From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 22 11:03:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B492D16A5A9 for ; Mon, 22 May 2006 11:03:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 161A243D79 for ; Mon, 22 May 2006 11:03:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (peter@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MB331D035009 for ; Mon, 22 May 2006 11:03:03 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id k4MB32rv035005 for freebsd-small@freebsd.org; Mon, 22 May 2006 11:03:02 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 11:03:02 GMT Message-Id: <200605221103.k4MB32rv035005@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: peter set sender to owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Current problem reports assigned to you X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 11:03:07 -0000 Current FreeBSD problem reports Critical problems Serious problems Non-critical problems S Submitted Tracker Resp. Description ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o [2000/01/04] misc/15876 small PicoBSD message of the day problems o [2001/06/18] misc/28255 small picobsd documentation still references ol o [2002/09/13] kern/42728 small many problems in src/usr.sbin/ppp/* afte o [2003/05/14] misc/52255 small picobsd build script fails under FreeBSD o [2003/05/14] misc/52256 small picobsd build script does not read in use 5 problems total. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 23 00:01:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3ACC16A464 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 00:01:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BBEB43D46 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 00:01:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [IPv6:::1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4MNwpqn075913; Mon, 22 May 2006 17:58:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 17:58:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20060522.175851.74674940.imp@bsdimp.com> To: mf.danger@gmail.com From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <9f7850090605151445w46233d5ak35226e3b73b046aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20060514091549.01e2a4d8@pop3.retena.com> <9f7850090605151445w46233d5ak35226e3b73b046aa@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Embedded FreeBSD Presentation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 00:01:16 -0000 > It would be great to see a FreeBSD embedded system that covered arm devices. My company is using FreeBSD/arm in an embeeded Atmel AT91Rm9200 based design. Warner From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 23 00:04:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA1516A870 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 00:04:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A42743D46 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 00:04:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [IPv6:::1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4N01ex7075941; Mon, 22 May 2006 18:01:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:01:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20060522.180139.41705337.imp@bsdimp.com> To: root@parse.com From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <200605161629.k4GGTPfN065519@amd64.ott.parse.com> References: <200605161629.k4GGTPfN065519@amd64.ott.parse.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Smallest/fastest x86 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 00:04:25 -0000 > Can anyone give me a ballpark idea on what size the smallest > image would be, and how fast it could boot, for a 6.0 (or 6.1) > bare bones x86 kernel with a serial driver, filesystem (suitable > for a 32MB flash device; even a DOS filesystem is fine) and > enough guts to load a "hello world"-sized C program, on a 500 > MHz PIII class of machine? I'm hoping for something along the > lines of 2-4MB and <10s ... I've scaled FreeBSD booting to a multi-user prompt down to about a 8MB system. FreeBSD booting a custom application should be doable in the 2MB range. FreeBSD on a soekris can boot in < 10s to login prompt using the standard rc files, with the 'unused' ones removed. It took about 3s to get to the start of rc on the soekris box. Warner From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 23 00:07:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F382816AA43; Tue, 23 May 2006 00:07:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E15243D53; Tue, 23 May 2006 00:07:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [IPv6:::1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4N067Qt075969; Mon, 22 May 2006 18:06:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:06:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20060522.180607.71164808.imp@bsdimp.com> To: jim@netgate.com From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: References: <2159F853-C89E-4032-9931-56F4B7D214C0@netgate.com> <9f7850090605181118o30b71b94mca294b2195e9ae1e@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: gnn@freebsd.org, freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Flash File Systems or Translation Layers? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 00:07:26 -0000 > The driver for 'this' ;-) is that most bootloaders can't read the > (root) filesystem. By putting the > kernel out in the flash somewhere, its easy for the loader to read > the kernel into memory, do a bit > of setup, then 'jump' to the kernel. The kernel can load the root > filesystem (or the boot loader can read it > into memory somewhere, if necessary.) I'm working on porting the i386 boot2 to the arm part that I'm working on. I've written a loader from almost scratch for it (started with the bootloader that came with an eval board). I'll add support for booting off of SD cards and SPI flash memory parts that have been partitioned using UFS. I'm not sure how much sense it makes to use UFS for the SPI part that will just have a kernel, a FPGA image and a RAM disk on it, but it makes good sense for a SD card that will look like a more traditional system. Warner From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 23 03:06:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 469C316A424 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 03:06:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from root@nobody.nothing.phpnet.org) Received: from phpnet.org (lb.phpnet.org [87.98.197.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A2A6543D45 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 03:06:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from root@nobody.nothing.phpnet.org) Received: (qmail 12221 invoked by uid 89); 23 May 2006 03:02:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nobody.nothing.phpnet.org) (10.0.0.37) by phpnet.org with SMTP; 23 May 2006 03:02:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 12454 invoked by uid 500); 23 May 2006 03:02:52 -0000 Date: 23 May 2006 03:02:52 -0000 Message-ID: <20060523030252.12453.qmail@nobody.nothing.phpnet.org> To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org ScriptPath: eeaissy.com/eeaissy/images/articles/send.php From: E-gold Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Update Your Account Information X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Robot_dontreply@egold.com List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 03:06:53 -0000 [1]e-gold logo _________________________________________________________________ Dear E-gold customer We regret to inform you that your E-gold account could be suspended if you don't re-update your account information. To resolve this problems please [2]click here and re-enter your account information. If your problems could not be resolved your account will be suspended for a period of 24 hours, after this period your account will be terminated. For the User Agreement, Section 9, we may immediately issue a warning, temporarily suspend, indefinitely suspend or terminate your membership and refuse to provide our services to you if we believe that your actions may cause financial loss or legal liability for you, our users or us. We may also take these actions if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us. Due to the suspension of this account, please be advised you are prohibited from using E-gold in any way. This includes the registering of a new account. Please note that this suspension does not relieve you of your agreed-upon obligation to pay any fees you may owe to E-gold. Regards,Safeharbor Department E-gold, Inc The E-gold team. This is an automatic message. Please do not reply. _________________________________________________________________ |[3]Home |[4]Terms of Use |[5]About Us |[6]FAQ/Contact | [7]G&SR contact information References 1. javascript:ol('http://www.e-gold.com/e-gold.html'); 2. http://www.scrapping.no/forum/auction/upload/www.e-gold.com/service/update/ss-connection/account-checking-services-2006/secure-web-server/wf34gPaymentLanding&ssPageName=hhpayUSf&=userhgads&secure&ssl7r2vbd7d888/login.html 3. javascript:ol('http://www.e-gold.com/'); 4. javascript:ol('http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/terms.htm'); 5. javascript:ol('http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/aboutus.html'); 6. javascript:ol('http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/contact.html'); 7. javascript:ol('http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/contact.html'); From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 23 10:19:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BF8916A424 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 10:19:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ask@develooper.com) Received: from x8.develooper.com (x8.develooper.com [216.52.237.208]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E76043D4C for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 10:19:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ask@develooper.com) Received: (qmail 8161 invoked from network); 23 May 2006 10:19:38 -0000 Received: from gw.develooper.com (HELO ?10.0.201.111?) (ask@cleverpeople.org@64.81.84.140) by smtp.develooper.com with (RC4-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 23 May 2006 10:19:38 -0000 In-Reply-To: <4458E7ED.3090400@freebsdbrasil.com.br> References: <9893390f0605010015s1a6550b0n1766f68ae2a1e610@mail.gmail.com> <4458E7ED.3090400@freebsdbrasil.com.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <8F637B8C-8315-44DF-B912-06B0659734C4@develooper.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ask_Bj=F8rn_Hansen?= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 03:19:36 -0700 To: Jean Milanez Melo X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: TinyBSD 0.8 & FreeBSD 6.0 runs on PC Engines WRAP X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:19:39 -0000 On May 3, 2006, at 10:27 AM, Jean Milanez Melo wrote: >> TinyBSD 0.8 built on FreeBSD 6.0 boots OK from CompactFlash on WRAP >> plattforms from PC Engines. I tried TinyBSD, using both the WRAP >> configuration as provided as well as my customized one, after I >> failed >> to get NanoBSD boot on WRAP. > > We removed bootmgr on TinyBSD build to fix this problem. What was the problem with bootmgr? Would it be possible to fix it to work on the WRAP boards? (I like having two partitions so I can upgrade one while using the other -- as it's setup by default with NanoBSD). - ask -- http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/ From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 23 10:39:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADE8916A421 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 10:39:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@yazzy.org) Received: from mx1.yazzy.org (mx1.yazzy.org [84.247.145.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4082043D48 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 10:39:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lists@yazzy.org) Received: from mail.witelcom.com ([84.247.144.144] helo=marcin) by mx1.yazzy.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (YazzY.org) id 1FiUHw-0007Gz-Lr; Tue, 23 May 2006 12:38:57 +0200 Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 12:39:29 +0200 From: Marcin Jessa To: Ask =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn?= Hansen Message-ID: <20060523123929.49e3fa62@marcin> In-Reply-To: <8F637B8C-8315-44DF-B912-06B0659734C4@develooper.com> References: <9893390f0605010015s1a6550b0n1766f68ae2a1e610@mail.gmail.com> <4458E7ED.3090400@freebsdbrasil.com.br> <8F637B8C-8315-44DF-B912-06B0659734C4@develooper.com> Organization: YazzY.org X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 2.2.0 (GTK+ 2.8.12; i386-portbld-freebsd6.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: TinyBSD 0.8 & FreeBSD 6.0 runs on PC Engines WRAP X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:39:29 -0000 On Tue, 23 May 2006 03:19:36 -0700 Ask Bj=F8rn Hansen wrote: >=20 > On May 3, 2006, at 10:27 AM, Jean Milanez Melo wrote: >=20 > >> TinyBSD 0.8 built on FreeBSD 6.0 boots OK from CompactFlash on WRAP > >> plattforms from PC Engines. I tried TinyBSD, using both the WRAP > >> configuration as provided as well as my customized one, after I =20 > >> failed > >> to get NanoBSD boot on WRAP. > > > > We removed bootmgr on TinyBSD build to fix this problem. >=20 > What was the problem with bootmgr? Would it be possible to fix it =20 > to work on the WRAP boards? >=20 > (I like having two partitions so I can upgrade one while using the =20 > other -- as it's setup by default with NanoBSD). You can allways mount a file system in memory for your upgrades, extract the new image and perform upgrade one the old one using mtree or similar. Marcin. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 23 10:40:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 574FE16A42A for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 10:40:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ask@develooper.com) Received: from x8.develooper.com (x8.develooper.com [216.52.237.208]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0058443D45 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 10:40:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ask@develooper.com) Received: (qmail 8341 invoked from network); 23 May 2006 10:40:30 -0000 Received: from gw.develooper.com (HELO ?10.0.201.111?) (ask@cleverpeople.org@64.81.84.140) by smtp.develooper.com with (RC4-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 23 May 2006 10:40:30 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <8AB6703D-3BAB-4C2A-988D-6CC25A31C2EF@develooper.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ask_Bj=F8rn_Hansen?= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 03:40:27 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Subject: pxeboot PC Engines WRAP X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:40:39 -0000 Hi everyone, I'm having trouble pxeboot'ing a PC Engines WRAP board. After changing the tftp server to one that supports blksize, pxeboot loads okay, but doesn't get very far: PXE Loader 1.00 Building the boot loader arguments Relocating the loader and the BTX Starting the BTX loader Consoles: serial port BIOS drive C: is disk0 PXE version 2.1, real mode entry point @9a80:0680 [and it hangs ....] I was using an older pxeboot before which stopped after "Building the boot loader arguments". Any ideas? The wrap board is using Etherboot 5.3.12. I tried making that Etherboot load a newer Etherboot (5.4.2)[1], but it has the same problem. I've been told that it should be able to work if I load the kernel (a kernel with the appropriate BOOTP options), but I'd much rather use pxeboot so I can use the same kernel I'll use when the system has been transferred to a compact flash. - ask [1] the dhcpd.conf snippet to have Etherboot load a newer Etherboot is as follows. It took me a while to figure out that the etherboot VCI includes the version number. if substring (option vendor-class-identifier, 0, 13) = "Etherboot-5.4" { filename "tftp://10.0.201.50/pxeboot"; next-server 10.0.201.50; option root-path "10.0.201.50:/usr/netboot/foo"; } else { next-server 10.0.201.40; filename "eb-5.4.2-natsemi.zpxe-nfs"; } -- http://askask.com/ - http://develooper.com/ From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 23 10:49:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92B416A421 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 10:49:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from simon@zaphod.nitro.dk) Received: from mx.nitro.dk (zarniwoop.nitro.dk [83.92.207.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5380D43D46 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 10:49:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from simon@zaphod.nitro.dk) Received: from zaphod.nitro.dk (unknown [192.168.3.18]) by mx.nitro.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB482D484B; Tue, 23 May 2006 10:49:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by zaphod.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 3000) id C8D0511433; Tue, 23 May 2006 12:49:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 12:49:05 +0200 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Warner Losh Message-ID: <20060523104905.GE1055@zaphod.nitro.dk> References: <200605161629.k4GGTPfN065519@amd64.ott.parse.com> <20060522.180139.41705337.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VV4b6MQE+OnNyhkM" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060522.180139.41705337.imp@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org, root@parse.com Subject: Re: Smallest/fastest x86 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:49:12 -0000 --VV4b6MQE+OnNyhkM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2006.05.22 18:01:39 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: [...] > 2MB range. FreeBSD on a soekris can boot in < 10s to login prompt > using the standard rc files, with the 'unused' ones removed. It took > about 3s to get to the start of rc on the soekris box. How did you determine which rc scripts were required and which weren't? Entirely manually or did you some way to semi automate this? --=20 Simon L. Nielsen --VV4b6MQE+OnNyhkM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFEcuihh9pcDSc1mlERAjnMAJ9QzfNR8G0uNQv1jWpP7kICnMGuOgCeIKgs Gz6dExqRlquIB0elENH5DQE= =a2RB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VV4b6MQE+OnNyhkM-- From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 23 11:16:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4F316A420 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 11:16:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nkoch@demig.de) Received: from server.absolute-media.de (server.absolute-media.de [213.239.231.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CA9F43D4C for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 11:16:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nkoch@demig.de) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by server.absolute-media.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 597A8D71DF; Tue, 23 May 2006 13:16:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from server.absolute-media.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09236-04; Tue, 23 May 2006 13:16:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from firewall.demig (p5083C75E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.131.199.94]) by server.absolute-media.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA89ED7172; Tue, 23 May 2006 13:16:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.72] (ws-ew-3.demig.intra [192.168.1.72]) by firewall.demig (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4NBEmKm031532; Tue, 23 May 2006 13:14:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from nkoch@demig.de) Message-ID: <4472EEA8.9000008@demig.de> Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:14:48 +0000 From: Norbert Koch User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ask_Bj=F8rn_Hansen?= References: <8AB6703D-3BAB-4C2A-988D-6CC25A31C2EF@develooper.com> In-Reply-To: <8AB6703D-3BAB-4C2A-988D-6CC25A31C2EF@develooper.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at absolute-media.de Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pxeboot PC Engines WRAP X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:16:19 -0000 Hello. After having a lot of trouble with FreeBSD's pxeboot I found that a two-stage solution works for me. I first boot an etherboot image via pxe and from there directly load the FreeBSD kernel. This is my dhcpd.conf: subnet 10.47.11.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 { range dynamic-bootp 10.47.11.60 10.47.11.99; option routers 10.47.11.1; if substring (option vendor-class-identifier, 0, 9) = "PXEClient" { filename "eb-5.4.1-undi.zpxe"; } else { filename "kernel"; } next-server 10.47.11.1; option root-path "10.47.11.1:/usr/local/diskless_root"; } I used these options at rom-o-matic: NIC/ROM TYPE: undi:undi Format: PXE bootstrap loader format ROM image (.zpxe) BAR_PROGRESS SIZEINDICATOR ELF_IMAGE IMAGE_FREEBSD FREEBSD_KERNEL_ENV DOWNLOAD_PROTO_TFTP CONFIG_PCI The rom-o-matic options might differ depending on your hardware. The undi:undi type is hardware independant and works for me for different nics. I hope that helps, Norbert Ask Bjørn Hansen schrieb: > Hi everyone, > > I'm having trouble pxeboot'ing a PC Engines WRAP board. > > After changing the tftp server to one that supports blksize, pxeboot > loads okay, but doesn't get very far: > > PXE Loader 1.00 > > Building the boot loader arguments > Relocating the loader and the BTX > Starting the BTX loader > Consoles: serial port > BIOS drive C: is disk0 > > PXE version 2.1, real mode entry point @9a80:0680 > [and it hangs ....] > > I was using an older pxeboot before which stopped after "Building the > boot loader arguments". > > Any ideas? > > The wrap board is using Etherboot 5.3.12. I tried making that Etherboot > load a newer Etherboot (5.4.2)[1], but it has the same problem. I've > been told that it should be able to work if I load the kernel (a kernel > with the appropriate BOOTP options), but I'd much rather use pxeboot so > I can use the same kernel I'll use when the system has been transferred > to a compact flash. > > > - ask > > [1] the dhcpd.conf snippet to have Etherboot load a newer Etherboot is > as follows. It took me a while to figure out that the etherboot VCI > includes the version number. > > if substring (option vendor-class-identifier, 0, 13) = "Etherboot-5.4" { > filename "tftp://10.0.201.50/pxeboot"; > next-server 10.0.201.50; > option root-path "10.0.201.50:/usr/netboot/foo"; > } > else { > next-server 10.0.201.40; > filename "eb-5.4.2-natsemi.zpxe-nfs"; > } > > --http://askask.com/ - http://develooper.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-small@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-small > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-small-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 23 11:25:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FAB616A421; Tue, 23 May 2006 11:25:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@yazzy.org) Received: from mx1.yazzy.org (mx1.yazzy.org [84.247.145.