From owner-freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 21 07:57:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0BA91065671; Sun, 21 Sep 2008 07:57:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from remko@FreeBSD.org) Received: from websrv01.jr-hosting.nl (websrv01.jr-hosting.nl [78.47.69.233]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95CAB8FC13; Sun, 21 Sep 2008 07:57:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from remko@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [195.64.94.120] (helo=axantucar.local) by websrv01.jr-hosting.nl with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1KhJCW-000CHy-Vb; Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:17:49 +0200 Message-ID: <48D5F518.4040904@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:17:44 +0200 From: Remko Lodder User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Macintosh/20080707) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Volker References: <48D51FAF.70603@vwsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <48D51FAF.70603@vwsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Carlos A. M. dos Santos" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Benjie Chen , "freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Interrupts issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of FreeBSD hardware List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 07:57:46 -0000 Volker wrote: > On 12/23/-58 20:59, Carlos A. M. dos Santos wrote: >> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Benjie Chen wrote: >>> Hi FreeBSD hackers: >>> >>> I have two Dell workstations that I recently added FreeBSD 6.2 on. One >>> is a Precision T3400, one is an Inspiron 530. Nothing fancy. Installed >>> FBsd. Everything else is fine except both machines have interrupt >>> storm issues: one core (both dual core) is 100% servicing interrupts. >>> On the Precision, it's irq20 atapci, on Inspiron it's irq19 uhci. The >>> other core is fine and both machines run well otherwise. >>> >>> I saw several recent posts on the net about some of these issues and >>> did not find a resolution. It seems unlikely that it's just a ata or >>> usb issue since both machines happen to have the same problem. >>> >>> Any thoughts? >> Please provide the output of "dmesg" after a boot in verbose mode. >> This may help the maintainers to understand your problem and give you >> additional instructions. >> >> Do you have any special reason to use FreeBSD 6.2? It is a rather old >> version, ... > > 6.2 has already been EOL'd in May. > _______________________________________________ I need to join the club, my machine starts doing interrupt storms after an uptime of ${random} on the IRQ19 (atapci0) thingy. Next time I'll boot the machine I'll try to make it a verbose boot. It's a production machine which cannot restart on demand ofcourse :) Note: First the problems occured much more, this was because the usb interfaces on the machine co-existed with the atapci0 interface, after disabling usb on the system, it took a lot longer to trigger the interrupt storm (50 days if I recall correctly). Cheers remko Regular dmesg: Copyright (c) 1992-2008 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation. FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #7: Thu Sep 18 09:53:16 CEST 2008 root@xxxxx.elvandar.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/xxxxx Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 5600+ (2799.99-MHz K8-class CPU) Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x40f33 Stepping = 3 Features=0x178bfbff Features2=0x2001 AMD Features=0xea500800 AMD Features2=0x1f Cores per package: 2 usable memory = 2103840768 (2006 MB) avail memory = 2028867584 (1934 MB) ACPI APIC Table: FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 2 CPUs cpu0 (BSP): APIC ID: 0 cpu1 (AP): APIC ID: 1 This module (opensolaris) contains code covered by the Common Development and Distribution License (CDDL) see http://opensolaris.org/os/licensing/opensolaris_license/ ioapic0 irqs 0-23 on motherboard kbd1 at kbdmux0 acpi0: on motherboard acpi0: [ITHREAD] acpi0: Power Button (fixed) acpi0: reservation of 0, a0000 (3) failed acpi0: reservation of 100000, 7df00000 (3) failed Timecounter "ACPI-safe" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 850 acpi_timer0: <32-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x808-0x80b on acpi0 pcib0: port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0 pci0: on pcib0 pcib1: at device 1.0 on pci0 pci1: on pcib1 vgapci0: port 0xc000-0xc0ff mem 0xfc000000-0xfdffffff,0xfe9f0000-0xfe9fffff,0xfe800000-0xfe8fffff irq 18 at device 5.0 on pci1 pci1: at device 5.2 (no driver attached) pcib2: at device 7.0 on pci0 pci2: on pcib2 re0: port 0xd800-0xd8ff mem 0xfeaff000-0xfeafffff irq 19 at device 0.0 on pci2 re0: turning off MSI enable bit. re0: Chip rev. 0x38000000 re0: MAC rev. 0x00000000 miibus0: on re0 rgephy0: PHY 1 on