From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 28 19:16:52 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C3FB106564A for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:16:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from falkman@gamozo.org) Received: from epicblunt.blendfresh.net (epicblunt.blendfresh.net [97.107.136.32]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB5518FC0C for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:16:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.146] (75-134-26-25.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com [75.134.26.25]) (authenticated bits=0) by epicblunt.blendfresh.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1SInlRt021215 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:49:49 -0600 Message-ID: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:49:23 -0600 From: Brandon Falk User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20100203) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:16:52 -0000 Hello there FreeBSD people, Why is it that FreeBSD is so far behind Linux in popularity? The fact that lots of companies are not very supportive of FreeBSD (ex. NVIDIA and ATI 64-bit drivers) is really starting to bother me. I guess I would like to have a bit of a discussion of what could be improved to increase the popularity of FreeBSD, as honestly I can do almost everything in FreeBSD that I can in Linux, so why can't FreeBSD thrive as much as Linux. Is it that it is harder to install/configure? Any opinions/ideas on this situation? -Brandon Falk From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 28 19:46:41 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B1D1065672 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:46:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lars@e.0x20.net) Received: from mail.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [217.69.67.217]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB4718FC08 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:46:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail.0x20.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id D8E7A39DFE; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:46:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:46:39 +0100 From: Lars Engels To: Brandon Falk Message-ID: <20100228194639.GD60770@e.0x20.net> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4jXrM3lyYWu4nBt5" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 7.2 X-Operation-System: FreeBSD 5.5-RELEASE-p19 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:46:41 -0000 --4jXrM3lyYWu4nBt5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:49:23PM -0600, Brandon Falk wrote: > Hello there FreeBSD people, >=20 > Why is it that FreeBSD is so far behind Linux in popularity? The fact=20 > that lots of companies are not very supportive of FreeBSD (ex. NVIDIA=20 > and ATI 64-bit drivers) is really starting to bother me. I guess I would= =20 > like to have a bit of a discussion of what could be improved to increase= =20 > the popularity of FreeBSD, as honestly I can do almost everything in=20 > FreeBSD that I can in Linux, so why can't FreeBSD thrive as much as=20 > Linux. Is it that it is harder to install/configure? Any opinions/ideas= =20 > on this situation? Linux was / is hyped by the media and reached a critical mass of users and developers so that it stays in everybodys head. --4jXrM3lyYWu4nBt5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkuKyB8ACgkQKc512sD3afht0ACgoptnFkNZa9LcUcofaLpUqH0C k2IAoK9Avo4cK64TVS3Q0P+3GVa07h7A =HWYO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4jXrM3lyYWu4nBt5-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 28 20:30:39 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2629A106564A for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:30:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpetsmoker-dated-1268079207.64413d@rwxrwxrwx.net) Received: from cthulhu.daemonforums.org (cthulhu.daemonforums.org [94.142.244.51]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0F7B8FC0C for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:30:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by cthulhu.daemonforums.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id AD07C17041; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:13:27 +0100 (CET) Received: by cthulhu.daemonforums.org (tmda-sendmail, from uid 1001); Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:13:26 +0100 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:13:25 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20100228201322.GA82783@rwxrwxrwx.net> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Martin Tournoij Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, falkman@gamozo.org Cc: falkman@gamozo.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:30:39 -0000 On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:49:23PM -0600, Brandon Falk wrote: > Why is it that FreeBSD is so far behind Linux in popularity? The fact > that lots of companies are not very supportive of FreeBSD (ex. NVIDIA > and ATI 64-bit drivers) is really starting to bother me. The reason there are no 64bit nVidia drivers is because the FreeBSD kernel is missing some features that are needed for this. (I believe there are beta 64bit drivers now though?). In any case, it is hardly fair to blame nvidia. > I guess I would like to have a bit of a discussion of what could be improved > to increase the popularity of FreeBSD. Nothing. FreeBSD has no plans or illusions to take over the world. > Any opinions/ideas on this situation? There is no situation. -- Martin Tournoij carpetsmoker@rwxrwxrwx.net | (+031) 621 991 576 http://www.carpetsmoker.net | http://www.daemonforums.org QOTD: If in doubt, mumble. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 28 22:32:37 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD480106564A for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:32:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from corky1951@comcast.net) Received: from qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.48]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CB4B8FC0C for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:32:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta21.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.72]) by qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id nUKk1d0071ZXKqc55aYdEl; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:32:37 +0000 Received: from comcast.net ([98.203.142.76]) by omta21.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id naah1d0021f6R9u3haah99; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:34:42 +0000 Received: by comcast.net (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:32:34 -0800 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:32:34 -0800 From: Charlie Kester To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20100228223233.GA2894@comcast.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 1.5.20 X-Composer: VIM 7.2 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 22:32:37 -0000 On Sun 28 Feb 2010 at 10:49:23 PST Brandon Falk wrote: >Hello there FreeBSD people, > >Why is it that FreeBSD is so far behind Linux in popularity? The fact >that lots of companies are not very supportive of FreeBSD (ex. NVIDIA >and ATI 64-bit drivers) is really starting to bother me. I guess I >would like to have a bit of a discussion of what could be improved to >increase the popularity of FreeBSD, as honestly I can do almost >everything in FreeBSD that I can in Linux, so why can't FreeBSD >thrive as much as Linux. Is it that it is harder to install/configure? >Any opinions/ideas on this situation? Other than missing drivers, how has FreeBSD's "lack of popularity" affected you? You yourself say that you can do almost everything in FreeBSD that you can in Linux. So where's the rub? Perhaps it's just the uncertainty that comes over us when our choices aren't validated by others? If so, get over it. Or take comfort in the fact that the people on the @freebsd.org mailing lists *have* made the same choice as you. The FreeBSD project is alive and well, and doesn't seem to need or want a mass migration of users from the Linux, Mac or Windows world. Many BSD'ers think the price that would have to be paid to win those converts is too high: we don't want BSD to become just like Windows, or the Mac, or Linux. In fact, some people think we've already gone too far... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 28 23:54:11 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EAAE106566C for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:54:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) Received: from geniegate.com (geniegate.com [65.18.174.84]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA0848FC18 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:54:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from geniegate.com (geniegate.com [65.18.174.84]) by geniegate.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1SNPifu009873 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:25:44 GMT (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by geniegate.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id o1SNPir9009872 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:25:44 GMT (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) X-Authentication-Warning: geniegate.com: joe set sender to jamie@geniegate.com using -f Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:53:53 -0600 From: Jamie To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20100228185353.GA4307@apollo.podro.com> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:54:11 -0000 On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:49:23PM -0600, Brandon Falk wrote: > Why is it that FreeBSD is so far behind Linux in popularity? The fact > that lots of companies are not very supportive of FreeBSD (ex. NVIDIA > and ATI 64-bit drivers) is really starting to bother me. o IBM When IBM first started getting mixed up with Linux, I was concerned, thinking they'd do to it what they did to OS/2, (it's still a concern actually) but it seems to have actually done some good for Linux. Apple kind of screwed the FreeBSD community by taking BSD and some-how hiding it from their users. You don't exactly see Apple "bragging" that they use BSD, it's more like their dirty little secret. (Apple is, IMO, a horrible company to get as far away from as possible, arrogant, snarky and just plain awful.) o Dot Com During the 90's there was much talk about "linux technology" on the financial news networks by people who didn't understand it. There are a lot of people who have no idea what UNIX is, or even what an operating system is, but they've heard about "linux". Usually, they say "linux is good for servers, windows is good for desktop" we need this changed to "linux is good for desktop, freebsd is good for servers". o RedHat/Debian/Mandrake/... Linux has more "openings" for 3rd parties to create their own distros, this means, multiple vendors have reason to promote it. (Not suggesting anything here..) o gtar/tar/star/btar/blah In BSD (DragonflyBSD,FreeBSD,OpenBSD) there is a real attitude problem, the idea seems to be "GNU sucks and you should use BSD alternatives". I like the GNU, I don't like having to have 18 versions of "make" around (gmake, make, bmake, smake...) or 20 variants of "tar". Most people don't