From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 14 07:16:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F26116A404 for ; Sun, 14 May 2006 07:16:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nec556@retena.com) Received: from smtp05.retemail.es (smtp05.auna.com [62.81.186.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66AFB43D48 for ; Sun, 14 May 2006 07:16:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nec556@retena.com) Received: from dander.retena.com ([212.21.232.99]) by smtp05.retemail.es (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with ESMTP id <20060514071618.HMYE2215.smtp05.retemail.es@dander.retena.com> for ; Sun, 14 May 2006 09:16:18 +0200 Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20060514091549.01e2a4d8@pop3.retena.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 09:16:48 +0200 To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org From: Eduardo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Auth-Info: Auth:LOGIN IP:[212.21.232.99] Login:nec556@retena.com Fecha:Sun, 14 May 2006 09:16:18 +0200 Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 07:16:21 -0000 Sorry, i reply it directly to gnn, not to the list. At 05:23 12/05/2006, you wrote: >Hi, > >I gave the following short talk at the BSDCan DevSummit. This is the >first attempt at a list of things to do in getting us better >represented in the embedded systems space. > >The slides are at: > >http://people.freebsd.org/~gnn/EFreeBSD.pdf > >Comments welcome. Is this really possible:? Sorry for be a bit unoptimist, but in the embeded space the o.s.must follow some rules that freebsd (nor linux, *bsd, windows, etc..) can't: - size: The o.s. must be minimal. Freebsd kernel, now, is a bit huge. - realtime: The o.s. must do some tasks at fixed times, this tasks can't wait for nothing. The size one can be fixed, but the realtime not. It needs a new scheleude, irq manager,...; so a great kernel rework. Also, you forget the PowerPC chips. They are in a lot of embedded devices and now freebsd has support for them (6.x). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Useful Acronymous : FAQ = Frequently 'Answered' Questions From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 14 15:47:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 679BA16A480 for ; Sun, 14 May 2006 15:47:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from mrout1.yahoo.com (mrout1.yahoo.com [216.145.54.171]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A4843D45 for ; Sun, 14 May 2006 15:47:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from minion.lan.neville-neil.com (proxy8.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.48.13]) by mrout1.yahoo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4/y.out) with ESMTP id k4EFjFNB085057; Sun, 14 May 2006 08:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 11:45:14 -0400 Message-ID: From: gnn@freebsd.org To: Eduardo In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20060514091549.01e2a4d8@pop3.retena.com> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20060514091549.01e2a4d8@pop3.retena.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-apple-darwin8.5.1) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 15:47:06 -0000 At Sun, 14 May 2006 09:16:48 +0200, Eduardo wrote: > Is this really possible:? Sorry for be a bit unoptimist, but in the > embeded space the o.s.must follow some rules that freebsd (nor > linux, *bsd, windows, etc..) can't: > > - size: The o.s. must be minimal. Freebsd kernel, now, is a bit huge. > - realtime: The o.s. must do some tasks at fixed times, this tasks > can't wait for nothing. > > The size one can be fixed, but the realtime not. It needs a new > scheleude, irq manager,...; so a great kernel rework. Perhaps you mis-understand the thrust of this drive, in that we are not talking about turning FreeBSD into an RTOS, at least not in the short term, but about making it more amenable to embedded. There is much to do but it will be a gradual process. Size and configuration are the first things to address. > Also, you forget the PowerPC chips. They are in a lot of embedded > devices and now freebsd has support for them (6.x). We did not forget them but amongst those who have shown interest in this project ARM and MIPS are the clear leaders. If we find people who wish to address the PowerPC chips as well, all the better. One other important component in this work is focus. We cannot be all things to all people, at least not at the outset, so two different processors and two or three reference boards for each are where we plan to start. Later, George From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 14 15:49:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3510216A400; Sun, 14 May 2006 15:49:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from mrout1.yahoo.com (mrout1.yahoo.com [216.145.54.171]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA1A743D48; Sun, 14 May 2006 15:49:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from minion.lan.neville-neil.com (proxy8.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.48.13]) by mrout1.yahoo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4/y.out) with ESMTP id k4EFmffI085494; Sun, 14 May 2006 08:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 11:48:40 -0400 Message-ID: From: gnn@FreeBSD.org To: Daniel Eischen In-Reply-To: References: <20060513103640.GL69354@cicely12.cicely.de> <20060513085933.R986@odysseus.silby.com> <20060513151305.GP69354@cicely12.cicely.de> <20060513.115539.74661598.imp@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-apple-darwin8.5.1) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.org, gallatin@cs.duke.edu, jhb@FreeBSD.org, silby@silby.com, ticso@cicely12.cicely.de, wb@freebie.xs4all.nl, ticso@cicely.de Subject: Eclipse for Embedded FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 15:49:30 -0000 At Sun, 14 May 2006 11:02:17 -0400 (EDT), Daniel Eischen wrote: > > On Sat, 13 May 2006, Warner Losh wrote: > > >>>> Currently I have an ARM board in development which I intended to use > >>>> FreeBSD on, but now I'm afraid that FreeBSD/ARM could die as well in a > >>>> few years forcing me to change to NetBSD, but then why start with > >>>> FreeBSD at all? > > > > I can tell you that my company has committed to an ARM design. Unless > > there something really bad that we've not hit, we'll be supporting it > > for at least 10 years in the field. I'm planning on adding support > > for additional designs. Jean-Mark is adding support for Cirrus Logic > > ARM-9 boards (at least one anyway). Benno Rice is adding support for > > the gumsticks. Other folks at BSDCan have suggested that they will be > > doing their own devices in the near future, but have asked me to keep > > their names and projects under my hat. I'll likely do at least one > > more arm board. There's much interest in taking FreeBSD/arm and > > FreeBSD/i386 (and other archs when they are ready) to the next level > > of embedding. > > And what is the next level of embedding? An easily configured > GUI or Eclipse plugin thingy that lets you configure and build > your target, and also shows your your memory requirements for > each selected component? And will it have a VME bus driver? > Please give us another alternative to vxWorks :-) Would you prefer Linux or CE then? ;-) And, more seriously, it very much depends on those who work on it. Clearly our current configuration systems (text files) are not going to be useful to the majority of people who wish to configure an OS vs. those who are going to hack on the core of it. So, if you have a suggestion we'd love to hear it. BTW I moved this off of src to small because that's where this question actually belongs and where we'll be discussing such things. Later, George From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 14 18:45:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96FED16A403; Sun, 14 May 2006 18:45:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.ntplx.net (mail.ntplx.net [204.213.176.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E734443D49; Sun, 14 May 2006 18:45:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from sea.ntplx.net (sea.ntplx.net [204.213.176.11]) by mail.ntplx.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id k4EIiW1g013362; Sun, 14 May 2006 14:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 14:44:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen X-X-Sender: eischen@sea.ntplx.net To: gnn@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060513103640.GL69354@cicely12.cicely.de> <20060513085933.R986@odysseus.silby.com> <20060513151305.GP69354@cicely12.cicely.de> <20060513.115539.74661598.imp@bsdimp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.ntplx.net) Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org, gallatin@cs.duke.edu, jhb@freebsd.org, silby@silby.com, ticso@cicely12.cicely.de, wb@freebie.xs4all.nl, ticso@cicely.de Subject: Re: Eclipse for Embedded FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Daniel Eischen List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 18:45:09 -0000 On Sun, 14 May 2006, gnn@FreeBSD.org wrote: > At Sun, 14 May 2006 11:02:17 -0400 (EDT), > Daniel Eischen wrote: >> >> On Sat, 13 May 2006, Warner Losh wrote: >>> I can tell you that my company has committed to an ARM design. Unless >>> there something really bad that we've not hit, we'll be supporting it >>> for at least 10 years in the field. I'm planning on adding support >>> for additional designs. Jean-Mark is adding support for Cirrus Logic >>> ARM-9 boards (at least one anyway). Benno Rice is adding support for >>> the gumsticks. Other folks at BSDCan have suggested that they will be >>> doing their own devices in the near future, but have asked me to keep >>> their names and projects under my hat. I'll likely do at least one >>> more arm board. There's much interest in taking FreeBSD/arm and >>> FreeBSD/i386 (and other archs when they are ready) to the next level >>> of embedding. >> >> And what is the next level of embedding? An easily configured >> GUI or Eclipse plugin thingy that lets you configure and build >> your target, and also shows your your memory requirements for >> each selected component? And will it have a VME bus driver? >> Please give us another alternative to vxWorks :-) > > Would you prefer Linux or CE then? ;-) No, I confess I still use a series of makefiles using ln, lndir, cp, et. al. to build vxWorks images. One reason I dislike vxWorks is that you need write rights to the installation directory, and it annoys the hell out of me that I have to work around it so that anyone without privileges can build. But the GUI-based tools to configure VxWorks, Linux, CE, or whatever, are attractive to the majority of developers and most especially look good to the people who are responsible for justifying and buying them. _We_ might snub our noses at such tools, but they look good to others. > And, more seriously, it very much depends on those who work on it. > Clearly our current configuration systems (text files) are not going > to be useful to the majority of people who wish to configure an OS > vs. those who are going to hack on the core of it. So, if you have a > suggestion we'd love to hear it. Well, see above. A GUI-based configuration tool, with tree-like heirarchy of dependencies and space requirements would be useful. Eclipse seems to be the standard for such things, but I admit I've never used it. And for industrial controls and military applications, a VME bus (nexus) driver supporting device drivers and mmap'able VME A32, A24, & A16 space would be great. -- DE From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 14 19:17:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3578F16A41F; Sun, 14 May 2006 19:17:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from smithi@nimnet.asn.au) Received: from gaia.nimnet.asn.au (nimbin.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.45.