From owner-freebsd-sysinstall@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 21 17:33:30 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D5C61065672 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:33:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bruce@cran.org.uk) Received: from muon.cran.org.uk (muon.cran.org.uk [204.109.60.94]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E88518FC12 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:33:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from core.draftnet (87-194-158-129.bethere.co.uk [87.194.158.129]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by muon.cran.org.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 77C305D19 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:16:21 +0000 (UTC) From: Bruce Cran To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 18:16:19 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.3 (FreeBSD/9.0-CURRENT; KDE/4.4.4; amd64; ; ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201006211816.19091.bruce@cran.org.uk> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:52:25 +0000 Subject: Install media terminology X-BeenThere: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Sysinstall Work List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:33:30 -0000 A couple of days ago I got the message "Couldn't clone install floppy to the root filesystem". That got me thinking: since we don't support install floppies any more, should we change the wording to "image", since I presume it's cloning a filesystem image to the root partition. Likewise, should we continue to mention CD/DVD, and in the future have CD/DVD/Blu-ray, or should we simplify it to "media", or just say "CD"? I know it's really trivial but the less verbose the wording the more people are likely to actually read it I'd guess! -- Bruce Cran From owner-freebsd-sysinstall@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 22 01:31:49 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A23106564A for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 01:31:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sektie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF51F8FC15 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 01:31:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vws1 with SMTP id 1so2025739vws.13 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 18:31:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Q81zrG9oPATtFf/r+rXjYXlxnUHWYsWBGO8giQTcYrw=; b=rQZI63X0WSaXYHzGYOYp1brgeHgCN7MqT+MxOKBvlbYSifAeKElFw8DFWjFmCDX/4A /GbbO5drPF8LDMU7eYyUpvx/e39Asd1hhR1LEp4FRk5L2JAYcekke8XMP1r6ZsGkciG4 P+JJ1mmNPnzU9ab8PHEPtYAFLOf5cMlaqJ+y4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; b=s8Mrb6rw9HdtjKDzF1KC5xSA0BZRypODPWZHTkDn3ERTMUnWuwM06Vu/vn+ztweJUg EUhxVsHVo71DLA8HoVtw10b+aeXPsPVl8+/3dFV/yxNm9xUyFqZTi1UphX3EfdyygUGe 5O8nMdqUvd9HImVYF4BOiLy8upyMsIUCjHBrg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.48.17 with SMTP id p17mr2692130vcf.99.1277168889373; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 18:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Sender: sektie@gmail.com Received: by 10.220.71.13 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 18:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 18:08:09 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: NlnPMFT-FpgPBR3xyzDJMuyTm-A Message-ID: From: Randi Harper To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 05:59:11 +0000 Subject: heads up - we're going WARNS=3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Sysinstall Work List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 01:31:49 -0000 Making a huge commit after make universe finishes providing all goes well. Details at http://deviant.freebsdgirl.com/~randi/warns3.diff -- randi From owner-freebsd-sysinstall@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 22 02:14:28 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F083E106566B for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 02:14:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sektie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA33A8FC08 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 02:14:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vws1 with SMTP id 1so2077654vws.13 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:14:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=SJ0boUT9uaOjOBFxOY+P4kNOGKTR5zXEopsiu2zvQa0=; b=vR5Ab4q+JGXFmEBPRK8d3NOInmzPyTi/VZ9kQmVqo5/OOZfPHSZZBCOmchbNWcuA1g qnvnaFWj+GqwIUE4EgjTuPsFZ59eT5uCkEnbKfCaqKY7bHz2tf6ZSAGDF0D8AQOP2X4s Af9stce2yxzKqaNATf3d8YlA+igYAYEeQMDEI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; b=vP7U4w4gOLa4FlpIvYnVJHbYG5Nxr74J3o66CbDI8SF3CVoNcrO47B9VTHXVWxVD2b zYRjEQ+2oBbwgMncKakFl8S/5JglquNWyxehno4kyk2Uqcb3qqYhr+rF4dren6161Ar7 GM0evvwVbH38QZEoZW1TyBGvYACjFb/AaqZmA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.80.96 with SMTP id s32mr2718447vck.57.1277172868080; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Sender: sektie@gmail.com Received: by 10.220.71.13 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:14:28 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: dNLhADbTzG9pPkMT3z-XeXrUCX4 Message-ID: From: Randi Harper To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 05:59:28 +0000 Subject: removing the junk. X-BeenThere: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Sysinstall