From owner-freebsd-performance@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 28 15:17:25 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-performance@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC2AF1065673; Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:17:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ohartman@zedat.fu-berlin.de) Received: from outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de (outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de [130.133.4.66]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F80D8FC13; Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:17:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de ([130.133.4.69]) by outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.69) with esmtp (envelope-from ) id <1RfvFs-0005D0-F2>; Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:17:24 +0100 Received: from e178027189.adsl.alicedsl.de ([85.178.27.189] helo=thor.walstatt.dyndns.org) by inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.69) with esmtpsa (envelope-from ) id <1RfvFs-0004hi-8X>; Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:17:24 +0100 Message-ID: <4EFB3303.2000002@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:17:23 +0100 From: "O. Hartmann" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexander Leidinger References: <9sn6eev7rlv8kylsdufdw3mh.1325082279096@email.android.com> In-Reply-To: <9sn6eev7rlv8kylsdufdw3mh.1325082279096@email.android.com> X-Enigmail-Version: undefined Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig733EC6496B9A2087F8292378" X-Originating-IP: 85.178.27.189 Cc: arundel@freebsd.org, freebsd-performance@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linuxulator (was: Re: Benchmark (Phoronix): FreeBSD 9.0-RC2 vs. Oracle Linux 6.1 Server) X-BeenThere: freebsd-performance@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Performance/tuning List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:17:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig733EC6496B9A2087F8292378 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am 12/28/11 15:24, schrieb Alexander Leidinger: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > you assume in your comment that development time "wasted" in the > linuxulator is time lost for other development. This assumption could b= e > valid for a commercially developed OS, but is wrong for FreeBSD. I tell= > this as a person who spend a lot of time with the linux ports, mentored= > a GSoC student who worked on the linuxulator and also put some time int= o > the kernel parts. That wasn't ment to be any offense! And shortly after I wrote this, i remembered myself that many stuff from JAVA is still completely not open due to Linux-shielded/protected stuff. Even commercial companies like DeLL seem to be incabale of offering JAVA apllets which are compatible to all platforms. I tried hard on geting their iDRAC6 stuff running on FreeBSD and recent firefox or even with diablo-jdk as a standalone JAVA application, but it lacks obviously some functionality only available in Linux firefox and/or JAVA. >=20 > The use case for it is: run linux programs which are not available with= > source or where "we" are not able to get it compiled on FreeBSD with a > reasonable effort. As a data point, "we" managed in the past to take th= e > closed source linux version of the Intel C/C++ compiler and manipulate > it in a way to run in the linuxulator but produce FreeBSD binaries. I > got reports that it was used in some HPC scenarios. Yes, you're right. We also used the Intel C and Fortran compiler to run a lot of scientifc programs on some boxes, but noadays, most software, especially scientific one, is 64bit since we deal with huge datasets which need a lot of memory and/or are happy having no memory limitations doing n-body simulations. But this is times ago. I'm sure there are still applications running 32bit, but the benefit of having 64bit and so a native 64bit compiler is quite huge. >=20 > Wasn't it you who asked if there's a way to run CUDA on FreeBSD? > Pessimistic but interested souls would not wait until there is maybe > some result from open sourcing the nvidia compiler and instead either > try to get something similar up and running, or to get a 64 bit version= > of the linuxulator. The later one may be more beneficial for more > people, and may even more easy as the parts are open source and there's= > even some code somewhere in a VCS (maybe in perforce). Yes, it was me who asked for a 32Bit CUDA solution, because I desperately needed OpenCL/CUDA. And I asked because I wouldn't like to leave my FreeBSD platform for achiving this, but I do not have any chance. I tried to get the CUDA stuff working on FreeBSD, but it would take me ages to fullfill and at the end I need a development environment. The BLOG mentioned and referred to achive this is quite old and outdated and also stated that one need either a full Linux installation (Gentoo) or an development box. Well, having a development box menas also having a full working Linux that could be 64bit and running my applications. It is now that way. We use Suse 11 and Ubuntu 10 boxes with TESLA boards from nVidia and I have to compile my stuff and