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D42FD43D58; Sun, 14 May 2006 19:17:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from smithi@nimnet.asn.au) Received: from localhost (smithi@localhost) by gaia.nimnet.asn.au (8.8.8/8.8.8R1.4) with SMTP id FAA13048; Mon, 15 May 2006 05:17:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from smithi@nimnet.asn.au) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 05:17:21 +1000 (EST) From: Ian Smith To: gnn@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 19:17:32 -0000 On Sun, 14 May 2006 gnn@freebsd.org wrote: > At Sun, 14 May 2006 09:16:48 +0200, > Eduardo wrote: > > Is this really possible:? Sorry for be a bit unoptimist, but in the > > embeded space the o.s.must follow some rules that freebsd (nor > > linux, *bsd, windows, etc..) can't: > > > > - size: The o.s. must be minimal. Freebsd kernel, now, is a bit huge. > > - realtime: The o.s. must do some tasks at fixed times, this tasks > > can't wait for nothing. > > > > The size one can be fixed, but the realtime not. It needs a new > > scheleude, irq manager,...; so a great kernel rework. I've been subscribed to realtime@ (& small@) forever just for interest, and scarcely a peep on the former .. yes it would be great to see that sort of work done. Meanwhile uPs are getting bigger at such a rate that at least the size issue has become less critical - ie, doable. And getting fast enough that kHz slicing and rtprio will do for lots of applications that aren't less than millisecond critical .. > Perhaps you mis-understand the thrust of this drive, in that we are > not talking about turning FreeBSD into an RTOS, at least not in the > short term, but about making it more amenable to embedded. Saw your slides and think it's a terrific project, for what a fairly clueless, mostly broke yet still fascinated lurker's view is worth :) > There is much to do but it will be a gradual process. Size and > configuration are the first things to address. > > > Also, you forget the PowerPC chips. They are in a lot of embedded > > devices and now freebsd has support for them (6.x). > > We did not forget them but amongst those who have shown interest in > this project ARM and MIPS are the clear leaders. If we find people > who wish to address the PowerPC chips as well, all the better. One > other important component in this work is focus. We cannot be all > things to all people, at least not at the outset, so two different > processors and two or three reference boards for each are where we > plan to start. These are still Big Iron to me; I'm slowly kitting up to play with a little twin-cpu ATtiny45 board in mostly assembler using avr-tools and such, which I know isn't related to what's going on in here at all, but I'll be lapping it up anyway .. Best o'luck, Ian From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 14 19:21:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE49C16A421; Sun, 14 May 2006 19:21:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from mrout2.yahoo.com (mrout2.yahoo.com [216.145.54.172]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035E343D5D; Sun, 14 May 2006 19:21:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from minion.lan.neville-neil.com (proxy8.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.48.13]) by mrout2.yahoo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4/y.out) with ESMTP id k4EJJOip068187; Sun, 14 May 2006 12:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 14:19:23 -0500 Message-ID: From: gnn@freebsd.org To: Daniel Eischen In-Reply-To: References: <20060513103640.GL69354@cicely12.cicely.de> <20060513085933.R986@odysseus.silby.com> <20060513151305.GP69354@cicely12.cicely.de> <20060513.115539.74661598.imp@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-apple-darwin8.5.1) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org, gallatin@cs.duke.edu, jhb@freebsd.org, silby@silby.com, ticso@cicely12.cicely.de, wb@freebie.xs4all.nl, ticso@cicely.de Subject: Re: Eclipse for Embedded FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 19:21:39 -0000 At Sun, 14 May 2006 14:44:32 -0400 (EDT), Daniel Eischen wrote: > > Would you prefer Linux or CE then? ;-) > > No, I confess I still use a series of makefiles using ln, > lndir, cp, et. al. to build vxWorks images. One reason I > dislike vxWorks is that you need write rights to the > installation directory, and it annoys the hell out of me > that I have to work around it so that anyone without > privileges can build. > My condolences, but it beats their configuration tool, I know, I worked there :-) > But the GUI-based tools to configure VxWorks, Linux, CE, or > whatever, are attractive to the majority of developers and most > especially look good to the people who are responsible for > justifying and buying them. _We_ might snub our noses at such > tools, but they look good to others. See, I thought you were being sarcastic, so, mea culpa. I think it's what we'll have to do as well, but I don't think I'll be writing it. No one wants to see my UI skills :-) > Well, see above. A GUI-based configuration tool, with tree-like > heirarchy of dependencies and space requirements would be useful. > Eclipse seems to be the standard for such things, but I admit I've > never used it. > I've not used it either. > And for industrial controls and military applications, a VME bus > (nexus) driver supporting device drivers and mmap'able VME A32, A24, > & A16 space would be great. I think we'll need someone working in those areas first, unless, well, you're volunteering ;-) Later, George From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 14 20:56:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A01C16A401; Sun, 14 May 2006 20:56:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from netgate.com (mail.netgate.com [64.62.194.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2113C43D45; Sun, 14 May 2006 20:56:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from [192.168.2.192] (rrcs-67-52-77-54.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.77.54]) by netgate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF6A280066; Sun, 14 May 2006 13:56:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.0.20060514091549.01e2a4d8@pop3.retena.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <141C7316-5D6A-4582-A609-3C8AA341BF94@netgate.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Thompson Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 10:56:14 -1000 To: gnn@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 20:56:31 -0000 On May 14, 2006, at 5:45 AM, gnn@freebsd.org wrote: > At Sun, 14 May 2006 09:16:48 +0200, > Eduardo wrote: >> Is this really possible:? Sorry for be a bit unoptimist, but in the >> embeded space the o.s.must follow some rules that freebsd (nor >> linux, *bsd, windows, etc..) can't: >> >> - size: The o.s. must be minimal. Freebsd kernel, now, is a bit huge. >> - realtime: The o.s. must do some tasks at fixed times, this tasks >> can't wait for nothing. >> >> The size one can be fixed, but the realtime not. It needs a new >> scheleude, irq manager,...; so a great kernel rework. > > Perhaps you mis-understand the thrust of this drive, in that we are > not talking about turning FreeBSD into an RTOS, at least not in the > short term, but about making it more amenable to embedded. > > There is much to do but it will be a gradual process. Size and > configuration are the first things to address. > >> Also, you forget the PowerPC chips. They are in a lot of embedded >> devices and now freebsd has support for them (6.x). > > We did not forget them but amongst those who have shown interest in > this project ARM and MIPS are the clear leaders. If we find people > who wish to address the PowerPC chips as well, all the better. One > other important component in this work is focus. We cannot be all > things to all people, at least not at the outset, so two different > processors and two or three reference boards for each are where we > plan to start. In the embedded world, most people who build their own "SOC" tend to use ARM7, ARM9 or MIPS cores. For instance, Atheros and Broadcom both use a MIPS 4KC core in their WiFi parts. Realtek uses an LX50 core, which is "MIPS minus the patented instructions" (there is a port of GCC which won't issue these instructions). TI uses ARM7 in OMAP, but that platform is probably "too small" for FreeBSD's resource requirements in the immediate future. (Read: lots of work to squeeze FreeBSD onto platforms using OMAP.) Folks who are not ODMs of one of these companies tend to use PowerPC (either IBM's 440 or one of the Freescale parts) or Xscale. Intel did a real "number" on the market starting in 2003 (similar to what they did to the WiFi chip market with Centrino) and essentially drove suppliers of MIPS core parts (such as IDT) into a corner of the market. That said, there are very few "commodity priced" PowerPC boards. I think the most "bang for the buck" will be found porting FreeBSD to Xscale (especially the ixp42x parts) first, followed by PowerPC (because FreeBSD is already running on a (slightly different) PowerPC chipset), and then the various MIPS-based parts that support WiFi or the little switches-with-embedded-MIPS parts. Jim From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 15 00:28:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035F516A404; Mon, 15 May 2006 00:28:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from MTaylor@bytecraft.com.au) Received: from wolf.bytecraft.au.com (wolf.bytecraft.au.com [203.39.118.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056F543D49; Mon, 15 May 2006 00:28:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from MTaylor@bytecraft.com.au) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wolf.bytecraft.au.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k4F0S2fg082936; Mon, 15 May 2006 10:28:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from MTaylor@bytecraft.com.au) Received: from wolf.bytecraft.au.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (wolf.bytecraft.au.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 82741-01-3; Mon, 15 May 2006 00:28:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svmarshal.bytecraft.au.com ([10.0.0.4]) by wolf.bytecraft.au.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k4F0R265082863; Mon, 15 May 2006 10:27:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from MTaylor@bytecraft.com.au) Received: from svmailmel.bytecraft.internal (Not Verified[10.0.0.24]) by svmarshal.bytecraft.au.com with MailMarshal (v5, 0, 3, 78) id ; Mon, 15 May 2006 10:27:01 +1000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:27:00 +1000 Message-ID: <04E232FDCD9FBE43857F7066CAD3C0F117CA31@svmailmel.bytecraft.internal> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... Thread-Index: AcZ3maWY1aEGPd6eTH6isTqGxQGe0AAGRIIg From: "Murray Taylor" To: "Jim Thompson" , Cc: minibsd@ultradesic.com, freebsd-small@freebsd.org, mk@neon1.net Subject: RE: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 00:28:07 -0000 George, Jim et al, Have you looked at the miniBSD build system described below? =20 I just ran an 'embedded' system during the=20 2006 Melbourne Commonwealth Games to monitor the lighting system datanet that was Freebsd 4.11 based, handled SNMP trap monitoring, fping monitoring, SNMP fetch queries and SMS notifications. I had a DHCP server running on the main LAN, dhclient on the WAN port, sshd login and about 60-70 of the basic programs (vi, awk, more, grep, find, sh, csh, gsmsmsd... ) fully available to me. All managed within a couple of shell scripts and a cron job or two. Hardware: 300MHz 486, 32 Meg RM, and a 32 MEG CF flash disk. kernel was minimally downsized by removal of unneeded functions, and was loaded on the flash disk as kernel.gz, to be ungzipped=20 automagically during boot. All other programs had been rebuilt to use dynamic libraries rather than static linkages to reduce the binary sizes. CF space used =09boot partition: approx 22 Meg of 28Meg =09config data partition: approx 20 Kilobytes of 4 Meg NB Config data actually was all the shell scripts and my=20 .conf files. Done this way so that the config partition=20 could be mouunted R/W during shutdown to save all shell scripts and config data that may have been edited / updated since boot. Original minibsd Freebsd 4.7 -> 4.11 https://neon1.net/misc/minibsd.html and derived works Freebsd 5.x http://www.ultradesic.com/index.php?section=3D86 Freebsd 6.x http://www.ultradesic.com/index.php?section=3D125 I didnt do the original work, I just use it, and it is a blast. Particularly useful is keeping a dnode mounted disk image of the CF on the development host. Dead easy to copy new programs to the vnode mount, unmount it, dd a new CF image, and run. Also by temporarily mounting the miniBSD boot partition as R/W, one can do a SCP copy of a file to the CF disk from the development host over the WAN .... Useful, you betcha! Murray Taylor Special Projects Engineer Bytecraft Systems P: +61 3 8710 2555 F: +61 3 8710 2599 D: +61 3 9238 4275 E: mtaylor@bytecraft.com.au=20 -- "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." =20 Albert Einstein=20 --=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-small@freebsd.org=20 > [mailto:owner-freebsd-small@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Jim Thompson > Sent: Monday, 15 May 2006 6:56 AM > To: gnn@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... >=20 >=20 > On May 14, 2006, at 5:45 AM, gnn@freebsd.org wrote: >=20 > > At Sun, 14 May 2006 09:16:48 +0200, > > Eduardo wrote: > >> Is this really possible:? Sorry for be a bit unoptimist,=20 > but in the=20 > >> embeded space the o.s.must follow some rules that freebsd=20 > (nor linux,=20 > >> *bsd, windows, etc..) can't: > >> > >> - size: The o.s. must be minimal. Freebsd kernel, now, is=20 > a bit huge. > >> - realtime: The o.s. must do some tasks at fixed times, this tasks=20 > >> can't wait for nothing. > >> > >> The size one can be fixed, but the realtime not. It needs a new=20 > >> scheleude, irq manager,...; so a great kernel rework. > > > > Perhaps you mis-understand the thrust of this drive, in that we are=20 > > not talking about turning FreeBSD into an RTOS, at least not in the=20 > > short term, but about making it more amenable to embedded. > > > > There is much to do but it will be a gradual process. Size and=20 > > configuration are the first things to address. > > > >> Also, you forget the PowerPC chips. They are in a lot of embedded=20 > >> devices and now freebsd has support for them (6.x). > > > > We did not forget them but amongst those who have shown interest in=20 > > this project ARM and MIPS are the clear leaders. If we find people=20 > > who wish to address the PowerPC chips as well, all the better. One=20 > > other important component in this work is focus. We cannot be all=20 > > things to all people, at least not at the outset, so two different=20 > > processors and two or three reference boards for each are where we=20 > > plan to start. >=20 > In the embedded world, most people who build their own "SOC"=20 > tend to use ARM7, ARM9 or MIPS cores. > For instance, Atheros and Broadcom both use a MIPS 4KC core in their =20 > WiFi parts. Realtek uses an LX50 core, which is "MIPS minus the =20 > patented instructions" (there is a port of GCC which won't=20 > issue these instructions). >=20 > TI uses ARM7 in OMAP, but that platform is probably "too=20 > small" for FreeBSD's resource requirements in the immediate=20 > future. (Read: lots of work to squeeze FreeBSD onto=20 > platforms using OMAP.) >=20 > Folks who are not ODMs of one of these companies tend to use PowerPC =20 > (either IBM's 440 or one of the Freescale parts) or Xscale. Intel =20 > did a real "number" on the market starting in 2003 (similar=20 > to what they did to the WiFi chip market with Centrino) and=20 > essentially drove suppliers of MIPS core parts (such as IDT)=20 > into a corner of the market. >=20 > That said, there are very few "commodity priced" PowerPC boards. >=20 > I think the most "bang for the buck" will be found porting=20 > FreeBSD to Xscale (especially the ixp42x parts) first,=20 > followed by PowerPC (because FreeBSD is already running on a=20 > (slightly different) PowerPC chipset), and then the various=20 > MIPS-based parts that support WiFi or the little=20 > switches-with-embedded-MIPS parts. >=20 > Jim > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-small@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-small > To unsubscribe, send any mail to=20 > "freebsd-small-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 > ***This Email has been scanned for Viruses by MailMarshal.*** >=20 --------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted in this e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended addressee and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, re-transmission, dissemination or other use of it, or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons and/or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please inform the sender and/or addressee immediately and delete the material.=20 E-mails may not be secure, may contain computer viruses and may be corrupted in transmission. Please carefully check this e-mail (and any attachment) accordingly. No warranties are given and no liability is accepted for any loss or damage caused by such matters. --------------------------------------------------------------- ***This Email has been scanned for Viruses by MailMarshal.*** From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 15 11:03:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5FD816A400 for ; Mon, 15 May 2006 11:03:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FDD43D48 for ; Mon, 15 May 2006 11:03:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (peter@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4FB35Aj075372 for ; Mon, 15 May 2006 11:03:05 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k4FB32D9075354 for freebsd-small@freebsd.org; Mon, 15 May 2006 11:03:02 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:03:02 GMT Message-Id: <200605151103.k4FB32D9075354@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: peter set sender to owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Current problem reports assigned to you X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:03:06 -0000 Current FreeBSD problem reports Critical problems Serious problems Non-critical problems S Submitted Tracker Resp. Description ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o [2000/01/04] misc/15876 small PicoBSD message of the day problems o [2001/06/18] misc/28255 small picobsd documentation still references ol o [2002/09/13] kern/42728 small many problems in src/usr.sbin/ppp/* afte o [2003/05/14] misc/52255 small picobsd build script fails under FreeBSD o [2003/05/14] misc/52256 small picobsd build script does not read in use 5 problems total. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 15 12:47:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3B5B16A432; Mon, 15 May 2006 12:47:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.ntplx.net (mail.ntplx.net [204.213.176.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ADBF43D46; Mon, 15 May 2006 12:47:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from sea.ntplx.net (sea.ntplx.net [204.213.176.11]) by mail.ntplx.net (8.13.6/8.13.6/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id k4FClJrT007800; Mon, 15 May 2006 08:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 08:47:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen X-X-Sender: eischen@sea.ntplx.net To: gnn@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060513103640.GL69354@cicely12.cicely.de> <20060513085933.R986@odysseus.silby.com> <20060513151305.GP69354@cicely12.cicely.de> <20060513.115539.74661598.imp@bsdimp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.ntplx.net) Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Eclipse for Embedded FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Daniel Eischen List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:47:25 -0000 CC list trimmed. On Sun, 14 May 2006, gnn@freebsd.org wrote: > At Sun, 14 May 2006 14:44:32 -0400 (EDT), > Daniel Eischen wrote: > >> But the GUI-based tools to configure VxWorks, Linux, CE, or >> whatever, are attractive to the majority of developers and most >> especially look good to the people who are responsible for >> justifying and buying them. _We_ might snub our noses at such >> tools, but they look good to others. > > See, I thought you were being sarcastic, so, mea culpa. I think it's > what we'll have to do as well, but I don't think I'll be writing it. > No one wants to see my UI skills :-) I've written some Java GUIs for our simulations and controllers. The actual UI part is easy enough, it's what has to happen behind the scene that would take some thought. >> Well, see above. A GUI-based configuration tool, with tree-like >> heirarchy of dependencies and space requirements would be useful. >> Eclipse seems to be the standard for such things, but I admit I've >> never used it. >> > > I've not used it either. > >> And for industrial controls and military applications, a VME bus >> (nexus) driver supporting device drivers and mmap'able VME A32, A24, >> & A16 space would be great. > > I think we'll need someone working in those areas first, unless, well, > you're volunteering ;-) If I had no job, I would love to do that. But realJob keeps me busy enough so that I have limited time. There is someone that monitors the FreeBSD lists that would be willing to provide VME drivers for their VME-based SBCs, given enough need. That would be great, but it'd be nice to have some sort of support for it in the tree, rather than something like the NVidia driver that may or may not work. -- DE From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 15 21:06:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 861E216A471; Mon, 15 May 2006 21:06:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from mrout1.yahoo.com (mrout1.yahoo.com [216.145.54.171]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DF5643D45; Mon, 15 May 2006 21:06:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from minion.lan.neville-neil.com (proxy8.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.48.13]) by mrout1.yahoo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4/y.out) with ESMTP id k4FL5jUj055372; Mon, 15 May 2006 14:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:05:44 -0700 Message-ID: From: gnn@freebsd.org To: Daniel Eischen In-Reply-To: References: <20060513103640.GL69354@cicely12.cicely.de> <20060513085933.R986@odysseus.silby.com> <20060513151305.GP69354@cicely12.cicely.de> <20060513.115539.74661598.imp@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-apple-darwin8.5.1) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Eclipse for Embedded FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:06:33 -0000 At Mon, 15 May 2006 08:47:19 -0400 (EDT), Daniel Eischen wrote: > > I think we'll need someone working in those areas first, unless, well, > > you're volunteering ;-) > > If I had no job, I would love to do that. But realJob keeps me > busy enough so that I have limited time. I know how that is... > There is someone that monitors the FreeBSD lists that would be > willing to provide VME drivers for their VME-based SBCs, given > enough need. That would be great, but it'd be nice to have some > sort of support for it in the tree, rather than something like the > NVidia driver that may or may not work. We'd need to have boards that ran this with interested people, but there is no reason not to go this direction. It's one of those chicken and egg problems. But if they're already using FreeBSD on their stuff then looking at that code makes sense for us and them. Later, Geoge From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 15 21:45:15 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388D716B1CF for ; Mon, 15 May 2006 21:45:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D6543D5F for ; Mon, 15 May 2006 21:45:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m19so65933nfc for ; Mon, 15 May 2006 14:45:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=FES3j8Vs/r4Qm9/s598vSr252on/TEYcB4NN9xKosKJNatUcwby0Ne5h5pB8N1+u2Bc8O6ChoWTKM/RdoZUOIhedKxUa+CeP52Wnp8YoLMQuhxg+yY9GgVm7wXFgn1lNK3MjqsZsZFp4NeozFog9JjHZ8qvbkhkwMuo3klqCwN0= Received: by 10.48.223.11 with SMTP id v11mr2394550nfg; Mon, 15 May 2006 14:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.7.10 with HTTP; Mon, 15 May 2006 14:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9f7850090605151445w46233d5ak35226e3b73b046aa@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:45:11 -0700 From: "marty fouts" To: Eduardo In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20060514091549.01e2a4d8@pop3.retena.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.2.3.4.0.20060514091549.01e2a4d8@pop3.retena.com> Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 21:45:15 -0000 On 5/14/06, Eduardo wrote: > Is this really possible:? Sorry for be a bit unoptimist, but in the > embeded space the o.s.must follow some rules that freebsd (nor linux, > *bsd, windows, etc..) can't: The word "embedded" has come to include a wide range of small devices that are nearly as powerful as desktop systems were ten years ago. I've built cell phone operating systems around Linux, and currently have one of these http://www.embeddedarm.com/epc/ts7200-spec-h.html running NetBSD. It would be great to see a FreeBSD embedded system that covered arm devices= . From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 16 01:28:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE2316A999 for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 01:28:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from mrout2.yahoo.com (mrout2.yahoo.com [216.145.54.172]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD7343D7D for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 01:28:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from minion.local.neville-neil.com (proxy7.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.48.98]) by mrout2.yahoo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4/y.out) with ESMTP id k4G1RwJv085898; Mon, 15 May 2006 18:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:27:58 -0700 Message-ID: From: "George V. Neville-Neil" To: "marty fouts" In-Reply-To: <9f7850090605151445w46233d5ak35226e3b73b046aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20060514091549.01e2a4d8@pop3.retena.com> <9f7850090605151445w46233d5ak35226e3b73b046aa@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-apple-darwin8.5.1) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 01:28:52 -0000 At Mon, 15 May 2006 14:45:11 -0700, marty fouts wrote: > The word "embedded" has come to include a wide range of small devices > that are nearly as powerful as desktop systems were ten years ago. > I've built cell phone operating systems around Linux, and currently > have one of these http://www.embeddedarm.com/epc/ts7200-spec-h.html > running NetBSD. > The above board is one of our prospective targets. > It would be great to see a FreeBSD embedded system that covered arm devices. Quite :-) Later, George From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 16 01:31:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 994D016AA59 for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 01:31:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from mrout1-b.corp.dcn.yahoo.com (mrout1-b.corp.dcn.yahoo.com [216.109.112.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E2243D45 for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 01:31:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from minion.local.neville-neil.com (proxy7.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.48.98]) by mrout1-b.corp.dcn.yahoo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4/y.out) with ESMTP id k4G1UoOD016447; Mon, 15 May 2006 18:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:30:50 -0700 Message-ID: From: "George V. Neville-Neil" To: "Murray Taylor" In-Reply-To: <04E232FDCD9FBE43857F7066CAD3C0F117CA31@svmailmel.bytecraft.internal> References: <04E232FDCD9FBE43857F7066CAD3C0F117CA31@svmailmel.bytecraft.internal> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-apple-darwin8.5.1) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: minibsd@ultradesic.com, freebsd-small@freebsd.org, mk@neon1.net Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 01:31:22 -0000 At Mon, 15 May 2006 10:27:00 +1000, Murray Taylor wrote: > > George, Jim et al, > > Have you looked at the miniBSD build system > described below? I have not, but it adds yet another to our list :-) > I didnt do the original work, I just use it, and it is a blast. > Particularly useful is keeping a dnode mounted disk image of the CF > on the development host. Dead easy to copy new programs to the vnode > mount, unmount it, dd a new CF image, and run. Also by temporarily > mounting the miniBSD boot partition as R/W, one can do a SCP copy of > a file to the CF disk from the development host over the WAN .... > It would be nice to start consolodating some of this work, and even better if it could be generically added to the vanilla build system. Later George From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 16 01:46:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 638DA16AA59 for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 01:46:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: from pip.tenebras.com (pip.tenebras.com [216.27.179.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0006543D45 for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 01:46:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: (qmail 23557 invoked from network); 16 May 2006 01:46:05 -0000 Received: from daggoo.tenebras.com (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (192.168.188.60) by pip.tenebras.com with SMTP; 16 May 2006 01:46:05 -0000 Message-ID: <44692F23.1060800@tenebras.com> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:47:15 -0700 From: Michael Sierchio User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org References: <04E232FDCD9FBE43857F7066CAD3C0F117CA31@svmailmel.bytecraft.internal> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: mk@neon1.net Subject: Embedded BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 01:46:10 -0000 We owe a lot to Manuel Kasper's miniBSD. I think the work done in making m0n0wall may be just as important. XML-based configuration is a powerful tool, and we can distribute updates as signed XML objects at a fairly high level of granularity. The process of creating distributions for embedded use is more painful than it needs to be, and is exacerbated by the notion of what constitutes a "base" install in FreeBSD. Of course a desktop system needs some version of MTA, etc. but I've long argued that much of what is included in the base install belongs in packages (which most installs will include, of course). While picoBSD had a purpose, I think its time has passed. A 128MB CF card and hardware to use it as a drive are more ubiquitous and cheaper than a floppy (the last several computers I've bought haven't even had fd devices). I can't see the point in continued effort in that vein any more than in using clay tablets and cuneiform implements for documentation. ;-) Just some random thoughts at the end of a very long Monday. Cheers, Michael From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 16 03:52:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72FB216A42C for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 03:52:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brucem@mail.cruzio.com) Received: from cruzio.com (dsl-63-249-85-132.cruzio.com [63.249.85.132]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C2B743D45 for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 03:52:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brucem@mail.cruzio.com) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cruzio.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k4G3tpXB000381 for ; Mon, 15 May 2006 20:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brucem@mail.cruzio.com) Received: (from brucem@localhost) by mail.cruzio.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id k4G3tp5f000380 for freebsd-small@freebsd.org; Mon, 15 May 2006 20:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brucem) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:55:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Bruce R. Montague" Message-Id: <200605160355.k4G3tp5f000380@mail.cruzio.com> To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 03:52:47 -0000 Hi... re small/embedded/pre-built FreeBSD, the recent Intel VT and AMD Pacifica technology might resurect interest in "smallish"/self-contained FreeBSD systems (such as all those targeted at the embedded space, including picobsd). The VT hardware effectively makes it possible to implement virtual machines with overheads down below 5% or so (that is, VT is hardware virtual machine assist; essentially it adds the stuff IBM knew/learned about making mainframe virtual machine systems back in the late 60's to the modern x86 architecture). With such VM support, it's often convenient to have small systems... Although it's slightly orthogonal to classic embedded systems, one motivating concept pushing the adaption of VT is that virtual machines will become the basic components of distributed systems and software distribution. Instead of buying/downloading and installing an application, a VM containing an entire "software stack" will be obtained, ready to run. All needed libraries, suite of applications, kernel configs, etc., are set up ready to go. Of course you need virtual LANs on your host to link up all your VMs. Once you really have VMs working, its fairly easy to checkpoint/restore complete running systems (over any span of time) and then to migrate VMs between physical hosts. In this model one can think of a "mobile application" as being an application "wrapped" with a cut-down version of it's most natural OS, perhaps in "already running" state. To make virtual machine migration work, it's best to have the entire VM image small. Thus having small versions of FreeBSD that can be used to populate (hopefully lightweight) VMs that host (perhaps only) a single application might be useful. See Stanford's work on "virtual appliances" (VmWare calls this concept "network appliances".) "Appliance" is perhaps not the best name. A lot of the excitement about Xen results because it can do live migration between nodes of a subnet of a VM running Linx and an Apache server, with something like only 200 milliseconds of unavailability perceived wrt the server. (This was with para-virtualized OSes (that is, guts rewritten), but the VT hardware should enable this to be done with unmodified guest OSes.) Live migration works by having one hypervisor talk to another and moving dirtied pages from one to another faster than they dirty on the source, so the VM ends up moving over the network while its applications remain running. = bruce From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 16 08:00:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D113216A40D for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 08:00:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (gate.funkthat.com [69.17.45.168]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E64A43D45 for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 08:00:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (9g446na2g2p83afd@localhost.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1]) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k4G804x1083200; Tue, 16 May 2006 01:00:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) id k4G803gd083193; Tue, 16 May 2006 01:00:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 01:00:03 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: marty fouts Message-ID: <20060516080003.GE65555@funkthat.com> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20060514091549.01e2a4d8@pop3.retena.com> <9f7850090605151445w46233d5ak35226e3b73b046aa@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9f7850090605151445w46233d5ak35226e3b73b046aa@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.4-RELEASE-p6 i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:00:06 -0000 marty fouts wrote this message on Mon, May 15, 2006 at 14:45 -0700: > On 5/14/06, Eduardo wrote: > > >Is this really possible:? Sorry for be a bit unoptimist, but in the > >embeded space the o.s.must follow some rules that freebsd (nor linux, > >*bsd, windows, etc..) can't: > > The word "embedded" has come to include a wide range of small devices > that are nearly as powerful as desktop systems were ten years ago. > I've built cell phone operating systems around Linux, and currently > have one of these http://www.embeddedarm.com/epc/ts7200-spec-h.html > running NetBSD. Ahhh, do you know of an ethernet issue with this board? On certain small packets I get: epe0: ed_stat: 0x92000009 mbuf: 0xcb433300 len: 80, next: 0, 2, 00-00-5a-99-78-c4-00-d0-69-40-04-fa-08-00-45-00-00-42-15-24-00-00-40-11-e4-00-c0-a8-00-35-c0-a8-00-01-f7-e9-00-35-00-2e-52-80-88-bc-01-00-00-01-00-00-00-00-00-00-07-64-79-6e-61-6d-31-34-08-66-75-6e-6b-74-68-61-74-03-63-6f-6d-00-00-1c-00-01 epe0: ed_stat: 0x92000009 mbuf: 0xcb432700 len: 80, next: 0, 2, 00-a0-c9-31-30-5e-00-d0-69-40-04-fa-08-00-45-00-00-42-15-2f-00-00-40-11-e3-e8-c0-a8-00-35-c0-a8-00-0e-d0-1b-00-35-00-2e-7a-41-88-bc-01-00-00-01-00-00-00-00-00-00-07-64-79-6e-61-6d-31-34-08-66-75-6e-6b-74-68-61-74-03-63-6f-6d-00-00-1c-00-01 The first line is the TX status register indicating a carrier loss and a underrun... The second is the data packet.. it's a reverse dns query iirc... I'm at 100mbit and full duplex, so a collision shouldn't of happened... The wierd part is that this is durning boot up while running w/ a nfs mounted root.. I can also read/write about 2meg/sec over nfs w/o any issue, but do a simple 80 byte dns query, or try to send an icmp packet, and I get the above... -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 16 10:11:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1992816A400 for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 10:11:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ast@oneplusone.ch) Received: from oneplusone.ch (oneplusone.ch [212.55.208.