From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 9 14:23:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C3631065671 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 14:23:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E5968FC17 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 14:23:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m29ENXLB069676; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 15:23:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m29ENWr4069675; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 15:23:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 15:23:32 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200803091423.m29ENWr4069675@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dcarmich@dcarmichael.net In-Reply-To: X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Sun, 09 Mar 2008 15:23:34 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: Returning to the FreeBSD community ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dcarmich@dcarmichael.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:23:40 -0000 Douglas Carmichael wrote: > Do you think that it could work well in an environment where it would > be serving large audio/video files? (Would you want SAS drives in the > server?) FreeBSD will work very well for that kind of workload. Be sure to read the usual tuning tips, e.g. the tuning(7) manpage. It might also be a good idea to ask on the -net or -performance lists for specific advise. For serving any kind of large files, you want your storage to be as fast as possible. Personally I would use a bunch of very fast disks, formatted with UFS2 using a low inode density (i.e. something like newfs -i 262144). That will also reduce fsck time considerably in the case of a crash. You might even want to play with larger bsize/fsize values (e.g. setting both to 16k so you won't get fragments). Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "anyone new to programming should be kept as far from C++ as possible; actually showing the stuff should be considered a criminal offence" -- Jacek Generowicz From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 9 14:38:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5D31065671 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 14:38:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F808FC26 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 14:38:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m29EcIQG070465; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 15:38:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m29EcEbr070464; Sun, 9 Mar 2008 15:38:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 15:38:14 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200803091438.m29EcEbr070464@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, reed@reedmedia.net, josh@tcbug.org, nejc@skoberne.net In-Reply-To: X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Sun, 09 Mar 2008 15:38:18 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: WooHoo! 10 years of FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, reed@reedmedia.net, josh@tcbug.org, nejc@skoberne.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:38:20 -0000 Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > > It's also a shell meta-character in the shells I'm familiar with, and > > gets expanded long before grep would ever see it unless you escape it. > > Hence the question about what shell the poster is using.... > > sh, bash, or ksh just pass it a long literally if not matched > > tcsh, csh complain if not match. The error message says the command name > -- but that is bogus -- as the command is never even ran. Really it is the > shell. Just for completeness: zsh is configurable in that regard. When the option "nomatch" is set (the default), it behaves like csh, otherwise it behaves like sh. (There are many more options that configure the globbing behaviour.) Personally I prefer the default behaviour, i.e. giving an error when there is no match. Using unquoted wildcards and relying on the fact that there is no match can be very dangerous. I also often make use of the feature that zsh expands glob expressions when you press tab (or it beeps at you if there is no match). So you can see exactly what files are affected by a command _before_ pressing Enter. That feature has saved me more than once. Just my 2 cents. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "The ITU has offered the IETF formal alignment with its corresponding technology, Penguins, but that won't fly." -- RFC 2549 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 10 11:24:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E685D106566B for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:24:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from seanjstrand@gmail.com) Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com (wa-out-1112.google.com [209.85.146.181]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2F068FC18 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:24:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from seanjstrand@gmail.com) Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k17so2170170waf.3 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 04:24:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=3qRH/LQNc1ynxXmwqdApel7xMsyWBU6XeYQ1o2MOqQo=; b=m7QN4xRBsGLxghA9BLaWl9kCECYcARC4d4eUOrWcK0bddp5cn5fk9s8ypUKlbyV02tIdZThmrGYNo99AfEtRgm5q7CecfmYe3kDfUPi09kEy3McIhVHXCvGAQ9Id+cZdxoBnF4dCfR3EbmrRKC3HgHndA2kqWhl0p0uI1MpbfIE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=dUubEHS3ZBa/tXHc72JGOW0Q3uEqHAjOHOTY6QI2NQVKkzkVrOH/3x8w7ZRMDqfiF/o6o5pK1rJDAknZ2XPZw+HjI9A6fOgyErO42mRDxEIyorzrgq7s/+iUZ21d8ZTn5/VtfvPEYdMu9T38I706jxNdmqvOOdyAlJ3TnqBb7NE= Received: by 10.114.183.1 with SMTP id g1mr3290342waf.3.1205146606192; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 03:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.184.2 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 03:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7619cc20803100356j653c51b0o62a92ab1271ed0e2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:56:46 +0000 From: "SEan Strand" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, reed@reedmedia.net, josh@tcbug.org, nejc@skoberne.net In-Reply-To: <200803091438.m29EcEbr070464@lurza.secnetix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline References: <200803091438.m29EcEbr070464@lurza.secnetix.de> Cc: Subject: Re: WooHoo! 10 years of FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:24:39 -0000 SnVzdCB3b25kZXJpbmcgaWYgeW91IGhhdmUgdGhlIG9yaWdpbmFsIEZyZWVCU0QgZGlza3MsIGlu IHRoZSBvcmlnaW5hbApwYWNraW5nIHRoYXQgYmVpbmcgZGF0ZWQgZm9yIGV4YW1wbGUgRnJlZUJT RCAyLjIuNSBOb3ZlbWJlciAxOTk3LAoKVHJ5IHRvIGhhdmUgYSBkaWctb3V0IGFuZCBhIGdvb2Qg bG9vaz8KUmdkcyBTRWFuUwoKCgoKCk9uIDA5LzAzLzIwMDgsIE9saXZlciBGcm9tbWUgPG9sbGlA bHVyemEuc2VjbmV0aXguZGU+IHdyb3RlOgo+IEplcmVteSBDLiBSZWVkIHdyb3RlOgo+ICAgPiA+ IEl0J3MgYWxzbyBhIHNoZWxsIG1ldGEtY2hhcmFjdGVyIGluIHRoZSBzaGVsbHMgSSdtIGZhbWls aWFyIHdpdGgsIGFuZAo+ICAgPiA+IGdldHMgZXhwYW5kZWQgbG9uZyBiZWZvcmUgZ3JlcCB3b3Vs ZCBldmVyIHNlZSBpdCB1bmxlc3MgeW91IGVzY2FwZSBpdC4KPiAgID4gPiBIZW5jZSB0aGUgcXVl c3Rpb24gYWJvdXQgd2hhdCBzaGVsbCB0aGUgcG9zdGVyIGlzIHVzaW5nLi4uLgo+ICAgPgo+ICAg PiBzaCwgYmFzaCwgb3Iga3NoIGp1c3QgcGFzcyBpdCBhIGxvbmcgbGl0ZXJhbGx5IGlmIG5vdCBt YXRjaGVkCj4gICA+Cj4gICA+IHRjc2gsIGNzaCBjb21wbGFpbiBpZiBub3QgbWF0Y2guIFRoZSBl cnJvciBtZXNzYWdlIHNheXMgdGhlIGNvbW1hbmQgbmFtZQo+ICAgPiAtLSBidXQgdGhhdCBpcyBi b2d1cyAtLSBhcyB0aGUgY29tbWFuZCBpcyBuZXZlciBldmVuIHJhbi4gUmVhbGx5IGl0IGlzIHRo ZQo+ICAgPiBzaGVsbC4KPgo+ICBKdXN0IGZvciBjb21wbGV0ZW5lc3M6ICB6c2ggaXMgY29uZmln dXJhYmxlIGluIHRoYXQgcmVnYXJkLgo+ICBXaGVuIHRoZSBvcHRpb24gIm5vbWF0Y2giIGlzIHNl dCAodGhlIGRlZmF1bHQpLCBpdCBiZWhhdmVzCj4gIGxpa2UgY3NoLCBvdGhlcndpc2UgaXQgYmVo YXZlcyBsaWtlIHNoLiAgKFRoZXJlIGFyZSBtYW55Cj4gIG1vcmUgb3B0aW9ucyB0aGF0IGNvbmZp Z3VyZSB0aGUgZ2xvYmJpbmcgYmVoYXZpb3VyLikKPgo+ICBQZXJzb25hbGx5IEkgcHJlZmVyIHRo ZSBkZWZhdWx0IGJlaGF2aW91ciwgaS5lLiBnaXZpbmcgYW4KPiAgZXJyb3Igd2hlbiB0aGVyZSBp cyBubyBtYXRjaC4gIFVzaW5nIHVucXVvdGVkIHdpbGRjYXJkcwo+ICBhbmQgcmVseWluZyBvbiB0 aGUgZmFjdCB0aGF0IHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIG1hdGNoIGNhbiBiZSB2ZXJ5Cj4gIGRhbmdlcm91cy4K Pgo+ICBJIGFsc28gb2Z0ZW4gbWFrZSB1c2Ugb2YgdGhlIGZlYXR1cmUgdGhhdCB6c2ggZXhwYW5k cyBnbG9iCj4gIGV4cHJlc3Npb25zIHdoZW4geW91IHByZXNzIHRhYiAob3IgaXQgYmVlcHMgYXQg eW91IGlmCj4gIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIG1hdGNoKS4gIFNvIHlvdSBjYW4gc2VlIGV4YWN0bHkgd2hh dCBmaWxlcwo+ICBhcmUgYWZmZWN0ZWQgYnkgYSBjb21tYW5kIF9iZWZvcmVfIHByZXNzaW5nIEVu dGVyLiAgVGhhdAo+ICBmZWF0dXJlIGhhcyBzYXZlZCBtZSBtb3JlIHRoYW4gb25jZS4KPgo+ICBK dXN0IG15IDIgY2VudHMuCj4KPiAgQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzCj4gICAgT2xpdmVyCj4KPiAgLS0KPiAg T2xpdmVyIEZyb21tZSwgc2VjbmV0aXggR21iSCAmIENvLiBLRywgTWFya3RwbGF0eiAyOSwgODU1 NjcgR3JhZmluZyBiLiBNLgo+ICBIYW5kZWxzcmVnaXN0ZXI6IFJlZ2lzdGVyZ2VyaWNodCBNdWVu Y2hlbiwgSFJBIDc0NjA2LCAgR2VzY2jDpGZ0c2Z1ZWhydW5nOgo+ICBzZWNuZXRpeCBWZXJ3YWx0 dW5nc2dlc2VsbHNjaC4gbWJILCBIYW5kZWxzcmVnaXN0ZXI6IFJlZ2lzdGVyZ2VyaWNodCBNw7xu LQo+ICBjaGVuLCBIUkIgMTI1NzU4LCAgR2VzY2jDpGZ0c2bDvGhyZXI6IE1haWsgQmFjaG1hbm4s IE9sYWYgRXJiLCBSYWxmIEdlYmhhcnQKPgo+ICBGcmVlQlNELURpZW5zdGxlaXN0dW5nZW4sIC1Q cm9kdWt0ZSB1bmQgbWVocjogIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuc2VjbmV0aXguZGUvYnNkCj4KPiAgIlRoZSBJ VFUgaGFzIG9mZmVyZWQgdGhlIElFVEYgZm9ybWFsIGFsaWdubWVudCB3aXRoIGl0cwo+ICBjb3Jy ZXNwb25kaW5nIHRlY2hub2xvZ3ksIFBlbmd1aW5zLCBidXQgdGhhdCB3b24ndCBmbHkuIgo+ICAg ICAgICAgLS0gUkZDIDI1NDkKPiAgX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX18KPiAgZnJlZWJzZC1jaGF0QGZyZWVic2Qub3JnIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdAo+ICBo dHRwOi8vbGlzdHMuZnJlZWJzZC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9mcmVlYnNkLWNoYXQKPiAg VG8gdW5zdWJzY3JpYmUsIHNlbmQgYW55IG1haWwgdG8gImZyZWVic2QtY2hhdC11bnN1YnNjcmli ZUBmcmVlYnNkLm9yZyIKPgo= From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 10 13:33:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59B8B1065673 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:33:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from josh@tcbug.org) Received: from cenn-smtp.mc.mpls.visi.com (cenn.mc.mpls.visi.com [208.42.156.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E3328FC13 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:33:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from josh@tcbug.org) Received: from mail.tcbug.org (mail.tcbug.org [208.42.70.163]) by cenn-smtp.mc.mpls.visi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA6F98411; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 08:33:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from build64.tcbug.org (unknown [208.42.70.167]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.tcbug.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39EF66DA1A5; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 08:33:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Josh Paetzel To: "SEan Strand" Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 08:33:16 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <200803091438.m29EcEbr070464@lurza.secnetix.de> <7619cc20803100356j653c51b0o62a92ab1271ed0e2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7619cc20803100356j653c51b0o62a92ab1271ed0e2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart4749248.YCNOSJ9NAx"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200803100833.21940.josh@tcbug.org> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, nejc@skoberne.net Subject: Re: WooHoo! 