From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 29 13:14:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B3081065670; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:14:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from mail.zoral.com.ua (skuns.zoral.com.ua [91.193.166.194]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F405A8FC1E; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:14:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (root@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua [10.1.1.148]) by mail.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5TCqNSt040365 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:52:23 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (kostik@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5TCbYmx011306; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:37:34 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: (from kostik@localhost) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m5TCbXLV011305; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:37:33 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:37:33 +0300 From: Kostik Belousov To: Jeremy Chadwick Message-ID: <20080629123733.GO17123@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> <20080628235832.GA15910@eos.sc1.parodius.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="chReQkDOePndSGWY" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080628235832.GA15910@eos.sc1.parodius.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.4 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.4 (2008-01-01) on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:14:53 -0000 --chReQkDOePndSGWY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 04:58:32PM -0700, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 02:56:03PM -0700, John Kozubik wrote: > > I needed to set a user quota of greater than 2 TB today. I failed, > > because FreeBSD does not have 64-bit quota tools. > >=20 > > I wasted a fair amount of time trying to track down what I assumed was = my > > own user error. Surely there is _no way_ that an enterprise operating > > system, in 2008, has 32-bit quotas. > >=20 > > Now I know better. > >=20 > > I am upset to find that several of my non-technical friends now have > > larger filesystems _in their living rooms_ than FreeBSD can handle with > > quotas. > >=20 > > Quotas are a long-standing, core piece of filesystem functionality and > > have been considered a bedrock of unix operating systems for decades. > > There is nothing new or experimental in moving quotas from 32 to 64 bit. > >=20 > > This is _as opposed to_ porting ZFS to FreeBSD, and gjournal, and every > > other shiny bauble that has monopolized freebsd-fs in the last four yea= rs. > > Those are new. Those are experimental. > >=20 > > Apparently those take priority. > >=20 > > I don't have time to monitor the core pieces of FreeBSD to make sure _t= hey > > still exist_. Further, while I might have volunteered to help with the > > code back in 2004, when it took 5 hard drives to max out the usefulness= of > > the filesystem, that's not how I'll be spending my time in 2008. > >=20 > > So I'll try this instead: > >=20 > > I will paypal $1000 to whoever can deliver fully clean 64-bit quotas > > and userland tools in FreeBSD by July 20, 2008. > >=20 > > That is, if you can tear yourself away from ZFS and whatever sexy SMP > > improvements you're building into FreeBSD 14.0 for a week. >=20 > John, >=20 > We don't use quotas here, but FWIW, I agree with you. Additionally, > that 2GB limit should really be 4GB; someone likely used a signed number > instead of unsigned. >=20 > I'll take this project on (and there's no need for any monetary > exchange) if I can make heads or tails of the existing quota > infrastructure. No promises, but I'll at least look into it. I > definitely can't meet the July 20th deadline, sorry about that. The change alone of the 32/31-bit fields in the struct dqblk to the 64-bit is a trivial part. I think in-kernel part would simply work after the conversion, but I have no idea about user-mode utilites. Most likely, usermode would require some tweaking. Not so easy is the backward compatibility. Quota file is read/written directly by the kernel, and have no useful magic sequence to identify it. Some external measures are needed to inform kernel about the version of the dqblk on the disk. Then, either code shall be conditionalized to do the keeping in 32/64 bitness (preferrable), or old dqblk layout shall be converted from/to on i/o. Another useful thing to do with in-kernel quota implementation is to move it from ufs/ to the generic VFS service. Again, the code is mostly filesystem-neutral, and the change should be in the interfaces. This would make addition of the quota support for some non-ufs filesystems nearly trivial. --chReQkDOePndSGWY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkhngg0ACgkQC3+MBN1Mb4jjtgCg4qEHtKjnCZGtTEeFQ+68msnG GaMAnjpRhKcH3tnI3FuYhXBiDn600uHd =yliK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --chReQkDOePndSGWY-- From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 29 16:53:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F6C1065682 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:53:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCEB78FC17 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:53:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0672646C29; Sun, 29 Jun 2008 12:43:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:43:44 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Kostik Belousov In-Reply-To: <20080629123733.GO17123@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> Message-ID: <20080629174039.Q20262@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> <20080628235832.GA15910@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <20080629123733.GO17123@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:53:47 -0000 On Sun, 29 Jun 2008, Kostik Belousov wrote: > The change alone of the 32/31-bit fields in the struct dqblk to the 64-bit > is a trivial part. I think in-kernel part would simply work after the > conversion, but I have no idea about user-mode utilites. Most likely, > usermode would require some tweaking. > > Not so easy is the backward compatibility. Quota file is read/written > directly by the kernel, and have no useful magic sequence to identify it. > Some external measures are needed to inform kernel about the version of the > dqblk on the disk. Then, either code shall be conditionalized to do the > keeping in 32/64 bitness (preferrable), or old dqblk layout shall be > converted from/to on i/o. > > Another useful thing to do with in-kernel quota implementation is to move it > from ufs/ to the generic VFS service. Again, the code is mostly > filesystem-neutral, and the change should be in the interfaces. This would > make addition of the quota support for some non-ufs filesystems nearly > trivial. Quite, and compatibility needs to be done fairly carefully to prevent some rather awkward foot-shooting that might otherwise take place. One possibility might be to have a header the size of the existing dqblk and store a magic value (perhaps in the negative range) in one or both of the two signed int fields (dqb_btime and dqb_itime). Other than this one issue, updating to 64-bit support should really be no problem, and as the reporter points out, is long-overdue. FWIW, that "make it a library" change would be very similar to what we've done for ACLs, where there are central vfs_acl.c and subr_acl_posix1e.c which represent common system call code, and a library to be used by file systems in implementing ACLs to avoid duplicated code. I think Apple may already have made this change for quotas as well, btw. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 11:06:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D65C1065671 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:06:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1458FC32 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:06:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5UB6uTx095734 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:06:56 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.2/8.14.1/Submit) id m5UB6uQM095730 for freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:06:56 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:06:56 GMT Message-Id: <200806301106.m5UB6uQM095730@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:06:56 -0000 Current FreeBSD problem reports Critical problems Serious problems S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o kern/93942 fs [vfs] [patch] panic: ufs_dirbad: bad dir (patch from D o kern/112658 fs [smbfs] [patch] smbfs and caching problems (resolves b o kern/114676 fs [ufs] snapshot creation panics: snapacct_ufs2: bad blo o kern/116170 fs [panic] Kernel panic when mounting /tmp o bin/121072 fs [smbfs] mount_smbfs(8) cannot normally convert the cha o bin/122172 fs [fs]: amd(8) automount daemon dies on 6.3-STABLE i386, o kern/122888 fs [zfs] zfs hang w/ prefetch on, zil off while running t 7 problems total. Non-critical problems S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o bin/113049 fs [patch] [request] make quot(8) use getopt(3) and show o bin/113838 fs [patch] [request] mount(8): add support for relative p o bin/114468 fs [patch] [request] add -d option to umount(8) to detach o kern/114847 fs [ntfs] [patch] [request] dirmask support for NTFS ala o kern/114955 fs [cd9660] [patch] [request] support for mask,dirmask,ui o bin/118249 fs mv(1): moving a directory changes its mtime o kern/124621 fs [ext3] Cannot mount ext2fs partition 7 problems total. From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 12:06:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3CB810656B0 