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B59B843D48 for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 10:11:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ast@oneplusone.ch) Received: from oneplusone.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by oneplusone.ch (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4GAB8JY083609 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 12:11:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ast@oneplusone.ch) Received: (from ast@localhost) by oneplusone.ch (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k4GAB8bv083608 for freebsd-small@freebsd.org; Tue, 16 May 2006 12:11:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ast) Resent-From: ast@webgroup.ch Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:11:08 +0200 Resent-Message-ID: <20060516101108.GB1439@webgroup.ch> Resent-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:10:21 +0200 From: Adrian Steinmann To: gnn@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20060516101021.GA1439@webgroup.ch> References: <88FAB6C7-632B-46B5-8CA5-D1E08DA79DD1@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <88FAB6C7-632B-46B5-8CA5-D1E08DA79DD1@freebsd.org> X-Organization: Webgroup Consulting AG X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (oneplusone.ch [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 16 May 2006 12:11:08 +0200 (CEST) X-Mailfilter: egfilter version 1.14; Archiver [msg.b5H2CP8S] (oneplusone.ch [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 16 May 2006 12:11:08 +0200 (CEST) X-AntiVirus: checked by AntiVir Milter (version: 1.1.2-1; AVE: 6.34.1.29; VDF: 6.34.1.89; host: oneplusone.ch) Cc: Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:11:12 -0000 I've been advocating small distributions and RAMdisk approaches to "embedded FreeBSD" in my talks and tutorials at EuroBSDCon 2005 (Basel, Switzerland) and LinuxTag 2006 (Wiesbaden, Germany): http://www.webgroup.ch/eurobsdcon2005/ http://www.webgroup.ch/linuxtag2006/ I intend to submit - either as a part of nanobsd or as a port - some generic tools to create these RAMdisks which include SSHD. I also have tools to create self-sufficient distributions including select ports. I am trying to make those scripts more flexible and generic, for now they are still very specific to my STYX project. Adrian From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 16 16:18:22 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EEF616A622; Tue, 16 May 2006 16:18:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (gate.funkthat.com [69.17.45.168]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11CF843D77; Tue, 16 May 2006 16:18:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (2p29bp9d6t2vynjh@localhost.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1]) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k4GGIGic096224; Tue, 16 May 2006 09:18:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) id k4GGIGQd096223; Tue, 16 May 2006 09:18:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:18:16 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: gnn@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20060516161815.GG65555@funkthat.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.4-RELEASE-p6 i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 16:18:22 -0000 George V. Neville-Neil wrote this message on Thu, May 11, 2006 at 23:23 -0400: > The slides are at: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~gnn/EFreeBSD.pdf > > Comments welcome. This have been relocated to: http://people.freebsd.org/~gnn/BSDCan2006/EFreeBSD.pdf -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 16 16:29:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 477B216A409 for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 16:29:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from root@parse.com) Received: from amd64.ott.parse.com (ottawa-hs-206-191-28-202.s-ip.magma.ca [206.191.28.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A752343D6B for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 16:28:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from root@parse.com) Received: from amd64.ott.parse.com (localhost.parse.com [127.0.0.1]) by amd64.ott.parse.com (8.13.4/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k4GGTPhx065520 for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 12:29:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from root@parse.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by amd64.ott.parse.com (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id k4GGTPfN065519 for freebsd-small@freebsd.org; Tue, 16 May 2006 12:29:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from root) From: Robert Krten Message-Id: <200605161629.k4GGTPfN065519@amd64.ott.parse.com> To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:29:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Smallest/fastest x86 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 16:29:07 -0000 Can anyone give me a ballpark idea on what size the smallest image would be, and how fast it could boot, for a 6.0 (or 6.1) bare bones x86 kernel with a serial driver, filesystem (suitable for a 32MB flash device; even a DOS filesystem is fine) and enough guts to load a "hello world"-sized C program, on a 500 MHz PIII class of machine? I'm hoping for something along the lines of 2-4MB and <10s ... I know it's kind of a vague question, but I'm trying to get a handle on just how "embeddable" FreeBSD is. PHK gave a talk at BSDCan 2006 last weekend, and I believe the number he guessed at was around 9MB but that was using nanoBSD; he then went on to say that picoBSD would be the way to go, but that perhaps there needed to be some more development on that front... Comments? Thanks in advance, -RK -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices Realtime Systems Architecture, Consulting, Books and Training at www.parse.com Looking for Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-1 through PDP-15 minicomputers! From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 16 17:36:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A991F16ACB9 for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 17:36:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lab@gta.com) Received: from gta.com (gta-edge-199-20.gta.com [199.120.225.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 13C1A43D5F for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 17:36:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lab@gta.com) Received: (qmail 59277 invoked by uid 1000); 16 May 2006 17:36:10 -0000 Date: 16 May 2006 17:36:10 -0000 Message-ID: <20060516173610.59276.qmail@gta.com> From: Larry Baird To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200605161629.k4GGTPfN065519@amd64.ott.parse.com> X-Newsgroups: freebsd.small User-Agent: tin/1.5.9-20010723 ("Chord of Souls") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.10-RELEASE (i386)) Cc: Robert Krten Subject: Re: Smallest/fastest x86 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 17:36:13 -0000 In article <200605161629.k4GGTPfN065519@amd64.ott.parse.com> you wrote: > Can anyone give me a ballpark idea on what size the smallest > image would be, and how fast it could boot, for a 6.0 (or 6.1) > bare bones x86 kernel with a serial driver, filesystem (suitable > for a 32MB flash device; even a DOS filesystem is fine) and > enough guts to load a "hello world"-sized C program, on a 500 > MHz PIII class of machine? I'm hoping for something along the > lines of 2-4MB and <10s ... > > I know it's kind of a vague question, but I'm trying to > get a handle on just how "embeddable" FreeBSD is. PHK gave > a talk at BSDCan 2006 last weekend, and I believe the number > he guessed at was around 9MB but that was using nanoBSD; he > then went on to say that picoBSD would be the way to go, but > that perhaps there needed to be some more development on that > front... > > Comments? I have created very small embedded FreeBSD using as small as 1.6MB. For this I replaced init with my own init and basically kernel, new init and a few services. I agree with PKH that picoBSD is a good place to start. As far as time to boot, the limiting factor is often the BIOS. Just checked on an embedded development box I have and saw a boot time of ten seconds after BIOS finished. This box is really just a standard PC with a standard BIOS. The BIOS takes about 15 seconds to complete. On "real embedded" hardware I am seeing a BIOS time of about 4 seconds. Hope this helps. Larry -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Larry Baird | http://www.gta.com Global Technology Associates, Inc. | Orlando, FL Email: lab@gta.com | TEL 407-380-0220, FAX 407-380-6080 From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 17 16:21:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D841116AF9C for ; Wed, 17 May 2006 16:21:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from mrout2-b.corp.dcn.yahoo.com (mrout2-b.corp.dcn.yahoo.com [216.109.112.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292D443D6D for ; Wed, 17 May 2006 16:21:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from minion.local.neville-neil.com (proxy8.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.48.13]) by mrout2-b.corp.dcn.yahoo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4/y.out) with ESMTP id k4HGKqLO045060 for ; Wed, 17 May 2006 09:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:27:21 -0700 Message-ID: From: gnn@freebsd.org To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-apple-darwin8.5.1) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Flash File Systems or Translation Layers? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:21:05 -0000 Howdy, So, a few of us have talked off list of the need for a flash file system or translation layer for FreeBSD in order to better target the kind of boards we want to support. The one lead I had was to a poorly written, binary only solution with nasty licensing. That is, it was a dead end. Does anyone know of anything that exists now that we might coopt or have the knowledge to do this right/well? Later, George From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 17 18:47:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8890216B97D for ; Wed, 17 May 2006 18:47:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nec556@retena.com) Received: from smtp05.retemail.es (smtp05.auna.com [62.81.186.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B164843D5F for ; Wed, 17 May 2006 18:47:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nec556@retena.com) Received: from dander.retena.com ([212.21.232.99]) by smtp05.retemail.es (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with ESMTP id <20060517184710.XQFX1144.smtp05.retemail.es@dander.retena.com> for ; Wed, 17 May 2006 20:47:10 +0200 Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20060517202814.0315b950@pop3.retena.