From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 10 00:14:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E63116A403 for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:14:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tg@mirbsd.de) Received: from smtp2.netcologne.de (smtp2.netcologne.de [194.8.194.112]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89D1F43D4C for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:14:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tg@mirbsd.de) Received: from herc.66h.42h.de (xdsl-213-196-246-29.netcologne.de [213.196.246.29]) by smtp2.netcologne.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB104C23; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 02:14:20 +0200 (MEST) Received: from localhost.66h.42h.de (tg@localhost.66h.42h.de [IPv6:::1]) by herc.66h.42h.de (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k8A06ZlJ004229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:06:36 GMT Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:06:35 +0000 (UTC) From: Thorsten Glaser X-X-Sender: tg@herc.66h.42h.de In-Reply-To: <20060909182107.U10669@ganymede.hub.org> Message-ID: References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> <29ca6cf80609091342r664eba09u1f369d3210c14d18@mail.gmail.com> <20060909182107.U10669@ganymede.hub.org> X-Message-Flag: Your mailer is broken. Get an update at http://www.washington.edu/pine/getpine/pcpine.html for free. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:14:30 -0000 Marc G. Fournier dixit: > And what I'm learning with bsdstats.org is that there are more then just those > four ... GNU/kFreeBSD is reporting Now _that_'s funny ;) > are there any others? DragonFly DesktopBSD PC-BSD 4.3BSD-Quasijarus ekkoBSD (dead) MidnightBSD (nascent) MicroBSD (once dead, but apparently undead...) emBSD picoBSD nanoBSD The latter three are probably just stripped-down versions of the bigger ones. I think there are even more than these I listed above. The five big ones are DF/Free/Mir/Net/Open though. Daniel Seuffert (from AllBSD.de) today said he intends that your script to be installed AND ENABLED BY DEFAULT in every BSD release/snapshot, and he will definitively enable it in DesktopBSD 2.0. I will probably do the same for MirOS, as I currently don't have a way to even estimate the user base, other than bittorrent downloads, and it does not transmit any data qualifying as 'sensitive', uses almost no resources and is low-bandwidth. (We'll have to add some "jitter" to the execution time, though.) bye, //mirabile -- "Using Lynx is like wearing a really good pair of shades: cuts out the glare and harmful UV (ultra-vanity), and you feel so-o-o COOL." -- Henry Nelson, March 1999 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 10 00:31:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6533816A5CF for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:31:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D39B243D45 for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:31:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDF8291B03; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:31:48 -0300 (ADT) Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.208.251]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11609-04; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:32:02 -0300 (ADT) Received: from ganymede.hub.org (blk-137-86-60.eastlink.ca [24.137.86.60]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D619291AFE; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:31:48 -0300 (ADT) Received: by ganymede.hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1027) id 1341A354CD; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:31:49 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ganymede.hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF1835416; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:31:49 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:31:49 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" X-X-Sender: freebsd@ganymede.hub.org To: Thorsten Glaser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060909213122.Q1031@ganymede.hub.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> <29ca6cf80609091342r664eba09u1f369d3210c14d18@mail.gmail.com> <20060909182107.U10669@ganymede.hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:31:52 -0000 On Sun, 10 Sep 2006, Thorsten Glaser wrote: > Daniel Seuffert (from AllBSD.de) today said he intends that your script > to be installed AND ENABLED BY DEFAULT in every BSD release/snapshot, > and he will definitively enable it in DesktopBSD 2.0. I will probably do > the same for MirOS, as I currently don't have a way to even estimate the > user base, other than bittorrent downloads, and it does not transmit any > data qualifying as 'sensitive', uses almost no resources and is > low-bandwidth. (We'll have to add some "jitter" to the execution time, > though.) Check out the newest version, which adds 'jitter' ... :) ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 10 02:43:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB4BB16A500 for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 02:43:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwc@stilyagin.com) Received: from puffy.asicommunications.com (puffy.asicommunications.com [216.9.200.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8969343D46 for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 02:43:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dwc@stilyagin.com) Received: from zloy.stilyagin.com (71-35-25-152.phnx.qwest.net [71.35.25.152]) by puffy.asicommunications.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k8A2h1G3014677 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 9 Sep 2006 19:43:02 -0700 (MST) Received: (from dwc@localhost) by zloy.stilyagin.com (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k8A2gsw8027725; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 19:42:54 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 19:42:53 -0700 From: Darrin Chandler To: Thorsten Glaser Message-ID: <20060910024253.GX27121@zloy.stilyagin.com> References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> <29ca6cf80609091342r664eba09u1f369d3210c14d18@mail.gmail.com> <20060909182107.U10669@ganymede.hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 02:43:05 -0000 If you're going to keep chatting about the bsdstats thing would you please stop cross posting to so many lists? It's very irritating. -- Darrin Chandler | Phoenix BSD Users Group dwchandler@stilyagin.com | http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ | From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 10 04:01:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 669B616A40F for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 04:01:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from suck@my-balls.com) Received: from aries.siriushosting.com (aries.siriushosting.com [69.90.216.180]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3CC43D46 for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2006 04:01:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from suck@my-balls.com) Received: from laptop.my.domain (CPE000e0c2c742e-CM001371140156.