From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 20 02:09:02 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA103106566B; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:09:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danger@FreeBSD.org) Received: from services.rulez.sk (services.rulez.sk [92.240.234.125]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C9F8FC13; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:09:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (services.rulez.sk [92.240.234.125]) by services.rulez.sk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43590133468F; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 03:09:01 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at rulez.sk Received: from services.rulez.sk ([92.240.234.125]) by localhost (services.rulez.sk [92.240.234.125]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5vq+h9z1xgj2; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 03:09:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from danger-mbp.local (danger.mcrn.sk [84.16.37.254]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: danger@rulez.sk) by services.rulez.sk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DDE2D133468E; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 03:08:59 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B2D873A.6010307@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 03:08:58 +0100 From: Daniel Gerzo Organization: The FreeBSD Project User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; sk; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091204 Thunderbird/3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, stable@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: HEADSUP: Call for FreeBSD Status Reports (Oct - Dec 2009) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 02:09:02 -0000 Dear all, Another quarter is soon to be finished and as such, I would like to remind you to submit your status reports as soon as possible, because the submissions for this quarter (covering period of Oct - Dec 2009) are due by Janurary 15th, 2010. I believe a lot of things have happened in the meantime. This call is not only for a reports about new projects, but entries including updates about previously announced projects are to be accepted too. You can find the latest report at http://www.freebsd.org/news/status/report-2009-04-2009-09.html. Please do not hesitate to write us a few lines - a short description about what you are working on, what are the plans and goals or possibly problems you have encountered, so we can inform our community about your great work! It is useful for you, as well as our users! To submit your entry, please post the filled-in XML template available at http://www.freebsd.org/news/status/report-sample.xml, or alternatively use our web based form at http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/monthly.cgi to generate the XML file to be posted by email to monthly@. We are looking forward to see your submissions! -- S pozdravom / Best regards Daniel Gerzo, FreeBSD committer From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 20 05:27:08 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74575106566C for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 05:27:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: from email1.allantgroup.com (email1.emsphone.com [199.67.51.115]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A80A8FC5A for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 05:27:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from dan.emsphone.com (dan.emsphone.com [199.67.51.101]) by email1.allantgroup.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id nBK5R50l015811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:27:05 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: from dan.emsphone.com (smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dan.emsphone.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBK5R5BB071720 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:27:05 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by dan.emsphone.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nBK5R4rs071716; Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:27:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:27:04 -0600 From: Dan Nelson To: Zaphod Beeblebrox Message-ID: <20091220052703.GA98917@dan.emsphone.com> References: <5f67a8c40912182147t1adc158ew9fd3d94c4c4c955f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5f67a8c40912182147t1adc158ew9fd3d94c4c4c955f@mail.gmail.com> X-OS: FreeBSD 7.2-STABLE User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.94.1, clamav-milter version 0.94.1 on email1.allantgroup.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (email1.allantgroup.com [199.67.51.78]); Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:27:05 -0600 (CST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.45 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: scp more perfectly fills the pipe than NFS/TCP X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 05:27:08 -0000 In the last episode (Dec 19), Zaphod Beeblebrox said: > Here's an interesting conundrum. I don't know what's different between > the TCP that scp uses from the TCP that NFS uses, but given the same two > FreeBSD machines, SCP fills the pipe with packets better. > > Examine the following graphic: http://www.eicat.ca/~dgilbert/example-mrtg.png > > The system doing the scp and the NFS server is FreeBSD-7.2-p1. The system > receiving the scp and the NFS client is FreeBSD-8.0-p1 > > The scp transfer is the left hand side of the graph and the NFS transfer > is on the right. > > The NFS is mounted with "-3 -T -b -l -i" and no other options. Files are > being moved over NFS with the system "mv" command. The files in each case > are large (50 to 500 meg files). If you increase the NFS blocksize (-r 32768 for example) you will get slightly better performance, but you will likely never match the scp results. They're doing two different things under the hood: scp is streaming the entire file in one operation, while NFS is performing many "read 8k at offset 0", "read 8k at offset 8k", etc requests one after another, so a high-latency connection will take a performance hit due to the latency in issuing each command. According to the mount_nfs manpage, it looks like there is some prefetching that can be enabled with the "-a ##" option. It doesn't say what the default is, though. -- Dan Nelson dnelson@allantgroup.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 21 05:47:57 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA8FA1065672 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 05:47:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zbeeble@gmail.com) Received: from ey-out-2122.google.com (ey-out-2122.google.com [74.125.78.24]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F23B8FC18 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 05:47:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ey-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 4so1249766eyf.9 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:47:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kHLVqXGa5csLmaySkdV49t1U25XkTZf1EHnY7Bj9s1c=; b=qHyUTr3N/dXGDJsLm7nfO5wBiCEsU9X9JQpbKEKzCVi8KvXNVcgF9nhKk4WYIJlfOE Oi82hHHsn8ifQ2DKYE9SyqJ5bSE1SSPFWDeLKKA4plr1AuEf38nkmGmzH08uRZ7Awvfi fUaITKza1O68Io3kGqF3aNeqtyQg1g4go62o8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=XpwRtCUhmC+pXyPDslJWQ7H0VLLRACJOVLD0X2/uZzp8vE7z9znooCNgcYrkTXfEC9 ONGURmfAQMZwQbkJy27lVVVzK8ReSgK7FaqEejiWlFBDiBg2FwdobkaYDBOhDz75IjIK ymJeSwh4evxZXYlKXKRrX/QstgR3F8685tYmU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.163.81 with SMTP id z59mr2620262wek.95.1261374475966; Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:47:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20091220052703.GA98917@dan.emsphone.com> References: <5f67a8c40912182147t1adc158ew9fd3d94c4c4c955f@mail.gmail.com> <20091220052703.GA98917@dan.emsphone.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 00:47:55 -0500 Message-ID: <5f67a8c40912202147t9d9b64al88060bd8a73c28b0@mail.gmail.com> From: Zaphod Beeblebrox To: Dan Nelson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: scp more perfectly fills the pipe than NFS/TCP X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 05:47:57 -0000 On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Dan Nelson wrot= e: > In the last episode (Dec 19), Zaphod Beeblebrox said: >> Here's an interesting conundrum. =A0I don't know what's different betwee= n >> the TCP that scp uses from the TCP that NFS uses, but given the same two >> FreeBSD machines, SCP fills the pipe with packets better. >> >> Examine the following graphic: http://www.eicat.ca/~dgilbert/example-mrt= g.png >> >> The system doing the scp and the NFS server is FreeBSD-7.2-p1. =A0The sy= stem >> receiving the scp and the NFS client is FreeBSD-8.0-p1 >> >> The scp transfer is the left hand side of the graph and the NFS transfer >> is on the right. >> >> The NFS is mounted with "-3 -T -b -l -i" and no other options. =A0Files = are >> being moved over NFS with the system "mv" command. =A0The files in each = case >> are large (50 to 500 meg files). > > If you increase the NFS blocksize (-r 32768 for example) you will get > slightly better performance, but you will likely never match the scp > results. =A0They're doing two different things under the hood: scp is > streaming the entire file in one operation, while NFS is performing many > "read 8k at offset 0", "read 8k at offset 8k", etc requests one after > another, so a high-latency connection will take a performance hit due to = the > latency in issuing each command. =A0According to the mount_nfs manpage, i= t > looks like there is some prefetching that can be enabled with the "-a ##" > option. =A0It doesn't say what the default is, though. While the link is slow, it is really directly connected with a latency of 10ms or so. Isn't mv mmap()'ing large enough regions to cause there to be a reasonable queue to transfer? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 21 07:27:45 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4BEE106568B for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:27:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: from email1.allantgroup.com (email1.emsphone.com [199.67.51.115]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 685258FC08 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:27:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from dan.emsphone.com (dan.emsphone.com [199.67.51.101]) by email1.allantgroup.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id nBL7RiNc070066 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:27:44 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: from dan.emsphone.com (smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dan.emsphone.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBL7RivG095477 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:27:44 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by dan.emsphone.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nBL7RisO095476; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:27:44 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:27:44 -0600 From: Dan Nelson To: Zaphod Beeblebrox Message-ID: <20091221072743.GD98917@dan.emsphone.com> References: <5f67a8c40912182147t1adc158ew9fd3d94c4c4c955f@mail.gmail.com> <20091220052703.GA98917@dan.emsphone.com> <5f67a8c40912202147t9d9b64al88060bd8a73c28b0@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <5f67a8c40912202147t9d9b64al88060bd8a73c28b0@mail.gmail.com> X-OS: FreeBSD 7.2-STABLE User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.94.1, clamav-milter version 0.94.1 on email1.allantgroup.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (email1.allantgroup.com [199.67.51.78]); Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:27:44 -0600 (CST) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.45 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: scp more perfectly fills the pipe than NFS/TCP X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:27:45 -0000 In the last episode (Dec 21), Zaphod Beeblebrox said: > On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Dan Nelson wrote: > > In the last episode (Dec 19), Zaphod Beeblebrox said: > >> Here's an interesting conundrum.  I don't know what's different between > >> the TCP that scp uses from the TCP that NFS uses, but given the same > >> two FreeBSD machines, SCP fills the pipe with packets better. > >> > >> Examine the following graphic: http://www.eicat.ca/~dgilbert/example-mrtg.png > >> > >> The system doing the scp and the NFS server is FreeBSD-7.2-p1.  The > >> system receiving the scp and the NFS client is FreeBSD-8.0-p1 > >> > >> The scp transfer is the left hand side of the graph and the NFS > >> transfer is on the right. > >> > >> The NFS is mounted with "-3 -T -b -l -i" and no other options.  Files > >> are being moved over NFS with the system "mv" command.  The files in > >> each case are large (50 to 500 meg files). > > > > If you increase the NFS blocksize (-r 32768 for example) you will get > > slightly better performance, but you will likely never match the scp > > results.  They're doing two different things under the hood: scp is > > streaming the entire file in one operation, while NFS is performing many > > "read 8k at offset 0", "read 8k at offset 8k", etc requests one after > > another, so a high-latency connection will take a performance hit due to > > the latency in issuing each command.  According to the mount_nfs > > manpage, it looks like there is some prefetching that can be enabled > > with the "-a ##" option.  It doesn't say what the default is, though. > > While the link is slow, it is really directly connected with a latency > of 10ms or so. Isn't mv mmap()'ing large enough regions to cause > there to be a reasonable queue to transfer? I've never been impressed with FreeBSD's ability to detect sequential read patterns and prefetch blocks ahead of time, even on local ufs filesystems. -- Dan Nelson dnelson@allantgroup.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 21 12:34:34 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA17106566C for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:34:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F8618FC15 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:34:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE536D450; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:34:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8DE0384549; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:34:33 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Zaphod Beeblebrox References: <5f67a8c40912182147t1adc158ew9fd3d94c4c4c955f@mail.gmail.com> <20091220052703.GA98917@dan.emsphone.com> <5f67a8c40912202147t9d9b64al88060bd8a73c28b0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:34:33 +0100 In-Reply-To: <5f67a8c40912202147t9d9b64al88060bd8a73c28b0@mail.gmail.com> (Zaphod Beeblebrox's message of "Mon, 21 Dec 2009 00:47:55 -0500") Message-ID: <86ws0gqzdy.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Dan Nelson Subject: Re: scp more perfectly fills the pipe than NFS/TCP X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:34:34 -0000 Zaphod Beeblebrox writes: > While the link is slow, it is really directly connected with a latency > of 10ms or so. 10 ms is pretty high. A "direct connection" (same Ethernet segment) should have a round-trip latency well below 1 ms. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 21 13:35:58 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC2E106566C; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:35:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [65.122.17.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C11AB8FC1E; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:35:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (66.111.2.69.static.nyinternet.net [66.111.2.69]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8084046B2D; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:35:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from jhbbsd.localnet (unknown [209.249.190.9]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C0ADD8A01B; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:35:57 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:09:51 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.12.1 (FreeBSD/7.2-CBSD-20091103; KDE/4.3.1; amd64; ; ) References: <200912170908.49119.jhb@freebsd.org> <28F90357192743E085ABEE7CD4C9FDF9@multiplay.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <28F90357192743E085ABEE7CD4C9FDF9@multiplay.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200912181009.51798.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0.1 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:35:57 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.1 at bigwig.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on bigwig.baldwin.cx Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Steven Hartland Subject: Re: Passenger hangs on live and SEGV on tests possible threading / kernel bug? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:35:59 -0000 On Thursday 17 December 2009 12:27:17 pm Steven Hartland wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Baldwin" > > For the hang it seems you have a thread waiting in a blocking read(), a thread > > waiting in a blocking accept(), and lots of threads creating condition > > variables. However, the pthread_cond_init() in libpthread (libthr on FreeBSD) > > doesn't call pthread_cleanup_push(), so your stack trace doesn't make sense to > > me. However, that may be gdb getting confused. The pthread_cleanup_push() > > frame may be cond_init(). However, it doesn't call umtx_op() (the > > _thr_umutex_init() call it makes just initializes the structure, it doesn't > > make a _umtx_op() system call). You might try posting on threads@ to try to > > get more info on this, but your pthread_cond_init() stack traces don't really > > make sense. Can you rebuild libc and libthr with debug symbols? > > > > For example: > > > > # cd /usr/src/lib/libc > > # make clean > > # make DEBUG_FLAGS=-g > > # make DEBUG_FLAGS=-g install > > > > However, if you are hanging in read(), that usually means you have a socket > > that just doesn't have data. That might be an application bug of some sort. > > > > The segv trace doesn't include the first part of GDB messages which show which > > thread actually had a seg fault. It looks like it was the thread that was > > throwing an exception. However, nanosleep() doesn't throw exceptions, so that > > stack trace doesn't really make sense either. Perhaps that stack is hosed by > > the exception handling code? > > I've uploaded a two more traces for the oxt test failure / segv. > http://code.google.com/p/phusion-passenger/issues/detail?id=441#c1 > > >From looking at the test case it testing the capture of failures and its ability > to create a stack trace output so that may give others some indication where > the issue may be? > > I will look to do the same on for the hang issue but that's on a live site so > will need to schedule some downtime before I can get those rebuilt and then > wait for it to hang again, which could be quite some time :( Hmmm, the only seg fault I see is happening down inside libgcc in the stack unwinding code and that is 3rd party code from gcc. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 21 14:56:50 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3E71065672; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:56:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prvs=1606d79c9a=killing@multiplay.co.uk) Received: from mail1.multiplay.co.uk (mail1.multiplay.co.uk [85.236.96.23]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B798FC13; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:56:49 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=multiplay.co.uk; s=Multiplay; t=1261406759; x=1262011559; q=dns/txt; h=Received: Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=WcvkYUdxLWf1fK94wEqMx Cnu0BV1ArYPKdcqaLk0oDc=; b=AwvBf1HbBrNizYmg2wxHY6GKdEmjtQGxgFVPb DMF1MQieG92aJiD9N0MkseKb3UD+OgH/zknHIEkCj8DwPS0ono7dGi4XZlohxUKA mfW7gul9I4xtrMOAMzYJJW87u6R1IY6HwEznaRF4KjPsnpuJEGBn63nyFLP8m6p9 6yXKaU= X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:45:59 +0000 Received: from r2d2 by mail1.multiplay.co.uk (MDaemon PRO v10.0.4) with ESMTP id md50008898881.msg; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:45:58 +0000 X-Spam-Processed: mail1.multiplay.co.uk, Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:45:58 +0000 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-Authenticated-Sender: Killing@multiplay.co.uk X-MDRemoteIP: 213.123.247.160 X-Return-Path: prvs=1606d79c9a=killing@multiplay.co.uk X-Envelope-From: killing@multiplay.co.uk Message-ID: <35611FAF2F4045E19AF1DD70C1286D84@multiplay.co.uk> From: "Steven Hartland" To: "John Baldwin" , References: <200912170908.49119.jhb@freebsd.org><28F90357192743E085ABEE7CD4C9FDF9@multiplay.co.uk> <200912181009.51798.jhb@freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:45:53 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Passenger hangs on live and SEGV on tests possible threading /kernel bug? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:56:50 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Baldwin" >> I've uploaded a two more traces for the oxt test failure / segv. >> http://code.google.com/p/phusion-passenger/issues/detail?id=441#c1 >> >> >From looking at the test case it testing the capture of failures and its ability >> to create a stack trace output so that may give others some indication where >> the issue may be? >> >> I will look to do the same on for the hang issue but that's on a live site so >> will need to schedule some downtime before I can get those rebuilt and then >> wait for it to hang again, which could be quite some time :( > > Hmmm, the only seg fault I see is happening down inside libgcc in the stack > unwinding code and that is 3rd party code from gcc. Thanks for looking John, so you believe this may be an issue with the gcc code? What would be the next step on this, raise it on a gcc mail list or something? Regards Steve ================================================ This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to postmaster@multiplay.co.uk. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 21 15:16:41 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30C171065693; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:16:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [65.122.17.