Work List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 02:14:29 -0000 Here's a list of the things I'd like to see go away. I plan on removing them unless someone objects. Configure -> Packages - There are several problems with this. - sysinstall is obviously not meant to work with a ports tree as big as what we've got. - If we're going to offer the option to install a ports tree, we shouldn't be using one that will just be overwritten should portsnap be used. - We should encourage users to use portsnap instead. We're being blocked on this because something about portsnap and release bits - I'm not sure. But I need to bug cperciva@. Networking - anyone that knows how to use these services won't be using sysinstall to set them up. AMD/AMD flags Anon FTP inetd NFS client NFS server - iirc, this is broken anyways. PC-NFSD rpcbind rpc.statd rpc.lockd routed rwhod TCP Extensions - although to be fair, I don't know what these are. I just know that I've never seen them enabled in sysinstall. Security NFS port - Unnecessary if we're getting rid of NFS server, makes no sense to have this. Might as well ditch the menu altogether, as that only leaves securelevel. Put that in the Configure menu instead. Startup LPD - Requires some manner of configuration outside of sysinstall anyways. HTML Docs - If you know how to use a text browser, you know how to install freebsd. Documentation is still available in other formats. Docs HTML Docs - We like these so much, we list them twice! Fixit Floppy - broken as of 8, fixit floppies are now too big. Upgrade - I know someone is going to argue with me on this. Probably a lot of people, in fact, if it gets removed. But sysinstall's upgrade is a hack, it's partially broken, and it needs to go away. Instead, I propose we replace this functionality with a dialog box instructing the user to use freebsd-update. -- randi From owner-freebsd-sysinstall@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 22 07:33:14 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043C61065675; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 07:33:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bruce@cran.org.uk) Received: from muon.cran.org.uk (muon.cran.org.uk [204.109.60.94]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA58F8FC22; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 07:33:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from core.draftnet (87-194-158-129.bethere.co.uk [87.194.158.129]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by muon.cran.org.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 210E65D19; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 07:33:13 +0000 (UTC) From: Bruce Cran To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:33:07 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.3 (FreeBSD/9.0-CURRENT; KDE/4.4.4; amd64; ; ) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201006220833.07071.bruce@cran.org.uk> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:09:03 +0000 Cc: Subject: Re: removing the junk. X-BeenThere: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Sysinstall Work List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 07:33:14 -0000 On Tuesday 22 June 2010 03:14:28 Randi Harper wrote: > Configure -> > Packages - There are several problems with this. > - sysinstall is obviously not meant to work with a ports tree as > big as what we've got. > - If we're going to offer the option to install a ports tree, we > shouldn't be using one that will just be overwritten should portsnap > be used. > - We should encourage users to use portsnap instead. We're being > blocked on this because something about portsnap and release bits - > I'm not sure. But I need to bug cperciva@. But packages != ports. I don't think we can require everyone to build applications from source, despite the problems with packages. -- Bruce From owner-freebsd-sysinstall@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 22 15:47:32 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD9C6106564A; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 15:47:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dteske@vicor.com) Received: from postoffice.vicor.com (postoffice.vicor.com [69.26.56.53]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C9F8FC18; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 15:47:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [208.206.78.30] (port=48215 helo=dt.vicor.com) by postoffice.vicor.com with esmtpsa (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OR5h3-0004Oy-KY; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:47:21 -0700 From: Devin Teske To: Randi Harper In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Vicor, Inc Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:47:21 -0700 Message-Id: <1277221641.9209.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-41.el4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scan-Signature: fd529ff8f88f7fb3b8f43cdbd4210b69 X-Scan-Host: postoffice.vicor.