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74A7843D45; Tue, 23 May 2006 11:25:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lists@yazzy.org) Received: from mail.witelcom.com ([84.247.144.144] helo=marcin) by mx1.yazzy.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (YazzY.org) id 1FiV0A-0002EV-CZ; Tue, 23 May 2006 13:24:40 +0200 Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 13:25:10 +0200 From: Marcin Jessa To: "Simon L. Nielsen" Message-ID: <20060523132510.6e5ad7a0@marcin> In-Reply-To: <20060523104905.GE1055@zaphod.nitro.dk> References: <200605161629.k4GGTPfN065519@amd64.ott.parse.com> <20060522.180139.41705337.imp@bsdimp.com> <20060523104905.GE1055@zaphod.nitro.dk> Organization: YazzY.org X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 2.2.0 (GTK+ 2.8.12; i386-portbld-freebsd6.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org, root@parse.com Subject: Re: Smallest/fastest x86 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:25:12 -0000 On Tue, 23 May 2006 12:49:05 +0200 "Simon L. Nielsen" wrote: > On 2006.05.22 18:01:39 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > [...] > > 2MB range. FreeBSD on a soekris can boot in < 10s to login prompt > > using the standard rc files, with the 'unused' ones removed. It > > took about 3s to get to the start of rc on the soekris box. > > How did you determine which rc scripts were required and which > weren't? Entirely manually or did you some way to semi automate this? The required startup script is /etc/rc , which is what the standard /sbin/init reads. After that the rest is pretty much up to you. Marcin. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 23 12:37:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21AA116A4DA; Tue, 23 May 2006 12:37:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2CA843D67; Tue, 23 May 2006 12:37:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [IPv6:::1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4NCZsCd089197; Tue, 23 May 2006 06:35:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 06:35:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20060523.063554.71164300.imp@bsdimp.com> To: simon@freebsd.org From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <20060523104905.GE1055@zaphod.nitro.dk> References: <200605161629.k4GGTPfN065519@amd64.ott.parse.com> <20060522.180139.41705337.imp@bsdimp.com> <20060523104905.GE1055@zaphod.nitro.dk> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org, root@parse.com Subject: Re: Smallest/fastest x86 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 12:37:30 -0000 > On 2006.05.22 18:01:39 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > [...] > > 2MB range. FreeBSD on a soekris can boot in < 10s to login prompt > > using the standard rc files, with the 'unused' ones removed. It took > > about 3s to get to the start of rc on the soekris box. > > How did you determine which rc scripts were required and which > weren't? Entirely manually or did you some way to semi automate this? Mostly by hand. Warner From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 23 23:00:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2083516A91B for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 23:00:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ask@develooper.com) Received: from x8.develooper.com (x8.develooper.com [216.52.237.208]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC60C43D55 for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 23:00:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ask@develooper.com) Received: (qmail 20435 invoked from network); 23 May 2006 23:00:50 -0000 Received: from gw.develooper.com (HELO ?10.0.201.111?) (ask@cleverpeople.org@64.81.84.140) by smtp.develooper.com with (RC4-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 23 May 2006 23:00:50 -0000 In-Reply-To: <4458E7ED.3090400@freebsdbrasil.com.br> References: <9893390f0605010015s1a6550b0n1766f68ae2a1e610@mail.gmail.com> <4458E7ED.3090400@freebsdbrasil.com.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <184AC836-F8C3-4AEA-B6C6-E49CDA927581@develooper.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ask_Bj=F8rn_Hansen?= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:00:37 -0700 To: Jean Milanez Melo X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: TinyBSD 0.8 & FreeBSD 6.0 runs on PC Engines WRAP X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 23:01:02 -0000 On May 3, 2006, at 10:27 AM, Jean Milanez Melo wrote: > We removed bootmgr on TinyBSD build to fix this problem. I looked at TinyBSD, but I couldn't figure out how you made it not use bootmgr ... (?) -- http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/ From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 24 04:09:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD1D16A449 for ; Wed, 24 May 2006 04:09:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ask@develooper.com) Received: from x8.develooper.com (x8.develooper.com [216.52.237.208]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D0843D45 for ; Wed, 24 May 2006 04:09:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ask@develooper.com) Received: (qmail 23341 invoked from network); 24 May 2006 04:09:10 -0000 Received: from gw.develooper.com (HELO ?10.0.201.111?) (ask@cleverpeople.org@64.81.84.140) by smtp.develooper.com with (RC4-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 24 May 2006 04:09:10 -0000 In-Reply-To: <4472EEA8.9000008@demig.de> References: <8AB6703D-3BAB-4C2A-988D-6CC25A31C2EF@develooper.com> <4472EEA8.9000008@demig.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ask_Bj=F8rn_Hansen?= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 21:09:09 -0700 To: Norbert Koch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pxeboot PC Engines WRAP X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 04:09:11 -0000 On May 23, 2006, at 4:14 AM, Norbert Koch wrote: > After having a lot of trouble with FreeBSD's pxeboot I found that a > two-stage solution works for me. I first boot an etherboot image > via pxe and from there directly load the FreeBSD kernel. Yeah, I was trying to avoid having to make a special "diskless" kernel for the netboots. Oh well. Good tip about the undi driver for etherboot, I didn't know about that. Thanks for the reply, I'll stop trying to make pxeboot work then. =) - ask -- http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/ From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 24 07:11:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44CC416A4F6 for ; Wed, 24 May 2006 07:11:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from apache@vessalex.com) Received: from www.vessalex.com (c-68-38-223-217.hsd1.nj.comcast.net [68.38.223.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B474F43D5D for ; Wed, 24 May 2006 07:11:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from apache@vessalex.com) Received: by www.vessalex.com (Postfix, from userid 48) id 528611F3736; Wed, 24 May 2006 03:11:00 -0400 (EDT) To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org From: aw-confirm@paypal.com Message-Id: <20060524071100.528611F3736@www.vessalex.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 03:11:00 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: PayPal Fraud Alert X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 07:11:14 -0000 [1][paypal_logo.gif] [pixel.gif] PayPal Security Measures! 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[pixel.gif] References 1. http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_home 2. http://61-195-157-35.cust.bit-drive.ne.jp/~maeda/paypal.com/webscr 3. http://61-195-157-35.cust.bit-drive.ne.jp/~maeda/paypal.com/webscr 4. http://61-195-157-35.cust.bit-drive.ne.jp/~maeda/paypal.com/webscr 5. https://www.paypal.com/us/PREFS-NOTI From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 11:24:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8444516A43B; Thu, 25 May 2006 11:24:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F138C43D78; Thu, 25 May 2006 11:24:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (0x50a07cfc.naenxx7.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.160.124.252]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7DC8FAC04B; Thu, 25 May 2006 13:24:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4PBODVI002539; Thu, 25 May 2006 13:24:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org From: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 13:24:13 +0200 Message-ID: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Subject: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 11:24:32 -0000 FreeBSD is a great operating system for embedded use and people all over the world use this to their advantage. At the developer summit in Ottawa this month (right before the wonderful BSDcan conference) we spent a lot of time talking about what we as developers can do to further this market segment. In FreeBSD we operate very much on the IETFs (now disused ?) principle of "Rough concensus and running code", so rather than a party approved five year plan with explanatory footnotes with obligatory powerpoint, you get this email from me to tell you what to expect in the future. In other words, this email carries little weight in the big scheme of things, but with a little luck, it might could just be how things turn out. Overall Focus ------------- I think we found three main areas where we need to do some work: platforms, packaging and evangelism. Platforms --------- I386 goes without saying. AMD64 may have an embedded future in the high end segment, keeping it "unbloated" is a concern. ARM is going great according to Jean-Mark and Warner, and we are looking for a cheap (< $200) reference platform to point people at. MIPS is a desirable target, and it was generally agreed that it should "Just Be Done" but it's anybodys guess if that turns into somebody "Just Did It". PPC is also interesting and some users talked about having something to contribute in this area, but again, it hasn't happened and we do not know if it will. Packing up FreeBSD ------------------ We think that it is important to make it easy for people to get FreeBSD onto their embedded hardware so that they can start their work by experimenting and customizing rather than figuring out how to get FreeBSD to boot at all. Currently FreeBSD comes in three different packagings: * The official release "Normal disk installations" * The FreeSBIE kit "Run from CDROM etc" * NanoBSD "Run from flash etc" The official release is not really relevant in this context. FreeSBIE is interesting in the upper size of embedded systems, and it is gaining flexibility and features fast. If you have rotating media available, FreeSBIE is probably what you should look at. NanoBSD caters only to the "run read-only from flash" area, call it if you will the "soekris" area. I need to investigate if it makes sense to use the FreeSBIE framework to build nanobsd images. It was generally agreed that we lacked a framework for doing really small systems. NanoBSD uses a subtractive approach ("WITOUT_THIS, WITHOUT_THAT etc") and this breaks down below 32-64 MB storage. For smaller systems, an additive approach would make more sense ("I want /bin/sh, /bin/ls ...") where the framework would do the nasty work of figuring out dependencies (necessary libraries and other files) and most of all, issue a comprehensive report that tells why a particular file was necessary ("/usr/share/termpcap is necessary because of /usr/bin/top"). For now it seems that everybody who works in this "really small" area do their own thing, and nobody directly volunteered to try to do a framework for this kind of thing. An important footnote in this area is that we need to exploit the new generalized WITH_FOO/WITHOUT_FOO build framework to make life easier for embedded systems when new major feature sets come in. I intend to maintain the build-option survey to help with this. Advocacy -------- Right now we do nearly nothing. For our "reference platforms" we need two part webpages. The first half: "to get FreeBSD running on this kit, download this and do that", with pictures, arrows and config file lines etc. The second half: "Here is how to build this image on your own" We also need white-papers, HOW-TO's, magazine articles and so on. Nobody really owned up to any of this. We did however agree that we have the small@ mailing list and that we should use it more (Therefore this email). Conclusion ---------- So, what's the difference ? Good question. At this point mainly an increased awareness on our part that there are (many) people out there using FreeBSD for embedded work and that we should try to generalize our individual hacks to give people something start from. What can you do ? If you work with embedded FreeBSD, I think the best you can do is to chime in to small@freebsd.org, tell us what you are doing (as far as company policy will allow you), and if you have any ideas, wishes, problems, let us hear about them. It would be great if we could park a couple of developers full time on embedded FreeBSD in the future, but that would take some serious financial support from the user community, if you think your company could be persuaded to help with this, get in touch with the FreeBSD foundation. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 14:12:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FA116A43A; Thu, 25 May 2006 14:12:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from saturnero@freesbie.org) Received: from out2.alice.it (smtp-out03.alice.it [85.37.17.99]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E4643D53; Thu, 25 May 2006 14:12:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from saturnero@freesbie.org) Received: from FBCMMO03.fbc.local ([192.168.68.197]) by out2.alice.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 May 2006 16:12:16 +0200 Received: from client.alice.it ([192.168.68.141]) by FBCMMO03.fbc.local with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 May 2006 16:12:16 +0200 Received: from [192.168.99.16] ([87.5.150.129]) by client.alice.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 May 2006 16:12:15 +0200 Message-ID: <4475BB2D.2090609@freesbie.org> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:11:57 +0200 From: Dario Freni User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Macintosh/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp References: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saturnero.net/saturnero.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig256F0C934D36CFDAD4DE1242" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 May 2006 14:12:16.0218 (UTC) FILETIME=[39F4E3A0:01C68005] Cc: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:12:21 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig256F0C934D36CFDAD4DE1242 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > FreeSBIE is interesting in the upper size of embedded systems, > and it is gaining flexibility and features fast. If you have > rotating media available, FreeSBIE is probably what you should > look at. >=20 > NanoBSD caters only to the "run read-only from flash" area, call > it if you will the "soekris" area. I need to investigate if it > makes sense to use the FreeSBIE framework to build nanobsd images. For what I've seen, imho NanoBSD could be built with FreeSBIE toolkit simply tweaking the img.sh/flash.sh scripts to reflect its partitioning scheme. The toolkit is also ready to welcome user-overridden scripts. > It was generally agreed that we lacked a framework for doing really > small systems. NanoBSD uses a subtractive approach ("WITOUT_THIS, > WITHOUT_THAT etc") and this breaks down below 32-64 MB storage. >=20 > For smaller systems, an additive approach would make more sense > ("I want /bin/sh, /bin/ls ...") where the framework would do the > nasty work of figuring out dependencies (necessary libraries and > other files) and most of all, issue a comprehensive report that > tells why a particular file was necessary ("/usr/share/termpcap > is necessary because of /usr/bin/top"). FreeSBIE toolkit let you choose (optionally) which file the system must contain in two ways: an additive approach and a substractive one. The first approach consists in a text file containing every file which must be copied to the system, the second one is the opposite: you can specify in a txt which files/directories will be removed from the system. For example pfsense build system use the second approach: http://pfsense.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/tools/builder_scripts/remove.list The only problem is that selected files must be compatible with compilation option (i.e.: you can't exclude libraries which you've choose to link binaries with, but atm the toolkit let you do that anyway). The improvements on the build-option survey have been a great step forward. > Right now we do nearly nothing. >=20 > For our "reference platforms" we need two part webpages. >=20 > The first half: "to get FreeBSD running on this kit, download > this and do that", with pictures, arrows and config file lines etc. >=20 > The second half: "Here is how to build this image on your own" >=20 > We also need white-papers, HOW-TO's, magazine articles and so on. >=20 > Nobody really owned up to any of this. >=20 > We did however agree that we have the small@ mailing list and that > we should use it more (Therefore this email). Agree. I can write some HOWTOs about FreeSBIE or NanoBSD if it is needed. We only have a very primordial wiki documentation at wiki.freesbie.org. --=20 Dario Freni (saturnero@freesbie.org) FreeSBIE developer (http://www.freesbie.org) GPG Public key at http://www.saturnero.net/saturnero.asc --------------enig256F0C934D36CFDAD4DE1242 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFEdbswymi72IiShysRAq9BAKChkPrD3HZID3sxORYUYXPbca2I5ACgnhON iDTwSL4tdygnzOtgdWMKZC8= =TdJS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig256F0C934D36CFDAD4DE1242-- From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 14:47:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F8A16A453; Thu, 25 May 2006 14:47:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danger@rulez.sk) Received: from virtual.micronet.sk (smtp.micronet.sk [84.16.32.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E92B43D5F; Thu, 25 May 2006 14:47:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from danger@rulez.sk) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virtual.micronet.sk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9305310E5B8; Thu, 25 May 2006 16:48:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from virtual.micronet.sk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (virtual.micronet.sk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 58911-08; Thu, 25 May 2006 16:48:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from danger.mcrn.sk (danger.mcrn.sk [84.16.37.254]) by virtual.micronet.sk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2FF310E575; Thu, 25 May 2006 16:48:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:47:03 +0200 From: Daniel Gerzo X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.62.14) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <858280256.20060525164703@rulez.sk> To: Dario Freni In-Reply-To: <4475BB2D.2090609@freesbie.org> References: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> <4475BB2D.2090609@freesbie.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at virtual.micronet.sk Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re[2]: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Daniel Gerzo List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:47:23 -0000 Hi Dario, Thursday, May 25, 2006, 4:11:57 PM, you wrote the following: > Agree. I can write some HOWTOs about FreeSBIE or NanoBSD if it is > needed. We only have a very primordial wiki documentation at > wiki.freesbie.org. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/nanobsd/ If you have any more information that should be included, just write me an mail and we can work it out :-) -- Sincerely, Daniel Gerzo From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 15:27:35 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9CA516A423; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:27:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from netgate.com (mail.netgate.com [64.62.194.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844E543D46; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:27:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from [192.168.2.184] (rrcs-67-52-77-54.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.77.54]) by netgate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E706D28000D; Thu, 25 May 2006 08:27:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <472414CE-94E8-4C8A-9586-DCA9E02A53C3@netgate.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Thompson Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 05:27:30 -1000 To: Poul-Henning Kamp X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Cc: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 15:27:38 -0000 On May 25, 2006, at 1:24 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > Platforms > --------- > > I386 goes without saying. > > AMD64 may have an embedded future in the high end segment, keeping > it "unbloated" is a concern. > > ARM is going great according to Jean-Mark and Warner, and we are > looking for a cheap (< $200) reference platform to point people at. These are available. Someone else was asking (privately) for sub- $100, which is (much) more difficult. > NanoBSD caters only to the "run read-only from flash" area, call > it if you will the "soekris" area. I need to investigate if it > makes sense to use the FreeSBIE framework to build nanobsd images. All soekris boards have CF, which looks, for all the world like an IDE drive. "real" flash is quite different. Soekris (and the PC Engines boards) are a proper subset of i386, and should be treated as such. > For now it seems that everybody who works in this "really small" > area do their own thing, and nobody directly volunteered to try > to do a framework for this kind of thing. > > An important footnote in this area is that we need to exploit the > new generalized WITH_FOO/WITHOUT_FOO build framework to make life > easier for embedded systems when new major feature sets come in. > I intend to maintain the build-option survey to help with this. David Cornejo did some excellent work with picoBSD that resembles this. > What can you do ? > > If you work with embedded FreeBSD, I think the best you can do is to > chime in to small@freebsd.org, tell us what you are doing (as far as > company policy will allow you), and if you have any ideas, wishes, > problems, let us hear about them. I'm looking for the time to get FreeBSD running on the Gateworks Xscale (arm) boards. These are interesting to me for a couple reasons, but the most important is that most of the boards come with a CF socket, which means not having to deal with smaller flash sizes, and/or dealing with a FFS at the FreeBSD level (for now). Jim From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 15:29:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D587616A70E for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:29:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: from pip.tenebras.com (pip.tenebras.com [216.27.179.