From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:27 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5212E16A42F; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED3443E37; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 823A25DCAC; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03A7E5C913 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAAEC56FEC; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:27:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49EED16A53E; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:26:55 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B59916A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:26:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B71043D1F; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:26:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.254.11] (junior-wifi.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBNGUErP089435; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:30:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <41CAF174.4020309@freebsd.org> From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040929 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jsha References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:28 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:25:24 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:28 -0000 jsha wrote: > Hello. > > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. > > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. > > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. > > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. > > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? > > Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) > > Sincerely, > Johann Manaf Tepstad > -- > j. > If you have the time, desire, and talent to address these issues, I'd love to see the results. I'd caution about being inflamatory in your first statement, though. The logo was definitely not done by a 10 yr old with PSPro, and it has emotional significance to many people. I'd definitely like to see what your ideas are for a replacement. Scott _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:30 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB0816A430; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6F7643D86; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 499C75DCA5; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE76F5C991 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:38:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D706256F73; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:38:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3408B16A534; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:38:04 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54CBA16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:37:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nic-naa.net (nic-naa.net [216.220.241.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F4843D5A; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:37:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brunner@nic-naa.net) Received: from nic-naa.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nic-naa.net (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBNCcWCl004127; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:38:32 GMT (envelope-from brunner@nic-naa.net) Message-Id: <200412231238.iBNCcWCl004127@nic-naa.net> To: jsha In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100." <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, brunner@nic-naa.net Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:32 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:38:32 +0000 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:32 -0000 > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. representations are secondary to function. there are markets for which this relationship is inverted. cost of entry is in the mid-eight-figure range. > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. code is art, and feelings are nice. please fix ebcdic first. unicode too. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. modernity is overrated. > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks dumb. > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. who, other than you, cares? > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. break your own website please. > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. break your own loader please. > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. if i give you one will you agree to do something useful? > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? most likely. its troll's fate. _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:33 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C1F16A43D; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7314F43E34; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2583C5DC9F; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAA205C991 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EDF356FFB; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:49:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF6816A4E5; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:49:29 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E7116A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:48:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp04.eresmas.com (asmtp04.eresmas.com [62.81.235.144]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D29F43D45; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:48:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ea1abz@wanadoo.es) Received: from [192.168.108.59] (helo=mx01.eresmas.com) by asmtp04.eresmas.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ChW8t-0001PO-BR; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:48:47 +0100 Received: from [80.103.47.197] (helo=[80.103.47.197]) by mx01.eresmas.com with asmtp (Exim 4.41) id 1ChW8l-0006ML-8q; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:48:46 +0100 Message-ID: <41CAF6F6.9070208@wanadoo.es> From: Ramiro Aceves User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040926) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jsha References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:34 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:48:54 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:34 -0000 jsha wrote: > Hello. > > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. I am new to FreeBSD, only one month of use or so. I come from Debian GNU/Linux world and only want to say some toughts: > > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. I really like the devil, it is nice and pleasant for me. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. The WEB is great!, I like WEBs with no images moving around! Debian WEB (www.debian.org) and FreeBSD WEB pages are simliar in aesthetics and I feel confortable. > > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. The instalation program is reasonably good , once you do a couple of installs you can do it without thinking too much. Enjoy FreeBSD. Ramiro. _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:35 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37B2816A443; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0687643E36; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 566755DCA7; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 420305C98A for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0038C56A6E; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:47:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E0B16A4D7; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:47:47 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29CDC16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:47:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D0F43D31; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:47:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.254.11] (junior-wifi.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBNGpEPF089509; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:51:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <41CAF660.6050000@freebsd.org> From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040929 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:36 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:46:24 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:36 -0000 Sam wrote: >> If we want to be taken seriously in the commercial world then we >> need to have the right image. > > > Look ma, a strawman! > > The concern you're addressing is the sort of thing distros > solved in the Linux world. Each typically has their own > "image," installer, system config style, etc. More importantly > for the "commercial world," though, they offer support and > certification. > > The image alone just isn't the problem. Or a problem at all, > I'd argue. Let's be honest -- if a ten-year-old made Beastie, > then a mentally challenged 3-year-old made Tux (and large > portions of the kernel, but I digress). > > Point being Johann, if the community rejects your work > for the core project you can still make your own distro > and release it. Give it a shot! > > Cheers, > > Sam The distro - vs - core release relationship is one of BSD's greatest strengths and weaknesses. It's a strength because there is no 'distro hell' like there is in linux. When you download FreeBSD, you get the same FreeBSD as everyone else; there is no confusion over how the config files are layed out, no differences in the base utilities, everything compiles the same way, etc. That is a huge benefit. But at the same time, it makes it really hard for people to branch out and experiment in the same way that a linux distro can. FreeSBIE is a good example of this happening and working, but it definitely has hurdles. Variety and competition makes the whole stronger, and at times FreeBSD seems a bit in-bred. To address this, I'm playing with ideas for changing the nature of a FreeBSD 'release' a bit to make it easier for outfits like FreeSBIE to build on top of it. Hopefully I'll have something to show for this in 6.0. Scott _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:36 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5106316A422; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E17843E3C; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E70515DCBD; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C125C98A for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 05:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C8E57327; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:35:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CFC616A51B; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:35:03 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BBB216A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx1.originative.co.uk (freebsd.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.249.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C132543D31; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from paul@mx1.originative.co.uk) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981CE15596; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx1.originative.co.uk ([127.0.0.1])port 10024) with ESMTP id 85128-04; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: by mx1.originative.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B5DE015639; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Paul Richards To: Daniel Blendea Message-ID: <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL, BAYES_00, DEAR_SOMETHING autolearn=no version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:38 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:40 +0000 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:38 -0000 On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 01:54:31PM +0200, Daniel Blendea wrote: > 1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if > the logo would change; > Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. Ignoring the whole beastie thing, because we've just done that whole issue, I think someone with skills other than coding taking an interest in our public image would be a good thing. >From a business perspective we look amateurish. Lots of people here don't seem to care about the outside world which reinforces the opinion that we've become a hobby OS project now. If we want to be taken seriously in the commercial world then we need to have the right image. Paul. _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:39 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F8DD16A448; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BCB443E35; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3089E5DCA1; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D73B5C994 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:46:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F3D8561FB; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:46:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF3516A4D9; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:46:31 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E1416A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:46:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A4643D45; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:46:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041224044618i9100rg29me>; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:46:27 +0000 Message-ID: <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:40 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:46:14 -0600 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:40 -0000 >>From a business perspective we look amateurish. > > I REALLY REALLY agree with this point, from the prospective of an outsider the website and "Image" conveys a real lack of professionalism, which is not true. I'm looking at the start page for FreeBSD right now and here are the things I do not like about it (please don't be offended if I step on toe's and ego's, I am only trying to better FreeBSD): 1. The "FreeBSD" logo is crap, not beastie (he's a keeper!!!, I'll hunt you down and do bad things to you if you take him away!), Just the black wannabe (and badly done) 3D effect "FreeBSD" part, really, I hate it. Redo the whole logo in photoshop with a bold, antialiased modern web font: (Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Century Gothic, etc.) and forget the whole 3D effect as that is so 90s. Generally all of your logo designs are unprofessional (the logos at the bottom of the page: FreeBSD MALL, UseNix, Daemon News, and Powered by FreeBSD for example) 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) 3. The color scheme is not "complementary" anyone who has been to art school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up about basic color theory here: http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever here of Cascading Style Sheets??) 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie the default. I have no real issues with the layout of the site and it would be nice if the installer was more user friendly but I am content with the way it is, maybe you should change the color scheme of the installer to match the website? Here are some example sites: http://m0n0.ch/wall/screens/system.png http://www.mozilla.org/ http://www.horde.org/logos/ http://www.xfce.org/ http://www.gnome.org/ http://www.gimp.org/ http://www.php.net/ http://freebsd.kde.org/ http://www.google.com/ http://www.apache.org/ http://www.adobe.com/ http://www.openoffice.org/ http://www.sun.com/ http://www.suse.com/ http://www.novell.com/ http://www.ibm.com/ http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/ http://www.mysql.com/ http://cocoon.apache.org/ http://www.w3.org/ http://www.penguincomputing.com/ FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:40 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C06616A44A; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B1B43E38; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 921D25DCAF; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1441F5C9A1 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D23E56FA9; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:28:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCCC16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:28:54 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B5D316A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:28:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from athena.softcardsystems.com (mail.softcardsystems.com [12.34.136.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C8C43D53; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:28:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sah@softcardsystems.com) Received: from athena (athena [12.34.136.114])iBNHN5fX030259; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:23:05 -0500 From: Sam X-X-Sender: sah@athena To: Paul Richards In-Reply-To: <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> Message-ID: References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:40 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:23:05 -0500 (EST) X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:40 -0000 > If we want to be taken seriously in the commercial world then we > need to have the right image. Look ma, a strawman! The concern you're addressing is the sort of thing distros solved in the Linux world. Each typically has their own "image," installer, system config style, etc. More importantly for the "commercial world," though, they offer support and certification. The image alone just isn't the problem. Or a problem at all, I'd argue. Let's be honest -- if a ten-year-old made Beastie, then a mentally challenged 3-year-old made Tux (and large portions of the kernel, but I digress). Point being Johann, if the community rejects your work for the core project you can still make your own distro and release it. Give it a shot! Cheers, Sam _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:40 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEED316A44F; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29D0C43E3B; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DD7585DCBA; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A368B5C907 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 04:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5832C57153; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:00:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132D916A4D2; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:00:08 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E472C16A4D4 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:59:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9358743D58 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:59:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from simon.burke@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 67so963wri for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:59:30 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=E8vkXHnY0hs/WazyQ2cIR8TY1tCZJtsplHgeHiTxfF3nndXJyEPboxs6DEnpQKw3+a/datvLGKAn5zA0oKzEY6zdx8lVLHfe6H11R44xnhBBVxDUqD7zFGrYn6GHK2YBaiRaiYz6N5Trgk3hW9hcoz6DAJGKUIFyALJBxYEtYx4= Received: by 10.54.6.55 with SMTP id 55mr5892wrf; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:59:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.11.57 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:59:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> From: Simon Burke In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL, BAYES_00, MISSING_HEADERS, RCVD_BY_IP autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Reply-To: Simon Burke List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:40 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:59:29 +0000 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:40 -0000 > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. I would like to know how you assume that he is a representation of evil, ok he looks like a little devil char but there is more than one definition of a devil and besides he looks kind of cute. So the logo/mascot has been around a while but that doesnt warrant change. If it does then most companies in the world need to update their logos too. Also freebsd is an operating system, if the developers and such spent all this time maintaining its image rather than its OS then freeBSD would no longer be such a great operating system. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. Granted the installer is not the best installer around, but the main point is that it does the job and it is pretty easy to follow in my opinion anyway. Also there are a couple of projects to my knowledge that are aiming to improve it. > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont understand > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? > > Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) -- Theres no place like ::1 Thanks, SimonB _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:41 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7E716A44D; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE2143E4E; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 885C55DCD0; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C5D5C992 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:48:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 085CE55D32; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:48:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E8416A4D2; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:48:04 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3262316A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:48:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F55A43D1D; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:48:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041224064759i9100rfo80e>; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:48:01 +0000 Message-ID: <41CBBB9A.5000001@nbritton.org> From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John-Mark Gurney References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> In-Reply-To: <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:41 -0000 X-Original-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:47:54 -0600 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:41 -0000 John-Mark Gurney wrote: >Nikolas Britton wrote this message on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:46 -0600: > > >>2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a >>modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading >>Style Sheets?) >> >> > >you mean a sans-serif font? yes, most computer display fonts should >be sans-serif since the screen resolution does not always allow you to >do that... (and Helvetica isn't that modern, about 50 years old now >it appears)... > > Yes >As for CSS, it appears that we do use CSS on the site: > > >And part of CSS is letting people choose what font they want to display >the site in... It appears at least Mozilla chooses Times by default... >So I'd more complain to the browers that display with the default font.. > > > learn something new everyday, thanks for the tip. _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED6516A459; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC9343E4C; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7CEC35DCCE; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7495C994 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0862955BB1; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 07:21:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8022716A4D5; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 07:21:01 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939BA16A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 07:20:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F374943D2D; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 07:20:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iBO7Kkv63386; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:20:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Nikolas Britton" , "Chris" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <41CBB299.4020707@nbritton.