621224511.7416ac57@vixen42.local.lan> In-Reply-To: <20050621224511.7416ac57@vixen42.local.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: questions@freebsd.org, Ted Mittelstaedt , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 04:38:42 -0000 Hi, Vulpes Velox wrote: > Ignorant useless users should be supported by commercial ventures, > not community ones. They will just drag the community down with their > weight if they don't help out. > This would be the real tough one. There should also be a way to write some kind of descripton for the people between. > I found the handbook to be useful in this area. Yes, if you understand it. It is written be serious IT professionals for serious IT professionals. Even a serious none IT professional has problems understanding it. Our problem is that we all do not know the people who would speak the language none IT professionals understand. The original writer sounds like being skilled enough to have serious try on this one if he gets the information he needs for this. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 06:57:44 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 572B216A41C for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:57:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC6EB43D49 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:57:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id j5M6wWb24307; Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:58:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:57:27 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <30210.204.167.177.68.1119374209.squirrel@www.wandrsmith.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:57:44 -0000 >-----Original Message----- >From: Warren Smith [mailto:warren@wandrsmith.net] >Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:17 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Fafa Hafiz Krantz; advocacy@freebsd.org >Subject: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features > > >Ted Mittelstaedt said: >> FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people: >> >> 1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, or >> in-house corporate projects. >> >> 2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct >> turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is >> under the hood. >> >> By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer >> operating system products. They are targeted at groups #1 and >> #2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are: >> >> 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem >> they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they >> really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long >> as it works. >> >> >> This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: >> >> You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works >> and how computer software that runs on it works in order to >> get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it >> works. >> >> Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the >> interface to their operating systems. Thus, an ignoramus >> can get up and running with both of these systems, and that >> person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant >> of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough >> to get the job done. It may be a half-assed fix, but it is >> better than nothing. >> >> FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this. For >> starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to >> most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux >> or Windows, so why mess with it? But, most importantly, a >> dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person, >> and over time becomes a tremendous liability. >> > >I agree that these 3 groups exist and that FreeBSD is probably not >appropriate for those in group #3. However, I think there is another >group that is not represented here. That would be those that are not in >group #3 because they DO care about understanding how things >work, but are >also not in groups #1 or #2 because, although they may be relatively >knowledgeable about computers when compared to group #3, they have never >used a non-Microsoft OS. Lets call these people group #4. > That group isn't targeted by FreeBSD or Linux which is why I didn't include it. In fact there are several other groupings of non-Windows operating system consumers that you could make. For the sake of discussion, your group #4 is too broad. Rather, group 4 is divided into the knowledgeable non-UNIX users (4a) and the wannabe non-UNIX users (4b). >I think that, although Linux aspires to group #3, it is actually from >group #4 which they gain most of their "converts". The efforts >that Linux >has made to "dumb down" their interface make it easier for >those in group >#4 to understand because it is closer to what they already know. > The Windows users that Linux 'converts' are pretty much 4b users. These are people who consider themselves power users, and know just enough to be dissatisfied with Windows. But, they will not make the effort needed to really understand how something works. Linux allows them to use a non-Windows OS without really understanding it, which is what they want. The 4a users, by contrast, may be attracted to Linux initially due to the ease-of-entry issue your bringing up. But they try it and find out that it's dumbed-down interface gets in the way just as much as the Windows dumbed-down interface. That's where I think the majority of new FreeBSD converts come from - people that started with Windows, outgrew it, tried Linux for a while and got disgusted with the hand-holding, then went to FreeBSD and never looked back. >I think that projects like PCBSD are also targeting group #4 by lowering >the bar for entry into the "enlightened" world of BSD. Having installed >PCBSD a while back, I was impressed with the easy installation. > Although >I, being a somewhat experienced FreeBSD user, would prefer more control >over the installation process, I feel confident in recommending PCBSD to >friends in group #4. This is something I had stopped doing with FreeBSD >because of the hand-holding necessary just to get it installed and >configured enough to be even remotely usable by someone with their >experience. > The question you have to ask is: are your Group 4b friends who end up liking PCBSD eventually graduating to the full FreeBSD system? If they aren't, then PCBSD isn't meeting a goal of acting as a transition from Windows to FreeBSD. Now maybe PCBSD is going to have an independent future in it's own right, if so more power to it. But how will that help FreeBSD? > >I agree that there is no substitute for this learning process. Perhaps >the generally high level of technical knowledge of those in the FreeBSD >community can be attributed more to the weeding-out process of having to >break this Catch-22 than to anything else. > >However, I can see benefits of lowering the "cost-of-admission" a little >by making the installation easier, as PCBSD has done. Making it easier >for newbies to get started with this learning process will increase the >number who find they have what it takes to see it through and become >valuable members of the FreeBSD community. > The problem isn't 'having what it takes' Most computer users who have any sophistication 'have what it takes' The problem is WANTING to use what you have. It takes a certain kind of person to be able to look at a big mountain in front of him or her that is in between him or her and something he or she wants, and not be daunted by it, and to just do it. The majority of people are inherently lazy, and partway up that mountain will start making compromises and end up never climbing it. They have the ability to climb it, but their own laziness hamstrings their ability. Remember Aesop's fable about the Fox and the Grapes. Most people on the mountain when their own laziness gets in the way of what they want, will start spurning the goal. That is why there's so much hostility in some of the Linux community against BSD. They of course claim it's because BSD ignores GPL as much as possible, but secretly it's because they know they are too lazy to put the effort into becoming well versed in BSD, and FreeBSD's existence is a constant reminder of this. Ted From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 07:26:27 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479A216A41C; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:26:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D61A443D1F; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:26:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id j5M7Q8b24434; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:26:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Erich Dollansky" Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:25:03 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <42B8B749.2090500@pacific.net.sg> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Cc: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:26:27 -0000 >-----Original Message----- >From: Erich Dollansky [mailto:oceanare@pacific.net.sg] >Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 5:57 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Fafa Hafiz Krantz; questions@freebsd.org; advocacy@freebsd.org >Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features > > >I do not think that it the design of Windows which makes it target. It >is the kind of support people with no knowledge get which makes it. People pay for Windows, not for FreeBSD. The support structures are totally different because of this. If support is what hinges on getting the "no knowledge" people on board, then you may as well give up now because your never going to be able to fund the kind of support structure Windows has from FreeBSD. >> >> This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: >> >> You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works >> and how computer software that runs on it works in order to >> get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it >> works. >> >I do not think so. > >If people with no knowledge would get proper answers when they run into >problems instead of the hint to read the manual would help a lot here. > Why should they? If they were paying someone for FreeBSD support that is one thing. Nobody is getting paid to answer questions on the mailing list and on Usenet, if a no-knowledge person asks a question that is answered in the manual, then it is going overboard already, to even tell them to RTFM. They really shouldn't be asking questions if they haven't RTFMed. >> >What is the difference to FreeBSD if the system is running once? > Bringing a large number of ignoramuses on board who are dedicated to continuing to be ignoramuses, does not help the FreeBSD project at all. It may help some people making money off servicing those people, but otherwise they are deadweight. You know, even raw newbies who have RTFM can help the FreeBSD project by answering posts on the support forums with pointers to the manual!! >There is no need for an interface like this if the people starting with >no computer knowledge would get proper help just to get the machine up >and running. > Proper help is in the manual, it is in my book, and in Greg Lehey's book, and in several other books written by a number of people. My book is in the local public library, check it out! So, I believe, is Greg's. The official manual is online. There are hundreds of web pages that people have setup regarding FreeBSD installation that come up with Google. I am sorry you are going to have to do better than that. The proper help is out there, you just have to spend a little effort looking for it. >Let it tell me this way. I have a neighbour who has a Ph.D. in biology. >If she would give me the same answer when it comes to >gardening, I would >stop gardening as I do not want to know the background. All I want to >know is how I can get rid of a special kind of pest. > I can only ask why do you bother to garden in the first place? Without that background, you don't know why the pesticide that she recommends works. And next season if it doesen't work, you don't know why either. It's like the saying "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" You just want the fish - I want to feed myself for the rest of my life. Sadly, your attitude is one of the reasons that the United States is being run into the ground by a bunch of religious conservatives these days. Those people are just like you - they don't want to know anything about Stem Cell research, they just want to be told whether it's bad or