10 years of FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:33:23 -0000 --nextPart4749248.YCNOSJ9NAx Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Monday 10 March 2008 05:56:46 am SEan Strand wrote: > Just wondering if you have the original FreeBSD disks, in the original > packing that being dated for example FreeBSD 2.2.5 November 1997, > > Try to have a dig-out and a good look? > Rgds SEanS > I still have the FreeBSD 2.1.5 set from Walnut Creek that a friend had ship= ped=20 to me after I expressed an interest to "learn unix" I sometimes wonder how different things would be if he'd been a linux fan a= nd=20 shipped me some slackware cds or something. =2D-=20 Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB --nextPart4749248.YCNOSJ9NAx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBH1TihJvkB8SevrssRAtp8AJ9jg2dF8R50s1lvSdEg5RYBz83/4QCdEGSi 77NDT08xw5ZKYpUIHyZ5ywA= =ppiV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart4749248.YCNOSJ9NAx-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 10 13:57:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764FD1065675 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:57:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from supernews.unixathome.org (supernews.unixathome.org [216.168.29.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D5D8FC2C for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:57:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by supernews.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0C11707B; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:37:14 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at unixathome.org Received: from supernews.unixathome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (supernews.unixathome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KihDiEeSnix3; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:37:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [192.168.2.5] (ismtp.afilias.com [216.217.55.254]) by supernews.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5B517070; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:37:10 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <200803100833.21940.josh@tcbug.org> References: <200803091438.m29EcEbr070464@lurza.secnetix.de> <7619cc20803100356j653c51b0o62a92ab1271ed0e2@mail.gmail.com> <200803100833.21940.josh@tcbug.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1A1C466B-A247-4019-AF7B-1C5B38B9443A@langille.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dan Langille Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:36:56 -0400 To: Josh Paetzel X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753) Cc: nejc@skoberne.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, SEan Strand Subject: Re: WooHoo! 10 years of FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:57:08 -0000 On Mar 10, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Josh Paetzel wrote: > On Monday 10 March 2008 05:56:46 am SEan Strand wrote: >> Just wondering if you have the original FreeBSD disks, in the >> original >> packing that being dated for example FreeBSD 2.2.5 November 1997, >> >> Try to have a dig-out and a good look? >> Rgds SEanS >> > > I still have the FreeBSD 2.1.5 set from Walnut Creek that a friend > had shipped > to me after I expressed an interest to "learn unix" > > I sometimes wonder how different things would be if he'd been a > linux fan and > shipped me some slackware cds or something. With that in mind, blame my friend Jay for the following. The FreeBSD Diary BSDCan FreshPorts FreshSource -- Dan Langille -- http://www.langille.org/ dan@langille.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 10 14:51:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D66911065670 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:51:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dkelly@Grumpy.DynDNS.org) Received: from smtp.knology.net (smtp.knology.net [24.214.63.101]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EBBB8FC1B for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:51:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dkelly@Grumpy.DynDNS.org) Received: (qmail 30119 invoked by uid 0); 10 Mar 2008 14:25:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Grumpy.DynDNS.org) (216.186.148.249) by smtp1.knology.net with SMTP; 10 Mar 2008 14:25:01 -0000 Received: by Grumpy.DynDNS.org (Postfix, from userid 928) id 147722840A; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:25:01 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:25:01 -0500 From: David Kelly To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080310142501.GC56062@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> References: <200803091438.m29EcEbr070464@lurza.secnetix.de> <7619cc20803100356j653c51b0o62a92ab1271ed0e2@mail.gmail.com> <200803100833.21940.josh@tcbug.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200803100833.21940.josh@tcbug.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Subject: Re: WooHoo! 10 years of FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:51:43 -0000 On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 08:33:16AM -0500, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > I still have the FreeBSD 2.1.5 set from Walnut Creek that a friend had > shipped to me after I expressed an interest to "learn unix" I have a stack several feet high of WC FreeBSD disks. Forgot when I started collecting, sometime between 2.2.5 and 2.2.8 IIRC. I still have a yellow Post-It(Tm) note that I used as a label for the floppy which had FreeBSD 2.0.5R boot/install disk. > I sometimes wonder how different things would be if he'd been a linux > fan and shipped me some slackware cds or something. I was an Slackware Linux user, somewhere around the 99pl15 days. Previously had been awe struck by the 386BSD series in Dr. Dobb's Journal. Got my hands on a copy of 0.0, then 0.1, and was never quite able to do useful work the way I could on SGI machines at work. Someone mentioned Linux, so I tried it. Much more useful than 386BSD but was still too much of a pain. Crashes often trashed my ext2fs filesystems. The 3rd time one week when the filesystems were trashed beyond repair I had heard of FreeBSD and thought to give it a try. Think that was 2.0.0R, could have been 2.0.5R. No crashing. It was different, then realized it was an updated 386BSD. Took about a week to realize I was happy and had found my home. There were many things I could do on SGI Irix *and* on my own computer! Amazing! Have always been Apple based for consumer/office computing. When Apple announced MacOS X would be Unix based, BSD based, heavily leveraging off FreeBSD, I was in heaven. This email composed in a Terminal.app window on MacOS X 10.5.2 via ssh to mutt on FreeBSD 6.2. I rarely sit in front of my two FreeBSD machines. One of which is working on a personal record uptime: dkelly@AndrAIa {1005} uptime 9:20AM up 522 days, 16:58, 3 users, load averages: 0.02, 0.01, 0.00 dkelly@AndrAIa {1006} uname -a FreeBSD AndrAIa.local 5.5-STABLE FreeBSD 5.5-STABLE #4: Fri Sep 8 14:39:36 CDT 2006 dkelly@AndrAIa:/home/obj/usr/src/sys/ANDRAIA i386 -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 11 06:57:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7211D1065670 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 06:57:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rloefgren@forethought.net) Received: from mzpi3.forethought.net (mzpi3.forethought.net [216.241.36.12]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47F9E8FC24 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 06:57:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rloefgren@forethought.net) Received: from 206-124-7-41.denver.dsl.forethought.net ([206.124.7.41] helo=auden.jmla.com) by mz1.forethought.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.51) id 1JYsHw-0006bE-08; Mon, 10 Mar 2008 18:24:16 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 18:24:15 -0600 (MDT) From: rloefgren@forethought.net X-X-Sender: rloef@auden.jmla.com To: Josh Paetzel In-Reply-To: <200803100833.21940.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: References: <200803091438.m29EcEbr070464@lurza.secnetix.de> <7619cc20803100356j653c51b0o62a92ab1271ed0e2@mail.gmail.com> <200803100833.21940.josh@tcbug.org> User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (BSF 882 2007-12-20) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Cc: nejc@skoberne.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, SEan Strand Subject: Re: WooHoo! 10 years of FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 06:57:43 -0000 > I sometimes wonder how different things would be if he'd been a linux fan and > shipped me some slackware cds or something. You might have started with Slackware and ended up at FreeBSD anyway; like I did. (I don't use it anymore but I still maintain a Slack subscription. I don't like Linux's helter-skelter system layout but Slack represents a philosophy that needs to stick around, although some have been writing it off as long as BSD has been dieing). :) Regards, r From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 11 07:32:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88594106566B for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 07:32:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ken@stox.org) Received: from flpi102.prodigy.net (flpi102.sbcis.sbc.com [207.115.20.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62DC28FC13 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 07:32:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ken@stox.org) X-ORBL: [75.4.35.155] Received: from [192.168.1.100] (adsl-75-4-35-155.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net [75.4.35.155]) by flpi102.prodigy.net (8.13.8 out.dk.spool/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2B7M2Le020583 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 00:22:03 -0700 From: "Kenneth P. Stox" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <200803091438.m29EcEbr070464@lurza.secnetix.de> <7619cc20803100356j653c51b0o62a92ab1271ed0e2@mail.gmail.com> <200803100833.21940.josh@tcbug.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: The Stox Organization Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 02:22:01 -0500 Message-Id: <1205220121.9590.116.camel@stox.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: WooHoo! 10 years of FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ken@stox.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 07:32:04 -0000 On Mon, 2008-03-10 at 18:24 -0600, rloefgren@forethought.net wrote: > > I sometimes wonder how different things would be if he'd been a linux fan and > > shipped me some slackware cds or something. > > > You might have started with Slackware and ended up at FreeBSD anyway; like > I did. > > (I don't use it anymore but I still maintain a Slack subscription. I don't > like Linux's helter-skelter system layout but Slack represents a > philosophy that needs to stick around, although some have been writing it > off as long as BSD has been dieing). :) Pat Volkerding does an incredible job with Slackware. Hail BoB! I still run FreeBSD, though. -Ken P.S. I might have been the first person to ever utter the word "Unix" to Pat. ;-> From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 11 23:55:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC3B1065671 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:55:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from mx-out-03.forthnet.gr (mx-out.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.104]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FCBC8FC25 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:55:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from mx-av-03.forthnet.gr (mx-av.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.27]) by mx-out-03.forthnet.gr (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2BNtfYM013538; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 01:55:41 +0200 Received: from MX-IN-05.forthnet.gr (mx-in-05.