run it on those boxes. I also administer one of such boxes and I must confress, that I'm not happy with that. For once, it might be a personal thing, on the other hand I feel lost on such cryptographic and shell-polluted administrative environments, which could only be administered by special scripted tools - and each Linux distribution seems to have its own, holy and mystical way to encrypt former clean administrative ways to do. Days ago nVidia and AMD claimed to have opened their OpenCL intermediate language/representation and and nVidia claims to have opensourced their compiler. But althought requested being "member" of the elite group of people having access to that piece of software, I did not get access to it. So, it seems not to be real opensourced. But I think this might be a topic of another thread, which would be very interesting to me to discuss, since I'm not that familiar with what is possible in FreeBSD and what not. I see that, from the theoretical perspective of how LLVM works, their could be a chance to get FreeBSD on par with Linux in GPGPU concerned applications, which becomes very, very important now. >=20 > Bye, > Alexander. Regards, Oliver >=20 > --=20 > Send via an Android device, please forgive brevity and typographic and > spelling errors. >=20 >=20 > "O. Hartmann" hat geschrieben: > On 12/23/11 12:44, Alexander Best wrote: > [...] >>> Many suggested that the Linux binaries be run via the FreeBSD Linux >>> emulation. Unchanged. >>> There is one problem here though, the emulation is still 32 bit. >> >> plus the current emulation layer is far from complete. a lot of stuff > hasn't >> been implemented yet (meaning it's missing or implemented as dummy cod= e). >> >> try running recent firefox linux binaries on freebsd. they will all cr= ash >> almost instantly. >> >> cheers. >> alex >> >=20 > [...] >=20 > Sometimes I'm glad to have the Linuxulator, for instance using > Mathematica or an older 32bit IDL or even MATLAB. But lately, I run int= o > problems on more recent platforms like FreeBSD 9 and 10. >=20 > There maybe serious reasons having the Linuxulator, i do not know. But > if not, why spending rare developer resources on that? As far as I'm > concerned, the only real reason having the Linuxulator is some stuff > from Adobe for desktop systems, Flash. That's it. > For the scientific stuff, I try to move my people towards OpenSource, > since we do "standard" stuff and I expect students and scientists > solving problems without fancy coloured clicky funny things. In > "production", this might be another point of view. SciLab from INRIA is= > great, MuPAD, MAXIMA also. >=20 >=20 > But is there a real need running the Linux binary of Forefox on FreeBSD= ? >=20 > Regards, > Oliver >=20 --=20 O. Hartmann Freie Universit=C3=A4t Berlin Institut fuer Geologische Wissenschaften Fachrichtung Planetologie und Fernerkundung Malteser-Str. 74--100/Haus D D-12249 Berlin Tel.: +49 (0) 30 838 70 508 FAX: +49 (0) 30 838 70 837 --------------enig733EC6496B9A2087F8292378 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (FreeBSD) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJO+zMDAAoJEOgBcD7A/5N8Zm4IAODc+TNbWJaBiGYKEsiciTe7 UhF+BPks6+4SHR/YVoBduz3ciFBAjNZMQ9Tc3zjgLVjfDSa9458tvssYaGUexT70 jSqM8o515oIE8YbMXN1CFuJ1/l3iERlWcO861Flh+Dem2p9weyDlTtXhWuMfrrMw 3y5RSI+aDlQGtQQJ21BaDl66jz/vsdL0lZIESTWaxzud20Sf9gfIrqeSU0FADNr+ 8fdqqYf9nsvo/7p4LZ2IHrhWbS0U750G24Vr+lYvD518JWuA9wvk+Vs/eK8Atr60 iuiY+hY3RrumdvGepJm1NQdO64NQ+47PQoRrEJefyd+fD/upwpg5dLf+pWyfts8= =P5tT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig733EC6496B9A2087F8292378-- From owner-freebsd-performance@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 30 13:00:46 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-performance@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA211065670; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:00:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 695AE8FC13; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:00:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iadj38 with SMTP id j38so32027808iad.13 for ; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 05:00:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=0MbvcyFA/f147B/kHGo2/BAPi+i0zkXzPLSL7QEsM3Y=; b=A+X8QZhyG860yFpWZejNAwqGcawr//1A4oNQtrRvL49tSrYuuyynTQbTbSP6d8lcpH +W47ZHJVcdyZ44zNqD57XnX/tHYumu/Pq9GK3EKgu7i+zuHCGgWF7hXYFjYdlqxgxcFz zFPYqDLo2TPFJa8+0vdHnxTR4e3RO8RLyf2jU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.153.135 with SMTP id vg7mr46231063igb.12.1325250041965; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 05:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.207.7 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 05:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.207.7 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 05:00:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EF45C85.9010709@mail.zedat.fu-berlin.de> References: <4EF25468.9040204@gmail.com> <4EF2C613.3020609@digsys.bg> <4EF3D68C.2060803@zedat.fu-berlin.de> <20111223074706.1afe4d26@zelda.sugioarto.com> <4EF45C85.9010709@mail.zedat.fu-berlin.de> Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:00:39 +0000 Message-ID: From: Chris Rees To: "O. Hartmann" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:07:53 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Martin Sugioarto , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Igor Mozolevsky , Kalchev , freebsd-performance@freebsd.org, "O. Hartmann" , Daniel@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Benchmark (Phoronix): FreeBSD 9.0-RC2 vs. Oracle Linux 6.1 Server X-BeenThere: freebsd-performance@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Performance/tuning List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:00:46 -0000 On 23 Dec 2011 12:25, "O. Hartmann" wrote: > > Look at Steve Kargls problem. He investigated a SCHED_ULE problem in a > way that is far beyond enough! He gave tests, insights of his setup, bad > performance compared to SCHED_4BSD and what happend? We are still stuck > with this problem and more and more people realise, that FreeBSD does > have somewhere a problem and this seems to be a nasty problem not easy > to find or investigate. But look at how Steve has been silenced in the > past ... > Benchmarks, especially published ones, reveal those pits and soemone > could look into it. > Another problem is this very elite-feeling closed club. Once you managed > it getting into the club of committers or core team members, you'll > probably fight for your seat ... You are aware that Steve is part of the 'elite club', right? Many of us rarely use our @FreeBSD.org addresses; you'd probably be surprised at the names in the Developers list. Just being a committer gives your opinions very little weight; everyone has to make their case in the same way. There's really, really no eliteism here! Chris From owner-freebsd-performance@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 30 13:01:50 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-performance@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D7B1065670 for ; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:01:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@acm.org) Received: from fallbackmx08.syd.optusnet.com.au (fallbackmx08.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A158FC18 for ; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:01:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail27.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail27.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.133.168]) by fallbackmx08.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id pBUAoIqp006628 for ; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 21:50:18 +1100 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c220-239-116-103.belrs4.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.116.103]) by mail27.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id pBUAo1lX032284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Dec 2011 21:50:02 +1100 X-Bogosity: Ham, spamicity=0.000000 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.5/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pBUAnxHj048739; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 21:49:59 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.5/8.14.4/Submit) id pBUAnwvs048738; Fri, 30 Dec 2011 21:49:58 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 21:49:57 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: "O. Hartmann" Message-ID: <20111230104957.GE55604@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <4EF25468.9040204@gmail.com> <4EF2C613.3020609@digsys.bg> <4EF3D68C.2060803@zedat.fu-berlin.de> <20111223074706.1afe4d26@zelda.sugioarto.com> <4EF45C85.9010709@mail.zedat.fu-berlin.de> <4EF46829.6010508@digsys.bg> <4EF5E65C.3060405@mail.zedat.fu-berlin.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4EF5E65C.3060405@mail.zedat.fu-berlin.de> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:08:23 +0000 Cc: freebsd-performance@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, Daniel Kalchev Subject: Re: Benchmark (Phoronix): FreeBSD 9.0-RC2 vs. Oracle Linux 6.1 Server X-BeenThere: freebsd-performance@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Performance/tuning List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:01:50 -0000 --TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2011-Dec-24 15:49:00 +0100, "O. Hartmann" wrote: >On 12/23/11 12:38, Daniel Kalchev wrote: >> Here is now it works: >>=20 >> If you see an problem and have a solution: go fix it. Many will be >> grateful. >> If you can't fix it, but have an idea how to fix it, share it. May will >> be grateful. >> If you can't fix it and don't have any idea, just say "there is a >> problem" and stop there. There are many, many, many like you who just >> hold their breath. >>=20 >> We all learn, every day. >>=20 >> Daniel > >Sorry, but your crap is simply breathtaking. That was completely uncalled for. You have spent the last month or so whinging about FreeBSD but I have yet to see you provide any constructive input. Instead of whinging about ULE not doing what you want, how about you either fix it yourself or offer to fund someone to fix it for you. --=20 Peter Jeremy --TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAk79l1UACgkQ/opHv/APuIf5SACglo/bMd73JAGSaZQp1Kmdl7uv EEsAnRtfpln8yjVKPdNdkahL+KB41qoy =6dle -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc--