From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 13 13:39:15 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6BC116A564; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:39:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31B3943D54; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:39:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from [192.168.254.11] (junior-wifi.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3DDgMvu044937; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:42:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <425D2041.7020501@samsco.org> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:36:01 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050218 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=3.8 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on pooker.samsco.org cc: re@freebsd.org cc: David Xu Subject: HEADS-UP: Planning on deprecating libc_r for 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:39:15 -0000 All, Now that we've had working KSE for 2 years, I'm planning to declare that libc_r will be deprecated in 6.0 and removed by or before 7.0. That means that libc_r will still be built and installed and usable for 6.0 and likely for most of the 6.x lifetime, but its visibility will decrease in favor of libpthread and possibly libthr. Given that 7.0 is at least 2 years away, that should give plenty of time for migration and testing. I assume that libc_r will also live on in compatibility library archives long after that for those with legacy apps. One question that has come up is how to warn the user at runtime about this deprecation. Should the dynamic linker print a message to stderr when it gets a request to load libc_r? Should it go to the console and/or syslog instead? Should there be a way to disable these messages so as not to break wrapper programs that might be confused by the output? Should we even bother at all with runtime warnings? Thanks, Scott From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 13 14:42:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462D016A4CE; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:42:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rosebud.otenet.gr (rosebud.otenet.gr [195.170.0.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0887A43D45; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:42:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (aris.bedc.ondsl.gr [62.103.39.226])j3DEf1PA029947; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:41:03 +0300 Received: from orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (orion [127.0.0.1]) j3DEg0Lt040902; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:42:00 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from keramida@localhost)j3DEg09J040901; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:42:00 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:42:00 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20050413144159.GA40749@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv> References: <425D2041.7020501@samsco.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <425D2041.7020501@samsco.org> cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: re@freebsd.org cc: David Xu Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: Planning on deprecating libc_r for 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:42:08 -0000 On 2005-04-13 07:36, Scott Long wrote: > All, > > Now that we've had working KSE for 2 years, I'm planning to declare that > libc_r will be deprecated in 6.0 [...] > > One question that has come up is how to warn the user at runtime about > this deprecation. Should the dynamic linker print a message to stderr > when it gets a request to load libc_r? Should it go to the console > and/or syslog instead? Should there be a way to disable these messages > so as not to break wrapper programs that might be confused by the > output? Should we even bother at all with runtime warnings? How about modifying the dynamic linker to print a warning to stderr, much like mktemp(3), but let the user disable it by setting an environment variable, like LD_WARN_LIBC_R_DISABLE or similar? From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 13 14:44:32 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B3F16A4CE; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:44:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5052B43D2F; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:44:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from [192.168.254.11] (junior-wifi.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3DElf4u045314; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:47:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <425D2F90.4020207@samsco.org> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:41:20 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050218 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas References: <425D2041.7020501@samsco.org> <20050413144159.GA40749@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv> In-Reply-To: <20050413144159.GA40749@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=3.8 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on pooker.samsco.org cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: re@freebsd.org cc: David Xu Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: Planning on deprecating libc_r for 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:44:33 -0000 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2005-04-13 07:36, Scott Long wrote: > >>All, >> >>Now that we've had working KSE for 2 years, I'm planning to declare that >>libc_r will be deprecated in 6.0 [...] >> >>One question that has come up is how to warn the user at runtime about >>this deprecation. Should the dynamic linker print a message to stderr >>when it gets a request to load libc_r? Should it go to the console >>and/or syslog instead? Should there be a way to disable these messages >>so as not to break wrapper programs that might be confused by the >>output? Should we even bother at all with runtime warnings? > > > How about modifying the dynamic linker to print a warning to stderr, > much like mktemp(3), but let the user disable it by setting an > environment variable, like LD_WARN_LIBC_R_DISABLE or similar? > Are there any sorts of pre-defined ELF sections that we could put deprecation info into and have the linker print it out? That way controls could be commonized for future use. Scott From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 13 14:45:12 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E2016A4CF; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:45:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (f170.