miibus0 rgephy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 1000baseT, 1000baseT-FDX, auto re0: Ethernet address: 00:1d:92:b1:a3:2f re0: [FILTER] atapci0: port 0xb000-0xb007,0xa000-0xa003,0x9000-0x9007,0x8000-0x8003,0x7000-0x700f mem 0xfe7ff800-0xfe7ffbff irq 22 at device 18.0 on pci0 atapci0: [ITHREAD] atapci0: AHCI Version 01.10 controller with 4 ports detected ata2: on atapci0 ata2: [ITHREAD] ata3: on atapci0 ata3: [ITHREAD] ata4: on atapci0 ata4: [ITHREAD] ata5: on atapci0 ata5: [ITHREAD] pci0: at device 19.0 (no driver attached) pci0: at device 19.1 (no driver attached) pci0: at device 19.2 (no driver attached) pci0: at device 19.3 (no driver attached) pci0: at device 19.4 (no driver attached) pci0: at device 19.5 (no driver attached) pci0: at device 20.0 (no driver attached) atapci1: port 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6,0x170-0x177,0x376,0xff00-0xff0f at device 20.1 on pci0 ata0: on atapci1 ata0: [ITHREAD] isab0: at device 20.3 on pci0 isa0: on isab0 pcib3: at device 20.4 on pci0 pci3: on pcib3 acpi_button0: on acpi0 sio0: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 sio0: port may not be enabled sio0: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 sio0: port may not be enabled sio0: <16550A-compatible COM port> port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 flags 0x10 on acpi0 sio0: type 16550A sio0: [FILTER] atkbdc0: port 0x60,0x64 irq 1 on acpi0 atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0 kbd0 at atkbd0 atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] atkbd0: [ITHREAD] cpu0: on acpi0 acpi_throttle0: on cpu0 acpi_throttle0: CLK_VAL field overlaps THT_EN bit device_attach: acpi_throttle0 attach returned 6 powernow0: on cpu0 cpu1: on acpi0 powernow1: on cpu1 orm0: at iomem 0xcd800-0xce7ff on isa0 sc0: at flags 0x100 on isa0 sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 WARNING: ZFS is considered to be an experimental feature in FreeBSD. Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec ZFS filesystem version 6 ZFS storage pool version 6 ad4: 381554MB at ata2-master SATA300 ad6: 381554MB at ata3-master SATA300 SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched! Trying to mount root from zfs:tank/root -- /"\ Best regards, | remko@FreeBSD.org \ / Remko Lodder | remko@EFnet X http://www.evilcoder.org/ | / \ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Against HTML Mail and News From owner-freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 25 13:08:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A22F1065686 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:08:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 048938FC0C for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:08:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de ([10.1.1.7]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m8PCsNaA027385 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:54:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from cicely7.cicely.de (cicely7.cicely.de [10.1.1.9]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m8PCsJlK031190 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:54:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from cicely7.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely7.cicely.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m8PCsJPC060059; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:54:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely7.cicely.de (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m8PCsH3Q060058; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:54:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:54:17 +0200 From: Bernd Walter To: Dieter Message-ID: <20080925125417.GQ93308@cicely7.cicely.de> References: <20080920125414.GS93308@cicely7.cicely.de> <200809201655.QAA10313@sopwith.solgatos.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200809201655.QAA10313@sopwith.solgatos.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely7.cicely.de 7.0-STABLE i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on spamd.cicely.de Cc: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: alpha/127248: System crashes when many (7) serial port terminals (vt320-vt510) connected to the server via com to usb adapter and 2-usb hubs. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: General discussion of FreeBSD hardware List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:08:05 -0000 On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 09:55:59AM +0100, Dieter wrote: > [ -hardware@ list added to existing -alpha@ thread as this > doesn't seem to be alpha specific ] > > > This is because USB is absolutely crap for this purpose. > > RS232 terminals, especially with long cables, can produce several kind > > of spikes and ground loops, which USB is very very sensitive about. > > Many things about USB are crap (thanks, inthell), but if a USB to RS-232 > bridge cannot handle normal spikes and ground loops, I'd blame the > bridge, not USB itself. If the problem is spikes and ground loops > there is probably some RS-232 filter/isolator available to clean them > up. There could be a bug in the bridge which needs a software workaround. > In any case the system shouldn't crash. > > Are there specific make&model USB to RS-232 bridges that people > have had good luck with? USB can't handle spikes and ground loops. As said: use isolated devices, so you don't have the loops and spikes. You can blame the device for not being isolated, but you expect every device to provide expensive workaround for a design failure. USB is designed for cheap stuff - that's all about it. Yes - the system shouldn't crash, but don't expect it ever being fixed for FreeBSD-alpha. > > My advise is to use a completely other technology to connect the terminals. > > A galvanic isolated USB device might work, but there are lot of PCI and > > Ethernet devices on the market which are more solid by design than USB. > > The problem with PCI is the limited number of slots. :-( Well - not realy with server class alphas... > Ethernet could be a good solution for some applications, if you > can get the software to deal with it. NFS is crap, *real* distributed > file systems handled devices transparently. (thanks, Sun) This is a different topic. For RS232 Ethernet is quite reasonable. > Does anyone make firewire to RS-232 bridges? Or stay with the old DEC devices - they are rock solid even after all those years. -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de Modbus/TCP Ethernet I/O Baugruppen, ARM basierte FreeBSD Rechner uvm. From owner-freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 25 13:16:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19BCD1065687; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:16:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.35]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 886EF8FC30; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:16:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [82.95.250.254]) by smtp-vbr15.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m8PCx3wH032251; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:59:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m8PCwxUf063299; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:58:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m8PCws60063298; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:58:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wb) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:58:54 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: ticso@cicely.de Message-ID: <20080925125852.GK59387@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <20080920125414.GS93308@cicely7.cicely.de> <200809201655.QAA10313@sopwith.solgatos.com> <20080925125417.GQ93308@cicely7.cicely.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080925125417.GQ93308@cicely7.cicely.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Cc: Dieter , freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: alpha/127248: System crashes when many (7) serial port terminals (vt320-vt510) connected to the server via com to usb adapter and 2-usb hubs. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of FreeBSD hardware List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:16:51 -0000 Quoting Bernd Walter, who wrote on Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 02:54:17PM +0200 .. > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 09:55:59AM +0100, Dieter wrote: > > [ -hardware@ list added to existing -alpha@ thread as this > > doesn't seem to be alpha specific ] > > > > > This is because USB is absolutely crap for this purpose. > > > RS232 terminals, especially with long cables, can produce several kind > > > of spikes and ground loops, which USB is very very sensitive about. > > > > Many things about USB are crap (thanks, inthell), but if a USB to RS-232 > > bridge cannot handle normal spikes and ground loops, I'd blame the > > bridge, not USB itself. If the problem is spikes and ground loops > > there is probably some RS-232 filter/isolator available to clean them > > up. There could be a bug in the bridge which needs a software workaround. > > In any case the system shouldn't crash. > > > > Are there specific make&model USB to RS-232 bridges that people > > have had good luck with? > > USB can't handle spikes and ground loops. > As said: use isolated devices, so you don't have the loops and spikes. > You can blame the device for not being isolated, but you expect every > device to provide expensive workaround for a design failure. > USB is designed for cheap stuff - that's all about it. 20mA current loop comes to mind > > > A galvanic isolated USB device might work, but there are lot of PCI and > > > Ethernet devices on the market which are more solid by design than USB. > > > > The problem with PCI is the limited