From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 22 00:41:17 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9C716A402 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 00:41:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gcubfg-freebsd-geom@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D2B13C44B for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 00:41:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gcubfg-freebsd-geom@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HfQ8d-0003sX-NL for freebsd-geom@freebsd.org; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 02:41:11 +0200 Received: from 89-172-36-120.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.36.120]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 02:41:11 +0200 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-36-120.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 02:41:11 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 02:40:55 +0200 Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigF10022C00546033980614DCA" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-36-120.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) In-Reply-To: <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.3.0 Sender: news Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 00:41:18 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigF10022C00546033980614DCA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > On Apr 21, 2007, at 12:53 AM, Scott Long wrote: >> And as much as it pains me to say it, DES is right here ;-) geom_gpt >> needs to implement the appropriate verbs to allow apps to instruct the= >> gpt instance to modify itself, instead of forcing apps to blindly >> overwrite it. >=20 > Those verbs exist. There's no poor design There's only a long time > to get from A to B. In particular, what is missing? Users will need at least the possibility to add and remove partitions while the system is running and some partitions are mounted. Looking at the source tree, it seems that the userland utility is missing? (There's gpt(8) but it's for the old geom_gpt, right?) Subquestion: geom_gpt names partitions "xxxp0", "xxxp1", etc. so what happens if one of them is deleted? Will the numbers shift on next boot? I think I'l also include out of the box geom_label support :) Alternative is to use GUIDs, like some Linuxes do, so we have entries like /dev/gpt/38a52be4-9352-453e-af97-5c3b448652f0 --------------enigF10022C00546033980614DCA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGKq8cldnAQVacBcgRAgmsAKCYRvzQuRLnrlMiZSy7it7kv9M/3gCfZM+0 OvXh/wVl4ilWEEzUV1d86vs= =9pS4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigF10022C00546033980614DCA-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 22 00:45:07 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA2A16A402 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 00:45:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gcubfg-freebsd-geom@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC0E13C459 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 00:45:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gcubfg-freebsd-geom@m.gmane.org) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HfQCM-0004LD-AT for freebsd-geom@freebsd.org; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 02:45:02 +0200 Received: from 89-172-36-120.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.36.120]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 02:45:02 +0200 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-36-120.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 02:45:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 02:43:29 +0200 Lines: 25 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigC105726DE99AC968353E8575" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-36-120.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.3.0 Sender: news Subject: gjournal & async X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 00:45:07 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigC105726DE99AC968353E8575 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How does gjournal guarantee corectness if UFS is mounted async? AFAIK the "async" handling of IO requests is done by the UFS, the writes are not rescheduled at the GEOM layer? --------------enigC105726DE99AC968353E8575 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGKq+xldnAQVacBcgRAsTrAJ96X/8ww+sMsPFvzHNaxR8+FFcx+ACgx6Yd RWuLyAu3mUAwaqJbmKTlccM= =LjHG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigC105726DE99AC968353E8575-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 22 02:03:51 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B7316A402; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 02:03:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.174]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07DEC13C448; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 02:03:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin02-en2 [10.13.10.147]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/smtpout04/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3M23meE027500; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.5.252] (209-128-86-226.bayarea.net [209.128.86.226]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin02/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3M23j7O008752 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:03:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marcel Moolenaar Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:02:43 -0700 To: Ivan Voras X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Brightmail-scanned: yes Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 02:03:51 -0000 On Apr 21, 2007, at 5:40 PM, Ivan Voras wrote: > Marcel Moolenaar wrote: >> On Apr 21, 2007, at 12:53 AM, Scott Long wrote: > >>> And as much as it pains me to say it, DES is right here ;-) >>> geom_gpt >>> needs to implement the appropriate verbs to allow apps to >>> instruct the >>> gpt instance to modify itself, instead of forcing apps to blindly >>> overwrite it. >> >> Those verbs exist. There's no poor design There's only a long time >> to get from A to B. > > In particular, what is missing? A (generic) tool that utilizes the verbs. > Users will need at least the possibility to add and remove partitions > while the system is running and some partitions are mounted. > Looking at > the source tree, it seems that the userland utility is missing? > (There's > gpt(8) but it's for the old geom_gpt, right?) gpt(8) does not use GEOM verbs. It was written before that time. That's what the complains are mostly about. I started to convert geom_gpt to use verbs, but that grew into g_part because it's not only GPT that needs verbs and I also saw that APM (The Apple partitioning scheme) needed to be supported, which, if I were to do that, would need exactly the same thing. So, I extended the scope of the work... > Subquestion: geom_gpt names partitions "xxxp0", "xxxp1", etc. so what > happens if one of them is deleted? Will the numbers shift on next > boot? No. The partition number is the index of the partition entry in the table. That typically does not change (though nothing prevents a tool to reorder the entries in the table or compact the table). > I think I'l also include out of the box geom_label support :) GPT (like APM) has labels, which we should propagate. It's not a priority for me, but I presume that it shouldn't be too difficult to interface with geom_label. > Alternative is to use GUIDs, like some Linuxes do, so we have entries > like /dev/gpt/38a52be4-9352-453e-af97-5c3b448652f0 I've thought about that too, but again it's not a priority. It takes me long enough as it is to adopt the new world order that other features have to wait :-) -- Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 22 03:30:45 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D116516A400 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 03:30:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Received: from mh1.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [64.129.166.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A622613C455 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 03:30:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Received: from neutrino.centtech.com (andersonbox1.centtech.com [192.168.42.21]) by mh1.centtech.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3M3UYn5038039; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:30:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <462AD6DA.1070203@freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:30:34 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (X11/20070420) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Voras References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.4/3146/Sat Apr 21 14:39:19 2007 on mh1.centtech.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=8.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.6 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.6 (2006-10-03) on mh1.centtech.com Cc: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gjournal & async X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 03:30:45 -0000 On 04/21/07 19:43, Ivan Voras wrote: > How does gjournal guarantee corectness if UFS is mounted async? AFAIK > the "async" handling of IO requests is done by the UFS, the writes are > not rescheduled at the GEOM layer? > I'm slightly guessing here that it can guarantee consistency because async writes may not have made it to the disk (the journal), and when gjournal replays the journal, it syncs the file system (flushing all the writes to disk first), then writes the journaled data to the consistent file system image. So, a write that is claimed as 'completed' to the process by the kernel, may still be in memory, and only partially written to the journal, or not at all. Either way, if an unclean unmount of the filesystem occurs, it's either lost completely, a partial journal write (so should be tossed anyway), or a complete journal entry synced down just before journal switch. Eric From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 22 12:39:57 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF7716A402 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:39:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: from mail.garage.freebsd.pl (arm132.internetdsl.tpnet.pl [83.17.198.132]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDEA13C48A for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:39:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 6BDCE45CD9; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 14:39:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (public-gprs38729.centertel.pl [91.94.23.121]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B7BB45696; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 14:39:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 14:38:52 +0200 From: Pawel Jakub Dawidek To: Ivan Voras Message-ID: <20070422123852.GA52622@garage.freebsd.pl> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jRHKVT23PllUwdXP" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~pjd/pjd.asc X-OS: FreeBSD 7.0-CURRENT i386 User-Agent: mutt-ng/devel-r804 (FreeBSD) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on mail.garage.freebsd.pl X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL autolearn=no version=3.0.4 Cc: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gjournal & async X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:39:57 -0000 --jRHKVT23PllUwdXP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 02:43:29AM +0200, Ivan Voras wrote: > How does gjournal guarantee corectness if UFS is mounted async? AFAIK > the "async" handling of IO requests is done by the UFS, the writes are > not rescheduled at the GEOM layer? GJournal has some minimum knowledge about VFS. Before it does journal switch, it synchronize and suspends file system. This way we can be sure everything is on disk in a consistent state. --=20 Pawel Jakub Dawidek http://www.wheel.pl pjd@FreeBSD.org http://www.FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer Am I Evil? Yes, I Am! --jRHKVT23PllUwdXP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFGK1dcForvXbEpPzQRAuP0AJ9eoDQFYDxPcmcNwtXK9aF8GSPF9wCghcQF sRXrTWffigHFo0Dq7RqBhmo= =e3hd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jRHKVT23PllUwdXP-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 22 16:11:17 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB98716A400; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:11:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@fer.hr) Received: from ls405.t-com.hr (ls405.t-com.hr [195.29.150.135]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 747E813C45E; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:11:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@fer.hr) Received: from ls248.t-com.hr (ls248.t-com.hr [195.29.150.237]) by ls405.t-com.hr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D096B144452; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 17:48:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ls248.t-com.hr (ls248.t-com.hr [127.0.0.1]) by ls248.t-com.hr (Qmlai) with ESMTP id C6E0ED50047; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 17:48:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ls248.t-com.hr (ls248.t-com.hr [127.0.0.1]) by ls248.t-com.hr (Qmlai) with ESMTP id B2196D50058; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 17:48:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Envelope-Sender-Info: g5URFa92gX9K/Rg9VFA/rK7Af78qf1/z4pTs7sG3zdc6StkSH1j7CT0zJW9WjWDV X-Envelope-Sender: ivoras@fer.hr Received: from [10.0.0.100] (89-172-244-220.adsl.net.t-com.hr [89.172.244.220]) by ls248.t-com.hr (Qmali) with ESMTP id 855195E00A9; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 17:48:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <462B83D7.1010905@fer.hr> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 17:48:39 +0200 From: Ivan Voras User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pawel Jakub Dawidek References: <20070422123852.GA52622@garage.freebsd.pl> In-Reply-To: <20070422123852.GA52622@garage.freebsd.pl> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.3.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig978BEB8536964D0ECE77EFA1" Cc: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: gjournal & async X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:11:17 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig978BEB8536964D0ECE77EFA1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote: > On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 02:43:29AM +0200, Ivan Voras wrote: >> How does gjournal guarantee corectness if UFS is mounted async? AFAIK >> the "async" handling of IO requests is done by the UFS, the writes are= >> not rescheduled at the GEOM layer? >=20 > GJournal has some minimum knowledge about VFS. Before it does journal > switch, it synchronize and suspends file system. This way we can be sur= e > everything is on disk in a consistent state. Thanks. So, this (async support) could actually work with other file systems, like ext2 and msdos? --------------enig978BEB8536964D0ECE77EFA1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGK4PXldnAQVacBcgRAiS6AKCAjFido0wfna+8A1Mc27VdgQHauwCglSVP Eauf1qAWiF5enGU6EfM4pTQ= =lXls -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig978BEB8536964D0ECE77EFA1-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 22 16:26:48 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E9A16A403 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:26:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: from mail.garage.freebsd.pl (arm132.internetdsl.tpnet.pl [83.17.198.132]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1750B13C45E for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:26:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 75C1645CD9; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:26:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (public-gprs38729.centertel.pl [91.94.23.121]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF4DA456AB; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:26:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:26:01 +0200 From: Pawel Jakub Dawidek To: Ivan Voras Message-ID: <20070422162601.GD52622@garage.freebsd.pl> References: <20070422123852.GA52622@garage.freebsd.pl> <462B83D7.1010905@fer.hr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Q0rSlbzrZN6k9QnT" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <462B83D7.1010905@fer.hr> X-PGP-Key-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~pjd/pjd.asc X-OS: FreeBSD 7.0-CURRENT i386 User-Agent: mutt-ng/devel-r804 (FreeBSD) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on mail.garage.freebsd.pl X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL autolearn=no version=3.0.4 Cc: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: gjournal & async X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:26:48 -0000 --Q0rSlbzrZN6k9QnT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 05:48:39PM +0200, Ivan Voras wrote: > Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 02:43:29AM +0200, Ivan Voras wrote: > >> How does gjournal guarantee corectness if UFS is mounted async? AFAIK > >> the "async" handling of IO requests is done by the UFS, the writes are > >> not rescheduled at the GEOM layer? > >=20 > > GJournal has some minimum knowledge about VFS. Before it does journal > > switch, it synchronize and suspends file system. This way we can be sure > > everything is on disk in a consistent state. >=20 > Thanks. So, this (async support) could actually work with other file > systems, like ext2 and msdos? Once gjournal is taught about them, yes. --=20 Pawel Jakub Dawidek http://www.wheel.pl pjd@FreeBSD.org http://www.FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer Am I Evil? Yes, I Am! --Q0rSlbzrZN6k9QnT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFGK4yZForvXbEpPzQRAp6UAKChgbfkFMHYQw9XGYhC7R66VlrYFQCfUUrZ 8yunH3/Dcn5hDwePNJ4rDN4= =8Cyw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Q0rSlbzrZN6k9QnT-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 22 16:28:31 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9E0C16A400; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:28:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@fer.hr) Received: from ls405.t-com.hr (ls405.t-com.hr [195.29.150.135]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448E713C45E; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:28:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@fer.hr) Received: from ls248.t-com.hr (ls248.t-com.hr [195.29.150.237]) by ls405.t-com.hr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C194144086; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:28:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ls248.t-com.hr (ls248.t-com.hr [127.0.0.1]) by ls248.t-com.hr (Qmlai) with ESMTP id 07348D50051; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:28:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ls248.t-com.hr (ls248.t-com.hr [127.0.0.1]) by ls248.t-com.hr (Qmlai) with ESMTP id D96C2D5004A; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:28:23 +0200 (CEST) X-Envelope-Sender-Info: g5URFa92gX9K/Rg9VFA/rK7Af78qf1/z4pTs7sG3zdc6StkSH1j7CT0zJW9WjWDV X-Envelope-Sender: ivoras@fer.hr Received: from [10.0.0.100] (89-172-244-220.adsl.net.t-com.hr [89.172.244.220]) by ls248.t-com.hr (Qmali) with ESMTP id A9D305E011A; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:28:23 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <462B8D25.3000303@fer.hr> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:28:21 +0200 From: Ivan Voras User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pawel Jakub Dawidek References: <20070422123852.GA52622@garage.freebsd.pl> <462B83D7.1010905@fer.hr> <20070422162601.GD52622@garage.freebsd.pl> In-Reply-To: <20070422162601.GD52622@garage.freebsd.pl> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.3.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig15334923F454E68A4415D27D" Cc: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: gjournal & async X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:28:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig15334923F454E68A4415D27D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote: > On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 05:48:39PM +0200, Ivan Voras wrote: >> Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote: >>> On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 02:43:29AM +0200, Ivan Voras wrote: >>>> How does gjournal guarantee corectness if UFS is mounted async? AFAI= K >>>> the "async" handling of IO requests is done by the UFS, the writes a= re >>>> not rescheduled at the GEOM layer? >>> GJournal has some minimum knowledge about VFS. Before it does journal= >>> switch, it synchronize and suspends file system. This way we can be s= ure >>> everything is on disk in a consistent state. >> Thanks. So, this (async support) could actually work with other file >> systems, like ext2 and msdos? >=20 > Once gjournal is taught about them, yes. Then you're not interfacing in the VFS layer, you're hooking directly into UFS? --------------enig15334923F454E68A4415D27D Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGK40lldnAQVacBcgRAk0+AKC8dl5aqeSqbaBRxtPQfUCv5X6zfwCfTARi VNVd/5ktJpUy/QdChEj69bA= =wPSp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig15334923F454E68A4415D27D-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 22 16:46:39 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3335816A401 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:46:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: from mail.garage.freebsd.pl (arm132.internetdsl.tpnet.pl [83.17.198.132]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C86CE13C4BA for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:46:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pjd@garage.freebsd.pl) Received: by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 17D31487F2; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:46:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (public-gprs38729.centertel.pl [91.94.23.121]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.garage.freebsd.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61DBC45683; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:46:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:45:28 +0200 From: Pawel Jakub Dawidek To: Ivan Voras Message-ID: <20070422164528.GE52622@garage.freebsd.pl> References: <20070422123852.GA52622@garage.freebsd.pl> <462B83D7.1010905@fer.hr> <20070422162601.GD52622@garage.freebsd.pl> <462B8D25.3000303@fer.hr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="//IivP0gvsAy3Can" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <462B8D25.3000303@fer.hr> X-PGP-Key-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~pjd/pjd.asc X-OS: FreeBSD 7.0-CURRENT i386 User-Agent: mutt-ng/devel-r804 (FreeBSD) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on mail.garage.freebsd.pl X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL autolearn=no version=3.0.4 Cc: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: gjournal & async X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 16:46:39 -0000 --//IivP0gvsAy3Can Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 06:28:21PM +0200, Ivan Voras wrote: > Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 05:48:39PM +0200, Ivan Voras wrote: > >> Pawel Jakub Dawidek wrote: > >>> On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 02:43:29AM +0200, Ivan Voras wrote: > >>>> How does gjournal guarantee corectness if UFS is mounted async? AFAIK > >>>> the "async" handling of IO requests is done by the UFS, the writes a= re > >>>> not rescheduled at the GEOM layer? > >>> GJournal has some minimum knowledge about VFS. Before it does journal > >>> switch, it synchronize and suspends file system. This way we can be s= ure > >>> everything is on disk in a consistent state. > >> Thanks. So, this (async support) could actually work with other file > >> systems, like ext2 and msdos? > >=20 > > Once gjournal is taught about them, yes. >=20 > Then you're not interfacing in the VFS layer, you're hooking directly > into UFS? GJournal talks to VFS to sync/suspend file system, but it also needs to have some knowledge about file system to mark it as clean, so fsck won't complain. Look at sys/geom/journal/g_journal_ufs.c (dirty method is mostly not used, it is there for consistency and in case journal itself become broken/corrupted). --=20 Pawel Jakub Dawidek http://www.wheel.pl pjd@FreeBSD.org http://www.FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer Am I Evil? Yes, I Am! --//IivP0gvsAy3Can Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFGK5EoForvXbEpPzQRAtBpAKCFTSL8Dh7Uj8jgCuivm9R1hnms1gCgl4Tz dXlHRMaaAMxf9dR81VaA9ZQ= =8wfy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --//IivP0gvsAy3Can-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 22 18:46:49 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F16B16A401; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:46:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.172]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2579813C457; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:46:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin02-en2 [10.13.10.147]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/smtpout02/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3MIkkkL017665; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.5.252] (209-128-86-226.bayarea.net [209.128.86.226]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin02/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3MIkf2l029490 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:46:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marcel Moolenaar Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:45:39 -0700 To: Ivan Voras X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Brightmail-scanned: yes Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:46:49 -0000 On Apr 22, 2007, at 10:14 AM, Ivan Voras wrote: >> I've thought about that too, but again it's not a priority. It takes >> me long enough as it is to adopt the new world order that other >> features have to wait :-) > > Ok. Are you interested in finishing the remaining bits for GPT soon- > ish? :) I'm actually working on it now. I want the tool to be finished before 7.0. The problems are in the details (as usual). These are my requirements (FWIW): 1. It needs to have a friendly UI -> I'm using a curses based interface. 2. It needs to be used in scripts -> It needs a similar usage model as gpt(8). 3. It needs to replace gpt(8) -> see point 2. 3. It needs to be able to work on files -> construct a md device on the fly. 4. It should be usable by non-root (read-only operation and working on files owned by user as per point 3) -> suid Points 2 and 3 are important for our release process. -- Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 22 20:15:01 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2EB616A401; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:15:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.186]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50E313C4E9; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:15:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin02-en2 [10.13.10.147]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/smtpout16/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3MKEwWL015472; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.5.252] (209-128-86-226.bayarea.net [209.128.86.226]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin02/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3MKEtgw006839 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:14:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <40B9BC9D-FF08-4694-9DE1-890646C9992B@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marcel Moolenaar Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:13:53 -0700 To: Ivan Voras X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Brightmail-scanned: yes Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:15:02 -0000 On Apr 22, 2007, at 12:22 PM, Ivan Voras wrote: > Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > >> These are my requirements (FWIW): >> 1. It needs to have a friendly UI -> I'm using a curses based >> interface. > > Regarding this part: one of the possible side-effects of the installer > might be a GUI for disk partitioning. It's not a text-mode UI, but > maybe > we can avoid duplication of effort here :) I'm all ears. Even if we can't avoid some duplicate effort in the UI area, we should be able to share the backend logic. Also, I'm interested to learn about how you figured the UI to look like. It may be good, in case we can't share the UI, to have it look roughly the same? >> 2. It needs to be used in scripts -> It needs a similar usage >> model as >> gpt(8). >> 3. It needs to replace gpt(8) -> see point 2. > >> Points 2 and 3 are important for our release process. > Yes. As far as I can tell, they are also enough for today - the > rest are > useful, but not necessary "bells and whistles". I tend to agree. However, gpt(8) is the tool that works for today on ia64 and there's not even a tool for PowerPC. I don't feel I'm advancing anything if I replace gpt(8) with a tool that merely works for today. The g_part geom is designed to unify all partitioning schemes and I think that a unified tool is very appropriate. This means that I need to raise the bar if I want it to replace fdisk, bsdlabel and sunlabel in the future. Those tools have a UI for example. Also, the FreeBSD installer needs to be able to partition disks and it needs to be able to support all of our schemes. It is itself a unified tool for partitioning. So, doing more than the bare minimum is beneficial in various ways. That's why I'm having difficulty to just replace gpt(8). -- Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 22 20:59:26 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5265A16A401; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:59:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA6113C45B; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:59:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2A82085; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:59:22 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: 0.0/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on tim.des.no Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1EA207E; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:59:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5F05056B7; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:59:21 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: Marcel Moolenaar References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:59:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Marcel Moolenaar's message of "Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:45:39 -0700") Message-ID: <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:59:26 -0000 Marcel Moolenaar writes: > I'm actually working on it now. I want the tool to be finished > before 7.0. The problems are in the details (as usual). > > These are my requirements (FWIW): > 1. It needs to have a friendly UI -> I'm using a curses based interface. No, it doesn't. > 2. It needs to be used in scripts -> It needs a similar usage model as > gpt(8). > 3. It needs to replace gpt(8) -> see point 2. > 3. It needs to be able to work on files -> construct a md device on the > fly. No, it doesn't. That's what mdconfig is for. > 4. It should be usable by non-root (read-only operation and working on > files owned by user as per point 3) -> suid I don't really see why. It seems to me you're suffering from second system syndrome. Forget points 1, 3 and 4 and focus on getting the job done and rescuing what credibility you have left. If g_part implements all the necessary verbs, it should only take a few hours to write a geom(8) plugin for it. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 22 22:20:05 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAFC216A403; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:20:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.184]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF34E13C45B; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:20:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin02-en2 [10.13.10.147]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/smtpout14/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3MMK1EO020600; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.5.252] (209-128-86-226.bayarea.net [209.128.86.226]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin02/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3MMJw0k028805 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:19:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marcel Moolenaar Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:18:55 -0700 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Brightmail-scanned: yes Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:20:06 -0000 On Apr 22, 2007, at 1:59 PM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > It seems to me you're suffering from second system syndrome. Forget > points 1, 3 and 4 and focus on getting the job done and rescuing what > credibility you have left. LOL > If g_part implements all the necessary verbs, it should only take a > few hours to write a geom(8) plugin for it. Do it. Stop being an arrogant prick and put your money where your mouth is. Your input has so far only been good for a laugh, which doesn't really advance FreeBSD. Hell, you may actually end up being able to tell me you told me so. It seems to me that that's of great personal value to you. --=20 Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 22 23:45:41 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA8FC16A40E; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:45:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA10113C4C3; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:45:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 6D230A4A; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:28:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:28:18 -0500 To: Marcel Moolenaar Message-ID: <20070422232818.GA11479@soaustin.net> References: <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 23:45:41 -0000 On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 03:18:55PM -0700, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > Do it. Stop being an arrogant prick and put your money where your > mouth is. This mail should have not been sent. This is the second mail that I've read today that reflects badly on our community. Please go cool off before posting something like this again. mcl From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 23 07:09:11 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C3F16A403; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:09:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B742513C455; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:09:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B632083; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:09:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: 0.0/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on tim.des.no Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71530207E; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:09:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4710D5712; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:09:06 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: Marcel Moolenaar References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:09:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> (Marcel Moolenaar's message of "Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:18:55 -0700") Message-ID: <861wibin3h.fsf@dwp.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:09:11 -0000 Marcel Moolenaar writes: > On Apr 22, 2007, at 1:59 PM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > It seems to me you're suffering from second system syndrome. Forget > > points 1, 3 and 4 and focus on getting the job done and rescuing what > > credibility you have left. > > LOL > >> If g_part implements all the necessary verbs, it should only take a >> few hours to write a geom(8) plugin for it. > > Do it. Stop being an arrogant prick and put your money where your > mouth is. Your input has so far only been good for a laugh, which > doesn't really advance FreeBSD. Hell, you may actually end up > being able to tell me you told me so. It seems to me that that's > of great personal value to you. Marcel, my words may have been poorly chosen, but I've been using GPT for several years, and I've reported these issues (and others) to you several times over the course of those years and witnessed your complete lack of interest. Now you suddenly seem to realize GPT's shortcomings, but you still don't understand that the issue all along was your unwillingness or inability to follow the pattern established by our other GEOM classes. Consider further that Ivan is a SoC student working on a new FreeBSD installation and configuration tool which will offer graphical and curses interfaces to, amongst other things, disk partitioning (in fact, his mentor has asked him to focus primarily on the latter). He won't have an easy job of it if 1) there is no reliable way to configure GPT and 2) you trample all over his turf by insisting on implementing your own curses interface to g_part. I also question the wisdom of spending time on a curses interface specific to g_part when g_part is only a small piece of the GEOM puzzle. You seem hell-bent on increasing the cleft between g_gpt / g_part and our other GEOM classes. They should converge, not diverge. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 23 11:08:31 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A2416A409 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:08:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [69.147.83.40]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D56AA13C468 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:08:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (linimon@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l3NB8VKQ093110 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:08:31 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from linimon@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id l3NB8U81093106 for freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:08:30 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:08:30 GMT Message-Id: <200704231108.l3NB8U81093106@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: linimon set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Current problem reports assigned to you X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:08:32 -0000 Current FreeBSD problem reports Critical problems Serious problems S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o kern/73177 geom kldload geom_* causes panic due to memory exhaustion o kern/76538 geom [gbde] nfs-write on gbde partition stalls and continue o kern/83464 geom [geom] [patch] Unhandled malloc failures within libgeo o kern/84556 geom [geom] GBDE-encrypted swap causes panic at shutdown o kern/87544 geom [gbde] mmaping large files on a gbde filesystem deadlo o kern/89102 geom [geom_vfs] [panic] panic when forced unmount FS from u o bin/90093 geom fdisk(8) incapable of altering in-core geometry o kern/90582 geom [geom_mirror] [panic] Restore cause panic string (ffs_ o kern/98034 geom [geom] dereference of NULL pointer in acd_geom_detach o kern/104389 geom [geom] [patch] sys/geom/geom_dump.c doesn't encode XML 10 problems total. Non-critical problems S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o bin/78131 geom gbde "destroy" not working. o kern/79251 geom [2TB] newfs fails on 2.6TB gbde device o kern/94632 geom [geom] Kernel output resets input while GELI asks for f kern/105390 geom [geli] filesystem on a md backed by sparse file with s o kern/107707 geom [geom] [patch] add new class geom_xbox360 to slice up p bin/110705 geom gmirror control utility does not exit with correct exi 6 problems total. From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 23 16:34:01 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8308C16A409; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:34:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.175]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 664A513C45A; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:34:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin02-en2 [10.13.10.147]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/smtpout05/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3NGXrEt029385; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.5.252] (209-128-86-226.bayarea.net [209.128.86.226]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin02/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3NGXlIr008083 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:33:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <861wibin3h.fsf@dwp.des.no> References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> <861wibin3h.fsf@dwp.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <71073037-7FA3-4C51-9276-8AA7F42B95DE@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marcel Moolenaar Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:32:45 -0700 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Brightmail-scanned: yes Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:34:01 -0000 On Apr 23, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Marcel, my words may have been poorly chosen, but I've been using GPT > for several years, and I've reported these issues (and others) to you > several times over the course of those years and witnessed your > complete lack of interest. Yes, your words were poorly chosen and you continue to show poor judgement. I have exactly 1 thread in my mailbox where I discuss GPT with you and that problem has been resolved. I fail to see how that's several times over the course of years and I fail to see how that represents a complete lack of interest. What else did you send me mail about? > Now you suddenly seem to realize GPT's > shortcomings, but you still don't understand that the issue all along > was your unwillingness or inability to follow the pattern established > by our other GEOM classes. There's nothing sudden about my realizations, though it's apparent that it appears to you like that. It seems to underly your whole position in this regard. I've been working on GPT for a long time on and off (because I also have other things to work on) and slowly, but gradually, added the verbs, first to geom_gpt itself and then to it's replacement g_part. With 7.0 around the corner I do feel an increased sense of urgency, simply because I'd like it to be done by then. All I need is a partitioning tool... > Consider further that Ivan is a SoC student working on a new FreeBSD > installation and configuration tool which will offer graphical and > curses interfaces to, amongst other things, disk partitioning (in > fact, his mentor has asked him to focus primarily on the latter). I'm fully aware. I gave him my input, and told him it was just a thought. It's up to him to do something with it or not. > He > won't have an easy job of it if 1) there is no reliable way to > configure GPT and 2) you trample all over his turf by insisting on > implementing your own curses interface to g_part. I think you're making his job difficult by 1) spreading FUD and 2) interfering in an interesting and fruitful discussion I have with Ivan. If you actually bother to read the emails you refer to, then you should realize that I'm putting my cards on the table for anyone to see, so as to make sure that there's no duplicate effort and/or misunderstanding. It also means it's open for discussion and that I appreciate feedback and suggestions. AFAICT, Ivan and I were building mutual understanding, which is more than I can say for our little exchange. > I also question the wisdom of spending time on a curses interface > specific to g_part when g_part is only a small piece of the GEOM > puzzle. If you question the wisdom, then why do you insist on phrasing your questions as statements? All I find myself thinking when I see one of your "I don't see why ..." statements is that it must be really difficult to be so blind and that I can't help you with that. Put differently: I think you have no idea what I'm doing and so far I haven't seen anything in your behaviour that makes me question my perception in this matter. In fact, my opinions continue to be acknowledged. This obviously only increases my believe that I'm right. There may be wisdom in what you say, but you simply have not created a situation in which it will be received as such, or at all. > You seem hell-bent on increasing the cleft between g_gpt / > g_part and our other GEOM classes. They should converge, not diverge. See, I simply don't understand what you're trying to communicate here. I certainly don't see a question mark, so there's nothing being questioned and since I have no idea what you're talking about and given that you haven't so far left the impression that you do, I can only assume that you're mistaken. In an attempt to close the gap between us, let me ask you this: What's the cleft between g_part and the other GEOM classes? In what way do you think I'm hell-bent to increase that what I don't know? --=20 Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 23 17:20:13 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@hub.freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CA516A403 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:20:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [69.147.83.40]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEABA13C448 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:20:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (gnats@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l3NHKCJQ021117 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:20:12 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id l3NHKCNl021116; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:20:12 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:20:12 GMT Message-Id: <200704231720.l3NHKCNl021116@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org From: "Philip M. Gollucci" Cc: Subject: Re: kern/104389: [geom] [patch] sys/geom/geom_dump.c doesn't encode XML entities X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Philip M. Gollucci" List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:20:13 -0000 The following reply was made to PR kern/104389; it has been noted by GNATS. From: "Philip M. Gollucci" To: bug-followup@FreeBSD.org, dzs-pr@eagle.ul.net Cc: Subject: Re: kern/104389: [geom] [patch] sys/geom/geom_dump.c doesn't encode XML entities Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 10:11:58 -0700 Any word on this ? some kind of time-out ? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Philip M. Gollucci (pgollucci@p6m7g8.com) 323.219.4708 Consultant / http://p6m7g8.net/Resume Senior Software Engineer - TicketMaster - http://ticketmaster.com 1024D/EC88A0BF 0DE5 C55C 6BF3 B235 2DAB B89E 1324 9B4F EC88 A0BF Work like you don't need the money, love like you'll never get hurt, and dance like nobody's watching. From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 23 17:25:27 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862EF16A403 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:25:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@fer.hr) Received: from ls405.t-com.hr (ls405.t-com.hr [195.29.150.135]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C15713C4B0 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:25:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@fer.hr) Received: from ls248.t-com.hr (ls248.t-com.hr [195.29.150.237]) by ls405.t-com.hr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80276143C72; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:25:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ls248.t-com.hr (ls248.t-com.hr [127.0.0.1]) by ls248.t-com.hr (Qmlai) with ESMTP id 723C0D50051; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:25:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ls248.t-com.hr (ls248.t-com.hr [127.0.0.1]) by ls248.t-com.hr (Qmlai) with ESMTP id 50D4BD50047; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:25:23 +0200 (CEST) X-Envelope-Sender-Info: g5URFa92gX9K/Rg9VFA/rOCuJLWOGZNpH3JVrPSiLY06StkSH1j7CT0zJW9WjWDV X-Envelope-Sender: ivoras@fer.hr Received: from [10.0.0.100] (83-131-164-21.adsl.net.t-com.hr [83.131.164.21]) by ls248.t-com.hr (Qmali) with ESMTP id ADD2A5E00BE; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:25:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <462CEC00.2010304@fer.hr> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:25:20 +0200 From: Ivan Voras User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marcel Moolenaar References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> <861wibin3h.fsf@dwp.des.no> <71073037-7FA3-4C51-9276-8AA7F42B95DE@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <71073037-7FA3-4C51-9276-8AA7F42B95DE@mac.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.3.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig2CF4A03D73DDEE806DEA1753" Cc: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:25:27 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig2CF4A03D73DDEE806DEA1753 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marcel Moolenaar wrote: >> Consider further that Ivan is a SoC student working on a new FreeBSD >> installation and configuration tool which will offer graphical and >> curses interfaces to, amongst other things, disk partitioning (in >> fact, his mentor has asked him to focus primarily on the latter). >=20 > I'm fully aware. I gave him my input, and told him it was just a > thought. It's up to him to do something with it or not. >=20 >> He >> won't have an easy job of it if 1) there is no reliable way to >> configure GPT and 2) you trample all over his turf by insisting on >> implementing your own curses interface to g_part. >=20 > I think you're making his job difficult by 1) spreading FUD and 2) > interfering in an interesting and fruitful discussion I have with > Ivan. While I do enjoy a nice juicy flamewar occasionally (it's good for the soul :) ), I'm not seriously considering going into this one. Thus, I'll only add that if the GPT stuff is not finished soon-ish (few weeks, a month?), and this includes the replacement for gpt(8) and the boot loader, I'll gladly go with the venerable (and now mostly obsolete) mbr+bsdlabels. I'll be first to admit that yes, I could do at least the GEOM-related parts (and if I dust off my tasm books, the loader), I'll also say that, if I do that, there also a dozen other things I could do in the same way, which I won't in the time allotted. But, I believe the outlook is bright. AFAIK, the only thing currently missing for geom_part is the userland utility with verbs "add", "remove" and "show" (as well as the GEOM XML dump, please) - I don't see a reason why this utility couldn't be a GEOM class helper .so library, like for the other classes. Also, if we forgo EFI for now (because, let's admit it, it's not used in non-OSX x86 and AMD64 machines), I think the first stage MBR boot loader can be modified to chain load from GPT partitions. As an absolutely last resort, I could even go with the existing gpt(8) if the boot loader is done (and, I belive that des@ has said something about the loader, nudge, nudge :) ). > In an attempt to close the gap between us, let me ask you this: > What's the cleft between g_part and the other GEOM classes? > In what way do you think I'm hell-bent to increase that what > I don't know? I don't know the entire possible background to this claim, but I see two things: use of kobj and the "modify in-memory, then commit" operation. These two properties ARE different from the other classes, but I think this is mostly because almost all other classes were done by only two persons (i.e. there's not enough variety in the styles). It's different, but not horrible. --------------enig2CF4A03D73DDEE806DEA1753 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGLOwAldnAQVacBcgRAsGfAJ47iU8byJo3N1O4ImnXqghIKvsEaACgrkzx sSsBdaqKF7NnI5T6M/cqfQ0= =PFC1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig2CF4A03D73DDEE806DEA1753-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 23 18:18:41 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E047D16A400 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:18:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.183]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F0113C43E for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:18:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/smtpout13/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3NIIXmH012720; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.24.104.109] (natint3.juniper.net [66.129.224.36]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin08/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3NIITYg011173 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:18:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <462CEC00.2010304@fer.hr> References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> <861wibin3h.fsf@dwp.des.no> <71073037-7FA3-4C51-9276-8AA7F42B95DE@mac.com> <462CEC00.2010304@fer.hr> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <09A66888-CB75-42B7-878B-0FB71DA36D32@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marcel Moolenaar Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:17:27 -0700 To: Ivan Voras X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Brightmail-scanned: yes Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:18:41 -0000 On Apr 23, 2007, at 10:25 AM, Ivan Voras wrote: > But, I believe the outlook is bright. AFAIK, the only thing currently > missing for geom_part is the userland utility with verbs "add", > "remove" > and "show" (as well as the GEOM XML dump, please) .. and create, delete and destroy :-) Yes, the tool uses the GEOM XML to figure out the configuration and g_part will put all it's information in the XML. It's conforming to established mechanisms. > - I don't see a reason > why this utility couldn't be a GEOM class helper .so library, like for > the other classes. It could actually and it would be a good way to implement support for scripting that way. I haven't spent much time on that yet as there hasn't been any interest. I implemented gpt(8) in that manner when GPT was still using the generic slicer code. Hence the command-line interface. The only feedback I received was negative, so I didn't think people would be happy to see me do exactly the same thing. Would a GEOM help class be of use to you? > Also, if we forgo EFI for now (because, let's admit > it, it's not used in non-OSX x86 and AMD64 machines), It is, actually: ia64. EFI was specifically designed for ia64, with the intention to be a replacement for the BIOS on non- legacy i386 machines. >> In an attempt to close the gap between us, let me ask you this: >> What's the cleft between g_part and the other GEOM classes? >> In what way do you think I'm hell-bent to increase that what >> I don't know? > > I don't know the entire possible background to this claim, but I > see two > things: use of kobj and the "modify in-memory, then commit" operation. KOBJ is the de facto standard way to implement interfaces. The interface in this case is between the generic partitioning code and the per-scheme code that deals with the actual on-disk representation. The in-memory modify with commit is there to support sysinstall as well as to bridge the gap between the elementary operations and the need for atomic compound operations. For example: The GPT partition code support the legacy FreeBSD slice with BSD label. It's supported to allow migrating from MBR+BSD to GPT+BSD, which we needed in the early days of the ia64 port. GPT+BSD creates the same device nodes as MBR+BSD, so it is possible to do it in place. In fact, it's theoretically possible to do it with partitions mounted, because all that changes is the on-disk representation. However, to migrate a MBR to BPT without a special verb for it would require a sequence of delete verbs, followed by destroy, create and a sequence of add verbs. These verbs together need to appear as a single atomic operation to the kernel. This, as I said with sysinstall in mind, let me to implement the in-memory update with commit (or undo/revert). The worst that can happen is that it ends up being an unused feature. You can always commit after each verb, In fact, I've put everything in place to allow each verb to be followed by an implicit commit by way of the flags. The future will tell us what we end up using or what was really needed. The implementation is intended to provide all the flexibility to implement something good, useful and user-friendly. So, there are good (in my opinion at least) reasons behind what I do. The design is much more elaborate and complete than some (or many?) think. And it almost appears that the adoption of past, current and future practices is exactly what makes people think that there's a cleft or a lack of design. This, I think, can only mean that the status quo is much more ad hoc than we like to think it is and opinions change faster than we all like to admit. Ahhh, the joys of human fickleness and fallibility :-) -- Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 23 18:32:58 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0873716A415; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:32:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE8F13C4E1; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:32:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B4712083; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:32:53 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: 0.0/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on tim.des.no Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23AC3207E; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:32:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 009FD5781; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:32:52 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: Marcel Moolenaar References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> <861wibin3h.fsf@dwp.des.no> <71073037-7FA3-4C51-9276-8AA7F42B95DE@mac.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:32:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: <71073037-7FA3-4C51-9276-8AA7F42B95DE@mac.com> (Marcel Moolenaar's message of "Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:32:45 -0700") Message-ID: <86y7kjrlez.fsf@dwp.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:32:58 -0000 Marcel Moolenaar writes: > On Apr 23, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > Marcel, my words may have been poorly chosen, but I've been using GPT > > for several years, and I've reported these issues (and others) to you > > several times over the course of those years and witnessed your > > complete lack of interest. > Yes, your words were poorly chosen and you continue to show poor > judgement. I have exactly 1 thread in my mailbox where I discuss > GPT with you and that problem has been resolved. Yes, it was eventually resolved. You ignored my initial report. I bugged you about it, and we had a fairly fruitful conversation during which I pinpointed the exact change which had broken GPT. That was five months - to the day - before the bug, an overly-restrictive sanity check which prevented GEOM_GPT from recognizing its own GPTs, was finally fixed. > I fail to see how that's several times over the course of years > and I fail to see how that represents a complete lack of interest. > > What else did you send me mail about? The fact that it's not possible to view or modify the partition table while partitions are mounted. > In an attempt to close the gap between us, let me ask you this: > What's the cleft between g_part and the other GEOM classes? > In what way do you think I'm hell-bent to increase that what > I don't know? I should have said "the gap between $GPT and other GEOM classes", where $GPT is "whichever GEOM class currently implements GPT support". We have a fairly large number of GEOM classes, and right now they fall into two categories: 1) those that are configured using a geom(8) plugin: gcache, gconcat, geli, gjournal, glabel, gmirror, gmultipath, gnop, graid3, gshsec, gstripe 2) those that aren't: $GPT, gbde and gvinum (there's a third category - GEOM classes which replace legacy code and interface with legacy applications such as fdisk(8) and bsdlabel(8) - but it isn't relevant here) The fact that GEOM_GPT was in the second category was understandable given that it was written two years before geom(8), but now that we *do* have geom(8) I believe it is in everyone's interest to use it. Yes, *your* interests as well, because it really *is* that easy to write a geom(8) plugin if your class implements the necessary verbs; you'll spend less time on the code than on the man page. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 23 18:37:51 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EE4416A4CA for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:37:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@fer.hr) Received: from ls405.t-com.hr (ls405.t-com.hr [195.29.150.135]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D860513C465 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:37:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivoras@fer.hr) Received: from ls248.t-com.hr (ls248.t-com.hr [195.29.150.237]) by ls405.t-com.hr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6125D143B10; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:37:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ls248.t-com.hr (ls248.t-com.hr [127.0.0.1]) by ls248.t-com.hr (Qmlai) with ESMTP id 53E7CD5004A; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:37:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ls248.t-com.hr (ls248.t-com.hr [127.0.0.1]) by ls248.t-com.hr (Qmlai) with ESMTP id 3E56BD50047; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:37:49 +0200 (CEST) X-Envelope-Sender-Info: g5URFa92gX9K/Rg9VFA/rOCuJLWOGZNpH3JVrPSiLY06StkSH1j7CT0zJW9WjWDV X-Envelope-Sender: ivoras@fer.hr Received: from [10.0.0.100] (83-131-164-21.adsl.net.t-com.hr [83.131.164.21]) by ls248.t-com.hr (Qmali) with ESMTP id 792435E020D; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:37:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <462CFCF4.90505@fer.hr> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:37:40 +0200 From: Ivan Voras User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marcel Moolenaar References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> <861wibin3h.fsf@dwp.des.no> <71073037-7FA3-4C51-9276-8AA7F42B95DE@mac.com> <462CEC00.2010304@fer.hr> <09A66888-CB75-42B7-878B-0FB71DA36D32@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <09A66888-CB75-42B7-878B-0FB71DA36D32@mac.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.3.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig7F4CB8663A1A934B6B27CBC1" Cc: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:37:51 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig7F4CB8663A1A934B6B27CBC1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marcel Moolenaar wrote: >> - I don't see a reason >> why this utility couldn't be a GEOM class helper .so library, like for= >> the other classes. >=20 > It could actually and it would be a good way to implement support for > scripting that way. I haven't spent much time on that yet as there > hasn't been any interest. I implemented gpt(8) in that manner when > GPT was still using the generic slicer code. Hence the command-line > interface. The only feedback I received was negative, so I didn't > think people would be happy to see me do exactly the same thing. I was happy with it until I discovered I cannot modify the partition table :) Actually, I didn't believe this would be a "popular" feature myself, until, for various and completely unrelated reasons, I found myself needing to do so on two different machines. I think people were complaining mostly about this part, not on the command-line UI. (If it were about UI, the fdisk and bsdlabel "user intefaces" would long be dead and buried, at a crossroads, with wooden stakes in them). > Would a GEOM help class be of use to you? Yes, then I could have two options: either script the command-line utility or, possibly, try and hook directly into the .so helper library (must see how much infrastructure code this way of usage needs). (btw. technically it's not "GEOM help class" - it's a dynamic link library which has some data structures and function entry points exported. See for example http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/sbin/geom/class/label/geom_labe= l.c?rev=3D1.9 - this is a small one. The geom(8) program dynamically links these libraries when needed, and uses them to perform actions related to GEOM classes. These helper libraries can either do things themselves (in userland) - like labeling a provider, or pass the verb to the kernel - I'm not sure a combination of these is possible). >> Also, if we forgo EFI for now (because, let's admit >> it, it's not used in non-OSX x86 and AMD64 machines), >=20 > It is, actually: ia64. EFI was specifically designed for ia64, > with the intention to be a replacement for the BIOS on non- > legacy i386 machines. I know, but if we pretend those 2 or 3 Itaniums running FreeBSD don't exist, we can cover 99.99*% of the market :) Seriously: EFI support must stay for the systems that need EFI to boot, it's not needed for those that don't. i386 and amd64 machines need GPT without EFI. > The in-memory modify with commit is there to support sysinstall > as well as to bridge the gap between the elementary operations > and the need for atomic compound operations. For example: The > GPT partition code support the legacy FreeBSD slice with BSD > label. It's supported to allow migrating from MBR+BSD to GPT+BSD, > which we needed in the early days of the ia64 port. GPT+BSD > creates the same device nodes as MBR+BSD, so it is possible to > do it in place. In fact, it's theoretically possible to do it > with partitions mounted, because all that changes is the on-disk > representation. However, to migrate a MBR to BPT without a > special verb for it would require a sequence of delete verbs, > followed by destroy, create and a sequence of add verbs. These > verbs together need to appear as a single atomic operation to > the kernel. This, as I said with sysinstall in mind, let me to > implement the in-memory update with commit (or undo/revert). I see. > The worst that can happen is that it ends up being an unused > feature. You can always commit after each verb, In fact, I've > put everything in place to allow each verb to be followed by > an implicit commit by way of the flags. The future will tell > us what we end up using or what was really needed. The > implementation is intended to provide all the flexibility to > implement something good, useful and user-friendly. Excellent. > So, there are good (in my opinion at least) reasons behind > what I do. The design is much more elaborate and complete than > some (or many?) think. And it almost appears that the adoption > of past, current and future practices is exactly what makes > people think that there's a cleft or a lack of design. This, > I think, can only mean that the status quo is much more ad hoc > than we like to think it is and opinions change faster than > we all like to admit. These things are helped by getting fresh people in the project :) --------------enig7F4CB8663A1A934B6B27CBC1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGLPz6ldnAQVacBcgRAnVnAJ0QR5xA10Nc4B4gQaB0/jP5WP3u3wCgtPca 20CTGKWBUN6EHuqIVxxfmjY= =jvsp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig7F4CB8663A1A934B6B27CBC1-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 23 19:30:53 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80FD16A402; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:30:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.183]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC40813C448; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:30:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/smtpout13/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3NJUhbw024798; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.24.104.109] (natint3.juniper.net [66.129.224.36]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin08/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3NJUaGv018280 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:30:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <86y7kjrlez.fsf@dwp.des.no> References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> <861wibin3h.fsf@dwp.des.no> <71073037-7FA3-4C51-9276-8AA7F42B95DE@mac.com> <86y7kjrlez.fsf@dwp.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <04E5B5FF-7B1D-4001-81C6-D63F537191A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marcel Moolenaar Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:29:34 -0700 To: des@des.no (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Brightmail-scanned: yes Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:30:54 -0000 On Apr 23, 2007, at 11:32 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Marcel Moolenaar writes: >> On Apr 23, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >>> Marcel, my words may have been poorly chosen, but I've been using =20= >>> GPT >>> for several years, and I've reported these issues (and others) to =20= >>> you >>> several times over the course of those years and witnessed your >>> complete lack of interest. >> Yes, your words were poorly chosen and you continue to show poor >> judgement. I have exactly 1 thread in my mailbox where I discuss >> GPT with you and that problem has been resolved. > > Yes, it was eventually resolved. You ignored my initial report. I > bugged you about it, and we had a fairly fruitful conversation during > which I pinpointed the exact change which had broken GPT. That was > five months - to the day - before the bug, an overly-restrictive > sanity check which prevented GEOM_GPT from recognizing its own GPTs, > was finally fixed. > >> I fail to see how that's several times over the course of years >> and I fail to see how that represents a complete lack of interest. >> >> What else did you send me mail about? > > The fact that it's not possible to view or modify the partition table > while partitions are mounted. I told you before: To view use the -r option to gpt(8) to open the device read-only. To modify: set kern.geom.debugflags to 16 first and run gpt(8). I don't claim that it's ideal or perfect, I only claim that you can do what you want in a way that suitable until I'm done with my work. >> In an attempt to close the gap between us, let me ask you this: >> What's the cleft between g_part and the other GEOM classes? >> In what way do you think I'm hell-bent to increase that what >> I don't know? > We have a fairly large number of GEOM classes, and right now they fall > into two categories: > > 1) those that are configured using a geom(8) plugin: gcache, gconcat, > geli, gjournal, glabel, gmirror, gmultipath, gnop, graid3, gshsec, > gstripe > > 2) those that aren't: $GPT, gbde and gvinum > > (there's a third category - GEOM classes which replace legacy code and > interface with legacy applications such as fdisk(8) and bsdlabel(8) - > but it isn't relevant here) > The fact that GEOM_GPT was in the second category was understandable > given that it was written two years before geom(8), but now that we > *do* have geom(8) I believe it is in everyone's interest to use it. I see. So with cleft you really mean that you'd like to see g_part move from category 2 or 3 to category 1. That surely is a poor choice of words. I'm not at all opposed to add support for geom(8). See also my email to Ivan. --=20 Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 23 19:53:27 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C9616A400 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:53:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.176]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38BB913C457 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:53:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/smtpout06/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3NJrMPD014261; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.24.104.109] (natint3.juniper.net [66.129.224.36]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin08/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id l3NJrKXM029989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:53:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <462CFCF4.90505@fer.hr> References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> <861wibin3h.fsf@dwp.des.no> <71073037-7FA3-4C51-9276-8AA7F42B95DE@mac.com> <462CEC00.2010304@fer.hr> <09A66888-CB75-42B7-878B-0FB71DA36D32@mac.com> <462CFCF4.90505@fer.hr> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marcel Moolenaar Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:52:18 -0700 To: Ivan Voras X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Brightmail-scanned: yes Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:53:27 -0000 On Apr 23, 2007, at 11:37 AM, Ivan Voras wrote: > Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > >>> - I don't see a reason >>> why this utility couldn't be a GEOM class helper .so library, >>> like for >>> the other classes. >> >> It could actually and it would be a good way to implement support for >> scripting that way. I haven't spent much time on that yet as there >> hasn't been any interest. I implemented gpt(8) in that manner when >> GPT was still using the generic slicer code. Hence the command-line >> interface. The only feedback I received was negative, so I didn't >> think people would be happy to see me do exactly the same thing. > > I was happy with it until I discovered I cannot modify the partition > table :) You mean that setting kern.geom.debugflags=16 doesn't work? > Actually, I didn't believe this would be a "popular" feature myself, > until, for various and completely unrelated reasons, I found myself > needing to do so on two different machines. I think people were > complaining mostly about this part, not on the command-line UI. As time passed people started to complain more about the lack of using verbs to do the partitioning. That's just the nature of things and I'm working on it. >> Would a GEOM help class be of use to you? > > Yes, then I could have two options: either script the command-line > utility or, possibly, try and hook directly into the .so helper > library > (must see how much infrastructure code this way of usage needs). Check out src/tools/regression/geom_gpt. There's a little C program that converts the arguments into a gctl structure. It's used to test the verbs. It was that simple to manipulate partitions with geom_gpt and it's that simple to do the same with the g_part class. Only minor changes were made to support multiple partitioning schemes (see the gpt branch in Perforce). You can partition disks that way, so it should be really simple overall. > (btw. technically it's not "GEOM help class" - it's a dynamic link > library which has some data structures and function entry points > exported. See for example > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/sbin/geom/class/label/ > geom_label.c?rev=1.9 > - this is a small one. The geom(8) program dynamically links these > libraries when needed, and uses them to perform actions related to > GEOM > classes. These helper libraries can either do things themselves (in > userland) - like labeling a provider, or pass the verb to the kernel - > I'm not sure a combination of these is possible). I definitely can take look. >>> Also, if we forgo EFI for now (because, let's admit >>> it, it's not used in non-OSX x86 and AMD64 machines), >> >> It is, actually: ia64. EFI was specifically designed for ia64, >> with the intention to be a replacement for the BIOS on non- >> legacy i386 machines. > > I know, but if we pretend those 2 or 3 Itaniums running FreeBSD don't > exist, we can cover 99.99*% of the market :) Yeah, yeah, rub it in :-) >> So, there are good (in my opinion at least) reasons behind >> what I do. The design is much more elaborate and complete than >> some (or many?) think. And it almost appears that the adoption >> of past, current and future practices is exactly what makes >> people think that there's a cleft or a lack of design. This, >> I think, can only mean that the status quo is much more ad hoc >> than we like to think it is and opinions change faster than >> we all like to admit. > > These things are helped by getting fresh people in the project :) True, but that's a good thing. If it weren't for them we'd not be where we are now. It's not a bad thing that opinions change or that new ideas are being tabled at all. But it definitely helps if people can remember that implementation of the ideas and/or opinions can only happen after those ideas or opinions come into existence, so the implementation will always lag behind. Sometimes that's measured in years. -- Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 23 20:05:39 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44BAC16A469 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:05:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gcubfg-freebsd-geom@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA92A13C45D for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:05:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gcubfg-freebsd-geom@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Hg4lT-00044n-JB for freebsd-geom@freebsd.org; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 22:03:59 +0200 Received: from 83-131-164-21.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([83.131.164.21]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 22:03:59 +0200 Received: from ivoras by 83-131-164-21.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 22:03:59 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 22:03:45 +0200 Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <86wt076k7u.fsf@dwp.des.no> <619464E1-1CB4-4CFC-9ECF-7FC90DC24A20@mac.com> <863b2u18hz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <4629C2FE.9030301@samsco.org> <91BC1CF6-6C72-4263-A99A-C24FC209586E@mac.com> <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> <861wibin3h.fsf@dwp.des.no> <71073037-7FA3-4C51-9276-8AA7F42B95DE@mac.com> <462CEC00.2010304@fer.hr> <09A66888-CB75-42B7-878B-0FB71DA36D32@mac.com> <462CFCF4.90505@fer.hr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig1B5EF20F5A012466D263DED3" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 83-131-164-21.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.3.0 Sender: news Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:05:39 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig1B5EF20F5A012466D263DED3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marcel Moolenaar wrote: >> >> I was happy with it until I discovered I cannot modify the partitio= n >> >> table :) > > > > You mean that setting kern.geom.debugflags=3D16 doesn't work? It works, yes, but at the time I didn't know about it. > > Check out src/tools/regression/geom_gpt. There's a little C program > > that converts the arguments into a gctl structure. It's used to test > > the verbs. It was that simple to manipulate partitions with geom_gpt > > and it's that simple to do the same with the g_part class. Only > > minor changes were made to support multiple partitioning schemes > > (see the gpt branch in Perforce). > > > > You can partition disks that way, so it should be really simple > > overall. Thanks, I'll check it out. --------------enig1B5EF20F5A012466D263DED3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGLREhldnAQVacBcgRAgjJAJ9Dvy5LS63A6MvrYWprAV77Zjf08wCg65qH 9r8wEWByuMza9X3Oy44G5eE= =BflL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig1B5EF20F5A012466D263DED3-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 23 20:24:08 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D4416A404 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:24:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDF6A13C489 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:24:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7CB0173B4; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:24:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3NKO4no004521; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:24:04 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Marcel Moolenaar From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:52:18 MST." Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:24:04 +0000 Message-ID: <4520.1177359844@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Ivan Voras , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:24:08 -0000 >As time passed people started to complain more about the lack of using >verbs to do the partitioning. That's just the nature of things and I'm >working on it. Before you guys rip each other another one, I just want to chime in with some background: For the existing classes, MBR, BSD and PC98 it was necessary to emulate enough of the old ABI that it was simpler to implement the "here is your completely new metadata as a binary blob" style change ioctls. Doing it this style has some advantages, most notably that you can reuse the 'taste' function to validate the proposed metadata, if you arrange it the right way. That means the minimum amount of code in the kernel and the majority of it in a seldom invoked executable. One disadvantage is that it is very messy for a class like MBREXT here metatada is all over the media. (That's why we have never really supported editing extended partitions, nobody wanted to deal with that mess.) Compared to this is the verb-based style, which puts (much) more of the complexity in the kernel with the potential benefit that one could conceiveably use a unified userland tool for vastly different classes, because now the kernel code knows all the magic details. Finally, one should realize, that we are talking about an API/ABI that seldom, if ever, gets invoked more than once for a given system, and that is during installation where the system already run a highly magic application, for that very reason. I find it counterintuitive to put the complexity into the kernel for a so seldomly used API/ABI, so I _personally_ prefer the "here is your metadata as a binary blob" style. However, As architect of GEOM I have sworn not to dictate people how they write their classes or what their classes do or should do, apart from the fundamental GEOM architecture and interfaces, which are pretty well protected by my liberal application of KASSERT. But it would clearly be an advantage if all the slicers used or at least supported the same style... Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 24 03:24:53 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30CDE16A403 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:24:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wilkinsa@obelix.dsto.defence.gov.au) Received: from digger1.defence.gov.au (digger1.defence.gov.au [203.5.217.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D8C13C43E for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:24:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wilkinsa@obelix.dsto.defence.gov.au) Received: from ednmsw510.dsto.defence.gov.au (ednmsw510.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.68.11]) by digger1.defence.gov.au (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3O2mILO002836 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:18:18 +0930 (CST) Received: from ednex510.dsto.defence.gov.au (ednex510.dsto.defence.gov.au) by ednmsw510.dsto.defence.gov.au (Clearswift SMTPRS 5.2.5) with ESMTP id for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:27:25 +0930 Received: from obelix.dsto.defence.gov.au ([203.6.60.208]) by ednex510.dsto.defence.gov.au with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:27:24 +0930 Received: from obelix.dsto.defence.gov.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by obelix.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3O2v1LC060133 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:57:01 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from wilkinsa@obelix.dsto.defence.gov.au) Received: (from wilkinsa@localhost) by obelix.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id l3O2uujT060132 for freebsd-geom@freebsd.org; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:56:56 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from wilkinsa) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:56:56 +0800 From: "Wilkinson, Alex" To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20070424025655.GA60024@obelix.dsto.defence.gov.au> References: <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> <861wibin3h.fsf@dwp.des.no> <71073037-7FA3-4C51-9276-8AA7F42B95DE@mac.com> <462CEC00.2010304@fer.hr> <09A66888-CB75-42B7-878B-0FB71DA36D32@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <09A66888-CB75-42B7-878B-0FB71DA36D32@mac.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.14 (2007-02-12) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Apr 2007 02:57:25.0162 (UTC) FILETIME=[496090A0:01C7861C] X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: SMEX-7.0.0.1526-3.6.1039-15128.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--0.296300-8.000000-31 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:24:53 -0000 0n Mon, Apr 23, 2007 at 11:17:27AM -0700, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: >>Also, if we forgo EFI for now (because, let's admit >>it, it's not used in non-OSX x86 and AMD64 machines), > >It is, actually: ia64. EFI was specifically designed for ia64, >with the intention to be a replacement for the BIOS on non- >legacy i386 machines. Ok, not knowing much about GPT and EFI but learning bits and pieces from just reading this thread I have one question - How long before we will see the BIOS disappear and EFI move into the x86 world ? Can you even buy x86 motherboards that are EFI now ? -aW IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES ACT 1914. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact the sender and delete the email. From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 24 10:07:42 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39BD816A406 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:07:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gcubfg-freebsd-geom@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E369413C4B0 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:07:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gcubfg-freebsd-geom@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HgHvq-00040Q-UR for freebsd-geom@freebsd.org; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:07:34 +0200 Received: from lara.cc.fer.hr ([161.53.72.113]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:07:34 +0200 Received: from ivoras by lara.cc.fer.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:07:34 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:07:15 +0200 Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <86irboi0ra.fsf@dwp.des.no> <3383A397-6A95-4546-841D-CF17B98A797C@mac.com> <861wibin3h.fsf@dwp.des.no> <71073037-7FA3-4C51-9276-8AA7F42B95DE@mac.com> <462CEC00.2010304@fer.hr> <09A66888-CB75-42B7-878B-0FB71DA36D32@mac.com> <20070424025655.GA60024@obelix.dsto.defence.gov.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigDAC0A1B8BD02DCF848CB9B87" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: lara.cc.fer.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20060911) In-Reply-To: <20070424025655.GA60024@obelix.dsto.defence.gov.au> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Sender: news Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:07:42 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigDAC0A1B8BD02DCF848CB9B87 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wilkinson, Alex wrote: > Can you even buy x86 motherboards > that are EFI now ? Yes, if your bank account is named 'Apple' :) --------------enigDAC0A1B8BD02DCF848CB9B87 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGLdbZldnAQVacBcgRAt72AKDuOlNOy5Bn8hmv1UBQarAt/JfTwQCg8ixp v7iQnEdvRGvU3e7uFvy+hOE= =d9Ka -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigDAC0A1B8BD02DCF848CB9B87-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 24 14:00:14 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@hub.freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47E2C16A402 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:00:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [69.147.83.40]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1DFC13C45B for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:00:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (gnats@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l3OE0DTM025402 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:00:13 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id l3OE0Df2025399; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:00:13 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:00:13 GMT Message-Id: <200704241400.l3OE0Df2025399@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.org From: Dennis Berger Cc: Subject: Re: kern/104389: [geom] [patch] sys/geom/geom_dump.c doesn't encode XML entities X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Dennis Berger List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:00:14 -0000 The following reply was made to PR kern/104389; it has been noted by GNATS. From: Dennis Berger To: bug-followup@FreeBSD.org, dzs-pr@dzs.fx.org Cc: Subject: Re: kern/104389: [geom] [patch] sys/geom/geom_dump.c doesn't encode XML entities Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:31:48 +0200 Is this fixed? Any comment from a committer? regards, Dennis From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 24 21:07:13 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479D516A401 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:07:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gcubfg-freebsd-geom@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0292B13C45E for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:07:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gcubfg-freebsd-geom@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HgSDu-0003ex-UA for freebsd-geom@freebsd.org; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:06:54 +0200 Received: from 89-172-244-19.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([89.172.244.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:06:54 +0200 Received: from ivoras by 89-172-244-19.adsl.net.t-com.hr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:06:54 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org From: Ivan Voras Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:06:24 +0200 Lines: 40 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig34BAFC6B6EA0C3DEF3B7D4ED" X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89-172-244-19.adsl.net.t-com.hr User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.3.0 Sender: news Subject: gvirstor final (hopefully) X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:07:13 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig34BAFC6B6EA0C3DEF3B7D4ED Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With the recently implemented BIO delaying in gvirstor (that is, IOs will be delayed unconditionally when there's not enough physical space in the virstor device, until more providers are added), I think gvirstor is ready to be committed to the CVS tree. So, interested people are encouraged to test it once again, and see if they can break it in new and exciting ways :) gvirstor is available as a simple tarball at http://wiki.freebsd.org/gvirstor (read the README before trying) and in the Perforce (branch ivoras_gvirstor). If all turns out well, I'll have to find someone to get it committed. (gvirstor is a geom "overcommit" class - allows creation of virtual storage devices of arbitrary sizes backed by limited physical storage. It has been sponsored by Google in Google Summer of Code 2006.) --------------enig34BAFC6B6EA0C3DEF3B7D4ED Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGLnFYldnAQVacBcgRAq67AKDhBE6Mn6dyL3RjRNyEO2FNLKQQewCeMLGN hLSTRVC5ObLZ0WpbwXVGkgM= =jBLy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig34BAFC6B6EA0C3DEF3B7D4ED-- From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 26 22:14:30 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4872C16A401; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:14:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (66-23-211-162.clients.speedfactory.net [66.23.211.162]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C51CE13C455; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:14:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3QLlapd078120; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:47:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:40:21 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 References: <52686.1177091835@critter.freebsd.dk> <46292461.5090503@samsco.org> <462928C7.8090400@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <462928C7.8090400@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200704261740.22987.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:47:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.3/3165/Thu Apr 26 09:03:24 2007 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Maxim Sobolev , Scott Long , Poul-Henning Kamp , Ivan Voras , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:14:30 -0000 On Friday 20 April 2007 04:55:35 pm Maxim Sobolev wrote: > Scott Long wrote: > > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> In message , Ivan Voras writes: > >> > >>> Currently, the FreeBSD default is classic BSD partitions on top of > >>> MSDOS partitions, and there are a couple of inconvenient things about > >>> this arrangement: > >> > >> The BSD partitioning should be discontinued as fast and firmly > >> as possible. By all means go GPT. > >> > > > > An i386/amd64 bootloader needs to be written that can understand GPT. > > My understanding is that the ia64 EFI/GPT loader has very few reusable > > bits. > > It probably crazy idea, but I wonder if it's feasible to have > "mini-GEOM" layer in loader, so that it's possible to use existing GEOM > classes codebase there with little or no modifications. The loader is the easy part. boot1/2 is the hard one. :( You need both an EFI loader, and a non-EFI bootstrap to load a non-EFI loader that can grok GPT for the non-EFI case where we still want to use GPT. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 26 22:16:25 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A19F16A403; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:16:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC5813C465; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:16:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from phobos.samsco.home (phobos.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3QMGIRW023089; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:16:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <463124A3.6070809@samsco.org> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:16:03 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.2pre) Gecko/20070111 SeaMonkey/1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin References: <52686.1177091835@critter.freebsd.dk> <46292461.5090503@samsco.org> <462928C7.8090400@FreeBSD.org> <200704261740.22987.jhb@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <200704261740.22987.jhb@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]); Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:16:19 -0600 (MDT) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.5 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: Maxim Sobolev , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:16:25 -0000 John Baldwin wrote: > On Friday 20 April 2007 04:55:35 pm Maxim Sobolev wrote: >> Scott Long wrote: >>> Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>>> In message , Ivan Voras writes: >>>> >>>>> Currently, the FreeBSD default is classic BSD partitions on top of >>>>> MSDOS partitions, and there are a couple of inconvenient things about >>>>> this arrangement: >>>> The BSD partitioning should be discontinued as fast and firmly >>>> as possible. By all means go GPT. >>>> >>> An i386/amd64 bootloader needs to be written that can understand GPT. >>> My understanding is that the ia64 EFI/GPT loader has very few reusable >>> bits. >> It probably crazy idea, but I wonder if it's feasible to have >> "mini-GEOM" layer in loader, so that it's possible to use existing GEOM >> classes codebase there with little or no modifications. > > The loader is the easy part. boot1/2 is the hard one. :( You need both an > EFI loader, and a non-EFI bootstrap to load a non-EFI loader that can grok > GPT for the non-EFI case where we still want to use GPT. > Are there real-world PC BIOS's that understand GPT but aren't EFI-based? Scott From owner-freebsd-geom@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 26 22:37:16 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2A4616A400; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:37:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (66-23-211-162.clients.speedfactory.net [66.23.211.162]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3115B13C489; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:37:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l3QMbCWB078476; Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:37:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: Scott Long Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:35:42 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 References: <52686.1177091835@critter.freebsd.dk> <200704261740.22987.jhb@freebsd.org> <463124A3.6070809@samsco.org> In-Reply-To: <463124A3.6070809@samsco.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200704261835.44220.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:37:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.3/3165/Thu Apr 26 09:03:24 2007 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Maxim Sobolev , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Ivan Voras , freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPT as default? X-BeenThere: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: GEOM-specific discussions and implementations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:37:16 -0000 On Thursday 26 April 2007 06:16:03 pm Scott Long wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: > > On Friday 20 April 2007 04:55:35 pm Maxim Sobolev wrote: > >> Scott Long wrote: > >>> Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >>>> In message , Ivan Voras writes: > >>>> > >>>>> Currently, the FreeBSD default is classic BSD partitions on top of > >>>>> MSDOS partitions, and there are a couple of inconvenient things about > >>>>> this arrangement: > >>>> The BSD partitioning should be discontinued as fast and firmly > >>>> as possible. By all means go GPT. > >>>> > >>> An i386/amd64 bootloader needs to be written that can understand GPT. > >>> My understanding is that the ia64 EFI/GPT loader has very few reusable > >>> bits. > >> It probably crazy idea, but I wonder if it's feasible to have > >> "mini-GEOM" layer in loader, so that it's possible to use existing GEOM > >> classes codebase there with little or no modifications. > > > > The loader is the easy part. boot1/2 is the hard one. :( You need both an > > EFI loader, and a non-EFI bootstrap to load a non-EFI loader that can grok > > GPT for the non-EFI case where we still want to use GPT. > > > > Are there real-world PC BIOS's that understand GPT but aren't EFI-based? GPT looks like an MBR for compat reasons, so probably any BIOS will see the AA55 at the end and boot it fine. However, the rest of the bootstrap has to know to ignore the fake MBR and read the real GPT. -- John Baldwin