From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 29 11:06:51 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 072881065705 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:06:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF4B38FC0A for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:06:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o2TB6oIb057914 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:06:50 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id o2TB6oaG057912 for freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:06:50 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:06:50 GMT Message-Id: <201003291106.o2TB6oaG057912@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:06:51 -0000 Note: to view an individual PR, use: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number). The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users. These represent problem reports covering all versions including experimental development code and obsolete releases. S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o kern/120749 arch [request] Suggest upping the default kern.ps_arg_cache 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 30 12:38:36 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE35A1065672; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:38:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de [217.11.53.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FCAE8FC1D; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:38:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from outgoing.leidinger.net (pD9E2CD4C.dip.t-dialin.net [217.226.205.76]) by mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A4188844410; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:38:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from webmail.leidinger.net (webmail.leidinger.net [192.168.1.102]) by outgoing.leidinger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BC86508C; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:38:24 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=Leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1269952704; bh=w/3TSSBD5jnn3mn65llzAC6HNQyjoKfKS1EeoQMbbqs=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=hEtwnXDWxKsoc6imNG+NHUevbXW6najoCQq0OslOaWfrEPDsnPl0A0qHcPIJrOJV2 UKBPhx1TESRtTcRXrl4OX8DyrXC/n0p5B6FiMzoSVPNHpPgufsyfbAF0Av07+oJJIY 4Q/Tcn4mIy6NadcS5mjt9UIM5k/fKKCwx25oR4veu38kLQPEVV7aTLfPrGr08E5y+G j4bd/b5Dfrwm0PpmlJYlHmfMDOzocaxPU9MH1nKiMrJHRaPfbWq3Jcdo16nsZTwV+1 6JrG3tOrHiRYTEBNAZ0hsQBfkEuED/iXf+AbFPMs1x9YUl9i1cFHRrDTYK/+7Mudql K14QjQytYTmFw== Received: (from www@localhost) by webmail.leidinger.net (8.14.3/8.13.8/Submit) id o2UCcOtN010711; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:38:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from pslux.cec.eu.int (pslux.cec.eu.int [158.169.9.14]) by webmail.leidinger.net (Horde Framework) with HTTP; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:38:24 +0200 Message-ID: <20100330143824.252520tulyv7bxes@webmail.leidinger.net> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:38:24 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: gary.jennejohn@freenet.de References: <20100326101524.15695bisy2324t8g@webmail.leidinger.net> <20100326.093717.857133809997909007.imp@bsdimp.com> <20100326171241.16524bklcroedou8@webmail.leidinger.net> <20100326.102344.364422370204095721.imp@bsdimp.com> <20100327101846.5b4d6b18@ernst.jennejohn.org> In-Reply-To: <20100327101846.5b4d6b18@ernst.jennejohn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Dynamic Internet Messaging Program (DIMP) H3 (1.1.4) X-EBL-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-EBL-MailScanner-ID: A4188844410.C98DE X-EBL-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-EBL-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, spamhaus-ZEN, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-1.44, required 6, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.44, DKIM_SIGNED 0.00, DKIM_VERIFIED -0.00) X-EBL-MailScanner-From: alexander@leidinger.net X-EBL-MailScanner-Watermark: 1270557508.26716@P9WXXz1vYO5jNV4f7qymaQ X-EBL-Spam-Status: No Cc: rwatson@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CTF patch for testing/review X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:38:36 -0000 Quoting Gary Jennejohn (from Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:18:46 +0100): > On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 10:23:44 -0600 (MDT) > "M. Warner Losh" wrote: > >> In message: <20100326171241.16524bklcroedou8@webmail.leidinger.net> >> Alexander Leidinger writes: > [entry in build(7)] >> : I will have a look at it next week. As I'm not a native english >> : speaker, you can expect another patch for review (text suggestions for >> : build.9 are welcome, I will take care about the mdoc markup then). >> > > Note, it's build(7), not build(9). At least, I find no build(9) on > my -current system installed two days ago. > >> How does this text look (posted so everybody can kibitz): >> >> WITH_CTF the build process will run the DTrace CTF conversion >> tools on built objects. Please note that this WITH_ >> option is handled differently than all other WITH_ >> options (there's no WITHOUT_CTF, or corresponding > ==> there is - no contractions, please >> MK_CTF in the build system). >> > > Otherwise it looks OK to me. http://www.leidinger.net/test/ctf4.diff Changes to previous one: - added @ to hide the CTF stuff - man-page (to test: "groff -mdoc -Tascii /path/to/build.7 | less") Someone with mdoc-fu should have a look if I got it right, the others please have a look if the place in the man-page pleases you. The changed commit log would be: ---snip--- WITH_CTF can now be specified in src.conf (not recommended, there are some problems with static executables), make.conf (would also affect ports which do not use GNU make and do not override the compile targets) or in the kernel config (via "makeoptions WITH_CTF=yes"). Additional (related) changes: - propagate WITH_CTF to module builds - do not add -g to the linker flags, it's a noop there anyway (at least according to the man page of ld) - do not add -g to CFLAGS unconditionally we need to have a look if it is really needed (IMO not) or if there is a way to add it only when WITH_CTF is used Note: ctfconvert / ctfmerge lines will not appear in the build output, to protect the innocent (those which do not build with WITH_CTF would see the shell-test and may think WITH_CTF is used). Reviewed by: imp, jhb, scottl (earlier version) Discussed on: arch@ ---snip--- What about Friday morning (GMT+2) for a commit date (if nobody complains): not long enough for review or is it OK? Bye, Alexander. -- The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness. -- John Muir http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID = B0063FE7 http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID = 72077137 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 11:05:38 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030C31065677; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:05:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDBBE8FC1B; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:05:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pwi9 with SMTP id 9so1006936pwi.13 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 04:05:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=qEfyEXcJNr1CSv97B9XaLZqvseiZwNtBxdcdbRd22Jk=; b=ckeebakE4Ymrg6zxwqW8ssJUYj0sbrItucd403PHADqda+dJw6TMox+W2gmzQNfOiA IqvwMduZ5LkK2CjoX3OfsP1TnOPUem+hJuERwg7NW2jKWSq4g+RHvColkrJj3wubekbJ PEcfst2VbDFnN0bsJPTsx3JxC8dqq7hGPx4oE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=xVaMj1Y+eQYrVZd4hVJffYtkH6orgHVRb9EVsW8JaEpeMQS7OxtKd1HyVadWBOUVwQ OFVUdxlesGweh8S+yrfwI3zFFfFUrspvkbyZfkK03o0D/Ch/Z/sWxU9tZFMOFxUe5OEn HTCAzdCV+7YhC33HgCw4/0KNidOdeTrE5EmqE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.127.14 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 03:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.127.14 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 03:41:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4BACFE18.7010309@delphij.net> <86wrwylji0.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4BAD509B.3080805@delphij.net> <86ljdelhgd.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4BAD62CF.6090901@delphij.net> <868w9elego.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20100331102509.GI34892@gahrfit.gahr.ch> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 03:41:13 -0700 Received: by 10.141.89.14 with SMTP id r14mr2444093rvl.33.1270032073702; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 03:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Xin LI To: gahr@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: d@delphij.net, the_paya@gentoo.org, ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Dag=2DErling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= , Alexander Logvinov Subject: Re: [RFC] Reduce namespace pollution on zlib.h X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:05:38 -0000 I will merge an upstream change from zlib, which basically unexpose LFS stuff on FreeBSD, and I plan to keep the off_t bits =3D=3D 64. However, I = would highly recommend ports maintainers to push upstream fix for LFS64 definitio= n removal since they are wrong on FreeBSD On Mar 31, 2010 3:30 AM, "Pietro Cerutti" wrote: On 2010-Mar-27, 02:51, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > Xin LI writes: > > So... ... Just to make it clear so that everyone knows how we're going to handle this: are you (src people) going to commit a fix to unexpose LFS crap or are we (ports people) supposed to fix each and every single port that supposes to be on Linux? The attentive reader will note a bias towards the former :) -- Pietro Cerutti The FreeBSD Project gahr@FreeBSD.org PGP Public Key: http://gahr.ch/pgp From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 11:31:23 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB24106566C; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:31:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gahr@gahr.ch) Received: from cpanel05.rubas-s05.net (cpanel05.rubas-s05.net [195.182.222.75]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF9748FC19; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:31:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from 168-254.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch ([92.105.254.168] helo=gahrfit.gahr.ch) by cpanel05.rubas-s05.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nww8i-0002yF-7k; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:31:17 +0200 Received: by gahrfit.gahr.ch (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:27:35 +0200 From: "Pietro Cerutti" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:27:35 +0200 To: Xin LI Message-ID: <20100331112735.GJ34892@gahrfit.gahr.ch> References: <4BACFE18.7010309@delphij.net> <86wrwylji0.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4BAD509B.3080805@delphij.net> <86ljdelhgd.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4BAD62CF.6090901@delphij.net> <868w9elego.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20100331102509.GI34892@gahrfit.gahr.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PWfwoUCx3AFJRUBq" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: 0x9571F78E X-PGP-Fingerprint: 1203 92B5 3919 AF84 9B97 28D6 C0C2 6A98 9571 F78E User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cpanel05.rubas-s05.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - gahr.ch X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: d@delphij.net, the_paya@gentoo.org, ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Dag-Erling =?utf-8?B?U23DuHJncmF2?= , Alexander Logvinov Subject: Re: [RFC] Reduce namespace pollution on zlib.h X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: gahr@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:31:23 -0000 --PWfwoUCx3AFJRUBq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2010-Mar-31, 03:41, Xin LI wrote: > I will merge an upstream change from zlib, which basically unexpose LFS > stuff on FreeBSD, and I plan to keep the off_t bits =3D=3D 64. However, = I would > highly recommend ports maintainers to push upstream fix for LFS64 definit= ion > removal since they are wrong on FreeBSD Sounds great, thanks! >=20 > On Mar 31, 2010 3:30 AM, "Pietro Cerutti" wrote: >=20 > On 2010-Mar-27, 02:51, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > > Xin LI writes: > > > So... ... > Just to make it clear so that everyone knows how we're going to handle > this: are you (src people) going to commit a fix to unexpose LFS crap > or are we (ports people) supposed to fix each and every single port > that supposes to be on Linux? >=20 > The attentive reader will note a bias towards the former :) >=20 > -- > Pietro Cerutti > The FreeBSD Project > gahr@FreeBSD.org >=20 > PGP Public Key: > http://gahr.ch/pgp > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-ports-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" --=20 Pietro Cerutti The FreeBSD Project gahr@FreeBSD.org PGP Public Key: http://gahr.ch/pgp --PWfwoUCx3AFJRUBq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkuzMaYACgkQwMJqmJVx946w9wCgm5x1kJN1sevZYmXlKzloNyCy LRoAoJXDuLF5bdFyfTJxy+o4fXhxDmE7 =r2tK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PWfwoUCx3AFJRUBq-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 12:03:58 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C837106568A for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:03:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gahr@gahr.ch) Received: from cpanel05.rubas-s05.net (cpanel05.rubas-s05.net [195.182.222.75]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E688FC14 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:03:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from 168-254.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch ([92.105.254.168] helo=gahrfit.gahr.ch) by cpanel05.rubas-s05.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NwvAI-0000IT-CA; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:28:51 +0200 Received: by gahrfit.gahr.ch (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:25:10 +0200 From: "Pietro Cerutti" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:25:10 +0200 To: Dag-Erling =?utf-8?B?U23DuHJncmF2?= Message-ID: <20100331102509.GI34892@gahrfit.gahr.ch> References: <4BACFE18.7010309@delphij.net> <86wrwylji0.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4BAD509B.3080805@delphij.net> <86ljdelhgd.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4BAD62CF.6090901@delphij.net> <868w9elego.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k+G3HLlWI7eRTl+h" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <868w9elego.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-PGP-Key: 0x9571F78E X-PGP-Fingerprint: 1203 92B5 3919 AF84 9B97 28D6 C0C2 6A98 9571 F78E User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cpanel05.rubas-s05.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - gahr.ch X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: ports@freebsd.org, d@delphij.net, Alexander Logvinov , the_paya@gentoo.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Reduce namespace pollution on zlib.h X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: gahr@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:03:58 -0000 --k+G3HLlWI7eRTl+h Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2010-Mar-27, 02:51, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > Xin LI writes: > > So... May I consider my import just exposed some existing bugs in other > > applications and we don't want to workaround these issues? >=20 > Correct. Just to make it clear so that everyone knows how we're going to handle this: are you (src people) going to commit a fix to unexpose LFS crap or are we (ports people) supposed to fix each and every single port that supposes to be on Linux? The attentive reader will note a bias towards the former :) --=20 Pietro Cerutti The FreeBSD Project gahr@FreeBSD.org PGP Public Key: http://gahr.ch/pgp --k+G3HLlWI7eRTl+h Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkuzIwUACgkQwMJqmJVx944OwACgiL36ea+2aigN9/+ihTOUr7+Q CNsAmwWI2KEDRmKkblW9+OLqpT/jYpYa =vLIB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k+G3HLlWI7eRTl+h-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 20:05:18 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1B1F106566B; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 20:05:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org (tarsier.geekcn.org [IPv6:2001:470:a803::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BC1D8FC17; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 20:05:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.geekcn.org (tarsier.geekcn.org [211.166.10.233]) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4169EA67F4E; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 04:05:17 +0800 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at geekcn.org Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org ([211.166.10.233]) by mail.geekcn.org (mail.geekcn.org [211.166.10.233]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id OwybFajlCZWw; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 04:05:10 +0800 (CST) Received: from delta.delphij.net (drawbridge.ixsystems.com [206.40.55.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 949C0A5638A; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 04:05:09 +0800 (CST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=default; d=delphij.net; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:organization:user-agent: mime-version:to:subject:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=g4KlDKJyPbCJd85D7XKoKToYoBS5yenKYEv3YICfLu4I+OfMFr7Lcd03hwVv0Avax YeyKx/utb+Pg8YNiWFmwA== Message-ID: <4BB3AAF1.3080205@delphij.net> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:05:05 -0700 From: Xin LI Organization: The Geek China Organization User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD amd64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100304 Thunderbird/3.0.3 ThunderBrowse/3.2.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, kan@FreeBSD.org, Daniel Eischen X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 OpenPGP: id=3FCA37C1; url=http://www.delphij.net/delphij.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Versioned symbols: what can we deal with move between two symbols? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: d@delphij.net List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 20:05:19 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Assuming that we had: Version_1.0 { MySymbol64; }; Version_private_1.0 { MySymbol; }; In the past, but now we have: Version_1.0 { MySymbol; MySymbol64; }; Version_private_1.0 { }; I think this would cause ABI problem. The interfaces are the same to their previous version, though. Is there a way to "promote" the MySymbol from _private_1.0 interface to _1.0 safely? Cheers, - -- Xin LI http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! Live free or die -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJLs6rxAAoJEATO+BI/yjfBdzMH/RMI2iC1A2H9I6dFzJJZDW49 L56ApZGihV1pULe1YB59JSHXAQtxoaHfmJu/fx/uR6+AMqCxnNqjzfVl8Ic3bJnT IYRWNjSR8zd6hQieH7rCa+taYHn/EHj+BDspiZxkGaiDnn65StOIDI03y16khdm/ maX6ANsb+HZxHDtVxt5Q0Gfs5JZlE3MZxLXmAJtTyyN6+eXlw2l4phdV3X6pBA58 JouCFZplEInhfAbczptOppyOuBuMhMcolcP2le2fU/ZOWiaKIM7oKJmD5FBnfeR+ bRYGIYVUsTfoNyNA5zZbzM0auS6jlADd04QJAL3iMNopLrZWzcupBFoVQoyvyYo= =Zk+B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 31 20:25:51 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCEE106564A for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 20:25:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.netplex.net (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C0F98FC19 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 20:25:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sea.ntplx.net (sea.ntplx.net [204.213.176.11]) by mail.netplex.