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 20:48:14 +0200 To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org From: Eduardo In-Reply-To: <9f7850090605151445w46233d5ak35226e3b73b046aa@mail.gmail.co m> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20060514091549.01e2a4d8@pop3.retena.com> <9f7850090605151445w46233d5ak35226e3b73b046aa@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Auth-Info: Auth:LOGIN IP:[212.21.232.99] Login:nec556@retena.com Fecha:Wed, 17 May 2006 20:47:10 +0200 Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 18:47:40 -0000 At 23:45 15/05/2006, you wrote: >On 5/14/06, Eduardo wrote: > >>Is this really possible:? Sorry for be a bit unoptimist, but in the >>embeded space the o.s.must follow some rules that freebsd (nor linux, >>*bsd, windows, etc..) can't: > >The word "embedded" has come to include a wide range of small devices >that are nearly as powerful as desktop systems were ten years ago. >I've built cell phone operating systems around Linux, and currently >have one of these http://www.embeddedarm.com/epc/ts7200-spec-h.html >running NetBSD. I agree with you, the word embedded includes too many types of devices, i was thinking in our 405 powerpc, where we run QNX RTOS(i prefer to run FreeBSD, but don't know how to do the port). As we are going to upgrade processors, an embedded freebsd will be an option for us. >It would be great to see a FreeBSD embedded system that covered arm devices. And ppc ;) Perhaps if i post this FreeBSD to embedded task at Power.org we can get some voluntarees. Any problem about that? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Antivirus Warning: User Detected. Keep Away the computer or YOU will be eliminated. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 17 22:10:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B9E116A986; Wed, 17 May 2006 22:10:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from saturnero@freesbie.org) Received: from out4.alice.it (smtp-out04.alice.it [85.37.17.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 142D843D45; Wed, 17 May 2006 22:10:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from saturnero@freesbie.org) Received: from FBCMMO01.fbc.local ([192.168.68.195]) by out4.alice.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 18 May 2006 00:08:04 +0200 Received: from client.alice.it ([192.168.68.139]) by FBCMMO01.fbc.local with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 18 May 2006 00:08:04 +0200 Received: from [192.168.99.16] ([87.5.150.129]) by client.alice.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 18 May 2006 00:08:04 +0200 Message-ID: <446B9F3D.2030003@freesbie.org> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 00:10:05 +0200 From: Dario Freni User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Macintosh/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org, small@freebsd.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saturnero.net/saturnero.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig0F498129D862362E258D8E73" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 May 2006 22:08:04.0362 (UTC) FILETIME=[5EABF6A0:01C679FE] Cc: Subject: Slides of FreeSBIE toolkit presentation. X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 22:10:15 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig0F498129D862362E258D8E73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable These are the slides of the presentation that me and Scott Ullrich held at FreeBSD Developer Summit on May 11th: http://www.freesbie.org/~saturnero/FreeSBIE-BSDCan06-devsummit.pdf If you're interested on working on the toolkit feel free to contact me. Tasks opened that I've forgot to mention are the porting to all FreeBSD supported platforms. Actually we support i386, amd64 and powerpc. I hope you'll be convinced to use FreeSBIE also for your embedded installations as well as the traditional live cd creation. We did our best to make it as flexible as we can imagine. I also hope to view it included under the official tools in the tree, assuming someone really need it! :) Bye, Dario --=20 Dario Freni (saturnero@freesbie.org) FreeSBIE developer (http://www.freesbie.org) GPG Public key at http://www.saturnero.net/saturnero.asc --------------enig0F498129D862362E258D8E73 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFEa589ymi72IiShysRAmiCAKDpZmzazTqEFGWsarOaGKS75flf+wCdFRF2 jONa6UA/lWQwbHkLJ64AqYw= =lu1m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig0F498129D862362E258D8E73-- From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 18 00:23:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A7F316B383; Thu, 18 May 2006 00:23:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from benno@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.jeamland.net (rafe.jeamland.net [202.45.126.103]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2723B43D69; Thu, 18 May 2006 00:23:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from benno@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.jeamland.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jeamland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE3C1CD16; Thu, 18 May 2006 10:23:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from [10.2.3.17] (ppp67-100.lns1.mel4.internode.on.net [59.167.67.100]) by mail.jeamland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6C21CD08; Thu, 18 May 2006 10:23:01 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <446BBE65.50104@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 10:23:01 +1000 From: Benno Rice User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Macintosh/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gnn@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP at rafe.jeamland.net Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Flash File Systems or Translation Layers? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 00:23:20 -0000 gnn@freebsd.org wrote: > Howdy, > > So, a few of us have talked off list of the need for a flash file > system or translation layer for FreeBSD in order to better target the > kind of boards we want to support. The one lead I had was to a poorly > written, binary only solution with nasty licensing. That is, it was > a dead end. Does anyone know of anything that exists now that we > might coopt or have the knowledge to do this right/well? I thought about doing a port of jffs2. Probably a rewrite actually, so we can have a non-GPL version. It's waiting on me getting to the point where I need it though. =) -- Benno Rice benno@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 18 02:25:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203EA16A739 for ; Thu, 18 May 2006 02:25:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A1143D45 for ; Thu, 18 May 2006 02:25:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x29so23412nfb for ; Wed, 17 May 2006 19:25:24 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UUsCXAlffb/rC9DeI87nmqiIaoVJvWbCB9HyuqbTaHyZ4+ZFDyeqWa1lWQfWRVX2GkfK/MClj8y0E54juz0xrHaTYX1bG/1ofzcKljuibNqDHmJ+YsZUZKJZX+RFsm1xfUbqW4MvCCJd8SPfiJBQ1KR7W3WokXQncmAg6nfW1DY= Received: by 10.48.48.19 with SMTP id v19mr1245155nfv; Wed, 17 May 2006 17:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.55.14 with HTTP; Wed, 17 May 2006 17:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9f7850090605171746p5ff4dbefq46211ce93aafc116@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 17:46:16 -0700 From: "marty fouts" To: "Benno Rice" In-Reply-To: <446BBE65.50104@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <446BBE65.50104@FreeBSD.org> Cc: gnn@freebsd.org, freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Flash File Systems or Translation Layers? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 02:25:27 -0000 On 5/17/06, Benno Rice wrote: > gnn@freebsd.org wrote: > > Howdy, > > > > So, a few of us have talked off list of the need for a flash file > > system or translation layer for FreeBSD in order to better target the > > kind of boards we want to support. The one lead I had was to a poorly > > written, binary only solution with nasty licensing. That is, it was > > a dead end. Does anyone know of anything that exists now that we > > might coopt or have the knowledge to do this right/well? > > I thought about doing a port of jffs2. Probably a rewrite actually, so > we can have a non-GPL version. It's waiting on me getting to the point > where I need it though. =3D) > You probably don't want jffs2, because it has, um, interesting, performance characteristics. I also vaguely recall reading that the authors had stopped development on jffs3. Also, jffs requires MTD, and it's debatable whether a rewrite of MTD would be a good thing or not. See discussions on the yaffs mailing list and, IIRC, one of the NetBSD mailing lists on this recently. It's not clear to me that "flash" is a good dividing point for making a file system. It seems a lot more likely that NOR and NAND flash are enough different that they would require their own file systems, or, at the least, their own address translation layers. Marty From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 18 07:08:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A3F616A405; Thu, 18 May 2006 07:08:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from mrout3.yahoo.com (mrout3.yahoo.com [216.145.54.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D62D43D49; Thu, 18 May 2006 07:08:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from minion.local.neville-neil.com (proxy8.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.48.13]) by mrout3.yahoo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4/y.out) with ESMTP id k4I78HQj008868; Thu, 18 May 2006 00:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 18:44:24 -0700 Message-ID: From: gnn@FreeBSD.org To: Benno Rice In-Reply-To: <446BBE65.50104@FreeBSD.org> References: <446BBE65.50104@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-apple-darwin8.5.1) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Flash File Systems or Translation Layers? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:08:40 -0000 At Thu, 18 May 2006 10:23:01 +1000, Benno Rice wrote: > > gnn@freebsd.org wrote: > > Howdy, > > > > So, a few of us have talked off list of the need for a flash file > > system or translation layer for FreeBSD in order to better target the > > kind of boards we want to support. The one lead I had was to a poorly > > written, binary only solution with nasty licensing. That is, it was > > a dead end. Does anyone know of anything that exists now that we > > might coopt or have the knowledge to do this right/well? > > I thought about doing a port of jffs2. Probably a rewrite actually, so > we can have a non-GPL version. It's waiting on me getting to the point > where I need it though. =) Yes, one of my friends who is not on this list pointed me to jffs2, but we would definitely need a non-GPL rewrite I suspect. Later, George From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 18 07:08:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4A616A409 for ; Thu, 18 May 2006 07:08:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from mrout2.yahoo.com (mrout2.yahoo.com [216.145.54.172]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8712C43D45 for ; Thu, 18 May 2006 07:08:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from minion.local.neville-neil.com (proxy8.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.48.13]) by mrout2.yahoo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4/y.out) with ESMTP id k4I78HNc099447; Thu, 18 May 2006 00:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 18:42:44 -0700 Message-ID: From: gnn@FreeBSD.org To: Eduardo In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20060517202814.0315b950@pop3.retena.com> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20060514091549.01e2a4d8@pop3.retena.com> <9f7850090605151445w46233d5ak35226e3b73b046aa@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-apple-darwin8.5.1) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:08:59 -0000 At Wed, 17 May 2006 20:48:14 +0200, Eduardo wrote: > Perhaps if i post this FreeBSD to embedded task at Power.org we can > get some voluntarees. Any problem about that? Volunteers are a great thing. Please talk to them, but don't cross post :-) You can point them at this list though. Later, George From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 18 07:34:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C9F16A431; Thu, 18 May 2006 07:34:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from benno@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.jeamland.net (rafe.jeamland.net [202.45.126.103]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31D4443D93; Thu, 18 May 2006 07:34:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from benno@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.jeamland.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jeamland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C9721CD30; Thu, 18 May 2006 17:34:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from [10.2.3.17] (ppp67-100.lns1.mel4.internode.on.net [59.167.67.100]) by mail.jeamland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9A31CD08; Thu, 18 May 2006 17:34:25 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <446C2380.6020000@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 17:34:24 +1000 From: Benno Rice User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Macintosh/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: marty fouts References: <446BBE65.50104@FreeBSD.org> <9f7850090605171746p5ff4dbefq46211ce93aafc116@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9f7850090605171746p5ff4dbefq46211ce93aafc116@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP at rafe.jeamland.net Cc: gnn@freebsd.org, freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Flash File Systems or Translation Layers? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:34:46 -0000 marty fouts wrote: > On 5/17/06, Benno Rice wrote: >> gnn@freebsd.org wrote: >> > Howdy, >> > >> > So, a few of us have talked off list of the need for a flash file >> > system or translation layer for FreeBSD in order to better target the >> > kind of boards we want to support. The one lead I had was to a poorly >> > written, binary only solution with nasty licensing. That is, it was >> > a dead end. Does anyone know of anything that exists now that we >> > might coopt or have the knowledge to do this right/well? >> >> I thought about doing a port of jffs2. Probably a rewrite actually, so >> we can have a non-GPL version. It's waiting on me getting to the point >> where I need it though. =) >> > > You probably don't want jffs2, because it has, um, interesting, > performance characteristics. I also vaguely recall reading that the > authors had stopped development on jffs3. It depends on what we're doing with it. If all we're doing is booting off it and then switching to something else, it's not really an issue IMO so long as it can keep up with the boot process. It's also supported by things like U-Boot which is helpful. > Also, jffs requires MTD, and it's debatable whether a rewrite of MTD > would be a good thing or not. See discussions on the yaffs mailing > list and, IIRC, one of the NetBSD mailing lists on this recently. > > It's not clear to me that "flash" is a good dividing point for making > a file system. It seems a lot more likely that NOR and NAND flash are > enough different that they would require their own file systems, or, > at the least, their own address translation layers. That may be the case, but I'm not so much interested in the "perfect" solution, I'm just after one that works and that requires the least amount of dinking with the bootloader that ships with the hardware I'm working on. In my current case (Gumstix Connex 400xm-bt, Intel XScale PXA255) the board has U-Boot and the shipped Linux image uses jffs2. I think the U-Boot on the board supports FAT and jffs2, so one of those is my preference. -- Benno Rice benno@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 18 09:16:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43DDF16A403; Thu, 18 May 2006 09:16:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from netgate.com (mail.netgate.com [64.62.194.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008F643D49; Thu, 18 May 2006 09:16:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from [192.168.2.192] (rrcs-67-52-77-54.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.77.54]) by netgate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C2F280056; Thu, 18 May 2006 02:16:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <446C2380.6020000@FreeBSD.org> References: <446BBE65.50104@FreeBSD.org> <9f7850090605171746p5ff4dbefq46211ce93aafc116@mail.gmail.com> <446C2380.6020000@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Thompson Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 23:16:22 -1000 To: Benno Rice X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Cc: gnn@freebsd.org, freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Flash File Systems or Translation Layers? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:16:33 -0000 On May 17, 2006, at 9:34 PM, Benno Rice wrote: > marty fouts wrote: >> On 5/17/06, Benno Rice wrote: >>> gnn@freebsd.org wrote: >>> > Howdy, >>> > >>> > So, a few of us have talked off list of the need for a flash file >>> > system or translation layer for FreeBSD in order to better >>> target the >>> > kind of boards we want to support. The one lead I had was to a >>> poorly >>> > written, binary only solution with nasty licensing. That is, >>> it was >>> > a dead end. Does anyone know of anything that exists now that we >>> > might coopt or have the knowledge to do this right/well? >>> >>> I thought about doing a port of jffs2. Probably a rewrite >>> actually, so >>> we can have a non-GPL version. It's waiting on me getting to the >>> point >>> where I need it though. =) >>> >> You probably don't want jffs2, because it has, um, interesting, >> performance characteristics. I also vaguely recall reading that the >> authors had stopped development on jffs3. > > It depends on what we're doing with it. If all we're doing is > booting off it and then switching to something else, What are you going to switch to? There is only so much space available on most embedded systems. > it's not really an issue IMO so long as it can keep up with the > boot process. "keep up?" Could you explain what you mean by this? > It's also supported by things like U-Boot which is helpful. > >> Also, jffs requires MTD, and it's debatable whether a rewrite of MTD >> would be a good thing or not. See discussions on the yaffs mailing >> list and, IIRC, one of the NetBSD mailing lists on this recently. >> It's not clear to me that "flash" is a good dividing point for making >> a file system. It seems a lot more likely that NOR and NAND flash are >> enough different that they would require their own file systems, or, >> at the least, their own address translation layers. > > That may be the case, but I'm not so much interested in the > "perfect" solution, I'm just after one that works and that requires > the least amount of dinking with the bootloader that ships with the > hardware I'm working on. In my current case (Gumstix Connex 400xm- > bt, Intel XScale PXA255) the board has U-Boot and the shipped Linux > image uses jffs2. I think the U-Boot on the board supports FAT and > jffs2, so one of those is my preference. JFFS2 doesn't >require< mtd, mtd is mostly just a way to identify and 'partition' flash. There is at least one 'other' important bootloader for this work: 'redboot'. (But redboot supports (or can be made to support) jffs2. Still having a bootloader that knows how to 'read' the filesystem isn't that important, as long as you can store the kernel somewhere other than >in< the filesystem. No "dinking" needed. (are you aware that 'dink' is also a bootloader (for ppc)?) So lets not go all cart-before-horse on this one. We >do< want a FTL or FFS, it doesn't >have< to be JFFS2, but JFFS2 has many nice features (on the fly compression, wear-leveling, etc.) so its worth studying, at least. Its unlikely that the FreeBSD kernel maintainers will accept GPL code in freebsd though, so a re-write (or fresh code under a BSD license) would be a "good thing". From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 18 17:06:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC2DF16A649 for ; Thu, 18 May 2006 17:06:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.191]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B25043D6A for ; Thu, 18 May 2006 17:06:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x29so74997nfb for ; Thu, 18 May 2006 10:06:10 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BrUV1hzCai3r6Kd9QoWPBM18zyw+qlhJZArnOFyTa7VxNvD70JkY47QwpyNCeR1FdoZnT7Cc9pbJxnxyDQEfjEZpwvq6fFnYbezMCWvzInxPhFszIpljTo+nb8rALWNkc893A0cHdfqRcqoMZtwcloijViEnJpx2iy4YCFuRnxQ= Received: by 10.48.205.7 with SMTP id c7mr734239nfg; Thu, 18 May 2006 10:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.55.14 with HTTP; Thu, 18 May 2006 10:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9f7850090605181006m56c38a56lcc7037beaf6b6fa@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 10:06:09 -0700 From: "marty fouts" To: "Jim Thompson" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <446BBE65.50104@FreeBSD.org> <9f7850090605171746p5ff4dbefq46211ce93aafc116@mail.gmail.com> <446C2380.6020000@FreeBSD.org> Cc: gnn@freebsd.org, freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Flash File Systems or Translation Layers? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 17:06:20 -0000 On 5/18/06, Jim Thompson wrote: > > There is at least one 'other' important bootloader for this work: > 'redboot'. (But redboot supports (or can be made to support) jffs2. > The ARM board I'm currently using has redboot on it, so I've done some investigation. It looks like ecos/redboot are pretty much dead. > Still having a bootloader that knows how to 'read' the filesystem > isn't that important, as long as you can store the kernel somewhere > other than >in< the filesystem. No "dinking" needed. (are you > aware that 'dink' is also a bootloader (for ppc)?) Agreed. This seems to be a common approach in shipping devices, and it has advantages that make it appealing. > We >do< want a FTL or FFS, it doesn't >have< to be JFFS2, but JFFS2 > has many nice features (on the fly compression, wear-leveling, etc.) > so its worth studying, at least. JFFS2 has a built in design flaw. The 'node' model that it uses requires that the entire file system be read during boot. On large NAND devices with nearly full file systems, this can lead to long delays before the file system is in a state where it can be written to. (I've seen delays of over 20 minutes on actual devices.) This is why the authors were off designing JFFS3. Definitely investigate JFFS2, especially reading the archives of the MTD mailing list, but I'd strongly advise against modeling a system on its data structures. At PalmSource last year, Mike Chen and myself did an implementation of LFS that was NAND-aware for PalmOS Cobalt (the one that never shipped) that seemed to have reasonable performance. For NAND there's also YAFFS2, which is GPLed, and so would need to be studied rather than used. (The YAFFS mailing list has a few discussions on the limitations of the MTD layer wrt to file systems, also.) I'm aware of several commercial flash file systems for NAND and they've all taken the approach of having a block-translation layer that handles all of the wear-leveling and block remapping issues. Having worked on NAND file systems tof both kinds, I'd particularly recommned the separation model. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 18 17:50:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB9B16A5B1; Thu, 18 May 2006 17:50:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from netgate.com (mail.netgate.com [64.62.194.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8462543D46; Thu, 18 May 2006 17:50:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from [192.168.2.192] (rrcs-67-52-77-54.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.77.54]) by netgate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA482280031; Thu, 18 May 2006 10:50:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9f7850090605181006m56c38a56lcc7037beaf6b6fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <446BBE65.50104@FreeBSD.org> <9f7850090605171746p5ff4dbefq46211ce93aafc116@mail.gmail.com> <446C2380.6020000@FreeBSD.org> <9f7850090605181006m56c38a56lcc7037beaf6b6fa@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2159F853-C89E-4032-9931-56F4B7D214C0@netgate.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Thompson Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:50:56 -1000 To: "marty fouts" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Cc: gnn@freebsd.org, freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Flash File Systems or Translation Layers? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 17:50:59 -0000 On May 18, 2006, at 7:06 AM, marty fouts wrote: > On 5/18/06, Jim Thompson wrote: >> >> There is at least one 'other' important bootloader for this work: >> 'redboot'. (But redboot supports (or can be made to support) jffs2. >> > > The ARM board I'm currently using has redboot on it, so I've done some > investigation. It looks like ecos/redboot are pretty much dead. I have no idea how you got that impression, but ecos/redboot are at least as "alive" as linux is, and more popular than u-boot. (I had my mitts on u-boot back when it was "ppcboot".) >> Still having a bootloader that knows how to 'read' the filesystem >> isn't that important, as long as you can store the kernel somewhere >> other than >in< the filesystem. No "dinking" needed. (are you >> aware that 'dink' is also a bootloader (for ppc)?) > > Agreed. This seems to be a common approach in shipping devices, and it > has advantages that make it appealing. What is "this"? > >> We >do< want a FTL or FFS, it doesn't >have< to be JFFS2, but JFFS2 >> has many nice features (on the fly compression, wear-leveling, etc.) >> so its worth studying, at least. > > JFFS2 has a built in design flaw. The 'node' model that it uses > requires that the entire file system be read during boot. On large > NAND devices with nearly full file systems, this can lead to long > delays before the file system is in a state where it can be written > to. (I've seen delays of over 20 minutes on actual devices.) > > This is why the authors were off designing JFFS3. Definitely > investigate JFFS2, especially reading the archives of the MTD mailing > list, but I'd strongly advise against modeling a system on its data > structures. In practice this is only a problem for systems with a >lot< of flash. Most of the boards that are interesting have 4-16MB of flash. > > At PalmSource last year, Mike Chen and myself did an implementation of > LFS that was NAND-aware for PalmOS Cobalt (the one that never shipped) > that seemed to have reasonable performance. > > For NAND there's also YAFFS2, which is GPLed, and so would need to be > studied rather than used. (The YAFFS mailing list has a few > discussions on the limitations of the MTD layer wrt to file systems, > also.) > > I'm aware of several commercial flash file systems for NAND and > they've all taken the approach of having a block-translation layer > that handles all of the wear-leveling and block remapping issues. > Having worked on NAND file systems tof both kinds, I'd particularly > recommned the separation model. I don't think we can restrict ourselves to supporting only NAND flash. In particular, Intel's "Strataflash" (and the Micron (etc) equivalents are all NOR-based. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 18 18:18:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 289BE16A459 for ; Thu, 18 May 2006 18:18:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABF043D60 for ; Thu, 18 May 2006 18:18:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x29so86921nfb for ; Thu, 18 May 2006 11:18:40 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=a04JiwgVbhHwYyx3JG+Ag4ex8BeKiNum0zvrlZyqNy9xx9O34YtozKaYxAc0QZlH0lLkVhbjb6Mae87uNMRlW5jumvfxAWQ6B7Nan6ZrsgUwurvYGTBUUZNgGK8fpQpWe7tQL+J8R3eed8qB8XOqUJt3JHCp26cNZrD/084FvR4= Received: by 10.48.216.13 with SMTP id o13mr781754nfg; Thu, 18 May 2006 11:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.55.14 with HTTP; Thu, 18 May 2006 11:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9f7850090605181118o30b71b94mca294b2195e9ae1e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:18:38 -0700 From: "marty fouts" To: "Jim Thompson" In-Reply-To: <2159F853-C89E-4032-9931-56F4B7D214C0@netgate.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <446BBE65.50104@FreeBSD.org> <9f7850090605171746p5ff4dbefq46211ce93aafc116@mail.gmail.com> <446C2380.6020000@FreeBSD.org> <9f7850090605181006m56c38a56lcc7037beaf6b6fa@mail.gmail.com> <2159F853-C89E-4032-9931-56F4B7D214C0@netgate.com> Cc: gnn@freebsd.org, freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Flash File Systems or Translation Layers? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 18:18:44 -0000 On 5/18/06, Jim Thompson wrote: > > On May 18, 2006, at 7:06 AM, marty fouts wrote: > > > On 5/18/06, Jim Thompson wrote: > >> > I have no idea how you got that impression, but ecos/redboot are at > least as "alive" as linux is, and more > popular than u-boot. (I had my mitts on u-boot back when it was > "ppcboot".) I was misinformed. Thanks for the correction. > >> Still having a bootloader that knows how to 'read' the filesystem > >> isn't that important, as long as you can store the kernel somewhere > >> other than >in< the filesystem. No "dinking" needed. (are you > >> aware that 'dink' is also a bootloader (for ppc)?) > > > > Agreed. This seems to be a common approach in shipping devices, and it > > has advantages that make it appealing. > > What is "this"? Sorry for the lack of clarity. Having the kernel somewhere other than in the filesystem is "this"; a common approach in shipping devices. > > This is why the authors were off designing JFFS3. Definitely > > investigate JFFS2, especially reading the archives of the MTD mailing > > list, but I'd strongly advise against modeling a system on its data > > structures. > In practice this is only a problem for systems with a >lot< of > flash. Most of the boards that are > interesting have 4-16MB of flash. None of the boards that are interesting to me have less than 64mb of flash ;) and I've seen JFFS2 performance problems on 16mb flash partitions. I'm coming at this from a telephony point of view, where none of the currently shipping devices are limited to 16MB of flash. 32mb is typical, 64mb is common, and 128mb development boards are in common use. (The TS7250 board that I mentioned earlier is available with 128mb NAND.) > I don't think we can restrict ourselves to supporting only NAND > flash. In particular, Intel's "Strataflash" (and the Micron (etc) > equivalents are all NOR-based. Agreed. But I think that NAND and NOR are enough different that they need to be supported differently. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 18 18:28:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC1C16A4C2; Thu, 18 May 2006 18:28:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from netgate.com (mail.netgate.com [64.62.194.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24EA243D45; Thu, 18 May 2006 18:28:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from [192.168.2.192] (rrcs-67-52-77-54.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.77.54]) by netgate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84CCC280031; Thu, 18 May 2006 11:28:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9f7850090605181118o30b71b94mca294b2195e9ae1e@mail.gmail.com> References: <446BBE65.50104@FreeBSD.org> <9f7850090605171746p5ff4dbefq46211ce93aafc116@mail.gmail.com> <446C2380.6020000@FreeBSD.org> <9f7850090605181006m56c38a56lcc7037beaf6b6fa@mail.gmail.com> <2159F853-C89E-4032-9931-56F4B7D214C0@netgate.com> <9f7850090605181118o30b71b94mca294b2195e9ae1e@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Thompson Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 08:28:20 -1000 To: "marty fouts" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Cc: gnn@freebsd.org, freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Flash File Systems or Translation Layers? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 18:28:23 -0000 On May 18, 2006, at 8:18 AM, marty fouts wrote: > On 5/18/06, Jim Thompson wrote: >> >> On May 18, 2006, at 7:06 AM, marty fouts wrote: >> >> > On 5/18/06, Jim Thompson wrote: >> > >> > Agreed. This seems to be a common approach in shipping devices, >> and it >> > has advantages that make it appealing. >> >> What is "this"? > > Sorry for the lack of clarity. Having the kernel somewhere other than > in the filesystem is "this"; a common approach in shipping devices. The driver for 'this' ;-) is that most bootloaders can't read the (root) filesystem. By putting the kernel out in the flash somewhere, its easy for the loader to read the kernel into memory, do a bit of setup, then 'jump' to the kernel. The kernel can load the root filesystem (or the boot loader can read it into memory somewhere, if necessary.) >> > This is why the authors were off designing JFFS3. Definitely >> > investigate JFFS2, especially reading the archives of the MTD >> mailing >> > list, but I'd strongly advise against modeling a system on its data >> > structures. >> In practice this is only a problem for systems with a >lot< of >> flash. Most of the boards that are >> interesting have 4-16MB of flash. > > None of the boards that are interesting to me have less than 64mb of > flash ;) and I've seen JFFS2 performance problems on 16mb flash > partitions. Your >= 64MB requirement also tends to 'signal' why you prefer NAND flash, as its much less expensive than NOR flash in similar densities. Still, this "64MB" requirement makes for an expensive board. Yes, its true that JFFS2 has "issues" as the flash size grows, but its "fine" for the smaller, more common boards. > I'm coming at this from a telephony point of view, where > none of the currently shipping devices are limited to 16MB of flash. > 32mb is typical, 64mb is common, and 128mb development boards are in > common use. (The TS7250 board that I mentioned earlier is available > with 128mb NAND.) > >> I don't think we can restrict ourselves to supporting only NAND >> flash. In particular, Intel's "Strataflash" (and the Micron (etc) >> equivalents are all NOR-based. > > Agreed. But I think that NAND and NOR are enough different that they > need to be supported differently. Perhaps, thought I will allow that JFFS2 can deal with both, and a good FTL would be able to 'hide' most of the details. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 19 19:17:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025C516A47B for ; Fri, 19 May 2006 19:17:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECEC943D5D for ; Fri, 19 May 2006 19:17:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x29so259790nfb for ; Fri, 19 May 2006 12:17:28 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=n3qEq6tUd4eHe8wGfZaru9ywz6rSzokxZ42rOSsctQaGVq2DTN/9tWAgdS8hywppQNRjA44cfGRtkqkPE74fXefUjVsAY0bFFw1oUDI3+86sP+9kFC3lVz6sx0IOtGztmAIMWOfFDBmOGAD4weQ3HwPkE2m8GYUm05qEzczDUeU= Received: by 10.49.27.12 with SMTP id e12mr1626084nfj; Fri, 19 May 2006 10:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.55.14 with HTTP; Fri, 19 May 2006 10:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9f7850090605191035n746eec0etb2546dd5e15e5ccf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:35:10 -0700 From: "marty fouts" To: "Jim Thompson" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <446BBE65.50104@FreeBSD.org> <9f7850090605171746p5ff4dbefq46211ce93aafc116@mail.gmail.com> <446C2380.6020000@FreeBSD.org> <9f7850090605181006m56c38a56lcc7037beaf6b6fa@mail.gmail.com> <2159F853-C89E-4032-9931-56F4B7D214C0@netgate.com> <9f7850090605181118o30b71b94mca294b2195e9ae1e@mail.gmail.com> Cc: gnn@freebsd.org, freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Flash File Systems or Translation Layers? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 19:17:34 -0000 On 5/18/06, Jim Thompson wrote: > Your >=3D 64MB requirement also tends to 'signal' why you prefer NAND > flash, as its much less > expensive than NOR flash in similar densities. Still, this "64MB" > requirement makes for an expensive board. TS7250, quantity 1, with 128mb NAND is < $200 US. That's hardly expensive. It's one of the cheapest ARM based development board that I'm aware of. > > Agreed. But I think that NAND and NOR are enough different that they > > need to be supported differently. > > Perhaps, thought I will allow that JFFS2 can deal with both, and a > good FTL would be able to 'hide' most of > the details. Here we have to agree to disagree. My experience with JFFS2 suggests that while it can "deal" with NAND, it doesn't do so very well. I also don't believe that a single FTL works well to cover the range of differences between NOR and NAND. I'd rather have a separate FTL for each, that concentrates on doing a good job for that kind of flash.