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035E18FC15; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:16:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (66.111.2.69.static.nyinternet.net [66.111.2.69]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AE5C746B0C; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from jhbbsd.localnet (unknown [209.249.190.9]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 46FEC8A01B; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:16:39 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: "Steven Hartland" Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:06:34 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.12.1 (FreeBSD/7.2-CBSD-20091103; KDE/4.3.1; amd64; ; ) References: <200912181009.51798.jhb@freebsd.org> <35611FAF2F4045E19AF1DD70C1286D84@multiplay.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <35611FAF2F4045E19AF1DD70C1286D84@multiplay.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200912211006.34216.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0.1 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:16:39 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.1 at bigwig.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on bigwig.baldwin.cx Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Passenger hangs on live and SEGV on tests possible threading /kernel bug? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:16:41 -0000 On Monday 21 December 2009 9:45:53 am Steven Hartland wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Baldwin" > >> I've uploaded a two more traces for the oxt test failure / segv. > >> http://code.google.com/p/phusion-passenger/issues/detail?id=441#c1 > >> > >> >From looking at the test case it testing the capture of failures and its ability > >> to create a stack trace output so that may give others some indication where > >> the issue may be? > >> > >> I will look to do the same on for the hang issue but that's on a live site so > >> will need to schedule some downtime before I can get those rebuilt and then > >> wait for it to hang again, which could be quite some time :( > > > > Hmmm, the only seg fault I see is happening down inside libgcc in the stack > > unwinding code and that is 3rd party code from gcc. > > Thanks for looking John, so you believe this may be an issue with the gcc code? > > What would be the next step on this, raise it on a gcc mail list or something? I'm not sure. :) That may be best. You could also try examining the registers and assembly to see if you can figure out more of what is going on when it dies. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 21 15:18:07 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4AF51065670; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:18:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [65.122.17.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7D828FC13; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:18:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (66.111.2.69.static.nyinternet.net [66.111.2.69]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6568C46B0C; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:18:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from jhbbsd.localnet (unknown [209.249.190.9]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C5D5D8A01B; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:18:06 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: "Steven Hartland" Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:06:34 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.12.1 (FreeBSD/7.2-CBSD-20091103; KDE/4.3.1; amd64; ; ) References: <200912181009.51798.jhb@freebsd.org> <35611FAF2F4045E19AF1DD70C1286D84@multiplay.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <35611FAF2F4045E19AF1DD70C1286D84@multiplay.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200912211006.34216.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0.1 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:18:06 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.1 at bigwig.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on bigwig.baldwin.cx Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Passenger hangs on live and SEGV on tests possible threading /kernel bug? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:18:07 -0000 On Monday 21 December 2009 9:45:53 am Steven Hartland wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Baldwin" > >> I've uploaded a two more traces for the oxt test failure / segv. > >> http://code.google.com/p/phusion-passenger/issues/detail?id=441#c1 > >> > >> >From looking at the test case it testing the capture of failures and its ability > >> to create a stack trace output so that may give others some indication where > >> the issue may be? > >> > >> I will look to do the same on for the hang issue but that's on a live site so > >> will need to schedule some downtime before I can get those rebuilt and then > >> wait for it to hang again, which could be quite some time :( > > > > Hmmm, the only seg fault I see is happening down inside libgcc in the stack > > unwinding code and that is 3rd party code from gcc. > > Thanks for looking John, so you believe this may be an issue with the gcc code? > > What would be the next step on this, raise it on a gcc mail list or something? I'm not sure. :) That may be best. You could also try examining the registers and assembly to see if you can figure out more of what is going on when it dies. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 21 15:34:57 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28AF5106566C; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:34:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from frank@exit.com) Received: from tinker.exit.com (tinker.exit.com [IPv6:2001:470:80f4:0:2e0:81ff:fe2b:acbc]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E518FC16; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:34:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from jill.exit.com (jill.exit.com [IPv6:2001:470:80f4:0:2e0:81ff:fe33:7e9a]) by tinker.exit.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBLFYtbB011009; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:34:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@exit.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=exit.com; s=tinker; t=1261409695; bh=2JPkR3dRSJcKi3cyJlPj9LkhfcUpqDcHjilRtvIlAyE=; h=Subject:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Date:Message-Id:Mime-Version; b=lEOa69+p b6LE6AirDVP1GpqpV6ckD8s3/a1+LV6XXZx29YYsA4M7yX5j/7gwi6JsIKKHln7Ws2U ypApgCwkZ7D6jfwkOAppHjg7fQ8UciENq/jPZLx698kLCuJyP3XkGRq7RwA07nfsstF 308RV9JtLDQeAx9v102+gBRvh7KWI= Received: from jill.exit.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jill.exit.com (8.14.3/8.14.2) with ESMTP id nBLFYtqf072238; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:34:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@exit.com) Received: (from frank@localhost) by jill.exit.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nBLFYt3g072237; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:34:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@exit.com) X-Authentication-Warning: jill.exit.com: frank set sender to frank@exit.com using -f From: Frank Mayhar To: freebsd-hackers Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Exit Consulting Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:34:54 -0800 Message-Id: <1261409694.72019.6.camel@jill.exit.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.26.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Cc: freebsd-mobile Subject: Atheros AR9281 still not supported? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: frank@exit.com List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:34:57 -0000 So I take it that the newer Atheros chipsets are still not supported in FreeBSD 8? I thought I saw a rumor a while ago that they would be but now I can't track it down and of course the BugBusting page shows this series as still unsupported. Unfortunately I'm having a problem with my formerly trusty ar5212 interface since I upgraded (hangs, can't reset, error "ath_chan_set: unable to reset channel 36 (5180 Mhz, flags 0x140), hal status 3") so I was hoping to use the builtin interface, but it appears that's out. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks. -- Frank Mayhar frank@exit.com http://www.exit.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ http://www.zazzle.com/fmayhar* From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 21 20:53:47 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 624E71065676 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:53:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07AFA8FC18 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:53:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id nBLKgb6Y021551; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:42:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.2/8.13.4/Submit) id nBLKga0G021550; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:42:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:42:36 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200912212042.nBLKga0G021550@apollo.backplane.com> To: Zaphod Beeblebrox References: <5f67a8c40912182147t1adc158ew9fd3d94c4c4c955f@mail.gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: scp more perfectly fills the pipe than NFS/TCP X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:53:47 -0000 Play with the read-ahead mount options for NFS, but it might require more work with that kind of latency. You need to be able to have a lot of RPC's in-flight to maintain the pipeline with higher latencies. At least 16 and possibly more. It might be easier to investigate why the latency is so high and fix that first. 10ms is way too high for a LAN. I remember there was some work in the FreeBSD tree to clean up the client-side NFS rpc mechanics but if they are still threaded (kernel thread or user thread, doesn't matter) with one synchronous RPC per thread then a large amount of read-ahead will cause the requests to be issued out of order over the wire (for both TCP and UDP NFS mounts), which really messes up the server-side heuristics. Plus the client-side threads wind up competing with each other for the socket lock. So there is a limit to how large a read-ahead you can specify and still get good results. If they are using a single kernel thread for socket reading and a single kernel thread for socket writing (i.e. a 100% async RPC model, which is what DFly uses), then you can boost the read-ahead to 50+. At that point the socket buffer becomes the limiting factor in the pipeline. Make sure the NFS mount is TCP (It defaults to TCP in FreeBSD 8+). UDP mounts will not perform well with any read-ahead greater then 3 or 4 RPCs because occassional seek latencies on the server will cause random UDP RPCs to timeout and retry, which completely destroys performance. UDP mounts have no understanding of the RPC queue backlog on the server and treat each RPC independently for timeout/retry purposes. So one minor stall can blow up every single pending RPC backed up behind the one that stalled. -Matt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 21 21:06:27 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226F11065698 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:06:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zbeeble@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f211.google.com (mail-ew0-f211.google.com [209.85.219.211]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 916698FC19 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:06:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ewy3 with SMTP id 3so6537327ewy.13 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:06:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EkV2tVJAU/Qp0F/eiFGQxKVzxQEbzaUVL9gmBh/tpp4=; b=b/wX6nZ/56imizXDp0CwC89ssmoMbeTaaY4AY9g7L58fCMhna9ccPntmfLK5wOew0e ry8vXYXsaRHjwxM0rUc1wxvQE8IvNyYpglFGhC8P0mT0Z0tIje5w70yODCmNvsnPuT2k WCiux6UmwDhzhuxPG3A8WyrJtB3pjFzTLYsXk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dQK47wgn0XPx/99MGW5JTv3BCL3Ql/9GWVBRHSIkszpkQW0TH+dEGtDJE7kUpRg8X8 Tlt9wvKUAwiCq006ROcyvEg9a0Avf3Ap7PDNcnQF0fIY8rJbOREXCoZZo9JqNdEvjpI+ crm8gCGM4tO6LXufuhCwQt37Tot3W5ZD9+HmE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.87.194 with SMTP id y44mr2675654wee.204.1261429585209; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:06:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <200912212042.nBLKga0G021550@apollo.backplane.com> References: <5f67a8c40912182147t1adc158ew9fd3d94c4c4c955f@mail.gmail.com> <200912212042.nBLKga0G021550@apollo.backplane.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:06:25 -0500 Message-ID: <5f67a8c40912211306k657b9a2aj7c037d3f08b8ab21@mail.gmail.com> From: Zaphod Beeblebrox To: Matthew Dillon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: scp more perfectly fills the pipe than NFS/TCP X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:06:27 -0000 I must say that I often deeply respect your position and your work, but your recent willingness to jump into a conversation without reading the whole of it ... simply to point out some point where your pet is better than the subject of the list... is disappointing. Case in point... On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Matthew Dillon wrote: > =A0 =A0Play with the read-ahead mount options for NFS, but it might requi= re > =A0 =A0more work with that kind of latency. =A0You need to be able to hav= e > =A0 =A0a lot of RPC's in-flight to maintain the pipeline with higher late= ncies. > =A0 =A0At least 16 and possibly more. I should almost label that ObContent. > =A0 =A0It might be easier to investigate why the latency is so high and f= ix > =A0 =A0that first. =A010ms is way too high for a LAN. Ref. my origional post. The connection is DSL, but completely managed. 10ms is fairly good for DSL > =A0 =A0Make sure the NFS mount is TCP (It defaults to TCP in FreeBSD 8+).= =A0UDP > =A0 =A0mounts will not perform well with any read-ahead greater then 3 or= 4 > =A0 =A0RPCs because occassional seek latencies on the server will cause > =A0 =A0random UDP RPCs to timeout and retry, which completely destroys > =A0 =A0performance. =A0UDP mounts have no understanding of the RPC queue = backlog > =A0 =A0on the server and treat each RPC independently for timeout/retry > =A0 =A0purposes. =A0So one minor stall can blow up every single pending R= PC > =A0 =A0backed up behind the one that stalled. Again, from the original post, not only was -T specified, but (as you say) it is the default for FreeBSD 8. for a 4 megabit pipe, very few transactions need to be in flight to fill it. Does the TCP NFS use tech like selective ack? Is it the same stack as the one that scp is using? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 21 21:39:31 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C39B106566C for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:39:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F188FC0C for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:39:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id nBLLdUWI022112; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:39:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.2/8.13.4/Submit) id nBLLdT7E022111; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:39:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:39:29 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200912212139.nBLLdT7E022111@apollo.backplane.com> To: Zaphod Beeblebrox References: <5f67a8c40912182147t1adc158ew9fd3d94c4c4c955f@mail.gmail.com> <200912212042.nBLKga0G021550@apollo.backplane.com> <5f67a8c40912211306k657b9a2aj7c037d3f08b8ab21@mail.gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: scp more perfectly fills the pipe than NFS/TCP X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 21:39:31 -0000 I'm just covering all the bases. To be frank, half the time when someone posts they are doing something a certain way it turns out that they actually aren't. I've learned that covering the bases tends to lead to solutions more quickly than assuming a perfect rendition. For example, is that 10ms latency with a ping? What about a ping -s 4000? If you are talking about 16KB RCP transactions over TCP then the real question is what is the latency for 16KB of data coming back along the wire? In your case we can calculate the read-ahead needed to keep the pipe full. 500 KBytes/sec divided by 16KB is 31 transactions per second, or an effective latency of 32ms + probably 5-10 for the RPC to be sent... so probably more around 40ms. Not 10ms. And if you are using 32KB transactions the latency is going to be more around 70ms. 500K x 40ms = is about 20KB, so theoretically a read-ahead of 2 packets should do the trick. There's a catch, however. Depending on the client-side implementation the read-ahead requests may be transmitted out of order. That is if the cp or dd program wants to read blocks 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, the actual RPC's sent over the wire might be sent like this: 0, 2, 1, 4, 3, or even 0, 4, 1, 2, 3. Someone who know what work was done on the FreeBSD NFS stack can tell you whether that is still the case. If the nfsiod's (whether kernel threads or not) are separate synchronous RPCs then the read-ahead can transmit the RPC requests out of order. The server may also respond to them out of order... (typically there being 4 server-side threads handling RPCs). The combination is deadly. If the read-aheads transmit out of order what happens is that cp/dd/whatever on the client winds up stalling waiting for the next linear block to come back, which might be BEHIND a later read-ahead block coming back down the wire. That is, the stall, the RPC latency winds up being multiplied by N. A 40ms turn can turn into an 80 or 120ms turn before the cp/dd/whatever unstalls. To deal with this you want to set the read-ahead higher... probably at least 3 or four RPCs. As I said, there are other issues as the amount of read-ahead increases. The only way to really figure out what is going on is to tcpdump the link and determine why the pipeline is not being maintained. Look for out of order requests, out of order responses, and stalls (actual lost packets). Actual lost packets are not likely in your case, assuming you are using something like fair-share scheduling and not RED (RED should only be used by routers in the middle of a large network, it should never be used at the end-points). -Matt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 21 23:05:30 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707C1106566C for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:05:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8888FC0A for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:05:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id nBLN5T7u022862; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.14.2/8.13.4/Submit) id nBLN5S9I022861; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:05:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:05:28 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200912212305.nBLN5S9I022861@apollo.backplane.com> To: Zaphod Beeblebrox References: <5f67a8c40912182147t1adc158ew9fd3d94c4c4c955f@mail.gmail.com> <200912212042.nBLKga0G021550@apollo.backplane.com> <5f67a8c40912211306k657b9a2aj7c037d3f08b8ab21@mail.gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: scp more perfectly fills the pipe than NFS/TCP X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:05:30 -0000 Oh, one more thing... I'm assuming you haven't used tcpdump with NFS much. tcpdump has issues parsing the NFS RPC's out of a TCP stream. For the purposes of testing you may want to temporarily use a UDP NFS mount. tcpdump can parse the NFS RPCs out of the UDP stream far more easily. If you use a UDP mount use the dumbtimer option and set it to something big, like 10 seconds, so you don't get caught up in NFS/UDP's retry code (which will confuse your parsing of the output). A typical tcpdump line would be something like this: tcpdump -n -i nfe0 -l -s 4096 -vvv not port 2049 Where the port is whatever port the NFS RPC's are running over while you are running the test. You'd want to display it on a max-width xterm, or record a bunch of it to a file and then review it via less. The purpose of running the tcpdump is to validate all your assumptions as well as determine whether basic features such as read-ahead are actually running. You can also determine if packet loss is occuring, if requests are being sent or responded to out of order (the RPC tcpdump parses includes the request id's and the file offsets so it should be easy to figure that out). You can also determine the actual latency by looking at the timestamps for the request vs the reply. Once you've figured out as much as you can from that you can try tcpdumping the TCP stream. In this case you may not be able to pick out RPCs but you should be able to determine whether the requests are being pipelined and whether any packet loss is occurring or not. You can also determine whether the TCP link is working properly... i.e. that the TCP packets are properly flagging the 'P'ushes and not delaying the responses, and that the link isn't blowing out its socket buffer or TCP window (those are two separate things). The kernel should be scaling things properly but you never know. -Matt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 06:31:24 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51EDF106573C for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:31:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jasonspiro@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f185.google.com (mail-pz0-f185.google.com [209.85.222.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D7B98FC16 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:31:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pzk15 with SMTP id 15so4052234pzk.3 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:31:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=Mof7xuNQ6/E217iGKpQ8G5+kI0JSDY5N/LF7pn0gUek=; b=EfyCnbnk5zl5Uc91ZrESPwO3bunEqa6f44ACSYmPTCNCqmVtiBtI8a4mupgPGb+aBV M6qOOmo9ydBXOG8kbGSCUu1tPOKwwfGvnPmX5U/6NDX27jJUMNuTIO8EoddudsYx0rJL 2mEcUvDMK8o+BwxvIvnB8SPwIW02mYdGC796M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id :subject:to:content-type; b=xBQvqi+YmY+aOhCqRVyjyo5ROr2IvLHqwqqQtxEfOibaHVc423B+i2w32olwM4UxJw wGiYeY2kNOmwbQTlsqLr7CDkp9z7DATES7eiKFG//8z5d6vgfzPoNjtAYY8JfgQhxFVo r+PLpIffo5oAflUDawa9IcOdwI6ve+6vw1EE0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: jasonspiro@gmail.com Received: by 10.141.188.1 with SMTP id q1mr5305200rvp.294.1261463482073; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:31:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason A. Spiro" Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 01:31:02 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 678b2aaddd45fe8b Message-ID: To: Craig Small , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Subject: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:31:24 -0000 Dear Craig, thanks for maintaining the "killall" command on Linux. Dear hackers, thanks for maintaining it on FreeBSD. Naming it the same as System V killall, which just kills all processes, can wreak havoc. When someone types a standard Linux killall command line as root on a Solaris or HP-UX server, System V killall runs and kills all processes. It might be good if you'd rename it to something else. Not "akill" (All Kill): it looks like IRIX probably ships with something called akill already, so this would be confusing. Maybe "fkill" (Friendly Kill). You could do this in phases: for the first five years, /usr/bin/killall could print a warning onscreen, then function as usual. After five years, it could cease to function unless you call it as "fkill". Craig, and hackers, are you both willing to do this? -Jason -- Jason Spiro: software/web developer, packager, trainer, IT consultant. I support Linux, UNIX, Windows, and more. Contact me to discuss your needs. +1 (416) 992-3445 / www.jspiro.