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id o2VKPe5g023152; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:25:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.netplex.net) X-Greylist: Message whitelisted by DRAC access database, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.10]); Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:25:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:25:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen X-X-Sender: eischen@sea.ntplx.net To: d@delphij.net In-Reply-To: <4BB3AAF1.3080205@delphij.net> Message-ID: References: <4BB3AAF1.3080205@delphij.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: kan@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Versioned symbols: what can we deal with move between two symbols? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Daniel Eischen List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 20:25:51 -0000 On Wed, 31 Mar 2010, Xin LI wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi, > > Assuming that we had: > > Version_1.0 { > MySymbol64; > }; > > Version_private_1.0 { > MySymbol; > }; > > In the past, but now we have: > > Version_1.0 { > MySymbol; > MySymbol64; > }; > > Version_private_1.0 { > }; > > I think this would cause ABI problem. The interfaces are the same to > their previous version, though. > > Is there a way to "promote" the MySymbol from _private_1.0 interface to > _1.0 safely? Anything in FBSDprivate_X namespace is private and NOT part of the ABI. As such, it is allowed to change. Any 3rd party software (why do they call it 3rd party, shouldn't it be 2nd party? ;-)) that uses symbols in the private namespace is not ABI safe. You can move anything out of and into the private namespace, and a buildworld should be all that is necessary to accomodate that change. -- DE From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 10:51:56 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 753E3106564A; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 10:51:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from daniel.rodrick@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f191.google.com (mail-pz0-f191.google.com [209.85.222.191]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E6F28FC21; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 10:51:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pzk29 with SMTP id 29so968452pzk.27 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 03:51:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:received:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=F5qurhc6roRcVBsEHj4D3HjHdvJKzQvvZrDvikPcj+k=; b=uBmEoWUZou9ZBe9y3cx2ZAvBs4wK5tHv2kR0qUDAJU+eStOm/yzwtNcRl3/ZZbRDIX jfl9OyQu+KjP64xqaKEC9yO0uUefgFRIq3T4hZ8YlfbEmeDvlnTjaaQzIfWtGxpdvigq scvgAUnr4n/qTJbIJrbitJc+SAG8i/igX+dng= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=UocfQB/Q1bT/3Z8a3Wf29w5MiD5DyJBQpHBv0Uuam6lb4utKQ12WAp+SAS/BpSVbns ZKHlA8rziwnRAmor4Z+JYhfwRXmsNk1paOTvYRzQ8nnp2qu++Yy5Xq4DdEpQnvkyUFXd n/d9ZKJms++RjByP2CKiYAAuapqKNmvd9LlUg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.165.10 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 03:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 15:53:50 +0530 Received: by 10.143.24.15 with SMTP id b15mr116786wfj.147.1270117430542; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 03:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Daniel Rodrick To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-drivers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Subject: Newbie question: kernel image a dynamically linked binary? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:51:56 -0000 Hello List, I'm a newbie and coming from Linux background, and am trying to learn FreeBSD now. The first thing I find a little confusing is that the final FreeBSD kernel image is shown as a DYNAMICALLY LINKED binary: $ $ pwd /boot/kernel $ $ file kernel kernel: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped $ How can the kernel image use shared libraries? And which ones does it use, if any? Also, I cannot find out the libraries the image uses using the traditional ldd command: $ ldd kernel kernel: kernel: signal 6 $ Can some please throw some light? Thanks, Dan From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 11:33:22 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B8A8106564A; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 11:33:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de [217.11.53.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C4F8FC14; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 11:33:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from outgoing.leidinger.net (pD9E2CED9.dip.t-dialin.net [217.226.206.217]) by mail.ebusiness-leidinger.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 68EF78442CD; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:33:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from webmail.leidinger.net (webmail.leidinger.net [192.168.1.102]) by outgoing.leidinger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007DD5040; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:33:11 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=Leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1270121592; bh=zUPqwIntxheQc2pWQdVCZ+jWy6pkLbg0tW+RjBczgcY=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Q7UEvxrO7id+B+nB6LLft1r0mnb2BDeORcRJdxeaB+fpT71Y86BFfsshi4ivkw9el vuSJl+lBMrUqN2vUi/qO9a5ceA0u2UFPB+OcD8z4T5AB6itkl4HTMfI7Ozesr/dS3C 6OA4V21vJOFQy6b7TGvrQFfPEXBQBr6+en3ntReE4vZfrZkO+WsvJzflKRJ4drpnNq BHKsb4VN/bRZbGDW+On0tAv+aMTm/akLLpZlsm3UrJgzqh6G6Y9rbHo1bmtdsrD8q3 ozqbUHUwqeGf/pHJK9Ad3lL42NmYoGpHB1UMt98xphzWNgwidlyvCYTJzMxN6MdaNj nJV1R3jPM1Q+A== Received: (from www@localhost) by webmail.leidinger.net (8.14.3/8.13.8/Submit) id o31BXBjE075473; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:33:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from pslux.cec.eu.int (pslux.cec.eu.int [158.169.9.14]) by webmail.leidinger.net (Horde Framework) with HTTP; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:33:10 +0200 Message-ID: <20100401133310.194173uurnj5nq4g@webmail.leidinger.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:33:10 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: Alexander Leidinger References: <20100326101524.15695bisy2324t8g@webmail.leidinger.net> <20100326.093717.857133809997909007.imp@bsdimp.com> <20100326171241.16524bklcroedou8@webmail.leidinger.net> <20100326.102344.364422370204095721.imp@bsdimp.com> <20100327101846.5b4d6b18@ernst.jennejohn.org> <20100330143824.252520tulyv7bxes@webmail.leidinger.net> In-Reply-To: <20100330143824.252520tulyv7bxes@webmail.leidinger.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Dynamic Internet Messaging Program (DIMP) H3 (1.1.4) X-EBL-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-EBL-MailScanner-ID: 68EF78442CD.42697 X-EBL-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-EBL-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, spamhaus-ZEN, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-1.44, required 6, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.44, DKIM_SIGNED 0.00, DKIM_VERIFIED -0.00) X-EBL-MailScanner-From: alexander@leidinger.net X-EBL-MailScanner-Watermark: 1270726397.20867@9jeZYun8oZPXb29bh+JPZg X-EBL-Spam-Status: No Cc: imp@freebsd.org, rwatson@freebsd.org, gary.jennejohn@freenet.de, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CTF patch for testing/review X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:33:22 -0000 Quoting Alexander Leidinger (from Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:38:24 +0200): > http://www.leidinger.net/test/ctf4.diff > > Changes to previous one: > - added @ to hide the CTF stuff > - man-page (to test: "groff -mdoc -Tascii /path/to/build.7 | less") > > Someone with mdoc-fu should have a look if I got it right, the > others please have a look if the place in the man-page pleases you. > > The changed commit log would be: > ---snip--- > WITH_CTF can now be specified in src.conf (not recommended, there > are some problems with static executables), make.conf (would also > affect ports which do not use GNU make and do not override the > compile targets) or in the kernel config (via "makeoptions > WITH_CTF=yes"). > > Additional (related) changes: > - propagate WITH_CTF to module builds > - do not add -g to the linker flags, it's a noop there anyway > (at least according to the man page of ld) > - do not add -g to CFLAGS unconditionally > we need to have a look if it is really needed (IMO not) or if there > is a way to add it only when WITH_CTF is used > > Note: ctfconvert / ctfmerge lines will not appear in the build output, > to protect the innocent (those which do not build with WITH_CTF would > see the shell-test and may think WITH_CTF is used). > > Reviewed by: imp, jhb, scottl (earlier version) > Discussed on: arch@ > ---snip--- > > What about Friday morning (GMT+2) for a commit date (if nobody > complains): not long enough for review or is it OK? Nobody complained so far, so I try to commit this tomorrow. Note: the date in the man page will be bumped (in cases someone notices that this is missing in the patch). Bye, Alexander. -- I go on working for the same reason a hen goes on laying eggs. -- H. L. Mencken http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID = B0063FE7 http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID = 72077137 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 11:36:36 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1A3106564A; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 11:36:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gary.jennejohn@freenet.de) Received: from mout0.freenet.de (mout0.freenet.de [IPv6:2001:748:100:40::2:2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 427A28FC0A; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 11:36:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [195.4.92.25] (helo=15.mx.freenet.de) by mout0.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID gary.jennejohn@freenet.de) (port 25) (Exim 4.72 #3) id 1NxIhP-0001O0-2b; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:36:35 +0200 Received: from p57ae1282.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([87.174.18.130]:44475 helo=ernst.jennejohn.org) by 15.mx.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID gary.jennejohn@freenet.de) (port 25) (Exim 4.72 #3) id 1NxIhO-00050d-R9; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:36:35 +0200 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:36:33 +0200 From: Gary Jennejohn To: Daniel Rodrick Message-ID: <20100401133633.23c7b1fd@ernst.jennejohn.org> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.5 (GTK+ 2.18.7; amd64-portbld-freebsd9.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-drivers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newbie question: kernel image a dynamically linked binary? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: gary.jennejohn@freenet.de List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:36:36 -0000 On Thu, 1 Apr 2010 15:53:50 +0530 Daniel Rodrick wrote: > Hello List, > > I'm a newbie and coming from Linux background, and am trying to learn > FreeBSD now. The first thing I find a little confusing is that the > final FreeBSD kernel image is shown as a DYNAMICALLY LINKED binary: > > $ > $ pwd > /boot/kernel > $ > $ file kernel > kernel: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), > dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped > $ > > How can the kernel image use shared libraries? And which ones does it > use, if any? > > Also, I cannot find out the libraries the image uses using the > traditional ldd command: > > $ ldd kernel > kernel: > kernel: signal 6 > $ > > Can some please throw some light? > file is confused. FreeBSD uses a monolithic kernel and no shared libraries are involved. However, it is possible to dynamically load modules using kldload. See the appropriate man page. -- Gary Jennejohn From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 12:01:47 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E06171065678; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 12:01:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB688FC22; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 12:01:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o31C1TZ6045279; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:01:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id o31C1TRm045278; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:01:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:01:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <201004011201.o31C1TRm045278@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, daniel.rodrick@gmail.com, freebsd-drivers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-arch User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:01:45 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: Newbie question: kernel image a dynamically linked binary? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, daniel.rodrick@gmail.com List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 12:01:47 -0000 Hi, Please don't crosspost to many lists. This topic is probably suitable for hackers@ but not for the other lists. Daniel Rodrick wrote: > I'm a newbie and coming from Linux background, and am trying to learn > FreeBSD now. The first thing I find a little confusing is that the > final FreeBSD kernel image is shown as a DYNAMICALLY LINKED binary: > > $ > $ pwd > /boot/kernel > $ > $ file kernel > kernel: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), > dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped > $ > > How can the kernel image use shared libraries? And which ones does it > use, if any? > > Also, I cannot find out the libraries the image uses using the > traditional ldd command: > > $ ldd kernel > kernel: > kernel: signal 6 > $ ldd works by actually executing the binary with a special flag for rtld(1). Compare: $ ldd /bin/sh /bin/sh: libedit.so.7 => /lib/libedit.so.7 (0x280a8000) libncurses.so.8 => /lib/libncurses.so.8 (0x280bd000) libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x280fc000) $ LD_TRACE_LOADED_OBJECTS=1 /bin/sh libedit.so.7 => /lib/libedit.so.7 (0x280a8000) libncurses.so.8 => /lib/libncurses.so.8 (0x280bd000) libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x280fc000) Of course you cannot execute the kernel (only the boot loader knows how to load and boot the kernel), so ldd fails on the kernel. But you can use objdump(1) to list dynamic dependencies. $ objdump -p /bin/sh | grep NEEDED NEEDED libedit.so.7 NEEDED libncurses.so.8 NEEDED libc.so.7 $ objdump -p /boot/kernel/kernel | grep NEEDED NEEDED hack.So As far as I know, the kernel and all kernel modules need to be dynamic binaries so the kernel linker works, which is required for dynamically loading kernel modules. So what is that "hack.So" object? It's just a dummy that's required for technical reasons. You can see the details in /sys/conf/kern.post.mk which contains this paragraph: # This is a hack. BFD "optimizes" away dynamic mode if there are no # dynamic references. We could probably do a '-Bforcedynamic' mode like # in the a.out ld. For now, this works. HACK_EXTRA_FLAGS?= -shared hack.So: Makefile :> hack.c ${CC} ${HACK_EXTRA_FLAGS} -nostdlib hack.c -o hack.So rm -f hack.c > Can some please throw some light? I hope I did. :-) Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "Unix gives you just enough rope to hang yourself -- and then a couple of more feet, just to be sure." -- Eric Allman From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 12:51:40 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 177601065673; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 12:51:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [65.122.17.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC598FC19; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 12:51:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (66.111.2.69.static.nyinternet.net [66.111.2.69]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 960AB46B0C; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:51:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhbbsd.localnet (smtp.hudson-trading.com [209.249.190.9]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AB22B8A021; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:51:38 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 07:37:53 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.12.1 (FreeBSD/7.3-CBSD-20100217; KDE/4.3.1; amd64; ; ) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201004010737.53482.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0.1 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Thu, 01 Apr 2010 08:51:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.1 at bigwig.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on bigwig.baldwin.cx Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Daniel Rodrick Subject: Re: Newbie question: kernel image a dynamically linked binary? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 12:51:40 -0000 On Thursday 01 April 2010 6:23:50 am Daniel Rodrick wrote: > Hello List, > > I'm a newbie and coming from Linux background, and am trying to learn > FreeBSD now. The first thing I find a little confusing is that the > final FreeBSD kernel image is shown as a DYNAMICALLY LINKED binary: > > $ > $ pwd > /boot/kernel > $ > $ file kernel > kernel: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), > dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped > $ > > How can the kernel image use shared libraries? And which ones does it > use, if any? > > Also, I cannot find out the libraries the image uses using the > traditional ldd command: > > $ ldd kernel > kernel: > kernel: signal 6 > $ > > Can some please throw some light? It's a hack that is used so that the kernel linker is able to link in kernel modules that are built as shared objects. The kernel is mostly built from static objects, but a single dynamic object (that is empty) is linked in: # This is a hack. BFD "optimizes" away dynamic mode if there are no # dynamic references. We could probably do a '-Bforcedynamic' mode like # in the a.out ld. For now, this works. HACK_EXTRA_FLAGS?= -shared hack.So: Makefile :> hack.c ${CC} ${HACK_EXTRA_FLAGS} -nostdlib hack.c -o hack.So rm -f hack.c -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 14:40:44 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1218C106564A; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:40:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C305E8FC23; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:40:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.3/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o31ETuWA017601; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:29:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 08:30:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20100401.083002.62409427308980027.imp@bsdimp.com> To: Alexander@Leidinger.net From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20100401133310.194173uurnj5nq4g@webmail.leidinger.net> References: <20100327101846.5b4d6b18@ernst.jennejohn.org> <20100330143824.252520tulyv7bxes@webmail.leidinger.net> <20100401133310.194173uurnj5nq4g@webmail.leidinger.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.3 on Emacs 22.