not. Honestly, before you knock it, you should try to understand how the world works sometime. It's really a better way to live. Do you really want to die like your distant ancestors did - not knowing why the rain falls, or the wind blows, or the sun and moon rise and set? Should the human species strive for an advanced technological society where all the members have absolutely no clue as to how anything they use in their daily life even works? Are we to become a society of infants, with the machines taking care of us because we do not understand how they operate? Ted From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 07:34:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F35A116A41C; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:34:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8785243D55; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:34:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id j5M7Zqb24472; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:35:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Erich Dollansky" , "Vulpes Velox" Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:34:47 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <42B8EAE0.6050809@pacific.net.sg> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Cc: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:34:57 -0000 >-----Original Message----- >From: Erich Dollansky [mailto:oceanare@pacific.net.sg] >Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 9:37 PM >To: Vulpes Velox >Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; questions@freebsd.org; advocacy@freebsd.org >Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features > > >Hi, > >Vulpes Velox wrote: > >> Ignorant useless users should be supported by commercial ventures, >> not community ones. They will just drag the community down with their >> weight if they don't help out. >> >This would be the real tough one. > >There should also be a way to write some kind of descripton for the >people between. > >> I found the handbook to be useful in this area. > >Yes, if you understand it. It is written be serious IT >professionals for >serious IT professionals. Even a serious none IT professional has >problems understanding it. > Then read one of the many FreeBSD books. The one by Annelise Anderson is most certainly not written for serious IT professionals. I know because I have read it. >Our problem is that we all do not know the people who would speak the >language none IT professionals understand. > No, your problem is that you are confusing TRAINING with INSTRUCTION. The FreeBSD project has an obligation to provide instructions with the system. That, they do. But they do not have an obligation to provide training, nor does any company for their product. Even Microsoft charges extra for that. Ted From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 16:09:13 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9E3D16A41C for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:09:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from warren@wandrsmith.net) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7322A43D48 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:09:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from warren@wandrsmith.net) Received: from CPE-65-28-60-94.kc.res.rr.com (CPE-65-28-60-94.kc.res.rr.com [65.28.60.94]) by ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j5MG97Z7015637; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:09:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from www.wandrsmith.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by CPE-65-28-60-94.kc.res.rr.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B74A5E80; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:09:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 204.167.177.68 (SquirrelMail authenticated user warren) by www.wandrsmith.net with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:09:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <30071.204.167.177.68.1119456547.squirrel@www.wandrsmith.net> In-Reply-To: References: <30210.204.167.177.68.1119374209.squirrel@www.wandrsmith.net> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:09:07 -0500 (CDT) From: "Warren Smith" To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: warren@wandrsmith.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:09:13 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt said: >>I agree that these 3 groups exist and that FreeBSD is probably not >>appropriate for those in group #3. However, I think there is another >>group that is not represented here. That would be those that are not in >>group #3 because they DO care about understanding how things >>work, but are >>also not in groups #1 or #2 because, although they may be relatively >>knowledgeable about computers when compared to group #3, they have never >>used a non-Microsoft OS. Lets call these people group #4. >> > > That group isn't targeted by FreeBSD or Linux which is why I didn't > include it. In fact there are several other groupings of non-Windows > operating system consumers that you could make. > I agree that FreeBSD and Linux do not specifically target group #4. FreeBSD does not for the same reasons it doesn't target group #3. I'm not sure why Linux does not. Perhaps it is the whole competition-with-Microsoft mindset that drives them to target the group that is Microsoft's bread-and-butter. > For the sake of discussion, your group #4 is too broad. Rather, group 4 > is divided into the knowledgeable non-UNIX users (4a) and the wannabe > non-UNIX > users (4b). > I agree that my group #4 was too broad. I was hoping that someone would want to discuss this further. > The Windows users that Linux 'converts' are pretty much 4b users. These > are people who consider themselves power users, and know just enough > to be dissatisfied with Windows. But, they will not make the effort > needed > to really understand how something works. Linux allows them to use a > non-Windows OS without really understanding it, which is what they want. > I agree. > The 4a users, by contrast, may be attracted to Linux initially due to the > ease-of-entry issue your bringing up. But they try it and find out that > it's > dumbed-down interface gets in the way just as much as the Windows > dumbed-down > interface. That's where I think the majority of new FreeBSD converts > come from > - people that started with Windows, outgrew it, tried Linux for a while > and > got disgusted with the hand-holding, then went to FreeBSD and never > looked back. > I think you're probably right. This pretty much describes how I came to FreeBSD. I just wonder if there is some way to shorten the trip and take Linux completely out of the loop. Looking back, I wish I had known about FreeBSD sooner. It would have saved me quite a bit of frustration. I think FreeBSD would have been a much better platform for me to learn UNIX on because I wouldn't have had to endure a paradigm shift in order to continue the learning process. However, I suppose that having used Linux made me appreciate the fundamental quality of FreeBSD more than I may have otherwise. >>I think that projects like PCBSD are also targeting group #4 by lowering >>the bar for entry into the "enlightened" world of BSD. Having installed >>PCBSD a while back, I was impressed with the easy installation. >> Although >>I, being a somewhat experienced FreeBSD user, would prefer more control >>over the installation process, I feel confident in recommending PCBSD to >>friends in group #4. This is something I had stopped doing with FreeBSD >>because of the hand-holding necessary just to get it installed and >>configured enough to be even remotely usable by someone with their >>experience. >> > > The question you have to ask is: are your Group 4b friends who end up > liking PCBSD eventually graduating to the full FreeBSD system? If they > aren't, then PCBSD isn't meeting a goal of acting as a transition from > Windows to FreeBSD. > I guess it remains to be seen as to which group those friends will fall into. I have only recently started recommending PCBSD. If they turn out to be in group 4a, then they will already be somewhat familiar with FreeBSD and I will be happy to help them move into group #1. If they turn out to be in group 4b, then I have made a mistake and created another headache for myself. > Now maybe PCBSD is going to have an independent future in it's own right, > if so more power to it. But how will that help FreeBSD? > Since PCBSD really IS FreeBSD once you get it installed, if PCBSD attracts a bunch of 4a users, it could help FreeBSD by strengthening the community with valuable new members. If, however, it attracts a bunch of 4b users, it could hurt FreeBSD by weakening the community with a bunch of dead weight. Wether risking the latter is worth the former is something that I'm not sure about. > The problem isn't 'having what it takes' Most computer users who have > any > sophistication 'have what it takes' The problem is WANTING to use what > you > have. > I agree. I was including the desire to use what you have as part of what you have. > It takes a certain kind of person to be able to look at a big mountain in > front of him or her that is in between him or her and something he or she > wants, > and not be daunted by it, and to just do it. The majority of people are > inherently lazy, and partway up that mountain will start making > compromises > and end up never climbing it. They have the ability to climb it, but > their > own laziness hamstrings their ability. > You make a good point here. I suppose this is what separates the 4a and 4b groups. > Remember Aesop's fable about the Fox and the Grapes. Most people on the > mountain when their own laziness gets in the way of what they want, will > start spurning the goal. That is why there's so much hostility in some > of > the Linux community against BSD. They of course claim it's because BSD > ignores GPL as much as possible, but secretly it's because they know they > are too lazy to put the effort into becoming well versed in BSD, and > FreeBSD's > existence is a constant reminder of this. > Interesting analysis. I have noticed some irrationality to many of the arguments made against BSD by the Linux community. I suppose you could have something here. -- Warren Smith warren@wandrsmith.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 16:50:28 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89CBB16A41C; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:50:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from S4.cableone.net (smtp4.cableone.net [24.116.0.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E7F43D49; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:50:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vixen42.local.lan (unverified [24.119.122.41]) by S4.cableone.net (CableOne SMTP Service S4) with ESMTP id 23529881 for multiple; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:14:36 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:51:54 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Erich Dollansky Message-ID: <20050622115154.25e1ffbe@vixen42.local.lan> In-Reply-To: <42B8EAE0.6050809@pacific.net.sg> References: <20050620195539.1B3E54C35B@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> <20050621224511.7416ac57@vixen42.local.lan> <42B8EAE0.6050809@pacific.net.sg> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.9.11 (GTK+ 2.6.8; i386-portbld-freebsd5.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IP-stats: Incoming Last 1, First 33, in=61, out=0, spam=0 X-External-IP: 24.119.122.41 X-Abuse-Info: Send abuse complaints to abuse@cableone.net Cc: questions@freebsd.org, Ted Mittelstaedt , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:50:28 -0000 On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:36:48 +0800 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > Vulpes Velox wrote: > > > Ignorant useless users should be supported by commercial ventures, > > not community ones. They will just drag the community down with > > their weight if they don't help out. > > > This would be the real tough one. > > There should also be a way to write some kind of descripton for the > people between. > > > I found the handbook to be useful in this area. > > Yes, if you understand it. It is written be serious IT > professionals for serious IT professionals. Even a serious none IT > professional has problems understanding it. > > Our problem is that we all do not know the people who would speak > the language none IT professionals understand. > > The original writer sounds like being skilled enough to have > serious try on this one if he gets the information he needs for > this. I also had too read up on various unix tutorials as well. I feel the handbook could be made clearer in some areas, but I believe it is good in general. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 17:04:27 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F05C16A41C for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:04:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC69D43D55 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:04:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from mvwcim1a.acuson.com ([157.226.95.42]:2529 helo=mvwcim1a.ww005.siemens.net) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Dl8eE-0004fZ-4C; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:04:22 -0700 Received: by mvwcim1a.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:04:10 -0700 Message-ID: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E085E@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'Ted Mittelstaedt' Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:04:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.2: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:04:27 -0000 From: Ted Mittelstaedt [mailto:tedm@toybox.placo.com] > Now maybe PCBSD is going to have an independent future in it's own > right, if so more power to it. But how will that help FreeBSD? It can help FreeBSD by providing features and functionality that FreeBSD can use. It's in the unique position of having several developers focus on ease of use issues, something that is apparently taboo within FreeBSD itself. How can it help FreeBSD? It can provide us a new easier to use installer for one thing! David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 17:04:43 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ECD316A41C for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:04:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5EF43D55 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:04:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [192.168.200.2] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5MH4bU5020708; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:04:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <42B99A24.6090008@401.cx> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:04:36 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew L. Gould" References: <20050620134841.30FF54BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> <42B76136.4090103@401.cx> <200506202103.50917.algould@datawok.com> In-Reply-To: <200506202103.50917.algould@datawok.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:04:43 -0000 Andrew L. Gould wrote: > On Monday 20 June 2005 07:37 pm, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >>Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: >>*snip* >> >> >>>>FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people. >>> >>>Clearly its weakest point. >> >>Once again, that depends on your audience. If you ask me, its one >>of FreeBSD's strongest points. >>Im one of those "technical people", and the main reason I like >>BSD is that its not "dumbed down". It does require atleast a >>minimal amount of clue, and it does not take for granted that the >>user is an idiot. >> >>-- >>R > > > I am not one of the those technical people. From a non-tech's > viewpoint, it is a demanding operating system; but I am a more > competent and more responsible computer user for the trouble. Maybe > that's a good point to explore: convenience rarely breeds > responsibility. (What's the line from spiderman?..."with great power > comes great responsibility"?) Put another way: The best things in > life are earned. > > Fafa, Roger is right about analyzing/choosing your audience. If your > audience would be truly interested in FreeBSD, don't underestimate them > (but make sure to provide a list of references for further reading). > If they need the discussion "dumbed down", your probably wasting both > your time and theirs. > > I could be completely wrong; but that's my 2 cents. > > Andrew Gould If they need the discussion "dumbed down", then FreeBSD is probably not for them. Im not saying FreeBSD should *try* to make things harder, but it most certainly should not try to simplify things to the extreme. There are enough os's doing that already. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 17:14:13 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6774616A41C for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:14:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A3243D1F for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:14:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from mvwcim1a.acuson.com ([157.226.95.42]:4125 helo=mvwcim1a.ww005.siemens.net) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Dl8ni-00053J-63; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:14:10 -0700 Received: by mvwcim1a.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:14:10 -0700 Message-ID: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E085F@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'Ted Mittelstaedt' Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:14:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.9: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:14:13 -0000 From: Ted Mittelstaedt [mailto:tedm@toybox.placo.com] > > Sadly, your attitude is one of the reasons that the United States is > being > run into the ground by a bunch of religious conservatives these days. > Those > people are just like you - they don't want to know anything about Stem > Cell > research, they just want to be told whether it's bad or not. I begin to see that your issue isn't newbies, or Windows, or Linux, or TFM, or even gardening. You have deeper issues and you're just taking your frustration out on us. Keep the politics off the lists! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 19:14:55 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1395316A41C for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:14:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972AB43D49 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:14:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A5712.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.87.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5MJEo8o025710 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:14:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5MJEnFL004096 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:14:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost.jhs.private [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5MJEnHf039939 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:14:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200506221914.j5MJEnHf039939@fire.jhs.private> to: advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message from Vulpes Velox of "Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:51:54 CDT." <20050622115154.25e1ffbe@vixen42.local.lan> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:14:49 +0200 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: Subject: Use send-pr. Use chat@. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:14:55 -0000 > I feel the handbook could be made clearer in some areas, but I > believe it is good in general. ( This Not directed at sender above, so sender's name omitted, but the above is a mild example of much worse noise from other hollow vessels on this list. If it doesn't help practical advocacy, a posting belongs to freebsd-chat@freebsd.org , not advocacy@ , please more subscribe chat@ ) Before posting to advocacy@ eg: "I think ... FreeBSD should .... blah, wheeze, drone ...." Ask yourself: "When Did I Last Contribute Anything To FreeBSD ?" Please DO improve doc/ src/ ports/ www/ ... create an improved version of the original master & then use diff & send-pr. Non programmers contribute patches for doc/ & www/ Consider the gnats receipt from send-pr your licence to post advocacy@ (I sent a send-pr (re. man cvs yesterday), so I'm `paid up' for this one :-) Go for it, send one ! man send-pr ; send-pr - Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 20:03:24 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C4A16A41C for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:03:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from andy@glbx.net) Received: from mx1.out.mail.glbx.net (mx1.out.mail.glbx.net [80.76.201.105]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E7F543D48 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:03:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from andy@glbx.net) Received: from hydrogen.glbx.net ([80.76.194.12] helo=[172.16.0.12]) by mx1.mail.glbx.net with esmtpsa (Exim 4.51; TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) id 1DlBRS-0004or-4l for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:03:22 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) In-Reply-To: <42B76191.1040402@buckhorn.net> References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0851@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> <42B76191.1040402@buckhorn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4E4F19D4-F10F-4F15-AF9D-B1FCCEB6FFF9@glbx.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Andy Gilligan Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:03:20 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) X-Whitelist: Trusted Host (80.76.194.12) Subject: Re: FreeBSD entry on Wikipedia X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:03:24 -0000 On 21 Jun 2005, at 01:38, Bob Martin wrote: > IMHO, if they can roll out a patch to a major security flaw in a > day, they should have been able to fix the uptime clock at some > point in the last decade. Odd that MS can do something that Linux > can't. This was fixed about 3 years ago. -Andy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 20:13:44 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A210C16A41C for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:13:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from mx6.mail.ru (mx6.mail.ru [194.67.23.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E52643D4C for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:13:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from [83.172.3.194] (port=54503 helo=[83.172.3.194]) by mx6.mail.ru with esmtp id 1DlBbS-0008AB-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:13:43 +0400 Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 03:11:10 +0700 From: Vadim Goncharov X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.10.01) Personal Organization: Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1148288725.20050623031110@mail.ru> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4E4F19D4-F10F-4F15-AF9D-B1FCCEB6FFF9@glbx.net> References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0851@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> <42B76191.1040402@buckhorn.net> <4E4F19D4-F10F-4F15-AF9D-B1FCCEB6FFF9@glbx.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re[2]: FreeBSD entry on Wikipedia X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Vadim Goncharov List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:13:44 -0000 Hello Andy, Thursday, June 23, 2005, 3:03:20 AM, you wrote: AG> On 21 Jun 2005, at 01:38, Bob Martin wrote: >> IMHO, if they can roll out a patch to a major security flaw in a >> day, they should have been able to fix the uptime clock at some >> point in the last decade. Odd that MS can do something that Linux >> can't. AG> This was fixed about 3 years ago. Sure? So why Netcraft states about it aven nowadays? Even more, it says that some versions of FreeBSD (newer, as I understood) also wrap that uptime counter? -- Best regards, Vadim Goncharov ICQ UIN 166852181 mailto:vadim_nuclight@mail.ru From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 21:24:40 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A3516A41C for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:24:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from andy@glbx.net) Received: from mx1.out.mail.glbx.net (mx1.out.mail.glbx.net [80.76.201.105]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B46E43D1F for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:24:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from andy@glbx.net) Received: from hydrogen.glbx.net ([80.76.194.12] helo=[172.16.0.12]) by mx1.mail.glbx.net with esmtpsa (Exim 4.51; TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) id 1DlCi6-0001Xr-5Z for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:24:38 +0100 In-Reply-To: <1148288725.20050623031110@mail.ru> References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0851@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> <42B76191.1040402@buckhorn.net> <4E4F19D4-F10F-4F15-AF9D-B1FCCEB6FFF9@glbx.net> <1148288725.20050623031110@mail.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1BE4083B-4E39-446C-AAB8-8787DA10D136@glbx.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Andy Gilligan Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:24:36 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Subject: Re: FreeBSD entry on Wikipedia X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:24:40 -0000 On 22 Jun 2005, at 21:11, Vadim Goncharov wrote: > AG> On 21 Jun 2005, at 01:38, Bob Martin wrote: >>> IMHO, if they can roll out a patch to a major security flaw in a >>> day, they should have been able to fix the uptime clock at some >>> point in the last decade. Odd that MS can do something that Linux >>> can't. >>> > AG> This was fixed about 3 years ago. > > Sure? So why Netcraft states about it aven nowadays? Even more, it > says > that some versions of FreeBSD (newer, as I understood) also wrap that > uptime counter? Linux used to wrap at 497 days, but there were a few changes in 2.5.x to change the counters to 64-bit. -- In theory 2.6.x should be fine. I'm not 100% sure when or if this was backported to a 2.4 kernel release, but the patches have been around since early 2002. (around 2.4.19) -- http://lwn.net/2002/0307/a/uptime.php3 As for why Netcraft is reporting it... I guess it's probably safe enough to say that "most" linux machines will wrap at 497 days, as not everyone patches or upgrades their kernel. On a more personal note, I don't believe having a long uptime is always a good thing... If there are indeed Linux machines with uptimes of over 1000 days, they are no doubt full of security holes, but this applies equally to any OS. And yes, nearly all my machines are FreeBSD, before anyone asks ;) Best regards, -Andy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 22 22:22:59 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C74D16A41C for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:22:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from mx3.mail.ru (mx3.mail.ru [194.67.23.149]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E697743D49 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:22:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vadim_nuclight@mail.ru) Received: from [83.172.3.194] (port=25328 helo=[83.172.3.194]) by mx3.mail.ru with esmtp id 1DlDcX-000PfZ-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:22:57 +0400 Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:20:48 +0700 From: Vadim Goncharov X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.10.01) Personal Organization: Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <553024286.20050623052048@mail.ru> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1BE4083B-4E39-446C-AAB8-8787DA10D136@glbx.net> References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0851@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> <42B76191.1040402@buckhorn.net> <4E4F19D4-F10F-4F15-AF9D-B1FCCEB6FFF9@glbx.net> <1148288725.20050623031110@mail.ru> <1BE4083B-4E39-446C-AAB8-8787DA10D136@glbx.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re[2]: FreeBSD entry on Wikipedia X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Vadim Goncharov List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:22:59 -0000 Hello Andy, Thursday, June 23, 2005, 4:24:36 AM, you wrote: >>>> IMHO, if they can roll out a patch to a major security flaw in a >>>> day, they should have been able to fix the uptime clock at some >>>> point in the last decade. Odd that MS can do something that Linux >>>> can't. >> AG> This was fixed about 3 years ago. >> Sure? So why Netcraft states about it aven nowadays? Even more, it >> says >> that some versions of FreeBSD (newer, as I understood) also wrap that >> uptime counter? AG> Linux used to wrap at 497 days, but there were a few changes in 2.5.x to AG> change the counters to 64-bit. -- In theory 2.6.x should be fine. AG> I'm not 100% sure when or if this was backported to a 2.4 kernel AG> release, AG> but the patches have been around since early 2002. (around 2.4.19) AG> -- http://lwn.net/2002/0307/a/uptime.php3 AG> As for why Netcraft is reporting it... I guess it's probably safe enough AG> to say that "most" linux machines will wrap at 497 days, as not everyone AG> patches or upgrades their kernel. I've not understood. AFAIR, Netcraft says that it was broken somewhere in 2.5, and it began to wrap again. Moreover, it would be great if you could tell method how Netcraft is determining uptime remotely - they changed counters to 64bit, and what?.. Where it is in TCP/IP stack? And where that stuff in FreeBSD ? AG> On a more personal note, I don't believe having a long uptime is always AG> a good thing... Certainly, not always, but mostly. Although it's main function - to make impression. Top 50 is very impressive about BSD, isn't it? :) AG> If there are indeed Linux machines with uptimes of over AG> 1000 days, they are no doubt full of security holes, but this applies AG> equally to any OS. Not equally. Are the BSD machines in Top 50 really vulnerable to remote code execution attacks?.. AG> And yes, nearly all my machines are FreeBSD, before anyone asks ;) :) -- Best regards, Vadim Goncharov ICQ UIN 166852181 mailto:vadim_nuclight@mail.ru From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 01:09:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F1A16A41C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:09:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from rosebud.otenet.gr (rosebud.otenet.gr [195.170.0.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 647EA43D1D for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:09:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b239.otenet.gr [212.205.244.247]) by rosebud.otenet.gr (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-1) with ESMTP id j5N19k7X007512; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:09:51 +0300 Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j5N19bbb001936; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:09:37 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id j5N19VAJ001935; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:09:31 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:09:31 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Warren Smith Message-ID: <20050623010931.GA1844@gothmog.gr> References: <30210.204.167.177.68.1119374209.squirrel@www.wandrsmith.net> <30071.204.167.177.68.1119456547.squirrel@www.wandrsmith.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <30071.204.167.177.68.1119456547.squirrel@www.wandrsmith.net> Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org, Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:09:58 -0000 On 2005-06-22 11:09, Warren Smith wrote: >Ted Mittelstaedt said: >> The 4a users, by contrast, may be attracted to Linux initially due >> to the ease-of-entry issue your bringing up. But they try it and >> find out that it's dumbed-down interface gets in the way just as >> much as the Windows dumbed-down interface. That's where I think the >> majority of new FreeBSD converts come from - people that started >> with Windows, outgrew it, tried Linux for a while and got disgusted >> with the hand-holding, then went to FreeBSD and never looked back. > > I think you're probably right. This pretty much describes how I came to > FreeBSD. I just wonder if there is some way to shorten the trip and take > Linux completely out of the loop. Looking back, I wish I had known about > FreeBSD sooner. It would have saved me quite a bit of frustration. I > think FreeBSD would have been a much better platform for me to learn UNIX > on because I wouldn't have had to endure a paradigm shift in order to > continue the learning process. However, I suppose that having used Linux > made me appreciate the fundamental quality of FreeBSD more than I may have > otherwise. Hehehe. Me too These days, I don't use Linux if I have a choise, but I do appreciate the time spent learning the ropes of a UNIX-like system with early Slackware versions. - Giorgos (Who was converted to FreeBSD after several years of Linux, and that by sheer accident, when he tried to install OpenBSD and utterly trashed his partition table, losing all traces of Linux *AND* that other OS, in a [now] fondly remembered evening.) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 03:35:46 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F3316A41C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 03:35:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 032B843D1F for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 03:35:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 7383 invoked from network); 23 Jun 2005 03:35:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by salvador with SMTP; 23 Jun 2005 03:35:43 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.122.16]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050623033543.CIHE28012.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:35:43 +0800 Message-ID: <42BA2E0D.2090001@pacific.net.sg> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:35:41 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 03:35:46 -0000 Hi, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >>I do not think that it the design of Windows which makes it target. It >>is the kind of support people with no knowledge get which makes it. > > > People pay for Windows, not for FreeBSD. The support structures are > totally different because of this. If support is what hinges on getting I am not talking of the support people get by paying for it. Just go to any support forum, mailing list or what ever name it has and compare the tone used there. The support is done by volunteers just like here. While people asking 'dumb' questions around FreeBSD just get a RTFM while the same question around Windows might gives them a lot of verbal abuse plus the answer. If a person wastes its time to write 'RTFM', the same person could also write 'RTFM at page xx' and the answer is useful. >>If people with no knowledge would get proper answers when they run into >>problems instead of the hint to read the manual would help a lot here. >> > > > Why should they? If they were paying someone for FreeBSD support that > is one thing. Nobody is getting paid to answer questions on the mailing > list and on Usenet, if a no-knowledge person asks a question that is > answered in the manual, then it is going overboard already, to even > tell them to RTFM. They really shouldn't be asking questions if they > haven't RTFMed. > Why do I hear people crying about the acceptance of FreeBSD in this list? It is the atidute shown above which stops people jumping onto FreeBSD. > >>What is the difference to FreeBSD if the system is running once? >> > Bringing a large number of ignoramuses on board who are dedicated to > continuing to be ignoramuses, does not help the FreeBSD project at > all. It may help some people making money off servicing those people, > but otherwise they are deadweight. > Then, never complain that FreeBSD does not reach a higher market share. > You know, even raw newbies who have RTFM can help the FreeBSD project > by answering posts on the support forums with pointers to the manual!! > Yes, just let them do so. But it happens to rearely. > > Proper help is in the manual, it is in my book, and in Greg Lehey's book, > and in several other books written by a number of people. My book is I have to take my neighbour with her Ph.D. in biology again. We can assume she has proven not to be a plain idiot. She got some of the book, looked at them for some days and said 'why should I study IT before I can use FreeBSD'. > I am sorry you are going to have to do better than that. The proper > help is out there, you just have to spend a little effort looking for it. > It is out there but written in a language a none IT person has problems with. The starter of this thread is trying to do something into this direction. > > I can only ask why do you bother to garden in the first place? Without > that background, you don't know why the pesticide that she recommends > works. And next season if it doesen't work, you don't know why either. > I hope you never fall sick or have to undergo a serious surgery. As long as you do not understand how the whole procedure works, the doctor will not be able to treat you. > It's like the saying "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach > him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" You just want the fish - I > want to feed myself for the rest of my life. > No, I want to make him able to catch the fish without knowledge of breeding. > Sadly, your attitude is one of the reasons that the United States is > being > run into the ground by a bunch of religious conservatives these days. > Those > people are just like you - they don't want to know anything about Stem > Cell > research, they just want to be told whether it's bad or not. > > Honestly, before you knock it, you should try to understand how the world > works sometime. It's really a better way to live. Do you really want to Let me put it this way. A long time ago, we call it now stone age, the people started to realise that a group of people shows better results if they specialise. The people better in hunting went hunting, the people better in 'farming'. Despite one group did not know how the other group got their kind of food, they shared it. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 04:33:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46D8B16A41C; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:33:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0121D43D48; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:33:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=yoda.datawok.com) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1DlJPX-0001SO-Jx; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:33:55 -0400 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:34:46 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <42BA2E0D.2090001@pacific.net.sg> In-Reply-To: <42BA2E0D.2090001@pacific.net.sg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200506222334.46444.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc23d31dff1eeaa88193dcbfdc3e987a89350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 Cc: questions@freebsd.org, Ted Mittelstaedt , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:33:57 -0000 On Wednesday 22 June 2005 10:35 pm, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, /--big snip--/ > > Let me put it this way. A long time ago, we call it now stone age, > the people started to realise that a group of people shows better > results if they specialise. The people better in hunting went > hunting, the people better in 'farming'. Despite one group did not > know how the other group got their kind of food, they shared it. > > Erich That's a great analogy; but I disagree with the way you've applied it. Yes, the hunters and farmers shared the food. That's not to say that the farmers wanted to use the bows and arrows, or that the hunters wanted to use a harvesting tool. If a farmer chose to use a bow and arrow, he/she would be irresponsible not to take a safety lesson (RTFM). Users taste the fruit of FreeBSD whenever they use a service hosted on a FreeBSD server. Most Windows users don't care how they got the fruit. That's okay. FreeBSD users are currently "specialized" in their interest in computer technology when compared to the average Windows user. That's okay too. Specialized tools serve are used by specialized individuals; although all may benefit indirectly. I support better documentation. I don't think there's any argument there. The idea that FreeBSD should be usable for all levels of computer users, however, is like putting training wheels on a racing bicycle. Any time you modify a professional tool to make it accessible to all, the tool loses some level of efficiency or power. In the case of FreeBSD, it would also absorb valuable development resources. All of this reminds me of a book I saw at Barnes & Noble last year: "Bioinfomatics for Dummies". Think about it: does anyone on this list want a dummy messing with genetics? Andrew Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 06:05:20 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C94216A446 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:05:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C2A9543D49 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:05:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 29306 invoked from network); 23 Jun 2005 06:05:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by salvador with SMTP; 23 Jun 2005 06:05:11 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.122.16]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050623060511.DGCA28012.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:05:11 +0800 Message-ID: <42BA5112.6050108@pacific.net.sg> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:05:06 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew L. Gould" References: <42BA2E0D.2090001@pacific.net.sg> <200506222334.46444.algould@datawok.com> In-Reply-To: <200506222334.46444.algould@datawok.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Ted Mittelstaedt , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:05:20 -0000 Hi, Andrew L. Gould wrote: > On Wednesday 22 June 2005 10:35 pm, Erich Dollansky wrote: > >>Hi, > > /--big snip--/ > That was a good idea. > That's a great analogy; but I disagree with the way you've applied it. > > Yes, the hunters and farmers shared the food. That's not to say that > the farmers wanted to use the bows and arrows, or that the hunters > wanted to use a harvesting tool. If a farmer chose to use a bow and > arrow, he/she would be irresponsible not to take a safety lesson > (RTFM). Will ever any farmer have taken a bow if there was no other way than RTFM? Just give them the bow, make sure nothing happens to yourself and otehr and let them have a try. > > That's okay. FreeBSD users are currently "specialized" in their This is one of the reasons of low 'market' share. > interest in computer technology when compared to the average Windows > user. That's okay too. Specialized tools serve are used by > specialized individuals; although all may benefit indirectly. > > I support better documentation. I don't think there's any argument I would not say there is a need for a better documentation as people who are IT professionals are fine with it. There is the need for a second set of documentation the avarage person on the road will understand. > there. The idea that FreeBSD should be usable for all levels of > computer users, however, is like putting training wheels on a racing > bicycle. Any time you modify a professional tool to make it accessible If Porsche would stop selling cars to people not pushing the cars to the limit, they would sell a few hundreds a year instead of many tenthousands. > to all, the tool loses some level of efficiency or power. In the case > of FreeBSD, it would also absorb valuable development resources. > This is what it should not. I think that there are enough people here who like to help out with their limited knowledge if there would not be this certain tone here if people do not use a very serious tone and lingo in their answers. > All of this reminds me of a book I saw at Barnes & Noble last year: > "Bioinfomatics for Dummies". Think about it: does anyone on this list > want a dummy messing with genetics? > We do not want them to run web server, just normal home PCs with FreeBSD instead of Windows or Linux. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 08:07:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C04FE16A41C; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:07:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4470443D55; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:07:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id j5N87Kb30072; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:07:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Erich Dollansky" Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:06:15 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <42BA2E0D.2090001@pacific.net.sg> Importance: Normal Cc: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:07:06 -0000 >-----Original Message----- >From: Erich Dollansky [mailto:oceanare@pacific.net.sg] >Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 8:36 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Fafa Hafiz Krantz; questions@freebsd.org; advocacy@freebsd.org >Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features > > >Hi, > >Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> >>>I do not think that it the design of Windows which makes it target. It >>>is the kind of support people with no knowledge get which makes it. >> >> >> People pay for Windows, not for FreeBSD. The support structures are >> totally different because of this. If support is what hinges >on getting > >I am not talking of the support people get by paying for it. Just go to >any support forum, mailing list or what ever name it has and >compare the >tone used there. > >The support is done by volunteers just like here. > >While people asking 'dumb' questions around FreeBSD just get a RTFM >while the same question around Windows might gives them a lot of verbal >abuse plus the answer. If a person wastes its time to write 'RTFM', the >same person could also write 'RTFM at page xx' and the answer is useful. > Tone is in the eye of the beholder. Sure, posts all contain a tone to them. But very little posted on this mailing list has been anywhere near as harsh as what you see sometimes on Usenet in the FreeBSD groups there. And I can tell you that absolutely nothing that I have EVER read here or on USENET has EVER held a candle to the power and majesty of the flames I used to read a decade ago the old WWIV network. (that software is available http://wwiv.sourceforge.net/ if you are interested) If you are put off by the tone of what you see here, you would become catatonic if you read 5 minutes of that. Those flamers were so good that they could cause temporary blindness to their victims. >> Bringing a large number of ignoramuses on board who are dedicated to >> continuing to be ignoramuses, does not help the FreeBSD project at >> all. It may help some people making money off servicing those people, >> but otherwise they are deadweight. >> >Then, never complain that FreeBSD does not reach a higher market share. > _I_ don't. Who does? > >I have to take my neighbour with her Ph.D. in biology again. We can >assume she has proven not to be a plain idiot. She got some of >the book, >looked at them for some days and said 'why should I study IT before I >can use FreeBSD'. > Why should I study the drivers manual before getting a drivers license? >> >> I can only ask why do you bother to garden in the first >place? Without >> that background, you don't know why the pesticide that she recommends >> works. And next season if it doesen't work, you don't know >why either. >> >I hope you never fall sick or have to undergo a serious >surgery. I've undergone far more serious surgery than you ever have, I'll wager. Try tumor removal. Where the tumor is next to your spine. You know, there's a few things in the way - like the small intestine. You wanna know what they do with that when they have to get at tumors at that location? I'll give you a hint - you don't get solid food for half a week at least before that operation, and your on an IV only, no drinking, for a day beforehand. > As long >as you do not understand how the whole procedure works, the doctor will >not be able to treat you. > That is correct. I don't allow someone to cut into my body until they have carefully explained how the whole procedure works and I understand it. I'm surprised you do. >> >> Honestly, before you knock it, you should try to understand >how the world >> works sometime. It's really a better way to live. Do you >really want to > >Let me put it this way. A long time ago, we call it now stone age, the >people started to realise that a group of people shows better >results if >they specialise. The people better in hunting went hunting, the people >better in 'farming'. Despite one group did not know how the other group >got their kind of food, they shared it. > And how exactly did they find out from the group of kids growing up each year which ones were better farmers and which ones were better hunters? At one point, the kids knew how to do both. You see, the stone age people understood that just because you had specialization, didn't mean that learning about someone else's specialty was a bad thing. After all, that other specialist might get et by a tiger, one day, and have to be replaced. That worked real well until the religious bigots came along and started enforcing stuff like the caste system, and forcing kids into the same jobs that their fathers, and father's fathers, and so on forever and ever, had held. That's when it became OK for everyone to be completely ignorant of how to do anyone elses' job but what their caste had always done. Ted From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 09:05:04 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6821916A420 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:05:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D7F743D53 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:05:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 13742 invoked from network); 23 Jun 2005 09:05:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by salvador with SMTP; 23 Jun 2005 09:05:00 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.122.16]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050623090500.UOA1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:05:00 +0800 Message-ID: <42BA7B35.60407@pacific.net.sg> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:04:53 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:05:04 -0000 Hi, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >>Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> > Tone is in the eye of the beholder. Sure, posts all contain a tone > to them. But very little posted on this mailing list has been > anywhere near as harsh as what you see sometimes on Usenet in the > FreeBSD groups there. > I did not say this at all. This tone is not abusive at all. It is also a very serious tone. The problem is that this is a tone a high number of people has problems with. > And I can tell you that absolutely nothing that I have EVER read > here or on USENET has EVER held a candle to the power and majesty Nothing ever came even close to the abuse at the national service I did. So, I also know the other extreme. >>Then, never complain that FreeBSD does not reach a higher market share. >> > _I_ don't. Who does? > Some do a logo contest to make FreeBSD more appearing, there is some activity going in. > >>I have to take my neighbour with her Ph.D. in biology again. We can >>assume she has proven not to be a plain idiot. She got some of >>the book, >>looked at them for some days and said 'why should I study IT before I >>can use FreeBSD'. >> > Why should I study the drivers manual before getting a drivers license? > I do not know why people do it. I just learned driving in a deserted place. > > > That is correct. I don't allow someone to cut into my body until they > have carefully explained how the whole procedure works and I understand > it. I'm surprised you do. > There is another difference. I asked 'my' surgeon a simple question: how many died in your hands doing this. The number wasn't zero but within avarage. With other words, I just trust them. > > And how exactly did they find out from the group of kids growing up > each year which ones were better farmers and which ones were better > hunters? > > At one point, the kids knew how to do both. You see, the stone age > people understood that just because you had specialization, didn't > mean that learning about someone else's specialty was a bad thing. But how deep did they go into the other's field? And, to come back to RTFM, did they first read a handbook or did they just have a try? > After all, that other specialist might get et by a tiger, one day, > and have to be replaced. > This happens now to specialists running Windows catching a virus too. > That worked real well until the religious bigots came along and started Yes, but there is a small difference to FreeBSD's use by others: they are not forced to use FreeBSD and they should be used to RTFM. There are so many people out there who do not understand things this way. Just allow them with some help from others who are willing to help. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 09:30:33 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EBD016A41C; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:30:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00E8E43D1D; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:30:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id j5N9VTb30845; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:31:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Erich Dollansky" Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:30:24 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <42BA7B35.60407@pacific.net.sg> Importance: Normal Cc: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:30:33 -0000 >-----Original Message----- >From: Erich Dollansky [mailto:oceanare@pacific.net.sg] >Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 2:05 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Fafa Hafiz Krantz; questions@freebsd.org; advocacy@freebsd.org >Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features > >>> >> _I_ don't. Who does? >> >Some do a logo contest to make FreeBSD more appearing, there is some >activity going in. Most of the rank and file argued long against that contest. >> Why should I study the drivers manual before getting a >drivers license? >> >I do not know why people do it. I just learned driving in a >deserted place. I didn't say "learned driving" I said "get a license" You have to learn what's in the manual to pass the test to get the license. >> >> >> That is correct. I don't allow someone to cut into my body until they >> have carefully explained how the whole procedure works and I >understand >> it. I'm surprised you do. >> >There is another difference. I asked 'my' surgeon a simple >question: how >many died in your hands doing this. The number wasn't zero but within >avarage. With other words, I just trust them. It's not a question of trust, it's a question of do I understand what is going to happen. I find post-operative pain a lot easier to bear when I know why it's hurting. > >Yes, but there is a small difference to FreeBSD's use by others: they >are not forced to use FreeBSD and they should be used to RTFM. > >There are so many people out there who do not understand things this >way. Just allow them with some help from others who are willing to help. > Ah, but help on who's terms? Telling a newbie to RTFM for an answer that he asks which is in the manual IS help. Ted From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 09:41:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C71216A41C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:41:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) Received: from a.mx.aegisnet.de (a.mx.aegisnet.de [213.238.36.211]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1E943D1F for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:41:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) Received: (qmail 10048 invoked from network); 23 Jun 2005 09:42:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO www.aegisnet.biz) ([213.238.36.211]) (envelope-sender ) by a.mx.aegisnet.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 23 Jun 2005 09:42:00 -0000 Received: from 213.39.175.208 (SquirrelMail authenticated user cz@aegisnet.biz) by www.aegisnet.biz with HTTP; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:42:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4116.213.39.175.208.1119519720.squirrel@www.aegisnet.biz> In-Reply-To: <200506221914.j5MJEnHf039939@fire.jhs.private> References: Message from Vulpes Velox of "Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:51:54 CDT." <20050622115154.25e1ffbe@vixen42.local.lan> <200506221914.j5MJEnHf039939@fire.jhs.private> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:42:00 +0200 (CEST) From: "Carsten Zimmermann" To: "Julian H. Stacey" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Use send-pr. Use chat@. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:41:42 -0000 Hi Julian, I wouldn't agree. When you consider the sheer amount of unresolved PRs, I have a problem with adding another one to that list. All the more when I don't know that my PR is backed by a greater part of the community. Only the fact that I can handle send-pr and I find me somebody with commit-rights doesn't make my contribution worthy. Instead, I would encourage people to ask whether there is support for their issue. Of course, this doesn't apply to obvious bugs. On the other hand, I wish people would realize sooner when a topic has been enough talked about. To summarize and put together your statement and mine: think before you act ;) Carsten Julian H. Stacey sagte: >> I feel the handbook could be made clearer in some areas, but I >> believe it is good in general. > > ( This Not directed at sender above, so sender's name omitted, but the > above > is a mild example of much worse noise from other hollow vessels on this > list. > If it doesn't help practical advocacy, a posting belongs to > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org , not advocacy@ , please more subscribe chat@ ) > > Before posting to advocacy@ eg: > "I think ... FreeBSD should .... blah, wheeze, drone ...." > Ask yourself: "When Did I Last Contribute Anything To FreeBSD ?" > > Please DO improve doc/ src/ ports/ www/ ... > create an improved version of the original master & then use diff & > send-pr. > Non programmers contribute patches for doc/ & www/ > > Consider the gnats receipt from send-pr your licence to post advocacy@ > (I sent a send-pr (re. man cvs yesterday), so I'm `paid up' for this one > :-) > > Go for it, send one ! man send-pr ; send-pr -- Carsten Zimmermann mailto:cz@aegisnet.biz Tel.: +49-(0)40-69790485 Aegis:Net IT-Dienstleistungen Wasmannstr. 39 22307 Hamburg http://www.aegisnet.biz Fax: +49-(0)40-69797010 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 10:31:04 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3087D16A41F for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:31:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 53A5E43D49 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:31:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 20931 invoked from network); 23 Jun 2005 10:31:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by salvador with SMTP; 23 Jun 2005 10:31:01 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.122.16]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050623103101.FDWG28012.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:31:01 +0800 Message-ID: <42BA8F5D.5040504@pacific.net.sg> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:30:53 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: questions@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:31:04 -0000 Hi, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >>>_I_ don't. Who does? >>> >>Some do a logo contest to make FreeBSD more appearing, there is some >>activity going in. > > Most of the rank and file argued long against that contest. > Not only them. >>>Why should I study the drivers manual before getting a >> >>drivers license? >> >>I do not know why people do it. I just learned driving in a >>deserted place. > > > I didn't say "learned driving" I said "get a license" You have > to learn what's in the manual to pass the test to get the license. > I also never studied that one. With other words: there is more than one way to get the knowledge. > > It's not a question of trust, it's a question of do I understand what > is going to happen. I find post-operative pain a lot easier to bear > when I know why it's hurting. > I do not bother to understand as long they say it is all right. > > Ah, but help on who's terms? Telling a newbie to RTFM for an answer that > he asks which is in the manual IS help. > Yes, it is help. But how dumb does a person have to be if this is of real help? Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 10:53:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75BB116A41F; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:53:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3C443D49; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:53:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A7DF1.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.125.241]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NArp8o028163; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:53:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5NArofV005796; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:53:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost.jhs.private [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5NAroYZ056434; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:53:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200506231053.j5NAroYZ056434@fire.jhs.private> to: advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message from "Ted Mittelstaedt" of "Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:06:15 PDT." Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:53:50 +0200 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: postmaster@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:53:57 -0000 Advocacy@ cc Postmaster, "Ted Mittelstaedt" dumped advocacy@ with cross posted irrelevant noise: Message-id: Other offenders also cross post off- remit irrelevance. Advocacy@ has flooded to a cesspit of irrelevance. List remit: http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy Please report offenders & cross posters to postmaster@ for removal. Thanks - Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 11:51:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 013EF16A41C; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:51:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from calculus@softhome.net) Received: from astro.systems.pipex.net (astro.systems.pipex.net [62.241.163.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD2D243D1D; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:51:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from calculus@softhome.net) Received: from SPECULUSHX1THE (81-178-187-76.dsl.pipex.com [81.178.187.76]) by astro.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 36D9CE0002BD; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:51:42 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <011001c577e9$f2412c90$0201a8c0@SPECULUSHX1THE> From: "cali" To: References: <42BA8F5D.5040504@pacific.net.sg> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:51:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:51:47 -0000 >> Ah, but help on who's terms? Telling a newbie to RTFM for an answer that >> he asks which is in the manual IS help. >> > Yes, it is help. But how dumb does a person have to be if this is of real > help? If they were like ultra-newbie, they might not even know how to access the manual, but this is improbable. The idea is, the newbie gets repeatedly told "RTFM", so that eventually they get the idea that they must work it out for themselves because they develop this inner fear of asking for help and being ridiculed, ie they don't want to portray themselves as a "lamer". Usually it works. Sometimes there are people who will spout "RTFM" willy-nilly. I have witnessed on several occassions (not on this list) of people spouting "RTFM" when the manual in question did not contain the answer to the question asked at all, thereby backfiring on the "RTFM" spouter and resulting in self-ridicule. In such cases I believe that the spouter has some self-esteem problem and likes to newbie-bash, or just hazards a guess that the answer must be in the manual and automatically spouts "RTFM". So the question bearer should state whether they have read the manual first. Then if it turns out that the answer is in the manual, they shall be ridiculed, resulting in them hopefully being much more careful next time when they read the manual. Sometimes people ask simple questions, the answer is in the manual, but reading the manual to find the answer is akin to reading a book to discover how many pages it has. In such cases one feels that the information asked should be somewhere else, not buried in a big manual. It may be more useful in such cases to just answer the question so it ends up in the mailing archive and comes up when someone searches for it. cali From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 12:27:07 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3AEB16A41C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:27:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A02743D4C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:27:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A4DCC.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.77.204]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NCQq8o028376; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:27:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5NCQcbg006006; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:26:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost.jhs.private [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5NCQc2l058453; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:26:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200506231226.j5NCQc2l058453@fire.jhs.private> To: "Carsten Zimmermann" In-Reply-To: Message from "Carsten Zimmermann" of "Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:42:00 +0200." <4116.213.39.175.208.1119519720.squirrel@www.aegisnet.biz> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:26:38 +0200 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Use send-pr. Use chat@. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:27:08 -0000 > Hi Julian, Hi Carsten > > I wouldn't agree. When you consider the sheer amount of unresolved PRs, I > have a problem with adding another one to that list. Yes, worrying, but a seperate problem. I suggested send-pr also for the Method: Regular cross posters of hot air on advocacy@ seem probably half incompetent. It'll take them time to learn to create better sources, & use diff -c & send-pr, during which they'll post less crap, & after they'll be more educated with less need to post noise as their only `Contribution'. > All the more when I don't know that my PR is backed by a greater > part of the community. Only the fact that I can handle send-pr and > I find me somebody with commit-rights doesn't make my contribution worthy. Commiters decide what is worthy. Convince a committer, & job done. Commiters have a structure of answerability to colleagues. > Instead, I would > encourage people to ask whether there is support for their issue. Of > course, this doesn't apply to obvious bugs. Yes, not good if we got a flood of noise via send-pr for cvs/www: Better for those who like to talk web to susbscribe www@. Content of advocacy@ will remain mostly a cesspit until the over opinionated & under skilled learn Not to excrete here without payment. Pay Here: man send-pr ; send-pr http://www.freebsd.org/support.html#gnats > On the other hand, I wish > people would realize sooner when a topic has been enough talked about. Yes. - Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 13:15:23 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0494516A41C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:15:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E8543D1D for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:15:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [10.3.101.26] (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5NDF43v039159; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:15:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <42BAB5D0.6050607@401.cx> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:14:56 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Julian H. Stacey" References: <200506221914.j5MJEnHf039939@fire.jhs.private> In-Reply-To: <200506221914.j5MJEnHf039939@fire.jhs.private> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Use send-pr. Use chat@. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:15:23 -0000 Julian H. Stacey wrote: >>I feel the handbook could be made clearer in some areas, but I >>believe it is good in general. > > > ( This Not directed at sender above, so sender's name omitted, but the above > is a mild example of much worse noise from other hollow vessels on this list. > If it doesn't help practical advocacy, a posting belongs to > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org , not advocacy@ , please more subscribe chat@ ) Julian, since you go out on a rampage everytime anyone posts something on advocacy@, I just have to ask; what, in your opinion, would be ok to discuss on this mailinglist? Clearly, improving the website or writing new documentation does not qualify in your eyes, so Im kind of curious on exactly how you define advocacy? FreeBSD.org describes advocacy@ as: "Furthering the Use of FreeBSD Share ideas and plan to increase the number of companies and individuals using FreeBSD". The original poster had an idea that he thought could increase the number of FreeBSD users, as well as allowing it to target new usergroups. If that does not fit the description, I dont know what does. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 13:47:01 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B37CB16A41C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:47:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4254843D4C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:47:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A7B4A.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.123.74]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j5NDkv8o028597; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:46:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j5NDkvRH006319; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:46:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost.jhs.private [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5NDkvsd059580; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:46:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200506231346.j5NDkvsd059580@fire.jhs.private> To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" In-Reply-To: Message from "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" of "Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:14:56 +0200." <42BAB5D0.6050607@401.cx> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:46:57 +0200 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Use send-pr. Use chat@. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:47:01 -0000 "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" wrote: > Julian H. Stacey wrote: > >>I feel the handbook could be made clearer in some areas, but I > >>believe it is good in general. > > > > > > ( This Not directed at sender above, so sender's name omitted, but the above > > is a mild example of much worse noise from other hollow vessels on this list. > > If it doesn't help practical advocacy, a posting belongs to > > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org , not advocacy@ , please more subscribe chat@ ) > > Julian, since you go out on a rampage everytime anyone posts > something on advocacy@, I just have to ask; what, in your opinion, > would be ok to discuss on this mailinglist? That which the list should contain as defined on web page. > Clearly, improving the website or writing new documentation does not > qualify in your eyes, Not true. However improving the web site belongs on www@ not advocacy@ If you want to write docs, Do ! & Submit them with send-pr. Get busy :-) > so Im kind of curious on exactly how you > define advocacy? > FreeBSD.org describes advocacy@ as: > "Furthering the Use of FreeBSD > Share ideas and plan to increase the number of companies and > individuals using FreeBSD". Fine > The original poster had an idea that he thought could increase the > number of FreeBSD users, as well as allowing it to target new > usergroups. If that does not fit the description, I dont know what does. Topics drift. Respondents drift. Many writers clearly have no intention of doing anything but chatting. Preaching to the choir is not useful. Organising external advocacy is useful. - Julian Stacey Consultant Systems Engineer, Munich. http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 14:39:33 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64FE16A41C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:39:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91D6443D49 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:39:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203FF60FB; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:39:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECE260FA; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:39:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E8CE133C29; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:39:23 +0200 (CEST) To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" References: <200506221914.j5MJEnHf039939@fire.jhs.private> <42BAB5D0.6050607@401.cx> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:39:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: <42BAB5D0.6050607@401.cx> (Roger Vetterberg's message of "Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:14:56 +0200") Message-ID: <86vf45cf38.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -5.2/5.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on tim.des.no Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: Use send-pr. Use chat@. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:39:33 -0000 "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" writes: > Clearly, improving the website or writing new documentation does not > qualify in your eyes, so Im kind of curious on exactly how you define > advocacy? Discussions about the web site belong on freebsd-www; discussions about documentation (new or existing) belong on freebsd-doc. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 14:46:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0CA16A41C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:46:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from warren@wandrsmith.net) Received: from ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4160043D55 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:46:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from warren@wandrsmith.net) Received: from CPE-65-28-60-94.kc.res.rr.com (CPE-65-28-60-94.kc.res.rr.com [65.28.60.94]) by ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j5NEk8du016323; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:46:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from www.wandrsmith.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by CPE-65-28-60-94.kc.res.rr.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 408C15E80; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:47:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 204.167.177.68 (SquirrelMail authenticated user warren) by www.wandrsmith.net with HTTP; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:47:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <14316.204.167.177.68.1119538063.squirrel@www.wandrsmith.net> In-Reply-To: <200506231346.j5NDkvsd059580@fire.jhs.private> References: Message from "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" of "Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:14:56 +0200." <42BAB5D0.6050607@401.cx> <200506231346.j5NDkvsd059580@fire.jhs.private> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:47:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "Warren Smith" To: "Julian H. Stacey" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Use send-pr. Use chat@. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: warren@wandrsmith.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:46:21 -0000 Julian H. Stacey said: >> FreeBSD.org describes advocacy@ as: >> "Furthering the Use of FreeBSD >> Share ideas and plan to increase the number of companies and >> individuals using FreeBSD". > > Fine > >> The original poster had an idea that he thought could increase the >> number of FreeBSD users, as well as allowing it to target new >> usergroups. If that does not fit the description, I dont know what does. > > Topics drift. Respondents drift. > Many writers clearly have no intention of doing anything but chatting. > Preaching to the choir is not useful. > Organising external advocacy is useful. > I agree that the "Explaining FreeBSD features" thread drifted significantly and that I may have been part of that drift. Ted's original response to Fafa's efforts was thought provoking. It made me ponder what groups we should be targeting for our advocacy efforts. Ted seemed to have some insight into the composition of the FreeBSD community and I wanted to discuss advocacy within that context. I don't post to the list often, mostly because I rarely feel I have anything to contribute. I suppose that some would say that I NEVER do. Perhaps I should have kept my recent disuccsion with Ted off-list. I considered it, but felt that defining what types of people are potential FreeBSD 'converts' was important and might be useful to other subscribers. Was I wrong in that assumption? -- Warren Smith warren@wandrsmith.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 17:16:09 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3861216A41C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:16:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB9C43D4C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:16:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from mvwcim1a.acuson.com ([157.226.95.42]:3831 helo=mvwcim1a.ww005.siemens.net) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1DlVJ6-0003qn-5J; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:16:04 -0700 Received: by mvwcim1a.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:16:04 -0700 Message-ID: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0866@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'cali' Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:16:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:16:09 -0000 From: cali [mailto:calculus@softhome.net] > > The idea is, the newbie gets repeatedly told "RTFM", so that eventually > they get the idea that they must work it out for themselves because they > develop this inner fear of asking for help and being ridiculed, ie they > don't want to portray themselves as a "lamer". Usually it works. If by "works", you mean people leave the community, then you are correct. We all know what "F" in "RTFM" means. While we may not say it with those words anymore, we still often say it with the same abusive attitude. It's far more productive to say "RTM" than "RTFM". It is an unfortunate fact that many other communities have trained their users to never read their manuals. Some communities don't even have decent manuals to read. We should not be punishing these users for their ignorance on the proper means to ask questions. Let them "RTM". The next time tell them "RTM on page 29". If they say they've read the manual but haven't, tell them "sorry", but don't abuse them. They're not lying so much as doing what they've been trained to do. Only when they persist in not reading the manual so you flame them a new orafice. And then do it off list. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 18:47:14 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6F2816A41C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:47:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1BAD43D58 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:47:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=yoda.datawok.com) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1DlWjJ-0008MQ-82; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:47:13 -0400 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:48:06 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0866@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> In-Reply-To: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0866@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200506231348.06197.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bcf6fa8a2fb1ad1a0ad984395b63896963350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 Cc: Johnson David , 'cali' Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:47:15 -0000 On Thursday 23 June 2005 12:16 pm, Johnson David wrote: > From: cali [mailto:calculus@softhome.net] > > > The idea is, the newbie gets repeatedly told "RTFM", so that > > eventually they get the idea that they must work it out for > > themselves because they develop this inner fear of asking for help > > and being ridiculed, ie they don't want to portray themselves as a > > "lamer". Usually it works. > > If by "works", you mean people leave the community, then you are > correct. We all know what "F" in "RTFM" means. While we may not say > it with those words anymore, we still often say it with the same > abusive attitude. It's far more productive to say "RTM" than "RTFM". > > It is an unfortunate fact that many other communities have trained > their users to never read their manuals. Some communities don't even > have decent manuals to read. We should not be punishing these users > for their ignorance on the proper means to ask questions. Let them > "RTM". The next time tell them "RTM on page 29". If they say they've > read the manual but haven't, tell them "sorry", but don't abuse them. > They're not lying so much as doing what they've been trained to do. > Only when they persist in not reading the manual so you flame them a > new orafice. And then do it off list. > > David I have, on occasion, used "RTFM", ignoring the "F"; but not thinking about whether the reader would ignore it as well -- poor form on my part. I will certainly drop the "F" in the future. Thanks for the lesson. ;-) Andrew Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 19:36:35 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C944516A41C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:36:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB5043D4C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:36:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B736460FE; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:36:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8203360FA; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:36:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0DFAE33D39; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:36:23 +0200 (CEST) To: "Andrew L. Gould" References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0866@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> <200506231348.06197.algould@datawok.com> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:36:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200506231348.06197.algould@datawok.com> (Andrew L. Gould's message of "Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:48:06 -0500") Message-ID: <86is04lvbd.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -5.2/5.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on tim.des.no Cc: Johnson David , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, 'cali' Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:36:35 -0000 "Andrew L. Gould" writes: > On Thursday 23 June 2005 12:16 pm, Johnson David wrote: > > If by "works", you mean people leave the community, then you are > > correct. We all know what "F" in "RTFM" means. While we may not say > > it with those words anymore, we still often say it with the same > > abusive attitude. It's far more productive to say "RTM" than "RTFM". > I have, on occasion, used "RTFM", ignoring the "F"; but not thinking > about whether the reader would ignore it as well -- poor form on my > part. I will certainly drop the "F" in the future. Why? Everybody knows the F stands for Fine :) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 23 19:47:36 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60B516A41C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:47:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from moutvdomng.kundenserver.de (moutvdom.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A10CC43D49 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:47:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from [212.227.126.224] (helo=mrvdomng.kundenserver.de) by moutvdomng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1DlXfh-0004B2-00; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:47:33 +0200 Received: from host81-153-214-78.range81-153.btcentralplus.com ([81.153.214.78] helo=localhost) by mrvdomng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1DlXfh-0002Za-00; Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:47:33 +0200 Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:47:31 +0100 From: "Liam J. Foy" To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav Message-ID: <20050623194731.GA1264@anarion> References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E0866@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> <200506231348.06197.algould@datawok.com> <86is04lvbd.fsf@xps.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86is04lvbd.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Cc: Johnson David , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, 'cali' Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:47:37 -0000 On Thu(23)/Jun/05 - , Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > "Andrew L. Gould" writes: > > On Thursday 23 June 2005 12:16 pm, Johnson David wrote: > > > If by "works", you mean people leave the community, then you are > > > correct. We all know what "F" in "RTFM" means. While we may not say > > > it with those words anymore, we still often say it with the same > > > abusive attitude. It's far more productive to say "RTM" than "RTFM". > > I have, on occasion, used "RTFM", ignoring the "F"; but not thinking > > about whether the reader would ignore it as well -- poor form on my > > part. I will certainly drop the "F" in the future. > > Why? Everybody knows the F stands for Fine :) > Wow, is that DES writing an email with a smiley face in it? Maybe god does exist after all. -- - Liam J. Foy liamfoy@sepulcrum.org