From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 16 09:11:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A5D61065670 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:11:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com (mail-pb0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F09A48FC0C for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:11:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbbrp2 with SMTP id rp2so8271799pbb.13 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 02:11:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:message-id :to:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=BVp06qGdyj96BGKvn2zmx5hemEhpEpt22CxavTSC1FQ=; b=KIFtMSKvqLbwW+lUgGA1Wht/FdP8zkaOpL7Apm4rIgqq3svAcMUOeaQBiMDTp5LQ8X GfZbtOvt9M/bMxf8ZD+P8qq3K432lRKvYFRcKpPV1o5evxeTHnX2kQr3dgaUY1g9+cZ1 Tc9881L7W9ssFBPIYtfFrE3xVCmSOYMBeGOP0m8Uxfzjkh2dz1n5obIQ8C0NBLqSoUrq tCVhsgCTFEiowRIuXZ/lIKOaClab8+uoGW6ti0jTwFh9wBCq2sx4dSYI0cf8KLOr3wPQ ydkbgTvfeRig2E1ZHB3d/RzYoY571AMdwdvYOAqrN+q7WO39mluOmjv6VjIc3eVU3gLj Yadw== Received: by 10.68.218.101 with SMTP id pf5mr14916613pbc.60.1347786671788; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 02:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fuji-wireless.local (c-24-19-191-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [24.19.191.56]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id uh7sm4673960pbc.35.2012.09.16.02.11.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 16 Sep 2012 02:11:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Garrett Cooper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 02:11:10 -0700 Message-Id: <9332B40A-BBCC-4004-B2B0-4A51091AFF3C@gmail.com> To: FreeBSD Hackers Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Subject: [RFC] Add *.orig/*.rej to svn:ignore in src? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:11:12 -0000 I noticed that we have a handful of patterns currently ignored = in svn:ignore (at least at the top-level=85 the lower levels don't = appear to be set in any particular manner): $ svn propget svn:ignore _.tinderbox.* _.amd64.* _.arm.* _.i386.* _.ia64.* _.mips.* _.pc98.* _.powerpc.* _.sparc64.* _.sun4v.* $ svn info | grep URL: URL: http://svn.freebsd.org/base/head I was wondering if *.orig and *.rej should be added to the list = as well to avoid checking in patch `artifact` files? Thanks! -Garrett= From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 16 09:23:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D93881065679 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:23:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486438FC0C for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:23:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (pD9FBEF1A.dip.t-dialin.net [217.251.239.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q8G9NgD7041409; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:23:43 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q8G9NYnr021540; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 11:23:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8G9N3oJ085587; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 11:23:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <201209160923.q8G9N3oJ085587@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Benjamin Kaduk , Yuri From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Sat, 15 Sep 2012 14:49:41 EDT." Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 11:23:03 +0200 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, jhs@berklix.com Subject: Re: Why fdisk can't open root disk with MBR for writing? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:23:46 -0000 This is a resend as Benjamin Kaduk dropped the Yuri from CC line, & Yuri was the original first poster in thread who my patch would presumably have helped. Reference: > From: Benjamin Kaduk > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 14:49:41 -0400 (EDT) > Message-id: Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > On Sat, 15 Sep 2012, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > I have been applying this diff to my man fdisk: > > > > http://berklix.com/~jhs/src/bsd/fixes/FreeBSD/src/gen/sbin/fdisk/ > > > > *** 8.0-RELEASE/src/sbin/fdisk/fdisk.8 Sat Mar 14 22:32:16 2009 > > --- new-generic/src/sbin/fdisk/fdisk.8 Sat Mar 14 22:35:10 2009 > > *************** > > *** 462,464 **** > > --- 462,468 ---- > > The > > .Xr bsdlabel 8 > > command must be used for this. > > + .Pp > > + When running multi user, you cannot write unless you first run this: > > + .br > > + sysctl kern.geom.debugflags=16 > > > > I never submitted it as a send-pr, > > anyone think I should submit it to help save people ? > > We have had a long discussion about kern.geom.debugflags starting here: > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2011-October/028090.html > My understanding from that discussion is that your patch should not be > accepted. Got to travel now, will read that thread later, A shame if we would leave fdisk crippled undocumented, when so easy to doc. the solution. Fdisk is known across many OSs Unix & beyond, our BSD tools may be better nicer, but fdisk it what many will first reach for, a shame not to help newer people & visitors used to fdisk. We inside FreeBSD crippled fdisk by adding these flags. Outsiders wont expect the weirdness & get impression FreeBSD has a bug. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with "> ". Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 16 09:42:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40CB106566B for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:42:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lb0-f182.google.com (mail-lb0-f182.google.com [209.85.217.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8458FC14 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:42:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lbbgg13 with SMTP id gg13so4408732lbb.13 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 02:42:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=UZVxr3eXVULvO2uFpXVsWJ+cQEyDKDJkW4TyfFB9WJI=; b=n8ITm64rJzR9oHzq0rheLS0alqaFw8imaDih1QuIjpJocOXEJA3ZRB2NBIyouvHl3A sWAOlQA0Xc4Dv3PfEQW4ukM0WAjsyhXagGDJ/I9rGDUBY176WEQFOB4jmPSaN2RxHzS1 bNEmDGYnE6qmpc6iToMeAokmBYwef9dawmi0Qk2cfBjubCZBpgxvDvsldZ2d5Yv+e8oa PxOdGZbPDGMWW3SeAlfAc1j3OezuCM0+cwmuzviybvSmDOaPCpL1Ju3+kxE0hxT3ZasU TYRV+GyjLl3M8js7hVa2jmuIRKxeu3wj+3kOymXF2oZvc3b6XCJOLQacKE7CoGTNHJA2 NYYw== Received: by 10.112.26.197 with SMTP id n5mr2913448lbg.18.1347788539604; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 02:42:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: utisoft@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.43.199 with HTTP; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 02:41:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201209160923.q8G9N3oJ085587@fire.js.berklix.net> References: <201209160923.q8G9N3oJ085587@fire.js.berklix.net> From: Chris Rees Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 10:41:49 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: UxUzopR-9Wtr8FaIbnknY0xUk74 Message-ID: To: "Julian H. Stacey" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Yuri , Benjamin Kaduk , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why fdisk can't open root disk with MBR for writing? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:42:21 -0000 On 16 September 2012 10:23, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > This is a resend as Benjamin Kaduk > dropped the > Yuri > from CC line, & Yuri was the original first poster in thread who > my patch would presumably have helped. > > Reference: >> From: Benjamin Kaduk >> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 14:49:41 -0400 (EDT) >> Message-id: > > Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >> On Sat, 15 Sep 2012, Julian H. Stacey wrote: >> >> > I have been applying this diff to my man fdisk: >> > >> > http://berklix.com/~jhs/src/bsd/fixes/FreeBSD/src/gen/sbin/fdisk/ >> > >> > *** 8.0-RELEASE/src/sbin/fdisk/fdisk.8 Sat Mar 14 22:32:16 2009 >> > --- new-generic/src/sbin/fdisk/fdisk.8 Sat Mar 14 22:35:10 2009 >> > *************** >> > *** 462,464 **** >> > --- 462,468 ---- >> > The >> > .Xr bsdlabel 8 >> > command must be used for this. >> > + .Pp >> > + When running multi user, you cannot write unless you first run this: >> > + .br >> > + sysctl kern.geom.debugflags=16 >> > >> > I never submitted it as a send-pr, >> > anyone think I should submit it to help save people ? >> >> We have had a long discussion about kern.geom.debugflags starting here: >> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2011-October/028090.html >> My understanding from that discussion is that your patch should not be >> accepted. > > Got to travel now, will read that thread later, > > A shame if we would leave fdisk crippled undocumented, when so easy > to doc. the solution. Fdisk is known across many OSs Unix & beyond, > our BSD tools may be better nicer, but fdisk it what many will first > reach for, > a shame not to help newer people & visitors used to fdisk. > We inside FreeBSD crippled fdisk by adding these flags. Outsiders > wont expect the weirdness & get impression FreeBSD has a bug. I think you have a point, but at the moment fdisk really doesn't work properly at all; I find so many people complaining on IRC about "Why doesn't fdisk work?" To be honest, I'd be happy with replacing fdisk with a huge warning "USE GPART!!"; fdisk isn't really standard anyway. The alternative of course is to fix fdisk... *properly*. Chris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 16 09:44:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4CB1065676 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:44:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ae@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE6C150B16; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:43:02 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <50559F1A.9080807@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 13:42:50 +0400 From: "Andrey V. Elsukov" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:10.0.3) Gecko/20120406 Thunderbird/10.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Julian H. Stacey" References: <201209151322.q8FDMobF058992@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: <201209151322.q8FDMobF058992@fire.js.berklix.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 OpenPGP: id=10C8A17A Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig32899940BB548D59F1A010E0" Cc: Garrett Cooper , Yuri , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why fdisk can't open root disk with MBR for writing? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:44:21 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig32899940BB548D59F1A010E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 15.09.2012 17:22, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > + When running multi user, you cannot write unless you first run this: > + .br > + sysctl kern.geom.debugflags=3D16 >=20 > I never submitted it as a send-pr,=20 > anyone think I should submit it to help save people ? I don't think this is good idea. Setting this flag is more dangerous than helpful. And i already removed this suggestion from several places. All utilities that know how to work with GEOM, do their job without such hack. --=20 WBR, Andrey V. Elsukov --------------enig32899940BB548D59F1A010E0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJQVZ8jAAoJEAHF6gQQyKF6qwsIALqsYHZ2an3kEgHuRZ2rYOWD 6FECL2BXE8w9nj8+ETRf8h1VfVYxo4QCX0kNxi7wmS+uhTYirG82WiYM5J15XSAG kicNlcW6IbGaXuP4i8BnpvG0/cWAY+mTjsEgZJRWQqFpuDGPoZBi6DHAwzN7M026 ORFgEI/9aOln0ccrOgv0iELSD/T4S42vkr8n2a8+ONzMklioTmsRrvqu3LnOOtsP Xe9N8yBBFEh9K1J2ikoy6TYE011pQdttiMRHXoFg3k30zYXvPqifiB2Do0FqWals zsg6MqnkY5immXvxs+06p7Umvp54mQEdN2N09UnUzzQ2wkK41chDt/TL+jNqUNc= =6svC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig32899940BB548D59F1A010E0-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 16 15:03:29 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1406F106575C for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 15:03:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bk0-f54.google.com (mail-bk0-f54.google.com [209.85.214.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C23B8FC14 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 15:03:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bkcje9 with SMTP id je9so1913174bkc.13 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 08:03:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5LImN9ZWnR0e0a6zu36NTxd15P1NHkDlqDTk1mmlVOg=; b=gX2lZiqU4HEfWPkkA69PGb497yZMNXHfvtsQdr94z4PKwWV0e1F9CfBKWy41krrlyz zBuPjhEePRczwWPJcX1rZd9U63ej0ueeOEynb128BuFfcqP5ObBfJG9t2EHzn1kQqdZW sF1E0QvehYS5UKXJqECHUdSAOj+AoiYQwkAvjoLNa1pU0SHrls3p7aHww2KuvfdLqI5u yxya0YIWooZIQJm4SmB3/ajCTlDSij13Q9fs3jh7zM1pzNnjsVe63LjxeLHB3KSVXaeS GHgFQK4N+Cd52/hsSVbm2OErOyZjNV3nc8VL7AaYzEUEhfV2IBntdzF60SLlL3XGfelK atlQ== Received: by 10.204.133.193 with SMTP id g1mr3512389bkt.2.1347807807586; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 08:03:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: utisoft@gmail.com Received: by 10.204.10.141 with HTTP; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 08:02:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9332B40A-BBCC-4004-B2B0-4A51091AFF3C@gmail.com> References: <9332B40A-BBCC-4004-B2B0-4A51091AFF3C@gmail.com> From: Chris Rees Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 16:02:57 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: RgVhyAygByBnYg1J6jMtWsRrouU Message-ID: To: Garrett Cooper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: [RFC] Add *.orig/*.rej to svn:ignore in src? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 15:03:29 -0000 On 16 September 2012 10:11, Garrett Cooper wrote: > I noticed that we have a handful of patterns currently ignored in= svn:ignore (at least at the top-level=85 the lower levels don't appear to = be set in any particular manner): > > $ svn propget svn:ignore > _.tinderbox.* > _.amd64.* > _.arm.* > _.i386.* > _.ia64.* > _.mips.* > _.pc98.* > _.powerpc.* > _.sparc64.* > _.sun4v.* > > $ svn info | grep URL: > URL: http://svn.freebsd.org/base/head > > I was wondering if *.orig and *.rej should be added to the list a= s well to avoid checking in patch `artifact` files? Do you have an example where this has happened? Chris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 16 19:08:48 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8E8106566B for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 19:08:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lokadamus@gmx.de) Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net (mailout-de.gmx.net [213.165.64.22]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3618E8FC0A for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 19:08:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 Sep 2012 19:08:46 -0000 Received: from d019035.adsl.hansenet.de (EHLO [192.168.45.2]) [80.171.19.35] by mail.gmx.net (mp040) with SMTP; 16 Sep 2012 21:08:46 +0200 X-Authenticated: #3333826 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/wtVtoNfXwKYvWg0ziLKCjq+MnuaAwxS8EZuNINQ gUJ48UtjGVqXgW Message-ID: <50562391.8010002@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 21:08:01 +0200 From: Lokadamus User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Rees References: <201209160923.q8G9N3oJ085587@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Cc: Yuri , "Julian H. Stacey" , Benjamin Kaduk , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why fdisk can't open root disk with MBR for writing? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 19:08:48 -0000 Am 16.09.2012 11:41, schrieb Chris Rees: > On 16 September 2012 10:23, Julian H. Stacey wrote: >> This is a resend as Benjamin Kaduk >> dropped the >> Yuri >> from CC line, & Yuri was the original first poster in thread who >> my patch would presumably have helped. >> >> Reference: >>> From: Benjamin Kaduk >>> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 14:49:41 -0400 (EDT) >>> Message-id: >> Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >>> On Sat, 15 Sep 2012, Julian H. Stacey wrote: >>> >>>> I have been applying this diff to my man fdisk: >>>> >>>> http://berklix.com/~jhs/src/bsd/fixes/FreeBSD/src/gen/sbin/fdisk/ >>>> >>>> *** 8.0-RELEASE/src/sbin/fdisk/fdisk.8 Sat Mar 14 22:32:16 2009 >>>> --- new-generic/src/sbin/fdisk/fdisk.8 Sat Mar 14 22:35:10 2009 >>>> *************** >>>> *** 462,464 **** >>>> --- 462,468 ---- >>>> The >>>> .Xr bsdlabel 8 >>>> command must be used for this. >>>> + .Pp >>>> + When running multi user, you cannot write unless you first run this: >>>> + .br >>>> + sysctl kern.geom.debugflags=16 >>>> >>>> I never submitted it as a send-pr, >>>> anyone think I should submit it to help save people ? >>> We have had a long discussion about kern.geom.debugflags starting here: >>> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2011-October/028090.html >>> My understanding from that discussion is that your patch should not be >>> accepted. >> Got to travel now, will read that thread later, >> >> A shame if we would leave fdisk crippled undocumented, when so easy >> to doc. the solution. Fdisk is known across many OSs Unix & beyond, >> our BSD tools may be better nicer, but fdisk it what many will first >> reach for, >> a shame not to help newer people & visitors used to fdisk. >> We inside FreeBSD crippled fdisk by adding these flags. Outsiders >> wont expect the weirdness & get impression FreeBSD has a bug. > I think you have a point, but at the moment fdisk really doesn't work > properly at all; I find so many people complaining on IRC about "Why > doesn't fdisk work?" > > To be honest, I'd be happy with replacing fdisk with a huge warning > "USE GPART!!"; fdisk isn't really standard anyway. > > The alternative of course is to fix fdisk... *properly*. > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > FreeBSD 9.1RC1 have a live-cd option and with this, fdisk work fine. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 00:26:47 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 373B01065670 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 00:26:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ayoung@mosaicarchive.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E98EA8FC1C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 00:26:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so10432495obb.13 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 17:26:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-originating-ip:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=/XxLJecRt0lfZ/A/EC/kIFMVOF477uxJD783xLvyKrY=; b=MfjGgGJrNARUhvrZzwRlLqjfsavcMJAOdgn/kVi6DvSmRdpHvJkVATkTcV8fiwvdnA OcFY9X/j1D8mOtLqv4j9UY+b12cFM6gAtsOgSn2O/ET8BgSJlyrFUcaQrrKjlW2nnUfn uZ+9yulSebp5GN8p2AeLE8pZHpOdU7rvln274QTlNkwjWC2PpMZ/JZnJ8n2Yc/tSTOOD qAMrPxFokbNqnjlcj0RApt9Oc/REzzj7n8yTIYnTsJMqy43rJzOR3IEVGcE2VrDLoQiP 9etHGsWSfR6PxiVpwJpYyN+Kcr3Rh/FxDNo5Ww0OCcsBlnxEaRuQbC7VJ93MxI50UUVu T3QA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.13.226 with SMTP id k2mr10031151oec.14.1347841606131; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 17:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.10.72 with HTTP; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 17:26:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [96.237.242.243] Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 20:26:46 -0400 Message-ID: From: Andy Young To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkYR71EUwpuMYGcWQ1LAwLkiA15Ar1MBkFyYNH0yig83B1OUlkfoPSL2lwGn7Gfh7A745c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Dispersed storage solutions? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 00:26:47 -0000 I recently came across a number of really interesting research papers about using erasure coding techniques to store data redundantly across a number of machines. This was pretty exciting for me because I have been looking for this kind of technology for a while. Simply replicating our data is way too expensive for us. I found a number of commercial products that provide this type of solution but they are too expensive for our business model. So ... has anyone used this kind of technology with FreeBSD before? If there isn't an existing project out there, is there enough interest to start one? This paper gives a solid overview of the technology http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~dimakis/RC_Journal.pdf Andy From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 16 19:12:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87CE106566C for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 19:12:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anton@hesiod.org) Received: from styx.hesiod.org (jaanton-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:d1::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFCD98FC0C for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 19:12:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from atlas.hesiod.org (atlas.hesiod.org [192.168.1.9]) (authenticated bits=0) by styx.hesiod.org (8.14.5/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8GJCffp032873 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2012 12:12:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anton@hesiod.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=hesiod.org; s=Sep12; t=1347822762; bh=GOCrI4MNH14CX1autrnklXJEOTdI7aTdbDq37OVMDn8=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=ZSFW3tLV5UdsjJ8SeKuV2wdPoT+sRqXc9tkTLnHh0Yfhy+4AungcOsgWE74ouq9Cv wWKu2xVDkGfgObCIPa6dokkZwLl/Seykqz+rBQKnQUg2GpNaEw++w4smcKh0mu5IuW rQwljDSY2563wj7iZNyjnEkv6DvICMqQPHdyPpQw= Message-ID: <505624A9.7040508@hesiod.org> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 12:12:41 -0700 From: Jeff Anton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120901 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20120916120041.391C41065680@hub.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <20120916120041.391C41065680@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 05:29:36 +0000 Subject: gpart is junk X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 19:12:43 -0000 fdisk may be old, but it's a better utility. Better documented, still referenced in the FreeBSD handbook... http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/install-steps.html The fdisk -p and fdisk -f are vital functionality which are only reluctantly recognized with the backup and restore commands which didn't exist in the initial versions (read 7.4). This is how the utility should have been thought about in the first place. All partitioning work I do isn't one partition at a time, its about how everything fits together. Consider from the 8.3 gpart man page the example: ============= Create an MBR scheme on ada0, then create a 30GB-sized FreeBSD slice, mark it active and install the boot0 boot manager: /sbin/gpart create -s MBR ada0 /sbin/gpart add -t freebsd -s 30G ada0 /sbin/gpart set -a active -i 1 ada0 /sbin/gpart bootcode -b /boot/boot0 ada0 Now create a BSD scheme (BSD label) with space for up to 20 partitions: /sbin/gpart create -s BSD -n 20 ada0s1 Create a 1GB-sized UFS partition and a 4GB-sized swap partition: /sbin/gpart add -t freebsd-ufs -s 1G ada0s1 /sbin/gpart add -t freebsd-swap -s 4G ada0s1 Install bootstrap code for the BSD label: /sbin/gpart bootcode -b /boot/boot ada0s1 ============== That all this work is broken down into eight different commands with all these options is very bad design. I'll admit this is doing more that just what fdisk does, but my point is that all this information needs to be together in one human and machine readable form. We need to be able to look at the whole picture of a device and say "that makes sense" then do it. And this shouldn't be from some GUI junk either. In a file, this information can be kept as a reference, as a confirmation that partitioning hasn't changed unexpectedly, and modified if needed in a clear manner. fdisk configuration files are very will documented and have no equivalent that I can tell from gpart. Certainly there is no documentation that I've found about gpart which makes clear how I can edit a description of a partition scheme the way fdisk configuration files work. The gpart backup/restore file format is not documented. Also, when you do get problems, what does the kernel report... Maybe: GEOM: ad0s1: geometry does not match label (255h,63s != 1h,63s). Does this say "gpart"? No. Does this say partition? No. What clues are there about how to fix this? In the 7.4 geom man page there was no reference to gpart. I still have 7.4 machines and the badness of geom is everywhere... atlas.hesiod.org:root[30]: geom disk list Geom name: ad0 Providers: 1. Name: ad0 Mediasize: 250059350016 (233G) Sectorsize: 512 Mode: r2w2e3 fwsectors: 63 fwheads: 16 Geom name: ad1 Providers: 1. Name: ad1 Mediasize: 500107862016 (466G) Sectorsize: 512 Mode: r1w1e3 fwsectors: 63 fwheads: 16 atlas.hesiod.org:root[32]: gpart show ad0 gpart: No such geom: ad0. WTF!? the disk list shows ad0 but the partition says whoa no such beast. The whole geom system may be very important and may be the way to move forward. But if it is so important, it's important to bring forward all the important functionality that we know from the past, i.e. fdisk and bsdlabel or their real useful equivalents well documented. Jeff Anton From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 05:59:26 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3EB106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 05:59:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bu7cher@yandex.ru) Received: from forward4.mail.yandex.net (forward4.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:602::4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D31788FC0A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 05:59:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp3.mail.yandex.net (smtp3.mail.yandex.net [77.88.46.103]) by forward4.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 580FD1BC108F; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:59:24 +0400 (MSK) Received: from smtp3.mail.yandex.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 308981BA0832; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:59:24 +0400 (MSK) Received: from mail.kirov.so-ups.ru (mail.kirov.so-ups.ru [178.74.170.1]) by smtp3.mail.yandex.net (nwsmtp/Yandex) with ESMTP id xNMeTqF3-xNMSrhcm; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:59:23 +0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1347861564; bh=F5I8Xa5uCdxo+JEVSJYPZGy3OVME8v4VqwrtdFlEfHc=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject: References:In-Reply-To:X-Enigmail-Version:Content-Type; b=pNq+fX9digGfbZDhIRMxgv9z6wrE8Ngj5NyX3CErDfAA8UpPWPEfPuPhzcu51BcxC B6azT5rLeB34pHyN+1iW2jm+HYURnBKalvRpKDvSFpt5TnJtc8NbuTUshuCd03Kj64 DHO5LIYF+PbyYGwQ+VaEi0nz4sqgrMgN7ATf1+JY= Message-ID: <5056BC36.1090402@yandex.ru> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:59:18 +0400 From: "Andrey V. Elsukov" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.5 (FreeBSD/20051231) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Anton References: <20120916120041.391C41065680@hub.freebsd.org> <505624A9.7040508@hesiod.org> In-Reply-To: <505624A9.7040508@hesiod.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigAAA1C66CA52AFD940F8C38FA" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gpart is junk X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 05:59:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigAAA1C66CA52AFD940F8C38FA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 16.09.2012 23:12, Jeff Anton wrote: > The whole geom system may be very important and may be the way to move = forward. But if it is so > important, it's important to bring forward all the important functional= ity that we know from the > past, i.e. fdisk and bsdlabel or their real useful equivalents well doc= umented. Hi, Jeff. Sometimes to move forward you need to learn something new and not just ty= ping familiar old commands. * There are several different GEOM classes in use in the 7.x and 8.0+. GE= OM_PART class is the default beginning from 8.0, in the previous FreeBSD versions another geom= classes used. * gpart(8) utility works with GEOM objects of class GEOM_PART. If there i= s no objects - no one to work with. * You need to read gpart(8) about -f flag and commit/undo/show commands. --=20 WBR, Andrey V. Elsukov --------------enigAAA1C66CA52AFD940F8C38FA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) iQEbBAEBAgAGBQJQVrw7AAoJEAHF6gQQyKF6t34H+MY0kIDzO67+LV0gSIgWb3Fh qgioJYgTcc0YXCtrOxNhJkzLdo8JFdqmEIRIh7vjJsSy+6iuJOrMPLUG4GywDJNa Gl165vT/4d2Vw8Cyc74Ljsrrg0DcVOxaEeJ5IIkzy1XWZPmu4N8vHUvKSvPZfzCu uFJC2J84EL1Pnkrm+5UDHG3pKm2DG0JCoaQ+HHqsd1CwS7aoRMph4nDKOf5ycMxU YRLlvM7FdswNPt8I+BE7gEblJnwR58Fht61IAhFArlAEexGfOeuIGZP5K8uHdsIn PAMnKV2nz0JzTbQG2ux8JvHlP0yfG9yeonJJ+rH0XfoMFNzlOzcj9kw94/J/MQ== =N/Jw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigAAA1C66CA52AFD940F8C38FA-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 09:44:45 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F73106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:44:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-vb0-f54.google.com (mail-vb0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E48028FC15 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:44:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vbmv11 with SMTP id v11so1765165vbm.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 02:44:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3B+5VdCCFpgRoQA/3xJboXvFxr48niFeP2drCzDLF6c=; b=BGVKQ9+0FyKddFMuhtulCw9fzKoyuMnfwwrDY6zlhsc9Y26aUXQa/rAzJsXX77hZEo h07GZvEztcCSZkSrAFxCb1xjKIlFpTEO9MYC+rp3S7QNlZnAyO6+dLIxoSUbkJs8twu5 piLSpxEFgxkAMNe0YaUvXw6xI70n2UB0Ln8MqU4SD1AyrEhUO2DLqXD81I9d2tihg1jb eLB2+ng0w5dG9PxUFXEVMu8FPtkYSUPflFb/o5YHnySukyIe1YOtNWmZdmS16dCKYXD2 nEg0w/qmS6Re4lh2/JEcnyDLkL3fJ9vfk6IAnv4iZzkd0OYmYoQb6ZyK3qnABwVMBZBr KEaA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.107.146 with SMTP id b18mr7022540vcp.48.1347875083964; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 02:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.228.1 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 02:44:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <505624A9.7040508@hesiod.org> References: <20120916120041.391C41065680@hub.freebsd.org> <505624A9.7040508@hesiod.org> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:44:43 +0100 Message-ID: From: Tom Evans To: Jeff Anton Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gpart is junk X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:44:45 -0000 On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Jeff Anton wrote: >=E2=80=A6 my point is that all this information needs to be > together in one human and machine readable form. We need to be able to l= ook > at the whole picture of a device and say "that makes sense" then do it. = And > this shouldn't be from some GUI junk either. > In a file, this information can be kept as a reference, as a confirmation > that partitioning hasn't changed unexpectedly, and > modified if needed in a clear manner. > (Sorry to pick at just parts of your email=E2=80=A6) The current GEOM configuration is available from a sysctl in machine readable format - check out kern.geom.confxml. If you are concerned about your partitions changing underneath you, storing and then comparing output from this sysctl gives you a simple way to determine what. A human readable version can be obtained from the gpart tool. IMHO, gpart and GEOM are fantastic. gpart is a much simpler tool to use than fdisk, and fully understands every kind of disk partitioning you can throw at it, whilst fdisk is only a tool for playing with MBR. The gpart man page explains clearly and concisely how to use it. GEOM provides a clear framework that anything can plug in to, from labels to whole disk encryption. Cheers Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 10:33:30 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D36106566C; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:33:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032B98FC0A; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:33:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p57BCFB12.dip.t-dialin.net [87.188.251.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q8HAXKYw061207; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:33:21 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q8HAX9WS028091; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:33:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8HAWVMe039745; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:32:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <201209171032.q8HAWVMe039745@fire.js.berklix.net> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Sun, 16 Sep 2012 10:41:49 BST." Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:32:31 +0200 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: Chris Rees , Yuri , Benjamin Kaduk Subject: Re: Why fdisk can't open root disk with MBR for writing? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:33:30 -0000 Chris Rees wrote: > On 16 September 2012 10:23, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > This is a resend as Benjamin Kaduk > > dropped the > > Yuri > > from CC line, & Yuri was the original first poster in thread who > > my patch would presumably have helped. > > > > Reference: > >> From: Benjamin Kaduk > >> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 14:49:41 -0400 (EDT) > >> Message-id: > > > > Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > >> On Sat, 15 Sep 2012, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > >> > >> > I have been applying this diff to my man fdisk: > >> > > >> > http://berklix.com/~jhs/src/bsd/fixes/FreeBSD/src/gen/sbin/fdisk/ > >> > > >> > *** 8.0-RELEASE/src/sbin/fdisk/fdisk.8 Sat Mar 14 22:32:16 2009 > >> > --- new-generic/src/sbin/fdisk/fdisk.8 Sat Mar 14 22:35:10 2009 > >> > *************** > >> > *** 462,464 **** > >> > --- 462,468 ---- > >> > The > >> > .Xr bsdlabel 8 > >> > command must be used for this. > >> > + .Pp > >> > + When running multi user, you cannot write unless you first run this: > >> > + .br > >> > + sysctl kern.geom.debugflags=16 > >> > > >> > I never submitted it as a send-pr, > >> > anyone think I should submit it to help save people ? > >> > >> We have had a long discussion about kern.geom.debugflags starting here: > >> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2011-October/028090.html > >> My understanding from that discussion is that your patch should not be > >> accepted. > > > > Got to travel now, will read that thread later, > > > > A shame if we would leave fdisk crippled undocumented, when so easy > > to doc. the solution. Fdisk is known across many OSs Unix & beyond, > > our BSD tools may be better nicer, but fdisk it what many will first > > reach for, > > a shame not to help newer people & visitors used to fdisk. > > We inside FreeBSD crippled fdisk by adding these flags. Outsiders > > wont expect the weirdness & get impression FreeBSD has a bug. > > I think you have a point, but at the moment fdisk really doesn't work > properly at all; I find so many people complaining on IRC about "Why > doesn't fdisk work?" Long ago I used to have a lot of failures from fdisk, till some kind soul on a mail list rescued me with sysctl kern.geom.debugflags=16 One can but speculate how many others could be saved if we add a note to man fdisk (or as below per Chris, better fix the source). We should also add to 'man fdisk' SEE ALSO gpart(1) Adding both would rescue maximal people & point the way ahead. > To be honest, I'd be happy with replacing fdisk with a huge warning > "USE GPART!!"; fdisk isn't really standard anyway. For visitors from other Unixes, they'll look for fdisk. (I've never bothered moving to geom / gpart myself, fdisk works fine for me with debugflags=16) > The alternative of course is to fix fdisk... *properly*. Yes, better than adding to manual to document the bug, would be to fix src/ (IMO should have been done way back by those who introduced the bit in kern.geom.debugflags that broke fdisk). I'd be tempted to do it myself but must travel soon. Maybe someone fancies hacking the src/ ? Till src is patched, a tiny patch to manual would serve as a better than nothing rescue / reminder to rescue those stuck. >From Lokadamus > FreeBSD 9.1RC1 have a live-cd option and with this, fdisk work fine. Ah yes, that reminds me Ive also seen Fdisk work OK single user. (Single user awkward though when running a server or ssh/rlogin to a headless host) Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with "> ". Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 11:57:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE9D1065670 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:57:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41DD8FC15 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:57:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8HBZ2Yf039368; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:35:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q8HBZ2Pa039365; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:35:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:35:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Tom Evans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20120916120041.391C41065680@hub.freebsd.org> <505624A9.7040508@hesiod.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:35:03 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Jeff Anton , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gpart is junk X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:57:31 -0000 > IMHO, gpart and GEOM are fantastic. anyway it is MUCH easier and faster to edit disklabels with bsdlabel -e than with gpart. Unfortunately since some time bsdlabel cannot edit labels if ANY of partitions are open. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 12:02:03 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6328B106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:02:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bk0-f54.google.com (mail-bk0-f54.google.com [209.85.214.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88F38FC0A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:02:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bkcje9 with SMTP id je9so2268315bkc.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 05:02:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=MxolGl/k9Rr3Amy9KxURmR1ACjxFOTLtAPMhVbS6UZ4=; b=Y/xTOrVRJKFxnginp0HmNcyM8KehPJtfgADuy3jKUSfLtHEaMl9cCMzNrr3Om+ocLD Ev+0cNZFKWPfZTt3EwO9vL1YQtifeIWGWv+fG9dJv4rvjlvL2q6/aEEeDSYT+BknNvgr P85sXl7VMC7nKVnKoBo9+5NPbVmjEOyTJwF1arCd42lCf9I0mAltulv7fNgM3p5lARbc 21eOd6ga3yOkq3x1RU0OSgMEaZ9a1nZqqqg+3Jms6QI+f00RscY8o3bg+WsiLJ5om7Cm KOGpyfqgZh6hHvG3jQx0tfJLFFqJh2PYfcvu091YadvrQV8IG1Ycv/FKa1EQHE7rbkPZ l9Zg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.152.27 with SMTP id e27mr4178949bkw.56.1347883321842; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 05:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.10.141 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 05:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.10.141 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 05:02:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20120916120041.391C41065680@hub.freebsd.org> <505624A9.7040508@hesiod.org> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:02:01 +0100 Message-ID: From: Chris Rees To: Wojciech Puchar Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Tom Evans , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Jeff Anton Subject: Re: gpart is junk X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:02:03 -0000 On 17 Sep 2012 12:58, "Wojciech Puchar" wrote: >> >> IMHO, gpart and GEOM are fantastic. > > > anyway it is MUCH easier and faster to edit disklabels with bsdlabel -e than with gpart. > > Unfortunately since some time bsdlabel cannot edit labels if ANY of partitions are open. You may be more familiar with manually editing slice tables, but it is very easy to mess up. Chris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 12:54:48 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B22106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:54:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.netplex.net (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A90DD8FC24 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:54:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sea.ntplx.net (sea.ntplx.net [204.213.176.11]) by mail.netplex.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id q8HCsfdD060324; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:54:41 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.netplex.net) X-Greylist: Message whitelisted by DRAC access database, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.10]); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:54:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:54:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen X-X-Sender: eischen@sea.ntplx.net To: Tom Evans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20120916120041.391C41065680@hub.freebsd.org> <505624A9.7040508@hesiod.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-559023410-1804928587-1347886481=:17927" Cc: Jeff Anton , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gpart is junk X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Daniel Eischen List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:54:48 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---559023410-1804928587-1347886481=:17927 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Mon, 17 Sep 2012, Tom Evans wrote: > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Jeff Anton wrote: >> =E2=80=A6 my point is that all this information needs to be >> together in one human and machine readable form. We need to be able to = look >> at the whole picture of a device and say "that makes sense" then do it. = And >> this shouldn't be from some GUI junk either. >> In a file, this information can be kept as a reference, as a confirmatio= n >> that partitioning hasn't changed unexpectedly, and >> modified if needed in a clear manner. >> > > (Sorry to pick at just parts of your email=E2=80=A6) > > The current GEOM configuration is available from a sysctl in machine > readable format - check out kern.geom.confxml. If you are concerned > about your partitions changing underneath you, storing and then > comparing output from this sysctl gives you a simple way to determine > what. > > A human readable version can be obtained from the gpart tool. > > IMHO, gpart and GEOM are fantastic. gpart is a much simpler tool to > use than fdisk, and fully understands every kind of disk partitioning > you can throw at it, whilst fdisk is only a tool for playing with MBR. > The gpart man page explains clearly and concisely how to use it. > > GEOM provides a clear framework that anything can plug in to, from > labels to whole disk encryption. It is not simple. All I want is Solaris format utility (partition and label). --=20 DE ---559023410-1804928587-1347886481=:17927-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 15:13:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9882C106564A; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:13:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ECC98FC08; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:13:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from jhbbsd.localnet (unknown [209.249.190.124]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DB83AB911; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:13:58 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:15:11 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (FreeBSD/8.2-CBSD-20110714-p17; KDE/4.5.5; amd64; ; ) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201209170815.11113.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, Vijay Singh Subject: Re: vm info from a hung system X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:13:59 -0000 On Friday, September 14, 2012 1:32:43 am Vijay Singh wrote: > Need some expert help. I have a system that is hung hard, and I was > able to get it into gdb. From show_vmstat I see: > > (kgdb-amd64-7.4-95) show_vmstat > SYSTEM MEMORY INFORMATION: > mem_wire: 285970432 ( 272MB) Wired: disabled for paging out > mem_active: + 400105472 ( 381MB) Active: recently referenced > mem_inactive:+ 56840192 ( 54MB) Inactive: recently not referenced > mem_cache: + 0 ( 0MB) Cached: almost avail. for allocation > mem_free: + 0 ( 0MB) Free: fully available for allocation > mem_gap_vm: + 753664 ( 0MB) Memory gap: vm > -------------- ------------ ----------- ------ > mem_all: = 743669760 ( 709MB) Total real memory managed > mem_gap_sys: + 22765568 ( 21MB) Memory gap: system > -------------- ------------ ----------- > mem_phys: = 766435328 ( 730MB) Total phys memory > -------------- ------------ ----------- > > SYSTEM MEMORY SUMMARY: > mem_used: 709595136 ( 676MB) Used memory > mem_avail: + 56840192 ( 54MB) Available memory > -------------- ------------ ----------- ------ > mem_total: = 766435328 ( 730MB) Total memory > > What is this telling me? Oof. I think we generally don't cope with not having any free memory at all (mem_cache + mem_free). That is, I imagine the system was unable to make forward progress, possibly it had to malloc() something (GEOM is terrible for doing this) while trying to page out something to free up space. I would look at the state of the pagedaemon kthread to see why it isn't able to run. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 15:13:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9882C106564A; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:13:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ECC98FC08; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:13:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from jhbbsd.localnet (unknown [209.249.190.124]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DB83AB911; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:13:58 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:15:11 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (FreeBSD/8.2-CBSD-20110714-p17; KDE/4.5.5; amd64; ; ) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201209170815.11113.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, Vijay Singh Subject: Re: vm info from a hung system X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:13:59 -0000 On Friday, September 14, 2012 1:32:43 am Vijay Singh wrote: > Need some expert help. I have a system that is hung hard, and I was > able to get it into gdb. From show_vmstat I see: > > (kgdb-amd64-7.4-95) show_vmstat > SYSTEM MEMORY INFORMATION: > mem_wire: 285970432 ( 272MB) Wired: disabled for paging out > mem_active: + 400105472 ( 381MB) Active: recently referenced > mem_inactive:+ 56840192 ( 54MB) Inactive: recently not referenced > mem_cache: + 0 ( 0MB) Cached: almost avail. for allocation > mem_free: + 0 ( 0MB) Free: fully available for allocation > mem_gap_vm: + 753664 ( 0MB) Memory gap: vm > -------------- ------------ ----------- ------ > mem_all: = 743669760 ( 709MB) Total real memory managed > mem_gap_sys: + 22765568 ( 21MB) Memory gap: system > -------------- ------------ ----------- > mem_phys: = 766435328 ( 730MB) Total phys memory > -------------- ------------ ----------- > > SYSTEM MEMORY SUMMARY: > mem_used: 709595136 ( 676MB) Used memory > mem_avail: + 56840192 ( 54MB) Available memory > -------------- ------------ ----------- ------ > mem_total: = 766435328 ( 730MB) Total memory > > What is this telling me? Oof. I think we generally don't cope with not having any free memory at all (mem_cache + mem_free). That is, I imagine the system was unable to make forward progress, possibly it had to malloc() something (GEOM is terrible for doing this) while trying to page out something to free up space. I would look at the state of the pagedaemon kthread to see why it isn't able to run. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 15:40:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39CF21065674 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:40:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miciamail@hotmail.it) Received: from blu0-omc2-s18.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc2-s18.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.93]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB9308FC1D for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:40:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BLU0-SMTP51 ([65.55.111.71]) by blu0-omc2-s18.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:39:32 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [78.13.110.33] X-EIP: [Vkf8500p1p3rrwKcnLoJpTLi5/mLfqDM] X-Originating-Email: [miciamail@hotmail.it] Message-ID: Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([78.13.110.33]) by BLU0-SMTP51.blu0.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:39:30 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:35:40 +0200 From: Lorenzo Cogotti User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120729 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Sep 2012 15:39:31.0239 (UTC) FILETIME=[A142F370:01CD94EA] Subject: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:40:39 -0000 Hi, I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official supported graphical environment. Currently FreeBSD doesn't provide any standard desktop environment, this means that, in a way much similar to Linux, a developer cannot know in advance which GUI will be available on the system. This leads to another problem, again much similar to Linux, tools are usually provided in a text based fashion only, because that's the only sure and reliable way a tool can work in a relatively dependency free and independent way. As another effect, many utilities and graphical tools are provided for a toolkit, but not for another, needlessly duplicating efforts and applications, achieving barely half the result. Though, in a different way than Linux, FreeBSD doesn't get much support from developers in this regard, mainly because development focuses over Linux rather than FreeBSD, which remains known only as a good and reliable server platform, many technologies remain relatively unknown and doesn't get attention from developers, like devd vs udev, and other solutions that FreeBSD provides since a very long time. The idea would be choosing a default desktop environment and providing it as the official supported way to develop GUI applications on FreeBSD, thus tools provided on FreeBSD would be able to get official GUIs and supported graphical tools in a standard and non-redundant fashion, like a GUI for tools like pkgng, geli(8), gpart(8). This choice would also be motivated by the fact that often technologies move toward Linux support, like GNOME3, dbus and consolekit, without taking into account BSD. In this regard CDE[1] is could be an interesting choice, since it was a diffuse and reliable UNIX environment, and it is lightweight, relatively Linux-like dependencies free solution, which could be updated to today standards and extended to support FreeBSD features. CDE was just recently released with open source license[2] and some effort is being made to support FreeBSD. Of course CDE isn't the only possibility, the idea is "desktop environment agnostic", also I don't mean that FreeBSD shouldn't work with other environments, which could still be installed and used as long as they support the platform properly. I don't mean forcing a graphical environment over installed FreeBSD systems either, which could be unwanted for server installations. [1] http://sourceforge.net/p/cdesktopenv/wiki/Home/ [2] https://sourceforge.net/p/cdesktopenv/code/ci/978aff3dc9c7d009423a3d7fd0624d12f9df0734/tree/cde/COPYING?format=raw I see this as an interesting opportunity to let FreeBSD gain more visibility in the desktop field, would this idea be useful and worth implementing? Thanks, -- Lorenzo Cogotti From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 15:42:52 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F67D1065672 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:42:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6D88FC17 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:42:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A0C3B753; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:42:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8HFginM062955; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:42:44 GMT (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: Lorenzo Cogotti From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:35:40 +0200." Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:42:44 +0000 Message-ID: <62954.1347896564@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:00:27 +0000 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:42:52 -0000 In message , Lorenzo Cogotti writ es: >Hi, >I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official >supported graphical environment. We already do: It's called "X11" :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 16:00:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 108CD106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:00:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lichray@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ie0-f182.google.com (mail-ie0-f182.google.com [209.85.223.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB0E98FC08 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:00:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iea17 with SMTP id 17so7218789iea.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:00:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=gvU8PbxTaEiRNNF/HvWST1i+6hwZaaR8grQ5h7DZoxU=; b=F9fAZ8Fb6ZGuMBaeOy+NfIJXJcS79NRzxGFFNknr9S61k/jgr8lPt76j9vkLNj+EiX THn142fKEc0T36cAhQ3kB3aQcw8QCbz1nn+gYHJpJDKoabUSo+2zgtm48NVZQj7RzdKF z+EDaA8SN0F+M8gcCKGoCd3oKHl7oUvgM65/uetlNP7vaRLmhIqpvNN66fRILcxwMLiu jFkIYPaDxP/e2GYFyTvr+QATB1arjKGUtT1XZR63RQWsrUmcUWZcgOmhIzvDDQWdc/wp FaEQ/Y7uuWvHMjUjAugy5lDsxhnYhW3XoTxBCxMdxVZPA+oIw8kP1uQeUq7YFpaxBcfx mwhQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.43.7.132 with SMTP id oo4mr9339620icb.6.1347897621460; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.127.76 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:00:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:00:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Zhihao Yuan To: Lorenzo Cogotti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:00:28 -0000 On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Lorenzo Cogotti wrote: > Hi, > I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official > supported graphical environment. > > Currently FreeBSD doesn't provide any standard desktop environment, this > means that, in a way much similar to Linux, a developer cannot know in > advance which GUI will be available on the system. This leads to another > problem, again much similar to Linux, tools are usually provided in a > text based fashion only, because that's the only sure and reliable way a > tool can work in a relatively dependency free and independent way. As > another effect, many utilities and graphical tools are provided for a > toolkit, but not for another, needlessly duplicating efforts and > applications, achieving barely half the result. > > Though, in a different way than Linux, FreeBSD doesn't get much support > from developers in this regard, mainly because development focuses over > Linux rather than FreeBSD, which remains known only as a good and > reliable server platform, many technologies remain relatively unknown > and doesn't get attention from developers, like devd vs udev, and other > solutions that FreeBSD provides since a very long time. > > The idea would be choosing a default desktop environment and providing > it as the official supported way to develop GUI applications on FreeBSD, > thus tools provided on FreeBSD would be able to get official GUIs and > supported graphical tools in a standard and non-redundant fashion, like > a GUI for tools like pkgng, geli(8), gpart(8). This choice would also be > motivated by the fact that often technologies move toward Linux support, > like GNOME3, dbus and consolekit, without taking into account BSD. > > In this regard CDE[1] is could be an interesting choice, since it was a > diffuse and reliable UNIX environment, and it is lightweight, relatively > Linux-like dependencies free solution, which could be updated to today > standards and extended to support FreeBSD features. > CDE was just recently released with open source license[2] and some > effort is being made to support FreeBSD. > > Of course CDE isn't the only possibility, the idea is "desktop > environment agnostic", also I don't mean that FreeBSD shouldn't work > with other environments, which could still be installed and used as long > as they support the platform properly. I don't mean forcing a graphical > environment over installed FreeBSD systems either, which could be > unwanted for server installations. > > [1] http://sourceforge.net/p/cdesktopenv/wiki/Home/ > [2] > https://sourceforge.net/p/cdesktopenv/code/ci/978aff3dc9c7d009423a3d7fd0624d12f9df0734/tree/cde/COPYING?format=raw > > I see this as an interesting opportunity to let FreeBSD gain more > visibility in the desktop field, would this idea be useful and worth > implementing? > > Thanks, > > -- > Lorenzo Cogotti > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" I definitely agree with this. Sun has a book, "UNIX Essentials featuring the Solaris...", and GUI takes a big part in the book. A default GUI is essential to a modern UNIX. FreeBSD can no longer regard GUI as a third-party bonus. -- Zhihao Yuan, nickname lichray The best way to predict the future is to invent it. ___________________________________________________ 4BSD -- http://4bsd.biz/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 16:07:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF09E1065670 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:07:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lichray@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 968D98FC16 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:07:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iayy25 with SMTP id y25so6897751iay.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:07:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=JMnhcadb99OyCdmFLCb/jK7V8O074aG/MyN6ULwnTXM=; b=sXwQGDpoAD5SdYk2sSApCzRMr1F5rTAxxHBuN+6KQ8tw0c4do5kzbi1P2OuqrJrygT 8ryiJgauOHgxXJqqNDm7EM9s9H7dDwpqEy/E3s3xsqo1a20MA6euCkehXcLFHSO3MfMG icNqTWT2Ol6s9Rx0Gp7YYR/6UEDac5cylFzqMpKgBcvcIE3yJTPVmTlYycQTr0pG7GOo 4UKnjs9JEu8N18297GQ0UrmNvL+4Oh2fTrOcuY4tf6UKdvJqc8Ro3RwSljZaUu3Akegv BXBfr9H/LoHza4RCuDU6LDPCC100KNB1GIg8EultgO38VYYe6+4DW92/Y6YD3NkBYqH8 5bdQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.155.129 with SMTP id vw1mr7352807igb.11.1347898020671; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.127.76 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:07:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <62954.1347896564@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <62954.1347896564@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:07:00 -0500 Message-ID: From: Zhihao Yuan To: Poul-Henning Kamp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Lorenzo Cogotti Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:07:01 -0000 On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message , Lorenzo Cogotti writ > es: >>Hi, >>I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official >>supported graphical environment. > > We already do: It's called "X11" :-) How about Wikipedia "graphical environment" before u say this? > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Zhihao Yuan, nickname lichray The best way to predict the future is to invent it. ___________________________________________________ 4BSD -- http://4bsd.biz/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 16:18:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 902C6106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:18:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miciamail@hotmail.it) Received: from blu0-omc2-s20.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc2-s20.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.95]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54B0B8FC08 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:18:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BLU0-SMTP263 ([65.55.111.72]) by blu0-omc2-s20.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:18:49 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [78.13.110.33] X-EIP: [GERMZBMU+pSChh0kol37tz3G7biiQMw8] X-Originating-Email: [miciamail@hotmail.it] Message-ID: Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([78.13.110.33]) by BLU0-SMTP263.blu0.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:18:48 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:14:57 +0200 From: Lorenzo Cogotti User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120729 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <62954.1347896564@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <62954.1347896564@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Sep 2012 16:18:48.0412 (UTC) FILETIME=[1E3F01C0:01CD94F0] Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:18:55 -0000 Il 17/09/2012 17:42, Poul-Henning Kamp ha scritto: > In message , Lorenzo Cogotti writ > es: >> Hi, >> I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official >> supported graphical environment. > We already do: It's called "X11" :-) > (sending back to mailing list due to a mistake replying personally, I apologize) That's surely more of a standard than Linux can provide, considering Wayland :-) I meant something more abstract that could provide a default desktop feel and the possibility of writing more complex GUI interfaces in less time, so that, for example, I could create a GUI tool while being consistent with the rest of the environment. Right now this can't be achieved (in an easy way) without taking into account Qt, GTK+, X and an enormous number of other toolkits available. > In message , Lorenzo Cogotti writ > es: > >> Right now this can't be achieved (in an easy way) without taking into >> account Qt, GTK+, X and an enormous number of other toolkits available. > Do what everybody else does: Pick the toolkit you prefer to work in > and move on... This idea would precisely serve the purpose of removing this need and eliminate redundancy of toolkits, when it comes to essential utilities that FreeBSD would want to provide, like devices automounting, partitioning (taking advantage of the system features) and so on... but it's just an idea, of course. -- Lorenzo Cogotti From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 16:20:49 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08659106566C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:20:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@freebsd.org) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C568FC21 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:20:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32853B754; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:20:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8HGKlRR063171; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:20:47 GMT (envelope-from phk@freebsd.org) To: Zhihao Yuan From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:07:00 EST." Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:20:47 +0000 Message-ID: <63170.1347898847@critter.freebsd.dk> Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Lorenzo Cogotti Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:20:49 -0000 In message , Zhihao Yuan writes: >On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> In message , Lorenzo Cogotti writ >> es: >>>Hi, >>>I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official >>>supported graphical environment. >> >> We already do: It's called "X11" :-) > >How about Wikipedia "graphical environment" before u say this? How about you try to install ports/x11-vm/twm, turn your CPU speed down to 20 MHz and get a good feel for how a graphical environment felt 25 years ago, before you make a fool of yourself ? :-) There is no way that FreeBSD is going to annoint a canonical window manager (look that up too!), we've been down that road before and the landscape is ugly and filled with bikesheds. My suggest was 100% serious: Assume X11 _is_ the graphical environment, pick a toolkit which is written to work with any window manager, which all good toolkits are, and move on. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 16:20:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BBF1065677 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:20:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-vc0-f182.google.com (mail-vc0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A88358FC23 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:20:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vcbfw7 with SMTP id fw7so9711850vcb.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:20:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=e75zjUKr8gElr2hxdMYyoG2nKDVvKTDzHehezwZA71A=; b=AQkAkw4UsFw8PBdJChxjNi8/10H0GlaCRcZzQsLn2GjnvpNhNYda9eYjWXgVVufC7+ hj8+zMU8EWtCEdp1PbmYLcIS2ZebOzCPCLNtqSUrsRRJh1HgGANJlQVriG9HsdiSuewz WmWUEyiuzzacb8DtIvQgpCSDmWOyhfyPmVDILYaOpPfrgfR6uypDoeBr6YBlXpdooWPb OWlbZxg1duiSGCs4MdVBcjgXT4MPm1sKQmCtQeyPEteQQNur7ChsWe2wu6Te6y4KgJsF 4Vc09Y1cG5SGts3IREOr/+hToNAnINelBJBlAJBz7725wxgL/eggt4cCsjDQ4Q+qKOVM 2gNQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.223.13 with SMTP id ii13mr7735099vcb.2.1347898853939; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.228.1 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:20:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:20:53 +0100 Message-ID: From: Tom Evans To: Zhihao Yuan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:20:55 -0000 On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Zhihao Yuan wrote: > I definitely agree with this. Sun has a book, "UNIX Essentials > featuring the Solaris...", and GUI takes a big part in the book. A > default GUI is essential to a modern UNIX. FreeBSD can no longer > regard GUI as a third-party bonus. This is according to *your* use cases though. There are many of us who do not put X - or any graphical environment - on our FreeBSD servers. If FreeBSD did not regard a GUI as an optional 3rd party component, that would mean bringing Xorg, and a specified default WM into base - potentially even dbus and hald as well. IMO that would be a waste of time and resources, as both Xorg and most WM have rapid development changes - just look at how many issues are brought up on x11@ when there are new upgrades of Xorg available. As well as this, Xorg versions would have to remain relatively stable during minor releases, meaning if you DO want X11, then you are being hamstrung by requiring it in base. Status quo for me please. Cheers Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 16:24:26 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4EB9106564A; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:24:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lichray@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ie0-f182.google.com (mail-ie0-f182.google.com [209.85.223.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E97A8FC0C; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:24:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iea17 with SMTP id 17so7261795iea.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:24:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=sa3KpsfnoNbOM9qefeOjJBKAkPI1dmcVPiw7RR9FWJY=; b=s67ZEbfZcBWfBTJIwL0PrV/ymd9k8iQaOkSdfPTHsL7ic//mrRA/2skLRN6HnUZPCA 6i6mwPNsdqNshVGrxF/HeS+GzIU9MaaZXxPU50Ay50w3OiBPc6ATbLtJcV+vixNvcSwA GF7Nj8+dUOV5p5wFqxj23iH0WNLszpUmDshcRTikwObBC2syI+zET0svczc9GOsQTT+2 K8XymBqVnI1fpLkqzzvRoFFhnR4KEQSgSIzp7c1MIqYTKHmDrtickDEM76vzihAkRyKr VHwr9nibuTQurU8bj9PsJgoOOn3WEwdFMGyx3pH4lbHmns9ica/mUlanlwKQfR9vO3DZ 2IcQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.47.234 with SMTP id g10mr6928749ign.16.1347899065872; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.127.76 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:24:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <63170.1347898847@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <63170.1347898847@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:24:25 -0500 Message-ID: From: Zhihao Yuan To: Poul-Henning Kamp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Lorenzo Cogotti Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:24:26 -0000 On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message > , Zhihao Yuan writes: >>On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>> In message , Lorenzo Cogotti writ >>> es: >>>>Hi, >>>>I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official >>>>supported graphical environment. >>> >>> We already do: It's called "X11" :-) >> >>How about Wikipedia "graphical environment" before u say this? > > How about you try to install ports/x11-vm/twm, turn your CPU > speed down to 20 MHz and get a good feel for how a graphical > environment felt 25 years ago, before you make a fool of yourself ? > > :-) > > There is no way that FreeBSD is going to annoint a canonical > window manager (look that up too!), we've been down that road > before and the landscape is ugly and filled with bikesheds. > > My suggest was 100% serious: Assume X11 _is_ the graphical > environment, pick a toolkit which is written to work with > any window manager, which all good toolkits are, and move on. You can "assume", but you can't deny that X11 is not GUI at all, and twm is not a modern GUI either. > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. -- Zhihao Yuan, nickname lichray The best way to predict the future is to invent it. ___________________________________________________ 4BSD -- http://4bsd.biz/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 16:25:48 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7F1E1065670 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:25:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stephen@missouri.edu) Received: from wilberforce.math.missouri.edu (wilberforce.math.missouri.edu [128.206.184.213]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 829308FC1B for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:25:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [128.206.184.213] (wilberforce.math.missouri.edu [128.206.184.213]) by wilberforce.math.missouri.edu (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8HGPfMs056466; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:25:41 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from stephen@missouri.edu) Message-ID: <50574F05.8030209@missouri.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:25:41 -0500 From: Stephen Montgomery-Smith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120901 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lorenzo Cogotti References: <62954.1347896564@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:25:48 -0000 On 09/17/12 11:14, Lorenzo Cogotti wrote: > Il 17/09/2012 17:42, Poul-Henning Kamp ha scritto: >> In message , Lorenzo Cogotti writ >> es: >>> Hi, >>> I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official >>> supported graphical environment. >> We already do: It's called "X11" :-) >> > > (sending back to mailing list due to a mistake replying personally, I > apologize) > > That's surely more of a standard than Linux can provide, considering > Wayland :-) > > I meant something more abstract that could provide a default desktop > feel and the possibility of writing more complex GUI interfaces in less > time, so that, for example, I could create a GUI tool while being > consistent with the rest of the environment. > Right now this can't be achieved (in an easy way) without taking into > account Qt, GTK+, X and an enormous number of other toolkits available. > >> In message , Lorenzo Cogotti writ >> es: >> >>> Right now this can't be achieved (in an easy way) without taking into >>> account Qt, GTK+, X and an enormous number of other toolkits available. >> Do what everybody else does: Pick the toolkit you prefer to work in >> and move on... > > This idea would precisely serve the purpose of removing this need and > eliminate redundancy of toolkits, when it comes to essential utilities > that FreeBSD would want to provide, like devices automounting, > partitioning (taking advantage of the system features) and so on... but > it's just an idea, of course. > I think most FreeBSD developers don't care to do this. If you want this to happen, you should create your own product. Call it Cogotti-BSD-Grafix, or whatever you like. Then you take the code base of FreeBSD, and work very hard to create a stable graphics environment, package it, and put up your own website advocating it. If you pick software with the right licenses, you could even sell your product. Or if you don't want to do this, find someone else who will. For all I know, maybe someone has already done this. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 16:28:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C647106566B for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:28:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@freebsd.org) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277378FC14 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:28:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5483A3B5A7; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:28:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8HGSV9g063227; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:28:31 GMT (envelope-from phk@freebsd.org) To: Zhihao Yuan From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:24:25 EST." Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:28:31 +0000 Message-ID: <63226.1347899311@critter.freebsd.dk> Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Lorenzo Cogotti Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:28:33 -0000 In message , Zhihao Yuan writes: >On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> My suggest was 100% serious: Assume X11 _is_ the graphical >> environment, pick a toolkit which is written to work with >> any window manager, which all good toolkits are, and move on. > >You can "assume", but you can't deny that X11 is not GUI at all, and >twm is not a modern GUI either. You are confusing "window manager" and "graphical user interface", one is layered on the other, your homework is to figure out which. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 16:28:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E80EF10656FD for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:28:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lichray@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACC458FC0C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:28:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iayy25 with SMTP id y25so6914334iay.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:28:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=tz+Ey8PgJiPgIHwxjrzmlUg9RRyH9Xg2g5lXf0F0F/I=; b=IM6r7N+DKr8bNLHgnE8EUIfja/jIvysxJon2cNqYjCLmEG7KHPttm8LVmbnbdLPpmz oujvOeOlOCB7IMw1ZDPTUVa5rKUf0wRbrNbnSUxGpvqOLOpMWZ9zUCpjAE8X5SwaNUKL UZnVMBwfCR2o633X4OIDQ+N9JK/j9yzjsSTvKLl5wR24Ili5XYPWOYWU61Y3diIYeSTD RX+2HE5cuLD0pEToN9jOoZmUL/CSxbNyR+4IQZS+cfrrvPeedv1SJMt1fMyOkNW1e1Hi UqAmYJfm+p0h9Tn94K/aLV3HgePCQP87qUl1VNDqPT/DfubwUY+OosaF671+zqON0IG8 daYw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.17.230 with SMTP id r6mr7407027igd.16.1347899330031; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.127.76 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:28:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120917161427.GB11773@e-new.0x20.net> References: <20120917161427.GB11773@e-new.0x20.net> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:28:49 -0500 Message-ID: From: Zhihao Yuan To: Lars Engels Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Lorenzo Cogotti Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:28:51 -0000 On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:14 AM, Lars Engels wrote: > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:00:21AM -0500, Zhihao Yuan wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Lorenzo Cogotti wrote: >> > Hi, >> > I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official >> > supported graphical environment. >> > >> > Currently FreeBSD doesn't provide any standard desktop environment, this >> > means that, in a way much similar to Linux, a developer cannot know in >> > advance which GUI will be available on the system. This leads to another >> > problem, again much similar to Linux, tools are usually provided in a >> > text based fashion only, because that's the only sure and reliable way a >> > tool can work in a relatively dependency free and independent way. As >> > another effect, many utilities and graphical tools are provided for a >> > toolkit, but not for another, needlessly duplicating efforts and >> > applications, achieving barely half the result. >> > >> > Though, in a different way than Linux, FreeBSD doesn't get much support >> > from developers in this regard, mainly because development focuses over >> > Linux rather than FreeBSD, which remains known only as a good and >> > reliable server platform, many technologies remain relatively unknown >> > and doesn't get attention from developers, like devd vs udev, and other >> > solutions that FreeBSD provides since a very long time. >> > >> > The idea would be choosing a default desktop environment and providing >> > it as the official supported way to develop GUI applications on FreeBSD, >> > thus tools provided on FreeBSD would be able to get official GUIs and >> > supported graphical tools in a standard and non-redundant fashion, like >> > a GUI for tools like pkgng, geli(8), gpart(8). This choice would also be >> > motivated by the fact that often technologies move toward Linux support, >> > like GNOME3, dbus and consolekit, without taking into account BSD. >> > >> > In this regard CDE[1] is could be an interesting choice, since it was a >> > diffuse and reliable UNIX environment, and it is lightweight, relatively >> > Linux-like dependencies free solution, which could be updated to today >> > standards and extended to support FreeBSD features. >> > CDE was just recently released with open source license[2] and some >> > effort is being made to support FreeBSD. >> > >> > Of course CDE isn't the only possibility, the idea is "desktop >> > environment agnostic", also I don't mean that FreeBSD shouldn't work >> > with other environments, which could still be installed and used as long >> > as they support the platform properly. I don't mean forcing a graphical >> > environment over installed FreeBSD systems either, which could be >> > unwanted for server installations. >> > >> > [1] http://sourceforge.net/p/cdesktopenv/wiki/Home/ >> > [2] >> > https://sourceforge.net/p/cdesktopenv/code/ci/978aff3dc9c7d009423a3d7fd0624d12f9df0734/tree/cde/COPYING?format=raw >> > >> > I see this as an interesting opportunity to let FreeBSD gain more >> > visibility in the desktop field, would this idea be useful and worth >> > implementing? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > -- >> > Lorenzo Cogotti >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >> > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> >> I definitely agree with this. Sun has a book, "UNIX Essentials >> featuring the Solaris...", and GUI takes a big part in the book. A >> default GUI is essential to a modern UNIX. FreeBSD can no longer >> regard GUI as a third-party bonus. > > If you want a default GUI, install PC-BSD. It provides several graphical > management tools for FreeBSD. I hope you *really* used PC-BSD. I don't think an OS installing programs under /Programs can be a "GUI-replacement" to FreeBSD. -- Zhihao Yuan, nickname lichray The best way to predict the future is to invent it. ___________________________________________________ 4BSD -- http://4bsd.biz/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 16:40:34 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47E74106566B; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:40:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lichray@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F028FC14; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:40:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iayy25 with SMTP id y25so6923238iay.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:40:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=iDoIYS4C/oJFGvzehwq3Ktr0Db++7/LA+W2dG4NddIM=; b=yyTqFOV0WprHaZjg3G5o/nSz0mTTxDCkl8oID2Xge7SFzeH4E18EChH4XAWvYW3pQR YFcFaDrA7HBjZpDxJxT7VaOQ1XmGrnyysnOkdroNj/UyIxxhccXMmQkvfxmCpFxV3U2j rSWSVXOUwnkWU9rL03JF16wlDRt7tfRtmb8iEzkj6+wqnxW2UCTNhJC6S/OPdc0ZdQqm Bak2TL7xMLOh952O4PdnWfR9dtneANQCC18+VITpc1J2toDIg4c2SIfY8HHBxHnFXd9B jbAkWNv6LIGikHZjceqOYkfAsHmArX47pgPGWOSYEXtONYqefCmIGZK75dH4yZpSSZQA 62uQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.40.225 with SMTP id a1mr7507702igl.51.1347900033306; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.127.76 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:40:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <63226.1347899311@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <63226.1347899311@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:40:33 -0500 Message-ID: From: Zhihao Yuan To: Poul-Henning Kamp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Lorenzo Cogotti Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:40:34 -0000 On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message > , Zhihao Yuan writes: >>On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >>> My suggest was 100% serious: Assume X11 _is_ the graphical >>> environment, pick a toolkit which is written to work with >>> any window manager, which all good toolkits are, and move on. >> >>You can "assume", but you can't deny that X11 is not GUI at all, and >>twm is not a modern GUI either. > > You are confusing "window manager" and "graphical user interface", > one is layered on the other, your homework is to figure out which. GUI is a concept. People can use WM or DE as their GUIs. X11 is not usable from a user's point of view, so it's out of the question. So far, your statement "Assume X11 _is_ the graphical environment" is already nonsense. And then, a modern GUI should take care of Wifi, automount, and many things can't be done with a single WM. That's why I said "twm is not a modern GUI". So far, any questions? > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. -- Zhihao Yuan, nickname lichray The best way to predict the future is to invent it. ___________________________________________________ 4BSD -- http://4bsd.biz/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 16:14:30 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 690941065670 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:14:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lars@e-new.0x20.net) Received: from mail.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [IPv6:2001:aa8:fffb:1::3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E08B28FC0A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:14:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [IPv6:2001:aa8:fffb:1::3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.0x20.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA8DA6A6006; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:14:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8HGESrI044691; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:14:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lars@e-new.0x20.net) Received: (from lars@localhost) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q8HGERDU043434; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:14:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lars) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:14:27 +0200 From: Lars Engels To: Zhihao Yuan Message-ID: <20120917161427.GB11773@e-new.0x20.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Qtzb1h6tVL0ohdDu" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 7.3 X-Operation-System: FreeBSD 8.3-RELEASE-p2 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:43:58 +0000 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Lorenzo Cogotti Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:14:30 -0000 --Qtzb1h6tVL0ohdDu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:00:21AM -0500, Zhihao Yuan wrote: > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Lorenzo Cogotti = wrote: > > Hi, > > I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official > > supported graphical environment. > > > > Currently FreeBSD doesn't provide any standard desktop environment, this > > means that, in a way much similar to Linux, a developer cannot know in > > advance which GUI will be available on the system. This leads to another > > problem, again much similar to Linux, tools are usually provided in a > > text based fashion only, because that's the only sure and reliable way a > > tool can work in a relatively dependency free and independent way. As > > another effect, many utilities and graphical tools are provided for a > > toolkit, but not for another, needlessly duplicating efforts and > > applications, achieving barely half the result. > > > > Though, in a different way than Linux, FreeBSD doesn't get much support > > from developers in this regard, mainly because development focuses over > > Linux rather than FreeBSD, which remains known only as a good and > > reliable server platform, many technologies remain relatively unknown > > and doesn't get attention from developers, like devd vs udev, and other > > solutions that FreeBSD provides since a very long time. > > > > The idea would be choosing a default desktop environment and providing > > it as the official supported way to develop GUI applications on FreeBSD, > > thus tools provided on FreeBSD would be able to get official GUIs and > > supported graphical tools in a standard and non-redundant fashion, like > > a GUI for tools like pkgng, geli(8), gpart(8). This choice would also be > > motivated by the fact that often technologies move toward Linux support, > > like GNOME3, dbus and consolekit, without taking into account BSD. > > > > In this regard CDE[1] is could be an interesting choice, since it was a > > diffuse and reliable UNIX environment, and it is lightweight, relatively > > Linux-like dependencies free solution, which could be updated to today > > standards and extended to support FreeBSD features. > > CDE was just recently released with open source license[2] and some > > effort is being made to support FreeBSD. > > > > Of course CDE isn't the only possibility, the idea is "desktop > > environment agnostic", also I don't mean that FreeBSD shouldn't work > > with other environments, which could still be installed and used as long > > as they support the platform properly. I don't mean forcing a graphical > > environment over installed FreeBSD systems either, which could be > > unwanted for server installations. > > > > [1] http://sourceforge.net/p/cdesktopenv/wiki/Home/ > > [2] > > https://sourceforge.net/p/cdesktopenv/code/ci/978aff3dc9c7d009423a3d7fd= 0624d12f9df0734/tree/cde/COPYING?format=3Draw > > > > I see this as an interesting opportunity to let FreeBSD gain more > > visibility in the desktop field, would this idea be useful and worth > > implementing? > > > > Thanks, > > > > -- > > Lorenzo Cogotti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.o= rg" >=20 > I definitely agree with this. Sun has a book, "UNIX Essentials > featuring the Solaris...", and GUI takes a big part in the book. A > default GUI is essential to a modern UNIX. FreeBSD can no longer > regard GUI as a third-party bonus. If you want a default GUI, install PC-BSD. It provides several graphical management tools for FreeBSD. --Qtzb1h6tVL0ohdDu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAlBXTGMACgkQKc512sD3afjF4gCfWXa9r7KEjgC/JqKuN2OQQ486 SPYAnjfJhvKfNrebwElV8DNmbVIg5Yzf =/7uL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Qtzb1h6tVL0ohdDu-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 16:44:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3380A1065670 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:44:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miciamail@hotmail.it) Received: from blu0-omc2-s24.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc2-s24.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E846C8FC08 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:44:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BLU0-SMTP132 ([65.55.111.71]) by blu0-omc2-s24.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:44:01 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [78.13.110.33] X-EIP: [UBvn/wv+0J8OVD/eAW/FujrzQVcDLb7q] X-Originating-Email: [miciamail@hotmail.it] Message-ID: Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([78.13.110.33]) by BLU0-SMTP132.blu0.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:44:00 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:40:04 +0200 From: Lorenzo Cogotti User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120729 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Sep 2012 16:44:00.0448 (UTC) FILETIME=[A37D6400:01CD94F3] Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:44:09 -0000 Il 17/09/2012 18:20, Tom Evans ha scritto: > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Zhihao Yuan wrote: >> I definitely agree with this. Sun has a book, "UNIX Essentials >> featuring the Solaris...", and GUI takes a big part in the book. A >> default GUI is essential to a modern UNIX. FreeBSD can no longer >> regard GUI as a third-party bonus. > This is according to *your* use cases though. There are many of us who > do not put X - or any graphical environment - on our FreeBSD servers. > > If FreeBSD did not regard a GUI as an optional 3rd party component, > that would mean bringing Xorg, and a specified default WM into base - > potentially even dbus and hald as well. IMO that would be a waste of > time and resources, as both Xorg and most WM have rapid development > changes - just look at how many issues are brought up on x11@ when > there are new upgrades of Xorg available. > > As well as this, Xorg versions would have to remain relatively stable > during minor releases, meaning if you DO want X11, then you are being > hamstrung by requiring it in base. > > Status quo for me please. > > Cheers > > Tom > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > I don't have in mind of pulling X in the default FreeBSD installation, I'd rather keep that requirement away. Although I don't understand what's the problem with having X stable between releases and having an official, supported FreeBSD GUI environment, so that when a developer tries to figure out which API he/she needs to deal with on this system, documentation and examples are immediately available, as long as he/she follows the guidelines, it will work perfectly with FreeBSD and integrate with the default GUI. I don't see this as "forcing a default GUI and making FreeBSD a graphical OS", I see this as estabilishing a standard for developers who want to develop GUI applications on FreeBSD, supporting features as panel integration, reliable messageboxes and other trivial things, on other operating systems, that are apparently unavailable on UNIX without pulling in significant portions of lots of environments. X server is a good standard for low level GUIs, like a single window (and even with that you'll have a hard time adding fullscreen support, copy to clipboard support and other apparently trivial tasks), but try to implement some advanced application with it, it just isn't enough to keep development time affordable, so let's say we want to provide an official GUI for a BSD tool, what will it use, GTK+, Qt, pure X server? If FreeBSD states "CDE is the official supported desktop", any BSD application will use it, if KDE4 is chosen, then a KDE GUI is provided and so on, no ambiguity, consistency and no additional dependency is involved, just a clear standard. I can't see how this could bother FreeBSD philosophy or servers in any way. The only objective is introducing a standard for GUI application development that FreeBSD projects could rely on to deliver not only text based applications, but also desktop applications, and a FreeBSD specific automounter could be a good example. -- Lorenzo Cogotti From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 17:00:51 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1141065672 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:00:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oa0-f54.google.com (mail-oa0-f54.google.com [209.85.219.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69298FC0C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:00:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: by oagm1 with SMTP id m1so6279623oag.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:00:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=tkkCPEfTYHA5ZzOr9iIa1M0DEJJO6z18vB8nEaF8Y3E=; b=CkbV4e1Z+0qEr+hjCNKHu/Ea9DJ3Amr0yFMreZF7q2y8Mj736kUTGdVFiVJ9CbmNu1 PvQFmoRWUWcdptGA/vnsuWNDETTb6UyzNZq+5yOQ7GnwQ4E+/4l+T8Se6sAeG544+B3t +MrS+2Q8Ne/SxPcRR+VRin+rdMbq83FmYL2f9RU93M/XD8tCtfpEg67zfgdAtzuQGRQE sLVZ718QfFL569IFpFTcnJzm1kLA7fhmNkkt6pYvqkAOQU7xK5ofk8QDRwVKh7pxcoKB DISbNmIv6obERR0JxISf3sbzHO20ZIZGvNCKegsfF8f51tEsIC42+2N7UwyFbWWEmlTi N6qA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.13.232 with SMTP id k8mr12172551oec.81.1347901251040; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.142.201 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:00:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:00:50 -0700 Message-ID: From: Garrett Cooper To: Lorenzo Cogotti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:00:52 -0000 On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Lorenzo Cogotti wrote: > Hi, ... Replying more to the Wayland comments, yes.. FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD need to implement the Wayland `protocol` because xorg-server development is slowly being killed over time, but unfortunately that work is not slotted by anyone directly affiliated with the project AFAIK. The project is also beta though, and as many know "the new hotness" in Linux generally has a short lifespan unless it's truly well thought out, so I think waiting and seeing what happens (but observing with interest and participating in discussions are necessary) would be a better use of resources instead of immediately immersing FreeBSD into Linux-style development churn. Thanks, -Garrett From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 17:06:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 177DD106566C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:06:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B65178FC15 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:06:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so11611694obb.