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:06:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD07F8FC1C for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:06:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEDFC2083; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:51:04 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: John Kozubik References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:51:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> (John Kozubik's message of "Sat\, 28 Jun 2008 14\:56\:03 -0700 \(PDT\)") Message-ID: <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:06:53 -0000 John Kozubik writes: > I needed to set a user quota of greater than 2 TB today. I failed, > because FreeBSD does not have 64-bit quota tools. > [long rant about how 64-bit quotas should take precedence over > everything else we do] FreeBSD is a volunteer-driven open source project. Basically, this means you don't get to dictate what people work on. It also means you don't get to throw shit at people the way you just did. > Quotas are a long-standing, core piece of filesystem functionality and > have been considered a bedrock of unix operating systems for decades. I dunno, I've never used them, nor have I ever encountered them in any of the places I've worked or studied. Frankly, disk space is so cheap these days (as you point out yourself) that I don't see the point. > There is nothing new or experimental in moving quotas from 32 to 64 bit. It breaks backward compat rather badly. All quotas need to be recalculated, and there no way to tell whether the existing quota file is 32-bit or 64-bit. > This is _as opposed to_ porting ZFS to FreeBSD, and gjournal, and every > other shiny bauble that has monopolized freebsd-fs in the last four > years. Those "shiny baubles", not quotas, are what make FreeBSD a viable server operating system in 2008. BTW, ZFS has 128-bit quotas. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 13:17:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71088106568C for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:17:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from flat.berklix.org (flat.berklix.org [83.236.223.115]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D560E8FC24 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:17:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A7109.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.113.9]) (authenticated bits=0) by flat.berklix.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5UD5CCM089393; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:05:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5UD4uQX042855; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:04:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m5UD4fVw001005; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:04:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200806301304.m5UD4fVw001005@fire.js.berklix.net> To: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= From: "Julian Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:51:04 +0200." <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:04:41 +0200 Sender: jhs@berklix.org Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:17:11 -0000 > FreeBSD is a volunteer-driven open source project. Basically, this > means you don't get to dictate what people work on. It also means you > don't get to throw shit at people the way you just did. It was a mixed post, but he did offer money unlike most complainers :-) I will extract a bit of John Kozubik's $1000 offer to jobs@freebsd maybe someone there has the time & needs the money. Julian -- Julian Stacey: BSDUnixLinux C Prog Admin SysEng Consult Munich www.berklix.com Mail plain ASCII text. HTML & Base64 text are spam. www.asciiribbon.org From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 14:47:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64781106567E for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:47:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [69.43.165.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8498FC1C for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:47:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5UFB5uV086391; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:11:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) with ESMTP id m5UFB46h086384; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:11:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:11:04 -0700 (PDT) From: John Kozubik To: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> Message-ID: <20080630073539.U1807@kozubik.com> References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:47:10 -0000 On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, [utf-8] Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > John Kozubik writes: > > I needed to set a user quota of greater than 2 TB today. I failed, > > because FreeBSD does not have 64-bit quota tools. > > [long rant about how 64-bit quotas should take precedence over > > everything else we do] > > FreeBSD is a volunteer-driven open source project. Basically, this > means you don't get to dictate what people work on. It also means you > don't get to throw shit at people the way you just did. When I offered monetary rewards for these items: http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/2007cb.html http://blog.kozubik.com/john_kozubik/2007/12/bounty-posted-f.html they were merely polite suggestions. That's because, at the end of the day, FreeBSD on the desktop, and these particular aspects of FreeBSD on the desktop, must be kept a bit down on the priority list. The core, expected functionality of a unix operating system are a different story. Nobody cares about your feelings. > > There is nothing new or experimental in moving quotas from 32 to 64 bit= =2E > > It breaks backward compat rather badly. All quotas need to be > recalculated, and there no way to tell whether the existing quota file > is 32-bit or 64-bit. As I said, nothing new or experimental. Please note that you've had five years to address this: http://www.freebsd.org/projects/bigdisk/index.html That task list, and the things left undone on it, are a joke. > > This is _as opposed to_ porting ZFS to FreeBSD, and gjournal, and every > > other shiny bauble that has monopolized freebsd-fs in the last four > > years. > > Those "shiny baubles", not quotas, are what make FreeBSD a viable server > operating system in 2008. You are wrong. No set of services is worthwhile[1] without a solid foundation. You may not use a lot of core, historical pieces of a unix system, but you should be alarmed to find them missing or broken. I regret not aggressively pursuing this four years ago. [1] I am _very_ excited about ZFS on FreeBSD and amazed at the great work that pjd and others have put into it. They have total freedom to pursue whatever they choose. However, FreeBSD has a core team for a reason - direction and priorities need to be set and followed. It is the asymmetry of attention and priority between the new and experimental and the old and foundational that I am so troubled with. ----- John Kozubik - john@kozubik.com - http://www.kozubik.com From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 15:26:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E583106567B for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:26:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F06F8FC1D; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:26:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4868FB2F.7010204@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:26:39 +0200 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Kozubik References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080630073539.U1807@kozubik.com> In-Reply-To: <20080630073539.U1807@kozubik.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:26:42 -0000 John Kozubik wrote: > [1] I am _very_ excited about ZFS on FreeBSD and amazed at the great work > that pjd and others have put into it. They have total freedom to pursue > whatever they choose. However, FreeBSD has a core team for a reason - > direction and priorities need to be set and followed. FreeBSD does indeed have a core team for several reasons, but directing other developers to work on projects isn't among them. Indeed, you say as much in your previous sentence, but perhaps this is the cognitive dissonance at the core of your misunderstanding. Furthermore, every FreeBSD user has a different idea of what constitutes the "core" of the operating system, for them. quota support is obviously in your core feature set. That's fine, and I applaud you for doing something about its deficiencies (although as I have already noted, not your attitude in doing so). However, quota support is not in the core feature set of most developers, or dare I say most users. Likewise, you may be surprised to hear what kind of "peripheral" features other users and developers consider to be "core". For me, ZFS has become a core feature, even though to you it's merely a "shiny bauble". I am sure we can point to most systems in FreeBSD and find a user somewhere who considers it to be an indispensible, "core feature". Kris From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 15:34:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473351065673 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:34:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07CEE8FC23 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:34:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892742086; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:34:39 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: John Kozubik References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080630073539.U1807@kozubik.