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 06:55:47 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB2A106568D for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:55:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (cain.gsoft.com.au [203.31.81.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D05B8FC1B for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:55:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from inchoate.gsoft.com.au ([203.31.81.30]) (authenticated bits=0) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id nBM6thRH017059 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:25:43 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:25:32 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2451957.POklE68dG7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200912221725.40074.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -3.977 () ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 203.31.81.10 Cc: "Jason A. Spiro" , Craig Small Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 06:55:47 -0000 --nextPart2451957.POklE68dG7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, 22 Dec 2009, Jason A. Spiro wrote: > Naming it the same as System V killall, which just kills all > processes, can wreak havoc. =A0When someone types a standard Linux > killall command line as root on a Solaris or HP-UX server, System V > killall runs and kills all processes. > > It might be good if you'd rename it to something else. =A0Not "akill" > (All Kill): =A0it looks like IRIX probably ships with something called > akill already, so this would be confusing. =A0Maybe "fkill" (Friendly > Kill). Why not get Sun and HP to change killall to match Linux & *BSD=20 behaviour? Although seriously, why not? killall just killing everything is a fairly=20 dangerous command with almost no use in the real world. =2D-=20 Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C --nextPart2451957.POklE68dG7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBLMG1r5ZPcIHs/zowRAsvLAJ987Pgrh/hXE4FGZ4qeqpTKAF/KGgCfeXM5 GfrzpntbXrvcgwbURU9vu2w= =u0C7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2451957.POklE68dG7-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 07:45:03 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369591065679 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:45:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f44.google.com (mail-pw0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4E28FC0C for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:45:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pwi15 with SMTP id 15so4003052pwi.3 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:45:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=WnquYCpH9zNcBO+9Tlu8b91HQChdBHDx52ZhY7PotWs=; b=hslMQ6RlKbmBQtU2NpD43Db6AOB9Pe34pjrYr9sVX8dblunvOIWq1Zr1BI4Nx/ue2V EG+sibyJhrpN6prH66Qs0mtQYUwbO9ahR0FDVHW3O05eGympTxBFYzlgxx7BCdsXpeJ+ +UMbbXaXrhmuukczeWy9rWL01/pAqW56N3ui8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=mGyGxFpgX3rCDtKBxw3/+kgFY/kPrPWqrlsb0o6cuMkgyOZ/OFKz01RNrC46TXbxJ2 dEHh3LJwBrc2xEDyTBOYO+yblJq0xiM/JiTArhLvGjgWWSxDj8jJdNGgqsJ/dLg7XPIj io1BKpiPiaigSgKtzStKrVdHXS3L4e53b35g8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.84.8 with SMTP id m8mr5667159wal.144.1261466323719; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:18:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:18:43 -0800 Message-ID: From: Xin LI To: "Jason A. Spiro" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Craig Small Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:45:03 -0000 On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Jason A. Spiro wrote: > Craig, and hackers, are you both willing to do this? No. killall is not part of standard, and, just because System V choose to implement that way, does not warrant that FreeBSD has to. Moreover, user can always alias /sbin/killall to 'fkill' and 'kill -15 -1' to 'killall' if they really want the System V behavior. Cheers, -- Xin LI http://www.delphij.net From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 10:33:47 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3881106566C for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:33:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 869238FC0C for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:33:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A321FFC1E; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:33:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5DD0B84531; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:33:46 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Jason A. Spiro" References: Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:33:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Jason A. Spiro's message of "Tue, 22 Dec 2009 01:31:02 -0500") Message-ID: <86zl5b70xh.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Craig Small Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:33:47 -0000 man pkill DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 10:53:47 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0631065679 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:53:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gary.jennejohn@freenet.de) Received: from mout7.freenet.de (mout7.freenet.de [IPv6:2001:748:100:40::2:9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 220BD8FC0C for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:53:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [195.4.92.23] (helo=13.mx.freenet.de) by mout7.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID gary.jennejohn@freenet.de) (port 25) (Exim 4.70 #1) id 1NN2N7-0007xF-Iw; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:53:45 +0100 Received: from p57ae00f6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([87.174.0.246]:36758 helo=ernst.jennejohn.org) by 13.mx.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID gary.jennejohn@freenet.de) (port 25) (Exim 4.69 #94) id 1NN2N7-0005tw-1b; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:53:45 +0100 Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:53:36 +0100 From: Gary Jennejohn To: Xin LI Message-ID: <20091222115336.3515e69e@ernst.jennejohn.org> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.3 (GTK+ 2.16.2; amd64-portbld-freebsd9.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, "Jason A. Spiro" , Craig Small Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: gary.jennejohn@freenet.de List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:53:47 -0000 On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:18:43 -0800 Xin LI wrote: > On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Jason A. Spiro wrote: > > Craig, and hackers, are you both willing to do this? > > No. > > killall is not part of standard, and, just because System V choose to > implement that way, does not warrant that FreeBSD has to. Moreover, > user can always alias /sbin/killall to 'fkill' and 'kill -15 -1' to > 'killall' if they really want the System V behavior. > I'm wondering why we even need killall when pkill seems to have the same basic functionality and is located in /bin (and /rescue) rather than /usr/bin? --- Gary Jennejohn From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 12:07:27 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA95910656B0 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:07:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mandree@FreeBSD.org) Received: from unimail.uni-dortmund.de (mx1.HRZ.Uni-Dortmund.DE [129.217.128.51]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A3D8FC19 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:07:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [131.234.21.37] (balu.cs.uni-paderborn.de [131.234.21.37]) (authenticated bits=0) by unimail.uni-dortmund.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBMBsJtT002673 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:54:19 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B30B36B.7070408@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:54:19 +0100 From: Matthias Andree User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; de; rv:1.8.1.23) Gecko/20090812 Thunderbird/2.0.0.23 Mnenhy/0.7.6.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org References: <86zl5b70xh.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86zl5b70xh.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:07:27 -0000 Am 22.12.2009 11:33, schrieb Dag-Erling Smørgrav: > man pkill And that one is also provided on Solaris. -- Matthias Andree From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 08:29:25 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C200E106566C for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:29:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from csmall@enc.com.au) Received: from ipmail03.adl6.internode.on.net (ipmail03.adl6.internode.on.net [203.16.214.141]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4392F8FC18 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:29:24 +0000 (UTC) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Aj0FAB8OMEt5LJ5b/2dsb2JhbACBStRXhC4EgWQ Received: from ppp121-44-158-91.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net (HELO mail.enc.com.au) ([121.44.158.91]) by ipmail03.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 22 Dec 2009 18:44:06 +1030 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.enc.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16E72C1A4; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:14:01 +1100 (EST) Received: from mail.enc.com.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EoRPwn4vaBot; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:14:01 +1100 (EST) Received: by mail.enc.com.au (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B75C62C1A9; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:14:01 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:14:01 +1100 From: Craig Small To: "Jason A. Spiro" Message-ID: <20091222081401.GB13725@enc.com.au> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:21:38 +0000 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:29:25 -0000 On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 01:31:02AM -0500, Jason A. Spiro wrote: > Naming it the same as System V killall, which just kills all > processes, can wreak havoc. When someone types a standard Linux > killall command line as root on a Solaris or HP-UX server, System V > killall runs and kills all processes. Hello Jason (and the FreeBSD folk), The problem for me is that killall in Linux has been called that for a very long time now. psmisc came out 11 years ago and before that killall was in procps. I'm not sure when but the copyright message says 1994. That's 16 years or more of people getting very used to killall doing what it does and being called killall. I know of the problem you refer to having administered Solaris servers before, but changing the name now will cause more problems than it solves. > Craig, and hackers, are you both willing to do this? I'm not. Even though I just got a new SATA drive its not big enough to handle the torrent of emails from people saying "why did i do that" and "who cares about Solaris" etc etc if I did change it. Sounds like its a no from FreeBSD folk too. In fact to me its more important my various programs look the same(ish) across the Linux distributions and to FreeBSD than they are to Solaris. I also agree with Daniel; why would anyone want to literally kill every process? - Craig -- Craig Small GnuPG:1C1B D893 1418 2AF4 45EE 95CB C76C E5AC 12CA DFA5 http://www.enc.com.au/ csmall at : enc.com.au http://www.debian.org/ Debian GNU/Linux, software should be Free From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 15:33:28 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9A5106568F for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 15:33:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from uqs@spoerlein.net) Received: from acme.spoerlein.net (acme.spoerlein.net [IPv6:2a01:198:206::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCFAA8FC18 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 15:33:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from acme.spoerlein.net (localhost.spoerlein.net [IPv6:::1]) by acme.spoerlein.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBMFXLJI040372 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 Dec 2009 16:33:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from uqs@spoerlein.net) Received: (from uqs@localhost) by acme.spoerlein.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id nBMFXK0q040371; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 16:33:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from uqs@spoerlein.net) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 16:33:20 +0100 From: Ulrich =?utf-8?B?U3DDtnJsZWlu?= To: Gary Jennejohn Message-ID: <20091222153320.GA36616@acme.spoerlein.net> Mail-Followup-To: Gary Jennejohn , Xin LI , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, "Jason A. Spiro" , Craig Small References: <20091222115336.3515e69e@ernst.jennejohn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20091222115336.3515e69e@ernst.jennejohn.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, "Jason A. Spiro" , Craig Small Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 15:33:28 -0000 On Tue, 22.12.2009 at 11:53:36 +0100, Gary Jennejohn wrote: > On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:18:43 -0800 > Xin LI wrote: > > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Jason A. Spiro wrote: > > > Craig, and hackers, are you both willing to do this? > > > > No. > > > > killall is not part of standard, and, just because System V choose to > > implement that way, does not warrant that FreeBSD has to. Moreover, > > user can always alias /sbin/killall to 'fkill' and 'kill -15 -1' to > > 'killall' if they really want the System V behavior. > > > > I'm wondering why we even need killall when pkill seems to have the same > basic functionality and is located in /bin (and /rescue) rather than /usr/bin? Seconded, people should make it a habit to use pkill or for example pgrep instead of killall or ps|grep. Way more portable anyway :) Regards, Uli From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 18:29:18 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06642106566B for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:29:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nate@thatsmathematics.com) Received: from euclid.ucsd.edu (euclid.ucsd.edu [132.239.145.52]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25AD8FC15 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:29:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zeno.ucsd.edu (zeno.ucsd.edu [132.239.145.22]) by euclid.ucsd.edu (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id nBMITHo00283; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (neldredg@localhost) by zeno.ucsd.edu (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id nBMITHi19746; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:29:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: zeno.ucsd.edu: neldredg owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:29:16 -0800 (PST) From: Nate Eldredge X-X-Sender: neldredg@zeno.ucsd.edu To: Craig Small In-Reply-To: <20091222081401.GB13725@enc.com.au> Message-ID: References: <20091222081401.GB13725@enc.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, "Jason A. Spiro" Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:29:18 -0000 On Tue, 22 Dec 2009, Craig Small wrote: > I also agree with Daniel; why would anyone want to literally kill every > process? AFAIK, it's a helper program for shutdown(8) (or shutdown(1M) as they call it) and isn't really intended to be useful otherwise. -- Nate Eldredge nate@thatsmathematics.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 18:35:18 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FCD1065698 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:35:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stephen@missouri.edu) Received: from cauchy.math.missouri.edu (cauchy.math.missouri.edu [128.206.184.213]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CA28FC08 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:35:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from laptop3.gateway.2wire.net (cauchy.math.missouri.edu [128.206.184.213]) by cauchy.math.missouri.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBMIZHn2075126 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:35:17 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from stephen@missouri.edu) Message-ID: <4B311165.4020800@missouri.edu> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:35:17 -0600 From: Stephen Montgomery-Smith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD amd64; en-US; rv:1.8.1.23) Gecko/20091213 Firefox/3.5.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:35:18 -0000 I would like to introduce a program into the base called "screw-the-whole-system." It would do something like this: while true; do \ echo "Please wait while your system is being destroyed..." sleep 10 done From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 19:18:08 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213321065672 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:18:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhellenthal@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gx0-f218.google.com (mail-gx0-f218.google.com [209.85.217.218]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80B68FC1B for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:18:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by gxk10 with SMTP id 10so6265016gxk.3 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:18:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:date:from:cc:subject :in-reply-to:message-id:references:user-agent:followup-to :x-openpgp-key-id:x-openpgp-key-fingerprint:mime-version :content-type; bh=M+BTZIFkjIsfpIuE/YObtH0hLlOouFhx5r7H7mAmA78=; b=JeoZpvEBQEc8YrYB3shCzuPYYN2HRMAtAsT6OBitaqrpZztO0XRtiTOd8gTBaxSc2+ Th4LCb24xC1ZoNjqWf1AAmg5VOzZImySkBsL7TO9NftJVOUWd3wOL6ml9fnQYbQjqiVQ 74f7VTWDmHj6lhEFdDpkYaJpXtJDlJfQvwbwE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:date:from:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references :user-agent:followup-to:x-openpgp-key-id:x-openpgp-key-fingerprint :mime-version:content-type; b=bO28Jc71QLyIMCckRRy+unQV3OuAvvoxUvFvD0LNNQTKMwZnWHPJxv6lYl8IspOLu+ tmmce9iVGdsICbxRoEJNCyn819e03r27WYIAz2IT3yP5UI13fUWxQdHyB0myPu70JTZj fzzenF8dM77lZDXA7074LEpYwGhVqRYp15TB4= Received: by 10.151.1.4 with SMTP id d4mr546167ybi.265.1261509487112; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:18:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp-22.68.dialinfree.com (ppp-22.68.dialinfree.com [209.172.22.68]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 22sm2492769ywh.30.2009.12.22.11.18.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:18:05 -0800 (PST) Sender: "J. Hellenthal" Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:17:52 -0500 From: jhell cc: FreeBSD Hackers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-OpenPGP-Key-Id: 0x89D8547E X-OpenPGP-Key-Fingerprint: 85EF E26B 07BB 3777 76BE B12A 9057 8789 89D8 547E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:18:08 -0000 On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 01:31, jasonspiro4@ wrote: > Dear Craig, thanks for maintaining the "killall" command on Linux. > Dear hackers, thanks for maintaining it on FreeBSD. > > Naming it the same as System V killall, which just kills all > processes, can wreak havoc. When someone types a standard Linux > killall command line as root on a Solaris or HP-UX server, System V > killall runs and kills all processes. > > It might be good if you'd rename it to something else. Not "akill" > (All Kill): it looks like IRIX probably ships with something called > akill already, so this would be confusing. Maybe "fkill" (Friendly > Kill). > > You could do this in phases: for the first five years, > /usr/bin/killall could print a warning onscreen, then function as > usual. After five years, it could cease to function unless you call > it as "fkill". > > Craig, and hackers, are you both willing to do this? > > -Jason > This is what shell aliases are for and what a system admins job consist of. If it gives you that much of a problem just alias it out for your self in your .cshrc .shrc .bashrc .bash_profile etc. If you want to change something on a more per user basis figure out how to setup a skeleton directory so when a new user is created they get all the files from that skel copied into there home. If it is more of a system-wide change then the shell files in /etc will probably be of more use. PS: Applying your changes to a mailing list are not const. -- Tue Dec 22 14:09:40 2009 jhell From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 20:55:11 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1215106566C for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 20:55:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from lo.gmane.org (lo.gmane.org [80.91.229.12]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D5A8FC15 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 20:55:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1NNBl3-0001VN-92 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:55:05 +0100 Received: from CPE00134609fbfb-CM0013718690da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com ([99.226.150.73]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:55:05 +0100 Received: from jasonspiro4 by CPE00134609fbfb-CM0013718690da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:55:05 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Jason Spiro Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 20:18:57 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 99.226.150.73 (Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.0.13) Gecko/2009080717 Firefox/3.0.13) Sender: news Subject: Applying your changes to a mailing list are not const (was: Suggestion: rename ...