number of slots. :-( > > Well - not realy with server class alphas... Yeah... a Turbolaser running a terminal server 8-) > > Does anyone make firewire to RS-232 bridges? > > Or stay with the old DEC devices - they are rock solid even after all > those years. DECserver900 are indeed rock solid. Run reverse-telnet driven bij conserver on FreeBSD. Works like a charm. I still have a considerable # of lines like that running in an engineering lab. conserver runs on Tru64 in that particular case. Wilko From owner-freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 25 17:11:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 689781065695; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:11:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@sopwith.solgatos.com) Received: from parsely.rain.com (parsely.rain.com [199.26.172.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7A28FC15; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:11:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@sopwith.solgatos.com) Received: from sopwith.solgatos.com (uucp@localhost) by parsely.rain.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with UUCP id m8PHAxK62467; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@sopwith.solgatos.com) Received: from localhost by sopwith.solgatos.com (8.8.8/6.24) id RAA18993; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:01:51 GMT Message-Id: <200809251701.RAA18993@sopwith.solgatos.com> To: freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org, freebsd-usb@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:54:17 +0200." <20080925125417.GQ93308@cicely7.cicely.de> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:01:51 +0100 From: Dieter Cc: Subject: Re: alpha/127248: System crashes when many (7) serial port terminals (vt320-vt510) connected to the server via com to usb adapter and 2-usb hubs. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of FreeBSD hardware List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:11:08 -0000 [ -usb@ added to existing thread ] > > > This is because USB is absolutely crap for this purpose. > > > RS232 terminals, especially with long cables, can produce several kind > > > of spikes and ground loops, which USB is very very sensitive about. > > > > Many things about USB are crap (thanks, inthell), but if a USB to RS-232 > > bridge cannot handle normal spikes and ground loops, I'd blame the > > bridge, not USB itself. If the problem is spikes and ground loops > > there is probably some RS-232 filter/isolator available to clean them > > up. There could be a bug in the bridge which needs a software workaround. > > In any case the system shouldn't crash. > > > > Are there specific make&model USB to RS-232 bridges that people > > have had good luck with? > > USB can't handle spikes and ground loops. > As said: use isolated devices, so you don't have the loops and spikes. > You can blame the device for not being isolated, but you expect every > device to provide expensive workaround for a design failure. > USB is designed for cheap stuff - that's all about it. Surely a "good" USB to RS-232 bridge (if one exists?) or a RS-232 filter/isolator (assuming they exist?) would be *far* less expensive than the server class alpha you suggest below. And IIRC it is just speculation that the original poster's problem is caused by spikes or ground loops. > Yes - the system shouldn't crash, but don't expect it ever being fixed > for FreeBSD-alpha. There is a 6.4 coming out, yes? It is unlikely that the problem is alpha specific. If an alpha crashes, other archs will likely crash. > > > My advise is to use a completely other technology to connect the terminals. > > > A galvanic isolated USB device might work, but there are lot of PCI and > > > Ethernet devices on the market which are more solid by design than USB. > > > > The problem with PCI is the limited number of slots. :-( > > Well - not realy with server class alphas... In my world, a "server" means 1-4 full height 19" racks with quite large price tags and power&cooling requirements. Some people think a server is a pee-cee. So I'm not sure what you mean by "server class alphas". I have what I would call a "workstation" class alpha, which cost an obscene amount to get 6 PCI slots instead of 4, and at times they are all full. So I can't use up a slot just to get a couple more RS-232 ports. How many PCI slots does a server class alpha have? RS-232 doesn't require PCI levels of bandwidth. Something like a USB to RS-232 bridge could be a good solution, if I knew which make&model of bridge worked well with *BSD. Poking around on the web I can't even find what chip they have inside. Do these bridges actually work properly, or do they have gotchas like the USB to SATA/PATA bridges? > > Ethernet could be a good solution for some applications, if you > > can get the software to deal with it. NFS is crap, *real* distributed > > file systems handled devices