From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 27 18:41:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: crap@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E59416A4DF for ; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 18:41:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tyzciurf@designstorm.com) Received: from [200.58.190.96] (dial-200.58.190.96.cotas.com.bo [200.58.190.96]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E2743D64 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 2006 18:41:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tyzciurf@designstorm.com) Message-ID: <000e01c6ca09$015e6e00$60be3ac8@tvsystemdfc63f> From: "Crisis: Abject" To: crap@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:45:45 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6C9E7.7A4CCE00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: using X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 18:41:09 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6C9E7.7A4CCE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FOOTBALL Arsenal Wigan Athletic Reading Heskey silences doubters mark = Charlton Sports announces instant impact CRICKET Analysis Comment SME Citywire Media People Profiles Pandora images = Cricket Football European Coca Cola Scotland General Golf Racing Rugby = League Union Tennis Olympics Leading Articles Letters AL Yasmin Bruce = Anderson Joan Bakewell Terence Blacker Simon these between full that remind fa personal license key if wish continue = using Pro. 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Ready = respond with listing Two two Bent another flying elbows Liverpool West Fulham Sheffield = display spiky Bullard Celtic HIbernian Viner Walsh Alan Watkins Andreas Whittam Education Clearing Higher AZ = Unis Colleges Degrees Advice Overseas Students Careers Aerospace = Featured Gap Year Suppliers Graduate Options Schools MBAs Guide Further = Alevels Magazines Motoring Road Tests Money Property Mortgages Homes = Personal Finance Financial Directory Invest Save Loans Credit Pensions = Insurance Tax Jobs Travel Skiing Pacific Enjoyment Books Reviews Film = Food Drink Recipes Music Theatre Our Guarantee Contact Features Benefits Not Many File Types Fully = Portable Screen Shots for Linux Version History Fr EditPad Lite Classic = English Italiano Brasil ProFree ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C6C9E7.7A4CCE00-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 28 09:16:22 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A08016A4DE for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:16:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from cydem.org (S0106000103ce4c9c.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.27.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48AC943D53 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:16:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from soralx.cydem.org (unknown [192.168.0.249]) by cydem.org (Postfix/FreeBSD) with ESMTP id 58EEB90C31 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 02:16:21 -0700 (PDT) From: soralx@cydem.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 02:16:19 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200608280216.19718.soralx@cydem.org> Subject: portable audio player >= 18Gb X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:16:22 -0000 is anyone feeling kind enough today to recommend a good mp3/ogg player? ;) The basic requirement is that it should be just a standard umass device, so I could upload dirs with music files onto it, and then simply tell the device to play all files in a certain directory, or make some playlists and play them sequentially. None of that "synchronization" or id3-database crap. AFAIK, the only player that has more or less usable interface (the way I described) is the Cowon, model X5L. However, it'd be interesting to know if there are (or will be soon) any alternatives. Also, this player is not available locally, so I'd appreciate if someone who used it for a while could tell if they found anything bad about the device. [SorAlx] ridin' VN1500-B2 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 28 11:28:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E743516A4E1 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:28:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-listen@fabiankeil.de) Received: from smtprelay01.ispgateway.de (smtprelay01.ispgateway.de [80.67.18.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5CA43D67 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:28:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-listen@fabiankeil.de) Received: (qmail 11704 invoked from network); 28 Aug 2006 11:28:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) (775067@[217.50.145.224]) (envelope-sender ) by smtprelay01.ispgateway.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 28 Aug 2006 11:28:25 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:28:18 +0200 From: Fabian Keil To: soralx@cydem.org Message-ID: <20060828132818.396b266c@localhost> In-Reply-To: <200608280216.19718.soralx@cydem.org> References: <200608280216.19718.soralx@cydem.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 2.3.1 (GTK+ 2.8.19; i386-portbld-freebsd6.1) X-PGP-KEY-URL: http://www.fabiankeil.de/gpg-keys/freebsd-listen-2008-08-18.asc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_9I+tAV=5rI4Oqugo4tP_7ja"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=PGP-SHA1 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: portable audio player >= 18Gb X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:28:37 -0000 --Sig_9I+tAV=5rI4Oqugo4tP_7ja Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable soralx@cydem.org wrote: > is anyone feeling kind enough today to recommend a good mp3/ogg player? ;) AFAIK there are no good mp3/ogg players available yet, some are good enough though. > The basic requirement is that it should be just a standard umass device, > so I could upload dirs with music files onto it, and then simply tell the > device to play all files in a certain directory, or make some playlists > and play them sequentially. None of that "synchronization" or id3-database > crap. > AFAIK, the only player that has more or less usable interface (the way I > described) is the Cowon, model X5L. However, it'd be interesting to know > if there are (or will be soon) any alternatives. I know nothing about the Cowon X5L, but bought an iRiver H340 about a year ago. It has several flaws, but back then it was the best device I could find. I wouldn't be surprised if it still is. I wrote about the H340 in general at: http://www.fabiankeil.de/produkt-erfahrungen/iriver-h340.html and about using it with FreeBSD at: http://www.fabiankeil.de/freebsd/iriver-h340.html The texts are in German, you might have to run them through one of the website translation services. Even if you decide to get a different player, I strongly suggest that you get one that can boot Rockbox. http://www.rockbox.org/ Fabian --=20 http://www.fabiankeil.de/ --Sig_9I+tAV=5rI4Oqugo4tP_7ja Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFE8tNXBYqIVf93VJ0RAt1BAKC1LTeMy0ikUnI71/stMQZZ8g/YqACfZaq1 bb2P1Mv5aHoHpC+ZhxAiV1A= =LUf/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_9I+tAV=5rI4Oqugo4tP_7ja-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 28 16:41:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C1D816A4DD for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:41:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nikolas.britton@gmail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5198543D55 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:41:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nikolas.britton@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so1746185wxd for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:41:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tMFhEVuYQh1XPvWctbaf61emIRmpP9hmOV7RQv0cXAxF5qLvW633Fvt73gLcHhoZHTk/wCEnZNYNd2RwRArDm/H9RKVz245OxzWAafrjGsXIpYCNw8OX3mLUFjwWfuSLfh0B7dqQLf/1k3MDeWu1GuLNipuFmGnrTGAts3G5iw4= Received: by 10.70.117.1 with SMTP id p1mr9567250wxc; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.49.3 with HTTP; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:39:46 -0500 From: "Nikolas Britton" To: "Fabian Keil" In-Reply-To: <20060828132818.396b266c@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200608280216.19718.soralx@cydem.org> <20060828132818.396b266c@localhost> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: portable audio player >= 18Gb X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:41:29 -0000 On 8/28/06, Fabian Keil wrote: > soralx@cydem.org wrote: > > > is anyone feeling kind enough today to recommend a good mp3/ogg player? ;) > > AFAIK there are no good mp3/ogg players available yet, > some are good enough though. > > > The basic requirement is that it should be just a standard umass device, > > so I could upload dirs with music files onto it, and then simply tell the > > device to play all files in a certain directory, or make some playlists > > and play them sequentially. None of that "synchronization" or id3-database > > crap. > > AFAIK, the only player that has more or less usable interface (the way I > > described) is the Cowon, model X5L. However, it'd be interesting to know > > if there are (or will be soon) any alternatives. > > I know nothing about the Cowon X5L, but bought an iRiver H340 about a > year ago. It has several flaws, but back then it was the best device > I could find. I wouldn't be surprised if it still is. > > I wrote about the H340 in general at: > http://www.fabiankeil.de/produkt-erfahrungen/iriver-h340.html > and about using it with FreeBSD at: > http://www.fabiankeil.de/freebsd/iriver-h340.html > The texts are in German, you might have to run them > through one of the website translation services. > > Even if you decide to get a different player, > I strongly suggest that you get one that can boot > Rockbox. http://www.rockbox.org/ > I have a Cowon iAUDIO 5 that works well enough with FreeBSD. It shows up on the system like a USB Flash drive would: umass0: COWON iAUDIO 5, rev 2.00/1.10, addr 2 da0 at umass-sim0 bus 0 target 0 lun 0 da0: Removable Direct Access SCSI-4 device da0: 40.000MB/s transfers da0: 992MB (2032384 512 byte sectors: 64H 32S/T 992C) # mount_msdosfs /dev/da0s1 /mnt/usbflash0/ # umount /mnt/usbflash0/ # camcontrol eject da0 Unit stopped successfully, Media ejected It does play ogg vorbis files but I haven't tested that feature and I remember having to upgrade it's firmware but can't remember why. Best of all is that it was ~$100 when I bought it and that it has voice and 3.5" in-line jack so I can record (lectures, etc.) directly to mp3 format and it has a build in FM radio. -- BSD Podcasts @: http://bsdtalk.blogspot.com/ http://freebsdforall.blogspot.com/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 28 16:46:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F6016A4DA for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:46:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joe@joeholden.co.uk) Received: from elise.stf.rewt.org.uk (elise.stf.rewt.org.uk [82.152.108.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B154A43D5F for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:46:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joe@joeholden.co.uk) Received: from [82.152.108.166] (im.a.raver.not.a.fucking.drug-addict.be [82.152.108.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by elise.stf.rewt.org.uk (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7SGmNog077660; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:48:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from joe@joeholden.co.uk) Message-ID: <44F31DBA.3050501@joeholden.co.uk> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:45:46 +0100 From: Joe Holden User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nikolas Britton References: <200608280216.19718.soralx@cydem.org> <20060828132818.396b266c@localhost> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 OpenPGP: id=13A6D1E7; url=http://www.joeholden.co.uk/pubkey.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig549A45BC1C1F63A3EC65AF9F" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: portable audio player >= 18Gb X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: joe@joeholden.co.uk List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:46:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig549A45BC1C1F63A3EC65AF9F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nikolas Britton wrote: > On 8/28/06, Fabian Keil wrote: >> soralx@cydem.org wrote: >> >> > is anyone feeling kind enough today to recommend a good mp3/ogg >> player? ;) >> >> AFAIK there are no good mp3/ogg players available yet, >> some are good enough though. >> >> > The basic requirement is that it should be just a standard umass >> device, >> > so I could upload dirs with music files onto it, and then simply >> tell the >> > device to play all files in a certain directory, or make some >> playlists >> > and play them sequentially. None of that "synchronization" or >> id3-database >> > crap. >> > AFAIK, the only player that has more or less usable interface (the >> way I >> > described) is the Cowon, model X5L. However, it'd be interesting to >> know >> > if there are (or will be soon) any alternatives. >> >> I know nothing about the Cowon X5L, but bought an iRiver H340 about a >> year ago. It has several flaws, but back then it was the best device >> I could find. I wouldn't be surprised if it still is. >> >> I wrote about the H340 in general at: >> http://www.fabiankeil.de/produkt-erfahrungen/iriver-h340.html >> and about using it with FreeBSD at: >> http://www.fabiankeil.de/freebsd/iriver-h340.html >> The texts are in German, you might have to run them >> through one of the website translation services. >> >> Even if you decide to get a different player, >> I strongly suggest that you get one that can boot >> Rockbox. http://www.rockbox.org/ >> > > I have a Cowon iAUDIO 5 that works well enough with FreeBSD. It shows > up on the system like a USB Flash drive would: > > umass0: COWON iAUDIO 5, rev 2.00/1.10, addr 2 > da0 at umass-sim0 bus 0 target 0 lun 0 > da0: Removable Direct Access SCSI-4 device > da0: 40.000MB/s transfers > da0: 992MB (2032384 512 byte sectors: 64H 32S/T 992C) > # mount_msdosfs /dev/da0s1 /mnt/usbflash0/ > # umount /mnt/usbflash0/ > # camcontrol eject da0 > Unit stopped successfully, Media ejected > > It does play ogg vorbis files but I haven't tested that feature and I > remember having to upgrade it's firmware but can't remember why. Best > of all is that it was ~$100 when I bought it and that it has voice and > 3.5" in-line jack so I can record (lectures, etc.) directly to mp3 > format and it has a build in FM radio. > > I have an Iriver H140 (40gb hard disk device), shows up as above, external mass storage device (usb), plays mp3/ogg/wav etc etc etc. =A3190= as they're rare now (been discontinued) Thanks, Joe --------------enig549A45BC1C1F63A3EC65AF9F Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE8x2/dQJXshOm0ecRAqAxAJ4zutkWXYQC6nKO1K6t/wGUV59olwCdGctV ONzI6XbE6dpaztDKORaGDaM= =bRD2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig549A45BC1C1F63A3EC65AF9F-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 28 23:16:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 320ED16A4E2 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:16:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from www-data@mypix.ch) Received: from mypix.ch (mypix.ch [88.198.33.111]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13DC43D49 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:16:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from www-data@mypix.ch) Received: by mypix.ch (Postfix, from userid 33) id A960B149C494; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 01:14:56 +0200 (CEST) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20060828231456.A960B149C494@mypix.ch> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 01:14:56 +0200 (CEST) From: www-data@mypix.ch (www-data) Subject: Einladung von myPIX.ch X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:16:14 -0000 howdyyyyyyyyyy! =) gesell dich doch auch zu mypix is echt kuuuhl hier.. voll die netten menschen *fg* Diese Einladung wurde von li (User-ID: 1139) versandt. Sie ist wahrnehmbar unter: http://www.mypix.ch/register/1139 Sollte es sich hierbei um unzulässigen Inhalt handeln, wird gebeten, diese Mail an abuse@mypix.ch weiterzuleiten um Abhilfe zu schaffen. Wir danken für jegliche Bemühungen. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 29 05:10:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1935D16A4DD for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 05:10:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alive@dienub.org) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC97843D46 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 05:10:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from alive@dienub.org) Received: from m00h.dienub.org (dienub.org [83.88.67.155]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A9A3A50030; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:10:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (unknown [192.168.0.2]) by m00h.dienub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E4C1CC0B; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:10:50 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44F3CC59.4010207@dienub.org> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:10:50 +0200 From: "Daniel A." User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: soralx@cydem.org References: <200608280216.19718.soralx@cydem.org> In-Reply-To: <200608280216.19718.soralx@cydem.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: portable audio player >= 18Gb X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 05:10:57 -0000 soralx@cydem.org wrote: > is anyone feeling kind enough today to recommend a good mp3/ogg player? ;) > The basic requirement is that it should be just a standard umass device, > so I could upload dirs with music files onto it, and then simply tell the > device to play all files in a certain directory, or make some playlists > and play them sequentially. None of that "synchronization" or id3-database > crap. > AFAIK, the only player that has more or less usable interface (the way I > described) is the Cowon, model X5L. However, it'd be interesting to know > if there are (or will be soon) any alternatives. Also, this player is not > available locally, so I'd appreciate if someone who used it for a while > could tell if they found anything bad about the device. > > [SorAlx] ridin' VN1500-B2 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" An iPod with RockBox firmware does a really nice job, and it is exactly how you described it: - A umass device - Interface has a "file browser" where you can select which folder/file to play - id3-database is highly optional, and far from default. - RockBox is Open-Source. Besides, RockBox supports not just ogg and mp3, but also FLAC, and some others - I forget. If you dont like iPods, then you can buy an Archos or iRivier portable player. Anyway, just check their website - rockbox.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 29 13:07:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1C316A4DE for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:07:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sct3690@shaw.ca) Received: from pd5mo3so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA9A43D55 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:07:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sct3690@shaw.ca) Received: from pd2mr5so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr5so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.8]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J4R00HMYGH1Y460@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:07:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml2so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.146]) by pd2mr5so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J4R00G9FGH17M60@pd2mr5so.prod.shaw.ca> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:07:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.peyto.ca ([68.147.111.66]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with SMTP id <0J4R003SSGH0TEE0@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:07:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 7385 invoked from network); Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:07:48 +0000 Received: from celeron.intranet.peyto.ca (HELO celeron) (192.168.1.6) by homeserver.intranet.peyto.ca with SMTP; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:07:48 +0000 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:07:44 -0600 From: Samuel Chow To: soralx@cydem.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <008001c6cb6c$1e49b010$0601a8c0@celeron> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <200608280216.19718.soralx@cydem.org> Cc: Subject: Re: portable audio player >= 18Gb X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:07:50 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 3:16 AM Subject: portable audio player >= 18Gb > AFAIK, the only player that has more or less usable interface (the way I > described) is the Cowon, model X5L. However, it'd be interesting to know > if there are (or will be soon) any alternatives. Also, this player is not > available locally, so I'd appreciate if someone who used it for a while > could tell if they found anything bad about the device. I own a Cowon 30G X5 (not L), and I love it. It plays FLAC with the original firmware -- an important feature that appeals to a quality freak like me. The only inconvenient is that you need to attach a small subpack in order to charge and access the device. I have more than once temporary misplaced this small piece of hardware. Other than that, I absolutely love the X5. --- Samuel Chow Segmentation Fault (core dumped) This message is displayed using recycled electrons. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 29 16:11:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B27916A4DA for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:11:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jakob.grimstveit@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7060443D68 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:11:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jakob.grimstveit@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id n15so238216nfc for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:11:22 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=anTC/tQy/d9EBgqjXRl6QqKyKjMBO3HgTmgnUcwWpPnjVvbj7uZyY5zB39T2+k67uHxOBNCANiGpBReLNgXX4nlq6PG5T2v88rVhiMj2EOk/7Lh5wVnVINmKHgwzhb5igpuFrAlIjuNnl4+1ojbMKC2V4vI9KFkB9suSMZydKZg= Received: by 10.49.26.18 with SMTP id d18mr1334320nfj; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.54.20 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <77d930220608290911r56dabeean4c940c4107e19c1c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 18:11:22 +0200 From: "Jakob Breivik Grimstveit" Sender: jakob.grimstveit@gmail.com To: "soralx@cydem.org" In-Reply-To: <200608280216.19718.soralx@cydem.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200608280216.19718.soralx@cydem.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4c3e33c7ec3755d1 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: portable audio player >= 18Gb X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:11:27 -0000 On 8/28/06, soralx@cydem.org wrote: > is anyone feeling kind enough today to recommend a good mp3/ogg player? Perhaps an iPod using Rockbox is an alternative? Then you should be able to play FLAC, AAC, OGG, as well as the usual formats. See I will test this setup myself in a little week, when I'm back from hospital (wlan, yay!). -- Jakob Breivik Grimstveit - http://grimstveit.no/jakob - +47 48298152 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 30 23:27:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB33116A4DE for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:27:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mycroft@MIT.EDU) Received: from biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (BISCAYNE-ONE-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D60243D66 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:27:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mycroft@MIT.EDU) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.9.2) with ESMTP id k7UNRYjH010754; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from multics.mit.edu (MULTICS.MIT.EDU [18.187.1.73]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as mycroft@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.4) with ESMTP id k7UNRNKe019002 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mycroft@localhost) by multics.mit.edu (8.12.9.20060308) id k7UNRN7C000725; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:27:23 -0400 From: "Charles M. Hannum" To: netbsd-users@netbsd.org Message-ID: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 1.217 X-Spam-Level: * (1.217) X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 Cc: misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:27:36 -0000 The NetBSD Project has stagnated to the point of irrelevance. It has gotten to the point that being associated with the project is often more of a liability than an asset. I will attempt to explain how this happened, what the current state of affairs is, and what needs to be done to attempt to fix the situation. As one of the 4 originators of NetBSD, I am in a fairly unique position. I am the only one who has continuously participated and/or watched the project over its entire history. Many changes have taken place, and at the same time many things have remained the same -- including some of our early mistakes. I'd like to say that I'm some great visionary, who foresaw the whole OSS market, but the fact is that's BS. When we started the project, Linux and 386BSD were both little hobbyist systems, both pretty buggy, and both lacking a lot of important hardware support. Mostly we were scratching an itch: there was no complete package of 386BSD plus the necessary patches to make it run on more systems and fix bugs, and there was no sign that Bill Jolitz was going to resurface and do anything. Much of the project structure evolved because of problems we had early on. Probably our best choice was to start using central version control right off; this has enabled a very wide view of the code history and (eventually) made remote collaboration with a large number of developers much easier. Some other things we fudged; e.g. Chris got tired of being the point man for everything, and was trying to graduate college, so we created an internal "cabal" for managing the project, which became known as the "core group". Although the web was very new, we set up a web site fairly early, to disseminate information about the project and our releases. Much of this early structure (CVS, web site, cabal, etc.) was copied verbatim by other open source (this term not being in wide use yet) projects -- even the form of the project name and the term "core". This later became a kind of standard template for starting up an open source project. Unfortunately, we made some mistakes here. As we've seen over the years, one of the great successes of Linux was that it had a strong leader, who set goals and directions, and was able to get people to do what he wanted -- or find someone else to do it. This latter part is also a key element; there was no sense that anyone else "owned" a piece of Linux (although de facto "ownership" has happened in some parts); if you didn't produce, Linus would use someone else's code. If you wanted people to use your stuff, you had to keep moving. NetBSD did not have this. Partly due to lack of people, and partly due to a more corporate mentality, projects were often "locked". One person would say they were working on a project, and everyone else would be told to refer to them. Often these projects stagnated, or never progressed at all. If they did, the motivators were often very slow. As a result, many important projects have moved at a glacial pace, or never materialized at all. I'm sorry to say that I helped create this problem, and that most of the projects which modeled themselves after NetBSD (probably due to its high popularity in 1993 and 1994) have suffered similar problems. FreeBSD and XFree86, for example, have both forked successor projects (Dragonfly and X.org) for very similar reasons. Unfortunately, these problems still exist in the NetBSD project today, and nothing is being done to fix them. -- I won't attempt to pin blame on any specific people for this, except to say that some of it is definitely my fault. It's only in retrospect that I see so clearly the need for a very strong leader. Had I pursued it 10 years ago, things might be very different. Such is life. But let's talk about the situation today. Today, the project is run by a different cabal. This is the result of a coup that took place in 2000-2001, in which The NetBSD Foundation was taken over by a fraudulent change of the board of directors. (Note: It's probably too late for me to pursue any legal remedy for this, unfortunately.) Although "The NetBSD Project" and "The NetBSD Foundation" were intended from the start to be separate entities -- the latter supplying support infrastructure for the former -- this distinction has been actively blurred since, so that the current "board" of TNF has rather tight control over many aspects of TNP. Were TNF comprised of a good set of leaders, this situation might be somewhat acceptable -- though certainly not ideal. The problem is, there are really no leaders at this point. "Goals" for releases are not based on customer feedback or looking forward to future needs, but solely on the basis of what looks like it's bubbled up enough that it might be possible to finish in time. There is no high-level direction; if you ask "what about the problems with threads" or "will there be a flash-friendly file system", the best you'll get is "we'd love to have both" -- but no work is done to recruit people to code these things, or encourage existing developers to work on them. This vacuum has contributed materially to the project's current stagnation. Indeed, NetBSD is very far behind on a plethora of very important projects. Threading doesn't really work across multiple CPUs -- and is even somewhat buggy on one CPU. There is no good flash file system. There is no file system journaling (except for LFS, which is still somewhat experimental). Although there's been some recent work on suspend support, it's still mostly broken. Power management is very primitive. Etc. Even new hardware support is generally not being originated in NetBSD any more; it's being developed by FreeBSD and OpenBSD, and being picked up later. (I think the only recent exception to this of any significance is Bluetooth support.) For these reasons and others, the project has fallen almost to the point of irrelevance. (Some people will probably argue that it's beyond that point, but I'm trying to be generous.) This is unfortunate, especially since NetBSD usage -- especially in the embedded space -- was growing at a good rate in 2000 and 2001, prior to the aforementioned coup. -- At this point most readers are probably wondering whether I'm just writing a eulogy for the NetBSD project. In some ways, I am -- it's clear that the project, as it currently exists, has no future. It will continue to fall further behind, and to become even less relevant. This is a sad conclusion to a project that had such bright prospects when it started. I admit that I may be wrong about this, but I assume that most people who have contributed to NetBSD, and/or continue to do so, do not desire to see the project wallow away like this. So I will outline what I think is the only way out: 1) There must be a strong leadership, and it is not the current one. The leadership must honestly want NetBSD to be a premier, world class system with leading edge features. The leadership must set aggressive goals, and actively recruit people to make them happen. 2) There must be no more "locking" of projects. Just because one person is supposedly working on a problem, that doesn't mean you shouldn't. If there ideas are dumb, or even just suboptimal, do it better! If there is no progress, hop on it. Don't wait for someone else. 3) The project must become an *actual* meritocracy, not what I call a "volumetocracy". Right now, the people who exert the most influence are often the people who produce the least useful product. Indeed, they are often people who produce little more than fluff (e.g. changing line-ending whitespace!), and often break things. 4) Speaking of which, there must be negative feedback to discourage people from breaking stuff. This has been a continual problem with certain "developers" for more than a decade. 5) There are a number of aspects of the NetBSD architecture that are flat out broken, and need serious rehabilitation. Again, the leadership needs to recruit people to do these things. Some of them include: * serious problems with the threading architecture (including the user-kernel interface), as mentioned earlier; * terrible support for kernel modules; * the horrible mess that is 32/64-bit compatibility, resulting in 32-bit apps often not working right on 64-bit kernels; and * unbounded maintenance work due to inappropriate and rampant use of "quirk" tables and chip-specific tables; e.g. in SCSI, ATAPI, IDE, ACPI and SpeedStep support. (I actually did much of this work for SCSI, but am not currently able to commit it.) 6) The existing NetBSD Foundation must be disbanded, and replaced with an organization that fulfills its original purpose: to merely handle administrative issues, and not to manage day-to-day affairs. The extra committees, which mostly do nothing, must be disbanded -- they serve only to obfuscate things. Everything else must revert to the historically separate entity, the NetBSD Project, to be managed based on technical merits. There must be no perceived glamour in participating in the Foundation; it must be composed of people doing it because they are dedicated and want to help the project. (I will note here that this is not due to bitterness over the coup. Keeping the NetBSD Project as an unincorporated association actually helps protect it.) 7) The "core" group must be replaced with people who are actually competent and dedicated enough to review proposals, accept feedback, and make good decisions. More to the point, though, the "core" group must only act when *needed* -- most technical decisions should be left to the community to hash out; it must not preempt the community from developing better solutions. (This is how the "core" group worked during most of the project's growth period.) 