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D500443D55; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:45:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.3/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3DEj7VS019269; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:45:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Giorgos Keramidas From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:42:00 +0300." <20050413144159.GA40749@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:45:07 +0200 Message-ID: <19268.1113403507@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: re@freebsd.org cc: David Xu Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: Planning on deprecating libc_r for 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:45:13 -0000 In message <20050413144159.GA40749@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv>, Giorgos Keramidas writes: >On 2005-04-13 07:36, Scott Long wrote: >> All, >> >> Now that we've had working KSE for 2 years, I'm planning to declare that >> libc_r will be deprecated in 6.0 [...] >> >> One question that has come up is how to warn the user at runtime about >> this deprecation. Should the dynamic linker print a message to stderr >> when it gets a request to load libc_r? Should it go to the console >> and/or syslog instead? Should there be a way to disable these messages >> so as not to break wrapper programs that might be confused by the >> output? Should we even bother at all with runtime warnings? > >How about modifying the dynamic linker to print a warning to stderr, >much like mktemp(3), but let the user disable it by setting an >environment variable, like LD_WARN_LIBC_R_DISABLE or similar? The user can disable it by adding a line in libmap.conf so let us not invent more handles to tweak but point the user at the right one. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 13 14:47:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51FA716A4CE; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:47:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5DD143D6D; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:47:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from [192.168.254.11] (junior-wifi.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3DEoGhl045346; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:50:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <425D302C.1060006@samsco.org> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:43:56 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050218 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp References: <19268.1113403507@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <19268.1113403507@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=3.8 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on pooker.samsco.org cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: re@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: David Xu Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: Planning on deprecating libc_r for 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:47:08 -0000 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20050413144159.GA40749@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv>, Giorgos Keramidas writes: > >>On 2005-04-13 07:36, Scott Long wrote: >> >>>All, >>> >>>Now that we've had working KSE for 2 years, I'm planning to declare that >>>libc_r will be deprecated in 6.0 [...] >>> >>>One question that has come up is how to warn the user at runtime about >>>this deprecation. Should the dynamic linker print a message to stderr >>>when it gets a request to load libc_r? Should it go to the console >>>and/or syslog instead? Should there be a way to disable these messages >>>so as not to break wrapper programs that might be confused by the >>>output? Should we even bother at all with runtime warnings? >> >>How about modifying the dynamic linker to print a warning to stderr, >>much like mktemp(3), but let the user disable it by setting an >>environment variable, like LD_WARN_LIBC_R_DISABLE or similar? > > > The user can disable it by adding a line in libmap.conf so let us > not invent more handles to tweak but point the user at the right > one. > Well, the worry is that there are legacy apps out there that rely on features/bugs only found in libc_r, therefore the user can't just switch. Scott From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 13 14:48:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E577A16A4CE; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:48:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (f170.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1138643D72; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:48:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.3/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3DEmmZr019353; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:48:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Scott Long From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:43:56 MDT." <425D302C.1060006@samsco.org> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:48:48 +0200 Message-ID: <19352.1113403728@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: re@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: David Xu Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: Planning on deprecating libc_r for 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:48:50 -0000 In message <425D302C.1060006@samsco.org>, Scott Long writes: >> The user can disable it by adding a line in libmap.conf so let us > not invent more handles to tweak but point the user at the right >> one. >> > >Well, the worry is that there are legacy apps out there that rely on >features/bugs only found in libc_r, therefore the user can't just >switch. They'll have two years to find out if they start looking now. The more weird handles we add for people to tweak the worse FreeBSD becomes as a result. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 13 14:57:46 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5734816A4CE; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:57:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.village.org [168.103.84.