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 15:52:34 +0000 Cc: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Subject: Re: removing the junk. X-BeenThere: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Sysinstall Work List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 15:47:32 -0000 On Mon, 2010-06-21 at 19:14 -0700, Randi Harper wrote: > Networking - anyone that knows how to use these services won't be > using sysinstall to set them up. > AMD/AMD flags > Anon FTP > inetd > NFS client Referring to performing installs over NFS? We do this multiple times a day (many thousands of times-over a year, year-after-year). Please-oh-please don't remove ability to install via NFS. -- Cheers, Devin Teske -> CONTACT INFORMATION <- Business Solutions Consultant II FIS - fisglobal.com 510-735-5650 Mobile 510-621-2038 Office 510-621-2020 Office Fax 909-477-4578 Home/Fax devin.teske@fisglobal.com -> LEGAL DISCLAIMER <- This message contains confidential and proprietary information of the sender, and is intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any use, distribution, copying or disclosure by any other person is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the e-mail sender immediately, and delete the original message without making a copy. -> END TRANSMISSION <- From owner-freebsd-sysinstall@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 22 16:11:16 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04772106567A; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:11:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dteske@vicor.com) Received: from postoffice.vicor.com (postoffice.vicor.com [69.26.56.53]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23138FC16; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:11:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [208.206.78.30] (port=48316 helo=dt.vicor.com) by postoffice.vicor.com with esmtpsa (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OR642-0004k2-9w; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 09:11:06 -0700 From: Devin Teske To: Randi Harper In-Reply-To: <1277221641.9209.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1277221641.9209.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Vicor, Inc Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 09:11:06 -0700 Message-Id: <1277223066.9209.94.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-41.el4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scan-Signature: fbf0b9ecee688985b00657278a07ea31 X-Scan-Host: postoffice.vicor.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:18:24 +0000 Cc: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Subject: Re: removing the junk. X-BeenThere: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Sysinstall Work List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:11:16 -0000 On Tue, 2010-06-22 at 08:47 -0700, Devin Teske wrote: > On Mon, 2010-06-21 at 19:14 -0700, Randi Harper wrote: > > Networking - anyone that knows how to use these services won't be > > using sysinstall to set them up. > > AMD/AMD flags > > Anon FTP > > inetd > > NFS client > > Referring to performing installs over NFS? We do this multiple times a > day (many thousands of times-over a year, year-after-year). > > Please-oh-please don't remove ability to install via NFS. Though, I realize that perhaps we're talking about the cadre of questions that comes after the standard install. You may be right that anyone whom knows how to use said services won't be using sysinstall to set them up... ... but what about the people that don't know how to use said services whom are trying out FreeBSD for the first time? I can conceptualize some of my friends whom may know Linux, or even other BSDs, but are not familiar with the way that FreeBSD works -- speaking specifically to the localization of settings and toggle-bits in /etc/rc.conf (and *.local -- and now in /etc/conf.d too). It is occasionally rather nice to be able to -- when showing a competent engineer around FreeBSD -- fire up sysinstall and point out all the things that FreeBSD knows how to do (by way of all the things you can set up). >From a marketing stand-point, the cadre of options that come after the standard install also serve a purpose to "advertise" (simply by visibility) to the user all the things that FreeBSD can do "out of the box". Last, if they really wanted to not be bothered with a list of questions, perhaps they ought to have not chosen to be bothered (if I recall correctly, there's a single question which allows you to opt-out of the cadre of questions). There's also an express and custom install path for people that really know what they are doing. I'll bite that the questions are a bit cumbersome though... PLUS... It's annoying as all-hell that I can't just (a) jump to the option that interests me and (b) skip [immediately] options that I don't care about. So, if the prevailing logic is... "let's keep the ability to configure these things through sysinstall purely because it's nice to have from a marketing and/or advertising stand-point for new users that may need assistance in getting required services up and running in a limited fashion" ...then the next natural jump in logic is... "rather than barrage the user with question-after-question, simply list all the services that can be setup and let the user choose which ones interest him-or-her ... if none are of interest, they have a "cancel" option which gets them out of the post-install configuration options." This indeed sounds like it would be a very minor change. After the install is complete, I think we already ask them if they would like to perform some post-installation configuration of services... ...I feel if they opt-into configuring