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: rwatson@FreeBSD.org, gary.jennejohn@freenet.de, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CTF patch for testing/review X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:40:44 -0000 In message: <20100401133310.194173uurnj5nq4g@webmail.leidinger.net> Alexander Leidinger writes: : Quoting Alexander Leidinger (from Tue, 30 : Mar 2010 14:38:24 +0200): : : > http://www.leidinger.net/test/ctf4.diff : > : > Changes to previous one: : > - added @ to hide the CTF stuff : > - man-page (to test: "groff -mdoc -Tascii /path/to/build.7 | less") : > : > Someone with mdoc-fu should have a look if I got it right, the others : > please have a look if the place in the man-page pleases you. : > : > The changed commit log would be: : > ---snip--- : > WITH_CTF can now be specified in src.conf (not recommended, there : > are some problems with static executables), make.conf (would also : > affect ports which do not use GNU make and do not override the : > compile targets) or in the kernel config (via "makeoptions : > WITH_CTF=yes"). : > : > Additional (related) changes: : > - propagate WITH_CTF to module builds : > - do not add -g to the linker flags, it's a noop there anyway : > (at least according to the man page of ld) : > - do not add -g to CFLAGS unconditionally : > we need to have a look if it is really needed (IMO not) or if there : > is a way to add it only when WITH_CTF is used : > : > Note: ctfconvert / ctfmerge lines will not appear in the build output, : > to protect the innocent (those which do not build with WITH_CTF would : > see the shell-test and may think WITH_CTF is used). : > : > Reviewed by: imp, jhb, scottl (earlier version) : > Discussed on: arch@ : > ---snip--- : > : > What about Friday morning (GMT+2) for a commit date (if nobody : > complains): not long enough for review or is it OK? : : Nobody complained so far, so I try to commit this tomorrow. Note: the : date in the man page will be bumped (in cases someone notices that : this is missing in the patch). Go for it. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 18:54:23 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE231106564A; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 18:54:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gleb.kurtsou@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.152]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9E48FC12; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 18:54:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id d23so424711fga.13 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:54:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:cc:subject :message-id:mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:user-agent; bh=/Ycq4OE4WXsMvp4EtAIpyTAYLwkFOwZVD2I49GQouMI=; b=nrL39iHrvUR3yeLX1Bt9PJQBe4Dmy5z3Nu2mjzVYFoDZxdakZctJcGcYFWEkK8EmNr O6pT2ymeQCUSpsuEOOU9SKeRI75K7Uc2aLSCwigAJDPczerlgQ5b6gnQ3zIzNtKBugr1 Jq2+zP3iqeLNtoMfOFAV/9FwwlAZwsc9nBZ+E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-disposition:user-agent; b=hOjhCO9hrqxXx6Dyq8Ur7UylQpQ3xI3JkW0G7O6+IhTHaylfLgvdUaRgyXoPuBkfAy zLqGPK3KsY5q2+gFX7hbOJkLrqX+GovmImExjsEuETngEWth9NUMQgdMgrEJWk6ToLZ1 8D+aRxsFnd55HruNSZTbX/Rq56UuGbHZjFWYo= Received: by 10.87.48.34 with SMTP id a34mr2570942fgk.2.1270146500079; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([212.98.186.134]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e3sm9954427fga.19.2010.04.01.11.28.18 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:28:29 +0300 From: Gleb Kurtsou To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20100401182829.GA2306@tops> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: Alexander Kabaev Subject: Namecache improvements (Summer of Code proposal) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 18:54:23 -0000 I plan to submit following idea as Summer of Code project. I'd like it to be treated as a research project but not like ready-for-production solution. Comments and suggestions are welcome. Into. First of all there could be several paths to a vnode: hardlinks, nullfs mount, snapshot dirs, etc. There are several traditional ways of solving problem of getting full path from cache: Pass granular updates to namecace on file system change or cache full path for vnode. This approach was taken by Solaris, XNU and many others. In FreeBSD on file remove or rename cache for entire directory is purged. Namecache in Dragonfly keeps references to vnodes from the path root to the given vnode. Linux does similar thing but its VFS is very different. But this approach doesn't work for network filesystems well enough, there are tweaks to make NFS usable. AFAIK Linux also had problems with NFS due to its VFS design (long ago), there is a d_validate call used to verify if "cached" entry (dentry) is valid. Such problems arise because of stateless and nameless operation of NFS. Random thoughts to make my intent clear. I do not like idea of keeping all vnodes from path root around, it serves no good purpose and creates another way of having vnode in semi-valid state. Keeping cache in sync by updating it from outside of filesystem is hard, unreliable and error prone. Basically there is no reliable way to find out if path has changed for network filesystem or nullfs mount. Our VFS keeps names and vnodes separate, the same happens on filesystem level: one inode, one vnode, several names (just a hard link); by design there is no easy way of doing reverse lookup (getting name for an inode/vnode). Proposal. Generalize dirhash into generic directory cache (dircache) updated by filesystem itself. It's much like dirhash in UFS or dircache in pefs (rather different from dirhash, it's more like cache for a network filesystem). Dircache entry ("strong entry") contains inode numbers, mount struct pointer, internal filesystem data if need and contains no vnode reference in general case. Filesystem keeps entries in sync on create/rename/remove/etc. By 'no vnode reference' I mean that dircache entry may exist without vnode reference attached to it. On VOP_LOOKUP, VOP_CREATE and VFS_GET cache entry is updated with vnode reference. Vnode reference is removed on VOP_RECLAIM. Unify current namecache and dircache. There are strong and weak entries in the cache. Strong added by dircache, all entires added by oldcache (current cache_*) are weak (inode number = 0). If there's no inode number for entry it's weak. Snapshot directory for filesystem using dircache is likely to be weak. Nullfs and NFS entries are all weak. Only dircache entries may be strong. There is no weak entries without vnode reference in the cache at any time. Strong nodes are permanent, they remain in cache until there are references to them. Cache remains consistent, i.e. if cache grows large only leaf strong nodes that do not reference vnode removed. Entries removed not one by one but all directory entries at once, so that cache remains valid. It also means, that entries forming full path to mount point are always in cache. Traditional-Weak entries behave the same way as in current cache (removed with cache_purge(vp)). Filesystem uses either dircache or oldcache but not both. Strong nodes form a Directed Acyclic Graph supporting reliable full path resolve (among strong nodes only). It needs more thinking, componentname struct should be extended with support for "namespaces". Resolving weak entries remains the same, there is not much one can do without knowing that cache is valid, i.e. relay on namecache to get full path only in cases it's known to be reliable, do not try to make it reliable with different tweaks. Vnode won't contain v_cache_src/v_cache_dst lists, just a reference to cache entry. Rewriting existing filesystems to support dircache won't be necessary oldcache should remain fully functional. Dircache is intended only for local filesystems, it can be extended with validate operation to become useful for cases like nullfs. Additional goal is to make it possible to get vnode for *strong* dircache entry by traversing the graph and, if vnode doesn't exist, calling VFS_GET(inode number) for the entry, thus giving considerable performance improvement, avoiding VOP_LOOKUP calls for all elements in path. Access check issues are not hard to solve, there is VFS_GETACL. I do not mean that vnode can be created for arbitrary dircache entry, full path of vnodes has to be created at least once, ACLs cached, etc. But, ignoring this goal, filesystem level data, namely inode number, is still necessary for dircache to remain connected with filesystem. In other words, namecache+dircache is a per-filesystem meta data cache, it's also aware of vnodes if there are any attached to entries. Namecache becomes not a VFS subsystem, but moves in between VFS and filesystem code. Anyway there is internal name handling in filesystems, in UFS case there is dirhash which partially does what dircache should, the idea is to expose it to upper levels and use it. Thanks, Gleb. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 19:29:25 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80418106564A for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 19:29:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25ADC8FC1A for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 19:29:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.3/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o31JO8Ub020718 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:24:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:24:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20100401.132414.151475392393136085.imp@bsdimp.com> To: arch@freebsd.org From: "M. Warner Losh" X-Mailer: Mew version 6.3 on Emacs 22.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Removing support for NOFOO X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:29:25 -0000 I'm planning on removing the support for the NOFOO variant of building. This has been obsolete since before the branch that created stable/5. As this file will be empty afterwards, I plan on removing it in a bit. Comments? Warner Index: sys.mk =================================================================== --- sys.mk (revision 206051) +++ sys.mk (working copy) @@ -355,5 +355,4 @@ .endif -.include .include Index: bsd.compat.mk =================================================================== --- bsd.compat.mk (revision 206051) +++ bsd.compat.mk (working copy) @@ -1,41 +1,2 @@ # $FreeBSD$ -.if !defined(BURN_BRIDGES) -.for oldnew in \ - NOATM:NO_ATM \ - NOCLEANDIR:NO_CLEANDIR \ - NOCRYPT:NO_CRYPT \ - NODOCCOMPRESS:NO_DOCCOMPRESS \ - NOEXTRADEPEND:NO_EXTRADEPEND \ - NOFORTH:NO_FORTH \ - NOFSCHG:NO_FSCHG \ - NOGAMES:NO_GAMES \ - NOHTML:NO_HTML \ - NOINET6:NO_INET6 \ - NOINFO:NO_INFO \ - NOINFOCOMPRESS:NO_INFOCOMPRESS \ - NOINSTALLLIB:NO_INSTALLLIB \ - NOLIBPTHREAD:NO_LIBPTHREAD \ - NOLIBTHR:NO_LIBTHR \ - NOLINT:NO_LINT \ - NOMAN:NO_MAN \ - NOMANCOMPRESS:NO_MANCOMPRESS \ - NOMLINKS:NO_MLINKS \ - NOOBJ:NO_OBJ \ - NOPAM:NO_PAM \ - NOPIC:NO_PIC \ - NOPROFILE:NO_PROFILE \ - NO_RCMNDS:NO_RCMDS \ - NOSHARE:NO_SHARE \ - NOSHARED:NO_SHARED \ - NOTAGS:NO_TAGS -.for old in ${oldnew:C/:.*//} -.for new in ${oldnew:C/.*://} -.if defined(${old}) && !defined(${new}) -.warning ${old} is deprecated in favour of ${new} -${new}= ${${old}} -.endif -.endfor -.endfor -.endfor -.endif Index: Makefile =================================================================== --- Makefile (revision 206051) +++ Makefile (working copy) @@ -2,7 +2,7 @@ # @(#)Makefile 8.1 (Berkeley) 6/8/93 FILES= bsd.README -FILES+= bsd.compat.mk bsd.cpu.mk bsd.dep.mk bsd.doc.mk bsd.endian.mk +FILES+= bsd.cpu.mk bsd.dep.mk bsd.doc.mk bsd.endian.mk FILES+= bsd.files.mk bsd.incs.mk bsd.info.mk bsd.init.mk FILES+= bsd.kmod.mk FILES+= bsd.lib.mk bsd.libnames.mk bsd.links.mk bsd.man.mk bsd.nls.mk Index: bsd.init.mk =================================================================== --- bsd.init.mk (revision 206051) +++ bsd.init.mk (working copy) @@ -9,7 +9,6 @@ .if exists(${.CURDIR}/../Makefile.inc) .include "${.CURDIR}/../Makefile.inc" .endif -.include .include .MAIN: all .endif # !target(____) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 21:22:45 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBB281065676; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:22:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 782E98FC0A; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:22:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ADCD1FFC7B; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:22:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A838E84854; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:05:01 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: gary.jennejohn@freenet.de References: <20100401133633.23c7b1fd@ernst.jennejohn.org> <8639zftm56.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:05:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <8639zftm56.fsf@ds4.des.no> ("Dag-Erling =?utf-8?Q?Sm=C3=B8rg?= =?utf-8?Q?rav=22's?= message of "Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:03:49 +0200") Message-ID: <86y6h7s7iq.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Daniel Rodrick , freebsd-drivers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newbie question: kernel image a dynamically linked binary? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 21:22:45 -0000 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > File is right. The kernel contains relocation entries so kernel modules > can be linked against it. "relocation entries" is possibly not the right term, someone with better knowledge of ELF will have to correct me. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 21:22:45 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C30D9106567A; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:22:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED288FC13; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:22:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AEDD1FFC77; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:22:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0BED784852; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:03:50 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: gary.jennejohn@freenet.de References: <20100401133633.23c7b1fd@ernst.jennejohn.org> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:03:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20100401133633.23c7b1fd@ernst.jennejohn.org> (Gary Jennejohn's message of "Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:36:33 +0200") Message-ID: <8639zftm56.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Daniel Rodrick , freebsd-drivers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newbie question: kernel image a dynamically linked binary? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 21:22:45 -0000 Gary Jennejohn writes: > Daniel Rodrick writes: > > $ file kernel > > kernel: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), > > dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped > file is confused. FreeBSD uses a monolithic kernel and no shared > libraries are involved. However, it is possible to dynamically load > modules using kldload. See the appropriate man page. File is right. The kernel contains relocation entries so kernel modules can be linked against it. "monolithic" means something else entirely. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 21:22:45 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7DB6106567B; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:22:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE9F8FC15; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:22:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447971FFC76; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:22:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C96BD84567; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:24:28 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Xin LI References: <4BACFE18.7010309@delphij.net> <86wrwylji0.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4BAD509B.3080805@delphij.net> <86ljdelhgd.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4BAD62CF.6090901@delphij.net> <868w9elego.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20100331102509.GI34892@gahrfit.gahr.ch> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:24:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Xin LI's message of "Wed, 31 Mar 2010 03:41:13 -0700") Message-ID: <86pr2ksphv.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: d@delphij.net, gahr@freebsd.org, the_paya@gentoo.org, ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Alexander Logvinov Subject: Re: [RFC] Reduce namespace pollution on zlib.h X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 21:22:46 -0000 Xin LI writes: > I will merge an upstream change from zlib, which basically unexpose > LFS stuff on FreeBSD, and I plan to keep the off_t bits =3D=3D 64. > However, I would highly recommend ports maintainers to push upstream > fix for LFS64 definition removal since they are wrong on FreeBSD LFS64 is not correct on Linux either; just #define _FILE_OFFSET_BITS 64 before #include and use struct stat / stat() as usual. The AC_SYS_LARGEFILE autoconf macro takes care of that for you, provided you remember to #include "config.h" in your code. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 21:50:58 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090AB1065675 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:50:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C13E18FC14 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:50:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 180371FFC22; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:50:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id F129F84463; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 23:50:56 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <20100401.132414.151475392393136085.imp@bsdimp.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 23:50:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20100401.132414.151475392393136085.imp@bsdimp.com> (M. Warner Losh's message of "Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:24:14 -0600 (MDT)") Message-ID: <868w96rge7.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing support for NOFOO X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 21:50:58 -0000 "M. Warner Losh" writes: > I'm planning on removing the support for the NOFOO variant of > building. Go for it! DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 22:17:02 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A660D106564A for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 22:17:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx21.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 523B68FC1A for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 22:17:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 13426 invoked by uid 399); 1 Apr 2010 22:17:01 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 1 Apr 2010 22:17:01 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4BB51B5B.1050606@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:16:59 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100330 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 22:17:02 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: RIPEMD160 Greetings, SUMMARY On February 21 I sent a message to freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org detailing the current state of BIND on FreeBSD, and plans for the future. You can see that message here: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2010-February/009908.html In that message I asked for feedback on my plans for dealing with BIND in the base. There wasn't much response on the lists, however I did receive a great deal of response privately, all more or less to the effect of, "Do we really need to continue having BIND in the base at all?" After careful consideration and private discussion about this issue the conclusion has been reached that the answer to this question is, "No." Therefore we will be removing BIND from the FreeBSD base. BACKGROUND "Back in the day" when the FreeBSD project started there was really only one show in the DNS town, BIND. In the last 10 years several truly viable, first-class DNS options have been developed, in both the authoritative and resolving server spaces. There are ports available for each of these options, and many FreeBSD users take advantage of them. There are of course also ports available for all supported BIND versions, as well as dns/bind9 for BIND version 9.3 which has been EOL'ed by ISC but is still in FreeBSD version 6. This also leads to the issue mentioned in the post above, the desynchronization between FreeBSD and ISC release schedules. While FreeBSD 6 is scheduled to EOL in November of this year, it contains BIND version 9.3.6-P1, which has long been EOL. There are a number of problems related to upgrading the version of BIND in a release branch of FreeBSD. Given the ease with which FreeBSD users can upgrade BIND with the ports tree, and given the characteristics of the vulnerabilities that have come to light with BIND 9.3.x to date, this hasn't been a problem. There is no guarantee that this will continue to be the case. This problem will reappear again in FreeBSD version 7 with BIND 9.4, and FreeBSD version 8 with BIND 9.6. PROS This change will have several advantages. 