From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 3 05:40:11 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399E81065670 for ; Sun, 3 May 2009 05:40:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from royce.williams@gmail.com) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.31]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71368FC15 for ; Sun, 3 May 2009 05:40:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from royce.williams@gmail.com) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 9so1978306ywe.13 for ; Sat, 02 May 2009 22:40:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=F2/BMGzU/r8Lgg7zVrIFzSMIixgv6ZmOz+dudifFi/A=; b=s5fuJ1YmFyR6GVsvbHEFWAZ1HOZsKyUS2LrodVOyZ/UwW1iWLpel39VMjWO4hjew27 ZIzIYNGY2aia7mtFLMJUrowqQMAsEV4BLkGPOwz7KX6XpuezouJiD7AR3j9re/bKBbYs yePNgL8Vv7tK1odEeWwDNGiVLbQO6onrgPrtQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=VULp6dR1Sm3uhP/+0C+HObGFfoRdKGtGCuaz+xobyaZnfOIYMxgr0GzHCGvxbepPtJ 4MPS36W00h6xhhX8LpGc9ZrEL7kpDggToEwTFv3ypqq6JhcQIMqMjOLLhtBiQKs0VHFM ZyPqBTmTweXglrXSXxL21cPza6vpbTKn6rwE8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.72.6 with SMTP id z6mr9229876ybk.186.1241329210192; Sat, 02 May 2009 22:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 21:40:10 -0800 Message-ID: <9dd082310905022240g12c9e06l1c553eefa024c436@mail.gmail.com> From: Royce Williams To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: FreeBSD participation and BSDCan advice? (was:contributing more) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 05:40:11 -0000 I've just realized that my previous subject line was pretty generic (and even spammish-looking); resending using a better one. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Royce Williams Date: Sat, May 2, 2009 at 11:49 AM Subject: contributing more To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org I am ramping up to participate more in the FreeBSD project, and I could use some advice in two areas: First, I could use some general ramp-up advice. =A0About me: I'm not new to FreeBSD as an admin. =A0I have contributed a few shell patches in the past, and I am somewhat familiar with the PR process. =A0I am dusting off my C from college, and I've otherwise started to fish for myself as much as possible as outlined here: =A0 =A0http://roycebits.blogspot.com/2009/04/contributing-more-to-freebsd.h= tml Any other suggestions will be gratefully accepted. Second, I will be at BSDCan this year - my first BSD conference. =A0I have already asked some of you for first-timer advice, but I could always use more perspectives. =A0Also, since I won't recognize most of you by sight, please take a quick look at the photo on my blog. If you see me, some ice-breaking help would be appreciated. :-) If you are in the same boat -- either looking to ramp up, or new to BSDCan, or both -- I'm looking for buddies. I'll also be looking for like-minded folks at the "Getting Started in FOSS" session. =A0Contact me off-list. I look forward to meeting you! Royce Williams P.S. =A0My potential attendee buddy can't make it, so I now have an apartment-style room to combine with someone. =A0Contact me if you're interested. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 3 23:16:53 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95E4A106566B for ; Sun, 3 May 2009 23:16:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from nyi.unixathome.org (nyi.unixathome.org [64.147.113.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A1768FC14 for ; Sun, 3 May 2009 23:16:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nyi.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043E850A91; Mon, 4 May 2009 00:16:53 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at unixathome.org Received: from nyi.unixathome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nyi.unixathome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j011sK02qyku; Mon, 4 May 2009 00:16:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from smtp-auth.unixathome.org (smtp-auth.unixathome.org [10.4.7.7]) (Authenticated sender: hidden) by nyi.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BE315509A3 ; Mon, 4 May 2009 00:16:51 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <49FE25B9.6010502@langille.org> Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 19:16:09 -0400 From: Dan Langille Organization: The FreeBSD Diary User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (X11/20090422) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Royce Williams References: <9dd082310905021249i28a16c79oba4059da9f61d76c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9dd082310905021249i28a16c79oba4059da9f61d76c@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: contributing more X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 23:16:53 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Royce Williams wrote: > P.S. My potential attendee buddy can't make it, so I now have an > apartment-style room to combine with someone. Contact me if you're > interested. Try posting that here: http://www.bsdcan.org/phorum/list.php?f=7 - -- Dan Langille BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference : http://www.bsdcan.org/ PGCon - The PostgreSQL Conference: http://www.pgcon.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkn+JbQACgkQCgsXFM/7nTwurACg6QgpvWXeFdiDL2bZguhFYzUm jLwAnRnme9Qt0eQonL22RkjJ1lPP1joF =IHAA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 5 01:14:43 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C36106566B for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 01:14:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from mx1.highperformance.net (s8.stradamotorsports.com [64.81.163.126]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A7358FC08 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 01:14:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from [192.168.1.17] ([192.168.1.17]) by mx1.highperformance.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n450wMQt092961 for ; Mon, 4 May 2009 17:58:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Message-ID: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 17:58:22 -0700 From: "Jason C. Wells" User-Agent: Mozilla-Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090103) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fbsd_chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=2.5 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on s4.stradamotorsports.com Subject: End of Life is Meaningless X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 01:14:44 -0000 That should be read as "End of Life" is meaningless. Not end of "Life is Meaningless." Life is still meaningless, as is this post if you disagree. It mystifies me that there is this recent tendency for people to get concerned about EOL. "What do I do?" My answer, "Do nothing." Just because a FreeBSD version is EOL doesn't mean you have to stop using it. It doesn't mean that your particular version is suddenly prone to downtime. It doesn't mean you can't install patches even though the secteam won't be updating CVS. It doesn't mean you can't continue to develop applications for a major version. EOL is a tool for FreeBSD to manage its own house. It is in no way a directive on how you should manage your house. Queue someone still running 2.1.5 with uptime stats. Come on. You know you want to show off. To the people who have to manage limited resources and must therefore implement an EOL policy. I commend you on the balancing act. Good on ya mates. Your doing a fine job. Regards, Jason From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 5 01:49:03 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AF43106566C for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 01:49:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sequethin@gmail.com) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5C988FC13 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 01:49:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sequethin@gmail.com) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 9so2611106ywe.13 for ; Mon, 04 May 2009 18:49:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:to:in-reply-to :references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer :content-transfer-encoding; bh=I2iKH/nQLsJK83r58DzJEbdkl/KYtg1tVRHk+lGJBRU=; b=C8FSFVlvg3H7UgakxYETP8HV7ZxaaFb1tgHBtfw53WGjhDwo9br+bG7pFYwvzsYF/t WWc9nIovV9Usk8pT22aYrH2H69V9a+FtRrRhNtPi9UrgtIx4RmSz2crcTLmEbkPMfLOL VwC+zmtqZqtPkNpcdLQcgkS9LJHIArqXNaD6I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:to:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id :mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZmkHe7cgGryLVZcrWUUnDdfz7ItZ+03hYbju1m3UP8CP9b9Hh1zVk8WjAUr2MEHxwD irn6L6o289jhJrGJ31ey2QvDd3uowMz/LSRve8zD5U21Fwol1L0L3ywPeMCUZ9imdGhf cT07pOU1L0oZwi35CBs6V/+D7i3HvKRjKVdbA= Received: by 10.100.106.1 with SMTP id e1mr14552085anc.15.1241486937091; Mon, 04 May 2009 18:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.140? (pool-68-160-222-187.ny325.east.verizon.net [68.160.222.187]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d24sm945417and.1.2009.05.04.18.28.55 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 04 May 2009 18:28:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hernandez To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> References: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 21:28:50 -0400 Message-Id: <1241486930.10923.13.camel@Euterpe> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.26.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: End of Life is Meaningless X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 01:49:03 -0000 On Mon, 2009-05-04 at 17:58 -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > That should be read as "End of Life" is meaningless. Not end of "Life > is Meaningless." Life is still meaningless, as is this post if you > disagree. > > It mystifies me that there is this recent tendency for people to get > concerned about EOL. "What do I do?" My answer, "Do nothing." Just > because a FreeBSD version is EOL doesn't mean you have to stop using > it. It doesn't mean that your particular version is suddenly prone to > downtime. It doesn't mean you can't install patches even though the > secteam won't be updating CVS. It doesn't mean you can't continue to > develop applications for a major version. > > EOL is a tool for FreeBSD to manage its own house. It is in no way a > directive on how you should manage your house. Queue someone still > running 2.1.5 with uptime stats. Come on. You know you want to show off. > > To the people who have to manage limited resources and must therefore > implement an EOL policy. I commend you on the balancing act. Good on ya > mates. Your doing a fine job. > I understand that some systems can't afford downtime for an upgrade, but why not upgrade? A few minutes of uptime to take advantage of the hard work that the developers poured into making another release can't be a bad thing can it? I agree that there's certainly no need to panic, but in situations where a little downtime is acceptable I wouldn't opt to stay with the old system. Just my .02 :) --Mike H From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 5 14:36:07 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A571065677 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 14:36:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4BD8FC1F for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 14:36:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n45EZfi5073892; Tue, 5 May 2009 16:36:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n45EZfTM073891; Tue, 5 May 2009 16:35:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 16:35:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200905051435.n45EZfTM073891@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 05 May 2009 16:36:04 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: End of Life is Meaningless X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 14:36:07 -0000 Jason C. Wells wrote: > That should be read as "End of Life" is meaningless. Not end of "Life > is Meaningless." Life is still meaningless, as is this post if you > disagree. > > It mystifies me that there is this recent tendency for people to get > concerned about EOL. "What do I do?" My answer, "Do nothing." Just > because a FreeBSD version is EOL doesn't mean you have to stop using > it. It doesn't mean that your particular version is suddenly prone to > downtime. It doesn't mean you can't install patches even though the > secteam won't be updating CVS. It doesn't mean you can't continue to > develop applications for a major version. > > EOL is a tool for FreeBSD to manage its own house. It is in no way a > directive on how you should manage your house. Queue someone still > running 2.1.5 with uptime stats. Come on. You know you want to show off. > > To the people who have to manage limited resources and must therefore > implement an EOL policy. I commend you on the balancing act. Good on ya > mates. Your doing a fine job. I agree somewhat with the above, but ... Everyone running an EOLed system should be aware that there will be no more security patches for it. Well, at least no official ones from the security team. So, once someone finds a security bug that affects you, you either need to update or try to fix it yourself (or find someone to fix it for you; most BSD-supporting companies such as the one I'm working for will do this, but it's not for free, of course). On the other hand, there's not only the problem that there are no security patches, but you also won't get advisories if newer systems aren't affected by a certain problem. For example, if someone discovers a buffer overflow in the libc of FreeBSD 4.11, but 5.x and newer are not affected, then there won't be an advisory. That means that you don't even _know_ that you're in trouble. Basically, from a security point of view, running EOLed versions of FreeBSD is not a very good idea. Given the fact that the EOL deadlines are announced long in advance, and the fact that updating FreeBSD is quite easy (either via source or via binary update), there are very few valid excuses for staying with an EOLed version. Just my 0.02 Euro cents. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "That's what I love about GUIs: They make simple tasks easier, and complex tasks impossible." -- John William Chambless From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 5 16:02:22 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CD0D1065675 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 16:02:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C595D8FC18 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 16:02:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87FFE6D449 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 18:02:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6AD63844B9; Tue, 5 May 2009 18:02:19 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200905051435.n45EZfTM073891@lurza.secnetix.de> Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 18:02:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200905051435.n45EZfTM073891@lurza.secnetix.de> (Oliver Fromme's message of "Tue, 5 May 2009 16:35:41 +0200 (CEST)") Message-ID: <867i0vpmgk.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.92 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Subject: Re: End of Life is Meaningless X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 16:02:22 -0000 Oliver Fromme writes: > Basically, from a security point of view, running EOLed versions of > FreeBSD is not a very good idea. Given the fact that the EOL > deadlines are announced long in advance, and the fact that updating > FreeBSD is quite easy (either via source or via binary update), there > are very few valid excuses for staying with an EOLed version. That's the theory. The problem is that there may not be anything to upgrade to, because release dates tend to slip. For instance, the original EoL date for 6.2 was 2008-01-31, but 6.3 wasn't released until 2008-01-18. This was addressed at the last minute by extending 6.2's lifetime by four months. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 5 16:15:05 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB0201065674 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 16:15:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pde@rfc822.net) Received: from mail-gx0-f210.google.com (mail-gx0-f210.google.com [209.85.217.210]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3628FC22 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 16:15:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pde@rfc822.net) Received: by gxk6 with SMTP id 6so2643091gxk.19 for ; Tue, 05 May 2009 09:15:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.8.8 with SMTP id l8mr413046ybi.142.1241538195759; Tue, 05 May 2009 08:43:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1241486930.10923.13.camel@Euterpe> References: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> <1241486930.10923.13.camel@Euterpe> Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 10:43:15 -0500 Message-ID: <310d12470905050843p1bd1f8aai19414b3ea06d962d@mail.gmail.com> From: Pete Ehlke To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: End of Life is Meaningless X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 16:15:06 -0000 On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Mike Hernandez wrote: > I understand that some systems can't afford downtime for an upgrade, but > why not upgrade? A few minutes of uptime to take advantage of the hard > work that the developers poured into making another release can't be a > bad thing can it? I agree that there's certainly no need to panic, but > in situations where a little downtime is acceptable I wouldn't opt to > stay with the old system. Just my .02 :) > > --Mike H > > Suppose I have a decent sized installation of 2000 machines, and they've been running SomeOS v4.1 for three years. That's over 2 Million machine-days of production experience I have with SomeOS v4.1. Sure, there are bugs, there are behaviors that may not be ideal, and there may be things that I have to work around. But with 2 Million machine-days under my belt, I pretty much *understand* those bugs, behaviors, and workarounds, and I can with fairly significant precision predict and model my installation. Now, upgrade them. What do I have? I have maybe eliminated some of the bugs and suboptimal behaviors that I knew about, but now I have exactly Zero hours of production experience with my new installation. There are new bugs that nobody knows about yet, new behaviors to find, and new workarounds to develop. I can't, with any precision, model my installation, and I can't effectively predict its behavior. Management is going to nail me on predictability. They couldn't give a rat's butt about bugs and vulnerabilities, it's predictability and risk management that counts. That's why a lot of people in large installations won't upgrade. Surprisingly often, there is no compelling reason to, and there are very significant disincentives. It's by no means clear at all that 'a little downtime' is the only cost of an upgrade. -P. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 5 16:21:25 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FAE9106566B for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 16:21:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA9638FC16 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 16:21:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n45GL0fi079036; Tue, 5 May 2009 18:21:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n45GL0Ee079035; Tue, 5 May 2009 18:21:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 18:21:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200905051621.n45GL0Ee079035@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <867i0vpmgk.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 05 May 2009 18:21:23 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: End of Life is Meaningless X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 16:21:25 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Oliver Fromme writes: > > Basically, from a security point of view, running EOLed versions of > > FreeBSD is not a very good idea. Given the fact that the EOL > > deadlines are announced long in advance, and the fact that updating > > FreeBSD is quite easy (either via source or via binary update), there > > are very few valid excuses for staying with an EOLed version. > > That's the theory. The problem is that there may not be anything to > upgrade to, because release dates tend to slip. For instance, the > original EoL date for 6.2 was 2008-01-31, but 6.3 wasn't released until > 2008-01-18. This was addressed at the last minute by extending 6.2's > lifetime by four months. Yes, that's true. In that case there wasn't much of a choice. Fortunately that doesn't happen often. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "Documentation is like sex; when it's good, it's very, very good, and when it's bad, it's better than nothing." -- Dick Brandon From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 5 16:45:37 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB4571065716 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 16:45:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26BBC8FC19 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 16:45:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n45GjCgk080215; Tue, 5 May 2009 18:45:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n45GjCmc080214; Tue, 5 May 2009 18:45:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 18:45:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200905051645.n45GjCmc080214@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <310d12470905050843p1bd1f8aai19414b3ea06d962d@mail.gmail.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 05 May 2009 18:45:36 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: End of Life is Meaningless X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 16:45:38 -0000 Pete Ehlke wrote: > Suppose I have a decent sized installation of 2000 machines, and they've > been running SomeOS v4.1 for three years. That's over 2 Million machine-days > of production experience I have with SomeOS v4.1. Sure, there are bugs, > there are behaviors that may not be ideal, and there may be things that I > have to work around. But with 2 Million machine-days under my belt, I pretty > much *understand* those bugs, behaviors, and workarounds, and I can with > fairly significant precision predict and model my installation. > > Now, upgrade them. What do I have? > > I have maybe eliminated some of the bugs and suboptimal behaviors that I > knew about, but now I have exactly Zero hours of production experience with > my new installation. There are new bugs that nobody knows about yet, new > behaviors to find, and new workarounds to develop. I can't, with any > precision, model my installation, and I can't effectively predict its > behavior. > > Management is going to nail me on predictability. They couldn't give a rat's > butt about bugs and vulnerabilities, it's predictability and risk management > that counts. > > That's why a lot of people in large installations won't upgrade. > Surprisingly often, there is no compelling reason to, and there are very > significant disincentives. It's by no means clear at all that 'a little > downtime' is the only cost of an upgrade. So ... predictability, you say ... Well, with that attitude you can predict that your 2000 machines will be part of a botnet (or smiliar) very soon. Seriously, when you have an installation of 2000 machines, you'd better have a good update plan including extensive testing procedures, and some of those machines should be reserved for testing. That's what I do even with much smaller installations. There are only very few exceptions. For example, when those 2000 machines are not connected to any network, so security vulnerabilities are not that much of an issue (thinking of Pixar's render farm). But if those machines run any kind of internet service, you will regret not having a working update plan. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "The scanf() function is a large and complex beast that often does something almost but not quite entirely unlike what you desired." -- Chris Torek From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 5 17:10:52 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B242106567D for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 17:10:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from mx03.dls.net (mx03.dls.net [216.145.245.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B4BE8FC22 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 17:10:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from [216.145.235.114] (helo=emailrob.com) by mx03.dls.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1M1OAK-0003qS-Kg; Tue, 05 May 2009 12:10:49 -0500 Message-ID: <4A00651F.40208@emailrob.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 17:11:11 +0100 From: spellberg_robert User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fbsd_chat References: <200905051435.n45EZfTM073891@lurza.secnetix.de> <867i0vpmgk.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: End of Life is Meaningless X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 17:10:53 -0000 right now, all i want to know is: q: will 6.4 be the_last_of_the_sixes ? or q: now that it is nearly six months after_the_fact, is there, still, a non_zero probability that we will celebrate a "blessed event" named 6.5 ? rob Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Oliver Fromme writes: > >>Basically, from a security point of view, running EOLed versions of >>FreeBSD is not a very good idea. Given the fact that the EOL >>deadlines are announced long in advance, and the fact that updating >>FreeBSD is quite easy (either via source or via binary update), there >>are very few valid excuses for staying with an EOLed version. > > > That's the theory. The problem is that there may not be anything to > upgrade to, because release dates tend to slip. For instance, the > original EoL date for 6.2 was 2008-01-31, but 6.3 wasn't released until > 2008-01-18. This was addressed at the last minute by extending 6.2's > lifetime by four months. > > DES From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 5 17:18:25 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ACE2106564A for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 17:18:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fb-chat@psconsult.nl) Received: from mx1.psconsult.nl (psc11.adsl.iaf.nl [80.89.238.138]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83C018FC17 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 17:18:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fb-chat@psconsult.nl) Received: from mx1.psconsult.nl (localhost [80.89.238.138]) by mx1.psconsult.nl (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n45GtOQn094161 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 18:55:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from fb-chat@psconsult.nl) Received: (from paul@localhost) by mx1.psconsult.nl (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id n45GtOu7094160 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 5 May 2009 18:55:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from fb-chat@psconsult.nl) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 18:55:24 +0200 From: Paul Schenkeveld To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20090505165523.GA90651@psconsult.nl> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Subject: Re: End of Life is Meaningless X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 17:18:25 -0000 On Mon, May 04, 2009 at 05:58:22PM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > That should be read as "End of Life" is meaningless. Not end of "Life is > Meaningless." Life is still meaningless, as is this post if you disagree. > > It mystifies me that there is this recent tendency for people to get > concerned about EOL. "What do I do?" My answer, "Do nothing." Just > because a FreeBSD version is EOL doesn't mean you have to stop using it. > It doesn't mean that your particular version is suddenly prone to downtime. > It doesn't mean you can't install patches even though the secteam won't be > updating CVS. It doesn't mean you can't continue to develop applications > for a major version. > > EOL is a tool for FreeBSD to manage its own house. It is in no way a > directive on how you should manage your house. Queue someone still running > 2.1.5 with uptime stats. Come on. You know you want to show off. > > To the people who have to manage limited resources and must therefore > implement an EOL policy. I commend you on the balancing act. Good on ya > mates. Your doing a fine job. I have several servers and a couple of old notebooks running versions of FreeBSD that have been EOL'ed long time ago. They are not accessible from the Internet and I've got no potentially dangerous local users to worry about. On the other hand I administer dozens of FreeBSD systems for my own company and for customers that are connected to the Internet or other hostile networks. I prefer to upgrade those systems every now and then and certainly before they reach their EOL. Not upgrading for a long time, past EOL means that if a major vulnerability gets exposed I cannot simply do a small upgrade using a published fix but that I have to either fix it by hand, which can be time consuming if the sources have changed a lot since, or do a big upgrade probably skipping multiple releases to get to a supported (fixed) release exposing many challenges that I would have faced one by one and not under time pressure if I had done incremental upgrades. So I think the EOL issue is not a black and white issue, it all depends on many things. Whether you run a handful of systems or a whole lot of all different ones, what those systems are exposed to, the importance of the systems and data on them, whether you own the systems of you are responsible of someone elses systems and so on. My $0.02 Paul Schenkeveld From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 5 18:46:51 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE87106564A for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 18:46:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.delphij.net (delphij-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:2c9::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC288FC0A for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 18:46:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org (tarsier.geekcn.org [211.166.10.233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.delphij.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8E225C06F for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 02:46:50 +0800 (CST) Received: from localhost (tarsier.geekcn.org [211.166.10.233]) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C8955D16BF; Wed, 6 May 2009 02:46:50 +0800 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at geekcn.org Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org ([211.166.10.233]) by localhost (mail.geekcn.org [211.166.10.233]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4D8+Xe3i0lM9; Wed, 6 May 2009 02:45:56 +0800 (CST) Received: from charlie.delphij.net (adsl-76-237-33-62.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net [76.237.33.62]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EDBCC55D16C5; Wed, 6 May 2009 02:45:49 +0800 (CST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=default; d=delphij.net; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:organization:user-agent: mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to: x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=m3XuQ2DS4b3zST98M5p1kheBr9DErSAjzOO7t49zte0GiNHD+aAyLDIpbHx0LEAJ+ t/4d/poPTFZ3wkoCfIEwA== Message-ID: <4A00894B.1050105@delphij.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 11:45:31 -0700 From: Xin LI Organization: The FreeBSD Project User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (X11/20090408) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: spellberg_robert References: <200905051435.n45EZfTM073891@lurza.secnetix.de> <867i0vpmgk.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4A00651F.40208@emailrob.com> In-Reply-To: <4A00651F.40208@emailrob.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 OpenPGP: id=18EDEBA0; url=http://www.delphij.net/delphij.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: fbsd_chat Subject: Re: End of Life is Meaningless X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: d@delphij.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 18:46:52 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 spellberg_robert wrote: > right now, all i want to know is: > > q: will 6.4 be the_last_of_the_sixes ? At this point, I'd say that it's very likely that 6.4 is the last of the 6.x release. The current EoL date has been set on November 30, 2010. > or > > q: now that it is nearly six months after_the_fact, > is there, still, a non_zero probability that > we will celebrate a "blessed event" named 6.5 ? > > rob > > > > Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >> Oliver Fromme writes: >> >>> Basically, from a security point of view, running EOLed versions of >>> FreeBSD is not a very good idea. Given the fact that the EOL >>> deadlines are announced long in advance, and the fact that updating >>> FreeBSD is quite easy (either via source or via binary update), there >>> are very few valid excuses for staying with an EOLed version. >> >> >> That's the theory. The problem is that there may not be anything to >> upgrade to, because release dates tend to slip. For instance, the >> original EoL date for 6.2 was 2008-01-31, but 6.3 wasn't released until >> 2008-01-18. This was addressed at the last minute by extending 6.2's >> lifetime by four months. >> >> DES > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" - -- Xin LI http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkoAiUsACgkQi+vbBBjt66CK8gCfRpcde8rS56DUmbevs6SqlGkt w1MAoJ0gKAQkem7wZK9UDWgEt3rr71Qq =3Qb5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 5 20:59:51 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B666106566C for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 20:59:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from solarux@hotmail.com) Received: from bay0-omc1-s14.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc1-s14.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.86]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 842608FC08 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 20:59:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from solarux@hotmail.com) Received: from BAY113-W23 ([65.54.168.123]) by bay0-omc1-s14.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 5 May 2009 13:59:51 -0700 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [67.204.46.76] From: Rick N To: , Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 20:59:51 +0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> References: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 May 2009 20:59:51.0402 (UTC) FILETIME=[6EDCD4A0:01C9CDC4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: RE: End of Life is Meaningless X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 20:59:52 -0000 You already know your answer: Every one of our SunE10K's=2C E6500's=2C and i think now our E4900's are E= OL=2C according to Sun :)=2C but we keep them running ship-shape(updates et= all) and they have paid for themselves over n over again.=20 However=2C we have a (mirrored) Development department that tests these thi= ngs (as carefully as we can)=2C before major upgrades/OS updates. I hear ya=2C Murphy's Law=2C but also and even more so these days=2C If yo= ur Pruduction dept. is that important then so should your Development dept= . be -without which Production will not absorb future changes reliably. All this depends on what you're using your present servers for?. Ours were= heavily transaction/oracle based=2C along with our FreeBSD apache web serv= er farms'... so I'm sorry if this doesn't giude/or match you much. =20 For example=2C we still "only" use our OpenBSD vpn/firewall server=2C its = now 6 years old and other than 6 reboots (2 due to 2 elect.outages) it simp= ly worked fine=2C our network admin finally upgraded it=2C and performance-= wise its much better. Yes=2C this was situational=2C but it worked like a c= harm. This was after we used a $600 (used) Dell-x86-arch system to test it = prior (at 4:00AM u know what I mean). There were of course=2C a couple prob= lems unfortunately to our customers' chagrin=2C but we didn't lose those cu= tomers and the benefits now were well worth it. =20 But yes=2C I aggree with you=2C EOL means nuthin' (why?=2C just beacuse so= me manufacturer' wants you to spend more money?)-however=2C "support" means= everything (be it HW/SW) that we all know. It's oviously a sutuational (money-dependent) judgement call.=20 You can wait 'till you "need" to change/upgrade/update which may be a very= fatal gamble?=2C OR=2C You test it before. I'd rather have some kind of dev/testing than the alter= native. -be it whatever? =20 cheers. =20 Rick. =20 =20 > Date: Mon=2C 4 May 2009 17:58:22 -0700 > From: jcw@highperformance.net > To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: End of Life is Meaningless >=20 > That should be read as "End of Life" is meaningless. Not end of "Life=20 > is Meaningless." Life is still meaningless=2C as is this post if you=20 > disagree. >=20 > It mystifies me that there is this recent tendency for people to get=20 > concerned about EOL. "What do I do?" My answer=2C "Do nothing." Just=20 > because a FreeBSD version is EOL doesn't mean you have to stop using=20 > it. It doesn't mean that your particular version is suddenly prone to=20 > downtime. It doesn't mean you can't install patches even though the=20 > secteam won't be updating CVS. It doesn't mean you can't continue to=20 > develop applications for a major version. >=20 > EOL is a tool for FreeBSD to manage its own house. It is in no way a=20 > directive on how you should manage your house. Queue someone still=20 > running 2.1.5 with uptime stats. Come on. You know you want to show off. >=20 > To the people who have to manage limited resources and must therefore=20 > implement an EOL policy. I commend you on the balancing act. Good on ya=20 > mates. Your doing a fine job. >=20 > Regards=2C > Jason > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe=2C send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" _________________________________________________________________ Create a cool=2C new character for your Windows Live=99 Messenger.=20 http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9656621= From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 5 22:16:04 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 616AE1065688 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 22:16:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from nyi.unixathome.org (nyi.unixathome.org [64.147.113.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 360338FC1B for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 22:16:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nyi.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA1AC50A91 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 23:16:03 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at unixathome.org Received: from nyi.unixathome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nyi.unixathome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XZ-ir57EiSNR for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 23:16:02 +0100 (BST) Received: from smtp-auth.unixathome.org (smtp-auth.unixathome.org [10.4.7.7]) (Authenticated sender: hidden) by nyi.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A85750A9F for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 23:16:02 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4A00BA7A.8090205@langille.org> Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 18:15:22 -0400 From: Dan Langille Organization: The FreeBSD Diary User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (X11/20090422) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: BSDCan has started X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 22:16:04 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 BSDCan has started. :) http://twitter.com/bsdcan - -- Dan Langille BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference : http://www.bsdcan.org/ PGCon - The PostgreSQL Conference: http://www.pgcon.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkoAunoACgkQCgsXFM/7nTwq5gCgg11r+JR5ye2oQJmfic4HLUJ+ 6C0AoJo0KXksfv8ulUr72n/aSO/a/OSI =JUzb -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----