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:34:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20080630073539.U1807@kozubik.com> (John Kozubik's message of "Mon\, 30 Jun 2008 08\:11\:04 -0700 \(PDT\)") Message-ID: <86prpzq6lt.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:34:41 -0000 John Kozubik writes: > On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, [utf-8] Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > > John Kozubik writes: > > > [long rant about how 64-bit quotas should take precedence over > > > everything else we do] > > FreeBSD is a volunteer-driven open source project. Basically, this > > means you don't get to dictate what people work on. It also means > > you don't get to throw shit at people the way you just did. > When I offered monetary rewards for these items: > > http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/2007cb.html > > http://blog.kozubik.com/john_kozubik/2007/12/bounty-posted-f.html > > they were merely polite suggestions. That's because, at the end of the > day, FreeBSD on the desktop, and these particular aspects of FreeBSD on > the desktop, must be kept a bit down on the priority list. > > The core, expected functionality of a unix operating system are a > different story. Nobody cares about your feelings. You seriously need to reconsider your attitude. FreeBSD is volunteer-driven. If you want something done, you can either do it yourself, or provide incentive for someone else to do it for you. I see you're trying to do the latter, and that's great, but it does *not* entitle you to berate people for doing something else. Bear in mind, also, that this is not a zero-sum game. Pawel and Ivan worked on ZFS and gjournal because they felt like it. If they hadn't been allowed to do so, they wouldn't have fixed quotas instead; they would just have gone somewhere else. > > > There is nothing new or experimental in moving quotas from 32 to > > > 64 bit. > > It breaks backward compat rather badly. All quotas need to be > > recalculated, and there no way to tell whether the existing quota > > file is 32-bit or 64-bit. > As I said, nothing new or experimental. I hardly think you're qualified to judge the level of difficulty involved. If you were, you'd be busy fixing the problem, not bitching about it. > Please note that you've had five years to address this: > > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/bigdisk/index.html > > That task list, and the things left undone on it, are a joke. Absolutely. Lists like this are pointless: they are never complete, they are never up-to-date, and they never reflect the relative importance of the listed items accurately. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 15:41:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4496106566C; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:41:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [69.43.165.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A75268FC1D; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:41:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5UG5n5I091457; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:05:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) with ESMTP id m5UG5mZu091453; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:05:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:05:48 -0700 (PDT) From: John Kozubik To: Kris Kennaway In-Reply-To: <4868FB2F.7010204@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: <20080630085612.G1807@kozubik.com> References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080630073539.U1807@kozubik.com> <4868FB2F.7010204@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:41:53 -0000 On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, Kris Kennaway wrote: > However, quota support is not in the core feature set of most > developers, or dare I say most users. > > Likewise, you may be surprised to hear what kind of "peripheral" > features other users and developers consider to be "core". For me, ZFS > has become a core feature, even though to you it's merely a "shiny > bauble". I am sure we can point to most systems in FreeBSD and find a > user somewhere who considers it to be an indispensible, "core feature". That point is well taken. However, regardless of the adoption rate, I _do_ believe that there is still a qualitative difference between quotas and, for instance, ZFS - in terms of "coreness". I believe this because of the historical presence of this functionality and the reasonable expectation that it represents a basic function of a unix-based OS (not just FreeBSD). This may change. It may, as you say, be changing as we speak. That is why I regret not speaking up years ago when the bigdisk "progress" page was still only a minor embarrassment. That is also why I have offered funds for the work. From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 16:09:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9E01065676 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:09:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [69.43.165.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CA68FC14 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:09:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5UGXloS092026; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) with ESMTP id m5UGXkLU092023; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:33:46 -0700 (PDT) From: John Kozubik To: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: <86prpzq6lt.fsf@ds4.des.no> Message-ID: <20080630090947.H1807@kozubik.com> References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080630073539.U1807@kozubik.com> <86prpzq6lt.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:09:52 -0000 On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, [utf-8] Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > Bear in mind, also, that this is not a zero-sum game. Pawel and Ivan > worked on ZFS and gjournal because they felt like it. If they hadn't > been allowed to do so, they wouldn't have fixed quotas instead; they > would just have gone somewhere else. Perhaps. Like I said, I'm excited about ZFS and the experimental work being done - so long as the existing core remains functional. However, I wonder how a call to action and a sense of priority would have affected their own priorities in these past five years. Somewhere, a collective decision was made that these things being broken were somehow acceptable and reasonable, and that decision was reaffirmed year after year. That is what I am upset about. > > > > There is nothing new or experimental in moving quotas from 32 to > > > > 64 bit. > > > It breaks backward compat rather badly. All quotas need to be > > > recalculated, and there no way to tell whether the existing quota > > > file is 32-bit or 64-bit. > > As I said, nothing new or experimental. > > I hardly think you're qualified to judge the level of difficulty > involved. If you were, you'd be busy fixing the problem, not bitching > about it. I can do this. It would take me 4x as long and would require auditing and corrections greater than or equal to the time it takes (for instance) someone like you to do it. We have comparative advantages at particular activities. I pursue what I am best at, you pursue what you are best at, and we exchange them in the marketplace. The world becomes slightly better. We forget that this community is a marketplace because most transactions are based on goodwill only. It shouldn't be surprising that an offer of something more than goodwill is accompanied by something more than meek suggestion. From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 16:34:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984421065686 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:34:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5917D8FC14 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:34:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95E4A2049; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:34:38 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: John Kozubik References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080630073539.U1807@kozubik.com> <86prpzq6lt.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080630090947.H1807@kozubik.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:34:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20080630090947.H1807@kozubik.com> (John Kozubik's message of "Mon\, 30 Jun 2008 09\:33\:46 -0700 \(PDT\)") Message-ID: <86fxqurie9.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:34:40 -0000 John Kozubik writes: > I can do this. It would take me 4x as long and would require auditing > and corrections greater than or equal to the time it takes (for instance) > someone like you to do it. > [...] > We forget that this community is a marketplace because most transactions > are based on goodwill only. It shouldn't be surprising that an offer of > something more than goodwill is accompanied by something more than meek > suggestion. I don't get it. Do you think that just because you put money on the table - of your own free will, without anyone asking you to do so - you get to order us around? Besides, do you think anyone is impressed by the sum you're offering? At my usual rate, it would buy you around five hours of my time. If you want someone you can order around, hire them, pay them real money, and *then* tell them what to do; but as long as you want them to work for free (or as close as makes no difference), you'll have to stick to meek suggestions. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 17:17:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0391065670 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:17:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (kozubik.com [69.43.165.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005FF8FC20 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:17:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from kozubik.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kozubik.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5UHf3Va098662; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:41:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Received: from localhost (john@localhost) by kozubik.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) with ESMTP id m5UHf35C098659; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:41:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@kozubik.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:41:03 -0700 (PDT) From: John Kozubik To: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: <86fxqurie9.fsf@ds4.des.no> Message-ID: <20080630103210.B1807@kozubik.com> References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080630073539.U1807@kozubik.com> <86prpzq6lt.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080630090947.H1807@kozubik.com> <86fxqurie9.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:17:08 -0000 On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, [utf-8] Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > John Kozubik writes: > > I can do this. It would take me 4x as long and would require auditing > > and corrections greater than or equal to the time it takes (for instanc= e) > > someone like you to do it. > > [...] > > We forget that this community is a marketplace because most transaction= s > > are based on goodwill only. It shouldn't be surprising that an offer o= f > > something more than goodwill is accompanied by something more than meek > > suggestion. > > I don't get it. Do you think that just because you put money on the > table - of your own free will, without anyone asking you to do so - you > get to order us around? No. I think that putting money on the table will demonstrate just how deeply I am frustrated by these issues. I understand that you aren't interested in this work. Thank you, nonetheless, for all the work that you do for FreeBSD. From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 17:35:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72FA21065676 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:35:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-fs@wheelhouse.org) Received: from mail.phx6.nearlyfreespeech.net (mail.phx6.nearlyfreespeech.net [64.38.220.166]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0B48FC28 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:35:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-fs@wheelhouse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.201] (78.193.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com [65.33.193.78]) by mail.phx6.nearlyfreespeech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2E95EBC54 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:16:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <2D2DBAC8-43E2-4AB8-9EEE-44C8304A0E82@wheelhouse.org> From: Jeff Wheelhouse To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20080630085612.G1807@kozubik.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:16:11 -0400 References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080630073539.U1807@kozubik.com> <4868FB2F.7010204@FreeBSD.org> <20080630085612.G1807@kozubik.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Cc: Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:35:42 -0000 I suspect a lot of John's frustration on this issue stems from the amount of effort he put into getting it to work before realizing it was a lost cause. I suspect that a lot of that work occurred because the 32-bit limitation is not well documented. Maybe edquota(1) deserves an update reflecting the limitation, so the next guy doesn't waste a day? I have a separate, semi-sarcastic rhetorical question: if John is really the only person left using quotas, and he's willing to bite the bullet, is backwards-compatibility really that big of a deal? :-) Disclosure: I don't use quotas (but one of my companies is a customer of one of John's, so I assume they affect us indirectly). That said, yes, I'd agree with his statement that quotas are one of those features that I would expect to see present and working in a *Nix operating system. The tone of John's message was definitely short in the tact department, due no doubt to the aforementioned frustration, but the content appears to be this: FreeBSD is the operating system that uses "The Power To Serve" as its tagline. In 2008, 64 bit filesystem quotas are a reasonable expectation from a server operating system. What will it take to make that happen? As far as the resulting argument, which is as old as the hills, it is fundamental to open source projects. In my personal opinion, one of the reasons people pick FreeBSD over Linux (for example) is because of the tighter, more stable, more reliable, less "shiny-bauble"-oriented control exerted by the core team. That's waned, somewhat, out of competitive necessity and out of the "well if I can't work on teh sexay here, I'll go somewhere else" attitude justifiably espoused by people who are doing it out of personal desire. ZFS is kind of an ugly example of "coreness," because a lot of the traffic on this list is devoted to the ZFS deadlocks, crashes and other problems that render it suitable only as an "experimental" in 7.0. Historically, my impression of FreeBSD is that it doesn't tend to put "experimental" and "core" labels on the same feature. That's why I depend on it. At the same time, there are *thousands* of open PRs on problems that have been open for years because the problems, while they may be important, aren't sexy enough to attract the attention of people who work for free. If you're trying to run a business and you're hit by these types of problems, yeah, it's pretty frustrating. So are the "fix it yourself, if you care so much" and/or "I don't want to fix it and you can't make me" responses that inevitably follow, particularly if you don't have the expertise to do it yourself or the money to pay a developer to do it for you, if you could even find one. There is a lot of unsexy work that, left to their own devices, nobody is ever going to do. (Which is not to imply that it never happens; I'm thrilled and grateful that we finally got a working nullfs after I- don't-know-how-many-years.) It sounds like part of John's frustration is that he'd like the core team to take a more active rule in convincing people to do that unsexy but important work. I don't know about him, but I use FreeBSD in a very mission critical way. It is the single most important piece of software we run, but we pay nothing for it. I'm not running any big rich companies but I could probably afford a few hundred dollars a month, and I'd be more than willing to spend that on a support contract on FreeBSD, similar in spirit to what we paid Sun all those years ago, if it would help our FreeBSD problems get fixed even when they weren't sexy. Now I don't hold any mistaken memory that having a support contract with Sun guaranteed that SunOS bugs/limitations we found automatically got fixed, but Sun does/did officially pay people to do work that was important but not sexy, and there is an advantage in that. I know there are all sorts of FreeBSD support offerings out there, but I don't believe any of them are "official." And, as far as I know, very few of them go to the level of fixing bugs in the source and committing the changes back to FreeBSD. Those that do seem to charge a heftily-inflated per-hour fee to do so. I also know that there are zillions of ways to financially support FreeBSD. But, like John and like the developers who work for free, I am motivated by self-interest. I want the equivalent of a maintenance contract; if I open my wallet, I want that money to go toward *maintaining* FreeBSD: fixing what's broke and keeping existing things updated, not paying to accelerate new feature development that (a) people are already willing to do for free and (b) may or may not benefit me. For something like that, I'd be looking for somebody "official," somebody who cares enough about FreeBSD, cares about its reputation (and reality) as a rock-solid bulletproof server OS, someone who uses the money that comes in to improve FreeBSD, and not to fund a fancy professional consultancy. Somebody connected enough to know where limited funds can make the biggest difference, and to whom they should be directed to make that difference. I don't know if that would be a job for the core team, or the FreeBSD Foundation, or who exactly, but it sure would be neat if it were *somebody's* job. Thanks, Jeff From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 30 21:40:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A9A106568B for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:40:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DFFE8FC36 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:40:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (gnats@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5ULe4sB067140 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:40:04 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.2/8.14.1/Submit) id m5ULe4LF067139; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:40:04 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:40:04 GMT Message-Id: <200806302140.m5ULe4LF067139@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org From: Joerg Wunsch Cc: Subject: Re: kern/114676: snapshot creation panics: snapacct_ufs2: bad block X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Joerg Wunsch