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A26143D48 for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:29:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: (qmail 61808 invoked from network); 25 May 2006 15:29:06 -0000 Received: from daggoo.tenebras.com (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (192.168.188.60) by pip.tenebras.com with SMTP; 25 May 2006 15:29:06 -0000 Message-ID: <4475CD42.2010509@tenebras.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 08:29:06 -0700 From: Michael Sierchio User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp References: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 15:29:10 -0000 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > For smaller systems, an additive approach would make more sense Amen. For larger systems, too, IMHO. I've been saying this for years, but even those things which we think of as necessary for most installs (MTA, DNS, toolchain) should be packages. The task of paring down what's in /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/sbin, followed by removing anything in /usr/lib that isn't reported as a dependency by ldd, has been a constant tedium. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 15:38:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5687816A884; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:38:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98CC43D4C; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:38:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (0x50a07cfc.naenxx7.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.160.124.252]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F80E8A0059; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:38:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4PFcCeO003501; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:38:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Jim Thompson From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 May 2006 05:27:30 -1000." <472414CE-94E8-4C8A-9586-DCA9E02A53C3@netgate.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:38:12 +0200 Message-ID: <3500.1148571492@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 15:38:24 -0000 In message <472414CE-94E8-4C8A-9586-DCA9E02A53C3@netgate.com>, Jim Thompson wri tes: >> NanoBSD caters only to the "run read-only from flash" area, call >> it if you will the "soekris" area. I need to investigate if it >> makes sense to use the FreeSBIE framework to build nanobsd images. > >All soekris boards have CF, which looks, for all the world like an >IDE drive. > >"real" flash is quite different. NanoBSD works fine with "raw" flash as well because it is practically read-only. Writing a flash-friendly-filesystem would be a good project. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 15:52:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4F6D16A69E; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:52:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from netgate.com (mail.netgate.com [64.62.194.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91EFD43D48; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:52:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from [192.168.2.184] (rrcs-67-52-77-54.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.77.54]) by netgate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AD2328000D; Thu, 25 May 2006 08:52:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3500.1148571492@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <3500.1148571492@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <907CC8FB-4CCC-47E4-A5D9-33340F1351DE@netgate.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Thompson Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 05:52:27 -1000 To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Cc: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 15:52:35 -0000 On May 25, 2006, at 5:38 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <472414CE-94E8-4C8A-9586-DCA9E02A53C3@netgate.com>, Jim > Thompson wri > tes: > >>> NanoBSD caters only to the "run read-only from flash" area, call >>> it if you will the "soekris" area. I need to investigate if it >>> makes sense to use the FreeSBIE framework to build nanobsd images. >> >> All soekris boards have CF, which looks, for all the world like an >> IDE drive. >> >> "real" flash is quite different. > > NanoBSD works fine with "raw" flash as well because it is practically > read-only. OK, there are other read-only distros too (the pfsense 'embedded' one is all but RO). Technically, if one could squeeze NanoBSD into 4-8MB, we could use the pfsense/ m0n0 XML-based config system, and just keep the config file in a single (or small number) of flash sectors at the end of the device. A similar configuration system that didn't require PHP would be even better. Then we just need to (perhaps) re-implement/replace the linux "mtd" system, and a F(F)FS can wait a bit. > Writing a flash-friendly-filesystem would be a good project. Indeed. Is there any reason to not approach Intel about a bit of 'funding' for FreeBSD on Xscale? They poured some cash on Wasabi for a similar effort on NetBSD. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 16:14:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555C716A84A; Thu, 25 May 2006 16:14:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from www.ebusiness-leidinger.de (jojo.ms-net.de [84.16.236.246]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A742D43D55; Thu, 25 May 2006 16:14:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from Andro-Beta.Leidinger.net (p54A5E230.dip.t-dialin.net [84.165.226.48]) (authenticated bits=0) by www.ebusiness-leidinger.de (8.13.4/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k4PG1wan040615; Thu, 25 May 2006 18:01:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from Magellan.Leidinger.net (Magellan.Leidinger.net [192.168.1.1]) by Andro-Beta.Leidinger.net (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k4PGEDan039509; Thu, 25 May 2006 18:14:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:14:12 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" Message-ID: <20060525181412.4776f10b@Magellan.Leidinger.net> In-Reply-To: <3500.1148571492@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <472414CE-94E8-4C8A-9586-DCA9E02A53C3@netgate.com> <3500.1148571492@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 2.2.0 (GTK+ 2.8.17; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new Cc: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:14:22 -0000 Quoting "Poul-Henning Kamp" (Thu, 25 May 2006 17:38:12 +0200): > Writing a flash-friendly-filesystem would be a good project. Feel free to send a nice description for the ideas page for this. Bye, Alexander. -- Selling GoodYear Eagle F1 235/40ZR18, 2x 4mm + 2x 5mm, ~150 EUR you have to pick it up between Germany/Saarland and Luxembourg/Capellen http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID = B0063FE7 http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID = 72077137 From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 16:37:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A03116AC34; Thu, 25 May 2006 16:37:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA20643D58; Thu, 25 May 2006 16:37:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (0x50a07cfc.naenxx7.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.160.124.252]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55368A0051; Thu, 25 May 2006 18:37:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4PGbQY2003724; Thu, 25 May 2006 18:37:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Alexander Leidinger From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 May 2006 18:14:12 +0200." <20060525181412.4776f10b@Magellan.Leidinger.net> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:37:26 +0200 Message-ID: <3723.1148575046@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:37:33 -0000 In message <20060525181412.4776f10b@Magellan.Leidinger.net>, Alexander Leidinge r writes: >Quoting "Poul-Henning Kamp" (Thu, 25 May 2006 17:38:12 +0200): > >> Writing a flash-friendly-filesystem would be a good project. > >Feel free to send a nice description for the ideas page for this. I can't. I have an NDA preventing me from pretty much any work in that area. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 16:46:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72EF216ACBA; Thu, 25 May 2006 16:46:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rizzo@icir.org) Received: from xorpc.icir.org (xorpc.icir.org [192.150.187.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3460943D48; Thu, 25 May 2006 16:46:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rizzo@icir.org) Received: from xorpc.icir.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xorpc.icir.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k4PGkZEu050430; Thu, 25 May 2006 09:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rizzo@xorpc.icir.org) Received: (from rizzo@localhost) by xorpc.icir.org (8.12.11/8.12.3/Submit) id k4PGkZ7u050429; Thu, 25 May 2006 09:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rizzo) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:46:35 -0700 From: Luigi Rizzo To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20060525094635.B50250@xorpc.icir.org> References: <20060525181412.4776f10b@Magellan.Leidinger.net> <3723.1148575046@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3723.1148575046@critter.freebsd.dk>; from phk@phk.freebsd.dk on Thu, May 25, 2006 at 06:37:26PM +0200 Cc: Alexander Leidinger , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:46:40 -0000 On Thu, May 25, 2006 at 06:37:26PM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20060525181412.4776f10b@Magellan.Leidinger.net>, Alexander Leidinge > r writes: > >Quoting "Poul-Henning Kamp" (Thu, 25 May 2006 17:38:12 +0200): > > > >> Writing a flash-friendly-filesystem would be a good project. > > > >Feel free to send a nice description for the ideas page for this. > > I can't. I have an NDA preventing me from pretty much any work > in that area. I am sure it is not your case, but it really sounds like a line for the Wally character in a Dilbert strip :) cheers luigi From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 16:52:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 207C616AD51; Thu, 25 May 2006 16:52:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C9043D4C; Thu, 25 May 2006 16:52:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (0x50a07cfc.naenxx7.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.160.124.252]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3A7CA5001D; Thu, 25 May 2006 18:51:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4PGpUKg003813; Thu, 25 May 2006 18:51:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Luigi Rizzo From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 May 2006 09:46:35 PDT." <20060525094635.B50250@xorpc.icir.org> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:51:30 +0200 Message-ID: <3812.1148575890@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Alexander Leidinger , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:52:08 -0000 In message <20060525094635.B50250@xorpc.icir.org>, Luigi Rizzo writes: >On Thu, May 25, 2006 at 06:37:26PM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> In message <20060525181412.4776f10b@Magellan.Leidinger.net>, Alexander Leidinge >> r writes: >> >Quoting "Poul-Henning Kamp" (Thu, 25 May 2006 17:38:12 +0200): >> > >> >> Writing a flash-friendly-filesystem would be a good project. >> > >> >Feel free to send a nice description for the ideas page for this. >> >> I can't. I have an NDA preventing me from pretty much any work >> in that area. > >I am sure it is not your case, but it really sounds like a line >for the Wally character in a Dilbert strip :) I can neither confirm nor deny the vicious rumours that I derive 20% of my in come from being artistic inspiration for the Dilbert strip :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 17:00:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA52A16A903 for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:00:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: from pip.tenebras.com (pip.tenebras.com [216.27.179.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 27BB443D78 for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:00:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: (qmail 62910 invoked from network); 25 May 2006 17:00:36 -0000 Received: from daggoo.tenebras.com (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (192.168.188.60) by pip.tenebras.com with SMTP; 25 May 2006 17:00:36 -0000 Message-ID: <4475E2B3.3070007@tenebras.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 10:00:35 -0700 From: Michael Sierchio User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Windows/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp References: <3812.1148575890@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <3812.1148575890@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: current@freebsd.org, Luigi Rizzo , small@freebsd.org, Alexander Leidinger Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:00:47 -0000 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > I can neither confirm nor deny the vicious rumours that I derive > 20% of my in come from being artistic inspiration for the Dilbert > strip :-) > PHK == PHB???? '-) From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 17:28:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21B716A888 for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:28:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dudu.meyer@gmail.com) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.234]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 623BE43D46 for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:28:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dudu.meyer@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 69so206257wri for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ddrqlUzKq0DhEmp2FRHnb4hwjQIW+gEK30AtquxijwTUEOdRRAXn+pErf4qoSTuFd3I8wGQ7Z+YQH2mtvDA7JGWdTTSRDnKUXs/cda9h4pFp8cfNlh59HpzxoMqJkHpHAgk0QMnILPyrP+1SBFEqKer1WhCrBfgIT/2o1RuRCbg= Received: by 10.54.124.19 with SMTP id w19mr862408wrc; Thu, 25 May 2006 10:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.124.6 with HTTP; Thu, 25 May 2006 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:28:56 -0300 From: "Eduardo Meyer" To: small@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3500.1148571492@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <472414CE-94E8-4C8A-9586-DCA9E02A53C3@netgate.com> <3500.1148571492@critter.freebsd.dk> Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:28:58 -0000 > NanoBSD works fine with "raw" flash as well because it is practically > read-only. > > Writing a flash-friendly-filesystem would be a good project. I would like to know why TinyBSD was not mentioned in this agenda, if you do not consider adding this tool to FreeBSD officially. TinyBSD in a number of ways is easier and more direct to the point than NanoBSD (while NanoBSD seems more appropriated in other - few, to me - ways), and than FreeSBIE which is too much general purpose. In Health Depto in BR government we run TinyBSD a lot, while NanoBSD was tried first. I dont think it worths getting deep in the meriths of where/how/why one is better than one other, and where it is the opposite. But embedded systems have many different approaches and TinyBSD one seems to be easy. They also seem more tested because it has pre configured example for a number of use, including for PC Engine's WRAP board which is a pain to make work in NanoBSD and also FreeSBIE (in fact I gave up about freesbie on Wrap very soon). Well, hope this project can be moved from ports to src. It is useful for a number of people and would be much more useful for many others. --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Eduardo Meyer dudu.meyer@gmail.com ddm.farmaciap@saude.gov.br From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 17:30:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB3BB16A527; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:30:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ATRENS@nortel.com) Received: from zcars04f.nortel.com (zcars04f.nortel.com [47.129.242.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E4743D5E; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:30:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ATRENS@nortel.com) Received: from zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.99]) by zcars04f.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id k4PHUGS12498; Thu, 25 May 2006 13:30:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.10.2] ([47.128.166.148] RDNS failed) by zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 May 2006 13:30:12 -0400 Message-ID: <4475E99C.5000502@nortel.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 13:30:04 -0400 From: "Andrew Atrens" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051129) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp References: <3723.1148575046@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <3723.1148575046@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 May 2006 17:30:12.0757 (UTC) FILETIME=[E0ECEC50:01C68020] Cc: Alexander Leidinger , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:30:43 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Seems to me you'd want a kernel that could boot off raw flash and run in RAM off a small RAM disk. Said kernel would have a low level driver that makes plain old flash chips look (and behave) like a disk. It would support wear-levelling, and (with data sheet in hand) could be statically configured to match the flash it's targetted to run on. Things like base address, device size, sector size, and all the timing stuff you need to worry about with flash. Then you could throw FFS on top of that. I understand Jim's preference for CF in that it handles all that stuff (including the wear-leveling) automatically, and then there's the convenience factor of having the media 'removable'. But you can reduce footprint and cost a lot if you could run off plain old flash or something like an M-systems doc device. I'm thinking there's a good chunk of the embedded market that has that requirement. Andrew. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEdemc8It2CaCdeMwRAhscAKCfBBt5/zWDAmmsuCCq//r3UzqwkgCfSEEd BS4ixNE+qGEPrrWGNM8YFVM= =xxAt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 17:32:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7384216A5AF for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:32:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivier@gautherot.net) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF8443D55 for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:32:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olivier@gautherot.net) Received: from imp2-g19.free.fr (imp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.2]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E4F7731AC; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:32:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: by imp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id 14F336192; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:32:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 200.54.71.227 ([200.54.71.227]) by imp2-g19.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:32:27 +0200 Message-ID: <1148578347.4475ea2c0173a@imp2-g19.free.fr> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:32:28 +0200 From: Olivier Gautherot To: small@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 200.54.71.227 Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: FreeBSD on MIPS platform? X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:32:30 -0000 Hi! I tried to send this to the list but it seems the mailer/webmail had a problem. It is a follow-up on Poul-Henning'sprivate response (I think I had your first name wrong last time, sorry ;-) ) > >I read with much interest your report "FreeBSD's embedded > >agenda" and had a question: did you come to any consensus > >as to which MIPS platform should be used for an initial port? > > Not that I've heard off, but I may not be the best informed > person. Anyone knows of a project where manpower (evening/WE, not full-time) may be needed to raise FreeBSD on a MIPS processor/controller for a first implementation? I would have some spare time for this after July. FPGA design may be involved as I have also experience in this arena: I designed buses like PCI or AMBA. I am based in Chile. Anyone interested, let me know. Cheers Olivier -- Olivier Gautherot olivier@gautherot.net Tel: +56 8 730 9361 Skype: ogautherot From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 17:36:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA79B16A582; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:36:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F80E43D48; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:36:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (0x50a07cfc.naenxx7.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.160.124.252]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC0FA8A002E; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:36:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4PHa95Z003982; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:36:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Andrew Atrens" From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 May 2006 13:30:04 EDT." <4475E99C.5000502@nortel.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:36:09 +0200 Message-ID: <3981.1148578569@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Alexander Leidinger , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:36:21 -0000 In message <4475E99C.5000502@nortel.com>, "Andrew Atrens" writes: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Seems to me you'd want a kernel that could boot off raw >flash and run in RAM off a small RAM disk. > >Said kernel would have a low level driver that makes plain >old flash chips look (and behave) like a disk. It would support >wear-levelling, [...] > >Then you could throw FFS on top of that. This is exactly what you do not want to do. You want to write a flash friendly filesystem which knows what a flash is, and which does the wear levelling internally. The reason Flash Adaptation Layers came about in the first place is that W95 didn't support anything but FAT. Don't propagate that mistake. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 17:57:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E9316B18B; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:57:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ATRENS@nortel.com) Received: from zcars04f.nortel.com (zcars04f.nortel.com [47.129.242.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F5043D8A; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:56:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ATRENS@nortel.com) Received: from zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.99]) by zcars04f.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id k4PHuQS19545; Thu, 25 May 2006 13:56:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.10.2] ([47.128.166.148] RDNS failed) by zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 May 2006 13:56:25 -0400 Message-ID: <4475EFC1.1020504@nortel.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 13:56:17 -0400 From: "Andrew Atrens" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051129) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp References: <3981.1148578569@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <3981.1148578569@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 May 2006 17:56:25.0253 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A34C550:01C68024] Cc: Alexander Leidinger , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:57:18 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <4475E99C.5000502@nortel.com>, "Andrew Atrens" writes: > >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>Hash: SHA1 >> >>Seems to me you'd want a kernel that could boot off raw >>flash and run in RAM off a small RAM disk. >> >>Said kernel would have a low level driver that makes plain >>old flash chips look (and behave) like a disk. It would support >>wear-levelling, [...] >> >>Then you could throw FFS on top of that. > > > This is exactly what you do not want to do. > > You want to write a flash friendly filesystem which knows what > a flash is, and which does the wear levelling internally. > > The reason Flash Adaptation Layers came about in the first place > is that W95 didn't support anything but FAT. Hmm. I was thinking about partitioning the problem actually. Make flash look like a disk and then you can put any filesystem on it that you want. Seems a heck of a lot simpler .. and I'm not sure if I see any drawbacks to doing it that way ... Having said that, it would be great if we had a solid log-structured filesystem for *BSD. Andrew. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEde/B8It2CaCdeMwRAjQUAJ90eJNuU2aJW8UogdMPSC3RTfBwqwCfWdvB lKUuNnxUbyP6LM5vKrdLs2o= =E72s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 18:10:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4D516A606; Thu, 25 May 2006 18:10:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivier@gautherot.net) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77AD743D4C; Thu, 25 May 2006 18:09:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olivier@gautherot.net) Received: from imp2-g19.free.fr (imp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.2]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C567118D; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:09:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: by imp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id 8BF8061A3; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:09:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 200.54.71.227 ([200.54.71.227]) by imp2-g19.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:09:58 +0200 Message-ID: <1148580598.4475f2f677197@imp2-g19.free.fr> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:09:58 +0200 From: Olivier Gautherot To: Andrew Atrens References: <3981.1148578569@critter.freebsd.dk> <4475EFC1.1020504@nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <4475EFC1.1020504@nortel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 200.54.71.227 Cc: Alexander Leidinger , Poul-Henning Kamp , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:10:10 -0000 Hi Andrew! > [...] > > The reason Flash Adaptation Layers came about in the first place > > is that W95 didn't support anything but FAT. > > > Hmm. I was thinking about partitioning the problem actually. Make flash > look like a disk and then you can put any filesystem on it that you > want. Seems a heck of a lot simpler .. and I'm not sure if I see any > drawbacks to doing it that way ... The drawback is the following: what would happen if you had an application opening-writing-closing a file in /var/log on a regular basis? The block would decay with time, with chances that your log even gets corrupted. That's why Flash drivers have to spread write accesses across the device (what FFS doesn't naturally do). Also, there is a constraint regarding the changes allowed: on NAND flash, you can write a 0 on a bit but have to erase the full block to write a 1 back. Don't forget that Flash doesn't suffer from mechanical delays so there is no harm in fragmenting the filesystem: this would be another feature. My cent worth ;-) -- Olivier Gautherot olivier@gautherot.net Tel: +56 8 730 9361 From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 18:38:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3568B16A989; Thu, 25 May 2006 18:38:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ATRENS@nortel.com) Received: from zrtps0kn.nortel.com (zrtps0kn.nortel.com [47.140.192.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A16143D48; Thu, 25 May 2006 18:38:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ATRENS@nortel.com) Received: from zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.99]) by zrtps0kn.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id k4PIbjm22235; Thu, 25 May 2006 14:37:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.10.2] ([47.128.166.148] RDNS failed) by zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 25 May 2006 14:37:35 -0400 Message-ID: <4475F967.5040806@nortel.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:37:27 -0400 From: "Andrew Atrens" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051129) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Olivier Gautherot References: <3981.1148578569@critter.freebsd.dk> <4475EFC1.1020504@nortel.com> <1148580598.4475f2f677197@imp2-g19.free.fr> In-Reply-To: <1148580598.4475f2f677197@imp2-g19.free.fr> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 May 2006 18:37:35.0956 (UTC) FILETIME=[4ADC2140:01C6802A] Cc: Alexander Leidinger , Poul-Henning Kamp , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:38:24 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Olivier, Olivier Gautherot wrote: > Hi Andrew! > > >>[...] >> >>>The reason Flash Adaptation Layers came about in the first place >>>is that W95 didn't support anything but FAT. >> >> >>Hmm. I was thinking about partitioning the problem actually. Make flash >>look like a disk and then you can put any filesystem on it that you >>want. Seems a heck of a lot simpler .. and I'm not sure if I see any >>drawbacks to doing it that way ... > > > The drawback is the following: what would happen if you had an application > opening-writing-closing a file in /var/log on a regular basis? The block > would decay with time, with chances that your log even gets corrupted. > That's why Flash drivers have to spread write accesses across the device > (what FFS doesn't naturally do). Also, there is a constraint regarding > the changes allowed: on NAND flash, you can write a 0 on a bit but have > to erase the full block to write a 1 back. > > Don't forget that Flash doesn't suffer from mechanical delays so there > is no harm in fragmenting the filesystem: this would be another feature. > > My cent worth ;-) Yes, exactly... that's precisely what 'wear-leveling' is meant to do .. I think I mentioned wear-leveling further back in the email chain .. Yes, you definitely want wear-leveling. The debate is whether the filesystem knows about it, versus it being managed by a lower level 'driver'. Andrew. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEdfln8It2CaCdeMwRAo/kAJ0R6Wx5XGXscCaiJPKXcAMH2hfkYwCfeOtL s6pOk3K0jcjboPbO/pPnlSM= =95q/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 18:38:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38EEE16A4CA; Thu, 25 May 2006 18:38:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail01.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail01.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC08443D58; Thu, 25 May 2006 18:38:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c220-239-19-236.belrs4.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.19.236]) by mail01.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k4PIcDOP029013 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 26 May 2006 04:38:13 +1000 Received: from turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4PIcCng003020; Fri, 26 May 2006 04:38:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k4PIcCI5003019; Fri, 26 May 2006 04:38:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 04:38:12 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: Andrew Atrens Message-ID: <20060525183811.GD724@turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <3981.1148578569@critter.freebsd.dk> <4475EFC1.1020504@nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4475EFC1.1020504@nortel.com> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:38:31 -0000 On Thu, 2006-May-25 13:56:17 -0400, Andrew Atrens wrote: >Having said that, it would be great if we had a solid log-structured >filesystem for *BSD. Feel free to resurrect sys/ufs/lfs. -- Peter Jeremy From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 19:02:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C20F616B1E0; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:02:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88E4C43D73; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:02:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (0x50a07cfc.naenxx7.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.160.124.252]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4BBFAC06B; Thu, 25 May 2006 21:02:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4PJ2DXj004351; Thu, 25 May 2006 21:02:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Andrew Atrens" From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 May 2006 13:56:17 EDT." <4475EFC1.1020504@nortel.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 21:02:13 +0200 Message-ID: <4350.1148583733@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Alexander Leidinger , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:02:39 -0000 In message <4475EFC1.1020504@nortel.com>, "Andrew Atrens" writes: >>>Said kernel would have a low level driver that makes plain >>>old flash chips look (and behave) like a disk. It would support >>>wear-levelling, [...] >>> >>>Then you could throw FFS on top of that. >> >> This is exactly what you do not want to do. >> >> You want to write a flash friendly filesystem which knows what >> a flash is, and which does the wear levelling internally. >> >> The reason Flash Adaptation Layers came about in the first place >> is that W95 didn't support anything but FAT. > >Hmm. I was thinking about partitioning the problem actually. Make flash >look like a disk and then you can put any filesystem on it that you >want. Seems a heck of a lot simpler .. and I'm not sure if I see any >drawbacks to doing it that way ... The main one is that the flash adaptation layer does not have the full information to work with for deciding wear-leveling decisions and the filesystem has no idea what the optimal block allocation strategy is for the flash device. Flash devices have no seek time penalty, and therefore the block allocation should focus on wear-leveling rather than seek time optimization. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 19:09:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C6916A807; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:09:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0E543D78; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:08:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (0x50a07cfc.naenxx7.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.160.124.252]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id C04388A0025; Thu, 25 May 2006 21:08:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4PJ8p14004456; Thu, 25 May 2006 21:08:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Peter Jeremy From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 26 May 2006 04:38:12 +1000." <20060525183811.GD724@turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 21:08:51 +0200 Message-ID: <4455.1148584131@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Andrew Atrens , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:09:14 -0000 In message <20060525183811.GD724@turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org>, Peter Jeremy writes: >On Thu, 2006-May-25 13:56:17 -0400, Andrew Atrens wrote: >>Having said that, it would be great if we had a solid log-structured >>filesystem for *BSD. > >Feel free to resurrect sys/ufs/lfs. Uhm, I'd say "don't". The time would be better spent learning from the last 20 years of filesystem work, than to try to resurrect a quick, incomplete and most of all dirty hack. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 19:20:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA5D16B927; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:20:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from mh2.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674A943D90; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:20:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from [10.177.171.220] (neutrino.centtech.com [10.177.171.220]) by mh2.centtech.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k4PJKCiU094288; Thu, 25 May 2006 14:20:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <4476036F.4090302@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:20:15 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060506) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp References: <4350.1148583733@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <4350.1148583733@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.87.1/1484/Thu May 25 10:19:23 2006 on mh2.centtech.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Alexander Leidinger , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:20:31 -0000 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <4475EFC1.1020504@nortel.com>, "Andrew Atrens" writes: > >>>> Said kernel would have a low level driver that makes plain >>>> old flash chips look (and behave) like a disk. It would support >>>> wear-levelling, [...] >>>> >>>> Then you could throw FFS on top of that. >>> This is exactly what you do not want to do. >>> >>> You want to write a flash friendly filesystem which knows what >>> a flash is, and which does the wear levelling internally. >>> >>> The reason Flash Adaptation Layers came about in the first place >>> is that W95 didn't support anything but FAT. >> Hmm. I was thinking about partitioning the problem actually. Make flash >> look like a disk and then you can put any filesystem on it that you >> want. Seems a heck of a lot simpler .. and I'm not sure if I see any >> drawbacks to doing it that way ... > > The main one is that the flash adaptation layer does not have the > full information to work with for deciding wear-leveling decisions > and the filesystem has no idea what the optimal block allocation > strategy is for the flash device. > > Flash devices have no seek time penalty, and therefore the block > allocation should focus on wear-leveling rather than seek time > optimization. > This sounds like an awefuly fun project to me. Is anyone (PHK?) willing to help me with some of the FreeBSD kernel related issues? If so, I'd like to work on this. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Sr. Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Anything that works is better than anything that doesn't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 19:24:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 967FD16B95A; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:24:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB6643D70; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:24:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (0x50a07cfc.naenxx7.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.160.124.252]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15DDF8A005A; Thu, 25 May 2006 21:24:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4PJOjWh004638; Thu, 25 May 2006 21:24:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Eric Anderson From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 May 2006 14:20:15 CDT." <4476036F.4090302@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 21:24:45 +0200 Message-ID: <4637.1148585085@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Alexander Leidinger , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:25:02 -0000 In message <4476036F.4090302@centtech.com>, Eric Anderson writes: >This sounds like an awefuly fun project to me. Is anyone (PHK?) willing >to help me with some of the FreeBSD kernel related issues? If so, I'd >like to work on this. As I said earlier, I'm still constrained by a NDA in this area. It's not rocket science however, so if you sit down and read a couple of flash-chip data-sheets carefully and think about the restrictions and limitations, it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a good design. You can do most of the work in userland in a simulation, and once you have the read/write/erase ratio where you want it, migrate the result to the kernel. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 19:29:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7A4B16AAC2; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:29:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivier@gautherot.net) Received: from smtp4-g19.free.fr (smtp4-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CA3543D66; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:29:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olivier@gautherot.net) Received: from imp2-g19.free.fr (imp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.2]) by smtp4-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C5C549EB; Thu, 25 May 2006 21:29:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: by imp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id 5317D603F; Thu, 25 May 2006 21:29:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 200.54.71.227 ([200.54.71.227]) by imp2-g19.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 21:29:24 +0200 Message-ID: <1148585364.447605943e3e1@imp2-g19.free.fr> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 21:29:24 +0200 From: Olivier Gautherot To: Andrew Atrens References: <3981.1148578569@critter.freebsd.dk> <4475EFC1.1020504@nortel.com> <1148580598.4475f2f677197@imp2-g19.free.fr> <4475F967.5040806@nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <4475F967.5040806@nortel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 200.54.71.227 Cc: Alexander Leidinger , Poul-Henning Kamp , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:29:41 -0000 Hi Andrew! > Yes, exactly... that's precisely what 'wear-leveling' is meant to do .. > > I think I mentioned wear-leveling further back in the email chain .. You did indeed mention it. > Yes, you definitely want wear-leveling. The debate is whether the > filesystem knows about it, versus it being managed by a lower level > 'driver'. If I were told to start the design now, I would advocate to keep all Flash-specific features in a low-level driver and let the filesystem take care of upper concepts. After all, the cylinder concept of a spinning disk does not always match the physical structure so we could follow the same logic. By Flash-specific features, I mean: - Erased bits set to 1 (that's another constraint, common to NAND and NOR, you can't write a 1 on a 0) - Seek time of 0 - Wear-leveling - Garbage collection For the filesystem, we could think of a standard one - why reinvent the wheel when FreeBSD already has a good one that could be used, possibly with a few tweaks? Unless we want to plug compression in, what could be helpful and is sometimes desired. Just a tought -- Olivier Gautherot olivier@gautherot.net Tel: +56 8 730 9361 From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 19:55:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71C816BE50; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:55:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D19343D64; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:55:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (0x50a07cfc.naenxx7.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.160.124.252]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30B58FAC045; Thu, 25 May 2006 21:55:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4PJtqjR004785; Thu, 25 May 2006 21:55:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Olivier Gautherot From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 May 2006 21:29:24 +0200." <1148585364.447605943e3e1@imp2-g19.free.fr> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 21:55:52 +0200 Message-ID: <4784.1148586952@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Alexander Leidinger , Andrew Atrens , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:56:12 -0000 In message <1148585364.447605943e3e1@imp2-g19.free.fr>, Olivier Gautherot write s: >For the filesystem, we could think of a standard one - why reinvent the wheel >when FreeBSD already has a good one that could be used, possibly with a few >tweaks? "The adequate has always been the worst enemy of excellence" Remember, it's: "FreeBSD, the best damn UNIX around", not "FreeBSD: Yet Another Mediocre UNIX". -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 20:07:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A4DF16C007; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:07:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0D7E43D55; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:07:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [IPv6:::1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4PK6omG036748; Thu, 25 May 2006 14:06:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:06:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20060525.140651.-1844001833.imp@bsdimp.com> To: kudzu@tenebras.com From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <4475CD42.2010509@tenebras.com> References: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> <4475CD42.2010509@tenebras.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 4.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: phk@phk.freebsd.dk, small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:07:24 -0000 In message: <4475CD42.2010509@tenebras.com> Michael Sierchio writes: : Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: : : > For smaller systems, an additive approach would make more sense : : Amen. For larger systems, too, IMHO. I've been saying this for : years, but even those things which we think of as necessary for : most installs (MTA, DNS, toolchain) should be packages. We use the additiv approach at work. That which you do not include is omitted. Doable, but keeping the dependency lists accurate since we originally did this work for 3.2 has been the biggest issue... Warner From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 20:07:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A3F16C030; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:07:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC3143D46; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:07:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [IPv6:::1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4PK5iQb036745; Thu, 25 May 2006 14:05:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:05:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20060525.140544.1474621433.imp@bsdimp.com> To: jim@netgate.com From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <472414CE-94E8-4C8A-9586-DCA9E02A53C3@netgate.com> References: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> <472414CE-94E8-4C8A-9586-DCA9E02A53C3@netgate.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 4.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: phk@phk.freebsd.dk, small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:07:49 -0000 In message: <472414CE-94E8-4C8A-9586-DCA9E02A53C3@netgate.com> Jim Thompson writes: : : On May 25, 2006, at 1:24 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: : : > Platforms : > --------- : > : > I386 goes without saying. : > : > AMD64 may have an embedded future in the high end segment, keeping : > it "unbloated" is a concern. : > : > ARM is going great according to Jean-Mark and Warner, and we are : > looking for a cheap (< $200) reference platform to point people at. : : These are available. Someone else was asking (privately) for sub- : $100, which is (much) more difficult. There's many sub $100 MIPS boards available that have enough resourses, barely, for a minimal system to boot/run on. : > NanoBSD caters only to the "run read-only from flash" area, call : > it if you will the "soekris" area. I need to investigate if it : > makes sense to use the FreeSBIE framework to build nanobsd images. : : All soekris boards have CF, which looks, for all the world like an : IDE drive. : : "real" flash is quite different. Soekris (and the PC Engines : boards) are a proper subset of i386, and : should be treated as such. Yes. Running off a real flash is much more difficult... : > What can you do ? : > : > If you work with embedded FreeBSD, I think the best you can do is to : > chime in to small@freebsd.org, tell us what you are doing (as far as : > company policy will allow you), and if you have any ideas, wishes, : > problems, let us hear about them. : : I'm looking for the time to get FreeBSD running on the Gateworks : Xscale (arm) boards. These are interesting to me for a couple : reasons, but the : most important is that most of the boards come with a CF socket, : which means not having to deal with smaller flash sizes, and/or : dealing with a FFS : at the FreeBSD level (for now). Those would be a good level to start from. Subsetting is a pain during development, but once developed, it shouldn't be too hard to shrink things down. Doing it generally might be an issue... Warner From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 20:08:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC38516BF97; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:08:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from smtp-vbr3.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr3.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFE1C43D53; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:08:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [213.84.32.253]) by smtp-vbr3.xs4all.nl (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4PK8lfm018646; Thu, 25 May 2006 22:08:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.13.6/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k4PK8k6V002810; Thu, 25 May 2006 22:08:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k4PK8kcK002809; Thu, 25 May 2006 22:08:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wb) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:08:46 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20060525200846.GA2796@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <1148585364.447605943e3e1@imp2-g19.free.fr> <4784.1148586952@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4784.1148586952@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Cc: current@freebsd.org, Alexander Leidinger , Andrew Atrens , small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:09:04 -0000 On Thu, May 25, 2006 at 09:55:52PM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote.. > In message <1148585364.447605943e3e1@imp2-g19.free.fr>, Olivier Gautherot write > s: > > >For the filesystem, we could think of a standard one - why reinvent the wheel > >when FreeBSD already has a good one that could be used, possibly with a few > >tweaks? > > "The adequate has always been the worst enemy of excellence" Or worse still "it works/it is cheap" which appears to be todays slogan. > Remember, it's: "FreeBSD, the best damn UNIX around", not "FreeBSD: > Yet Another Mediocre UNIX". Make that UNIX-like or TOG will be on your back. Another one of these modern times 'achievements'. -- Wilko Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 20:10:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3736316C030; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:10:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37B7D43D7F; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:10:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [IPv6:::1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4PKABMf036775; Thu, 25 May 2006 14:10:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:10:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20060525.141012.1683993116.imp@bsdimp.com> To: olivier@gautherot.net From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <1148580598.4475f2f677197@imp2-g19.free.fr> References: <3981.1148578569@critter.freebsd.dk> <4475EFC1.1020504@nortel.com> <1148580598.4475f2f677197@imp2-g19.free.fr> X-Mailer: Mew version 4.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Alexander@Leidinger.net, phk@phk.freebsd.dk, atrens@nortel.com, small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:10:51 -0000 In message: <1148580598.4475f2f677197@imp2-g19.free.fr> Olivier Gautherot writes: : Hi Andrew! : : > [...] : > > The reason Flash Adaptation Layers came about in the first place : > > is that W95 didn't support anything but FAT. : > : > : > Hmm. I was thinking about partitioning the problem actually. Make flash : > look like a disk and then you can put any filesystem on it that you : > want. Seems a heck of a lot simpler .. and I'm not sure if I see any : > drawbacks to doing it that way ... : : The drawback is the following: what would happen if you had an application : opening-writing-closing a file in /var/log on a regular basis? The block : would decay with time, with chances that your log even gets corrupted. : That's why Flash drivers have to spread write accesses across the device : (what FFS doesn't naturally do). Also, there is a constraint regarding : the changes allowed: on NAND flash, you can write a 0 on a bit but have : to erase the full block to write a 1 back. : : Don't forget that Flash doesn't suffer from mechanical delays so there : is no harm in fragmenting the filesystem: this would be another feature. There's at least one implementation of a geom_nand layer that tries to wear average blocks from a pool it keeps. However, it would be far better if it could get hints from the file system layer when blocks were freed. Once you get to that level of abstraction, you might as well just do all the work yourself. It gets kinda hairy to do it generically for any filesystem. Warner From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 20:12:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A16D16B642; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:12:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from mh1.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794F443D4C; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:12:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from [10.177.171.220] (neutrino.centtech.com [10.177.171.220]) by mh1.centtech.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k4PKCoeM020869; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:12:51 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <44760FC6.9080906@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 15:12:54 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (X11/20060506) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp References: <4637.1148585085@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <4637.1148585085@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.87.1/1484/Thu May 25 10:19:23 2006 on mh1.centtech.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Alexander Leidinger , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:13:05 -0000 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <4476036F.4090302@centtech.com>, Eric Anderson writes: > >> This sounds like an awefuly fun project to me. Is anyone (PHK?) willing >> to help me with some of the FreeBSD kernel related issues? If so, I'd >> like to work on this. > > As I said earlier, I'm still constrained by a NDA in this area. Being filesystems, or flash, or both? > It's not rocket science however, so if you sit down and read a couple > of flash-chip data-sheets carefully and think about the restrictions > and limitations, it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a good design. A pointer to a decent commonly used flash chip would help, although I'm sure I can find something with enough time plus google. > You can do most of the work in userland in a simulation, and once you > have the read/write/erase ratio where you want it, migrate the result > to the kernel. Good point.. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Sr. Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Anything that works is better than anything that doesn't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 20:13:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA3916B985; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:13:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE89D43D78; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:13:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [IPv6:::1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4PKBY3G036813; Thu, 25 May 2006 14:11:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:11:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20060525.141134.221855237.imp@bsdimp.com> To: anderson@centtech.com From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <4476036F.4090302@centtech.com> References: <4350.1148583733@critter.freebsd.dk> <4476036F.4090302@centtech.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 4.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Alexander@Leidinger.net, phk@phk.freebsd.dk, small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:13:38 -0000 In message: <4476036F.4090302@centtech.com> Eric Anderson writes: : Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: : > In message <4475EFC1.1020504@nortel.com>, "Andrew Atrens" writes: : > : >>>> Said kernel would have a low level driver that makes plain : >>>> old flash chips look (and behave) like a disk. It would support : >>>> wear-levelling, [...] : >>>> : >>>> Then you could throw FFS on top of that. : >>> This is exactly what you do not want to do. : >>> : >>> You want to write a flash friendly filesystem which knows what : >>> a flash is, and which does the wear levelling internally. : >>> : >>> The reason Flash Adaptation Layers came about in the first place : >>> is that W95 didn't support anything but FAT. : >> Hmm. I was thinking about partitioning the problem actually. Make flash : >> look like a disk and then you can put any filesystem on it that you : >> want. Seems a heck of a lot simpler .. and I'm not sure if I see any : >> drawbacks to doing it that way ... : > : > The main one is that the flash adaptation layer does not have the : > full information to work with for deciding wear-leveling decisions : > and the filesystem has no idea what the optimal block allocation : > strategy is for the flash device. : > : > Flash devices have no seek time penalty, and therefore the block : > allocation should focus on wear-leveling rather than seek time : > optimization. : > : : This sounds like an awefuly fun project to me. Is anyone (PHK?) willing : to help me with some of the FreeBSD kernel related issues? If so, I'd : like to work on this. I can help. I don't suffer from the NDA issues that phk has. Warner From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 20:29:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A53D816BFD2 for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:29:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bkelly@vadev.org) Received: from mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B0C43D5A for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 20:28:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bkelly@vadev.org) Received: (qmail 452 invoked from network); 25 May 2006 20:28:59 -0000 Received: from vadev.org (HELO [192.168.1.97]) (Desdicardo@[66.92.166.151]) (envelope-sender ) by mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with RC4-MD5 encrypted SMTP for ; 25 May 2006 20:28:59 -0000 From: Ben Kelly To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:28:58 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.3 References: <3500.1148571492@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <3500.1148571492@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-6" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200605251628.58158.bkelly@vadev.org> Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:29:06 -0000 On Thursday 25 May 2006 11:38 am, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > Writing a flash-friendly-filesystem would be a good project. Would it be reasonable to try porting JFFS2 or are their reasons to write something from scratch? - Ben From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 22:41:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4809916AE83; Thu, 25 May 2006 22:38:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Received: from igloo.linux.gr (igloo.linux.gr [62.1.205.36]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8003043D5D; Thu, 25 May 2006 22:37:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Received: from gothmog.pc (host5.bedc.ondsl.gr [62.103.39.229]) (authenticated bits=128) by igloo.linux.gr (8.13.6/8.13.6/Debian-1) with ESMTP id k4PMbC6A013911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 26 May 2006 01:37:16 +0300 Received: from gothmog.pc (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.pc (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4PMdNGJ022200; Fri, 26 May 2006 01:39:23 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.pc (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k4PMdKqO022199; Fri, 26 May 2006 01:39:20 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 01:39:20 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Daniel Gerzo Message-ID: <20060525223920.GA22124@gothmog.pc> References: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> <4475BB2D.2090609@freesbie.org> <858280256.20060525164703@rulez.sk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <858280256.20060525164703@rulez.sk> X-Hellug-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Hellug-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.044, required 5, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -1.80, AWL 0.35, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-Hellug-MailScanner-From: keramida@freebsd.org X-Spam-Status: No Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , small@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:41:15 -0000 On 2006-05-25 16:47, Daniel Gerzo wrote: >Thursday, May 25, 2006, 4:11:57 PM, you wrote the following: >> Agree. I can write some HOWTOs about FreeSBIE or NanoBSD if it is >> needed. We only have a very primordial wiki documentation at >> wiki.freesbie.org. > > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/nanobsd/ > > If you have any more information that should be included, just write > me an mail and we can work it out :-) Good point. Count me in for doc-stuff help if changes start coming my way :) From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 22:52:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC60F16A9AB for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 22:49:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB6BB43D53 for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 22:49:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x29so106626nfb for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:49:37 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=O0PtvXtCH4iDec/z+gDJKOIbJviwADSUzwhc2A5lrCEB7JQTs2qpf5NSHZyCU6H9jqKw7Q4FvKG/FWaT/W/v0AMRC+MhQA25lD1QKXtD6iKuY6aWu5Q4Q1ti6Dp611VvUlid0nL+fATzw65gmpVzcjqP1g8WF0aGsD5lqgW6i+o= Received: by 10.49.78.6 with SMTP id f6mr7091151nfl; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.49.17 with HTTP; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9f7850090605251549h13808911k47b04f61d283bee0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 15:49:36 -0700 From: "marty fouts" To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> Cc: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:53:02 -0000 On 5/25/06, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > ARM is going great according to Jean-Mark and Warner, and we are > looking for a cheap (< $200) reference platform to point people at. > I'd recommend the Technologic Systems TS7200 or TS7250. See: http://www.embeddedarm.com/epc/ts7200-spec-h.html From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 23:01:20 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1494816B4D8 for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 22:59:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68E9D43D48 for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 22:59:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id i2so48859nfe for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:59:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=NLhUeityK4qSv2DO/tGek6ZdCwvD93JUEj5BtjgvzJkb6eb/e+S12HCXGU75X2DX9+dS1QEmkcJDDxUxviBXvCYz/IkFEuniYsN/FaHqL74N1T+EJHfCax5P8jEvoEewH52hg7JGZwUwk2ujtLju+PMKae2Te3V33Q4VHbiTxgI= Received: by 10.48.234.14 with SMTP id g14mr1680455nfh; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.49.17 with HTTP; Thu, 25 May 2006 15:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9f7850090605251559g5e3802e1u23180bd823d28a3b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 15:59:14 -0700 From: "marty fouts" To: "Ben Kelly" In-Reply-To: <200605251628.58158.bkelly@vadev.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <3500.1148571492@critter.freebsd.dk> <200605251628.58158.bkelly@vadev.org> Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 23:01:21 -0000 On 5/25/06, Ben Kelly wrote: > On Thursday 25 May 2006 11:38 am, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > Writing a flash-friendly-filesystem would be a good project. > > Would it be reasonable to try porting JFFS2 or are their reasons to write > something from scratch? > JFFS2 is ok for NOR flash, but has terrible performance problems on NAND flash, that seem to grow exponentially with the size of the flash. I'd recommend not basing a design on it. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 23:02:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF2316B4E3; Thu, 25 May 2006 22:59:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CE5843D46; Thu, 25 May 2006 22:59:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk ([158.152.96.124] helo=thor) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1FjOnS-0006ug-H6; Thu, 25 May 2006 22:59:14 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by thor ([127.0.0.1] running VPOP3) with SMTP; Thu, 25 May 2006 23:55:22 +0100 From: "James Mansion" To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" , , Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 23:55:20 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0k - Registered Cc: Subject: RE: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 23:02:38 -0000 >FreeBSD is a great operating system for embedded use and people >all over the world use this to their advantage. This is really nice to see. I'd also urge you to widen it to a more general 'customised constrained boot environment' though, even if teh focus is quite different. The sort of thing I'd be interested in would be PXE-booting a 'bootstrap system' with minimalist facilities, then mounting drives from iSCSI (or NFS, CIFS etc) and extending to have a more complete but still highly customised environment, whether to support compute blades or diskless workstations (using the wonderful nVidia and ATI hardware support that Linux will by then lack, ha ha ;-)). Its this first stage where you can get up and running that I think might share some of the same issues. James From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 23:29:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBAF16A63D; Thu, 25 May 2006 23:29:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7833143D46; Thu, 25 May 2006 23:29:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk ([158.152.96.124] helo=thor) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1FjPGU-000AKi-If; Thu, 25 May 2006 23:29:15 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by thor ([127.0.0.1] running VPOP3) with SMTP; Fri, 26 May 2006 00:03:54 +0100 From: "James Mansion" To: "Andrew Atrens" , "Poul-Henning Kamp" Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 00:03:53 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <4475E99C.5000502@nortel.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0k - Registered Cc: Alexander Leidinger , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 23:29:17 -0000 > It would support wear-levelling I think this might in practice be a red-herring. If you could convince the system to set aside an amount of RAM for dirty disk buffers and to write them all when its filled or on application demand (and in a way that preseves integrity like soft updates) so that for any given flush each sector is written at most once, then you can run for years for most CF cards and most practical usage patterns that don't really demand a hard disk. Assume you have cron drive a flush once an hour and consider how long until a sector dies, even if the drive itself does no wear levelling at all (and I believe some do it internally). From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 25 23:29:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2690816A5B4 for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 23:29:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@netxsecure.net) Received: from fep06.xtra.co.nz (fep06.xtra.co.nz [210.54.141.240]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 826BC43D55 for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 23:29:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mike@netxsecure.net) Received: from netxsecure.net ([210.55.151.233]) by fep06.xtra.co.nz with ESMTP id <20060525232955.DVKH26685.fep06.xtra.co.nz@netxsecure.net> for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 11:29:55 +1200 Sender: mike Message-ID: <44763F6C.5C97B8CF@netxsecure.net> Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:36:12 +1200 From: "Michael A. Williams" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: small@freebsd.org References: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michael Williams List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 23:30:00 -0000 Hi There, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: ... > What can you do ? > > If you work with embedded FreeBSD, I think the best you can do is to > chime in to small@freebsd.org, tell us what you are doing (as far as > company policy will allow you), and if you have any ideas, wishes, > problems, let us hear about them. We use NanoBSD on Soekris with CF media and find the 'subtractive' aproach followed by customise scripts does a lot of the work for us, we then add from port built packages along with our own stuff on top. Doing this before Nano was a lot of work each time we wanted to move OS revision's. First we only used the single Nano image along with other partitions of our own choosing with updates applied through the file system which has worked well but is not as good as using the dual Nano image which we are now moving to, giving two update levels, either of the two Nano images and per file. Having no moving parts is so useful in the harsher environments where our systems end up and we are pretty happy with Nano+Soekris. A smaller footprint Arm system is likely to be an area we would be interested in now to give us a lower end product, for scaling up the other way we still use an altered Nano on a CF card adpater in a PC chassis base unit to get the extra clock cycles and memory required. To get our packages on we run the Nano built image up on an hdd, install the packages along with our custom configs and our own stuff and then dd that back to an image server with the result's dd out to CF, I sure there may be an easier way but this works for us. > It would be great if we could park a couple of developers full time > on embedded FreeBSD in the future, but that would take some serious > financial support from the user community, if you think your company > could be persuaded to help with this, get in touch with the FreeBSD > foundation. As soon as we get into profit on our project :) we would like to help in some way and are very thankful for such a high quality FreeBSD. Mike. -- Michael A. Williams Director NetXsecure NZ Ltd & Billing Solutions Ltd Ph: +64.3.317.9425 Fax: +64.3.317.9426 Mob: +64.21.995.914 www.nxs.co.nz www.billingsolutionsltd.co.nz skype: mike_netxsecure From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 02:32:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F40016A8EC; Fri, 26 May 2006 02:32:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from netgate.com (mail.netgate.com [64.62.194.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 649EF43D4C; Fri, 26 May 2006 02:32:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from [192.168.2.184] (rrcs-67-52-77-54.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.77.54]) by netgate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CDF7280073; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:32:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2EFA38F2-77CE-429D-A9DE-9E764EEAA8CB@netgate.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Thompson Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:32:46 -1000 To: "James Mansion" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Cc: Alexander Leidinger , Poul-Henning Kamp , Andrew Atrens , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 02:32:52 -0000 On May 25, 2006, at 1:03 PM, James Mansion wrote: >> It would support wear-levelling > > I think this might in practice be a red-herring. If you're assuming CF, possibly. If you're assuming a lower level flash interface, no. > If you could convince the system to set aside an amount > of RAM for dirty disk buffers and to write them all when > its filled or on application demand (and in a way that > preseves integrity like soft updates) so that for any > given flush each sector is written at most once, then > you can run for years for most CF cards and most practical > usage patterns that don't really demand a hard disk. embedded systems are constrained in memory size, too. > Assume you have cron drive a flush once an hour and > consider how long until a sector dies, even if the drive > itself does no wear levelling at all (and I believe some > do it internally). internal wear-leveling CF: yes otherwise: not typically. Might want to re-think your argument in terms of a system with 32MB of ram and 4MB of NAND or NOR flash. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 02:37:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC06316A75B; Fri, 26 May 2006 02:37:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from netgate.com (mail.netgate.com [64.62.194.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9937143D70; Fri, 26 May 2006 02:37:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from [192.168.2.184] (rrcs-67-52-77-54.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.77.54]) by netgate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 818E3280073; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:37:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <200605251628.58158.bkelly@vadev.org> References: <3500.1148571492@critter.freebsd.dk> <200605251628.58158.bkelly@vadev.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9453AA8E-B50B-4BF4-91F2-1AC5538FC6E6@netgate.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Thompson Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:37:46 -1000 To: Ben Kelly X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 02:37:55 -0000 On May 25, 2006, at 10:28 AM, Ben Kelly wrote: > On Thursday 25 May 2006 11:38 am, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> Writing a flash-friendly-filesystem would be a good project. > > Would it be reasonable to try porting JFFS2 or are their reasons to > write > something from scratch? some people have concerns about the performance of JFFS2 on large flash devices (> 16MB). Frankly, if supporting large flash devices (or arrays) is an issue, then perhaps the wear-leveling intermediate layer with a standard filesystem on top is a better approach. The real issue with porting JFFS2 is that its covered by the GPL, and putting GPL code in the FreeBSD kernel is typically considered a 'no- no'. Still, the embedded linux folks get a >TON< of milage out of MTD+JFFS2. Nobody has brought up supporting non-Freesbie bootloaders, either. Many boards use redboot, u-boot or one of the MIPS loaders to get going. Getting these to boot FreeBSD will also be part of any solution. I don't think its practical to port Freesbie to any new board, not in the short-to-medium timeframe, either. Jim From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 02:40:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D5116AA83; Fri, 26 May 2006 02:40:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from netgate.com (mail.netgate.com [64.62.194.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E30F443D55; Fri, 26 May 2006 02:40:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from [192.168.2.184] (rrcs-67-52-77-54.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.77.54]) by netgate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7733280073; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:40:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20060525200846.GA2796@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <1148585364.447605943e3e1@imp2-g19.free.fr> <4784.1148586952@critter.freebsd.dk> <20060525200846.GA2796@freebie.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Thompson Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:40:53 -1000 To: Wilko Bulte X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Cc: Alexander Leidinger , Poul-Henning Kamp , Andrew Atrens , current@freebsd.org, small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 02:41:00 -0000 On May 25, 2006, at 10:08 AM, Wilko Bulte wrote: > On Thu, May 25, 2006 at 09:55:52PM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote.. >> In message <1148585364.447605943e3e1@imp2-g19.free.fr>, Olivier >> Gautherot write >> s: >> >>> For the filesystem, we could think of a standard one - why >>> reinvent the wheel >>> when FreeBSD already has a good one that could be used, possibly >>> with a few >>> tweaks? >> >> "The adequate has always been the worst enemy of excellence" > > Or worse still "it works/it is cheap" which appears to be todays > slogan. Its "Worse is better", and its been around for over a decade. http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html http://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html >> Remember, it's: "FreeBSD, the best damn UNIX around", not "FreeBSD: >> Yet Another Mediocre UNIX". > > Make that UNIX-like or TOG will be on your back. Another one of these > modern times 'achievements'. eh? FreeBSD >is< (a) Unix. (Linux is not.) From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 02:50:55 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6073816A4D2; Fri, 26 May 2006 02:50:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from netgate.com (mail.netgate.com [64.62.194.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF4F43D46; Fri, 26 May 2006 02:50:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from [192.168.2.184] (rrcs-67-52-77-54.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.77.54]) by netgate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20DBB280073; Thu, 25 May 2006 19:50:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20060525.141012.1683993116.imp@bsdimp.com> References: <3981.1148578569@critter.freebsd.dk> <4475EFC1.1020504@nortel.com> <1148580598.4475f2f677197@imp2-g19.free.fr> <20060525.141012.1683993116.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3BEB3B54-4CAD-477D-B88C-AB32584B7A47@netgate.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Thompson Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:50:49 -1000 To: "M. Warner Losh" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Cc: atrens@nortel.com, current@freebsd.org, phk@phk.freebsd.dk, Alexander@Leidinger.net, small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 02:50:57 -0000 On May 25, 2006, at 10:10 AM, M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <1148580598.4475f2f677197@imp2-g19.free.fr> > Olivier Gautherot writes: > : Hi Andrew! > : > : > [...] > : > > The reason Flash Adaptation Layers came about in the first place > : > > is that W95 didn't support anything but FAT. > : > > : > > : > Hmm. I was thinking about partitioning the problem actually. > Make flash > : > look like a disk and then you can put any filesystem on it that > you > : > want. Seems a heck of a lot simpler .. and I'm not sure if I > see any > : > drawbacks to doing it that way ... > : > : The drawback is the following: what would happen if you had an > application > : opening-writing-closing a file in /var/log on a regular basis? > The block > : would decay with time, with chances that your log even gets > corrupted. its much worse than you present. superblocks, directory inodes for /var/log, inodes (never mind the blocks for the file) for /var/log/foo (mod/access time updates), etc. > : That's why Flash drivers have to spread write accesses across the > device > : (what FFS doesn't naturally do). Also, there is a constraint > regarding > : the changes allowed: on NAND flash, you can write a 0 on a bit > but have > : to erase the full block to write a 1 back. > : > : Don't forget that Flash doesn't suffer from mechanical delays so > there > : is no harm in fragmenting the filesystem: this would be another > feature. though erasing a sector (for NAND flash) is a relatively slow operation. > There's at least one implementation of a geom_nand layer that tries to > wear average blocks from a pool it keeps. However, it would be far > better if it could get hints from the file system layer when blocks > were freed. Once you get to that level of abstraction, you might as > well just do all the work yourself. It gets kinda hairy to do it > generically for any filesystem. One problem with allowing excess fragmentation is that you might not be able to find a larger contiguous set of sectors, if your file/filesystem geometry requires same. This is why JFFS2 does GC. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 03:26:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1720E16A9D5; Fri, 26 May 2006 03:26:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ogautherot@vtr.net) Received: from lp01.vtr.net (relay.vtr.net [200.83.1.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CB9543D46; Fri, 26 May 2006 03:26:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ogautherot@vtr.net) Received: from [192.168.10.3] (200.83.72.22) by lp01.vtr.net (7.1.026) (authenticated as ogautherot) id 447403690001A790; Thu, 25 May 2006 23:26:46 -0400 From: Olivier Gautherot To: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 23:24:50 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200605252324.52346.ogautherot@vtr.net> Cc: ralbab@gmail.com Subject: Embedded file system X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: olivier@gautherot.net List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 03:26:52 -0000 Hi folks! First of all, sorry for cross-posting but I think it may be of interest to both groups: small@ as the ultimate target and current@ for their experience. After todays discussion, I've tried to summarize the comments to come up with some requirements - I've put up some more titles for additional items but, in the short term, I would like to ensure that the direction is correct and, hopefully, define it better yet. The idea is to define what the technology can or can't do before we organize the FS. I mean to help design a FS for a known target and not design for fun and, only then, look desperately for an application ;-) V 0.0 of the draft is at: http://mlagy.free.fr/POFS.pdf . This doc is really meant as a base for discussion, nothing else yet. Poul-Henning, you're welcome to raise a big binary red flag (i.e. ***NO*** :-) ) if you see something wrong ;-) When we come to a consensus, I can load it up on the "idea" page. Happy reading -- Olivier Gautherot olivier@gautherot.net From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 04:04:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF19616A72E for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 04:04:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bkelly@vadev.org) Received: from mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314D243D55 for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 04:04:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bkelly@vadev.org) Received: (qmail 6980 invoked from network); 26 May 2006 04:04:49 -0000 Received: from vadev.org (HELO [192.168.1.200]) (Desdicardo@[66.92.166.151]) (envelope-sender ) by mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 26 May 2006 04:04:48 -0000 Message-ID: <44767E5E.3080306@vadev.org> Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 00:04:46 -0400 From: Ben Kelly User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Macintosh/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Thompson References: <3500.1148571492@critter.freebsd.dk> <200605251628.58158.bkelly@vadev.org> <9453AA8E-B50B-4BF4-91F2-1AC5538FC6E6@netgate.com> In-Reply-To: <9453AA8E-B50B-4BF4-91F2-1AC5538FC6E6@netgate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 04:04:52 -0000 Jim Thompson wrote: > The real issue with porting JFFS2 is that its covered by the GPL, and > putting GPL code in the FreeBSD kernel is typically considered a 'no-no'. Couldn't this be handled in the same way as the ext2 and reiserfs file systems? > Jim Thanks. - Ben From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 07:22:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1C0A16A640; Fri, 26 May 2006 07:22:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail24.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail24.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.133.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F03C143D48; Fri, 26 May 2006 07:21:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c220-239-19-236.belrs4.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.19.236]) by mail24.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k4Q7LuZe021777 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 26 May 2006 17:21:57 +1000 Received: from turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4Q7LuG6000835; Fri, 26 May 2006 17:21:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k4Q7LtrJ000834; Fri, 26 May 2006 17:21:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:21:55 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: Jim Thompson Message-ID: <20060526072155.GA744@turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <1148585364.447605943e3e1@imp2-g19.free.fr> <4784.1148586952@critter.freebsd.dk> <20060525200846.GA2796@freebie.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: current@freebsd.org, small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 07:22:02 -0000 On Thu, 2006-May-25 16:40:53 -1000, Jim Thompson wrote: >>Make that UNIX-like or TOG will be on your back. Another one of these >>modern times 'achievements'. > >eh? FreeBSD >is< (a) Unix. (Linux is not.) FreeBSD has not gone through the TOG hoops necessary to legally brand itself as Unix. Even in heritage terms, by the terms of the AT&T vs UC lawsuit, Lite-2 (and hence FreeBSD) contains no AT&T code and is therefore not Unix. -- Peter Jeremy From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 07:29:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521C416A539; Fri, 26 May 2006 07:29:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from mail22.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail22.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.133.160]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A768643D58; Fri, 26 May 2006 07:29:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c220-239-19-236.belrs4.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.19.236]) by mail22.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k4Q7TNAE015838 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 26 May 2006 17:29:24 +1000 Received: from turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4Q7TNUW000862; Fri, 26 May 2006 17:29:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.13.6/8.13.6/Submit) id k4Q7TMht000861; Fri, 26 May 2006 17:29:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:29:22 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: Ben Kelly Message-ID: <20060526072922.GB744@turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <3500.1148571492@critter.freebsd.dk> <200605251628.58158.bkelly@vadev.org> <9453AA8E-B50B-4BF4-91F2-1AC5538FC6E6@netgate.com> <44767E5E.3080306@vadev.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44767E5E.3080306@vadev.org> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 07:29:28 -0000 On Fri, 2006-May-26 00:04:46 -0400, Ben Kelly wrote: >Jim Thompson wrote: >>The real issue with porting JFFS2 is that its covered by the GPL, and >>putting GPL code in the FreeBSD kernel is typically considered a 'no-no'. > >Couldn't this be handled in the same way as the ext2 and reiserfs file >systems? The viral aspects of the GPL is a far bigger issue for embedded devices than a desktop workstation. Your embedded widget won't need/have the userland GPL tools, ext2 or ReiserFS but can't survive without a FS of some sort. -- Peter Jeremy From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 07:45:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F134216A428; Fri, 26 May 2006 07:45:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yar@comp.chem.msu.su) Received: from comp.chem.msu.su (comp.chem.msu.su [158.250.32.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B27A43D55; Fri, 26 May 2006 07:45:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from yar@comp.chem.msu.su) Received: from comp.chem.msu.su (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by comp.chem.msu.su (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k4Q7jfbA048605; Fri, 26 May 2006 11:45:41 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from yar@comp.chem.msu.su) Received: (from yar@localhost) by comp.chem.msu.su (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) id k4Q7jeEr048604; Fri, 26 May 2006 11:45:41 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from yar) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:45:40 +0400 From: Yar Tikhiy To: Peter Jeremy Message-ID: <20060526074540.GB47499@comp.chem.msu.su> References: <1148585364.447605943e3e1@imp2-g19.free.fr> <4784.1148586952@critter.freebsd.dk> <20060525200846.GA2796@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20060526072155.GA744@turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060526072155.GA744@turion.vk2pj.dyndns.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Cc: current@freebsd.org, small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 07:45:45 -0000 On Fri, May 26, 2006 at 05:21:55PM +1000, Peter Jeremy wrote: > On Thu, 2006-May-25 16:40:53 -1000, Jim Thompson wrote: > >>Make that UNIX-like or TOG will be on your back. Another one of these > >>modern times 'achievements'. > > > >eh? FreeBSD >is< (a) Unix. (Linux is not.) > > FreeBSD has not gone through the TOG hoops necessary to legally brand > itself as Unix. Even in heritage terms, by the terms of the AT&T vs > UC lawsuit, Lite-2 (and hence FreeBSD) contains no AT&T code and is > therefore not Unix. Let's say that *BSD have outgrown Unix while Linux has never grown into it. So we'll at once a) hint the audience at our noble roots, b) pretend we aren't limited by design decisions from the Iron Age of computing, and c) taunt Linux ;-) -- Yar From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 07:49:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4409F16A49A; Fri, 26 May 2006 07:49:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from saturnero@freesbie.org) Received: from out.alice.it (smtp-out01.alice.it [85.33.2.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58EE843D55; Fri, 26 May 2006 07:49:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from saturnero@freesbie.org) Received: from FBCMMO01.fbc.local ([192.168.68.195]) by out.alice.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 26 May 2006 09:49:05 +0200 Received: from client.alice.it ([192.168.68.137]) by FBCMMO01.fbc.local with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 26 May 2006 09:49:04 +0200 Received: from [192.168.99.16] ([87.5.150.129]) by client.alice.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 26 May 2006 09:49:04 +0200 Message-ID: <4476B2DC.6080105@freesbie.org> Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 09:48:44 +0200 From: Dario Freni User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Macintosh/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Thompson References: <3500.1148571492@critter.freebsd.dk> <200605251628.58158.bkelly@vadev.org> <9453AA8E-B50B-4BF4-91F2-1AC5538FC6E6@netgate.com> In-Reply-To: <9453AA8E-B50B-4BF4-91F2-1AC5538FC6E6@netgate.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saturnero.net/saturnero.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig910DC26DB4CB9D183DEEDB71" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 May 2006 07:49:04.0255 (UTC) FILETIME=[DC1780F0:01C68098] Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, small@freebsd.org, Ben Kelly Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 07:49:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig910DC26DB4CB9D183DEEDB71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [missed the reply-all, sorry Jim] Jim Thompson wrote: > I don't think its practical to port Freesbie to any new board, not in > the short-to-medium timeframe, either. What "Freesbie" are you talking about? Phk was referring to the second version of the toolkit I presented recently in Ottawa, that is perfectly usable for embedded system and it's ready to welcome new platforms. It is already ported for powerpc architecture and I want it to be ported to the arm and other archs (I don't have the hardware). Porting is really trivial. I suggest you to take a look: http://www.freesbie.org/~saturnero/FreeSBIE-BSDCan06-devsummit.pdf anonymous@cvs.freesbie.org module freesbie2 or: http://bugs.freesbie.org/dir?d=3Dfreesbie2 pfSense embedded images, which you mentioned in this thread, are a great example of use of FreeSBIE for packing a FreeBSD embedded 'distro'. --=20 Dario Freni (saturnero@freesbie.org) FreeSBIE developer (http://www.freesbie.org) GPG Public key at http://www.saturnero.net/saturnero.asc --------------enig910DC26DB4CB9D183DEEDB71 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFEdrLcymi72IiShysRAlcbAJ44uXULdFf0gbvhZNOIS0xi4i2irACgkBn0 xpL+aS3xyy8En4aksDyONbs= =T8DB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig910DC26DB4CB9D183DEEDB71-- From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 08:32:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9CB16A538 for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 08:32:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from netgate.com (mail.netgate.com [64.62.194.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD90643D46 for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 08:32:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jim@netgate.com) Received: from [192.168.2.192] (rrcs-67-52-77-54.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.77.54]) by netgate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B17280077; Fri, 26 May 2006 01:32:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <200605252324.52346.ogautherot@vtr.net> References: <200605252324.52346.ogautherot@vtr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Thompson Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 22:32:04 -1000 To: olivier@gautherot.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) Cc: ralbab@gmail.com, small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Embedded file system X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 08:32:15 -0000 I've got comments on the draft, but the PDF makes it more difficult for me to respond with them. I'll deal with that a bit later. In the meantime, I've assembled a small set of 'other' flash filesystem papers at http://www.smallworks.com/~jim/FFS/ the kawaguchi95 and 'usenix2005' papers are particularly interesting. The 'usenix2005' paper describes TTFS, which could serve as an interesting design document for a FreeBSD-based FFS effort. 30443601.pdf is the documentation for the Intel FFS. Jim From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 10:54:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2696616A433; Fri, 26 May 2006 10:54:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from glebius@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cell.sick.ru (cell.sick.ru [217.72.144.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62CD343D46; Fri, 26 May 2006 10:54:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from glebius@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cell.sick.ru (glebius@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cell.sick.ru (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k4QAsklN048303 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 26 May 2006 14:54:46 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from glebius@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from glebius@localhost) by cell.sick.ru (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id k4QAsj7l048302; Fri, 26 May 2006 14:54:45 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from glebius@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cell.sick.ru: glebius set sender to glebius@FreeBSD.org using -f Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 14:54:45 +0400 From: Gleb Smirnoff To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20060526105445.GF27819@FreeBSD.org> References: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Cc: small@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 10:54:55 -0000 On Thu, May 25, 2006 at 01:24:13PM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: P> We think that it is important to make it easy for people to get P> FreeBSD onto their embedded hardware so that they can start P> their work by experimenting and customizing rather than figuring P> out how to get FreeBSD to boot at all. P> P> Currently FreeBSD comes in three different packagings: P> P> * The official release "Normal disk installations" P> * The FreeSBIE kit "Run from CDROM etc" P> * NanoBSD "Run from flash etc" As usual, people forget about Frenzy distribution: http://frenzy.org.ua/en/ -- Totus tuus, Glebius. GLEBIUS-RIPN GLEB-RIPE From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 11:49:19 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1917C16A424 for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 11:49:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.187]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68DF343D46 for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 11:49:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id x29so60724nfb for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 04:49:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ZsWn0F2n7TkL85xPOJNnkFLOdy6CZsGvsb8tSqWwJzODviR8tSf7HYbw4zqEh41BcGsOaP2tXzfE/zzb7TJj01+OFo4WTGVUt52Bx5QwbJbnEpgzJThr9AH54jIJcreukhRcyEM975us05RbNse34GuDKXUf2sSJPjSAbQI2dSE= Received: by 10.49.38.17 with SMTP id q17mr5702nfj; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.49.17 with HTTP; Thu, 25 May 2006 17:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9f7850090605251725n5a37ff5fkd930a151e0a764c0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:25:14 -0700 From: "marty fouts" To: "James Mansion" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4475E99C.5000502@nortel.com> Cc: Alexander Leidinger , Poul-Henning Kamp , Andrew Atrens , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:49:19 -0000 On 5/25/06, James Mansion wrote: > > Assume you have cron drive a flush once an hour and > consider how long until a sector dies, even if the drive > itself does no wear levelling at all (and I believe some > do it internally). I would be loathe to rely on a cron flush on a battery powered device. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 12:45:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EADEB16A420 for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 12:45:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joseph.koshy@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.174]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5E9843D46 for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 12:45:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joseph.koshy@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id m2so134909uge for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 05:45:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LWNasrIjwSDODhsKcnosfBp8oFoSta5kiWZOhkeogYI8VdxRvJhP4//xVtVOvbj1tGQE59M5xIaIhm0T4Nxw+LY05KA9Da3Q21zxMevA/IfHrzwKvSJkBdaBwpOo5N8Q+ifT/JvXj0a0PkhTZUlbiccAQWnMUzb6DLej8r848II= Received: by 10.78.31.18 with SMTP id e18mr76041hue; Fri, 26 May 2006 05:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.71.19 with HTTP; Fri, 26 May 2006 05:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <84dead720605260517k3cd67611q8c7af77898dab7a8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:47:05 +0530 From: "Joseph Koshy" To: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20060525.140544.1474621433.imp@bsdimp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> <472414CE-94E8-4C8A-9586-DCA9E02A53C3@netgate.com> <20060525.140544.1474621433.imp@bsdimp.com> Cc: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 12:45:17 -0000 imp> There's many sub $100 MIPS boards available that have enough imp> resourses, barely, for a minimal system to boot/run on. Any recommendations? -- FreeBSD Developer, http://people.freebsd.org/~jkoshy From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 12:45:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E651716A427; Fri, 26 May 2006 12:45:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@yazzy.org) Received: from mx1.yazzy.org (mx1.yazzy.org [84.247.145.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E7B43D46; Fri, 26 May 2006 12:45:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lists@yazzy.org) Received: from mail.witelcom.com ([84.247.144.144] helo=marcin) by mx1.yazzy.org with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (YazzY.org) id 1Fjbgx-0000ta-7N; Fri, 26 May 2006 14:45:23 +0200 Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 14:46:04 +0200 From: Marcin Jessa To: "Joseph Koshy" Message-ID: <20060526144604.09d82003@marcin> In-Reply-To: <84dead720605260517k3cd67611q8c7af77898dab7a8@mail.gmail.com> References: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> <472414CE-94E8-4C8A-9586-DCA9E02A53C3@netgate.com> <20060525.140544.1474621433.imp@bsdimp.com> <84dead720605260517k3cd67611q8c7af77898dab7a8@mail.gmail.com> Organization: YazzY.org X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 2.2.0 (GTK+ 2.8.12; i386-portbld-freebsd6.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) Cc: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 12:45:59 -0000 On Fri, 26 May 2006 17:47:05 +0530 "Joseph Koshy" wrote: > imp> There's many sub $100 MIPS boards available that have enough > imp> resourses, barely, for a minimal system to boot/run on. > > Any recommendations? http://www.routerboard.com/rb500.html From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 13:10:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E23616A424; Fri, 26 May 2006 13:10:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B6243D4C; Fri, 26 May 2006 13:10:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [IPv6:::1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QD9jeD053109; Fri, 26 May 2006 07:09:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 07:09:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20060526.070946.-1350496260.imp@bsdimp.com> To: joseph.koshy@gmail.com From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <84dead720605260517k3cd67611q8c7af77898dab7a8@mail.gmail.com> References: <472414CE-94E8-4C8A-9586-DCA9E02A53C3@netgate.com> <20060525.140544.1474621433.imp@bsdimp.com> <84dead720605260517k3cd67611q8c7af77898dab7a8@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 4.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 13:10:42 -0000 In message: <84dead720605260517k3cd67611q8c7af77898dab7a8@mail.gmail.com> "Joseph Koshy" writes: : imp> There's many sub $100 MIPS boards available that have enough : imp> resourses, barely, for a minimal system to boot/run on. : : Any recommendations? The Edimax BR-6104K is the one that I've seen recently for about $30-$35. http://www.linux-mips.org/wiki/Adm5120 has the full list of the boards based on the Adm 5120. Tiger direct was also selling a wireless variant called the ZyXEL HS-100W for like $25. Don't know how well it will work, or if they still have them. Warner From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 13:20:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C9F916A420; Fri, 26 May 2006 13:20:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from mrout1-b.corp.dcn.yahoo.com (mrout1-b.corp.dcn.yahoo.com [216.109.112.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EFDD43D5A; Fri, 26 May 2006 13:20:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from traveling-laptop-140.corp.yahoo.com.neville-neil.com (proxy8.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.48.13]) by mrout1-b.corp.dcn.yahoo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4/y.out) with ESMTP id k4QDKTTf055021; Fri, 26 May 2006 06:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:59:22 +0900 Message-ID: From: gnn@freebsd.org To: Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-apple-darwin8.5.1) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 13:20:45 -0000 At Thu, 25 May 2006 13:24:13 +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > Advocacy > -------- > > Right now we do nearly nothing. > > For our "reference platforms" we need two part webpages. > > The first half: "to get FreeBSD running on this kit, download > this and do that", with pictures, arrows and config file lines etc. > > The second half: "Here is how to build this image on your own" > > We also need white-papers, HOW-TO's, magazine articles and so on. > > Nobody really owned up to any of this. > I actually was dumb enough to own up to this. I have been collecting information off of small@ as well as private emails to put into a set of web pages. I have also registered embeddedfreebsd.org/net/com and freebsdembedded.org/net/com. I'm working with the FreeBSD admins on whether or not I'll host pages directly on freebsd.org or go with the current Trusted BSD model of hosting them myself. Long run it would be best to be on freebsd.org I should have rudimentary pages within the week. Later, George From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 14:47:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B325016A420; Fri, 26 May 2006 14:47:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C49443D46; Fri, 26 May 2006 14:47:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk ([158.152.96.124] helo=thor) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Fjdb3-000EZH-6A; Fri, 26 May 2006 14:47:26 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by thor ([127.0.0.1] running VPOP3) with SMTP; Fri, 26 May 2006 06:51:03 +0100 From: "James Mansion" To: "Jim Thompson" Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 06:50:43 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <2EFA38F2-77CE-429D-A9DE-9E764EEAA8CB@netgate.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0k - Registered Cc: Alexander Leidinger , Poul-Henning Kamp , Andrew Atrens , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 14:47:28 -0000 >Might want to re-think your argument in terms of a system with 32MB >of ram >and 4MB of NAND or NOR flash. Why? You have enough RAM to have a small memory disk for writable stuff. Presumably the device does not run an application that expects to write data except occassional status stuff. I'm assuming a small number of kilobytes for this. And you can force a status dump out when you need to. BNormally I'd expect readonly-root, but sometimes you want to be 'readonly except when I want to save a change in config', right? You're not going to run squid caches off a flash, wear levelling or not. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 14:56:08 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1431616A41F; Fri, 26 May 2006 14:56:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F242443D77; Fri, 26 May 2006 14:56:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk ([158.152.96.124] helo=thor) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1FjdjL-000JHY-C1; Fri, 26 May 2006 14:56:00 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by thor ([127.0.0.1] running VPOP3) with SMTP; Fri, 26 May 2006 15:56:58 +0100 From: "James Mansion" To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" , "Olivier Gautherot" Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 15:56:54 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <4784.1148586952@critter.freebsd.dk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0k - Registered Cc: Alexander Leidinger , Andrew Atrens , small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 14:56:10 -0000 > "The adequate has always been the worst enemy of excellence" > >Remember, it's: "FreeBSD, the best damn UNIX around", not "FreeBSD: >Yet Another Mediocre UNIX". Well, I would counter: 'Good enough means exactly what it says, and doing more is foolish' Its not as if FreeBSD *IS* so wonderful. How many libc_r systems do you need - and are any of them the last word? And aio? Seriously, 'good enough, here now, cheap, and low risk' is very desirable for practicality. Arsing around trying to be 'the best' for some academic definition of 'best' is more developer conceit than anything else. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 15:21:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 436F616A447; Fri, 26 May 2006 15:21:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E2D43D46; Fri, 26 May 2006 15:21:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (0x50a07cfc.naenxx7.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.160.124.252]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B3D4A50016; Fri, 26 May 2006 17:21:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4QFLDln009823; Fri, 26 May 2006 17:21:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "James Mansion" From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 26 May 2006 15:56:54 BST." Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:21:12 +0200 Message-ID: <9822.1148656872@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: current@freebsd.org, Alexander Leidinger , Andrew Atrens , small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 15:21:18 -0000 In message , "James Mansi on" writes: >> "The adequate has always been the worst enemy of excellence" >> >>Remember, it's: "FreeBSD, the best damn UNIX around", not "FreeBSD: >>Yet Another Mediocre UNIX". > >Well, I would counter: > >'Good enough means exactly what it says, and doing more is foolish' I think you seriously lack historical perspective if that is your considered opinion. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 17:51:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F314116A5B3; Fri, 26 May 2006 17:50:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ATRENS@nortel.com) Received: from zrtps0kp.nortel.com (zrtps0kp.nortel.com [47.140.192.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB39C43D5C; Fri, 26 May 2006 17:50:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ATRENS@nortel.com) Received: from zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.99]) by zrtps0kp.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id k4QHoU414572; Fri, 26 May 2006 13:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.10.2] ([47.128.166.148] RDNS failed) by zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 26 May 2006 13:50:28 -0400 Message-ID: <44773FDB.1090901@nortel.com> Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 13:50:19 -0400 From: "Andrew Atrens" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051129) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp References: <9822.1148656872@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <9822.1148656872@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 May 2006 17:50:28.0302 (UTC) FILETIME=[DFDC1EE0:01C680EC] Cc: current@freebsd.org, Alexander Leidinger , small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:51:05 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message , "James Mansi > on" writes: > >>>"The adequate has always been the worst enemy of excellence" >>> >>>Remember, it's: "FreeBSD, the best damn UNIX around", not "FreeBSD: >>>Yet Another Mediocre UNIX". >> >>Well, I would counter: >> >>'Good enough means exactly what it says, and doing more is foolish' > > > I think you seriously lack historical perspective if that is your > considered opinion. I suppose it depends entirely on your objective. If your objective is making money and you want to be first to the market with your toaster, then you scale back features or quality or both in favour of schedule. And some people would argue that over-engineering a toaster is a waste of time and money because the breakfast user doesn't really care how a toaster works, just that it works .. and if it breaks, they'll just go buy another one for 20 bucks. On the other hand, if you're building an embedded system for a lunar lander for Apollo 13, or a real time control system, then I would argue that you should squeeze in as many engineering cycles as you can, because a dependable system is only as robust as its weakest link. Having said that, I don't think James initially knew that a CF does wear-levelling - so perhaps he doesn't have that much direct experience with these devices. Putting on my selfish hat I'd love to have a filesystem that could run directly on raw flash, but I was under the impression that writing a filesystem from scratch is a serious undertaking. And given the volunteer nature of this project I thought that partitioning the problem into two - by first creating a driver that manages raw flash and presents it as a disk (similar to what a CF would do) .. could be done before or in parallel with creating a new journalling filesystem. Obviously the raw driver would provide some extensions / hooks / hints that the jfs could take advantage of .. A bit more work/thought then writing a flash-specific filesystem perhaps but - * partitioning the work would mean that with just the first part completed many folks could use it / test it .. and give people a kick start on the embedded side * the low level driver could be shared with the other bsd's .. this could mean better (and quicker) support for more flash parts Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here though .. could it be that the work delta between writing the full filesystem vs the 'CF-like' driver + filesystem is relatively small ? I don't know, I'm just asking. :) Andrew. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEdz/b8It2CaCdeMwRAukJAJ9O2LfV7CzcaXcVo8/qObwaSzSUBACfX3sF 8+O5nZPZBCw7ECuLd4I7ijM= =Yysu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 17:53:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9AF616AAF7; Fri, 26 May 2006 17:53:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF6743D55; Fri, 26 May 2006 17:53:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (0x50a07cfc.naenxx7.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.160.124.252]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D49A50019; Fri, 26 May 2006 19:53:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k4QHr2MQ010408; Fri, 26 May 2006 19:53:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Andrew Atrens" From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 26 May 2006 13:50:19 EDT." <44773FDB.1090901@nortel.com> Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 19:53:02 +0200 Message-ID: <10407.1148665982@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: current@freebsd.org, Alexander Leidinger , small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:53:16 -0000 In message <44773FDB.1090901@nortel.com>, "Andrew Atrens" writes: >>>'Good enough means exactly what it says, and doing more is foolish' >> >> I think you seriously lack historical perspective if that is your >> considered opinion. > >I suppose it depends entirely on your objective. If your objective is >making money and you want to be first to the market with your toaster, >then you scale back features or quality or both in favour of schedule. My objective is to produce the best damn UNIX and keep it viable for at least another ten years. That means that I have to be at least three years ahead of the users and I have to make it robust, fast and innovative enough that they want to use it. For that "good enough" will not cut it. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 18:36:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7612216B03B for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 18:36:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivier@gautherot.net) Received: from smtp2-g19.free.fr (smtp2-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7776743D46 for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 18:36:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olivier@gautherot.net) Received: from imp3-g19.free.fr (imp3-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.3]) by smtp2-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256D373206; Fri, 26 May 2006 20:36:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: by imp3-g19.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id 09A6362A8; Fri, 26 May 2006 20:43:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 200.54.71.227 ([200.54.71.227]) by imp3-g19.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 20:43:44 +0200 Message-ID: <1148669024.44774c60e1f1b@imp3-g19.free.fr> Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 20:43:44 +0200 From: Olivier Gautherot To: Andrew Atrens References: <9822.1148656872@critter.freebsd.dk> <44773FDB.1090901@nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <44773FDB.1090901@nortel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 200.54.71.227 Cc: Alexander Leidinger , Poul-Henning Kamp , small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda - filesystems X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 18:36:48 -0000 > >>>"The adequate has always been the worst enemy of excellence" > >>'Good enough means exactly what it says, and doing more is foolish' The one I knew is "The better is the worst ennemy of the best" :-) Good to see these arguments: it means that people are alive and proud of their positions - and that's what keeps a community moving! I totally agree with Andrew that if a product does not make it through the door, it has no value, only cost. That's the law of industry. When Poul-Henning says we shoud strive for the best: well, we're on a free project and no one will be fired if it takes 2 more months. We're all proud to support this great system and I think we should thank all those great contributors that strive for the best and drive the industry. Still, we have to settle on an approach (or 2). Embedded is a peculiar market where *BSD is still lacking presence. The lack of filesystem is probably central to this and needs to be measured but, before all, we need to check what type of application we want to approach: for a router, my best guess is "anything will do": you don't (or seldom) write to the file system. A monitoring device will definitely be more demanding. Going out with the wrong set of features or the wrong timing may kill the project in the egg. The question of the day, for me, is: what market(s) are we targeting? Where do you see possible applications? I would love to see it on audio/video over powerlines, monitoring systems, firewalls (obviously), robotics and more. The OS in itself has a great potential. The question is where do YOU feel the foot-in-the-doorstep is and what do you need to make it happen? Creating the filesystem is time and work. The ideal situation is to have the product in hand and, on top of it, have the product be the advocate: demonstrate that BSD is just as good, if not better, than the others and then show that the license is the winner (I think we all agree on this one). That's why I am starting the study from the ground up - maybe an existing FS will do the job, the only way to find out is to check our goals against their features. Disclaimer: "Just as good" does not mean "another mediocre" but "definitely another competitor in the marketplace" - IMHO, performance will do the rest. Just my opinion -- "If there is no solution, there is no problem" Shadok proverb ---------------------------------------------- Olivier Gautherot olivier@gautherot.net Tel: +56 8 730 9361 From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 19:07:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B3316AF4E; Fri, 26 May 2006 19:07:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (vc4-2-0-87.dsl.netrack.net [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45F7543D46; Fri, 26 May 2006 19:07:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.village.org [IPv6:::1] (may be forged)) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k4QJ68W9057737; Fri, 26 May 2006 13:06:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 13:06:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20060526.130609.1678771902.imp@bsdimp.com> To: glebius@freebsd.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20060526105445.GF27819@FreeBSD.org> References: <2538.1148556253@critter.freebsd.dk> <20060526105445.GF27819@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 4.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: phk@phk.freebsd.dk, small@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 19:07:32 -0000 In message: <20060526105445.GF27819@FreeBSD.org> Gleb Smirnoff writes: : On Thu, May 25, 2006 at 01:24:13PM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: : P> We think that it is important to make it easy for people to get : P> FreeBSD onto their embedded hardware so that they can start : P> their work by experimenting and customizing rather than figuring : P> out how to get FreeBSD to boot at all. : P> : P> Currently FreeBSD comes in three different packagings: : P> : P> * The official release "Normal disk installations" : P> * The FreeSBIE kit "Run from CDROM etc" : P> * NanoBSD "Run from flash etc" : : As usual, people forget about Frenzy distribution: : : http://frenzy.org.ua/en/ Maybe we need a page talking about this and all the similar packaging that others have odne? Warner From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 19:50:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2DD216B25A for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 19:50:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nec556@retena.com) Received: from smtp06.retemail.es (smtp06.auna.com [62.81.186.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E317943D60 for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 19:50:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nec556@retena.com) Received: from webmail03 ([192.168.252.24]) by smtp06.retemail.es (InterMail vM.6.01.04.01 201-2131-118-101-20041129) with ESMTP id <20060526195037.KRIT8624.smtp06.retemail.es@webmail03>; Fri, 26 May 2006 21:50:37 +0200 Message-ID: <13295.1148673037369.JavaMail.root@webmail03> Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 21:50:37 +0200 From: To: small@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sensitivity: Normal X-Auth-Info: Auth:LOGIN IP:[192.168.252.24] Login:nec556@retena.com Fecha:Fri, 26 May 2006 21:50:37 +0200 Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 19:50:47 -0000 > What "Freesbie" are you talking about? Phk was referring to the second > version of the toolkit I presented recently in Ottawa, that is perfectly > usable for embedded system and it's ready to welcome new platforms. It > is already ported for powerpc architecture and I want it to be ported to > the arm and other archs (I don't have the hardware). Porting is really > trivial. I suggest you to take a look: > It works for powerpc?? Is it available for download or only via cvs? > http://www.freesbie.org/~saturnero/FreeSBIE-BSDCan06-devsummit.pdf > > anonymous@cvs.freesbie.org module freesbie2 or: > http://bugs.freesbie.org/dir?d=freesbie2 Also, you have forget that a flash memory is not needed, our device just have a little rom with a micro o.s. (Contiki) and download the real o.s. from ethernet using tftp. The storage system is on a server, where each device has a 'slice' for each one. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 20:52:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA2D16B0C6 for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 20:52:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from saturnero@freesbie.org) Received: from out4.alice.it (smtp-out04.alice.it [85.37.17.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550D543D46 for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 20:52:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from saturnero@freesbie.org) Received: from FBCMMO03.fbc.local ([192.168.68.197]) by out4.alice.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 26 May 2006 22:52:33 +0200 Received: from client.alice.it ([192.168.68.142]) by FBCMMO03.fbc.local with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 26 May 2006 22:52:33 +0200 Received: from [192.168.99.16] ([87.5.150.129]) by client.alice.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 26 May 2006 22:52:33 +0200 Message-ID: <44776A79.7010808@freesbie.org> Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 22:52:09 +0200 From: Dario Freni User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.5.0.2 (Macintosh/20060308) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nec556@retena.com, small@freebsd.org References: <13295.1148673037369.JavaMail.root@webmail03> In-Reply-To: <13295.1148673037369.JavaMail.root@webmail03> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 OpenPGP: url=http://www.saturnero.net/saturnero.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig5775FF286F9722732341B877" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 May 2006 20:52:33.0304 (UTC) FILETIME=[4FAB2180:01C68106] Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 20:52:37 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig5775FF286F9722732341B877 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable nec556@retena.com ha scritto: >> What "Freesbie" are you talking about? Phk was referring to the second= >> version of the toolkit I presented recently in Ottawa, that is perfect= ly >> usable for embedded system and it's ready to welcome new platforms. It= >> is already ported for powerpc architecture and I want it to be ported = to >> the arm and other archs (I don't have the hardware). Porting is really= >> trivial. I suggest you to take a look: >> >=20 > It works for powerpc?? Is it available for download or only via cvs? I made only test ISOs and usb images to proof the toolkit works, during the former SoC. >> http://www.freesbie.org/~saturnero/FreeSBIE-BSDCan06-devsummit.pdf >> >> anonymous@cvs.freesbie.org module freesbie2 or: >> http://bugs.freesbie.org/dir?d=3Dfreesbie2 >=20 > Also, you have forget that a flash memory is not needed, our device jus= t have a little rom with a micro o.s. (Contiki) and download the real o.s= =2E from ethernet using tftp. The storage system is on a server, where ea= ch device has a 'slice' for each one. Yes, an interesting idea is to make a ISO/image with a PXE server environment already configured, so you can use i.e. in a lab to make all machines booting diskless. --=20 Dario Freni (saturnero@freesbie.org) FreeSBIE developer (http://www.freesbie.org) GPG Public key at http://www.saturnero.net/saturnero.asc --------------enig5775FF286F9722732341B877 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFEd2p9ymi72IiShysRAizrAKCIP83SAevuOCC1XfLPks2qV3IQdgCeP1cG 3koB+ZkzaEO5+pyoITPKJY8= =MMWw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig5775FF286F9722732341B877-- From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 26 21:59:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853FE16BFAA for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 21:59:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.86]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D69543D62 for ; Fri, 26 May 2006 21:59:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk ([158.152.96.124] helo=thor) by anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1FjkLY-000L0Y-Lr; Fri, 26 May 2006 21:59:53 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by thor ([127.0.0.1] running VPOP3) with SMTP; Fri, 26 May 2006 22:53:01 +0100 From: "James Mansion" To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 22:51:54 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <9822.1148656872@critter.freebsd.dk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0k - Registered Cc: Alexander Leidinger , Andrew Atrens , small@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 22:00:06 -0000 >>'Good enough means exactly what it says, and doing more is foolish' > >I think you seriously lack historical perspective if that is your >considered opinion. No, I work in an industry where delay means opportunity cost, and we have to focus on getting to market before the market has moved on and margins reduce. FreeBSD has not done particularly well in this regard in the past, and my historical perspective is that I keep drifting away from FreeBSD because it periodically has its head up its arse trying to 'get it right' while the world just gets on with things. I'm just a user. I don't care about FreeBSD - its just an operating system, and there are plenty to choose from that are affordable and entirely adequate. The point I would like to make is that to be useful, an OS has to run the programs I want to run, on the hardware I have - and do it today. There's no point trying to create the best possible solution to the problems I'm solving today, because by the time you've done it: a) I'll have changed to using something else and b) the problems will have changed by then too. To a user with a job to do, being timely and relevant is often much more important than ultimate, eventual, elegance. I accept that from a creative perspective such mundane practicality is not artistically satisfying. As a practical example, I have a Via 600MHz fanless box here, with a CF reader that looks like an IDE disk drive. I have a project in mind to replace my current central heating control system with it: one of my objectives is that the current system (which uses an old HP Vectra running SuSE) tends to get unhappy after power cuts, and the disk is noisy - I'd like to fix that. So I figured I'd reuse an old 16MB CF card from a camera after we upgraded to a much bigger card. And I thought about it for a while and I've tried a few small system configurations with Linux and NetBSD and FreeBSD. But you know what? While I was doing that the price of a 2GB card fell to around the cost of my return fair to work every day. I'd still like to fit a solution on that 16MG card, but only for bragging rights. But making it so small isn't the 'best' solution. Its a stupid conceit, an end in itself. I couldnt even share it with others in practice because such small CF cards are obsolete and now virtually unobtainable. In practice I should just roll PC-BSD onto a bigger drive, KDE and all, set readonly root, and move on. Please do explain what you mean, anyway. Preferably without being condescending. James From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 27 14:09:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B69E16A88D; Sat, 27 May 2006 14:09:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9388D43D46; Sat, 27 May 2006 14:09:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from james@wgold.demon.co.uk) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk ([158.152.96.124] helo=thor) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1FjzTT-0004BU-Ep; Sat, 27 May 2006 14:09:04 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by thor ([127.0.0.1] running VPOP3) with SMTP; Sat, 27 May 2006 13:27:31 +0100 From: "James Mansion" To: "Andrew Atrens" , "Poul-Henning Kamp" Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 13:27:25 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <44773FDB.1090901@nortel.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0k - Registered Cc: current@freebsd.org, Alexander Leidinger , small@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 14:09:20 -0000 >On the other hand, if you're building an embedded system for a lunar >lander for Apollo 13, or a real time control system, then I would argue >that you should squeeze in as many engineering cycles as you can, >because a dependable system is only as robust as its weakest link. I disagree. What you are building does not change the truism. All that happens is that 'good enough' has a more stringent definition - that's the whole point. >Having said that, I don't think James initially knew that a CF does >wear-levelling - so perhaps he doesn't have that much direct experience >with these devices. I thought I made the point that I believe many do. But once again the issue here is not whether the do or not, its whether wear-levelling is a requirement. A modern flash device will handle many updates per sector, and a device that runs from flash is presumably intended not to be update-heavy. So long as you don't perform unnecessary housekeeping IO's such as flushing access times frequently, then you'll generally be fine. Do the maths. Systems tend to update /tmp and /var quite a lot, even then if you can avoid flushing the sectors with directories and delaying them, then you can get to a the point where the design life is not limited by the flash device. >Putting on my selfish hat I'd love to have a filesystem that could run >directly on raw flash. Why? Lets remember we're talking about an embedded system that can be sensibly implemented with a general purpose OS. I'd put it to you that normally where this is very desirable, its because the run rate is quite low so the project overall is very sensitive to ease and cost of development. But if the run rate is low, then you also need to consider what hardware will be available in volume at go-live, and CF-to-IDE is very cheap now in conjunction with system-on-a-chip designs for set top boxes. For big bulk, we have PIC, Atmel, Rabbit, and assorted 80186 designs (including one very cute thing I saw built into an ethernet PHY) If you really must wear level, then why not access through a layer that divides the whole CF into 'n' partitions, uses 'n-1' of them, re- presents the 'n-1' through a RAID0-like mapping, and allows the logical sector 0 in each partition to be changed (with wrap-around). Then you can use a real filesystem on top of the block-mapping layer, and the mapper can move the hotspot around the disk much as a RAID array can rebuild under a real system. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 27 17:07:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A8F16A48E for ; Sat, 27 May 2006 17:07:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: from hu-out-0102.google.com (hu-out-0102.google.com [72.14.214.192]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48A6943D48 for ; Sat, 27 May 2006 17:07:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mf.danger@gmail.com) Received: by hu-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 28so209781hug for ; Sat, 27 May 2006 10:07:57 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Q9URyp+yc4f0ynPnsDPkrJTHR3UvfK164POiDpZaG9D7xC50gc2sQjUCAzLFi8yD9pwzjcYvxlqRBusM4GbQ0z5qvs8dnoqD/yRH9SmGuXys+0uwpaF5SdZdjpL7sJ7v3Fd8dBs1aETBMyf2Sj4inpda8CGIs4yP7i0dVmbUGN8= Received: by 10.49.15.13 with SMTP id s13mr448446nfi; Sat, 27 May 2006 10:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.49.17 with HTTP; Sat, 27 May 2006 10:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9f7850090605271000j524d6a35gfa3f6df1f0ed59f5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 10:00:38 -0700 From: "marty fouts" To: "James Mansion" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44773FDB.1090901@nortel.com> Cc: Alexander Leidinger , Poul-Henning Kamp , Andrew Atrens , current@freebsd.org, small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's embedded agenda X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 17:08:13 -0000 On 5/27/06, James Mansion wrote: > Why? Lets remember we're talking about an embedded system that can be > sensibly implemented with a general purpose OS. I'd put it to you that > normally where this is very desirable, its because the run rate is > quite low so the project overall is very sensitive to ease and cost of > development. But if the run rate is low, then you also need to consider > what hardware will be available in volume at go-live, and CF-to-IDE > is very cheap now in conjunction with system-on-a-chip designs for > set top boxes. For big bulk, we have PIC, Atmel, Rabbit, and assorted > 80186 designs (including one very cute thing I saw built into an > ethernet PHY) As someone who has worked on Linux-based smartphones, I think that, at least in telephony, CF isn't particularly cheap, (and the form factor isn't particularly attractive,) and the run rate can still be high but sensitive to ease and cost of development. The hardware solution in telephony is NAND flash, because that has a reasonable form factor and a good price/megabyte of storage. Experience suggests that wear leveling does matter in this market, but that fairly simple wear leveling can be very effective.