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:06:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:organization :x-mailer:face:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-gm-message-state; bh=4Kzg+58KvVZQA0VgQ712w0Lg8colkCIjObS+ZWbtETg=; b=Kt4hIbhx2C1aHrEWJvsE/ENDhcJIX/NdRArg03k5nNMbCQmHHflro18g/qPlZLuQUx hFcSvKol2ZJBM61zwbCHGRjwn92MXymgimlHEFi3dlqNiN7RUhrwn2OueWU4iTDjbOJq YexNXYwp9FIGQnpA5jr3ClK0cSW/SPCAnFuoivq02swOCaPZhY/0RO8T1GhIwpAstx54 T0WWOwEgM+jaIWThmsZttk+psHommP8OgqdHZZcETRHYQHH+iv92YyxHXiNM5lNPDg9j JmbCsqpa+H3Z3cNMixDI78ihggx63evUWMNtiW5Enul1zCgdAlHaGevGCf70ztnWu9Hl Ec6Q== Received: by 10.60.172.237 with SMTP id bf13mr11746268oec.24.1347901589929; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bhuda.mired.org (ip72-200-195-210.ok.ok.cox.net. [72.200.195.210]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id rg10sm11283645obc.14.2012.09.17.10.06.29 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:06:26 -0500 From: Mike Meyer To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20120917120626.51369945@bhuda.mired.org> In-Reply-To: References: <63226.1347899311@critter.freebsd.dk> Organization: Meyer Consulting X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0 (GTK+ 2.24.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd8.3) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAG1BMVEXguIzRkGnhyaz069mXhW0WHRnbrnR9WCQ6LB0CchNMAAACSUlEQVQ4jV2TQW7jMAxFGaPQOgQEdZaGMsgBrAvUA03dCxj1Uu4U2gfwQD7AGNax51NK07RcxXz6/CSl0Ij450vkPG1jzpIZM1UwDCl/xB14TWnNX8A00Qj5a0mnVFVbVUz4MeErea2HikSRqZzY894zwg9p2+/AtO8LzxFED+tNAUFeU29iFOLRxlZAcdo9A8wi8ZBMV4BKPde82Oxrvs6BTkulQIClte0DLFzzsKk9j1MBex8iUaP00Bd78S/muyFScrTXz6zLkEUxJp+SabQfNOs4f4Jpx5qSZ/304PWwlEWP1cOn/mJQR7EOD+uKhjcBLziuL7xoY5Xm+VFAUSw/LwwwsHEHxihpwV4EJH0xXRkbw1PkRw+X4pEuSJwBggqk+HEYKkiL5/74/nQkogigzQsAFrakxZyfw3wMIEEZPv4AWMfxwqE5GNxGaERjmH+PG8AE0L4/w9g0lsp1raLYAN5azQa+AOoO9NwcpFkTrG2VKNMNEL5UKUUAw34tha0z7onUG0oBoNtczE04GwFE3wCHc0ChezAJ6A1WMV81AtY7wDAJSlXwV+4cwBvsOsrQMRawfQEBz0deEZ7WNpV2szckIKo5VpDHDSDvF1GItwqqAlG01Hh50BGtVhuUkjkasg/14bYFGCgWg1fSWHvmOoJck2xdp9ZvZBHzDVTzX23TkrOn7qe5U2COEw5D4Vx3qEQpFY2Z/3QFnJxzp7YCmSMG19nOUoe869zZfOQb5ywQuWu0yCn5+8gxZz+BE7vG3j4/wbf4D/sXN9Wug1s7AAAAAElFTkSuQmCC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmNl/U+US/pkV8fPHH2RgdWTCtGQp5i9J50o+0gZj/k2P3ybWmGtwcxz+wCRtGnoyT8Fwk/ Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:06:31 -0000 On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:40:33 -0500 Zhihao Yuan wrote: > GUI is a concept. People can use WM or DE as their GUIs. X11 is not > usable from a user's point of view, so it's out of the question. So > far, your statement "Assume X11 _is_ the graphical environment" is > already nonsense. As someone who's used X without a WM or DE, I have to disagree. I think PHK is dead on - X11 is a collection of protocols for working in a bit mapped display + pointer (aka "graphical") environment. As compared to a character-mapped display + keyboard (aka "command line") environment. > And then, a modern GUI should take care of Wifi, automount, and many > things can't be done with a single WM. You seem to be using GUI in a different manner than I'm used to. Graphic User Interfaces don't *do* things, they provide a graphical communications path (the Interface in GUI) between the user and tools. Asking for a GUI that takes care of Wifi and automount and other such things makes no more sense than asking for a mouse that does those things. Those things are done by *tools*. You can have tools with GUIs that do those things - a desktop manager, or a window manager (and if you think a single WM can't do all those things, you are looking at wimpy WMs), or a taskbar manager, or even a web-based systems manager. Until you two can agree on what the terms mean, you're going to be talking past each other. But PHK seems to be using the common definitions. Or maybe you should start over, and describe the behavior of the program you think FreeBSD should adopt, rather than trying to name it. http://www.mired.org/ Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information. O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 17:26:25 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B038106566C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:26:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A118FC0A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:26:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dadr6 with SMTP id r6so4610694dad.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:26:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=GoknEaeeyUBSws7EnTHn1l/NRq4rkYwM5HkvnTMY4Bo=; b=yt2qrhL6hWsR9ywqetP4FTTvN5c/PfVEQKmWK1uxtTji23n2xYfgyIYRXIIRRZd00C qtOHQyAQvn0f1e4CXp5gwT1t/8iSyahrAhh8ufjjiwB5yR5TiToX6TmmdmfKhwBF3AYt V/2U0xW/pCIXx8k8G6F/Nl84USKAoidLVNwJe5LbzTvbOaZGLcQET3H93y+TSM03DCPd +dQl71lk9M/rfUtWv05UcpBaK9jKRZSI8u3T/aYPjTi8DiwFUoOmRxhUotnOB6BpSV7S eGrpqhWREemQJk0uRc4xNp+0+lLaHArSWubEEaMuvAShHBh1+nN3qsDcvZECzeEaoncx d6UQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.204.169 with SMTP id kz9mr23636565pbc.39.1347902785090; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.36.106 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:26:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20120917161427.GB11773@e-new.0x20.net> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:26:25 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2ge4Zai-m_FPEMcXTIxPIILVutA Message-ID: From: Adrian Chadd To: Zhihao Yuan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Lorenzo Cogotti , Lars Engels Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:26:25 -0000 What are you trying to achieve? Are you trying to write a set of utilities for FreeBSD that are GUI in nature? And you'd like to know which toolkit is "blessed" for a consistent, integrated feel and development environment? Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 17:53:41 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C66B1065672 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:53:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lichray@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2105A8FC12 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:53:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iayy25 with SMTP id y25so6976557iay.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:53:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Y1Ak5RcgZhgcJS0ZhwTUQoHT0+mdw0HLVPu1NJRTZd8=; b=TENESpn7KRe/S3+0Fv6yKNOrOPRPbvafiJYKbewXW9UfVmcqnFm2WV/ZhWyfQ0id0r TViw6BKZ9zDhsr1N79yHi17PSWnAJl0uRUM5b5l5hxELKiuqxXam29LN1B2yc20+oYQM vBPqcUN7PNeyaVDpDixH8v8T5yIV4cLlfrBLG63RQgO1UtonvUpdMvXSIyz65Z5gNyz/ NyOoNzfrcV4At3X7N14utne9s3FFV8orS4LUL1q9k1dU5afnCOYeaHgNF0ujI7DkzQt3 KGdBn3/LTNhGCb6qMrPbwqEtbBBfH55WGC41ve5fE4mo5uUsSL79izcImJKML3MpnwjI 2/Nw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.203.97 with SMTP id kp1mr7693435igc.11.1347904420462; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.127.76 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:53:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120917120626.51369945@bhuda.mired.org> References: <63226.1347899311@critter.freebsd.dk> <20120917120626.51369945@bhuda.mired.org> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:53:40 -0500 Message-ID: From: Zhihao Yuan To: Mike Meyer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:53:41 -0000 >From a programmer's point of view, GUI is a protocol, a graphical language. It's true. But users don't care. Users don't care how their graphical commands are being implemented. Well, let's make it more straightforward. I hope people can agree with this: a default, officially supported modern desktop environment is essential to FreeBSD. On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Mike Meyer wrote: > On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:40:33 -0500 > Zhihao Yuan wrote: >> GUI is a concept. People can use WM or DE as their GUIs. X11 is not >> usable from a user's point of view, so it's out of the question. So >> far, your statement "Assume X11 _is_ the graphical environment" is >> already nonsense. > > As someone who's used X without a WM or DE, I have to disagree. I > think PHK is dead on - X11 is a collection of protocols for working in > a bit mapped display + pointer (aka "graphical") environment. As > compared to a character-mapped display + keyboard (aka "command line") > environment. > >> And then, a modern GUI should take care of Wifi, automount, and many >> things can't be done with a single WM. > > You seem to be using GUI in a different manner than I'm used > to. Graphic User Interfaces don't *do* things, they provide a > graphical communications path (the Interface in GUI) between the user > and tools. Asking for a GUI that takes care of Wifi and automount and > other such things makes no more sense than asking for a mouse that > does those things. Those things are done by *tools*. You can have > tools with GUIs that do those things - a desktop manager, or a window > manager (and if you think a single WM can't do all those things, you > are looking at wimpy WMs), or a taskbar manager, or even a web-based > systems manager. > > Until you two can agree on what the terms mean, you're going to be > talking past each other. But PHK seems to be using the common > definitions. > > Or maybe you should start over, and describe the behavior of the > program you think FreeBSD should adopt, rather than trying to name it. > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/ > Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information. > > O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Zhihao Yuan, nickname lichray The best way to predict the future is to invent it. ___________________________________________________ 4BSD -- http://4bsd.biz/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 17:55:14 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE4851065675; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:55:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miciamail@hotmail.it) Received: from blu0-omc4-s36.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc4-s36.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.175]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D1608FC17; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:55:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BLU0-SMTP117 ([65.55.111.136]) by blu0-omc4-s36.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:55:08 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [78.13.110.33] X-EIP: [y+OnV7Zjky5m71ZIMsPnbaRenaEIMy+t] X-Originating-Email: [miciamail@hotmail.it] Message-ID: Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([78.13.110.33]) by BLU0-SMTP117.blu0.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:55:06 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:51:11 +0200 From: Lorenzo Cogotti User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120729 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adrian Chadd References: <20120917161427.GB11773@e-new.0x20.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Sep 2012 17:55:06.0792 (UTC) FILETIME=[926DD280:01CD94FD] Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Lars Engels , Zhihao Yuan Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:55:15 -0000 Il 17/09/2012 19:26, Adrian Chadd ha scritto: > What are you trying to achieve? > > Are you trying to write a set of utilities for FreeBSD that are GUI in > nature? And you'd like to know which toolkit is "blessed" for a > consistent, integrated feel and development environment? > > > > Adrian > Right now I was interested in creating a desktop oriented automounter, in order to experiment with devd (I don't know if something useful will actually come out of it). I then faced the problem that there are lots of GUI toolkits, lots of scenarios to take into account, lots of desktop environments available, basically the problem is the same that Linux has with its non existing userland. I think every developer willing to create an utility could feel overwhelmed by this task, since it's either facing a terrible work to integrate well with any desktop environment, or selecting one of them leaving the others alone. Not to mention that integrating with any desktop environment would mean delivering a solution that could be unable to fully take advantage of any desktop. Given the fact that FreeBSD will never be supported "in a spontaneous way" by the major open source desktop projects, I thought FreeBSD could simply select one of them, "blessing it" if you will. The purpose is simplifying the job of anyone willing to support FreeBSD as a desktop. There could be resources, examples, documentation and guidelines at their disposal. This would make the effort of supporting FreeBSD less significant, as well as allowing better integration and consistent feel of the offered utilities. Anything more than that depends on how much effort the FreeBSD project wants to put into this, delivering a default desktop installation, providing a customized version of the environment, and so on... A FreeBSD project (like geli or gpart) could even go as far as providing an official GUI utility next to the text based utility, without hoping for the specific desktop project to provide it (like devd integration). -- Lorenzo Cogotti From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 17:58:57 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 348071065674; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:58:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fjwcash@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lb0-f182.google.com (mail-lb0-f182.google.com [209.85.217.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B3F8FC17; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:58:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lbbgg13 with SMTP id gg13so5427603lbb.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:58:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=sZcWk/7KoxWyeil2znyNBA2ox4xpLMj2EbkPQnOwjtU=; b=J3GrtNPxuV/Z6655vMWAS6/lVWSBakydTdF15rkcbgsyeSe+NkhDsxMwyNYjQLgw2S SV5ioody0r7ttU5ZsyaYR8n9kLdZHq9DkVHDe6aSFrov0diogCumIvGBur8pqbaL0CdP huY6J6mTIvkcqcZ/Kl6lj42t37YBZ+X31QmPajIvDliiJDFuu/6aT5jbokz6/ELTftsS MQKF4Qle6t6sIC2qo+0qN9Ev/fGKMH1swLFO5m7JqQvfOgCK8XlpsQG3KCJrQO6g220h XgXBdrIxCD5VTLGM6IU3RxmExhMw5LpxFPZowAG6WKHL/DPzpujFxmqippxi+duj5Ta+ kyrA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.111.227 with SMTP id il3mr9476089lab.23.1347904735086; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.23.230 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:58:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20120917161427.GB11773@e-new.0x20.net> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:58:55 -0700 Message-ID: From: Freddie Cash To: Lorenzo Cogotti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Adrian Chadd , Lars Engels , Zhihao Yuan Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:58:57 -0000 On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Lorenzo Cogotti wrote: > Il 17/09/2012 19:26, Adrian Chadd ha scritto: >> What are you trying to achieve? > Right now I was interested in creating a desktop oriented automounter, > in order to experiment with devd (I don't know if something useful will > actually come out of it). I then faced the problem that there are lots > of GUI toolkits, lots of scenarios to take into account, lots of desktop > environments available, basically the problem is the same that Linux has > with its non existing userland. Have you seen this: http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=29895 -- Freddie Cash fjwcash@gmail.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 18:09:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EACA106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:09:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lichray@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456BA8FC0A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:09:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iayy25 with SMTP id y25so6988584iay.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:09:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=DY1XnBBJypuvt2E/4C75Anhept4j7QdlvH0oQ8K2Dqs=; b=bdc1G6kkVUohjOO97J3mfRqTf1rPX35EnrnSfLRixEy6wyUWjz6E1YJxfcA9TgswMZ 9wXBSg19LJtOQGt8rJDSJ/sXayslPtkR0MXuGCA6L4xO4nT2/tBKcJhAs7fSrKgHRebu FiGgIlyensKzUX3lTpkjDQVBvrUcC045wWV5JBkRc5P0vC1HF78Zd44l6mBpQAAInTvn PpsYESUHkXtAfELW7pd69BgRj7gC3HPz2PeH9jcDvj7WgE6OTrY7KZXftNmjNHSgWRi9 h+1WTudrGhFs/jW3p7cPnw192ZyvwD39/JS2SJ9Gq3BeKSo8afEwwr0t/I8Fv6Z1tv8o dvLQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.43.106.147 with SMTP id du19mr9677272icc.56.1347905361306; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.127.76 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:09:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <63507.1347905101@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <63507.1347905101@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:09:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Zhihao Yuan To: Poul-Henning Kamp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Mike Meyer Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:09:32 -0000 On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message > , Zhihao Yuan writes: > >>Well, let's make it more straightforward. I hope people can agree with >>this: a default, officially supported modern desktop environment is >>essential to FreeBSD. > > No, it is not. > > It would certainly be nice to have as an option, but I would hate > to have to deal with it, when I squeeze FreeBSD into embedded systems > which have neither graphics outputs nor keyboard or mouse inputs. "Default" does not mean you "have to" install it. Default means when you are looking for a DE, bsdinstall, handbook, official site, all of them answers "*DE". > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. -- Zhihao Yuan, nickname lichray The best way to predict the future is to invent it. ___________________________________________________ 4BSD -- http://4bsd.biz/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 18:05:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9752106566C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:05:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A9A8FC0C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:05:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E5BC3B754; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:05:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8HI51sD063508; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:05:01 GMT (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: Zhihao Yuan From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:53:40 EST." Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:05:01 +0000 Message-ID: <63507.1347905101@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:10:56 +0000 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Mike Meyer Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:05:04 -0000 In message , Zhihao Yuan writes: >Well, let's make it more straightforward. I hope people can agree with >this: a default, officially supported modern desktop environment is >essential to FreeBSD. No, it is not. It would certainly be nice to have as an option, but I would hate to have to deal with it, when I squeeze FreeBSD into embedded systems which have neither graphics outputs nor keyboard or mouse inputs. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 18:16:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A716106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:16:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bk0-f54.google.com (mail-bk0-f54.google.com [209.85.214.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED7B8FC0A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:15:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bkcje9 with SMTP id je9so2508643bkc.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:15:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=T2IlWrI9F9bh6IPpo2+ua1erC48bN54t7+y+7CfYFZA=; b=lMyCq/r4ybMMdV1mCpj9b5/E1R6iyVl7uZSPnH2nLeHuM2gDAqFmY1IghnNhgIHL8O B1ZQDSgTr3dmhuC/V0ItLQjC8RbM7WKnAXjuV/9NwKwrq7HvJAjQBHRerHbQS4l3hTly AaArtU7mjXEgqqdttSvmPGg/da65oZHyQPEadelJSBxFgYkdYQIjdi1kV2uRldKPtg8b z92qZN/q5sOXQUx8B67UOhuep2Pc93XHighkvCL+EUWSGhpKHkyg2hoP8wgyyajO/Ym6 5kQ8k7OCh43E+wva3eR/a9VWiT35+Bqg841JRtjqYCa8LI8IsEOWdc1ZcZWkBhyaDHv/ Z93w== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.145.82 with SMTP id c18mr4705220bkv.133.1347905758836; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.10.141 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.10.141 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:15:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:15:58 +0100 Message-ID: From: Chris Rees To: Tom Evans Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Zhihao Yuan Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:16:00 -0000 On 17 Sep 2012 17:22, "Tom Evans" wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Zhihao Yuan wrote: > > I definitely agree with this. Sun has a book, "UNIX Essentials > > featuring the Solaris...", and GUI takes a big part in the book. A > > default GUI is essential to a modern UNIX. FreeBSD can no longer > > regard GUI as a third-party bonus. > > This is according to *your* use cases though. There are many of us who > do not put X - or any graphical environment - on our FreeBSD servers. > > If FreeBSD did not regard a GUI as an optional 3rd party component, > that would mean bringing Xorg, and a specified default WM into base - > potentially even dbus and hald as well. IMO that would be a waste of > time and resources, as both Xorg and most WM have rapid development > changes - just look at how many issues are brought up on x11@ when > there are new upgrades of Xorg available. > > As well as this, Xorg versions would have to remain relatively stable > during minor releases, meaning if you DO want X11, then you are being > hamstrung by requiring it in base. > > Status quo for me please. Time and time again, this comes up. Being official does not mean it should be in base. Chris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 18:28:45 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ADB5106566C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:28:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ayoung@mosaicarchive.com) Received: from mail-qc0-f182.google.com (mail-qc0-f182.google.com [209.85.216.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE538FC17 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:28:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qcsg15 with SMTP id g15so5857419qcs.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:28:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=subject:references:from:content-type:x-mailer:in-reply-to :message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :x-gm-message-state; bh=hG1DoizxMcIUiUGIGj51t7LSmTNFQ7csNjhwKJuTvY4=; b=IyPltZOMyesQu1Jd6e2uYXzrarMLKYd0mfTv96eNjl4Rebqbvubidpt/mKuFAtpE7W vyl1ZQLVlzPdGnnqXEls/pZ3BIz6iryWY/SyFgE7RP7mIWKfMlmDMrDCLlGNF+ulEBpJ p1h4TCKJF3up1gzO/kM4Uz5B5hi7N9/DZGI95rPxjo6u6bn9yhrEbZio7cEubCGFoQeo Bz9H3E2coWH8gl4kv4I09qqB/4lk1XnnKXiZ2akLA6nRnnezrTw3IWQKPQIi3/RQQkSj LgOsUxpa57Ak2p+mvCZfO4wtubd7xl6FgUL6sAjTvUBKcRK3RkXX/VBrv/KqxBQ8nHmi Dv/g== Received: by 10.224.181.79 with SMTP id bx15mr29399032qab.41.1347906523935; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (pool-96-237-242-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net. [96.237.242.243]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id et6sm16152914qab.8.2012.09.17.11.28.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:28:43 -0700 (PDT) References: <63226.1347899311@critter.freebsd.dk> <20120917120626.51369945@bhuda.mired.org> From: Andrew Young Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B206) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <3B4C348C-91B0-46B9-9670-51F9F3CB0508@mosaicarchive.com> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:28:42 -0400 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnXD0EHryHaxAQVOdn5vfonIYaN2eMV37+CMqIk1sOm7JhjejpjY5LYAwDXTVLa3LFEWGSY Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:28:45 -0000 I spent years using Linux before I truly appreciated the key difference betw= een a "desktop environment" and a "graphical environment". Probably because e= veryone had to have a desktop environment.=20 I define graphical environment as simply X11 and a window manager. That's al= l you need to run Firefox, Gimp, etc. Because x11 is the underlying base, an= y toolkit (gtk, qt, whatever) will work just fine. A developer can pick the t= oolkit they're most comfortable with and it will work on anyone's system.=20= In contrast, a "desktop environment" builds an entirely separate layer on to= p primarily to allow the desktop applications to communicate with one anothe= r. Things like network monitoring and message notifications are usually incl= uded. This is also where developers suddenly need to choose. Do you write co= de for KDE, Gnome, or another? Users will only run one desktop environment s= o choosing one will alienate the others.=20 IMHO, a graphical environment is useful for running applications like Firefo= x and Gimp. I never run either of these on a server so I would never want to= install even a graphical environment on my servers.=20 I have no use at all for desktop environments. They're often bloated, buggy,= and provide no real value to me. I would much rather install x11 and dwm.=20= > this: a default, officially supported modern desktop environment is > essential to FreeBSD. I completely disagree. X11 + WM is more than adequate for my needs. And I do= n't need either of these on the servers whee I rely on FreeBSD.=20 Andy On Sep 17, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Zhihao Yuan wrote: >> =46rom a programmer's point of view, GUI is a protocol, a graphical > language. It's true. But users don't care. Users don't care how their > graphical commands are being implemented. >=20 > Well, let's make it more straightforward. I hope people can agree with > this: a default, officially supported modern desktop environment is > essential to FreeBSD. >=20 > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Mike Meyer wrote: >> On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:40:33 -0500 >> Zhihao Yuan wrote: >>> GUI is a concept. People can use WM or DE as their GUIs. X11 is not >>> usable from a user's point of view, so it's out of the question. So >>> far, your statement "Assume X11 _is_ the graphical environment" is >>> already nonsense. >>=20 >> As someone who's used X without a WM or DE, I have to disagree. I >> think PHK is dead on - X11 is a collection of protocols for working in >> a bit mapped display + pointer (aka "graphical") environment. As >> compared to a character-mapped display + keyboard (aka "command line") >> environment. >>=20 >>> And then, a modern GUI should take care of Wifi, automount, and many >>> things can't be done with a single WM. >>=20 >> You seem to be using GUI in a different manner than I'm used >> to. Graphic User Interfaces don't *do* things, they provide a >> graphical communications path (the Interface in GUI) between the user >> and tools. Asking for a GUI that takes care of Wifi and automount and >> other such things makes no more sense than asking for a mouse that >> does those things. Those things are done by *tools*. You can have >> tools with GUIs that do those things - a desktop manager, or a window >> manager (and if you think a single WM can't do all those things, you >> are looking at wimpy WMs), or a taskbar manager, or even a web-based >> systems manager. >>=20 >> Until you two can agree on what the terms mean, you're going to be >> talking past each other. But PHK seems to be using the common >> definitions. >>=20 >> Or maybe you should start over, and describe the behavior of the >> program you think FreeBSD should adopt, rather than trying to name it. >>=20 >> > -- >> Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/ >> Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information= . >>=20 >> O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Zhihao Yuan, nickname lichray > The best way to predict the future is to invent it. > ___________________________________________________ > 4BSD -- http://4bsd.biz/ > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"= From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 18:32:13 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F55106566B for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:32:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117688FC0C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:32:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so11754910obb.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:32:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=N/I1PD0IY4dUarbNgcanfSbmaiRDeqiCY0NPBu0aP/8=; b=0PF+X/aQ17FFpoq5D0gxjkwsoNWasMA4xr+TBITAwKZTjU6iX1yyjqvzReAtK232c2 TR4VfOwSp12b70l8J5jFBrWpduKMUY+Xv3x3wQ7TEUavqbjuXupP06dHl4KFdkEf7R/r 4jy+jhEKIA/ZOpfEd5RcydibhLT2Q12Qesi8aPK/p2iN3TIdCtsINoDRCD13xwaQ2N7/ 9Mmawuz6lKnp/8q6ZtFO8Vfwk0kPqd+bCXkapM7DCR9zC7LJIhSrFAlYmoKg6xutv6gK 4rGK69Cym1eXyvOWd+kDaVn3DhvLMGRI0ItgZUjKjVg1ntwdg+Jxl4aCRCX7rq/mVf/i vG9g== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.109.74 with SMTP id hq10mr12505164obb.56.1347906732347; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.142.201 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:32:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <63507.1347905101@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:32:12 -0700 Message-ID: From: Garrett Cooper To: Zhihao Yuan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Poul-Henning Kamp , Mike Meyer Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:32:13 -0000 On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Zhihao Yuan wrote: > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> In message >> , Zhihao Yuan writes: >> >>>Well, let's make it more straightforward. I hope people can agree with >>>this: a default, officially supported modern desktop environment is >>>essential to FreeBSD. >> >> No, it is not. >> >> It would certainly be nice to have as an option, but I would hate >> to have to deal with it, when I squeeze FreeBSD into embedded systems >> which have neither graphics outputs nor keyboard or mouse inputs. > > "Default" does not mean you "have to" install it. Default means when > you are looking for a DE, bsdinstall, handbook, official site, all of > them answers "*DE". *gathers breath for really tangential/OT rant* Sounds like we have someone volunteering to write a chapter in the handbook and do some X11 development to make Gnome, KDE, XFCE, LXDE, Fluxbox, [...], or etc work better on FreeBSD! To be succinct: this is not OSX/Windows. True Unix and Unix clones can be decoupled from a desktop environment enough that forcing everyone to have one choice for desktop user experience doesn't make sense, and the fact that there isn't a common GUI development toolkit (GTK, QT, etc) encourages fragmentation of effort further (I think it's called the Bazaar model of development :P). It honestly sounds like what you're looking for is a custom FreeBSD-based distribution (and PCBSD is one of those options) as FreeBSD is a generic project. Even the Linux kernel//GNU/Linux OS doesn't have a single adopted DE as its flagship DE. With all of the choices I listed above (and more), getting everyone to agree on working with one DE is like herding cats, in part because end-users/developers have different requirements, opinions, work styles, etc. It makes more sense to provide hooks into several DEs (like Linux, PCBSD, etc has done) to accomplish various tasks in a GUI-ish manner (setting up networking, wireless, etc) and upstream those changes if and when one has the chance to do so. Finally, one should then become a devoted "testing resource"/"advocate" FreeBSD OS integration in the future if one has interest in continuing to use said DE on FreeBSD. Thanks, -Garrett From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 19:05:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366B9106566C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:05:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miciamail@hotmail.it) Received: from blu0-omc2-s15.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc2-s15.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.90]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A038FC16 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:05:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BLU0-SMTP199 ([65.55.111.71]) by blu0-omc2-s15.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:05:42 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [78.13.110.33] X-EIP: [x0QykGwNKEp236IXiCiJFcpOLuM0sG9u] X-Originating-Email: [miciamail@hotmail.it] Message-ID: Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([78.13.110.33]) by BLU0-SMTP199.blu0.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:05:41 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:01:48 +0200 From: Lorenzo Cogotti User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120729 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <63507.1347905101@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Sep 2012 19:05:41.0695 (UTC) FILETIME=[6EA0BCF0:01CD9507] Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:05:44 -0000 Il 17/09/2012 20:32, Garrett Cooper ha scritto: > *gathers breath for really tangential/OT rant* > > > Sounds like we have someone volunteering to write a chapter in the > handbook and do some X11 development to make Gnome, KDE, XFCE, LXDE, > Fluxbox, [...], or etc work better on FreeBSD! > If I proposed it, is because I'm willing to offer my help implementing my idea if it gets attention :-) > > To be succinct: this is not OSX/Windows. True Unix and Unix clones can > be decoupled from a desktop environment enough that forcing everyone > to have one choice for desktop user experience doesn't make sense, and > the fact that there isn't a common GUI development toolkit (GTK, QT, > etc) encourages fragmentation of effort further (I think it's called > the Bazaar model of development :P). As I tried to make clear, I *don't want* to limit user's freedom in any way, nor getting away UNIX philosophy in any way from FreeBSD, nor trying to remove servers or other desktop environments solutions in any way. Solaris and other UNIces had CDE as their default environment, this was not preventing a perfectly written toolkit that used X server to run there, it wasn't preventing users from tearing away the GUI part and using it without it. My only objective is estabilishing a standard, just saying "you want to make a GUI application for FreeBSD? You are asking yourself what desktop environment will work for sure on FreeBSD? There you have it, Blah DE works just well and is perfectly documented." > [...] Even the Linux kernel//GNU/Linux OS > doesn't have a single adopted DE as its flagship DE. Do we really have to look at Linux searching for good standards? They had OSS for audio, then replaced it with ALSA, now they're using pulseaudio as the default sound server while pretending that ALSA is still the standard (which is half-backward compatible with OSS anyway), while they're still deciding what's better for their init system... ah, they're also trying to replace X with Wayland :-) > With all of the > choices I listed above (and more), getting everyone to agree on > working with one DE is like herding cats, in part because > end-users/developers have different requirements, opinions, work > styles, etc. I don't mean that everyone should use exactly that, just ensuring a supported and well documented desktop environment to work with, nothing more, one might always decide to use another one (and to create FreeBSD utilities for another DE). > It makes more sense to provide hooks into several DEs (like Linux, > PCBSD, etc has done) to accomplish various tasks in a GUI-ish manner > (setting up networking, wireless, etc) and upstream those changes if > and when one has the chance to do so. But that's not going to eliminate the tremendous work to support every desktop environment well, nor will give developers a chance to provide official GUIs themselves, without delegating other developers and providing 4 different GUIs for every desktop environment. > Finally, one should then become > a devoted "testing resource"/"advocate" FreeBSD OS integration in the > future if one has interest in continuing to use said DE on FreeBSD. Yes, that's probably true > Thanks, > -Garrett Basically my point of view is: - You're using FreeBSD as a server? Fine, nothing will change, just leave the GUI alone. - You're using FreeBSD with a minimal graphical environment, no desktop, no nothing? Nice, you can just keep using that, with the traditional text based utilities to manage your system, which are always provided since FreeBSD works just great as a server and UNIX separates GUI from your system. - You're using FreeBSD with your favourite desktop environment and you don't like the official FreeBSD environment? Nice, nothing will change, as long as the developers will do a good job supporting FreeBSD, using UNIX standard programming and that environment works with X, you can keep using it. - You want to use FreeBSD official environment? Good, you'll get official utilities for FreeBSD and you are ensured a certain amount of support and stability from your system, since that's the official environment. - You are a developer wanting to build some FreeBSD desktop utilities? Unless you want to specifically target your utility to a desktop environment, you have documentation, guidelines and support for the official desktop environment. You are also able to interact with the rest of the desktop (for example creating a GUI configuration editor, a taskbar icon or simply stream a sound). You can also communicate with other official desktop utilities, since (official utilities) are all targeted for this environment, you can, for example, create a partitioning tool and other utilities can communicate with it nicely (because it is well documented and easy to find out). So I can't see how bad this is, it simply looks as a nice to have standard to me, exactly like POSIX, even if UNIX has the bazaar philosophy, you still offer POSIX compatibility and X server as sane defaults. Thanks, -- Lorenzo Cogotti From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 19:13:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 410E4106566C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:13:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lichray@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ie0-f182.google.com (mail-ie0-f182.google.com [209.85.223.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AEBB8FC14 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:13:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iea17 with SMTP id 17so7554576iea.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:13:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=vuSQVuHVaH9Cw4GtXLow3TmYyoH9BJwlCl1GecIXnf0=; b=lYVRikhwVd9QGxo8gbuu5Tblb1MFXmcUF1h6wgCvkFGrAfFLF5Nk32WMwU6OGqkM/N qA4KwhI20ZPBp4n5vOEjHOoaAk9Ek9KM6+2JCnDb4gQFXT500utAOEBIS+pHPTenbQkC y1GLYJX9JL4IDeg5Uw3oCcIt5PSBK5+iqjkSAKKqDB3HsIhxUj3+cxTkHimRi2IIR2/0 p5YZKMRy4xplRHXCfu5hxKt4bgwCENkDOWopwk81bUz4XsJWGs4XraapWF88at4XxA63 wOjNGoennoB9Xsuma/AthVmy4ERvGgQ+oFUkNF+atmxcraM6hgdWk5dawzcBGcBn7ttC zeLQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.237.65 with SMTP id va1mr7952249igc.11.1347909207195; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.127.76 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:13:27 -0500 Message-ID: From: Zhihao Yuan To: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: My explanation to "a default DE" (was "Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD") X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:13:28 -0000 Hi, hackers: First, I'm not saying that I want an OS forcing you to installs a DE. If FreeBSD really does this, I'm going to switch to other BSDs :) The word "default" has nothing to do with "installed by default". It only means, when we are taking about "the" desktop environment under FreeBSD, we are referring to, for example, CDE. For the remaining part, I'll use ${DE} to indicate it. - Why we need it? For the past several years, many desktop environment becomes more and more Linux-only. For example, tt's becoming harder and harder to port Gnome to FreeBSD. NetworkManager is a GSoC project, automount is also hard. And since we don't use udev, the porting will become even harder is the predictable future. When people found that they have to use a less functional Gnome, they blame FreeBSD, not Gnome, not Linux. That's why we need a *default*, and *officially supported* DE. Since we have ${DE}, when people want to complain about their user experience with other DEs, we can simply say: we officially support ${DE}; you can choose others if you are pro. - What we can benefit from it? 1. Maximize graphical user experience by officially implementing Wifi helpers, auto-mounters; 2. Be more user friendly since we can put more details on GUI into the FreeBSD handbook; 3. Be nicer to FreeBSD-only developers. Their toolbar applets can claim themselves as "written for FreeBSD" if they support a particular applet protocol under ${DE}. - How we provide the ${DE}? 1. Show the information through out the official site, the handbook, bsdinstall (but do not forcefully install it). An additional FreeBSD GUI developers' handbook might be needed; 2. Leave the xorg, ${DE} in ports. We provide an alias for ${DE}, so that the users can use pkg_add desktop-environment to install ${DE}. 3. Implement the missing modern features, Wifi helpers, auto-mounters, etc., officially. That's all I want, without affecting any non-GUI users' experience, or any other non-${DE} users'. -- Zhihao Yuan, nickname lichray The best way to predict the future is to invent it. ___________________________________________________ 4BSD -- http://4bsd.biz/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 19:14:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F4E3106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:14:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthias@an3e.de) Received: from smtprelay04.ispgateway.de (smtprelay04.ispgateway.de [80.67.29.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A10E8FC21 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:14:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [92.225.211.174] (helo=mandree.no-ip.org) by smtprelay04.ispgateway.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1TDglE-0005ff-JR for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:13:36 +0200 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.emma.line.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B9F23CEDE for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:13:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5057765F.4080001@an3e.de> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:13:35 +0200 From: Matthias Andree User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120827 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Df-Sender: MTY1NTUxOA== X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:33:13 +0000 Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:14:15 -0000 Am 17.09.2012 17:35, schrieb Lorenzo Cogotti: > Hi, > I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official > supported graphical environment. > Currently FreeBSD doesn't provide any standard desktop environment, this > means that, in a way much similar to Linux, a developer cannot know in > advance which GUI will be available on the system. This leads to another > problem, again much similar to Linux, tools are usually provided in a > text based fashion only, because that's the only sure and reliable way a > tool can work in a relatively dependency free and independent way. As > another effect, many utilities and graphical tools are provided for a > toolkit, but not for another, needlessly duplicating efforts and > applications, achieving barely half the result. What is the particular problem? All major toolkits ultimately talk X11, and most applications that I have seen will work in any desktop environment. I for one prefer a reasonable text-tool to a half-baked playful GUI that leaves half of the questions unanswered because the author has no faint clue as to how to properly present a complex technical situation. > The idea would be choosing a default desktop environment and providing > it as the official supported way to develop GUI applications on FreeBSD, > thus tools provided on FreeBSD would be able to get official GUIs and > supported graphical tools in a standard and non-redundant fashion, like > a GUI for tools like pkgng, geli(8), gpart(8). This choice would also be > motivated by the fact that often technologies move toward Linux support, > like GNOME3, dbus and consolekit, without taking into account BSD. As though someone cared. End users could not care less, they just want their stuff to work and get the job done. You don't get developers just because you follow an obsolete standard. If you want to make sure that the tools that you'd like to see not "move toward[s] Linux support", then (a) make sure they are aware there's more than their favourite Linux distro, (b) help them out. Regarding Linux dependencies, there are few and far between, and most features do not rely on particular kernel support -- and where they do, abstracting that, or providing FreeBSD support, is far more useful than trying to make someone follow a desktop that died a decade ago. Popularity matters in open source. Particularly with desktops. -- Matthias Andree From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 19:50:40 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 898EF106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:50:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sdaoden@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wg0-f50.google.com (mail-wg0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 177398FC0A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:50:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wgi16 with SMTP id 16so1106223wgi.31 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:50:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:references:in-reply-to:user-agent :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DmtOMw8Fjl90n1HLBWmnM/Krg1qrokgc3h2ZkWauNvI=; b=TUS1HRN/Sik1cegXpK7Ki/shQWfWbEKLVWIVtXR9RmcepksH8cO8TLkIESvaGWbb8u qqCh4zh4hZrEHX90MI43tSXJrR+hxPMjo6JLzmvIvVQDfA7jBsmjzF5TOWoedhm/HgJO tX1zT/OBiSSQSqADt9tcf3JryNfOizo/pYhsED6OFZo/PW3I7f1nuSFX97skiLHgG7xP D3papzFAdG4LoQPyPO5XVe6HQw7748nEZuPX7ElMolswK18BkiZJZTlDmFd6/CFxTwyh zihgH584w4Z3NiWL/YvmtnXRmMfwFUVCA9t05IslkUxIZRry6Rc0BHiuyB5LivScwYIV fV2Q== Received: by 10.216.198.144 with SMTP id v16mr932059wen.68.1347911438726; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dietcurd.wild-life.local ([89.204.137.158]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id el6sm19238989wib.8.2012.09.17.12.50.36 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:50:34 +0200 From: Steffen "Daode" Nurpmeso To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <50577f0a.TlvZ/9QC1A0IFofPYai2MUvl@dietcurd.wild-life.local> References: <5057765F.4080001@an3e.de> In-Reply-To: <5057765F.4080001@an3e.de> User-Agent: S-nail <12.5 7/5/10;s-nail-12-g80ec976> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:50:40 -0000 |> Hi, |> I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official |> supported graphical environment. What i really miss compared to 4.* and 5.3 (and compared to NetBSD and OpenBSD) is that there is a single package with a known name that can be downloaded and unpacked and you have a X11 environment to go. I have not searched the archives for the "when" and "why" of the decision to drop it. But its absence really hurts me. --steffen From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 19:36:29 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132921065670 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:36:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthias@an3e.de) Received: from smtprelay01.ispgateway.de (smtprelay01.ispgateway.de [80.67.31.39]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9112B8FC0A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:36:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [92.225.211.174] (helo=mandree.no-ip.org) by smtprelay01.ispgateway.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1TDgw0-0006MA-8U for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:24:44 +0200 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.emma.line.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E6823CEDE for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:24:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <505778FB.1010507@an3e.de> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:24:43 +0200 From: Matthias Andree User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120827 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20120917161427.GB11773@e-new.0x20.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Df-Sender: MTY1NTUxOA== X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:53:45 +0000 Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:36:29 -0000 Am 17.09.2012 19:51, schrieb Lorenzo Cogotti: > Il 17/09/2012 19:26, Adrian Chadd ha scritto: >> What are you trying to achieve? >> >> Are you trying to write a set of utilities for FreeBSD that are GUI in >> nature? And you'd like to know which toolkit is "blessed" for a >> consistent, integrated feel and development environment? >> >> >> >> Adrian >> > > Right now I was interested in creating a desktop oriented automounter, > in order to experiment with devd (I don't know if something useful will > actually come out of it). I then faced the problem that there are lots > of GUI toolkits, lots of scenarios to take into account, lots of desktop > environments available, basically the problem is the same that Linux has > with its non existing userland. Meaning that you have not separated the issues that matter: (A) the actual automounting stuff, with details such as user permissions, (B) from the graphical presentation, (C) from the integration into desktops. These are segregated concerns! The XDG and freedesktop stuff, like it or not, managed to get some arrangements made that are followed by GNOME and KDE, for instance. Oh, and yes, someone has to make choices and decisions here. If you want to continue letting people choose freely, this will not ever change. > A FreeBSD project (like geli or gpart) could even go as far as providing > an official GUI utility next to the text based utility, without hoping > for the specific desktop project to provide it (like devd integration). Who cares - the stuff you name is required so early in the boot process that you will create a nice hen-and-egg problem around which file system you have the gazillion of GUI files in. And possibly providing a working abstraction that just has a sane API is far more useful than any of your talk about graphics and desktops. -- Matthias Andree From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 19:57:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66646106566C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:57:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miciamail@hotmail.it) Received: from blu0-omc2-s14.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc2-s14.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.89]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4358FC12 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:57:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BLU0-SMTP206 ([65.55.111.71]) by blu0-omc2-s14.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:55:54 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [78.13.110.33] X-EIP: [Xmia5uOw5NhloHMuz+Dn24rFRjXtujPQ] X-Originating-Email: [miciamail@hotmail.it] Message-ID: Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([78.13.110.33]) by BLU0-SMTP206.blu0.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:55:52 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:52:02 +0200 From: Lorenzo Cogotti User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120729 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <5057765F.4080001@an3e.de> In-Reply-To: <5057765F.4080001@an3e.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Sep 2012 19:55:53.0033 (UTC) FILETIME=[71867390:01CD950E] Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:57:01 -0000 Il 17/09/2012 21:13, Matthias Andree ha scritto: > > What is the particular problem? All major toolkits ultimately talk X11, > and most applications that I have seen will work in any desktop environment. Working with any desktop environments is different than working well, taking full advantage of the desktop environment. I could use GTK on KDE, but could I easily stream a sound using phonon? Could I easily integrate that application with the KDE control center? What if somebody else wrote a very useful utility for FreeBSD that manages something, but it's targeted over KDE? I'm talking about desktop integration and ease to code, not about showing a window in both KDE and GNOME. > I for one prefer a reasonable text-tool to a half-baked playful GUI that > leaves half of the questions unanswered because the author has no faint > clue as to how to properly present a complex technical situation. Fine, that's a choice, I doubt text based utilities will ever fade away. Despite this, a user that likes a GUI more than a text utility can't have it, because having a GUI on FreeBSD is almost a sin :-) I think having an official and documented desktop could show that FreeBSD has nothing against GUIs (which doesn't automatically imply it hates text based utilities) and could ease programming for developers. > As though someone cared. End users could not care less, they just want > their stuff to work and get the job done. > > You don't get developers just because you follow an obsolete standard. Which obsolete standard? On UNIX there is no standard, that's why I'd like one :-) > If you want to make sure that the tools that you'd like to see not "move > toward[s] Linux support", then (a) make sure they are aware there's more > than their favourite Linux distro, (b) help them out. There are no tool I'd like to have on FreeBSD, I am just sharing an idea that I think could improve FreeBSD, I could be wrong of course. I think having a standard could help more in the future rather than right now. > Regarding Linux dependencies, there are few and far between, and most > features do not rely on particular kernel support -- and where they do, > abstracting that, or providing FreeBSD support, is far more useful than > trying to make someone follow a desktop that died a decade ago. CDE was an example, as I said the idea is desktop agnostic, if you find KDE4 more suitable for the task, so be it, Xfce would also work, just pick one. Linux dependencies are increasing day by day, udev being one, consolekit being dismissed in favour of systemd, which is also Linux only, wayland will also need to be implemented on FreeBSD (if it will ever work), and so on. Having just one supported desktop would serve exactly to the purpose of porting the utilities to FreeBSD, since, once done, other developers can see how it was implemented and how it works, and eventually port them to their desktop environments with a fraction of the effort that would be needed otherwise. > Popularity matters in open source. Particularly with desktops. > Even the userbase/time spent developing ratio matters. What also matters is the interest that a system shows in something, I think it's obvious that FreeBSD can't get much attention as a desktop system if no effort is put into it. It is not a bad thing being tied to the server concept, but I just think FreeBSD would also be an excellent desktop system with a little effort. -- Lorenzo Cogotti From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 20:04:05 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27FB41065672 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:04:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marc@msys.ch) Received: from sleipnir.msys.ch (unknown [IPv6:2001:4060:c0de:f000::3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA888FC08 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:04:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.msys.ch (smtp.msys.ch [157.161.101.10]) by sleipnir.msys.ch (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q8HK41mr015140 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:04:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from macbook-mb-wlan.vnode.ch (macbook-mb-wlan.vnode.ch [87.102.253.81]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.msys.ch (8.14.3/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q8HK41TX014079 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:04:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <50578231.3060607@msys.ch> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:04:01 +0200 From: Marc Balmer Organization: micro systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <62954.1347896564@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <62954.1347896564@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SMTP-Vilter-Version: 1.3.6 X-Spamd-Symbols: AWL,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:04:05 -0000 Am 17.09.12 17:42, schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp: > In message , Lorenzo Cogotti writ > es: >> Hi, >> I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official >> supported graphical environment. > > We already do: It's called "X11" :-) and for the fun of it: CDE has been opensourced (though "only" under the LGPL) and OpenMotif will follow shortly, also under the LGPL (and no longer that strange OpenMotif license). From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 20:05:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E4D106566C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:05:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mexas@bristol.ac.uk) Received: from dirj.bris.ac.uk (dirj.bris.ac.uk [137.222.10.78]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821568FC19 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:05:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ncsc.bris.ac.uk ([137.222.10.41]) by dirj.bris.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TDhYy-0004O1-8j; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:05:00 +0100 Received: from mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk ([137.222.187.241]) by ncsc.bris.ac.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TDhYx-0005xg-IZ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:04:59 +0100 Received: from mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8HK4x0A067064; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:04:59 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mexas@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk) Received: (from mexas@localhost) by mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q8HK4wUH067063; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:04:58 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mexas) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:04:58 +0100 (BST) From: Anton Shterenlikht Message-Id: <201209172004.q8HK4wUH067063@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, mwm@mired.org In-Reply-To: <20120917120626.51369945@bhuda.mired.org> Cc: Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: mexas@bristol.ac.uk List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:05:01 -0000 Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/ mwm? Why! It's my preferred WM, part of x11-toolkits/open-motif. Talk about coincidences! From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 20:22:47 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EABB91065710 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:22:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oa0-f54.google.com (mail-oa0-f54.google.com [209.85.219.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7BB38FC12 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:22:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by oagm1 with SMTP id m1so6553922oag.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:22:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=9fdc7mehqGPcgddFaU9yzBLYa3TbDdl0QJHCQJF2X4U=; b=TQYqVuPaHOOyQEgIxzHyjxuDyoXl0RDmK9q6aQlD1cuPezQ+9lZaVLWtZ5P2hNx9WK ROOfoIHoX3e7FFK9Q9XkelqO0OshziJZjSXUkQ3JLpaXe0JPuGfCI3f2okWjOLP8dJT8 g2LxPOlbOLMqcO/rHfjRKYbrjczLO3aGfwugo7204rZxjuMkDixC7CgdcOI8FtByyTl1 2vM356oamEZ7FnZ6bj82ew97F6/gy2Jl+xV5bOKEjDY7deHZHGB/qfXr8LICb3eeAebm kPZ7b0+0DSmx+iDQIeqElI+5qjbKNrYYwa1tKhGrG5wvqjY/EtpnkahQ9FzHTJq1rmrL Ox/g== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.171.69 with SMTP id as5mr13190649oec.100.1347913366219; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.142.201 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:22:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <63507.1347905101@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:22:46 -0700 Message-ID: From: Garrett Cooper To: Lorenzo Cogotti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:22:47 -0000 On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Lorenzo Cogotti wrote: > Il 17/09/2012 20:32, Garrett Cooper ha scritto: >> *gathers breath for really tangential/OT rant* >> >> >> Sounds like we have someone volunteering to write a chapter in the >> handbook and do some X11 development to make Gnome, KDE, XFCE, LXDE, >> Fluxbox, [...], or etc work better on FreeBSD! >> > If I proposed it, is because I'm willing to offer my help implementing > my idea if it gets attention :-) >> >> To be succinct: this is not OSX/Windows. True Unix and Unix clones can >> be decoupled from a desktop environment enough that forcing everyone >> to have one choice for desktop user experience doesn't make sense, and >> the fact that there isn't a common GUI development toolkit (GTK, QT, >> etc) encourages fragmentation of effort further (I think it's called >> the Bazaar model of development :P). > As I tried to make clear, I *don't want* to limit user's freedom in any > way, nor getting away UNIX philosophy in any way from FreeBSD, nor > trying to remove servers or other desktop environments solutions in any way. > Solaris and other UNIces had CDE as their default environment, this was > not preventing a perfectly written toolkit that used X server to run > there, it wasn't preventing users from tearing away the GUI part and > using it without it. > My only objective is estabilishing a standard, just saying "you want to > make a GUI application for FreeBSD? You are asking yourself what desktop > environment will work for sure on FreeBSD? There you have it, Blah DE > works just well and is perfectly documented." ... To cut things short because this is really turning into a bikeshed: go talk to the folks at PCBSD. They are interested in using providing a graphically oriented version of FreeBSD and have multiple DEs distributed with their custom FreeBSD distribution. See if you can work with them to achieve your goals and then upstream the result to the upstream maintainers, or create a subproject that can be used in ports and/or elsewhere, then work with the PCBSD/FreeBSD devs to integrate your work into ports. I'm also sure that if you have something that hasn't been developed yet that's useful you will get more than a handful of Linux-oriented devs who will be interested in assisting you in making the application/applet available in more than one OS. Thanks, -Garrett PS It's not that I don't care about the effort (I run straight FreeBSD with fluxbox/X11 on my workstation at $work and my Netbook), but unless people put their money where their mouth is, this will just turn into another "it would be nice to have FreeBSD do X-Y-Z" threads that have not actually resulted in anything actually changing :(... From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 20:23:13 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C782B1065680 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:23:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1447D8FC18 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:23:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id XAA09054 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:23:11 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1TDhqZ-0002Jo-2P for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:23:11 +0300 Message-ID: <505786AC.9010302@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:23:08 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120913 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=X-VIET-VPS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: serial console "detection" during boot X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:23:14 -0000 Guys, what do you think of the following two diffs? Most likely I overdid various checks in libi386/comconsole.c. And, obviously, the RETRY_COUNT value is pulled out of thin air. Any help and suggestions are very welcome. With this patch I am able to boot with boot_multicons="YES" console="vidconsole,comconsole" in loader.conf on hardware where serial ports are disabled in BIOS. Previously loader would just hang trying to apply the console setting. commit 60b4e960550229fb93efe98f5f5a386814c84652 Author: Andriy Gapon Date: Sun Sep 16 11:01:00 2012 +0300 boot/console: don't activate console if it's not able to probe diff --git a/sys/boot/common/console.c b/sys/boot/common/console.c index d140a96..28ae23a 100644 --- a/sys/boot/common/console.c +++ b/sys/boot/common/console.c @@ -218,8 +218,11 @@ cons_change(const char *string) continue; cons = cons_find(curpos); if (cons >= 0) { - consoles[cons]->c_flags |= C_ACTIVEIN | C_ACTIVEOUT; - consoles[cons]->c_init(0); + if ((consoles[cons]->c_flags & (C_PRESENTIN | C_PRESENTOUT)) == + (C_PRESENTIN | C_PRESENTOUT)) { + consoles[cons]->c_flags |= C_ACTIVEIN | C_ACTIVEOUT; + consoles[cons]->c_init(0); + } } } commit 54da1b554eef3f88fb15ea481f48f5a83375203d Author: Andriy Gapon Date: Sun Sep 16 11:03:04 2012 +0300 boot/i386/comconsole: probe hardware presence with limited number of attempts ... to initialize it. diff --git a/sys/boot/i386/libi386/comconsole.c b/sys/boot/i386/libi386/comconsole.c index bf0d67b..82e46ae 100644 --- a/sys/boot/i386/libi386/comconsole.c +++ b/sys/boot/i386/libi386/comconsole.c @@ -59,7 +59,7 @@ static int comc_pcidev_set(struct env_var *ev, int flags, static int comc_pcidev_handle(uint32_t locator); static int comc_port_set(struct env_var *ev, int flags, const void *value); -static void comc_setup(int speed, int port); +static int comc_setup(int speed, int port); static int comc_speed_set(struct env_var *ev, int flags, const void *value); @@ -137,18 +137,23 @@ comc_probe(struct console *cp) env_setenv("comconsole_pcidev", EV_VOLATILE, env, comc_pcidev_set, env_nounset); } + (void)comc_init(0); } static int comc_init(int arg) { if (comc_started && arg == 0) - return 0; - comc_started = 1; - - comc_setup(comc_curspeed, comc_port); + return (CMD_OK); - return(0); + if (comc_setup(comc_curspeed, comc_port) == CMD_OK) { + comc_started = 1; + comconsole.c_flags |= (C_PRESENTIN | C_PRESENTOUT); + return (CMD_OK); + } + comc_started = 0; + comconsole.c_flags &= ~(C_PRESENTIN | C_PRESENTOUT); + return (CMD_ERROR); } static void @@ -156,6 +161,8 @@ comc_putchar(int c) { int wait; + if (!comc_started) + return; for (wait = COMC_TXWAIT; wait > 0; wait--) if (inb(comc_port + com_lsr) & LSR_TXRDY) { outb(comc_port + com_data, (u_char)c); @@ -166,13 +173,17 @@ comc_putchar(int c) static int comc_getchar(void) { - return(comc_ischar() ? inb(comc_port + com_data) : -1); + if (!comc_started) + return (-1); + return (comc_ischar() ? inb(comc_port + com_data) : -1); } static int comc_ischar(void) { - return(inb(comc_port + com_lsr) & LSR_RXRDY); + if (!comc_started) + return (0); + return (inb(comc_port + com_lsr) & LSR_RXRDY); } static int @@ -314,9 +325,11 @@ comc_pcidev_set(struct env_var *ev, int flags, const void *value) return (CMD_OK); } -static void +static int comc_setup(int speed, int port) { + static int TRY_COUNT = 1000000; + int tries; comc_curspeed = speed; comc_port = port; @@ -327,9 +340,11 @@ comc_setup(int speed, int port) outb(comc_port + com_cfcr, COMC_FMT); outb(comc_port + com_mcr, MCR_RTS | MCR_DTR); + tries = 0; do inb(comc_port + com_data); - while (inb(comc_port + com_lsr) & LSR_RXRDY); + while (inb(comc_port + com_lsr) & LSR_RXRDY && ++tries < TRY_COUNT); + return (tries < TRY_COUNT ? CMD_OK : CMD_ERROR); } static int -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 20:38:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 820DF106566C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:38:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fjwcash@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F108FC12 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:38:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lage12 with SMTP id e12so5506490lag.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:38:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=8+51MFi0auoHkj/b48yCIcwRvm8tdCkIDi+d5VdKZGo=; b=BWHhBP8bzu36L4y7uBmsiksfoB5A3whFbnvGK69vONGRRoOHO22gt7Ax40HEJApTCJ yIfIO9bWlvYE2CV4XjY7uep6ICa+QTnjz4NzXSEvJ44GnKR8FJW3WQXE135wZOCjJeLN GGO4FQufafRkG4vxv8kpihHnIZHnyTawADr1KHOcIEPL0u0mYGlaCRdAt5DSYq0opfCp ZGYolA3+nxfTGAnDsR296zM6ulGO6Bvc4SKk/384rWUqvHElY6IjwOXshuS55R0/vVai C8GVKADhgK3RI46Eij7EQorEgQIRR8HGp81OhOy5LsgipWCCV0Sp90+MCbhnL4TSB4i+ K93g== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.110.9 with SMTP id hw9mr10642612lab.55.1347914317647; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.23.230 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:38:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <50577f0a.TlvZ/9QC1A0IFofPYai2MUvl@dietcurd.wild-life.local> References: <5057765F.4080001@an3e.de> <50577f0a.TlvZ/9QC1A0IFofPYai2MUvl@dietcurd.wild-life.local> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:38:37 -0700 Message-ID: From: Freddie Cash To: Steffen Daode Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:38:39 -0000 On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Steffen Daode wrote: > |> Hi, > |> I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official > |> supported graphical environment. > > What i really miss compared to 4.* and 5.3 (and compared to NetBSD > and OpenBSD) is that there is a single package with a known name > that can be downloaded and unpacked and you have a X11 environment > to go. > > I have not searched the archives for the "when" and "why" of the > decision to drop it. But its absence really hurts me. Rant and rave to the Xorg developers. With the release of Xorg 7 they broke it up into a bazillion separate packages, each with their own development cycle, releases, packaging, etc. Xorg "releases" are now nothing more than a snapshot of the various sub-packages that's slightly bug/beta tested together. There's really no difference between Xorg development and Linux distro development. :( There's really nothing that FreeBSD devs can do about this unless they want to fork Xorg completely. -- Freddie Cash fjwcash@gmail.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 20:55:34 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E184B106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:55:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: from mail-oa0-f54.google.com (mail-oa0-f54.google.com [209.85.219.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965BD8FC19 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:55:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by oagm1 with SMTP id m1so6592801oag.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:55:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=user-agent:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:subject:from:date:to:message-id :x-gm-message-state; bh=CnUVatHI7VdQvNW6I4zXXbFxeUwqJILtPCt1VEo8mig=; b=W8VVERU2AgGo+ndFOl6ImPo+r0VLL6um58/uLH+QyrL3eOb7XRwZJmYI149gfz6A6N kr51dFgPpA+ON0uBxB6auw8WyOfdPgt7BqJ2OnN0pjjUXxJUFC9kVKu8wzDAIsU4d743 R4SAHxdRjU0kRSiNd9YBWF35DLQ6vktxIYe/97pSBDJmGgMpiCISqJWkthuoQXSbIBlN RzrjAzOq6covz/XFYDtF8TvEs0Q8JhKXrRCMYRzVi1qmzFusar7Fz517mNipddAqj0aV 5ubr8cZUAnlHp08Q/etEXRymeobokd6lDQBd7PfUxF3sPdd2lPfM+NnahfOqqJbpu2W/ CYpQ== Received: by 10.60.172.19 with SMTP id ay19mr12839549oec.68.1347915333661; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from android-17cbdb9246b29c31.mired.org (ip72-200-195-210.ok.ok.cox.net. [72.200.195.210]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ac8sm11890253obc.11.2012.09.17.13.55.31 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:55:32 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <63507.1347905101@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Mike Meyer Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:55:28 -0500 To: Lorenzo Cogotti ,freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <780dc598-48eb-4bb8-9585-3a9c551fbb80@email.android.com> X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkSWfb5aQzRj9qTUQNObjAqHMiuRfRSNnu/88i291U+iyyt8A+4BfPWU8RKQbxPiiqt5OjU Cc: Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:55:35 -0000 Lorenzo Cogotti wrote: >Il 17/09/2012 20:32, Garrett Cooper ha scritto: >> *gathers breath for really tangential/OT rant* >> >> >> Sounds like we have someone volunteering to write a chapter in the >> handbook and do some X11 development to make Gnome, KDE, XFCE, LXDE, >> Fluxbox, [...], or etc work better on FreeBSD! >> >If I proposed it, is because I'm willing to offer my help implementing >my idea if it gets attention :-) You requested that this work be done. Then you did it again in several places, the first one being here: >My only objective is estabilishing a standard, just saying "you want to >make a GUI application for FreeBSD? You are asking yourself what >desktop >environment will work for sure on FreeBSD? There you have it, Blah DE >works just well and is perfectly documented." Without someone actually *doing the work* of making sure that SunDEW or whatever works well and is perfectly documented, then declaring "Our preferred DE is SunDEW" is pointless. Being willing to help is all well and good, but until there's someone taking point that you can help, it won't do any good. Personally, I don't think FreeBSD needs this. It'd be nice to have, but it's not critical, since most FreeeBSD systems run without an X server at all, and many of what's left just need enough support to run a terminal emulator, clock and browser. >- You want to use FreeBSD official environment? >Good, you'll get official utilities for FreeBSD and you are ensured a >certain amount of support and stability from your system, since that's >the official environment. And who's going to write these? Just declaring a standard won't make them magically appear, and won't make developers who prefer something else suddenly start writing for the standard. >- You are a developer wanting to build some FreeBSD desktop utilities? >Unless you want to specifically target your utility to a desktop >environment, you have documentation, guidelines and support for the >official desktop environment. You are also able to interact with the >rest of the desktop (for example creating a GUI configuration editor, a >taskbar icon or simply stream a sound). You can also communicate with >other official desktop utilities, since (official utilities) are all >targeted for this environment, you can, for example, create a >partitioning tool and other utilities can communicate with it nicely >(because it is well documented and easy to find out). As above. >So I can't see how bad this is, it simply looks as a nice to have >standard to me, exactly like POSIX, even if UNIX has the bazaar >philosophy, you still offer POSIX compatibility and X server as sane >defaults. It's not a bad thing. It's just pointless until there's someone willing to do the work to make it happen. Since it's always going to be in ports (because it will require X or similar), the previously suggested path of working with the PCBSD people (who actually want to support a desktop environment) to develop it and then get it integrated into ports is a good one. -- Sent from my Android tablet with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my swyping. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 21:04:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 276DE106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:04:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mad@madpilot.net) Received: from micro.madpilot.net (micro.madpilot.net [88.149.173.206]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85FD68FC0A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:04:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from micro.madpilot.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by micro.madpilot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3XLKbL54QQz2rv; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:04:46 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=madpilot.net; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:in-reply-to :references:subject:subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:from :date:date:message-id:received:received; s=mail; t=1347915884; x=1349730285; bh=+4cDyOZ6obt+xigPteEsjNxUAfvkQF+Z7F+M5uPp2AU=; b= AddcVZFNDliZDy5hQAXyf4IYygDGQ+24EnZqv62PHBgrjD5CBMsVm0McARNphiN8 uxR6Zwa+GEHqkr6SCP2WeVFHtckJCxGMWreJBlqCbkq+ex5U0zAHkAjGcya8Xu6H gCPuv6iG42e87Lvmt7NLZ3eWshxsuf7qNJfmgWzjBUk= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at madpilot.net Received: from micro.madpilot.net ([127.0.0.1]) by micro.madpilot.net (micro.madpilot.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zbMg5WBnKiQI; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:04:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tommy.madpilot.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by micro.madpilot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:04:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5057906C.9090002@madpilot.net> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:04:44 +0200 From: Guido Falsi User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120912 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Zhihao Yuan References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: My explanation to "a default DE" (was "Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD") X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:04:55 -0000 On 09/17/12 21:13, Zhihao Yuan wrote: > 1. Maximize graphical user experience by officially implementing Wifi > helpers, auto-mounters; I think your examples are ill conceived. A good automounter definitely does not need a GUI. What I think of as a autmounter should just be some kind of background process managing devices and mounts. Something like AMD with a sane configuration and some better ability to detect mobile devices appearing and disappearing(bonus points for figuring out how to sync a filesystem after relevant storage device has already been unplugged...Having a button to unmount it is just another way to do "umount /media/foo" and no real solution to the problem...And there are already various such toys in the ports collection). (And no, I have no idea how to do that, but I'm "getting things done" on my systems with a mix of AMD and sysutils/automount, I will move to a better setup if I find one or ever find time to conjure one myself) The GUI is just an additional component of that, once you have that (difficult) part the GUI can be added...in fact more than one for the many toolkits/DEs can be coded in fraction of the effort needed for the main part. Same goes for wifi. I'd really like to have more control on wpa_supplicant and friends and be able to reconfigure it on the fly with just a few commands/clicks, which is not so simple right now, but the background part is one thing the GUI is another. BTW for this case too there is a whole set of problems due to authorizations. various other OSes have solved this in many ways, most common solution used to be to just make every user "root"(or whatever the other OS calls it ;) Also, you should also have a look at net-mgmt/wifimgr if you really can't do without a mouse. If the point you're stating is about functionality that's my opinion. If you're talking about common look and feel and eyecandy then I have no opinion since I don't really understand that and so don't care. What is really important to me is that system tools be fully usable via terminal and with human manageable text configuration files. A GUI only autmounter is just a toy. a good automounter daemon with an API for a GUI could be a great thing for all users, server, desktop, embedded... -- Guido Falsi From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 21:20:16 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3F5F106564A; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:20:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oa0-f54.google.com (mail-oa0-f54.google.com [209.85.219.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A186A8FC0C; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:20:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: by oagm1 with SMTP id m1so6619802oag.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:20:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1J6cRCWxniShThdkS0e6DUuF17zZOMl8Glge1fYmwn8=; b=BpbUJ3f6agFHk3gzlvCeN/WgNPOldPs8s0xKejKT+dmRu5AW+f7eJ/CNYNXesRRHLD m1c+gqOb7cS/iRp0F3O5zXZM4RoDGUuF2u37tEWlbSxqsbVUxXz61M+z9uzDLx/0a2Lt +Zpi4SB22oM0SOnH58wZpW2aaDVrrKyQ1wiq0EdRAy8JKDupV3SNFBQUfX2ZVG4TpBhn 3RtCtwQ7n8Cn5VIjtCzlCHe0VyMKRdvAgppNjXUThWI/1AZ9WpkyVSHBPsiNPMczL3B5 Y22LfPSONDonbNNBehZ9NRQqsVBs0/XGu3N1ymGEWfQZsAGBolCc1FGHgpIxpY9Dm3sA AW9w== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.13.232 with SMTP id k8mr12944824oec.81.1347916814984; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.142.201 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:20:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9332B40A-BBCC-4004-B2B0-4A51091AFF3C@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:20:14 -0700 Message-ID: From: Garrett Cooper To: Chris Rees Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: [RFC] Add *.orig/*.rej to svn:ignore in src? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:20:16 -0000 On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Chris Rees wrote: > On 16 September 2012 10:11, Garrett Cooper wrote: >> I noticed that we have a handful of patterns currently ignored i= n svn:ignore (at least at the top-level=85 the lower levels don't appear to= be set in any particular manner): >> >> $ svn propget svn:ignore >> _.tinderbox.* >> _.amd64.* >> _.arm.* >> _.i386.* >> _.ia64.* >> _.mips.* >> _.pc98.* >> _.powerpc.* >> _.sparc64.* >> _.sun4v.* >> >> $ svn info | grep URL: >> URL: http://svn.freebsd.org/base/head >> >> I was wondering if *.orig and *.rej should be added to the list = as well to avoid checking in patch `artifact` files? > > Do you have an example where this has happened? I don't offhand; it was just a hypothetical issue that I considered might occur in the future if someone wasn't careful. Thanks! -Garrett From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 21:24:30 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 599B2106566C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:24:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miciamail@hotmail.it) Received: from blu0-omc2-s29.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc2-s29.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.104]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FBDF8FC0A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:24:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BLU0-SMTP69 ([65.55.111.72]) by blu0-omc2-s29.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:23:22 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [78.13.110.33] X-EIP: [JMqJVb0U0dK0KLPEJ6FI5Lvq0ONJfra0] X-Originating-Email: [miciamail@hotmail.it] Message-ID: Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([78.13.110.33]) by BLU0-SMTP69.blu0.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:23:21 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:19:30 +0200 From: Lorenzo Cogotti User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120729 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer References: <63507.1347905101@critter.freebsd.dk> <780dc598-48eb-4bb8-9585-3a9c551fbb80@email.android.com> In-Reply-To: <780dc598-48eb-4bb8-9585-3a9c551fbb80@email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Sep 2012 21:23:21.0833 (UTC) FILETIME=[AA0DC590:01CD951A] Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:24:30 -0000 Il 17/09/2012 22:55, Mike Meyer ha scritto: > You requested that this work be done. Then you did it again in several places, the first one being here: > [...] Maybe I did (as you might notice my English is not very good :) ), but I thought it was clear that I'd like to cooperate in this. > Without someone actually *doing the work* of making sure that SunDEW or whatever works well and is perfectly documented, then declaring "Our preferred DE is SunDEW" is pointless. [...] Yes, there must be some work done of course, it requires some effort.. >> - You want to use FreeBSD official environment? >> Good, you'll get official utilities for FreeBSD and you are ensured a >> certain amount of support and stability from your system, since that's >> the official environment. > And who's going to write these? Just declaring a standard won't make them magically appear, and won't make developers who prefer something else suddenly start writing for the standard. It's standard for FreeBSD, so I guess that work should be done by the documentation team or by some developer. That's why I wanted to discuss it in the mailing list, because it can't be an isolated effort. The major benefit would be for FreeBSD to start supporting desktop environments by providing GUI implementations of their tools, rather than text only ones, of course third party devs could use whatever they want (though they could be encouraged by the documentation to use that one for their FreeBSD projects). > It's not a bad thing. It's just pointless until there's someone > willing to do the work to make it happen. Since it's always going to > be in ports (because it will require X or similar), the previously > suggested path of working with the PCBSD people (who actually want to > support a desktop environment) to develop it and then get it > integrated into ports is a good one. Well, the idea was making FreeBSD more friendly over desktop installations, I was hesitant into using PCBSD for this because I just like FreeBSD ports system and package management much more, as I like the fact that it's closer to UNIX (in my opinion). I cannot say I expected a good "welcoming" of this suggestion, but I thought it was worth discussing it anyway :) Thanks for sharing your opinions on this. -- Lorenzo Cogotti From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 21:26:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5451065672 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:26:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com (mail-pb0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 681E68FC15 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:26:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbbrp2 with SMTP id rp2so10475963pbb.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:26:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=44bYDSaZxMtejXk0engnW+8Emg7yHsJZjgw1lMKElkA=; b=TWVmnJURw+CA1lTI2DajLN9v8fKQKTukr/05xUXt57HSxnJpenhtmqg5znX9PXo+PC vQ8fAlbL8s4hSE3qvLRbdGammKuTOwSOGwlEDTUKd+vBPSYrq8vJNI41GbNm0O7W4/nK 1AvVpcpyd05fHXch38uGHYSpO+hWMlXMeyDqo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state; bh=44bYDSaZxMtejXk0engnW+8Emg7yHsJZjgw1lMKElkA=; b=N3SvVZ/7A9gXIcGi+LwYINioFY+/YSUm8R9vfiT5KPCtW07GesPgGEPIp7Ym6JJ/LE ndZNsSCq7sjLNrY4DlnTtUsgpNqF0lmRqte5eyGWpCJa216Rpecy7D7Q3a07B5S6BUyB O8QGSXQtG78h9DkgSOMsPJJJKLBJm4Mx9rlI+GZnGjQI60kGJoFvuNTUT5uvQUbhGkQo p/ap1TXZ32TxpLl1bqLm//zYzbtQw3S/vD8rrD50WjaSGqZmCRUpl93KfnIQFeaP1wTf T6q7Zr8oMiCDdKHyvwHrevgrjrDSCzZXwFUJcHj5Yz1oVRmjuw1jKz2fDGf2H8441pHX j8zA== Received: by 10.68.224.73 with SMTP id ra9mr24428904pbc.85.1347917168853; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:26:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.87.41 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:25:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9332B40A-BBCC-4004-B2B0-4A51091AFF3C@gmail.com> From: Eitan Adler Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:25:38 -0400 Message-ID: To: Garrett Cooper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmE2vPSYa2jZ3GDtME4T1kRShqIwhDBilaKRS4V304UWunEdGGTpGRtdMh4mgSLbqd1BOMV Cc: Chris Rees , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: [RFC] Add *.orig/*.rej to svn:ignore in src? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:26:09 -0000 On 17 September 2012 17:20, Garrett Cooper wrote: > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Chris Rees wrote: >> On 16 September 2012 10:11, Garrett Cooper wrote: >>> I noticed that we have a handful of patterns currently ignored = in svn:ignore (at least at the top-level=E2=80=A6 the lower levels don't ap= pear to be set in any particular manner): >>> >>> $ svn propget svn:ignore >>> _.tinderbox.* >>> _.amd64.* >>> _.arm.* >>> _.i386.* >>> _.ia64.* >>> _.mips.* >>> _.pc98.* >>> _.powerpc.* >>> _.sparc64.* >>> _.sun4v.* >>> >>> $ svn info | grep URL: >>> URL: http://svn.freebsd.org/base/head >>> >>> I was wondering if *.orig and *.rej should be added to the list= as well to avoid checking in patch `artifact` files? >> >> Do you have an example where this has happened? > > I don't offhand; it was just a hypothetical issue that I > considered might occur in the future if someone wasn't careful. +1 to including this. I imagine its relatively easy to make the mistake and its useful to have in the global ignores. While here should we include *.core and *.o too? [0] [0] my personal ignore file is quite large, but these might be generally us= eful --=20 Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 21:31:03 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1111065670 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:31:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from crmartin@sgi.com) Received: from relay.sgi.com (relay3.sgi.com [192.48.152.1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 936688FC19 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:31:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from xmail.sgi.com (pv-excas2-dc21.corp.sgi.com [137.38.102.196]) by relay3.corp.sgi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 716BBAC003 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:22:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.3.0.222] (10.3.0.222) by xmail.sgi.com (137.38.102.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.318.1; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:21:59 -0500 Message-ID: <50579477.20604@corp.sgi.com> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:21:59 -0600 From: Charles R Martin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120825 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.3.0.222] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:38:07 +0000 Subject: FreeBSD 8.0 suddenly freezing X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:31:03 -0000 We have a web host installation using FreeBSD 8.0, Tomcat, and Java. We ship many copies of this, and haven't changed the OS load in several months. In the last 72 hours, we've had two different systems freeze; they don't apparently recognize any interrupts, they won't respond to ping, and they require a powercycle to reboot. We can't easily generate an NMI on these boxes. No crashdumps were generated. Just on the off chance, does this sound like a familiar -- and preferably soluble -- problem? Regards Charlie Martin SGI, Inc. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 21:47:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F8DB1065670 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:47:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from millenia2000@hotmail.com) Received: from bay0-omc2-s11.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc2-s11.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.190.86]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005B68FC0A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:47:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BAY165-DS20 ([65.54.190.123]) by bay0-omc2-s11.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:46:01 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [67.166.186.134] X-EIP: [EE4uWYFKjUhqxFyaZajSisjRHOzqnXNO] X-Originating-Email: [millenia2000@hotmail.com] Message-ID: From: Sean Cavanaugh To: "'Zhihao Yuan'" , "'Mike Meyer'" References: <63226.1347899311@critter.freebsd.dk> <20120917120626.51369945@bhuda.mired.org> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:44:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQILtA6RTl9SsHY5SI+sd7Tj/M0QkQJb2v3oAjpPJAkCKwo7EQFtj7WHltFby3A= Content-Language: en-us X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Sep 2012 21:46:01.0236 (UTC) FILETIME=[D4523540:01CD951D] Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:47:07 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org = [mailto:owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Zhihao Yuan Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 1:54 PM To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD Well, let's make it more straightforward. I hope people can agree with this: a default, officially supported modern desktop environment is = essential to FreeBSD. This has already been answered. If you want a FreeBSD with a "default" = graphical desktop environment, install PC-BSD. Otherwise FreeBSD is not = really for the "install complete running workstation out of the box" = crowd, Its more the "let me customize my system to exactly the way I = want it" crowd, which has been a detriment to getting the silly linux = fanboys to drop their script Kiddy style lifestyles of just accepting = whatever their linux distro provides. Therefore you will never see a default graphical option outside of the = basics of X11. Besides, the options you mentioned are not part of the = graphical window managers, they are plugins and other utilities that = happen to run parallel and have GUI tie-ins. Most of them really are = nothing more than console programs with a graphical config screen. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 21:51:14 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 195F91065670 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:51:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from millenia2000@hotmail.com) Received: from bay0-omc3-s5.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s5.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.190.143]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07BB8FC0A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:51:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BAY165-DS8 ([65.54.190.189]) by bay0-omc3-s5.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:50:08 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [67.166.186.134] X-EIP: [TldDJ1MqvXFSxZNwsRnChA8lW2r7qGaP] X-Originating-Email: [millenia2000@hotmail.com] Message-ID: From: Sean Cavanaugh To: "'Steffen Daode Nurpmeso'" , References: <5057765F.4080001@an3e.de> <50577f0a.TlvZ/9QC1A0IFofPYai2MUvl@dietcurd.wild-life.local> In-Reply-To: <50577f0a.TlvZ/9QC1A0IFofPYai2MUvl@dietcurd.wild-life.local> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:49:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGys0SeHaZqf05D1tSF+gyVV5ErKQJ5ODtLAkSFoQ+XnufTsA== Content-Language: en-us X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Sep 2012 21:50:08.0245 (UTC) FILETIME=[678CCA50:01CD951E] Cc: Subject: RE: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:51:14 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Steffen Daode Nurpmeso Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 3:51 PM To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD |> Hi, |> I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official |> supported graphical environment. What i really miss compared to 4.* and 5.3 (and compared to NetBSD and OpenBSD) is that there is a single package with a known name that can be downloaded and unpacked and you have a X11 environment to go. I have not searched the archives for the "when" and "why" of the decision to drop it. But its absence really hurts me. --steffen _______________________________________________ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" /usr/ports/x11/gnome2 /usr/ports/x11/kde/ Etc. I haven't looked but im sure theres equiv for packages too. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 22:23:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD48D106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:23:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lichray@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ie0-f182.google.com (mail-ie0-f182.google.com [209.85.223.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AB88FC15 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:23:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iea17 with SMTP id 17so7904566iea.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:23:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=URX+ERdxBkSSE8E1iR+OdCdoEI2sx+BJkCeF2zqi6z8=; b=ZazhDSBALRBP5GVpSuN26lbSfjVWdLuLTSGeaDGihSrUOMneSqK6LqLg6mGuNmetZ6 ZmRu6+Z4DYiDsgaSPjvQiK+oRY5sJOw92zJQ6umrgozXtZI+QHaAtfVT8kPirBTevbE5 w8RRr2wDBcyh89qTOB6A+R34Hrz3P6oZQppXYhmb6h+urZZX6pDrpDS5gFrB49Wc8tEA pOFEPnCvr46kiIA6dC5NppwtDFthL1KQlUESQJ7rmJl/fCH9E9VKL4sOELx0D/Gi5HYG yNGOfJ4m0a9kxZ8bevGsCAAZan4PN+4zVkQQZMovWv/TbpgXlMrzSC5nsjSydfbiqomO 4H6g== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.43.106.147 with SMTP id du19mr10237486icc.56.1347920599915; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.127.76 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.127.76 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:23:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5057906C.9090002@madpilot.net> References: <5057906C.9090002@madpilot.net> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:23:19 -0500 Message-ID: From: Zhihao Yuan To: Guido Falsi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: My explanation to "a default DE" (was "Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD") X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:23:20 -0000 On Sep 17, 2012 4:04 PM, "Guido Falsi" wrote: > > On 09/17/12 21:13, Zhihao Yuan wrote: >> >> 1. Maximize graphical user experience by officially implementing Wifi >> helpers, auto-mounters; > > > A good automounter definitely does not need a GUI. > =E2=80=A6 > BTW for this case too there is a whole set of problems due to authorizations. various other OSes have solved this in many ways, most common solution used to be to just make every user "root"(or whatever the other OS calls it ;) > So, my opinion is, we need to standardize both, or we can't provide a modern graphical user experience. > Also, you should also have a look at net-mgmt/wifimgr if you really can't do without a mouse. As u can see, it's a stand alone app. But the most widely used wifi managers are always taskbar applets -- something bound to a specific DE. -- we must standardize a ${DE}! -- Zhihao Yuan From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 23:02:47 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0E1106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:02:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com (mail-pb0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA00C8FC0A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:02:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbbrp2 with SMTP id rp2so10615720pbb.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:02:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=shxY+EbujZfpYcH/2WQgqCvLPXNx7a9wTaJ0j1TJO20=; b=y2W16t0FIKBZJQ1Iczz9i310++TtYLegrHM6gF1R82bxhTnW8sO/I3jH6Fum+FW5iX lSydKcVmy/5JfNycLcAxrq8aljK1ZiQ2wU/8/WFA/r6JXRMvqiyrtSh5x3k4a9tUx5of rMvxfShU4MJlsi6zpfYPTGXH1yP8ggcvxMPRZDSG777mFT3x5YvWJyEX1HSZvAVbJlR9 gtmENZCX2L1dri18QpESF2OGmzuiC/Rr+oHZa7/c86hwzY2SWL8QY1GBlQfKzLi18uK5 xhxaYEiTaGbK/H/SzoiCR4YfEsG1tAPpxAuspQP5SAZ1A0O1CzanCpbg4h9VhT3ouKMU 1qfA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.136.40 with SMTP id px8mr24931458pbb.153.1347922967345; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.36.106 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:02:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <63226.1347899311@critter.freebsd.dk> <20120917120626.51369945@bhuda.mired.org> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:02:47 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: _9iebNXjnGe6F45LW7ur64ySpYE Message-ID: From: Adrian Chadd To: Zhihao Yuan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Mike Meyer Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:02:48 -0000 On 17 September 2012 10:53, Zhihao Yuan wrote: > >From a programmer's point of view, GUI is a protocol, a graphical > language. It's true. But users don't care. Users don't care how their > graphical commands are being implemented. > > Well, let's make it more straightforward. I hope people can agree with > this: a default, officially supported modern desktop environment is > essential to FreeBSD. Hi, Ignoring the ridiculous levels this particular little trip has taken - I suggest speaking to the PCBSD peeps and choose a toolkit that's common with what they're either using or going to use. Then, go ahead and do it. Create some inertia and pull others into doing it. Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 23:07:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85194106566B for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:07:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com (mail-pb0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A588FC0A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:07:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbbrp2 with SMTP id rp2so10622097pbb.13 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:07:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=m07UIjzWRfvOiMBGvXTeCpiOqy/VRhbJHX46QvLLSLk=; b=YuUg+BAFLbni+A4MDBBlrx29dhzja2VPbZ25uyIK04eNDnq1oCQu+jkhJsHUTIYfxx RHKrFoQu004Vf6JKJq1nbJF+FL8N/iH5frGk/Lh/XSJol5nGPL6d2Mwkqa4T8XrBKYYE SwW1tvszG/2tynhImyrcPrjOFk33qWmkOb0mCCVn4rF61ISOBZ5t3nRUBsN3PJSD2ioe FnpQp1m2ROawc0jkmrJEnus0c8cfGnQ5IDfHx+xBX7EZ33BUu3Co2XfS+ZqSAnYdkee6 55LFzCdIsPvMSswJIYi5sHqXMQzUPHIIto2Tzfk7tN40GLg4zXEEvm1xjOjL1EzAivhZ pxSQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.72.197 with SMTP id f5mr22475899pav.20.1347923236169; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.68.36.106 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:07:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5057906C.9090002@madpilot.net> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:07:16 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: c_mYWzOC3PdzGrJa21EIk5VdJ-w Message-ID: From: Adrian Chadd To: Zhihao Yuan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Guido Falsi Subject: Re: My explanation to "a default DE" (was "Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD") X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:07:17 -0000 Again, I think the best thing you can do is find a few people who are aligned with what you're trying to achieve, sketch together something, write up a few applets/applications, and get them into a port. I then think the best thing to do is talk/work with the PCBSD people to get this stuff integrated into what they're doing. I think it's great that you're trying to do this. I think it's better to target something like PCBSD (where the idea of a "desktop environment" default makes sense, as they're already writing GUI toolkits) versus having FreeBSD try to choose an "environment". :) Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 23:09:18 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4F85106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:09:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mad@madpilot.net) Received: from micro.madpilot.net (micro.madpilot.net [88.149.173.206]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CFDC8FC0C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:09:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from micro.madpilot.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by micro.madpilot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3XLNM04tNpz2sW; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:09:16 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=madpilot.net; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:in-reply-to :references:subject:subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:from :date:date:message-id:received:received; s=mail; t=1347923354; x=1349737755; bh=FoH8UebDdYuoDQjhoo2kjLVbxF9pMiBi26f2mbOERec=; b= nWKUisFFNk+OPhRD2pYQAWbM7RB1Rb17zpBvXJNfQ/w7Iyfa4F0DGpXqkirlBY0/ /+k2RDTiUVBtzkhCwWEE6vBOozZv1K+wzpsRModJPICxxFJ2ueO31lISuDkRwRmS Z0AoHbfjW4jWvuwy4CE36pcqu9bKXzb9SHb0ryoujJ8= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at madpilot.net Received: from micro.madpilot.net ([127.0.0.1]) by micro.madpilot.net (micro.madpilot.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v5xiAZ0DnV3g; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:09:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tommy.madpilot.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by micro.madpilot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:09:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5057AD9A.70902@madpilot.net> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:09:14 +0200 From: Guido Falsi User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120912 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Zhihao Yuan References: <5057906C.9090002@madpilot.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: My explanation to "a default DE" (was "Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD") X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:09:18 -0000 On 09/18/12 00:23, Zhihao Yuan wrote: > On Sep 17, 2012 4:04 PM, "Guido Falsi" > wrote: > > > > On 09/17/12 21:13, Zhihao Yuan wrote: > >> > >> 1. Maximize graphical user experience by officially implementing Wifi > >> helpers, auto-mounters; > > > > > > A good automounter definitely does not need a GUI. > > … > > BTW for this case too there is a whole set of problems due to > authorizations. various other OSes have solved this in many ways, most > common solution used to be to just make every user "root"(or whatever > the other OS calls it ;) > > > > So, my opinion is, we need to standardize both, or we can't provide a > modern graphical user experience. Standards can't accommodate the wide variation of uses a general purpose OS with such a diverse mix of uses as FreeBSD has. Whatever option you choose to standardize on you will end up with just a small portion of the users satisfied and the other unsatisfied. I'd like to FreeBSD to keep this attitude. "blessing" one DE is just the opposite and even if the blessing is just a blessed option between many, if successful it will tend to marginalize the others. > > > Also, you should also have a look at net-mgmt/wifimgr if you really > can't do without a mouse. > > As u can see, it's a stand alone app. But the most widely used wifi What's so bad about stand alone things? They are simple and less prone to breaking in mysterious ways > managers are always taskbar applets -- something bound to a specific DE. > -- we must standardize a ${DE}! What about people who dislike DEs and taskbar and all these kind of things cluttering their screen? What about ones using Plain old WMs?? In fact why should I have a wifi management GUI running all the time if I need it just a few minutes a week when I happen to be around and need to add a new network? Same goes for other gadgets(toys...). If working applets are what is needed I think it would be a better effort to adapt to the APIs the ones which already exist and give them the needed backend. Not easy, but would have the best reward. Anyway The blessing part is the problem. Everyone has it's preferences and wil be a very big bikeshed. You ignored the most important part of my email. Even before worrying about the GUI part of such applications there are difficult technical things to solve. Writing the applet is the easy part once the bigger technical problems are solved. The technical problems are not standardization ones, new general solutions are needed. It's not just a question of picking up one between various options for the authorization problems. The evident options are all suboptimal, just choosing one is no good. And this is just an example. Personally I have never used taskbars, toolbars and the like(well except when I have to use a very common OS with a mandatory taskbar in lower part of the screen by default), I like plain old Windows managers and use a simple mouse menu to launch the most common programs (I played with gestures, but were not satisfied) and use terminal emulators to do anything else. I have little knowledge of the DEs since I have not been using any for a long time, even though I do use some gnome software as a standalone program. So I can't help choose one -- Guido Falsi From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 00:12:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15302106564A; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 00:12:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E5448FC08; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 00:12:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (pD9FBED47.dip.t-dialin.net [217.251.237.71]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q8I0C8s0066843; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 00:12:09 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q8I0BuYL032194; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 02:11:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8I0Bcaa060336; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 02:11:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <201209180011.q8I0Bcaa060336@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Zhihao Yuan From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:40:33 CDT." Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 02:11:38 +0200 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Lorenzo Cogotti , Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 00:12:12 -0000 > And then, a modern GUI should take care of Wifi, automount, No thanks, seperate issues. > and many > things can't be done with a single WM. That's why I said "twm is not a > modern GUI". So far, any questions? TWM is not a modern window manager, but is small & light, & comes with X11. I'm happy we each can choose window managers to replace it, or not, according to local host &/or per user criteria. Someone mentioned some boxes want no X11: To extend that list: (servers, firewalls, real time small embedded, minimised for security, machines on low speed serial connections, SLIP maybe etc), + maybe some blind people, using eg 40 char single line output devices (I've never seen one but heard of 'em), & half blind people, perhaps using ([VESA?] or twm with giant fonts (cos anything newer than twm maybe (guessing) might not tempt them so much). Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with "> ". Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 05:12:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D05C1065675 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 05:12:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichfreebsdlist@ovitrap.com) Received: from alogreentechnologies.com (alogreentechnologies.com [67.212.224.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FF68FC15 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 05:12:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from X220.ovitrap.com ([122.129.201.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by alogreentechnologies.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id q8I5C72h018303; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:12:09 -0600 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:03:47 +0700 From: Erich Dollansky To: Lorenzo Cogotti Message-ID: <20120918090347.32beb18b@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0 (GTK+ 2.24.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 05:12:17 -0000 Hi, On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:35:40 +0200 Lorenzo Cogotti wrote: > I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an > official supported graphical environment. for taking resources away from FreeBSD itself? I do not see the need for this as long there is a single item open on the dodo list. There will one question stay open. Why provide a default GUI when there are so many out there which are all based on X? The user can install whatever is liked. Give the users the freedom to decide. Erich From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 07:46:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6EF1106566C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:46:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 147358FC17 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:46:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I7kFfD044674; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:46:15 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q8I7kFOq044671; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:46:15 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:46:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Lorenzo Cogotti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:46:15 +0200 (CEST) Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:46:21 -0000 > Hi, > I was wondering about the possibility of FreeBSD to provide an official > supported graphical environment. UNIX (so FreeBSD) never had "standard graphical environment" or "graphical environment" at all. Xorg is standard in FreeBSD and most unices for graphics hardware support. There are thousands and more programs available that uses Xorg, including tens of "graphical environments", and everyone is free to select any of them if needed. Or none of them if not needed. Is it that bad to allow people control their computer and willingly choose what to use? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 07:47:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 122371065672 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:47:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 736F68FC0C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:47:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I7l4N0044680; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:47:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q8I7l4Ap044677; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:47:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:47:03 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Lorenzo Cogotti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <62954.1347896564@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:47:04 +0200 (CEST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:47:08 -0000 > This idea would precisely serve the purpose of removing this need and > eliminate redundancy of toolkits, when it comes to essential utilities > that FreeBSD would want to provide, like devices automounting, > partitioning (taking advantage of the system features) and so on... but > it's just an idea, of course. is anything of this really FreeBSD specific? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 07:48:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 699E71065672 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:48:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA628FC14 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:48:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I7mHux044689; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:48:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q8I7mHtE044686; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:48:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:48:16 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Tom Evans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:48:17 +0200 (CEST) Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Zhihao Yuan Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:48:21 -0000 >> regard GUI as a third-party bonus. > > This is according to *your* use cases though. There are many of us who > do not put X - or any graphical environment - on our FreeBSD servers. and there are many of us that do not put any "graphical environment" while using Xorg, making actually productive one. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 07:49:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE47106564A for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:49:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D2118FC14 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:49:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I7mvqn044695; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:48:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q8I7muPT044692; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:48:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:48:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Lorenzo Cogotti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:48:57 +0200 (CEST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:49:01 -0000 > want to develop GUI applications on FreeBSD, supporting features as > panel integration, reliable messageboxes and other trivial things, on > other operating systems, that are apparently unavailable on UNIX without > pulling in significant portions of lots of environments. this make sense. but it is not FreeBSD specific at all. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 07:54:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77AB31065674 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:54:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB2B68FC0C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:54:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I7sgpF044712; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:54:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q8I7sgrE044709; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:54:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:54:41 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Garrett Cooper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:54:42 +0200 (CEST) Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Lorenzo Cogotti Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:54:46 -0000 > Replying more to the Wayland comments, yes.. > FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD need to implement the Wayland `protocol` > because xorg-server development is slowly being killed over time, but that's the main reason i already frozen package tree, so i will be able to use Xorg in 5 years or more. Wayland is the step that destroyed main adventage of X11 protocol - network transparency. And yes i use it heavily. Actually i don't see any real future for wayland and linux. Linux is already pushed out by *BSD on the professional side, and by Windows, Mac OS X,"smart"phones, android, etc... on avarage user size, with real "linux users" being less than 0.1% of all. Android is linux based but mostly kernel side. Of course you may see much higher stats as a lot of people have linux installed altogether with windows or Mac OS X, they normally use the latter, but want to be proud of being linux user. Linux now is mostly hype. Still it's very loud about it but that's only media reality. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 07:56:14 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDE0106566C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:56:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 553668FC12 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:56:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I7uAI1044732; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:56:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q8I7u9KZ044729; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:56:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:56:09 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Zhihao Yuan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <63226.1347899311@critter.freebsd.dk> <20120917120626.51369945@bhuda.mired.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:56:11 +0200 (CEST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Mike Meyer Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:56:15 -0000 >> From a programmer's point of view, GUI is a protocol, a graphical > language. It's true. But users don't care. Users don't care how their > graphical commands are being implemented. Such users don't use FreeBSD, or at least doesn't have admin rights. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 07:58:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2B0106566C; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:58:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF8E8FC14; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:58:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I7wLaG044751; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:58:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q8I7wLiP044748; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:58:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:58:21 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Lorenzo Cogotti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20120917161427.GB11773@e-new.0x20.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:58:21 +0200 (CEST) Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Adrian Chadd , Lars Engels , Zhihao Yuan Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:58:28 -0000 > actually come out of it). I then faced the problem that there are lots > of GUI toolkits, lots of scenarios to take into account, lots of desktop You cannot change it. There are lots of GUI toolking and none are really consistent. None are part of FreeBSD and none will. If you want to write GUI programs like this you just have to select single one. Or better - spend you time on more productive things that making another graphic toy. Even drinking beer is more productive. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 08:09:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12B91065675 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:09:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1492E8FC0A for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:09:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I88q3f044795; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:08:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q8I88qjd044792; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:08:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:08:52 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Garrett Cooper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <63507.1347905101@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:08:53 +0200 (CEST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Poul-Henning Kamp , Mike Meyer , Zhihao Yuan Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:09:04 -0000 > To be succinct: this is not OSX/Windows. True Unix and Unix clones can > be decoupled from a desktop environment enough that forcing everyone > to have one choice for desktop user experience doesn't make sense, and > the fact that there isn't a common GUI development toolkit (GTK, QT, > etc) encourages fragmentation of effort further (I think it's called > the Bazaar model of development :P). That's all true. But do anyone understand why there is still so much pressure for every open source OS and specifically *BSD on "default desktop environment" or similar ideas? Such a pressure exist for 20 years at least, and - between other results - started demise of linux as trusty high performance system. Why people still not learned from faults and keep harming good open source projects that way? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 08:11:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F9D2106566C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:11:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448218FC21 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:10:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I8AtXI044807; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:10:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q8I8AsIX044804; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:10:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:10:54 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Lorenzo Cogotti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <63507.1347905101@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:10:55 +0200 (CEST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:11:01 -0000 > make a GUI application for FreeBSD? You are asking yourself what desktop > environment will work for sure on FreeBSD? There you have it, Blah DE > works just well and is perfectly documented." use any X toolking you want (well almost, i recommend avoiding Qt) and use it properly without assuming any "desktop environment" running and your program will work just fine. What's a problem? No standard for "toolbar widgets"? Really it's completely unimportant thing for anyone treating computer as something more than a toy. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 08:15:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6293E1065672 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:15:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87B418FC12 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:15:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I8FfEs044878 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:15:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q8I8Ffgh044875 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:15:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:15:41 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:15:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: sound programming X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:15:46 -0000 where can i find up to day beginner howto of programming sound (C language) in FreeBSD? particularly how to record/process/mix/play sound realtime - i mean having low delays. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 08:18:23 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAF311065672; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:18:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F01758FC0C; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:18:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id LAA16677; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:18:21 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1TDt0f-0005gv-EE; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:18:21 +0300 Message-ID: <50582E4C.8060107@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:18:20 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120913 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-acpi@freebsd.org" References: <504EDAFE.3000601@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <504EDAFE.3000601@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-viet-vps Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: do we always have acpi_cpu for a cpu? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:18:24 -0000 [ping] on 11/09/2012 09:32 Andriy Gapon said the following: > > I think that we always expect to have a one-to-one correspondence between > acpi_cpu devices and actual (APIC) CPUs. acpi_pcpu_get_id() seems to even > assert that, if I am reading the code correctly. > > The following patch adds the assert to acpi_cpu_idle as well and also removes > what I believe to be an obsolete comment about HTT CPUs. > > acpi_cpu: expect every cpu to have a corresponding acpi_cpu object > > ... via Processor object in ASL namespace. > > diff --git a/sys/dev/acpica/acpi_cpu.c b/sys/dev/acpica/acpi_cpu.c > index 15201f9..203ed02 100644 > --- a/sys/dev/acpica/acpi_cpu.c > +++ b/sys/dev/acpica/acpi_cpu.c > @@ -925,23 +925,15 @@ acpi_cpu_idle() > uint32_t start_time, end_time; > int bm_active, cx_next_idx, i; > > + sc = cpu_softc[PCPU_GET(cpuid)]; > + KASSERT(sc != NULL, ("acpi_cpu_idle: CPU without ACPI CPU")); > + > /* If disabled, return immediately. */ > if (cpu_disable_idle) { > ACPI_ENABLE_IRQS(); > return; > } > > - /* > - * Look up our CPU id to get our softc. If it's NULL, we'll use C1 > - * since there is no ACPI processor object for this CPU. This occurs > - * for logical CPUs in the HTT case. > - */ > - sc = cpu_softc[PCPU_GET(cpuid)]; > - if (sc == NULL) { > - acpi_cpu_c1(); > - return; > - } > - > /* Find the lowest state that has small enough latency. */ > cx_next_idx = 0; > if (cpu_disable_deep_sleep) > -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 08:24:36 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27CF106566C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:24:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bk0-f54.google.com (mail-bk0-f54.google.com [209.85.214.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5467F8FC0C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:24:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bkcje9 with SMTP id je9so2780939bkc.13 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:24:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=m9FGrjJ9IGMFfgrkF2bFgkkD4k1wDiGdUAKbtWOSt14=; b=my42bGUNQtW1ka7WUlV6sGD+Je4Pa+ZWubyNfYaUEP6C/oK0o4iczLY6p2dHQwOi8U 9QsGWvZhmKfgnkPuejWII9/90Lz9WZoqW8zbRTLlfQQQy3J8JxyPKhL90DyGjSVxSP50 zmekHZf5OYSPVY7gF1vg9Uehjp7o/+1J4xQp2kP2dVUKPA3utP/qv57LaQkvm17wWJPU qn17H39xRmLtKDmqgkYrGk3ERUypXi/5fi9aCv0XgbhuHhvHyEBDw8Wx5u9p25ck+e0P OSFH4tyXABIv6c3g5X9GZY6maQ3DEkAO3e7i5Yc1VKKwMFh83HcZDiQscbMHmzBhOaWz 95RA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.152.27 with SMTP id e27mr5313925bkw.56.1347956674597; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.10.141 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.10.141 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:24:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <63507.1347905101@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:24:34 +0100 Message-ID: From: Chris Rees To: Wojciech Puchar Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Garrett Cooper , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Poul-Henning Kamp , Mike Meyer , Zhihao Yuan Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:24:36 -0000 Can you perhaps read the whole thread and organise your thoughts into just one email? Chris On 18 Sep 2012 09:09, "Wojciech Puchar" wrote: > To be succinct: this is not OSX/Windows. True Unix and Unix clones can >> be decoupled from a desktop environment enough that forcing everyone >> to have one choice for desktop user experience doesn't make sense, and >> the fact that there isn't a common GUI development toolkit (GTK, QT, >> etc) encourages fragmentation of effort further (I think it's called >> the Bazaar model of development :P). >> > > That's all true. But do anyone understand why there is still so much > pressure for every open source OS and specifically *BSD on "default desktop > environment" or similar ideas? > > Such a pressure exist for 20 years at least, and - between other results - > started demise of linux as trusty high performance system. > > Why people still not learned from faults and keep harming good open source > projects that way? > ______________________________**_________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/**mailman/listinfo/freebsd-**hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@** > freebsd.org " > > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 08:27:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A463106566C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:27:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9240F8FC1A for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:27:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I84FIg044780; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:04:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q8I84F1N044777; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:04:15 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:04:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Andrew Young In-Reply-To: <3B4C348C-91B0-46B9-9670-51F9F3CB0508@mosaicarchive.com> Message-ID: References: <63226.1347899311@critter.freebsd.dk> <20120917120626.51369945@bhuda.mired.org> <3B4C348C-91B0-46B9-9670-51F9F3CB0508@mosaicarchive.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:04:16 +0200 (CEST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:27:31 -0000 > I spent years using Linux before I truly appreciated the key difference between a "desktop environment" and a "graphical environment". Probably because everyone had to have a desktop environment. > > I define graphical environment as simply X11 and a window manager. good that you as first one defined things. I am too a user of "graphical environment" as per your definition, using Xorg and fvwm2 with heavily modified config. > That's all you need to run Firefox, Gimp, etc. Because x11 is the underlying base, any toolkit (gtk, qt, whatever) will work just fine. A developer can pick the toolkit they're most comfortable with and it will work on anyone's system. There are few exceptions for badly written programs, mostly QT based that gets eg. terrible performance or leave lots of dangling processes after you exit. But these are exceptions not rule. > IMHO, a graphical environment is useful for running applications like Firefox and Gimp. > I never run either of these on a server so I would never want to install > even a graphical environment on my servers. Well i actually installed it on a few. If i have connected monitor and i am present there and just want to view a webpage or do something requiring X11 - why not? > > I have no use at all for desktop environments. They're often bloated, buggy, and provide no real value to me. Even if there would be "desktop enviroment" that starts in less than a second, reacts on everything below single video frame time and used close to zero CPU time i would not use one, as there is no benefit. IMHO the only "benefit" is wasted lots of screen space for taskbars, menubars, windows frames and titles etc... From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 08:27:42 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED57B10656E3 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:27:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mexas@bristol.ac.uk) Received: from dirg.bris.ac.uk (dirg.bris.ac.uk [137.222.10.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6A6A8FC18 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:27:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ncsc.bris.ac.uk ([137.222.10.41]) by dirg.bris.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TDt9g-0003H5-NG; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:27:40 +0100 Received: from mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk ([137.222.187.241]) by ncsc.bris.ac.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TDt9g-0001CG-1d; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:27:40 +0100 Received: from mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I8Rdj8074944; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:27:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mexas@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk) Received: (from mexas@localhost) by mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q8I8Rdpc074943; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:27:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mexas) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:27:39 +0100 (BST) From: Anton Shterenlikht Message-Id: <201209180827.q8I8Rdpc074943@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> To: wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl, yanegomi@gmail.com In-Reply-To: Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, miciamail@hotmail.it Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: mexas@bristol.ac.uk List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:27:42 -0000 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:54:41 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar Actually i don't see any real future for wayland and linux. Linux is already pushed out by *BSD on the professional side, and by Are you mad? Have you looked at top500 lately? As of June 2012, 462 out of 500 systems are linux based. Anton From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 08:39:47 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D906A106564A for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:39:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [89.206.35.99]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AEC38FC08 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:39:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I8dhpJ044952; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:39:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id q8I8dhNE044949; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:39:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:39:43 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <74299.1347956133@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: References: <74299.1347956133@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [127.0.0.1]); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:39:43 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Garrett Cooper , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Mike Meyer , Zhihao Yuan Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:39:47 -0000 >> desktop environment" or similar ideas? > > Tell you what: > > When you have at least 75% of the user population of FreeBSD agreeing > on which window manager we should offer as the default, we can talk > about this. so if 76% would decide that FreeBSD should have KDE included in system - it means that it should? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 08:43:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C53E106564A for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:43:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pieter@degoeje.nl) Received: from degoeje.nl (degoeje.nl [85.214.202.38]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B3C68FC0A for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:43:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.2.25] (unknown [37.74.127.6]) by degoeje.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 487E9A21D3; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:33:51 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <505831EF.7020606@degoeje.nl> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:33:51 +0200 From: Pieter de Goeje User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wojciech Puchar References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.3 at degoeje.nl X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sound programming X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:43:46 -0000 Op 18-9-2012 10:15, Wojciech Puchar schreef: > where can i find up to day beginner howto of programming sound (C > language) in FreeBSD? > > particularly how to record/process/mix/play sound realtime - i mean > having low delays. Check out 4front's OSS documentation http://manuals.opensound.com/developer/ In particular (recording and playback with low latency): http://manuals.opensound.com/developer/fulldup.c.htm Barring implementation differences, this should all apply to FreeBSD. To get really low delays you should probably adjust the hw.snd.latency sysctls. Regards, Pieter de Goeje From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 09:34:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92EE106564A for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:34:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichfreebsdlist@ovitrap.com) Received: from alogreentechnologies.com (alogreentechnologies.com [67.212.224.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73EEC8FC16 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:34:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from X220.ovitrap.com ([122.129.201.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by alogreentechnologies.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id q8I9YcWr028471; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 03:34:40 -0600 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:34:31 +0700 From: Erich Dollansky To: Wojciech Puchar Message-ID: <20120918163431.06d01249@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: References: <74299.1347956133@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0 (GTK+ 2.24.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Garrett Cooper , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Poul-Henning Kamp , Mike Meyer , Zhihao Yuan Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:34:44 -0000 Hi, On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:39:43 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar wrote: > >> desktop environment" or similar ideas? > > > > Tell you what: > > > > When you have at least 75% of the user population of FreeBSD > > agreeing on which window manager we should offer as the default, we > > can talk about this. > > so if 76% would decide that FreeBSD should have KDE included in > system - it means that it should? and let the project wonder one year later that all users moved to Windows as the better KDE? Erich From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 09:58:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42A09106566B for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:58:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD9C8FC15 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:58:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so12751989obb.13 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 02:57:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=user-agent:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:subject:from:date:to:cc:message-id :x-gm-message-state; bh=reLnuYMEa+Pq2Xfwv5TrRnNuSDnkhiNdclVWQaxtdlE=; b=TD0v3yCJkfM6Bzh5srgQ/SVyPcsgX8TujI3uFaK+1r52y59mUlW4bZCCHAisH45s5h QXVZ/bdEXJFvdqiTQ54uhdRioyi8Zp6qaxzeEjQWxASvye8UY1sGeK6fy+xaKlwn+SpG 92vX9/6qclZEtTAvL7yxGyD0Zm0wIqPkS1XTJ8+rPNJizovUIg6E1nSjqqAUFB1FUksV R0TRQ6/BQR3tBnjmbHQyJelk8KNWgdsnGnQpXGSjpSP+RUN6wvLkRsJlZ8XDYFU1qRB/ zOF1rBBVbS+cT90i4tNc65E0wcygHfBE29wZSZFAP/VEFhfSg/Iqv58hyfbsGRx96LIj a0Dw== Received: by 10.182.207.71 with SMTP id lu7mr14146045obc.78.1347962277011; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 02:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from android-17cbdb9246b29c31.mired.org (ip72-200-195-210.ok.ok.cox.net. [72.200.195.210]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ql3sm13920112obc.17.2012.09.18.02.57.56 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 02:57:56 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <5057906C.9090002@madpilot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Mike Meyer Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 04:57:53 -0500 To: Zhihao Yuan ,Guido Falsi Message-ID: <9f2044aa-1413-40d2-966f-b9f0294b4210@email.android.com> X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnXwD9EszjjVM9irA9XVj+o4ZrMG3aHN9V9tWXG0xAY8aMXHOII648xjwc6KxTXVNc60KzV Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: My explanation to "a default DE" (was "Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD") X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:58:04 -0000 Zhihao Yuan wrote: >As u can see, it's a stand alone app. But the most widely used wifi >managers are always taskbar applets -- something bound to a specific >DE. -- There are a number of taskbar applications not bound to a DE (dzen2, mobar, gkrellm2) which have plugins for managing the kinds of things you're talking about. The X protocols provide a way for such applications to declare themselves as "bars", and for other interested applications (usually WM's) to discover the screen geometry both with and without bars. >we must standardize a ${DE}! Why? So far, the only advantage you've cited is that users can get a supported, documented desktop on FreeBSD (except there's nobody to support or document it) and developers could get a documented desktop to write apps for (except there's again nobody to document it, and you're the only developer asking for it), and you haven't said anything bad would happen if this doesn't happen. Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D693106564A for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:02:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-vb0-f54.google.com (mail-vb0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1071E8FC12 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:02:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vbmv11 with SMTP id v11so3755200vbm.13 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 04:02:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pihTKXc3CIdev47EjXs6B3dagmbYhdiRKvLWh9tP6Ps=; b=aWzvRnS0b6PiEuJy9LNAs0lEbV1FPRISRiz0TxuzN9qOhXebVyImZ5o8lXV+BJoTBU I5ZCkyGVfCp2kbvD0aRPRXNr4gWQ9nTswzynf9pFV1A4KkkUX2Zl+RioF1V2I6dsYYaz wPJtQIAV49x2dbQL3OqJYz+edod3PNbdro4ieT+kr78MwMBZmKeDloF+FCdz45+qfjGy VNVj+wbU/d9MGb20iCoioww/TR4Xkmv2SBy87+RqjSfaBEbmPFXT2iEckIQZAYPcX3uZ Mo+3P5ZLUGVsdjzq0ng6zjc/3OKtQ1qkZe4t90P4hES7DCt1FUMWo05fXZfy9uRoMq1H BTvA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.58.147 with SMTP id r19mr9413749veq.5.1347966157410; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 04:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.228.1 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 04:02:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9332B40A-BBCC-4004-B2B0-4A51091AFF3C@gmail.com> References: <9332B40A-BBCC-4004-B2B0-4A51091AFF3C@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 12:02:37 +0100 Message-ID: From: Tom Evans To: Garrett Cooper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: [RFC] Add *.orig/*.rej to svn:ignore in src? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:02:38 -0000 On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Garrett Cooper wrote= : > I noticed that we have a handful of patterns currently ignored in= svn:ignore (at least at the top-level=E2=80=A6 the lower levels don't appe= ar to be set in any particular manner): > > $ svn propget svn:ignore > _.tinderbox.* > _.amd64.* > _.arm.* > _.i386.* > _.ia64.* > _.mips.* > _.pc98.* > _.powerpc.* > _.sparc64.* > _.sun4v.* > > $ svn info | grep URL: > URL: http://svn.freebsd.org/base/head > > I was wondering if *.orig and *.rej should be added to the list a= s well to avoid checking in patch `artifact` files? > Thanks! svn:ignore is not recursive, so this would only prevent orig/rej files being committed if they are at the top level, which they are unlikely to be. This is best handled personally in ~/.subversion/config Cheers Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 11:15:26 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D548106564A for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:15:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from to.my.trociny@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wi0-f172.google.com (mail-wi0-f172.google.com [209.85.212.172]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3B98FC08 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:15:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibhi8 with SMTP id hi8so3027658wib.13 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 04:15:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-disposition:user-agent; bh=9DGX+uJIsFSEf7XRfMFdkDI/cTUk8PuN3Pptf0cdMNg=; b=se2dSoTXAm2C9V63Cd2btXNoE4u47VKyKIOCurse1c8nENwZfP+BwHY2HfP60AzKiT T/RnUjvkStoAeph4Jo5Azl8ax+kG9/2pjLpgIseHpdoCnqLZ/ZLGv8xp/c2szg+eRmsZ mXqryhp1LE1GISWY8AeSTwffAUPMsRdfew3akP/CAxfAYLNvt741BsAYLUReWzhvY0fD w71UeU/GAlo+reBA4S5aL3s43qaJ1w+GU5sFjUN+zYpgG4tqT0P2HIgJnmM04/Ab9xfW 7CCmKbIZpLJ9kz1o8nFtDbxc1hyVsxT4dAuHVYGllY7ONsKR31mTWjLMuOpUlkfvCrGJ zEmw== Received: by 10.181.13.164 with SMTP id ez4mr22579450wid.21.1347966924362; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 04:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([95.69.174.83]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cu1sm22311343wib.6.2012.09.18.04.15.22 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 04:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Mikolaj Golub Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 14:15:20 +0300 From: Mikolaj Golub To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20120918111519.GB66984@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Changing `iostat -Ix' output X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:15:26 -0000 Hi, I don't like very much what `iostat -Ix' outputs and would like to change this. A typical output: % iostat -Ix extended device statistics device r/i w/i kr/i kw/i qlen svc_t %b ada0 5599136.0 3953193.0 39982760.0 86819866.5 0 15.1 16 cd0 552.0 0.0 4.3 0.0 0 0.0 0 pass0 333.0 0.0 166.5 0.0 0 0.0 0 pass1 2.0 0.0 1.0 0.0 0 0.0 0 Parameters like r/i, kr/i (total io operations/kbytes) are very useful. They allow to use `iostat -Ix' to collect IO statistics running it periodically (from cron or some monitoring tool) and calculate average amount of operations or bytes per second at the specified period subtracting the current value from the previous one and dividing by time period. But you can't do the same with % busy, which is very useful IO characteristics. Average % busy at the specified period could be calculated storing total busy time for the device at time t1, total busy time at t2 and then subtracting the last value from the first (to get busy time at this period) and dividing by the time period. Currently iostat(8) does not provide 'total busy time' statistics. I use sysutils/devstat for this but it would be nice if iostat(8) itself provide such functionality. I propose for `iostat -Ix` to output total busy time instead of % busy, and also total duration of transactions instead of average duration (to be able to calculate average duration for the period between two iostat runs). http://people.freebsd.org/~trociny/iostat.total_busy_time.1.patch Average duration and % busy are still available via `iostat -x`. Here is an output example % ./iostat -Ix; sleep 60; ./iostat -Ix extended device statistics device r/i w/i kr/i kw/i qlen tdur sb ada0 5599785.0 3961913.0 39985960.5 86902385.5 0 144055.5 35966.5 cd0 554.0 0.0 4.3 0.0 0 0.0 9.5 pass0 336.0 0.0 168.0 0.0 0 0.0 17.5 pass1 2.0 0.0 1.0 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 extended device statistics device r/i w/i kr/i kw/i qlen tdur sb ada0 5599922.0 3963177.0 40002608.0 86958230.5 0 144074.4 35970.5 cd0 554.0 0.0 4.3 0.0 0 0.0 9.5 pass0 336.0 0.0 168.0 0.0 0 0.0 17.5 pass1 2.0 0.0 1.0 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 So, for ada0, % busy for that period was 100 * (35970.5 - 35966.5) / 60 = 6. And service time (assuming that only read and write operations were serviced) was 1000 * (144074.4 - 144055.5) / (5599922 - 5599785 + 3963177 - 3961913) = 13.4 msec. What do you think about this? -- Mikolaj Golub From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 08:15:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD66B106566C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:15:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69CFD8FC1C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:15:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D9543B7A4; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:15:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I8FXEw074300; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:15:33 GMT (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: Wojciech Puchar From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:08:52 +0200." Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:15:33 +0000 Message-ID: <74299.1347956133@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:31:21 +0000 Cc: Garrett Cooper , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Mike Meyer , Zhihao Yuan Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:15:35 -0000 In message , Wojci ech Puchar writes: >That's all true. But do anyone understand why there is still so much >pressure for every open source OS and specifically *BSD on "default >desktop environment" or similar ideas? Tell you what: When you have at least 75% of the user population of FreeBSD agreeing on which window manager we should offer as the default, we can talk about this. Until such a consensus exists, this discussion is just a waste of time. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 08:52:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3AD4106564A for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:52:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B7B38FC08 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:52:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.61.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEBC03B755; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:52:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8I8qJMe082605; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:52:19 GMT (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: Wojciech Puchar From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:39:43 +0200." Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:52:19 +0000 Message-ID: <82604.1347958339@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:31:35 +0000 Cc: Garrett Cooper , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Mike Meyer , Zhihao Yuan Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:52:21 -0000 In message , Wojci ech Puchar writes: >>> desktop environment" or similar ideas? >> >> Tell you what: >> >> When you have at least 75% of the user population of FreeBSD agreeing >> on which window manager we should offer as the default, we can talk >> about this. > >so if 76% would decide that FreeBSD should have KDE included in system - >it means that it should? Just to clarify: when I write "offer by default" I do not mean "cram down peoples throat". -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 12:18:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 518AA1065674 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 12:18:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bk0-f54.google.com (mail-bk0-f54.google.com [209.85.214.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7168FC1E for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 12:18:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bkcje9 with SMTP id je9so2925668bkc.13 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 05:18:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=stEjoK/VAxcVeftuLi8/5/BcA2JGos7q1WlCQ4FwuSI=; b=yIGbVUjSDC3sWJwp5YMPmQDnGSmMrZct3CsqRv9yEno87r7nHTsIcMpW2ztcZ/BYrZ 5WDydl0ZRBZcaZJ7JmZ1kdeHR9mIsi4Ch47eHK5LQPSJo+L6cAq8RxPvUoBNo9HIYaiw 96v50xEgrIKFj1m5zKLeqVNek0+/SL3jvKbVRyWk8brLM/H6U06uke9c0zrbCqDFDDym P+ponkvRGBzj0vt6iFl7K5NoDEI9nPDN5tUEA7za2DWnzV8aJC4UpC4yYyfPDTZPaUEJ lXgGe44PpOSd40dm2W+0iVxlG31vHA28pVTdrQyQpFzLXq0oUgL1ci10TZ4v3Xy+I6UC SgOQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.152.27 with SMTP id e27mr5632691bkw.56.1347970686582; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 05:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.10.141 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 05:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.10.141 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 05:18:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <74299.1347956133@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:18:06 +0100 Message-ID: From: Chris Rees To: Wojciech Puchar Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Garrett Cooper , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Poul-Henning Kamp , Mike Meyer , Zhihao Yuan Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 12:18:08 -0000 On 18 Sep 2012 09:41, "Wojciech Puchar" wrote: >>> >>> desktop environment" or similar ideas? >> >> >> Tell you what: >> >> When you have at least 75% of the user population of FreeBSD agreeing >> on which window manager we should offer as the default, we can talk >> about this. > > > so if 76% would decide that FreeBSD should have KDE included in system - it means that it should? No. Read the thread properly. Chris From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 13:25:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1AFE106566C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:25:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 235DC8FC0C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:25:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from odyssey.starpoint.kiev.ua (alpha-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.101]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id QAA19935 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:25:10 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <50587635.8070007@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:25:09 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120830 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: cpu_spinwait in cngetc X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:25:13 -0000 (Why[*]) Would anyone object to a change like this? diff --git a/sys/kern/kern_cons.c b/sys/kern/kern_cons.c index 5346bc3..d17846a 100644 --- a/sys/kern/kern_cons.c +++ b/sys/kern/kern_cons.c @@ -384,7 +384,7 @@ cngetc(void) if (cn_mute) return (-1); while ((c = cncheckc()) == -1) - ; + cpu_spinwait(); if (c == '\r') c = '\n'; /* console input is always ICRNL */ return (c); [*] :-) -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 14:05:10 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35249106564A; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 14:05:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED778FC12; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 14:05:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from odyssey.starpoint.kiev.ua (alpha-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.101]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id RAA20401; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 17:05:01 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <50587F8D.9060102@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 17:05:01 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120830 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jeff Roberson Subject: ule+smp: small optimization for turnstile priority lending X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 14:05:10 -0000 Here is a snippet that demonstrates the issue on a supposedly fully loaded 2-processor system: 136794 0 3670427870244462 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", state:"running", attributes: prio:122 136793 0 3670427870241000 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"cc1plus tid 111916", state:"yielding", attributes: prio:183, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"(null)" 136792 1 3670427870240829 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"idle: cpu1 tid 100004", state:"running", attributes: prio:255 136791 1 3670427870239520 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", counter:0, attributes: none 136790 1 3670427870239248 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid 113473", state:"blocked", attributes: prio:122, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"unp_mtx" 136789 1 3670427870237697 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 0 load", counter:2, attributes: none 136788 1 3670427870236394 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid 113473", point:"wokeup", attributes: linkedto:"Xorg tid 102818" 136787 1 3670427870236145 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", state:"runq add", attributes: prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid 113473" 136786 1 3670427870235981 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", counter:1, attributes: none 136785 1 3670427870235707 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", state:"runq rem", attributes: prio:176 136784 1 3670427870235423 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", point:"prio", attributes: prio:176, new prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid 113473" 136783 1 3670427870202392 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid 113473", state:"running", attributes: prio:104 See how how the Xorg thread was forced from CPU 1 to CPU 0 where it preempted cc1plus thread (I do have preemption enabled) only to leave CPU 1 with zero load. Here is a proposed solution: turnstile_wait: optimize priority lending to a thread on a runqueue As the current thread is definitely going into mi_switch, it now removes its load before doing priority propagation which can potentially result in sched_add. In the SMP && ULE case the latter searches for the least loaded CPU to place a boosted thread, which is supposedly about to run. diff --git a/sys/kern/sched_ule.c b/sys/kern/sched_ule.c index 8e466cd..3299cae 100644 --- a/sys/kern/sched_ule.c +++ b/sys/kern/sched_ule.c @@ -1878,7 +1878,10 @@ sched_switch(struct thread *td, struct thread *newtd, int flags) /* This thread must be going to sleep. */ TDQ_LOCK(tdq); mtx = thread_lock_block(td); - tdq_load_rem(tdq, td); +#if defined(SMP) + if ((flags & SW_TYPE_MASK) != SWT_TURNSTILE) +#endif + tdq_load_rem(tdq, td); } /* * We enter here with the thread blocked and assigned to the @@ -2412,6 +2415,21 @@ sched_rem(struct thread *td) tdq_setlowpri(tdq, NULL); } +void +sched_load_rem(struct thread *td) +{ + struct tdq *tdq; + + KASSERT(td == curthread, + ("sched_rem_load: only curthread is supported")); + KASSERT(td->td_oncpu == td->td_sched->ts_cpu, + ("thread running on cpu different from ts_cpu")); + tdq = TDQ_CPU(td->td_sched->ts_cpu); + TDQ_LOCK_ASSERT(tdq, MA_OWNED); + MPASS(td->td_lock == TDQ_LOCKPTR(tdq)); + tdq_load_rem(tdq, td); +} + /* * Fetch cpu utilization information. Updates on demand. */ diff --git a/sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c b/sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c index 31d16fe..d1d68e9 100644 --- a/sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c +++ b/sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c @@ -731,6 +731,13 @@ turnstile_wait(struct turnstile *ts, struct thread *owner, int queue) LIST_INSERT_HEAD(&ts->ts_free, td->td_turnstile, ts_hash); } thread_lock(td); +#if defined(SCHED_ULE) && defined(SMP) + /* + * Remove load earlier so that it does not affect cpu selection + * for a thread waken up due to priority lending, if any. + */ + sched_load_rem(td); +#endif thread_lock_set(td, &ts->ts_lock); td->td_turnstile = NULL; diff --git a/sys/sys/sched.h b/sys/sys/sched.h index 4b8387c..b1ead1b 100644 --- a/sys/sys/sched.h +++ b/sys/sys/sched.h @@ -110,6 +110,9 @@ void sched_preempt(struct thread *td); void sched_add(struct thread *td, int flags); void sched_clock(struct thread *td); void sched_rem(struct thread *td); +#if defined(SCHED_ULE) && defined(SMP) +void sched_load_rem(struct thread *td); +#endif void sched_tick(int cnt); void sched_relinquish(struct thread *td); struct thread *sched_choose(void); -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 14:19:22 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF28A1065678 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 14:19:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linnemannr@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vb0-f54.google.com (mail-vb0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969628FC15 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 14:19:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vbmv11 with SMTP id v11so4078820vbm.13 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:19:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=DLwdrIKlkmfUk9NZwgU4dVn31n2txeqQ6vwx4oavdTY=; b=A6uVWis/Bg1FwgQbyr9mDPic33AN8XNzmJYDBoM0C6aEvQ8H5tBA+jn/b1R5abzRu7 j1EXIw0qFWP8TYHbhXGZOfjSEir6+S6p9WC453wf0yw8G/jEeVo9gPdnt/lkQfq7ycOq Cp1BCHWhIenfDVSObILa+eosc71HcABcYUBsqS6dvckCrJ8tHEzZZk2DurJro3t1N47q lQ+sz+IKC2XECjeL89NSgAQ0DGjyXbnjd8vYg+UD+i/csszXc0mE7wtRlpU8Q1QGlF3i /oZiKkJaG/X7HQFIiZTRx12XO1ROHb/Thi/euu7AEeDBMPDUI6DfqO2hhTNvNJ7isfYB WAYg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.19.109 with SMTP id d13mr17851vde.27.1347977961416; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.179.83 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:19:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <505831EF.7020606@degoeje.nl> References: <505831EF.7020606@degoeje.nl> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:19:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Reid Linnemann To: Pieter de Goeje Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Wojciech Puchar , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sound programming X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 14:19:23 -0000 On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 3:33 AM, Pieter de Goeje wrote: > Op 18-9-2012 10:15, Wojciech Puchar schreef: > >> where can i find up to day beginner howto of programming sound (C >> language) in FreeBSD? >> >> particularly how to record/process/mix/play sound realtime - i mean having >> low delays. > > > Check out 4front's OSS documentation > http://manuals.opensound.com/developer/ > > In particular (recording and playback with low latency): > http://manuals.opensound.com/developer/fulldup.c.htm > > Barring implementation differences, this should all apply to FreeBSD. > To get really low delays you should probably adjust the hw.snd.latency > sysctls. > > Regards, > Pieter de Goeje > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" FYI, I think you've got a cut and paste error. That last link should be http://manuals.opensound.com/developer/fulldup.c.html From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 15:46:26 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A50101065673 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:46:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69FA98FC16 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:46:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0089B6BFB for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 17:46:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8F58E837C; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 17:46:24 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 17:46:23 +0200 Message-ID: <86wqzr8hbk.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Subject: fdgrowtable() cleanup X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:46:26 -0000 The patch below my signature improves the legibility of fdgrowtable(), and adds comments explaining the hairier bits. The only functional change is that the code no longer overwrites the old fileflags array when the old table is placed on the freelist; instead, it uses the space actually set aside for that purpose. (I assume that the old behavior was harmless, since it has persisted for decades, but it was certainly confusing.) The slightly repetitive nature of the new code is intentional. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no Index: sys/kern/kern_descrip.c =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --- sys/kern/kern_descrip.c (revision 240654) +++ sys/kern/kern_descrip.c (working copy) @@ -148,11 +148,6 @@ #define NDSLOTS(x) (((x) + NDENTRIES - 1) / NDENTRIES) =20 /* - * Storage required per open file descriptor. - */ -#define OFILESIZE (sizeof(struct file *) + sizeof(char)) - -/* * Storage to hold unused ofiles that need to be reclaimed. */ struct freetable { @@ -1436,7 +1431,7 @@ struct freetable *fo; struct file **ntable; struct file **otable; - char *nfileflags; + char *nfileflags, *ofileflags; int nnfiles, onfiles; NDSLOTTYPE *nmap; =20 @@ -1447,33 +1442,46 @@ =20 /* compute the size of the new table */ onfiles =3D fdp->fd_nfiles; + otable =3D fdp->fd_ofiles; + ofileflags =3D fdp->fd_ofileflags; nnfiles =3D NDSLOTS(nfd) * NDENTRIES; /* round up */ if (nnfiles <=3D onfiles) /* the table is already large enough */ return; =20 - /* allocate a new table and (if required) new bitmaps */ - ntable =3D malloc((nnfiles * OFILESIZE) + sizeof(struct freetable), + /* + * Allocate a new table. We need enough space for a) the file + * entries themselves, b) the file flags, and c) the struct + * freetable we will use when we decommission the table and place + * it on the freelist. + */ + ntable =3D malloc(nnfiles * sizeof(*ntable) + + nnfiles * sizeof(*nfileflags) + + sizeof(struct freetable), M_FILEDESC, M_ZERO | M_WAITOK); nfileflags =3D (char *)&ntable[nnfiles]; + + /* allocate new bitmaps if necessary */ if (NDSLOTS(nnfiles) > NDSLOTS(onfiles)) nmap =3D malloc(NDSLOTS(nnfiles) * NDSLOTSIZE, M_FILEDESC, M_ZERO | M_WAITOK); else nmap =3D NULL; =20 - bcopy(fdp->fd_ofiles, ntable, onfiles * sizeof(*ntable)); - bcopy(fdp->fd_ofileflags, nfileflags, onfiles); - otable =3D fdp->fd_ofiles; + /* copy the old data over and point at the new tables */ + bcopy(otable, ntable, onfiles * sizeof(*otable)); + bcopy(ofileflags, nfileflags, onfiles * sizeof(*ofileflags)); fdp->fd_ofileflags =3D nfileflags; fdp->fd_ofiles =3D ntable; + /* * We must preserve ofiles until the process exits because we can't * be certain that no threads have references to the old table via * _fget(). */ if (onfiles > NDFILE) { - fo =3D (struct freetable *)&otable[onfiles]; + fo =3D (struct freetable *)(char *)otable + + onfiles * sizeof(*otable) + onfiles * sizeof(*ofileflags); fdp0 =3D (struct filedesc0 *)fdp; fo->ft_table =3D otable; SLIST_INSERT_HEAD(&fdp0->fd_free, fo, ft_next); From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 16:50:05 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F3EE10657D8; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:50:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95CE78FC1E; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:50:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lage12 with SMTP id e12so50053lag.13 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:50:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Z2TF9Jo6TCl47yDrNXppNwi6d5GbpkdcAcE5zBRm+4g=; b=Rce5SC1Qy3/vknmxzJky2EIOIIfyGG12nMYwowwgrjFEzMQDv6pdGZtCC/pCFIYJ52 Zrb1x4YsBhC0ba4cJ254+reT0ZAf/aCu20zQjUcwI9kC8msXXGlxs2x04GkrbtBg03J4 Z2uiXFl1vX8b6APCFLgEnV+ZdYUAR8W1p8c5QxOMUQpmsK4G8+9pdqZBPcDYEcIA4QXi EC/i1QXxJadSnjVi8gEn6oHRGhioZz1+1EcNqj1NH/kpIT0UnHFpWSjPoy0x0x3YLU85 nq7T0yWWWEmlqmswPF7LsJ0Auw/yYRY1mVKvXUAxqRfx3af0eT7EdpUDZRNb4q1HZNuM E5Vw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.86.41 with SMTP id m9mr117120lbz.108.1347987002034; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.102.39 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:50:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <50587F8D.9060102@FreeBSD.org> References: <50587F8D.9060102@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 17:50:01 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3wZnj3yjlScZEViqG8bwU2qMLnQ Message-ID: From: Attilio Rao To: Andriy Gapon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers , Jeff Roberson Subject: Re: ule+smp: small optimization for turnstile priority lending X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: attilio@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:50:05 -0000 On 9/18/12, Andriy Gapon wrote: > > Here is a snippet that demonstrates the issue on a supposedly fully loaded > 2-processor system: > > 136794 0 3670427870244462 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", > state:"running", attributes: prio:122 > > 136793 0 3670427870241000 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"cc1plus tid > 111916", > state:"yielding", attributes: prio:183, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"(null)" > > 136792 1 3670427870240829 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"idle: cpu1 tid > 100004", > state:"running", attributes: prio:255 > > 136791 1 3670427870239520 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", > counter:0, > attributes: none > > 136790 1 3670427870239248 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid > 113473", > state:"blocked", attributes: prio:122, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"unp_mtx" > > 136789 1 3670427870237697 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 0 load", > counter:2, > attributes: none > > 136788 1 3670427870236394 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid > 113473", > point:"wokeup", attributes: linkedto:"Xorg tid 102818" > > 136787 1 3670427870236145 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", > state:"runq add", attributes: prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid 113473" > > 136786 1 3670427870235981 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", > counter:1, > attributes: none > > 136785 1 3670427870235707 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", > state:"runq rem", attributes: prio:176 > > 136784 1 3670427870235423 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", > point:"prio", attributes: prio:176, new prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid > 113473" > > 136783 1 3670427870202392 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid > 113473", > state:"running", attributes: prio:104 > > See how how the Xorg thread was forced from CPU 1 to CPU 0 where it > preempted > cc1plus thread (I do have preemption enabled) only to leave CPU 1 with zero > load. I think that the idea is bright, but I have reservations against the implementation because it seems to me there are too many layering violations. What is suggest is somewhat summarized like that: - Add a new SRQ_WILLSLEEP or the name you prefer - Add a new "flags" argument to sched_lend_prio() (both ule and 4bsd) and sched_thread_priority (ule only) - sched_thread_priority() will pass down the new flag to sched_add() which passed down to sched_pickcpu(). This way sched_pickcpu() has the correct knowledge of what is going on and it can make the right decision. You likely don't need to lower the tdq_load at that time either this way, because sched_pickcpu() can just adjust it locally for its decision. What do you think? Thanks, Attilio -- Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 19:08:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1935106566C; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:08:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 887CD8FC1C; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:07:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id WAA23024; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 22:07:57 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1TE39J-0006Ux-FQ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 22:07:57 +0300 Message-ID: <5058C68B.1010508@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 22:07:55 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120913 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: attilio@FreeBSD.org References: <50587F8D.9060102@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers , Jeff Roberson Subject: Re: ule+smp: small optimization for turnstile priority lending X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:08:01 -0000 on 18/09/2012 19:50 Attilio Rao said the following: > On 9/18/12, Andriy Gapon wrote: >> >> Here is a snippet that demonstrates the issue on a supposedly fully loaded >> 2-processor system: >> >> 136794 0 3670427870244462 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >> state:"running", attributes: prio:122 >> >> 136793 0 3670427870241000 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"cc1plus tid >> 111916", >> state:"yielding", attributes: prio:183, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"(null)" >> >> 136792 1 3670427870240829 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"idle: cpu1 tid >> 100004", >> state:"running", attributes: prio:255 >> >> 136791 1 3670427870239520 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", >> counter:0, >> attributes: none >> >> 136790 1 3670427870239248 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >> 113473", >> state:"blocked", attributes: prio:122, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"unp_mtx" >> >> 136789 1 3670427870237697 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 0 load", >> counter:2, >> attributes: none >> >> 136788 1 3670427870236394 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >> 113473", >> point:"wokeup", attributes: linkedto:"Xorg tid 102818" >> >> 136787 1 3670427870236145 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >> state:"runq add", attributes: prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid 113473" >> >> 136786 1 3670427870235981 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", >> counter:1, >> attributes: none >> >> 136785 1 3670427870235707 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >> state:"runq rem", attributes: prio:176 >> >> 136784 1 3670427870235423 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >> point:"prio", attributes: prio:176, new prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid >> 113473" >> >> 136783 1 3670427870202392 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >> 113473", >> state:"running", attributes: prio:104 >> >> See how how the Xorg thread was forced from CPU 1 to CPU 0 where it >> preempted >> cc1plus thread (I do have preemption enabled) only to leave CPU 1 with zero >> load. > > I think that the idea is bright, but I have reservations against the > implementation because it seems to me there are too many layering > violations. Just one - for a layer between tunrstile and scheduler :-) But I agree. > What is suggest is somewhat summarized like that: > - Add a new SRQ_WILLSLEEP or the name you prefer > - Add a new "flags" argument to sched_lend_prio() (both ule and 4bsd) > and sched_thread_priority (ule only) > - sched_thread_priority() will pass down the new flag to sched_add() > which passed down to sched_pickcpu(). > > This way sched_pickcpu() has the correct knowledge of what is going on > and it can make the right decision. You likely don't need to lower the > tdq_load at that time either this way, because sched_pickcpu() can > just adjust it locally for its decision. > > What do you think? This sounds easy but it is not quite so given the implementation of sched_pickcpu and sched_lowest. This is probably more work than I am able to take now. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 19:17:06 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5B28106566C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:17:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@jroberson.net) Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com (mail-pb0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC4E8FC0C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:17:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbbrp2 with SMTP id rp2so757505pbb.13 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 12:17:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:x-x-sender:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=b7dtbKLjbiaXxjyZ/2hvIyYcLi/Z00Al/o8eKWv1Cv4=; b=DM4NCivOCA8UQBEGK3Rj0xGrtuC82JbA8XZeW3vlGAD1PypwIqJkOJNBBiD26vy1o8 LrtQFxNxSw4F/xA7/sCEQKo4wnrKuw7x2mAb6K+I8v23OC/1OPOLsKFa/XjvXGnyPZ7S NpeKqzsMxseKoBY4OCv7Ewfk15HvU9nNf4hVZnUoFmjS3mGaWKc184trJ4I8fCPP1FCq xAtiBBRfRT2MC3/cYQW+7uF900jrTs1wtV9GDhfTIyNc39H18hsFhwemqmm9BAGNsqo/ 2ph0FYFOOCptgDgxIjBdXRSPu1BK/BOodr7ReGTal50wlws5lKX7DPQDeQzOPHJil/s3 8IKg== Received: by 10.68.202.168 with SMTP id kj8mr1363012pbc.8.1347995826344; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 12:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rrcs-66-91-135-210.west.biz.rr.com (rrcs-66-91-135-210.west.biz.rr.com. [66.91.135.210]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id sr3sm410069pbc.44.2012.09.18.12.17.04 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 12:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:16:35 -1000 (HST) From: Jeff Roberson X-X-Sender: jroberson@desktop To: Andriy Gapon In-Reply-To: <5058C68B.1010508@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: References: <50587F8D.9060102@FreeBSD.org> <5058C68B.1010508@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnbQPTCmSGJ+lmnKAcjLuqVkwq1R92SoxtDZ5b98MztFpeEzac8TTCS0Fmiui5eYON+s0ok X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 20:41:01 +0000 Cc: attilio@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-hackers , Jeff Roberson Subject: Re: ule+smp: small optimization for turnstile priority lending X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:17:06 -0000 On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 18/09/2012 19:50 Attilio Rao said the following: >> On 9/18/12, Andriy Gapon wrote: >>> >>> Here is a snippet that demonstrates the issue on a supposedly fully loaded >>> 2-processor system: >>> >>> 136794 0 3670427870244462 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>> state:"running", attributes: prio:122 >>> >>> 136793 0 3670427870241000 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"cc1plus tid >>> 111916", >>> state:"yielding", attributes: prio:183, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"(null)" >>> >>> 136792 1 3670427870240829 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"idle: cpu1 tid >>> 100004", >>> state:"running", attributes: prio:255 >>> >>> 136791 1 3670427870239520 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", >>> counter:0, >>> attributes: none >>> >>> 136790 1 3670427870239248 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >>> 113473", >>> state:"blocked", attributes: prio:122, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"unp_mtx" >>> >>> 136789 1 3670427870237697 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 0 load", >>> counter:2, >>> attributes: none >>> >>> 136788 1 3670427870236394 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >>> 113473", >>> point:"wokeup", attributes: linkedto:"Xorg tid 102818" >>> >>> 136787 1 3670427870236145 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>> state:"runq add", attributes: prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid 113473" >>> >>> 136786 1 3670427870235981 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", >>> counter:1, >>> attributes: none >>> >>> 136785 1 3670427870235707 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>> state:"runq rem", attributes: prio:176 >>> >>> 136784 1 3670427870235423 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>> point:"prio", attributes: prio:176, new prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid >>> 113473" >>> >>> 136783 1 3670427870202392 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >>> 113473", >>> state:"running", attributes: prio:104 >>> >>> See how how the Xorg thread was forced from CPU 1 to CPU 0 where it >>> preempted >>> cc1plus thread (I do have preemption enabled) only to leave CPU 1 with zero >>> load. >> >> I think that the idea is bright, but I have reservations against the >> implementation because it seems to me there are too many layering >> violations. > > Just one - for a layer between tunrstile and scheduler :-) > But I agree. > >> What is suggest is somewhat summarized like that: >> - Add a new SRQ_WILLSLEEP or the name you prefer >> - Add a new "flags" argument to sched_lend_prio() (both ule and 4bsd) >> and sched_thread_priority (ule only) >> - sched_thread_priority() will pass down the new flag to sched_add() >> which passed down to sched_pickcpu(). >> >> This way sched_pickcpu() has the correct knowledge of what is going on >> and it can make the right decision. You likely don't need to lower the >> tdq_load at that time either this way, because sched_pickcpu() can >> just adjust it locally for its decision. >> >> What do you think? > > This sounds easy but it is not quite so given the implementation of > sched_pickcpu and sched_lowest. This is probably more work than I am able to > take now. I agree with Attillio's assessment. I have tried to do similar things before for ithreads etc. I think a more generic approach would be good. I will put it on my list of things to look at and we'll see who gets time first. Thanks, Jeff > > -- > Andriy Gapon > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 21:31:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF0A1065740 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:31:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthias.andree@gmx.de) Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net (mailout-de.gmx.net [213.165.64.22]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 08AB28FC0C for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:31:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 18 Sep 2012 21:31:42 -0000 Received: from f055244009.adsl.alicedsl.de (EHLO mandree.no-ip.org) [78.55.244.9] by mail.gmx.net (mp032) with SMTP; 18 Sep 2012 23:31:42 +0200 X-Authenticated: #428038 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+zEh0pteOzJmCLa2XLBrSxLUL4++bJwvvq/VXF+5 pRtiTlfYfU/aeE Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.emma.line.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A596C23CF2B for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 23:31:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5058E83C.4070806@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 23:31:40 +0200 From: Matthias Andree User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120827 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <5057765F.4080001@an3e.de> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:31:44 -0000 Am 17.09.2012 21:52, schrieb Lorenzo Cogotti: > Even the userbase/time spent developing ratio matters. What also matters > is the interest that a system shows in something, I think it's obvious > that FreeBSD can't get much attention as a desktop system if no effort > is put into it. It is not a bad thing being tied to the server concept, > but I just think FreeBSD would also be an excellent desktop system with > a little effort. There is Debian/kFreeBSD - Debian on a FreeBSD kernel. Not sure how useful it is, and it probably lacks FreeBSD's userland, but well, just a point. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 18 23:02:00 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45F3D106564A; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 23:02:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C4D8FC0C; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 23:01:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lahe6 with SMTP id e6so175119lah.13 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:01:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=CVIb9OCBM/mAx9OTnFVVVp1zihNE31CvvAohmn7S8Lo=; b=LNY/AuQ5087ea7Ogfw3BvCamHTPRf8DdDhSipwPRF+2jcHOd8cOY8miZIXUsYYaidl gCGiclqIy0x3SxfaTt1Z/4f0cukjlKpx1HfnUVizqClYQXi4JTz1mP8SaGxrxU1+lfgt dF3lcc81morLpVyDbEI5/4YZXwmLTIfMF+RKZHK8M7ae1Mie6NZBZTWfPFd4f2a24JII JD9e25jspho3XQGYCg1cEF4sE8beE7T7Q8k8vuDAqwju4mlHdtu3Y97bSRJZMxmnmKl7 qn5mcEr4g2cQojOtOLrb1cPYgBGbDPYMnYcLYHujSMgmhAFR/d1tjTZqrLM6f6c6MiBf I2TQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.112.233 with SMTP id it9mr1033084lab.40.1348009317760; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.102.39 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:01:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5058C68B.1010508@FreeBSD.org> References: <50587F8D.9060102@FreeBSD.org> <5058C68B.1010508@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 00:01:57 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9Bc7sexbeBk4YrK6MIH9t50vRPs Message-ID: From: Attilio Rao To: Andriy Gapon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers , Jeff Roberson Subject: Re: ule+smp: small optimization for turnstile priority lending X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: attilio@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 23:02:00 -0000 On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 18/09/2012 19:50 Attilio Rao said the following: >> On 9/18/12, Andriy Gapon wrote: >>> >>> Here is a snippet that demonstrates the issue on a supposedly fully loaded >>> 2-processor system: >>> >>> 136794 0 3670427870244462 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>> state:"running", attributes: prio:122 >>> >>> 136793 0 3670427870241000 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"cc1plus tid >>> 111916", >>> state:"yielding", attributes: prio:183, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"(null)" >>> >>> 136792 1 3670427870240829 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"idle: cpu1 tid >>> 100004", >>> state:"running", attributes: prio:255 >>> >>> 136791 1 3670427870239520 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", >>> counter:0, >>> attributes: none >>> >>> 136790 1 3670427870239248 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >>> 113473", >>> state:"blocked", attributes: prio:122, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"unp_mtx" >>> >>> 136789 1 3670427870237697 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 0 load", >>> counter:2, >>> attributes: none >>> >>> 136788 1 3670427870236394 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >>> 113473", >>> point:"wokeup", attributes: linkedto:"Xorg tid 102818" >>> >>> 136787 1 3670427870236145 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>> state:"runq add", attributes: prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid 113473" >>> >>> 136786 1 3670427870235981 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", >>> counter:1, >>> attributes: none >>> >>> 136785 1 3670427870235707 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>> state:"runq rem", attributes: prio:176 >>> >>> 136784 1 3670427870235423 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>> point:"prio", attributes: prio:176, new prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid >>> 113473" >>> >>> 136783 1 3670427870202392 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >>> 113473", >>> state:"running", attributes: prio:104 >>> >>> See how how the Xorg thread was forced from CPU 1 to CPU 0 where it >>> preempted >>> cc1plus thread (I do have preemption enabled) only to leave CPU 1 with zero >>> load. >> >> I think that the idea is bright, but I have reservations against the >> implementation because it seems to me there are too many layering >> violations. > > Just one - for a layer between tunrstile and scheduler :-) > But I agree. > >> What is suggest is somewhat summarized like that: >> - Add a new SRQ_WILLSLEEP or the name you prefer >> - Add a new "flags" argument to sched_lend_prio() (both ule and 4bsd) >> and sched_thread_priority (ule only) >> - sched_thread_priority() will pass down the new flag to sched_add() >> which passed down to sched_pickcpu(). >> >> This way sched_pickcpu() has the correct knowledge of what is going on >> and it can make the right decision. You likely don't need to lower the >> tdq_load at that time either this way, because sched_pickcpu() can >> just adjust it locally for its decision. >> >> What do you think? > > This sounds easy but it is not quite so given the implementation of > sched_pickcpu and sched_lowest. This is probably more work than I am able to > take now. I think actually that the attached patch should do what you need. Of course there is more runqueue locking, due to the tdq_load fondling, but I'm not sure it is really a big deal. I didn't test it yet, as I understand you have a test case, so maybe you can. However if Jeff agrees I can send the patch to flo@ for performance evaluation. Thoughts? Attilio Index: sys/sys/sched.h =================================================================== --- sys/sys/sched.h (revisione 240672) +++ sys/sys/sched.h (copia locale) @@ -91,7 +91,7 @@ void sched_nice(struct proc *p, int nice); */ void sched_exit_thread(struct thread *td, struct thread *child); void sched_fork_thread(struct thread *td, struct thread *child); -void sched_lend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio); +void sched_lend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio, int flags); void sched_lend_user_prio(struct thread *td, u_char pri); fixpt_t sched_pctcpu(struct thread *td); void sched_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio); @@ -161,6 +161,7 @@ sched_unpin(void) #define SRQ_INTR 0x0004 /* It is probably urgent. */ #define SRQ_PREEMPTED 0x0008 /* has been preempted.. be kind */ #define SRQ_BORROWING 0x0010 /* Priority updated due to prio_lend */ +#define SRQ_WILLSWITCH 0x0020 /* curthread will be switched out */ /* Scheduler stats. */ #ifdef SCHED_STATS Index: sys/kern/sched_ule.c =================================================================== --- sys/kern/sched_ule.c (revisione 240672) +++ sys/kern/sched_ule.c (copia locale) @@ -290,7 +290,7 @@ static struct tdq tdq_cpu; #define TDQ_LOCKPTR(t) (&(t)->tdq_lock) static void sched_priority(struct thread *); -static void sched_thread_priority(struct thread *, u_char); +static void sched_thread_priority(struct thread *, u_char, int flags); static int sched_interact_score(struct thread *); static void sched_interact_update(struct thread *); static void sched_interact_fork(struct thread *); @@ -1233,6 +1233,18 @@ sched_pickcpu(struct thread *td, int flags) } } /* + * If SRQ_WILLSWITCH is set, this means curthread on the currcpu + * is going to be switched out very soon. This means we should + * consider the curcpu as less loaded than expected. + * tdq_load is fondled directly, rather than calling tdq_load_rem(), + * because there is no need to handle tdq_sysload for this purpose. + */ + if (flags & SRQ_WILLSWITCH) { + TDQ_LOCK(TDQ_CPU(self)); + TDQ_CPU(self)->tdq_load--; + TDQ_UNLOCK(TDQ_CPU(self)); + } + /* * Search for the last level cache CPU group in the tree. * Skip caches with expired affinity time and SMT groups. * Affinity to higher level caches will be handled less aggressively. @@ -1270,6 +1282,11 @@ sched_pickcpu(struct thread *td, int flags) cpu = self; } else SCHED_STAT_INC(pickcpu_lowest); + if (flags & SRQ_WILLSWITCH) { + TDQ_LOCK(TDQ_CPU(self)); + TDQ_CPU(self)->tdq_load++; + TDQ_UNLOCK(TDQ_CPU(self)); + } if (cpu != ts->ts_cpu) SCHED_STAT_INC(pickcpu_migration); return (cpu); @@ -1629,7 +1646,7 @@ sched_pctcpu_update(struct td_sched *ts, int run) * functions. */ static void -sched_thread_priority(struct thread *td, u_char prio) +sched_thread_priority(struct thread *td, u_char prio, int flags) { struct td_sched *ts; struct tdq *tdq; @@ -1659,7 +1676,7 @@ static void if (TD_ON_RUNQ(td) && prio < td->td_priority) { sched_rem(td); td->td_priority = prio; - sched_add(td, SRQ_BORROWING); + sched_add(td, flags | SRQ_BORROWING); return; } /* @@ -1684,11 +1701,11 @@ static void * priority. */ void -sched_lend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio) +sched_lend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio, int flags) { td->td_flags |= TDF_BORROWING; - sched_thread_priority(td, prio); + sched_thread_priority(td, prio, flags); } /* @@ -1711,9 +1728,9 @@ sched_unlend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio) base_pri = td->td_base_pri; if (prio >= base_pri) { td->td_flags &= ~TDF_BORROWING; - sched_thread_priority(td, base_pri); + sched_thread_priority(td, base_pri, 0); } else - sched_lend_prio(td, prio); + sched_lend_prio(td, prio, 0); } /* @@ -1736,7 +1753,7 @@ sched_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio) /* Change the real priority. */ oldprio = td->td_priority; - sched_thread_priority(td, prio); + sched_thread_priority(td, prio, 0); /* * If the thread is on a turnstile, then let the turnstile update Index: sys/kern/sched_4bsd.c =================================================================== --- sys/kern/sched_4bsd.c (revisione 240672) +++ sys/kern/sched_4bsd.c (copia locale) @@ -859,7 +859,7 @@ sched_priority(struct thread *td, u_char prio) * priority. */ void -sched_lend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio) +sched_lend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio, int flags __unused) { td->td_flags |= TDF_BORROWING; @@ -888,7 +888,7 @@ sched_unlend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio) td->td_flags &= ~TDF_BORROWING; sched_prio(td, base_pri); } else - sched_lend_prio(td, prio); + sched_lend_prio(td, prio, 0); } void Index: sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c =================================================================== --- sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c (revisione 240672) +++ sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c (copia locale) @@ -158,7 +158,7 @@ static void init_turnstile0(void *dummy); #ifdef TURNSTILE_PROFILING static void init_turnstile_profiling(void *arg); #endif -static void propagate_priority(struct thread *td); +static void propagate_priority(struct thread *td, int flags); static int turnstile_adjust_thread(struct turnstile *ts, struct thread *td); static struct thread *turnstile_first_waiter(struct turnstile *ts); @@ -178,9 +178,10 @@ SDT_PROBE_DEFINE2(sched, , , wakeup, wakeup, "stru * Walks the chain of turnstiles and their owners to propagate the priority * of the thread being blocked to all the threads holding locks that have to * release their locks before this thread can run again. + * It accepts SRQ_* informations as flags. */ static void -propagate_priority(struct thread *td) +propagate_priority(struct thread *td, int flags) { struct turnstile *ts; int pri; @@ -240,7 +241,7 @@ static void /* * Bump this thread's priority. */ - sched_lend_prio(td, pri); + sched_lend_prio(td, pri, flags); /* * If lock holder is actually running or on the run queue @@ -445,7 +446,7 @@ turnstile_adjust(struct thread *td, u_char oldpri) td->td_tsqueue == TS_SHARED_QUEUE); if (td == TAILQ_FIRST(&ts->ts_blocked[td->td_tsqueue]) && td->td_priority < oldpri) { - propagate_priority(td); + propagate_priority(td, 0); } } @@ -659,7 +660,7 @@ turnstile_claim(struct turnstile *ts) */ thread_lock(owner); if (td->td_priority < owner->td_priority) - sched_lend_prio(owner, td->td_priority); + sched_lend_prio(owner, td->td_priority, 0); thread_unlock(owner); tc = TC_LOOKUP(ts->ts_lockobj); mtx_unlock_spin(&ts->ts_lock); @@ -741,7 +742,7 @@ turnstile_wait(struct turnstile *ts, struct thread td->td_blktick = ticks; TD_SET_LOCK(td); mtx_unlock_spin(&tc->tc_lock); - propagate_priority(td); + propagate_priority(td, SRQ_WILLSWITCH); if (LOCK_LOG_TEST(lock, 0)) CTR4(KTR_LOCK, "%s: td %d blocked on [%p] %s", __func__, From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 19 06:03:10 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4AA9106566B; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 06:03:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC3DA8FC0C; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 06:03:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id JAA28408; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:03:07 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1TEDNL-0009oc-AI; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:03:07 +0300 Message-ID: <50596019.5060708@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:03:05 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120913 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: attilio@FreeBSD.org References: <50587F8D.9060102@FreeBSD.org> <5058C68B.1010508@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers , Jeff Roberson Subject: Re: ule+smp: small optimization for turnstile priority lending X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 06:03:11 -0000 on 19/09/2012 02:01 Attilio Rao said the following: > On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Andriy Gapon wrote: >> on 18/09/2012 19:50 Attilio Rao said the following: >>> On 9/18/12, Andriy Gapon wrote: >>>> >>>> Here is a snippet that demonstrates the issue on a supposedly fully loaded >>>> 2-processor system: >>>> >>>> 136794 0 3670427870244462 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>>> state:"running", attributes: prio:122 >>>> >>>> 136793 0 3670427870241000 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"cc1plus tid >>>> 111916", >>>> state:"yielding", attributes: prio:183, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"(null)" >>>> >>>> 136792 1 3670427870240829 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"idle: cpu1 tid >>>> 100004", >>>> state:"running", attributes: prio:255 >>>> >>>> 136791 1 3670427870239520 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", >>>> counter:0, >>>> attributes: none >>>> >>>> 136790 1 3670427870239248 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >>>> 113473", >>>> state:"blocked", attributes: prio:122, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"unp_mtx" >>>> >>>> 136789 1 3670427870237697 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 0 load", >>>> counter:2, >>>> attributes: none >>>> >>>> 136788 1 3670427870236394 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >>>> 113473", >>>> point:"wokeup", attributes: linkedto:"Xorg tid 102818" >>>> >>>> 136787 1 3670427870236145 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>>> state:"runq add", attributes: prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid 113473" >>>> >>>> 136786 1 3670427870235981 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", >>>> counter:1, >>>> attributes: none >>>> >>>> 136785 1 3670427870235707 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>>> state:"runq rem", attributes: prio:176 >>>> >>>> 136784 1 3670427870235423 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>>> point:"prio", attributes: prio:176, new prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid >>>> 113473" >>>> >>>> 136783 1 3670427870202392 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >>>> 113473", >>>> state:"running", attributes: prio:104 >>>> >>>> See how how the Xorg thread was forced from CPU 1 to CPU 0 where it >>>> preempted >>>> cc1plus thread (I do have preemption enabled) only to leave CPU 1 with zero >>>> load. >>> >>> I think that the idea is bright, but I have reservations against the >>> implementation because it seems to me there are too many layering >>> violations. >> >> Just one - for a layer between tunrstile and scheduler :-) >> But I agree. >> >>> What is suggest is somewhat summarized like that: >>> - Add a new SRQ_WILLSLEEP or the name you prefer >>> - Add a new "flags" argument to sched_lend_prio() (both ule and 4bsd) >>> and sched_thread_priority (ule only) >>> - sched_thread_priority() will pass down the new flag to sched_add() >>> which passed down to sched_pickcpu(). >>> >>> This way sched_pickcpu() has the correct knowledge of what is going on >>> and it can make the right decision. You likely don't need to lower the >>> tdq_load at that time either this way, because sched_pickcpu() can >>> just adjust it locally for its decision. >>> >>> What do you think? >> >> This sounds easy but it is not quite so given the implementation of >> sched_pickcpu and sched_lowest. This is probably more work than I am able to >> take now. > > I think actually that the attached patch should do what you need. Of > course there is more runqueue locking, due to the tdq_load fondling, > but I'm not sure it is really a big deal. > I didn't test it yet, as I understand you have a test case, so maybe > you can. However if Jeff agrees I can send the patch to flo@ for > performance evaluation. > > Thoughts? Originally I had a similar patch with a small difference that I did tdq_load manipulations in sched_thread_priority around sched_add call. That patch produced a deadlock because of the need for TDQ_LOCK. > Index: sys/sys/sched.h > =================================================================== > --- sys/sys/sched.h (revisione 240672) > +++ sys/sys/sched.h (copia locale) > @@ -91,7 +91,7 @@ void sched_nice(struct proc *p, int nice); > */ > void sched_exit_thread(struct thread *td, struct thread *child); > void sched_fork_thread(struct thread *td, struct thread *child); > -void sched_lend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio); > +void sched_lend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio, int flags); > void sched_lend_user_prio(struct thread *td, u_char pri); > fixpt_t sched_pctcpu(struct thread *td); > void sched_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio); > @@ -161,6 +161,7 @@ sched_unpin(void) > #define SRQ_INTR 0x0004 /* It is probably urgent. */ > #define SRQ_PREEMPTED 0x0008 /* has been > preempted.. be kind */ > #define SRQ_BORROWING 0x0010 /* Priority updated > due to prio_lend */ > +#define SRQ_WILLSWITCH 0x0020 /* curthread will be > switched out */ > > /* Scheduler stats. */ > #ifdef SCHED_STATS > Index: sys/kern/sched_ule.c > =================================================================== > --- sys/kern/sched_ule.c (revisione 240672) > +++ sys/kern/sched_ule.c (copia locale) > @@ -290,7 +290,7 @@ static struct tdq tdq_cpu; > #define TDQ_LOCKPTR(t) (&(t)->tdq_lock) > > static void sched_priority(struct thread *); > -static void sched_thread_priority(struct thread *, u_char); > +static void sched_thread_priority(struct thread *, u_char, int flags); > static int sched_interact_score(struct thread *); > static void sched_interact_update(struct thread *); > static void sched_interact_fork(struct thread *); > @@ -1233,6 +1233,18 @@ sched_pickcpu(struct thread *td, int flags) > } > } > /* > + * If SRQ_WILLSWITCH is set, this means curthread on the currcpu > + * is going to be switched out very soon. This means we should > + * consider the curcpu as less loaded than expected. > + * tdq_load is fondled directly, rather than calling tdq_load_rem(), > + * because there is no need to handle tdq_sysload for this purpose. > + */ > + if (flags & SRQ_WILLSWITCH) { > + TDQ_LOCK(TDQ_CPU(self)); > + TDQ_CPU(self)->tdq_load--; > + TDQ_UNLOCK(TDQ_CPU(self)); > + } > + /* > * Search for the last level cache CPU group in the tree. > * Skip caches with expired affinity time and SMT groups. > * Affinity to higher level caches will be handled less aggressively. > @@ -1270,6 +1282,11 @@ sched_pickcpu(struct thread *td, int flags) > cpu = self; > } else > SCHED_STAT_INC(pickcpu_lowest); > + if (flags & SRQ_WILLSWITCH) { > + TDQ_LOCK(TDQ_CPU(self)); > + TDQ_CPU(self)->tdq_load++; > + TDQ_UNLOCK(TDQ_CPU(self)); > + } > if (cpu != ts->ts_cpu) > SCHED_STAT_INC(pickcpu_migration); > return (cpu); > @@ -1629,7 +1646,7 @@ sched_pctcpu_update(struct td_sched *ts, int run) > * functions. > */ > static void > -sched_thread_priority(struct thread *td, u_char prio) > +sched_thread_priority(struct thread *td, u_char prio, int flags) > { > struct td_sched *ts; > struct tdq *tdq; > @@ -1659,7 +1676,7 @@ static void > if (TD_ON_RUNQ(td) && prio < td->td_priority) { > sched_rem(td); > td->td_priority = prio; > - sched_add(td, SRQ_BORROWING); > + sched_add(td, flags | SRQ_BORROWING); > return; > } > /* > @@ -1684,11 +1701,11 @@ static void > * priority. > */ > void > -sched_lend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio) > +sched_lend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio, int flags) > { > > td->td_flags |= TDF_BORROWING; > - sched_thread_priority(td, prio); > + sched_thread_priority(td, prio, flags); > } > > /* > @@ -1711,9 +1728,9 @@ sched_unlend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio) > base_pri = td->td_base_pri; > if (prio >= base_pri) { > td->td_flags &= ~TDF_BORROWING; > - sched_thread_priority(td, base_pri); > + sched_thread_priority(td, base_pri, 0); > } else > - sched_lend_prio(td, prio); > + sched_lend_prio(td, prio, 0); > } > > /* > @@ -1736,7 +1753,7 @@ sched_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio) > > /* Change the real priority. */ > oldprio = td->td_priority; > - sched_thread_priority(td, prio); > + sched_thread_priority(td, prio, 0); > > /* > * If the thread is on a turnstile, then let the turnstile update > Index: sys/kern/sched_4bsd.c > =================================================================== > --- sys/kern/sched_4bsd.c (revisione 240672) > +++ sys/kern/sched_4bsd.c (copia locale) > @@ -859,7 +859,7 @@ sched_priority(struct thread *td, u_char prio) > * priority. > */ > void > -sched_lend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio) > +sched_lend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio, int flags __unused) > { > > td->td_flags |= TDF_BORROWING; > @@ -888,7 +888,7 @@ sched_unlend_prio(struct thread *td, u_char prio) > td->td_flags &= ~TDF_BORROWING; > sched_prio(td, base_pri); > } else > - sched_lend_prio(td, prio); > + sched_lend_prio(td, prio, 0); > } > > void > Index: sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c > =================================================================== > --- sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c (revisione 240672) > +++ sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c (copia locale) > @@ -158,7 +158,7 @@ static void init_turnstile0(void *dummy); > #ifdef TURNSTILE_PROFILING > static void init_turnstile_profiling(void *arg); > #endif > -static void propagate_priority(struct thread *td); > +static void propagate_priority(struct thread *td, int flags); > static int turnstile_adjust_thread(struct turnstile *ts, > struct thread *td); > static struct thread *turnstile_first_waiter(struct turnstile *ts); > @@ -178,9 +178,10 @@ SDT_PROBE_DEFINE2(sched, , , wakeup, wakeup, "stru > * Walks the chain of turnstiles and their owners to propagate the priority > * of the thread being blocked to all the threads holding locks that have to > * release their locks before this thread can run again. > + * It accepts SRQ_* informations as flags. > */ > static void > -propagate_priority(struct thread *td) > +propagate_priority(struct thread *td, int flags) > { > struct turnstile *ts; > int pri; > @@ -240,7 +241,7 @@ static void > /* > * Bump this thread's priority. > */ > - sched_lend_prio(td, pri); > + sched_lend_prio(td, pri, flags); > > /* > * If lock holder is actually running or on the run queue > @@ -445,7 +446,7 @@ turnstile_adjust(struct thread *td, u_char oldpri) > td->td_tsqueue == TS_SHARED_QUEUE); > if (td == TAILQ_FIRST(&ts->ts_blocked[td->td_tsqueue]) && > td->td_priority < oldpri) { > - propagate_priority(td); > + propagate_priority(td, 0); > } > } > > @@ -659,7 +660,7 @@ turnstile_claim(struct turnstile *ts) > */ > thread_lock(owner); > if (td->td_priority < owner->td_priority) > - sched_lend_prio(owner, td->td_priority); > + sched_lend_prio(owner, td->td_priority, 0); > thread_unlock(owner); > tc = TC_LOOKUP(ts->ts_lockobj); > mtx_unlock_spin(&ts->ts_lock); > @@ -741,7 +742,7 @@ turnstile_wait(struct turnstile *ts, struct thread > td->td_blktick = ticks; > TD_SET_LOCK(td); > mtx_unlock_spin(&tc->tc_lock); > - propagate_priority(td); > + propagate_priority(td, SRQ_WILLSWITCH); > > if (LOCK_LOG_TEST(lock, 0)) > CTR4(KTR_LOCK, "%s: td %d blocked on [%p] %s", __func__, > -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 19 06:10:13 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A28C106566B for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 06:10:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from mail.zoral.com.ua (mx0.zoral.com.ua [91.193.166.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224CA8FC0C for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 06:10:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q8J6AImI002695; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:10:18 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (kostik@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8J6A6QH042158; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:10:06 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: (from kostik@localhost) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q8J6A5U9042157; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:10:05 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:10:05 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav Message-ID: <20120919061005.GR37286@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> References: <86wqzr8hbk.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0p6fkQojZ86Dx7oG" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86wqzr8hbk.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.2 at skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fdgrowtable() cleanup X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 06:10:13 -0000 --0p6fkQojZ86Dx7oG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 05:46:23PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: > The patch below my signature improves the legibility of fdgrowtable(), > and adds comments explaining the hairier bits. The only functional > change is that the code no longer overwrites the old fileflags array > when the old table is placed on the freelist; instead, it uses the space > actually set aside for that purpose. >=20 > (I assume that the old behavior was harmless, since it has persisted for > decades, but it was certainly confusing.) >=20 > The slightly repetitive nature of the new code is intentional. >=20 > DES > --=20 > Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav - des@des.no >=20 > Index: sys/kern/kern_descrip.c > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > --- sys/kern/kern_descrip.c (revision 240654) > +++ sys/kern/kern_descrip.c (working copy) > @@ -148,11 +148,6 @@ > #define NDSLOTS(x) (((x) + NDENTRIES - 1) / NDENTRIES) > =20 > /* > - * Storage required per open file descriptor. > - */ > -#define OFILESIZE (sizeof(struct file *) + sizeof(char)) > - > -/* > * Storage to hold unused ofiles that need to be reclaimed. > */ > struct freetable { > @@ -1436,7 +1431,7 @@ > struct freetable *fo; > struct file **ntable; > struct file **otable; > - char *nfileflags; > + char *nfileflags, *ofileflags; > int nnfiles, onfiles; > NDSLOTTYPE *nmap; > =20 > @@ -1447,33 +1442,46 @@ > =20 > /* compute the size of the new table */ > onfiles =3D fdp->fd_nfiles; > + otable =3D fdp->fd_ofiles; > + ofileflags =3D fdp->fd_ofileflags; These two new calculations could be unused if the function return early. > nnfiles =3D NDSLOTS(nfd) * NDENTRIES; /* round up */ > if (nnfiles <=3D onfiles) > /* the table is already large enough */ > return; > =20 > - /* allocate a new table and (if required) new bitmaps */ > - ntable =3D malloc((nnfiles * OFILESIZE) + sizeof(struct freetable), > + /* > + * Allocate a new table. We need enough space for a) the file > + * entries themselves, b) the file flags, and c) the struct > + * freetable we will use when we decommission the table and place > + * it on the freelist. > + */ > + ntable =3D malloc(nnfiles * sizeof(*ntable) + > + nnfiles * sizeof(*nfileflags) + > + sizeof(struct freetable), > M_FILEDESC, M_ZERO | M_WAITOK); Please use the horizontal space less lavishly. I think that this calculation, as well as fo calculation below, does not take a required alignment of struct freetable into consideration. > nfileflags =3D (char *)&ntable[nnfiles]; > + > + /* allocate new bitmaps if necessary */ > if (NDSLOTS(nnfiles) > NDSLOTS(onfiles)) > nmap =3D malloc(NDSLOTS(nnfiles) * NDSLOTSIZE, > M_FILEDESC, M_ZERO | M_WAITOK); > else > nmap =3D NULL; > =20 > - bcopy(fdp->fd_ofiles, ntable, onfiles * sizeof(*ntable)); > - bcopy(fdp->fd_ofileflags, nfileflags, onfiles); > - otable =3D fdp->fd_ofiles; > + /* copy the old data over and point at the new tables */ > + bcopy(otable, ntable, onfiles * sizeof(*otable)); > + bcopy(ofileflags, nfileflags, onfiles * sizeof(*ofileflags)); > fdp->fd_ofileflags =3D nfileflags; > fdp->fd_ofiles =3D ntable; > + > /* > * We must preserve ofiles until the process exits because we can't > * be certain that no threads have references to the old table via > * _fget(). > */ > if (onfiles > NDFILE) { > - fo =3D (struct freetable *)&otable[onfiles]; > + fo =3D (struct freetable *)(char *)otable + > + onfiles * sizeof(*otable) + onfiles * sizeof(*ofileflags); > fdp0 =3D (struct filedesc0 *)fdp; > fo->ft_table =3D otable; > SLIST_INSERT_HEAD(&fdp0->fd_free, fo, ft_next); > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" --0p6fkQojZ86Dx7oG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (FreeBSD) iEUEARECAAYFAlBZYb0ACgkQC3+MBN1Mb4ieowCVGSDK2XOcFD9sTCgsq/ErfCBo rwCeOxO292mbQ0ClxXwS8D97zx0Pc9U= =TBJL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0p6fkQojZ86Dx7oG-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 19 07:33:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D8B4106564A; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:33:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lb0-f182.google.com (mail-lb0-f182.google.com [209.85.217.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0FD8FC08; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:33:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lbbgg13 with SMTP id gg13so716945lbb.13 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 00:33:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=NC28xv6dmwd8sDkrrRh6mnWAD4BGvFF0SVCD3a8Z8l4=; b=fIXNPPLuN0jqC8+f9Gi41QY9HB7IghAOlcl99HCGX9vm4pyQj6/D0YCBfgN320Fjwz XcyJbrbBkgFuZnR8per5svK//dANm5wquc3zk+qXzXbjzQYwSzYWY0pPgU8FIZ/2IsCc J2krnnMBVbuHh8qxkWYZGu61g9j9aJ1p4talyBbPE1VlAfAKVoZSBBvQwf1SoZWQXc51 P/GQtdhMyhIhP1WIpl0G1SY0bfWZb9IIyEo3uivZFi4KoesJd8/qm17B92eWKmDXwlJl 8iiRNcF/vvZVxMfBCeqL/kl+e7uCOmYEKumSgdHYonwkQKCidd3t1p2dGadxbPrhLkrS RzOA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.112.233 with SMTP id it9mr1877561lab.40.1348040031905; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 00:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.102.39 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 00:33:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <50596019.5060708@FreeBSD.org> References: <50587F8D.9060102@FreeBSD.org> <5058C68B.1010508@FreeBSD.org> <50596019.5060708@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:33:51 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: MKVOak4DfQYeJ2NWf35VvsWNbok Message-ID: From: Attilio Rao To: Andriy Gapon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers , Jeff Roberson Subject: Re: ule+smp: small optimization for turnstile priority lending X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: attilio@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:33:55 -0000 On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 19/09/2012 02:01 Attilio Rao said the following: >> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Andriy Gapon wrote: >>> on 18/09/2012 19:50 Attilio Rao said the following: >>>> On 9/18/12, Andriy Gapon wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Here is a snippet that demonstrates the issue on a supposedly fully loaded >>>>> 2-processor system: >>>>> >>>>> 136794 0 3670427870244462 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>>>> state:"running", attributes: prio:122 >>>>> >>>>> 136793 0 3670427870241000 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"cc1plus tid >>>>> 111916", >>>>> state:"yielding", attributes: prio:183, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"(null)" >>>>> >>>>> 136792 1 3670427870240829 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"idle: cpu1 tid >>>>> 100004", >>>>> state:"running", attributes: prio:255 >>>>> >>>>> 136791 1 3670427870239520 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", >>>>> counter:0, >>>>> attributes: none >>>>> >>>>> 136790 1 3670427870239248 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >>>>> 113473", >>>>> state:"blocked", attributes: prio:122, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"unp_mtx" >>>>> >>>>> 136789 1 3670427870237697 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 0 load", >>>>> counter:2, >>>>> attributes: none >>>>> >>>>> 136788 1 3670427870236394 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >>>>> 113473", >>>>> point:"wokeup", attributes: linkedto:"Xorg tid 102818" >>>>> >>>>> 136787 1 3670427870236145 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>>>> state:"runq add", attributes: prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid 113473" >>>>> >>>>> 136786 1 3670427870235981 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", >>>>> counter:1, >>>>> attributes: none >>>>> >>>>> 136785 1 3670427870235707 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>>>> state:"runq rem", attributes: prio:176 >>>>> >>>>> 136784 1 3670427870235423 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", >>>>> point:"prio", attributes: prio:176, new prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid >>>>> 113473" >>>>> >>>>> 136783 1 3670427870202392 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid >>>>> 113473", >>>>> state:"running", attributes: prio:104 >>>>> >>>>> See how how the Xorg thread was forced from CPU 1 to CPU 0 where it >>>>> preempted >>>>> cc1plus thread (I do have preemption enabled) only to leave CPU 1 with zero >>>>> load. >>>> >>>> I think that the idea is bright, but I have reservations against the >>>> implementation because it seems to me there are too many layering >>>> violations. >>> >>> Just one - for a layer between tunrstile and scheduler :-) >>> But I agree. >>> >>>> What is suggest is somewhat summarized like that: >>>> - Add a new SRQ_WILLSLEEP or the name you prefer >>>> - Add a new "flags" argument to sched_lend_prio() (both ule and 4bsd) >>>> and sched_thread_priority (ule only) >>>> - sched_thread_priority() will pass down the new flag to sched_add() >>>> which passed down to sched_pickcpu(). >>>> >>>> This way sched_pickcpu() has the correct knowledge of what is going on >>>> and it can make the right decision. You likely don't need to lower the >>>> tdq_load at that time either this way, because sched_pickcpu() can >>>> just adjust it locally for its decision. >>>> >>>> What do you think? >>> >>> This sounds easy but it is not quite so given the implementation of >>> sched_pickcpu and sched_lowest. This is probably more work than I am able to >>> take now. >> >> I think actually that the attached patch should do what you need. Of >> course there is more runqueue locking, due to the tdq_load fondling, >> but I'm not sure it is really a big deal. >> I didn't test it yet, as I understand you have a test case, so maybe >> you can. However if Jeff agrees I can send the patch to flo@ for >> performance evaluation. >> >> Thoughts? > > Originally I had a similar patch with a small difference that I did tdq_load > manipulations in sched_thread_priority around sched_add call. That patch > produced a deadlock because of the need for TDQ_LOCK. It is hard for me to tell if this is subject to same issues because I do not entirely understand where the locking was happening in your patch. Can you try testing this with your already KTR instrumented test and possibly report? Thanks, Attilio -- Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 19 09:19:23 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D077106566B for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:19:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erik@cederstrand.dk) Received: from csmtp2.one.com (csmtp2.one.com [91.198.169.22]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606668FC15 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:19:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.18] (unknown [217.157.7.221]) by csmtp2.one.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2DCF23078C32 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:19:16 +0000 (UTC) From: Erik Cederstrand Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <63FCC95F-7D73-423D-892D-DB5D75BCEBE7@cederstrand.dk> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:19:15 +0200 To: FreeBSD Hackers Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.0 \(1486\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1486) Cc: Subject: NDEBUG and assert() X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:19:23 -0000 Hello, I'm sifting through the Clang Analyzer reports and decided to take a = look at this one: = http://scan.freebsd.your.org/freebsd-head/lib.ncurses.menu/2012-09-16-amd6= 4/report-3vc5Zu.html#Path5 If you mouseover the assert() in line 236, the problem is that assert() = resolves to "(void)0" so the analyzer doesn't know that item is non-null = later on. Since this is contrib code, my best bet to fix it is to enable = assert()'s in our build code for ncurses. That way, users will get an = assertion error describing the real problem, instead of a null pointer = dereference or garbage data. My assumption here is that nurses is not = performance-sensitive so an extra assert() here and there is OK. lib/ncurses/config.mk has "CFLAGS+=3D -DNDEBUG". If I remove this, = contrib/ncurses/include/MKncurses_def.sh just makes sure NDEBUG is set = to 0 instead of 1. However, include/assert.h just tests for "ifdef = NDEBUG" to decide whether to actually assert or just return (void)0, so = it also returns (void)0 when NDEBUG=3D0. This was obviously not what the = ncurses author intended. By changing "ifdef NDEBUG" to "if NDEBUG" the = value of NDEBUG is evaluated to true or false. The below below patch will let the analyzer reason correctly about the = code, and removes the report mentioned above (and a handful others in = ncurses). It doesn't touch contrib code, but I'm not happy about = changing include/assert.h since it's used so many other places. Any = other ideas for how to best solve this? Kind regards, Erik Cederstrand Index: lib/ncurses/ncurses/ncurses_cfg.h =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --- lib/ncurses/ncurses/ncurses_cfg.h (revision 240638) +++ lib/ncurses/ncurses/ncurses_cfg.h (working copy) @@ -145,7 +145,7 @@ #define NCURSES_NO_PADDING 1 #define NCURSES_PATHSEP ':' #define NCURSES_VERSION_STRING "5.7.20081102" -#define NDEBUG 1 +#define NDEBUG 0 #define RETSIGTYPE void #define SIG_ATOMIC_T volatile sig_atomic_t #define SIZEOF_SIGNED_CHAR 1 Index: lib/ncurses/config.mk =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --- lib/ncurses/config.mk (revision 240638) +++ lib/ncurses/config.mk (working copy) @@ -27,8 +27,6 @@ =20 CFLAGS+=3D -Wall =20 -CFLAGS+=3D -DNDEBUG - CFLAGS+=3D -DHAVE_CONFIG_H =20 # everyone needs this Index: include/assert.h =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --- include/assert.h (revision 240638) +++ include/assert.h (working copy) @@ -45,7 +45,7 @@ #undef assert #undef _assert =20 -#ifdef NDEBUG +#if NDEBUG #define assert(e) ((void)0) #define _assert(e) ((void)0) #else From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 19 10:18:03 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4875D106564A for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:18:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erik@cederstrand.dk) Received: from csmtp2.one.com (csmtp2.one.com [91.198.169.22]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B7F8FC08 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:18:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.18] (unknown [217.157.7.221]) by csmtp2.one.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 13AA1307863E for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:18:02 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.0 \(1486\)) From: Erik Cederstrand In-Reply-To: <63FCC95F-7D73-423D-892D-DB5D75BCEBE7@cederstrand.dk> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 12:18:01 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <63FCC95F-7D73-423D-892D-DB5D75BCEBE7@cederstrand.dk> To: FreeBSD Hackers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1486) Cc: Subject: Re: NDEBUG and assert() X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:18:03 -0000 Den 19/09/2012 kl. 11.19 skrev Erik Cederstrand : > The below below patch will let the analyzer reason correctly about the = code, and removes the report mentioned above (and a handful others in = ncurses). It doesn't touch contrib code, but I'm not happy about = changing include/assert.h since it's used so many other places. Any = other ideas for how to best solve this? An alternative that doesn't touch assert.h but contains a patch to = /contrib: Erik Index: lib/ncurses/ncurses/ncurses_cfg.h =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --- lib/ncurses/ncurses/ncurses_cfg.h (revision 240638) +++ lib/ncurses/ncurses/ncurses_cfg.h (working copy) @@ -145,7 +145,6 @@ #define NCURSES_NO_PADDING 1 #define NCURSES_PATHSEP ':' #define NCURSES_VERSION_STRING "5.7.20081102" -#define NDEBUG 1 #define RETSIGTYPE void #define SIG_ATOMIC_T volatile sig_atomic_t #define SIZEOF_SIGNED_CHAR 1 Index: lib/ncurses/config.mk =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --- lib/ncurses/config.mk (revision 240638) +++ lib/ncurses/config.mk (working copy) @@ -27,8 +27,6 @@ =20 CFLAGS+=3D -Wall =20 -CFLAGS+=3D -DNDEBUG - CFLAGS+=3D -DHAVE_CONFIG_H =20 # everyone needs this Index: contrib/ncurses/include/ncurses_defs =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --- contrib/ncurses/include/ncurses_defs (revision 240638) +++ contrib/ncurses/include/ncurses_defs (working copy) @@ -171,7 +171,6 @@ NCURSES_EXT_FUNCS NCURSES_NO_PADDING NCURSES_PATHSEP ':' -NDEBUG NEED_PTEM_H NO_LEAKS PURE_TERMINFO From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 19 10:23:14 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AD7B106564A for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:23:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yanegomi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA758FC08 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:23:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so1117064obb.13 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 03:23:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eOerRcMNF+TEAKJaWyO0CP8JG9x4jpPlZhttsPfMI8s=; b=BMc/uNVARekCv5BhMGj/I4usbGRpYd1mdGQYVhZrJaIaAWU63ewbgj2V8kKCnkBWMt IhHrvKJ1rvESTzwtJADNuoSq2r+cYdiORgE+U7RaIc3W+Mhu0/g9XUxKHadCn+ZbM21Y a9YfPLgrnfUBWnfxOqgNH7FIlgWvd2iFNnDEgY6x6j0fYROga/XzWB7ZPRFxT42VBhsu xvJH6CEwE9kbs9QXXGLcybJcn/YMigCuhrA1aeEnWuYlZq4T8kKNSfID2Y+2oXhSvlrg qxbLCPPKJMG5j0QOr4ikXLIvKIEK9ysA5OWAQso9oJaWP+XCL7fnXxtQtRproC7vuUUw rvbA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.19.195 with SMTP id h3mr2519693oee.102.1348050193096; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 03:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.142.201 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 03:23:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <63FCC95F-7D73-423D-892D-DB5D75BCEBE7@cederstrand.dk> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 03:23:13 -0700 Message-ID: From: Garrett Cooper To: Erik Cederstrand Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: NDEBUG and assert() X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:23:14 -0000 On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 3:18 AM, Erik Cederstrand wro= te: > Den 19/09/2012 kl. 11.19 skrev Erik Cederstrand : > >> The below below patch will let the analyzer reason correctly about the c= ode, and removes the report mentioned above (and a handful others in ncurse= s). It doesn't touch contrib code, but I'm not happy about changing include= /assert.h since it's used so many other places. Any other ideas for how to = best solve this? > > An alternative that doesn't touch assert.h but contains a patch to /contr= ib: This should be disabled [in part because it can be properly enabled with WITH_ASSERT_DEBUG=3Dyes in /etc/src.conf]. Thanks! -Garrett From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 19 12:25:10 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D722B1065673; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 12:25:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACC5B8FC12; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 12:25:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from jhbbsd.localnet (unknown [209.249.190.124]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CD04EB964; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:25:09 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Mark Felder Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:09:36 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (FreeBSD/8.2-CBSD-20110714-p17; KDE/4.5.5; amd64; ; ) References: <5051F7A0.90901@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201209190809.36161.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Andriy Gapon Subject: Re: Please help me diagnose this crazy VMWare/FreeBSD 8.x crash X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 12:25:10 -0000 On Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:14:49 pm Mark Felder wrote: > On Thu, 13 Sep 2012 10:11:28 -0500, Andriy Gapon wrote: > > > Just curious - does VMWare provide a remote debugger support (gdb stub)? > > I'm not aware of one. What I have been able to successfully do is break > into the debugger during the hang but the info I've posted so far has not > been relevant to anyone. I'm hoping someone on the core team will > eventually be able to follow my guide and figure out what went wrong. So the last e-mail I sent before this week I asked if you could get a crashdump from DDB? The "flswai" case you pointed to was a lock deadlock, and having a crashdump would be really helpful for figuring out which threads were deadlocked. Barring a crashdump, capturing 'ps' output from DDB would be a good first step (you can sanitize process names if you need to). However, a crashdump that you can use kgdb on will make debugging this significantly easier. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 19 16:52:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D9B106566C for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 16:52:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 870588FC1A for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 16:52:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088A56FD8; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 18:51:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C067385EE; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 14:58:03 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Konstantin Belousov References: <86wqzr8hbk.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120919061005.GR37286@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 14:58:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20120919061005.GR37286@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> (Konstantin Belousov's message of "Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:10:05 +0300") Message-ID: <86lig6map1.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fdgrowtable() cleanup X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 16:52:04 -0000 Konstantin Belousov writes: > "Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav" writes: > > + otable =3D fdp->fd_ofiles; > > + ofileflags =3D fdp->fd_ofileflags; > These two new calculations could be unused if the function return early. I assume you mean assignments, not calculations. I trust the compiler to move them to where they are needed - a trivial optimization with SSA. > > + ntable =3D malloc(nnfiles * sizeof(*ntable) + > > + nnfiles * sizeof(*nfileflags) + > > + sizeof(struct freetable), > > M_FILEDESC, M_ZERO | M_WAITOK); > Please use the horizontal space less lavishly. I was aiming for readability, not compatibility with equipment that went out of use before I was born. > I think that this calculation, as well as fo calculation below, does > not take a required alignment of struct freetable into consideration. Correct, thanks for pointing it out. The easiest solution is to place the struct freetable between the file array and the flag array. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 19 17:54:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FE10106566B for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 17:54:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from mail.zoral.com.ua (mx0.zoral.com.ua [91.193.166.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6278D8FC08 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 17:53:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q8JHs6QF067387; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 20:54:06 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (kostik@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8JHrsd2045052; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 20:53:54 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: (from kostik@localhost) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q8JHrs6T045051; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 20:53:54 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 20:53:54 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav Message-ID: <20120919175354.GV37286@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> References: <86wqzr8hbk.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120919061005.GR37286@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> <86lig6map1.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EAxp3f1s+pEXSACT" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86lig6map1.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.2 at skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fdgrowtable() cleanup X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 17:54:01 -0000 --EAxp3f1s+pEXSACT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 02:58:02PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: > Konstantin Belousov writes: > > "Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav" writes: > > > + otable =3D fdp->fd_ofiles; > > > + ofileflags =3D fdp->fd_ofileflags; > > These two new calculations could be unused if the function return early. >=20 > I assume you mean assignments, not calculations. I trust the compiler > to move them to where they are needed - a trivial optimization with SSA. It is a dereference before the assignment, so I perceive it as the calculation. No, I do not think that compiler can move the dereference, because there are many sequential points between the calculation and use of the result. >=20 > > > + ntable =3D malloc(nnfiles * sizeof(*ntable) + > > > + nnfiles * sizeof(*nfileflags) + > > > + sizeof(struct freetable), > > > M_FILEDESC, M_ZERO | M_WAITOK); > > Please use the horizontal space less lavishly. >=20 > I was aiming for readability, not compatibility with equipment that went > out of use before I was born. Well, my eyes can only see so many lines in the emacs window. So if you referenced older equipment meaning me being born before you, so be it. :) >=20 > > I think that this calculation, as well as fo calculation below, does > > not take a required alignment of struct freetable into consideration. >=20 > Correct, thanks for pointing it out. The easiest solution is to place > the struct freetable between the file array and the flag array. As I know, for all ABIs FreeBSD run on, the structure alignment is the alignment of the most requiring member. You would introduce very tacit dependency between struct file and struct freetable. --EAxp3f1s+pEXSACT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAlBaBrIACgkQC3+MBN1Mb4hjtgCgmNUya61J4VWgGSllJn1dbHeL KT0An2hj2M6XWopB1+Ak/w6eDtAz76mE =rNl1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --EAxp3f1s+pEXSACT-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 19 19:04:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFBE01065680 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 19:04:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80C4B8FC0A for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 19:04:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439406023; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 21:04:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E6858860C; Wed, 19 Sep 2012 21:04:31 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Konstantin Belousov References: <86wqzr8hbk.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120919061005.GR37286@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> <86lig6map1.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120919175354.GV37286@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 21:04:30 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20120919175354.GV37286@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> (Konstantin Belousov's message of "Wed, 19 Sep 2012 20:53:54 +0300") Message-ID: <864nmtn8ap.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fdgrowtable() cleanup X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 19:04:33 -0000 Konstantin Belousov writes: > "Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav" writes: > > I assume you mean assignments, not calculations. I trust the compiler > > to move them to where they are needed - a trivial optimization with SSA. > It is a dereference before the assignment, so I perceive it as the > calculation. No, I do not think that compiler can move the dereference, > because there are many sequential points between the calculation and > use of the result. Sequence points are a language feature and are only meaningful in the translation phase. Once the code is in SSA form or some other equivalent intermediate representation, the compiler can see that the variables are only used in one specific case and move the assignments inside that block. In fact, it will probably optimize them away, because they are completely unnecessary - I added them solely for readability after Niclas called my attention to the fact that it is almost impossible to understand fdgrowtable() at a first reading. > > Correct, thanks for pointing it out. The easiest solution is to place > > the struct freetable between the file array and the flag array. > As I know, for all ABIs FreeBSD run on, the structure alignment is the > alignment of the most requiring member. You would introduce very tacit > dependency between struct file and struct freetable. The existing code *already* places the struct freetable immediately after the struct file array. What I'm proposing now is to leave the struct freetable where it was but move the fileflags array so they don't overlap. The fileflags array is actually a char[] and has no alignment requirement. Memory usage will not increase, because the code already allocates additional space for the struct freetable to make sure it will fit even if onfiles < sizeof(struct freetable). BTW, I just noticed that there is some dead code in fdgrowtable(): nnfiles =3D NDSLOTS(nfd) * NDENTRIES; /* round up */ if (nnfiles <=3D onfiles) /* the table is already large enough */ return; /* ... */ /* allocate new bitmaps if necessary */ if (NDSLOTS(nnfiles) > NDSLOTS(onfiles)) nmap =3D malloc(NDSLOTS(nnfiles) * NDSLOTSIZE, M_FILEDESC, M_ZERO | M_WAITOK); else nmap =3D NULL; Since neither nnflags nor onflags are modified between these two chunks of code, the condition in the second if will always be true. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 20 08:24:06 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3111065670; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 08:24:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from davidxu@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F0BE8FC0C; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 08:24:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from xyf.my.dom (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8K8O4hq078897; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 08:24:05 GMT (envelope-from davidxu@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <505AD2A5.6060008@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 16:24:05 +0800 From: David Xu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD i386; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120822 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andriy Gapon References: <50587F8D.9060102@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <50587F8D.9060102@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers , Jeff Roberson Subject: Re: ule+smp: small optimization for turnstile priority lending X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 08:24:06 -0000 On 2012/09/18 22:05, Andriy Gapon wrote: > > Here is a snippet that demonstrates the issue on a supposedly fully loaded > 2-processor system: > > 136794 0 3670427870244462 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", > state:"running", attributes: prio:122 > > 136793 0 3670427870241000 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"cc1plus tid 111916", > state:"yielding", attributes: prio:183, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"(null)" > > 136792 1 3670427870240829 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"idle: cpu1 tid 100004", > state:"running", attributes: prio:255 > > 136791 1 3670427870239520 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", counter:0, > attributes: none > > 136790 1 3670427870239248 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid 113473", > state:"blocked", attributes: prio:122, wmesg:"(null)", lockname:"unp_mtx" > > 136789 1 3670427870237697 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 0 load", counter:2, > attributes: none > > 136788 1 3670427870236394 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid 113473", > point:"wokeup", attributes: linkedto:"Xorg tid 102818" > > 136787 1 3670427870236145 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", > state:"runq add", attributes: prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid 113473" > > 136786 1 3670427870235981 KTRGRAPH group:"load", id:"CPU 1 load", counter:1, > attributes: none > > 136785 1 3670427870235707 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", > state:"runq rem", attributes: prio:176 > > 136784 1 3670427870235423 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"Xorg tid 102818", > point:"prio", attributes: prio:176, new prio:122, linkedto:"firefox tid 113473" > > 136783 1 3670427870202392 KTRGRAPH group:"thread", id:"firefox tid 113473", > state:"running", attributes: prio:104 > > See how how the Xorg thread was forced from CPU 1 to CPU 0 where it preempted > cc1plus thread (I do have preemption enabled) only to leave CPU 1 with zero load. > > Here is a proposed solution: > > turnstile_wait: optimize priority lending to a thread on a runqueue > > As the current thread is definitely going into mi_switch, it now removes > its load before doing priority propagation which can potentially result > in sched_add. In the SMP && ULE case the latter searches for the > least loaded CPU to place a boosted thread, which is supposedly about > to run. > > diff --git a/sys/kern/sched_ule.c b/sys/kern/sched_ule.c > index 8e466cd..3299cae 100644 > --- a/sys/kern/sched_ule.c > +++ b/sys/kern/sched_ule.c > @@ -1878,7 +1878,10 @@ sched_switch(struct thread *td, struct thread *newtd, int > flags) > /* This thread must be going to sleep. */ > TDQ_LOCK(tdq); > mtx = thread_lock_block(td); > - tdq_load_rem(tdq, td); > +#if defined(SMP) > + if ((flags & SW_TYPE_MASK) != SWT_TURNSTILE) > +#endif > + tdq_load_rem(tdq, td); > } > /* > * We enter here with the thread blocked and assigned to the > @@ -2412,6 +2415,21 @@ sched_rem(struct thread *td) > tdq_setlowpri(tdq, NULL); > } > > +void > +sched_load_rem(struct thread *td) > +{ > + struct tdq *tdq; > + > + KASSERT(td == curthread, > + ("sched_rem_load: only curthread is supported")); > + KASSERT(td->td_oncpu == td->td_sched->ts_cpu, > + ("thread running on cpu different from ts_cpu")); > + tdq = TDQ_CPU(td->td_sched->ts_cpu); > + TDQ_LOCK_ASSERT(tdq, MA_OWNED); > + MPASS(td->td_lock == TDQ_LOCKPTR(tdq)); > + tdq_load_rem(tdq, td); > +} > + > /* > * Fetch cpu utilization information. Updates on demand. > */ > diff --git a/sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c b/sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c > index 31d16fe..d1d68e9 100644 > --- a/sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c > +++ b/sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c > @@ -731,6 +731,13 @@ turnstile_wait(struct turnstile *ts, struct thread *owner, > int queue) > LIST_INSERT_HEAD(&ts->ts_free, td->td_turnstile, ts_hash); > } > thread_lock(td); > +#if defined(SCHED_ULE) && defined(SMP) > + /* > + * Remove load earlier so that it does not affect cpu selection > + * for a thread waken up due to priority lending, if any. > + */ > + sched_load_rem(td); > +#endif > thread_lock_set(td, &ts->ts_lock); > td->td_turnstile = NULL; > > diff --git a/sys/sys/sched.h b/sys/sys/sched.h > index 4b8387c..b1ead1b 100644 > --- a/sys/sys/sched.h > +++ b/sys/sys/sched.h > @@ -110,6 +110,9 @@ void sched_preempt(struct thread *td); > void sched_add(struct thread *td, int flags); > void sched_clock(struct thread *td); > void sched_rem(struct thread *td); > +#if defined(SCHED_ULE) && defined(SMP) > +void sched_load_rem(struct thread *td); > +#endif > void sched_tick(int cnt); > void sched_relinquish(struct thread *td); > struct thread *sched_choose(void); > I found another scenario in taskqueue, in the function taskqueue_terminate, current thread tries to wake another thread up and sleep immediately, the tq_mutex sometimes is a spinlock. So if you remove one thread load from current cpu before wakeup, the resumed thread may be put on same cpu, so it will optimize the cpu scheduling too. /* * Signal a taskqueue thread to terminate. */ static void taskqueue_terminate(struct thread **pp, struct taskqueue *tq) { while (tq->tq_tcount > 0 || tq->tq_callouts > 0) { wakeup(tq); TQ_SLEEP(tq, pp, &tq->tq_mutex, PWAIT, "taskqueue_destroy", 0); } } From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 20 09:03:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2E0106566C for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 09:03:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from mail.zoral.com.ua (mx0.zoral.com.ua [91.193.166.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B43348FC1E for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 09:03:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.zoral.com.ua (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q8K93JJu041520; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 12:03:20 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (kostik@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8K9370S049969; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 12:03:07 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: (from kostik@localhost) by deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q8K937tp049968; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 12:03:07 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 12:03:07 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav Message-ID: <20120920090307.GY37286@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> References: <86wqzr8hbk.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120919061005.GR37286@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> <86lig6map1.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120919175354.GV37286@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> <864nmtn8ap.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="36OpTq80o519DUb3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <864nmtn8ap.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.2 at skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on skuns.kiev.zoral.com.ua Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fdgrowtable() cleanup X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 09:03:15 -0000 --36OpTq80o519DUb3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 09:04:30PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: > Konstantin Belousov writes: > > "Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav" writes: > > > I assume you mean assignments, not calculations. I trust the compiler > > > to move them to where they are needed - a trivial optimization with S= SA. > > It is a dereference before the assignment, so I perceive it as the > > calculation. No, I do not think that compiler can move the dereference, > > because there are many sequential points between the calculation and > > use of the result. >=20 > Sequence points are a language feature and are only meaningful in the > translation phase. Once the code is in SSA form or some other > equivalent intermediate representation, the compiler can see that the > variables are only used in one specific case and move the assignments > inside that block. In fact, it will probably optimize them away, > because they are completely unnecessary - I added them solely for > readability after Niclas called my attention to the fact that it is > almost impossible to understand fdgrowtable() at a first reading. Compiler cannot change the semantic of the program regardless of the phase of compilation the change happens at. Compiler that would reorder reads from the global memory across sequential points seems to be not disallowed by c99, but it certainly contradicts to our semantic of the lock releases, which the compiler cannot infer from the non-inlined function calls. Malloc call is the sequential point and does have the release semantic FWIW. >=20 > > > Correct, thanks for pointing it out. The easiest solution is to place > > > the struct freetable between the file array and the flag array. > > As I know, for all ABIs FreeBSD run on, the structure alignment is the > > alignment of the most requiring member. You would introduce very tacit > > dependency between struct file and struct freetable. >=20 > The existing code *already* places the struct freetable immediately > after the struct file array. What I'm proposing now is to leave the > struct freetable where it was but move the fileflags array so they don't > overlap. The fileflags array is actually a char[] and has no alignment > requirement. Ok. >=20 > Memory usage will not increase, because the code already allocates > additional space for the struct freetable to make sure it will fit even > if onfiles < sizeof(struct freetable). >=20 > BTW, I just noticed that there is some dead code in fdgrowtable(): >=20 > nnfiles =3D NDSLOTS(nfd) * NDENTRIES; /* round up */ > if (nnfiles <=3D onfiles) > /* the table is already large enough */ > return; >=20 > /* ... */ >=20 > /* allocate new bitmaps if necessary */ > if (NDSLOTS(nnfiles) > NDSLOTS(onfiles)) > nmap =3D malloc(NDSLOTS(nnfiles) * NDSLOTSIZE, > M_FILEDESC, M_ZERO | M_WAITOK); > else > nmap =3D NULL; >=20 > Since neither nnflags nor onflags are modified between these two chunks > of code, the condition in the second if will always be true. You mean that new bitmap shall be always allocated, making the nmap =3D NULL assignment not needed ? I agree. It would also make the code in the last if () executed unconditionally. --36OpTq80o519DUb3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAlBa28sACgkQC3+MBN1Mb4iMvQCgs8ErLCd+u/rdXJlFY62KSEyL b/0AoOh4rMwY2hPpjBfHwu14/zyRA0Re =BFWO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --36OpTq80o519DUb3-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 20 11:04:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD4C0106566B; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:04:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B508FC15; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:04:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id OAA15337; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:04:25 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1TEeYS-000ELe-Mm; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:04:24 +0300 Message-ID: <505AF836.7050004@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:04:22 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120913 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: attilio@FreeBSD.org References: <50587F8D.9060102@FreeBSD.org> <5058C68B.1010508@FreeBSD.org> <50596019.5060708@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers , Jeff Roberson Subject: Re: ule+smp: small optimization for turnstile priority lending X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:04:28 -0000 on 19/09/2012 10:33 Attilio Rao said the following: > It is hard for me to tell if this is subject to same issues because I > do not entirely understand where the locking was happening in your > patch. > Can you try testing this with your already KTR instrumented test and > possibly report? The patch works well as far as I can tell. Thank you! There is one warning with full witness enables but it appears to be harmless (so far): Acquiring duplicate lock of same type: "sched lock" 1st sched lock 1 @ /usr/src/sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c:212 2nd sched lock 0 @ /usr/src/sys/kern/sched_ule.c:1244 KDB: stack backtrace: db_trace_self_wrapper() at 0xffffffff802d238a = db_trace_self_wrapper+0x2a kdb_backtrace() at 0xffffffff80555f4a = kdb_backtrace+0x3a _witness_debugger() at 0xffffffff8056e2bc = _witness_debugger+0x2c witness_checkorder() at 0xffffffff8056f759 = witness_checkorder+0x579 _mtx_lock_spin_flags() at 0xffffffff80504bcd = _mtx_lock_spin_flags+0x10d sched_pickcpu() at 0xffffffff80547829 = sched_pickcpu+0x199 sched_add() at 0xffffffff80547bdb = sched_add+0x14b sched_thread_priority() at 0xffffffff80548059 = sched_thread_priority+0x1c9 sched_lend_prio() at 0xffffffff80548344 = sched_lend_prio+0x14 propagate_priority() at 0xffffffff8056801e = propagate_priority+0x1ce turnstile_wait() at 0xffffffff8056959f = turnstile_wait+0x4ef _mtx_lock_sleep() at 0xffffffff805045f6 = _mtx_lock_sleep+0x486 _mtx_lock_flags() at 0xffffffff80504814 = _mtx_lock_flags+0x104 lock_mtx() at 0xffffffff805049ca = lock_mtx+0x1a _sleep() at 0xffffffff80524589 = _sleep+0x4f9 taskqueue_thread_loop() at 0xffffffff805664c8 = taskqueue_thread_loop+0xa8 fork_exit() at 0xffffffff804e5d6a = fork_exit+0x1aa fork_trampoline() at 0xffffffff806ea2ce = fork_trampoline+0xe -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 20 11:33:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F085106566C; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:33:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@icyb.net.ua) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9AC8FC12; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:33:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id OAA15749; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:33:18 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@icyb.net.ua) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1TEf0Q-000ENv-9G; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:33:18 +0300 Message-ID: <505AFEFD.8020500@icyb.net.ua> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:33:17 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120913 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: attilio@FreeBSD.org References: <50587F8D.9060102@FreeBSD.org> <5058C68B.1010508@FreeBSD.org> <50596019.5060708@FreeBSD.org> <505AF836.7050004@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <505AF836.7050004@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers , Jeff Roberson Subject: Re: ule+smp: small optimization for turnstile priority lending X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:33:21 -0000 on 20/09/2012 14:04 Andriy Gapon said the following: > on 19/09/2012 10:33 Attilio Rao said the following: >> It is hard for me to tell if this is subject to same issues because I >> do not entirely understand where the locking was happening in your >> patch. >> Can you try testing this with your already KTR instrumented test and >> possibly report? > > The patch works well as far as I can tell. Thank you! After more testing it seems that the idea was not complete. While loads are set better tdq_lowpri (which is generally <= newpri) on the current CPU still prevents the boosted thread from taking advantage of the lowered load. Not sure how to "refresh" tdq_lowpri in this scenario... > There is one warning with full witness enables but it appears to be harmless (so > far): > > Acquiring duplicate lock of same type: "sched lock" > 1st sched lock 1 @ /usr/src/sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c:212 > 2nd sched lock 0 @ /usr/src/sys/kern/sched_ule.c:1244 > KDB: stack backtrace: > db_trace_self_wrapper() at 0xffffffff802d238a = db_trace_self_wrapper+0x2a > kdb_backtrace() at 0xffffffff80555f4a = kdb_backtrace+0x3a > _witness_debugger() at 0xffffffff8056e2bc = _witness_debugger+0x2c > witness_checkorder() at 0xffffffff8056f759 = witness_checkorder+0x579 > _mtx_lock_spin_flags() at 0xffffffff80504bcd = _mtx_lock_spin_flags+0x10d > sched_pickcpu() at 0xffffffff80547829 = sched_pickcpu+0x199 > sched_add() at 0xffffffff80547bdb = sched_add+0x14b > sched_thread_priority() at 0xffffffff80548059 = sched_thread_priority+0x1c9 > sched_lend_prio() at 0xffffffff80548344 = sched_lend_prio+0x14 > propagate_priority() at 0xffffffff8056801e = propagate_priority+0x1ce > turnstile_wait() at 0xffffffff8056959f = turnstile_wait+0x4ef > _mtx_lock_sleep() at 0xffffffff805045f6 = _mtx_lock_sleep+0x486 > _mtx_lock_flags() at 0xffffffff80504814 = _mtx_lock_flags+0x104 > lock_mtx() at 0xffffffff805049ca = lock_mtx+0x1a > _sleep() at 0xffffffff80524589 = _sleep+0x4f9 > taskqueue_thread_loop() at 0xffffffff805664c8 = taskqueue_thread_loop+0xa8 > fork_exit() at 0xffffffff804e5d6a = fork_exit+0x1aa > fork_trampoline() at 0xffffffff806ea2ce = fork_trampoline+0xe > > -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 20 11:34:03 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF951065686; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:34:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F978FC19; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:34:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id OAA15764; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:34:00 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1TEf16-000EO0-DK; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:34:00 +0300 Message-ID: <505AFF27.3070607@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:33:59 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120913 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: attilio@FreeBSD.org References: <50587F8D.9060102@FreeBSD.org> <5058C68B.1010508@FreeBSD.org> <50596019.5060708@FreeBSD.org> <505AF836.7050004@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <505AF836.7050004@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers , Jeff Roberson Subject: Re: ule+smp: small optimization for turnstile priority lending X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:34:03 -0000 on 20/09/2012 14:04 Andriy Gapon said the following: > on 19/09/2012 10:33 Attilio Rao said the following: >> It is hard for me to tell if this is subject to same issues because I >> do not entirely understand where the locking was happening in your >> patch. >> Can you try testing this with your already KTR instrumented test and >> possibly report? > > The patch works well as far as I can tell. Thank you! After more testing it seems that the idea was not complete. While loads are set better tdq_lowpri (which is generally <= newpri) on the current CPU still prevents the boosted thread from taking advantage of the lowered load. Not sure how to "refresh" tdq_lowpri in this scenario... > There is one warning with full witness enables but it appears to be harmless (so > far): > > Acquiring duplicate lock of same type: "sched lock" > 1st sched lock 1 @ /usr/src/sys/kern/subr_turnstile.c:212 > 2nd sched lock 0 @ /usr/src/sys/kern/sched_ule.c:1244 > KDB: stack backtrace: > db_trace_self_wrapper() at 0xffffffff802d238a = db_trace_self_wrapper+0x2a > kdb_backtrace() at 0xffffffff80555f4a = kdb_backtrace+0x3a > _witness_debugger() at 0xffffffff8056e2bc = _witness_debugger+0x2c > witness_checkorder() at 0xffffffff8056f759 = witness_checkorder+0x579 > _mtx_lock_spin_flags() at 0xffffffff80504bcd = _mtx_lock_spin_flags+0x10d > sched_pickcpu() at 0xffffffff80547829 = sched_pickcpu+0x199 > sched_add() at 0xffffffff80547bdb = sched_add+0x14b > sched_thread_priority() at 0xffffffff80548059 = sched_thread_priority+0x1c9 > sched_lend_prio() at 0xffffffff80548344 = sched_lend_prio+0x14 > propagate_priority() at 0xffffffff8056801e = propagate_priority+0x1ce > turnstile_wait() at 0xffffffff8056959f = turnstile_wait+0x4ef > _mtx_lock_sleep() at 0xffffffff805045f6 = _mtx_lock_sleep+0x486 > _mtx_lock_flags() at 0xffffffff80504814 = _mtx_lock_flags+0x104 > lock_mtx() at 0xffffffff805049ca = lock_mtx+0x1a > _sleep() at 0xffffffff80524589 = _sleep+0x4f9 > taskqueue_thread_loop() at 0xffffffff805664c8 = taskqueue_thread_loop+0xa8 > fork_exit() at 0xffffffff804e5d6a = fork_exit+0x1aa > fork_trampoline() at 0xffffffff806ea2ce = fork_trampoline+0xe -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 20 13:14:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE9D106566C; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:14:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lb0-f182.google.com (mail-lb0-f182.google.com [209.85.217.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A21EB8FC0A; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:14:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lbbgg13 with SMTP id gg13so2950698lbb.13 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 06:14:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=bPNnhfa5j2bz1KdmbKwvkFBS72OqgdBuUXgMmvswLE0=; b=QEpi8QAH7EQYFOgm8ZUmJWptnv5qosfAbOt0UZOqvYNpGIOAgsunOtactH0F1Sw97Z ifGVRZfpj0lkz2o1V1eCp4dpdQ+hNyZwnBzQrPp0dv02gBTYGRv19gqp3MORnE8moqwH 6+KPCLLalhWtftzhEyxZyqr+JMxIxAa83IbVP8Md28hHOF8u6n3tj3sK9/cChHTF5+Bz TFzrZ1tDObvQWgRv5Egf22s2SjCuioxL49MvxkvLeC5IZ97kAN5qatBs92cU11p9achU lomTcNDxuSiSftoWiH3kt9VpH7yM0KI8N+foIrSuJnNHDvArifyS3jFYr7TqwrS8oh9l l4XQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.48.70 with SMTP id j6mr1528437lan.57.1348146857253; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 06:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.102.39 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 06:14:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <505AF836.7050004@FreeBSD.org> References: <50587F8D.9060102@FreeBSD.org> <5058C68B.1010508@FreeBSD.org> <50596019.5060708@FreeBSD.org> <505AF836.7050004@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:14:17 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9Tr5aVE4dcxTk6K0PSfjeUkBu3w Message-ID: From: Attilio Rao To: Andriy Gapon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-hackers , Jeff Roberson Subject: Re: ule+smp: small optimization for turnstile priority lending X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: attilio@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:14:19 -0000 On 9/20/12, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 19/09/2012 10:33 Attilio Rao said the following: >> It is hard for me to tell if this is subject to same issues because I >> do not entirely understand where the locking was happening in your >> patch. >> Can you try testing this with your already KTR instrumented test and >> possibly report? > > The patch works well as far as I can tell. Thank you! > There is one warning with full witness enables but it appears to be harmless > (so > far): Andiy, thanks a lot for your testing and reports you made so far. Unfortunately I'm going off for 2 weeks now and I won't work on FreeBSD for that timeframe. I will get back to those in 2 weeks then. If you want to play more with this idea feel free to extend/fix/etc. this patch. Attilio -- Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 21 00:57:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1AC1065670 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2012 00:57:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@engineer.com) Received: from mailout-us.gmx.com (mailout-us.gmx.com [74.208.5.67]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 13F1A8FC1D for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2012 00:57:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 10128 invoked by uid 0); 21 Sep 2012 00:57:43 -0000 Received: from 67.206.186.97 by rms-us009 with HTTP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 20:57:39 -0400 From: "Dieter BSD" Message-ID: <20120921005740.165830@gmx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Authenticated: #74169980 X-Flags: 0001 X-Mailer: GMX.com Web Mailer x-registered: 0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-GMX-UID: 094pcKMh3zOlNR3dAHAhy1B+IGRvb8Ab Subject: Re: FreeBSD 8.0 suddenly freezing X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 00:57:44 -0000 > In the last 72 hours, we've had two different systems freeze; they don't > apparently recognize any interrupts, they won't respond to ping, and > they require a powercycle to reboot. We can't easily generate an NMI on > these boxes. > Just on the off chance, does this sound like a familiar -- and > preferably soluble -- problem? Only theory I can think of is that some device driver shuts off all interrupts and then goes into an infinite loop. I have had trouble with at least four different device drivers locking everything out long enough to lose incoming data. Usually it recovers without a reboot. Not an infinte loop, just way way too long to leave interrupts shut off. See also the "How to diagnose system freezes?" thread from July-August. Yuri found that a particular rev of the nvidia driver went into an infinite loop. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 21 02:18:48 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB710106564A for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2012 02:18:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichfreebsdlist@ovitrap.com) Received: from alogreentechnologies.com (alogreentechnologies.com [67.212.224.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AA9F8FC16 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2012 02:18:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from X220.ovitrap.com ([122.129.201.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by alogreentechnologies.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id q8L2Icxu009688; Thu, 20 Sep 2012 20:18:40 -0600 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 09:18:37 +0700 From: Erich Dollansky To: Charles R Martin Message-ID: <20120921091837.360d908c@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <50579477.20604@corp.sgi.com> References: <50579477.20604@corp.sgi.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0 (GTK+ 2.24.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 8.0 suddenly freezing X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 02:18:49 -0000 Hi, On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:21:59 -0600 Charles R Martin wrote: > We have a web host installation using FreeBSD 8.0, Tomcat, and Java. > We ship many copies of this, and haven't changed the OS load in > several months. > > In the last 72 hours, we've had two different systems freeze; they > don't apparently recognize any interrupts, they won't respond to > ping, and they require a powercycle to reboot. We can't easily > generate an NMI on these boxes. > > No crashdumps were generated. > > Just on the off chance, does this sound like a familiar -- and > preferably soluble -- problem? > I have had 8.0 to 8.3 running on a machine without a single crash, hang or whatever except of problems with sound. A dmesg might will tell some people of problematic hardware. As you write on top of this that you have shipped many copies of it, are the problems happening with the same or at least identical hardware? Erich From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 21 20:37:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD64106566C for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2012 20:37:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from uffe@uffe.org) Received: from mail.starion.dk (mx0.starion.dk [93.162.70.34]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C84E68FC14 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2012 20:37:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 68010 invoked by uid 1004); 21 Sep 2012 20:29:12 -0000 Message-ID: <505CCE62.7090408@uffe.org> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 22:30:26 +0200 From: Uffe Jakobsen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120827 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org References: <505786AC.9010302@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <505786AC.9010302@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-viet-vps; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: serial console "detection" during boot X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 20:37:43 -0000 On 2012-09-17 22:23, Andriy Gapon wrote: > > what do you think of the following two diffs? > +1 > Most likely I overdid various checks in libi386/comconsole.c. > And, obviously, the RETRY_COUNT value is pulled out of thin air. > Any help and suggestions are very welcome. > > With this patch I am able to boot with > boot_multicons="YES" > console="vidconsole,comconsole" > in loader.conf on hardware where serial ports are disabled in BIOS. > Previously loader would just hang trying to apply the console setting. > This patch would be a blessing - I've had problems like the one that you describe. /Uffe From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 22 08:40:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76376106564A; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 08:40:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cochard@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wi0-f172.google.com (mail-wi0-f172.google.com [209.85.212.172]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D19928FC19; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 08:40:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibhi8 with SMTP id hi8so2361241wib.13 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 01:40:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=crBzmta1ULFkUjkx2321GdSNN4wqndli21iy/FrfuYQ=; b=egfm6GcmLvmUar/uDWmynVx9AF2Kc/kC7N315GZ2dsxuvPy4s6h1F3RvzVFLHAZZRx /FmM3pEcmR4sOJqjOm+mH7JAp3lEXEE2ZIhIRROHWwqIFMbHX55th3zAKKzYLy7e0svc OppOWlK7cbKKUZ5B7s5VgWg5yZIT24LNB7U7LhzsWKlra+/yMvAmWP+E03EryK9YMXvh M5YRIe7ty2SOCIeqze98Lf1rmT2WhTc3bVi/Xx2sO8bPMHJ4j3G3Yugb6Y4zvpP6aAO9 mHc1r5N46Y3tr17VXtgWdkBc0l/QYquuvu1/6iwj7HXkLYhXD+7v3BH4nYCrdgwI9J/M Z0tw== Received: by 10.216.241.203 with SMTP id g53mr4190974wer.142.1348303244634; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 01:40:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: cochard@gmail.com Received: by 10.223.157.200 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 01:40:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <505786AC.9010302@FreeBSD.org> References: <505786AC.9010302@FreeBSD.org> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Olivier_Cochard=2DLabb=E9?= Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 10:40:24 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4jhHh6OdVp36J2pDPQ89vbD3OLQ Message-ID: To: Andriy Gapon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: serial console "detection" during boot X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 08:40:46 -0000 On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Andriy Gapon wrote: > > Guys, > > With this patch I am able to boot with > boot_multicons="YES" > console="vidconsole,comconsole" > in loader.conf on hardware where serial ports are disabled in BIOS. > Previously loader would just hang trying to apply the console setting. I confirm that I can boot under Virtualbox without serial port configured with your patch and dual console configuration in /boot/loader.conf. But, I've still the same hang problem with a system configured for booting with dual console configuration like that: echo "-D" > /boot.config Regards, Olivier From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 22 11:16:54 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B39106564A for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 11:16:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D748FC0A for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 11:16:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id OAA06006; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 14:16:45 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1TFNhU-000NHk-NW; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 14:16:44 +0300 Message-ID: <505D9E19.9060506@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 14:16:41 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120913 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Olivier_Cochard-Labb=E9?= References: <505786AC.9010302@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: serial console "detection" during boot X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 11:16:54 -0000 on 22/09/2012 11:40 Olivier Cochard-Labb� said the following: > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Andriy Gapon wrote: >> >> Guys, >> >> With this patch I am able to boot with >> boot_multicons="YES" >> console="vidconsole,comconsole" >> in loader.conf on hardware where serial ports are disabled in BIOS. >> Previously loader would just hang trying to apply the console setting. > > I confirm that I can boot under Virtualbox without serial port > configured with your patch and dual console configuration in > /boot/loader.conf. > > But, I've still the same hang problem with a system configured for > booting with dual console configuration like that: > echo "-D" > /boot.config This is because -D affects behavior of boot2 as well and boot2 uses different serial console code (in BTX). -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 22 15:35:26 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6EDC106566C; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 15:35:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2E58FC12; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 15:35:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id SAA07217; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 18:35:23 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1TFRjn-000NRg-B0; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 18:35:23 +0300 Message-ID: <505DDAB9.6050602@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 18:35:21 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120913 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org References: <505786AC.9010302@FreeBSD.org> <505D9E19.9060506@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <505D9E19.9060506@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Olivier_Cochard-Labb=E9?= , Uffe Jakobsen , John Baldwin Subject: Re: serial console "detection" during boot X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 15:35:26 -0000 Here is an update on the changes: http://people.freebsd.org/~avg/boot-comconsole.diff Please note that the file is actually a patchset that consists of three individual changes: - a generic change in common boot code - libi386 comconsole change - BTX and boot2-ish comconsole change All the code is lightly tested. As I am not an expert in the assembly code and also because boot2 is quite size-sensitive I would like to ask for a special attention to the last change. Thank you!! -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 22 16:05:53 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71BDE106564A; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 16:05:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F3D8FC0A; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 16:05:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id TAA07335; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 19:05:50 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1TFSDG-000NSX-Fk; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 19:05:50 +0300 Message-ID: <505DE1DD.7070506@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 19:05:49 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120913 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=X-VIET-VPS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: kern_exec: check p_tracecred instead of p_cred X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 16:05:53 -0000 Currently even if root ktraces an unprivileged process that execs a sguid executable, then tracing aborted at that point. I think that that happens because wrong credentials are checked at that point. What do you think about the following patch? commit 956a80783bc39162b1d64383188c5037f9767413 Author: Andriy Gapon Date: Sat Sep 22 18:17:46 2012 +0300 kern_exec: check p_tracecred instead of p_cred ... when deciding whether to continue tracing across suid/sgid exec diff --git a/sys/kern/kern_exec.c b/sys/kern/kern_exec.c index 90f7311..8d62c1e 100644 --- a/sys/kern/kern_exec.c +++ b/sys/kern/kern_exec.c @@ -694,7 +694,8 @@ interpret: setsugid(p); #ifdef KTRACE - if (priv_check_cred(oldcred, PRIV_DEBUG_DIFFCRED, 0)) + if (p->p_tracecred != NULL && + priv_check_cred(p->p_tracecred, PRIV_DEBUG_DIFFCRED, 0)) ktrprocexec(p, &tracecred, &tracevp); #endif /* -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 22 17:46:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3820C106566B for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 17:46:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from citadel.icyb.net.ua (citadel.icyb.net.ua [212.40.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8105C8FC0A for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 17:46:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from porto.starpoint.kiev.ua (porto-e.starpoint.kiev.ua [212.40.38.100]) by citadel.icyb.net.ua (8.8.8p3/ICyb-2.3exp) with ESMTP id UAA07720 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 20:46:15 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from avg@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by porto.starpoint.kiev.ua with esmtp (Exim 4.34 (FreeBSD)) id 1TFTmQ-000NWW-MQ for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 20:46:14 +0300 Message-ID: <505DF965.2020506@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 20:46:13 +0300 From: Andriy Gapon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120913 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers References: <50587635.8070007@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <50587635.8070007@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: cpu_spinwait in cngetc X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 17:46:17 -0000 on 18/09/2012 16:25 Andriy Gapon said the following: > > (Why[*]) Would anyone object to a change like this? > > diff --git a/sys/kern/kern_cons.c b/sys/kern/kern_cons.c > index 5346bc3..d17846a 100644 > --- a/sys/kern/kern_cons.c > +++ b/sys/kern/kern_cons.c > @@ -384,7 +384,7 @@ cngetc(void) > if (cn_mute) > return (-1); > while ((c = cncheckc()) == -1) > - ; > + cpu_spinwait(); > if (c == '\r') > c = '\n'; /* console input is always ICRNL */ > return (c); > > [*] :-) > I would to re-ping with this question. Is there any architecture where a cpu_spinwait could cause a surprise? Or is universally safe? The most visible place which this change can affect is ddb prompt. -- Andriy Gapon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 22 22:22:49 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A58A1065670; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 22:22:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cochard@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wg0-f50.google.com (mail-wg0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 828C78FC19; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 22:22:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wgi16 with SMTP id 16so3531857wgi.31 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 15:22:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=dcDbpX9NBB4CcPlGmhn88wS9p6VDC1Cw9fEWPFjqXno=; b=WYXCy3+x8wJt7RzUtS/UYgHN/dD1BKyMgZkfHMJCMvKS24RTPNrDzGoP4iouDXXnHb aQL2e4ij9PUEMOp8M8p9HB8QBcsKaT72qkpMzC6oepIZODCxw1V0XNte/00wWJyPVgfi OMoFh5h5VIujyNZwnSfmhsKn6zPeC4+OuEIaXxgYDJ70o0D/uBprhzlETISOtm07TLOL MP3ux04UUiaURGXQ7yDYjYEkmguep+6e0NmWDUh/aIQVVa/pe23dlhgFuUUQ5p3Kv95e 47dMoE4OWNkJEYfY7KRCh9W50T5RDvmL9IZxr7VG/eqcMpTzxYJEeCinxb23SOkul/u1 hDXg== Received: by 10.181.13.208 with SMTP id fa16mr5046645wid.11.1348352567345; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 15:22:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: cochard@gmail.com Received: by 10.223.157.200 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Sep 2012 15:22:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <505DDAB9.6050602@FreeBSD.org> References: <505786AC.9010302@FreeBSD.org> <505D9E19.9060506@FreeBSD.org> <505DDAB9.6050602@FreeBSD.org> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Olivier_Cochard=2DLabb=E9?= Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 00:22:27 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: VUW5AXwpsuIK7tsRkwoFb-x8lPs Message-ID: To: Andriy Gapon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: serial console "detection" during boot X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 22:22:49 -0000 On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Andriy Gapon wrote: > > Here is an update on the changes: > http://people.freebsd.org/~avg/boot-comconsole.diff > Patch applied on 9.1-RC1 with success. Tested under virtualbox with /boot.config that include "-D" and multi-console in /boot/loader.conf with these VM configurations: - vga and serial port: OK - vga only: OK And under qemu with a "-nographic" option: OK Thanks a lot's ! Olivier