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E064D43D60; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:57:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.13.3/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3DEueu0055383; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:56:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:56:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20050413.085652.56562781.imp@bsdimp.com> To: scottl@samsco.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <425D2041.7020501@samsco.org> References: <425D2041.7020501@samsco.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: re@freebsd.org cc: davidxu@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: Planning on deprecating libc_r for 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:57:46 -0000 In message: <425D2041.7020501@samsco.org> Scott Long writes: : One question that has come up is how to warn the user at runtime about : this deprecation. Should the dynamic linker print a message to stderr : when it gets a request to load libc_r? Should it go to the console : and/or syslog instead? Should there be a way to disable these messages : so as not to break wrapper programs that might be confused by the : output? Should we even bother at all with runtime warnings? I'd do a build-time warning only. This would allow poeple to deploy systems with libc_r and not have annoying warnings at a customer's site. They will know that things are deprecated. Also, compat librarires will be around for a while, so doing things at runtime seems annoying... As far as my company's use of libc_r, we don't yet know how well non-libc_r works yet since we've not done any large threaded FreeBSD 5 applications yet. So I can't comment on how wise/foolish this option is with any direct experience. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 13 15:04:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1C2F16A4CE; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:04:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kane.otenet.gr (kane.otenet.gr [195.170.0.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E07ED43D49; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:04:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (aris.bedc.ondsl.gr [62.103.39.226])j3DF34MA019377; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:03:05 +0300 Received: from orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (orion [127.0.0.1]) j3DF45uA041194; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:04:05 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from keramida@localhost)j3DF45vt041193; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:04:05 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:04:05 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20050413150405.GC41052@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv> References: <20050413144159.GA40749@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv> <19268.1113403507@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <19268.1113403507@critter.freebsd.dk> cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: re@freebsd.org cc: David Xu Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: Planning on deprecating libc_r for 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:04:08 -0000 On 2005-04-13 16:45, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >In message <20050413144159.GA40749@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv>, >Giorgos Keramidas writes: >>How about modifying the dynamic linker to print a warning to stderr, >>much like mktemp(3), but let the user disable it by setting an >>environment variable, like LD_WARN_LIBC_R_DISABLE or similar? > > The user can disable it by adding a line in libmap.conf so let us > not invent more handles to tweak but point the user at the right > one. Very true, thanks for the tip :-) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 13 15:08:26 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 623C616A4CE; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:08:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from billy.cse.buffalo.edu (billy.cse.Buffalo.EDU [128.205.32.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A21A443D39; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:08:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kensmith@cs.Buffalo.EDU) Received: from bloom.cse.buffalo.edu (bloom.cse.Buffalo.EDU [128.205.32.88]) (authenticated bits=0) by billy.cse.buffalo.edu (8.13.3/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3DF8Vw9025503; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:08:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kensmith@cse.buffalo.edu) From: Ken Smith To: Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <19352.1113403728@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <19352.1113403728@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:08:02 -0400 Message-Id: <1113404882.4412.7.camel@bloom.cse.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.1.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: re@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: David Xu Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: Planning on deprecating libc_r for 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:08:26 -0000 On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 16:48 +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <425D302C.1060006@samsco.org>, Scott Long writes: > > >> The user can disable it by adding a line in libmap.conf so let us > > not invent more handles to tweak but point the user at the right > >> one. > >> > > > >Well, the worry is that there are legacy apps out there that rely on > >features/bugs only found in libc_r, therefore the user can't just > >switch. > > They'll have two years to find out if they start looking now. > > The more weird handles we add for people to tweak the worse FreeBSD > becomes as a result. > I've been bitten by this stuff in the past so I'd appreciate having this particular weird handle. Scenario goes something like this: - Update base OS system - stops working - Grumble... - Diagnose it, turns out the client widget from vendor is using an old library interface which is now emitting a helpful warning message saying it's been depreciated which is interfering with the protocol between the client and server. - Begin discussion with vendor suggesting they update their client widget but at the moment they don't have a newer version It's somewhat annoying to not be able to turn off the helpful warning message in a simple way for someone managing more than a small handful of machines. -- Ken Smith - From there to here, from here to | kensmith@cse.buffalo.edu there, funny things are everywhere. | - Theodore Geisel | From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 13 15:27:15 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3DF716A4CE; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:27:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kane.otenet.gr (kane.otenet.gr [195.170.0.