List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:40:04 -0000 The following reply was made to PR kern/114676; it has been noted by GNATS. From: Joerg Wunsch To: bug-followup@freebsd.org Cc: Subject: Re: kern/114676: snapshot creation panics: snapacct_ufs2: bad block Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 22:34:42 +0200 FreeBSD-7-stable is completely unstable for me due to this panic. I used to have regular snapshots enabled on /var and /home. While there has been random (and not quite reproducible) file corruption happened within snapshotted binary files in the past, after upgrading from FreeBSD 6.x to 7-stable, the system went completely unstable due to this panic. It crashes every couple of days now. I have already disabled the regular snapshots, but it's got a tendency for a complete hard lockup during startup after a crash. The only remedy then is to manually fsck everything in single-user mode. Here's the dump information from the recent crash dumps: Dump header from device /dev/ad4s1b Architecture: i386 Architecture Version: 2 Dump Length: 317976576B (303 MB) Blocksize: 512 Dumptime: Wed Jun 25 04:10:25 2008 Hostname: uriah.heep.sax.de Magic: FreeBSD Kernel Dump Version String: FreeBSD 7.0-STABLE #5: Tue Jun 17 15:06:46 MET DST 2008 r@uriah.heep.sax.de:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/URIAH Panic String: snapacct_ufs2: bad block Dump Parity: 558154102 Bounds: 42 Dump Status: good Dump header from device /dev/ad4s1b Architecture: i386 Architecture Version: 2 Dump Length: 180707328B (172 MB) Blocksize: 512 Dumptime: Mon Jun 30 22:05:09 2008 Hostname: uriah.heep.sax.de Magic: FreeBSD Kernel Dump Version String: FreeBSD 7.0-STABLE #6: Mon Jun 30 21:24:35 MET DST 2008 root@uriah.heep.sax.de:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/URIAH Panic String: snapacct_ufs2: bad block Dump Parity: 859829782 Bounds: 43 Dump Status: good I'm going to avoid /any/ kind of snapshot (even dump -L) now just to get a stable system again (hopefully). -- cheers, J"org .-.-. --... ...-- -.. . DL8DTL http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 1 00:26:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C40C1065671 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 00:26:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from smarthost2.sentex.ca (smarthost2.sentex.ca [205.211.164.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2EC28FC16 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 00:26:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from Mobile2.sentex.ca (cage.simianscience.com [64.7.134.1]) by smarthost2.sentex.ca (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id m610EYqv053311; Mon, 30 Jun 2008 20:14:35 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) From: mike@sentex.net To: John Kozubik Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 20:14:38 -0400 Message-ID: <6kti64tf86fshn7s38dfe41jb3oucslsrf@4ax.com> References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> In-Reply-To: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 205.211.164.50 Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 00:26:19 -0000 On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 14:56:03 -0700 (PDT), in sentex.lists.freebsd.fs > >So I'll try this instead: > >I will paypal $1000 to whoever can deliver fully clean 64-bit quotas >and userland tools in FreeBSD by July 20, 2008. > We dont need this feature now, but will one day. We will add another $250 to the mix either via paypal or to the FreeBSD foundation... ---Mike From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 1 13:22:40 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3A5106567F for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:22:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew@areilly.bpa.nu) Received: from nskntqsrv01p.mx.bigpond.com (nskntqsrv01p.mx.bigpond.com [61.9.168.231]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC348FC14 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:22:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew@areilly.bpa.nu) Received: from nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com ([124.188.162.219]) by nskntmtas05p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080701035808.IPIC3571.nskntmtas05p.mx.bigpond.com@nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 03:58:08 +0000 Received: from areilly.bpa.nu ([124.188.162.219]) by nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20080701035808.VDFR12679.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@areilly.bpa.nu> for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 03:58:08 +0000 Received: (qmail 25440 invoked by uid 501); 1 Jul 2008 03:57:55 -0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:57:55 +1000 From: Andrew Reilly To: John Kozubik Message-ID: <20080701035755.GA23685@duncan.reilly.home> References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080630073539.U1807@kozubik.com> <4868FB2F.7010204@FreeBSD.org> <20080630085612.G1807@kozubik.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080630085612.G1807@kozubik.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-RPD-ScanID: Class unknown; VirusThreatLevel unknown, RefID str=0001.0A150202.4869AB50.0044,ss=1,fgs=0 Cc: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 13:22:40 -0000 On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 09:05:48AM -0700, John Kozubik wrote: > That point is well taken. However, regardless of the adoption rate, I > _do_ believe that there is still a qualitative difference between quotas > and, for instance, ZFS - in terms of "coreness". One qualitative difference is that lots of people seem to be interested in ZFS. I haven't seen any mention of quotas for many years. In fact, I was under a vague impression that they hadn't worked since UFS2, and that that was still the case because no-one cared. > I believe this because of the historical presence of this functionality > and the reasonable expectation that it represents a basic function of a > unix-based OS (not just FreeBSD). There are lots of historical functionalities that are no longer part of the OS. Things change. Now it may be that quotas are indeed useful enough to be salvaged in a geric fashion (applicable to arbitrary filesystems, as has been mentioned). Not my call: I'm certainly not going to do the work. But with the level of use in recent years, maybe the right answer is to consign them to the bin (or an optional GEOM layer or whatever), along with tty line disciplines, uucp, isdn and X10? Cheers, Andrew From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 1 13:59:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC4B106567C; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:59:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rebehn@ant.uni-bremen.de) Received: from antsrv1.ant.uni-bremen.de (antsrv1.ant.uni-bremen.de [134.102.176.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC10A8FC1C; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:59:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rebehn@ant.uni-bremen.de) Received: from bremerhaven.ant.uni-bremen.de ([134.102.176.10]) by antsrv1.ant.uni-bremen.de with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1KDg4C-000NEc-O9; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 15:38:44 +0200 Message-ID: <486A3365.7020500@ant.uni-bremen.de> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 15:38:45 +0200 From: Heinrich Rebehn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.8.1.13) Gecko/20080313 SeaMonkey/1.1.9 (Ubuntu-1.1.9+nobinonly-0ubuntu1) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Reilly References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080630073539.U1807@kozubik.com> <4868FB2F.7010204@FreeBSD.org> <20080630085612.G1807@kozubik.com> <20080701035755.GA23685@duncan.reilly.home> In-Reply-To: <20080701035755.GA23685@duncan.reilly.home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 13:59:06 -0000 Andrew Reilly wrote: > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 09:05:48AM -0700, John Kozubik wrote: >> That point is well taken. However, regardless of the adoption rate, I >> _do_ believe that there is still a qualitative difference between quotas >> and, for instance, ZFS - in terms of "coreness". > > One qualitative difference is that lots of people seem to be > interested in ZFS. I haven't seen any mention of quotas for > many years. In fact, I was under a vague impression that they > hadn't worked since UFS2, and that that was still the case > because no-one cared. They *do* work and we do use them. You need them if lots of users share a common disk. The fact that they are not mentioned, only means that they "simply work". > >> I believe this because of the historical presence of this functionality >> and the reasonable expectation that it represents a basic function of a >> unix-based OS (not just FreeBSD). > > There are lots of historical functionalities that are no longer > part of the OS. Things change. > > Now it may be that quotas are indeed useful enough to > be salvaged in a geric fashion (applicable to arbitrary > filesystems, as has been mentioned). Not my call: I'm certainly > not going to do the work. But with the level of use in recent > years, maybe the right answer is to consign them to the bin > (or an optional GEOM layer or whatever), along with tty line > disciplines, uucp, isdn and X10? With this reasoning you could also drop the shell and tell people to use kde. BTW, X10 has been replaced by X11 ;-) Cheers, Heinrich From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 1 14:05:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 927451065686; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:05:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512778FC16; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:05:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD84209A; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 16:05:07 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Heinrich Rebehn References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080630073539.U1807@kozubik.com> <4868FB2F.7010204@FreeBSD.org> <20080630085612.G1807@kozubik.com> <20080701035755.GA23685@duncan.reilly.home> <486A3365.7020500@ant.uni-bremen.de> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:05:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: <486A3365.7020500@ant.uni-bremen.de> (Heinrich Rebehn's message of "Tue\, 01 Jul 2008 15\:38\:45 +0200") Message-ID: <86skutzoml.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:05:09 -0000 Heinrich Rebehn writes: > Andrew Reilly writes: > > But with the level of use in recent years, maybe the right answer is > > to consign them to the bin (or an optional GEOM layer or whatever), > > along with tty line disciplines, uucp, isdn and X10? > With this reasoning you could also drop the shell and tell people to > use kde. BTW, X10 has been replaced by X11 ;-) No, the X10 Andrew refers to has been replaced by better standards such as LonWorks. JFGI. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 1 18:08:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC8D1106566C for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:08:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from mail.bitblocks.com (mail.bitblocks.com [64.142.15.60]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12A48FC1B for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:08:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (localhost.bitblocks.com [127.0.0.1]) by mail.bitblocks.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B76F5B4B; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:59:31 -0700 (PDT) To: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:05:06 +0200." <86skutzoml.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 10:59:31 -0700 From: Bakul Shah Message-Id: <20080701175932.0B76F5B4B@mail.bitblocks.com> Cc: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 18:08:30 -0000 On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:05:06 +0200 =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= wrote: > Heinrich Rebehn writes: > > Andrew Reilly writes: > > > But with the level of use in recent years, maybe the right answer is > > > to consign them to the bin (or an optional GEOM layer or whatever), > > > along with tty line disciplines, uucp, isdn and X10? > > With this reasoning you could also drop the shell and tell people to > > use kde. BTW, X10 has been replaced by X11 ;-) > > No, the X10 Andrew refers to has been replaced by better standards such > as LonWorks. JFGI. Hey, X10 works well enough and you can still get X10 modules and controllers. But you don't need any kernel support; just need one little program. I still do this: x10 switch printer on x10 switch printer off Besides, LonWorks is already pass\xe9 -- from what I hear the latest hot thing is zigbee (but that was last month; surely a new standard is afoot by now). To bring this back on topic, perhaps John Kobuzik can just use the zfs since it already has quota support? For example, # zfs create z/foo # zfs quota=10M z/foo dd < /dev/zero bs=1M count=20 > /z/foo/xx dd: stdout: Disc quota exceeded 11+0 records in 10+0 records out 10485760 bytes transferred in 4.718700 secs (2222171 bytes/sec) # zfs set quota=10T z/foo # zfs get quota z/foo NAME PROPERTY VALUE SOURCE z/foo quota 10T local From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 1 20:30:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79CB2106567F for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 20:30:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50E68FC1F for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 20:30:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de ([10.1.1.7]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m61K35An070609 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:03:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from cicely7.cicely.de (cicely7.cicely.de [10.1.1.9]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m61K2tKD098749 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:02:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from cicely7.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely7.cicely.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m61K2tNd028687; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:02:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely7.cicely.de (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m61K2sD8028686; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:02:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:02:54 +0200 From: Bernd Walter To: Bakul Shah Message-ID: <20080701200254.GB17364@cicely7.cicely.de> References: <86skutzoml.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080701175932.0B76F5B4B@mail.bitblocks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080701175932.0B76F5B4B@mail.bitblocks.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely7.cicely.de 7.0-STABLE i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, AWL=0.048, BAYES_00=-2.599 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on spamd.cicely.de Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 20:30:45 -0000 On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 10:59:31AM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: > On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:05:06 +0200 =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= wrote: > > Heinrich Rebehn writes: > > > Andrew Reilly writes: > > > > But with the level of use in recent years, maybe the right answer is > > > > to consign them to the bin (or an optional GEOM layer or whatever), > > > > along with tty line disciplines, uucp, isdn and X10? > > > With this reasoning you could also drop the shell and tell people to > > > use kde. BTW, X10 has been replaced by X11 ;-) > > > > No, the X10 Andrew refers to has been replaced by better standards such > > as LonWorks. JFGI. > > Hey, X10 works well enough and you can still get X10 modules > and controllers. But you don't need any kernel support; just > need one little program. I still do this: > > x10 switch printer on > > x10 switch printer off > > Besides, LonWorks is already pass\xe9 -- from what I hear the > latest hot thing is zigbee (but that was last month; surely a > new standard is afoot by now). > > To bring this back on topic, perhaps John Kobuzik can just > use the zfs since it already has quota support? For example, > > # zfs create z/foo > # zfs quota=10M z/foo > dd < /dev/zero bs=1M count=20 > /z/foo/xx > dd: stdout: Disc quota exceeded > 11+0 records in > 10+0 records out > 10485760 bytes transferred in 4.718700 secs (2222171 bytes/sec) > # zfs set quota=10T z/foo > # zfs get quota z/foo > NAME PROPERTY VALUE SOURCE > z/foo quota 10T local This is basicly what the partition size is for normal filesystems, with the great ability of course to change it cheaply at any time. But this is in no way a per user quota in the way ufs does. -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de Modbus/TCP Ethernet I/O Baugruppen, ARM basierte FreeBSD Rechner uvm. From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 1 21:30:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D2091065679; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 21:30:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from mail.bitblocks.com (mail.bitblocks.com [64.142.15.60]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D6288FC1B; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 21:30:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (localhost.bitblocks.com [127.0.0.1]) by mail.bitblocks.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D675B4B; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:30:06 -0700 (PDT) To: ticso@cicely.de In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:02:54 +0200." <20080701200254.GB17364@cicely7.cicely.de> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:30:06 -0700 From: Bakul Shah Message-Id: <20080701213006.37D675B4B@mail.bitblocks.com> Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:30:07 -0000 On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:02:54 +0200 Bernd Walter wrote: > On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 10:59:31AM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: > > To bring this back on topic, perhaps John Kobuzik can just > > use the zfs since it already has quota support? For example, > > > > # zfs create z/foo > > # zfs quota=10M z/foo > > dd < /dev/zero bs=1M count=20 > /z/foo/xx > > dd: stdout: Disc quota exceeded > > 11+0 records in > > 10+0 records out > > 10485760 bytes transferred in 4.718700 secs (2222171 bytes/sec) > > # zfs set quota=10T z/foo > > # zfs get quota z/foo > > NAME PROPERTY VALUE SOURCE > > z/foo quota 10T local > > This is basicly what the partition size is for normal filesystems, > with the great ability of course to change it cheaply at any time. > But this is in no way a per user quota in the way ufs does. It is not the same but can serve a similer purpose if each user gets his own filesystem (and yes, I am aware of the rebooting issue with zfs with thousands of filesystems). He wanted support for 2TB+ quota on ufs by July 20. If that doesn't happen at least he can limp along with this. From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 1 22:13:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCB7E1065670; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:13:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323BA8FC16; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:13:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de ([10.1.1.7]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m61MDWtI074965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 2 Jul 2008 00:13:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from cicely7.cicely.de (cicely7.cicely.de [10.1.1.9]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m61MDOXl009598 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 2 Jul 2008 00:13:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from cicely7.