know or care about such things. You don't really see GNU-folk bashing BSD, why does BSD have to bash GNU? Why not say the GNU complements BSD for certain things? Probably lots of other factors I'm leaving out. (Such as commercial support by multiple vendors, you can see the word "Linux" on various product boxes) > I guess I would > like to have a bit of a discussion of what could be improved to increase > the popularity of FreeBSD, as honestly I can do almost everything in > FreeBSD that I can in Linux, so why can't FreeBSD thrive as much as > Linux. Is it that it is harder to install/configure? Any opinions/ideas > on this situation? I like both platforms. I'd say bug hosting providers about it, call radio shows, bug vendors about it. Hosting providers and radio shows in particular. (If you know someone at IBM... bug them too..) just get the word "FreeBSD" into the collective. It would be good to find an "IBM for BSD", but it would appear Oracle and IBM are the only companies left.. There is one really CRITICAL thing I have to say.. Don't alienate linux users!!!! FreeBSD isn't trendy enough to "pull an apple", we can't afford to be so arrogant. I was on a linux IRC channel the other night, this FreeBSD nut-job joined and started telling all the linuxer's that "their platform stinks..." this isn't helping... the right way is to tell them linux is great for A,B,C but FreeBSD is better for X,Y,Z. Don't alienate people, no one likes to hear they're stupid. (and many linuxers do identify strongly with their platform, an attack on linux is personal) I see a lot of this going on, from general attitudes to pictures of penguines being sexually assaulted. This paints FreeBSD into the the image of a childish, and frankly offensive, gang of creeps no one would want to be associated with. (the irony being of course, most FreeBSD folks tend to be a little older, while linux tends to have a lot of "punks") Linux and the flyswatter can get away with it because microsoft is soooo huge and it's not as sexually charged. People don't "identify" with insects like a butterfly as they might a penguin, frog or other animal, and anyway, windows users don't usually feel as personally connected to their OS. If you were IBM, how would you feel about supporting a platform with cartoons of its mascott raping a partner? (or even competitor..) Microsoft (as a server) is the problem, not Linux. Linux seems to be doing more to take over the windows world, this has problems (like crappy bloated windows-like software on linux.. that eventually infiltrates FreeBSD..) but I still think it's good that linux is doing that. FreeBSD meanwhile, stands at the ready for server stuff. Tell people how great freebsd is, not how crappy linux is. Remind them that we're all "unix-like", so you're not loosing anything by selecting freebsd for server stuff, you can still use linux as a workstation. Jamie -- http://www.geniegate.com Custom web programming Perl * Java * UNIX User Management Solutions From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 00:26:58 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA49D106564A for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 00:26:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brett@lariat.net) Received: from lariat.net (lariat.net [66.119.58.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510A88FC08 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 00:26:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from anne-o1dpaayth1.lariat.net (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.net@lariat.net [66.119.58.2]) by lariat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21457; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:26:52 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <201003010026.RAA21457@lariat.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:26:46 -0700 To: Jamie , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20100228185353.GA4307@apollo.podro.com> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <20100228185353.GA4307@apollo.podro.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 00:26:58 -0000 At 11:53 AM 2/28/2010, Jamie wrote: > In BSD (DragonflyBSD,FreeBSD,OpenBSD) there is a real attitude > problem, the idea seems to be "GNU sucks and you should use BSD > alternatives". The problem is with the licensing. Those of us who are professional developers and develop commercial software cannot safely inspect GPLed code for legal reasons. This is why I and many other developers favor a completely BSD-licensed solution. > You don't really see GNU-folk bashing BSD, Actually, you do. And they do something even funnier -- they try to put their own stamp on Linux. (Just call it "Linux" in front of Richard Stallman, and you won't hear the end of it. He'll yell, "It's GNU/Linux. Gnooooooooooooooooo-LINUX!") Which is doubly ironic because every Linux distribution contains bunches of code from BSD. ;-) --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 01:06:24 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7D51065672 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 01:06:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from corky1951@comcast.net) Received: from qmta01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA788FC1F for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 01:06:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta23.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.74]) by qmta01.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ncGA1d0071c6gX851d6Q2F; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 01:06:24 +0000 Received: from comcast.net ([98.203.142.76]) by omta23.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id nd8Y1d00K1f6R9u3jd8ZK0; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 01:08:34 +0000 Received: by comcast.net (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:06:21 -0800 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:06:21 -0800 From: Charlie Kester To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20100301010620.GB2894@comcast.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <20100228185353.GA4307@apollo.podro.com> <201003010026.RAA21457@lariat.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201003010026.RAA21457@lariat.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 1.5.20 X-Composer: VIM 7.2 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 01:06:24 -0000 On Sun 28 Feb 2010 at 16:26:46 PST Brett Glass wrote: >At 11:53 AM 2/28/2010, Jamie wrote: > >> In BSD (DragonflyBSD,FreeBSD,OpenBSD) there is a real attitude >> problem, the idea seems to be "GNU sucks and you should use BSD >> alternatives". > >The problem is with the licensing. Those of us who are professional >developers and develop commercial software cannot safely inspect >GPLed code for legal reasons. This is why I and many other developers >favor a completely BSD-licensed solution. No, it's more than the GPL licensing, although that's bad enough. GNU software is often bloated. Way too many commandline switches (using an overly verbose syntax). Feature creep everywhere, not just on the commandline. It runs counter to the basic Unix philosophy of small, cooperating programs, each doing one thing and doing it well. If you don't understand that there's an aesthetic aspect to Unix, you'll miss what a lot of people are complaining about with GNUish stuff. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 01:15:44 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FBA31065672 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 01:15:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brett@lariat.net) Received: from lariat.net (lariat.net [66.119.58.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB14D8FC0C for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 01:15:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from anne-o1dpaayth1.lariat.net (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.net@lariat.net [66.119.58.2]) by lariat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21874; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:15:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <201003010115.SAA21874@lariat.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:15:32 -0700 To: Charlie Kester , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20100301010620.GB2894@comcast.net> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <20100228185353.GA4307@apollo.podro.com> <201003010026.RAA21457@lariat.net> <20100301010620.GB2894@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 01:15:44 -0000 At 06:06 PM 2/28/2010, Charlie Kester wrote: >If you don't understand that there's an aesthetic aspect to Unix, you'll >miss what a lot of people are complaining about with GNUish stuff. There's that, too. So many longwinded command line options that they had to start using double dashes. And Linux also tends to follow System V conventions, some of which were changed from the BSD ones by AT&T just to make things annoyingly different. Then again, there never really was a "UNIX style manual." There probably should have been, so that command line options (among other things) were more consistent. But as often happens, the coders were too busy coding to take a step back and consider this. In any case, I like the fact that I can hop back and forth between FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, and the command line shell in MacOS without having to reprogram my fingers. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 05:35:16 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC5DB1065672 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 05:35:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from frank@shute.org.uk) Received: from atmail-8.bnguk.net (atmail-8.bnguk.net [80.74.253.5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D1508FC15 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 05:35:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from 77-44-105-82.xdsl.murphx.net ([77.44.105.82] helo=orange.esperance-linux.co.uk) by atmail-8.bnguk.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NlyHi-00011m-Ox; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 05:35:14 +0000 Received: by orange.esperance-linux.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 788444AC20; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 05:35:14 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 05:35:14 +0000 From: Frank Shute To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, falkman@gamozo.org Message-ID: <20100301053514.GA5440@orange.esperance-linux.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, falkman@gamozo.org References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <20100228201322.GA82783@rwxrwxrwx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100228201322.GA82783@rwxrwxrwx.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Face: *}~{PHnDTzvXPe'wl_-f%!@+r5; VLhb':*DsX%wEOPg\fDrXWQJf|2\,92"DdS%63t*BHDyQ|OWo@Gfjcd72eaN!4%NE{0]p)ihQ1MyFNtWL X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 8.0-RELEASE-p2 amd64 X-Organisation: 'shute.org.uk' Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Shute List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 05:35:16 -0000 On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 09:13:25PM +0100, Martin Tournoij wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:49:23PM -0600, Brandon Falk wrote: > > > Why is it that FreeBSD is so far behind Linux in popularity? The fact > > that lots of companies are not very supportive of FreeBSD (ex. NVIDIA > > and ATI 64-bit drivers) is really starting to bother me. > > The reason there are no 64bit nVidia drivers is because the FreeBSD kernel is > missing some features that are needed for this. (I believe there are beta > 64bit drivers now though?). > In any case, it is hardly fair to blame nvidia. I have to leap to nvidia's defense also. They worked hard with the FreeBSD team to come up with a 64-bit driver which I'm currently running without problems on AMD64: x11/nvidia-driver > > > I guess I would like to have a bit of a discussion of what could be improved > > to increase the popularity of FreeBSD. > > Nothing. FreeBSD has no plans or illusions to take over the world. Correct. It's minding it's own business > > > Any opinions/ideas on this situation? > > There is no situation. I've seen Linux go from quite a nice OS to one that is dominated by a few individual companies: RH, IBM, Novell. I don't want that to happen with FreeBSD. If it does; NetBSD here I come ;) To be honest, I think the licence puts off most of the commercial entities. Which is a *good* thing. Regards, -- Frank Contact info: http://www.shute.org.uk/misc/contact.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 08:46:42 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0393F106564A for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 08:46:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eitanadlerlist@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f223.google.com (mail-fx0-f223.google.com [209.85.220.223]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C1888FC08 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 08:46:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxm23 with SMTP id 23so415668fxm.3 for ; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 00:46:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jnpVB4ZpH4K2x2FXZr6D0bD4HR2J55tVc2aRvsERAns=; b=os7xQqtCaXcwPMc3cB8/4eVv9jJksAmD7TeBuJoC54aYhmOKI5SELZVGzPWLIOUlOe 2CJ/GxJxjPUyXUt03vCqINRdx2WEeQtkdoePqNR2vb8mQfux6Z45yjYn6m03bE9rprHA BNVfbyuYsfjGPaMQmge/64V902s9fCFropvR0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=naFYhblM467wg/ibHWMjmFStPEWPzY/Yj4PmoU9WcCUuAnFKfQId65KKV8v3yRdbjv eK1M2/3pM3Dmo3du59oi5XUrHFTsE8NZS2YovnJejip42oHBw0tNRtyIaWIDPQR9Ki7w CoIgmKBYavrvVsXlfM/OQCqnHzQOkJxBA+208= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.157.10 with SMTP id o10mr411563hbc.84.1267431606134; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 00:20:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100228185353.GA4307@apollo.podro.com> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <20100228185353.GA4307@apollo.podro.com> From: Eitan Adler Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 10:19:46 +0200 Message-ID: To: Jamie Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 08:46:42 -0000 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Usually, they say "linux is good for servers, windows is go= od for > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0desktop" we need this changed to "linux is good for deskto= p, freebsd > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0is good for servers". freeBSD runs very well on my desktop ;) > > o gtar/tar/star/btar/blah > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0In BSD (DragonflyBSD,FreeBSD,OpenBSD) there is a real atti= tude > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0problem, the idea seems to be "GNU sucks and you should us= e BSD > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0alternatives". I like the GNU, I don't like having to have= 18 > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0versions of "make" around (gmake, make, bmake, smake...) o= r 20 > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0variants of "tar". Most people don't know or care about su= ch things. I agree. I find it annoying when a program depends on gtar or gmake. Why can't people just use portable options? > I like both platforms. Agreeds > Tell people how great freebsd is, not how crappy linux is. Remind them > that we're all "unix-like", so you're not loosing anything by selecting > freebsd for server stuff, you can still use linux as a workstation. And you could still use freeBSD a desktop or Linux as a server. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 09:33:24 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 670EA1065672 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:33:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.seaman@black-earth.co.uk) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (gate6.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40308FC17 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:33:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from seedling.black-earth.co.uk (seedling.black-earth.co.uk [81.187.76.163]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o219XHln029801 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:33:18 GMT (envelope-from m.seaman@black-earth.co.uk) Message-ID: <4B8B89D8.3000304@black-earth.co.uk> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 09:33:12 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100216 Thunderbird/3.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <20100228201322.GA82783@rwxrwxrwx.net> <20100301053514.GA5440@orange.esperance-linux.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20100301053514.GA5440@orange.esperance-linux.co.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig9DE178590F8967F5E75269AA" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_ADSP_ALL, SPF_FAIL,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=no version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 09:33:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig9DE178590F8967F5E75269AA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/03/2010 05:35:14, Frank Shute wrote: > To be honest, I think the licence puts off most of the commercial > entities. Which is a *good* thing. Which is utterly bizarre. The BSD / Apache / MIT/Xorg style license is considerably less onerous for any business to comply with than the GPL (especially the most recent versions). Part of the reason I suspect is perceptual. There's more BSD stuff around than you might think. The BSD license (at least in the 2- or 3- clause forms) perhaps makes it too easy for a company to use BSD-licensed technology in a hidden way. Sure, the copyright of the original authors will be acknowledged, but in the small print hidden at the end of the manual, not in some obvious place. The GPL does tend to cause the license terms to be displayed at the slightest opportunity. Not that I propose reintroducing the advertising clause -- getting companies to give greater prominence to their use of BSD technologies is a social and marketing problem that doesn't need to be solved by some legal blunt instrument. Then again, the fact that BSDs on the whole don't go in for aggressive evangelism appeals to me. It would be interesting to see what the breakdown of different licenses was for the open source code produced by eg. Google (which most people would automatically assume is a Linuxista company.) I've a sneaking suspicion that their default is to use the Apache license, except where the viral provisions of the GPL prevent that. Cheers, Matthew --=20 Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard, Flat 3 Black Earth Consulting Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW Free and Open Source Solutions Tel: +44 (0)1843 580647 --------------enig9DE178590F8967F5E75269AA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkuLid0ACgkQ8Mjk52CukIwDEwCfYTGCaB7Efic+J4k1alPVOhof GAwAoICa4yQEv5niEZwJwmzBqXntd+rl =oMKl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig9DE178590F8967F5E75269AA-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 15:24:47 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1040C106564A for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 15:24:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rnodal@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f226.google.com (mail-ew0-f226.google.com [209.85.219.226]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A033A8FC22 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 15:24:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ewy26 with SMTP id 26so1333365ewy.3 for ; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 07:24:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=BTGYdLFS7VjkeS3Jwwe9Bl0u3SkJX4yRjJcEhsX6Yac=; b=d8w7btGYdRosnPaAPJXov55Df2IjyIgaKFkAN4GRACWJHoP9djqyoKZ0an/M1X/kEe Rh+LOcUZENu5o1FnDE5MeUOX9rJ8QFkq+sw5EgqC82DOdXFsJSCd4L3Oeq8TMk1Qi3OC Nm19hQxyVMRB43P9seo71WVYUMNT/6ioDpN40= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=Ex/+i2uwczDGB6SBfk3LKevROeDLW1J78+poljjiM1eh5chZ9rU+e4BZSH4tyRkMoc HKrWMSl2962qYhXqHJl3uZpWyUcqRDx23zG8KsGNCrlDx7CjoyJqFEL3IhH6uxZpUvCF tqIr1rDvJmuvXE6iwRP9UBTNcuyYAC29wUDM4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.100.160 with SMTP id y32mr2997023ebn.49.1267457079176; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 07:24:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> From: Roger Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 10:24:19 -0500 Message-ID: <9d972bed1003010724g5b64123ap5ff18c408dc0a7e@mail.gmail.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 15:24:47 -0000 FreeBSD should continue to innovate and not imitate. I was a Linux (Desktop and Server) user, now I am a FreeBSD user (Desktop and Server) and I could not be any happier. I did not install FreeBSD because someone came and got in my face and advocated about it. I did it on my own. FreeBSD got me just by being FreeBSD and by offering what it offers. No marketing needed. So I would love it if FreeBSD continues to improve and involve without being influenced by Linux, Windows or Mac. -r From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 16:13:26 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F35331065672 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:13:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) Received: from geniegate.com (geniegate.com [65.18.174.84]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA978FC0C for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:13:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from geniegate.com (geniegate.com [65.18.174.84]) by geniegate.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o21GGYbO044040 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:16:34 GMT (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by geniegate.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id o21GGYTS044039 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:16:34 GMT (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) X-Authentication-Warning: geniegate.com: joe set sender to jamie@geniegate.com using -f Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 05:44:45 -0600 From: Jamie To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20100301114445.GB26935@apollo.podro.com> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <9d972bed1003010724g5b64123ap5ff18c408dc0a7e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9d972bed1003010724g5b64123ap5ff18c408dc0a7e@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 16:13:27 -0000 On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 10:24:19AM -0500, Roger wrote: > FreeBSD should continue to innovate and not imitate. > I was a Linux (Desktop and Server) user, now I am a FreeBSD user > (Desktop and Server) and I could not be any happier. I'm a freebsd server user, tried it on the desktop but some applications just didn't work. > I did not install FreeBSD because someone came and got in my face and > advocated about it. I did it on my own. Obviously you had to have known about FreeBSD to do it on your own. > FreeBSD got me just by being FreeBSD and by offering what it offers. > No marketing needed. I disagree to some extent, case in point is the jail functionality, there are linux users who consider chroot to be the same thing, they simply don't know the difference (worse.. there are packages out there claiming to give it jail functionality but really it's just a chroot'ed login, this is misleading) Performance under heavy load is another thing linux users probably aren't aware of. (I wasn't!) It's hard to find a hosting provider that'll do FreeBSD, this I assume is because people aren't asking for it and people aren't asking for it because they probably don't know about it (or why it's good for server level stuff) Clearly, some "marketing" is needed if we are to have choices in the future about hosting. It's not linux users in particular though, a lot of people who *make the decisions* don't even know what linux is, they just hear a lot of hype about it and figure "everyone else is using linux, so it must be better". I see this all the time with PHP and MySQL, when I suggest postgresql for some applications, it's "brought to my attention" that postgresql has "fallen behind" mysql by the business owners who make these decisions. (and PHP... well.. thats way better.. because it won the popularity contest) These are people who don't know what linux or UNIX or referential integrity is. They don't see that just because it's "easier" to get started with linux or mysql, it doesn't make them better tools, it just makes them more popular tools among the masses. When 20 people say mysql and I say postgresql, in the eyes of someone who really doesn't know.. they'll always choose mysql. > So I would love it if FreeBSD continues to improve and involve without > being influenced by Linux, Windows or Mac. I don't mind if freebsd takes the good things from linux and mac, I just hope the base system never requires an X server and a bazillion gnome libraries... :-) One thing about linux and marketing, linux HAS done a lot of good toward bringing alternatives to the windows crowd mindshare. Jamie -- http://www.geniegate.com Custom web programming Perl * Java * UNIX User Management Solutions From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 16:41:35 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6AE51065670 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:41:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexsm@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f223.google.com (mail-fx0-f223.google.com [209.85.220.223]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FAF78FC0C for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:41:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxm23 with SMTP id 23so295777fxm.3 for ; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 08:41:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:from:date:message-id :subject:to:content-type; bh=W89jm19Dzr1gU5ohNcQAZrO3FG9FRFwzZAEAKKU8aQQ=; b=YrkYMyLl4rzvGOnErSW0AXVAB/SJQzVB/Upfw2yD8cg2UG7mHqmz3ycO1PwhTAOhFM K4wC9mLV9EJ41WUm1TzX6C+KKTrrfnFYddde8EN8tREtnUhoWxlGuZflxB14wp4CEGTL qJLh5PReyM7Zg1AxBNmKa4PWS1WfpMp1Q0Wrs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; b=N16npaz8UC7j6hQohrEWLdlo68olStU9eEgcCKGunv91mNejCSE2ZDBUMYUNkuNYAq CgXxafRWrBG3tj6KfTbE2tq3ASwcnI5/ZNxRU8vIiw1P7DgUS0LjExbfojp0K6Vad/lI jeALK3Z3d7B/d5TWDQMjRpR2lxLWwMNficc6I= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.184.9 with SMTP id w9mr486313hbg.120.1267461689170; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 08:41:29 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Moura Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:41:09 -0300 Message-ID: To: FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: More Open Source Alternatives for the Office X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 16:41:35 -0000 More Open Source Alternatives for the Office http://olex.openlogic.com/wazi/2009/more-open-source-alternatives-for-the-office/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 18:14:09 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23E3106566C for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 18:14:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rnodal@gmail.com) Received: from ey-out-2122.google.com (ey-out-2122.google.com [74.125.78.25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ACEC8FC0A for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 18:14:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ey-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 25so501091eya.9 for ; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 10:14:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=MXT1Hkmub799pBC0/VchgQvPHjbbwXTtWdTUQBZVNRY=; b=GZcMLOHrMrZuLqXGfG6Ae/bb/B4vg9f2kv9eCz4zaSHxMdewOGRdy0r/IfB75vBdGW FULlWyX2z7nSPpUNNUdyxMEiCmgsNSesL13DGMGSpc1jWE9HBOzCj8zXPdLeoh/mt99e L3/VeSAlVN305IYFSKUsu5aYoYw7BYKlWoDRc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=KYYFfRQMrn+6iDdX75lf+Ju+0acUDZcUhjsV4rncrOU6nMhT0csW2BVevF/TCj/sz/ MRPnmWjiDs7Q0OPD4qvU/v3svWva5/xRntzmKqRpqm9BHnL46k5pPFGszJgOV6TjCSxV UrPqPKTqYQmfC+gNqtNCG6SJ6VO76aROYFKeI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.97.88 with SMTP id k24mr3710137ebn.86.1267467242274; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 10:14:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100301114445.GB26935@apollo.podro.com> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <9d972bed1003010724g5b64123ap5ff18c408dc0a7e@mail.gmail.com> <20100301114445.GB26935@apollo.podro.com> From: Roger Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:13:42 -0500 Message-ID: <9d972bed1003011013w33c09017te962078be7768406@mail.gmail.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 18:14:10 -0000 >> FreeBSD should continue to innovate and not imitate. >> I was a Linux (Desktop and Server) user, now I am a FreeBSD user >> (Desktop and Server) and I could not be any happier. > > I'm a freebsd server user, tried it on the desktop but some applications > just didn't work. > I experienced the same but instead of dropping FreeBSD and re-considered my application choices. For example Gnome to awesome window manager. Firefox to Opera. Of course, some people cannot afford to reconsider their application choices. Lucky for me, a lot of the applications that I use, are available and easy to install from the ports. >> I did not install FreeBSD because someone came and got in my face and >> advocated about it. I did it on my own. > > Obviously you had to have known about FreeBSD to do it on your own. > Well, I got tired of Linux and I thank Linux for being there when I got tired of Microsoft. I just prefer the *BSD way better than the Linux way of grouping software. Also, I actually found OpenBSD before I found FreeBSD. But FreeBSD had jails and the alternative to FreeBSD under OpenBSD was discontinued. And this is what I'm talking about when I say that FreeBSD should aim to develop new or implement technology like that. Mac is based on FreeBSD so what is there to take from Mac? Graphical applications? >> FreeBSD got me just by being FreeBSD and by offering what it offers. >> No marketing needed. > > I disagree to some extent, case in point is the jail functionality, > there are linux users who consider chroot to be the same thing, they > simply don't know the difference (worse.. there are packages out there > claiming to give it jail functionality but really it's just a chroot'ed > login, this is misleading) > Well, fighting ignorance is not that easy. I knew the differences and that's why I went with FreeBSD :). > Performance under heavy load is another thing linux users probably > aren't aware of. (I wasn't!) > Could you elaborate on this point? If you don't mind. I'm always in the hunt for opportunities to learn what others have experienced. > It's hard to find a hosting provider that'll do FreeBSD, this I assume > is because people aren't asking for it and people aren't asking for it > because they probably don't know about it (or why it's good for server > level stuff) > I'm with you on this one. It still puzzles me. Even though I'm not qualify yet to provide any theories :) > Clearly, some "marketing" is needed if we are to have choices in the > future about hosting. > > It's not linux users in particular though, a lot of people who *make the > decisions* don't even know what linux is, they just hear a lot of hype > about it and figure "everyone else is using linux, so it must be > better". > I agree with you. My boss understand nothing about Linux yet we are using it. Just to quote my boss. "I don't love Linux but I hate it more that Linux". I'm working in a master plan to bring FreeBSD to the light ;). Any tips would be welcome :). > I see this all the time with PHP and MySQL, when I suggest postgresql > for some applications, it's "brought to my attention" that postgresql > has "fallen behind" mysql by the business owners who make these > decisions. (and PHP... well.. thats way better.. because it won the > popularity contest) > > These are people who don't know what linux or UNIX or referential > integrity is. They don't see that just because it's "easier" to get > started with linux or mysql, it doesn't make them better tools, it > just makes them more popular tools among the masses. > > When 20 people say mysql and I say postgresql, in the eyes of someone > who really doesn't know.. they'll always choose mysql. > I have also been guilty of being influenced by the popular choice. >> So I would love it if FreeBSD continues to improve and involve without >> being influenced by Linux, Windows or Mac. > > I don't mind if freebsd takes the good things from linux and mac, It all depends (for me that is) on what should be taken from those camps. I still have not run into the "I wish FreeBSD had ..... like ........ has" > I just > hope the base system never requires an X server and a bazillion gnome > libraries... :-) > Count me on that. -r From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 18:50:54 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB90C106567D for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 18:50:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexsm@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f223.google.com (mail-fx0-f223.google.com [209.85.220.223]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A3E8FC32 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 18:50:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxm23 with SMTP id 23so433594fxm.3 for ; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 10:50:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=ymRi9WT/Lh8i/SxWVkus2zveHTQnfPv7FWYJwUII23M=; b=QBVSCFh2K7EKH8i02Q4poOymYx6JiYBhiV0L1kwTU4cUdhZ8cHBWTX5DLMvSvkGVgQ 6mOriVxHZ9XUB4khUk2QaDQsag0xM2/aPRMt5+yIk44lk7vwEqUtcTcGZduiJYAV4Pa4 aGLfg+eoviNrgV0hAIZCaYCSO+HX7CPsEtD64= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=v8o4BkHzPWtGK4fZnG6pxBPvxwf96Humwui8ZTeH+TRV7LnUFaBI1eHypuAPp6hL58 FX1hXDnhDIc0jdnb/C04xiT48UVs8/mvvfIYH8FKFV6n5icUv77Bbu0JgUTK2EG+jiBd G+OVOKQiVNljg+Dxz7mdG7l/8HqIjTv+JII5U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.184.9 with SMTP id w9mr506753hbg.120.1267469449270; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 10:50:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9d972bed1003011013w33c09017te962078be7768406@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <9d972bed1003010724g5b64123ap5ff18c408dc0a7e@mail.gmail.com> <20100301114445.GB26935@apollo.podro.com> <9d972bed1003011013w33c09017te962078be7768406@mail.gmail.com> From: Alex Moura Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 15:50:29 -0300 Message-ID: To: FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 18:50:54 -0000 2010/3/1 Roger > (...) > > Performance under heavy load is another thing linux users probably > > aren't aware of. (I wasn't!) > > Could you elaborate on this point? If you don't mind. I'm always in the > hunt for opportunities to learn what others have experienced. > > > It's hard to find a hosting provider that'll do FreeBSD, this I assume > > is because people aren't asking for it and people aren't asking for it > > because they probably don't know about it (or why it's good for server > > level stuff) > > > > I'm with you on this one. It still puzzles me. Even though I'm not qualify > yet to provide any theories :) > I thought there was plenty of options for FreeBSD hosting around, given its popularity. Googling this string makes it spit a lot of results, including jails hostings. freebsd '(vps|hosting)' > > > Clearly, some "marketing" is needed if we are to have choices in the > > future about hosting. > > > > It's not linux users in particular though, a lot of people who *make the > > decisions* don't even know what linux is, they just hear a lot of hype > > about it and figure "everyone else is using linux, so it must be > > better". > > > > I agree with you. My boss understand nothing about Linux yet we are using > it. > Just to quote my boss. "I don't love Linux but I hate it more that Linux". > I'm working in a master plan to bring FreeBSD to the light ;). Any tips > would be welcome :). > Start here: FreeBSD Advocacy http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/ And there are some enlightening references: FreeBSD: An Open Source Alternative to Linux http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/linux-comparison/article.html Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix - From AT&T-Owned to Freely Redistributable http://oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html FreeBSD Project Administration and Management http://www.freebsd.org/administration.html Regards, Alex From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 19:23:18 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 561FF106564A for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 19:23:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from corky1951@comcast.net) Received: from qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.32]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043B88FC15 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 19:23:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta16.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.88]) by qmta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id np7t1d00B1uE5Es53vNBpf; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:22:11 +0000 Received: from comcast.net ([98.203.142.76]) by omta16.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id nvS61d0081f6R9u3cvS6U5; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:26:08 +0000 Received: by comcast.net (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 01 Mar 2010 11:23:14 -0800 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 11:23:14 -0800 From: Charlie Kester To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20100301192314.GD2894@comcast.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <9d972bed1003010724g5b64123ap5ff18c408dc0a7e@mail.gmail.com> <20100301114445.GB26935@apollo.podro.com> <9d972bed1003011013w33c09017te962078be7768406@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9d972bed1003011013w33c09017te962078be7768406@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 1.5.20 X-Composer: VIM 7.2 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:23:18 -0000 On Mon 01 Mar 2010 at 10:13:42 PST Roger wrote: > >I have also been guilty of being influenced by the popular choice. > When it comes to popularity, the question should always be "Popular with whom?" Popularity with the masses is a very unreliable indicator of quality or fitness to the task at hand. On the other hand, if the experts in the field all express a preference for one thing over another, that's definitely a good argument for using it yourself. The trick is in learning who the experts are and what they think about the matter. Even better is learning *why* they think thhe way they do -- how they approach the matter and how they reach their decisions. Then learn to do that yourself, so you can be your own expert. I wish I could say my decision to use FreeBSD was based on a process like that, but it wasn't. For me, it was mostly about aesthetics: I like my Unix neat, with no chaser. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 20:24:32 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876D01065677 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 20:24:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) Received: from iron1-mailrl.sfsu.edu (iron1-mailrl.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67A078FC1D for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 20:24:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Inbound-SFSU: False X-onepass: IPPSC X-From-SFSU: True X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAC6xi0uC1B9b/2dsb2JhbACbCHOvZQEJBYQJiFqCaoIRBIMXgSKBXYUg Received: from edg04.sfsu.edu ([130.212.31.91]) by iron1.sfsu.edu with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2010 12:24:32 -0800 Received: from EHB04.ad.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.28) by edg04.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.0.682.1; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:23:59 -0800 Received: from smtp01.sfsu.edu (130.212.10.100) by ehb.ad.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.0.682.1; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:24:31 -0800 Received: from libra.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.238]) by mail05a.sfsu.edu (Lotus Domino Release 7.0.4HF59) with ESMTP id 2010030112243029-521 ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:24:30 -0800 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:24:29 -0800 From: KAYVEN RIESE To: Jamie In-Reply-To: <20100228185353.GA4307@apollo.podro.com> Message-ID: References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <20100228185353.GA4307@apollo.podro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on MAIL05a/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.4HF59 | August 11, 2009) at 03/01/2010 12:24:30, Serialize by Router on SMTP01/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.4|March 23, 2009) at 03/01/2010 12:24:30, Serialize complete at 03/01/2010 12:24:30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 20:24:32 -0000 On Sun, 28 Feb 2010, Jamie wrote: > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:49:23PM -0600, Brandon Falk wrote: > You don't really see GNU-folk bashing BSD, why does BSD have to bash > GNU? Why not say the GNU complements BSD for certain things? Actually, I think there are oodles of examples of GPL vs. BSD license debates.. I suspect one to start here. BSD allows code to be sequestered into proprietary systems, while GPL does not. I expect you folks to talk amoungst yourselves now.. > > Jamie > -- > http://www.geniegate.com Custom web programming > Perl * Java * UNIX User Management Solutions > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 20:42:19 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1178B1065677 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 20:42:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) Received: from iron3-mailrl.sfsu.edu (iron3-mailrl.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.122]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5DB48FC30 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 20:42:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Inbound-SFSU: False X-onepass: IPPSC X-From-SFSU: True X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAO60i0uC1B9b/2dsb2JhbACbB3OvawEJBYQIiFqCaoIRBIMXgSKBXYUg Received: from edg04.sfsu.edu ([130.212.31.91]) by iron3.sfsu.edu with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2010 12:42:18 -0800 Received: from EHB04.ad.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.28) by edg04.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.0.682.1; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:41:45 -0800 Received: from smtp01.sfsu.edu (130.212.10.100) by ehb.ad.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.0.682.1; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:42:17 -0800 Received: from libra.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.238]) by mail05a.sfsu.edu (Lotus Domino Release 7.0.4HF59) with ESMTP id 2010030112421568-526 ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:42:15 -0800 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:42:15 -0800 From: KAYVEN RIESE To: Jamie In-Reply-To: <20100228185353.GA4307@apollo.podro.com> Message-ID: References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <20100228185353.GA4307@apollo.podro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on MAIL05a/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.4HF59 | August 11, 2009) at 03/01/2010 12:42:15, Serialize by Router on SMTP01/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.4|March 23, 2009) at 03/01/2010 12:42:17, Serialize complete at 03/01/2010 12:42:17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 20:42:19 -0000 On Sun, 28 Feb 2010, Jamie wrote: > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:49:23PM -0600, Brandon Falk wrote: > > I see a lot of this going on, from general attitudes to pictures of > penguines being sexually assaulted. This paints FreeBSD into the the hahahahaha {:D I love my t-shirt! I think the little bugger likes it! http://blog.dcbsdcon.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/med_freebsd_fuck_linux.jpg http://www.monkeyview.net/id/965/lost/lost.vhtml > > > Jamie > -- > http://www.geniegate.com Custom web programming > Perl * Java * UNIX User Management Solutions > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 23:57:40 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA251065672 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 23:57:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) Received: from geniegate.com (geniegate.com [65.18.174.84]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E48338FC13 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 23:57:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from geniegate.com (geniegate.com [65.18.174.84]) by geniegate.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o2200m74060697 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 00:00:48 GMT (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by geniegate.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id o2200mu8060696 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 00:00:48 GMT (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) X-Authentication-Warning: geniegate.com: joe set sender to jamie@geniegate.com using -f Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:29:01 -0600 From: Jamie To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20100301192901.GC26935@apollo.podro.com> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <9d972bed1003010724g5b64123ap5ff18c408dc0a7e@mail.gmail.com> <20100301114445.GB26935@apollo.podro.com> <9d972bed1003011013w33c09017te962078be7768406@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 23:57:40 -0000 On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 03:50:29PM -0300, Alex Moura wrote: > 2010/3/1 Roger > I thought there was plenty of options for FreeBSD hosting around, given its > popularity. Googling this string makes it spit a lot of results, including > jails > hostings. > > freebsd '(vps|hosting)' Try to actually find one, not just the google resuls. There aren't many, I was lucky in that I found a dedicated host, reasonably priced that'll run freebsd. (and only older ones.. I'm too chicken to upgrade via remote) > > I agree with you. My boss understand nothing about Linux yet we are using > > it. > > Just to quote my boss. "I don't love Linux but I hate it more that Linux". > > I'm working in a master plan to bring FreeBSD to the light ;). Any tips > > would be welcome :). > > > > Start here: > > FreeBSD Advocacy > http://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/ The trouble with advocacy is that, the more you try to flood people with information, the more turned off they are. It very quickly reaches a point where they get annoyed with your suggestion and will insist on doing their thing, simply to spite you. Haven't had any success with this.. (and rather doubt I will..) but I've been using the tactic of "It's too bad we don't have FreeBSD's scheduler, things would probably run more smoothly" or lean base or jails or.. backups would be easier with snapshots. But then leave it at that, briefly. If you start pitching it, people immediately turn away. Jamie -- http://www.geniegate.com Custom web programming Perl * Java * UNIX User Management Solutions From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 00:03:31 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE50A10656C1 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 00:03:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) Received: from iron1-mailrl.sfsu.edu (iron1-mailrl.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 400078FC3F for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 00:02:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Inbound-SFSU: False X-onepass: IPPSC X-From-SFSU: True X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAIPki0uC1B9c/2dsb2JhbACbBnOwJAEJBYQoiFqCaoIRBIMXgSKBXYUg Received: from edg03.sfsu.edu ([130.212.31.92]) by iron1.sfsu.edu with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2010 16:02:34 -0800 Received: from EHB03.ad.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.27) by edg03.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.92) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.0.682.1; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:02:33 -0800 Received: from smtp01.sfsu.edu (130.212.10.100) by ehb.ad.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.0.682.1; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:02:33 -0800 Received: from libra.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.238]) by mail05a.sfsu.edu (Lotus Domino Release 7.0.4HF59) with ESMTP id 2010030116023095-541 ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:02:30 -0800 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:02:31 -0800 From: KAYVEN RIESE To: Eitan Adler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <20100228185353.GA4307@apollo.podro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on MAIL05a/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.4HF59 | August 11, 2009) at 03/01/2010 16:02:31, Serialize by Router on SMTP01/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.4|March 23, 2009) at 03/01/2010 16:02:32, Serialize complete at 03/01/2010 16:02:32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; format=flowed Cc: Jamie , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 00:03:32 -0000 On Mon, 1 Mar 2010, Eitan Adler wrote: > >> Tell people how great freebsd is, not how crappy linux is. Remind them >> that we're all "unix-like", so you're not loosing anything by selecting >> freebsd for server stuff, you can still use linux as a workstation. > > And you could still use freeBSD a desktop or Linux as a server. Forgive me for belaboring the obvious, but meanwhile, but Microsoft servers are far less indicated.. I'm wondering if anyone feels like opining on MacOSX's Darwin dirty little secret kernel acting as a server. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 00:14:26 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D55AA1065672 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 00:14:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) Received: from iron3-mailrl.sfsu.edu (iron3-mailrl.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.122]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2CF48FC16 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 00:14:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Inbound-SFSU: False X-onepass: IPPSC X-From-SFSU: True X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEACfmi0uC1B9b/2dsb2JhbACbBnOwIwEJBYQoiFqCaoIRBIMXgSKBXYUg Received: from edg04.sfsu.edu ([130.212.31.91]) by iron3.sfsu.edu with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2010 16:14:26 -0800 Received: from EHB03.ad.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.27) by edg04.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.0.682.1; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:13:53 -0800 Received: from smtp01.sfsu.edu (130.212.10.100) by ehb.ad.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.0.682.1; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:14:25 -0800 Received: from libra.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.238]) by mail05a.sfsu.edu (Lotus Domino Release 7.0.4HF59) with ESMTP id 2010030116142308-544 ; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:14:23 -0800 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:14:23 -0800 From: KAYVEN RIESE To: Jamie In-Reply-To: <20100301114445.GB26935@apollo.podro.com> Message-ID: References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <9d972bed1003010724g5b64123ap5ff18c408dc0a7e@mail.gmail.com> <20100301114445.GB26935@apollo.podro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on MAIL05a/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.4HF59 | August 11, 2009) at 03/01/2010 16:14:23, Serialize by Router on SMTP01/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.4|March 23, 2009) at 03/01/2010 16:14:24, Serialize complete at 03/01/2010 16:14:24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; format=flowed Cc: rudy rucker , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, alex menendez Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 00:14:27 -0000 On Mon, 1 Mar 2010, Jamie wrote: > On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 10:24:19AM -0500, Roger wrote: > > It's hard to find a hosting provider that'll do FreeBSD, this I assume > is because people aren't asking for it and people aren't asking for it > because they probably don't know about it (or why it's good for server > level stuff) http://www.monkeybrains.net/ > > Clearly, some "marketing" is needed if we are to have choices in the > future about hosting. > > It's not linux users in particular though, a lot of people who *make the > decisions* don't even know what linux is, they just hear a lot of hype > about it and figure "everyone else is using linux, so it must be > better". > > I see this all the time with PHP and MySQL, when I suggest postgresql > for some applications, it's "brought to my attention" that postgresql > has "fallen behind" mysql by the business owners who make these > decisions. (and PHP... well.. thats way better.. because it won the > popularity contest) > > These are people who don't know what linux or UNIX or referential > integrity is. They don't see that just because it's "easier" to get > started with linux or mysql, it doesn't make them better tools, it > just makes them more popular tools among the masses. > > When 20 people say mysql and I say postgresql, in the eyes of someone > who really doesn't know.. they'll always choose mysql. > >> So I would love it if FreeBSD continues to improve and involve without >> being influenced by Linux, Windows or Mac. > > I don't mind if freebsd takes the good things from linux and mac, I just > hope the base system never requires an X server and a bazillion gnome > libraries... :-) > > One thing about linux and marketing, linux HAS done a lot of good toward > bringing alternatives to the windows crowd mindshare. > > Jamie > -- > http://www.geniegate.com Custom web programming > Perl * Java * UNIX User Management Solutions > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 00:39:04 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67106106564A for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 00:39:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from personrp@UPMC.EDU) Received: from msxedgnsprd02.gw.upmc.edu (msxedgnsprd02.gw.upmc.edu [128.147.248.49]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE7D8FC1A for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 00:39:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from msxhcsnsprd03.acct.upmchs.net (128.147.28.14) by msxedgnsprd02.gw.upmc.edu (128.147.248.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.234.1; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 19:38:26 -0500 Received: from msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net ([fe80::e138:c1a9:3f92:cf44]) by msxhcsnsprd03.acct.upmchs.net ([fe80::2411:fcdc:e28:2adf%13]) with mapi; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 19:38:29 -0500 From: "Person, Roderick" To: Jamie , "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 19:36:42 -0500 Thread-Topic: FreeBSD Popularity Thread-Index: Acq5mwEmh4q5ZI/1QbCvTQ9fI0S0FAABWzuc Message-ID: <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA9074CDA1@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <9d972bed1003010724g5b64123ap5ff18c408dc0a7e@mail.gmail.com> <20100301114445.GB26935@apollo.podro.com> <9d972bed1003011013w33c09017te962078be7768406@mail.gmail.com> , <20100301192901.GC26935@apollo.podro.com> In-Reply-To: <20100301192901.GC26935@apollo.podro.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Subject: RE: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 00:39:04 -0000 _______________________________________ From: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org [owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org] On Be= half Of Jamie [jamie@geniegate.com] On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 03:50:29PM -0300, Alex Moura wrote: >Try to actually find one, not just the google resuls. There aren't many, >I was lucky in that I found a dedicated host, reasonably priced that'll >run freebsd. (and only older ones.. I'm too chicken to upgrade via >remote) http://www.pair.com/ I use there hobbyist hosting http://www.pairlite.com/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 04:51:36 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69BA106566B for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 04:51:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from royce.williams@gmail.com) Received: from mail-gx0-f222.google.com (mail-gx0-f222.google.com [209.85.217.