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFE743D1F; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:27:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (aris.bedc.ondsl.gr [62.103.39.226])j3DFQ6e7032520; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:26:11 +0300 Received: from orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (orion [127.0.0.1]) j3DFR7TQ041387; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:27:07 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from keramida@localhost)j3DFR7xL041386; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:27:07 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:27:07 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20050413152707.GA41331@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv> References: <19268.1113403507@critter.freebsd.dk> <425D302C.1060006@samsco.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <425D302C.1060006@samsco.org> cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: re@freebsd.org cc: David Xu Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: Planning on deprecating libc_r for 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:27:15 -0000 On 2005-04-13 08:43, Scott Long wrote: >Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>> How about modifying the dynamic linker to print a warning to stderr, >>> much like mktemp(3), but let the user disable it by setting an >>> environment variable, like LD_WARN_LIBC_R_DISABLE or similar? >> >> The user can disable it by adding a line in libmap.conf so let us not >> invent more handles to tweak but point the user at the right one. > > Well, the worry is that there are legacy apps out there that rely on > features/bugs only found in libc_r, therefore the user can't just > switch. Exactly the reason why I like the idea of deprecation messages but also like being able to disable them. It's not really impossible or unthought of that it may take a stupidly long amount of time for a vendor to fix their broken application that depends on a bug of a deprecated library *and* misbehaves because of a message sent to stderr by the linker. Having said that, since this is being deprecated in 6.X, which is pretty much "current" and people aren't really expected to jump on the FreeBSD-current wagon if they use FreeBSD for production, how many people use libc_r now that may be bitten by the deprecation messages? From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 13 16:43:28 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F192016A4CE; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:43:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3218943D5C; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:43:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from [166.220.248.152] (DEN-166-220-248-152.goport.net [166.220.248.152] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3DGkVSM046068; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:46:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <425D4B48.4070801@samsco.org> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:39:36 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050218 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas References: <19268.1113403507@critter.freebsd.dk> <425D302C.1060006@samsco.org> <20050413152707.GA41331@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv> In-Reply-To: <20050413152707.GA41331@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=3.8 tests=none autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on pooker.samsco.org cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: re@freebsd.org cc: David Xu Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: Planning on deprecating libc_r for 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:43:28 -0000 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2005-04-13 08:43, Scott Long wrote: > >>Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> >>>>How about modifying the dynamic linker to print a warning to stderr, >>>>much like mktemp(3), but let the user disable it by setting an >>>>environment variable, like LD_WARN_LIBC_R_DISABLE or similar? >>> >>>The user can disable it by adding a line in libmap.conf so let us not >>>invent more handles to tweak but point the user at the right one. >> >>Well, the worry is that there are legacy apps out there that rely on >>features/bugs only found in libc_r, therefore the user can't just >>switch. > > > Exactly the reason why I like the idea of deprecation messages but also like > being able to disable them. It's not really impossible or unthought of that > it may take a stupidly long amount of time for a vendor to fix their broken > application that depends on a bug of a deprecated library *and* misbehaves > because of a message sent to stderr by the linker. > > Having said that, since this is being deprecated in 6.X, which is pretty much > "current" and people aren't really expected to jump on the FreeBSD-current > wagon if they use FreeBSD for production, how many people use libc_r now that > may be bitten by the deprecation messages? > Well, 6-CURRENT will turn to 6-STABLE in just a few months. It's not years in the future =-) Scott From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 13 16:49:38 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE18C16A4CE; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:49:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AACB43D1D; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:49:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from [166.220.248.152] (DEN-166-220-248-152.goport.net [166.220.248.152] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3DGpTwe046097; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:51:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <425D4C90.9090702@samsco.org> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:45:04 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050218 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <425D2041.7020501@samsco.org> <20050413.085652.56562781.imp@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <20050413.085652.56562781.imp@bsdimp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=3.8 tests=none autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on