additional services, that they should then be dumped into a menu where they can bee-line straight to the guy that they want. Naturally, gurus won't care to use these "simplified" configurators (ala sysinstall) and would rather opt to set things up manually, but it is arguable that those people are already hard-set on staying with FreeBSD (they know the system afterall), while the configurators made available via sysinstall are designed first-and-foremost to entice and aid the users whom are perhaps simply just trying FreeBSD (and therefore are far more likely to be put-off if they can't figure out how to do something). -- Cheers, Devin Teske -> CONTACT INFORMATION <- Business Solutions Consultant II FIS - fisglobal.com 510-735-5650 Mobile 510-621-2038 Office 510-621-2020 Office Fax 909-477-4578 Home/Fax devin.teske@fisglobal.com -> LEGAL DISCLAIMER <- This message contains confidential and proprietary information of the sender, and is intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any use, distribution, copying or disclosure by any other person is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the e-mail sender immediately, and delete the original message without making a copy. -> END TRANSMISSION <- From owner-freebsd-sysinstall@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 22 16:25:04 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD059106566B; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:25:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bruce@cran.org.uk) Received: from muon.cran.org.uk (muon.cran.org.uk [204.109.60.94]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 394A58FC1A; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:25:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from unknown (87-194-158-129.bethere.co.uk [87.194.158.129]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by muon.cran.org.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 41DC85D19; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:25:03 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:24:29 +0100 From: Bruce Cran To: Devin Teske Message-ID: <20100622172429.00000411@unknown> In-Reply-To: <1277221641.9209.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1277221641.9209.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.4cvs1 (GTK+ 2.16.0; i586-pc-mingw32msvc) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:34:21 +0000 Cc: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Subject: Re: removing the junk. X-BeenThere: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Sysinstall Work List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:25:04 -0000 On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:47:21 -0700 Devin Teske wrote: > Please-oh-please don't remove ability to install via NFS. No, I think it's just referring to the post-install setup of a machine as an NFS client. We're just discussing sysinstall on IRC at the moment and have come up with the idea of asking what role the machine will be and choosing appropriate settings. So, for example: Default layout: 1GB / 2x RAM swap up to 2GB RAM, and then 1x RAM 1GB /tmp 4GB /var [rest of drive] /usr Desktop: Default layout Database server: Allocate 16GB to /usr and leave the rest for /var Ask if the user wants to install MySQL or Postgresql (?) NFS server: Same layout as for Desktop but enable NFS. Or should we give 16GB to /usr and leave the rest unallocated? I don't know enough about how NFS servers are setup. We *could* also choose appropriate packages similar to what Debian does, but that's probably a step too far for FreeBSD. -- Bruce From owner-freebsd-sysinstall@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 22 16:28:32 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCDD51065679 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:28:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sektie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD5F8FC14 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:28:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14so147491vws.13 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 09:28:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mGjJdcT3PFWgjycjXXrbbaa4PhF8RaaJsh9YrICxH6A=; b=P+a0mVD4N5kIG3lc9O8iqmuMbEH5lp2uPgLja+C08xnli0OC7+RGw9BLzwy9iBJueo dEf80Bew+CVlgTCNWnaIxBZdoaQXJ+isn1VvppRNTc8C4N3sU16JCMvTNYcLIrzzAmnC Y4XqkzqjlJtWGaxsgg96uzLxwyHEDdLeiFW50= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=QyilIuB8JlkhSwcNvnGqdLLxfnb3+SbdvYyRxLyEqhnSDQb4e6QcsF4egMoANtCoQC ky0932h1Jv0o+ogAJ0NH+8neNH+SaFHUDlvxngMlHGnqa8rCwqro0xvr6vAusr3zUSYF xIcrJfnM/CqSmTmG7o5uZsB7ksB+MqKWmGQvE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.102.66 with SMTP id f2mr4208576qao.166.1277222025067; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Sender: sektie@gmail.com Received: by 10.220.71.13 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:53:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1277221641.9209.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1277221641.9209.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:53:44 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: vIzl_IHn0D5drQCUyfdX9viBHko Message-ID: From: Randi Harper To: Devin Teske Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:56:20 +0000 Cc: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Subject: Re: removing the junk. X-BeenThere: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Sysinstall Work List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:28:32 -0000 Er, no. Clearly installing via NFS is not going away. This was in reference to sysinstall menu options. -- randi On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Devin Teske wrote: > On Mon, 2010-06-21 at 19:14 -0700, Randi Harper wrote: >> =A0 Networking - anyone that knows how to use these services won't be >> using sysinstall to set them up. >> =A0 =A0 =A0AMD/AMD flags >> =A0 =A0 =A0Anon FTP >> =A0 =A0 =A0inetd >> =A0 =A0 =A0NFS client > > Referring to performing installs over NFS? We do this multiple times a > day (many thousands of times-over a year, year-after-year). > > Please-oh-please don't remove ability to install via NFS. > -- > Cheers, > Devin Teske > > -> CONTACT INFORMATION <- > Business Solutions Consultant II > FIS - fisglobal.com > 510-735-5650 Mobile > 510-621-2038 Office > 510-621-2020 Office Fax > 909-477-4578 Home/Fax > devin.teske@fisglobal.com > > -> LEGAL DISCLAIMER <- > This message =A0contains confidential =A0and proprietary =A0information > of the sender, =A0and is intended only for the person(s) to whom it > is addressed. Any use, distribution, copying or disclosure by any > other person =A0is strictly prohibited. =A0If you have =A0received this > message in error, =A0please notify =A0the e-mail sender =A0immediately, > and delete the original message without making a copy. > > -> END TRANSMISSION <- > > From owner-freebsd-sysinstall@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 22 16:37:02 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAFBB1065675; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:37:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bruce@cran.org.uk) Received: from muon.cran.org.uk (muon.cran.org.uk [204.109.60.94]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D9B18FC17; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:37:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from unknown (87-194-158-129.bethere.co.uk [87.194.158.129]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by muon.cran.org.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B668B60D2; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:37:01 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:36:21 +0100 From: Bruce Cran To: Devin Teske Message-ID: <20100622173621.000044a4@unknown> In-Reply-To: <1277223066.9209.94.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1277221641.9209.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1277223066.9209.94.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.4cvs1 (GTK+ 2.16.0; i586-pc-mingw32msvc) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:56:43 +0000 Cc: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Subject: Re: removing the junk. X-BeenThere: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Sysinstall Work List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:37:02 -0000 On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 09:11:06 -0700 Devin Teske wrote: > ... but what about the people that don't know how to use said services > whom are trying out FreeBSD for the first time? There is a place for configuration UIs. Just a couple of days ago I needed to share a directory with my Windows 7 laptop. I found that KDE has very complete support for samba (and NFS) which turned a half-hour of reading about obscure Windows protocols into a few minutes of clicking on the right settings. It'll horrify traditionalists, but I was very grateful to have that available. > I can conceptualize some of my friends whom may know Linux, or even > other BSDs, but are not familiar with the way that FreeBSD works -- > speaking specifically to the localization of settings and toggle-bits > in /etc/rc.conf (and *.local -- and now in /etc/conf.d too). The traditional Unix people will say "they should learn" and that we don't want to encourage the sort of people to FreeBSD who won't. However, I think having a UI for some stuff is nice, though we need to be careful that it doesn't turn into a full sysadmin tool, since then people will start hating how it doesn't edit rc.conf (it only appends), and it'll be something like YaST that hides the real functionality and just annoys people with its limitations. We should make sure that we highlight the rc.conf manual pages etc. It's easy to forget that new users may not realise there's this whole load of system configuration documentation already installed on their machine. > It is occasionally rather nice to be able to -- when showing a > competent engineer around FreeBSD -- fire up sysinstall and point out > all the things that FreeBSD knows how to do (by way of all the things > you can set up). The TCP extensions are a good example of that - I didn't realise they existed until I saw the options in sysinstall. -- Bruce From owner-freebsd-sysinstall@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 22 17:02:49 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13CD0106567A; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:02:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bruce@cran.org.uk) Received: from muon.cran.org.uk (muon.cran.org.uk [204.109.60.94]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2518FC1A; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:02:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from unknown (87-194-158-129.bethere.co.uk [87.194.158.129]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by muon.cran.org.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 414F15D19; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:02:46 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 18:01:52 +0100 From: Bruce Cran To: Bruce Cran Message-ID: <20100622180152.00004033@unknown> In-Reply-To: <20100622172429.00000411@unknown> References: <1277221641.9209.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20100622172429.00000411@unknown> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.4cvs1 (GTK+ 2.16.0; i586-pc-mingw32msvc) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:08:40 +0000 Cc: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Subject: Re: removing the junk. X-BeenThere: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Sysinstall Work List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:02:49 -0000 On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:24:29 +0100 Bruce Cran wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:47:21 -0700 > Devin Teske wrote: > > > Please-oh-please don't remove ability to install via NFS. > > No, I think it's just referring to the post-install setup of a machine > as an NFS client. We're just discussing sysinstall on IRC at the > moment and have come up with the idea of asking what role the machine > will be and choosing appropriate settings. So, for example: > > Default layout: > > 1GB / > 2x RAM swap up to 2GB RAM, and then 1x RAM > 1GB /tmp > 4GB /var > [rest of drive] /usr > > Desktop: > > Default layout > > Database server: > > Allocate 16GB to /usr and leave the rest for /var > Ask if the user wants to install MySQL or Postgresql (?) > > NFS server: > > Same layout as for Desktop but enable NFS. Or should we give 16GB > to /usr and leave the rest unallocated? I don't know enough about how > NFS servers are setup. > > We *could* also choose appropriate packages similar to what Debian > does, but that's probably a step too far for FreeBSD. > Just to clarify, I've had some more feedback. A server should have: 1GB / 1GB /tmp 40% /var rest to /usr And a database server should have 50-60% allocated to /var, and the rest for /usr - and no hard cap on the size of it because by default /home will live there too. Also, on 32-bit architectures swap should probably take up any address space not used by RAM (i.e. with 512MB RAM give 3.5GB swap, 2GB RAM and 2GB swap etc.) while on 64-bit platforms we could just allocate the same amount for swap as there is RAM unless the machine has 1GB or less in which case we allocate twice the maount of swap as the machine has RAM. -- Bruce From owner-freebsd-sysinstall@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 22 17:33:17 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB2321065672; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:33:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dteske@vicor.com) Received: from postoffice.vicor.com (postoffice.vicor.com [69.26.56.53]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931E48FC0A; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:33:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [208.206.78.30] (port=48502 helo=dt.vicor.com) by postoffice.vicor.com with esmtpsa (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OR7LO-0005xF-RK; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:33:06 -0700 From: Devin Teske To: Bruce Cran In-Reply-To: <20100622173621.000044a4@unknown> References: <1277221641.9209.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1277223066.9209.94.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20100622173621.000044a4@unknown> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Vicor, Inc Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:33:06 -0700 Message-Id: <1277227986.9209.119.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-41.el4) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scan-Signature: 7e3de7e3382d5c42a9a7cfa0a3636125 X-Scan-Host: postoffice.vicor.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:37:27 +0000 Cc: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Subject: Re: removing the junk. X-BeenThere: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Sysinstall Work List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:33:17 -0000 On Tue, 2010-06-22 at 17:36 +0100, Bruce Cran wrote: > The traditional Unix people will say "they should learn" and that we > don't want to encourage the sort of people to FreeBSD who won't. Agreed... > However, I think having a UI for some stuff is nice, though we need to > be careful that it doesn't turn into a full sysadmin tool, since then > people will start hating how it doesn't edit rc.conf (it only appends), > and it'll be something like YaST that hides the real functionality and > just annoys people with its limitations. We should make sure that we > highlight the rc.conf manual pages etc. It's easy to forget that new > users may not realise there's this whole load of system configuration > documentation already installed on their machine. Doubly-agreed... In postulating paths that we can take: a. Remove these options Pro: sysinstall becomes cleaner (??) Con: One less place that this feature can be configured b. Alter the way these options are presented Pro: sysinstall becomes cleaner Con: Engendered professionals have to learn a new interface (though, arguably, engendered professionals either perform the action manually or are perfectly willing to learn as they've already decided to stay with FreeBSD. I'd take the latter over the former (despite the fact that I don't use sysinstall to configure any services). I whole-heartedly agree that we should foster an heir of learning in both the way that the configuration options are presented and the way that configuration is performed. Just some food for thought: - Configuration options should use language similar (if not exactly the same) to that which is familiar to professionals whom manually configure the very same options. For example, in configuring the NFS server use language such as 'nfs_server_flags' -- rc.conf setting -- rather than something which may later-confuse such as "NFS Daemon Parameters" (which may be sensible at a high-level discussion but to foster familiarity with the underlying actions associated with configuration, the former is better than the latter. - Pressing F1 should provide a "full-disclosure" type detail about the configuration, how values are "committed" -- e.g., "options set here are translated into flags which are saved in the `nfs_server_flags' variable in the file `/etc/rc.conf'". - Display in header/footer (say, on the main configurator page for some feature) a nice high-level man-page string (id este, "NFSD(8)") so the user -- assuming they know what said string means -- knows where to go for more info. - Display some caption alerting the user when there is F1-text available to be viewed (e.g., "Press F1 for more info"). - Have some semi-verbose progress-output. For example, while settings are being applied, perhaps have a modal dialog (which requires no action) simply pop-up to say "doing xyz" where 'xyz' should be some indicator to bang the user over the head (for example, if the thing that they are using sysinstall for is really simple, ... like setting the timezone ... the dialog could say "linking /etc/localtime to /usr/share/zoneinfo/America/Los_Angeles". The dialog should be visible for some minimum amount of time (such as 2-3 seconds). If the user uses sysinstall to do this configuration enough, they should repeatedly see that message and eventually say to themselves "hey, maybe I could do that by hand!" (which of course, emphasizes the need to have the messages elate precisely what is being done). - Lastly, some generic log-file with detailed info could be invented to subsequently "teach" users how to do things manually by-way-of precise logging. All we'd have to do is bang them over the head with the location to the logfile after the configurator is done applying their desired settings ("A detailed log of recent changes has been appended-to and can be viewed at `/var/log/sysinstall.log'). Naturally, the code ought to check that we're able to save a log, just keep in mind that sysinstall can and is used from the installed/booted system. -- Cheers, Devin Teske -> CONTACT INFORMATION <- Business Solutions Consultant II FIS - fisglobal.com 510-735-5650 Mobile 510-621-2038 Office 510-621-2020 Office Fax 909-477-4578 Home/Fax devin.teske@fisglobal.com -> LEGAL DISCLAIMER <- This message contains confidential and proprietary information of the sender, and is intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any use, distribution, copying or disclosure by any other person is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the e-mail sender immediately, and delete the original message without making a copy. -> END TRANSMISSION <- From owner-freebsd-sysinstall@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 26 22:50:16 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5556106566C for ; Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:50:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from BearPerson@gmx.net) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 205228FC1D for ; Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:50:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 26 Jun 2010 22:23:34 -0000 Received: from port-92-204-43-35.dynamic.qsc.de (EHLO [192.168.0.130]) [92.204.43.35] by mail.gmx.net (mp025) with SMTP; 27 Jun 2010 00:23:34 +0200 X-Authenticated: #20254835 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/+uztKfRP+O3/b8CTHQej0XxmBlEKMbwvBp0ZicX fhrfDu+zTh8LU0 From: Karsten Behrmann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 00:23:34 +0200 Message-Id: <3B0E67D1-95E7-421C-A506-744C86BC1E6C@gmx.net> To: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 23:51:09 +0000 Subject: Some design suggestions X-BeenThere: freebsd-sysinstall@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Sysinstall Work List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:50:16 -0000 Hey all, I pondered a bit about what code problems make sysinstall code hard to read/maintain, and ended up with the following suggestions: [TL;DR: Sysinstall is old and grown, and we should make some adjustments to modules/headers/functions to fit the bigger size] ----- Module API ----- [TL;DR: Use consistent names and prototypes for all public functions that do the same type of thing] As far as I'm aware, there are only a handful of abstract operations that sysinstall needs to perform on each "module" (disk, networking, distribution set, that kind of thing): * configure - Bring up a GUI to let the user choose how