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [70.25.115.53]) (authenticated bits=0) by aries.siriushosting.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8A41eBP018684 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:01:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:01:38 -0400 From: Adam To: Thorsten Glaser Message-ID: <20060910000138.77e0dd80@laptop.my.domain> In-Reply-To: References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> <29ca6cf80609091342r664eba09u1f369d3210c14d18@mail.gmail.com> <20060909182107.U10669@ganymede.hub.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.9.6 (GTK+ 2.8.19; i386-unknown-openbsd3.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 04:01:44 -0000 Thorsten Glaser wrote: > Marc G. Fournier dixit: > > > And what I'm learning with bsdstats.org is that there are more then just those > > four ... GNU/kFreeBSD is reporting > > Now _that_'s funny ;) -snip- > The five big ones are DF/Free/Mir/Net/Open though. Not as funny as that............^^^ Adam From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 11 10:11:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5A216A40F for ; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:11:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D56D43D5A for ; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:11:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (tmzebi@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8BABJdA053457; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:11:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id k8BABFtn053456; Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:11:15 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:11:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200609111011.k8BABFtn053456@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.0-20051224 ("Ronay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-STABLE (i386)) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:11:25 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:11:28 -0000 Thorsten Glaser wrote: > Marc G. Fournier dixit: > > > And what I'm learning with bsdstats.org is that there are more then just those > > four ... GNU/kFreeBSD is reporting > > Now _that_'s funny ;) Yes, indeed. Some people are really wasting their time. > > are there any others? > > DragonFly Is already included on bsdstats.org. > DesktopBSD > PC-BSD Those two aren't separate operating systems, but rather FreeBSD with a custom GUI on top (live-FS / installer). They shouldn't be counted separately. > [...] > picoBSD > nanoBSD > > The latter three are probably just stripped-down versions of > the bigger ones. True. It could be argued whether they should be counted separately. Personally I don't think they should. The "big ones" are clearly DragonFly, Free-, Net- and OpenBSD. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing Dienstleistungen mit Schwerpunkt FreeBSD: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way. cat man du : where Unix geeks go when they die From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 13 22:49:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02CDC16A518; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:49:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from abs@absd.org) Received: from emlyn.absd.org (emlyn.absd.org [81.5.163.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A592943D4C; Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:49:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from abs@absd.org) Received: from abs (helo=localhost) by emlyn.absd.org with local-esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GNAbv-0001Jg-8m; Tue, 12 Sep 2006 16:55:43 +0100 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 16:55:43 +0100 (BST) From: David Brownlee To: "Constantine A. Murenin" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> <20060831230642.GH25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831201338.F82634@hub.org> <20060905070219.GC13764@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20060905141802.GB5021@peereboom.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: David Brownlee Cc: netbsd-users@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, Marco Peereboom , "Marc G. Fournier" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org Subject: Re: "BLOB"s (Was: The future of NetBSD) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:49:33 -0000 On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: > Indeed! When something brakes, do you want it to continue to work as > if nothing has happened and lose your data silently, or do you want it > to give you some indication that it needs attention? > > * With binary drivers, it's always broken (and if it's not, it's > guaranteed to be broken in the future), but some people tend to > [foolishly] think that it's working. > > * With drivers written from proper documentation by developers who > know their OS, it just works. > > BTW, I'd argue that the same principle applies to the > manufacturer-supplied drivers for closed-source operating systems like > Windows -- it's better to have the drivers written by people who know > the OS it's written under, not by some random people hired by the > company that produced the hardware (which would never be the same > people who designed the hardware anyway, because people who design > hardware don't usually write software for it, and vice-versa). I'm going to regret this but... Taken to its logical conclusion, you should also avoid any piece of hardware with onboard firmware which is not open sourced... so, thats most SCSI cards, video cards, wireless cards... don't forget the PC BIOS... Yes, opensource drivers are preferred to closed source, be the latter closed source object code that gets linked into a kernel, or firmware on a device, but sometimes the closed source allows more devices of that type to get into use for a given OS, which increases the chance of one getting into the hands of a developer with the time and skill to support it properly. Personally I would pay a reasonable premium to get a device for which an open source driver exists, but there are occasions when I have to repurpose existing hardware, or budget/driver availability means I have to use something with a closed source driver. Its very much a second choice, but it is there. -- David/absolute -- www.NetBSD.org: No hype required --