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Paul Richards Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:42 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:20:46 -0800 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:42 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Nikolas Britton > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:09 PM > To: Chris > > > > Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. > > If thats what it takes to get FreeBSD out of obscurity and into the > enterprise then yes I will, just look at what apple did with BSD and > mozilla did with firefox, I don't want to see FreeBSD (or the other > BSDs) die into obscurity as I really like them. > I think there's more FreeBSD installations than Apple installations, way, way more. Obscurity is in the eye of the beholder. And talk is cheap. The FreeBSD documentation team has already asked the FreeBSD community to do a site redesign, see here: http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/current.html#website-css Nobody has stepped up to do it. Since your so hot to redesign the site why don't you e-mail them and get going on doing it instead of talking about it? Ted _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:43 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22FB716A435; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 241A143E51; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B15775DCD8; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA345C99C for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:40:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D945678D; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:40:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF25D16A4D5; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:40:07 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9EE16A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:40:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A30343D4C for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:40:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (qmail 6709 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 05:40:05 -0000 Received: from gate.funkthat.com (HELO hydrogen.funkthat.com) ([69.17.45.168]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 24 Dec 2004 05:40:05 -0000 Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (kjofyb@localhost.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1])iBO5e2GH065965; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:40:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iBO5e0MG065948; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:40:00 -0800 (PST) From: John-Mark Gurney To: Nikolas Britton Message-ID: <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> Mail-Followup-To: Nikolas Britton , Paul Richards , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:43 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:40:00 -0800 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:43 -0000 Nikolas Britton wrote this message on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:46 -0600: > 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a > modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading > Style Sheets?) you mean a sans-serif font? yes, most computer display fonts should be sans-serif since the screen resolution does not always allow you to do that... (and Helvetica isn't that modern, about 50 years old now it appears)... As for CSS, it appears that we do use CSS on the site: And part of CSS is letting people choose what font they want to display the site in... It appears at least Mozilla chooses Times by default... So I'd more complain to the browers that display with the default font.. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:43 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9B416A423; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3132243E59; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C97365DCDE; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CE75C9A7 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:02:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5409E56DAF; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:01:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE0DA16A4CF; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:01:50 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C3916A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:01:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE68D43D46; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:01:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0090260E2; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:01:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 44906-06; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:01:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C10360CD; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:01:38 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041218) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nikolas Britton References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.0 (20041102) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:43 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:02:13 -0600 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:43 -0000 Nikolas Britton wrote: > >>> From a business perspective we look amateurish. >> I have held off thus far... >> > I REALLY REALLY agree with this point, from the prospective of an > outsider the website and "Image" conveys a real lack of professionalism, > which is not true. No you don't - would you prefer multi-colored windows? A penguin? What? Are we looking into the geo-political correctness as in the like as the NetBSD project took? > I'm looking at the start page for FreeBSD right now and here are the > things I do not like about it (please don't be offended if I step on > toe's and ego's, I am only trying to better FreeBSD): Here we go - Let's just re engineer life as we know it. Lets also not offend gays, users of color, males, females, users of religion, users of no religion, users of Windows, users of Linux, users of DOS, users of NetWare, etc, etc, etc. > 1. The "FreeBSD" logo is crap, not beastie (he's a keeper!!!, I'll hunt > you down and do bad things to you if you take him away!), Just the black > wannabe (and badly done) 3D effect "FreeBSD" part, really, I hate it. > Redo the whole logo in photoshop with a bold, antialiased modern web > font: (Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Century Gothic, etc.) and forget the > whole 3D effect as that is so 90s. Generally all of your logo designs > are unprofessional (the logos at the bottom of the page: FreeBSD MALL, > UseNix, Daemon News, and Powered by FreeBSD for example) You will do no such thing - see above, read the threads on the NetBSD site as to the redoing of the "logo" > 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a > modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading > Style Sheets?) CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? > 3. The color scheme is not "complementary" anyone who has been to art > school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up > about basic color theory here: > http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever > here of Cascading Style Sheets??) Guess what mate - most of us are NOT into art. Get real. Deal with the OS, not the look and feel of the site. Do I really care if a design has passion blue opposed to blue? Do you really thing techies are THAT into pastels? If you want to re design something (Actually - is sounds like you have been watching way too much TLC) then get a gig on Monster House. > 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is > unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie > the default. Who cares?!?! It's resource friendly tho... > I have no real issues with the layout of the site and it would be nice > if the installer was more user friendly but I am content with the way it > is, maybe you should change the color scheme of the installer to match > the website? Snip - not worth repeating. > FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. -- Best regards, Chris _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:44 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C1EF16A45A; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30FDC43E50; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A5AA35DCD4; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D855C9A1 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4171555902; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:58:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE8F16A4D5; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:58:09 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED8416A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:58:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from postit.mail.adnap.net.au (postit.mail.adnap.net.au [203.6.132.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D113E43D2F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:58:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bastill@adam.com.au) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (202-6-154-250.ip.adam.com.au [202.6.154.250]) by postit.mail.adnap.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32E551C449; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:28:03 +1030 (CST) From: Brian Astill To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200412241627.51795.bastill@adam.com.au> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00, DATE_IN_FUTURE_12_24 autolearn=no version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Nikolas Britton , Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:44 -0000 X-Original-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:27:51 -0500 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:44 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:46 pm, Nikolas Britton wrote: > FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. > _______________________________________________ It also needs people who realise that multiple cross-posting is deprecated. Could this conversation please be moved to -advocacy and ONLY to -advocacy? Thanks. -- Regards, Brian sos-sa.org.au _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA5E16A434; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3669C43D66; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2A6EC5DCA6; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4FC5C8B1 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FED9563B7; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:47:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF2E16A51F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:47:12 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD6516A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:47:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF39D43D41; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:47:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 9EB6D530C; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:47:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id AEDF75308; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:46:20 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 40557B874; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:46:20 +0100 (CET) To: Giorgos Keramidas References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) In-Reply-To: <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> (Giorgos Keramidas's message of "Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:22:46 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Nikolas Britton , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:45 -0000 X-Original-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:46:19 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:45 -0000 Giorgos Keramidas writes: > On 2004-12-23 23:02, Chris wrote: > > Nikolas Britton wrote: > > > 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site > > > with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of > > > Cascading Style Sheets?) > > CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? > Actually, no. Nikolas is right here. The sans serif fonts look much > better and are more readable on the monitor. Times looks better on > paper. Times New Roman was designed for a single purpose: to remain readable even when smudged or printed on low-quality paper. It does not really look good on any medium, but it's less bad than most other fonts on newsprint. Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this discussion. Responding to Nikolas: Arial and Verdana are Windows fonts which is not necessarily installed on www.freebsd.org's readers' machines (though it is available in ports). Conversely, Helvetica is generally not available in Windows. CSS defines 'sans-serif' as a generic alias for whichever sans-serif font looks best on each particular platform (it maps to Arial in Windows, and Helvetica or similar in X); likewise, it defines 'serif' as a generic alias for serif fonts (it maps to Times New Roman in Windows, and a variety of Roman fonts in X depending on the browser and on what fonts are available). DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:46 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A7DB16A463; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FDD443E6F; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5F76D5DCED; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 223D35C907 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:23:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59196560C1; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:23:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1BA16A4D6; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:23:46 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B8816A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:23:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kane.otenet.gr (kane.otenet.gr [195.170.0.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E5443D4C; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:23:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b238.otenet.gr [212.205.244.246]) iBOENalo011721; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:23:38 +0200 Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBOENXPJ001444; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:23:33 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBOEMkmE001441; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:22:46 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Chris , Nikolas Britton Message-ID: <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS autolearn=no version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:46 -0000 X-Original-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:22:46 +0200 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:46 -0000 On 2004-12-23 23:02, Chris wrote: >Nikolas Britton wrote: >> 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site >> with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of >> Cascading Style Sheets?) > > CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? Actually, no. Nikolas is right here. The sans serif fonts look much better and are more readable on the monitor. Times looks better on paper. > >3. The color scheme is not "complementary" anyone who has been to art > >school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up > >about basic color theory here: > >http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever > >here of Cascading Style Sheets??) > > Guess what mate - most of us are NOT into art. Get real. Deal with the > OS, not the look and feel of the site. Do I really care if a design > has passion blue opposed to blue? The fact that we don't know a lot about art and design is not a good excuse for reacting badly to anyone that says so. Nikolas, there is an effort to redesign the web site, using CSS as much as possible for style & layout, making sure that the entire site has a consistent look and feel. Your comments show that you know a bit about design. If you believe you can help with such an effort, please contact us at and assist the team who works on the web site. > Do you really thing techies are THAT into pastels? If you want to re > design something (Actually - is sounds like you have been watching way > too much TLC) then get a gig on Monster House. > > >4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is > >unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie > >the default. > > Who cares?!?! It's resource friendly tho... ``Who cares?'' is exactly the sort of bad PR that Nikolas is right about. Please avoid inflammatory material, if possible :-/ Nikolas, there is a good reason why the ASCII art logo is not using colors by default. Many people use FreeBSD with a serial console, and sending colors over a serial port connection is a bit silly: annoying an a waste of precious serial connection bandwidth. This is why the loader logo doesn't use fancy colors by default. - Giorgos _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:48 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B6D16A458; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97EC343E8A; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D039B5DD0E; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA8305C981 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC87155C73; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:33:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C22616A4D4; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:33:42 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8668D16A4CE; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:32:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from schlepper.zs64.net (schlepper.zs64.net [212.12.50.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0263643D2D; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:32:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stb@lassitu.de) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (schlepper [212.12.50.230]) by schlepper.zs64.net (8.13.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id iBU0WBAE000914; Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:32:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from stb@lassitu.de) In-Reply-To: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> References: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3D6982C4-59FA-11D9-8D31-000A95C893E4@lassitu.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Stefan Bethke To: Nikolas Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Simon Burke Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:48 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 01:32:09 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:48 -0000 It was fun while it lasted. Please stop. If you have to, move this to chat. -- Stefan Bethke Fon +49 170 346 0140 _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:48 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEDC616A43B; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92ACC43D1F; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 07F295DCE8; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F03D5C98A for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:07:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50C1B564DA; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80DB216A4EC; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:33 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590D716A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from orchid.homeunix.org (awl227.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.27.71.227]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6063243D31; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@orchid.homeunix.org) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (blackacidevil.orchid.homeunix.org [192.168.1.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by orchid.homeunix.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBNH44ww039913 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:07:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from freebsd@orchid.homeunix.org) Message-ID: <41CAFA83.4020300@orchid.homeunix.org> From: Karol Kwiatkowski User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ramiro Aceves References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <41CAF6F6.9070208@wanadoo.es> In-Reply-To: <41CAF6F6.9070208@wanadoo.es> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.5.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/639/Wed Dec 22 15:09:50 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on orchid.homeunix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Reply-To: freebsd@orchid.homeunix.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:49 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:04:03 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:49 -0000 Ramiro Aceves wrote: > jsha wrote: >> 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks >> like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years >> ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very >> disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. > > I really like the devil, it is nice and pleasant for me. A bit OT, but to make things clear I'd like to point out it's not the devil. It's a daemon. BSD Daemon. "Many people equate the word ``daemon'' with the word ``demon,'' implying some kind of Satanic connection between UNIX and the underworld. This is an egregious misunderstanding. ``Daemon'' is actually a much older form of ``demon''; daemons have no particular bias towards good or evil, but rather serve to help define a person's character or personality. The ancient Greeks' concept of a ``personal daemon'' was similar to the modern concept of a ``guardian angel'' --- ``eudaemonia'' is the state of being helped or protected by a kindly spirit. As a rule, UNIX systems seem to be infested with both daemons and demons." quote from: http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html Regards, Karol -- Karol Kwiatkowski _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:49 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7E1D16A465; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4996743E3A; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AAC375DCB3; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D221C5C98A for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 04:43:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B47F556E4F; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:43:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9CE16A4DB; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:43:27 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF0416A4CF for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:43:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mailserv1.neuroflux.com (ns2.neuroflux.com [204.228.228.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ADF743D4C for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:43:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ryans@gamersimpact.com) Received: (qmail 5729 invoked by uid 89); 23 Dec 2004 12:40:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO www2.neuroflux.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 23 Dec 2004 12:40:58 -0000 Received: from 63.231.157.250 (SquirrelMail authenticated user ryans@gamersimpact.com); by www2.neuroflux.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 05:40:58 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <49467.63.231.157.250.1103805658.squirrel@63.231.157.250> In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> From: "Ryan Sommers" To: "jsha" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL, BAYES_00, DEAR_SOMETHING autolearn=no version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:49 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 05:40:58 -0700 (MST) X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:49 -0000 Going to reply to the whole thread so far. jsha said: > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years Although I don't like the tone of the other replies, I agree with their sentiment, beasty is as much a part of FreeBSD as the family dog is a part of the family. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. I don't think the website is all that ugly, personally, however, a new design isn't out of the question. So long as content and navigation is somewhat preserved. I've found certain things difficult to find again when I remember that I saw them somewhere, and I've been using FreeBSD for 7 years now. > > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. This is on many people's minds, including my own. Now that the holidays are upon us I'm going to try and spend a little of my free time working on putting my ideas into code. Or, I might look again at FreeBSDIE and bsdinstaller and seeing what it would take to bring them into the tree. > > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behing a business card. > > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? > If you feel it needs to be done, and you would like to work on it, more power to you! Come up with a concept design and submit it for review. I think there are definite improvments to be made in the eyes of the new-comer. I believe there is a www@ team is there not? Might try posting to that list and see what you come up with. FreeBSD survives off people spending time where they see fit. If web-dev and graphic arts is your thing and you want to contribute, I for one will give you the time to submit my opinion of your work. Daniel Blendea said: > 1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if > the logo would change; > Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. > > 2. again, bu**s**it, the colors are not ugly at ALL, - and i'm not a > fan of site's color theme coz i prefer blue-ish colors - again, think > about identity...whenever one FreeBSD'er sees the logo/colors - on > software packages, media and the like - he will know that product is > related to FreeBSD > > 3. please install FreeBSD couple of times, and afterwards you'll get > to install it eyes- closed.. This is hardly the way to represent and argument. There is no need to be profane at someone for expressing their ideas to aid the project. It should be encouraged. Others, please don't feed the troll. Simon Burke said: > Also freebsd is an operating system, if the developers and such spent > all this time maintaining its image rather than its OS then freeBSD > would no longer be such a great operating system. The code developers don't have to spend time on web-dev and graphics. But if there is a willing body that might not be able to work on the code but has talent in the user-interface, web-development, and graphic arts field, why not let them give their time to the project in a manner that fits their skills? Please don't bash or make light of those that contribute things other than code. Rock on doc@ team. Code or not you've done a great job. It takes many skillsets to develop and maintain a tool such as FreeBSD code is just one of them. -- Ryan Sommers ryans@gamersimpact.com _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:50 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D146116A426; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C1F043E73; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7BF6C5DCF2; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C3A55C981 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8E0A55B69; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2310416A4D5; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:30 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6D616A4CE; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (cpc2-cdif3-6-0-cust204.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.103.67.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CEB43D58; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1Chzk7-000C1I-RH; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:11 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Nikolas Britton , Paul Richards , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, www@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041225002511.GC7445@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Nikolas Britton , Paul Richards , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, www@freebsd.org References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sHrvAb52M6C8blB9" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:50 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:11 +0000 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:50 -0000 --sHrvAb52M6C8blB9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 09:40:00PM -0800, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > Nikolas Britton wrote this message on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:46 -0600: [ Choosing a random(ish) post to reply to - I am on holiday right now and I will not pretend to have read the whole thread ] > > 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with = a=20 > > modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascadin= g=20 > > Style Sheets?) >=20 > you mean a sans-serif font? yes, most computer display fonts should > be sans-serif since the screen resolution does not always allow you to > do that... (and Helvetica isn't that modern, about 50 years old now > it appears)... >=20 > As for CSS, it appears that we do use CSS on the site: > I just committed that before I left for holidays; it is only a first step towards CSS'ing the site, and once the conversion to CSS is complete then it should be simple to have an a "best stylesheet" competition or similar (something along those lines was discussed on doc@ a couple of weeks ago). Matt Seaman posted a link to a crappy "here is what CSS can do" mockup that I posted to doc@ just before the commit mentioned above - it's at http://shrike.submonkey.net/~ceri/data2/index.html (be sure to let all the images load - this is on a slow link - and be aware that it doesn't work properly in IE for reasons that DES mentioned elsewhere). Once the conversion to CSS is complete then I have ideas for a way to offer users a personalised stylesheet (subject to implementation [I do not have a computer with me] and benchmarking [it is likely to be a little slow, though this remains to be seen]), and then you will all whine like bitchen about being asked to accept a cookie. Simon@ also has a parallel project running to redesign the site on a more fundamental which is showing promise; my main focus at present is to migrate all style related bits into stylesheets, at which point it will be easy to mess around with colour/font/layout. At present, it is not. So yes, to whoever asked the question, we have heard of CSS and we have not only been using it (minimally) for over three years, but there is real activity in improving what we do have already. > And part of CSS is letting people choose what font they want to display > the site in... It appears at least Mozilla chooses Times by default... > So I'd more complain to the browers that display with the default font.. Stimmt. Ceri --=20 Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Einstein (attrib.) --sHrvAb52M6C8blB9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBzLNnocfcwTS3JF8RAmkHAKDIfGR6TJaNi+IQKLqo+N3plg6LaQCcDGW+ +gHjlNh7VE624g9IzAxaEQs= =gaup -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sHrvAb52M6C8blB9-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:50 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D878F16A468; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E43543E7C; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E6EFD5DD05; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 755415C9BC for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 23:24:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C65F555CD; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:23:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6317516A514; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:23:36 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F4716A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:23:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F87E43D4C; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 07:23:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fpawlak@wi.rr.com) Received: from john.wi.rr.com (CPE-24-160-252-207.wi.rr.com [24.160.252.207]) iBS7NEgV028552; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:23:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20041228011612.0285ccd8@pop-server.wi.rr.com> X-Sender: fpawlak@pop-server.wi.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt , "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , Simon Burke From: Frank Pawlak In-Reply-To: References: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-235E4711 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:50 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:23:57 -0600 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:50 -0000 This beyond a doubt is one of the best explanations that I have seen, heard, expressed, etc., of how the fsck'ed up world of business does IT stuff, and I have done IT consulting on various levels for over 18 years. Very well said Ted. It points out quite well why BSD in general has a bad time in the marketplace. Regards, Frank At 11:36 PM 12/27/2004, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' > > Vetterberg > > Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM > > To: Simon Burke > > Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > > Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? > > > > > > Simon Burke wrote: > > [snip] > > >>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > > >> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > > >> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But > > a redesign > > >> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > > >> ugly. > > > > > > > > > Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > > > do. Also i actually like how it looks. > > > A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > > > dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > > > navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > > > really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > > > would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > > > have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > > > > This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the > > problem. > >Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD integration >in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand the problem. > > > Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the > > flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to > > have today. > >That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it >because it works better than most commercial operating systems let >alone most operating systems. > > > But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to > > improve the website. Why? > > Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar > > and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows > > why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid > > stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as > > a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming > > towards the nearest linux advocate instead. > >Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about >a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need done >be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me >in to you' > >FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. Linux >meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C and usually >meets B and doesen't usually meet A. > >The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO and >I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source provider, >then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm locked into >you. Once that happens my thought processes are that your going to become >very expensive to me - why, because there's no competition to you out there. >I'm not going to do that unless I trust you implicitly. And there's very >few business people I am ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless >your a son or daughter, and even then I may not. > >You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk >thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't >understand what your selling, they don't understand how to integrate >technology into their systems, they don't even understand their >current system. > >CEO's choose Windows because they think that there's enough Windows >guys out there that if they don't like the one they have they can >boot him out and get another. They only will give up choosing Windows >if they either absolutely cannot afford it, or if Windows simply won't >do what they need done. > >If they cannot afford it, what they will then do is keep dragging >Windows consultant after Windows consultant in to present to them, >until they stumble over an ignoramus (which is not hard) who over >commits himself and promises the world. They will then burn up >this guy, threatening lawsuits and everything else until they have >extracted the last drop of free work they can, then they will >jettison him. If they simply cannot find any ignoramuses then >I've seen them try deputizing some sales guy or secretary to manage >their Windows deployment, and finally a year afterwards when they >have a house full of Windows XP Home edition and no server, and >a giant workgroup that's falling apart, and they have lost some >critical files because they wern't backing up Sally Sue's workstation >and her disk crashed, then they will panic and overspend on a >Windows installation. > >The CEO's that choose FreeBSD or Linux are the ones where even the >Windows consultants they drag in all tell them "I can't do that" >either because Windows cannot do it, or because the price they >want it done at is so unbelievably cheap that even the ignoramus >Windows consultants can see that it's impossible. > >My take on it is that about 90% of the FreeBSD production installs >are least-cost deals. All of the ones we have ever sold to >customers (and we do both Windows and UNIX projects) are like this. >I'm sure that one of these days we might get a plum contract that >is a high-power server that cannot be done with Windows and the >customer knows it, and wants it done UNIX, it's only a matter of >time. But I would be willing to bet that after they ask if we can >do UNIX and we say yes, their next question will be if we can do >Sun, which we can. And frankly the cost of Solaris for a server is >nothing compared to the labor cost. > >I've frankly never seen a Linux-vs-FreeBSD deal where Linux won >if the consultant wanted to use FreeBSD, and the customer was willing >to deviate from Microsoft. VERY few customers are willing to deviate >from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. And the ones >that are willing almost always want to do it themselves, and only >want us to come in and set everything up for them while they watch >us over the shoulder and try to get us to teach them how to >do it - because these are people who are too lazy to read the manual >and learn how to do things themselves, they just want someone to >set it up and teach them how to maintain it, so they can pay the >minimum amount of money for the specialist, and spend the minimum >amount of time learning how to do anything. > > > We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be > > taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > > > >I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue >that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite obviously >superior to the FreeBSD one. > > > > > Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. > > > >Roger you are just being impatient. You haven't defined 'big' here >but if you mean 'big' in that the company has over 500 employees >in an office building, then even you must know that the check signers >in these companies are almost never under the age of 40. Most >of them are over 40 and most of them came up through the sales ranks, >and not through the technology ranks. These are people who 25 years ago >were partying their way through a business degree in some university >and the only thing that they really know well is how to sell their >companies products. That's why they work at a big company, didn't you >know? Deep down they know they are incompetents and they are too >scared to go out on their own even when they could make triple the >money if they really knew what they were doing. > >They don't really understand anything about technology >infrastructure and they certainly didn't go to grade school or high >school with a personal computer in the house, like kids today. And >the worst part is that they matriculated during the time that in >business education in this country that the 'cog in the machine' aspect >of workers was totally emphasized. Their professors drilled into >their heads the idea that every worker in the company must be >interchangable and they deep down detest and hate the idea of there >being any such thing as 'key employees' > >Why do you think that the current federal government administration >just takes the position that workers need to retrain to the new >economy, as if just retraining 100 million people every 5 years to >new jobs is a good way to run the economy? This is a message that >comes straight out of that generation and resonates with todays >big business movers and shakers. That is why these people are doing >such a terrible job mucking up American big business today, the current >debacle with the airline industry is proof of that, and the amount >of bankruptcies over the last 6 years has been breathtaking. Very >few of these idiots are anything more than closet control freaks. > >To be successful in todays market you have to be able to individualize >your products to what the customers in the market want, and there >is no way for a big business to do that without really drastically >increasing the complexity of it's business workflow. Customers today want >you to stock 100 variations of your product and build all of them to order, >and they want it for the same price that 20 years ago they would >buy the cookie-cutter version you could sell them for. The only >way to do that is to integrate technology completely in every last >speck of business process that a big company does, and it takes a crew of >key technicians to do that. The few big companies that have learned >this aren't asking consultants what the damn operating system is >going to be on the computer systems they are asking the consultants >to build for them. They are telling the consultants 'this is what >the end result needs to be, you either figure out how to get it >for us using whatever things you want to use to get there, or get >the hell out' > >Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these >CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big >words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and >even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is >something that runs computers like winders is. And rather >than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice >new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be >big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. Get >them sold on the idea that your providing a -solution to their >problems- not that your providing them some freebsd system >that is real cool and does something they are pretty fuzzy >about exactly what. If they start asking you exactly how your >going to do this don't get sidetracked into a technologists >conversation. > >In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson >that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. These >CEO's really are more interested in things like when your going to >be finished building the new system, who is going to train the >end users, how is it going to help them make money, how much money >are they going to have to pay for it upfront, and how much money >they are going to have to pay for it ongoing. The salesperson should >be figuring all that out with them first. You shouldn't even >be talking about operating systems until you have sold them on >yourself and your company, and if FreeBSD really is an objection >to them, then they should like you enough so that they want you >to build a Linux solution for them. Once you get them hooked and >after a year or so you can switch them over to FreeBSD. > >Ted > >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17DE116A429; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF7243D69; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1A1075DC5C; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C3E5C9B4 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD2E55EC3; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:36:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6106C16A4CF; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:36:51 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF3616A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:36:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15E6643D46; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:36:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iBS5aav82480; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:36:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , "Simon Burke" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:51 -0000 X-Original-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:36:36 -0800 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:51 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' > Vetterberg > Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM > To: Simon Burke > Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? > > > Simon Burke wrote: > [snip] > >>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > >> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > >> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But > a redesign > >> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > >> ugly. > > > > > > Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > > do. Also i actually like how it looks. > > A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > > dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > > navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > > really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > > would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > > have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > > This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the > problem. Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD integration in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand the problem. > Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the > flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to > have today. That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it because it works better than most commercial operating systems let alone most operating systems. > But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to > improve the website. Why? > Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar > and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows > why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid > stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as > a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming > towards the nearest linux advocate instead. Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me in to you' FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. Linux meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C and usually meets B and doesen't usually meet A. The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO and I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source provider, then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm locked into you. Once that happens my thought processes are that your going to become very expensive to me - why, because there's no competition to you out there. I'm not going to do that unless I trust you implicitly. And there's very few business people I am ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless your a son or daughter, and even then I may not. You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't understand what your selling, they don't understand how to integrate technology into their systems, they don't even understand their current system. CEO's choose Windows because they think that there's enough Windows guys out there that if they don't like the one they have they can boot him out and get another. They only will give up choosing Windows if they either absolutely cannot afford it, or if Windows simply won't do what they need done. If they cannot afford it, what they will then do is keep dragging Windows consultant after Windows consultant in to present to them, until they stumble over an ignoramus (which is not hard) who over commits himself and promises the world. They will then burn up this guy, threatening lawsuits and everything else until they have extracted the last drop of free work they can, then they will jettison him. If they simply cannot find any ignoramuses then I've seen them try deputizing some sales guy or secretary to manage their Windows deployment, and finally a year afterwards when they have a house full of Windows XP Home edition and no server, and a giant workgroup that's falling apart, and they have lost some critical files because they wern't backing up Sally Sue's workstation and her disk crashed, then they will panic and overspend on a Windows installation. The CEO's that choose FreeBSD or Linux are the ones where even the Windows consultants they drag in all tell them "I can't do that" either because Windows cannot do it, or because the price they want it done at is so unbelievably cheap that even the ignoramus Windows consultants can see that it's impossible. My take on it is that about 90% of the FreeBSD production installs are least-cost deals. All of the ones we have ever sold to customers (and we do both Windows and UNIX projects) are like this. I'm sure that one of these days we might get a plum contract that is a high-power server that cannot be done with Windows and the customer knows it, and wants it done UNIX, it's only a matter of time. But I would be willing to bet that after they ask if we can do UNIX and we say yes, their next question will be if we can do Sun, which we can. And frankly the cost of Solaris for a server is nothing compared to the labor cost. I've frankly never seen a Linux-vs-FreeBSD deal where Linux won if the consultant wanted to use FreeBSD, and the customer was willing to deviate from Microsoft. VERY few customers are willing to deviate from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. And the ones that are willing almost always want to do it themselves, and only want us to come in and set everything up for them while they watch us over the shoulder and try to get us to teach them how to do it - because these are people who are too lazy to read the manual and learn how to do things themselves, they just want someone to set it up and teach them how to maintain it, so they can pay the minimum amount of money for the specialist, and spend the minimum amount of time learning how to do anything. > We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be > taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite obviously superior to the FreeBSD one. > > Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. > Roger you are just being impatient. You haven't defined 'big' here but if you mean 'big' in that the company has over 500 employees in an office building, then even you must know that the check signers in these companies are almost never under the age of 40. Most of them are over 40 and most of them came up through the sales ranks, and not through the technology ranks. These are people who 25 years ago were partying their way through a business degree in some university and the only thing that they really know well is how to sell their companies products. That's why they work at a big company, didn't you know? Deep down they know they are incompetents and they are too scared to go out on their own even when they could make triple the money if they really knew what they were doing. They don't really understand anything about technology infrastructure and they certainly didn't go to grade school or high school with a personal computer in the house, like kids today. And the worst part is that they matriculated during the time that in business education in this country that the 'cog in the machine' aspect of workers was totally emphasized. Their professors drilled into their heads the idea that every worker in the company must be interchangable and they deep down detest and hate the idea of there being any such thing as 'key employees' Why do you think that the current federal government administration just takes the position that workers need to retrain to the new economy, as if just retraining 100 million people every 5 years to new jobs is a good way to run the economy? This is a message that comes straight out of that generation and resonates with todays big business movers and shakers. That is why these people are doing such a terrible job mucking up American big business today, the current debacle with the airline industry is proof of that, and the amount of bankruptcies over the last 6 years has been breathtaking. Very few of these idiots are anything more than closet control freaks. To be successful in todays market you have to be able to individualize your products to what the customers in the market want, and there is no way for a big business to do that without really drastically increasing the complexity of it's business workflow. Customers today want you to stock 100 variations of your product and build all of them to order, and they want it for the same price that 20 years ago they would buy the cookie-cutter version you could sell them for. The only way to do that is to integrate technology completely in every last speck of business process that a big company does, and it takes a crew of key technicians to do that. The few big companies that have learned this aren't asking consultants what the damn operating system is going to be on the computer systems they are asking the consultants to build for them. They are telling the consultants 'this is what the end result needs to be, you either figure out how to get it for us using whatever things you want to use to get there, or get the hell out' Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is something that runs computers like winders is. And rather than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. Get them sold on the idea that your providing a -solution to their problems- not that your providing them some freebsd system that is real cool and does something they are pretty fuzzy about exactly what. If they start asking you exactly how your going to do this don't get sidetracked into a technologists conversation. In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. These CEO's really are more interested in things like when your going to be finished building the new system, who is going to train the end users, how is it going to help them make money, how much money are they going to have to pay for it upfront, and how much money they are going to have to pay for it ongoing. The salesperson should be figuring all that out with them first. You shouldn't even be talking about operating systems until you have sold them on yourself and your company, and if FreeBSD really is an objection to them, then they should like you enough so that they want you to build a Linux solution for them. Once you get them hooked and after a year or so you can switch them over to FreeBSD. Ted _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B26416A46A; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4353A43E88; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C545F5DD0C; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4049F5C99C for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA4E55F7E; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A522016A4F2; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:39 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24EBF16A4D4; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92F6643D5A; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20041229211733i92002ah50e>; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:17:35 +0000 Message-ID: <41D31EE9.5050803@nbritton.org> From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, Simon Burke , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:51 -0000 X-Original-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:17:29 -0600 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:51 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >>nbritton wrote: gain this is are target market; consultants, integrators, vars, etc. I >>bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do >>only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical >>merit alone. >> >> >> > >A var that has a thriving Linux consultancy and no FreeBSD experience >isn't going to buy into FreeBSD. The only time your going to get a >consultant with no FreeBSD experience into looking at FreeBSD is if they >can't make a go of it with their existing product line, or if they have >never done consulting before and >are just starting out. > > > > This is one of main point I'm trying to make in all of these talks. How are they ever going to know it's out there and when they do make first contact don't you think we should greet them in a professional manner? Sorry if I mangled the message a bit when I cut out all the fluff. _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD5416A46B; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFAC543E66; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 126EE5DCEA; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5565C907 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A2156AD9; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:27:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF01516A4EE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:27:40 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8025C16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:27:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ninja.terrabionic.com (ninja.terrabionic.com [213.187.181.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E671643D48; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:27:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from johann@terrabionic.com) Received: by ninja.terrabionic.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8D7633C; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:32 +0100 (CET) From: jsha To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD ninja.terrabionic.com 5.3-STABLE i386 X-Location: Bergen, Norway, Europe X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:51 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:51 -0000 --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hello. I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes and users to the rest of the world. Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it compared to other open source operating systems. 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we produce the most magnificent result? Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) Sincerely, Johann Manaf Tepstad -- j. --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByqujeF7Rq67IV2wRAlKUAKCl2+j0nGxHSCaA6vVuaKHmWS329ACg38yh cyKa7Mugay7SWji/RX22aIk= =zolu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6924716A470; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8EB843E7B; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D6D385DD03; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 922DA5C8B1 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:52:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F4E156267; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F9616A4D0; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:39 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61A0F16A540; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B840343D5D; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228125011i9100rfdmee>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:50:12 +0000 Message-ID: <41D1567F.9000901@nbritton.org> From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Simon Burke Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:52 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:50:07 -0600 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:52 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org >>[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' >>Vetterberg >>Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM >>To: Simon Burke >>Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; >>freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org >>Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? >> >> >> >> > > >>Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the >>flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to >>have today. >> >> > >That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it >because it works better than most commercial operating systems let >alone most operating systems. > > It does, and that is why I use it. Amiga was like that too. > > >>But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to >>improve the website. Why? >>Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar >>and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows >>why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid >>stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as >>a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming >>towards the nearest linux advocate instead. >> >> > >Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about >a product website. > Why are you even talking to CEOs? This is a job for CTOs and/or CIOs, and if a company didn't have one you wound then be talking to a CFO or COO. >What they care about is: 'can what I need done >be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me >in to you' > > d) support. e) what everyone else uses. Most companys only care about d and e as windows is nether a, b, or c... umm how'd it go... "No one ever got fired for buying IBM" >I've frankly never seen a Linux-vs-FreeBSD deal where Linux won >if the consultant wanted to use FreeBSD, > You assuming the consultant even knows about FreeBSD, most do not. >and the customer was willing >to deviate from Microsoft. > Know your market, we are not trying to get them to switch to FreeBSD from Windows, we are the alternative to the alternative for a company that has already decide to go with the alternative instead of windows. > VERY few customers are willing to deviate >from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. > On the desktop yes, but where not talking about desktops here, where talking about servers and Linux has its claws all over the server market. > > >>We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be >>taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! >> >> >> > >I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue >that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite obviously >superior to the FreeBSD one. > > Now thats just asinine. > >Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these >CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big >words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and >even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is >something that runs computers like winders is. > I'm sorry to say but anyone outside of IT/IS/MIS has no clue what UNIX is. at best they mistake it for Linux. >And rather >than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice >new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be >big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. > I agree with you about the megabit and bytes but you have gone to far to the other extreme, they are not stupid, the CEO's job is to keep the company afloat not know what a megabyte is, this is why we have CTOs and CIOs. > >In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson >that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. > this is a good idea, I'd have to agree with him. >You shouldn't even >be talking about operating systems until you have sold them on >yourself and your company, > Again this is are target market; consultants, integrators, vars, etc. I bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical merit alone. I want a part of the linux pie! _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E9D16A46D; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A901A43E76; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 99C715DCF7; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F065C99E for ; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 06:20:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B28115564D; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:20:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3258A16A4D6; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:20:47 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA5916A4CE; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:20:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl (fia148-72.dsl.hccnet.nl [62.251.72.148]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B331943D3F; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:20:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from colin@kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl) Received: from localhost (colin@localhost) by kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iBQEKbh02406; Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:20:37 +0100 (CET) From: "Colin J. Raven" To: Nikolas Britton In-Reply-To: <41CD7D41.4070206@nbritton.org> Message-ID: References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> <41CD7D41.4070206@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:53 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:20:36 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:53 -0000 On Dec 25, Nikolas Britton responded thusly: > Colin J. Raven wrote: > >> On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav launched this into the bitstream: >>=20 >>> Chris writes: >>>=20 >>>> One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >>>> drive the car. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently >>> claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. >>=20 >>=20 >> One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of t= he=20 >> engine. > > > One should not buy a car without at least looking under the hood, kicking= the=20 > tires, and taking it for a test drive. > One should not need to strike tires with one's footwear in order to=20 determine the suitability of the vehicle. Regards, -Colin -- Colin J. Raven 3:19PM up 4:20, 2 users, load averages: 1.76, 1.63, 1.59 Today's Random Silliness: "There's a disturbance in the force, OK...who didn't flush the toilet?" _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF8B16A48B; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CEC843E71; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6FCDF5DCEF; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 688F75C97C for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:28:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C294156210; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:28:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E41316A4D4; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:28:49 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E3016A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:28:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mailout06.sul.t-online.com (mailout06.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F53443D41; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:28:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from fwd11.aul.t-online.de by mailout06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1ChoYg-0001VZ-01; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:28:38 +0100 Received: from Andro-Beta.Leidinger.net (bKaf0MZdYeQPMQMJB40AhL4GJu8YPhTwvnZAlAp6i7v7NjqgEgsd8H@[217.229.222.40]) by fmrl11.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 1ChoYM-0Wvk8W0; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:28:18 +0100 Received: from Magellan.Leidinger.net (Magellan.Leidinger.net [192.168.1.1]) iBOCS9tj059543; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:28:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) From: Alexander Leidinger To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, jsha Message-ID: <20041224132825.023fc5ee@Magellan.Leidinger.net> In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.13 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd6.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ID: bKaf0MZdYeQPMQMJB40AhL4GJu8YPhTwvnZAlAp6i7v7NjqgEgsd8H@t-dialin.net X-TOI-MSGID: 50e9a8d7-c00a-455f-8a4b-268e48bfb6f7 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:53 -0000 X-Original-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:28:25 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:53 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100 jsha wrote: > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. You know that you write this a t a time where a lot of people are visiting their family and don't have email access or don't read the mailinglists? At least this is the case for a lot of FreeBSD committers. > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. Even if a lot of committers won't/can't answer now: there are people which agree with you (maybe not all, but you know what we say about bikesheds, don't you?). > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks We had an discussion a while ago about this. The way I understand the conclusion is: we have a mascot, but no logo (we may use our mascot like other people use a logo ATM). And we want to keep the mascot. We may be interested in a logo, but a logo is a bikeshed topic. Since we're more developers than designers, nobody stepped up to proceed on this topic (at least I don't know about it if someone proceeded further). If you want to put your energy into creating a logo, there will be people which listen to you. > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. This is a little bit harsh. I suggest to stay with facts and suggestions. Keep such rants for your personal pleasure, we don't need them. > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. The doc team is progressing in this direction... at least if I read the content between the lines of commit logs right. I think they try to separate the content from the design at the moment (the prerequisite to use the full power of CSS). I suggest to get in contact with them to not reinvent the wheel. > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. Yes. AFAIK the Freesbie project is integrating the bsdinstaller (the installer DragonFly uses) ATM. We will see how this works out and depending on this there may be interest to integrate the installer into FreeBSD. > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. Even if there are some people which don't think this is needed, I like this idea. In may day to day job I'm working as a consultant, so I know where/how/why this may be beneficial (or not). > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? We can't guarantee that any of your work will be adopted, but I don't think your work will be ignored (be prepared to get a lot of critique... positive and negative one). Bye, Alexander. -- The best things in life are free, but the expensive ones are still worth a look. http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net GPG fingerprint = C518 BC70 E67F 143F BE91 3365 79E2 9C60 B006 3FE7 _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C43DD16A48E; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D8843E7D; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 33C2A5DCA2; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 038FE5C9BC for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E4356A1B; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3378416A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:09 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BCEB16A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C13D643D45; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041228024602i9100rffrre>; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 02:46:03 +0000 Message-ID: <41D0C8E6.2040609@nbritton.org> From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Pawlak References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> <6.0.3.0.2.20041227193622.02850750@pop-server.wi.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20041227193622.02850750@pop-server.wi.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Simon Burke Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:55 -0000 X-Original-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:45:58 -0600 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:55 -0000 Frank Pawlak wrote: > This is one of several issues that have been brought up on an almost > periodic basis for the past several years. There have been several > attempts by various folks, including a rather ambitious one by this > author, and all have died because of severe lack of interest. It has > been a few years since I have posted to this news group but my advise > to you is to give it up. You will only meet with much frustration, > apathy, and something along the lines of " if you don't like it fix it > yourself". I say we keep on rehashing this everyday until someone does it just to shut us up. ;-) Has there ever been an attempt at forming a group so us like minded people "can" fix it ourselfs? > > I consider this very unfortunate, because has some commercial > properties that could well be more attractive than other OS'S. The > development team just is not interested in this issue. I have fought > many a battle in years past over marketing issues with members of the > core team and others. OK, everyone lets see you flame throwers..... > Wes Petters, Jordan Hubbard, are you out there....;-) > > Frank > > At 06:57 PM 12/27/2004, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >> Simon Burke wrote: >> [snip] >> >>>> 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the >>>> FreeBSD >>>> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its >>>> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a >>>> redesign >>>> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without >>>> being >>>> ugly. >>> >>> >>> Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to >>> do. Also i actually like how it looks. >>> A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all >>> dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to >>> navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics >>> really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they >>> would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you >>> have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. >> >> >> This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the >> problem. >> Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the >> flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to >> have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to >> improve the website. Why? >> Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or >> similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation >> knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid >> stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as >> a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming >> towards the nearest linux advocate instead. >> We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be >> taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about >> it! >> >> [snip] >> >>>> 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead >>>> available to all that support this project. >>> >>> >>> I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont >>> understand >> >> >> Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. >> >> -- >> R >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 > > > _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:55 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3743616A41C; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 142EB43E4F; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9AC515DCD2; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A7185C8B1 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 15:09:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1417255E77; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:09:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B631616A4DA; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:09:53 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319FF16A4D0; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:09:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D3BD43D46; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:09:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id C59B5530C; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:09:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 97A485308; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:08:45 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 08838B874; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:08:44 +0100 (CET) To: Chris References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) In-Reply-To: <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> (racerx@makeworld.com's message of "Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:53:20 -0600") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Nikolas Britton , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:55 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:08:44 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:55 -0000 Chris writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You > > apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this > > discussion. > Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was > then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my > bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. CSS is a W3 standard, but was originally designed by the CTO of Opera Software, a company which is one of Microsoft's more vocal detractors and which recently received a large settlement in a lawsuit regarding Microsoft's (alleged) intentional efforts to make their website render poorly in Opera's browser. IE handles CSS1 badly, and CSS2 almost not at all. Calling it a Windows thing severely misrepresents the facts. > One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to > drive the car. One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:56 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6610F16A498; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B297843E7F; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5045D5DCC8; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8CF5C9C1 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:44:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF94356B35; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:44:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B476316A4D5; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:44:09 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DC1816A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:44:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D5943D5E; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:44:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fpawlak@wi.rr.com) Received: from john.wi.rr.com (CPE-24-160-252-207.wi.rr.com [24.160.252.207]) iBS1huIN014267; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:43:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20041227193622.02850750@pop-server.wi.rr.com> X-Sender: fpawlak@pop-server.wi.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , Simon Burke From: Frank Pawlak In-Reply-To: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-235E4711 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:56 -0000 X-Original-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:44:39 -0600 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:56 -0000 This is one of several issues that have been brought up on an almost periodic basis for the past several years. There have been several attempts by various folks, including a rather ambitious one by this author, and all have died because of severe lack of interest. It has been a few years since I have posted to this news group but my advise to you is to give it up. You will only meet with much frustration, apathy, and something along the lines of " if you don't like it fix it yourself". I consider this very unfortunate, because has some commercial properties that could well be more attractive than other OS'S. The development team just is not interested in this issue. I have fought many a battle in years past over marketing issues with members of the core team and others. OK, everyone lets see you flame throwers..... Wes Petters, Jordan Hubbard, are you out there....;-) Frank At 06:57 PM 12/27/2004, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: >Simon Burke wrote: >[snip] >>>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD >>> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its >>> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign >>> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being >>> ugly. >> >>Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to >>do. Also i actually like how it looks. >>A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all >>dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to >>navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics >>really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they >>would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you >>have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > >This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. >Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy >installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. >But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the >website. Why? >Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and >tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They >might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the >lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but >one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest >linux advocate instead. >We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be taken >seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! > >[snip] >>>4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead >>> available to all that support this project. >> >>I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont >>understand > >Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. > >-- >R >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:56 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C7F516A48F; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B159C43E69; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1F2105DC99; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B30BC5C900 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:53:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16A85616F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:52:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61AE816A4E5; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:52:48 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6046E16A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:52:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0026143D3F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:52:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E8A60ED; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:52:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 53695-07; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:52:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA2A60E4; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:52:40 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041218) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.0 (20041102) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Nikolas Britton , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:56 -0000 X-Original-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:53:20 -0600 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:56 -0000 Dag-Erling Smψrgrav wrote: > Giorgos Keramidas writes: > >>On 2004-12-23 23:02, Chris wrote: >> >>>Nikolas Britton wrote: >>> >>>>2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site >>>>with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of >>>>Cascading Style Sheets?) >>> >>>CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? > Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You > apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this > discussion. Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to drive the car. -- Best regards, Chris You can't expect to hit the jackpot if you don't put a few nickles in the machine. _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B93D16A49A; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C8443E80; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 81A225DCDC; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E3675C9BB for ; Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B73A56AB5; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:52:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9389616A4F2; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:52:40 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E034016A4CE; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:51:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 151B243D39; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:51:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBS0pe84055972; Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:51:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <41D0AF75.6040500@401.cx> From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simon Burke References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0453-0, 12/27/2004), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:57 -0000 X-Original-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:57:25 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:57 -0000 Simon Burke wrote: [snip] >>2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD >> website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its >> purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign >> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being >> ugly. > > > Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to > do. Also i actually like how it looks. > A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all > dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to > navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics > really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they > would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you > have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! [snip] >>4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead >> available to all that support this project. > > > I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont > understand Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big corporation. -- R _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8442616A481; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5212843E52; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BDBB25DCDB; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4CFA5C9A7 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:10:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 442DC5732F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:09:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD1416A517; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:09:46 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D4716A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:09:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C15943D2F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:09:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041224060933i9100rfpj2e>; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:09:34 +0000 Message-ID: <41CBB299.4020707@nbritton.org> From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:57 -0000 X-Original-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:09:29 -0600 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:57 -0000 Chris wrote: > Nikolas Britton wrote: > >> >>>> From a business perspective we look amateurish. >>> >>> > > I have held off thus far... > >>> >> I REALLY REALLY agree with this point, from the prospective of an >> outsider the website and "Image" conveys a real lack of >> professionalism, which is not true. > > > No you don't - would you prefer multi-colored windows? A penguin? What? hmm?, fuck no I hate penguins (esp Linux ones), there's nothing wrong with chucky > Are we looking into the geo-political correctness as in the like as > the NetBSD project took? No, just a better image in the enterprises and data centers of the world. > >> I'm looking at the start page for FreeBSD right now and here are the >> things I do not like about it (please don't be offended if I step on >> toe's and ego's, I am only trying to better FreeBSD): > > > Here we go - Let's just re engineer life as we know it. Lets also not > offend gays, users of color, males, females, users of religion, users > of no religion, users of Windows, users of Linux, users of DOS, users > of NetWare, etc, etc, etc. How did you extrapolate that from what I said? I guess I did step your toe's and ego, I was only trying to give constructive criticism. > >> 1. The "FreeBSD" logo is crap, not beastie (he's a keeper!!!, I'll >> hunt you down and do bad things to you if you take him away!), Just >> the black wannabe (and badly done) 3D effect "FreeBSD" part, really, >> I hate it. Redo the whole logo in photoshop with a bold, antialiased >> modern web font: (Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Century Gothic, etc.) >> and forget the whole 3D effect as that is so 90s. Generally all of >> your logo designs are unprofessional (the logos at the bottom of the >> page: FreeBSD MALL, UseNix, Daemon News, and Powered by FreeBSD for >> example) > > > You will do no such thing - see above, read the threads on the NetBSD > site as to the redoing of the "logo" I DON'T want it "redesigned" (like NetBSD did) just re-done... same logo just better looking, image is everything you know. > >> 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site >> with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of >> Cascading Style Sheets?) > > > CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? No, it's a web standard: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/ also it would be a good idea to look into XHTML: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ > >> 3. The color scheme is not "complementary" anyone who has been to art >> school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read >> up about basic color theory here: >> http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever >> here of Cascading Style Sheets??) > > > Guess what mate - most of us are NOT into art. Yes I can tell, I was trying to offer some helpfull tips > Get real. Deal with the OS, not the look and feel of the site. Do I > really care if a design has passion blue opposed to blue? Yes > > Do you really thing techies are THAT into pastels? I don't like pastels ether, to girly, I like bold and neutral colors. > If you want to re design something (Actually - is sounds like you have > been watching way too much TLC) then get a gig on Monster House. I watch the history channel most of the time or the courses offered by the local college on channel 20 , I really think TLC has gone down hill with all the trading spaces type shows, though page is cute. It's just that I've always had a good eye for this type of stuff. > > >> 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is >> unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII >> beastie the default. > > > Who cares?!?! It's resource friendly tho... That is true. > >> I have no real issues with the layout of the site and it would be >> nice if the installer was more user friendly but I am content with >> the way it is, maybe you should change the color scheme of the >> installer to match the website? > > > Snip - not worth repeating. > >> FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. > > > Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. If thats what it takes to get FreeBSD out of obscurity and into the enterprise then yes I will, just look at what apple did with BSD and mozilla did with firefox, I don't want to see FreeBSD (or the other BSDs) die into obscurity as I really like them. _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:10:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BC9A16A4A3; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:10:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB01A43E77; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A66E55DCF9; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503F95C8B1 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 06:46:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E02F55886; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D57F016A4D5; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:36 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4851C16A4CE; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99BD043D46; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041225144626i9100rfuvme>; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:33 +0000 Message-ID: <41CD7D41.4070206@nbritton.org> From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Colin J. Raven" References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:58 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 08:46:25 -0600 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:10:58 -0000 Colin J. Raven wrote: > On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Smψrgrav launched this into the bitstream: > >> Chris writes: >> >>> One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >>> drive the car. >> >> >> One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently >> claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. > > > One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of > the engine. One should not buy a car without at least looking under the hood, kicking the tires, and taking it for a test drive. Merry Christmas, Nikolas _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:11:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6AB016A41C; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:11:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 882B043E74; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 88D505DCF4; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED735C991 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:26:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3932D56CC7; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:25:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AAD016A4EF; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:25:50 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1856E16A4CE; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:25:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47FF43D2F; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:25:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7886E60ED; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:25:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 54454-04; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:25:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA12060E4; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:25:35 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <41CCC1B7.4090008@makeworld.com> From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041218) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.0 (20041102) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Nikolas Britton , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:11:23 -0000 X-Original-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:26:15 -0600 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:11:23 -0000 Dag-Erling Smψrgrav wrote: > Chris writes: > >>Dag-Erling Smψrgrav wrote: >> >>>Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You >>>apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this >>>discussion. >> >>Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was >>then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my >>bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. > > > CSS is a W3 standard, but was originally designed by the CTO of Opera > Software, a company which is one of Microsoft's more vocal detractors > and which recently received a large settlement in a lawsuit regarding > Microsoft's (alleged) intentional efforts to make their website render > poorly in Opera's browser. IE handles CSS1 badly, and CSS2 almost not > at all. Calling it a Windows thing severely misrepresents the facts. > > >>One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >>drive the car. > > > One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently > claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. > > DES Technically - I didn't criticize. Allow me to post verbatim; "CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing?" Doesn't look like it to me - looks more like a query or two. But that's just me tho - perhaps you read something else? Perhaps too much eggnog? Perhaps not enough? -- Best regards, Chris _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:11:38 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03CA016A420; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:11:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E88FA43E82; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9AAC15DCE3; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8B85C9AA for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:41:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF7956999; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:41:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D47516A4D9; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:41:01 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E7D16A4CF; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:40:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C2043D54; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:40:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBTIen84089866; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:40:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <41D2FB92.9020508@401.cx> From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0453-0, 12/27/2004), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Simon Burke Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:11:38 -0000 X-Original-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:46:42 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:11:38 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- From: >> owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org >> [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger >> 'Rocky' Vetterberg Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM To: >> Simon Burke Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org; >> freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; >> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual >> Identity: Outdated? >> >> >> Simon Burke wrote: [snip] >> >>>> 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of >>>> the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. >>>> Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight >>>> to the point. But >> >> a redesign >> >>>> could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- >>>> without being ugly. >>> >>> >>> Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its >>> supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of >>> people have strong feelings about all these all singing all >>> dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and >>> easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If >>> the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people >>> who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but >>> either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to >>> look at all the nice pretty sites. >> >> This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand >> the problem. > > > Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD > integration in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand > the problem. > > >> Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all >> the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros >> seems to have today. > > > That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like > it because it works better than most commercial operating systems > let alone most operating systems. "The" reason? Like there was only one reason to like an os? I like FreeBSD due to its lack of bells and whistles, but I also like it due to its stability, performance, ease of use and license, among many other reasons. Maybe I should have made that more clear, I do not wish to come across as a guy that favours an os based on one reason alone. >> But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve >> the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom >> full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD >> in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts >> about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast >> performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look >> at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest >> linux advocate instead. > > Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle > about a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need > done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't > lock me in to you' I think we have a missunderstanding here. I already work for a big corporation. When I said that I was trying to sell FreeBSD, I meant that I was trying to get the company that I work for to chose FreeBSD over some other product. Im not a consultant of any kind, Im a fulltime employed technician trying to keep my employers network up and running. > FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. > Linux meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C > and usually meets B and doesen't usually meet A. > > The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO > and I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source > provider, then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm > locked into you. Once that happens my thought processes are that > your going to become very expensive to me - why, because there's no > competition to you out there. I'm not going to do that unless I > trust you implicitly. And there's very few business people I am > ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless your a son or > daughter, and even then I may not. > > You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk > thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't > understand what your selling, they don't understand how to > integrate technology into their systems, they don't even understand > their current system. As I explained earlier, Im not selling anything. We are several technicians at my company, some of us prefer BSD while others prefer linux, windows, sun or whatever the flavour of the day is. Everytime we get a new bunch of servers or a new task needs to be done, there is a religious war before we decide what os to use. Most of the time, the board wants a say in decisions like this, and BSD almost always loses this, due to a very unproffesional image. Since the company already has the expertise inhouse, the hardware has been ordered and everything is paid, they dont give a shit about price. When I tell them that BSD can do everything they want and do it good, they listen. When I tell them that its free, they listen but they dont really care. When the linux guys makes exactly the same claims and also is able to back it up with proffesional looking websites with success-stories cluttered all over them, they usually decide to go with linux and goes to lunch. [snip] >> We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to >> be taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do >> something about it! >> > I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue > that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite > obviously superior to the FreeBSD one. As I said, Im not a consultant or anything, Im just an employee. I do not have a website of my own. >> Clearly, you have not tried to "sell" FreeBSD to a big >> corporation. >> > Roger you are just being impatient. You haven't defined 'big' here "Big" as in 6000 employees spread across a few european countries. > but if you mean 'big' in that the company has over 500 employees > in an office building, then even you must know that the check > signers in these companies are almost never under the age of 40. > Most of them are over 40 and most of them came up through the sales > ranks, and not through the technology ranks. These are people who > 25 years ago were partying their way through a business degree in > some university and the only thing that they really know well is > how to sell their companies products. That's why they work at a > big company, didn't you know? Deep down they know they are > incompetents and they are too scared to go out on their own even > when they could make triple the money if they really knew what they > were doing. > > They don't really understand anything about technology > infrastructure and they certainly didn't go to grade school or high > school with a personal computer in the house, like kids today. > And the worst part is that they matriculated during the time that > in business education in this country that the 'cog in the machine' > aspect of workers was totally emphasized. Their professors drilled > into their heads the idea that every worker in the company must be > interchangable and they deep down detest and hate the idea of there > being any such thing as 'key employees' > > Why do you think that the current federal government administration > just takes the position that workers need to retrain to the new > economy, as if just retraining 100 million people every 5 years to > new jobs is a good way to run the economy? This is a message that > comes straight out of that generation and resonates with todays big > business movers and shakers. That is why these people are doing > such a terrible job mucking up American big business today, the > current debacle with the airline industry is proof of that, and the > amount of bankruptcies over the last 6 years has been breathtaking. > Very few of these idiots are anything more than closet control > freaks. > > To be successful in todays market you have to be able to > individualize your products to what the customers in the market > want, and there is no way for a big business to do that without > really drastically increasing the complexity of it's business > workflow. Customers today want you to stock 100 variations of your > product and build all of them to order, and they want it for the > same price that 20 years ago they would buy the cookie-cutter > version you could sell them for. The only way to do that is to > integrate technology completely in every last speck of business > process that a big company does, and it takes a crew of key > technicians to do that. The few big companies that have learned > this aren't asking consultants what the damn operating system is > going to be on the computer systems they are asking the consultants > to build for them. They are telling the consultants 'this is what > the end result needs to be, you either figure out how to get it > for us using whatever things you want to use to get there, or get > the hell out' > > Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these > CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big > words. Instead of using "FreeBSD" use "UNIX" It's shorter and > even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is > something that runs computers like winders is. And rather than > telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice new server > is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be big, and fast > and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. Get them sold on the idea > that your providing a -solution to their problems- not that your > providing them some freebsd system that is real cool and does > something they are pretty fuzzy about exactly what. If they start > asking you exactly how your going to do this don't get sidetracked > into a technologists conversation. I advocate a more proffesional looking image, and you shoot me down and then tells me I need more bells and whistles in my presentations? Im confused! My arguments to improve FreeBSD's image are almost identical to the ones you listed above. For all I care the firstpage of freebsd.org could be a big picture of Schwartznegger with a BSD tattoe on his biceps, but try to suggest even a change of font on the site and people freak out. > > In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson > that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. These > CEO's really are more interested in things like when your going to > be finished building the new system, who is going to train the end > users, how is it going to help them make money, how much money are > they going to have to pay for it upfront, and how much money they > are going to have to pay for it ongoing. The salesperson should be > figuring all that out with them first. You shouldn't even be > talking about operating systems until you have sold them on > yourself and your company, and if FreeBSD really is an objection to > them, then they should like you enough so that they want you to > build a Linux solution for them. Once you get them hooked and > after a year or so you can switch them over to FreeBSD. > I could be wrong, but I think we are suggesting basically the same thing, just on different places. You seem to think that I should cover up FreeBSD's amateurish look by creating a protective shell of fancy words and presentations. I suggest that we put the energy on actually fixing the image, and thereby eliminating the need of a shell. Unfortunally, I have seen this discussion go down so many times by now that I already knows how it ends. The people that tries to make a difference is scared away by the "dont touch my website" crowd. I will continue to advocate the use of FreeBSD, with or without help from the official website, but Im still hoping that someday maybe people will realize that not all decisions are made based upon the quality of the source, but on general appearance as well. -- R _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:11:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B39316A433; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:11:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFC0D43E85; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BB5C55DD09; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F62A5C9A7 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4377055ABB; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:22:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFCF716A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:22:54 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1AA16A4CE; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:22:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B20343D1D; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:22:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iBT8Mfv87971; Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:22:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Nikolas Britton" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <41D1567F.9000901@nbritton.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS autolearn=no version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, Simon Burke , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:11:54 -0000 X-Original-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:22:41 -0800 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:11:54 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Nikolas Britton > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:50 AM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; > freebsd-www@freebsd.org; freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Simon Burke > Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? > > > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > >What they care about is: 'can what I need done > >be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me > >in to you' > > > > > d) support. e) what everyone else uses. Most companys only care about d > and e as windows is nether a, b, or c... umm how'd it go... "No one ever > got fired for buying IBM" > If you think about it, d and e are the same thing as a and c. What does support constitute to the average CEO? If you asked them they would say that it's the ability to pick up the phone and get the problem fixed, right? Well guess what - you can do that with FreeBSD, there's paid incident support here: http://www.bsdmall.com/fbsdpay4tech.html about the same cost as the Microsoft offering, as a matter of fact. If you tell them that, they will sit back, scratch their head, and eventually say something along the lines of 'well I can just call any joe blow in the yellow pages for windows questions' And they are right. Because there's lots of so-called 'windows consultants' out there who are to put it bluntly, so piss-poor that they will give you gobs of free-but-worthless support over the phone in an attempt to get an appointment with you for some billable time. And if that doesen't work well, my kid brother has a computer that he plays Doom on all the time so he must be a computer sexpert, right? The people selling commercial FreeBSD support want a lot of money - but in exchange you get support that is actually worth what you pay for. The people selling commercial Windows support are all over the map - some do want a lot of money for good support, others will take a little bit of money for crap support. The CEOs that don't know any better figure that the cheap support is as good as the expensive support - so they then classify the expensive support (both windows and freebsd) in the 'nonexistent' category and then tell you with a straight face that freebsd is not supported. Now, if your talking hardware support - then please, yes there's lots of cheapskates running offices who are buying winprinters so they can save $50, we know that. And paying double for the ink cartridges, yes I know that one too. And as for the every one else uses it - where do you see this most? It's in the companies that don't want to spend a cent on training people. They want to hire their secretaries out of the local 1 year business prep school and put them to work writing letters with Microsoft Word, because that is all the business prep school trains them to do. What is missed of course is that since those sorts of people are only good for plunking down in front of a Windows XP system with Microsoft Word on it, after those people get finished writing your Microsoft Word document, they spend the last 6 hours of the day downloading new screensavers, changing the fonts on their computers, instant messaging their friends, etc. If instead you plunked them down in front of a FreeBSD system running XFree, after they got done with writing the memo you wanted them to write, they would be unable to idle away time on the computer, and you might actually get some useful work out of them. If you don't believe this take a look at the Microsoft desktop offerings. Microsoft is belatedly waking up to this and ever since NT, a skilled Windows admin can go in and lock down every scrap of anything on all his Windows NT, 2K, or XP desktops so that the secretaries can't do anything other than what their job is. And more and more companies are starting to do this, or at least try doing it. > Know your market, we are not trying to get them to switch to FreeBSD > from Windows, we are the alternative to the alternative for a company > that has already decide to go with the alternative instead of windows. > you might be. But your fighting the hardest battle. Unlike you I'm out there showing them how many tens of thousands of dollars they are going to save by not buying a new server that is running XP Pro Server, and Microsoft Exchange, and all the other nasty proprietary business software that Microsoft has designed to leech onto your company. > > VERY few customers are willing to deviate > >from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. > > > On the desktop yes, but where not talking about desktops here, where > talking about servers and Linux has its claws all over the server market. > The Linux people are also talking about desktops. In fact, they are concentrating more on the desktops now than on the servers, that is why the Linux distros all have GUI installers and the like. When was the last time you installed Linux? Today's Linux is designed to be installed by a non-technical user, same as Windows. > > > >I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue > >that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite > obviously > >superior to the FreeBSD one. > > > > > Now thats just asinine. > Not it is not. He is trying to sell himself and his company. Why in the heck shouldn't he be directing his customers to himself and his companies website? Geeze - the FreeBSD website not only has FreeBSD info it has lists of OTHER consultants. Why on earth would a consultant making a presentation want to direct the customer to a site that would give the customer a list of competitors? > > > I'm sorry to say but anyone outside of IT/IS/MIS has no clue what UNIX > is. at best they mistake it for Linux. > Then don't even mention UNIX or Windows at all. > >And rather > >than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice > >new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be > >big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. > > > I agree with you about the megabit and bytes but you have gone to far to > the other extreme, they are not stupid, the CEO's job is to keep the > company afloat not know what a megabyte is, this is why we have CTOs and > CIOs. > Exactly - which is why as I said before (and you cut) the sales presentation is going to be a dud if all you do is sit there talking about how great this FreeBSD product is. When you go into one of these sales deals the CEO should be told exactly TWO things: that you can solve his problem, and how much it's going to cost. Everything else in the presentation is simply a lead in for these two things. The problem is that too many people that do these kinds of presentations don't understand that what they are selling is themselves. They think that "I'm going to try to go into that there customer and sell them a new server" Nowhere in their thought processes is the idea that they are there to find out what the customers problem is exactly, and sell THEMSELVES as the solution to it. I've seen a lot of these presentations and been in a lot where the customer tells the presenter what his problem is and the first words out of the presenters mouth is 'well you need a new server' It's like you might as well leave then. The presenter