pooker.samsco.org cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: re@freebsd.org cc: davidxu@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: Planning on deprecating libc_r for 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:49:38 -0000 M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <425D2041.7020501@samsco.org> > Scott Long writes: > : One question that has come up is how to warn the user at runtime about > : this deprecation. Should the dynamic linker print a message to stderr > : when it gets a request to load libc_r? Should it go to the console > : and/or syslog instead? Should there be a way to disable these messages > : so as not to break wrapper programs that might be confused by the > : output? Should we even bother at all with runtime warnings? > > I'd do a build-time warning only. > > This would allow poeple to deploy systems with libc_r and not have > annoying warnings at a customer's site. They will know that things > are deprecated. Also, compat librarires will be around for a while, > so doing things at runtime seems annoying... > > As far as my company's use of libc_r, we don't yet know how well > non-libc_r works yet since we've not done any large threaded FreeBSD 5 > applications yet. So I can't comment on how wise/foolish this option > is with any direct experience. > > Warner Yes, outfits like yours and Julian's are exactly what I had in mind when I said that it would be several years before it goes away, and even then it would live on in /usr/lib/compat. Scott From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 13 18:08:25 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3149F16A4CE; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:08:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dan.emsphone.com (dan.emsphone.com [199.67.51.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C053243D39; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:08:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by dan.emsphone.com (8.13.1/8.13.3) id j3DI8Otx065966; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:08:24 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dan) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:08:24 -0500 From: Dan Nelson To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20050413180824.GE4842@dan.emsphone.com> References: <425D2041.7020501@samsco.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <425D2041.7020501@samsco.org> X-OS: FreeBSD 5.4-PRERELEASE X-message-flag: Outlook Error User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: re@freebsd.org cc: David Xu Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: Planning on deprecating libc_r for 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:08:25 -0000 In the last episode (Apr 13), Scott Long said: > Now that we've had working KSE for 2 years, I'm planning to declare > that libc_r will be deprecated in 6.0 and removed by or before 7.0. > That means that libc_r will still be built and installed and usable > for 6.0 and likely for most of the 6.x lifetime, but its visibility > will decrease in favor of libpthread and possibly libthr. Given that > 7.0 is at least 2 years away, that should give plenty of time for > migration and testing. I assume that libc_r will also live on in > compatibility library archives long after that for those with legacy > apps. On a somewhat related note (libpthread/libthr feature parity with libc_r), is there any way to get truss to be kse/thr aware? Currently you can't trace kernel-threaded apps because the thread-switching syscalls get in the way. Compare the output of: truss host www.yahoo.com LD_LIBMAP=libpthread.so.1=libthr.so.1 truss host www.yahoo.com LD_LIBMAP=libpthread.so.1=libc_r.so.5 truss host www.yahoo.com The libc_r one is the only one with useable output. ports/sysutils/pstack (prints the stacks of a running process) is another handy tool that's libc_r only. Is libthread_db something that can help here and hide the differences between the libs? -- Dan Nelson dnelson@allantgroup.com From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 15 15:41:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A81516A4CE for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:41:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp-1.dlr.de (smtp-1.dlr.de [195.37.61.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE44143D54 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:41:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Hartmut.Brandt@dlr.de) Received: from beagle.kn.op.dlr.de ([129.247.173.6]) by smtp-1.dlr.de over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:41:31 +0200 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:41:57 +0200 (CEST) From: Harti Brandt X-X-Sender: brandt_h@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de To: arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050415173711.I658@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Apr 2005 15:41:31.0622 (UTC) FILETIME=[98B9F060:01C541D1] Subject: De-orbitting ATM-HARP X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Harti Brandt List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:41:33 -0000 Hi all, not sure whether this is actually off-topic. Some time ago I asked on freebsd-atm who would have a problem when we remove HARP (netatm, hfa) from 6. I got only two or three answers which said 'go for it'. Nobody said that he would have a problem. So should we do it and when? Perhaps the best time is before 6.0. That would be in the next two weeks as I understand. While there I would also remove everything from netnatm that is not needed by NgATM. This is mainly the socket interface. I'm not aware of any application that uses it. Any thoughts on this? harti From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 15 16:08:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C49616A4CE for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:08:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from c00l3r.networx.ch (c00l3r.networx.ch [62.48.2.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B5B343D53 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:08:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from andre@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 12972 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2005 16:11:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd.org) ([62.48.0.53]) (envelope-sender ) by c00l3r.networx.ch (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 15 Apr 2005 16:11:29 -0000 Message-ID: <425FE701.D3770A35@freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:08:33 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harti Brandt References: <20050415173711.I658@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: De-orbitting ATM-HARP X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:08:35 -0000 Harti Brandt wrote: > > Hi all, > > not sure whether this is actually off-topic. Some time ago I asked on > freebsd-atm who would have a problem when we remove HARP (netatm, hfa) > from 6. I got only two or three answers which said 'go for it'. Nobody > said that he would have a problem. So should we do it and when? Perhaps > the best time is before 6.0. That would be in the next two weeks as I > understand. > > While there I would also remove everything from netnatm that is not needed > by NgATM. This is mainly the socket interface. I'm not aware of any > application that uses it. Any thoughts on this? Go for it. :-) -- Andre From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 16 12:44:38 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D45216A4CE; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:44:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F76143D3F; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:44:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from [192.168.254.11] (junior-wifi.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3GClHbD063551; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 06:47:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <426107F4.8000107@samsco.org> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 06:41:24 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050218 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harti Brandt References: <20050415173711.I658@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> In-Reply-To: <20050415173711.I658@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=3.8 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on pooker.samsco.org cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: De-orbitting ATM-HARP X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:44:38 -0000 Harti Brandt wrote: > > Hi all, > > not sure whether this is actually off-topic. Some time ago I asked on > freebsd-atm who would have a problem when we remove HARP (netatm, hfa) > from 6. I got only two or three answers which said 'go for it'. Nobody > said that he would have a problem. So should we do it and when? Perhaps > the best time is before 6.0. That would be in the next two weeks as I > understand. > > While there I would also remove everything from netnatm that is not > needed by NgATM. This is mainly the socket interface. I'm not aware of > any application that uses it. Any thoughts on this? > > harti Go for it From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 16 12:48:00 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5A9216A4CE; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:48:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from arginine.spc.org (arginine.spc.org [83.167.185.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4B2343D48; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:48:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bms@spc.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arginine.spc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AB426520E; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:47:34 +0100 (BST) Received: from arginine.spc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (arginine.spc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 81182-01-2; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:47:34 +0100 (BST) Received: from empiric.dek.spc.org (66-117-149-249.rdsl.lmi.net [66.117.149.249]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by arginine.spc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C01651EE; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:47:33 +0100 (BST) Received: by empiric.dek.spc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B01BE616D; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 05:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 05:47:51 -0700 From: Bruce M Simpson To: Harti Brandt Message-ID: <20050416124751.GC5452@empiric.icir.org> References: <20050415173711.I658@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050415173711.I658@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: De-orbitting ATM-HARP X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:48:01 -0000 On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 05:41:57PM +0200, Harti Brandt wrote: > While there I would also remove everything from netnatm that is not needed > by NgATM. This is mainly the socket interface. I'm not aware of any > application that uses it. Any thoughts on this? Go for it. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 16 14:41:12 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3DB16A4CE; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:41:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.156.12.53]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89FE43D1F; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:41:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8CF646B23; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:41:59 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Harti Brandt In-Reply-To: <20050415173711.I658@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> Message-ID: <20050416154049.B64125@fledge.watson.org> References: <20050415173711.I658@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: De-orbitting ATM-HARP X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:41:13 -0000 On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Harti Brandt wrote: > not sure whether this is actually off-topic. Some time ago I asked on > freebsd-atm who would have a problem when we remove HARP (netatm, hfa) > from 6. I got only two or three answers which said 'go for it'. Nobody > said that he would have a problem. So should we do it and when? Perhaps > the best time is before 6.0. That would be in the next two weeks as I > understand. > > While there I would also remove everything from netnatm that is not > needed by NgATM. This is mainly the socket interface. I'm not aware of > any application that uses it. Any thoughts on this? One of the concerns I have with the ATM stacks present in the system is that none appears to be MPSAFE. I am currently unable to perform any ATM-related testing, and so don't feel comfortable starting on locking work on the ATM components. If we can remove unused ATM code, that makes the overall task of getting the last bits of the network stack MPSAFE much easier. BTW, have you tried pinging freebsd-net? Robert N M Watson From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 16 15:08:22 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F77716A4CE; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:08:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from arginine.spc.org (arginine.spc.org [83.167.185.