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 20:55:12 -0000 jhell DataIX.net> writes: [snip] > PS: Applying your changes to a mailing list are not const. What does that sentence mean? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 21:00:06 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3AA71065693 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:00:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from lo.gmane.org (lo.gmane.org [80.91.229.12]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FED48FC19 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:00:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1NNBps-0003Vc-JD for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:00:04 +0100 Received: from CPE00134609fbfb-CM0013718690da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com ([99.226.150.73]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:00:04 +0100 Received: from jasonspiro4 by CPE00134609fbfb-CM0013718690da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:00:04 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Jason Spiro Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 20:57:41 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <20091222115336.3515e69e@ernst.jennejohn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 99.226.150.73 (Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.0.13) Gecko/2009080717 Firefox/3.0.13) Sender: news Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:00:06 -0000 Gary Jennejohn freenet.de> writes: > I'm wondering why we even need killall when pkill seems to have the same > basic functionality and is located in /bin (and /rescue) rather than /usr/bin? I like killall because of its -v (verbose) option. It lets me know what killall killed. You just inspired me to request the pkill upstream maintainer to add a similar option. My feature request is at http://bugs.debian.org/562111 . -Jason From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 21:26:13 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44930106566C for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:26:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx21.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C944B8FC17 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:26:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 27283 invoked by uid 399); 22 Dec 2009 21:26:12 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 22 Dec 2009 21:26:12 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B313977.3030605@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 13:26:15 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Spiro References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Applying your changes to a mailing list are not const X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:26:13 -0000 Jason Spiro wrote: > jhell DataIX.net> writes: > > [snip] >> PS: Applying your changes to a mailing list are not const. > > What does that sentence mean? My version of that would be: 1. More polite: You can easily alias killall='echo NO!' on your solaris machines to avoid accidentally typing killall there. 2. Less polite: This is not FreeBSD's problem, go away. :) Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 21:26:26 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05FE51065745 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:26:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from lo.gmane.org (lo.gmane.org [80.91.229.12]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 845C58FC15 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:26:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1NNCFL-0005lD-6Z for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:26:23 +0100 Received: from CPE00134609fbfb-CM0013718690da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com ([99.226.150.73]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:26:23 +0100 Received: from jasonspiro4 by CPE00134609fbfb-CM0013718690da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:26:23 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Jason Spiro Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:26:10 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <20091222081401.GB13725@enc.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 99.226.150.73 (Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.0.13) Gecko/2009080717 Firefox/3.0.13) Sender: news Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:26:26 -0000 Craig Small enc.com.au> writes: > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 01:31:02AM -0500, Jason A. Spiro wrote: > > Hello Jason (and the FreeBSD folk), > > The problem for me is that killall in Linux has been called that for a > very long time now. psmisc came out 11 years ago and before that killall > was in procps. I'm not sure when but the copyright message says 1994. > > That's 16 years or more of people getting very used to killall doing > what it does and being called killall. I know of the problem you refer > to having administered Solaris servers before, but changing the name now > will cause more problems than it solves. What problems will it cause, other than a torrent of complaints? > > Craig, and hackers, are you both willing to do this? > > I'm not. Even though I just got a new SATA drive its not big enough to > handle the torrent of emails from people saying "why did i do that" and > "who cares about Solaris" etc etc if I did change it. I can create a special email address for this, you can mention "Complaints to" and the new address in the warning message, and I can try to reply to everyone. I will make use of form letters whenever it makes sense to. > Sounds like its a no from FreeBSD folk too. In fact to me its more > important my various programs look the same(ish) across the Linux > distributions and to FreeBSD than they are to Solaris. [snip] I will reply to Xin's "no" message later. I agree that it's a good idea that you and the FreeBSD folk should use the same name for the same utility. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 21:55:35 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 475AF106566C for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:55:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from lo.gmane.org (lo.gmane.org [80.91.229.12]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32118FC14 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:55:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1NNChX-0000Fy-VK for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:55:32 +0100 Received: from CPE00134609fbfb-CM0013718690da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com ([99.226.150.73]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:55:31 +0100 Received: from jasonspiro4 by CPE00134609fbfb-CM0013718690da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:55:31 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Jason Spiro Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:55:09 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <200912221725.40074.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 99.226.150.73 (Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.0.13) Gecko/2009080717 Firefox/3.0.13) Sender: news Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:55:35 -0000 Daniel O'Connor gsoft.com.au> writes: > > Why not get Sun and HP to change killall to match Linux & *BSD > behaviour? > > > Although seriously, why not? killall just killing everything is a fairly > dangerous command with almost no use in the real world. Because I find that when I send feedback to closed-source software vendors, I often get no reply at all. But if any of you want to file an OpenSolaris bug or write to HP or any other of the Unix vendors who ship a dangerous killall command (I think most do), feel free. Please let us know that you've done so, to help us avoid duplication. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 22:03:22 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0BA7106568B for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:03:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jasonspiro@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f44.google.com (mail-pw0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 731868FC22 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:03:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pwi15 with SMTP id 15so4416893pwi.3 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:03:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ikjDLG0FWjFOZKH3oLCnOzmx3MSBahLZDijIg+A5Wr0=; b=sna18G3WhQKGGfnFF3TBSXtzJGjkOY8TjBBdhwC3pNo0YciI0urV6W1ZRjp0frHKgh pjWpbyCjzgF8IXaOyHFw2dswGKSpbO+VqlwmOYQSNDaPdofGDKmRn2lPj0b7RSia93sP okhTn3+EVAEJu5DRxIS4svvCA++fzjJrOQEf4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=Ra3rbsnnSwRGSGj/YfssPejnDEsyPNIvp7IvHpVNdK4y2F1l3Frsdc13wmf/IALNl3 epULZLyc85VJKFAKLnczLtbPbakZX1pI+WB0roz+WW8QhRzxRXOALebF/976SDUrBzot dew8QDklR2fryT+/x3NTK48Y3WFdtejjlY4BI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: jasonspiro@gmail.com Received: by 10.140.58.21 with SMTP id g21mr6458048rva.114.1261519402053; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:03:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: "Jason A. Spiro" Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:03:02 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5078c96cc3ff7cd4 Message-ID: To: Xin LI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Craig Small Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:03:22 -0000 On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 2:18 AM, Xin LI wrote: > > No. > > killall is not part of standard, and, just because System V choose to > implement that way, does not warrant that FreeBSD has to. =A0Moreover, > user can always alias /sbin/killall to 'fkill' and 'kill -15 -1' to > 'killall' if they really want the System V behavior. Xin, I'd like to discuss this issue with you by some means other than email. Could you please phone me at (646) 461-3412 (my Google Voice call forwarding number, New York, NY); or is Skype voice chat okay? (Those are my preferred options.) Or how about IRC or MSN text discussion? I can summarize the results of our conversation to the mailing list afterwa= rds. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 22:10:22 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87DA6106568F for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:10:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from lo.gmane.org (lo.gmane.org [80.91.229.12]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FA528FC16 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:10:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1NNCvb-0006WQ-VD for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:10:03 +0100 Received: from CPE00134609fbfb-CM0013718690da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com ([99.226.150.73]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:10:03 +0100 Received: from jasonspiro4 by CPE00134609fbfb-CM0013718690da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:10:03 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Jason Spiro Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:06:12 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 99.226.150.73 (Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.0.13) Gecko/2009080717 Firefox/3.0.13) Sender: news Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:10:22 -0000 jhell DataIX.net> writes: > > This is what shell aliases are for and what a system admins job consist > of. If it gives you that much of a problem just alias it out for your self > in your .cshrc .shrc .bashrc .bash_profile etc. If you want to change > something on a more per user basis figure out how to setup a skeleton > directory so when a new user is created they get all the files from that > skel copied into there home. If it is more of a system-wide change then > the shell files in /etc will probably be of more use. > > PS: Applying your changes to a mailing list are not const. Using aliases would help me, but wouldn't help people elsewhere in the world who don't know what SysV killall does. Renaming FreeBSD killall would help prevent them from getting burned, perhaps on a busy production server, even once. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 22:34:03 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57E4D106568F for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:34:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f44.google.com (mail-pw0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C5038FC14 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:34:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pwi15 with SMTP id 15so4430235pwi.3 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:34:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+6J4aAbz8kq2SZUv4qHW1lC7I2b3qs9SoFpEmKYnAgk=; b=xKK1JBiMt7AfHnL5B0oLhoxfzJqThfYWWTtj3Uk11fm39+nAKPeNU7rqoabhLYTxXX T147jxDDiGbJyKMGHlHWIZjtCisZCYKCEB2yEZTrTAjnqTbNdnRnQrILN2bChizh7KUY ouEcW5tU35rrFe6ghWok2t3+RbBpO9vs7zkIg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JTUu0BwbXaGNf3Euz6tjzrw10D8qp1zWPwKjGepryx1V6iUqEck6KK8989DpXyZ5Sx 2PC0B8tYtGV4jq+tA9NA827acc+vN8SZx1tygzz7ggu3kuYRopjFBON4sGiauQavlmdo uGFYSdCrPiy+bMwyPzTvar/KmXDVERBc6eT+Q= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.117.9 with SMTP id u9mr6261858wam.172.1261521240742; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:34:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:34:00 -0800 Message-ID: From: Xin LI To: Jason Spiro Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:34:03 -0000 Hi, On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Jason Spiro wrote: > jhell DataIX.net> writes: >> >> This is what shell aliases are for and what a system admins job consist >> of. If it gives you that much of a problem just alias it out for your se= lf >> in your .cshrc .shrc .bashrc .bash_profile etc. If you want to change >> something on a more per user basis figure out how to setup a skeleton >> directory so when a new user is created they get all the files from that >> skel copied into there home. If it is more of a system-wide change then >> the shell files in /etc will probably be of more use. >> >> PS: Applying your changes to a mailing list are not const. > > Using aliases would help me, but wouldn't help people elsewhere in the wo= rld who > don't know what SysV killall does. =C2=A0Renaming FreeBSD killall would h= elp prevent > them from getting burned, perhaps on a busy production server, even once. I'm afraid that it's too late to change either parties, i.e. there would be a lot of scripts that rely on the BSD or Linux behavior, etc. Instead of making changes to killall which already diverge between open source implementation and closed source ones, it might be better off to have administrators to learn some more consistent ways to do the same task, i.e. pkill. Cheers, --=20 Xin LI http://www.delphij.net From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 22:55:06 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D693D106566B for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:55:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jasonspiro@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f185.google.com (mail-pz0-f185.google.com [209.85.222.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A568D8FC12 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:55:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pzk15 with SMTP id 15so4542083pzk.3 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:55:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DZsWRun405G8/B5zDi7i7IkXgaB9YGX7012Rvj2RMi8=; b=Un4PWu5Z56dCVYgnzJ9t9AxnpujFu2XlljIMzykeb1If93Uh8QZpWD7p8jqj7u4T8l h8zJsMbn8U8ddAkuIBc5tn5y+ye9DR9TMTAZL/q01vC6W8A7+674R2/RVvtFB2BFBnTo DfKNA3uZUGX2qZYcIA3QfLAi3neXGoThQMxh0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=qr1fN0YNz6fAJe4y82KShXeci3a8I3JyWbskm9wtVdVTx9igDzQjEK5sswaDzZCwx5 Bz9/3hKw6HkXY3zFDLxTfKOucajFMUBEPBbv8TJGhjtyXyBOJfZVYMjaFKYSwb8tnVBE UgWYgIJ4SEv0jyhyYw/TDmxWM60L/cz0rxEVQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: jasonspiro@gmail.com Received: by 10.141.1.1 with SMTP id d1mr6599568rvi.29.1261522506061; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:55:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: "Jason A. Spiro" Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:54:46 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: f11507759c955b9c Message-ID: To: Xin LI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:55:06 -0000 Hi Xin, On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Xin LI wrote: > I'm afraid that it's too late to change either parties, i.e. there > would be a lot of scripts that rely on the BSD or Linux behavior, etc. That is why I suggested that you first show a warning message for five years, then do the renaming. > =A0Instead of making changes to killall which already diverge between > open source implementation and closed source ones, If you rename the open source killall to "fkill", then you will no longer have a killall command which differs between open source and closed source. > it might be better > off to have administrators to learn some more consistent ways to do > the same task, i.e. pkill. It would be good if sysadmins learned not to use killall. But I think that most sysadmins who are already used to killall are unlikely to learn not to type the command "killall" unless you rename open-source killall to a different name like "fkill". I think it's impractical to expect all sysadmins to switch to pkill. Pkill is missing the option which displays a list onscreen of which processes were killed. I sent a feature request to the maintainer, but there is no guarantee that the maintainer will add that option. And maybe there are other pkill options which are missing from skill. Cheers, -Jason From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 22:58:53 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBF4D106566B for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:58:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jasonspiro@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f190.google.com (mail-px0-f190.google.com [209.85.216.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E4438FC22 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:58:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pxi28 with SMTP id 28so4468287pxi.7 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:58:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=41C1+KWp9wMuXElKXvpHvcpFeOH1fCjX8MvJ81chHAs=; b=dnKehmgrj9b+68TMRP+ZQ4xCGIkJHjnLxBelEimBL3kyY+carsO0zyP/lBUS/VEVJO 1+TeJqD90yAqU37R92yQO0EOo3Lg9ZLLv6FxLCrV0Krd54yZ6Bm38ZrjCyH524WpTPQq IPOzg/NS9u+gBpJ97BoFq+UkvXTBxZuiqZgtc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=MuW2YMnh9YOhCipiHihsPlKUnDTCrMRCBmRPJVzUUIQ9uOQwYvgA3boZecGf3luN12 pgurr52vyaZ9mg1n7ZTby24IuxeAIXK1sGcoAzkyH7zLgl82nqtteYlto9amtVl78gVD h2ZCqRJnT4780oTVBzPg116N0evcmMpuxDE+I= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: jasonspiro@gmail.com Received: by 10.141.124.15 with SMTP id b15mr6477082rvn.21.1261522733083; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:58:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: "Jason A. Spiro" Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:58:33 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4b874b691f540d7a Message-ID: To: Xin LI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Craig Small Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:58:53 -0000 On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Jason A. Spiro wrote: [snip] > Xin, I'd like to discuss this issue with you by some means other than > email. Followup to my earlier message: Thanks for sending me a private mail with your Jabber address. I added you. But then I saw your most recent list post, and realized that I'd prefer to discuss killall by list posting than private instant messaging for now. -Jason From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 23:44:05 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A145B106568F for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:44:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx21.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31FFE8FC14 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:44:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 19670 invoked by uid 399); 22 Dec 2009 23:44:04 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 22 Dec 2009 23:44:04 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B3159C7.9040309@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 15:44:07 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Spiro References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:44:05 -0000 Jason Spiro wrote: > Using aliases would help me, but wouldn't help people elsewhere in the world who > don't know what SysV killall does. Seriously, it's not our problem if solaris did something stupid. There is no hope whatsoever that you're going to get every Unix that has a rational 'killall' command to change, so can we please drop this thread? Thanks, Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 23:47:27 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF22D1065670 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:47:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org (delphij-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:2c9::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E228FC15 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:47:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.geekcn.org (tarsier.geekcn.org [211.166.10.233]) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B91CA5A204; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 07:47:14 +0800 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at geekcn.org Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org ([211.166.10.233]) by mail.geekcn.org (mail.geekcn.org [211.166.10.233]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id CLIM5MeBtNDI; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 07:46:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from delta.delphij.net (drawbridge.ixsystems.com [206.40.55.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3860BA5A207; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 07:46:41 +0800 (CST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=default; d=delphij.net; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:organization:user-agent: mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bEUO/1WoxQURd60j4xPf8N3SjMTCLrxhtpKKWx5lcGByRqp7wjAan2JkKEVFDEcp9 xPRHj/D92bAZ+mRcvfMLg== Message-ID: <4B315A5A.6040101@delphij.net> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 15:46:34 -0800 From: Xin LI Organization: The Geek China Organization User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD amd64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091220 Thunderbird/3.0 ThunderBrowse/3.2.6.