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely7.cicely.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m61MDOXS029023; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 00:13:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely7.cicely.de (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m61MDN9N029022; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 00:13:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 00:13:23 +0200 From: Bernd Walter To: Bakul Shah Message-ID: <20080701221323.GE17364@cicely7.cicely.de> References: <20080701200254.GB17364@cicely7.cicely.de> <20080701213006.37D675B4B@mail.bitblocks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080701213006.37D675B4B@mail.bitblocks.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely7.cicely.de 7.0-STABLE i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on spamd.cicely.de Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , ticso@cicely.de Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:13:38 -0000 On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 02:30:06PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: > On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:02:54 +0200 Bernd Walter wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 10:59:31AM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: > > > To bring this back on topic, perhaps John Kobuzik can just > > > use the zfs since it already has quota support? For example, > > > > > > # zfs create z/foo > > > # zfs quota=10M z/foo > > > dd < /dev/zero bs=1M count=20 > /z/foo/xx > > > dd: stdout: Disc quota exceeded > > > 11+0 records in > > > 10+0 records out > > > 10485760 bytes transferred in 4.718700 secs (2222171 bytes/sec) > > > # zfs set quota=10T z/foo > > > # zfs get quota z/foo > > > NAME PROPERTY VALUE SOURCE > > > z/foo quota 10T local > > > > This is basicly what the partition size is for normal filesystems, > > with the great ability of course to change it cheaply at any time. > > But this is in no way a per user quota in the way ufs does. > > It is not the same but can serve a similer purpose if each > user gets his own filesystem (and yes, I am aware of the > rebooting issue with zfs with thousands of filesystems). He > wanted support for 2TB+ quota on ufs by July 20. If that > doesn't happen at least he can limp along with this. This works for home, but not for /tmp, where you may need support for user quota as well. -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de Modbus/TCP Ethernet I/O Baugruppen, ARM basierte FreeBSD Rechner uvm. From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 2 00:42:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD784106566C for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 00:42:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from morganw@chemikals.org) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 673808FC1A for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 00:42:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from morganw@chemikals.org) Received: from shop.chemikals.org ([75.182.12.58]) by cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20080702002553.ONWS27427.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@shop.chemikals.org>; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 00:25:53 +0000 Received: from volatile.chemikals.org (root@r74-193-170-223.bssrcmta01.bscyla.by.dh.suddenlink.net [74.193.170.223] (may be forged)) by shop.chemikals.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m620Ppc3080162; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 20:25:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from morganw@chemikals.org) Received: from localhost (morganw@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by volatile.chemikals.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m620Pn9V002471; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 19:25:50 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from morganw@chemikals.org) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 19:25:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Wes Morgan To: Bakul Shah In-Reply-To: <20080701213006.37D675B4B@mail.bitblocks.com> Message-ID: References: <20080701213006.37D675B4B@mail.bitblocks.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (BSF 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, ticso@cicely.de Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:42:52 -0000 On Tue, 1 Jul 2008, Bakul Shah wrote: > On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:02:54 +0200 Bernd Walter wrote: >> On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 10:59:31AM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: >>> To bring this back on topic, perhaps John Kobuzik can just >>> use the zfs since it already has quota support? For example, >>> >>> # zfs create z/foo >>> # zfs quota=10M z/foo >>> dd < /dev/zero bs=1M count=20 > /z/foo/xx >>> dd: stdout: Disc quota exceeded >>> 11+0 records in >>> 10+0 records out >>> 10485760 bytes transferred in 4.718700 secs (2222171 bytes/sec) >>> # zfs set quota=10T z/foo >>> # zfs get quota z/foo >>> NAME PROPERTY VALUE SOURCE >>> z/foo quota 10T local >> >> This is basicly what the partition size is for normal filesystems, >> with the great ability of course to change it cheaply at any time. >> But this is in no way a per user quota in the way ufs does. > > It is not the same but can serve a similer purpose if each > user gets his own filesystem (and yes, I am aware of the > rebooting issue with zfs with thousands of filesystems). He > wanted support for 2TB+ quota on ufs by July 20. If that > doesn't happen at least he can limp along with this. On a totally spurrious note, I'd love to know the storage environment where a 1 TB quota on a multi-user system is meaningful. If I truly need that much space as a user, and I hit your quota limit, I'll probably be a very, very unhappy user! From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 2 14:59:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54056106564A for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:59:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@lor.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from lor.one-eyed-alien.net (cl-162.ewr-01.us.sixxs.net [IPv6:2001:4830:1200:a1::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B636C8FC1B for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:59:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@lor.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from lor.one-eyed-alien.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lor.one-eyed-alien.net (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m62ExVZa042877; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:59:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from brooks@lor.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: (from brooks@localhost) by lor.one-eyed-alien.net (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m62ExTCD042876; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:59:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from brooks) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:59:29 -0500 From: Brooks Davis To: Wes Morgan Message-ID: <20080702145929.GA33529@lor.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <20080701213006.37D675B4B@mail.bitblocks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (lor.one-eyed-alien.net [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 02 Jul 2008 09:59:31 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, ticso@cicely.de Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:59:11 -0000 --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 07:25:49PM -0500, Wes Morgan wrote: > On Tue, 1 Jul 2008, Bakul Shah wrote: >=20 >> On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:02:54 +0200 Bernd Walter wrote: >>> On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 10:59:31AM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: >>>> To bring this back on topic, perhaps John Kobuzik can just >>>> use the zfs since it already has quota support? For example, >>>>=20 >>>> # zfs create z/foo >>>> # zfs quota=3D10M z/foo >>>> dd < /dev/zero bs=3D1M count=3D20 > /z/foo/xx >>>> dd: stdout: Disc quota exceeded >>>> 11+0 records in >>>> 10+0 records out >>>> 10485760 bytes transferred in 4.718700 secs (2222171 bytes/sec) >>>> # zfs set quota=3D10T z/foo >>>> # zfs get quota z/foo >>>> NAME PROPERTY VALUE SOURCE >>>> z/foo quota 10T local >>>=20 >>> This is basicly what the partition size is for normal filesystems, >>> with the great ability of course to change it cheaply at any time. >>> But this is in no way a per user quota in the way ufs does. >>=20 >> It is not the same but can serve a similer purpose if each >> user gets his own filesystem (and yes, I am aware of the >> rebooting issue with zfs with thousands of filesystems). He >> wanted support for 2TB+ quota on ufs by July 20. If that >> doesn't happen at least he can limp along with this. >=20 > On a totally spurrious note, I'd love to know the storage environment whe= re=20 > a 1 TB quota on a multi-user system is meaningful. If I truly need that= =20 > much space as a user, and I hit your quota limit, I'll probably be a > very, very unhappy user! That's probably about where we'll set the default quotas (probably more like 5-10TB) on a new system we're deploying at work. It's more that most users will need, but will ensure that a few users can't run us out of space (40TB available). -- Brooks --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFIa5fQXY6L6fI4GtQRAlz/AJ9oi/fsbXt+FyPc/1w1bYBkt9MejACcDinq 0iNnZRdKuzZ0JkAI5V5qI28= =VMjq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG-- From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 2 22:56:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0609106564A; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 22:56:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8D98FC0A; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 22:56:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D90A46B88; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 18:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 23:56:21 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Andrew Reilly In-Reply-To: <20080701035755.GA23685@duncan.reilly.home> Message-ID: <20080702235138.W47773@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080628132632.R1807@kozubik.com> <864p7bw387.