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA8843D31; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:08:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bms@spc.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arginine.spc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D652A65218; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:07:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from arginine.spc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (arginine.spc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 82274-01-2; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:07:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from empiric.dek.spc.org (66-117-149-249.rdsl.lmi.net [66.117.149.249]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by arginine.spc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19C165219; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:07:53 +0100 (BST) Received: by empiric.dek.spc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8CADA616D; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 08:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 08:08:10 -0700 From: Bruce M Simpson To: Harti Brandt Message-ID: <20050416150810.GD5452@empiric.icir.org> References: <20050415173711.I658@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050415173711.I658@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: De-orbitting ATM-HARP X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:08:22 -0000 On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 05:41:57PM +0200, Harti Brandt wrote: > While there I would also remove everything from netnatm that is not needed > by NgATM. This is mainly the socket interface. I'm not aware of any > application that uses it. Any thoughts on this? Oh. Don't remove that. Userland PPP needs it. People who are using ADSL modems of any kind will still need it. Thanks, BMS From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 16 20:52:51 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D357416A4CE; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:52:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bgo1smout1.broadpark.no (bgo1smout1.broadpark.no [217.13.4.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5076543D1D; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:52:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from bgo1sminn1.broadpark.no ([217.13.4.93]) by bgo1smout1.broadpark.no (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.05 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IF20025Q4EMRM10@bgo1smout1.broadpark.no>; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:47:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dsa.des.no ([80.203.228.37]) by bgo1sminn1.broadpark.no (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 HotFix 0.05 (built Oct 21 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IF200A6Q4Q1PH70@bgo1sminn1.broadpark.no>; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:54:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dsa.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id E5533EBE55; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:52:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from xps.des.no (xps.des.no [10.0.0.12]) by dsa.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 3D248EBE2B; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:52:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0583933C39; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:52:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:52:43 +0200 From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) In-reply-to: <20050416150810.GD5452@empiric.icir.org> To: Bruce M Simpson Message-id: <86ll7i30mc.fsf@xps.des.no> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on dsa.des.no References: <20050415173711.I658@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <20050416150810.GD5452@empiric.icir.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Level: cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Harti Brandt Subject: Re: De-orbitting ATM-HARP X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:52:51 -0000 Bruce M Simpson writes: > On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 05:41:57PM +0200, Harti Brandt wrote: > > While there I would also remove everything from netnatm that is > > not needed by NgATM. This is mainly the socket interface. I'm not > > aware of any application that uses it. Any thoughts on this? > Oh. Don't remove that. Userland PPP needs it. People who are using > ADSL modems of any kind will still need it. Uh? PPP uses netgraph, which has its own socket thingy. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 16 20:55:28 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFBF16A4CE; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:55:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from arginine.spc.org (arginine.spc.org [83.167.185.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5116943D1F; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:55:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bms@spc.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arginine.spc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B29565211; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:55:00 +0100 (BST) Received: from arginine.spc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (arginine.spc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 84576-03-7; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:54:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from empiric.dek.spc.org (dhcp52.icir.org [192.150.187.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by arginine.spc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AD6F65216; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:54:59 +0100 (BST) Received: by empiric.dek.spc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8A22D6301; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:55:23 -0700 From: Bruce M Simpson To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-ID: <20050416205523.GE784@empiric.icir.org> References: <20050415173711.I658@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <20050416150810.GD5452@empiric.icir.org> <86ll7i30mc.fsf@xps.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vGgW1X5XWziG23Ko" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86ll7i30mc.fsf@xps.des.no> cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Harti Brandt Subject: Re: De-orbitting ATM-HARP X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:55:28 -0000 --vGgW1X5XWziG23Ko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Apr 16, 2005 at 10:52:43PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Bruce M Simpson writes: > > On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 05:41:57PM +0200, Harti Brandt wrote: > > > While there I would also remove everything from netnatm that is > > > not needed by NgATM. This is mainly the socket interface. I'm not > > > aware of any application that uses it. Any thoughts on this? > > Oh. Don't remove that. Userland PPP needs it. People who are using > > ADSL modems of any kind will still need it. >=20 > Uh? PPP uses netgraph, which has its own socket thingy. Fraid not. If you look at the source for ppp you will clearly see that it opens an AF_NATM socket. %%% empiric:/usr/src/usr.sbin/ppp % grep NATM * atm.c: sock.snatm_family =3D AF_NATM; atm.c: p->fd =3D socket(PF_NATM, SOCK_DGRAM, PROTO_NATMAAL5); %%% BMS --vGgW1X5XWziG23Ko Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQFCYXu7ueUpAYYNtTsRAn+jAJ9X8R1uYg9Ws+Qnpvsq5XWwlWSPrwCaAgil MbxJ11JpVqf/J9av8ydnagg= =TSmt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vGgW1X5XWziG23Ko-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 16 20:59:47 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80A7416A4CE; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:59:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.156.12.53]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4455543D41; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:59:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E03C46B27; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:59:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:00:36 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: <86ll7i30mc.fsf@xps.des.no> Message-ID: <20050416220010.I71453@fledge.watson.org> References: <20050415173711.I658@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <20050416150810.GD5452@empiric.icir.org> <86ll7i30mc.fsf@xps.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-988940064-1113685236=:71453" cc: Bruce M Simpson cc: Harti Brandt cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: De-orbitting ATM-HARP X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:59:47 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-988940064-1113685236=:71453 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Bruce M Simpson writes: >> On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 05:41:57PM +0200, Harti Brandt wrote: >>> While there I would also remove everything from netnatm that is >>> not needed by NgATM. This is mainly the socket interface. I'm not >>> aware of any application that uses it. Any thoughts on this? >> Oh. Don't remove that. Userland PPP needs it. People who are using >> ADSL modems of any kind will still need it. > > Uh? PPP uses netgraph, which has its own socket thingy. I think that's for PPPoE, and not PPPoA... Robert N M Watson --0-988940064-1113685236=:71453-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 16 21:10:04 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D446916A4CE; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:10:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from arginine.spc.org (arginine.spc.org [83.167.185.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E1243D31; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:10:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bms@spc.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arginine.spc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5B2653F8; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:09:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from arginine.spc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (arginine.spc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 84989-01; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:09:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from empiric.dek.spc.org (dhcp52.icir.org [192.150.187.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by arginine.spc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6A365371; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:09:36 +0100 (BST) Received: by empiric.dek.spc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 973496301; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:10:00 -0700 From: Bruce M Simpson To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-ID: <20050416211000.GF784@empiric.icir.org> References: <20050415173711.I658@beagle.kn.op.dlr.de> <20050416150810.GD5452@empiric.icir.org> <86ll7i30mc.fsf@xps.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <86ll7i30mc.fsf@xps.des.no> cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Harti Brandt Subject: Re: De-orbitting ATM-HARP X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:10:04 -0000 On Sat, Apr 16, 2005 at 10:52:43PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Uh? PPP uses netgraph, which has its own socket thingy. Postscript. It struck my mind that you were possibly thinking of the netgraph-based, kernel-space implementation of PPP, in particular the ng_pppoe node. This only knows about the PPP-over-Ethernet encapsulation. If someone were to write the necessary node to support the PPP-over-ATM encapsulation, then yes, we probably could make NATM go away, but then Netgraph would be the only means of working with ATM virtual circuits under FreeBSD, which has debatable merits. HARP may be old and crufty, NATM is but a small part of it, but it would be the last piece of ATM code which we have in common with the other BSDs. In terms of code quality and design, I've found it far nicer to work with than the equivalent Linux offering. Besides, I think being able to have native ADSL connectivity on a *BSD machine is a good thing. Deprecating NATM for the 6.0 lifetime would affect several users, developers and committers who are working towards this. I'd be more than happy to see ng_pppoa go in for 6.0, though. [That would be an excellent idea - being able to run MPD on top of ATM would let us do native xDSL channel bonding on FreeBSD.] Just my 2c (about to change back to pence), BMS