to set stuff up * commit - Actually perform configured changes (e.g. write a conf file) * reset - Return configuration to unset/defaults * setup [optional] - bring up inside install environment (e.g. network) * teardown [optional, probably implied by reset] - undo setup I suggest we try and be consistent in naming and typing the functions that do these things, so that functions calling these can be obvious and regular. Maybe configFoo, commitFoo, resetFoo, setupFoo, teardownFoo? I suggest having each typed as int configFoo(void) where appropriate, with the following return codes: * 0 - success * 1 - unspecified error (to catch returns of a && b) * 2 - user initiated abort (by pressing cancel or something) * 3 - operation failed (no disk found, I/O error, ...) The idea is that sometimes we may want to behave differently when the user cancelled (e.g. not retry). For simplicity, we should try to use the same return code convention in module-internal code, when appropriate. Note that I do not include a dialogMenuItem* in the prototype, which brings us to... ----- avoid libdialog in API ----- [TL;DR: libdialog return codes suck. Don't use them. Don't use libdialog arguments unnecessarily either] Making things like diskPartitionEditor() (essentially configPartitions) usable directly as a menu function was useful in the past, as it meant less code to write to add new dialogs. However, I do not really want to worry about libdialog API when I'm working on specific sysinstall code. I really don't like picking my arguments out of self->aux (self being the dialogMenuItem* we get as argument now), whoever calls me ought to do that. And I do not like DITEM_FAILURE as a bool - we have too many places where we forget to slap DITEM_STATUS() on a return code before we compare it with DITEM_SUCCESS/FAILURE. This does mean we need more boilerplate code in some places, but I think in a project this size, some boilerplate is acceptable, and judicious use of macros can help keep it under control. (menus could be done with a wrapper function that picks the real function to call from item->aux, although that means casting a function pointer to long and back, which may not be such a good idea) ----- use more static data ----- [TL;DR: Don't use environment variables to store config info, use static globals inside the modules instead] I do not think much of our current method of storing state: variable_set2, variable_get, etc. Environment variables seem somewhat clunky, and boiling everything down into strings seems prone to typoes and other problems. I would much rather have state inside static variables of the .c file that works with that bit of state. This would also make cross-module dependencies more obvious, as modules would be calling functions / accessing variables that clearly belong to some module, instead of accessing variable_get which does not clearly document who is responsible for the value. It also makes it more obvious which variables make up some module's state, as they would all be collected in a big block near the top of the source file. However, before we can do this, we need to investigate if sysinstall ever actually spawns a program that cares about those environment variables. We also need to implement saving/loading of variables in each module, if we want to remain compatible with old sysinstall.vars files. However, saving/loading should be an afterthought, not the main design perspective of the whole sysinstall application, IMHO. ----- fine-grained headers ----- [TL;DR: Don't use one big sysinstall.h, give each module its own header and include wisely] I believe we are past the point where our big monolithical sysinstall.h is appropriate. I like to be able to check the #include lines at the top of a file to see who this file will be talking to, I cannot do that now. Specifically, I would like to reduce #include of system headers inside sysinstall.h as much as possible, and I would like to give every module its own header file. The PartType enum, for instance, really belongs in a label.h - if you need it from some other module for some reason, it should be obvious that you need disks stuff by #include'ing label.h. (In this case, nobody else actually needs this definition, so why pollute the global namespace?) Another example, SwapChunk is mostly used in install.c, but also referenced in label.c - we should decide who it really belongs to, and stick it there. Or NCPus is dangerously misnamed - it is never actually initialized to the number of CPUs on the machine... This would be more obvious if one module "owned" the variable and was responsible for initializing it at some point. 900 lines to a header are definitely somewhat excessive, anyway. ----- Summary ----- I have some suggestions how the readability of sysinstall code could be improved, through some large policy/style changes. Of course, opinions differ, and this won't be implemented overnight anyway. This is how I personally think we should attack things, and I think if we do, things will become significantly easier to understand. No actual functionality would change, no new features come in, just some general code janitor work. If you think differently on some points, do say so - maybe we can get some sort of productive discussion going. Whatever we end up at, it should be a start towards a more maintainable sysinstall. So Far, Karsten "BearPerson/BearMan" Behrmann