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080630073539.U1807@kozubik.com> <4868FB2F.7010204@FreeBSD.org> <20080630085612.G1807@kozubik.com> <20080701035755.GA23685@duncan.reilly.home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: It's 2008. 1 TB disk drives cost $160. Quotas are 32-bit. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:56:22 -0000 On Tue, 1 Jul 2008, Andrew Reilly wrote: > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 09:05:48AM -0700, John Kozubik wrote: >> That point is well taken. However, regardless of the adoption rate, I _do_ >> believe that there is still a qualitative difference between quotas and, >> for instance, ZFS - in terms of "coreness". > > One qualitative difference is that lots of people seem to be interested in > ZFS. I haven't seen any mention of quotas for many years. In fact, I was > under a vague impression that they hadn't worked since UFS2, and that that > was still the case because no-one cared. You may be thinking of the lag in support for MPSAFE UFS with quotas, which I think we didn't ship until 7.0 (and will also appear in the forthcoming 6.4). Prior to that, UFS was forced to run with the Giant lock if quotas were enabled in the kernel. Other than the recently reported 64-bit quota problem, I believe they have worked fine since UFS2 was introduced. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 4 20:36:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83FFA106567D for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 20:36:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@icyb.net.ua) Received: from hosted.kievnet.com (hosted.kievnet.com [193.138.144.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CA0A8FC14 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 20:36:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@icyb.net.ua) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=edge.pp.kiev.ua) by hosted.kievnet.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1KEs1W-0000Mz-A0; Fri, 04 Jul 2008 23:36:54 +0300 Message-ID: <486E89E0.8010301@icyb.net.ua> Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 23:36:48 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080615) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <889.1203600472@critter.freebsd.dk> <47CC55B0.4020607@icyb.net.ua> In-Reply-To: <47CC55B0.4020607@icyb.net.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-U; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: newfs_msdos and dvd-ram (fwsectors, fwheads) X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 20:36:56 -0000 on 03/03/2008 21:46 Andriy Gapon said the following: > on 21/02/2008 15:27 Poul-Henning Kamp said the following: >> In message <47BD6F39.7080105@icyb.net.ua>, Andriy Gapon writes: >>> 2) fake those properties in newfs_msdof; >>> benefit: this would help with other physical devices that can host >>> FAT; >> This is the way to do it, but it might make sense to make a library >> routine do it, to get consistent behaviour. BTW, the same issue applies to md device too. I.e. if you would like to create a FAT image in a file, newfs_msdos won't let you. > I opened a PR for this approach in a simple form. > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=bin/121182 > > What could be a good place to put thing for re-use/sharing? libutil? -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 4 21:26:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA80106567A for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:26:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from smtpoutm.mac.com (smtpoutm.mac.com [17.148.16.76]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A31968FC0C for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:26:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from asmtp019-bge351000.mac.com (asmtp019-bge351000 [10.150.69.82]) by smtpoutm.mac.com (Xserve/smtpout013/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id m64L6QMG015964; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 14:06:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Received: from [192.168.1.102] (209-128-86-226.BAYAREA.NET [209.128.86.226]) by asmtp019.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-6.03 (built Mar 14 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPSA id <0K3I00D7N2MPQ070@asmtp019.mac.com>; Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <80837A4B-A49A-44A4-AFBA-819DD1ED9DD4@mac.com> From: Marcel Moolenaar To: Andriy Gapon In-reply-to: <486E89E0.8010301@icyb.net.ua> Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:06:25 -0700 References: <889.1203600472@critter.freebsd.dk> <47CC55B0.4020607@icyb.net.ua> <486E89E0.8010301@icyb.net.ua> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.926) Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: newfs_msdos and dvd-ram (fwsectors, fwheads) X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:26:10 -0000 On Jul 4, 2008, at 1:36 PM, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 03/03/2008 21:46 Andriy Gapon said the following: >> on 21/02/2008 15:27 Poul-Henning Kamp said the following: >>> In message <47BD6F39.7080105@icyb.net.ua>, Andriy Gapon writes: >>>> 2) fake those properties in newfs_msdof; >>>> benefit: this would help with other physical devices that can host >>>> FAT; >>> This is the way to do it, but it might make sense to make a library >>> routine do it, to get consistent behaviour. > > BTW, the same issue applies to md device too. > I.e. if you would like to create a FAT image in a file, newfs_msdos > won't let you. > >> I opened a PR for this approach in a simple form. >> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=bin/121182 >> What could be a good place to put thing for re-use/sharing? libutil? Note that this problem is already solved with GPart. As long as you have some partitioning scheme on the media, GPart will synthesize CHS parameters. FYI, -- Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 5 09:27:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31B7E1065690 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 2008 09:27:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaluna@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.234]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F16D78FC14 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 2008 09:27:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kaluna@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so1991456rvf.43 for ; Sat, 05 Jul 2008 02:27:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=E9kCACAdiI5LgL1gvOYEuwT8hBW6C0K9jEPwaldrtvk=; b=qSuPisR/NT4wLAA0/jCtGzi7ymPUUpVyQliKVCuqecWxX4LsdgGzSTK68bAT4Yrbvf I0X/3btgMnpSOVoo7oUsXK9HzieLzoIQunz4pdC+cpmGwMw+Qjnn1bw7hj+uagg0ozqG 2VPIdoA6IH2Um53vQBtdAfsZtyA/ZSHuX/Y+g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=Pc6LDORevmCHgEF6ZIVogNjtRMzgTDAo3UjLc10iCg1+DI3tq9tTmUhpNFKF32Fs3P 7JQHdjKmU62Hf3j2DKP2PAYdgT52d21fHZCYzl3u/ded3J2m/RUDOhaxYIcc+i/rpxYN oeM9OYYGyrozIpP5ELfw42GrnYPugFpzHtqeg= Received: by 10.115.110.6 with SMTP id n6mr4293979wam.34.1215248314126; Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.80.10 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Jul 2008 01:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <11c17ec30807050158t24c88491pe4407e01f6687d72@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 10:58:33 +0200 From: "Carlos Luna" To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Filesystem is not clean - run fsck X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 09:27:13 -0000 Hi I'd used freenas about 5 years without any problem. Now I can=B4t mount = my raid volume and in his sourceforge forums seems they cant help me. Hope thi= s list is the right list for my issue. When I try to fsck,I get: casa:/dev# fsck -t ufs -y /dev/pst0s1 ** /dev/pst0s1 ** Last Mounted on /mnt/raid ** Phase 1 - Check Blocks and Sizes -4439300862985009506 BAD I=3D86 3443570138036206556 BAD I=3D86 -7476842757969057647 BAD I=3D86 -8078484667502176485 BAD I=3D86 2249916482063805839 BAD I=3D86 -3291681609520367063 BAD I=3D86 7780434385339928353 BAD I=3D86 -4372486048108189431 BAD I=3D86 8774078035736727371 BAD I=3D86 -2035310265760485777 BAD I=3D86 6848295312539782814 BAD I=3D86 EXCESSIVE BAD BLKS I=3D86 CONTINUE? yes ... .... UNKNOWN FILE TYPE I=3D7254140 CLEAR? yes UNKNOWN FILE TYPE I=3D7254141 CLEAR? yes UNKNOWN FILE TYPE I=3D7254142 CLEAR? yes UNKNOWN FILE TYPE I=3D7254143 CLEAR? yes fsck_ufs: cannot alloc 3037795832 bytes for inoinfo I have a lot of info there, 1 TB. I will appreciate any help. Regards Mike