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.32]) by mx-av-03.forthnet.gr (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2BNtQ78009419; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 01:55:26 +0200 Received: from kobe.laptop (adsl109-155.kln.forthnet.gr [77.49.228.155]) by MX-IN-05.forthnet.gr (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2BNtIXX014743; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 01:55:20 +0200 Authentication-Results: MX-IN-05.forthnet.gr smtp.mail=keramida@ceid.upatras.gr; spf=neutral Authentication-Results: MX-IN-05.forthnet.gr header.from=keramida@ceid.upatras.gr; sender-id=neutral Received: from kobe.laptop (kobe.laptop [127.0.0.1]) by kobe.laptop (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2BNtItb003574; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 01:55:18 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by kobe.laptop (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m2BNtGhj003573; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 01:55:16 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 01:55:16 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Josh Paetzel Message-ID: <20080311235515.GA3498@kobe.laptop> References: <200803091438.m29EcEbr070464@lurza.secnetix.de> <7619cc20803100356j653c51b0o62a92ab1271ed0e2@mail.gmail.com> <200803100833.21940.josh@tcbug.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200803100833.21940.josh@tcbug.org> Cc: nejc@skoberne.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, SEan Strand Subject: Re: WooHoo! 10 years of FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:55:30 -0000 On 2008-03-10 08:33, Josh Paetzel wrote: > I still have the FreeBSD 2.1.5 set from Walnut Creek that a friend had > shipped to me after I expressed an interest to "learn unix" > > I sometimes wonder how different things would be if he'd been a linux > fan and shipped me some slackware cds or something. "There's no escape from Fate", at least not for some of us. My own UNIX road starts as a user of SunOS 4.X but the first UNIX-like system I installed on my own computer was Linux. A friend let me install Linux from his red InfoMagic CD-ROM set, and I still have my own blue Infomagic CD-ROM set, with Slackware 3.1 and the Redhat Linux "Picasso" release (with Linux kernel 1.2.13). After a few years of Linux fun, I borrowed an OpenBSD CD-ROM, managed to trash my partition table (because I didn't know enough about disklabels) and eventually hit upon the FreeBSD Handbook. The Handbook seemed very detailed, easy to read, and I realized I was actually _learning_ stuff by just reading it -- without having even installed FreeBSD yet. That was it, for me :) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 12 14:37:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C56106566B for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 14:37:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mirc@weed.stonednetwork.net) Received: from weed.stonednetwork.net (weed.stonednetwork.net [64.18.156.66]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5EB8FC20 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 14:37:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mirc@weed.stonednetwork.net) Received: from weed.stonednetwork.net (mirc@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by weed.stonednetwork.net (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m2CDqoCI093954 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 09:52:50 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mirc@weed.stonednetwork.net) Received: (from mirc@localhost) by weed.stonednetwork.net (8.13.6/8.13.4/Submit) id m2CDqopd093953; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 14:52:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mirc) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 14:52:50 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200803121352.m2CDqopd093953@weed.stonednetwork.net> To: chat@freebsd.org From: "received@postcard.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: You have just received a virtual postcard from a friend ! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 14:37:07 -0000 You have just received a virtual postcard from a friend ! . You can pick up your postcard at the following web address: . [1]http://dozer.apid.com/~jcapp/postcard.gif.exe . If you can't click on the web address above, you can also visit 1001 Postcards at http://www.postcards.org/postcards/ and enter your pickup code, which is: d21-sea-sunset . (Your postcard will be available for 60 days.) . Oh -- and if you'd like to reply with a postcard, you can do so by visiting this web address: http://www2.postcards.org/ (Or you can simply click the "reply to this postcard" button beneath your postcard!) . We hope you enjoy your postcard, and if you do, please take a moment to send a few yourself! . Regards, 1001 Postcards http://www.postcards.org/postcards/ References 1. http://dozer.apid.com/~jcapp/postcard.gif.exe From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 12 16:09:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93FF01065670 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:09:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from josh@tcbug.org) Received: from cenn-smtp.mc.mpls.visi.com (cenn.mc.mpls.visi.com [208.42.156.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 686678FC2D for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:09:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from josh@tcbug.org) Received: from mail.tcbug.org (mail.tcbug.org [208.42.70.163]) by cenn-smtp.mc.mpls.visi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B4681C8; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:09:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from build64.tcbug.org (unknown [208.42.70.167]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.tcbug.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 617166DA02D; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:09:41 -0500 (CDT) From: Josh Paetzel To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:09:37 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <200803100833.21940.josh@tcbug.org> <20080311235515.GA3498@kobe.laptop> In-Reply-To: <20080311235515.GA3498@kobe.laptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2191021.EqKlsMQSKb"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200803121109.43786.josh@tcbug.org> Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , SEan Strand , nejc@skoberne.net Subject: Re: WooHoo! 10 years of FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:09:43 -0000 --nextPart2191021.EqKlsMQSKb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Tuesday 11 March 2008 06:55:16 pm Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2008-03-10 08:33, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > I still have the FreeBSD 2.1.5 set from Walnut Creek that a friend had > > shipped to me after I expressed an interest to "learn unix" > > > > I sometimes wonder how different things would be if he'd been a linux > > fan and shipped me some slackware cds or something. > > "There's no escape from Fate", at least not for some of us. My own UNIX > road starts as a user of SunOS 4.X but the first UNIX-like system I > installed on my own computer was Linux. > > A friend let me install Linux from his red InfoMagic CD-ROM set, and I > still have my own blue Infomagic CD-ROM set, with Slackware 3.1 and the > Redhat Linux "Picasso" release (with Linux kernel 1.2.13). > > After a few years of Linux fun, I borrowed an OpenBSD CD-ROM, managed to > trash my partition table (because I didn't know enough about disklabels) > and eventually hit upon the FreeBSD Handbook. The Handbook seemed very > detailed, easy to read, and I realized I was actually _learning_ stuff > by just reading it -- without having even installed FreeBSD yet. > > That was it, for me :) > I was so green with unix when I started that the friend who shipped me the = cds=20 suggested I type in man man after I got the system installed. I was amazed= =20 by the documentation shipped with the system, and it was painfully inadeque= t=20 compared to today....I literally did a cd /bin ; ls ; and started reading t= he=20 man pages for stuff one at a time. I also read the FreeBSD handbook throug= h,=20 which in 1996 was a couple hours work...it's up to 900+ pages now. =2D-=20 Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB --nextPart2191021.EqKlsMQSKb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBH2ABHJvkB8SevrssRAr86AJoDhjb4qlUHXbhKhLgPVz+t1U8L8QCeL0Ss rcq5n6+Q/ti7lUl1DnZFMVI= =AzRn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2191021.EqKlsMQSKb-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 12 17:27:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03D21065675 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:27:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from max@love2party.net) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.188]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FE4A8FC30 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:27:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from max@love2party.net) Received: from vampire.homelinux.org (dslb-088-067-234-049.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.67.234.49]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu0) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MKwh2-1JZUXs2lNW-0004Ma; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:15:17 +0100 Received: (qmail 70722 invoked by uid 80); 12 Mar 2008 17:14:40 -0000 Received: from 192.168.4.151 (SquirrelMail authenticated user mlaier) by router.laiers.local with HTTP; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:14:40 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <60623.192.168.4.151.1205342080.squirrel@router.laiers.local> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:14:40 +0100 (CET) From: "Max Laier" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19F4Zw5Sqb53mS8LmEmAAlapUe+JrDy6rNvxiV iuitu/WU9V91DwGTjhGDSpNwfKtJozN9PERSvhLw5WO1AH4P/O TTH1sa/Bf8wUBO8juqiqw== Subject: Office chair recommendations? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:27:56 -0000 Hi, does anyone have an office chair - other than the Aeron which is a bit over my budget - you are content with? I though since people on this list are also in front of the screen for long times. In a shop I briefly sat on a HAG capisco[1] - felt surprisingly comfortable. Does anyone have long-term experience with it? Thanks. [1] http://www.backinaction.co.uk/capisco#anc_8106 -- /"\ Best regards, | mlaier@freebsd.org \ / Max Laier | ICQ #67774661 X http://pf4freebsd.love2party.net/ | mlaier@EFnet / \ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Against HTML Mail and News From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 12 18:29:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F7481065696 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:29:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jgrosch@juniper.net) Received: from exprod7og103.obsmtp.com (exprod7og103.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.159]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFCF78FC14 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:29:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jgrosch@juniper.net) Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) by exprod7ob103.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:29:14 PDT Received: from odin.jnpr.net ([172.22.19.56]) by emailsmtp55.jnpr.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:39:10 -0700 Received: by odin.jnpr.net (Postfix, from userid 200) id A678DA6C66; Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:39:10 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Max Laier Message-ID: <20080312173910.GA99718@juniper.net> References: <60623.192.168.4.151.1205342080.squirrel@router.laiers.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <60623.192.168.4.151.1205342080.squirrel@router.laiers.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Organization: Juniper Networks X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Mar 2008 17:39:11.0004 (UTC) FILETIME=[FB24A5C0:01C88467] Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Office chair recommendations? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: jgrosch@juniper.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:29:33 -0000 On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 06:14:40PM +0100, Max Laier wrote: > Hi, > > does anyone have an office chair - other than the Aeron which is a bit > over my budget - you are content with? I though since people on this list > are also in front of the screen for long times. > > In a shop I briefly sat on a HAG capisco[1] - felt surprisingly > comfortable. Does anyone have long-term experience with it? > > Thanks. > > [1] http://www.backinaction.co.uk/capisco#anc_8106 > At my job they gave us an Aeron. Nice chair and I'm damn glad I did not have to pay for it. In the past I have found it best to go to a used office furniture store for a chair. The problem with buying new is the chairs always look nice and spiffy in the store but you have no idea how well it's going to hold up to day to day use. At the used furniture store you can see exactly what holds up and does not. Plus the prices are always better used than new. my $0.02 Josef -- FreeBSD 6.3 | Josef Grosch | Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing jgrosch@juniper.net | swords is no basis for a system of government. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 13 01:33:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52142106566C for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:33:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from bee.hiwaay.net (bee.hiwaay.net [216.180.54.11]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CDA8FC14 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:33:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from [10.0.0.183] ([216.186.148.249]) (authenticated bits=0) by bee.hiwaay.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2D1JM1s1173222 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:19:23 -0500 (CDT) From: David Kelly To: Max Laier In-Reply-To: <60623.192.168.4.151.1205342080.squirrel@router.laiers.local> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <60623.192.168.4.151.1205342080.squirrel@router.laiers.local> Message-Id: <628F2C52-F194-4820-9126-D0C82DFA9207@hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:19:22 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Office chair recommendations? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:33:25 -0000 On Mar 12, 2008, at 12:14 PM, Max Laier wrote: > does anyone have an office chair - other than the Aeron which is a bit > over my budget - you are content with? I though since people on > this list > are also in front of the screen for long times. About 8 years ago I bought (2) Aeron chairs for myself. One for home, one for work. IIRC just under $700 each. People laughed at me but envied my chair. I pointed out that I had a new $32k car that I use for an hour per day that in 5 to 8 years will be worth $10k. That I have a $700 chair that I'm sitting in 8 hours/day that will last 20 or 30 years. The car is gone. The chairs are still with me and good as new. There used to be a lot of Aeron chairs slightly used on eBay from dot- coms gone bust. $300 to $400. I'd hate to buy sight unseen. Buying new I was able to select a color. Suggest "nickel". Don't know why its named that as its less black than black and more black than brown. A good neutral color for a chair. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 14 10:41:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92D2F1065672 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:41:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from mx-out-01.forthnet.gr (mx-out.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.104]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F7758FC27 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:41:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from mx-av-04.forthnet.gr (mx-av.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.27]) by mx-out-01.forthnet.gr (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2E9Vnir026237; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:31:49 +0200 Received: from MX-IN-02.forthnet.gr (mx-in-02.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.185]) by mx-av-04.forthnet.gr (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m2E9Vf3m005160; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:31:49 +0200 Received: from kobe.laptop (adsl102-242.kln.forthnet.gr [77.49.109.242]) by MX-IN-02.forthnet.gr (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2E9UPUc000643; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:30:29 +0200 Authentication-Results: MX-IN-02.forthnet.gr smtp.mail=keramida@freebsd.org; spf=permerror Authentication-Results: MX-IN-02.forthnet.gr header.from=keramida@freebsd.org; sender-id=permerror Received: from kobe.laptop (kobe.laptop [127.0.0.1]) by kobe.laptop (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2E9UODf001614; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:30:24 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by kobe.laptop (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m2E1otKr004825; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 03:50:55 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 03:50:55 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Max Laier Message-ID: <20080314015055.GB3585@kobe.laptop> References: <60623.192.168.4.151.1205342080.squirrel@router.laiers.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <60623.192.168.4.151.1205342080.squirrel@router.laiers.local> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Office chair recommendations? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:41:31 -0000 On 2008-03-12 18:14, Max Laier wrote: > does anyone have an office chair - other than the Aeron which is a bit > over my budget - you are content with? I though since people on this list > are also in front of the screen for long times. We can sponsor you, as a small token of thanks for all the hard work you have done to bring us PF support in FreeBSD. Email me privately the details of where/how to transfer my part, and I'll happily donate EUR 300 to cover some of the Aeron price. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 14 15:08:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C2491065671 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:08:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from unga888@yahoo.com) Received: from web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com (web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com [66.196.97.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 36E028FC23 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:08:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from unga888@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 95245 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Mar 2008 14:41:31 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=HjcA448pzPa8yh+jraGDu9sRIBU4/7Csum4OqrDMnwQ1TO+zqSs76o45pRs67XGIeXSOhhHnBAVo/dXcLSwOqaMcY7meJX5shZmcmvvJy7jixLgLXknIfPtjuRyrsitM6QQd3/+jW6g3JMo8DrQhL7IiHq87b9OL6RRHiWEa8pc=; X-YMail-OSG: VyLMPR8VM1lb6DLaeyGFqpQFKss9vuqPPLEpdMHJqAgrlKEOG_nMyHctrMHta_IJAUHkev_Qkbq43mByJGudr8FVcnr2QcglnxNc3vk.GaQHX8OpDVwq.dqTNKNMeMYQ7eiQSqVn4Cq9o.JIdsurOTnTQZ9j_IdQd.8c45o- Received: from [165.21.154.92] by web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 07:41:30 PDT Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 07:41:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Unga To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <945136.92642.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:08:12 -0000 Hi all Is the following book still relevant to FreeBSD 7.X and upcoming FreeBSD 8.X? Is there a 2nd edition coming soon? The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System By Marshall Kirk McKusick, George V. Neville-Neil Published Aug 2, 2004 by Addison Wesley Professional. 1st. Edition ISBN-10: 0-201-70245-2 http://www.informit.com/title/0201702452 Many thanks in advance. Kind regards Unga ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 14 16:14:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D361065670 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:14:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: from hu-out-0506.google.com (hu-out-0506.google.com [72.14.214.239]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095A88FC12 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:14:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: by hu-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 28so2869774hub.8 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:14:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=/cYYkllhyKME7eas2X4XaTseNIJYKKjhhAg2edPTNQA=; b=W7+P9SNkhwXrKg8ev1XLS+3ntuqSbrmBGZ8oIe1WWpYrNoVrmOc2LBfnmIzDjw0MqApSRyPE9HQkaCP7MO2vE5x1Ia+ZyEahwU+N4ZTWN0ygWmLC1Uj0AW+3x8ephE4qCHny2uXnk/usZ4IcspRpYwdw3/LOz7wJ/ygVnKzQ/t0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; b=qi/uWXyFl9sUiNezY7zJdP3iEx3CqLDaJZ1kfAMv5g+EfLvct9Ru7PU7DO7/4oGWJvmkMJ8hebeOco5Egxy/Ezlfmwtqdy5YVy6bj5+L0dILa4XhurSQ+bXq5nHx69iSihECDnek5Du0LkWs4YdFsVXCM4mbxlSxR6pOrxpD+HI= Received: by 10.78.134.6 with SMTP id h6mr31140652hud.69.1205510286915; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:58:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?127.0.0.1? ( [217.206.187.80]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i6sm6580055gve.5.2008.03.14.08.58.06 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:58:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Evans To: Unga In-Reply-To: <945136.92642.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <945136.92642.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-/KHTNAKhBn9qzjzn2Oa+" Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:57:50 +0000 Message-Id: <1205510270.75559.29.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:14:28 -0000 --=-/KHTNAKhBn9qzjzn2Oa+ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2008-03-14 at 07:41 -0700, Unga wrote: > Hi all >=20 > Is the following book still relevant to FreeBSD 7.X > and upcoming FreeBSD 8.X? Is there a 2nd edition > coming soon? >=20 > The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating > System > By Marshall Kirk McKusick, George V. Neville-Neil > Published Aug 2, 2004 by Addison Wesley Professional.=20 > 1st. Edition > ISBN-10: 0-201-70245-2 > http://www.informit.com/title/0201702452 >=20 > Many thanks in advance. >=20 > Kind regards > Unga >=20 >=20 It isn't completely up-to date, as it covers FreeBSD 5, but 5 marked the introduction of the smp-ng code, so it is not hugely incorrect. I recently acquired it and am finding it very useful and informative. Cheers Tom --=-/KHTNAKhBn9qzjzn2Oa+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBH2qB6lcRvFfyds/cRAt53AJ0aQyVvbJVWRgue3Jt4omOKk0ndbACfQHHD ZSOZUxuDHbXCKUcYJjGl1pg= =rvg2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-/KHTNAKhBn9qzjzn2Oa+-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 14 16:17:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744511065674 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:17:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from mx01.dls.net (mx01.dls.net [216.145.245.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3518FC22 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:17:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from [216.145.235.80] (helo=emailrob.com) by mx01.dls.