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: d@delphij.net List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:47:27 -0000 On 2009/12/22 14:54, Jason A. Spiro wrote: > Hi Xin, > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Xin LI wrote: > >> I'm afraid that it's too late to change either parties, i.e. there >> would be a lot of scripts that rely on the BSD or Linux behavior, etc. > > That is why I suggested that you first show a warning message for five > years, then do the renaming. killall can be used by scripts which just works in the past, and will never notice the warnings. Also, killall is not "that" dangerous on FreeBSD, we should ONLY give warnings when it's really necessary, otherwise users would just ignore all warnings we gave to them. On the other hand, it seems to us that warning messages won't work, no matter how long we give it, it is being ignored by a majority of users. >> Instead of making changes to killall which already diverge between >> open source implementation and closed source ones, > > If you rename the open source killall to "fkill", then you will no > longer have a killall command which differs between open source and > closed source. Then users are already familiar with FreeBSD would have to learn what "fkill" is, and after all, having them to pay for mistakes made by commercial Unix vendors does not seem to be a fair option. >> it might be better >> off to have administrators to learn some more consistent ways to do >> the same task, i.e. pkill. > > It would be good if sysadmins learned not to use killall. But I think > that most sysadmins who are already used to killall are unlikely to > learn not to type the command "killall" unless you rename open-source > killall to a different name like "fkill". Well, I'd say it's too late for us to change since it's several years after we have 'killall' our way. > I think it's impractical to expect all sysadmins to switch to pkill. > Pkill is missing the option which displays a list onscreen of which > processes were killed. I sent a feature request to the maintainer, > but there is no guarantee that the maintainer will add that option. > And maybe there are other pkill options which are missing from skill. pkill have '-I', at least on FreeBSD... Cheers, -- Xin LI http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! Live free or die From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 23:48:34 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8741065670 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:48:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jille@quis.cx) Received: from istud.quis.cx (56-64-223.ftth.xms.internl.net [85.223.64.56]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E945F8FC1B for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:48:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (unknown [192.168.0.4]) by istud.quis.cx (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F766109B8; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:32:40 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B315716.2060401@quis.cx> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:32:38 +0100 From: Jille Timmermans User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Montgomery-Smith References: <4B311165.4020800@missouri.edu> In-Reply-To: <4B311165.4020800@missouri.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:48:34 -0000 You forgot to mention that we should wait ten years; and after that change it's name to "killall" Stephen Montgomery-Smith schreef: > I would like to introduce a program into the base called > "screw-the-whole-system." It would do something like this: > > while true; do \ > echo "Please wait while your system is being destroyed..." > sleep 10 > done > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 22 23:58:01 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3AC9106566B for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:58:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jasonspiro@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f44.google.com (mail-pw0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9761A8FC14 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:58:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pwi15 with SMTP id 15so4464549pwi.3 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 15:58:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=7X9cNbmnqrCy1QO0zHVMPCMRAnnpU8LgXJU7zgK6zgA=; b=XsSW70Z5aGgeVT00WbSI2unUCPbnT709s4lcV8ZHeieapiXM3PpnIC/ezg94xuuRtq 78xzyY78AS8GgQfHAyuQkhoVWSALe6fYGjFY3WEV8oOuBgokwEm1QpK0BKZARJjhhgV2 +Imbs+/rTOu11YsS3XCW0yTvZIGIzshgqFJPc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=lxkVEq0ZTh7ohk2nucTgK6PXnXd2SVnL/SH9QXynmnDdujkdceeCf02Oo8WYWyUzWV hgqslmb4vdUjjJlpLEbFwIbmESzPWNH48VnXCctNQvJqjadPifdrh98NNOLhBqby0hNL NYDhm/eaHP+wYWJiNruk+Jp0mZJwgO3zKcQnw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: jasonspiro@gmail.com Received: by 10.141.131.8 with SMTP id i8mr6599389rvn.90.1261526281072; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 15:58:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B3159C7.9040309@FreeBSD.org> References: <4B3159C7.9040309@FreeBSD.org> From: "Jason A. Spiro" Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:57:41 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5907ca053e5d96e1 Message-ID: To: Doug Barton Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:58:01 -0000 On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > Seriously, it's not our problem if solaris did something stupid. Actually, it looks like the mistake was made by Linux and FreeBSD developers. SunOS had[1] killall in 1992, and maybe earlier. Craig said the earliest copyright date on Linux killall is 1994. I think FreeBSD killall is newer than 1994, since its manpage says that it was modeled after the killall included with other OSes. I think this must mean Linux. When Linux and FreeBSD made their kill-selected-processes command, they shouldn't've called it killALL. But mistakes happen. Luckily, mistakes can be corrected. > There > is no hope whatsoever that you're going to get every Unix that has a > rational 'killall' command to change, so can we please drop this thread? It's never too late to change something for the better. Xorg finally set Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to be disabled by default about a year ago, to prevent accidental data loss by newbies. Some people agree with this, some people disagree, but the change is done. So it would have been better to write "There is little hope, so can we please drop this thread?" instead. ^ [1]. http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/817-0708/6mgg6t7gv?a=view From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 00:00:06 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2FC106566B for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:00:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx21.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 407878FC1C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:00:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 13797 invoked by uid 399); 23 Dec 2009 00:00:05 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 23 Dec 2009 00:00:05 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B315D88.4060603@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 16:00:08 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason A. Spiro" References: <4B3159C7.9040309@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:00:06 -0000 Jason A. Spiro wrote: > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Doug Barton wrote: >> There >> is no hope whatsoever that you're going to get every Unix that has a >> rational 'killall' command to change, so can we please drop this thread? > > It's never too late to change something for the better. And yet there is ZERO interest in changing this in FreeBSD. Why don't you start working on the various linux distros instead, and report back here with your results. Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 00:21:46 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D7651065672 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:21:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from lo.gmane.org (lo.gmane.org [80.91.229.12]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB31D8FC12 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:21:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1NNEz1-0006xk-Vq for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:21:44 +0100 Received: from CPE00134609fbfb-CM0013718690da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com ([99.226.150.73]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:21:43 +0100 Received: from jasonspiro4 by CPE00134609fbfb-CM0013718690da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:21:43 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Jason Spiro Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:21:20 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <4B315A5A.6040101@delphij.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 99.226.150.73 (Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.0.13) Gecko/2009080717 Firefox/3.0.13) Sender: news Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:21:46 -0000 Xin LI delphij.net> writes: > killall can be used by scripts which just works in the past, and will > never notice the warnings. On what scripts will nobody notice the warnings? For example, AFAIK, cron job output is always mailed to root. The only scripts I can think of are scripts called by web applications like PHP, and I can't think of any concrete case where they would run killall. > Also, killall is not "that" dangerous on > FreeBSD, we should ONLY give warnings when it's really necessary, > otherwise users would just ignore all warnings we gave to them. > > On the other hand, it seems to us that warning messages won't work, no > matter how long we give it, it is being ignored by a majority of users. Good points. > Then users are already familiar with FreeBSD would have to learn what > "fkill" is, and after all, having them to pay for mistakes made by > commercial Unix vendors does not seem to be a fair option. As I wrote elsewhere[1] in this thread, it seems to me the commercial vendors made no mistakes here; only Linux and FreeBSD made mistakes. > Well, I'd say it's too late for us to change since it's several years > after we have 'killall' our way. I replied to this in the last paragraph of text in [1]. > pkill have '-I', at least on FreeBSD... There is no such option in pkill on Linux.[2] ^ [1]. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.os.freebsd.devel.hackers/38308/focus=38332 ^ [2]. http://linux.die.net/man/1/pkill From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 00:24:27 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4FDD1065679; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:24:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jasonspiro@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f185.google.com (mail-pz0-f185.google.com [209.85.222.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FBA38FC12; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:24:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pzk15 with SMTP id 15so4579942pzk.3 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 16:24:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; bh=5K+AzhpixGNGfZ537ZiwOfY03OmMaBS1N75lDvujV90=; b=WoCPZ9lbaC4CBLgnr+1aXIU8dwqqMbqecRYSHHblUVS9iS5Z+IQtmEHp5UaXxwaPA4 uqElk9+5cFJMWl8bQQSqFG9nM8MRwACD8/JtBT8gbiRZAgCT40sc4Zrk1QsdtnvbKaSp bf9mkM+bVOEMfgJfq3rwybV/LVFRlWccAiM9k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; b=h4+8jJ3OdJktO3iXdslIORHan9C5qQ3oQ462kuaLsIdjS9x+50C3AJPfyMgrIztFlH Y3rpHPKZyjX0q5MZR5xLHsbreJH7XmN+m5qf7w2aWeL2bgd06H3uSfja4r1ARjpzWzu6 yenmBk9TmPrzyrtnYMtHQYxnyRALtm23mUd2s= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: jasonspiro@gmail.com Received: by 10.141.101.13 with SMTP id d13mr6701554rvm.120.1261527867088; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 16:24:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B315D88.4060603@FreeBSD.org> References: <4B3159C7.9040309@FreeBSD.org> <4B315D88.4060603@FreeBSD.org> From: "Jason A. Spiro" Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:24:07 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 48496f716d1de680 Message-ID: To: Doug Barton Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Craig Small Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:24:27 -0000 On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 7:00 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > And yet there is ZERO interest in changing this in FreeBSD. As you can see elsewhere in this thread, I am discussing it with Xin. So far, both he and the Linux killall maintainer have said "no", but I am using rational arguments to try to convince each of them. I await their next replies. > Why don't > you start working on the various linux distros instead, and report > back here with your results. All the Linux distros use the same killall, maintained by Craig Small. I don't know when he got de-CC'ed from this thread. I have re-added him to the CC field in this message. And it seems to me that neither NetBSD or OpenBSD ship with a killall utility, so there is no need to change such a thing as this in those OSes. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 00:41:42 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C1DF1065698 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:41:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org (delphij-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:2c9::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0409D8FC16 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:41:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.geekcn.org (tarsier.geekcn.org [211.166.10.233]) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94FFBA5A238; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:41:31 +0800 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at geekcn.org Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org ([211.166.10.233]) by mail.geekcn.org (mail.geekcn.org [211.166.10.233]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id zoilOr5bZJ3t; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:41:13 +0800 (CST) Received: from delta.delphij.net (drawbridge.ixsystems.com [206.40.55.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AE677A5A123; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:41:11 +0800 (CST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=default; d=delphij.net; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:organization:user-agent: mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lRekTKIszDiJd3T4IRwL6D5w1A9hyI/UFJpxms61vNLYMb1EaZgGOnQ7VuW/Y5i2h BUyuTUoqaFIcSeNQGZeHg== Message-ID: <4B31671C.8090005@delphij.net> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 16:41:00 -0800 From: Xin LI Organization: The Geek China Organization User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD amd64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.5) Gecko/20091220 Thunderbird/3.0 ThunderBrowse/3.2.6.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <4B315A5A.6040101@delphij.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: d@delphij.net List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:41:42 -0000 On 2009/12/22 16:21, Jason Spiro wrote: > Xin LI delphij.net> writes: > >> killall can be used by scripts which just works in the past, and will >> never notice the warnings. > > On what scripts will nobody notice the warnings? For example, AFAIK, cron job > output is always mailed to root. The only scripts I can think of are scripts > called by web applications like PHP, and I can't think of any concrete case > where they would run killall. killall is used for instance, shutdown scripts. Yes you get the warning message on your console but not the remote ssh. [...] >> Then users are already familiar with FreeBSD would have to learn what >> "fkill" is, and after all, having them to pay for mistakes made by >> commercial Unix vendors does not seem to be a fair option. > > As I wrote elsewhere[1] in this thread, it seems to me the commercial vendors > made no mistakes here; only Linux and FreeBSD made mistakes. I think we can hardly call it a 'mistake'. Having a command that do the same thing what shutdown(8) should do doesn't seem to be the Unix way to do things. Speaking about commercial vendor, Mac OS X have the same killall as FreeBSD have. Granted, Mac OS X is not something we consider as traditional Unix, but it's certificated as Unix operating system after all. >> Well, I'd say it's too late for us to change since it's several years >> after we have 'killall' our way. > > I replied to this in the last paragraph of text in [1]. It's way too late to say something a "mistake" after about 15 years. I think it might be reasonable to document the System V behavior and how to do the same thing on FreeBSD in killall's manual page, but I'm afraid that's all we can do nowadays, since FreeBSD users are already get used with our killall behavior, changing the behavior/semantics after ten years just make a mess, so please drop this. >> pkill have '-I', at least on FreeBSD... > > There is no such option in pkill on Linux.[2] Please talk with the authors of Linux pkill. In open source world a well written patch would say more than a thousand of sayings. Cheers, -- Xin LI http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! Live free or die From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 02:34:12 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5181A106566B for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 02:34:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mel.flynn+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net) Received: from mailhub.rachie.is-a-geek.net (rachie.is-a-geek.net [66.230.99.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A438FC0C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 02:34:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smoochies.rachie.is-a-geek.net (mailhub.rachie.is-a-geek.net [192.168.2.11]) by mailhub.rachie.is-a-geek.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C1017E818 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:34:11 -0900 (AKST) From: Mel Flynn To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:34:05 -0900 User-Agent: KMail/1.12.1 (FreeBSD/8.0-STABLE; KDE/4.3.1; i386; ; ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200912221734.05795.mel.flynn+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net> Subject: Jail on 2 interfaces? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 02:34:12 -0000 Hi, I don't see this documented in jail(8) nor rc(8) nor defaults/rc.conf, so is it possible to have 2 IP's on 2 ethernet interfaces? And if so, is it settable for rc(8)? The usage case is to have the same jailed proxy server on two seperate internal networks. Ideally, the proxy will use one address for outgoing, so I guess I'll need a default route or dive into the squid config. At present I have: ifconfig_bge0="inet 192.168.177.60 netmask 255.255.255.0" ifconfig_em0="inet 192.168.176.60 netmask 255.255.255.0" ifconfig_em0_alias0="inet 192.168.176.62 netmask 255.255.255.255" jail_squid_rootdir="/usr/squid" jail_squid_ip="192.168.177.62" jail_squid_ip_multi0="192.168.176.62" jail_squid_interface="bge0" But this created the IP on bge0 even though one exists on em0. Is it as simple as not specifying the interface and add the 177.62 alias on bge0? Ideally I'd have a jail_$jail_ip_multi$aliasno_interface="foo0", but my main worry is that the jail infrastructure understands the routing involved. -- Mel From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 03:40:17 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64B191065670 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:40:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx21.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3F88FC08 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:40:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 5101 invoked by uid 399); 23 Dec 2009 03:40:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.0.110?) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 23 Dec 2009 03:40:16 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B31911E.3070905@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:40:14 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason A. Spiro" References: <4B3159C7.9040309@FreeBSD.org> <4B315D88.4060603@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Craig Small Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:40:17 -0000 Jason A. Spiro wrote: > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 7:00 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > >> And yet there is ZERO interest in changing this in FreeBSD. > > As you can see elsewhere in this thread, I am discussing it with Xin. > So far, both he and the Linux killall maintainer have said "no", but I > am using rational arguments to try to convince each of them. I await > their next replies. Sounds like you have your bases covered, so there is no reason to involve the list any further. Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 09:06:46 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 706EA106566C for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:06:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (gate6.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8DFD8FC0A for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:06:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id nBN96dwD091722; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:06:41 GMT (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.3 smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk nBN96dwD091722 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=infracaninophile.co.uk; s=200708; t=1261559201; bh=yVk1e6hsmrqZ6dwz6VAWZPr5KZIV6yvxBzMrui/DULw=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Cc:Content-Type:Date:From:In-Reply-To: Message-ID:Mime-Version:References:To; z=Message-ID:=20<4B31DD99.7000103@infracaninophile.co.uk>|Date:=20W ed,=2023=20Dec=202009=2009:06:33=20+0000|From:=20Matthew=20Seaman= 20|Organization:=20Infracaninophi le|User-Agent:=20Thunderbird=202.0.0.23=20(X11/20091129)|MIME-Vers ion:=201.0|To:=20Mel=20Flynn=20|CC:=20freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org|Subject:=20Re:=20Jail =20on=202=20interfaces?|References:=20<200912221734.05795.mel.flyn n+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net>|In-Reply-To:=20<200912221734. 05795.mel.flynn+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net>|X-Enigmail-Vers ion:=200.95.6|Content-Type:=20multipart/signed=3B=20micalg=3Dpgp-s ha256=3B=0D=0A=20protocol=3D"application/pgp-signature"=3B=0D=0A=2 0boundary=3D"------------enig865684A9E1C3B9922A02A608"; b=YNBqVAbroOYziY6dtc6C3JV/GVzN8jHw9/0uO1DDz7g9sqRphUFRvPXwSNPFfJCv8 Sqaj2SiaRghAKh0NLrddjoxKbvzp4y8CA7bEiw711nygQC27u1K15HFJXk/zOvI2Lg 1svJCgXyfa09a7gXH0BiqxZHUMeq0K5jWhPCmVA0= X-Authentication-Warning: happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk: Host localhost [IPv6:::1] claimed to be happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk Message-ID: <4B31DD99.7000103@infracaninophile.co.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:06:33 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman Organization: Infracaninophile User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091129) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mel Flynn References: <200912221734.05795.mel.flynn+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net> In-Reply-To: <200912221734.05795.mel.flynn+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig865684A9E1C3B9922A02A608" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VERIFIED,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Jail on 2 interfaces? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:06:46 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig865684A9E1C3B9922A02A608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mel Flynn wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I don't see this documented in jail(8) nor rc(8) nor defaults/rc.conf, = so is=20 > it possible to have 2 IP's on 2 ethernet interfaces? And if so, is it s= ettable=20 > for rc(8)? >=20 > The usage case is to have the same jailed proxy server on two seperate = > internal networks. Ideally, the proxy will use one address for outgoing= , so I=20 > guess I'll need a default route or dive into the squid config. >=20 > At present I have: > ifconfig_bge0=3D"inet 192.168.177.60 netmask 255.255.255.0" > ifconfig_em0=3D"inet 192.168.176.60 netmask 255.255.255.0" > ifconfig_em0_alias0=3D"inet 192.168.176.62 netmask 255.255.255.255" > jail_squid_rootdir=3D"/usr/squid" > jail_squid_ip=3D"192.168.177.62" > jail_squid_ip_multi0=3D"192.168.176.62" > jail_squid_interface=3D"bge0" >=20 > But this created the IP on bge0 even though one exists on em0. Is it as= simple=20 > as not specifying the interface and add the 177.62 alias on bge0? > Ideally I'd have a jail_$jail_ip_multi$aliasno_interface=3D"foo0", but = my main=20 > worry is that the jail infrastructure understands the routing involved.= To do this directly is now possible in 8.0-RELEASE or better. You will need a custom kernel with 'options VIMAGE' and I believe the standard jai= l startup scripts need a bit of work in order for them to start the jail wi= th the correct command line arguments to enable the vnet functionality. Note that vnet is /experimental/. It may eat your homework and blame it = on your dog. It is also known not to work yet with various subsystems which= =20 haven't had the necessary recoding to understand the new kernel structure= s. Probably the most significant missing bit is pf(4). Alternatively, you can achieve much the same effect that you want by usin= g a simple one-ip jail and writing firewall rules to redirect traffic into = it, and NAT traffic coming out of it. Cheers, Matthew --=20 Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW --------------enig865684A9E1C3B9922A02A608 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.13 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREIAAYFAksx3Z8ACgkQ8Mjk52CukIwYBQCgiHrO5pslu2nIGkwO+2Npfdru lroAoIgPGtFO7l90I0PmsMTbD5zu2mfh =Yaeq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig865684A9E1C3B9922A02A608-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 10:20:08 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60FB91065676; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:20:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from mail.cksoft.de (mail.cksoft.de [IPv6:2001:4068:10::3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3908FC1E; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:20:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (amavis.fra.cksoft.de [192.168.74.71]) by mail.cksoft.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF7B41C707; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:20:06 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at cksoft.de Received: from mail.cksoft.de ([192.168.74.103]) by localhost (amavis.fra.cksoft.de [192.168.74.71]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EYgba+EvCISV; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:20:05 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.cksoft.de (Postfix, from userid 66) id CC30941C6DB; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:20:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net (maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net [10.111.66.10]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.int.zabbadoz.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BDAA4448EC; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:19:23 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:19:23 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" X-X-Sender: bz@maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net To: Mel Flynn In-Reply-To: <200912221734.05795.mel.flynn+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net> Message-ID: <20091223100943.T86040@maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net> References: <200912221734.05795.mel.flynn+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net> X-OpenPGP-Key: 0x14003F198FEFA3E77207EE8D2B58B8F83CCF1842 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-jail@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Jail on 2 interfaces? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-jail@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:20:08 -0000 On Tue, 22 Dec 2009, Mel Flynn wrote: Hi, first of all this would find more people to help on freebsd-jail as it has nothing to do with hackers ;-) > I don't see this documented in jail(8) nor rc(8) nor defaults/rc.conf, so is > it possible to have 2 IP's on 2 ethernet interfaces? And if so, is it settable > for rc(8)? > > The usage case is to have the same jailed proxy server on two seperate > internal networks. Ideally, the proxy will use one address for outgoing, so I > guess I'll need a default route or dive into the squid config. > > At present I have: > ifconfig_bge0="inet 192.168.177.60 netmask 255.255.255.0" > ifconfig_em0="inet 192.168.176.60 netmask 255.255.255.0" > ifconfig_em0_alias0="inet 192.168.176.62 netmask 255.255.255.255" > jail_squid_rootdir="/usr/squid" > jail_squid_ip="192.168.177.62" > jail_squid_ip_multi0="192.168.176.62" > jail_squid_interface="bge0" > > But this created the IP on bge0 even though one exists on em0. Is it as simple > as not specifying the interface and add the 177.62 alias on bge0? > Ideally I'd have a jail_$jail_ip_multi$aliasno_interface="foo0", but my main > worry is that the jail infrastructure understands the routing involved. >From what you are writing I assume that you are on FreeBSD 7.2-Release or later; no official FreeBSD version before had supported multiple-IPs with a jail. What it did was what you were asking for. That's the problem. 1) either use ifconfig 2) or use jail + interfaces 3) but do not mix them (especially not overlapping) So I would suggest to do it like this: # Base system IPs. ifconfig_bge0="inet 192.168.177.60/24" ifconfig_em0="inet 192.168.176.60/24" jail_squid_rootdir="/usr/squid" # Either use: jail_squid_ip="bge0|192.168.177.62/32,em0|192.168.176.62/32" # or: jail_squid_ip="bge0|192.168.177.62/32" jail_squid_ip_multi0="em0|192.168.176.62/32" but do not use jail_squid_interface=".." as that will be a global default for that jail. As you can see, I removed the ifconfig_em0_alias0 line. If you want to keep that and mix things then you could do: jail_squid_ip="bge0|192.168.177.62/32" jail_squid_ip_multi0="192.168.176.62/32" again without the jail_squid_interface=".." line. HTH /bz -- Bjoern A. Zeeb It will not break if you know what you are doing. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 10:25:07 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A10E7106566B; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:25:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from mail.cksoft.de (mail.cksoft.de [IPv6:2001:4068:10::3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2498A8FC1A; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:25:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (amavis.fra.cksoft.de [192.168.74.71]) by mail.cksoft.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 431C041C798; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:25:06 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at cksoft.de Received: from mail.cksoft.de ([192.168.74.103]) by localhost (amavis.fra.cksoft.de [192.168.74.71]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SLS1sM7A9ESl; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:25:05 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.cksoft.de (Postfix, from userid 66) id AC80041C796; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:25:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net (maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net [10.111.66.10]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.int.zabbadoz.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2438F4448EC; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:24:43 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:24:43 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" X-X-Sender: bz@maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net To: Matthew Seaman In-Reply-To: <4B31DD99.7000103@infracaninophile.co.uk> Message-ID: <20091223101938.J86040@maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net> References: <200912221734.05795.mel.flynn+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net> <4B31DD99.7000103@infracaninophile.co.uk> X-OpenPGP-Key: 0x14003F198FEFA3E77207EE8D2B58B8F83CCF1842 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Mel Flynn , freebsd-jail@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Jail on 2 interfaces? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-jail@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:25:07 -0000 On Wed, 23 Dec 2009, Matthew Seaman wrote: > Mel Flynn wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I don't see this documented in jail(8) nor rc(8) nor defaults/rc.conf, so >> is it possible to have 2 IP's on 2 ethernet interfaces? And if so, is it >> settable for rc(8)? >> >> The usage case is to have the same jailed proxy server on two seperate >> internal networks. Ideally, the proxy will use one address for outgoing, so >> I guess I'll need a default route or dive into the squid config. >> >> At present I have: >> ifconfig_bge0="inet 192.168.177.60 netmask 255.255.255.0" >> ifconfig_em0="inet 192.168.176.60 netmask 255.255.255.0" >> ifconfig_em0_alias0="inet 192.168.176.62 netmask 255.255.255.255" >> jail_squid_rootdir="/usr/squid" >> jail_squid_ip="192.168.177.62" >> jail_squid_ip_multi0="192.168.176.62" >> jail_squid_interface="bge0" >> >> But this created the IP on bge0 even though one exists on em0. Is it as >> simple as not specifying the interface and add the 177.62 alias on bge0? >> Ideally I'd have a jail_$jail_ip_multi$aliasno_interface="foo0", but my >> main worry is that the jail infrastructure understands the routing >> involved. > > To do this directly is now possible in 8.0-RELEASE or better. You will > need a custom kernel with 'options VIMAGE' and I believe the standard jail > startup scripts need a bit of work in order for them to start the jail with > the correct command line arguments to enable the vnet functionality. No, that's wrong. FreeBSD 7.2-R and later can do multi-IP jails and have the IPs on multiple interfaces; there is no need for a dedicated network stack. The routing is no much different than if you would do it in the base system with two IPs. if it works there, just putting it in a multi-IP jail with the adresses on the right interface will just work as well. If you want different routing for a jail use setfib with a multi-FIB based kernel (you may need to recompile the kernel for that) but you still won't need mutliple network stacks. > Alternatively, you can achieve much the same effect that you want by using > a simple one-ip jail and writing firewall rules to redirect traffic into it, > and NAT traffic coming out of it. Using firewall NAT with jails is something I often see and usually never understand unless people only have a single IP and want to share that between lots of jails (though if not duplicate services exist, that will just work as well by default these days as well). -- Bjoern A. Zeeb It will not break if you know what you are doing. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 15:37:17 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AABBC1065695 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:37:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mel.flynn+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net) Received: from mailhub.rachie.is-a-geek.net (rachie.is-a-geek.net [66.230.99.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303E08FC19 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:37:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smoochies.rachie.is-a-geek.net (mailhub.rachie.is-a-geek.net [192.168.2.11]) by mailhub.rachie.is-a-geek.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6CEE7E818; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:37:15 -0900 (AKST) From: Mel Flynn To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-jail@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:37:10 -0900 User-Agent: KMail/1.12.1 (FreeBSD/8.0-STABLE; KDE/4.3.1; i386; ; ) References: <200912221734.05795.mel.flynn+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net> <20091223100943.T86040@maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net> In-Reply-To: <20091223100943.T86040@maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200912230637.10093.mel.flynn+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net> Cc: Subject: Re: Jail on 2 interfaces? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:37:17 -0000 On Wednesday 23 December 2009 01:19:23 Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: > On Tue, 22 Dec 2009, Mel Flynn wrote: > > Hi, > > first of all this would find more people to help on freebsd-jail as it > has nothing to do with hackers ;-) Yes, that was pretty braindead of me, especially since the intention was questions@. > > I don't see this documented in jail(8) nor rc(8) nor defaults/rc.conf, so > > is it possible to have 2 IP's on 2 ethernet interfaces? And if so, is it > > settable for rc(8)? > > > > The usage case is to have the same jailed proxy server on two seperate > > internal networks. Ideally, the proxy will use one address for outgoing, > > so I guess I'll need a default route or dive into the squid config. > > > > At present I have: > > ifconfig_bge0="inet 192.168.177.60 netmask 255.255.255.0" > > ifconfig_em0="inet 192.168.176.60 netmask 255.255.255.0" > > ifconfig_em0_alias0="inet 192.168.176.62 netmask 255.255.255.255" > > jail_squid_rootdir="/usr/squid" > > jail_squid_ip="192.168.177.62" > > jail_squid_ip_multi0="192.168.176.62" > > jail_squid_interface="bge0" > > > > But this created the IP on bge0 even though one exists on em0. Is it as > > simple as not specifying the interface and add the 177.62 alias on bge0? > > Ideally I'd have a jail_$jail_ip_multi$aliasno_interface="foo0", but my > > main worry is that the jail infrastructure understands the routing > > involved. > > > >From what you are writing I assume that you are on FreeBSD 7.2-Release > > or later; no official FreeBSD version before had supported > multiple-IPs with a jail. 8.0-p3, yes. > What it did was what you were asking for. That's the problem. > > 1) either use ifconfig > 2) or use jail + interfaces > 3) but do not mix them (especially not overlapping) > > So I would suggest to do it like this: > > # Base system IPs. > ifconfig_bge0="inet 192.168.177.60/24" > ifconfig_em0="inet 192.168.176.60/24" > > jail_squid_rootdir="/usr/squid" > # Either use: > jail_squid_ip="bge0|192.168.177.62/32,em0|192.168.176.62/32" > # or: > jail_squid_ip="bge0|192.168.177.62/32" > jail_squid_ip_multi0="em0|192.168.176.62/32" > > but do not use jail_squid_interface=".." as that will be a global > default for that jail. Is it a global *default* or a global? For example, could I specify: jail_squid_interface="bge0" jail_squid_ip="192.168.177.62/32" jail_squid_ip_multi0="192.168.177.63/32" jail_squid_ip_multi1="em0|192.168.177.62/32" Below is a patch against HEAD to document the $interface|$ip syntax. -- Mel Index: etc/defaults/rc.conf =================================================================== --- etc/defaults/rc.conf (revision 200901) +++ etc/defaults/rc.conf (working copy) @@ -648,6 +648,7 @@ #jail_example_fib="0" # Routing table for setfib(1) #jail_example_ip="192.0.2.10,2001:db8::17" # Jail's primary IPv4 and IPv6 address #jail_example_ip_multi0="2001:db8::10" # and another IPv6 address +#jail_example_ip_multi1="em0|192.0.3.10/32" # and another IPv4 address on a specific interface #jail_example_exec_start="/bin/sh /etc/rc" # command to execute in jail for starting #jail_example_exec_afterstart0="/bin/sh command" # command to execute after the one for # starting the jail. More than one can be From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 16:10:08 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21EB910656B6; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:10:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from mail.cksoft.de (mail.cksoft.de [IPv6:2001:4068:10::3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74D48FC16; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:10:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (amavis.fra.cksoft.de [192.168.74.71]) by mail.cksoft.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9490F41C712; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 17:10:06 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at cksoft.de Received: from mail.cksoft.de ([192.168.74.103]) by localhost (amavis.fra.cksoft.de [192.168.74.71]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jYCwPovX3tc6; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 17:10:06 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.cksoft.de (Postfix, from userid 66) id 1C8EC41C707; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 17:10:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net (maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net [10.111.66.10]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.int.zabbadoz.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D06DC4448EC; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:06:50 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:06:50 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" X-X-Sender: bz@maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net To: Mel Flynn In-Reply-To: <200912230637.10093.mel.flynn+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net> Message-ID: <20091223160221.R86040@maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net> References: <200912221734.05795.mel.flynn+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net> <20091223100943.T86040@maildrop.int.zabbadoz.net> <200912230637.10093.mel.flynn+fbsd.hackers@mailing.thruhere.net> X-OpenPGP-Key: 0x14003F198FEFA3E77207EE8D2B58B8F83CCF1842 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-jail@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Jail on 2 interfaces? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:10:08 -0000 On Wed, 23 Dec 2009, Mel Flynn wrote: >> or later; no official FreeBSD version before had supported >> multiple-IPs with a jail. > > 8.0-p3, yes. ok >> What it did was what you were asking for. That's the problem. >> >> 1) either use ifconfig >> 2) or use jail + interfaces >> 3) but do not mix them (especially not overlapping) >> >> So I would suggest to do it like this: >> >> # Base system IPs. >> ifconfig_bge0="inet 192.168.177.60/24" >> ifconfig_em0="inet 192.168.176.60/24" >> >> jail_squid_rootdir="/usr/squid" >> # Either use: >> jail_squid_ip="bge0|192.168.177.62/32,em0|192.168.176.62/32" >> # or: >> jail_squid_ip="bge0|192.168.177.62/32" >> jail_squid_ip_multi0="em0|192.168.176.62/32" >> >> but do not use jail_squid_interface=".." as that will be a global >> default for that jail. > > Is it a global *default* or a global? For example, could I specify: It's a global default; a more specific interface name that comes with an address will override it. So you could do what you drafted below. The entire "ifconfig" feature in rc.d/jail does not really belong there but people started using it after it was introduced so we lost that race. > jail_squid_interface="bge0" > jail_squid_ip="192.168.177.62/32" > jail_squid_ip_multi0="192.168.177.63/32" > jail_squid_ip_multi1="em0|192.168.177.62/32" > > Below is a patch against HEAD to document the $interface|$ip syntax. That wasn't done on purpose; man rc.conf has it, if you lookup jail__ip . /bz -- Bjoern A. Zeeb It will not break if you know what you are doing. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 15:52:40 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E0FE10656A5 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:52:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from arikapwr@gmail.com) Received: from ey-out-2122.google.com (ey-out-2122.google.com [74.125.78.26]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F9E8FC1E for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:52:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ey-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 4so1858360eyf.9 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 07:52:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YCurCtKR6yUiQoRtZr2h/IKdJMWTfcuXIOTC5nIcTuI=; b=jgA5ZWFC7EenkOr6jXEWd+g1k1W4u1X5/5pD/HQGAE3Zne07niLt2bZiRwt+AKKGVh O2Y0m0cnDxEDoVGjLq6FStsXZ7GMnbn1NzmMDXZIY+DdNug+sCNUiCC1UNKHdpm62YRF j+R6OChcNsNgTQsGx6m52CkgCWI5coohp3NtY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=U8nRRJhU5xu8rPPOLmWiDdyN48rxaNWZkmloYup7zwcpPGOZZdKS4N9IKR0XVSGPZK V/HrGKSpT49g6zTwGtlX3F/rtNT3aWC9ocFmH3md5RBZkse/GZ1JtrbCneAt2gnTEWhV wLiiCwv49CBNj3uc1i6o1SBZDNh21uEqXMmcE= Received: by 10.213.0.139 with SMTP id 11mr1506147ebb.86.1261582051485; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 07:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.33? (106.Red-79-147-146.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net [79.147.146.106]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 13sm5204187ewy.1.2009.12.23.07.27.29 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 23 Dec 2009 07:27:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B3236F9.60005@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:27:53 +0100 From: Daniel Tordable User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Montgomery-Smith References: <4B311165.4020800@missouri.edu> In-Reply-To: <4B311165.4020800@missouri.