8) There must be a set of commit standards -- e.g. about when it is or is not acceptable to commit changes that do not change functionality; when multiple changed must be batched in one commit; etc. Right now it is difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. In addition, there must be standards of review. I must repeat a point I've made earlier. The current "management" of the project is not going to either fix the project's problems, or lead the project to solutions. They are going to maintain the status quo, and nothing else. If the project is to rise from its charred stump, this "management" must be disbanded and replaced wholesale. Anything less is a non-solution. -- To some of you, I would like to apologize. There *are* NetBSD developers doing good work even now. I'd like to particularly recognize and thank those working on kernel locking and UVM problems; wireless support (though I'm not sure what happened to my extensive set of rtw bug fixes); Bluetooth; G5; and improved ARM support. This is all good stuff. In the bigger picture, though, the project needs to do a lot more. -- - Charles Hannum - past founder, developer, president and director of The NetBSD Project and The NetBSD Foundation; sole proprietor of The NetBSD Mission; proprietor of The NetBSD CD Project. [I'm CCing this to FreeBSD and OpenBSD lists in order to share it with the wider *BSD community, not to start a flame war. I hope that people reading it have the tact to be respectful of their peers, and consider how some of these issues may apply to them as well.] From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 30 23:45:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A45416A4E5 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:45:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.227]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D43B043D46 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:45:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so384899wxd for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:45:09 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Ku77c/JddmLSYKH0roQk2RbgN8CigwBo04YRvNl+2t676h3Mq/rXpsyLhkJSagAFNZFen/jgmRSK9Eldxl9ClN56g7hOaN4jNHFTagmrqLvIIa5MfMb0FORxVqwcH8mPZqw04sPoYrwysUaIsFosywksSSODekqUcCmfI27IRNA= Received: by 10.90.117.11 with SMTP id p11mr54832agc; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.98.12 with HTTP; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8a0028260608301645i5edd967cufe889ed456262f46@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 00:45:09 +0100 From: "Jeff Rollin" To: "Charles M. Hannum" In-Reply-To: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:45:18 -0000 On 31/08/06, Charles M. Hannum wrote: > > The NetBSD Project has stagnated to the point of irrelevance. If true, unfortunate. A sad day. Jeff. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 00:47:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A42116A4DA for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 00:47:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andy.ball@earthlink.net) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C9543D67 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 00:47:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from andy.ball@earthlink.net) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=HH6WGD+XHEYIRi9SuI/yUgLYDA7I2V/GdJriQzofxjH4wKkEnWToJDUiWiHaq7DZ; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Cc:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [209.86.224.49] (helo=elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1GIai7-0000U5-4n; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:47:11 -0400 Received: from 207.230.16.44 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:47:11 -0400 Message-ID: <32560229.1156985231112.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:47:11 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Andy Ball To: "Charles M. Hannum" , netbsd-users@netbsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: f0109e4bd6a35484e9ef466adc09f07e7e972de0d01da9409be034463af6708a2df8816d57094c17350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.49 Cc: misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andy Ball List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 00:47:20 -0000 Hello Charles, Some parts of your message seemed to be flames resulting from some past personality conflict that I know nothing about, so I won't comment further on those. Clearly you are more familiar with BSD internals than I am. I imagine others will pickup various technical points such as LFS and threading. I can only write from my own personal perspective as just one ordinary user of NetBSD. CMH> The NetBSD Project has stagnated to the point of irrelevance. Relevance to whom? It's relevant to me because I use it every day. CMH> As one of the 4 originators of NetBSD, I am in a fairly unique > position. I am the only one who has continuously participated > and/or watched the project over its entire history. Sincere thanks for the contributions you have made to my favorite operating system. CMH> Power management is very primitive. Etc. I'm not sure what this means. All I can say is that it works for me: suspend and resume work on my laptop. I know that work is being done on PowerNow! for AMD K6-2+, Athlon etc. I don't presently use Intel chips, so I don't know about SpeedStep. Hopefully someone who knows will clarify this point. You make several references to a "flash-friendly file system", which I assume means one that somehow spreads out data to avoid wearing the carpet too thin. NetBSD works well with my flash cards and JumpDrive, but I would not want to use either for something heavy like swap because the nature of the technology (its finite number of write/erase cycles) does not suit that. That's not NetBSD's fault and does not pose a problem for me in any case. CMH> terrible support for kernel modules; I understand that other operating systems have loadable kernel modules. Perhaps NetBSD has them too. I don't know because I have never needed one. If I need a special device driver, I compile a new custom kernel. It's quick, easy (once you know how) and in my experience both painless and beneficial. NetBSD works very well for my modest server-side needs: it's fast, light, absolutely rock solid, consistent and does not make assumptions about the work that I need to do or the software that I will choose to install. As a desktop operating system it's not quite there yet (depending on the application). I understand that support for hardware accelleration of things like MPEG decode and 3D graphics are not yet working. I will be happy if someone corrects me on this point. One very underestimated assett of NetBSD is its user and developer community. The mailing lists and #netbsd on the freenode.net IRC network have provided me with far superior support than I have received from any proprietary software vendor and also better than other open-source products that I use. I have found the people there friendly, patient and very, very helpful. This is just my inital reaction to your post, which I fealt like sharing. - Andy Ball From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 00:50:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3466E16A4DA for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 00:50:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from MH@kernel32.de) Received: from crivens.terrorteam.de (crivens.terrorteam.de [81.169.171.191]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF46843D73 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 00:50:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from MH@kernel32.de) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by crivens.terrorteam.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10955457C; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:50:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at unixoid.de Received: from crivens.terrorteam.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (crivens.unixoid.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wYPl8urttKiB; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:50:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [212.91.238.249] (unknown [212.91.238.249]) by crivens.terrorteam.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308804576; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:50:31 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44F63251.2000405@kernel32.de> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:50:25 +0200 From: Marian Hettwer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Macintosh/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Charles M. Hannum" References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 00:50:40 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Charles, Charles M. Hannum wrote: > popularity in 1993 and 1994) have suffered similar problems. FreeBSD > and XFree86, for example, have both forked successor projects (Dragonfly > and X.org) for very similar reasons. I don't agree that Dragonfly is a successor of FreeBSD. Not yet. Dragonfly is nowhere near the state of FreeBSD 6.x Will it get there? Time will tell... > > Were TNF comprised of a good set of leaders, this situation might be > somewhat acceptable -- though certainly not ideal. The problem is, > there are really no leaders at this point. "Goals" for releases are not > based on customer feedback or looking forward to future needs, but > solely on the basis of what looks like it's bubbled up enough that it > might be possible to finish in time. There is no high-level direction; > if you ask "what about the problems with threads" or "will there be a > flash-friendly file system", the best you'll get is "we'd love to have > both" -- but no work is done to recruit people to code these things, or > encourage existing developers to work on them. > This would be the very same with Linux, if there would be the same amount of developers as in NetBSD. I promise that. I do know this attidute from reading FreeBSD mailing lists. However, this is pretty natural for OSS projects. If you don't have a guy/girl who's doing the job, the wishlist gets long and the manpower gets short. It is like that... and it's hard to change. Myself, I would like to have an easy to setup fully automated, serial console controlled, installation system of FreeBSD and OpenBSD. This doesn't exists. So it's in the end up to me to make up my mind, if nobody else does. > This vacuum has contributed materially to the project's current > stagnation. Indeed, NetBSD is very far behind on a plethora of very > important projects. Threading doesn't really work across multiple CPUs > -- and is even somewhat buggy on one CPU. There is no good flash file It is like that in Linux too, more or less. So don't worry ;-) > For these reasons and others, the project has fallen almost to the point > of irrelevance. (Some people will probably argue that it's beyond that > point, but I'm trying to be generous.) This is unfortunate, especially > since NetBSD usage -- especially in the embedded space -- was growing at > a good rate in 2000 and 2001, prior to the aforementioned coup. > Avocent's KVM over IP boards are based on NetBSD for instance :) > > 5) There are a number of aspects of the NetBSD architecture that are > flat out broken, and need serious rehabilitation. Again, the > leadership needs to recruit people to do these things. Some of them > include: > > * serious problems with the threading architecture (including the > user-kernel interface), as mentioned earlier; > * terrible support for kernel modules; > * the horrible mess that is 32/64-bit compatibility, resulting in > 32-bit apps often not working right on 64-bit kernels; and > * unbounded maintenance work due to inappropriate and rampant use of > "quirk" tables and chip-specific tables; e.g. in SCSI, ATAPI, IDE, > ACPI and SpeedStep support. (I actually did much of this work for > SCSI, but am not currently able to commit it.) > You really don't want to compare these facts against Linux. I promise you, despite how popular Linux is, they have the very same problems, and IMHO it's even worse. Much worse. The only luck the Linux project has, is a whole lot of more developers than any of the BSD's projects have. Does this produce better code? No! Does this produce more features? Yes. Does this produce a faster OS? Probably Yes. But under the hood, Linux is completely screwed. Ever tried to set up bonding (aka trunk(4)) ? You don't want to! It works, okay, but it's a rocky road... > [I'm CCing this to FreeBSD and OpenBSD lists in order to share it with > the wider *BSD community, not to start a flame war. I hope that people > reading it have the tact to be respectful of their peers, and consider > how some of these issues may apply to them as well.] > > I hope people did. Although I doubt that much read that far. You said true words, and false, and sometimes it looked like a flame war. But all in all, it was very sad to read. Go back to your work, and start changing things. Don't stop.. Keep on! best regards, Marian, FreeBSD and OpenBSD user/advocate (but payed at work to use Debian GNU/Linux...) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFE9jJPgAq87Uq5FMsRAlSrAJ9ZTsNd8bh/szNUFooKe7EHugvDEQCgjs5w c3g8J3xKio5/zRnKkE1bjdA= =0PPc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 02:23:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C45EA16A4DD for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:23:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from openbsdmisc@breeno.net) Received: from spunkymail-a11.dreamhost.com (sd-green-bigip-176.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.176]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A13F43D46 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:23:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from openbsdmisc@breeno.net) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (static24-72-118-207.regina.accesscomm.ca [24.72.118.207]) by spunkymail-a11.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE243B6BCA; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44F64803.1000802@breeno.net> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:22:59 -0600 From: Breen Ouellette User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Windows/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Charles M. Hannum" References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:23:02 -0000 Charles M. Hannum wrote: > [I'm CCing this to FreeBSD and OpenBSD lists in order to share it with > the wider *BSD community, not to start a flame war. I hope that people > reading it have the tact to be respectful of their peers, and consider > how some of these issues may apply to them as well.] This is completely irrelevant to OpenBSD, except in that it seems to vindicate Theo de Raadt for the crap he went through when he was ousted from the NetBSD project. What possessed you to post this to an OpenBSD list? Now, thanks to the cross posting, the misc@openbsd.org list gets to endure a bunch of cross posts from NetBSD users and FreeBSD users on topics which are completely outside the scope of this list. Great. If you don't like the direction (or lack of it) that the NetBSD project is taking, and since your post indirectly talks up nearly every aspect of OpenBSD that Theo implemented to escape the problems he encountered with NetBSD, while simultaneously talking down a lot of the politics within NetBSD that Theo has complained about, maybe you need to take your reasoning one step further and follow Theo's lead - fork NetBSD. Whining on *BSD lists is not going to get you where you want to go. You might as well pray to a god to send NetBSD a messiah. If you want a leader then be a leader. I could go on, but then I am just exacerbating the problem. This really isn't relevant to OpenBSD, and I urge other lists' users to consider whether CCing your reply back to misc@openbsd.org is relevant. Thanks in advance for your consideration. Breen Ouellette From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 03:09:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35AAD16A4DA for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 03:09:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from schwarze@usta.de) Received: from smtp1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (smtp1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.185.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B68ED43D45 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 03:09:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from schwarze@usta.de) Received: from hekate.usta.de (asta-nat.asta.uni-karlsruhe.de [172.22.63.82]) by smtp1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtp (Exim 4.50 #1) id 1GIcwA-00040q-7j; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 05:09:50 +0200 Received: from donnerwolke.usta.de ([172.24.96.3]) by hekate.usta.de with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1GIcw9-0000Yz-GX; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 05:09:49 +0200 Received: from selene.usta.de ([172.24.96.2] helo=usta.de) by donnerwolke.usta.de with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1GIcw9-0007ls-ND; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 05:09:49 +0200 Received: from schwarze by usta.de with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1GIcw9-0005jq-C9; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 05:09:49 +0200 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 05:09:49 +0200 From: Ingo Schwarze To: misc@openbsd.org Message-ID: <20060831030949.GI1353@selene.usta.de> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <44F64803.1000802@breeno.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44F64803.1000802@breeno.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 03:09:53 -0000 Breen Ouellette wrote on Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 08:22:59PM -0600: > This really isn't relevant to OpenBSD, schwarze@athene $ head -n2 /var/run/dmesg.boot OpenBSD 3.9-stable (GENERIC) #2: Wed Aug 30 16:53:43 CEST 2006 schwarze@athene.usta.de:/usr/src/sys/arch/i386/compile/GENERIC schwarze@athene $ cd /usr/src/sys/dev schwarze@athene $ cvs log > cvs.log 2>&1 schwarze@athene $ grep -ic 'from.*netbsd' cvs.log 2382 schwarze@athene $ cvs log -d \>2001-09-01 > cvs-new.log 2>&1 schwarze@athene $ grep -ic 'from.*netbsd' cvs-new.log 1156 schwarze@athene $ grep -c ^revision cvs-new.log 21719 I'm not quite sure _major_ disruptions to one *BSD are irrelevant to the others. By the way, schwarze@athene $ grep -ic 'from.*freebsd' cvs-new.log 469 schwarze@athene $ grep -ic 'from.*linux' cvs-new.log 90 schwarze@athene $ grep -ic 'netbsd' cvs-new.log 2024 schwarze@athene $ grep -ic 'freebsd' cvs-new.log 784 schwarze@athene $ grep -ic 'linux' cvs-new.log 193 In any case, it would hardly be good news should any other free project fail, whatever may have happened in the past. Even if there is some competition among various projects, one's loss rarely is anybody else's win, when free software is concerned. Ok, i'm not a developer; so i shall go back to lurking now. -- Ingo Schwarze Serverbetrieb usta.de / studis.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 03:27:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2666F16A4DA for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 03:27:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from acruhl@gmail.com) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 926D643D58 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 03:27:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from acruhl@gmail.com) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so254482nzn for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:27:22 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tOwjRKL5klT1uSZZP+xEr5C0IVvTK9v9L5+QfSnB4FjvZh8FshcyJ9j/jHQ44QLtQA4dFXfhnutAKEGP1yr/Dh90qDTmQOljORN1HKlacDBkd4Xz/0qs1zjt7VsylSZUxavjg2ggeoHK7gwc2+En1vDdy0qOp7Lqpp2wek8FhU4= Received: by 10.65.20.3 with SMTP id x3mr458721qbi; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.21.17 with HTTP; Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <78a2305a0608302027y228e1992kb9444bbc67b93fea@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:27:21 -0700 From: "Andy Ruhl" To: "Charles M. Hannum" In-Reply-To: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> Cc: misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 03:27:23 -0000 On 8/30/06, Charles M. Hannum wrote: > The NetBSD Project has stagnated to the point of irrelevance. It has Let me start by saying I'm probably not qualified to reply to this thread, but I was never worried about making a fool out of myself before so here goes... I am a former user of FreeBSD and occasional user of OpenBSD. Haven't had much experience with either in the last year or so. So... Stagnant? Yes. Irrelevance? Possibly. But, BUT, can anyone tell me where I can get an OS that I can build easily from the same place to run on my NEC PDA as well as an old IBM PowerPC box I just happened to have sitting around and doing nothing else? And I'm typing this now on an AMD64 box that ran stably long before FreeBSD did (yes, I tested both). Nobody else can say that. Is it relevant? It's funny how much more relevant NetBSD's philosophy becomes as i386 becomes irrelevant. While the others (FreeBSD in particular) seemed to be scrambling for another architecture, NetBSD just quietly supported them without any fanfare (IA-64 excluded, but it's more irrelevant than NetBSD!). There are strengths that go right down to the core of the project. They are still there. They won't ever be irrelevant. They just need to be built upon. The cleanliness, portability, and ease of use is there. So you're probably right. A strong leader is needed to recruit people to complete new projects and generally keep things relevant. If it's a people problem, I hope someone can fix it. Too bad the guy who used to say "I probably don't know what I'm talking about" isn't here to comment. Andy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 05:01:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1F416A4DD for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 05:01:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tony@servacorp.com) Received: from mail14c.g14.rapidsite.net (mail14c.g14.rapidsite.net [128.121.64.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B7B9D43D4C for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 05:01:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tony@servacorp.com) Received: from mx19.mlpsca01.us.mxservers.net.64.121.128.in-addr.arpa (128.121.64.139) by mail14c.g14.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.95vs) with SMTP id 4-045058484; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 01:01:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.servacorp.com [204.202.14.242] (HELO LAPTONY) by mx19.mlpsca01.us.mxservers.net (mxl_mta-1.3.8-10p4) with SMTP id 42c66f44.13983.375.mx19.mlpsca01.us.mxservers.net; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 00:57:08 -0400 (EDT) From: To: "Andy Ruhl" , "Charles M. Hannum" Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 00:01:07 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <78a2305a0608302027y228e1992kb9444bbc67b93fea@mail.gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Spam: [F=0.0688487168; heur=0.500(-24700); stat=0.047; spamtraq-heur=0.599(2006083020)] X-MAIL-FROM: X-SOURCE-IP: [204.202.14.242] X-Loop-Detect: 1 X-DistLoop-Detect: 1 Cc: misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: RE: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Tony@ServaCorp.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 05:01:27 -0000 Andy Ruhl wrote: > > On 8/30/06, Charles M. Hannum wrote: > > The NetBSD Project has stagnated to the point of irrelevance. It has > > Let me start by saying I'm probably not qualified to reply to this > thread, but I was never worried about making a fool out of myself > before so here goes... > > I am a former user of FreeBSD and occasional user of OpenBSD. Haven't > had much experience with either in the last year or so. > > So... > > Stagnant? Yes. Irrelevance? Possibly. > > But, BUT, can anyone tell me where I can get an OS that I can build > easily from the same place to run on my NEC PDA as well as an old IBM > PowerPC box I just happened to have sitting around and doing nothing > else? And I'm typing this now on an AMD64 box that ran stably long > before FreeBSD did (yes, I tested both). Nobody else can say that. Is > it relevant? It's funny how much more relevant NetBSD's philosophy > becomes as i386 becomes irrelevant. While the others (FreeBSD in > particular) seemed to be scrambling for another architecture, NetBSD > just quietly supported them without any fanfare (IA-64 excluded, but > it's more irrelevant than NetBSD!). > > There are strengths that go right down to the core of the project. > They are still there. They won't ever be irrelevant. They just need to > be built upon. The cleanliness, portability, and ease of use is there. > > So you're probably right. A strong leader is needed to recruit people > to complete new projects and generally keep things relevant. If it's a > people problem, I hope someone can fix it. > > Too bad the guy who used to say "I probably don't know what I'm > talking about" isn't here to comment. > > Andy With a straight line like that, I cannot resist: Seems like somebody is complaining that stability is the same thing as stagnating to the point of irrelevance. A chicken running around sans head is quite active. Not really the same thing as productive. Microsoft Windows goes patch-happy, and the rate for compromised machines goes to five cents each. I don't know what I'm talking about (no probably about it) but there's stuff running around considerably worse. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 07:34:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D77616A4DA for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:34:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mycroft@MIT.EDU) Received: from biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (BISCAYNE-ONE-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B0D43D53 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:34:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mycroft@MIT.EDU) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.9.2) with ESMTP id k7V7Yutt010385; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 03:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from multics.mit.edu (MULTICS.MIT.EDU [18.187.1.73]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as mycroft@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.4) with ESMTP id k7V7YmCT002201 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 03:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mycroft@localhost) by multics.mit.edu (8.12.9.20060308) id k7V7YlHl009388; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 03:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 03:34:47 -0400 From: "Charles M. Hannum" To: Tony@servacorp.com Message-ID: <20060831073447.GX10101@multics.mit.edu> References: <78a2305a0608302027y228e1992kb9444bbc67b93fea@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 1.218 X-Spam-Level: * (1.218) X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 Cc: Andy Ruhl , "Charles M. Hannum" , misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:34:58 -0000 On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 12:01:07AM -0500, Tony@servacorp.com wrote: > A chicken running around sans head is quite active. > Not really the same thing as productive. What you don't see is that NetBSD is the chicken in your analogy. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 08:13:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C269116A4DD for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:13:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from cydem.org (S0106000103ce4c9c.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.27.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD9C43D53 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:13:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from soralx.cydem.org (unknown [192.168.0.249]) by cydem.org (Postfix/FreeBSD) with ESMTP id EA6F4908AE for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 01:13:06 -0700 (PDT) From: soralx@cydem.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 01:13:04 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <200608280216.19718.soralx@cydem.org> <20060828132818.396b266c@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20060828132818.396b266c@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200608310113.05299.soralx@cydem.org> Subject: Re: portable audio player >= 18Gb X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:13:07 -0000 > Even if you decide to get a different player, > I strongly suggest that you get one that can boot > Rockbox. http://www.rockbox.org/ Valuable information, I wasn't aware of Rockbox. Merci to all who replied. BTW, if anyone is interested, I just tested one flash-based player with FBSD -- SanDisk Sansa m250 (2Gb). The sound quality is not super great, but passable. An OK player over all (quite nice, actually), and inexpensive. Best of all, it's a standard umass device, and builds mp3 database itself, without any software on the host -- just copy mp3's. And even understands playlists (extended m3u; however, pipe *.m3u through unix2dos). [SorAlx] ridin' VN1500-B2 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 13:24:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153C316A4DA for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:24:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tg@66h.42h.de) Received: from hephaistos.unixforge.de (unixforge.de [85.214.23.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541B643D4C for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:24:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tg@66h.42h.de) Received: from herc.66h.42h.de (herc.vpn.gecko.ig3.net [192.168.100.7]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "herc.66h.42h.de", Issuer "CA Cert Signing Authority" (verified OK)) by hephaistos.unixforge.de (Sendmail) with ESMTP id 03C56140D8; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:24:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from odem.66h.42h.de (root@odem.mirbsd.org [IPv6:2001:6f8:94d:4:2c0:9fff:fe1a:6a01]) by herc.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k7VDNZ5d001411 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:23:36 GMT Received: from odem.66h.42h.de (tg@localhost.66h.42h.de [IPv6:::1]) by odem.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k7VDNYrP024404 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:23:34 GMT Received: (from tg@localhost) by odem.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k7VDNRN3014544; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:23:27 GMT Received: by S/MIME Plugin for MirBSD 9 Kv#9s81-stable-20060819 i386; Thu Aug 31 13:23:26 UTC 2006 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:23:26 +0000 (UTC) From: Thorsten Glaser X-X-Sender: tg@odem.66h.42h.de To: netbsd-users@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> X-Message-Flag: Your mailer is broken. Get an update at http://www.washington.edu/pine/getpine/pcpine.html for free. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:24:11 -0000 Benny Siegert dixit: > A very pessimistic article but well worth a read: > > http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-users/2006/08/30/0016.html You could've just replied to it so that the References: header can be perused. I've changed this mail to reply to it for threading. Charles M. Hannum dixit: >Much of this early structure (CVS, web site, cabal, etc.) was copied >verbatim by other open source (this term not being in wide use yet) >projects -- even the form of the project name and the term "core". This >later became a kind of standard template for starting up an open source >project. > >Unfortunately, we made some mistakes here. As we've seen over the >years, one of the great successes of Linux was that it had a strong >leader, who set goals and directions, and was able to get people to do >what he wanted -- or find someone else to do it. On the other hand, the "bazaar" model of Linux leads to bad code and no well-defined APIs. While it's true that the "core-team" model _might_ benefit from a strong leadership, care should be taken to avoid Linux' "success" because it'll be its failure soon enough. (I mean, hey, 5 new kernels in 2 days, wtf?) Nick Guenther dixit: > Um. Wow. I think Theo wins. OpenBSD has had MicroBSD forked off twice, MirOS and ekkoBSD too. Travers Buda dixit: > As for Charles M. Hannum: fork! I don't think so, as long as he can improve the inner status of the NetBSD project. Forking is the solution if you're outside, want to improve and are ignored, or, if you're inside but don't see your interesting new ideas being accepted well or fitting within the project's overall policy (DragonFly). Andy Ball dixit: > suspend and resume work on my laptop. I know that work is being done = =20 > on PowerNow! for AMD K6-2+, Athlon etc. Incidentally, Martin V=E9giard's PowerNow work showed up in OpenBSD and FreeBSD=AE first, in NetBSD=AE last. @OpenBSD people: I did leave this mailing list, I'm just keeping the Cc: list. bye, //mirabile --=20 I believe no one can invent an algorithm. One just happens to hit upon it when God enlightens him. Or only God invents algorithms, we merely copy the= m. If you don't believe in God, just consider God as Nature if you won't deny existence.