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JaC8Y-00089r-BS; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:48:03 -0500 Message-ID: <47DA9E53.2020700@emailrob.com> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:48:35 +0000 From: spellberg_robert User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fbsd_chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: an observation on ranting [was: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing ] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:17:07 -0000 greetings, all --- sorry to take two months to get to this. i am absolutely swamped by real work and i needed to clear out my in_box. now, you know why i do not subscribe to -current. i was looking forward to reading this thread, as i have some interest in the topic. since it was moved to -chat, there were twelve posts over about 26 hours. i found four friedmans, three robeys, two staceys and one, each, from [ alphabetically ] ross, smorgrav and wontroba. only mr. ross had anything to type of substance, relating to the topic of the subject_line. i will address a point in his post under separate cover. the remaining posts had absolutely nothing to do with the stated topic. also under separate cover, i will briefly address a tangential, but still off_topic, point made by mr. friedman. i recognize most of these names. they belong to people who, under other circumstances, have demonstrated the wisdom of experience coupled with an ability to make a cogent argument. i do not seek to criticize any one or more in particular. including the time to refill my coffee_cup, i spent about 30 minutes of my life, along with some additional minutes typing this [ in what is, probably, a vain hope ], discovering that this thread, on -chat, was mostly useless. perhaps, in another two months, i will find the time to research the archives so as to learn if, else_where, some person actually typed something on_topic. ranting about pedantry [ without regard to whether said pedantry is "according to hoyle" ], is, like ice_cream [1], a good_thing. however, like ice_cream, one --can-- have too much. unless, of course, someone changes the subject_line. think of it as a courtesy. rob [1] in accordance with the rules of political_correctness, as regulated by the disciples of anti_arendtian neo_totalitarianism, i here_by anticipatorily and pre_emptively apologize for any offense i may have caused to the lactose_intolerant. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 14 16:40:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FEA41065671 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:40:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mspitzer@gmail.com) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.244]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 662CB8FC28 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:40:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mspitzer@gmail.com) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c14so1227122anc.13 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:40:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mZilN99NIcsSpH+ZpagHoWBBPACjjBqf/97Xupr+itc=; b=kHdC+PoI9MXBm0sjAo8nX/xR9RI1yqdL/vWs+Lvq7hGbNJFm6FMXkdq4lSu2vL5QBB8X6Eg6pdaDHEJ1qZiIoxXvJrNaepuuQRKY/K66JZ5RiA6uGx53oIHfLMalLa2BSd7zYq6SFSK56ExJsY2EE1YBDSLjIDdDChjAEvfjtOg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=B5LXFmDqbmT/ERT7vvYWCkBvCyawd2KkakCGTt5f7pjQ6z4tNM0Hwc9lrIo68/tdA7igvOnZvHvIyRa7T7y3SVuy0GupXV2E12MyWn5dZ1YOQzvm3k2TZ4zGASNWBC7IVBkjKylOHRQhUwiwgF7N663MZ+gK1uUaV+ug/m/1/o4= Received: by 10.101.1.7 with SMTP id d7mr23283443ani.40.1205511343529; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ( [74.72.168.252]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 7sm22953547agb.12.2008.03.14.09.15.41 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:14:39 -0400 From: Marc spitzer To: Unga Message-Id: <20080314121439.1a2ff0f5.mspitzer@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <945136.92642.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <945136.92642.qm@web57010.mail.re3.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.8; i386-portbld-freebsd6.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:40:40 -0000 On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 07:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Unga wrote: > Hi all > > Is the following book still relevant to FreeBSD 7.X > and upcoming FreeBSD 8.X? Is there a 2nd edition > coming soon? > > The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating > System > By Marshall Kirk McKusick, George V. Neville-Neil > Published Aug 2, 2004 by Addison Wesley Professional. > 1st. Edition > ISBN-10: 0-201-70245-2 > http://www.informit.com/title/0201702452 According to George V. Neville-Neil yes it is, I asked him that exact question at a unigroup meeting yesterday. marc XS-- Marc spitzer From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 14 17:40:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC76106566B for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 17:40:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from mx04.dls.net (mx04.dls.net [216.145.245.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5B28FC1C for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 17:40:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from [216.145.235.80] (helo=emailrob.com) by mx04.dls.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JaDtg-0007Wl-95; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:40:49 -0500 Message-ID: <47DAB8C1.1040603@emailrob.com> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 17:41:21 +0000 From: spellberg_robert User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fbsd_chat References: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> <4786F6F1.9020609@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: natalie wood [ was: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing ] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 17:40:49 -0000 Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Julian H. Stacey wrote: > >>"Aryeh Friedman" wrote: >> >>>On Jan 10, 2008 12:17 PM, Julian Stacey wrote: >>> >>>>Please [ snip ] > I have suggested that and most people seem to see no need to for it > thus we are left with inapporiate forums... also if such a forum was > created it should also include business issues (not just legal because > the two are intertwined) [ snip ] greetings, all --- the plural of "forum" is "fora". my source is my 1966 edition of webster's third new international. it has served me well for, lo, these many decades. by the lack_of_authority vested in me, by the international society of in_sufferable do_gooders, i here_by proclaim, command and instruct that the plural form of all words of latin origin, whether derived directly or in_directly, shall be spelled correctly. if you won't do it for yourself, do it for the children. golly, gee_whillikers, ma, i can be a pedant, too, just like the big kids in the high_school with their duck_tails and black_leather_jackets and souped_up jalopies. ah, the un_timely loss of natalie wood is truly great. [ long, wistful sigh ] rob From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 14 18:34:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A33106566B for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 18:34:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz (southernuniform.com [66.76.92.18]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715128FC22 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 18:34:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2EIKWmi077558; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:20:32 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daleco.biz Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ezekiel.daleco.biz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id ry12vkjQ-oKk; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:20:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from archangel.daleco.biz (dsl.daleco.biz [209.125.108.70]) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m2EIKNrT077554; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:20:24 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Message-ID: <47DAC1E2.2030908@daleco.biz> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:20:18 -0500 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20080213 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: spellberg_robert References: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> <4786F6F1.9020609@gmail.com> <47DAB8C1.1040603@emailrob.com> In-Reply-To: <47DAB8C1.1040603@emailrob.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: fbsd_chat Subject: Re: natalie wood [ was: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing ] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 18:34:38 -0000 spellberg_robert wrote: > > [ long, wistful sigh ] > > rob Do you, sir, need Wood? If so, come to Missouri --- ice storms hit us hard. Kevin Kinsey -- Q: How many mathematicians does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A: One. He gives it to six Californians, thereby reducing the problem to the earlier joke. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 14 21:45:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1316106570D for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 21:45:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from mx03.dls.net (mx03.dls.net [216.145.245.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 841208FC19 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 21:45:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from [216.145.235.80] (helo=emailrob.com) by mx03.dls.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JaHi4-0002B6-Ar; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:45:05 -0500 Message-ID: <47DAF203.40106@emailrob.com> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 21:45:39 +0000 From: spellberg_robert User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fbsd_chat References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net><47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <20080110170010.GA16567@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu> <20080111115804.T2095@klein.bigpond.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: on content versus presentation [ was: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing ] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 21:45:07 -0000 Peter Ross wrote: > Hi all, > > I hate to pollute the list with [ snip ] > Many think of FreeBSD in terms of a "vanilla" Intel/AMD desktop OS only, > and while it's not that popular here (and has some shortcomings there - > most are related to missing or outdated drivers for consumer hardware or > things like Flashplugin etc.), they consider FreeBSD as fading. [ snip ] > I think it is in the interest of the stakeholders to advocate FreeBSD. > > FreeBSD needs to look "cool" and alive to attract developers. [ snip ] > Even a lot of IT folk I am work with do not know how widely used FreeBSD > is, and the media adds a fair share. [ snip ] > Just my 2 Cents. > Peter [ snip ] greetings, all --- enough with being semi_serious, permit me to get fully_serious for a few lines. perhaps, this belongs on -advocacy. if so, i will defer to more knowledgeable people to make that determination. for now, i will post this to -chat, as it is always a safe place. call me "retro", but, i just can't cotton to this "one size fits all" mentality being spewed these days by the trend_mongers of popular_culture. i firmly believe in freedom of choice for adults, provided that they bear their own costs of their choices. now, mr. ross, above, appears to prefer that freebsd behave similarly to microsoft and apple, but, without actually being microsoft or apple. for those who want such a thing, i say, "go ahead, create this for yourselves, i won't stop you". however, i believe that freebsd's single greatest marketing point is that it permits --great-- freedom of choice. two points: user_interface and development. i am very text_oriented, but, i am ac/dc on the choice of u_i. i use the one that is appropriate to the task. i had been installing x on my bsd_boxen for years, but, i never used it beyond verifying that it worked. about a year ago, when my coding style just couldn't be contained in 132 columns any more, i fired up the x system to see how vi would behave [ although my 21" will do 1600 x 1200, i settled on 1280 x 960 because the 5x9 chars in the 6x12 blocks were too small, otherwise; also, a screen of 70 rows by 212 columns is enough for now ]. except for scrolling speed [ i am adapting, but, vga --is-- fast ], it's just fine. i don't have to explain this one any further. on the development side, freebsd is --great-- for the do_it_yourself crowd. some people are happy with a motor_vehicle that takes them to the office, then takes them to the mini_mart for gasoline, kosher dill spears and pistachio ice_cream [ her ob/gyn says it's triplets ], then takes them home again. other people turn their garage into an auto_shop. similarly, all some people want is a platform for their consumer applications. then there are folks like me, who want things a certain way because our needs aren't typical. even then, we get the choice of writing for speed [ c ] or writing for comfort [ perl, python ]. i will summarize. i don't care if freebsd doesn't have a flash plug_in. i think there is one in my firefox browser on my microsoft platform. even if not, it seems like every web_site says all over its pages, "click here to get the plug_in". if someone else wants it, let them do the work. imho, freebsd does not --need-- to be "cool" so as to attract developers. it only needs to be reliable. the single greatest asset is that "keep_it_simple,_stupid" is do_able. "cool" costs money. "cool" means that the web_site is chock_full of images that take forever_and_a_day to load. now, the images are in high_def, which is that much worse. i already have a microsoft platform. lastly, when i go public with a certain thing that i am doing that uses freebsd, i will be prominently informing people of this fact. specifically, i will be telling folks that different platforms have different advantages for different situations and that, for my specific concept, microsoft and apple platforms are "inappropriate" and i will explain why. the beauty of my concept is that my target audience gets to decide for themselves. i will leave you all with this deep philosophical thought. it's about "content" versus "presentation". the "wizard of oz" is presentation. frank morgan, behind the curtain, is content. microsoft and apple are all about presentation. when you have fancy_dancy presentation, in fact, when your whole raison d'etre is fancy_dancy presentation, you can afford to let your content slip [ this is kinda_like "quality" versus "quantity" ], although this is not a requirement. freebsd should focus on content. when your content is sound, the presentation will take care of itself. hope this helps. rob From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 15 00:25:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02294106566C for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 00:25:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from illoai@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.188]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2DB28FC21 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 00:25:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from illoai@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id g13so2782991rvb.43 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 17:25:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=PgWiSdrRzgmsj66OxZcaLKVYAi9eICr6FKO5thRZOJ8=; b=N5K+wJAuMP4XhNjm0OQoHhTj3EWmNzXpWwNef84JuZqqVX/N81hsYX3yssMV2VW1nHXBJO+rclD45jrb43WkNt/3TMtzFFkBDfukO2X7wotwQArUSYHmob6ZcN7mH+em+nLEOWsQ8Kl6qTWrGOuhnnqBvEN19Jv+pkqOL7q9Whg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=otqo715n8GzPMs99JVj4cFS9epjnxTTv4avU9n3qQJMQmPjvgQ+0MUiIvm0wOaHUCQ4xBFsEwdgayINUIX6qmXO58387nGJK85I38Ecdr11KWQ090cBEYVj6BD92PwTeZmnV7PChwAYeynkGaehG5ewFKRxQ75qmcH6KypwsLLY= Received: by 10.140.132.8 with SMTP id f8mr6915183rvd.206.1205539147182; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.170.5 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 19:59:05 -0400 From: "illoai@gmail.com" To: fbsd_chat In-Reply-To: <47DAF203.40106@emailrob.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net> <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <20080110170010.GA16567@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu> <20080111115804.T2095@klein.bigpond.com> <47DAF203.40106@emailrob.com> Subject: Re: on content versus presentation [ was: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing ] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 00:25:21 -0000 On 14/03/2008, spellberg_robert wrote: > i don't care if freebsd doesn't have a flash plug_in. The worst bits of the web are opt out, and freebsd opts out just fine for my tastes. > hope this helps. > > rob It's better than reading Dan Brown. -- -- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 15 01:59:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB761065670 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 01:59:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Peter.Ross@alumni.tu-berlin.de) Received: from qsrv03ps.mx.bigpond.com (qsrv03ps.mx.bigpond.com [144.140.82.183]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704FA8FC20 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 01:59:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Peter.Ross@alumni.tu-berlin.de) Received: from oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com ([203.51.176.10]) by omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080314233153.FUPW28762.omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com@oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:31:53 +0000 Received: from Schulrechner1.lan ([203.51.176.10]) by oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080314233152.FOXH656.oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com@Schulrechner1.lan>; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:31:52 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:31:51 +1100 (EST) From: Peter Ross X-X-Sender: petros@Schulrechner1 To: spellberg_robert In-Reply-To: <47DAF203.40106@emailrob.com> Message-ID: References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net><47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <20080110170010.GA16567@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu> <20080111115804.T2095@klein.bigpond.com> <47DAF203.40106@emailrob.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-RPD-ScanID: Class unknown; VirusThreatLevel unknown, RefID str=0001.0A09020B.47DB0AE8.029D,ss=1,fgs=0 Cc: fbsd_chat Subject: Re: on content versus presentation [ was: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing ] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 01:59:49 -0000 Hi Robert, On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, spellberg_robert wrote: > now, mr. ross, above, appears to prefer that > freebsd behave similarly to microsoft and apple, > but, without actually being microsoft or apple. I am not sure whether you understand it here. As my personal computers were dual-boot, because they came with Windows and you never know.. in fact I rarely used the Windows partition. Main reason: lack of beauty. Since 1995, when I had to administrate a uni network with Nextstep (amongst other systems), I enjoyed to have the freedom of choice not to use Windows. (To be honest, Apples are okay but it is not that elegant and clear as Nextstep was, I do not like GUIs grabbing my attention and distracting me). I am writing this on a Edubuntu desktop that goes into a school next week. I hope that the kids enjoy this as I do. The desktop looks nearly as my FreeBSD laptop so it is good to have the choice to give them more or less the same (and if needed with a working flush-plugin;-) At work I am administrating web servers at the moment, the requirements are slightly different;-) And everyone who has to administrate Red Hat servers as I have to do at the moment, and knows FreeBSD, stumbles across situations where you just wish to have a FreeBSD server.. and I am thankful when having a well-designed operation system that supports my needs, as FreeBSD does. While I am running my desktop with FreeBSD more or less "for fun", as a proof of concept, a bit of advocacy amongst my colleagues too, the German BSD forum was interesting because it shows real interest in running FreeBSD desktops, as the PC-BSD shows as well. I am not asking you to cater for it, you have the freedom of choice to put your efforts in the parts you are interested in:-) I just wanted to make the community aware that there are people serious about desktop usage. So the FreeBSD project may consider it when making decisions. (Besides the forum is in another language so "invisible" outside Germany. As a German living in Australia I realize sometimes how people tend to interpolate from their own experience and generalize it. Often "Western world" or even "world" as such stands for the part of the world that speaks English or plays cricket and rugby;-) So people may overlook developments outside of it). Regards Peter From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 15 07:10:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE181065671 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 07:10:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from mail24.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail24.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.26]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 717B98FC15 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 07:10:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: (qmail 26222 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2008 06:43:24 -0000 Received: from mxperim4.sea5.speakeasy.net ([69.17.117.69]) (envelope-sender ) by mail24.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 15 Mar 2008 06:43:24 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mxperim4.sea5.speakeasy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF6356F995 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:43:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mxperim4.sea5.speakeasy.net Received: from mxperim4.sea5.speakeasy.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mxperim4.sea5.speakeasy.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XOHyAO0+ezoK for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w16.stradamotorsports.com (dsl081-163-042.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.163.42]) by mxperim4.sea5.speakeasy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47DB7009.1020606@highperformance.net> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:43:21 -0700 From: "Jason C. Wells" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4pre (X11/20080205) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fbsd_chat References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net><47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <20080110170010.GA16567@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu> <20080111115804.T2095@klein.bigpond.com> <47DAF203.40106@emailrob.com> In-Reply-To: <47DAF203.40106@emailrob.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: on content versus presentation [ was: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing ] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 07:10:05 -0000 spellberg_robert wrote: > when your content is sound, > the presentation will take care of itself. /me hands Rob a paragraph and some upper case letters. I'm sorry. I found it far too difficult to read your content. The poor presentation required more effort than I was willing to invest. Regards, Jason From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 15 10:36:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B1A106564A for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:36:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jon@seaholm.caamora.com.au) Received: from seaholm.caamora.com.au (seaholm.caamora.com.au [203.7.226.5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208568FC16 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:36:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jon@seaholm.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by seaholm.caamora.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id m2FAOW813159; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:24:32 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <20080315212432.45787@caamora.com.au> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:24:32 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: "Jason C. Wells" References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net><47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <20080110170010.GA16567@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu> <20080111115804.T2095@klein.bigpond.com> <47DAF203.40106@emailrob.com> <47DB7009.1020606@highperformance.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <47DB7009.1020606@highperformance.net>; from Jason C. Wells on Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 11:43:21PM -0700 Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Cc: fbsd_chat Subject: Re: on content versus presentation [ was: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing ] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:36:27 -0000 On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 11:43:21PM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > spellberg_robert wrote: > > > when your content is sound, > > the presentation will take care of itself. > > /me hands Rob a paragraph and some upper case letters. > > I'm sorry. I found it far too difficult to read your content. The poor > presentation required more effort than I was willing to invest. well, perhaps, now you might know how i feel about trying to may my way throught the way you all write and present you posts. i struggel to read the majority of posts .. not everybody read writes presents american english in teh way "some" americans read write and present thier version of english. perhaps, if we all spent less time worrying about how politically correct, how american sensabilities offending word/content .. this world is made up of people whole read, write and understand/comprehend at various and different levels of competence for whatever levels of comptance are available in these days of politically corrected school marking systems. we all use the 'lingua franca' at different levels of usability for all and different levels of competance for all and various differnt levels of the 'human' condition. my bodies uniqunesses help me see thes 'different levels' i write the way that i write because this is how best that i can see (as in visual acuity, as well as frontal cortex issues both learning) and understanding. at any rate this is how i see it and perhaps if we all (me included) spent more time understanding why people write the way that they might write rather than HOW they might write .. content is far, far more important than the presentation of that content. disabled, people, with english as a sencond language and a whole lot of stuff that is people in between ... sitting at our keyboards we can foreget that teh stuff out there is another person, a person not a machine providing content for our own consumption for our benefit. if this is how we treat people then it dosen't matter how good freebsd, is. going to be .. it dosent matter if when they come here to get help support and or information we treat tehm like grist for the mill, anotehr machine for teh provision off our content, our content, my content, is it worth it .. i ask this question every time i see this "you didn't provide _my_content_ " in the way that I want it to be provided, in teh way that it mkes it easy for me to use in teh way that i want to use it. put another way, "dr suess" has a lot to answer for in teh creation of .. this the "me" generation don't ya think ?? sorry for the out burst .. kind regards, sincere appreciations jonathan -- ================================================================ powered by .. QNX, OS9 and freeBSD -- http://caamora com au/operating system ==== === appropriate solution in an inappropriate world === ==== From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 15 17:28:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4E7D1065671 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 17:28:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from mail13.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail13.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.15]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7ED08FC1F for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 17:28:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: (qmail 25923 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2008 17:28:57 -0000 Received: from mxperim1.sea5.speakeasy.net ([69.17.117.66]) (envelope-sender ) by mail13.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 15 Mar 2008 17:28:57 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mxperim1.sea5.speakeasy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD648781D for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:28:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mxperim1.sea5.speakeasy.net Received: from mxperim1.sea5.speakeasy.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mxperim1.sea5.speakeasy.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ds-chHjw3LVc for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w16.stradamotorsports.com (dsl081-163-042.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.163.42]) by mxperim1.sea5.speakeasy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47DC0756.4050304@highperformance.net> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:28:54 -0700 From: "Jason C. Wells" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4pre (X11/20080205) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fbsd_chat References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net><47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <20080110170010.GA16567@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu> <20080111115804.T2095@klein.bigpond.com> <47DAF203.40106@emailrob.com> <47DB7009.1020606@highperformance.net> <20080315212432.45787@caamora.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20080315212432.45787@caamora.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: on content versus presentation [ was: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing ] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 17:28:59 -0000 jonathan michaels wrote: > On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 11:43:21PM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: >> spellberg_robert wrote: >> >>> when your content is sound, >>> the presentation will take care of itself. >> /me hands Rob a paragraph and some upper case letters. >> >> I'm sorry. I found it far too difficult to read your content. The poor >> presentation required more effort than I was willing to invest. > > well, perhaps, now you might know how i feel about trying to may my way throught the way you > all write and present you posts. i struggel to read the majority of > posts .. not everybody read writes presents american english in teh way > "some" americans read write and present thier version of english. You may struggle with the way we all write and present our posts. I'm sure that will improve with time and learning. But if you struggle with the most basic of the rules of grammar and language, the solution is not to ignore the grammar and language. > this world is made up of people whole read, write and > understand/comprehend at various and different levels of competence for > whatever levels of comptance are available in these days of politically > corrected school marking systems. To be sure. But deliberately avoiding the most simple rules does not aid communication. I should target my content to the level of the audience. My presentation should be correct _also_. > we all use the 'lingua franca' at different levels of usability for all > and different levels of competance for all and various differnt levels > of the 'human' condition. my bodies uniqunesses help me see thes > 'different levels' i write the way that i write because this is how > best that i can see (as in visual acuity, as well as frontal cortex > issues both learning) and understanding. Wow! That sure sounds fancy. Can your frontal cortex and visual acuity discern the shift key once in thirty keystrokes? But even your presentation is vastly superior to Rob's in that your paragraphs are at least paragraphs. That alone significantly aids communication. In fact, the reason that my reply to you is lengthy is a testament to the fact that your communication was more effective. Mind you, your presentation is not as I would have it be. But it is good enough that I don't have to struggle to comprehend you. > at any rate this is how i see it and perhaps if we all (me included) > spent more time understanding why people write the way that they might > write rather than HOW they might write .. content is far, far more important > than the presentation of that content. Do you suppose after 5,000 years of humans putting chisel to stone and pen to paper that we don't understand how people should write? We do. That's where grammar and language came from. Presentation elements are a critical part of that. Consider writing right to left. Consider writing bottom to top. These are merely presentational elements. In the context of a specific language it is quite important to write in the prescribed manner. (Hmmm, it just occured to me that an HTML renderer should be able to morph the directionality of language per CSS.) I won't disagree that content is more important. Presentation is about ease of use. Presentation is the ergonomics of the prose. And since good presentation is incredibly much more simple to attain than good content, one ought to put forth the very slight effort needed to achieve good presentation. And what's more. If you are e.e. cummings or Pablo Picasso than feel free to present as you see fit. All others, please color between the lines. > disabled, people, with english as a sencond language and a whole lot of > stuff that is people in between ... sitting at our keyboards we can > foreget that teh stuff out there is another person, a person not a > machine providing content for our own consumption for our benefit. If an author writes to an audience and that author is not writing for the audience's benefit, then what on Earth are they doing? Even now, while I try to persuade the FreeBSD audience, including yourself and Rob, that presentation is also important, I do so because I perceive there is a benefit to the audience. I may be wrong, but that is for the audience to decide. > if this is how we treat people then it dosen't matter how good freebsd, > is. The topic at hand was content versus presentation. The chief point was that presentation is also important to effective communication. My response was terse, but it was not ad hominem. > going to be .. it dosent matter if when they come here to get help Let's get the context correct here. Rob wasn't asking for help. He was pontificating on a topic of presentation, all while using horrendous presentation. I disagreed with his premise. I provided a case in point as rebuttal. Presentation doesn't work itself out. > support and or information we treat tehm like grist for the mill, > anotehr machine for teh provision off our content, our content, my > content, is it worth it .. i ask this question every time i see this > "you didn't provide _my_content_ " in the way that I want it to be > provided, in teh way that it mkes it easy for me to use in teh way that > i want to use it. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to read the FreeBSD handbook if every person who wanted to contribute content did so in a different presentation? I really think that you haven't thought this through very well. And as far as your claim about the selfishness of people wanting "their content" in "their way" I would advise you to consider that the audience and their considerations are vastly more important than the author's. The author should tune his content and his presentation to suit the needs of the audience. > put another way, "dr suess" has a lot to answer for in teh creation of > .. this the "me" generation don't ya think ?? No. Not at all. "I like green eggs and ham. Sam I am." You've twisted a narrow topic of content versus presentation into a broad criticism of all society's selfishness. Don't see the irony in your very own argument? I'm fairly certain that the larger share of the FreeBSD community and especially those engaged in the production of content do see the value of using consistent presentation, format, and tools. Why did I choose to expound to today? Now that I'm done I'm left scratching my head. At least Rob did recognize that "my target audience gets to decide for themselves." One of the things the target audience may decide is, this content is to hard to understand, given it's presentation. We all should be mindful of this. Regards, Jason From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 15 20:20:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 241C91065677 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 20:20:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) Received: from iron3.sfsu.edu (iron3.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.128]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 206E98FC29 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 20:20:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) X-onepass: IPPSC X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEADfG20eC1Apk/2dsb2JhbACnbA Received: from smtp01.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.100]) by iron3.sfsu.edu with ESMTP; 15 Mar 2008 12:53:07 -0700 Received: from libra.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.238]) by mail05a.sfsu.edu (Lotus Domino Release 7.0.3HF378) with ESMTP id 2008031512530588-652 ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 12:53:05 -0700 Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 12:53:05 -0700 (PDT) From: KAYVEN RIESE cc: fbsd_chat In-Reply-To: <47DB7009.1020606@highperformance.net> Message-ID: References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net><47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <20080110170010.GA16567@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu> <20080111115804.T2095@klein.bigpond.com> <47DAF203.40106@emailrob.com> <47DB7009.1020606@highperformance.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on MAIL05a/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.3HF378 | February 28, 2008) at 03/15/2008 12:53:05, Serialize by Router on SMTP01/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.3HF378 | February 28, 2008) at 03/15/2008 12:53:06, Serialize complete at 03/15/2008 12:53:06 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: on content versus presentation [ was: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing ] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 20:20:54 -0000 On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Jason C. Wells wrote: > spellberg_robert wrote: > >> when your content is sound, >> the presentation will take care of itself. > > /me hands Rob a paragraph and some upper case letters. > > I'm sorry. I found it far too difficult to read your content. The poor > presentation required more effort than I was willing to invest. BAH! who needs capitalization?? BAH!! > > Regards, > Jason > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 15 20:23:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF78106564A for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 20:23:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) Received: from iron3.sfsu.edu (iron3.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.128]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576FB8FC15 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 20:23:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) X-onepass: IPPSC X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApsEAD7N20eC1Apk/2dsb2JhbACJJZ4/ Received: from smtp01.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.100]) by iron3.sfsu.edu with ESMTP; 15 Mar 2008 13:23:21 -0700 Received: from libra.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.238]) by mail05a.sfsu.edu (Lotus Domino Release 7.0.3HF378) with ESMTP id 2008031513231881-654 ; Sat, 15 Mar 2008 13:23:18 -0700 Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 13:23:19 -0700 (PDT) From: KAYVEN RIESE To: jlm@caamora.com.au, "Jason C. Wells" In-Reply-To: <47DC0756.4050304@highperformance.net> Message-ID: References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net><47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <20080110170010.GA16567@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu> <20080111115804.T2095@klein.bigpond.com> <47DAF203.40106@emailrob.com> <47DB7009.1020606@highperformance.net> <20080315212432.45787@caamora.com.au> <47DC0756.4050304@highperformance.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on MAIL05a/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.3HF378 | February 28, 2008) at 03/15/2008 13:23:18, Serialize by Router on SMTP01/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.3HF378 | February 28, 2008) at 03/15/2008 13:23:20, Serialize complete at 03/15/2008 13:23:20 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: "j. ron heeblack" , fbsd_chat Subject: Re: on content versus presentation [ was: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing ] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 20:23:21 -0000 On Sat, 15 Mar 2008, Jason C. Wells wrote: > jonathan michaels wrote: >> On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 11:43:21PM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: >>> spellberg_robert wrote: >>> >>>> when your content is sound, >>>> the presentation will take care of itself. >>> /me hands Rob a paragraph and some upper case letters. BRAVO > >> we all use the 'lingua franca' at different levels of usability for all >> and different levels of competance for all and various differnt levels >> of the 'human' condition. my bodies uniqunesses help me see thes >> 'different levels' i write the way that i write because this is how >> best that i can see (as in visual acuity, as well as frontal cortex >> issues both learning) and understanding. > > Wow! That sure sounds fancy. INDEED! IMHO there should be a study on WPM no caps versus the carpal tunnel inducing "correct punctuation." > I won't disagree that content is more important. Presentation is about ease > of use. Presentation is the ergonomics of the prose. And since good > presentation is incredibly much more simple to attain than good content, one > ought to put forth the very slight effort needed to achieve good > presentation. > > And what's more. If you are e.e. cummings or Pablo Picasso than feel free to > present as you see fit. All others, please color between the lines. who is to say he ISN'T. i beg to differ with modern lovers, realistically pablo picasso was OFTEN called an asshole. you'd think this would be the 21st century and ppl would realize HOW MUCH TIME WE ARE WASTING on this "METACONTENT" the discussion of "inferior presentation" instead of getting to the business of HELP EACH OTHER HELP THE WORLD OPEN UP TO freeBSD!!!!!!!!!!! >> disabled, people, with english as a sencond language and a whole lot of >> stuff that is people in between ... sitting at our keyboards we can >> foreget that teh stuff out there is another person, a person not a >> machine providing content for our own consumption for our benefit. > > If an author writes to an audience and that author is not writing for the > audience's benefit, then what on Earth are they doing? Even now, while I try > to persuade the FreeBSD audience, including yourself and Rob, that > presentation is also important, I do so because I perceive there is a benefit > to the audience. I may be wrong, but that is for the audience to decide. i'm wearing a *@&# pink suit and *@#&ed no job for me. i REFUSE to place undue ephamphasis on NONSENSE before SENSE. LIES LIES LIES corporate lies PoLITICAL pressure! the PLANET HAS CANCER the oil companies playing the game of denial played by the cigarette companies in the 1950s DENIAL!! NO MONEY FOR YOUR "TRUTH!!!" it offends MY GOD OF THE GREEN TOILET PAPER WITH THE PYRAMID eye!!! all hallow the green paper! the economy MUST GROW!!! EARTH MUST BECOME JUPITER!!!!! http://www.kayve.net/kayve/index.html#arctic2007 > >> if this is how we treat people then it dosen't matter how good freebsd, >> is. > > The topic at hand was content versus presentation. The chief point was that > presentation is also important to effective communication. My response was > terse, but it was not ad hominem. the term is "you got short with him." "getting short" hurts. it hurts like the theist lie hurts. it hurts like no cookies. it hurts like you are a luser. http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/L/luser.html it hurts like "you're a stupid baby." it hurts like "you are a nigger." it hurts like "you did pretty good for a woman." > >> going to be .. it dosent matter if when they come here to get help > > Let's get the context correct here. Rob wasn't asking for help. He was > pontificating on a topic of presentation, all while using horrendous > presentation. I disagreed with his premise. I provided a case in point as > rebuttal. Presentation doesn't work itself out. > meanwhile, wtf cares about wtf the question was? there is still the bug somebody was asking about, and now we spend time getting hurt by being a "script kiddie" at age 41 and 11 months. it should have been "obvious" to anyone who has spent 10 years concentrating on some arcane minuitia! > I really think that you haven't thought this through very well. And as far as > your claim about the selfishness of people wanting "their content" in "their > way" I would advise you to consider that the audience and their > considerations are vastly more important than the author's. The author should > tune his content and his presentation to suit the needs of the audience. it would be nice if people just treated people with a little kindness, e.g. "I'm sorry, It is bothering me that you are not capitalizing, would you be so kind as to humor me on this one, my good man?" Okay. Etiquette. That's what it is there for. ::sigh:: Sad maturity is creeping upon mine loins. > I'm fairly certain that the larger share of the FreeBSD community and > especially those engaged in the production of content do see the value of > using consistent presentation, format, and tools. Why did I choose to > expound to today? Now that I'm done I'm left scratching my head. Otay. Let me scratch it for you then. ::scritch scritch:: Feel better now? Make nice? {:} > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------*