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:18:25 +0000 Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Suggestion: rename "killall" to "fkill", but wait five years to phase the new name in X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:52:40 -0000 Stephen Montgomery-Smith escribió: > I would like to introduce a program into the base called > "screw-the-whole-system." It would do something like this: > > while true; do \ > echo "Please wait while your system is being destroyed..." > sleep 10 > done > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Why not adding regexp functionality to our killall in order just to do root # killall * System is going down INMEDIATELY and then forget about the "shutdown" command to save some KiB of space? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 21:29:52 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70BF1065692 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:29:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@m.gmane.org) Received: from lo.gmane.org (lo.gmane.org [80.91.229.12]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EBF18FC1B for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:29:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1NNYmD-0008KS-4M for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 22:29:49 +0100 Received: from CPE00134609fbfb-CM0013718690da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com ([99.226.150.73]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 22:29:49 +0100 Received: from jasonspiro4 by CPE00134609fbfb-CM0013718690da.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 22:29:49 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Jason Spiro Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:29:21 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <4B315A5A.6040101@delphij.net> <4B31671C.8090005@delphij.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 99.226.150.73 (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; fr; rv:1.9.0.15) Gecko/2009102918 CentOS/3.0.15-3.el5.centos Firefox/3.0.15) Sender: news Subject: Renaming "killall" and forever symlinking the old name to the new name (was: Suggestion: rename ...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:29:52 -0000 Xin LI delphij.net> writes: > killall is used for instance, shutdown scripts. Yes you get the warning > message on your console but not the remote ssh. [snip] > It's way too late to say something a "mistake" after about 15 years. [snip] > FreeBSD users are already get used > with our killall behavior, changing the behavior/semantics after ten > years just make a mess, so please drop this. [snip] > Please talk with the authors of Linux pkill. In open source world a > well written patch would say more than a thousand of sayings. Xin, I've already sent a message to the authors of Linux pkill suggesting that. :) Dear Xin and everyone else: Your messages, and the other messages that other people have posted in this thread, are full of good points. I'm now convinced that my original idea is not worthwhile. Thank you all for your replies. Less than an hour ago, I've thought of another idea: You could rename killall to something else, and update the manpage to show the new name, then symlink or hard link "killall" to the new name forever. This would encourage people to use the new name, but it would never force them to. Xin, what do you think? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 23 22:15:25 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DDBA1065672 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 22:15:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jilles@stack.nl) Received: from mx1.stack.nl (relay02.stack.nl [IPv6:2001:610:1108:5010::104]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C2E8FC13 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 22:15:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from toad.stack.nl (toad.stack.nl [IPv6:2001:610:1108:5010::135]) by mx1.stack.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F4DB35A841 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 23:15:24 +0100 (CET) Received: by toad.stack.nl (Postfix, from userid 1677) id 4989573F9F; Wed, 23 Dec 2009 23:15:24 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 23:15:24 +0100 From: Jilles Tjoelker To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20091223221524.GA68650@stack.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Subject: why does _PATH_STDPATH contain the current directory? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 22:15:25 -0000 /usr/include/paths.h has: /* All standard utilities path. */ #define _PATH_STDPATH "/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:" The current directory appears to have been added accidentally years ago. Can I go ahead and take it out (the colon)? The paths for rescue already do not have the current directory. The main use for _PATH_STDPATH is to find all standard utilities, such as for the POSIX-specified confstr(_CS_PATH), 'getconf PATH' and 'command -p'. Some utilities also use it instead of _PATH_DEFPATH for root, but these values tend to be overridden by /etc/login.conf and/or shell startup files. -- Jilles Tjoelker From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 24 10:25:38 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2FA1065749 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:25:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yassinegtr4@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f227.google.com (mail-fx0-f227.google.com [209.85.220.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EDF88FC18 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:25:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxm27 with SMTP id 27so8213648fxm.3 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 02:25:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=EM7jNzm91LW81Q9a1JH4OplCExShLOdUsGKdP0GW+Wk=; b=NssG1walZDdBjYHTalCG8mofs/IL6p0nur8JnRZg7wq6uxSI/VTJ4xsQV2gxOlftZl LVnNIGT2nUKg/0lDpHWYRdFNr/kPDlfXwZpMuYf11Aay9NDvjUBj0UtFge45Mc8kF1Ls tLIrgdvzVJc1aQZDP3nEjG50phB8g2RSix5w8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id :subject:to:content-type; b=ixCaomgKDrN/0lW8H6Wv6rd5AmDAQCuQyFhpT9Ock++GeCdW9deBR6EjskReReCFvk 1LeR7jZQm6kPxI9JC6Z/40wnaBndOHeMXkgLdDy9BQFZtkwazCesJBln18sp6+cRXwu+ L8XSIeOdy7/tekWBi0M0kOp/aD8iQrQlmNgDI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: yassinegtr4@gmail.com Received: by 10.239.160.84 with SMTP id b20mr1179936hbd.124.1261648892219; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 02:01:32 -0800 (PST) From: yassine ayachi Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:01:12 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7ffdcfeec2f2760b Message-ID: <37fcc4580912240201sca6a623ma7d387f01ca5f786@mail.gmail.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: HA on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:25:38 -0000 Hi all , In order to improve my firewall architecture, I installed on my two firewalls that are on linux the platforme HAProxy-Heartbeat-BRBD, now I wan= t to improve it further by installing the same thing on freebsd, I installed haproxy and hearbeat without problem, but there is no DRBD support on freeBSD, I googled and found geom with ggated/ggatec with freevrrpd for virtual ip support, I tried to setup this but it does not work, here is a summary of what I'm doing : Slave IP : 10.42.6.156 Mester IP : 10.42.6.158 1-slave# ggated -v 2-master# ggatec create 10.42.6.156 /dev/da0s1d master# (This command is suposed to return the device node name. something like =E2=80=98ggate0=E2=80=B2, but nothing in my case.) 3-output on the slave machine looks like this : slave# bginfo: Connection from: 10.42.6.158. debug: Receiving version packet. debug: Version packet received. debug: Receiving initial packet. debug: Initial packet received. debug: Connection created [10.42.6.158, /dev/da0s1d]. debug: New connection created (token=3D2554515407). debug: exports[/dev/da0s1d]: IP mismatch. warning: Unauthorized connection from: 10.42.6.158. debug: Connection removed [10.42.6.158 /dev/da0s1d]. warning: Cannot send initial packet: Bad file descriptor. Thanks in advance you for any help you give me :) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 24 12:06:47 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1726106568F for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:06:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail25@bzerk.org) Received: from ei.bzerk.org (tunnel490.ipv6.xs4all.nl [IPv6:2001:888:10:1ea::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465A38FC12 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:06:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ei.bzerk.org (BOFH@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ei.bzerk.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id nBOC5aUd001866; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:05:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mail25@bzerk.org) Received: (from bulk@localhost) by ei.bzerk.org (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id nBOC5Z3s001865; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:05:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mail25@bzerk.org) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:05:35 +0100 From: Ruben de Groot To: yassine ayachi Message-ID: <20091224120535.GA1786@ei.bzerk.org> Mail-Followup-To: Ruben de Groot , yassine ayachi , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <37fcc4580912240201sca6a623ma7d387f01ca5f786@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <37fcc4580912240201sca6a623ma7d387f01ca5f786@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, J_CHICKENPOX_27 autolearn=no version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on ei.bzerk.org X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0.1 (ei.bzerk.org [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:06:46 +0100 (CET) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:27:27 +0000 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HA on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:06:47 -0000 On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 10:01:12AM +0000, yassine ayachi typed: > Hi all , > > In order to improve my firewall architecture, I installed on my two > firewalls that are on linux the platforme HAProxy-Heartbeat-BRBD, now I want > to improve it further by installing the same thing on freebsd, > > I installed haproxy and hearbeat without problem, but there is no DRBD > support on freeBSD, There will be, hopefully Real Soon Now. http://www.freebsdnews.net/2009/10/23/new-freebsd-project-hast/ > I googled and found geom with ggated/ggatec with freevrrpd for virtual ip > support, I tried to setup this but it does not work, here is a summary of > what I'm doing : > > Slave IP : 10.42.6.156 > Mester IP : 10.42.6.158 > > 1-slave# ggated -v > > 2-master# ggatec create 10.42.6.156 /dev/da0s1d > master# > (This command is suposed to return the device node name. something like > ???ggate0???, but nothing in my case.) > > 3-output on the slave machine looks like this : > slave# bginfo: Connection from: 10.42.6.158. > debug: Receiving version packet. > debug: Version packet received. > debug: Receiving initial packet. > debug: Initial packet received. > debug: Connection created [10.42.6.158, /dev/da0s1d]. > debug: New connection created (token=2554515407). > debug: exports[/dev/da0s1d]: IP mismatch. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ There's your problem. Check the IP addresses in your gg.exports file. Ruben > warning: Unauthorized connection from: 10.42.6.158. > debug: Connection removed [10.42.6.158 /dev/da0s1d]. > warning: Cannot send initial packet: Bad file descriptor. > > Thanks in advance you for any help you give me :) > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 24 13:00:26 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E05B106568B for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:00:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [65.122.17.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F8B8FC12 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:00:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (66.111.2.69.static.nyinternet.net [66.111.2.69]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 192DB46B03; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 08:00:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from jhbbsd.localnet (unknown [209.249.190.9]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4BBDA8A01B; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 08:00:25 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 07:50:48 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.12.1 (FreeBSD/7.2-CBSD-20091103; KDE/4.3.1; amd64; ; ) References: <20091223221524.GA68650@stack.nl> In-Reply-To: <20091223221524.GA68650@stack.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200912240750.48103.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0.1 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Thu, 24 Dec 2009 08:00:25 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.1 at bigwig.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on bigwig.baldwin.cx Cc: Jilles Tjoelker Subject: Re: why does _PATH_STDPATH contain the current directory? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:00:26 -0000 On Wednesday 23 December 2009 5:15:24 pm Jilles Tjoelker wrote: > /usr/include/paths.h has: > /* All standard utilities path. */ > #define _PATH_STDPATH "/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:" > > The current directory appears to have been added accidentally years ago. > Can I go ahead and take it out (the colon)? > > The paths for rescue already do not have the current directory. > > The main use for _PATH_STDPATH is to find all standard utilities, such > as for the POSIX-specified confstr(_CS_PATH), 'getconf PATH' and > 'command -p'. Some utilities also use it instead of _PATH_DEFPATH for > root, but these values tend to be overridden by /etc/login.conf and/or > shell startup files. I vote to fix it. That's an old bug. :) -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 24 13:14:39 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54410106566B for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:14:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from graphov@gmail.com) Received: from ey-out-2122.google.com (ey-out-2122.google.com [74.125.78.25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0D5F8FC17 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:14:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ey-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 4so2057753eyf.9 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 05:14:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=3/a2mlHoehJOVfSKXxZNXhEt2OdY+310thfXxELdmB8=; b=i9nFvBjaMszNPjOezmGoUgr+lnA4J7P+evfLDWn2/JrQO53QkTjekpqy43XrOXgur0 flVJk96LPgand/4AlCE18dSys+p/2nMlIa0viWg58zUcx4402XTiTKQ3IjFsHtNVqVF9 Lziv94FCcDQIaD3tA+wD+39Kirbw5UU9tTYKw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=kYEUpYs3XBhfW24mAjmcX1mK/mYkqRYUARvrWw9TMFDi12uUUYmuwJJm4m5gCpw7ka aiU9faulfpWJPyTLDQBrmhvgELsHwz5qdto37dA4ccBrqwVwERlPSDvFT33ikqlHAA6Y uKReEt3XrlTlUOtCqkdex7TgrFalivg5KKGlw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.109.156 with SMTP id j28mr6070739ebp.79.1261658715924; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 04:45:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:45:15 +0300 Message-ID: <5a5b03660912240445x7df1498dt42e29d93105efebc@mail.gmail.com> From: Paul Graphov To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: yarrow random generator X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:14:39 -0000 Hello guys, I've looked at FreeBSD 8.0 cryptographically secure pseudorandom numbers generator and have a question. It looks like a bug but I'am not sure. In file sys/dev/randomdev.c, function random_read: if (!random_systat.seeded) error = (*random_systat.block)(flag); It blocks until PRNG is seeded. For software random generator implementation block method looks as follows, sys/dev/randomdev_soft.c: random_yarrow_block(int flag) { int error = 0; mtx_lock(&random_reseed_mtx); /* Blocking logic */ while (random_systat.seeded && !error) { if (flag & O_NONBLOCK) error = EWOULDBLOCK; else { printf("Entropy device is blocking.\n"); error = msleep(&random_systat, &random_reseed_mtx, PUSER | PCATCH, "block", 0); } } mtx_unlock(&random_reseed_mtx); return error; } It seems that random_systat.seeded in "while" condition should be negated. Or it will never block actually, or block erroneously until next reseed (under very rare conditions) Am I right? Thanks. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 24 14:47:08 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F57106566B for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 14:47:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f227.google.com (mail-fx0-f227.google.com [209.85.220.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B86B8FC17 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 14:47:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxm27 with SMTP id 27so8368839fxm.3 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:47:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RTf7Rz7bEW3dPURrEN2dWwhhCvXJtifSn5pin+gx0+Y=; b=r4YPAkfHqNwcDl17g4hofww6DCPzbVQ2DNT8pkeNMrDxEZNwRJWtKeOTAale9lDXqe WjiC9/GhroCk+OAgKNsoatN+7j2DcoKTLK1VltKucFb0ROnv4sd2lSU/70pi9yTyHYEd HXBsx4Y8s/duIxhqofRO9VBzSTC41QamdSM14= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nIXIP9K3RkdnARip7VdBI0uynHR+oU6ygZF8Mum8c4DLBECoOoTv9QSpsJzcFifm31 7H2J3KAIMQcrvOq8sJV8OEr5fY0D5yXG+TG/zJy/k/VtpYDO3L6AVzJu9vpn01Oq1lpe hGdwkWoiQGvQv5Im+Vw+R8dCp6k4xbCjW2TYw= Received: by 10.223.143.73 with SMTP id t9mr4929870fau.89.1261666026565; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com (bb-87-81-140-128.ukonline.co.uk [87.81.140.128]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z10sm12840052fka.30.2009.12.24.06.47.05 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:47:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 14:47:03 +0000 From: RW To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20091224144703.482896eb@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <5a5b03660912240445x7df1498dt42e29d93105efebc@mail.gmail.com> References: <5a5b03660912240445x7df1498dt42e29d93105efebc@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.3 (GTK+ 2.18.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: yarrow random generator X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 14:47:08 -0000 On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:45:15 +0300 Paul Graphov wrote: > Hello guys, > > I've looked at FreeBSD 8.0 cryptographically secure pseudorandom > numbers generator and have a question. It looks like a bug but I'am > not sure. > > In file sys/dev/randomdev.c, function random_read: > > if (!random_systat.seeded) > error = (*random_systat.block)(flag); > > It blocks until PRNG is seeded. random_systat.seeded is initialized to 1 and it's never set to anything other than 1 I got impression that blocking was something that seemed like a good idea at the time, but fell-off half-way through coding. It's not a good idea to block /dev/random, without a separate urandom. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 24 15:12:15 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C966D106566C for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:12:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danny@cs.huji.ac.il) Received: from kabab.cs.huji.ac.il (kabab.cs.huji.ac.il [132.65.16.84]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8691C8FC16 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:12:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pampa.cs.huji.ac.il ([132.65.80.32]) by kabab.cs.huji.ac.il with esmtp id 1NNpMM-0003wc-92 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 17:12:14 +0200 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 01/07/2005 with nmh-1.2 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 17:12:14 +0200 From: Daniel Braniss Message-ID: Subject: memory growth by reboot? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:12:15 -0000 hi, we are evaluating a Sun X2270, with 24 GB of memory. initial boot shows: Aug 19 09:07:51 x2270.cs.huji.ac.il kernel: real memory = 15032385536 (14336 MB) (the date is wrong, but it auto-fixed via ntpdate later) next reboots: Dec 23 20:24:33 x2270.cs.huji.ac.il kernel: real memory = 17179869184 (16384 MB) Dec 23 21:20:47 x2270.cs.huji.ac.il kernel: real memory = 23622320128 (22528 MB) Dec 24 10:42:39 x2270.cs.huji.ac.il kernel: real memory = 25769803776 (24576 MB) Dec 24 10:56:50 x2270.cs.huji.ac.il kernel: real memory = 25769803776 (24576 MB) xmas miracle :-) or chanuka? i'm going to reboot again soon, maybe ... danny From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 24 16:07:08 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 898721065693 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 16:07:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from graphov@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f226.google.com (mail-ew0-f226.google.com [209.85.219.226]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF298FC17 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 16:07:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ewy26 with SMTP id 26so4905241ewy.3 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 08:07:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=nAfnWbJGtifOhWficKHCrgMD2+E1mezzhhbQSXOio0s=; b=gbhmKZfjUSvXnn+SFJ6/68guE7zbqH4Q7dIf5SBFjb2we4x50O7C52tWY+ABobHpBV jCezAbHInQu4LJp0XfcOsk1T95DpUeHmNOXq4qCNnrh/G4A879tnBieZ+8FwuzpJmgkF dbDpswUiwKF078KOISsbzn3FzP7zztDl+3pNU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Sr+BpiV1sdrluC8kAEVKZ1qByBR5IUphCCXd1cFMUfV4yOLL7LPRYlIGX+xQ+CZHAS t+3vJlKsZcifBRTi/VYvlvcwTfGBuuxjmCpo4eCspor/HBrs4T/JJHnvc9nikk+pugPB kTOj7Uru4u8et50TGp5a726chFAQTj9FrVbY0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.96.6 with SMTP id f6mr7702626ebn.81.1261670421599; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 08:00:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20091224144703.482896eb@gumby.homeunix.com> References: <5a5b03660912240445x7df1498dt42e29d93105efebc@mail.gmail.com> <20091224144703.482896eb@gumby.homeunix.com> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:00:21 +0300 Message-ID: <5a5b03660912240800n2265cd2ci508c64875a8b6d12@mail.gmail.com> From: Paul Graphov To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: yarrow random generator X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 16:07:08 -0000 random_systat.seeded is exported to sysctl? isn't it? In this case If somebody resets it to zero, some "read" goest to "block" and before acquiring mutex it is reseeded, setting it to true, block will never leave the cycle. 2009/12/24 RW > On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:45:15 +0300 > Paul Graphov wrote: > > > Hello guys, > > > > I've looked at FreeBSD 8.0 cryptographically secure pseudorandom > > numbers generator and have a question. It looks like a bug but I'am > > not sure. > > > > In file sys/dev/randomdev.c, function random_read: > > > > if (!random_systat.seeded) > > error = (*random_systat.block)(flag); > > > > It blocks until PRNG is seeded. > > random_systat.seeded is initialized to 1 and it's never set to anything > other than 1 > > I got impression that blocking was something that seemed like a good > idea at the time, but fell-off half-way through coding. It's not a > good idea to block /dev/random, without a separate urandom. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 24 17:41:23 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D6FF106566B for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 17:41:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from graphov@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f226.google.com (mail-ew0-f226.google.com [209.85.219.226]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC5518FC0C for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 17:41:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ewy26 with SMTP id 26so4981899ewy.3 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 09:41:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=BV8HETjDCuyGEDfUQEe4oswft7QvInBhw5pqi9c8CB0=; b=ASShR/BCHJlI/oFh24ANSyrx9hSK9iHyWp9zGe+yf7yOWjL8o3PnFntgV7ahEXWH1x ts3+faP16W9d7P76WwbDQ8qY1bUZ17TECWS+fLgb+RtVORy9TkhatJ47CWUkqHkeDh/P /vleEWFSmRaVTPrpx9v0n3U+e+XZj8eqim/lk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=GS/tqW6mEu27lX+hfN+PuaVFO6zEH0gWwyGmIH8pP43h+C69HTcb324ayaz4wjeKDd kfRFiJNSPLOk01MG5BgJTtWLts/hNXDXcvswVnSDbGtwUqclFkhXvkXKYXqlyfMP4JRr QTfhlwtd/7EPnxK6CABLZLb1IRdSq5ux6cJzM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.0.196 with SMTP id 4mr14094831ebc.41.1261676481675; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 09:41:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B339F27.6020707@freebsd.org> References: <5a5b03660912240445x7df1498dt42e29d93105efebc@mail.gmail.com> <4B339F27.6020707@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:41:21 +0300 Message-ID: <5a5b03660912240941r6b76a839u819a8a1408816386@mail.gmail.com> From: Paul Graphov To: secteam@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: yarrow random generator X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 17:41:23 -0000 Dont these lines (random_yarrow_init function) make it available to set "seeded" to zero? SYSCTL_ADD_PROC(&random_clist, SYSCTL_CHILDREN(random_sys_o), OID_AUTO, "seeded", CTLTYPE_INT | CTLFLAG_RW, &random_systat.seeded, 1, random_check_boolean, "I", "Seeded State"); And also according to Schneier it is a good idea to save state of the PRNG and restore it on boot to make it "more seeded". 2009/12/24 Colin Percival > Hi all, > > Looks like there's a bug here, but it doesn't matter since this is dead > code: .seeded is initialized to 1 and never modified, so we will never > call into random_yarrow_block. > > IIRC this is because there are some places which ask for entropy before > yarrow is seeded but don't actually need *cryptographic* entropy. > > > Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 03:45:15PM +0300, Paul Graphov wrote: > >> I've looked at FreeBSD 8.0 cryptographically secure pseudorandom > >> numbers generator and have a question. It looks like a bug but I'am > >> not sure. > >> > >> In file sys/dev/randomdev.c, function random_read: > >> > >> if (!random_systat.seeded) > >> error = (*random_systat.block)(flag); > >> > >> It blocks until PRNG is seeded. For software random generator > implementation > >> block method looks as follows, sys/dev/randomdev_soft.c: > >> > >> random_yarrow_block(int flag) > >> { > >> int error = 0; > >> > >> mtx_lock(&random_reseed_mtx); > >> > >> /* Blocking logic */ > >> while (random_systat.seeded && !error) { > >> if (flag & O_NONBLOCK) > >> error = EWOULDBLOCK; > >> else { > >> printf("Entropy device is blocking.\n"); > >> error = msleep(&random_systat, > >> &random_reseed_mtx, > >> PUSER | PCATCH, "block", 0); > >> } > >> } > >> mtx_unlock(&random_reseed_mtx); > >> > >> return error; > >> } > >> > >> It seems that random_systat.seeded in "while" condition should be > negated. > >> Or it will never block actually, or block erroneously until next reseed > >> (under very rare > >> conditions) > > -- > Colin Percival > Security Officer, FreeBSD | freebsd.org | The power to serve > Founder / author, Tarsnap | tarsnap.com | Online backups for the truly > paranoid > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 24 19:48:43 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA67D106566B; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:48:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [65.122.17.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B318C8FC15; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:48:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [65.122.17.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BABF46B03; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 14:48:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:48:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Paul Graphov In-Reply-To: <5a5b03660912240941r6b76a839u819a8a1408816386@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <5a5b03660912240445x7df1498dt42e29d93105efebc@mail.gmail.com> <4B339F27.6020707@freebsd.org> <5a5b03660912240941r6b76a839u819a8a1408816386@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, secteam@freebsd.org Subject: Re: yarrow random generator X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:48:43 -0000 On Thu, 24 Dec 2009, Paul Graphov wrote: > And also according to Schneier it is a good idea to save state of the PRNG > and restore it on boot to make it "more seeded". In the default configuration, we save some PRNG output every few minutes (using cron) to a file in /var so that it can be re-injected into Yarrow on the next boot (done by /etc/rc.d/random). Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge > > 2009/12/24 Colin Percival > >> Hi all, >> >> Looks like there's a bug here, but it doesn't matter since this is dead >> code: .seeded is initialized to 1 and never modified, so we will never >> call into random_yarrow_block. >> >> IIRC this is because there are some places which ask for entropy before >> yarrow is seeded but don't actually need *cryptographic* entropy. >> >>> Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 03:45:15PM +0300, Paul Graphov wrote: >>>> I've looked at FreeBSD 8.0 cryptographically secure pseudorandom >>>> numbers generator and have a question. It looks like a bug but I'am >>>> not sure. >>>> >>>> In file sys/dev/randomdev.c, function random_read: >>>> >>>> if (!random_systat.seeded) >>>> error = (*random_systat.block)(flag); >>>> >>>> It blocks until PRNG is seeded. For software random generator >> implementation >>>> block method looks as follows, sys/dev/randomdev_soft.c: >>>> >>>> random_yarrow_block(int flag) >>>> { >>>> int error = 0; >>>> >>>> mtx_lock(&random_reseed_mtx); >>>> >>>> /* Blocking logic */ >>>> while (random_systat.seeded && !error) { >>>> if (flag & O_NONBLOCK) >>>> error = EWOULDBLOCK; >>>> else { >>>> printf("Entropy device is blocking.\n"); >>>> error = msleep(&random_systat, >>>> &random_reseed_mtx, >>>> PUSER | PCATCH, "block", 0); >>>> } >>>> } >>>> mtx_unlock(&random_reseed_mtx); >>>> >>>> return error; >>>> } >>>> >>>> It seems that random_systat.seeded in "while" condition should be >> negated. >>>> Or it will never block actually, or block erroneously until next reseed >>>> (under very rare >>>> conditions) >> >> -- >> Colin Percival >> Security Officer, FreeBSD | freebsd.org | The power to serve >> Founder / author, Tarsnap | tarsnap.com | Online backups for the truly >> paranoid >> > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 24 23:13:52 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 783281065696 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 23:13:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f227.google.com (mail-fx0-f227.google.com [209.85.220.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 064AF8FC21 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 23:13:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxm27 with SMTP id 27so8605386fxm.3 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:13:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KYArV1bgPnhkYy4uzcyEgAi6qtRbuLmWJCeeOO6WzA4=; b=NREnehTz/YksLs0EVbopfRWXhwBjEFIH7x5Y0xJgv5d5faSmos0ilNxIHb5Cc5Uzkz 0UAGl/wo0fB3FgDtD0HrzEFNwo8ldOWlFGdp4SJL5D5aMIUmlfqBtgQOy2OxYJwrXDmd iuEEH9ehVmBhybpGUBy0//NA07ll7rFg5UdjQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ddozus6ch/Irhuh/gHun2ErlapbN0olZDjTZLFeD0ffm/ayWFtH/RxAqfu6pd174Js r7T/LMrIElxab/95g1jn7kp3mVhBufsIGWPa+HOpkZaXv403Qgh0JRtUm9bXGgMTysGh ZXxo4ZERZoxg1Dj46I3Z3uhoLd8OfPoLN0ZaY= Received: by 10.223.14.13 with SMTP id e13mr6148479faa.85.1261696430815; Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:13:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com (bb-87-81-140-128.ukonline.co.uk [87.81.140.128]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h2sm13214804fkh.2.2009.12.24.15.13.47 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 24 Dec 2009 15:13:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 23:13:34 +0000 From: RW To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20091224231334.2e242371@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: References: <5a5b03660912240445x7df1498dt42e29d93105efebc@mail.gmail.com> <4B339F27.6020707@freebsd.org> <5a5b03660912240941r6b76a839u819a8a1408816386@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.3 (GTK+ 2.18.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: yarrow random generator X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 23:13:52 -0000 On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:48:43 +0000 (GMT) Robert Watson wrote: > On Thu, 24 Dec 2009, Paul Graphov wrote: > > > And also according to Schneier it is a good idea to save state of > > the PRNG and restore it on boot to make it "more seeded". > > In the default configuration, we save some PRNG output every few > minutes (using cron) to a file in /var so that it can be re-injected > into Yarrow on the next boot (done by /etc/rc.d/random). It isn't handled very well though. The files saved by crontab under /var are loaded a bit late in the boot sequence - after encrypted swap. The main entropy file is loaded earlier, but immediatly after ps -fauxww, sysctl -a, etc are dumped into the device, saturating its 4K of buffer space. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 25 10:25:34 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B76A5106568B for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:25:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alwayssm@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f227.google.com (mail-fx0-f227.google.com [209.85.220.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 547A18FC21 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:25:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxm27 with SMTP id 27so8767754fxm.3 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 02:25:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=whrZK6bMpzeS57g2+MEExfC5Rb+dWYhRCRyiOBzgGp8=; b=PuaBqy81qRkOsa6daW2FfCF0fBW6flZ0o+1RwBbmfyOzM1Xs0du/OBdq2W23TDjYus kIUwoqb6H+BKBQV4pRah3XA/TUKpQGRv4+Wr4yC8J74R41cqIhUmfutulLLEFDcxacJh CmqzyhDEZTD6FvNL584Astu9S8GW/+3b0RetM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=HZmjj0mc8Ub85+wmW9NeLDHym5lE7+csta5kfEATXxJ/att7Vulq8TCK9fh9rsGE0M QeAUouZynKGQpqDEGsGUEnTr3PUbFNdayd9CqOqDMWWwmXxMf+a98KvfMbTVlcFwtVuX bH8Jpxfl1dxPqKou98ZpcBPJXlhvF9i/nwJ5k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.144.207 with SMTP id a15mr8064921fav.63.1261735217156; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 02:00:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:00:17 +0000 Message-ID: From: solomon To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 12:40:48 +0000 Subject: init died during installing picobsd X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:25:34 -0000 hi there, I have built picobsd for bridge. My system is freebsd 7.2. It is built successfully and i burnt it to writable cdrom and try to install it to my dell pc. It hangs up with "init died ..." message. I run the alltrace command of the ddb and found the following message ... ... Tracing comhi mand swapper pid 1 tid 100000 td 0xc4049000 kbd_enter_why(..........)... panic(..........)...... exit1(.........).......... kern_execve........... execve............. sysinit_add........... fork_exit............. fork_trampoline........... Tracing command swapper pid 0 tid ............. ............ where is my fault? if the information provided is enough to diagnose it. thanx in advance From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 25 13:21:19 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A8DB106568B for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:21:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aavzz@yandex.ru) Received: from forward5.mail.yandex.net (forward5.mail.yandex.net [77.88.46.21]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 264338FC1A for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:21:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp5.mail.yandex.net (smtp5.mail.yandex.net [77.88.47.12]) by forward5.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 5C9768F8072 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:08:44 +0300 (MSK) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (addr-44-20.telix.ru [81.201.20.44]) by smtp5.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTPA id 218D379804A for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:08:44 +0300 (MSK) From: Alex Zimnitsky To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:07:56 +0300 Message-Id: <1261746476.2925.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.3.1 (2.22.3.1-1.fc9) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yandex-TimeMark: 1261746524 X-Yandex-Spam: 1 X-Yandex-Front: smtp5.mail.yandex.net Subject: mount misinforming X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:21:19 -0000 Hello, hackers in the output given by mount some entries may be misinforming when an fs is mounted in a chrooted environment. here is the case: #mkdir /var/somedir #cd /usr/src #make DESTDIR=/var/somedir buildworld installworld distribution #chroot /var/somedir #mount -t devfs devfs /dev #mount two entries for /dev are listed - one for chrooted and one for parent environment. may be parent environment's /dev shoud be marked somehow, may be it should not be listed at all. #^D #mount two entries for /dev are listed. one of them really should be /var/somedir/dev the questions are 1) should the output be changed? 2) is there something in the kernel design which prevents it from being done easily? Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 25 13:51:45 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66167106566B; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:51:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [65.122.17.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E24D8FC16; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:51:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [65.122.17.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6A7546B17; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 08:51:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:51:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: RW In-Reply-To: <20091224231334.2e242371@gumby.homeunix.com> Message-ID: References: <5a5b03660912240445x7df1498dt42e29d93105efebc@mail.gmail.com> <4B339F27.6020707@freebsd.org> <5a5b03660912240941r6b76a839u819a8a1408816386@mail.gmail.com> <20091224231334.2e242371@gumby.homeunix.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, markm@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: yarrow random generator X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:51:45 -0000 On Thu, 24 Dec 2009, RW wrote: >>> And also according to Schneier it is a good idea to save state of the PRNG >>> and restore it on boot to make it "more seeded". >> >> In the default configuration, we save some PRNG output every few minutes >> (using cron) to a file in /var so that it can be re-injected into Yarrow on >> the next boot (done by /etc/rc.d/random). > > It isn't handled very well though. The files saved by crontab under /var are > loaded a bit late in the boot sequence - after encrypted swap. > > The main entropy file is loaded earlier, but immediatly after ps -fauxww, > sysctl -a, etc are dumped into the device, saturating its 4K of buffer > space. I can't speak to the specific /dev/random design choices here, but I can say that there is a more general issue with swap being required to get to the point where you reliably have writable file system access. This is because fsck can be quite memory-heavy, and so swap is started before fsck is started. It could well be that the arrival of proper UFS journaling support in the immediate future allows more agressive reordering of the boot process so that writable file systems can be assumed much earlier. I'll point Mark Murray at this thread and see if we can get him to opine some on the current design choices and any potential changes to address them. I was interested by your observation that the boot-time dumping of bits into /dev/random may overflow the buffering -- indeed, it looks like the rate-controlling in effect for other entropy sources may not be appropriate for /dev/random. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 25 21:38:14 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13176106568B for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:38:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx21.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9562C8FC19 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:38:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 16087 invoked by uid 399); 25 Dec 2009 21:38:11 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 25 Dec 2009 21:38:11 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B3530C2.4020607@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:38:10 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20091206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: <5a5b03660912240445x7df1498dt42e29d93105efebc@mail.gmail.com> <4B339F27.6020707@freebsd.org> <5a5b03660912240941r6b76a839u819a8a1408816386@mail.gmail.com> <20091224231334.2e242371@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, RW , markm@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: yarrow random generator X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:38:14 -0000 Robert Watson wrote: > I'll point Mark Murray at this thread and see if we can get him to opine > some on the current design choices and any potential changes to address > them. I was interested by your observation that the boot-time dumping > of bits into /dev/random may overflow the buffering -- I was peripherally involved in the introduction of yarrow in the sense that I wrote most of the rc and periodic stuff for it so I am also interested in this issue. Rather than speculating about whether it's overflowing the buffer perhaps a patch can be produced to test this hypothesis? I can't do it today, but if no one else gets around to it soon I will give it a look. Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 26 03:32:21 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC0B106568D for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 03:32:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f227.google.com (mail-fx0-f227.google.com [209.85.220.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD21C8FC13 for ; Sat, 26 Dec 2009 03:32:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxm27 with SMTP id 27so9068134fxm.3 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:32:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5IPtAO4bYEDXVwavmOqOqfm434QfNdqvH87Aa9SbGBs=; b=wHLtKt2vd/dJl1i4iggMGTGZchfDz+iKekdwFdStH3UFL1/E2MOuE7AzzdyFb4iCrf vDgs7qD3WeJgYeyJnaeichcndGrangneC0RSQXGqTNxtiPDjRgFldMjZZK6TivgI9+az 83Eioaa80GXKvMeGedNMiX6+MDRpPu2AUNSiM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Gh2BWsORLOa6J3SOnUGt2+znhoMq5AZmcXLZUWZu9mEnK8LkVpAiHWBmwmdIf9juq3 l1opOvS2dJbqomlmH3Xyt6KJ7qgXCvLNsv9/kREC+vp+bS0Pfmw2fhOmnmoaX06hqJwO fPBWasofyYMO7Xz7poouigPrAEwHNMO7gKiS0= Received: by 10.223.59.3 with SMTP id j3mr794691fah.46.1261798339826; Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:32:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com (bb-87-81-140-128.ukonline.co.uk [87.81.140.128]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 1sm9260799fks.59.2009.12.25.19.32.18 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 25 Dec 2009 19:32:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 03:32:16 +0000 From: RW To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20091226033216.145bb35f@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <4B3530C2.4020607@FreeBSD.org> References: <5a5b03660912240445x7df1498dt42e29d93105efebc@mail.gmail.com> <4B339F27.6020707@freebsd.org> <5a5b03660912240941r6b76a839u819a8a1408816386@mail.gmail.com> <20091224231334.2e242371@gumby.homeunix.com> <4B3530C2.4020607@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.3 (GTK+ 2.18.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: yarrow random generator X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 03:32:21 -0000 On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:38:10 -0800 Doug Barton wrote: > Robert Watson wrote: > > I'll point Mark Murray at this thread and see if we can get him to > > opine some on the current design choices and any potential changes > > to address them. I was interested by your observation that the > > boot-time dumping of bits into /dev/random may overflow the > > buffering -- > > I was peripherally involved in the introduction of yarrow in the sense > that I wrote most of the rc and periodic stuff for it so I am also > interested in this issue. Rather than speculating about whether it's > overflowing the buffer perhaps a patch can be produced to test this > hypothesis? It's not really speculation, the data is broken into 16 byte chunks, random_harvest_internal() is called to copy each chunk into a buffer and queue it. If there are 256 or more buffers in the queue random_harvest_internal() returns without doing anything. The kernel thread that processes the queues calls pause("-", hz /10) each time it loops. A fairly simple solution would be piping all that low-grade entropy from sysctl and ps etc through sha256, reducing it to 64 bytes.