transparently. (thanks, Sun) > > This is a different topic. > For RS232 Ethernet is quite reasonable. For some applications yes. But some apps want to open /dev/ttyXX and do ioctls on it. How does one use such an app on Free/Net/OpenBSD with the RS-232 device on some Ethernet connected RS-232 port? > > Does anyone make firewire to RS-232 bridges? > > Or stay with the old DEC devices - they are rock solid even after all > those years. It is not obvious what "old DEC devices" you are referring to. From owner-freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 25 17:38:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EB6E1065688 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:38:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@koitsu.dyndns.org) Received: from QMTA02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.24]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504C18FC1B for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:38:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@koitsu.dyndns.org) Received: from OMTA02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.19]) by QMTA02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id K3GV1a0010QkzPwA25egfr; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:38:41 +0000 Received: from koitsu.dyndns.org ([67.180.253.227]) by OMTA02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id K5ed1a00C4v8bD78N5edU1; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:38:38 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=XTcIjhJ2o1MA:10 a=wJoO8qgNyacA:10 a=QycZ5dHgAAAA:8 a=n2mVluqdqtx0iPfJs8MA:9 a=cwbzKhUv-0Nns03EDYZIBqHzAUMA:4 a=EoioJ0NPDVgA:10 a=LY0hPdMaydYA:10 Received: by icarus.home.lan (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 57BDCC9432; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:38:37 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: Dieter Message-ID: <20080925173837.GA3415@icarus.home.lan> References: <20080925125417.GQ93308@cicely7.cicely.de> <200809251701.RAA18993@sopwith.solgatos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200809251701.RAA18993@sopwith.solgatos.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: freebsd-usb@freebsd.org, freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: alpha/127248: System crashes when many (7) serial port terminals (vt320-vt510) connected to the server via com to usb adapter and 2-usb hubs. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of FreeBSD hardware List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:38:41 -0000 On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 10:01:51AM +0100, Dieter wrote: > [ -usb@ added to existing thread ] > > > > > This is because USB is absolutely crap for this purpose. > > > > RS232 terminals, especially with long cables, can produce several kind > > > > of spikes and ground loops, which USB is very very sensitive about. > > > > > > Many things about USB are crap (thanks, inthell), but if a USB to RS-232 > > > bridge cannot handle normal spikes and ground loops, I'd blame the > > > bridge, not USB itself. If the problem is spikes and ground loops > > > there is probably some RS-232 filter/isolator available to clean them > > > up. There could be a bug in the bridge which needs a software workaround. > > > In any case the system shouldn't crash. > > > > > > Are there specific make&model USB to RS-232 bridges that people > > > have had good luck with? > > > > USB can't handle spikes and ground loops. > > As said: use isolated devices, so you don't have the loops and spikes. > > You can blame the device for not being isolated, but you expect every > > device to provide expensive workaround for a design failure. > > USB is designed for cheap stuff - that's all about it. > > Surely a "good" USB to RS-232 bridge (if one exists?) or a RS-232 > filter/isolator (assuming they exist?) would be *far* less expensive > than the server class alpha you suggest below. I'm coming into this conversation late, so my apologies. If by "bridge" you mean a USB adapter that supports RS232 serial, then yes, there are some which work quite nicely with FreeBSD. Anything that uses a Prolific chip will work well (supports custom serial rates, and does not drop/lose characters). The uplcom(4) driver is for this chip, and the man page lists off some consumer models/devices available. I can refer you to numerous people who have spoken to me privately or publicly on lists, praising the Prolific stuff. I have no idea if this driver works on Alphas. -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | From owner-freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 25 19:00:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64024106569C; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 19:00:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADE778FC20; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 19:00:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de ([10.1.1.7]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m8PJ0T6s047827 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:00:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from cicely7.cicely.de (cicely7.cicely.de [10.1.1.9]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m8PJ0O8n041992 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:00:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from cicely7.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely7.cicely.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m8PJ0Op6060913; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:00:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely7.cicely.de (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m8PJ0NW9060912; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:00:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:00:22 +0200 From: Bernd Walter To: Dieter Message-ID: <20080925190022.GB93308@cicely7.cicely.de> References: <20080925125417.GQ93308@cicely7.cicely.de> <200809251701.RAA18993@sopwith.solgatos.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200809251701.RAA18993@sopwith.solgatos.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely7.cicely.de 7.0-STABLE i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on spamd.cicely.de Cc: freebsd-usb@freebsd.org, freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: alpha/127248: System crashes when many (7) serial port terminals (vt320-vt510) connected to the server via com to usb adapter and 2-usb hubs. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: General discussion of FreeBSD hardware List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 19:00:33 -0000 On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 10:01:51AM +0100, Dieter wrote: > [ -usb@ added to existing thread ] > > > > > This is because USB is absolutely crap for this purpose. > > > > RS232 terminals, especially with long cables, can produce several kind > > > > of spikes and ground loops, which USB is very very sensitive about. > > > > > > Many things about USB are crap (thanks, inthell), but if a USB to RS-232 > > > bridge cannot handle normal spikes and ground loops, I'd blame the > > > bridge, not USB itself. If the problem is spikes and ground loops > > > there is probably some RS-232 filter/isolator available to clean them > > > up. There could be a bug in the bridge which needs a software workaround. > > > In any case the system shouldn't crash. > > > > > > Are there specific make&model USB to RS-232 bridges that people > > > have had good luck with? > > > > USB can't handle spikes and ground loops. > > As said: use isolated devices, so you don't have the loops and spikes. > > You can blame the device for not being isolated, but you expect every > > device to provide expensive workaround for a design failure. > > USB is designed for cheap stuff - that's all about it. > > Surely a "good" USB to RS-232 bridge (if one exists?) or a RS-232 > filter/isolator (assuming they exist?) would be *far* less expensive > than the server class alpha you suggest below. It depend on how much RS232 you need and how many slots the OP has free. Nevertheless a "good" RS232 bridge if needed in number are not cheap either - ntoe that you can get affordable PCI extenders as well. > And IIRC it is just speculation that the original poster's problem is > caused by spikes or ground loops. No it is not speculation - I know USB very well and the device disconnected, which is very typical for electrical problems caused by ground loops. > > Yes - the system shouldn't crash, but don't expect it ever being fixed > > for FreeBSD-alpha. > > There is a 6.4 coming out, yes? It is unlikely that the problem is alpha specific. > If an alpha crashes, other archs will likely crash. This is a design problem with our USB stack, which is likely to be handled by the HPS stack which is going into current. The problems are way too old that there is a real chance that anyone will ever fix it in the old stack and the new one will not be backported to 6.x, since the changes for a stable branch are too invasive. > > > > My advise is to use a completely other technology to connect the terminals. > > > > A galvanic isolated USB device might work, but there are lot of PCI and > > > > Ethernet devices on the market which are more solid by design than USB. > > > > > > The problem with PCI is the limited number of slots. :-( > > > > Well - not realy with server class alphas... > > In my world, a "server" means 1-4 full height 19" racks with quite large > price tags and power&cooling requirements. Some people think a server > is a pee-cee. So I'm not sure what you mean by "server class alphas". Server doesn't mean rack, but beside from a few OEM boards and small 19" system all alphas have lots of free slots available. > I have what I would call a "workstation" class alpha, which cost an > obscene amount to get 6 PCI slots instead of 4, and at times they are > all full. So I can't use up a slot just to get a couple more RS-232 > ports. How many PCI slots does a server class alpha have? Well the AS4100 I have already has 8 slots which is not that uncommon for alpha servers. The real big ones can even have a few hundred slots. > RS-232 doesn't require PCI levels of bandwidth. Something like a It doesn't need high bandwidth, but it doesn't hurt either. For terminals it needs the ability to accept ground loops. For other purposes it needs low latency - USB has a latency of 1-2ms, which is a few thousand times higher than ISA. You can get better results with any kind of cheap ISA RS232 card. > USB to RS-232 bridge could be a good solution, if I knew which > make&model of bridge worked well with *BSD. Poking around on the web > I can't even find what chip they have inside. Really forget about USB to RS232. It is not the chip which is the problem it is the principal. You really need galvanic isolation, because USB can't handle ground loops, which no cheap device has. You can use any kind of chip with propper isolation, but then it is likely more expensive than any other kind of solution. > Do these bridges actually work properly, or do they have gotchas > like the USB to SATA/PATA bridges? The prolific bridges work well enough if you don't have a ground loop and FTDI chips are better IMHO. > > > Ethernet could be a good solution for some applications, if you > > > can get the software to deal with it. NFS is crap, *real* distributed > > > file systems handled devices transparently. (thanks, Sun) > > > > This is a different topic. > > For RS232 Ethernet is quite reasonable. > > For some applications yes. But some apps want to open /dev/ttyXX > and do ioctls on it. How does one use such an app on Free/Net/OpenBSD > with the RS-232 device on some Ethernet connected RS-232 port? It depend on the way you use it. In most cases you just use raw connection and configure it out of band. In some cases you use telnet encapsulation to allow break handling. But you are free to use other protocoll. Anyway: this doesn't apply to terminal use, since you don't need to change the communication parameters after initial setup. > > > Does anyone make firewire to RS-232 bridges? > > > > Or stay with the old DEC devices - they are rock solid even after all > > those years. > > It is not obvious what "old DEC devices" you are referring to. Reread the original post - it was about replacing a solid DEC ethernet terminal concentrator with a bunch of crappy USB-RS232 adapters. -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de Modbus/TCP Ethernet I/O Baugruppen, ARM basierte FreeBSD Rechner uvm. From owner-freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 27 23:32:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE1D1065693 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 23:32:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chris@evilpuma.com) Received: from hs-out-0708.google.com (hs-out-0708.google.com [64.233.178.243]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FCAA8FC19 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 23:32:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chris@evilpuma.com) Received: by hs-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id 54so279717hsz.11 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 16:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.226.6 with SMTP id y6mr2792663ang.130.1222556598973; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 16:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.139.4 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Sep 2008 16:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 16:03:18 -0700 From: "Chris Manns" To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: FBSD 7.0 halts on compaq v2000 laptop X-BeenThere: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of FreeBSD hardware List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 23:32:32 -0000 I got a presario v2000 laptop with this hardware AMD64 turion 2800 unknown motherboard 512mb ddr ATi Xpress 200m chipset ATi Xpress 200m graphics (basically a x300 card) The machine has nothing on it atm, I initially tried PC-BSD which is FreeBSD7 then I tried with FreeBSD 7 AMD64 (PC-BSD is x86 atm) It halted at detecting the firewire ports. I tried without acpi (I think thatswhat it is, whatever you push 2 to disable at the boot loader) It went further to mounting something like md0. I've tried with verbose too, not much errors some stuff about a serial port i believe. Not sure where else to go with this, I've disabled other things like mtrr, I read that a guy got freebsd 6 to work by doing something like that, I couldn't find much info. Once I did that it halted at start_init /stand/sysinstall it did a few start_init's, thats the last one then she halted. I've got no clue why its halting at different areas depending on whats disabled. -- ~Chris Manns