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A24FF8FC08 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 04:51:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22so1556643gxk.4 for ; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 20:51:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=REQDit2cG152VEJzAhoI9pD7+9v38KhKo6kZ8+cjarc=; b=JnnXTVSQEqOwgyJXCu4FRvGsxaCv+7QXESzUsIZPdR/trtyonM71YRDPFWN2evgDJ5 HLfILjyLjV4M5puMJG3Dso3FK9Ehjz/ldI+kQk2RoWqRZgFk7cHIUgIYnzHdg70p4CR4 4YlxkzZ/7ghlfq5obcYQKEcyuetUIrL4XPNxM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=b6oXKN7cxph+2VOsCwckq7RmxHD3+G3G52Pb09nUNi+Fy/1vVWl3vX5HXSiH9BBf/y O5qcc17Q5oKePH/ssN82GA4rlcRXCh4li7aAdDRf/DafeLjr9YTPNbSwwc/mAy62rJup vdGqus/W7Vsot3HoB66emevVio77493gGSIvo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.29.10 with SMTP id g10mr2540728ybj.129.1267503617072; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 20:20:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA9074CDA1@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <9d972bed1003010724g5b64123ap5ff18c408dc0a7e@mail.gmail.com> <20100301114445.GB26935@apollo.podro.com> <9d972bed1003011013w33c09017te962078be7768406@mail.gmail.com> <20100301192901.GC26935@apollo.podro.com> <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA9074CDA1@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> From: Royce Williams Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 19:19:57 -0900 Message-ID: <9dd082311003012019u23deeca3q1a802acf06a6f839@mail.gmail.com> To: "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 04:51:37 -0000 On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Person, Roderick wrote: > http://www.pair.com/ Second. I like Pair - they've been rock-solid. Royce From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 07:42:54 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE24B106564A for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 07:42:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (gate6.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC688FC13 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 07:42:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from seedling.black-earth.co.uk (seedling.black-earth.co.uk [81.187.76.163]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o227gmvT054072 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 07:42:49 GMT (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Message-ID: <4B8CC178.5010507@infracaninophile.co.uk> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 07:42:48 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman Organization: Infracaninophile User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100216 Thunderbird/3.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <20100228185353.GA4307@apollo.podro.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_ADSP_ALL, SPF_FAIL autolearn=no version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 07:42:55 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02/03/2010 24:02:31, KAYVEN RIESE wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Mar 2010, Eitan Adler wrote: >> >>> Tell people how great freebsd is, not how crappy linux is. Remind them >>> that we're all "unix-like", so you're not loosing anything by selecting >>> freebsd for server stuff, you can still use linux as a workstation. >> >> And you could still use freeBSD a desktop or Linux as a server. > > Forgive me for belaboring the obvious, but meanwhile, but Microsoft > servers are far less indicated.. I'm wondering if anyone feels like > opining on MacOSX's Darwin dirty little secret kernel acting as a server. Well, it would probably work pretty well, but what's the benefit you get from using Darwin like that? Without all the rest of Mac OS X, Darwin doesn't stand out from the crowd in any particularly interesting ways. It might be fun to play with, but for a serious workload I'd go FreeBSD. Cheers, Matthew - -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkuMwXgACgkQ8Mjk52CukIyYjwCglHughjoO4P9bPa/wSbtPCBte tK8AnRcxvf9tDBJxE4XOJxTFoIyifn/Z =bsnk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 2 08:09:07 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFCDB106566B for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 08:09:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jayton.garnett@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f216.google.com (mail-bw0-f216.google.com [209.85.218.216]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4061C8FC16 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2010 08:09:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bwz8 with SMTP id 8so2451014bwz.3 for ; Tue, 02 Mar 2010 00:08:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=2E0I5dPPTt8iLm2E87UUcHgCZAMg4MhT+KG/KYq7ZEU=; b=tcIq4ygs4nZNZIL3wlW7g7DpBVfGDkZgTzvv2EUQemihGB7TW/wcVbe+Ep4g1uMa4d ZOIwMrRVoDN5twYOCB3ooSxSqc2hrvvtg8iC1MoxaL/zJ/cSqsfskCUTzm6oa8ry3uNN 2y+USF5Ec9RPmOZbQ/Ety+GHeq2BohB6eDWFU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Q9MZXCYu31il7nSRJ4yGkkhUDx52aw/KXlMvodS4MRBHXM7JkE2alAMzym/lfj/idb 4c7rKk2dqVknUUtpiAOmIl0/QfBbsctm0K7iVWTKtiUCH6fKB0cgWjqI6M8EPMkXhNam zyfUa/kGbyqnaYy0JlLsKR4kQDGBZW940arvM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.34.17 with SMTP id j17mr4102355bkd.188.1267517338100; Tue, 02 Mar 2010 00:08:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B8CC178.5010507@infracaninophile.co.uk> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <20100228185353.GA4307@apollo.podro.com> <4B8CC178.5010507@infracaninophile.co.uk> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 08:08:57 +0000 Message-ID: From: Jayton Garnett To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 08:09:07 -0000 I'm glad I don't have to pitch *BSD to my work place, because it was already in use when I started =) with only a few Linux boxes, but they've all been phased out now. I'm totally agreed with not waving FreeBSD in people's faces too much - it's the reason I turned my back on Linux and changed to FreeBSD. Linux was meant to be the pot of golf at the end of the rainbow... it was more like a pot of green gooey slush. Fortunately I saw the other rainbow, which lead me to a pot of gold, in the form of FreeBSD. Cheers, Jay From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 3 14:25:25 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 700A8106566C for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2010 14:25:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from solarux@hotmail.com) Received: from bay0-omc3-s2.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s2.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.190.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6478FC0C for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2010 14:25:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BAY113-W44 ([65.54.190.189]) by bay0-omc3-s2.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 3 Mar 2010 06:21:50 -0800 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [67.204.36.159] From: Rick N To: Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 09:21:50 -0500 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2010 14:21:50.0616 (UTC) FILETIME=[DD8E9180:01CABADC] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: RE: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 14:25:25 -0000 > Date: Sun=2C 28 Feb 2010 12:49:23 -0600 > From: falkman@gamozo.org > To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: FreeBSD Popularity >=20 > Hello there FreeBSD people=2C >=20 > Why is it that FreeBSD is so far behind Linux in popularity? The fact=20 > that lots of companies are not very supportive of FreeBSD (ex. NVIDIA=20 > and ATI 64-bit drivers) is really starting to bother me. I guess I would= =20 > like to have a bit of a discussion of what could be improved to increase= =20 > the popularity of FreeBSD=2C as honestly I can do almost everything in=20 > FreeBSD that I can in Linux=2C so why can't FreeBSD thrive as much as=20 > Linux. Is it that it is harder to install/configure? Any opinions/ideas=20 > on this situation? >=20 > -Brandon Falk > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe=2C send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" ________________________________________________ I hate to get sort-of obvious as to one of many reasons why "Free"BSD will= never be popular on the Desktop/Server for the masses=2C=20 but here goes:=20 =20 "BSD was Bill Joy=2C initially=2C" says McKusick. "He did the distributions= and talked about them and pushed them out. This was way back in the mid-70's. He also gave BSD its NFS=2C TCP/IP code= =2C "vi"=2C ... For you younger folk=2C Bill Joy later beame the "Founder" of Sun Microsys= tems. If anyone's not sure what Sun was/is=2C then forget the rest of this=2C and= just stay with Windows. =3B) ...=2C and how much BSD code was in HP/UX=2C as well as=2C ...? =20 All that and even more was way back then. =20 Of course even today=2C we all know what MacOSX's kernel is based on too. =20 The "BSD License" made all of that=2C and more possible. =20 Of all of these corporations=2C and many more not mentioned=2C its easy to= see that they(the corporate powers that be) were NOT promoting us to use FreeBSD "freely"=2C in fact they were/are sel= ling us their own BSD=2C=20 and their hardware=2C... Also=2C any "history of corporate capitalism" will tell you why this is so= =2C in every facet.=20 Obviously=2C "Big Brother" will never want you to use it without paying. This is why Windows=2C MacOSX is the most popular to most people ? THEY do not want "Free"BSD popular=2C because comparatively=2C that would = mean(after you pay for your car)=2C you'd get to drive it for free. -in as much as Ford=2C(who apparently has a patent for a "water engine")= =2C won't/can't let "water" become the "Popular" Fuel for the masses. =20 (Of all the above though=2C Bill Joy's Sun earned the right to do whatever= he wanted.) ---------------------------------- However=2C the commercial afterbirth's produced=2C and sold=2C because of = FreeBSD make it very popular to "them" and us by design. (...hence=2C MacOSX=2C ...) =20 Free/Net/OpenBSD will probably always remain much more "popular" to the r= eal unix-ish coders(software\hardware developers)=2C than the average Joe=2C like u=2C and me. It's afterall their work=2C with a little help from our feedback=2C that k= eeps it goin'. -> But=2C summarily=2C and because BSD is legally=2C and whatever else MOR= E "Free" that Linux=2C it will never be more popular than Linux=2C on the D= esktop/server. :( --------------------------------- In retrospect=2C I admit=2C FreeBSD became more popular to me because I le= arned how to use it first(before the Linux goldrush)=2C and install it=2C s= till enjoying the fruits of those labours'. =20 And yes though=2C what I really cannot understand is=2C -Why the heck did = IBM pick RedFart/GPL*?=2C instead of FreeBSD/BSD Lic. ??? -and that=2C I wo= uld luv to understand.!? cheers. Rick. =20 _________________________________________________________________ Live connected with Messenger on your phone http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9712958= From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 3 23:07:45 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E659B106564A for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2010 23:07:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz (southernuniform.com [66.76.92.18]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 995B68FC0A for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2010 23:07:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.14.3/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o23N7SLf069468; Wed, 3 Mar 2010 17:07:28 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daleco.biz Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ezekiel.daleco.biz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Wf5BpSCbzbHl; Wed, 3 Mar 2010 17:07:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from archangel.daleco.biz (ezekiel.daleco.biz [66.76.92.18]) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o23N7L0X069464; Wed, 3 Mar 2010 17:07:22 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Message-ID: <4B8EEBA9.2030800@daleco.biz> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 17:07:21 -0600 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090929) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick N References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 23:07:46 -0000 Rick N wrote: > > -> But, summarily, and because BSD is legally, > and whatever else MORE "Free" that Linux, it will > never be more popular than Linux, on the Desktop/server. Hmm, need to check for facts, but I think the point is made. Given a choice at a restaurant of water for free, or Iced Tea/"Soda Pop" (or w/e they call it in your neck o'the woods) for a nickel, most people would choose the latter despite the cost and the fact that water's really better for them. KDK From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 01:10:00 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4157B106564A for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 01:10:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) Received: from iron3-mailrl.sfsu.edu (iron3-mailrl.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.122]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C9F78FC13 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 01:09:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Inbound-SFSU: False X-onepass: IPPSC X-From-SFSU: True X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEADY6kUuC1B9b/2dsb2JhbACbS3OpCAEJBYRyiFmCaYIOBIMXgSKBXYUj Received: from edg04.sfsu.edu ([130.212.31.91]) by iron3.sfsu.edu with ESMTP; 05 Mar 2010 17:09:59 -0800 Received: from EHB04.ad.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.28) by edg04.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.0.689.0; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 17:09:12 -0800 Received: from smtp01.sfsu.edu (130.212.10.100) by ehb.ad.sfsu.edu (130.212.31.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.0.689.0; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 17:09:59 -0800 Received: from libra.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.238]) by mail05a.sfsu.edu (Lotus Domino Release 7.0.4HF59) with ESMTP id 2010030517095841-700 ; Fri, 5 Mar 2010 17:09:58 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 17:09:58 -0800 From: KAYVEN RIESE To: Kevin Kinsey In-Reply-To: <4B8EEBA9.2030800@daleco.biz> Message-ID: References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <4B8EEBA9.2030800@daleco.biz> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on MAIL05a/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.4HF59 | August 11, 2009) at 03/05/2010 17:09:58, Serialize by Router on SMTP01/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.4|March 23, 2009) at 03/05/2010 17:09:58, Serialize complete at 03/05/2010 17:09:58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; format=flowed Cc: Rick N , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 01:10:00 -0000 On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Kevin Kinsey wrote: > Rick N wrote: >> >> -> But, summarily, and because BSD is legally, >> and whatever else MORE "Free" that Linux, it will >> never be more popular than Linux, on the Desktop/server. > > > Hmm, need to check for facts, but I think the point > is made. Given a choice at a restaurant of water for > free, or Iced Tea/"Soda Pop" (or w/e they call it in > your neck o'the woods) for a nickel, most people would > choose the latter despite the cost and the fact that > water's really better for them. Umm.. Really? Why is Avion, Arrowhead.. do I need to name any more names..?.. in business then? > > KDK > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 09:10:16 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA466106577E for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 09:10:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sfourman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pw0-f54.google.com (mail-pw0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27528FC12 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 09:10:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pwj1 with SMTP id 1so3194213pwj.13 for ; Sat, 06 Mar 2010 01:10:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=JlDZD49zdQrpZWKEOchpksDnfc4ZvOKnf07pJBtQayU=; b=EkVmUmSaCD2aUfqZ0wnF0JHDDr97fVmcrVP6nldLqDJwzSpoIr0sx9DQ8AebsiXXK9 fwZovR8BdjOmc2bjkL0/9TD2J059UACW8e9zZUeHxzV01c/l2I2aQk4LI81bf6juIk0Y pmgPYMb79vBIs2qiA4vartRDq+hW1nA/cxaYk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=EMyHUkdWlsAvDd3//8/Nh7PAgjVJXcqNIcV3QIkN1N6l84hkJgKHqFe/tK0nG4LqmV BZeXU7xFweg90Irf4FaAuvC8GpUX26AYZ50/mULgVRMo/r2FOJZ3HXiUaqblVOqbozqU qKrm4xGHfHIVfPPlMsJM8E5akKff676lMnnP0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.26.38 with SMTP id d38mr1386435wfj.218.1267865087860; Sat, 06 Mar 2010 00:44:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100301053514.GA5440@orange.esperance-linux.co.uk> References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <20100228201322.GA82783@rwxrwxrwx.net> <20100301053514.GA5440@orange.esperance-linux.co.uk> Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 02:44:47 -0600 Message-ID: <11167f521003060044n798a2b3dj23f13f9b9ba5cdbb@mail.gmail.com> From: "Sam Fourman Jr." To: Frank Shute , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, falkman@gamozo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 09:10:16 -0000 > To be honest, I think the licence puts off most of the commercial > entities. Which is a *good* thing. > Explain your point on this? BSD is supposed to be commercial friendly. Sam Fourman Jr. Fourman Networks From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 12:26:53 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D536A106566C for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 12:26:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from frank@shute.org.uk) Received: from atmail-8.bnguk.net (atmail-8.bnguk.net [80.74.253.5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D068FC08 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 12:26:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from 77-44-105-82.xdsl.murphx.net ([77.44.105.82] helo=orange.esperance-linux.co.uk) by atmail-8.bnguk.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nnt5n-0001wj-Ib; Sat, 06 Mar 2010 12:26:51 +0000 Received: by orange.esperance-linux.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2004D4AC20; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 12:26:51 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 12:26:51 +0000 From: Frank Shute To: "Sam Fourman Jr." Message-ID: <20100306122651.GA46491@orange.esperance-linux.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: "Sam Fourman Jr." , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, falkman@gamozo.org References: <4B8ABAB3.1060003@gamozo.org> <20100228201322.GA82783@rwxrwxrwx.net> <20100301053514.GA5440@orange.esperance-linux.co.uk> <11167f521003060044n798a2b3dj23f13f9b9ba5cdbb@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <11167f521003060044n798a2b3dj23f13f9b9ba5cdbb@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Face: *}~{PHnDTzvXPe'wl_-f%!@+r5; VLhb':*DsX%wEOPg\fDrXWQJf|2\,92"DdS%63t*BHDyQ|OWo@Gfjcd72eaN!4%NE{0]p)ihQ1MyFNtWL X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 8.0-RELEASE-p2 amd64 X-Organisation: 'shute.org.uk' Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, falkman@gamozo.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Popularity X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Shute List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 12:26:53 -0000 On Sat, Mar 06, 2010 at 02:44:47AM -0600, Sam Fourman Jr. wrote: > > > To be honest, I think the licence puts off most of the commercial > > entities. Which is a *good* thing. > > > > Explain your point on this? BSD is supposed to be commercial friendly. > > Sam Fourman Jr. I saw Linux go from a sort of hobbiest system to what it is now, where most of the patches come from RedHat, IBM and Novell. These patches are focussed on whatever those big companies are focussed on ATM which doesn't necessarily coincide with what the user base wants. For instance, who cares that Linux is patched to run on IBM Z-series? IBM. Not me. So you get a lot of cruft in the kernel which has nothing to do with the desires of the user base but it's what a PHB at IBM wants. Yes, there are companies whom use and support FreeBSD but their say on FreeBSD development is limited and usually welcome. I'm thinking of Juniper. My belief is that the FreeBSD license puts off the big commercial players because it's written in clear English and can be written on half a page of A4. This puts the ball in the PHB's court unlike the GPL's reams of legalese which is punted along to the legal department. i.e the PHB can pass the buck and hence GPL software is used. That's just a guess. I can't think why a license, that allows more freedom than an obtuse license that is dependent on the uncertain interpretation of a judge, is used. Regards, -- Frank Contact info: http://www.shute.org.uk/misc/contact.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 22:20:13 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C5A1065674 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 22:20:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.netplex.net (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B4658FC19 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 22:20:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sea.ntplx.net (sea.ntplx.net [204.213.176.11]) by mail.netplex.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id o26MA71X026583 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2010 17:10:07 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.netplex.net) X-Greylist: Message whitelisted by DRAC access database, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.10]); Sat, 06 Mar 2010 17:10:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 17:10:07 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Eischen X-X-Sender: eischen@sea.ntplx.net To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Subject: FreeBSD mentioned in Panasonic 2010 G20 review X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Daniel Eischen List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 22:20:14 -0000 See about 1/4 of the way down, the section on USB HDD recording. http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1267447473 If true, kinda neat. -- DE