should be saying 'well you don't have enough space/you don't have enough speed/ your network has no virus protection/you don't have a database/etc/etc/etc and WE CAN FIX that. In short, the presenter needs to regurgitate the customers problem, and tell the customer they can fix it, and how much it is gonna cost. Period. It's not the presenters job to tell the customer how they are going to fix it - if the customer knew that, the presenter wouldn't even be there. > Again this is are target market; consultants, integrators, vars, etc. I > bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do > only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical > merit alone. > A var that has a thriving Linux consultancy and no FreeBSD experience isn't going to buy into FreeBSD. The only time your going to get a consultant with no FreeBSD experience into looking at FreeBSD is if they can't make a go of it with their existing product line, or if they have never done consulting before and are just starting out. The var/integrator/consultancy market has a certain amount of attrition every year, companies form and break up every year. There's always new people coming into the market and old people leaving it. Some of those new consultants are going to have prior FreeBSD experience and will want to leverage that. The support they need from the FreeBSD Project is stuff like my book, good tech support assistance, and overall a strong stable OS. Ted _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:12:00 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B0316A420; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:11:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CC6243E79; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:09:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B279C5DCFD; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74AC15C981 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:33:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33AE0557B9; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:33:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D16916A4D5; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:33:22 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6926C16A4CE; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:33:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl (fia148-72.dsl.hccnet.nl [62.251.72.148]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACAA843D45; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:33:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from colin@kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl) Received: from localhost (colin@localhost) by kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iBP77M600426; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 08:07:22 +0100 (CET) From: "Colin J. Raven" To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Nikolas Britton , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:12:00 -0000 X-Original-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 08:07:21 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:12:00 -0000 On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav launched this into the bitstream: > Chris writes: > >> One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >> drive the car. > > One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently > claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of=20 the engine. _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 00:12:00 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D85CF16A422; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:12:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0694543E3D; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:08:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 01B105DCC1; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D797A5C900 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:54:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30ECF56285; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:54:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83B1B16A4D7; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:54:36 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74EF16A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:54:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C360343D58 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:54:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bdaniel7@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z35so116513rne for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:54:31 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=MvORpV7z2gniQZSx2P/HR7rVn2vOxqzlh6fiuDbpk/6hF1ovLVKoEyyDub83qcyWSlMPW8YgTWJkvOdiQAXz9mou6WRFG/eeSCpxcxbCiHfAuktHtMlwUrrHVZya8OScqLH3iPUEZRZIXwhmCQgn4IrLcgVmLChjcaplESkaPfs= Received: by 10.39.3.42 with SMTP id f42mr476819rni; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.104.1 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:54:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> From: Daniel Blendea To: jsha In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DEAR_SOMETHING, RCVD_BY_IP autolearn=no version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Level: Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Reply-To: Daniel Blendea List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:12:01 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:54:31 +0200 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:12:01 -0000 1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if the logo would change; Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. 2. again, bu**s**it, the colors are not ugly at ALL, - and i'm not a fan of site's color theme coz i prefer blue-ish colors - again, think about identity...whenever one FreeBSD'er sees the logo/colors - on software packages, media and the like - he will know that product is related to FreeBSD 3. please install FreeBSD couple of times, and afterwards you'll get to install it eyes- closed.. thank you for reading and please excuse my excited tone, Daniel On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100, jsha wrote: > > Hello. > > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. > > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. > > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. > > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. > > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? > > Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) > > Sincerely, > Johann Manaf Tepstad > -- > j. > > > _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 01:03:46 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E76F16B875; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 01:03:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053C7454ED; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 00:55:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 107205F59D; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:12:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ps@mu.org Delivered-To: ps@mu.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by elvis.mu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 343255C9DA for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 03:42:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6795589D; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:41:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FA5916A4CE; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:41:54 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-bugs@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A11616A4CE; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:41:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4988A43D39; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:41:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ceri@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (ceri@localhost [127.0.0.1]) iA8BfoUF018779; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:41:50 GMT (envelope-from ceri@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from ceri@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id iA8BfowP018775; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:41:50 GMT (envelope-from ceri) From: Ceri Davies Message-Id: <200411081141.iA8BfowP018775@freefall.freebsd.org> To: ceri@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.0 (2004-09-13) on elvis.mu.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.0 X-Spam-Level: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 11:34:37 +0000 Cc: Subject: Re: kern/73646: I/O performance: with/without MEMIO option X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 01:03:48 -0000 X-Original-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:41:50 GMT X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 01:03:48 -0000 Synopsis: I/O performance: with/without MEMIO option Responsible-Changed-From-To: freebsd-advocacy->freebsd-bugs Responsible-Changed-By: ceri Responsible-Changed-When: Mon Nov 8 11:41:20 GMT 2004 Responsible-Changed-Why: Not an advocacy PR. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=73646 _______________________________________________ freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-bugs To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-bugs-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 3 16:50:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2874F16A41C for ; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:50:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEAFB43D48 for ; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:50:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (gnats@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j63GoKbS073286 for ; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:50:20 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id j63GoK0Q073285; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:50:20 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:50:20 GMT Resent-Message-Id: <200507031650.j63GoK0Q073285@freefall.freebsd.org> Resent-From: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org (GNATS Filer) Resent-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Resent-Reply-To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org, "Alejandro Pulver" Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E556316A41C for ; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:41:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from alejandro@varnet.biz) Received: from relay02.pair.com (relay02.pair.com [209.68.5.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9204643D45 for ; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:41:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from alejandro@varnet.biz) Received: (qmail 63473 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 16:41:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phobos.mars.bsd) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 16:41:38 -0000 Message-Id: <1120409015.0@phobos.mars.bsd> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:43:35 -0300 From: "Alejandro Pulver" To: "FreeBSD gnats submit" X-Send-Pr-Version: gtk-send-pr 0.4.4 Cc: Subject: advocacy/82934: New port: multimedia/toxine - Text user interface using the xine library X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 16:50:21 -0000 >Number: 82934 >Category: advocacy >Synopsis: New port: multimedia/toxine - Text user interface using the xine library >Confidential: no >Severity: non-critical >Priority: low >Responsible: freebsd-advocacy >State: open >Quarter: >Keywords: >Date-Required: >Class: sw-bug >Submitter-Id: current-users >Arrival-Date: Sun Jul 03 16:50:20 GMT 2005 >Closed-Date: >Last-Modified: >Originator: Alejandro Pulver >Release: FreeBSD 5.4-RELEASE i386 >Organization: >Environment: System: FreeBSD 5.4-RELEASE #0: Sat May 21 12:14:47 ART 2005 root@phobos.mars.bsd:/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/ATHLON-ALE >Description: >How-To-Repeat: >Fix: --- toxine.shar begins here --- # This is a shell archive. Save it in a file, remove anything before # this line, and then unpack it by entering "sh file". Note, it may # create directories; files and directories will be owned by you and # have default permissions. # # This archive contains: # # toxine # toxine/Makefile # toxine/pkg-descr # toxine/pkg-plist # toxine/distinfo # echo c - toxine mkdir -p toxine > /dev/null 2>&1 echo x - toxine/Makefile sed 's/^X//' >toxine/Makefile << 'END-of-toxine/Makefile' X# New ports collection makefile for: multimedia/toxine X# Date created: 3 August 2005 X# Whom: Alejandro Pulver X# X# $FreeBSD$ X# X XPORTNAME= toxine XPORTVERSION= 0.6.3 XCATEGORIES= multimedia XMASTER_SITES= ${MASTER_SITE_SOURCEFORGE} XMASTER_SITE_SUBDIR= toxine X XMAINTAINER= alejandro@varnet.biz XCOMMENT= Text user interface using the xine library X XLIB_DEPENDS= xine.13:${PORTSDIR}/multimedia/libxine X XUSE_X_PREFIX= yes XUSE_REINPLACE= yes XGNU_CONFIGURE= yes XCONFIGURE_TARGET= --build=${MACHINE_ARCH}-portbld-freebsd${OSREL} XCONFIGURE_ENV= CPPFLAGS="-I${LOCALBASE}/include -I${X11BASE}/include" \ X LDFLAGS="-L${LOCALBASE}/lib -I${X11BASE}/lib" X XMAN1= toxine.1 X XOPTIONS= AALIB "Enable aalib support" on \ X LIBCACA "Enable libcaca support" on \ X OPTIMIZED_CFLAGS "Enable compilation optimizations" on X X.include X X.if ${OSVERSION} < 502000 XLIB_DEPENDS+= readline.5:${PORTSDIR}/devel/readline XCONFIGURE_ARGS+= --with-readline=${LOCALBASE} X.endif X X.if defined(WITH_AALIB) XLIB_DEPENDS+= aa.1:${PORTSDIR}/graphics/aalib X.endif X X.if defined(WITH_LIBCACA) XBUILD_DEPENDS+= ${LOCALBASE}/lib/libcaca.a:${PORTSDIR}/graphics/libcaca X.endif X Xpost-patch: X @${REINPLACE_CMD} -e 's|alsa09|oss|g' ${WRKSRC}/misc/dvdplayer.sh.in X.if defined(WITHOUT_OPTIMIZED_CFLAGS) X @${REINPLACE_CMD} -e 's|-mpreferred-stack-boundary=2||g ; \ X s|-fno-strict-aliasing||g ; \ X s|-fschedule-insns2||g ; \ X s|-mwide-multiply||g ; \ X s|-falign-functions=4||g ; \ X s|-falign-loops=4||g ; \ X s|-falign-jumps=4||g ; \ X s|-fomit-frame-pointer||g ; \ X s|-fexpensive-optimizations||g ; \ X s|-ffast-math||g ; \ X s|-funroll-loops||g ; \ X s|-finline-functions||g' \ X ${CONFIGURE_WRKSRC}/${CONFIGURE_SCRIPT} X.endif X X.if defined(WITH_AALIB) || exists(${LOCALBASE}/lib/libaa.a) XPLIST_SUB+= AALIB="" X.else XPLIST_SUB+= AALIB="@comment " X.endif X X.if defined(WITH_LIBCACA) || exists(${LOCALBASE}/lib/libcaca.a) XPLIST_SUB+= LIBCACA="" X.else XPLIST_SUB+= LIBCACA="@comment " X.endif X X.include END-of-toxine/Makefile echo x - toxine/pkg-descr sed 's/^X//' >toxine/pkg-descr << 'END-of-toxine/pkg-descr' XToxine is a text user interface using the xine library. It permit to playback Xall streams that xine supports, in interactive or in script mode (using Xtoxine syntax). It use xine's visualisation plugins (AAlib, X11, DXR3/HW+), Xand/or his own 'none' one (audio only output). X XIt use the readline library, which permit, in interactive mode, to recall Xcommands, completions, etc.. X XYou can use it in a console (useful for DXR3/HW+ owners, using TV output), or Xin a X11 terminal window. XIf you're a developper, and you want to test/debug your own plugins, using Xtoxine is useful due of script usage. This way, you can reproduce actions Xwithout interactions, redirect outputs to a file (name given or not). You can Xalso see how to implement your own xine library frontend, because toxine Ximplement almost all xine's API calls. X XIf you don't like GUIs, or love console (and AAlib video output), toxine is Xfor you ;-) X XWWW: http://toxine.sourceforge.net/ X X- Alejandro Pulver Xalejandro@vanet.biz END-of-toxine/pkg-descr echo x - toxine/pkg-plist sed 's/^X//' >toxine/pkg-plist << 'END-of-toxine/pkg-plist' Xbin/dvdplayer.sh Xbin/toxine X%%AALIB%%lib/toxine/plugins/toxine_vo_plugin_aa.so X%%LIBCACA%%lib/toxine/plugins/toxine_vo_plugin_caca.so Xlib/toxine/plugins/toxine_vo_plugin_dxr3.so Xlib/toxine/plugins/toxine_vo_plugin_none.so Xlib/toxine/plugins/toxine_vo_plugin_x11.so X@dirrm lib/toxine/plugins X@dirrm lib/toxine END-of-toxine/pkg-plist echo x - toxine/distinfo sed 's/^X//' >toxine/distinfo << 'END-of-toxine/distinfo' XMD5 (toxine-0.6.3.tar.gz) = 261c6ac24f77337a9311d39f42fb5be4 XSIZE (toxine-0.6.3.tar.gz) = 342432 END-of-toxine/distinfo exit --- toxine.shar ends here --- >Release-Note: >Audit-Trail: >Unformatted: From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 4 08:23:34 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18E3C16A41C for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 08:23:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from achill@matrix.gatewaynet.com) Received: from matrix.gatewaynet.com (matrix.gatewaynet.com [217.19.69.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4054443D4C for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 08:23:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from achill@matrix.gatewaynet.com) Received: from matrix.gatewaynet.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by matrix.gatewaynet.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j648B2BS016274 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:11:02 +0300 Received: from localhost (achill@localhost) by matrix.gatewaynet.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id j648B2lC016270 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:11:02 +0300 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:11:02 +0300 (EEST) From: Achilleus Mantzios To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 08:23:34 -0000 "``eudaemonia'' is the state of being helped or protected by a kindly spirit. As a rule, UNIX systems seem to be infested with both daemons and demons." That could be a daemon of -STABLE branch, but in reality... No, eudaimonia (how its spelled in greek), it's almost similar to euphoria, meaning the state where the good daimons are in control, in general it means happiness, not safety. So eudaimonia, rather describes the -CURRENT instead! -- -Achilleus From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 4 11:02:04 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47E816A430 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:02:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C29943D49 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:02:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (peter@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j64B24Fm034451 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:02:04 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id j64B22nm034442 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:02:02 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:02:02 GMT Message-Id: <200507041102.j64B22nm034442@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: peter set sender to owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Current problem reports assigned to you X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 11:02:04 -0000 Current FreeBSD problem reports Critical problems Serious problems Non-critical problems S Submitted Tracker Resp. Description ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o [2005/07/03] advocacy/82934advocacy New port: multimedia/toxine - Text user i 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 4 11:14:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44E4D16A41F for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:14:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from rosebud.otenet.gr (rosebud.otenet.gr [195.170.0.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A310543D4C for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:14:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (aris.bedc.ondsl.gr [62.103.39.226]) by rosebud.otenet.gr (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-1) with SMTP id j64BEkl0013892; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:14:47 +0300 Received: from beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j64BEkIh007413; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:14:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3/Submit) id j64BEkqb007412; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:14:46 +0300 (EEST) X-Authentication-Warning: beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv: keramida set sender to keramida@ceid.upatras.gr using -f Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:14:46 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Achilleus Mantzios Message-ID: <20050704111446.GA7402@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: How to improve FreeBSD (was: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 11:14:54 -0000 On 2005-07-04 11:11, Achilleus Mantzios wrote: > > "``eudaemonia'' is the state of being helped or protected by a kindly > spirit. As a rule, UNIX systems seem to be infested with both daemons > and demons." > > That could be a daemon of -STABLE branch, but in reality... > > No, eudaimonia (how its spelled in greek), it's almost > similar to euphoria, meaning the state where the good daimons > are in control, in general it means happiness, not safety. > > So eudaimonia, rather describes the -CURRENT instead! Although I agree about the meaning of "eudaemonia", the link and association with STABLE and/or CURRENT is at least far-fetched :P Can we all move on and do better things that argue about demons, daemons, evil or good spirits, the religious beliefs of everyone, and other such not-really-beneficial-for-FreeBSD things? If some of you want to help us improve FreeBSD, then stop arguing about religious and spiritual things and prove you can do something with a "real" impact on the current stateof FreeBSD, such as: - Submit a fix for one of the existing bugs - Improve an existing feature - Add new features - etc. Regards, Giorgos From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 4 12:11:13 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3BE16A41C for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:11:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from achill@matrix.gatewaynet.com) Received: from matrix.gatewaynet.com (matrix.gatewaynet.com [217.19.69.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D1243D45 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:11:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from achill@matrix.gatewaynet.com) Received: from matrix.gatewaynet.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by matrix.gatewaynet.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j64BvfBS016681; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:57:41 +0300 Received: from localhost (achill@localhost) by matrix.gatewaynet.