1) Users of all FreeBSD versions will be able to have easy access to the latest versions of BIND, and an easy upgrade path that does not involve a full OS upgrade. 2) The release synchronization problem mentioned above will no longer be a problem. 3) Users of other DNS solutions will no longer need to customize their build using the various WITH/WITHOUT_BIND* knobs. CONS Of course this change will have some costs. Users of named who rely on the current defaults will have some change management to deal with, however the costs will be minimal. The one area that has come up repeatedly in previous discussions about this topic is that users like having access to the command line tools dig, host, and nslookup. To deal with that issue I will be creating a bind-tools port so that those who want just those tools can easily add them, without the overhead of the rest of the BIND suite. If anyone has suggestions for other BIND tools that should be included in the port, please let me know. IMPLEMENTATION TIMELINE I will be removing BIND from HEAD today. Removal from the other branches will occur far enough in advance of their upcoming releases to ensure that the users have a chance to shake things out first. I'll also be committing the bind-tools and bind-config ports today so that users will continue to have easy access to the work I've done on named.conf, rc.d/named, etc. I have been maintaining BIND in the base for almost 8 years now, and while it's been challenging in a lot of ways, it's also been a great privilege to be able to help the FreeBSD community in this way. I can't say that I'll miss the drama of src updates though. :) Many happy returns of the day, Doug - -- ... and that's just a little bit of history repeating. -- Propellerheads Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEAREDAAYFAku1G1sACgkQyIakK9Wy8PuPgQCfdrhgscMQ+KPLcoRXx66f4f6M T8wAniZqULdwM+4oRsbOkFSDZIceWn0u =Syor -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 1 22:57:00 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F85106564A for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 22:57:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter.thoenen@yahoo.com) Received: from web111402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (web111402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [67.195.15.138]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 82CD88FC1B for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 22:57:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 28762 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Apr 2010 22:30:20 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1270161020; bh=ft+a1KCdZIWgKEX1ROlb97tzeOFJ+/rZff2vCH7aXHE=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=beZgE3kalXA/J1QyC7dPII3e1+k/6yoEVzQ3WXD3+TTA7AWkDCPolpoD72F6adFNxTUAtT1jkp/jrdhr1yT5UNu+lGjbIC97Dj51/YP6Kb7MAldJaeNJ4CZm/l6w/zVUOOc7EInuRJIgtvt/xRxYp4bA6w5g/OUvVnOcxa1cYXY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=dUmpew0tmEXPzRsm52AmhRc2OwD1HsSjQTYjKpaLwMpjRdrBsCpiN2FO4MU+dX6QgKtCfaokufhZ7ItHiGBFMYh/4HF9as07q9cyHjlLDsSud2c0pWJ0TZRtWB0CdzaSPHjfAXEF5T0pn9RZEaB6UG2d0UU8rg2JEVA9JHKC75I=; Message-ID: <328862.28246.qm@web111402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 4qxas0wVM1lJq9WpN3Ztg8xbTKaxpQe3H7ifpCqKg1PPqc_ rvupGziQkTT8LC.TfbpDFZnyUS_4.pDxSL1rddcWVv7MqQzolfVXPDzPEmI9 NYmMdw5VjP4Sfzpaaa9UaeS0vI2bjqvpWNQpe52gkEei4KMhR0Wm_kcKtKZc ghJvL72co_69N4eoL9LRSB9thrkajibCeAZ_KKpnPCDQO3i3HpZRyWxmaaK9 j1Hr4nEvsIPZk13JEW5A47zdL9zWGqYlv03yHsg10VLPsLswRbXyKUuOAfj1 H3NFuAopXf8cV_rwXkyp8EOZBXapmVhqbHlFOnwk- Received: from [140.90.201.103] by web111402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:30:20 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/10.0.8 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 15:30:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Thoenen To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <4BB51B5B.1050606@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 22:57:00 -0000 May I only hope this is legit and not a April Fool's joke :) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 03:48:42 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3972106564A; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 03:48:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from randy@psg.com) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::36]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB7108FC08; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 03:48:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxXs8-000PsQ-Bp; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 03:48:40 +0000 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 12:48:36 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Peter Thoenen In-Reply-To: <328862.28246.qm@web111402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4BB51B5B.1050606@FreeBSD.org> <328862.28246.qm@web111402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: Doug Barton , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 03:48:42 -0000 > May I only hope this is legit and not a April Fool's joke :) actually, as an unbound user, i would be quite happy to have bind removed. bloated, ever-buggy, config religion, ... randy From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 04:28:35 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 654CF106566C; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 04:28:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhellenthal@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gw0-f54.google.com (mail-gw0-f54.google.com [74.125.83.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B68018FC17; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 04:28:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by gwaa20 with SMTP id a20so414236gwa.13 for ; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 21:28:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cOkDSYpQKgb3Y35jZiCv3qFqOnUI6zT5VXY4qxkQ2hI=; b=NbkLBz7+2Hq4UkYV7JbNHvZ4e/ZLxqTEAPORRz3UyC36m/YLqYtEuprnWW58G/Pq3U D50AzolTQ5EvaMaYNDDn86ngmvMNKpnJO/2J9ZpeNJ9KYEXU+I0HQvBP/pkfObq3SFr9 XkfGFVmnnfyEkwMeISAP9H2KGVpcnPDw0149c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=g6DRsp3Xsf7u37im0kNtAoNa5PcSSFvop0rhQEwf5MUfojPCEBeMuke46vFaEngrAv HHjMrvygBEdsY55yyw8GRMsNwj/6m1C7aE/FV5HO5VF5YluDhmT+rGopdS+mBfdB9nVP 05vevPJX/Dj3Q4uY5tcDyLLJ15ZOEnXUgHwuA= Received: by 10.150.128.39 with SMTP id a39mr2099971ybd.257.1270182514035; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 21:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centel.dataix.local (adsl-99-181-143-247.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net [99.181.143.247]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 21sm1437950iwn.11.2010.04.01.21.28.28 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 01 Apr 2010 21:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Sender: "J. Hellenthal" Message-ID: <4BB5724D.7080906@dataix.net> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 00:27:57 -0400 From: jhell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100331 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Bush References: <4BB51B5B.1050606@FreeBSD.org> <328862.28246.qm@web111402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Peter Thoenen , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Doug Barton , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 04:28:35 -0000 On 04/01/2010 23:48, Randy Bush wrote: >> May I only hope this is legit and not a April Fool's joke :) > > actually, as an unbound user, i would be quite happy to have bind > removed. bloated, ever-buggy, config religion, ... > > randy At least I hope that this will be removed and added to the distribution as a package upon release time. -- jhell From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 05:24:13 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6465106566B; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 05:24:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stas@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mx0.deglitch.com (backbone.deglitch.com [IPv6:2001:16d8:fffb:4::abba]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356828FC08; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 05:24:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from orion.SpringDaemons.com (unknown [99.48.191.9]) by mx0.deglitch.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 15E638FC4E; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:24:11 +0400 (MSD) Received: from orion (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.SpringDaemons.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C8D423985D; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 22:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 22:24:04 -0700 From: Stanislav Sedov To: Doug Barton Message-Id: <20100401222404.77a14a02.stas@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <4BB51B5B.1050606@FreeBSD.org> References: <4BB51B5B.1050606@FreeBSD.org> Organization: The FreeBSD Project X-Mailer: carrier-pigeon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA1"; boundary="Signature=_Thu__1_Apr_2010_22_24_04_-0700_JeELB8c2KyR9N.sP" Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 05:24:13 -0000 --Signature=_Thu__1_Apr_2010_22_24_04_-0700_JeELB8c2KyR9N.sP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:16:59 -0700 Doug Barton mentioned: >=20 > Of course this change will have some costs. Users of named who rely on > the current defaults will have some change management to deal with, > however the costs will be minimal. The one area that has come up > repeatedly in previous discussions about this topic is that users like > having access to the command line tools dig, host, and nslookup. To deal > with that issue I will be creating a bind-tools port so that those who > want just those tools can easily add them, without the overhead of the > rest of the BIND suite. If anyone has suggestions for other BIND tools > that should be included in the port, please let me know. Hey, Doug! While it certainly might make sense to drop BIND out of the base, I'm not sure dropping bind tools as well from it is the best decision. How hard it will be to continue maintaining bind tools inside the base (so the=20 critical ones like dig and nslookup still will be available), while moving the rest of it (the server itself and supporting tools) to the port? --=20 Stanislav Sedov ST4096-RIPE --Signature=_Thu__1_Apr_2010_22_24_04_-0700_JeELB8c2KyR9N.sP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJLtX95AAoJEL8lojEJL9nwbJgQALOXVTF3xaj0lDVAsXtgFSWJ nYYts36/Msoe9AE8lTWoFnXsXfkLPaaqkcLOu7mGwBOIbbJ7ZfSY/KgTiUdEuha+ dXglF6dWmPfVO+ROZNtwE3MgCKdWR4o8/X/iAfyTKEf7L1exoRHdObLBUXQuYtmn 5mzORU84C6PkAyuJ6NIAs2A56yCmQv7L5fd3shDErkj5yMmF43dobnXBIeFPg8h2 Jo61HA6EhnZ4fvxcgPe9pkEAk2k2XQQYwY+aXVXGLHzuBI1P2WSFG48eB1eNG8cp 6rWMSirJrhKG7PzHSzVgUZ0PDWfQl9syRCJupNyAXHmP+f3dFguecvCmDADtnn3W js79ZkftYSHo++okUC1nXImh4ow8Z0RZ5xYAl4NYbgkAq7Pe3rMr5UADD/GwTM5w O/QRPRU4cPjBMAAANPyZXXSliuIk21CDbSL1Li/jI44Z+PJK/qSCGQxvZRsjgEnC C6HC4/dXT90NzHkNYUATlD9JjqCP92B89qikBA7nbbiq4uhcTUuvOMTcI8apAhj6 xT/Rr14BzCXTj1Ojr2HA4aCYc1PNdH4nVWDogiy9yIfopwEtTcUnz76UJRZXq8RA 2pWekU5uHjtk6IDfxfGXnDTM1HPKDk3mmiZU3nmojEnuG/0lvPHZ6suzEIE3X6fa 6A4HEP9NuTKm+ckCl+rj =J0FH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Thu__1_Apr_2010_22_24_04_-0700_JeELB8c2KyR9N.sP-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 06:24:55 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B96B31065678; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 06:24:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bu7cher@yandex.ru) Received: from forward4.mail.yandex.net (forward4.mail.yandex.net [77.88.46.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A3B8FC15; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 06:24:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp1.mail.yandex.net (smtp1.mail.yandex.net [77.88.46.101]) by forward4.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 586F36AD8D06; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:11:51 +0400 (MSD) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1270188711; bh=38x1M9+CLJ3qnCE+MxigENr+80WlFwQlNSbQbiXm/00=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=rTaZxsKudMWs2bwQLDbjXD8HjKhmnvO5D+Yk5kyMT/WBstL6FDfl2Av4rTpa6IDAY 3MWKZQR3lcSKwMnzEfxZk5OFX8ZIr7RMWDQwGQz/JwQIDQj8ncL2Xq9SO15JtMLP0E yvJjmjSdxY7sjIwczWxuW0IS7hHdTHM2M/s1yuYY= Received: from [127.0.0.1] (ns.kirov.so-cdu.ru [77.72.136.145]) by smtp1.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTPSA id 1002AE6006E; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:11:51 +0400 (MSD) Message-ID: <4BB58AA6.1040600@yandex.ru> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:11:50 +0400 From: "Andrey V. Elsukov" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.5 (FreeBSD/20051231) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stanislav Sedov References: <4BB51B5B.1050606@FreeBSD.org> <20100401222404.77a14a02.stas@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20100401222404.77a14a02.stas@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yandex-TimeMark: 1270188711 X-Yandex-Spam: 1 X-Yandex-Front: smtp1.mail.yandex.net Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Doug Barton , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 06:24:55 -0000 On 02.04.2010 9:24, Stanislav Sedov wrote: > While it certainly might make sense to drop BIND out of the base, I'm not > sure dropping bind tools as well from it is the best decision. How hard > it will be to continue maintaining bind tools inside the base (so the > critical ones like dig and nslookup still will be available), while moving > the rest of it (the server itself and supporting tools) to the port? Hi, All. I'm agree with Stas. If it is not so hard to maintain "bind-tools" in the base, It is very useful to still having them in base system. -- WBR, Andrey V. Elsukov From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 08:26:14 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9FC106566C; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:26:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from randy@psg.com) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::36]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE06F8FC16; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:26:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxcCk-0000YN-Gq; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:26:14 +0000 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:26:13 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Stanislav Sedov In-Reply-To: <20100401222404.77a14a02.stas@FreeBSD.org> References: <4BB51B5B.1050606@FreeBSD.org> <20100401222404.77a14a02.stas@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Doug Barton , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:26:15 -0000 > While it certainly might make sense to drop BIND out of the base, I'm not > sure dropping bind tools as well from it is the best decision. How hard > it will be to continue maintaining bind tools inside the base (so the > critical ones like dig and nslookup still will be available), while moving > the rest of it (the server itself and supporting tools) to the port? i don't mind if dig, doc, et alia are not in base, as long as they are a separate port from the bind hippo. randy From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 08:32:30 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF811065717; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:32:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stas@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mx0.deglitch.com (backbone.deglitch.com [IPv6:2001:16d8:fffb:4::abba]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 886228FC1D; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:32:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sputnik.SpringDaemons.com (c-67-188-12-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.188.12.68]) by mx0.deglitch.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7F7708FC4E; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:32:26 +0400 (MSD) Received: from sputnik.SpringDaemons.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sputnik.SpringDaemons.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 53E76B874; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 01:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 01:33:53 -0700 From: Stanislav Sedov To: Randy Bush Message-Id: <20100402013353.f544e8ad.stas@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: References: <4BB51B5B.1050606@FreeBSD.org> <20100401222404.77a14a02.stas@FreeBSD.org> Organization: The FreeBSD Project X-XMPP: ssedov@jabber.ru X-Voice: +7 916 849 20 23 X-PGP-Fingerprin: F21E D6CC 5626 9609 6CE2 A385 2BF5 5993 EB26 9581 X-Mailer: carrier-pigeon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Doug Barton , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:32:30 -0000 On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:26:13 +0900 Randy Bush mentioned: > > i don't mind if dig, doc, et alia are not in base, as long as they are a > separate port from the bind hippo. > The major benefit of having them in the base is the ability to cross-compile them when building the distribution for another platform. Ports doesn't support cross-compilation yet, and it would be a pity to find yourself bootstrapping another tiny arm platform and having to use ports to have a usable system. -- Stanislav Sedov ST4096-RIPE From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 08:55:10 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53193106566C; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:55:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F33668FC1A; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:55:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter-phk.freebsd.dk [192.168.48.2]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5C28647F; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:55:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o328t7dA011352; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:55:07 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Stanislav Sedov From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 02 Apr 2010 01:33:53 MST." <20100402013353.f544e8ad.stas@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:55:07 +0000 Message-ID: <11351.1270198507@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Randy Bush , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Doug Barton , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:55:10 -0000 In message <20100402013353.f544e8ad.stas@FreeBSD.org>, Stanislav Sedov writes: >On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:26:13 +0900 >Randy Bush mentioned: >Ports doesn't support cross-compilation yet, >and it would be a pity to find yourself >bootstrapping another tiny arm platform and >having to use ports to have a usable system. The result of the RFC was that bind is not a mandatory component to make "a usable system", so you argument suffers from bad logic. The fact that you want BIND on your arm, is no different from somebody else wanting postfix on a MIPS. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 09:15:50 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 905391065674; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:15:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stas@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mx0.deglitch.com (backbone.deglitch.com [IPv6:2001:16d8:fffb:4::abba]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42CDC8FC0C; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:15:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sputnik.SpringDaemons.com (c-67-188-12-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.188.12.68]) by mx0.deglitch.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 639EF8FC4E; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:15:48 +0400 (MSD) Received: from sputnik.SpringDaemons.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sputnik.SpringDaemons.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FE17B874; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 02:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 02:17:15 -0700 From: Stanislav Sedov To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" Message-Id: <20100402021715.669838e0.stas@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <11351.1270198507@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <20100402013353.f544e8ad.stas@FreeBSD.org> <11351.1270198507@critter.freebsd.dk> Organization: The FreeBSD Project X-XMPP: ssedov@jabber.ru X-Voice: +7 916 849 20 23 X-PGP-Fingerprin: F21E D6CC 5626 9609 6CE2 A385 2BF5 5993 EB26 9581 X-Mailer: carrier-pigeon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Randy Bush , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Doug Barton , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:15:50 -0000 On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:55:07 +0000 "Poul-Henning Kamp" mentioned: > In message <20100402013353.f544e8ad.stas@FreeBSD.org>, Stanislav Sedov writes: > >On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:26:13 +0900 > >Randy Bush mentioned: > > >Ports doesn't support cross-compilation yet, > >and it would be a pity to find yourself > >bootstrapping another tiny arm platform and > >having to use ports to have a usable system. > > The result of the RFC was that bind is not a mandatory component > to make "a usable system", so you argument suffers from bad logic. > > The fact that you want BIND on your arm, is no different from > somebody else wanting postfix on a MIPS. Sorry, I think I was not clear enough. What I actually want is to have a couple of the important tools in the base while moving everything also in ports. By important tools I mean nslookup (and maybe dig), and at least the first one is cruicial for the system bringup. That one is also nice to have on the livecd, which currently includes (I believe) only the base system. -- Stanislav Sedov ST4096-RIPE From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 09:17:59 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E11F4106566C for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:17:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from uqs@spoerlein.net) Received: from acme.spoerlein.net (acme.spoerlein.net [IPv6:2001:470:9a47::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C5E8FC27 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:17:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from acme.spoerlein.net (localhost.spoerlein.net [IPv6:::1]) by acme.spoerlein.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF8705C56; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:17:58 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=spoerlein.net; s=dkim200908; t=1270199878; bh=Ap8ASbsw9xGCvPh8bMNhzwFRBbhm0SCkYlT5vH7xQdY=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:In-Reply-To; b=t8CUX5v4v4+rRs84EU4FDk7j9hhL+/hbI14TDeM4ectYkeckQGmOmzXH/jJFTeldS FQLjzqbrwFtIKzGPgufk1FXAWbHNbcNQLMnuiJOn/wtDZRgSQNRh86gioDIM4aVW89 NCrLTzEnb2ASStMXPENFSID6nVZGYx7AqlNeHb28= Received: (from uqs@localhost) by acme.spoerlein.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id o329HwN3090675; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:17:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uqs@spoerlein.net) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:17:58 +0200 From: Ulrich =?utf-8?B?U3DDtnJsZWlu?= To: "M. Warner Losh" Message-ID: <20100402091758.GP85798@acme.spoerlein.net> Mail-Followup-To: "M. Warner Losh" , arch@freebsd.org References: <20100401.132414.151475392393136085.imp@bsdimp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100401.132414.151475392393136085.imp@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing support for NOFOO X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:18:00 -0000 On Thu, 01.04.2010 at 13:24:14 -0600, M. Warner Losh wrote: > I'm planning on removing the support for the NOFOO variant of > building. This has been obsolete since before the branch that created > stable/5. As this file will be empty afterwards, I plan on removing > it in a bit. > > Comments? Yes, several ports' Makefiles still use the old spelling of, eg. NOMAN. Not sure if that will break installation, and head is the right place to find out. Perhaps an exp run can be scheduled, or is that too big a cannon? Regards, Uli From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 09:24:53 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5668106566B; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:24:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91DF48FC19; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:24:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter-phk.freebsd.dk [192.168.48.2]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57D5C6445; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:24:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o329OpiN011598; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:24:52 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Stanislav Sedov From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 02 Apr 2010 02:17:15 MST." <20100402021715.669838e0.stas@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:24:51 +0000 Message-ID: <11597.1270200291@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Randy Bush , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, Doug Barton , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:24:53 -0000 In message <20100402021715.669838e0.stas@FreeBSD.org>, Stanislav Sedov writes: >On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:55:07 +0000 >"Poul-Henning Kamp" mentioned: >Sorry, I think I was not clear enough. Sorry for misunderstanding. Yes, the case can certainly be made that DNS query tool belongs in the base system. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 10:28:06 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B3C106566B for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:28:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@koitsu.dyndns.org) Received: from qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.40]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0B68FC19 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:28:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.51]) by qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 0aEw1e00716AWCUA4aEwKG; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:14:56 +0000 Received: from koitsu.dyndns.org ([98.248.46.159]) by omta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 0aEv1e0013S48mS8SaEvne; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:14:56 +0000 Received: by icarus.home.lan (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5436B9B419; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 03:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 03:14:54 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20100402101454.GA62089@icarus.home.lan> References: <20100402021715.669838e0.stas@FreeBSD.org> <11597.1270200291@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <11597.1270200291@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: Randy Bush , Doug Barton , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, Stanislav Sedov , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:28:06 -0000 On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 09:24:51AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20100402021715.669838e0.stas@FreeBSD.org>, Stanislav Sedov writes: > >On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:55:07 +0000 > >"Poul-Henning Kamp" mentioned: > > >Sorry, I think I was not clear enough. > > Sorry for misunderstanding. > > Yes, the case can certainly be made that DNS query tool belongs in the > base system. I disagree (so what else is new?) It should be kept out of the base system. KISS: Doug pulling BIND out of the base system / going ports-only = excellent. Doug making a separate port for BIND-esque DNS query/maintenance tools = excellent. Both of the above can be made into packages. Vendors who use FreeBSD can incorporate said package(s) into their build infrastructure. Folks who do not have Internet connections (yet for some reason want said DNS tools) can install the package(s) from CD/DVD/USB. I want the bikeshed to be black. :-) [1]: FreeBSD really needs to move away from the "base system" as a concept, as I've ranted about in the past. Or if it cannot, the "base system" needs to start using pkg_* (somehow) for use, and src.conf WITHOUT_xxx (where xxx = some software) removed. Concept being: "I don't need Kerberos; pkg_delete base-krb5. I also don't need lib32; pkg_delete base-lib32". Beautiful concept, hard to implement due to libraries being yanked out from underneathe binaries that are linked to them. But you get the idea. -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc@parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 10:52:21 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EE2C10656C1; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:52:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [65.122.17.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBBBD8FC13; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:52:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [65.122.17.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 857C646B2C; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 06:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:52:20 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <11351.1270198507@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: References: <11351.1270198507@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Randy Bush , Doug Barton , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, Stanislav Sedov , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:52:21 -0000 On Fri, 2 Apr 2010, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > The result of the RFC was that bind is not a mandatory component to make "a > usable system", so you argument suffers from bad logic. With an eye on the date of Doug's suggestive e-mail, I actually am concerned that we maintain support for DNSSEC validation in the base system. If this can be accomplished by keeping DNS debugging tools and the lightweight resolver in the base, then I'm fine with that world view. However, if we can't do DNSSEC record validation without installing the BIND package, then that worries me. As we go forward, DNSSEC is going to become increasingly important, and being unable to bootstrap a system will be a problem, and it will become an increasingly critical part of the security bootstrap process for networked systems. While some DNSSEC folk consider it anathema ("DNS is not a directory service!"), the ability to securely distribute keying material via an existing network service has enourmous value: for example, early DNSSEC prototypes in the late 1990's/early 2000's included SSH key distribution via cert records in DNSSEC. Similarly, as proposals to tie DHCP security and mobility security to DNSSEC expand, any decision to require a package to do DNSSEC would mean any component depending on that also has to be outside our base. If all requirements along these lines are met by the lightweight resolver, then this is less of a concern. Robert From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 10:55:18 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5860410656AA for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:55:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sthaug@nethelp.no) Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (bizet.nethelp.no [195.1.209.33]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 884738FC1F for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:55:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 8369 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2010 10:28:36 -0000 Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (HELO localhost) (195.1.209.33) by bizet.nethelp.no with SMTP; 2 Apr 2010 10:28:36 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 12:28:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20100402.122836.41723967.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: freebsd@jdc.parodius.com From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: <20100402101454.GA62089@icarus.home.lan> References: <20100402021715.669838e0.stas@FreeBSD.org> <11597.1270200291@critter.freebsd.dk> <20100402101454.GA62089@icarus.home.lan> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: stas@FreeBSD.org, dougb@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, randy@psg.com, phk@phk.freebsd.dk, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 10:55:18 -0000 > [1]: FreeBSD really needs to move away from the "base system" as a > concept, as I've ranted about in the past. Strongly disagree. > Or if it cannot, the "base > system" needs to start using pkg_* (somehow) for use, and src.conf > WITHOUT_xxx (where xxx = some software) removed. Concept being: "I > don't need Kerberos; pkg_delete base-krb5. I also don't need lib32; > pkg_delete base-lib32". Beautiful concept, hard to implement due to > libraries being yanked out from underneathe binaries that are linked to > them. But you get the idea. This *might* be workable. However, in general - a large part of the reason why I use FreeBSD is that the FreeBSD base system gives me most of what I want, in *one* well defined chunk, *without* having to install a zillion extra packages, and without umpteen different versions of config files and locations for the important information. So please don't destroy this. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 11:14:41 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38BE91065673 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:14:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erikt@midgard.homeip.net) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EB78FC0C for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:14:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from c83-255-48-78.bredband.comhem.se ([83.255.48.78]:60484 helo=falcon.midgard.homeip.net) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Nxepb-0006hp-4f for freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 13:14:33 +0200 Received: (qmail 54995 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2010 13:14:30 +0200 Received: from owl.midgard.homeip.net (10.1.5.7) by falcon.midgard.homeip.net with ESMTP; 2 Apr 2010 13:14:30 +0200 Received: (qmail 1743 invoked by uid 1001); 2 Apr 2010 13:14:30 +0200 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:14:30 +0200 From: Erik Trulsson To: Jeremy Chadwick Message-ID: <20100402111430.GA1706@owl.midgard.homeip.net> References: <20100402021715.669838e0.stas@FreeBSD.org> <11597.1270200291@critter.freebsd.dk> <20100402101454.GA62089@icarus.home.lan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100402101454.GA62089@icarus.home.lan> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Originating-IP: 83.255.48.78 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1Nxepb-0006hp-4f. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1Nxepb-0006hp-4f 0c616524c41e57e0fb079737a7a701f6 Cc: Stanislav Sedov , Doug Barton , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, Randy Bush , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 11:14:41 -0000 On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 03:14:54AM -0700, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > > [1]: FreeBSD really needs to move away from the "base system" as a > concept, as I've ranted about in the past. Or if it cannot, the "base > system" needs to start using pkg_* (somehow) No, it does not need to do that. It might be a good idea (but I am far from convinced of it), but there most certainly is no *need* to move in that direction. -- Erik Trulsson ertr1013@student.uu.se From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 11:16:57 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45F5F1065677; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:16:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from reko.turja@liukuma.net) Received: from www.liukuma.net (www.liukuma.net [62.220.235.15]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E95B98FC29; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:16:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by www.liukuma.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4FC11CC60; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:01:48 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at liukuma.net Received: from www.liukuma.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (www.liukuma.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id TOrv0FCxeh39; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:01:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rivendell (a91-155-174-194.elisa-laajakaista.fi [91.155.174.194]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ignatz@www.liukuma.net) by www.liukuma.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 256391CC5D; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:01:44 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: From: "Reko Turja" To: References: <20100402021715.669838e0.stas@FreeBSD.org><11597.1270200291@critter.freebsd.dk><20100402101454.GA62089@icarus.home.lan> <20100402.122836.41723967.sthaug@nethelp.no> In-Reply-To: <20100402.122836.41723967.sthaug@nethelp.no> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:01:57 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-7"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, dougb@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 11:16:57 -0000 +AD4- Strongly disagree. +AD4- +AD4APg- Or if it cannot, the +ACI-base +AD4APg- system+ACI- needs to start using pkg+AF8AKg- (somehow) for use, = and src.conf +AD4APg- WITHOUT+AF8-xxx (where xxx +AD0- some software) removed. = Concept being: +ACI-I +AD4APg- don't need Kerberos+ADs- pkg+AF8-delete base-krb5. I also = don't need=20 +AD4APg- lib32+ADs- +AD4APg- pkg+AF8-delete base-lib32+ACI-. Beautiful concept, hard to = implement due=20 +AD4APg- to +AD4APg- libraries being yanked out from underneathe binaries that are=20 +AD4APg- linked to +AD4APg- them. But you get the idea. +AD4- +AD4- This +ACo-might+ACo- be workable. However, in general - a large = part of the +AD4- reason why I use FreeBSD is that the FreeBSD base system gives me +AD4- most of what I want, in +ACo-one+ACo- well defined chunk, = +ACo-without+ACo- having +AD4- to install a zillion extra packages, and without umpteen different +AD4- versions of config files and locations for the important=20 +AD4- information. me +-1 If I wanted to go Gnu/BSD (or Loonix) route, I'd already installed=20 either thank you. Funny though that BIND which is pretty=20 straightforward as configuration goes and as much essential system=20 component as Sendmail is getting the axe. I thought one of the main=20 philosophies in FreeBSD always was being a system in itself, rather=20 than kernel with some haphazardly thrown in components added. -Reko=20 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 11:45:48 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF94106564A; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:45:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dennylin93@hs.ntnu.edu.tw) Received: from mail.hs.ntnu.edu.tw (mail.hs.ntnu.edu.tw [140.131.149.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483628FC16; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:45:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail.hs.ntnu.edu.tw (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0BD964B7826; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:27:37 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:27:36 +0800 From: Denny Lin To: "Andrey V. Elsukov" Message-ID: <20100402112736.GB4611@mail.hs.ntnu.edu.tw> References: <4BB51B5B.1050606@FreeBSD.org> <20100401222404.77a14a02.stas@FreeBSD.org> <4BB58AA6.1040600@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4BB58AA6.1040600@yandex.ru> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: dougb@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 11:45:48 -0000 On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 10:11:50AM +0400, Andrey V. Elsukov wrote: > On 02.04.2010 9:24, Stanislav Sedov wrote: > >While it certainly might make sense to drop BIND out of the base, I'm not > >sure dropping bind tools as well from it is the best decision. How hard > >it will be to continue maintaining bind tools inside the base (so the > >critical ones like dig and nslookup still will be available), while moving > >the rest of it (the server itself and supporting tools) to the port? > > Hi, All. > > I'm agree with Stas. If it is not so hard to maintain "bind-tools" in the > base, > It is very useful to still having them in base system. +1 here. Dig and some of the other tools are extremely useful and important, so it would be nice if they were in the base system instead of a separate port. -- Denny Lin From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 13:02:32 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16461065672 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:02:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mad@madpilot.net) Received: from megatron.madpilot.net (megatron.madpilot.net [88.149.173.206]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE4C8FC0C for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:02:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from megatron.madpilot.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by megatron.madpilot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80A871524; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:46:41 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=madpilot.net; h= user-agent:in-reply-to:content-disposition:content-type :content-type:mime-version:references:message-id:subject:subject :from:from:date:date:received:received; s=mail; t=1270212394; x= 1272026794; bh=dX7cSJqfY7+OzHOJQOzznR5L2UkzMdbZWA7UpZYArGU=; b=S BywgMh8jE8vZ/9iopC41z9cdmovbmfGTKHLYyl4iNTqD5F/xTZMZNwagZeM9NhHu Fhw9sNjiIoCfs5JUNxMe3FjJfezMM06xJWNiug/6p8Lpruf1M+GDpHQuocZVTZ4J PLaoJW17b/Cwc7T0mge0PdbtvKbJNTQ0ciGN5l45AI= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at madpilot.net Received: from megatron.madpilot.net ([127.0.0.1]) by megatron.madpilot.net (megatron.madpilot.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id sU75wPeBSBud; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:46:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: by megatron.madpilot.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 35A52151C; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:46:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:46:34 +0200 From: Guido Falsi To: sthaug@nethelp.no Message-ID: <20100402124633.GC33426@megatron.madpilot.net> References: <20100402021715.669838e0.stas@FreeBSD.org> <11597.1270200291@critter.freebsd.dk> <20100402101454.GA62089@icarus.home.lan> <20100402.122836.41723967.sthaug@nethelp.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100402.122836.41723967.sthaug@nethelp.no> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 8.0-STABLE User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: randy@psg.com, dougb@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, stas@FreeBSD.org, phk@phk.freebsd.dk, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org, freebsd@jdc.parodius.com Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 13:02:33 -0000 On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 12:28:36PM +0200, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > > [1]: FreeBSD really needs to move away from the "base system" as a > > concept, as I've ranted about in the past. > > Strongly disagree. I'm with you! > > > Or if it cannot, the "base > > system" needs to start using pkg_* (somehow) for use, and src.conf > > WITHOUT_xxx (where xxx = some software) removed. Concept being: "I > > don't need Kerberos; pkg_delete base-krb5. I also don't need lib32; > > pkg_delete base-lib32". Beautiful concept, hard to implement due to > > libraries being yanked out from underneathe binaries that are linked to > > them. But you get the idea. > > This *might* be workable. However, in general - a large part of the > reason why I use FreeBSD is that the FreeBSD base system gives me > most of what I want, in *one* well defined chunk, *without* having > to install a zillion extra packages, and without umpteen different > versions of config files and locations for the important information. > Also, more than that, won't splitting the "base system" in many smaller pieces moving around by themselves make every single part of freeBSD a moving target? What I mean is that what may look like a way to simplify things could make matters worse with incompatibilities in between the base packages. having everythign in the base system guarantees much more control. I'm also thinking about the nightmares this kind of splitting could cause to release engineering. This is not pure speculation. Such problems do appear in many other known open source OSes with such a split base system. In fact, if I wanted such a thing I'd install that other open source OS. I did in fact, and observed many annoying things about not having a rich base system like ours(like wasting time figuring which packet contained commands I'm used to see in the base system on any unix. > So please don't destroy this. I hope not. Another good reason not to destroy this is again that there are already many alternative OSes doing it, and I think FreebSD has a strong point in being different, not a weak spot. -- Guido Falsi From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 14:54:32 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46CEB1065675 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:54:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D2F8FC0C for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:54:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.3/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o32EmFrn033165; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:48:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:48:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20100402.084823.152000421379278429.imp@bsdimp.com> To: uqs@spoerlein.net From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20100402091758.GP85798@acme.spoerlein.net> References: <20100401.132414.151475392393136085.imp@bsdimp.com> <20100402091758.GP85798@acme.spoerlein.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.3 on Emacs 22.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Removing support for NOFOO X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 14:54:32 -0000 In message: <20100402091758.GP85798@acme.spoerlein.net> Ulrich Sp=F6rlein writes: : On Thu, 01.04.2010 at 13:24:14 -0600, M. Warner Losh wrote: : > I'm planning on removing the support for the NOFOO variant of : > building. This has been obsolete since before the branch that crea= ted : > stable/5. As this file will be empty afterwards, I plan on removin= g : > it in a bit. : > = : > Comments? : = : Yes, several ports' Makefiles still use the old spelling of, eg. NOMA= N. : Not sure if that will break installation, and head is the right place= to : find out. : = : Perhaps an exp run can be scheduled, or is that too big a cannon? If the resources are available, I'll schedule a run. So that means it won't be for a few days yet, since the big port upgrade date is Sunday, I think. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 16:50:07 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852D11065692; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 16:50:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from oberman@es.net) Received: from mailgw.es.net (mail1.es.net [IPv6:2001:400:201:1::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25BB98FC0C; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 16:50:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ptavv.es.net (ptavv.es.net [IPv6:2001:400:910::29]) by mailgw.es.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o32Go28M009288 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:50:02 -0700 Received: from ptavv.es.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ptavv.es.net (Tachyon Server) with ESMTP id 71A8B1CC09; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:50:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Jeremy Chadwick In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Apr 2010 03:14:54 PDT." <20100402101454.GA62089@icarus.home.lan> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:50:02 -0700 From: "Kevin Oberman" Message-Id: <20100402165002.71A8B1CC09@ptavv.es.net> X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2010-04-02_11:2010-02-06, 2010-04-02, 2010-04-02 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1004020135 Cc: Stanislav Sedov , Doug Barton , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, Randy Bush , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:50:08 -0000 > Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 03:14:54 -0700 > From: Jeremy Chadwick > Sender: owner-freebsd-stable@freebsd.org > > On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 09:24:51AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > In message <20100402021715.669838e0.stas@FreeBSD.org>, Stanislav Sedov writes: > > >On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:55:07 +0000 > > >"Poul-Henning Kamp" mentioned: > > > > >Sorry, I think I was not clear enough. > > > > Sorry for misunderstanding. > > > > Yes, the case can certainly be made that DNS query tool belongs in the > > base system. > > I disagree (so what else is new?) It should be kept out of the base > system. KISS: > > Doug pulling BIND out of the base system / going ports-only = excellent. > > Doug making a separate port for BIND-esque DNS query/maintenance tools = > excellent. > > Both of the above can be made into packages. Vendors who use FreeBSD > can incorporate said package(s) into their build infrastructure. Folks > who do not have Internet connections (yet for some reason want said DNS > tools) can install the package(s) from CD/DVD/USB. > > I want the bikeshed to be black. :-) I have very mixed feelings on this. I agree with arguments I have seen on both sides. I like being able to install FreeBSD and have a well integrated system with all of the basic tools installed for basic use. Things play together well. I don't use many of the base system tools. I use cups, postfix, customized ssh, and the ports version of BIND. I don't build the stuff I don't need (src.conf) and I don't mind them being there. On the other hand, for complex, heavy duty ports, keeping up to date with externally maintains tools (contrib) is a pain and the base system can get stuck with rather out of date tools as a result. (Remember perl?) Unless there is very strong support for a contributed tools, it's hopeless and, if the tool is evolving rapidly, as BIND is with DNSSEC, it's still hopeless. I have seen suggestions that some tools be kept in the base system. nslookup (an evil tool that I think should be put out of its misery) and dig (a good tool that not enough people understand how to use) have been explicitly mentioned. The problem is that dig needs to be in reasonable feature sync with the resolver or it can have problems. Finally, what about a stub resolver? This really MUST be in the base system and, it should understand DNSSEC soon, which just complicates things. I prefer my bikeshed in green. Black is too goth and too hot for my tastes. -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) E-mail: oberman@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 17:22:14 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9581D1065672; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 17:22:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from reko.turja@liukuma.net) Received: from www.liukuma.net (www.liukuma.net [62.220.235.15]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476108FC17; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 17:22:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by www.liukuma.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4256F1CC60; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 20:22:06 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at liukuma.net Received: from www.liukuma.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (www.liukuma.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id yZsC45uKhR7e; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 20:22:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rivendell (a91-155-174-194.elisa-laajakaista.fi [91.155.174.194]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ignatz@www.liukuma.net) by www.liukuma.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 86B101CC5D; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 20:22:04 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <77FCD9C7615944DBBD3369EC4E5A5C94@rivendell> From: "Reko Turja" To: "freebsd-current+AEA-FreeBSD.ORG" References: <20100402165002.71A8B1CC09@ptavv.es.net> In-Reply-To: <20100402165002.71A8B1CC09@ptavv.es.net> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 20:22:19 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-7"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:22:14 -0000 Based on the inspection of the source tree, I want my bikeshed mauve.=20 I've not been had by AFD jokes in a while but Doug pulled this one=20 off... -Reko=20 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 18:10:23 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6391065674; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:10:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bc979@lafn.org) Received: from zoom.lafn.org (zoom.lafn.ORG [206.117.18.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63B1A8FC12; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:10:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (pool-71-109-144-133.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.109.144.133]) (authenticated bits=0) by zoom.lafn.org (8.14.3/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o32HdrCG096893 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:39:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bc979@lafn.org) References: <4BB51B5B.1050606@FreeBSD.org> <20100401222404.77a14a02.stas@FreeBSD.org> <4BB58AA6.1040600@yandex.ru> <20100402112736.GB4611@mail.hs.ntnu.edu.tw> In-Reply-To: <20100402112736.GB4611@mail.hs.ntnu.edu.tw> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <6E191581-F8EB-4B85-9F1D-8D2FE6DAAF10@lafn.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Doug Hardie Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:39:53 -0700 To: FreeBSD Current , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at zoom.lafn.org X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 18:10:23 -0000 On 2 April 2010, at 04:27, Denny Lin wrote: > On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 10:11:50AM +0400, Andrey V. Elsukov wrote: >> On 02.04.2010 9:24, Stanislav Sedov wrote: >>> While it certainly might make sense to drop BIND out of the base, = I'm not >>> sure dropping bind tools as well from it is the best decision. How = hard >>> it will be to continue maintaining bind tools inside the base (so = the >>> critical ones like dig and nslookup still will be available), while = moving >>> the rest of it (the server itself and supporting tools) to the port? >>=20 >> Hi, All. >>=20 >> I'm agree with Stas. If it is not so hard to maintain "bind-tools" in = the=20 >> base, >> It is very useful to still having them in base system. >=20 > +1 here. Dig and some of the other tools are extremely useful and > important, so it would be nice if they were in the base system instead > of a separate port. The reason dig and nslookup are used is because you have a problem with = the internet connection. Thats a bit late to say "you need to install = the DNS tools". If you could, you wouldn't need them. Not everyone = will create a ports CD. =20= From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 18:29:32 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 385D1106564A; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:29:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.netplex.net (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1D68FC0A; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:29:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sea.ntplx.net (sea.ntplx.net [204.213.176.11]) by mail.netplex.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id o32ITQQg013377; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:29:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.netplex.net) X-Greylist: Message whitelisted by DRAC access database, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.10]); Fri, 02 Apr 2010 14:29:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:29:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen X-X-Sender: eischen@sea.ntplx.net To: Kevin Oberman In-Reply-To: <20100402165002.71A8B1CC09@ptavv.es.net> Message-ID: References: <20100402165002.71A8B1CC09@ptavv.es.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Randy Bush , Doug Barton , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Stanislav Sedov , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Jeremy Chadwick Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Daniel Eischen List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 18:29:32 -0000 On Fri, 2 Apr 2010, Kevin Oberman wrote: >> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 03:14:54 -0700 >> From: Jeremy Chadwick >> Sender: owner-freebsd-stable@freebsd.org >> >> I disagree (so what else is new?) It should be kept out of the base >> system. KISS: >> >> Doug pulling BIND out of the base system / going ports-only = excellent. >> >> Doug making a separate port for BIND-esque DNS query/maintenance tools = >> excellent. >> >> Both of the above can be made into packages. Vendors who use FreeBSD >> can incorporate said package(s) into their build infrastructure. Folks >> who do not have Internet connections (yet for some reason want said DNS >> tools) can install the package(s) from CD/DVD/USB. >> >> I want the bikeshed to be black. :-) > > I have very mixed feelings on this. I agree with arguments I have seen > on both sides. I like being able to install FreeBSD and have a well > integrated system with all of the basic tools installed for basic > use. Things play together well. > > I don't use many of the base system tools. I use cups, postfix, > customized ssh, and the ports version of BIND. I don't build the stuff I > don't need (src.conf) and I don't mind them being there. > > On the other hand, for complex, heavy duty ports, keeping up to date > with externally maintains tools (contrib) is a pain and the base system > can get stuck with rather out of date tools as a result. (Remember > perl?) Unless there is very strong support for a contributed tools, it's > hopeless and, if the tool is evolving rapidly, as BIND is with DNSSEC, > it's still hopeless. I really dread having to update my ports. I hate all the bloated dependencies that a lot of ports have. It's sometimes a hit or miss situtation; you never know whether your ports are going to build (update) fully or not. And it takes forever. Our ports team does a fantastic job, so no diss intended. But I am concerned about moving BIND into ports, even if there is a tools-only port. With BIND in base, I don't have to worry about updating or when to update - someone else decides when to update/patch the base BIND and I am happy with that. All I have to do is buildworld, which I do much more often than update ports. If there is already a WITHOUT_BIND knob, then I really don't see what advantage there is in moving BIND out of base. Anyone that wants to use a different resolver can already do that, with the only limitation that they have to buildworld to remove the base bind. -- DE From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 18:35:21 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7271065672 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:35:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from spork@bway.net) Received: from xena.bway.net (xena.bway.net [216.220.96.26]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 880108FC16 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:35:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 28759 invoked by uid 0); 2 Apr 2010 18:08:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.82.15.178?) (spork@166.198.238.83) by smtp.bway.net with (AES128-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 2 Apr 2010 18:08:38 -0000 References: <20100402165002.71A8B1CC09@ptavv.es.net> <77FCD9C7615944DBBD3369EC4E5A5C94@rivendell> Message-Id: <2972DD89-7D7D-4869-9280-305BACBFEC5A@bway.net> From: Charles Sprickman To: Reko Turja In-Reply-To: <77FCD9C7615944DBBD3369EC4E5A5C94@rivendell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:08:27 -0400 Cc: "freebsd-current+AEA-FreeBSD.ORG" , "freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org" , "freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org" Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 18:35:21 -0000 Can we do sendmail next April 1? Sent from a device with a tiny keyboard On Apr 2, 2010, at 1:22 PM, "Reko Turja" wrote: > Based on the inspection of the source tree, I want my bikeshed > mauve. I've not been had by AFD jokes in a while but Doug pulled > this one off... > > -Reko > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org > " From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 19:07:55 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E16D106564A for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:07:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx21.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06E708FC0A for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:07:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 29978 invoked by uid 399); 2 Apr 2010 19:07:54 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.0.145?) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 2 Apr 2010 19:07:54 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4BB64088.8030003@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 12:07:52 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100317 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org References: <11351.1270198507@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 19:07:55 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: RIPEMD160 So first of all, yes Virginia, this was an April Fool's Day joke. To both those for whom this post created a false sense of despair, and (perhaps more importantly) to those for whom it created a false sense of joy, my apologies. :) And for the record, everything from here on is "just the facts." I have always said that I will remove BIND from the base when there is clear community consensus to do so, and I stand by that. However the discussion always seems to go along the lines that this thread did. A vocal group who say, "YES!" and then a lot of people who want the resolution tools (dig, host, nslookup) to stay, and the other end of the bell-shaped curve with those who like having the whole thing in the base. Toss in a few choruses of "The whole base should be more modular," (a viewpoint with which I have a great deal of sympathy btw) and the soup is pretty well complete. In regard to the tools issue, the problem is that you need a pretty good majority of the code in order to build them. They require the libraries to be built, and once you've done that, you might as well do the rest. :) Total size of code in: contrib/bind9: 14.0M contrib/bind9/lib: 7.6M contrib/bind9/bin: 2.5M contrib/bind9/bin/dig: 0.4M The last is the directory that has the code for all 3 resolution tools, FYI. Therefore I think that the status quo of having it all in there, and knobs to turn off the bits you don't want is a good one since it seems to please the majority of our users. I will continue to maintain the bind-tools port though, that's something that's been requested often, and I think it's a good thing to have for those who want a different DNS solution but still want access to those tools in a fairly painless manner. And of course the ability to easily change/upgrade/manage what version of BIND you use via the ports will continue to be a key component of how we deal with this going forward. Of course, the release synchronization problems I described in both the original post and the AFD post are real, so stay tuned. :) Answers to DNSSEC concerns below. On 4/2/2010 3:52 AM, Robert Watson wrote: > With an eye on the date of Doug's suggestive e-mail, I actually am concerned > that we maintain support for DNSSEC validation in the base system. If this > can be accomplished by keeping DNS debugging tools and the lightweight > resolver in the base, then I'm fine with that world view. However, if we > can't do DNSSEC record validation without installing the BIND package, then > that worries me. Unfortunately this answer is more complicated than I'd like it to be. In general, DNS resolution requires 4 components (and yes, this is pretty well simplified, but I think the illustration serves to clarify my point): 1. An end-user application that makes a request 2. A stub resolver located on the local system 3. A resolving name server 4. An authoritative name server At this time the DNSSEC protocol only clearly addresses the behavior of 4, and partially addresses the behavior of 3. There is no protocol specification for 1 or 2. So in general if you want to be able to validate DNSSEC signatures on the local system the only option available to you is to run a local validating resolver. It doesn't have to be BIND, unbound is also a good candidate, but you have to run something locally to be sure that the response(s) you've received are valid. Now that said, if you have a special purpose in mind to validate records in a specific domain (or specific few domains) for which you are prepared to individually manage trust anchors (the generic term of art for DNSSEC keys) then you could do that using dig alone. However that solution would not scale well, and I wouldn't recommend it for a critical piece of the base or ports. > As we go forward, DNSSEC is going to become increasingly important, and being > unable to bootstrap a system will be a problem, and it will become an > increasingly critical part of the security bootstrap process for networked > systems. Since your description above is generic, I will generically agree with you. :) I think as time goes on and more intelligence about DNSSEC is pushed to the edges I think it will be possible to have a validating stub resolver, and on a trusted network reasonable to rely on an external validating resolving name server. However there's an awful lot of supposition there, and as I said above, the spec doesn't even exist yet, never mind the code. > While some DNSSEC folk consider it anathema ("DNS is not a directory > service!"), the ability to securely distribute keying material via an existing > network service has enourmous value: for example, early DNSSEC prototypes in > the late 1990's/early 2000's included SSH key distribution via cert records in > DNSSEC. The CERT record still exists, although not for ssh. See http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4398. For ssh fingerprints there is the SSHFP record, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4255. And there are always TXT records. :) Now all THAT said, there is an element of DNSSEC that I am rather strongly leaning toward putting in the ports, trust anchor configuration. Currently you have essentially 2 choices for DNSSEC validation, manually configure trust anchors, or use a DNS Lookaside Validation (DLV) service, of which the most popular is ISC's. Both options have their benefits and their drawbacks, which are outside the scope of this post. OTOH, if things continue going according to plan the root zone will be signed with real DNSSEC keys in July. That will make it possible to do "regular" DNSSEC validation for those zones that are signed from the root down by only configuring one trust anchor, the root zone key. (If you need to validate something on a "secure island," i.e., one or more parent zones is not signed, you are back to the first 2 choices, but once again, out of scope.) In the ideal world the root zone trust anchor would function like the root.hints file does now. It is stable (not updated often) and failure to update it in a timely manner would not be catastrophic. Unfortunately, the first is not guaranteed, and the latter is the opposite of the truth. There has already been on incident where an OS distribution had shipped with trust anchors manually configured and when they became outdated hilarity ensued. I would like to avoid that for our users. At this time my plan is to add hooks for "easy" incorporation of DNSSEC validation into the base named.conf, with instructions for how to install the port/package, the importance of keeping it up to date, etc. Before I make any changes I'll be seeking input from experts in the DNSSEC community and posting something a little more focused on -arch at least. If the release engineer or security officer teams have "something" in mind for FreeBSD that will require DNSSEC, we'll have to coordinate efforts on this, but I don't imagine it will be too difficult even with a bind-dnssec-config port. hth, Doug - -- ... and that's just a little bit of history repeating. -- Propellerheads Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32) iEYEAREDAAYFAku2QIgACgkQyIakK9Wy8PvMtQCeIu/32RGMIC/798V15aO/sjP3 788AoPf53oxsgutXPriuLOszcp2DBKc1 =hUnq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 21:31:30 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E692106566C for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 21:31:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fjwcash@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yx0-f186.google.com (mail-yx0-f186.google.com [209.85.210.186]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1AE58FC18 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 21:31:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: by yxe16 with SMTP id 16so1352239yxe.9 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 14:31:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=NQEnIzp56YO99tH7XEY7pwcAu4XgAWsVZnfYCnnkDiY=; b=JX+TuD9wADavAaF+G+2By5Z2jFC/HTEWJC3jiW94wCz4EjMtpL2Kelo4kScETyXZNN aMVnubIKDGtmpaqDnBujfiwXMVFUbSrA/mDvSn4B1G7AzrtfQXpJ5dLMeH22sNHQczCy gUh/ghmwoKCRi9kyMIOQfuoAL4xeQXIfpCWTE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Mhhbz6Mq9Hz7eIpHBjSFi5BOi0FGt8l+jKFvv9Nay7ZXV8zCM6WtkNiDu1j7KCYEmW aQzVllVP7HNtqAXgxX8Ic/XPXyRMoxS30tf4MQgnr4bYPUPtCepCbcAYQcf7X7fJDyI0 ToShjH1qecj+yKNc9AGlj298nldsbjVofdsuQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.35.203 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:08:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100402101454.GA62089@icarus.home.lan> References: <20100402021715.669838e0.stas@FreeBSD.org> <11597.1270200291@critter.freebsd.dk> <20100402101454.GA62089@icarus.home.lan> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:08:24 -0700 Received: by 10.100.26.37 with SMTP id 37mr4633359anz.72.1270242504924; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 14:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Freddie Cash To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 21:31:30 -0000 On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 3:14 AM, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > [1]: FreeBSD really needs to move away from the "base system" as a > concept, as I've ranted about in the past. Or if it cannot, the "base > system" needs to start using pkg_* (somehow) for use, and src.conf > WITHOUT_xxx (where xxx = some software) removed. Concept being: "I > don't need Kerberos; pkg_delete base-krb5. I also don't need lib32; > pkg_delete base-lib32". Beautiful concept, hard to implement due to > libraries being yanked out from underneathe binaries that are linked to > them. But you get the idea. > Maybe I'm just a lowly sysadmin and ex-port maintainer, but ... No, no, no, definitely no, no, and no!! The greatest thing about FreeBSD is that there is a clear separation between the "base OS" and everything else (ports, local installs, etc). You get a nice, clearly defined, base to build on. You get a stable base that changes infrequently, that you can add software to on whatever schedule you want. The worst thing about Linux distros is the lack of this clear separation between the base and third-party apps. If you want to install an updated version of Apache, you either have to update the whole damned distro, go searching for some unsupported backports repos, or compile everything by hand defeating the whole point of binary packages. Making the tools do deal with the base could be interesting, but please, please, please don't shove everything into the pkg_tools and turning FreeBSD into "just a random collection of packages that kind of work together". IOW, don't go down the distro path. Keep the base OS separate from third-party apps. Keep the tools to deal with them separate. -- Freddie Cash fjwcash@gmail.com From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 22:15:51 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01DAA106566B for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 22:15:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from amvandemore@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA7758FC13 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 22:15:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so826751qwe.7 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:15:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Lt5IxyS8Yi6cSAa0aNmVyRM1OdzSbhUc8ODjPKd0mjE=; b=TrYOSVjZIP3ob36/D8VRfRdrlWix16YNCgIceSN5RXZIXJW7n90SDsHtkFvuPJdMVA 3DReMmaZSSIW39OX6u807QzX53BpNQnpqdAFg2OJ9Ps9oSb0454SH5OtO7oRMsZnGSKW XxcSrQ7G4/ZIkAzw7g/YEusxUiO+NompZBqQ0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=W4oa7QWQGUgyemE+Kj1EAvmFLrQN2fV/zLWt1uZuNSjmLLk95xuRaULjgUyEwyqLEz dVIelCLrQTBcSC6QL7rjElA2wZhlTst46ER4AA8wDDbshfbJ+D7SJwvtsJ5J7smpt4dm aYrYSPsbQfNGf3QX9H7EgMMb7lSquUKsEfuIE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.82.14 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:49:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100402021715.669838e0.stas@FreeBSD.org> <11597.1270200291@critter.freebsd.dk> <20100402101454.GA62089@icarus.home.lan> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 15:49:54 -0600 Received: by 10.229.215.11 with SMTP id hc11mr4410504qcb.45.1270244994361; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 14:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Adam Vande More To: Freddie Cash Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 22:15:51 -0000 On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Freddie Cash wrote: > Maybe I'm just a lowly sysadmin and ex-port maintainer, but ... > > No, no, no, definitely no, no, and no!! > > The greatest thing about FreeBSD is that there is a clear separation > between > the "base OS" and everything else (ports, local installs, etc). You get a > nice, clearly defined, base to build on. You get a stable base that > changes > infrequently, that you can add software to on whatever schedule you want. > > The worst thing about Linux distros is the lack of this clear separation > between the base and third-party apps. If you want to install an updated > version of Apache, you either have to update the whole damned distro, go > searching for some unsupported backports repos, or compile everything by > hand defeating the whole point of binary packages. > > Making the tools do deal with the base could be interesting, but please, > please, please don't shove everything into the pkg_tools and turning > FreeBSD > into "just a random collection of packages that kind of work together". > IOW, don't go down the distro path. > > Keep the base OS separate from third-party apps. Keep the tools to deal > with them separate. > True word, brother! If we wanted to run linux there are options for it. debs suck, rpms really suck. Those types of systems are sometimes faster to get up and rolling as long as you want vanilla apps, but they are a major PITA for many types of customizations which are a breeze with the ports tree. You'd be killing of one of the more elegant approaches in FreeBSD. Sure there are problem with it, but IMO adopting more severe problems isn't a good answer. Maybe that was a 4/1 too though. If so, good work. -- Adam Vande More From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 2 22:32:12 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E3AD106564A; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 22:32:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@acm.org) Received: from mail10.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail10.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.191]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD4358FC08; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 22:32:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c122-106-253-149.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au [122.106.253.149]) by mail10.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o32MW8oc000508 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 3 Apr 2010 09:32:09 +1100 X-Bogosity: Ham, spamicity=0.000000 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o32MW27M039461; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 09:32:02 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id o32MW2fw039460; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 09:32:02 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 09:32:02 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Jeremy Chadwick Message-ID: <20100402223202.GD86236@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <20100402021715.669838e0.stas@FreeBSD.org> <11597.1270200291@critter.freebsd.dk> <20100402101454.GA62089@icarus.home.lan> <20100402.122836.41723967.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4BB5CAA7.5030108@stillbilde.net> <20100402121526.GA64746@icarus.home.lan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pZs/OQEoSSbxGlYw" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100402121526.GA64746@icarus.home.lan> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-CMAE-Score: 0 Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 22:32:12 -0000 --pZs/OQEoSSbxGlYw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Firstly, congratualtions to doubg@. On 2010-Apr-02 05:15:26 -0700, Jeremy Chadwick w= rote: >1) In most scenarios (historically speaking), what gets updated quicker: >base or ports? Answer: ports. In some ways this is a problem. On the downside, it means that a -RELEASE will never have bleeding edge features. On the upside, it means that a -RELEASE will never have bleeding edge bugs. >2) What has proper infrastructure for dependencies and tracking of >installed files as part of a software package? Answer: ports. I agree that this is a deficiency in the base system. I have often wished that there was some way of tracking exactly what part of installworld had installed what file - but I accept that this is a "difficult" problem. It might be useful if there was a target as part of install{world,kernel} that built a mtree database of what was installed. >3) How often do you see people posting problems with key pieces of >FreeBSD infrastructure (device support/reliability or storage-related >subsystems), followed by a response from a developer stating "this has >been fixed in -STABLE" or "can you try the code from HEAD?" Answer: >often. That's true of any non-trivial piece of software that has distinct "developer" and "end-user" branches. Moving to ports won't really resolve the problem - the answer will still be "you need to update to a newer version of that code". Whilst I'd occasionally like to see less "bloat" (ie anything that I don't use) in base, there is one significant benefit that I don't recall seeing discussed in this thread - integration testing. The base system it built and tested as a whole. This isn't practical for the ports system. Without the integration testing, you wind up in the situation where port A and port B work in isolation but don't work together - the port A maintainer says that the problem is port B and the port B maintainer says that port A is relying on an optional part of port B that they don't have the time/interest/expertise to maintain. --=20 Peter Jeremy --pZs/OQEoSSbxGlYw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAku2cGIACgkQ/opHv/APuIeMgQCggvdT7V76Zm2JuS/1z31DB6HK WG0An35J/TIm1aiTSJCzOx3GpPC6yhxM =gusw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pZs/OQEoSSbxGlYw-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 3 04:10:41 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2563F106566B; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 04:10:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from smithi@nimnet.asn.au) Received: from sola.nimnet.asn.au (paqi.nimnet.asn.au [115.70.110.159]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F808FC17; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 04:10:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sola.nimnet.asn.au (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o333vIQW064868; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 14:57:18 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from smithi@nimnet.asn.au) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 14:57:18 +1100 (EST) From: Ian Smith To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <4BB64088.8030003@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: <20100403143804.M35463@sola.nimnet.asn.au> References: <11351.1270198507@critter.freebsd.dk> <4BB64088.8030003@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 04:10:41 -0000 On Fri, 2 Apr 2010, Doug Barton wrote: > So first of all, yes Virginia, this was an April Fool's Day joke. To > both those for whom this post created a false sense of despair, and > (perhaps more importantly) to those for whom it created a false sense of > joy, my apologies. :) And for the record, everything from here on is > "just the facts." You're a proper bastard, Doug - in the strictly affectionate Aussie sense of the term. Talk about stirring the possum! Had me fired up to figure out how to add a choice menu to sysinstall .. Good to hear the DNSSEC stuff is coming along, however ponderously. KUTGW, Ian From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 3 06:54:49 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F88F106564A; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 06:54:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eirnym@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f181.google.com (mail-qy0-f181.google.com [209.85.221.181]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7A1D8FC08; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 06:54:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qyk11 with SMTP id 11so2676644qyk.13 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 23:54:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:in-reply-to:x-mailer :subject:references:message-id:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:date:cc; bh=ulJG/R22WjaY0f5rjSU15JsA2bUEeuaKjpX99z4/ZAg=; b=Pta3Dklre2x8oFIWDzEEhYR3+ZxZ+ZKUW+G0gi1C3C7oxnZRypElO/6mUXObQ0N8q9 SFpdZV/NqAxIulNFmgj2OQqwwHrBQf55T0q17+dHIxb7Fv+pZHnZo36K/yVjbTSm5QRT jLgPu760rZe78kZe+nKaoLAysIpIEg2Lp35tw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:in-reply-to:x-mailer:subject:references:message-id :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:date:cc; b=azEpEqvkmnJcy9PODwjpqCE8fLA6TdTW5bNBQ4uzQaQrT8h6ZIfFdaPuSqD7iZQAdi ThTeIfBPPtB6vUf/dXor74V0nuXPPf3A6+ANKEAMV03ZimuagUzY+3zXlxAU74yLVkpo rbWTUUZeiFvT2/Xokfjamhmbhq+/6qOdTXUVM= Received: by 10.224.55.65 with SMTP id t1mr1029004qag.313.1270277687954; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 23:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.7] ([72.14.241.33]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 6sm10714940qwd.27.2010.04.02.23.54.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 02 Apr 2010 23:54:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Arseny Nasokin To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <4BB64088.8030003@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) References: <11351.1270198507@critter.freebsd.dk> <4BB64088.8030003@FreeBSD.org> Message-Id: <741A5195-385B-42A1-90FE-3B6EBC6956A3@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 10:54:44 +0400 Cc: "freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org" , "freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org" , "freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org" Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 06:54:49 -0000 On 2 Apr 2010, at 23:07, Doug Barton wrote: > > Therefore I think that the status quo of having it all in there, and > knobs to turn off the bits you don't want is a good one since it seems > to please the majority of our users. I will continue to maintain the > bind-tools port though, that's something that's been requested often, > and I think it's a good thing to have for those who want a different > DNS > solution but still want access to those tools in a fairly painless > manner. And of course the ability to easily change/upgrade/manage what > version of BIND you use via the ports will continue to be a key > component of how we deal with this going forward. > > Of course, the release synchronization problems I described in both > the > original post and the AFD post are real, so stay tuned. :) > Some about BIND and XML support via port. As I know, world is enough to build everything in it, but support build something in world, which depends on some port is not good idea. Yes, it useful option, but I think it should be in port(which has much more flexibility), not in world. > > hth, > > Doug > > - -- > > ... and that's just a little bit of history repeating. > -- Propellerheads > > Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with > a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32) > > iEYEAREDAAYFAku2QIgACgkQyIakK9Wy8PvMtQCeIu/32RGMIC/798V15aO/sjP3 > 788AoPf53oxsgutXPriuLOszcp2DBKc1 > =hUnq > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org > " From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 3 07:08:43 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82EEF106566B; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 07:08:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eirnym@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.24]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FDDF8FC37; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 07:08:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so914054qwe.7 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 00:08:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:in-reply-to:x-mailer :subject:references:message-id:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:date:cc; bh=0/zXFXIwFGd/89S946cC8du1WDsVaxpLCMP44n3djfg=; b=FM3lONotc0ScvWRqCYXr4EyoS1H0pPQAPROzqTETEEjG6EwiLsnNH5ofuxVO3kp7KK upbCO9nclJbFuJnMwO5zZ/WIGU3/lDyKYfUMBxX0ZG5vukRQBFk2rj6dTCKyc1eD5qbg tryHC0IKk1x9CVyAry8DKi6JFem609M2Yk58o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:in-reply-to:x-mailer:subject:references:message-id :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:date:cc; b=dtmRjvNZGfDJaZzX5Q6HzYT0Gi/ksOGch/eDTtkIAqBh4kVM7pAmfIkGvTYF6R0z3Y wK+aNqACMK5/LYh1tdN8TQYs3IroRIGnE/dKEuf0xlp8J/+RgG6Cdr9qFaJU/QLAHjTV 3hm5igiuXI+tSF1e75D8TjKJWk13mtS9qYaiI= Received: by 10.224.71.130 with SMTP id h2mr1025528qaj.246.1270276966765; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 23:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.7] ([72.14.241.40]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 7sm901679qwf.44.2010.04.02.23.42.43 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 02 Apr 2010 23:42:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Arseny Nasokin To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <4BB64088.8030003@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) References: <11351.1270198507@critter.freebsd.dk> <4BB64088.8030003@FreeBSD.org> Message-Id: <22D22D6D-8976-4EBD-9351-965A33544013@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 10:42:40 +0400 Cc: "freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org" , "freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org" , "freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org" Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 07:08:43 -0000 On 2 Apr 2010, at 23:07, Doug Barton wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: RIPEMD160 > > So first of all, yes Virginia, this was an April Fool's Day joke. To > both those for whom this post created a false sense of despair, and > (perhaps more importantly) to those for whom it created a false > sense of > joy, my apologies. :) And for the record, everything from here on is > "just the facts." > > I have always said that I will remove BIND from the base when there is > clear community consensus to do so, and I stand by that. However the > discussion always seems to go along the lines that this thread did. A > vocal group who say, "YES!" and then a lot of people who want the > resolution tools (dig, host, nslookup) to stay, and the other end of > the > bell-shaped curve with those who like having the whole thing in the > base. Toss in a few choruses of "The whole base should be more > modular," > (a viewpoint with which I have a great deal of sympathy btw) and the > soup is pretty well complete. > > In regard to the tools issue, the problem is that you need a pretty > good > majority of the code in order to build them. They require the > libraries > to be built, and once you've done that, you might as well do the > rest. :) > > Total size of code in: > contrib/bind9: 14.0M > contrib/bind9/lib: 7.6M > contrib/bind9/bin: 2.5M > contrib/bind9/bin/dig: 0.4M > > The last is the directory that has the code for all 3 resolution > tools, > FYI. > > Therefore I think that the status quo of having it all in there, and > knobs to turn off the bits you don't want is a good one since it seems > to please the majority of our users. I will continue to maintain the > bind-tools port though, that's something that's been requested often, > and I think it's a good thing to have for those who want a different > DNS > solution but still want access to those tools in a fairly painless > manner. And of course the ability to easily change/upgrade/manage what > version of BIND you use via the ports will continue to be a key > component of how we deal with this going forward. > > Of course, the release synchronization problems I described in both > the > original post and the AFD post are real, so stay tuned. :) > > Answers to DNSSEC concerns below. > > On 4/2/2010 3:52 AM, Robert Watson wrote: >> With an eye on the date of Doug's suggestive e-mail, I actually am >> concerned >> that we maintain support for DNSSEC validation in the base system. >> If this >> can be accomplished by keeping DNS debugging tools and the >> lightweight >> resolver in the base, then I'm fine with that world view. However, >> if we >> can't do DNSSEC record validation without installing the BIND >> package, then >> that worries me. > > Unfortunately this answer is more complicated than I'd like it to > be. In > general, DNS resolution requires 4 components (and yes, this is pretty > well simplified, but I think the illustration serves to clarify my > point): > 1. An end-user application that makes a request > 2. A stub resolver located on the local system > 3. A resolving name server > 4. An authoritative name server > > At this time the DNSSEC protocol only clearly addresses the behavior > of > 4, and partially addresses the behavior of 3. There is no protocol > specification for 1 or 2. So in general if you want to be able to > validate DNSSEC signatures on the local system the only option > available > to you is to run a local validating resolver. It doesn't have to be > BIND, unbound is also a good candidate, but you have to run something > locally to be sure that the response(s) you've received are valid. > > Now that said, if you have a special purpose in mind to validate > records > in a specific domain (or specific few domains) for which you are > prepared to individually manage trust anchors (the generic term of art > for DNSSEC keys) then you could do that using dig alone. However that > solution would not scale well, and I wouldn't recommend it for a > critical piece of the base or ports. > >> As we go forward, DNSSEC is going to become increasingly important, >> and being >> unable to bootstrap a system will be a problem, and it will become an >> increasingly critical part of the security bootstrap process for >> networked >> systems. > > Since your description above is generic, I will generically agree with > you. :) I think as time goes on and more intelligence about DNSSEC is > pushed to the edges I think it will be possible to have a validating > stub resolver, and on a trusted network reasonable to rely on an > external validating resolving name server. However there's an awful > lot > of supposition there, and as I said above, the spec doesn't even exist > yet, never mind the code. > >> While some DNSSEC folk consider it anathema ("DNS is not a directory >> service!"), the ability to securely distribute keying material via >> an existing >> network service has enourmous value: for example, early DNSSEC >> prototypes in >> the late 1990's/early 2000's included SSH key distribution via cert >> records in >> DNSSEC. > > The CERT record still exists, although not for ssh. See > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4398. For ssh fingerprints there is the > SSHFP record, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4255. And there are always > TXT records. :) > > Now all THAT said, there is an element of DNSSEC that I am rather > strongly leaning toward putting in the ports, trust anchor > configuration. Currently you have essentially 2 choices for DNSSEC > validation, manually configure trust anchors, or use a DNS Lookaside > Validation (DLV) service, of which the most popular is ISC's. Both > options have their benefits and their drawbacks, which are outside the > scope of this post. OTOH, if things continue going according to plan > the > root zone will be signed with real DNSSEC keys in July. That will make > it possible to do "regular" DNSSEC validation for those zones that are > signed from the root down by only configuring one trust anchor, the > root > zone key. (If you need to validate something on a "secure island," > i.e., > one or more parent zones is not signed, you are back to the first 2 > choices, but once again, out of scope.) > > In the ideal world the root zone trust anchor would function like the > root.hints file does now. It is stable (not updated often) and failure > to update it in a timely manner would not be catastrophic. > Unfortunately, the first is not guaranteed, and the latter is the > opposite of the truth. There has already been on incident where an OS > distribution had shipped with trust anchors manually configured and > when > they became outdated hilarity ensued. I would like to avoid that for > our > users. > > At this time my plan is to add hooks for "easy" incorporation of > DNSSEC > validation into the base named.conf, with instructions for how to > install the port/package, the importance of keeping it up to date, > etc. > Before I make any changes I'll be seeking input from experts in the > DNSSEC community and posting something a little more focused on - > arch at > least. If the release engineer or security officer teams have > "something" in mind for FreeBSD that will require DNSSEC, we'll have > to > coordinate efforts on this, but I don't imagine it will be too > difficult > even with a bind-dnssec-config port. > > > hth, > > Doug > > - -- > > ... and that's just a little bit of history repeating. > -- Propellerheads > > Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with > a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32) > > iEYEAREDAAYFAku2QIgACgkQyIakK9Wy8PvMtQCeIu/32RGMIC/798V15aO/sjP3 > 788AoPf53oxsgutXPriuLOszcp2DBKc1 > =hUnq > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org > " From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 3 13:57:12 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483451065674; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 13:57:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail25@bzerk.org) Received: from ei.bzerk.org (tunnel490.ipv6.xs4all.nl [IPv6:2001:888:10:1ea::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66B38FC1C; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 13:57:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ei.bzerk.org (BOFH@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ei.bzerk.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o33Dv3kY063317; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:57:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mail25@bzerk.org) Received: (from bulk@localhost) by ei.bzerk.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id o33Dv3OW063316; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:57:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mail25@bzerk.org) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:57:03 +0200 From: Ruben de Groot To: Charles Sprickman Message-ID: <20100403135703.GA63262@ei.bzerk.org> Mail-Followup-To: Ruben de Groot , Charles Sprickman , Reko Turja , "freebsd-current+AEA-FreeBSD.ORG" , "freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org" , "freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org" References: <20100402165002.71A8B1CC09@ptavv.es.net> <77FCD9C7615944DBBD3369EC4E5A5C94@rivendell> <2972DD89-7D7D-4869-9280-305BACBFEC5A@bway.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2972DD89-7D7D-4869-9280-305BACBFEC5A@bway.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on ei.bzerk.org X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0.1 (ei.bzerk.org [127.0.0.1]); Sat, 03 Apr 2010 15:57:08 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Reko Turja , "freebsd-current+AEA-FreeBSD.ORG" , "freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org" , "freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org" Subject: Re: Results of BIND RFC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 13:57:12 -0000 On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 02:08:27PM -0400, Charles Sprickman typed: > Can we do sendmail next April 1? Better yet, defer all questions about moving out of the base system by referring to the Grand Discussion that'll take place *next year* on the first of april. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 3 15:50:23 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DCEC106566B; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:50:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@icyb.net.ua) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB62B8FC1D; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:50:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.topspin.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id SAA14970; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 18:50:20 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@icyb.net.ua) Received: from localhost.topspin.kiev.ua ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.topspin.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1Ny5c3-00090O-PN; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 18:50:19 +0300 Message-ID: <4BB763BB.6090304@icyb.net.ua> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 18:50:19 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100321) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@FreeBSD.org References: <20100326211706.GI18894@FreeBSD.org> <20100327102729.3bb8fba4@ernst.jennejohn.org> <1269687444.35918.9.camel@balrog.2hip.net> In-Reply-To: <1269687444.35918.9.camel@balrog.2hip.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-U Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Gleb Smirnoff , gary.jennejohn@freenet.de, Robert Noland Subject: Re: touch panel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 15:50:23 -0000 on 27/03/2010 12:57 Robert Noland said the following: > I'm not certain what the best way to achieve this is, but our input > layer is currently pretty frustrating to deal with, especially when you > throw HAL or DeviceKit into the mix. We have to go to a lot of effort > to figure out if mice are using moused or not, and if they should be > advertised to X. Just my 2 bits: horizontal mouse scroll is also not possible at the moment. -- Andriy Gapon