=09=09-- Coywolf Qi Hunt From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 13:54:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41F7B16A4DA for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:54:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from harpalus.como@gmail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A31143D45 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:54:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from harpalus.como@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so622873wxd for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 06:54:31 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ki+oHLcMMMPMB3Y8vUurLzl+DZlLkpAgeoZFGRR1pJbBD5UIc2KD3VC2+4uYQ0abXWzKEeVWjGN/zEIIwREfHtb27Q5iXuZVRqeKZUjzP6YuWwIC85NnPcVMIWUtPAMibu3pDGehUc4zHIEWrnvMnZzrdwvpmfAxzFx+6fOtG/0= Received: by 10.70.60.7 with SMTP id i7mr407296wxa; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 06:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.78.9 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 06:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:54:31 -0400 From: "Harpalus a Como" To: "Thorsten Glaser" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:54:33 -0000 I'm just a lurker on the OpenBSD list, but I think Charles is right about Linux. The code is better then people give it credit for, and considering it's vast popularity and what all it's accomplished, the "bazaar" model has worked wonders. I'm not advocating Linux, I'm just pointing out that considering where Linux is, where it's headed, who all is backing it, I really don't see it stagnating or dying anytime soon. If I'm correct, that's also what Charles thinks NetBSD needs among other things, to look at their model for inspiration. I agree. As Ingo said: I'm not a developer. Back to lurking. On 8/31/06, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > > Benny Siegert dixit: > > > A very pessimistic article but well worth a read: > > > > http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-users/2006/08/30/0016.html > > You could've just replied to it so that the References: header > can be perused. I've changed this mail to reply to it for threading. > > > Charles M. Hannum dixit: > > >Much of this early structure (CVS, web site, cabal, etc.) was copied > >verbatim by other open source (this term not being in wide use yet) > >projects -- even the form of the project name and the term "core". This > >later became a kind of standard template for starting up an open source > >project. > > > >Unfortunately, we made some mistakes here. As we've seen over the > >years, one of the great successes of Linux was that it had a strong > >leader, who set goals and directions, and was able to get people to do > >what he wanted -- or find someone else to do it. > > On the other hand, the "bazaar" model of Linux leads to bad code > and no well-defined APIs. While it's true that the "core-team" > model _might_ benefit from a strong leadership, care should be > taken to avoid Linux' "success" because it'll be its failure > soon enough. (I mean, hey, 5 new kernels in 2 days, wtf?) > > > Nick Guenther dixit: > > > Um. Wow. I think Theo wins. > > OpenBSD has had MicroBSD forked off twice, MirOS and ekkoBSD too. > > > Travers Buda dixit: > > > As for Charles M. Hannum: fork! > > I don't think so, as long as he can improve the inner status of > the NetBSD project. Forking is the solution if you're outside, > want to improve and are ignored, or, if you're inside but don't > see your interesting new ideas being accepted well or fitting > within the project's overall policy (DragonFly). > > > Andy Ball dixit: > > > suspend and resume work on my laptop. I know that work is being done > > on PowerNow! for AMD K6-2+, Athlon etc. > > Incidentally, Martin Vigiard's PowerNow work showed up in > OpenBSD and FreeBSD. first, in NetBSD. last. > > > @OpenBSD people: > > I did leave this mailing list, I'm just keeping the Cc: list. > > > bye, > //mirabile > -- > I believe no one can invent an algorithm. One just happens to hit upon it > when God enlightens him. Or only God invents algorithms, we merely copy > them. > If you don't believe in God, just consider God as Nature if you won't deny > existence. -- Coywolf Qi Hunt > > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 14:02:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A220F16A4DA for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:02:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3538143D45 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:02:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B30290C2B; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:02:45 -0300 (ADT) Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 92238-04; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:02:50 -0300 (ADT) Received: by hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1046) id A28EB291AFA; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:02:44 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE6E290C2B; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:02:44 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:02:44 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" X-X-Sender: freebsd@hub.org To: Harpalus a Como In-Reply-To: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:02:52 -0000 On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Harpalus a Como wrote: > I'm just a lurker on the OpenBSD list, but I think Charles is right about > Linux. The code is better then people give it credit for, and considering > it's vast popularity and what all it's accomplished, the "bazaar" model has > worked wonders. I'm not advocating Linux, I'm just pointing out that > considering where Linux is, where it's headed, who all is backing it, I > really don't see it stagnating or dying anytime soon. > > If I'm correct, that's also what Charles thinks NetBSD needs among other > things, to look at their model for inspiration. I agree. Just a stupid comment, but ... Linux is one kernel, multiple distributions ... BSD is, what, 4 kernels now? If we worked more together instead of as seperate camps, it might make things a bit easier, no? Put together a *BSD "core" ... representative from each camp and try and steer the *kernel* itself towards a more common BSD ... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 14:23:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB6916A4DE for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:23:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dereckhaskins@yahoo.com) Received: from web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.200.125]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DCC3443D4C for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:23:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dereckhaskins@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 27598 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Aug 2006 14:23:21 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=P1+xNdUYWSwc6D/LM/r+b/S625SLffzPkfG/KBsGfQvdG1T2opTt2uoNibLCtOqVvSXyns1WVl7pz2dzikZo0sUGDQMHNPW9kviD4oSG+Y/WbHDuUb3uMPMGto2NR/SB1+m1oj3Mb+xt6dn1NATAumQLbwvcdZrFpS2ruwz6hOI= ; Message-ID: <20060831142321.27596.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [74.67.37.66] by web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:23:21 PDT Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:23:21 -0700 (PDT) From: dereck To: netbsd-users@netbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org In-Reply-To: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:23:23 -0000 > I'm just a lurker on the OpenBSD list, but I think > Charles is right about > Linux. The code is better then people give it credit > for, and considering > it's vast popularity and what all it's accomplished, > the "bazaar" model has > worked wonders. Well, the hype certainly put the zap on your head. "Wonders"? So, if I take a picture of a van Gogh painting, copy it as poorly as a three-year-old child, put an OSI license on it and call it "open van Gogh" that would be wonderous? They are copying known work, shooting for a target that has already been hit. Ignore IBM's and ESR's hype. Linux is a rather poor re-implementation. The BS is the only thing that is "accomplished," unless you count the illusions of grandeur as well. What I'd _really_ like to hear is the status of the total "move-over" to Linux that IBM announced (what was it?) 3 freakin years ago? How is that coming, old Big Bloser? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 15:24:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DABE16A4DD for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:24:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tg@66h.42h.de) Received: from hephaistos.unixforge.de (unixforge.de [85.214.23.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5158443D7C for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:24:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tg@66h.42h.de) Received: from herc.66h.42h.de (herc.vpn.gecko.ig3.net [192.168.100.7]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "herc.66h.42h.de", Issuer "CA Cert Signing Authority" (verified OK)) by hephaistos.unixforge.de (Sendmail) with ESMTP id D5016140F1; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:24:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from odem.66h.42h.de (root@odem.mirbsd.org [IPv6:2001:6f8:94d:4:2c0:9fff:fe1a:6a01]) by herc.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k7VFGOD6011342 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:16:25 GMT Received: from odem.66h.42h.de (tg@localhost.66h.42h.de [IPv6:::1]) by odem.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k7VFGMDd001411 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:16:24 GMT Received: (from tg@localhost) by odem.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k7VFGLHR020429; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:16:21 GMT Received: by S/MIME Plugin for MirBSD 9 Kv#9s81-stable-20060819 i386; Thu Aug 31 15:16:19 UTC 2006 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:16:19 +0000 (UTC) From: Thorsten Glaser X-X-Sender: tg@odem.66h.42h.de In-Reply-To: <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> Message-ID: References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> X-Message-Flag: Your mailer is broken. Get an update at http://www.washington.edu/pine/getpine/pcpine.html for free. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:24:19 -0000 Marc G. Fournier dixit: (Please don't keep individual persons in the Cc, only the lists, otherwise people will get the mails several times.) > Put together a *BSD "core" ... representative from each camp and try and steer > the *kernel* itself towards a more common BSD ... BSD is about an operating system, not about a kernel. //mirabile -- I believe no one can invent an algorithm. One just happens to hit upon it when God enlightens him. Or only God invents algorithms, we merely copy them. If you don't believe in God, just consider God as Nature if you won't deny existence. -- Coywolf Qi Hunt From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 15:30:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 341B616A4DE for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:30:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from acruhl@gmail.com) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C6B43D5E for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:30:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from acruhl@gmail.com) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so362561nzn for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:30:43 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WAel00JdVFlbhcolIGh1eD36jWAaEnG62mYFUXSr5eSD3XII0f/teDSGX/Reho++o3EhRyGt+dNPOH8tQauRO2m4fDEEEF2CpMj2AqIQCP5DWS/ETTDdl1KQczcrER7pPeFpJhPaWTgc6cNEyBN5DKFLjRtauemPv0xeUpYF/Q0= Received: by 10.65.116.7 with SMTP id t7mr1241292qbm; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.21.17 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <78a2305a0608310830l923f83pbd03b2c89d417505@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:30:42 -0700 From: "Andy Ruhl" To: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> Cc: Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:30:45 -0000 On 8/31/06, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > BSD is about an operating system, not about a kernel. Bingo. Good point. This point is lost sometimes. I believe NetBSD has the proper philosophy in regards to the entire OS as well. I don't want apache built in, for instance. Andy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 15:43:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 291DA16A4E0 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:43:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mureninc@gmail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3686243D53 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:43:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mureninc@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so656441wxd for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:43:50 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Fo4rzIQ6lhY36tka9pNg3L5g6Eh45fsP8AqYCTwKN/lXtkdedmDx7qtzy3pId2sLMH0NU0xpCj3w3IXSdpR772nN8cd/AKmnab92VAH4G4nKD3KQ0Lwxd9QmDxDZssDffCo9ePW8A04HjR0/xeppYeWjGARphTU63sNrGRa8lPg= Received: by 10.70.38.19 with SMTP id l19mr581800wxl; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.78.17 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:43:50 -0400 From: "Constantine A. Murenin" To: "Marc G. Fournier" In-Reply-To: <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:43:52 -0000 On 31/08/06, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Harpalus a Como wrote: > > > I'm just a lurker on the OpenBSD list, but I think Charles is right about > > Linux. The code is better then people give it credit for, and considering > > it's vast popularity and what all it's accomplished, the "bazaar" model has > > worked wonders. I'm not advocating Linux, I'm just pointing out that > > considering where Linux is, where it's headed, who all is backing it, I > > really don't see it stagnating or dying anytime soon. > > > > If I'm correct, that's also what Charles thinks NetBSD needs among other > > things, to look at their model for inspiration. I agree. > > Just a stupid comment, but ... Linux is one kernel, multiple distributions > ... BSD is, what, 4 kernels now? If we worked more together instead of as > seperate camps, it might make things a bit easier, no? Isn't there still fewer differences between *BSD operating systems than between different GNU/Linux distributions and kernel releases? :) > Put together a *BSD "core" ... representative from each camp and try and > steer the *kernel* itself towards a more common BSD ... I doubt that'll be productive -- NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD have all different goals... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 15:44:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554F816A4E8 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:44:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bqt@softjar.se) Received: from GW.SoftJAR.SE (205.225.216.81.static.spa.vf.siwnet.net [81.216.225.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B37243D49 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:44:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bqt@softjar.se) Received: from [172.17.3.209] (brdr-gw2.lu.switchcore.com [212.209.176.2]) by GW.SoftJAR.SE (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7EBB6275E; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:44:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44F703C0.30604@softjar.se> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:44:00 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7-1.1.fc4 (X11/20050929) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <78a2305a0608310830l923f83pbd03b2c89d417505@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <78a2305a0608310830l923f83pbd03b2c89d417505@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:44:06 -0000 Andy Ruhl wrote: > On 8/31/06, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > >> BSD is about an operating system, not about a kernel. > > Bingo. Good point. This point is lost sometimes. > > I believe NetBSD has the proper philosophy in regards to the entire OS > as well. I don't want apache built in, for instance. This is a silly definition (imho) which I first heard Stallman use, but seems to be spreading. Every book on operating systems that I own, or have read, defines an operating system as the kernel. Different applications, including even shells, are not the operating system. But that's just my opinion, of course. But most of all, I don't see the relevance of bringing the discussion down to a hair-splitting of what an operating system is. Johnny From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 15:48:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7FF16A4DD for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:48:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miod@online.fr) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B96B43D49 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:48:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from miod@online.fr) Received: from imp3-g19.free.fr (imp3-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.3]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4430175BE6; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:48:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: by imp3-g19.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id EB42492D6; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:06:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wwwgate162.motorola.com (wwwgate162.motorola.com [82.195.186.223]) by imp3-g19.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:06:01 +0200 Message-ID: <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:06:01 +0200 From: Miod Vallat To: Thorsten Glaser References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 82.195.186.223 Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:48:17 -0000 > > Put together a *BSD "core" ... representative from each camp and try and steer > > the *kernel* itself towards a more common BSD ... > > BSD is about an operating system, not about a kernel. This is a common misconception. BSD is about people pissing each other, because they don't want to admit that other people can have different needs, goals, or ways of designing code, than themselves. This is why all this talking about BSD projects needing to merge is complete bullshit. Miod From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 15:51:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA4616A4DA for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:51:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Gilles@Gravier.org) Received: from mailhost.gravier.org (mailhost.gravier.org [213.162.26.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C422C43D76 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:51:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Gilles@Gravier.org) Received: from [192.168.1.119] ([194.38.181.240]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailhost.gravier.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k7VFprNl022651 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:51:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44F70598.2040408@Gravier.org> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:51:52 +0200 From: Gilles Gravier Organization: Gravier Family User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Ruhl References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <78a2305a0608310830l923f83pbd03b2c89d417505@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <78a2305a0608310830l923f83pbd03b2c89d417505@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:51:58 -0000 Ahem... so no Apache... but why games, X11, compiler? After all, an OS isn't necessarily a development platform either. Or a graphics workstation environment either. Or a game platform either. As time goes by, the definition of what is part of an OS and what is a separate application evolves. We aren't living in 1960 anymore. We are in 2006. NetBSD definitely needs to stay up-to-date with what a fantastic operating system should be. Gilles. Andy Ruhl wrote: > On 8/31/06, Thorsten Glaser wrote: >> BSD is about an operating system, not about a kernel. > > Bingo. Good point. This point is lost sometimes. > > I believe NetBSD has the proper philosophy in regards to the entire OS > as well. I don't want apache built in, for instance. > > Andy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 15:57:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4A616A503 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:57:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from acruhl@gmail.com) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.239]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7866C43D4C for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:57:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from acruhl@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 68so240687wri for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:57:32 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=pC7LYQf06EDe/nyTBr32UX/W4AN3mypp0LELIN6MURtbH71vkn7M/+T5SYYrlHH/sCEOgfaI6Tb28HmCWOgIw3zTdg6C51Uuj98sUQnoWzqjQhjcVi/eFnqlb+VkcQ0eC+kt5Aa9nHfhjclEd7zHCz5A0cUALOy/QbRtIvXUoi8= Received: by 10.65.93.18 with SMTP id v18mr1372578qbl; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.21.17 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <78a2305a0608310857pd155323t68597a6e2380977c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:57:32 -0700 From: "Andy Ruhl" To: "Gilles Gravier" In-Reply-To: <44F70598.2040408@Gravier.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <78a2305a0608310830l923f83pbd03b2c89d417505@mail.gmail.com> <44F70598.2040408@Gravier.org> Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:57:34 -0000 On 8/31/06, Gilles Gravier wrote: > Ahem... so no Apache... but why games, X11, compiler? So don't install the games set, the X set, or the comp set if you don't want that stuff. I think the point I'm trying to make is, apache is certainly not something *most* people will use. There is argument in another thread about perl being included in the base distro, which is someting people will use more than apache probably. The reason why apache and perl shouldn't be included is because they are moving, 3rd party targets. They are better suited to pkgsrc. Andy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 16:05:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B55D16A4EC for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:05:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from d.zanon@infinito.it) Received: from vsmtp12.tin.it (vsmtp12.tin.it [212.216.176.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B11843D6E for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:05:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from d.zanon@infinito.it) Received: from [192.168.0.8] (82.56.176.159) by vsmtp12.tin.it (7.2.072.1) id 44F53D18000EE3D1; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:04:44 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4166472E-4FE1-4837-8CA1-B59D9ACC0599@infinito.it> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: davide zanon Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:04:41 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:05:10 -0000 On Aug 31, 2006, at 6:06 PM, Miod Vallat wrote: >> >> BSD is about an operating system, not about a kernel. > > This is a common misconception. > > BSD is about people pissing each other, because they don't want to > admit > that other people can have different needs, goals, or ways of > designing > code, than themselves. I'm noone to talk about this, but this is *one* of the problems that seem to emerge in every project I've heard of, and surely it affects lots of projects more than the BSDs. Everywhere there are people pissing each other because they don't understand that the Truth is never on the same side, if something called truth even exists. According to my experience as dumb user, I've never found such a helpful community as the NetBSD one, so I think that what stated is excessive and unfair. > This is why all this talking about BSD projects needing to merge is > complete > bullshit. The reason why merging is impossible or stupid has been said some million times... Different goals. It's only a positive thing that there is more than one project, also because of what you said above, although exaggerating. Do you think it would be better if everyone pursued the same things, knowing that users won't ever be a faceless mass of identical robots? > Miod davide zanon www.redmist.altervista.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 16:15:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0063316A4E0 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:15:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dking@ketralnis.com) Received: from ketralnis.com (melchoir.ketralnis.com [68.183.67.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F58943D60 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:15:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dking@ketralnis.com) Received: from [192.168.1.72] (pix.xythos.com [64.154.218.194]) (authenticated bits=0) by ketralnis.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k7VGFQ2b011386 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dking@ketralnis.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <200608310113.05299.soralx@cydem.org> References: <200608280216.19718.soralx@cydem.org> <20060828132818.396b266c@localhost> <200608310113.05299.soralx@cydem.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <6BD179FE-748A-432B-9825-F44AD0EF9805@ketralnis.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David King Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:15:17 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Subject: Re: portable audio player >= 18Gb X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:15:28 -0000 > Even if you decide to get a different player, > I strongly suggest that you get one that can boot > Rockbox. http://www.rockbox.org/ Hey, then I could update my iPod with rsync on my FreeBSD box instead of messing with AppleScript on the Mac in the corner. Thanks for the info :) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 16:17:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8444416A4DE for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:17:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Gilles@Gravier.org) Received: from mailhost.gravier.org (mailhost.gravier.org [213.162.26.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC48A43D7E for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:17:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Gilles@Gravier.org) Received: from [192.18.98.64] (brmea-proxy-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.64]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailhost.gravier.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k7VGH38h023741 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:17:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44F70B6F.20305@Gravier.org> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:16:47 +0200 From: Gilles Gravier Organization: Gravier Family User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (X11/20060730) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Ruhl References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <78a2305a0608310830l923f83pbd03b2c89d417505@mail.gmail.com> <44F70598.2040408@Gravier.org> <78a2305a0608310857pd155323t68597a6e2380977c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <78a2305a0608310857pd155323t68597a6e2380977c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:17:26 -0000 Andy Ruhl wrote: > > The reason why apache and perl shouldn't be included is because they > are moving, 3rd party targets. They are better suited to pkgsrc. > And of course, GCC isn't... a moving 3rd party target? Gilles. -- /*Gilles Gravier*/ *=* *Gilles@Gravier.org* *=* *http://www.gravier.org/* ICQ : *77488526* * || *MSN Messenger : Gilles@Gravier.org * *Skype : ggravier * || *Y! : ggravier || AOL : gillesgravier PGP Key ID : *0x8DE6D026* "Chastity is its own punishment." (/Solomon Short/) [/David Gerrold/] "De toutes les aberrations sexuelles, la chasteté est la plus aberrante." [Anatole France] From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 17:00:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EC9916A4DE for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:00:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6CE43D45 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:00:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 68so257415wri for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:00:15 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=NjcG64iUzPE/N0VEdzI8XTd3RZ3BQxExE+JuAVg3B60ekZmGIbqGNMf0fkGKW42QgexxPQJ+RQEGplN467ND9nqEpLqmSGLxmmWbB4uWMcsGBnrtx5/1lxF9U3a8f2eH2wIbdWdMHS6YaiZk3XicO5dxenoVpk+/pB6D1b/h/2Y= Received: by 10.90.83.14 with SMTP id g14mr249135agb; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.98.12 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8a0028260608311000j37f76935m9b9134d5f0887fa7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:00:15 +0100 From: "Jeff Rollin" To: "Gilles Gravier" In-Reply-To: <44F70B6F.20305@Gravier.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <78a2305a0608310830l923f83pbd03b2c89d417505@mail.gmail.com> <44F70598.2040408@Gravier.org> <78a2305a0608310857pd155323t68597a6e2380977c@mail.gmail.com> <44F70B6F.20305@Gravier.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Andy Ruhl , miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:00:17 -0000 On 31/08/06, Gilles Gravier wrote: > > > > Andy Ruhl wrote: > > > > The reason why apache and perl shouldn't be included is because they > > are moving, 3rd party targets. They are better suited to pkgsrc. > > > And of course, GCC isn't... a moving 3rd party target? > > Gilles. Good point. It's also licensed under that bad boy of the we're-proprietary-but-we-want-to-appear-friendly-to-open-source world, the General Public Licence. Jeff. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 17:20:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2CA116A4EB for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:20:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsidd120@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.191]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E60A43D68 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:20:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd120@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id g2so447804nfe for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:20:08 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=aDnmOfJY9jQYyMNvz5DV1gwdEhhVpABqIMnH0xybcO9F+V3h3BJXKO4ei0AA0bg/0XjGeXU7anvP7dP91PXdPNZesI/VI6RN4k7Bpmzd+J/q10VyIybFldJ2zNNEfXN9BwNzCEwzq4W9SbgUdjTjd2KyneSH1IQhURQb5xeUrPY= Received: by 10.48.230.18 with SMTP id c18mr1701538nfh; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.81.12 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <6a506d980608311020j156ac46cyb92f1c7bec80d439@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:50:07 +0530 From: "Rahul Siddharthan" Sender: rsidd120@gmail.com To: dereck In-Reply-To: <20060831142321.27596.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831142321.27596.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5b15ab6d131852fb Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:20:21 -0000 On 8/31/06, dereck wrote: > [Linux] are copying known work, shooting for a target > that has already been hit. Hit by Mac OS X, perhaps. Which I can't install on my computer even if I wanted to: Apple won't let me. The target -- a user-friendly, reliable unix -- hasn't been hit by anyone else. With today's Ubuntu, for example, I can plug in all the equipment I have -- memory sticks, digital cameras, whatever -- and it just works. If I pop in a CD-ROM it mounts automatically. If I pop in a DVD the DVD player opens. The only exception (out of the box) was my wireless PCMCIA card, but even that worked with ndiswrapper; installing the windows ndis driver was a single command. This sort of thing should be seen as essential -- today's computers are dynamic objects with peripherals being plugged in and removed all the time -- but, of the unixen, only Mac OS X handles it so easily. More importantly, the linux people have recognised this goal and worked towards it for years, via hal, dbus, etc, and it shows. Mac OS X hides its unix under the hood, but Linux has managed to reconfigure SysV-style Unix to behave well on modern desktop machines. The significance of this shouldn't be underestimated. But never mind all that: BSD types (I used FreeBSD for some years and still have Dragonfly on one partition) like to say how much more reliable BSD is. Linux's ext2/ext3 always comes in for particular scorn. Well, I tend to run unstable software and lately my hardware's getting unstable too -- so I have crashes now and then. On FreeBSD with UFS, more than once a crash totally hosed my system: I had to reinstall. People blamed it on ATA write-caching: the standard FreeBSD advice is "use SCSI". With linux/ext3 I've NEVER had a problem with a crash. The only time I got worried with the disk having mysterious timeout errors, it turned out to be bad sectors: a fsck with bad sector scan fixed that and I only lost one unimportant file. From my lurking on various lists, my impression is that UFS+softupdates is a horrendous mess that only Kirk McKusick understands (it seems I'm not the only one to suffer from trashed filesystems). If Linus gets hit by a bus, no problem for Linux, but if Kirk gets hit by a bus, better look for a new filesystem. The filesystem isn't the only thing: FreeBSD's USB drivers are (or were, last I checked) a disaster. You could panic the system just by unplugging at the wrong moment. I've never managed to do that with linux. Some of Linux's progress is indeed from corporate support, but much of it is from very smart individuals, like Stephen Tweedie, Andrew Morton, and, yes, Linus himself. Linus's "world domination" plans sounded amusing for years, but now it looks entirely possible. With the BSDs I can't see a role on the desktop. Even something like PC-BSD is where Linux was years ago. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 17:35:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618F616A4DF for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:35:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E012943D70 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:35:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 68so266352wri for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:35:36 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=hSPVEGHdzRUTdLtp9YojqFrkSB2bnphrdQUjqwA5Ajaehirv/6WJfH+KCwc50qdHX9GHJ3jzMss7YoBD579PIj5KBDH6xnuKzzTSsedZ8Vz3IgKUQiDaAYRGjhilrYkOuKMqcdy94m2a+qYDYFUWH4zz9deCHOaYJGcpsAcVWX8= Received: by 10.90.28.12 with SMTP id b12mr264058agb; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.98.12 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8a0028260608311033l7c16e7bq4ea5c87561095714@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:33:47 +0100 From: "Jeff Rollin" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" In-Reply-To: <6a506d980608311020j156ac46cyb92f1c7bec80d439@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831142321.27596.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6a506d980608311020j156ac46cyb92f1c7bec80d439@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, dereck Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:35:46 -0000 On 31/08/06, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > On 8/31/06, dereck wrote: > > [Linux] are copying known work, shooting for a target > > that has already been hit. > > Hit by Mac OS X, perhaps. Which I can't install on my > computer even if I wanted to: Apple won't let me. The > target -- a user-friendly, reliable unix -- hasn't been hit by > anyone else. > > With today's Ubuntu, for example, I can plug in all the > equipment I have -- memory sticks, digital cameras, > whatever -- and it just works. If I pop in a CD-ROM > it mounts automatically. If I pop in a DVD the DVD > player opens. The only exception (out of the box) > was my wireless PCMCIA card, but even that worked > with ndiswrapper; installing the windows ndis driver > was a single command. Not only that, but a knowledgeable user (on which people who "don't understand computers" would probably rely on for help with Windows too) can probably set up any Linux distro to work the same way with just a little effort. With other systems it's either a lot of effort, or it's simply impossible to do anything with the OS that the designers hadn't thought of. This sort of thing should be seen as essential -- > today's computers are dynamic objects with > peripherals being plugged in and removed all the time > -- but, of the unixen, only Mac OS X handles it > so easily. More importantly, the linux people have > recognised this goal and worked towards it for years, > via hal, dbus, etc, and it shows. Mac OS X hides > its unix under the hood, but Linux has managed to > reconfigure SysV-style Unix to behave well on > modern desktop machines. The significance of > this shouldn't be underestimated. I agree - you CAN live without it, but who wants to go back to a typewriter once they've learnt to use a word processor effectively? But never mind all that: BSD types (I used FreeBSD for > some years and still have Dragonfly on one partition) like > to say how much more reliable BSD is. Linux's ext2/ext3 > always comes in for particular scorn. Well, I tend to run > unstable software and lately my hardware's getting > unstable too -- so I have crashes now and then. > On FreeBSD with UFS, more than once a crash totally > hosed my system: I had to reinstall. People blamed it > on ATA write-caching: the standard FreeBSD advice is > "use SCSI". With linux/ext3 I've NEVER had a problem > with a crash. The only time I got worried with the disk > having mysterious timeout errors, it turned out > to be bad sectors: a fsck with bad sector scan fixed that > and I only lost one unimportant file. > > From my lurking on various lists, my impression is that > UFS+softupdates is a horrendous mess that only > Kirk McKusick understands (it seems I'm not the only one > to suffer from trashed filesystems). If Linus gets hit by a > bus, no problem for Linux, but if Kirk gets hit by a bus, > better look for a new filesystem. > > The filesystem isn't the only thing: FreeBSD's USB > drivers are (or were, last I checked) a disaster. You > could panic the system just by unplugging at the wrong > moment. I've never managed to do that with linux. > > Some of Linux's progress is indeed from corporate > support, but much of it is from very smart individuals, > like Stephen Tweedie, Andrew Morton, and, yes, > Linus himself. The only problem I have with corporate support is when it *doesn't* take you where you want to go. If Yahoo (to pick the one big vendor I remember making a big thing of using a BSD) don't reincorporate their changes, perhaps that's because the licence allows them not to? Linus's "world domination" plans sounded > amusing for years, but now it looks entirely possible. > With the BSDs I can't see a role on the desktop. Even > something like PC-BSD is where Linux was years ago. That's the one thing that always strikes me when people say "Linux will NEVER conquer the desktop" - no other open-source project would be taken seriously for saying so even by its own users, and most aren't even trying. My 2 pence, Jeff. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 18:39:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD91216A4DD for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:39:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D4D43D5C for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:39:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ps@mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 868F41A4DBE; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:39:56 -0700 From: Paul Saab To: Jeff Rollin Message-ID: <20060831183956.GA43568@elvis.mu.org> References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831142321.27596.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6a506d980608311020j156ac46cyb92f1c7bec80d439@mail.gmail.com> <8a0028260608311033l7c16e7bq4ea5c87561095714@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8a0028260608311033l7c16e7bq4ea5c87561095714@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:39:56 -0000 Jeff Rollin (jeff.rollin@gmail.com) wrote: > If Yahoo (to pick the one big vendor I remember making a big thing of using > a BSD) don't reincorporate their changes, perhaps that's because the license > allows them not to? If you think that Yahoo! has not given back to the FreeBSD project, then you are sorely mistaken. Let me count the ways that Yahoo! has given back. 1. Most of the freebsd cluster resides in a Yahoo! datacenter 2. Up until I left at the end of June, Yahoo had a team of 5 people working on FreeBSD and we gave back just about everything we were working on to the project. Now there are 4, but they are doing incredible work for FreeBSD. 3. NFS locking came from Yahoo! 4. SACK came from Yahoo! 5. Accept filters came from Yahoo! 6. AMD64 port came from Yahoo! 7. IA64 hardware and support came from Yahoo! pushing Intel 8. bce came from Yahoo/Iron port pushing on Broadcom to produce a driver 9. ciss came from Yahoo! 10. bge improvements and fixes came from Yahoo! 11. accept filters came from Yahoo! 12. Numerous private contracts to improve various drivers were funded by Yahoo! 13. A ton of ATA hardware was sent to sos to make sure drivers were supported and yahoo didn't even use most of those controllers. 14. Many other developers got hardware directly from Yahoo! 15. Intel supporting em on FreeBSD came from Yahoo! pressuring Intel 16. minidumps 17. twe/twa support came from Yahoo! pressuring 3ware I can go on, but my memory gets hazy after 6.5 years of working on FreeBSD for Yahoo, so before you go bashing Yahoo!, just know that there are plenty of people doing nothing but FreeBSD work at Yahoo! We never felt it necessary to actually note that code came from Yahoo! since most committers know that the code came from Yahoo! From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 18:48:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1443716A4DA for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:48:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D216643E3E for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:47:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 68so281698wri for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:47:49 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=PWVKo9POH3hvhrboSvOOORZDS5hA/HBtvZtAqMXtJVrcb3Vf+NiNsbZA+NLop2LCZY4/iq+4aEoC1nEl0DVjZE9gERbw1k8dOculzo1nlv6zlsi/y8tpAWyWuzCSB4m72pHh8KVIM9S/xx9FF9Gz7AGY67AtpxvyXJpF3gSRlo4= Received: by 10.90.55.19 with SMTP id d19mr305597aga; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.98.12 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8a0028260608311147n4cd9563hf816d2993edc2f17@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:47:48 +0100 From: "Jeff Rollin" To: "Paul Saab" In-Reply-To: <20060831183956.GA43568@elvis.mu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831142321.27596.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6a506d980608311020j156ac46cyb92f1c7bec80d439@mail.gmail.com> <8a0028260608311033l7c16e7bq4ea5c87561095714@mail.gmail.com> <20060831183956.GA43568@elvis.mu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:48:45 -0000 On 31/08/06, Paul Saab wrote: > > Jeff Rollin (jeff.rollin@gmail.com) wrote: > > If Yahoo (to pick the one big vendor I remember making a big thing of > using > > a BSD) don't reincorporate their changes, perhaps that's because the > license > > allows them not to? > > If you think that Yahoo! has not given back to the FreeBSD project, > then you are sorely mistaken. Let me count the ways that Yahoo! > has given back. As I said, Yahoo are the one big company I remember being cited as using a BSD. My point was not that "Yahoo does not give back to the FreeBSD project," but that the BSD licence *allows* them not to give back in a way that the GPL does not allow (say) Google not to give back to the Linux project(s). 1. Most of the freebsd cluster resides in a Yahoo! datacenter > 2. Up until I left at the end of June, Yahoo had a team of 5 people > working on FreeBSD and we gave back just about everything we were > working on to the project. Now there are 4, but they are doing > incredible work for FreeBSD. > 3. NFS locking came from Yahoo! > 4. SACK came from Yahoo! > 5. Accept filters came from Yahoo! > 6. AMD64 port came from Yahoo! > 7. IA64 hardware and support came from Yahoo! pushing Intel > 8. bce came from Yahoo/Iron port pushing on Broadcom to produce a driver > 9. ciss came from Yahoo! > 10. bge improvements and fixes came from Yahoo! > 11. accept filters came from Yahoo! > 12. Numerous private contracts to improve various drivers were funded by > Yahoo! > 13. A ton of ATA hardware was sent to sos to make sure drivers were > supported > and yahoo didn't even use most of those controllers. > 14. Many other developers got hardware directly from Yahoo! > 15. Intel supporting em on FreeBSD came from Yahoo! pressuring Intel > 16. minidumps > 17. twe/twa support came from Yahoo! pressuring 3ware > > I can go on, but my memory gets hazy after 6.5 years of working on > FreeBSD for Yahoo, so before you go bashing Yahoo!, just know that > there are plenty of people doing nothing but FreeBSD work at Yahoo! > We never felt it necessary to actually note that code came from > Yahoo! since most committers know that the code came from Yahoo! > If I were going to bash Yahoo!, I would probably pick some other aspect to moan about. Like! Those! El Reg! Yahoo! related! Headlines! That! Were! Funny! At First! But Got! Predictable! After a while! Jeff. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 19:26:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48BEC16A4DF for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:26:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mycroft@MIT.EDU) Received: from biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (BISCAYNE-ONE-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4DFB43D49 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:26:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mycroft@MIT.EDU) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.9.2) with ESMTP id k7VJQNuS005148; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:26:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from multics.mit.edu (MULTICS.MIT.EDU [18.187.1.73]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as mycroft@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.4) with ESMTP id k7VJQFU5023552 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mycroft@localhost) by multics.mit.edu (8.12.9.20060308) id k7VJQEmj028930; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:26:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:26:14 -0400 From: "Charles M. Hannum" To: Johnny Billquist Message-ID: <20060831192614.GA10101@multics.mit.edu> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <78a2305a0608310830l923f83pbd03b2c89d417505@mail.gmail.com> <44F703C0.30604@softjar.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44F703C0.30604@softjar.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Score: 1.217 X-Spam-Level: * (1.217) X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:26:37 -0000 On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 05:44:00PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Andy Ruhl wrote: > >On 8/31/06, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > > > >>BSD is about an operating system, not about a kernel. > > > >Bingo. Good point. This point is lost sometimes. > > > >I believe NetBSD has the proper philosophy in regards to the entire OS > >as well. I don't want apache built in, for instance. > > This is a silly definition (imho) which I first heard Stallman use, but > seems to be spreading. > Every book on operating systems that I own, or have read, defines an > operating system as the kernel. Different applications, including even > shells, are not the operating system. > > But that's just my opinion, of course. But most of all, I don't see the > relevance of bringing the discussion down to a hair-splitting of what an > operating system is. Actually, defining (poorly) the OS to include so much else has been a liability for NetBSD in many ways. It has massively slowed the adoption of new software versions (e.g. GCC), for one. It also contributed to the perception that a better package system and automatic updates were not a serious issue. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 19:39:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52EAE16A4E1; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:39:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (66-23-211-162.clients.speedfactory.net [66.23.211.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3AB443D46; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:39:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k7VJdPKD027984; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:39:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:38:45 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831183956.GA43568@elvis.mu.org> <8a0028260608311147n4cd9563hf816d2993edc2f17@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8a0028260608311147n4cd9563hf816d2993edc2f17@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200608311538.46509.jhb@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:39:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.3/1782/Thu Aug 31 12:54:15 2006 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Paul Saab Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:39:36 -0000 On Thursday 31 August 2006 14:47, Jeff Rollin wrote: > On 31/08/06, Paul Saab wrote: > > > > Jeff Rollin (jeff.rollin@gmail.com) wrote: > > > If Yahoo (to pick the one big vendor I remember making a big thing of > > using > > > a BSD) don't reincorporate their changes, perhaps that's because the > > license > > > allows them not to? > > > > If you think that Yahoo! has not given back to the FreeBSD project, > > then you are sorely mistaken. Let me count the ways that Yahoo! > > has given back. > > > As I said, Yahoo are the one big company I remember being cited as using a > BSD. My point was not that "Yahoo does not give back to the FreeBSD > project," but that the BSD licence *allows* them not to give back in a way > that the GPL does not allow (say) Google not to give back to the Linux > project(s). That's not true. If Google makes an enhancement to Linux that they only distribute internally, they are only required to make the source code available internally. You only have to give your patches to the folks you distribute the resulting binaries to. Thus, if you merely make appliances that manage/produce content and sell the content but not the appliances, you can mix propietary code with the GPL to your heart's content. But really, the economics of open source is actually more complicated than the GPL folks understand. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 20:13:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A2BA16A4DD for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:13:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.225]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAC6243D45 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:13:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so738126wxd for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:13:01 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=UC+WtMpV0SkiPfhYm2X7ql/pZ+QxezxiGeDgtahVws4fZ1vx3/B6jOAz5TNrOvxpkPvFwJstF+z7Afi5/vR0Km/vcrKEC+bwbXZrCn+8pKOvq/DEprJ2+ImDKRSAp0HKfSLLB+/P11O71UK3Zoo/okWF160HsMOWIO36EmZganM= Received: by 10.90.113.18 with SMTP id l18mr333867agc; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.98.12 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8a0028260608311311v224ee5baud24fcca650cdb892@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:11:31 +0100 From: "Jeff Rollin" To: "John Baldwin" In-Reply-To: <200608311538.46509.jhb@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831183956.GA43568@elvis.mu.org> <8a0028260608311147n4cd9563hf816d2993edc2f17@mail.gmail.com> <200608311538.46509.jhb@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Paul Saab , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:13:08 -0000 On 31/08/06, John Baldwin wrote: > > On Thursday 31 August 2006 14:47, Jeff Rollin wrote: > > On 31/08/06, Paul Saab wrote: > > > > > > Jeff Rollin (jeff.rollin@gmail.com) wrote: > > > > If Yahoo (to pick the one big vendor I remember making a big thing > of > > > using > > > > a BSD) don't reincorporate their changes, perhaps that's because the > > > license > > > > allows them not to? > > > > > > If you think that Yahoo! has not given back to the FreeBSD project, > > > then you are sorely mistaken. Let me count the ways that Yahoo! > > > has given back. > > > > > > As I said, Yahoo are the one big company I remember being cited as using > a > > BSD. My point was not that "Yahoo does not give back to the FreeBSD > > project," but that the BSD licence *allows* them not to give back in a > way > > that the GPL does not allow (say) Google not to give back to the Linux > > project(s). > > That's not true. If Google makes an enhancement to Linux that they only > distribute internally, they are only required to make the source code > available internally. You only have to give your patches to the folks > you distribute the resulting binaries to. I'm perfectly well aware of that too. Thus, if you merely make appliances > that manage/produce content and sell the content but not the appliances, > you > can mix propietary code with the GPL to your heart's content. But really, > the economics of open source is actually more complicated than the GPL > folks > understand. I think the GPL folks understand the economics of open source a lot better than the anti-GPL folks give them credit for. Jeff. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 20:16:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68BC816A4DF for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:16:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from acruhl@gmail.com) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED6943D6B for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:16:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from acruhl@gmail.com) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 13so422656nzn for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:16:05 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=qcTFz5M4wlxdwXq0tQ6gpyCDAEEEbEHfkfRN8S2CfHo329wqnr7p7wZpms7bg/21Lz3V6Yk8AypkXVpJtmwTBpXmPkzoAeK0yswNSTMIhVTd7GPRg0QjB5iUQpZ25d1qcZfNli1y2vspkqsh9uLY1fTbDBuNU89DpaZwqwnApuc= Received: by 10.65.114.16 with SMTP id r16mr1724735qbm; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.21.17 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <78a2305a0608311316pf9bdffdy9557847ed3483d9b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:16:04 -0700 From: "Andy Ruhl" To: "Charles M. Hannum" In-Reply-To: <20060831192614.GA10101@multics.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <78a2305a0608310830l923f83pbd03b2c89d417505@mail.gmail.com> <44F703C0.30604@softjar.se> <20060831192614.GA10101@multics.mit.edu> Cc: Johnny Billquist , misc@openbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:16:11 -0000 On 8/31/06, Charles M. Hannum wrote: > Actually, defining (poorly) the OS to include so much else has been a > liability for NetBSD in many ways. It has massively slowed the adoption > of new software versions (e.g. GCC), for one. It also contributed to > the perception that a better package system and automatic updates were > not a serious issue. It would be interesting to hear more discussion on this. If there is a continuum that is what the definition of an OS is, with a bare kernel on the left and something like SuSE with multiple gigs of junk on the right, NetBSD is toward the left. I think consensus is among NetBSD people is that this is a good thing. If you want something, put it in pkgsrc. I think NetBSD deals with the "compiler issue" quite well. If a compiler must be part of the base OS, ship it with some fairly stable version. Then there are more recent versions in pkgsrc. And if you really want to do your own thing, download and compile your own. What's the big deal? Andy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 20:36:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F66316A4DA for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:36:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFC2F43D45 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:36:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 68so301379wri for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:36:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=bzzK+atLItuSAnxl3UB6yagFf4UWjU36TF/I3cGtoWG7hozGFydVJ+xzrrgtnqm5c6319+aPcfGX6V87IGGI6nznehajmBMDY0FmMzYtvRD8umulTH7/+PFguCvBnIxXihfSast/FSl3uQ9QQhyLf9SKy6mv+6l9pfI8tQXrGXU= Received: by 10.90.71.12 with SMTP id t12mr323191aga; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.98.12 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8a0028260608311334x76c44e02u1d9dde1b1c1e5012@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:34:21 +0100 From: "Jeff Rollin" To: "Andy Ruhl" In-Reply-To: <78a2305a0608311316pf9bdffdy9557847ed3483d9b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <78a2305a0608310830l923f83pbd03b2c89d417505@mail.gmail.com> <44F703C0.30604@softjar.se> <20060831192614.GA10101@multics.mit.edu> <78a2305a0608311316pf9bdffdy9557847ed3483d9b@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: misc@openbsd.org, "Charles M. Hannum" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org, Johnny Billquist , miros-discuss@mirbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:36:12 -0000 On 31/08/06, Andy Ruhl wrote: > > On 8/31/06, Charles M. Hannum wrote: > > Actually, defining (poorly) the OS to include so much else has been a > > liability for NetBSD in many ways. It has massively slowed the adoption > > of new software versions (e.g. GCC), for one. It also contributed to > > the perception that a better package system and automatic updates were > > not a serious issue. > > It would be interesting to hear more discussion on this. > > If there is a continuum that is what the definition of an OS is, with > a bare kernel on the left and something like SuSE with multiple gigs > of junk on the right, NetBSD is toward the left. I think consensus is > among NetBSD people is that this is a good thing. If you want > something, put it in pkgsrc. To be fair, it's easy to remove 'junk' from SuSE, and not much harder to pile junk into a working Gentoo, Slackware or NetBSD installation. Ironically one complaint that's often voiced at SuSE is that its selection of rpm junk isn't as extensive as other distros'. Jeff. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 22:10:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 584E316A4DA; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:10:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A708943D45; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:10:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38EE0290C46; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:10:02 -0300 (ADT) Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 93821-04; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:10:05 -0300 (ADT) Received: by hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1046) id 0C6B6291AFA; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:50:01 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C89290C46; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:50:01 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:50:00 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" X-X-Sender: freebsd@hub.org To: "Constantine A. Murenin" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , "Marc G. Fournier" , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:10:07 -0000 On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: > On 31/08/06, Marc G. Fournier wrote: >> Just a stupid comment, but ... Linux is one kernel, multiple distributions >> ... BSD is, what, 4 kernels now? If we worked more together instead of as >> seperate camps, it might make things a bit easier, no? > > Isn't there still fewer differences between *BSD operating systems > than between different GNU/Linux distributions and kernel releases? :) > >> Put together a *BSD "core" ... representative from each camp and try and >> steer the *kernel* itself towards a more common BSD ... > > I doubt that'll be productive -- NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD have all > different goals... Even at the kernel level? Look at device drivers and vendors as one example ... companies like adaptec have to write *one* device driver, for, what, 50+ distributions of linux ... for us, they need to write one for FreeBSD, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and *now* one for DragonflyBSD ... if we had *at least* a common API for that sort of stuff, it might be asier to get support at the vendor level, no? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 22:23:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F85616A4DA for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:23:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miod@ribeyre.gentiane.org) Received: from ribeyre.gentiane.org (odyssee.gentiane.org [80.65.224.82]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC2043D49 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:23:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from miod@ribeyre.gentiane.org) Received: from ribeyre.gentiane.org (miod@localhost.gentiane.org [127.0.0.1]) by ribeyre.gentiane.org (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VMNvI3003730; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:23:57 GMT Received: (from miod@localhost) by ribeyre.gentiane.org (8.13.6/8.13.4/Submit) id k7VMNufi019854; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:23:56 GMT Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:23:56 +0000 From: Miod Vallat To: "Marc G. Fournier" Message-ID: <20060831222356.GE25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , "Constantine A. Murenin" , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:23:43 -0000 > Even at the kernel level? Look at device drivers and vendors as one > example ... companies like adaptec have to write *one* device driver, for, > what, 50+ distributions of linux ... for us, they need to write one for > FreeBSD, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and *now* one for DragonflyBSD > ... if we had *at least* a common API for that sort of stuff, it might be > asier to get support at the vendor level, no? Sure, support as a .o file, ready to link against a unique API. Just what Atheros delivers already. That's not something all BSD projects are willing to accept. Miod From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 22:24:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90ADD16A4DD for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:24:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tg@66h.42h.de) Received: from hephaistos.unixforge.de (unixforge.de [85.214.23.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D13E343D6D for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:24:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tg@66h.42h.de) Received: from herc.66h.42h.de (herc.vpn.gecko.ig3.net [192.168.100.7]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "herc.66h.42h.de", Issuer "CA Cert Signing Authority" (verified OK)) by hephaistos.unixforge.de (Sendmail) with ESMTP id 1F96F140F1; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:24:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from odem.66h.42h.de (root@odem.mirbsd.org [IPv6:2001:6f8:94d:4:2c0:9fff:fe1a:6a01]) by herc.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k7VMEM81013046 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:14:23 GMT Received: from odem.66h.42h.de (tg@localhost.66h.42h.de [IPv6:::1]) by odem.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k7VMEKcU015111 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:14:21 GMT Received: (from tg@localhost) by odem.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k7VMEJSX017306; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:14:19 GMT Received: by S/MIME Plugin for MirBSD 9 Kv#9s81-stable-20060819 i386; Thu Aug 31 22:14:17 UTC 2006 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:14:17 +0000 (UTC) From: Thorsten Glaser X-X-Sender: tg@odem.66h.42h.de In-Reply-To: <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> Message-ID: References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> X-Message-Flag: Your mailer is broken. Get an update at http://www.washington.edu/pine/getpine/pcpine.html for free. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:24:17 -0000 Please don't Cc: people when you respond to mailing lists *sigh* Marc G. Fournier dixit: > for us, they need to write 1. Companies don't write drivers for BSD 2. Companies don't even release specs so that people can write drivers for BSD //mirabile -- I believe no one can invent an algorithm. One just happens to hit upon it when God enlightens him. Or only God invents algorithms, we merely copy them. If you don't believe in God, just consider God as Nature if you won't deny existence. -- Coywolf Qi Hunt From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 22:24:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 546C816A4DE; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:24:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from veins@evilkittens.org) Received: from smtp1-g19.free.fr (smtp1-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7483D43D86; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:24:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from veins@evilkittens.org) Received: from [0.0.0.0] (evilkittens.org [82.66.68.213]) by smtp1-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B6390B93; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:24:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 00:24:27 +0200 From: Gilles Chehade User-Agent: Mail/News (X11/20060812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> In-Reply-To: <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , "Constantine A. Murenin" , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:24:37 -0000 Marc G. Fournier wrote: >> >> I doubt that'll be productive -- NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD have all >> different goals... > > Even at the kernel level? Look at device drivers and vendors as one > example ... companies like adaptec have to write *one* device driver, > for, what, 50+ distributions of linux ... for us, they need to write > one for FreeBSD, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and *now* one for > DragonflyBSD ... if we had *at least* a common API for that sort of > stuff, it might be asier to get support at the vendor level, no? > How would a common API provide more support from the vendor ? What does the API have to do with releasing documentation ? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 22:28:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9E916A4DD for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:28:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A495F43D73 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:28:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (wm.hub.org [200.46.204.128]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E37B291B0B; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:28:30 -0300 (ADT) Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.204.128]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 54285-02; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:28:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1046) id 31401291B09; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:28:29 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 264EC290C98; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:28:29 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:28:29 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" X-X-Sender: freebsd@hub.org To: Gilles Chehade In-Reply-To: <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> Message-ID: <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:28:47 -0000 On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Gilles Chehade wrote: > Marc G. Fournier wrote: >>> >>> I doubt that'll be productive -- NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD have all >>> different goals... >> >> Even at the kernel level? Look at device drivers and vendors as one >> example ... companies like adaptec have to write *one* device driver, for, >> what, 50+ distributions of linux ... for us, they need to write one for >> FreeBSD, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and *now* one for DragonflyBSD >> ... if we had *at least* a common API for that sort of stuff, it might be >> asier to get support at the vendor level, no? >> > > How would a common API provide more support from the vendor ? What does the > API have to do with releasing documentation ? I'd rather have Adaptec provide a source code driver for their cards directly, then have Scott Long have to fight with unavailability of documentation itself ... if the driver works, what do we need documentation for? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 22:36:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5246116A4DD for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:36:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pedro@ambientworks.net) Received: from jp.animata.net (jp.animata.net [220.110.80.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9841643D76 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:35:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pedro@ambientworks.net) Received: from jp.animata.net (pedro@localhost.animata.net [127.0.0.1]) by jp.animata.net (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k7VMZiXe020890 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:35:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from pedro@localhost) by jp.animata.net (8.13.6/8.13.3/Submit) id k7VMZiYe023853; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:35:44 -0300 (GMT) X-Authentication-Warning: jp.animata.net: pedro set sender to pedro@ambientworks.net using -f Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:35:43 -0300 From: Pedro Martelletto To: "Marc G. Fournier" Message-ID: <20060831223543.GC15085@jp.animata.net> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.52 on 220.110.80.87 Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , "Constantine A. Murenin" , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:36:06 -0000 On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 06:50:00PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Even at the kernel level? Look at device drivers and vendors as one > example ... companies like adaptec have to write *one* device driver, for, > what, 50+ distributions of linux ... for us, they need to write one for > FreeBSD, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and *now* one for DragonflyBSD > ... if we had *at least* a common API for that sort of stuff, it might be > asier to get support at the vendor level, no? Vendors should release documentation, not write drivers. -p. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 22:57:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0EC916A4E5; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:57:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miod@ribeyre.gentiane.org) Received: from ribeyre.gentiane.org (odyssee.gentiane.org [80.65.224.82]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8070C43D6A; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:57:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from miod@ribeyre.gentiane.org) Received: from ribeyre.gentiane.org (miod@localhost.gentiane.org [127.0.0.1]) by ribeyre.gentiane.org (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VMvLVQ024302; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:57:21 GMT Received: (from miod@localhost) by ribeyre.gentiane.org (8.13.6/8.13.4/Submit) id k7VMvK3Q023735; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:57:20 GMT Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:57:20 +0000 From: Miod Vallat To: "Marc G. Fournier" Message-ID: <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org, Gilles Chehade , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:57:08 -0000 > I'd rather have Adaptec provide a source code driver for their cards > directly, then have Scott Long have to fight with unavailability of > documentation itself ... if the driver works, what do we need > documentation for? To fix the driver. A given piece of source code can only been believed correct until it is proven to be broken (unless you're Knuth, but he did not write device drivers). Even if the driver API is static, the hardware you'll want to use your particular card on isn't. New hardware may (and will) need tweaks to work on your new Uberathlon128 system in two years. If the driver happens to be working by chance on x86 because of, say, some cache behaviour future (read: legacy-free) hardware won't guarantee, what are you going to do? Beg the vendor to fix the driver for this card while it wants you to buy the new, expensive, device flavour which sports 128-bit bells&whistles? Fixing a subtly broken piece of code might not be as simple as adding bus_dmamap_sync() calls here and there. Miod From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 23:01:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 482DA16A4DD; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:01:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C055543D45; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:01:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6CA290C98; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:01:51 -0300 (ADT) Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 97310-10; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:01:54 -0300 (ADT) Received: by hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1046) id DA5DA291AFA; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:01:49 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF044290C98; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:01:49 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:01:49 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" X-X-Sender: freebsd@hub.org To: Pedro Martelletto In-Reply-To: <20060831223543.GC15085@jp.animata.net> Message-ID: <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060831223543.GC15085@jp.animata.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , "Constantine A. Murenin" , "Marc G. Fournier" , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:01:56 -0000 On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Pedro Martelletto wrote: > On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 06:50:00PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: >> Even at the kernel level? Look at device drivers and vendors as one >> example ... companies like adaptec have to write *one* device driver, for, >> what, 50+ distributions of linux ... for us, they need to write one for >> FreeBSD, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and *now* one for DragonflyBSD >> ... if we had *at least* a common API for that sort of stuff, it might be >> asier to get support at the vendor level, no? > > Vendors should release documentation, not write drivers. In a perfect world, they all would ... this is not a perfect world, it is one dominated by Linux or Microsoft ... I use Adaptec drivers on 3 of my servers, because, in 4.x, they were rock solid ... in 6.x, they have a problem ... I'd like to be able to go out and upgrade those servers to a vendor that provides "documentation", but its a cost I can't afford at this time ... so, should I then switch to Linux because they do welcome 'vendor written drivers'? Rhetorical question, since I do not consider switching to Linux an option ... instead, I'm trying to do something to help *BSD advocates promote *BSD to those vendors (see http://www.bsdstats.org) by showing them that we aren't just a 'hobbiest operating system' ... what my point is, though, is if we aren't willing to accept 'vendor written drivers', then it is *we* that are limiting our growth but limiting what hardware we can run stably on ... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 23:03:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8E9D16A4DD; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:03:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726EB43D64; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:03:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC14290C20; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:03:05 -0300 (ADT) Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 96290-08; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:03:09 -0300 (ADT) Received: by hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1046) id E0164291AFA; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:03:04 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB21290C20; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:03:04 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:03:04 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" X-X-Sender: freebsd@hub.org To: Miod Vallat In-Reply-To: <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> Message-ID: <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Gilles Chehade , "Marc G. Fournier" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:03:11 -0000 On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Miod Vallat wrote: >> I'd rather have Adaptec provide a source code driver for their cards >> directly, then have Scott Long have to fight with unavailability of >> documentation itself ... if the driver works, what do we need >> documentation for? > > To fix the driver. If the vendor is supporting the driver, and working with the community, then one would hope that they would also fix the driver as bug reports come in about it ... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 23:06:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 098A816A4DD; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:06:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miod@ribeyre.gentiane.org) Received: from ribeyre.gentiane.org (odyssee.gentiane.org [80.65.224.82]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5176E43D46; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:06:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from miod@ribeyre.gentiane.org) Received: from ribeyre.gentiane.org (miod@localhost.gentiane.org [127.0.0.1]) by ribeyre.gentiane.org (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VN6hkm016808; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:06:43 GMT Received: (from miod@localhost) by ribeyre.gentiane.org (8.13.6/8.13.4/Submit) id k7VN6gaM017996; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:06:42 GMT Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:06:42 +0000 From: Miod Vallat To: "Marc G. Fournier" Message-ID: <20060831230642.GH25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org, Gilles Chehade , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:06:28 -0000 > If the vendor is supporting the driver, and working with the community, > then one would hope that they would also fix the driver as bug reports > come in about it ... That's too many ifs to be realworld-compatible. And actually the only vendors I can think of which are working with the community actually provide documentation, if only because it is simpler for them to spend time on documentation than on code for N different systems. Miod From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 23:10:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A22F16A4DA; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:10:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kili@outback.escape.de) Received: from oker.escape.de (o2.escape.de [194.120.234.254]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA35743D49; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:10:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kili@outback.escape.de) Received: from oker.escape.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (envelope-sender: kili@outback.escape.de) by oker.escape.de (8.13.4/8.13.4/$Revision: 1.55 $) with ESMTP id k7VNAoWc005768 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:10:50 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by oker.escape.de (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) with UUCP id k7VNAkwM005763; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:10:46 +0200 Received: from petunia.outback.escape.de (kili@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by petunia.outback.escape.de (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k7VN8Dl5028761; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:08:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from kili@localhost) by petunia.outback.escape.de (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id k7VN8DQf009097; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:08:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:08:13 +0200 From: Matthias Kilian To: "Marc G. Fournier" Message-ID: <20060831230813.GA28455@petunia.outback.escape.de> Mail-Followup-To: "Marc G. Fournier" , "Constantine A. Murenin" , misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , "Constantine A. Murenin" , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:10:54 -0000 On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 06:50:00PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Even at the kernel level? Look at device drivers and vendors as one > example ... companies like adaptec have to write *one* device driver, for, > what, 50+ distributions of linux ... for us, they need to write one for > FreeBSD, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and *now* one for DragonflyBSD They don't have to write device drivers at all, they just should write good documentation. Some ten or twenty years ago, if you bought arbitrary hardware -- be it a radio, an audio tape drive, a television or even a computer -- you always got thorough documentation for the device, often including schematics, description of used integrated circuits etc. If your tape drive was broken, you could contact your local HiFi engineer, handle him the drive and the schematics, and got it repaired within a few days, even if he (the engineer) never got his hands on a device of the same brand. Even if the manufacturer of the device had vanished. Today, people happily accept and even *encourage* the use and inclusion of black boxes[1] that only the vendors can fix (if they want to, and if they still exist when problems occur). Even worse, people involved in free and open source operating systems encourage this habit. This is incredible. And for Adaptec, please remember the big aac(4) debacle popping up at the OpenBSD lists about a year ago. Ciao, Kili [1] Sometimes, the black boxes aren't black but white and have fruit printed or engraved on them. Ever tried to repair a broken iPod or let someone fix a bug in MacOS X? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 23:24:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B4DC16A4E7 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:24:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tg@66h.42h.de) Received: from hephaistos.unixforge.de (unixforge.de [85.214.23.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C5743D46 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:24:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tg@66h.42h.de) Received: from herc.66h.42h.de (herc.vpn.gecko.ig3.net [192.168.100.7]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "herc.66h.42h.de", Issuer "CA Cert Signing Authority" (verified OK)) by hephaistos.unixforge.de (Sendmail) with ESMTP id 7BE4E140D8; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:24:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from odem.66h.42h.de (root@odem.mirbsd.org [IPv6:2001:6f8:94d:4:2c0:9fff:fe1a:6a01]) by herc.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k7VNKlro006472 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:20:48 GMT Received: from odem.66h.42h.de (tg@localhost.66h.42h.de [IPv6:::1]) by odem.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k7VNKkna021444 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:20:46 GMT Received: (from tg@localhost) by odem.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k7VNKjfH009966; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:20:45 GMT Received: by S/MIME Plugin for MirBSD 9 Kv#9s81-stable-20060819 i386; Thu Aug 31 23:20:44 UTC 2006 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:20:43 +0000 (UTC) From: Thorsten Glaser X-X-Sender: tg@odem.66h.42h.de In-Reply-To: <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> Message-ID: References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> X-Message-Flag: Your mailer is broken. Get an update at http://www.washington.edu/pine/getpine/pcpine.html for free. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:24:11 -0000 Marc G. Fournier dixit: > If the vendor is bought up, bankrupt, out of business, dead (like that person who ported g++ to Plan 9, whose window managers' copyright is now set in stone), etc... you're SOL=B9. //mirabile =B9) wtf knows it --=20 I believe no one can invent an algorithm. One just happens to hit upon it when God enlightens him. Or only God invents algorithms, we merely copy the= m. If you don't believe in God, just consider God as Nature if you won't deny existence.=09=09-- Coywolf Qi Hunt From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 23:26:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0698C16A4DA; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:26:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jason@dixongroup.net) Received: from mail.dixongroup.net (mail.dixongroup.net [144.202.240.239]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3355743D4C; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:26:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jason@dixongroup.net) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mail.dixongroup.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A78A9007D; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:26:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.dixongroup.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.dixongroup.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30981-13; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:26:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.11] (pool-70-22-99-195.balt.east.verizon.net [70.22.99.195]) by mail.dixongroup.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2BB590074; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:26:41 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060831223543.GC15085@jp.animata.net> <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <79F6D7CB-BA0B-4389-A716-570B62F1B185@dixongroup.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jason Dixon Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:26:07 -0400 To: Marc G.Fournier X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at dixongroup.net Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc usage list , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:26:44 -0000 On Aug 31, 2006, at 7:01 PM, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Pedro Martelletto wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 06:50:00PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: >>> Even at the kernel level? Look at device drivers and vendors as one >>> example ... companies like adaptec have to write *one* device >>> driver, for, >>> what, 50+ distributions of linux ... for us, they need to write >>> one for >>> FreeBSD, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and *now* one for >>> DragonflyBSD >>> ... if we had *at least* a common API for that sort of stuff, it >>> might be >>> asier to get support at the vendor level, no? >> >> Vendors should release documentation, not write drivers. > > In a perfect world, they all would ... this is not a perfect > world, it is one dominated by Linux or Microsoft ... I use Adaptec > drivers on 3 of my servers, because, in 4.x, they were rock > solid ... in 6.x, they have a problem ... I'd like to be able to go > out and upgrade those servers to a vendor that provides > "documentation", but its a cost I can't afford at this time ... so, > should I then switch to Linux because they do welcome 'vendor > written drivers'? Rhetorical question, since I do not consider > switching to Linux an option ... instead, I'm trying to do > something to help *BSD advocates promote *BSD to those vendors (see > http://www.bsdstats.org) by showing them that we aren't just a > 'hobbiest operating system' ... what my point is, though, is if we > aren't willing to accept 'vendor written drivers', then it is *we* > that are limiting our growth but limiting what hardware we can run > stably on ... If everyone had your attitude, there would be no *BSD. Settling for "good enough" means never making progress. -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 23:34:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832F316A4DF; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:34:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A89E43D45; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:34:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D72290C98; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:34:39 -0300 (ADT) Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13970-09; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:34:43 -0300 (ADT) Received: by hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1046) id DE193291B0C; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:14:31 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6335290C46; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:14:31 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:14:31 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" X-X-Sender: freebsd@hub.org To: Miod Vallat In-Reply-To: <20060831230642.GH25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> Message-ID: <20060831201338.F82634@hub.org> References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> <20060831230642.GH25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Gilles Chehade , "Marc G. Fournier" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:34:45 -0000 On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Miod Vallat wrote: >> If the vendor is supporting the driver, and working with the community, >> then one would hope that they would also fix the driver as bug reports >> come in about it ... > > That's too many ifs to be realworld-compatible. > > And actually the only vendors I can think of which are working with the > community actually provide documentation, if only because it is simpler > for them to spend time on documentation than on code for N different > systems. ICP Vortex (aka Adaptec) were providing drivers on their web site for FreeBSD 4.x and 5.x that are included in both source trees ... it was a binary driver, as far as I'm aware, but source code ... and Adaptec doesn't provide documentation ... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 23:38:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52FC16A4DF; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:38:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marco@dev.peereboom.us) Received: from dev.peereboom.us (adsl-67-64-89-177.dsl.austtx.swbell.net [67.64.89.177]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F57E43D45; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:38:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marco@dev.peereboom.us) Received: from dev.peereboom.us (marco@localhost.peereboom.us [127.0.0.1]) by dev.peereboom.us (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k7VNI1Ia004513; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:18:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from marco@localhost) by dev.peereboom.us (8.13.8/8.13.4/Submit) id k7VNI0st032687; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:18:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:18:00 -0500 From: Marco Peereboom To: "Marc G. Fournier" Message-ID: <20060831231759.GD12837@peereboom.us> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.12-2006-07-14 Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org, Gilles Chehade , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:38:37 -0000 This is the most retarded thing I heard in weeks. On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 07:28:29PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Gilles Chehade wrote: > > >Marc G. Fournier wrote: > >>> > >>>I doubt that'll be productive -- NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD have all > >>>different goals... > >> > >>Even at the kernel level? Look at device drivers and vendors as one > >>example ... companies like adaptec have to write *one* device driver, > >>for, what, 50+ distributions of linux ... for us, they need to write one > >>for FreeBSD, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and *now* one for > >>DragonflyBSD ... if we had *at least* a common API for that sort of > >>stuff, it might be asier to get support at the vendor level, no? > >> > > > >How would a common API provide more support from the vendor ? What does > >the API have to do with releasing documentation ? > > I'd rather have Adaptec provide a source code driver for their cards > directly, then have Scott Long have to fight with unavailability of > documentation itself ... if the driver works, what do we need > documentation for? > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 23:47:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC8F16A4E0 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:47:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pedro@ambientworks.net) Received: from jp.animata.net (jp.animata.net [220.110.80.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908EA43D4C for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:47:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pedro@ambientworks.net) Received: from jp.animata.net (pedro@localhost.animata.net [127.0.0.1]) by jp.animata.net (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k7VNlh7P018592 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:47:43 +1000 (EST) Received: (from pedro@localhost) by jp.animata.net (8.13.6/8.13.3/Submit) id k7VNlhHv006682; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:47:43 -0300 (GMT) X-Authentication-Warning: jp.animata.net: pedro set sender to pedro@ambientworks.net using -f Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:47:42 -0300 From: Pedro Martelletto To: "Marc G. Fournier" Message-ID: <20060831234742.GD15085@jp.animata.net> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060831223543.GC15085@jp.animata.net> <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.52 on 220.110.80.87 Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , "Constantine A. Murenin" , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:47:50 -0000 On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 08:01:49PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > In a perfect world, they all would ... this is not a perfect world, it is > one dominated by Linux or Microsoft ... I use Adaptec drivers on 3 of my > servers, because, in 4.x, they were rock solid ... in 6.x, they have a > problem ... I'd like to be able to go out and upgrade those servers to a > vendor that provides "documentation", but its a cost I can't afford at > this time ... so, should I then switch to Linux because they do welcome > 'vendor written drivers'? Rhetorical question, since I do not consider > switching to Linux an option ... instead, I'm trying to do something to > help *BSD advocates promote *BSD to those vendors (see > http://www.bsdstats.org) by showing them that we aren't just a 'hobbiest > operating system' ... what my point is, though, is if we aren't willing to > accept 'vendor written drivers', then it is *we* that are limiting our > growth but limiting what hardware we can run stably on ... A 'hobbiest' operating system is one which makes no demands, accepting whatever the vendors want it to. And it's not a matter of promoting *BSD to the vendors. It's a matter of vendors promoting their products by providing clear, concise documentation, demonstrating the quality and correctness of their products. We should not wait for a perfect world to make correct decisions. -p. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 23:51:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B13D016A4E1; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:51:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from veins@evilkittens.org) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9CB743D53; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:51:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from veins@evilkittens.org) Received: from [0.0.0.0] (evilkittens.org [82.66.68.213]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D446752E7; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:51:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44F775EF.3040306@evilkittens.org> Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:51:11 +0200 From: Gilles Chehade User-Agent: Mail/News (X11/20060812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> In-Reply-To: <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:51:14 -0000 Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Gilles Chehade wrote: > >> Marc G. Fournier wrote: >>>> >>>> I doubt that'll be productive -- NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD have all >>>> different goals... >>> >>> Even at the kernel level? Look at device drivers and vendors as one >>> example ... companies like adaptec have to write *one* device >>> driver, for, what, 50+ distributions of linux ... for us, they need >>> to write one for FreeBSD, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and *now* >>> one for DragonflyBSD ... if we had *at least* a common API for that >>> sort of stuff, it might be asier to get support at the vendor level, >>> no? >>> >> >> How would a common API provide more support from the vendor ? What >> does the API have to do with releasing documentation ? > > I'd rather have Adaptec provide a source code driver for their cards > directly, then have Scott Long have to fight with unavailability of > documentation itself ... if the driver works, what do we need > documentation for? mmmh ... you've got a point ... you just opened my eyes ... documentation is pointless when I have a blackbox doing the work. I assumed a BSD system was supposed to provide access to all of the source tree with no restriction so that one could study, fix or improve any part of the system; but you are right and BSD should follow Linux path and focus on quantity, not quality. My eyes are opened, I do trust random vendors to provide fixes and not force me into buying new hardware. I do trust their code to be bug-free and of high-quality. I trust them so much actually, that I don't consider incorporating their code into any of the BSD projects as prostituting their goals: From OpenBSD's goal page: "Integrate good code from any source with acceptable copyright (ISC or Berkeley style preferred, GPL acceptable as a last recourse but not in the kernel, NDA never acceptable) . We want to make available source code that anyone can use for ANY PURPOSE, with no restrictions. *We strive to make our software robust and secure, and encourage companies to use whichever pieces they want to.* There are commercial spin-offs of OpenBSD." From NetBSD's goal page: "avoids encumbering licenses ," From FreeBSD's goal page: "The goal of the FreeBSD Project is to provide software that may be used for any purpose and without strings attached. Many of us have a significant investment in the code (and project) and would certainly not mind a little financial compensation now and then, but we definitely do not insist on it. We believe that our first and foremost “mission” is to provide code to any and all comers, and for whatever purpose, so that the code gets the widest possible use and provides the widest possible benefit. This is, we believe, one of the most fundamental goals of Free Software and one that we enthusiastically support. That code in our source tree which falls under the GNU General Public License (GPL) or GNU Library General Public License (LGPL) comes with slightly more strings attached, though at least on the side of enforced access rather than the usual opposite. Due to the additional complexities that can evolve in the commercial use of GPL software, we do, however, endeavor to replace such software with submissions under the more relaxed FreeBSD license whenever possible." Then, next step would be a rewrite of ``Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System" to remove some of the descriptions concerning structures and code, and incorporation of a chapter on how to load opaque objects to add support for adaptec hardware. Actually ... each edition should have an additionnal chapter for new vendors following adaptec's path and being supportive by providing more opaque objects. After all, that's what BSD is about ... bending to vendors. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 23:51:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159BF16A4DE for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:51:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ted.unangst@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.171]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8ADD43D45 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:51:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ted.unangst@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id m2so792185uge for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:51:42 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=sSUDht9FG4mtm8jPVey3oHgf1EHKl9ibg1hSlutYMSTzQTWFqieq4LQjtUBMIBng7+KtYXcF6V7jZ0Pw6UQea1CCbVfiA43hNGDSUwF3si0YisFh58HpaPSEL7vPJ1hMyun+BsYJshKnD8LkoctitS8N/W6xLWz8o+bxPymABTg= Received: by 10.67.89.5 with SMTP id r5mr859233ugl; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.250.15 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4109e9180608311651u78a58baax67e028b350fac227@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:51:42 -0700 From: "Ted Unangst" To: "Marc G. Fournier" In-Reply-To: <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060831223543.GC15085@jp.animata.net> <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> Cc: misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:51:47 -0000 On 8/31/06, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > Vendors should release documentation, not write drivers. > > In a perfect world, they all would ... this is not a perfect world, it is > one dominated by Linux or Microsoft ... I use Adaptec drivers on 3 of my > servers, because, in 4.x, they were rock solid ... in 6.x, they have a > problem ... I'd like to be able to go out and upgrade those servers to a > vendor that provides "documentation", but its a cost I can't afford at funny. sounds to me like someone could fix the bugs if they had documentation. the sad part is you refuse to learn. you had a driver that used to work and you didn't care that no docs meant you couldn't maintain it. what happened? you got burned. so now you want a new driver that works, but you don't care about getting the docs to assure that it will still work later. i look forward to reading an identical email in 2 years with s/6/8/ and s/4/6/. if your only interest is a driver that works today, you will be reamed on the upgrade every time. *every* time. drivers stop working. documentation doesn't. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 31 23:55:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD76416A4DA for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:55:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF86743D45 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:55:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 68so315043wri for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:55:38 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=WAY7dNp5qd4xeCEvcJoLOrPVbiP69VLMhRScouyrD1hi98lhPZp/GNe+2qdv03xBGNHuRhacdwEHJAld2qJiFFlsgRE/SEM8jYCtYKRNbIlOmmM15HIVYx+Rcj5ZDswcmDtA2T5qnpdRySARxKtAFb0ouyPsR5XoYDZxVH9M7tg= Received: by 10.90.71.12 with SMTP id t12mr344009aga; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.98.12 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8a0028260608311655o7d34977cg2ad4465c4618781a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:55:37 +0100 From: "Jeff Rollin" To: "Marc G. Fournier" In-Reply-To: <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060831223543.GC15085@jp.animata.net> <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , Pedro Martelletto , "Constantine A. Murenin" , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:55:39 -0000 On 01/09/06, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > so, should I then switch to Linux because they do welcome > 'vendor written drivers'? If by 'vendor-written drivers' you mean binary-only drivers, then no, the linux kernel developers emphatically do not accept them. They would much prefer that all vendors release open source drivers, since (amongst other things) if they do, that means they (the LKD's) will be responsible for making sure that when the device driver ABI changes, all open-source drivers are rewritten and recompiled to work with that version of the kernel. Jeff. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 00:28:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C20416A4DA for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:28:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mureninc@gmail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.234]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E1343D46 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:28:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mureninc@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so814103wxd for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:28:42 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=q0Vlx5jgw0gtN8c7GzKdmKLeSPp74y92x9RdpFSWp5tKrM8hDxtiQaYOU1tKoNeSWbuP74YGo2Xo6Ox+b/23aXbBZUUsqlIHNB04GvZ6zmTZgjBt0OgN3yFoyH2CPoAeLKnaXqXRPx/fWISLJnIHtpIZ59cnpvw4u46vkZ387gQ= Received: by 10.70.31.6 with SMTP id e6mr1396110wxe; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.78.17 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:28:42 -0400 From: "Constantine A. Murenin" To: "Marc G. Fournier" In-Reply-To: <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060831223543.GC15085@jp.animata.net> <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 00:28:44 -0000 On 31/08/06, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Pedro Martelletto wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 06:50:00PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > >> Even at the kernel level? Look at device drivers and vendors as one > >> example ... companies like adaptec have to write *one* device driver, for, > >> what, 50+ distributions of linux ... for us, they need to write one for > >> FreeBSD, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and *now* one for DragonflyBSD > >> ... if we had *at least* a common API for that sort of stuff, it might be > >> asier to get support at the vendor level, no? > > > > Vendors should release documentation, not write drivers. > > In a perfect world, they all would ... this is not a perfect world, it is > one dominated by Linux or Microsoft ... I use Adaptec drivers on 3 of my > servers, because, in 4.x, they were rock solid ... in 6.x, they have a > problem ... Did you ever wonder WHY they don't work in the first place? Does your fxp(4)-based Ethernet no longer works with 6.x, too? The driver thing is really simple -- vendors either provide documentation, and their stuff works forever and everywhere; or they provide you some rubbish they often name "support", which basically means that you can only use the purchased hardware for X-number of years, until some progress in your OS is made, and then you are EXPECTED to buy a new device. Complaining that Adaptec doesn't support 6.x is stupid. Didn't they advertise to you that they support FreeBSD 4.x? So what is the problem? Either ask them for documentation, or go buy another controller! From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 01:02:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 248AC16A4DE; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:02:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A491943D45; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:02:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8D03290C20; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:02:52 -0300 (ADT) Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 40162-01; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:02:53 -0300 (ADT) Received: by hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1046) id 6577E290C6D; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:02:47 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F948290C20; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:02:47 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:02:47 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" X-X-Sender: freebsd@hub.org To: Jason Dixon In-Reply-To: <79F6D7CB-BA0B-4389-A716-570B62F1B185@dixongroup.net> Message-ID: <20060831220137.E82634@hub.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060831223543.GC15085@jp.animata.net> <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> <79F6D7CB-BA0B-4389-A716-570B62F1B185@dixongroup.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc usage list , "Marc G.Fournier" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:02:59 -0000 On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Jason Dixon wrote: > If everyone had your attitude, there would be no *BSD. Settling for > "good enough" means never making progress. Who ever said "settling for good enough"? I know I didn't ... if I settled for "good enough", I would have stuck it out with Linux years ago instead of switching to BSD ... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 01:05:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5FD416A4DF; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:05:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from suck@my-balls.com) Received: from aries.siriushosting.com (aries.siriushosting.com [69.90.216.180]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCDC43D55; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:05:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from suck@my-balls.com) Received: from laptop.my.domain (CPE000e0c2c742e-CM001371140156.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [70.25.115.53]) (authenticated bits=0) by aries.siriushosting.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k81159JN022951 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:04:58 -0400 From: Adam To: "Marc G. Fournier" Message-ID: <20060831210458.4b377c7d@laptop.my.domain> In-Reply-To: <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.9.6 (GTK+ 2.8.19; i386-unknown-openbsd3.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:05:14 -0000 "Marc G. Fournier" wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Miod Vallat wrote: > > >> I'd rather have Adaptec provide a source code driver for their cards > >> directly, then have Scott Long have to fight with unavailability of > >> documentation itself ... if the driver works, what do we need > >> documentation for? > > > > To fix the driver. > > If the vendor is supporting the driver, and working with the community, > then one would hope that they would also fix the driver as bug reports > come in about it ... That is beyond naive. Many companies don't even do this for their windows drivers. There's lots of perfectly good hardware out there that doesn't work in recent windows releases because the company making it wants you to buy more hardware, so they refuse to update their drivers. You can keep your vendor lock in thanks, I don't want it. Adam From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 01:08:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ABE916A4E2; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:08:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8490043D45; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:08:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (wm.hub.org [200.46.204.128]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D46B5290C6D; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:08:39 -0300 (ADT) Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.204.128]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 65402-04; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:08:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1046) id 15421291AFA; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:05:13 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10285290C6D; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:05:13 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:05:13 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" X-X-Sender: freebsd@hub.org To: Gilles Chehade In-Reply-To: <44F775EF.3040306@evilkittens.org> Message-ID: <20060831220318.T82634@hub.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <44F775EF.3040306@evilkittens.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, "Marc G. Fournier" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:08:46 -0000 On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Gilles Chehade wrote: > mmmh ... you've got a point ... you just opened my eyes ... documentation is > pointless when I have a blackbox doing the work. Maybe I'm missing something, and if so, I do apologize to those on these lists that I may have offended ... but ... having clean source code to a driver is not equal to a black box ... is it? I don't believe I've once advocatged 'binary drivers' ... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 01:12:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DE9616A4DA; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:12:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from veins@evilkittens.org) Received: from smtp1-g19.free.fr (smtp1-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9495043D49; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:12:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from veins@evilkittens.org) Received: from [0.0.0.0] (evilkittens.org [82.66.68.213]) by smtp1-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F3E329B4; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 03:12:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: From: Gilles Chehade User-Agent: Mail/News (X11/20060812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <44F775EF.3040306@evilkittens.org> <20060831220318.T82634@hub.org> In-Reply-To: <20060831220318.T82634@hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:12:43 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1970 01:55:16 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:12:43 -0000 Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Gilles Chehade wrote: > >> mmmh ... you've got a point ... you just opened my eyes ... >> documentation is pointless when I have a blackbox doing the work. > > Maybe I'm missing something, and if so, I do apologize to those on > these lists that I may have offended ... but ... having clean source > code to a driver is not equal to a black box ... is it? I don't > believe I've once advocatged 'binary drivers' ... a blackbox is not necessarily a binary driver, based on source code filled with magic values you know nothing about, would you be able to fix a bug ? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 01:16:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9511F16A4E1 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:16:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.234]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F369943D46 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:16:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 68so317030wri for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:16:36 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=dSsiVL9f+RAtiM4qBopmg72tbl6iIJFR7/IfI49ow7NPNLR3tiWig+YbgyA6pPs2sjwZKWzlEArNUrXwaOyfCVyPYP56uDhhea85LK+OLNtsNy7QtFpboRaS2E9yciDTx34nrFcIdk2/pW15QhB17PY4NVhj5sJxB4l8KBJ1naM= Received: by 10.90.116.6 with SMTP id o6mr371710agc; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.98.12 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8a0028260608311816w3e52d0afg90a7a16a3da04fa8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:16:35 +0100 From: "Jeff Rollin" To: "Marc G. Fournier" In-Reply-To: <8a0028260608311655o7d34977cg2ad4465c4618781a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060831223543.GC15085@jp.animata.net> <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> <8a0028260608311655o7d34977cg2ad4465c4618781a@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , Pedro Martelletto , "Constantine A. Murenin" , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:16:37 -0000 On 01/09/06, Jeff Rollin wrote: > > > > On 01/09/06, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > > so, should I then switch to Linux because they do welcome > > 'vendor written drivers'? > > > If by 'vendor-written drivers' you mean binary-only drivers, then no, the > linux kernel developers emphatically do not accept them. They would much > prefer that all vendors release open source drivers, since (amongst other > things) if they do, that means they (the LKD's) will be responsible for > making sure that when the device driver ABI changes, all open-source drivers > are rewritten and recompiled to work with that version of the kernel. > Of course, that should be "API" Jeff. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 01:18:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69BB16A4DD; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:18:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E78A43D45; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:18:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (wm.hub.org [200.46.204.128]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA8B290C6D; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:18:08 -0300 (ADT) Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.204.128]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 67096-09; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:18:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1046) id 7721C291AFA; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:16:08 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CCBB290C98; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:16:08 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:16:08 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" X-X-Sender: freebsd@hub.org To: Gilles Chehade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060831221446.I82634@hub.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <44F775EF.3040306@evilkittens.org> <20060831220318.T82634@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, "Marc G. Fournier" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:18:15 -0000 On Thu, 1 Jan 1970, Gilles Chehade wrote: > Marc G. Fournier wrote: >> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Gilles Chehade wrote: >> >>> mmmh ... you've got a point ... you just opened my eyes ... documentation >>> is pointless when I have a blackbox doing the work. >> >> Maybe I'm missing something, and if so, I do apologize to those on these >> lists that I may have offended ... but ... having clean source code to a >> driver is not equal to a black box ... is it? I don't believe I've once >> advocatged 'binary drivers' ... > a blackbox is not necessarily a binary driver, based on source code > filled with magic values you know nothing about, would you be able to > fix a bug ? 'k, put that way, I retract my original statement and apologize to those that I obviously offended ... I wasn't thinking it through, and can understand that adversion that those on these lists had to my comments :( From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 01:24:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3641016A4DA for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:24:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F55643D49 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:24:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E006A290C46; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:24:08 -0300 (ADT) Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 39087-10; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:24:13 -0300 (ADT) Received: by hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1046) id A859A290C6D; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:24:07 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28C9290C46; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:24:07 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:24:07 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" X-X-Sender: freebsd@hub.org To: davide zanon In-Reply-To: <4166472E-4FE1-4837-8CA1-B59D9ACC0599@infinito.it> Message-ID: <20060831222024.H82634@hub.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> <4166472E-4FE1-4837-8CA1-B59D9ACC0599@infinito.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:24:15 -0000 On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, davide zanon wrote: > The reason why merging is impossible or stupid has been said some million > times... Different goals. I'm curious here, but why did the *kernel* diverge for each project? Like, I understand (or think I do) the philosophy of the OpenBSD project, and that is high security ... but, wouldn't the security improvements that go into the OpenBSD kernel not be applicable to NetBSD / FreeBSD? At this point, I couldn't imagine merging, but when OpenBSD first branched off, one would think it would have been fairly easy to keep the *kernel* itself relatively in sync, no? Especially the code audit that I imagine went into securing the OpenBSD kernel itself ... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 01:36:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A07A16A4DA for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:36:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tg@66h.42h.de) Received: from hephaistos.unixforge.de (unixforge.de [85.214.23.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87A543D45 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:36:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tg@66h.42h.de) Received: from herc.66h.42h.de (herc.vpn.gecko.ig3.net [192.168.100.7]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "herc.66h.42h.de", Issuer "CA Cert Signing Authority" (verified OK)) by hephaistos.unixforge.de (Sendmail) with ESMTP id 51D1C14123; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:36:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from odem.66h.42h.de (root@odem.mirbsd.org [IPv6:2001:6f8:94d:4:2c0:9fff:fe1a:6a01]) by herc.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k811XivI021898 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:33:45 GMT Received: from odem.66h.42h.de (tg@localhost.66h.42h.de [IPv6:::1]) by odem.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k811XgvT031353 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:33:43 GMT Received: (from tg@localhost) by odem.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k811XgYv032325; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:33:42 GMT Received: by S/MIME Plugin for MirBSD 9 Kv#9s81-stable-20060819 i386; Fri Sep 1 01:33:40 UTC 2006 Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:33:39 +0000 (UTC) From: Thorsten Glaser X-X-Sender: tg@odem.66h.42h.de In-Reply-To: <20060831220609.B82634@hub.org> Message-ID: References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060831223543.GC15085@jp.animata.net> <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> <8a0028260608311655o7d34977cg2ad4465c4618781a@mail.gmail.com> <20060831220609.B82634@hub.org> X-Message-Flag: Your mailer is broken. Get an update at http://www.washington.edu/pine/getpine/pcpine.html for free. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:36:10 -0000 (When do you stop putting people into Cc instead of just the lists?) Marc G. Fournier dixit: > source code drivers provided by a > vendor, and supported by them Yeah, and what if the vendor goes out of business, is bought or simply bankrupt? You're pretty much SOL then. //mirabile -- I believe no one can invent an algorithm. One just happens to hit upon it when God enlightens him. Or only God invents algorithms, we merely copy them. If you don't believe in God, just consider God as Nature if you won't deny existence. -- Coywolf Qi Hunt From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 01:41:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADC8B16A4DE; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:41:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deraadt@cvs.openbsd.org) Received: from cvs.openbsd.org (cvs.openbsd.org [199.185.137.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EAC143D45; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:41:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from deraadt@cvs.openbsd.org) Received: from cvs.openbsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cvs.openbsd.org (8.13.6/8.12.1) with ESMTP id k811fRlr019124; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:41:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200609010141.k811fRlr019124@cvs.openbsd.org> To: "Marc G. Fournier" In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:05:13 -0300." <20060831220318.T82634@hub.org> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:41:27 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org, Gilles Chehade , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:41:41 -0000 > > mmmh ... you've got a point ... you just opened my eyes ... documentation is > > pointless when I have a blackbox doing the work. > > Maybe I'm missing something, and if so, I do apologize to those on these > lists that I may have offended ... but ... having clean source code to a > driver is not equal to a black box ... is it? I don't believe I've once > advocatged 'binary drivers' ... Approximately six years ago Intel gave the *BSD projects a driver for the Intel gigabit cards, the so-called em(4) driver. They refused to give documentation to the developers then, and they still refuse to give documentation to the developers today (A few people have documentation, but these are rare individuals, typically operating in some sort of support role with a large customer of Intel). That driver was garbage then. Today, six years later and 146 revisions later (in OpenBSD) that driver is still largely terrible. We know why it is terrible. The hardware is not that great. We know one reason why we never got documentation. Bit by bit more information has come out to show that the hardware design is an embarrasment and there are countless bugs and shortcomings. Marc, you cannot program, which is why you will never understand. You should just drop this entire discussion because you are completely wrong. In fact, it is bleating from people like you that, over the years, has let the vendors off the hook when they refuse to supply documentation. OpenBSD people ask vendors for documentation, and FreeBSD people attack us, and the vendor goes "phew, we can get away with not giving them any documentation". Don't just blame (some) Linux developers for signing NDA's. A lot of that also happened in the particular BSD community who you are associated with. And when that guy who signed the NDA (Hi Scott, Hi others) stops giving caring (like the vendors), the driver dies. You all know this is true. You've all seen it happen countless times. And you know there is a better way. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 01:48:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFEAE16A4DF for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:48:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tg@66h.42h.de) Received: from hephaistos.unixforge.de (unixforge.de [85.214.23.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F8B943D45 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:48:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tg@66h.42h.de) Received: from herc.66h.42h.de (herc.vpn.gecko.ig3.net [192.168.100.7]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "herc.66h.42h.de", Issuer "CA Cert Signing Authority" (verified OK)) by hephaistos.unixforge.de (Sendmail) with ESMTP id 19A661412E; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:48:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from odem.66h.42h.de (root@odem.mirbsd.org [IPv6:2001:6f8:94d:4:2c0:9fff:fe1a:6a01]) by herc.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k811h10t023418 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:43:02 GMT Received: from odem.66h.42h.de (tg@localhost.66h.42h.de [IPv6:::1]) by odem.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k811h0ng019732 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:43:00 GMT Received: (from tg@localhost) by odem.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k811gx5G021758; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:42:59 GMT Received: by S/MIME Plugin for MirBSD 9 Kv#9s81-stable-20060819 i386; Fri Sep 1 01:42:59 UTC 2006 Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:42:59 +0000 (UTC) From: Thorsten Glaser X-X-Sender: tg@odem.66h.42h.de In-Reply-To: <20060831222024.H82634@hub.org> Message-ID: References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> <4166472E-4FE1-4837-8CA1-B59D9ACC0599@infinito.it> <20060831222024.H82634@hub.org> X-Message-Flag: Your mailer is broken. Get an update at http://www.washington.edu/pine/getpine/pcpine.html for free. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:48:11 -0000 Marc G. Fournier dixit: > I'm curious here, but why did the *kernel* diverge for each project? Because kernel, userland, ports and attitude come as a package, they cannot be separated, for together they are the operating system. //mirabile -- I believe no one can invent an algorithm. One just happens to hit upon it when God enlightens him. Or only God invents algorithms, we merely copy them. If you don't believe in God, just consider God as Nature if you won't deny existence. -- Coywolf Qi Hunt From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 01:54:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B5F216A4DA; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:54:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from veins@evilkittens.org) Received: from smtp5-g19.free.fr (smtp5-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D94D943D45; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:54:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from veins@evilkittens.org) Received: from [0.0.0.0] (evilkittens.org [82.66.68.213]) by smtp5-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524B517E4B; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 03:54:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <16BB.4010209@evilkittens.org> From: Gilles Chehade User-Agent: Mail/News (X11/20060812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <44F775EF.3040306@evilkittens.org> <20060831220318.T82634@hub.org> <20060831221446.I82634@hub.org> In-Reply-To: <20060831221446.I82634@hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:54:24 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1970 02:36:59 +0100 X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:54:24 -0000 Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Thu, 1 Jan 1970, Gilles Chehade wrote: > >> Marc G. Fournier wrote: >>> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Gilles Chehade wrote: >>> >>>> mmmh ... you've got a point ... you just opened my eyes ... >>>> documentation is pointless when I have a blackbox doing the work. >>> >>> Maybe I'm missing something, and if so, I do apologize to those on >>> these lists that I may have offended ... but ... having clean source >>> code to a driver is not equal to a black box ... is it? I don't >>> believe I've once advocatged 'binary drivers' ... > >> a blackbox is not necessarily a binary driver, based on source code >> filled with magic values you know nothing about, would you be able to >> fix a bug ? > > 'k, put that way, I retract my original statement and apologize to > those that I obviously offended ... I wasn't thinking it through, and > can understand that adversion that those on these lists had to my > comments :( > I, for one, was not offended by your statements, I don't get offended by people behind screens. The fact is, it saddens me. I'd continue this discussion, but it is a waste of time, it has been discussed already a lot and to sum things up, the fact that some people are willing to sacrifice the goals of their project and willing to accept anything to grow a larger user base and make vendors happy is scary. I am an OpenBSD, NetBSD and FreeBSD user, my opinion is not biased as I like them all, but to be honest the fact that some of them accept blobs or obfuscate source drivers is at the opposite of what BSD used to mean (at least for me). no matter the reason, bending to a vendor sets up an example for others and harms everyone in the end. For each adaptec hardware supported by blackboxes, how many hardware support have we lost because vendors feel they can distribute NDA's ? Anyway, i'm over with this discussion, i got more productive things to do ;) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 02:24:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B96BA16A4E0 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:24:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from daniel@presscom.net) Received: from home.ouellet.biz (home.ouellet.biz [66.63.10.92]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D39DD43D45 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:24:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from daniel@presscom.net) Received: (qmail 2433 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2006 02:24:43 -0000 Received: from wireless.ouellet.realconnect.com (HELO ?192.168.100.100?) (66.63.10.94) by home.ouellet.biz with SMTP; 1 Sep 2006 02:24:43 -0000 Message-ID: <44F799E2.4030402@presscom.net> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:24:34 -0400 From: Daniel Ouellet User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> <4166472E-4FE1-4837-8CA1-B59D9ACC0599@infinito.it> <20060831222024.H82634@hub.org> In-Reply-To: <20060831222024.H82634@hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:24:44 -0000 Marc G. Fournier wrote: > I'm curious here, but why did the *kernel* diverge for each project? > Like, I understand (or think I do) the philosophy of the OpenBSD > project, and that is high security ... but, wouldn't the security > improvements that go into the OpenBSD kernel not be applicable to NetBSD > / FreeBSD? At this point, I couldn't imagine merging, but when OpenBSD > first branched off, one would think it would have been fairly easy to > keep the *kernel* itself relatively in sync, no? Especially the code > audit that I imagine went into securing the OpenBSD kernel itself ... Because they all have different goal and way to go at it. Just think treads as an example. NONE of them are doing it the same anymore, or will anyway. And some wanted more features oppose to make it stable and secure before any features were thought of. Some prefer read clean code and do the clean up before moving forward, others just takes what's offer by vendor and patch around it to make it work as blob. I can think of a very long lists and I am not even a developer, so just imagine how different it is now. Many see it differently. Some buy hardware, the latest, etc and then bitch that it is not working for them and expect to have it working. Others pick an OS because of it's goal and the fact that all along it's history, it stick to it like HELL and never compromise on it or it;s GOAL! Then the same users that have security and stability at hart, will look at what's supported and then buy accordingly and that also include boycotting the blob vendor until the provide documentations for the hardware they try to sale. Just more example and a simple quote as recent as 4 days ago "The interface to the hardware (the PCI layer) is different, along with the SCSI midlayers, and the way DMA memory is dealt with." from http://www.undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20060827154223 and that's just one of many. Or even the secure use of "strlcpy, strlcat" as an example to be more secure all around. Even the maintainer of libc still refuse to include them if I am not mistaken. Not all project have the same goal and go at it the same way. The list is just way to long to put here, way to long and I don't even know much compare to many of the OpenBSD devs! So, just imagine the differences. Also, Theo said many times that OpenBSD evolve by evolutions, not revolutions oppose to some project that will sale their mothers to get a few more users at the price of stability and even more gross, security. I say, no thanks. I am sure there would/could be some benefit for all the *BSD to work together, but for a same kernel, I don't think so. They can't even agree to the danger of BLOB and you expect them to do one *kernel*. Plus BSD IS NOT a KERNEL, but a FULL fledge system and pretty soon a FULL router as well that will even give Cisco and Juniper a run for their money, or SmartNet! (;> End of a to long post anyway. Best, Daniel PS: The only one that survive, in any situations, are always the one sticking to their goal and they know what they are suppose to do and where they should go! The comities are left to the endless waisting time of the governments and manager that can only talks and do no good! But always think the know better and will tell you how to do it, but hey, if they knew, they would have done it already! Like we eared many times, shutup and hack... PSS: So, one *BSD can claim the most different platform it runs on, one was able in history to claim to be the fastest of the *BSD, one was and still is the most secure of not only the *BSD, but of the OS at large and it sure didn't come over night either, but by sticking to the goal. And finally one can claim to be run by the most amount of users, that's the *Linux what ever flavor of the month you want. No wonder that need the most amount of users(tester) and peer helpers to keep it running and somewhat secure for a few hours now, well may be more at this time, but still a very long away off. Even IBM saw the light and they said they would run it, but they realize they can't, however, they sure see the $$$ coming in at supporting it and may be keeping it in the dark as to not loose their new source of income. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 02:38:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B69416A4DA; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:38:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwc@stilyagin.com) Received: from puffy.asicommunications.com (puffy.asicommunications.com [216.9.200.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C4F443D60; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:38:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dwc@stilyagin.com) Received: from zloy.stilyagin.com (71-35-25-152.phnx.qwest.net [71.35.25.152]) by puffy.asicommunications.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k812cfsl010187 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:38:42 -0700 (MST) Received: (from dwc@localhost) by zloy.stilyagin.com (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k812cZHH027843; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:38:35 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:38:35 -0700 From: Darrin Chandler To: "Marc G. Fournier" Message-ID: <20060901023835.GO20373@zloy.stilyagin.com> References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:38:52 -0000 On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 08:03:04PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Miod Vallat wrote: > > >>I'd rather have Adaptec provide a source code driver for their cards > >>directly, then have Scott Long have to fight with unavailability of > >>documentation itself ... if the driver works, what do we need > >>documentation for? > > > >To fix the driver. > > If the vendor is supporting the driver, and working with the community, > then one would hope that they would also fix the driver as bug reports > come in about it ... You're living in a dreamland. You should get over your prejudice against Linux, because it's already where you want to be. -- Darrin Chandler | Phoenix BSD Users Group dwchandler@stilyagin.com | http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ | From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 02:47:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 194E616A4DD; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:47:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwc@stilyagin.com) Received: from puffy.asicommunications.com (puffy.asicommunications.com [216.9.200.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD48343D4C; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:47:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dwc@stilyagin.com) Received: from zloy.stilyagin.com (71-35-25-152.phnx.qwest.net [71.35.25.152]) by puffy.asicommunications.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k812gNYm017138 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:42:24 -0700 (MST) Received: (from dwc@localhost) by zloy.stilyagin.com (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k812gHTc022948; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:42:17 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:42:17 -0700 From: Darrin Chandler To: Miod Vallat Message-ID: <20060901024217.GP20373@zloy.stilyagin.com> References: <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Gilles Chehade , "Marc G. Fournier" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@NetBSD.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:47:39 -0000 On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 10:57:20PM +0000, Miod Vallat wrote: > > I'd rather have Adaptec provide a source code driver for their cards > > directly, then have Scott Long have to fight with unavailability of > > documentation itself ... if the driver works, what do we need > > documentation for? > > To fix the driver. > > A given piece of source code can only been believed correct until it is > proven to be broken (unless you're Knuth, but he did not write device > drivers). Even Knuth: "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it." -DEK -- Darrin Chandler | Phoenix BSD Users Group dwchandler@stilyagin.com | http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ | From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 03:40:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B6A416A4DE for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 03:40:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from daniel@presscom.net) Received: from home.ouellet.biz (home.ouellet.biz [66.63.10.92]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6BD6343D45 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 03:40:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from daniel@presscom.net) Received: (qmail 21538 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2006 03:40:23 -0000 Received: from wireless.ouellet.realconnect.com (HELO ?192.168.100.100?) (66.63.10.94) by home.ouellet.biz with SMTP; 1 Sep 2006 03:40:23 -0000 Message-ID: <44F7AB9E.8000806@presscom.net> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:40:14 -0400 From: Daniel Ouellet User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> <20060901023835.GO20373@zloy.stilyagin.com> In-Reply-To: <20060901023835.GO20373@zloy.stilyagin.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 03:40:25 -0000 On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 08:03:04PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Miod Vallat wrote: >>> I'd rather have Adaptec provide a source code driver for their cards >>> directly, then have Scott Long have to fight with unavailability of >>> documentation itself ... if the driver works, what do we need >>> documentation for? >> To fix the driver. > If the vendor is supporting the driver, and working with the community, > then one would hope that they would also fix the driver as bug reports > come in about it ... Dream and never going to happen. History proved it too many times over. Case 1: IBM sales support contract for OpenSSH, makes tones of $$$ from it. Get support calls for bugs and send it to OpenSSH instead and tell it's clients that they can't do anything for them. But at the same time, they claim to support the open source... They cash in and never gives back. But they have the FULL source code and that's not even a driver to a black box that they don't have documentations for. If they said they can't do it for that fully open source code, how do you expect others to for example support IBM hardware BLOB drivers, even with the source code, without docs? The said they can't, but they sure have the men power don't they? So... NOTHING replace docs, nothing at all. Case 2: Linux got huge market share, at the time RedHat got public and a few others got rich at it. IBM saw this as an opportunity and claim they support the open source, offer accounts on their hardwares to developer more of Linux by the community so they they can sale more hardware at no cost to them. They also could claim to support it and be the biggest supporter of it. Yeap, they go what, last year announce 1 billions of US $ of income from support contract on Linux. Well that's a good amount of money, so why don't they contribute back then. But it pays to keep it not to good doesn't it? But hey, they couldn't contribute to OpenSSH in $$$ for all that they got in no? Proof 1 case 3: The same IBM used to have OS2 and it was a hell of a lot more stable that Windows ever been. Even Microsoft software ran better on it then on Windows. But it didn't pay as IBM didn't get support calls. So, they let it die, without telling anyone obviously. It was secure and stable for it's time anyway. Ever tried to by direct from IBM a server with OS2 pre install. I did and couldn't, but sure could get Windows on it with support contract as well. Doesn't pay to be too secure or stable, customers don't upgrade, or call for support and give you $$$. So, it's all the same thing in the end and the history proved it many times over. Just look back and you will see it too. Adaptec, IBM, and the like. They don't really want you to be so happy, if you were, they wouldn't sale you more stuff. But all this is also cause by the same community that accept this in the first place. They accept BLOB, so they get them and then when they upgrade their OS and it doesn't work, they complain and change their hardware with new BLOB and the circle start all over. Until all the *BSD act as one voice and demand documentations, this will not change. I wish I could asked the Linux to do the same, but that's even a bigger dream I think, but I hope I am wrong. So, no, they will not work with the community, it's been proven, they will not support them either, proven too as well, even in case of service contract with all n their hands to do so. And as for giving up the documentations because it is working, well I guess no one is interested to be sure it is safe, secure, stable, efficient, but trust others to do so. In short let the direction be taken by others and in the end complain that some project are going down. The lack of direction make it happen and the acceptance of other BLOB codes without questions accelerate it too. Instead of having one *KERNEL*, may be it could start by one voice and demand documentations, freely and simply that. That would already be a HUGE step forward and that would help ALL the *BSD including the *Linux as well. But sadly, looks like only one *BSD project see it clearly and stick to it. It's a sad status of affairs I tell you and I sure hope that NetBSD comes back with it's own good direction as well. If sadly not, then I am sure OpenBSD could use some more selected devs, but that's sure hell is not my place to say. There is a head for that and no one question it either. That's direction Wish you the best never the less. Regards, Daniel From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 05:06:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD4D816AF57; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 05:05:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ericfurman@fastmail.net) Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1561C43D55; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 05:05:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ericfurman@fastmail.net) Received: from frontend3.internal (frontend3.internal [10.202.2.152]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD87DA03D8; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web1.internal ([10.202.2.210]) by frontend3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:05:46 -0400 Received: by web1.internal (Postfix, from userid 99) id 1905AB33A; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1157087146.32107.269905298@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: NhxZxRVYHHePa4nrIaHIYqJu7pauHsVq0iV0rED7eb2G 1157087146 From: "Eric Furman" To: "Marc G. Fournier" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> In-Reply-To: <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:05:46 -0400 Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, OpenBSD Misc , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 05:06:03 -0000 On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:03:04 -0300 (ADT), "Marc G. Fournier" said: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Miod Vallat wrote: > > >> I'd rather have Adaptec provide a source code driver for their cards > >> directly, then have Scott Long have to fight with unavailability of > >> documentation itself ... if the driver works, what do we need > >> documentation for? > > > > To fix the driver. > > If the vendor is supporting the driver, and working with the community, > then one would hope that they would also fix the driver as bug reports > come in about it ... BWAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OHHOHOHOHOHOHH, MY GOD WAS THAT FUNNY!!!! MY SIDES ARE SPLITTING!!!! Wait... You weren't serious, were you? You couldn't be serious. Nobody is *THAT* f*****g ignorant of what has transpired between vendors and the open source community over the last decade... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 05:06:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45DFF16B1B3 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 05:06:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgeorge.ml@gmail.com) Received: from qb-out-0506.google.com (qb-out-0506.google.com [72.14.204.231]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7078243D49 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 05:06:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sgeorge.ml@gmail.com) Received: by qb-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id a10so126425qbd for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:06:32 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MuhKVnDA+IIMsIO/NhEP9hWHxnsYC6B/vnoSfbsJacIMRaoNumevnihmldfiGXw6dogWUcACGG4G2x+7/1TYgjKfc/uDeaSg2Fsib52KzKWGE0r/IfokkdCdeF/vJtIhqD+0xkesrwyyfateH7t4kw55ie+GOkzfMUwQ0q2TevU= Received: by 10.35.87.8 with SMTP id p8mr2186607pyl; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.51.18 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:34:52 +0530 From: "Siju George" To: "Marc G. Fournier" In-Reply-To: <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org, Gilles Chehade , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 05:06:48 -0000 On 9/1/06, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Gilles Chehade wrote: > > > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > >>> > >>> I doubt that'll be productive -- NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD have all > >>> different goals... > >> > >> Even at the kernel level? Look at device drivers and vendors as one > >> example ... companies like adaptec have to write *one* device driver, for, > >> what, 50+ distributions of linux ... for us, they need to write one for > >> FreeBSD, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and *now* one for DragonflyBSD > >> ... if we had *at least* a common API for that sort of stuff, it might be > >> asier to get support at the vendor level, no? > >> > > > > How would a common API provide more support from the vendor ? What does the > > API have to do with releasing documentation ? > > I'd rather have Adaptec provide a source code driver for their cards > directly, then have Scott Long have to fight with unavailability of > documentation itself ... if the driver works, what do we need > documentation for? > Marc, Some time back we ( OpenBSD community and some others in other BSD/Linux communities ) had mailed Adaptec to release the Documentation for their RAID Chipsets. One of the mail's from the adaptec personnel said. "We have a disclaimer because there may be corner cases" Which adaptec would not have encountered before releasing the drivers. A *working* driver doesnot mean much when you bring to the picture things like these. Forget Corner cases if you want to use your card on newer hardwre that comes out everyday you will find that the driver needs to be worked on. And it is very important if you are interested in the Stability and Security of your System. Forget about the vendor giving you a fix for every problem you face. The would most probably tell you to upgrade your hardware. But if you had the documentation available for all if not you some one who knows to Code could fix it for you. The vendor loses nothing by freeing the docmentation of their hardware. On the contrary by doing so they ensure their is supported on wider OS platforms and work together well with other hardware. This helps in selling more of their hardware and also since it is used by more people the corner cases will be less because there is a chance that people would encounter them more quiclky and since the documentation is free it will be fixed more quickly. And there is no real reason ( in my opinion ) in exerting some pressure on vendors to release the documentation. Actually it is for their benefit :-) Hope this Helps Kind Regards Siju From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 05:07:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457AF16B21D for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 05:07:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgeorge.ml@gmail.com) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651CB43D49 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 05:07:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sgeorge.ml@gmail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id o67so1065399pye for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:07:30 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rXF1tWGMlLqeUhm018hd8rjmVtQzAclRy+PmZ3AC6MEoFHrKtgS3+K9q3gFOuuZNf7YFiAP6QfhDk0IJEOl7DVR3HQ6xRZQhm2U5mXWav5KKxnW6tUoi3SMPkTHkx0E+hZ0ep4oHA2yEcoP4hnnZ8YqZ0lD1FN4zZnmXkWLXuzQ= Received: by 10.35.45.1 with SMTP id x1mr2176312pyj; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.51.18 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:37:30 +0530 From: "Siju George" To: "Marc G. Fournier" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org, Gilles Chehade , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 05:07:51 -0000 On 9/1/06, Siju George wrote: > > And there is no real reason ( in my opinion ) in exerting some Sorry Typo :-( ^^^in not exerting^^^ > pressure on vendors to release the documentation. Actually it is for > their benefit :-) > > Hope this Helps > > Kind Regards > > Siju > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 06:10:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 755AC16A4E6 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:10:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tony@servacorp.com) Received: from mail14c.g14.rapidsite.net (mail14c.g14.rapidsite.net [128.121.64.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B527743D45 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:10:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tony@servacorp.com) Received: from mx06.mlpsca01.us.mxservers.net (128.121.64.131) by mail14c.g14.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.95vs) with SMTP id 3-0638081043; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:10:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.servacorp.com [204.202.14.242] (HELO LAPTONY) by mx06.mlpsca01.us.mxservers.net (mxl_mta-1.3.8-10p4) with SMTP id 3a078f44.27900.361.mx06.mlpsca01.us.mxservers.net; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 13:40:51 -0400 (EDT) From: To: "Theo de Raadt" , "Marc G. Fournier" Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:10:13 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200609010141.k811fRlr019124@cvs.openbsd.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Spam: [F=0.3285776035; heur=0.500(-10800); stat=0.246; spamtraq-heur=0.599(2006083110)] X-MAIL-FROM: X-SOURCE-IP: [204.202.14.242] X-Loop-Detect: 1 X-DistLoop-Detect: 1 Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org, Gilles Chehade , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Tony@ServaCorp.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 06:10:52 -0000 Theo de Raadt wrote: [snip] > > We know one reason why we never got documentation. Bit by bit more > information has come out to show that the hardware design is an > embarrasment and there are countless bugs and shortcomings. > Surprising? Not really. Affects ONLY OpenBSD? Not a chance. That's why I follow misc@openbsd. I don't think I'm alone. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 06:51:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB51916A4DA for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:51:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from cydem.org (S0106000103ce4c9c.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.27.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4607943D45 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 06:51:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from soralx.cydem.org (unknown [192.168.0.249]) by cydem.org (Postfix/FreeBSD) with ESMTP id 3A43F908C6; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:51:17 -0700 (PDT) From: soralx@cydem.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:51:17 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060831230813.GA28455@petunia.outback.escape.de> In-Reply-To: <20060831230813.GA28455@petunia.outback.escape.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200608312351.17397.soralx@cydem.org> Cc: Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 06:51:20 -0000 Matthias Kilian: > [1] Sometimes, the black boxes aren't black but white and have fruit > printed or engraved on them. Bwa-ha-ha-ha :) However, one can get proper manuals being an authorized service center, no? > Ever tried to repair a broken iPod or > let someone fix a bug in MacOS X? It's a standard practice nowadays -- noone includes any good docs with their products anymore (schematics? what's that!?), but at least Apple puts part numbers on most of their pieces... And that's the best they can do, IMHO. Why swear at Apple if everyone is like them, and even worse? No, I don't use anything from Apple, but I did fix a few of their products... some were a nightmare to take apart, some were OK. One thing for sure though: they do help to fight the tendency of lots of vendors to sell crap products (in terms of quality -- materials, components, engineering and even exterior and interior design) and think that it's OK. Take iPod, for instance. Put it beside any other music player. See the difference? Although I don't own iPods (for their 'pop' image and stupid iTunes interface, useless under BSD), if not for Apple, we'd still be stuck with players made of cheap plastic, in a shape of a large curved brick, (worst of all) with flashy face and controls (made for Japanese schoolgirls?) and, as always, lots of features, useful and not very :) We can criticize vendors for not being OSS-friednly, but shouldn't go too far. Remember that there's pressure to sell products for as little money as possible (sometimes being 'competitive' means selling your product for no profit, or worse). For many cheap goodies, writing documentation is just a waste of time (what's the ratio of Unix users vs Windoze ones in North America?), so if a vendor is kind enough to supply a _functional_ FreeBSD driver for, say, $10 NIC -- it's great, it means that someone in the company cares about BSD. Driver doesn't work in -CURRENT? Throw away the card and buy something that works. This NIC's chip is used in your notebook? You're lucky, you have a driver. Want to change to -CURRENT? Well, you're screwed, but who cares -- you should be using M$-Windows anyway. Server hardware is a different story. There, vendors _must_ provide documentation, it's absolutely essential. But don't mix these two different markets. Either talk about general hardware, or quality hardware meant to be in service for decades (this kind of hw is usually supplied complete, with specialized OS). [SorAlx] ridin' VN1500-B2 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 07:01:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACD616A4DA for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:01:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from cydem.org (S0106000103ce4c9c.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.27.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E451743D46 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:01:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from soralx.cydem.org (unknown [192.168.0.249]) by cydem.org (Postfix/FreeBSD) with ESMTP id 2ACF890C9F for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:01:56 -0700 (PDT) From: soralx@cydem.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:01:54 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831142321.27596.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6a506d980608311020j156ac46cyb92f1c7bec80d439@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6a506d980608311020j156ac46cyb92f1c7bec80d439@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200609010001.55068.soralx@cydem.org> Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 07:01:57 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan: > On FreeBSD with UFS, more than once a crash totally > hosed my system: I had to reinstall. People blamed it > on ATA write-caching: the standard FreeBSD advice is > "use SCSI". With linux/ext3 I've NEVER had a problem Don't know whether it's really ATA write-caching, but my home workstation with SCSI drive never had a single case of corrupted FS (and I crash it a lot), when other ATA-based computers sometimes get 'unexpected soft updates inconsistency', and it's really killing the whole FS. Slowly (but sometimes instantly) and surely. [SorAlx] ridin' VN1500-B2 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 07:11:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E2516A4DE for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from cydem.org (S0106000103ce4c9c.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.27.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F34943D5D for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:11:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from soralx.cydem.org (unknown [192.168.0.249]) by cydem.org (Postfix/FreeBSD) with ESMTP id 3610A90C9F; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:11:48 -0700 (PDT) From: soralx@cydem.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, rsidd@online.fr Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:11:47 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831142321.27596.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6a506d980608311020j156ac46cyb92f1c7bec80d439@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6a506d980608311020j156ac46cyb92f1c7bec80d439@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200609010011.47347.soralx@cydem.org> Cc: Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 07:11:49 -0000 > With today's Ubuntu, for example, I can plug in all the > equipment I have -- memory sticks, digital cameras, > whatever -- and it just works. Same with any system that supports _standard_ storage devices. They just work. > If I pop in a DVD the DVD player opens. Now, who needs that? If you didn't instruct it to play a movie, why it does that? You know, if PCs are getting too smart, they may as well start drinking you beer, walking you dog and riding you bike for you, too ;) [SorAlx] ridin' VN1500-B2 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 08:48:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AB4416A4DA for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:48:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.226]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DA1D43D49 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:48:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so938957wxd for ; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:48:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ncDkcfiBpcG1sl8HtSzA1bSDMMbd+zkmkG6FiK5BSOUCXzPOVwxURgdUgCVj4uDwJqPyGec9yVLKLtP4XGp9LiAwSGMsilV1mdbZz7ErDzKDZyPxttLaKrp2HznkBflNgMUJ5INkixkN3pPHOisL4/ve5tFHUmF0DyiQ282ADmM= Received: by 10.90.49.20 with SMTP id w20mr373203agw; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.98.12 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8a0028260609010147w39261a2fk8c3446f57a5f9fa1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:47:10 +0100 From: "Jeff Rollin" To: "soralx@cydem.org" In-Reply-To: <200609010011.47347.soralx@cydem.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831142321.27596.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6a506d980608311020j156ac46cyb92f1c7bec80d439@mail.gmail.com> <200609010011.47347.soralx@cydem.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: rsidd@online.fr, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 08:48:48 -0000 On 01/09/06, soralx@cydem.org wrote: > > > > With today's Ubuntu, for example, I can plug in all the > > equipment I have -- memory sticks, digital cameras, > > whatever -- and it just works. > > Same with any system that supports _standard_ storage devices. > They just work. > > > If I pop in a DVD the DVD player opens. > > Now, who needs that? Apart from people on life support, who *needs* computers? If you didn't instruct it to play a movie, > why it does that? You did: by putting the disc in. You know, if PCs are getting too smart, they > may as well start drinking you beer, walking you dog and riding > you bike for you, too ;) And if we allow gays to marry, soon people will want to marry their box turtles... my =A30.02 Jeff. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 08:59:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA6216A4DA for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:59:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from cydem.org (S0106000103ce4c9c.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.27.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA49F43D66 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 08:59:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from soralx.cydem.org (unknown [192.168.0.249]) by cydem.org (Postfix/FreeBSD) with ESMTP id 0B8C9908C6 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:59:41 -0700 (PDT) From: soralx@cydem.org Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:59:40 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <200609010011.47347.soralx@cydem.org> <8a0028260609010147w39261a2fk8c3446f57a5f9fa1@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8a0028260609010147w39261a2fk8c3446f57a5f9fa1@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline To: Undisclosed.Recipients: ; Message-Id: <200609010159.40972.soralx@cydem.org> Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 08:59:43 -0000 > If you didn't instruct it to play a movie, why it does that? > You did: by putting the disc in. Bad logic. Putting the disc in != requesting (or wanting) to play a movie. [SorAlx] ridin' VN1500-B2 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 09:47:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A36716A4E8 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:47:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsidd120@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AE3443D92 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:47:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd120@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id n15so631234nfc for ; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:47:39 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LwsBOs3/r1LBbd1Vj5X1Ac2kjuzbXWC61GzYdVeuZceUNOV6kkR/T2Tnrx+eGMq1PUpGWQgafs4KiiUrrrvBMcVkDTde2lEyZvVnDwYEXGRhGhmhO5jfh5g+axDNI1Yw8repUQ4OIQiYOU3xA8dBACb203RpmRA9F3nGpcJ1HMM= Received: by 10.49.90.4 with SMTP id s4mr2750915nfl; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.81.12 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <6a506d980609010247i4bfcafecoaead4b7e45311692@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:17:39 +0530 From: "Rahul Siddharthan" To: "soralx@cydem.org" In-Reply-To: <200609010159.40972.soralx@cydem.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <200609010011.47347.soralx@cydem.org> <8a0028260609010147w39261a2fk8c3446f57a5f9fa1@mail.gmail.com> <200609010159.40972.soralx@cydem.org> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: rsidd@imsc.res.in List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 09:47:58 -0000 On 9/1/06, soralx@cydem.org wrote: > > > If you didn't instruct it to play a movie, why it does that? > > You did: by putting the disc in. > > Bad logic. Putting the disc in != requesting (or wanting) to play a movie. Indeed, no. And putting a CD-ROM in doesn't mean I want to mount it or read it. And putting in a memory stick doesn't mean I want to read it either. But, well over 99% of the time, these things are what I want to do. If I want to do something else with the DVD, well, I close the movie player and do something else. But 99% of the time, I'm grateful for the time it saves me. Also, if I'm the type who only ever inserts DVDs to rip them or do other nefarious things, I can always set up the system to *not* open the movie player automatically. But then most BSD users see things differently. How does the system know that I *want* /dev/ad1s2c mounted as /usr/local? I may sometimes want it mounted as /opt instead. For maximum flexibility, boot in single user mode with a ramdisk, and then mount all disks and start all services by hand. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 09:56:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 699DF16A63F for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:56:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B5843DB1 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:56:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so955978wxd for ; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:56:42 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=k1o5cGH8g/FQcKxeXQqTXI6pJYsfDSpNkCKESXCeI1G3p6eRSeVK0wkDNx+RTaGVn4RynpWslQVQJ5gT77BjERgyHRErhbcsqpitolOrnBGo0o3vljLnYZLSnweWsxhepD4GjYRAc8AWMFKML0yGBOlbJiV9vMSGrPiRs8flJFY= Received: by 10.90.49.20 with SMTP id w20mr382912agw; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.98.12 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8a0028260609010230v30d592ces97897c47d31669bb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:30:21 +0100 From: "Jeff Rollin" To: "soralx@cydem.org" In-Reply-To: <200609010159.40972.soralx@cydem.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <200609010011.47347.soralx@cydem.org> <8a0028260609010147w39261a2fk8c3446f57a5f9fa1@mail.gmail.com> <200609010159.40972.soralx@cydem.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 09:56:49 -0000 On 01/09/06, soralx@cydem.org wrote: > > > > If you didn't instruct it to play a movie, why it does that? > > You did: by putting the disc in. > > Bad logic. Putting the disc in != requesting (or wanting) to play a movie. How is that bad logic? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 10:00:01 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E3F16A4E5 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:00:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gilboooo@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C558343D5D for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:59:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gilboooo@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id m2so923020uge for ; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:59:58 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=F/WnqaCJmyI271H6pvee4+onFUjbzVb6IV6MYxSqrlKdleaL5RxpBHDMx9MiMUfEOEBNhuxxFrghGFDSbOKSr2d94rcBpnpT06OvzqEbD4/1VtRnf+o7/pOXoNT/C/bnVJ+gK6kkl8j+oed0I3jTiEbYyeTXULUC3EVjHjbCWXE= Received: by 10.66.221.19 with SMTP id t19mr1084941ugg; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.90.6 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 02:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:59:57 +0200 From: "Gilbert Fernandes" To: "Miod Vallat" In-Reply-To: <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 10:00:02 -0000 I have a dream. A dream of unification. Having one BSD. Merging the three projects and, why not, keeping incompatible stuff as options that would be either one or another. But when you tell yourself that it cannot be done, you don't even try it. It would require people to not only do it for the sake of their projects, but for the whole BSD people. Even those who really piss you off in other projects. Because someday, those projects will live on without us. We'll pass on like everyone. Am I alone thinking this ? -- unzip ; strip ; touch ; grep ; find ; finger ; mount ; fsck ; more ; yes ; fsck ; umount ; sleep From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 10:22:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B0216A4DA for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:22:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8CAC43D4C for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:22:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so962396wxd for ; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 03:22:28 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=KEUYN+KtYT4uwCT5omPmTJB0WyeLCXL57SL1bzkJmgVyZKrUOUsnrg2l/nZmj0trryDU3QMkCg3JVqgkcXYQiXNuxVliNhNbzSGh9+CYFcHA2ce3uHz+Nllm/349kGuq086llS4k7JAMaChji72s/0jU5x7N3ChtJVtQXl7WIOA= Received: by 10.90.94.2 with SMTP id r2mr390419agb; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 03:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.98.12 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 03:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8a0028260609010320q58e323a8sdf18fcb83c467f9b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:20:53 +0100 From: "Jeff Rollin" To: "Gilbert Fernandes" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, Miod Vallat , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 10:22:29 -0000 On 01/09/06, Gilbert Fernandes wrote: > > I have a dream. > > A dream of unification. > > Having one BSD. Merging the three projects and, why not, keeping > incompatible stuff as options that would be either one or another. > > But when you tell yourself that it cannot be done, you don't even > try it. > > It would require people to not only do it for the sake of their projects, > but for the whole BSD people. Even those who really piss you off in > other projects. > > Because someday, those projects will live on without us. We'll pass on > like everyone. > > Am I alone thinking this ? > > -- BSD isn't Germany. It's more like Korea ;-) Jeff. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 10:42:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46EDC16A4DE for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:42:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tyler@bleepsoft.com) Received: from zeus.lunarpages.com (zeus.lunarpages.com [216.193.211.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4DBA43D4C for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:42:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tyler@bleepsoft.com) Received: from cpe-24-26-238-91.satx.res.rr.com ([24.26.238.91] helo=[192.168.250.100]) by zeus.lunarpages.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.52) id 1GJ6Ty-0002ZM-Er; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 03:42:42 -0700 In-Reply-To: References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <25AD0859-8674-4F1F-A3B0-50A092245C54@bleepsoft.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "R. Tyler Ballance" Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 05:42:21 -0500 To: Gilbert Fernandes X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.2 (Tiger) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - zeus.lunarpages.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bleepsoft.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc list , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 10:42:46 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > It would require people to not only do it for the sake of their > projects, > but for the whole BSD people. Even those who really piss you off in > other projects. > > Because someday, those projects will live on without us. We'll pass on > like everyone. > > Am I alone thinking this ? You're completely right, diversity always hurts an ecosystem *rolls eyes* Let's be serious here, each of the mainstream BSDs have their places, and I'm glad they're separate. I'd run OpenBSD on a soekris box on the fringe of my network, FreeBSD on my 4-way Opteron interactive server, and NetBSD on my Tamagotchi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Tamagotchi). They all have their places, by merging them you lose a lot of the focus of keeping them separate. Besides some largely impractical "good feeling" that we'd derive from unifying the projects, there's absolutely no reason to unify them. And to be frank, some people you don't want to work together, there's a reason DragonFlyBSD forked from FreeBSD, and there's a reason OpenBSD forked from NetBSD; not to say this is a bad thing at all, but trying to make people get along to volunteer their time on a project is outright retarded. Developers who like the goals and team of the FreeBSD project will gravitate that way, same with OpenBSD, NetBSD and DragonFlyBSD. NetBSD isn't having trouble because of OpenBSD forking from it, or from FreeBSD's recent innovations, NetBSD is having trouble because of actions taken by those within the project, unification accomplishes nothing in the realm of practicality. Cheers, - -R. Tyler Ballance -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (Darwin) iD4DBQFE+A6PqO6nEJfroRsRArKFAJjgWGbVS3w1BmmYPThRTRoTWxLvAJsEpzpK 4ZUDjBGTprGcNsOgYYrszw== =SMpu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 10:57:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539BA16A4DE for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:57:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB3D43D49 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:57:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jeff.rollin@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so971024wxd for ; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 03:57:08 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=hqiZYy2tcPlpWIzHIetzxg4JsONuY9KGRjZNdDpSjaH0VpE0V5zVECSur4rje0mjjaBrYZA5wqASGW05zqetmODwEnpIIIFbmTgAy6bZd7mlAbSlGcqBNJoXfzTJkKaxIsfG7GqI+X65njO50cPoSQeZtWn6LRYl/Ow1bZ9k/Ak= Received: by 10.90.113.20 with SMTP id l20mr405430agc; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 03:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.98.12 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 03:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8a0028260609010350p4a391040iedbc37d81bdab442@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:50:35 +0100 From: "Jeff Rollin" To: rsidd@imsc.res.in In-Reply-To: <6a506d980609010247i4bfcafecoaead4b7e45311692@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <200609010011.47347.soralx@cydem.org> <8a0028260609010147w39261a2fk8c3446f57a5f9fa1@mail.gmail.com> <200609010159.40972.soralx@cydem.org> <6a506d980609010247i4bfcafecoaead4b7e45311692@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 10:57:11 -0000 > I may sometimes > want it mounted as /opt instead. SVR4 cruftiness in BSD?! I'm shocked! :-P From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 11:20:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 995BC16A4DE for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:20:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from larry@netsoc.com) Received: from dakota.ucd.ie (dakota.ucd.ie [193.1.169.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C75043D45 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:20:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from larry@netsoc.com) Received: from conversion-daemon.dakota.ucd.ie by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) id <0J4W00201U8FGR00@dakota.ucd.ie> (original mail from larry@netsoc.com) for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:54:38 +0100 (IST) Received: from karma.ucd.ie ([137.43.13.13]) by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTP id <0J4W00L6RUB2A7A0@dakota.ucd.ie>; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:54:38 +0100 (IST) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:54:38 +0100 (IST) From: Larry O'Neill In-reply-to: X-X-Sender: larry@karma.ucd.ie To: Gilbert Fernandes Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, Miod Vallat , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 11:20:32 -0000 On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Gilbert Fernandes wrote: > I have a dream. I have a reality > > A dream of unification. A reality involving separation > > Having one BSD. Merging the three projects and, why not, keeping > incompatible stuff as options that would be either one or another. Having 3 different projects that have very different communities around them. > > But when you tell yourself that it cannot be done, you don't even > try it. It's not ideal, but trying to change it wouldnt be worth the effort > > It would require people to not only do it for the sake of their projects, > but for the whole BSD people. Even those who really piss you off in > other projects. Mixing 3 groups that have such different attitudes would likely be counter-productive. So many zealots, obsessed fanatics, and stubborn prople would cause massife clashes if put together. It would probably lead to an environment that is very difficult to get any progressive development done in, and scare off potential new recruits from joining the project. > > Because someday, those projects will live on without us. We'll pass on > like everyone. Not guarenteed, but it's a nice thought. > > Am I alone thinking this ? No, it's not a necessarily bad idea, just an unrealistic one... > > -- > unzip ; strip ; touch ; grep ; find ; finger ; mount ; fsck ; more ; > yes ; fsck ; umount ; sleep That should have been "umount; make clean; sleep;" L From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 12:14:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F38BE16A4DA for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:14:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from toxahost@gmail.com) Received: from qb-out-0506.google.com (qb-out-0506.google.com [72.14.204.231]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C091A43D55 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:14:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from toxahost@gmail.com) Received: by qb-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id a10so153737qbd for ; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 05:14:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=dCVl9LPYD4iNew7WnLxv/VrqMReY5jwEXqCEC9VNX/CxOXy5MmM1zoIfjFHMJaBBwZpFSf/sF9k/4lU+vdKYSy7PTa/ymp1N+rpF9RnVqFri0r/ncuYTRm07HehykwU5LwbiUiTlW6cVIHeunAphpYDgat59JG/n02wmtcT737w= Received: by 10.35.107.20 with SMTP id j20mr491533pym; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 05:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.12.10 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 05:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:12:35 +0400 From: "Anton Karpov" To: "Gilbert Fernandes" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, Miod Vallat , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 12:14:19 -0000 2006/9/1, Gilbert Fernandes : > > I have a dream. > > A dream of unification. > > Having one BSD. Merging the three projects and, why not, keeping > incompatible stuff as options that would be either one or another. Opensource is about choice. If you don't like something, when fork it and do it as you wish. That's why we have 3 open BSDs (not OpenBSDs ;)). Period. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 01:07:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFBAF16A4DA; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:07:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 899A243D58; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 01:07:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B39C290C6D; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:07:30 -0300 (ADT) Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 39879-05; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:07:28 -0300 (ADT) Received: by hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1046) id 9F987290C98; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:07:22 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97C3C290C6D; Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:07:22 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:07:22 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" X-X-Sender: freebsd@hub.org To: Jeff Rollin In-Reply-To: <8a0028260608311655o7d34977cg2ad4465c4618781a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060831220609.B82634@hub.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060831223543.GC15085@jp.animata.net> <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> <8a0028260608311655o7d34977cg2ad4465c4618781a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 12:15:37 +0000 Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , Pedro Martelletto , "Constantine A. Murenin" , "Marc G. Fournier" , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:07:43 -0000 On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, Jeff Rollin wrote: > On 01/09/06, Marc G. Fournier wrote: >> >> so, should I then switch to Linux because they do welcome >> 'vendor written drivers'? > > > If by 'vendor-written drivers' you mean binary-only drivers, then no, the > linux kernel developers emphatically do not accept them. They would much > prefer that all vendors release open source drivers, since (amongst other > things) if they do, that means they (the LKD's) will be responsible for > making sure that when the device driver ABI changes, all open-source drivers > are rewritten and recompiled to work with that version of the kernel. Nope, definitely not binary-only ... I meant source code drivers provided by a vendor, and supported by them ... apologies if I gave the impression that "binary-only drivers" where acceptable :( From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 15:27:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E53816A4DA; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:27:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mycroft@MIT.EDU) Received: from multics.mit.edu (MULTICS.MIT.EDU [18.187.1.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D693343D70; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:27:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mycroft@MIT.EDU) Received: (from mycroft@localhost) by multics.mit.edu (8.12.9.20060308) id k81FRX57028661; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:27:32 -0400 From: "Charles M. Hannum" To: "Marc G. Fournier" , "Constantine A. Murenin" , misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20060901152732.GR10101@multics.mit.edu> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060831230813.GA28455@petunia.outback.escape.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060831230813.GA28455@petunia.outback.escape.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Cc: Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 15:27:42 -0000 On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 01:08:13AM +0200, Matthias Kilian wrote: > They don't have to write device drivers at all, they just should > write good documentation. Unfortunately, the "documentation" often isn't so hot either. I'll give you an example. Even with both code and "documentation" from Realtek, we still had to reverse engineer how some parts of the RTL8180 work. And though it works now, our understanding is still incomplete. It is far easier for a manufacturer to spew out a Windows driver in-house, where they have direct access to the people who designed the hardware, so this is what they do. The Windows driver model is pretty much designed around this approach. What we really want is not just documentation, but support from their engineers. The Linux community is starting to get this in some places. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 16:15:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 078C516A4DE for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:15:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from whyzzi@gmail.com) Received: from hu-out-0102.google.com (hu-out-0506.google.com [72.14.214.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D289B43D5D for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:15:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from whyzzi@gmail.com) Received: by hu-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 16so17784hue for ; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 09:15:20 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OLwH73PdXII648hDU/Fl4HMZ/gb3+YRlhv7shDE3N3KcvY34tINIw9i9AXD2hrTO1rTrGT6OVCU+5amomSnqs7/SW2FApUAyUmfV1qOqEnMb1aGPeRn2popPHgCtVAax68zxL4kifuylgaA7vJaYb1y9ysTE3Xx9kFJElVvG/wQ= Received: by 10.67.10.12 with SMTP id n12mr1291694ugi; Fri, 01 Sep 2006 09:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.238.5 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3de381120609010915n6b4762e1ie92bc7546cc4e3ea@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 10:15:19 -0600 From: Whyzzi To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060831223543.GC15085@jp.animata.net> <20060831195609.P82634@hub.org> Cc: Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 16:15:26 -0000 I was happy to continue lurking and not trolling, but it appears some Open Source users still don't get it, and I figured perhaps by saying it again might enlighten a few more. On 31/08/06, Marc G. Fournier wrote: >what my point is, though, is if we aren't willing to > accept 'vendor written drivers', then it is *we* that are limiting our > growth but limiting what hardware we can run stably on ... Sadly, you've twisted the point in the wrong direction. Since we aren't willing to accept 'vendor written drivers', those vendors don't deserve our advocacy or our dollars. *We* did not limit our growth, the vendors limit theirs: by not being able to sell to our market. Time and Again I've seen the OpenBSD team make a request documentation in order to make drivers, time and again I've seen that request denied. Simply put, the vendor is closing their door on a chance to make more revenue and thus increase profits for their company by not providing the correct documentation to open source developers. I'll go back to lurking now. Peter Verhagen PS: Vote with your $$$ people. It works! /* status: just an OpenBSD [l]user */ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 16:52:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134E116A4E0 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:52:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (66-23-211-162.clients.speedfactory.net [66.23.211.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7383543D69 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:52:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k81Gnn2P036325; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:49:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:57:27 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <20060831230813.GA28455@petunia.outback.escape.de> <20060901152732.GR10101@multics.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20060901152732.GR10101@multics.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200609011157.29065.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 01 Sep 2006 12:49:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.3/1784/Fri Sep 1 08:00:05 2006 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , "Charles M. Hannum" , "Constantine A. Murenin" , "Marc G. Fournier" , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 16:52:33 -0000 On Friday 01 September 2006 11:27, Charles M. Hannum wrote: > On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 01:08:13AM +0200, Matthias Kilian wrote: > > They don't have to write device drivers at all, they just should > > write good documentation. > > Unfortunately, the "documentation" often isn't so hot either. I'll > give you an example. Even with both code and "documentation" from > Realtek, we still had to reverse engineer how some parts of the RTL8180 > work. And though it works now, our understanding is still incomplete. > > It is far easier for a manufacturer to spew out a Windows driver > in-house, where they have direct access to the people who designed the > hardware, so this is what they do. The Windows driver model is pretty > much designed around this approach. > > What we really want is not just documentation, but support from their > engineers. The Linux community is starting to get this in some places. Yes. In many cases, the reason a company doesn't want to release documentation is because it doesn't really exist, except in phone calls or e-mails between the Windows driver writer and the hardware guys. Software folks are notorious for poor documentation. It would be unrealistic for us to expect hardware folks to do a substantially better job. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 18:40:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2145916A59B for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:40:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chefren@pi.net) Received: from smtp-vbr16.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr16.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.36]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F30CF43D49 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:40:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chefren@pi.net) Received: from [192.168.0.58] (82-171-121-197.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl [82.171.121.197]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr16.xs4all.nl (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k81Ie994097967; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 20:40:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from chefren@pi.net) Message-ID: <44F87E89.9040902@pi.net> Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 20:40:09 +0200 From: chefren User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; OpenBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20060301 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Charles M. Hannum" References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Cc: misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:40:17 -0000 On 08/31/06 01:27, Charles M. Hannum wrote: > The NetBSD Project has stagnated to the point of irrelevance. Stop whining and spamming to get interest for your broken project and start doing something interesting, this "future of..." has clearly nothing to do with that. "Shut up and code!" instead of spreading stupid politics. ---chefren From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 2 09:18:01 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9615B16A4DF for ; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 09:18:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from cydem.org (S0106000103ce4c9c.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.27.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D931943D49 for ; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 09:18:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from soralx.cydem.org (unknown [192.168.0.249]) by cydem.org (Postfix/FreeBSD) with ESMTP id AF87190ACE; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 02:17:59 -0700 (PDT) From: soralx@cydem.org To: rsidd@imsc.res.in Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 02:17:58 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <200609010159.40972.soralx@cydem.org> <6a506d980609010247i4bfcafecoaead4b7e45311692@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6a506d980609010247i4bfcafecoaead4b7e45311692@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200609020217.58517.soralx@cydem.org> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 09:18:01 -0000 > > > If you didn't instruct it to play a movie, why it does that? > > > You did: by putting the disc in. > > Bad logic. Putting the disc in != requesting (or wanting) to play a movie. > Indeed, no. And putting a CD-ROM in doesn't mean I want to mount it > or read it. And putting in a memory stick doesn't mean I want to read it > either. But, well over 99% of the time, these things are what I want to do. May be, but it still does not mean that what you want will be done right, seen below[0] for possible scenarios. > If I want to do something else with the DVD, well, I close the movie player > and do something else. But 99% of the time, I'm grateful for the time > it saves me. Switch to a vitual screen with console and type `mplayer dvd://` -- what's so time consuming about that? > Also, if I'm the type who only ever inserts DVDs to rip them or do other > nefarious things, I can always set up the system to *not* open the movie > player automatically. Here is why I care to disagree. Spending time to configure the base system for your needs is understandable ("right" defaults can't be agreed upon by all), but why waste time to configure (turn off) all the bells and whistles? I like FreeBSD as it is now, and I'd hate to see it turn into an OS that thinks it knows all (not unlike some extremely popular OS out there. Ahem). Fortunately, I know this won't happen. I may not mind much if the desktop environment tries to play DVDs by itself, for instance, but if there are more things like that, I'd just use another OS, because clearly the goals of such system are incompatible with mine. Who the hell cares about me, yes, but I suppose it's fair to say that my goals are similar to those of BSD, and, as such, are representative of many other people. It's a no way to judge how user-frindly an OS is by whether it is able to do fancy things you described or not. FBSD is 'lacking' this functionality not because it's hard to implement, but because it's not very useful. If it was to be done properly, then you'd need to install some logic unit with serious AI. Until that time, it's best to have the machine just do things that it's good at: follow commands. > But then most BSD users see things differently. How does the system > know that I *want* /dev/ad1s2c mounted as /usr/local? I may sometimes > want it mounted as /opt instead. It's a convention. Conventions are no standards, but they are still useful. Nothing stops you from mounting it wherever you wish. [0] What if you: are already watching a movie? - have more than 1 dvd-rom and insert 2 disks at the same time, will it automagically play the first part? Will it play the second part after? Will it pause for 15 minutes before playing second dvd, so you can go make some tea? - inserted dvd to launch video without sound (to see what's on it), say, because you are listening to music? - forget that speaker volume is very high, and put in a dvd just to remove it from bench so it doesn't collect dust, and view it later (and it's 3 o'clock)? - don't even want to mount the cd, but just want to check the media manufacturer, to see how long the media will last? And then test every CD from the collection? (yeah, turning off DVD auto-play is really useful here) Do you always want the movie to start full-screen? The OS can never know what to do in all circumstances. It should do just what you tell it to -- no less and no more. Imagine if there was a desktop environ that had it's own ideas on the above and assumed that, for instance, you want to see all movies fullscreen, always with sound, play from cd0, pause 15 min, play from cd1, etc. Do you think it would be convenient to use? Break out your flame-proof suits, gentlemen (and ladies too, of course). :) For those who really feel like flaming, I have a flame extinguisher handy (it's heavy and looks like a baseball bat!) ;) [SorAlx] ridin' VN1500-B2 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 2 21:38:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB5616A4DA for ; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 21:38:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from schwarze@usta.de) Received: from smtp2.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (smtp2.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.185.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D57643D46 for ; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 21:38:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from schwarze@usta.de) Received: from hekate.usta.de (asta-nat.asta.uni-karlsruhe.de [172.22.63.82]) by smtp2.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtp (Exim 4.50 #1) id 1GJdC0-0004R1-JZ; Sat, 02 Sep 2006 23:38:20 +0200 Received: from donnerwolke.usta.de ([172.24.96.3]) by hekate.usta.de with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1GJdC0-0007TX-3v; Sat, 02 Sep 2006 23:38:20 +0200 Received: from selene.usta.de ([172.24.96.2] helo=usta.de) by donnerwolke.usta.de with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1GJdC0-00020w-5D; Sat, 02 Sep 2006 23:38:20 +0200 Received: from schwarze by usta.de with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1GJdBz-00061W-Ez; Sat, 02 Sep 2006 23:38:19 +0200 Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 23:38:19 +0200 From: Ingo Schwarze To: misc@openbsd.org Message-ID: <20060902213819.GA16206@selene.usta.de> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 21:38:25 -0000 Gilbert Fernandes wrote on Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 11:59:57AM +0200: > I have a dream. A dream of unification. Having one BSD. > Merging the three projects and, why not, keeping incompatible > stuff as options that would be either one or another. Horrors! Options are mostly against the goals of OpenBSD. I, for one, want as little of them as possible. The less complicated something is, the easier it is to maintain. Correctness is too often sacrificed to complexity. That's exactly the main reason why i hate Debian GNU/Linux so much. Options abound, and at least 95% of them are completely useless. You can hardly imagine how much time i already lost digging through literally thousands of lines of completely useless script files, scripts that are advertised for option management - desperately trying to track down some problem in Debian that would have been completely trivial to solve when encountered while using OpenBSD. Some of the worst examples that come to mind look like /etc/cron.* /etc/logrotate.d /etc/alternatives /etc/init.d /etc/rc?.d, runlevels in general and the grub boot manager - and last not least that whole dpkg-query/dpkg-deb/dpkg/apt-cache/apt-get/dselect/aptitude jungle. Zillions of options - and you can not even decide to not use most of them, but are usually forced to learn at least a bit about nearly all of them. Besides, i don't want an option to compile a blob-free kernel, but i want a completely free operating system. Besides, i don't want security options but security by default. It is nice NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD developers have the option to freely copy code from each other whenever it fits the need at hand. It is also nice to have the option to run either. But stay away from me with any additional options... By the way, there are also a few corners in OpenBSD where options are overdone - if i understand correctly, mostly for historical reasons. The standard example of course is mailwrapper(8) - well, even the man page says so. But i would gladly trash securelevel(7), too, just to give one additional example.