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id j64BveKi016677; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:57:40 +0300 Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:57:40 +0300 (EEST) From: Achilleus Mantzios To: Giorgos Keramidas In-Reply-To: <20050704111446.GA7402@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to improve FreeBSD (was: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:11:13 -0000 O Giorgos Keramidas έγραψε στις Jul 4, 2005 : > On 2005-07-04 11:11, Achilleus Mantzios wrote: > > > > "``eudaemonia'' is the state of being helped or protected by a kindly > > spirit. As a rule, UNIX systems seem to be infested with both daemons > > and demons." > > > > That could be a daemon of -STABLE branch, but in reality... > > > > No, eudaimonia (how its spelled in greek), it's almost > > similar to euphoria, meaning the state where the good daimons > > are in control, in general it means happiness, not safety. > > > > So eudaimonia, rather describes the -CURRENT instead! > > Although I agree about the meaning of "eudaemonia", the link and > association with STABLE and/or CURRENT is at least far-fetched :P > > Can we all move on and do better things that argue about demons, > daemons, evil or good spirits, the religious beliefs of everyone, > and other such not-really-beneficial-for-FreeBSD things? > > If some of you want to help us improve FreeBSD, then stop arguing > about religious and spiritual things and prove you can do something > with a "real" impact on the current stateof FreeBSD, such as: > > - Submit a fix for one of the existing bugs > - Improve an existing feature > - Add new features > - etc. Since when in the advocacy/chat lists do people discuss about anything of the above you mentioned? If an OS wants to show (off) that "manly", then leave only 2 lists : -hackers, and -current, (ok and -stable for the incompetent poor users). If, on the other hand, by this way, you want to express some "call for arms" for potential FreeBSD kernel/port developers,(fishing them from these "light" lists), then i doubt you choose the right way. > > Regards, > > Giorgos > -- -Achilleus From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 4 20:58:31 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EB2A16A41F; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:58:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ahze@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17AF943D45; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:58:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ahze@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (ahze@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j64KwUqK006869; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:58:30 GMT (envelope-from ahze@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from ahze@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id j64KwUnP006865; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:58:30 GMT (envelope-from ahze) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:58:30 GMT From: Michael Johnson Message-Id: <200507042058.j64KwUnP006865@freefall.freebsd.org> To: alejandro@varnet.biz, ahze@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:20:13 +0000 Cc: Subject: Re: advocacy/82934: New port: multimedia/toxine - Text user interface using the xine library X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 20:58:31 -0000 Synopsis: New port: multimedia/toxine - Text user interface using the xine library State-Changed-From-To: open->closed State-Changed-By: ahze State-Changed-When: Mon Jul 4 20:58:06 GMT 2005 State-Changed-Why: superseded by ports/82951 http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=82934 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 5 02:09:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF60316A41C for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 02:09:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from smtpgate1.pacific.net.sg (smtpgate1.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DEFD743D49 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 02:09:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 9315 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2005 02:09:19 -0000 Received: from maxwell2.pacific.net.sg (203.120.90.192) by smtpgate1 with SMTP; 5 Jul 2005 02:09:19 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.122.16]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050705020918.LRSB28012.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:09:18 +0800 Message-ID: <42C9EBBE.3030404@pacific.net.sg> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:09:02 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas References: <20050704111446.GA7402@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> In-Reply-To: <20050704111446.GA7402@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:20:13 +0000 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Achilleus Mantzios Subject: Re: How to improve FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 02:09:22 -0000 Hi, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2005-07-04 11:11, Achilleus Mantzios wrote: > > If some of you want to help us improve FreeBSD, then stop arguing > about religious and spiritual things and prove you can do something > with a "real" impact on the current stateof FreeBSD, such as: > > - Submit a fix for one of the existing bugs > - Improve an existing feature > - Add new features > - etc. > Isn't he talking about the feature 'add new users to the user base of FreeBSD'? Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 5 12:42:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CC7316A41C for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:42:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from rosebud.otenet.gr (rosebud.otenet.gr [195.170.0.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA6BE43D45 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:42:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (aris.bedc.ondsl.gr [62.103.39.226]) by rosebud.otenet.gr (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-1) with SMTP id j65CgnOt003052; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:42:49 +0300 Received: from beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j65CgmWe000799; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:42:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3/Submit) id j65CgfQ7000798; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:42:41 +0300 (EEST) X-Authentication-Warning: beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv: keramida set sender to keramida@freebsd.org using -f Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:42:41 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Erich Dollansky , Achilleus Mantzios Message-ID: <20050705124241.GA769@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> References: <20050704111446.GA7402@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> <42C9EBBE.3030404@pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42C9EBBE.3030404@pacific.net.sg> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to improve FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:42:53 -0000 On 2005-07-05 10:09, Erich Dollansky wrote: >Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >> On 2005-07-04 11:11, >> Achilleus Mantzios wrote: >> >> If some of you want to help us improve FreeBSD, then stop arguing >> about religious and spiritual things and prove you can do something >> with a "real" impact on the current stateof FreeBSD, such as: >> >> - Submit a fix for one of the existing bugs >> - Improve an existing feature >> - Add new features >> - etc. > > Isn't he talking about the feature 'add new users to the user base of > FreeBSD'? Perhaps. My main point was that instead of "talking about adding new users to FreeBSD", we should focus on "acting". The particular items of action that have the potential, as forms of "advocacy", to enlarge the FreeBSD userbase have been listed in older posts. I just reacted to the tendency I've seen the past few months to drive the greatest percentage of discussions around a change of the logo of FreeBSD, as if it was just the logo that keeps users from coming. Well, I assure you, it's not. This is not a statement from my part that there can never be people who refuse to use FreeBSD because they feel the daemon challenges or even insults their religious beliefs. There are, however, a great number of reasons why people do not use FreeBSD that have nothing to do with the logo: 1. Missing features that exist in other UNIX systems This is where one may list things such as "my favorite UNIX system is Foo(TM), because if supports Bar(R)". 2. Lack of "hype" in popular press For example, the marketting and press efforts of a certain Redmond-based company are a typical example of what we cannot match right now. The press coverage of Linux is also something that may lose us some users who would be perfectly happy with FreeBSD. 3. Minimal or completely non-existent support by some hardware or software vendors No support by ATI and very limited support by NVIDIA is a very sore point that we need to do something about. Before we embark on yet another flame about the daemon or its relative religious significane to a certain percentage of the potential FreeBSD users, we need to think as members of the advocacy list and as users or contributors to FreeBSD what have WE done to actively promote FreeBSD lately? What have WE done to make it more known to the masses? Have we really solved ALL other problems and feel that our efforts are severely limited by the daemon logo, in a way that needs immediate action to discuss or change it? That's all. That's why I'm in favor of direct and immediate action and my alarms go off whenever I see yet another (mostly pointless) discussion about what should be done. Don't talk anymore. Go out there and do. - Send an article about FreeBSD to your favorite online or print publication. - Write the code for a new FreeBSD feature. - Fix an existing bug. Just do :) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 5 21:12:02 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8CB316A41C for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:12:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A30843D49 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:12:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from mvwcim1a.acuson.com ([157.226.95.42]:3885 helo=mvwcim1a.ww005.siemens.net) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Dpuhy-00006p-5c; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:11:58 -0700 Received: by mvwcim1a.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <3K93VSZS>; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:12:00 -0700 Message-ID: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E088E@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'Nikolas Britton' Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:12:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:12:02 -0000 From: Nikolas Britton [mailto:freebsd@nbritton.org] > > 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site > with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here > of Cascading Style Sheets?) That's not the fault of the page, it's the fault of the browser. Neither the page nor the stylesheet are specifying a serif font, that's the browser doing it. Maybe you should go specify a different default font in your browser settings. David p.s. My apologies for not cross-posting like everyone else is. Old habits die hard... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 6 21:15:39 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1600616A41C; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:15:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz (southernuniform.com [66.76.92.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E76743D46; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:15:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [192.168.2.2] ([69.27.157.226]) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j66LFZ3C091195; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:15:36 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Message-ID: <42CC49BC.8030905@daleco.biz> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:14:36 -0500 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050607 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas References: <20050704111446.GA7402@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> <42C9EBBE.3030404@pacific.net.sg> <20050705124241.GA769@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> In-Reply-To: <20050705124241.GA769@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: BSD systems for distance learning: was (How to improve FreeBSD) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:15:39 -0000 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >Before we embark on yet another flame about the daemon or its relative >religious significane to a certain percentage of the potential FreeBSD >users, we need to think as members of the advocacy list and as users or >contributors to FreeBSD what have WE done to actively promote FreeBSD >lately? What have WE done to make it more known to the masses? Have >we really solved ALL other problems and feel that our efforts are >severely limited by the daemon logo, in a way that needs immediate >action to discuss or change it? > >That's all. That's why I'm in favor of direct and immediate action and >my alarms go off whenever I see yet another (mostly pointless) >discussion about what should be done. > >Don't talk anymore. Go out there and do. > > - Send an article about FreeBSD to your favorite online or print > publication. > - Write the code for a new FreeBSD feature. > - Fix an existing bug. > >Just do :) > > And, if you were/are a person to whom religion is significant, Giorgios, you should be a preacher/priest/pastor/cleric or whatever your brand calls it. We'd say here: "Amen, brother, preach it!!". Now, about "doing": I've got a lady (I met at a church, incidentally) after me to help her "get something going" with a program that seems to have been developed by the Mexican Government. I don't fully understand it, but it's about remote learning, and IIUC, participants can earn an educational certification ("High School" equivalency, perhaps, or even more) from said Government from here in the USA. She showed me a site, a "Portal Educativo", and I looked around for a while (at the time, I was in a "windows only" shop, so I was on Mozilla/WinXP). I didn't see much that looked like anything but standard web content, but the sheet she gave me was a standard "Microsoft Shop(ping) List" of technical requirements. I'm going to try and obtain a Winbox or two, but I'm thinking to also put some BSD boxes where they will be available for use. I may even put fvwm2 in the "WinXP lookalike" mode just to see if I can freak anybody out, or show them that, for the most part, standard apps on one platform look a lot like standard apps on another. I'm not fluent in Espanol; is anyone familiar with this program (http://www.conevyt.org.mx/)? Are these folks really going to need Windows? (Rich clients, perhaps? ActiveX? --- so far, all I've found are some java applets embedded in the sites.) Of course, I'm not able to access some pages . . . and not necessarily sure why, since the error messages aren't English. I know in a few cases I can't see everything since I've not yet "registro" (I'm definitely challenged by verb endings).... Anyway, I was curious if anyone else knows about this program. I have no idea if I can successfully deploy FBSD alongside that other product in this environment, but I'd like to keep the possibility open, and try . . . no one in this part of the country has implemented it yet, AFAIK, and we might get some local or regional press if we could pull something off. Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 7 16:52:07 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FAE616A41C for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:52:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB27A43D4C for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:52:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from mvwcim1a.acuson.com ([157.226.95.42]:2182 helo=mvwcim1a.ww005.siemens.net) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1DqZbY-0002I1-6E for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:52:04 -0700 Received: by mvwcim1a.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <3K93X1AP>; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:52:05 -0700 Message-ID: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA01518F6A@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:52:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: LWCE X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:52:07 -0000 Will there be any official or semi-official FreeBSD presence at next months' LinuxWorld expo? If so, I would like to volunteer to help man a booth. David Johnson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 7 17:44:10 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788C016A41C for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:44:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matt@offmyserver.com) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330DE43D46 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:44:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matt@offmyserver.com) Received: from [192.168.1.197] (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j67HJLgs036102; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:19:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@offmyserver.com) In-Reply-To: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA01518F6A@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA01518F6A@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <45620DF7-F250-4F5C-A577-8FE7A1EC4C8D@offmyserver.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matt Olander Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:44:08 -0700 To: Johnson David X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: LWCE X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 17:44:10 -0000 On Jul 7, 2005, at 9:52 AM, Johnson David wrote: > Will there be any official or semi-official FreeBSD presence at > next months' > LinuxWorld expo? If so, I would like to volunteer to help man a booth. Hey David, I'll let you know if we score a booth. I'm still waiting to hear back from the Show Manager at IDG. If not, maybe we'll just bring beastie to walk the floor and pass out some CDs ;-) Cheers, -matt ---- Matt Olander Chief Technology Officer, OffMyServer, Inc. Public Relations, The FreeBSD Project (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com www.freebsd.org ---- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 7 23:40:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71C5316A41C for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 23:40:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA5BE43D46 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 23:40:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A59E8.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.89.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j67Ner9K002081 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:40:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j67NeXpH005012 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:40:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost.jhs.private [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j67NeX0Z021813 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:40:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200507072340.j67NeX0Z021813@fire.jhs.private> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message from Johnson David of "Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:52:03 PDT." <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA01518F6A@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 01:40:33 +0200 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: LWCE X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 23:40:45 -0000 Johnson David wrote: > Will there be any official or semi-official FreeBSD presence at next months' > LinuxWorld expo? If so, I would like to volunteer to help man a booth. > > David Johnson If some others wants a list where exhibitors co-ordinate for BSD events in mainland / central Europe, mainly in German & English language, (but people on it might also know of other geographically adjacent lists).: BSD-EVENTS maillist - bsd-events@bsdhh.org Send administrative requests (subscription, vacation, ...) to listar@zs64.net To get help send a mail with the subject 'help' to listar@zs64.net -- Julian Stacey Consultant Systems Engineer, Munich. http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html = Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 8 09:16:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B857016A41C for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:16:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63BF243D46 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:16:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.2.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050708091620i9200aufqre>; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:16:20 +0000 Message-ID: <42CE4460.8030608@nbritton.org> Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 04:16:16 -0500 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050527) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johnson David References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E088E@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> In-Reply-To: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E088E@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 09:16:21 -0000 Johnson David wrote: > From: Nikolas Britton [mailto:freebsd@nbritton.org] > > > > 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site > > with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here > > of Cascading Style Sheets?) > > That's not the fault of the page, it's the fault of the browser. > Neither the page nor the stylesheet are specifying a serif font, > that's the browser doing it. Maybe you should go specify a different > default font in your browser settings. > Holy crap, duh, I didn't realize I could do that.... lmao... thanks.... This brings me to another point, if I never put two and two together what makes you thing normal people will? This is the major reasons why you hard code the font-family into your docs. here's the one I use most of the time: font-family: Verdana, "Bitstream Vera Sans", Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; > David > > p.s. My apologies for not cross-posting like everyone else is. Old > habits die hard... > cross-posting?, is this thread still active on advocacy? The freebsd listbot unsubscribed me from all maillists because my mail server (that I have no control over) bounces everything coming from mx1.freebsd.org, It was blacklisted on SORBS. I'm procrastinating the switch over to my gmail account, so far I've only resubscribed to questions. Anyways thanks for the tip. slashdot et al. look %100 better now From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 8 09:50:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764EF16A41C for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:50:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D736243D4C for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:50:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A72B0.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.114.176]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j689od9K003770; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:50:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j689oZFa001312; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:50:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost.jhs.private [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j689oZ0M003405; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:50:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200507080950.j689oZ0M003405@fire.jhs.private> To: Nikolas Britton In-Reply-To: Message from Nikolas Britton of "Fri, 08 Jul 2005 04:16:16 CDT." <42CE4460.8030608@nbritton.org> Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:50:35 +0200 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: Johnson David , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 09:50:53 -0000 Nikolas Britton wrote: > Johnson David wrote: > > > p.s. My apologies for not cross-posting like everyone else is. Old > > habits die hard... > > > cross-posting?, is this thread still active on advocacy? It was a reference to too many others having been regularly breaking the `Do Not Cross Post" rule. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL > switch over to my gmail account, so far I've only resubscribed to questions. Consider also subscribing freebsd-www@freebsd.org It's where web content discussion belongs, Ref http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-www A mailing list that allows you to send mail to the Webmasters, the managers of FreeBSD Project web servers (not web servers that hosted on FreeBSD computers). To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the freebsd-www Archives. http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-www/ -- Julian Stacey Consultant Systems Engineer, Munich. http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html = Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz.