From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 9 04:22:30 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02CA4227 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2012 04:22:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@speakeasy.net) Received: from asbnvacz-mailrelay01.megapath.net (asbnvacz-mailrelay01.megapath.net [207.145.128.243]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE2F08FC13 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2012 04:22:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.48]) by asbnvacz-mailrelay01.megapath.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C5FA7152B for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2012 23:22:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 4739 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2012 04:22:22 -0000 Received: by simscan 1.4.0 ppid: 14473, pid: 30158, t: 0.0717s scanners: clamav: 0.88.2/m:52/d:10739 Received: from unknown (HELO w16.stradamotorsports.com) (jcw@[64.81.163.122]) (envelope-sender ) by mail4.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 9 Dec 2012 04:22:22 -0000 Message-ID: <50C411FD.6050009@speakeasy.net> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2012 20:22:21 -0800 From: "Jason C. Wells" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120630 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Outside_the_Box LLC Subject: Re: /newbie_forums References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 04:22:30 -0000 Newbie or not, this question is appropriate to freebsd-questions. Feel free to send it there. The so-called veteran users will be glad to help. There are all types responding to -questions including other noobs. I personally never used or participated in forums. Regards, Jason On 12/08/12 08:48, Outside_the_Box LLC wrote: > hey, > where do i point my browser to get into freebsd 9 newbie forums?... > i have been on the site, handbook, and done searches and don't find one... > i find newbie questions listed in searches not newbie forums... > i don't want to annoy veteran user forums with my 'stupid' newbie install > questions... > example: > i'm re-installing free 9 and it "could not start wpa_supplicant"... > i'm freshly writing it onto entire disc(drive)... > thanks for any help in locating forums for new install newbie questions... > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 9 05:30:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7363D99D for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2012 05:30:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wblock@wonkity.com) Received: from wonkity.com (wonkity.com [67.158.26.137]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27FC78FC17 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2012 05:30:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wonkity.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wonkity.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id qB95UPxP002371; Sat, 8 Dec 2012 22:30:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wblock@wonkity.com) Received: from localhost (wblock@localhost) by wonkity.com (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id qB95UO1t002368; Sat, 8 Dec 2012 22:30:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wblock@wonkity.com) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 22:30:24 -0700 (MST) From: Warren Block To: "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: /newbie_forums In-Reply-To: <50C411FD.6050009@speakeasy.net> Message-ID: References: <50C411FD.6050009@speakeasy.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wonkity.com [127.0.0.1]); Sat, 08 Dec 2012 22:30:25 -0700 (MST) Cc: Outside_the_Box LLC , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 05:30:32 -0000 On Sat, 8 Dec 2012, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Newbie or not, this question is appropriate to freebsd-questions. Feel free > to send it there. The so-called veteran users will be glad to help. There are > all types responding to -questions including other noobs. I personally never > used or participated in forums. The forums actually have a fair bit of activity, more than many of the mailing lists. The web format allows highlighting code and commands, which helps make the messages clearer. If you haven't taken a look, please do. More people are always welcome. http://forums.freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 9 14:36:18 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82635ED1; Sun, 9 Dec 2012 14:36:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deeptech71@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vb0-f54.google.com (mail-vb0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F02D8FC08; Sun, 9 Dec 2012 14:36:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vb0-f54.google.com with SMTP id l1so2298238vba.13 for ; Sun, 09 Dec 2012 06:36:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=0m7Odmf+PAMvhcr40IMO1gcmQNzmJMx3yyHerfv9FZY=; b=I0K86yF6lYelleni+54uyldIRWpgf/Go5z9Le4SFcS2EAEkMGxmLPen8k1fa6QGBQk hAh+GNSYD+wp6cWfOrBsg24wqKROjHfXm/lSYBG3zppJDdXLeYQCm1OFcmcXSjPHwtSt 76mZFWReQmAjdJJ83NqwQT2r8BA2cYPxhpERR5DLkOScdRkOJw5F9Lkh26AHFykAw7p+ Nsx3K2yJe2AKDkSWupSprgPl05dzv6lwJgHC7+TICDdi6uRbcl/RWvgmLFyFgpNYD6K2 ienPotj3EoUZeskiA5KNB33c4NFgtlv1PO41wg87Xq+soM3CP+Dfe+FkDRR2yp/vO30N pTOg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.75.100 with SMTP id b4mr6281426vdw.52.1355063777247; Sun, 09 Dec 2012 06:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.244.130 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Dec 2012 06:36:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 15:36:17 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is enabling Google Analytics on www.freebsd.org From: "deeptech71@gmail.com" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: gjb@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 14:36:18 -0000 Glen Barber wrote: > The FreeBSD Project is enabling Google Analytics on www.freebsd.org. Congratulations, by choosing probably the easiest-to-use but most-threatening-to-users tracking system, you have successfully managed to display amateurism on part of the web site's staff. > But we can do this on our own, why do we need to send data to a third > party? > > - Doing this on our own means increased infrastructure, increased > maintenance, and increased security exposure. > > - Google already supplies a large number of tools, there isn't a need > to duplicate effort. Noone asked you to create your own tools from the ground up. Ironically speaking, have you even googled for (open source) web analytics software? Software that takes 10 minutes to install. > - Google Analytics answers questions that cannot be discerned from > just grepping logs. For example, How long do FreeBSD users browse > the website; which pages are most likely to bounce users or draw > users in; what is the most common screen resolution, which Operating > Systems visitors to the website read and which pages specifically? > By using Google Analytics, some of the things we can learn > (specifically about our documentation) include: You meant to say: "By using some web analytics solution, some of the things we can learn include [...]; BTW, we choose Google's solution." > But I don't want Google to know I exist!? > > It is possible to opt-out by setting the "Do Not Track" flag on your > browser. Information (that can be used against me) gathered indirectly from billions of sources is often stronger than information gathered directly. I'd rather have it that Google could track me, but noone else. European Union data protection regulations -- smartly -- require web sites to notify users if their data is being collected, although these regulations are not very actively enforced yet. Not only that you do not have such a notification, you don't even have the Privacy Policy section linked on the main page! From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 9 18:27:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA0799F for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2012 18:27:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsk@gsp.org) Received: from taos.firemountain.net (taos.firemountain.net [207.114.3.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC638FC08 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2012 18:27:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from gsp.org (bltmd-207.114.17.210.dsl.charm.net [207.114.17.210]) by taos.firemountain.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id qB9HwuH6016223 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2012 12:58:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 12:58:50 -0500 From: Rich Kulawiec To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Google spyware on FreeBSD Web site? Message-ID: <20121209175850.GA31072@gsp.org> References: <201212041900.MAA14107@lariat.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201212041900.MAA14107@lariat.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 18:27:31 -0000 I often disgree with Brett, sometimes sharply, but on this issue I strongly concur. Some points to augment/add, briefly: - Requiring "opt-out" is always an explicit admission that what's being done is being inflicted on users without their prior, informed, express consent. It's disrepectful and abusive. The FreeBSD project should be better than that and never require opt-out of anything, ever. - Of course, as has been pointed out, open-source analytic software that runs on FreeBSD is of course not only available, but vastly preferable. - But it won't work either, because most of the input data is crud. (This isn't FreeBSD's fault: most of the data accumulated in most of the web server logs globally is crud.) [1] The conclusions drawn from processing mostly-crud data won't have much, if any, validity. - This also presumes that the right questions are being asked. It's not clear, at this point, whether they are or aren't. If, for example, the question is "will page Z on the FreeBSD web site work with browser X on operating system Y?" then resources such as BrowserShots (http://www.browsershots.org) will provide credible answers. If the question is "how long is a user spending on page Z?" then no tool will provide a credible answer. Moreover, the question itself is pointless. So I suggest, if the goal is to improve the web site (and that is a good goal) an open public debate over which questions should be asked before moving on to the question of which software tools might be able to provide answers to those questions. (And yes, since I'm arguing that it should happen, I'll contribute to the effort.) - If you want active feedback from users, then maintaining a proper role address (webmaster@) is the best way to do that. I see that's already in place, and that's excellent. - Of course standards compliance and cross-browser/cross-platform testing are great ways to ensure that the site is as usable as possible by as many people as possible. Based on what I see on the site via things like the W3C validator as well as trying it using multiple browsers on multiple operating systems, it appears to me that considerable work has already been done on this: the site is viewable, navigable, etc. without issue on any of them. Once again, that's excellent. ---rsk [1] The majority of data found in the typical public webserver's logs is crud because it doesn't originate from human action: it originates from software. Of course, in case of many common webcrawlers, this activity is relatively easy to isolate. But that leaves all the crud originating from malicious/surreptitious software agents such as those running on a few hundred million compromised/botted/zombied systems. This data is (mostly) functionally indistinguishable from that originating from humans, and for many sites, it dwarfs the latter. So while certainly it can be fed to analytic software (along with all of the actual human-originated data) what emerges is quite often useless. Techniques *do* exist to isolate and filter this spurious data out, but they're unreliable, tedious, manual, and they don't scale well. "GIGO" is an old acronym, and not used much any more, but it certainly applies here. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 10 05:01:27 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C176AF77 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 05:01:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bounces+freebsd-chat=freebsd.org@dynect-mailer.com) Received: from mtaout-243-pao.email7.skillpagesmail.com (mtaout-243-pao.email7.skillpagesmail.com [216.146.32.243]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951018FC08 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 05:01:27 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; s=MTA2; d=skillpagesmail.com; h=MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Sender:List-Unsubscribe:Content-Type:Reply-To; i=no-reply@skillpagesmail.com; bh=YQDVYWIwpN115xvmd2xmdYtIvVM=; b=1UCvo1hkKnoFRJC1dBFM9oB7YttH0NQoCh/4VK9jWoUEeglKBo4OoT0Cks6qYVevmk7jthjhcJis WyLMtx1avqj0opT9XhsqohYreX5TbZAqW4nyxitOi00BiSK8PZTW DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; q=dns; s=MTA2; d=skillpagesmail.com; b=gqOgU4KSIJTDezE2n5qbYfv3sgBZAE82kdsgG6V4McnfC091/68MC/Mi95YcnHKDEWRmgtmHYqQR h9UUOx10D2be3cN2ApTp5Je/gqncFriJxCSIb437sQzKEeTYodRN; Received: from Dynect (216.146.41.16) by mtaout-243-pao.email7.skillpagesmail.com (PowerMTA(TM) v3.5r16) id holmae18ies7 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 04:51:20 +0000 (envelope-from ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 04:51:06 +0000 Message-ID: <82F65B35FECAD9F355081772B50F11A03479F69B@USPRODSVC002B> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) From: "Gajanan Chaudhai" X-Mailer: www.skillpages.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Your invitation from Gajanan Chaudhai is about to expire Sender: "Gajanan Chaudhai via SkillPages Team" X-Skillpagesmail.com-ClientID: {f0efe8b1-b1e7-5af2-bdcd-b9a2aa1e02e7} FullCode: Reminder1_Invitation_{0}_NonUser EmailId: Et0R1EJ-EeK1G8l1QpXmnw2 Errors-To: Et0R1EJ-EeK1G8l1QpXmnw2@skillpagesmail.com X-DynectEmail-Msg-Hash: qBOBTgXouCaEXg0smXVuisUudxZc3cgEZElkXZf+KdG601VPI0Mmt1advyBJ7WT4tXpd5yfgA1uBM0A6tBo6Pm6YM51k5ZRFUW4FMc9SaIU= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.14 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Gajanan Chaudhai List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 05:01:27 -0000 Hi, Unlock new opportunities for you and your contacts. Gajanan Chaudhai Invite sent: 3 December, 2012 Join me on SkillPages freebsd-chat@freebsd.org was invited to join SkillPages by Gajanan Chaudhai.= To stop receiving emails from SkillPages click here . =A9 2012 SkillPages, Blackrock Business Park, Dublin, Ireland and 228 Hamilt= on Avenue, 3rd Floor, Palo Alto, CA 94301. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 10 09:20:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDF82C3 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 09:20:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lars@e-new.0x20.net) Received: from mail.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [IPv6:2001:aa8:fffb:1::3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 044598FC16 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 09:20:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [IPv6:2001:aa8:fffb:1::3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.0x20.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20C3D6A6000; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:19:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id qBA9JwCi020320; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:19:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from lars@e-new.0x20.net) Received: (from lars@localhost) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id qBA9Jwk8018971; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:19:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from lars) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:19:58 +0100 From: Lars Engels To: Warren Block Subject: Re: /newbie_forums Message-ID: <20121210091957.GO69108@e-new.0x20.net> References: <50C411FD.6050009@speakeasy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6o5AAeie4QQ7Mfd3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 7.3 X-Operation-System: FreeBSD 8.3-RELEASE-p4 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: Outside_the_Box LLC , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, "Jason C. Wells" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 09:20:01 -0000 --6o5AAeie4QQ7Mfd3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Dec 08, 2012 at 10:30:24PM -0700, Warren Block wrote: > On Sat, 8 Dec 2012, Jason C. Wells wrote: >=20 > > Newbie or not, this question is appropriate to freebsd-questions. Feel= free=20 > > to send it there. The so-called veteran users will be glad to help. The= re are=20 > > all types responding to -questions including other noobs. I personally = never=20 > > used or participated in forums. >=20 > The forums actually have a fair bit of activity, more than many of the=20 > mailing lists. The web format allows highlighting code and commands,=20 > which helps make the messages clearer. >=20 > If you haven't taken a look, please do. More people are always welcome. >=20 > http://forums.freebsd.org I even think that there are more posts per day than mails on the FreeBSD mailing lists. --6o5AAeie4QQ7Mfd3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAlDFqT0ACgkQKc512sD3afh5HgCeLgodaxEQE/zEl0NIy4JE2Iza hHUAnjmMf2fDo8si2n0fCuxgGxHjw2CY =8Mq2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6o5AAeie4QQ7Mfd3-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 10 09:38:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 669A8826; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 09:38:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lars@e-new.0x20.net) Received: from mail.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [IPv6:2001:aa8:fffb:1::3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09E638FC08; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 09:38:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [IPv6:2001:aa8:fffb:1::3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.0x20.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 472436A6000; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:38:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id qBA9cgfo054610; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:38:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from lars@e-new.0x20.net) Received: (from lars@localhost) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id qBA9cgHk053879; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:38:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from lars) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:38:42 +0100 From: Lars Engels To: "deeptech71@gmail.com" Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is enabling Google Analytics on www.freebsd.org Message-ID: <20121210093841.GP69108@e-new.0x20.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="d8o5DkpIDJ25MRRD" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 7.3 X-Operation-System: FreeBSD 8.3-RELEASE-p4 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: gjb@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 09:38:43 -0000 --d8o5DkpIDJ25MRRD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Dec 09, 2012 at 03:36:17PM +0100, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: > Glen Barber wrote: > > The FreeBSD Project is enabling Google Analytics on www.freebsd.org. >=20 > Congratulations, by choosing probably the easiest-to-use but > most-threatening-to-users tracking system, you have successfully > managed to display amateurism on part of the web site's staff. >=20 > > But we can do this on our own, why do we need to send data to a third > > party? > > > > - Doing this on our own means increased infrastructure, increased > > maintenance, and increased security exposure. > > > > - Google already supplies a large number of tools, there isn't a need > > to duplicate effort. >=20 > Noone asked you to create your own tools from the ground up. > Ironically speaking, have you even googled for (open source) web > analytics software? Software that takes 10 minutes to install. >=20 > > - Google Analytics answers questions that cannot be discerned from > > just grepping logs. For example, How long do FreeBSD users browse > > the website; which pages are most likely to bounce users or draw > > users in; what is the most common screen resolution, which Operating > > Systems visitors to the website read and which pages specifically? >=20 > > By using Google Analytics, some of the things we can learn > > (specifically about our documentation) include: >=20 > You meant to say: "By using some web analytics solution, some of the > things we can learn include [...]; BTW, we choose Google's solution." >=20 > > But I don't want Google to know I exist!? > > > > It is possible to opt-out by setting the "Do Not Track" flag on your > > browser. >=20 > Information (that can be used against me) gathered indirectly from > billions of sources is often stronger than information gathered > directly. I'd rather have it that Google could track me, but noone > else. >=20 >=20 > European Union data protection regulations -- smartly -- require web > sites to notify users if their data is being collected, although these > regulations are not very actively enforced yet. Not only that you do > not have such a notification, you don't even have the Privacy Policy > section linked on the main page! There are probably millions of websites that use GA.=20 Have you already complained to the their operators about using GA? If not, please do so. --d8o5DkpIDJ25MRRD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iEUEARECAAYFAlDFraEACgkQKc512sD3afjIywCY5y0wCIO0A45qnrIDAcKZzX0G fwCgq9LqclwHNf64vWRoVkCkunvJF40= =WLzp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --d8o5DkpIDJ25MRRD-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 10 23:35:38 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8FD6FE8; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 23:35:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from royce.williams@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lb0-f182.google.com (mail-lb0-f182.google.com [209.85.217.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37A3C8FC13; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 23:35:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lb0-f182.google.com with SMTP id go10so3141706lbb.13 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:35:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=uCI2+lypk/0jbvBTCDWZ2TD6EPeQM3ir3EF+NfpuI8o=; b=SugSRRzXY6+m56SSBH60fToi4HwlDWY+9XlBp+syWgy9u0U/Oz+851gz88ctqYLtVg TcEe6wRj2HTM4uG0nuoeisDYb9vs1lGGkusUL1EDdcjZjHFRta/zpQTSuDLfdNKeHt4x Jr/M1cEHKdZIaHCmT2hH9A+pxKsXZY/d2ljeH3M50gw1bpiJ5zewgc7eVr0M/IVWPNNM 1CsID7faDdSd5qz0eEIKrhkITHqS1SE0rlZGwI1gA4k7D6GqnDIYQ+1P28Q9bXwlyFX/ hvkOP1cYEsyfoKM8JMdYg05uCG2pTufccTXOoSpGl4gw8iztqOhiyjqBwp3rRkPmYtYw wGRA== Received: by 10.112.23.34 with SMTP id j2mr6811627lbf.118.1355182536750; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:35:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: royce.williams@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.134.199 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:35:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20121210093841.GP69108@e-new.0x20.net> References: <20121210093841.GP69108@e-new.0x20.net> From: Royce Williams Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:35:16 -0900 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ARw0RSDsq9eEnoZTKOG2mM5awDg Message-ID: Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is enabling Google Analytics on www.freebsd.org To: Lars Engels Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: "deeptech71@gmail.com" , "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" , gjb@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 23:35:39 -0000 On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 12:38 AM, Lars Engels wrote: > On Sun, Dec 09, 2012 at 03:36:17PM +0100, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: >> Glen Barber wrote: >> > The FreeBSD Project is enabling Google Analytics on www.freebsd.org. >> >> Congratulations, by choosing probably the easiest-to-use but >> most-threatening-to-users tracking system, you have successfully >> managed to display amateurism on part of the web site's staff. > There are probably millions of websites that use GA. > Have you already complained to the their operators about using GA? If > not, please do so. Whoa. While the rhetoric has been a little heated, I think that deeptech71's point is that it is precisely the ubiquitousness of GA that makes it more dangerous. This response adds to the heat but does not respond to his technical points. I'm no conspiracy theorist, and GA's reports are excellent, but if there is some way for the FreeBSD project to get 80% of the functionality without sending the data to a third party, I'd be in favor of that. Royce From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 11 10:26:40 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80DD9316 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2012 10:26:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsk@gsp.org) Received: from taos.firemountain.net (taos.firemountain.net [207.114.3.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DC668FC16 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2012 10:26:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from gsp.org (bltmd-207.114.17.210.dsl.charm.net [207.114.17.210]) by taos.firemountain.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id qBBAQTdC022177 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2012 05:26:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 05:26:24 -0500 From: Rich Kulawiec To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is enabling Google Analytics on www.freebsd.org Message-ID: <20121211102624.GA17131@gsp.org> References: <20121210093841.GP69108@e-new.0x20.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 10:26:40 -0000 On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 02:35:16PM -0900, Royce Williams wrote: > I'm no conspiracy theorist, and GA's reports are excellent, but if > there is some way for the FreeBSD project to get 80% of the > functionality without sending the data to a third party, I'd be in > favor of that. I concur with your point and the sentiment behind it, but until we know precisely *what* functionality is in question here, it's not clear whether 80% or 20% or 95% of it is actually necessary. The FreeBSD web developers should clearly articulate what problems they believe to be in play, why they believe them to be problems, and how they plan to characterize and quantify them. At this point, I see no evidence on table that indicates why the raw web logs can't be used directly. (That is NOT a statement that such evidence doesn't exist: it might. In fact, I presume it does because I presume that the web developers would use them if they would suffice. But it's a statement that this evidence and the accompanying reasoning have not yet been placed in front of all of us for consideration.) ---rsk From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 15 17:39:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CAE7DB for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2012 17:39:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@speakeasy.net) Received: from asbnvacz-mailrelay01.megapath.net (asbnvacz-mailrelay01.megapath.net [207.145.128.243]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868C18FC13 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2012 17:39:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.50]) by asbnvacz-mailrelay01.megapath.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A19A5A7186B for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2012 12:39:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 12538 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2012 17:39:26 -0000 Received: by simscan 1.4.0 ppid: 30261, pid: 32641, t: 0.0886s scanners: clamav: 0.88.2/m:52/d:10739 Received: from unknown (HELO w16.stradamotorsports.com) (jcw@[64.81.163.120]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 15 Dec 2012 17:39:26 -0000 Message-ID: <50CCB5CD.5020108@speakeasy.net> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 09:39:25 -0800 From: "Jason C. Wells" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120630 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fbsd_chat Subject: Four Releases per Release is Too Many Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 17:39:33 -0000 It seems to me that four preliminary releases is way too much work. Three RCs plus a Pre. I think two is fine and use maybe three for a dot-0 major release. I know you're trying to flush out the bugs. Are you really flushing out any more bugs than a two stages process would uncover? Regards, Jason