From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 6 01:17:47 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3366CE0C; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 01:17:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from koobs.freebsd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pa0-x236.google.com (mail-pa0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 057E82EE5; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 01:17:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id kx10so5752085pab.13 for ; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 18:17:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Vbe6/dh/jnqAjY/Y/EmkRSJs440TrZAr9Mgq3XlBpzo=; b=yepjHlqhJBjnexQJ2I1hWV/228yS9vOwlyVjjAavhaHuylcuO68ogdlFw9c2vPDPH6 wKDhVxQHkQSPp8OmcafEErGsWHgFs2cYEtE9/P+NXHMi+mzNrI2ixAcivA8WHXLX2tsI M06cTK1JU0ONuePZ+n+Of1QX7SAqGtWJjFvXis5h7QTALjeS42JvQcqAf9jHvEp53Z2e aggPW0ocWTsm/McBgs9BoLTUwg+/VykuNnIgvMoEhnrQOYn8fd1nfqHyNjYvm4WSMmOr ZAov2vJLYarsI9icn7xjOkfF/1UkdfYMzmpQbKFSYvXLilLX84K0TbQaS4G8QiGhqYyP saxQ== X-Received: by 10.66.171.204 with SMTP id aw12mr23791898pac.7.1381022266593; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 18:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.7] (ppp59-167-128-11.static.internode.on.net. [59.167.128.11]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id rv9sm23864282pbc.4.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 05 Oct 2013 18:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5250BA2E.3030409@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 12:17:34 +1100 From: Kubilay Kocak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rodrigo OSORIO Subject: Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors References: <201310031535.r93FZ6D1095088@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> <20131003153825.GB1581@oldfaithful.bebik.local> In-Reply-To: <20131003153825.GB1581@oldfaithful.bebik.local> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Anton Shterenlikht , doc@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: koobs@FreeBSD.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 01:17:47 -0000 On 4/10/2013 1:38 AM, Rodrigo OSORIO wrote: > Maybe the question is : "have they found what they are looking for ?" > Thats a good question Rodrigo and right on point. Bounce rates, without also identifying *legitimate* (and/or desirable) exit points cant alone help us determine if a user has achieved their objective or not. Among other things, marking actions on pages with GA labels will differentiate many of these cases from the pathological and begins to place 'our user goals' *first* as the primary definition of success. You cant manage or improve what you dont measure. -- Koobs From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 6 03:31:51 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2B68CB2; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 03:31:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com) Received: from alogt.com (alogt.com [69.36.191.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88C8E2411; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 03:31:51 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alogt.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Mime-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=fi1TcGTl8GOuxAd+cc2NKHBkK7cavfo4uKx/pVSDDTE=; b=IUlE1DiarFBKs4XXC3WOIXTaidS5eC7pH2XnDtM5d0xsRTw5EQM8TbQKmiRJsiRANyLCYO0pbpcqHQKwsSd18WIxnlCI1aWrk3EBIsERtRTNhbGNch8OkwIHFwbOKykafMfEdKNAyqCGXZsvEZE6Vc4375bZfDLgKuXhdx2hBAA=; Received: from [182.9.140.79] (port=13247 helo=X220.ovitrap.com) by sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net with esmtpsa (SSLv3:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VSe6d-002n25-8X; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 20:30:04 -0600 Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 10:29:55 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors Message-ID: <20131006102955.4191e4a4@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <5250BA2E.3030409@FreeBSD.org> References: <201310031535.r93FZ6D1095088@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> <20131003153825.GB1581@oldfaithful.bebik.local> <5250BA2E.3030409@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.2 (GTK+ 2.24.19; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - alogt.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net: authenticated_id: erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: koobs@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 03:31:51 -0000 Hi, On Sun, 06 Oct 2013 12:17:34 +1100 Kubilay Kocak wrote: > On 4/10/2013 1:38 AM, Rodrigo OSORIO wrote: > > Maybe the question is : "have they found what they are looking > > for ?" > > > > Thats a good question Rodrigo and right on point. > > Bounce rates, without also identifying *legitimate* (and/or desirable) > exit points cant alone help us determine if a user has achieved their > objective or not. > I am one of the many 'bounced' users. The front page shows already very often what I want to know. Security notes, the current supported versions and news. Why should I read then things I am not interested in? But there is something missing. There is no 'entry' point for potential new users. > Among other things, marking actions on pages with GA labels will > differentiate many of these cases from the pathological and begins to > place 'our user goals' *first* as the primary definition of success. > > You cant manage or improve what you dont measure. I disagree here. A website is not a piece of engineering. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 6 03:38:22 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D809E23 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 03:38:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-pb0-x229.google.com (mail-pb0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70E95243C for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 03:38:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pb0-f41.google.com with SMTP id rp2so5691941pbb.28 for ; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 20:38:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=FFrcrDZq5YaEk2W1wdFFwUEqfFQ9SlKA8CF8RhlRjIA=; b=f4Fz27nC5gGwqqt2Jx28cEWhuet2e5EOsWwC1WZ7hFUTVgGceJuMpygHf+sWPC0q4R 9/vlxn3pdFvsk1a3JvXx+WhtM9OjGGBg7pfO8FiPTOAo3AWvFPPPz78pQTYO/MqMehco UEYrs/gG0YsN1HGBZc8jWsMd+seveoQ7wf5EI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=FFrcrDZq5YaEk2W1wdFFwUEqfFQ9SlKA8CF8RhlRjIA=; b=lryhfl3KY5l5TcCOsQP3MBrrvOXtrK0vMkdgrIMOU/CB6/dV/E6+oxxJ/qOKLhSgI8 otMFw+ekpYzP+KTjJuTlhFyZhZ56WV0J+2JdUd24/yKuxNPwnSTAEBY3jslpVUPbGD1v By9F7/2AmKcDT5VnXp96pCqbR3HU88meU2K6GC6iinltnEgk8x4jkgXEdOQwIgQWbtv5 m2fRNovjJO+fitjkA32zuXy4VDxqe3Szw7VIXa+/2jRgecpOSgYhYjkd5RtvgKhgPQo1 KBQNNrieujqh45YL2tRpz3L7diYkdbsuOVabBhloapVyYMhbBUjGdBaBSLnBYlkYqLYk vYVA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlf5v2Ouhw4oDEMGBTGPsOSJ9PuAPhtEe1RYqIIn4pL5CzemZ3ywvw69MNrujmJbuV6ylNz X-Received: by 10.68.229.2 with SMTP id sm2mr23125198pbc.68.1381030702141; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 20:38:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.70.6.3 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 20:37:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20131006102955.4191e4a4@X220.ovitrap.com> References: <201310031535.r93FZ6D1095088@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> <20131003153825.GB1581@oldfaithful.bebik.local> <5250BA2E.3030409@FreeBSD.org> <20131006102955.4191e4a4@X220.ovitrap.com> From: Eitan Adler Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 23:37:52 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors To: Erich Dollansky Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, koobs@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 03:38:22 -0000 On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: >> Among other things, marking actions on pages with GA labels will >> differentiate many of these cases from the pathological and begins to >> place 'our user goals' *first* as the primary definition of success. >> >> You cant manage or improve what you dont measure. > > I disagree here. A website is not a piece of engineering. Yes it is. Of a different type. Here is an introduction to the topic of "Website Engineering": http://www.nngroup.com/articles/usability-101-introduction-to-usability/ -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 6 04:01:34 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6FF9415; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 04:01:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com) Received: from alogt.com (alogt.com [69.36.191.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCC44253A; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 04:01:34 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alogt.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Mime-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=Sj05mrLKt6xGQZjp4qoFdRoeMkwlpV42/RscBvID23s=; b=SdXkenp93yM49xMEipGww6l0Tz5n0rTVra77iyrnqG6UKOAw2qyhhBY3Kk8PtTOHTabA0eS9yH7+VX0qglMnosk1Kax2fEzwLurGgdZdXZ1BdTwdLR+u0kiWU0CA+ckTOj4L3c6lyuonvveNNjS6eWrwG0zIMLTxa7/AuzKM4xQ=; Received: from [182.9.140.79] (port=12862 helo=X220.ovitrap.com) by sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net with esmtpsa (SSLv3:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VSfXB-003E1k-25; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 22:01:34 -0600 Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 12:01:17 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: Eitan Adler Subject: Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors Message-ID: <20131006120117.183b20ce@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: References: <201310031535.r93FZ6D1095088@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> <20131003153825.GB1581@oldfaithful.bebik.local> <5250BA2E.3030409@FreeBSD.org> <20131006102955.4191e4a4@X220.ovitrap.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.2 (GTK+ 2.24.19; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - alogt.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net: authenticated_id: erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, koobs@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 04:01:35 -0000 Hi, On Sat, 5 Oct 2013 23:37:52 -0400 Eitan Adler wrote: > On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Erich Dollansky > wrote: > >> Among other things, marking actions on pages with GA labels will > >> differentiate many of these cases from the pathological and begins > >> to place 'our user goals' *first* as the primary definition of > >> success. > >> > >> You cant manage or improve what you dont measure. > > > > I disagree here. A website is not a piece of engineering. > > Yes it is. Of a different type. this type is called 'design'. As an engineer I do the software behind an website but I do not dare to make the design. Ok, I tell the designer, when I think the design could be improved but I do not dare th change it myself. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 6 04:07:07 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F3F4498 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 04:07:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from koobs.freebsd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pb0-x22a.google.com (mail-pb0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63B632559 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 04:07:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pb0-f42.google.com with SMTP id un15so5741500pbc.29 for ; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 21:07:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aUt82aNA75AS/+iOI1mc0KyrV7lMl0qNahvwJv9vLpY=; b=RZXwVE0j3bzRgkksxQn+2pGskxoPK4JGjMhguhZtklNjWngK8G+yFtE69o/ILZP4wr QLZYE9IyIvAdY7mg246UdcmE13PLNsk8kJWba/ONPzmDXzO1RoBb0A/Aiy6JTkT5X8ut WfoldrMW9GEAN6Ccg1cTyEla5bKYbOlgoh7HRZSK9ApEh2GZK996g+9giPaes2CSGRY1 6gnKLQ5nKFhjwoDr/nCQie/iZ3VKxRvHQ6tdLJTVchuiX2w/twoi4r3/Mjj5V42/TLHh yMql4jJ+oMtQSUl1hEVHr7CFoQhDKi1yRVbUdO5cxR4YFMIhCaFYvX5IrkmFp5hECL/S RYwQ== X-Received: by 10.68.130.1 with SMTP id oa1mr23414090pbb.35.1381032426925; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 21:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.7] (ppp59-167-128-11.static.internode.on.net. [59.167.128.11]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id xs1sm29325843pac.7.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 05 Oct 2013 21:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5250E1DF.5060009@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 15:06:55 +1100 From: Kubilay Kocak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erich Dollansky , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors References: <201310031535.r93FZ6D1095088@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> <20131003153825.GB1581@oldfaithful.bebik.local> <5250BA2E.3030409@FreeBSD.org> <20131006102955.4191e4a4@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <20131006102955.4191e4a4@X220.ovitrap.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: koobs@FreeBSD.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 04:07:07 -0000 On 6/10/2013 1:29 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > On Sun, 06 Oct 2013 12:17:34 +1100 > Kubilay Kocak wrote: > >> On 4/10/2013 1:38 AM, Rodrigo OSORIO wrote: >>> Maybe the question is : "have they found what they are looking >>> for ?" >>> >> >> Thats a good question Rodrigo and right on point. >> >> Bounce rates, without also identifying *legitimate* (and/or desirable) >> exit points cant alone help us determine if a user has achieved their >> objective or not. >> > I am one of the many 'bounced' users. The front page shows already very > often what I want to know. Security notes, the current supported > versions and news. Why should I read then things I am not interested in? You shouldnt, though im intrigued as to who or what gave you the impression that you should? :) > But there is something missing. There is no 'entry' point for potential > new users. +1 on this point. Additionally, new users are but one dimension of one demographic of a diverse customer base. You want to see understand the forest *and* the trees. >> Among other things, marking actions on pages with GA labels will >> differentiate many of these cases from the pathological and begins to >> place 'our user goals' *first* as the primary definition of success. >> >> You cant manage or improve what you dont measure. > > I disagree here. A website is not a piece of engineering. If by engineering you mean not serving a purely technical endeavour, I can't agree more. Understanding your audience and their goals however, requires effort *and* intentional intrumentation (I use this term intentionally by technical analogy), whether that takes the form of surveys, feedback forms, social engagement, PR's, forums or otherwise. User interaction with our biggest "front-of-house" is just one more example, and where we can make the biggest impact. Koobs From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 6 04:31:47 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E11318DC; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 04:31:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com) Received: from alogt.com (alogt.com [69.36.191.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADBEB2632; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 04:31:46 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alogt.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Mime-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=ys5qJC7WzKZzK8vp7yt7MnjFNZZkwnU2lCcIAiMRB2c=; b=Ng5AW379gLzZVGQ3oQF5ZGRXDGyIkTRyr7/rMro/I3igq9zRBO7UWYGutGyFGjIz/uPfFgcevy1LRvlsD9Fw3pP0VQneFFAyiJdZJ5Q870uNtVV6QqpgUx6mB5iuKYsCns5XYptyTQSyx7q++KZT7eTMFc83ze2Orr1+zUJYTLQ=; Received: from [182.9.140.79] (port=35888 helo=X220.ovitrap.com) by sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net with esmtpsa (SSLv3:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VSg0O-003NEJ-Vc; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 22:31:46 -0600 Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 12:31:38 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: koobs@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors Message-ID: <20131006123138.126fea19@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <5250E1DF.5060009@FreeBSD.org> References: <201310031535.r93FZ6D1095088@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> <20131003153825.GB1581@oldfaithful.bebik.local> <5250BA2E.3030409@FreeBSD.org> <20131006102955.4191e4a4@X220.ovitrap.com> <5250E1DF.5060009@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.2 (GTK+ 2.24.19; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - alogt.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net: authenticated_id: erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 04:31:47 -0000 Hi, On Sun, 06 Oct 2013 15:06:55 +1100 Kubilay Kocak wrote: > On 6/10/2013 1:29 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > > On Sun, 06 Oct 2013 12:17:34 +1100 > > Kubilay Kocak wrote: > > > >> On 4/10/2013 1:38 AM, Rodrigo OSORIO wrote: > >>> Maybe the question is : "have they found what they are looking > >>> for ?" > >>> > >> > >> Thats a good question Rodrigo and right on point. > >> > >> Bounce rates, without also identifying *legitimate* (and/or > >> desirable) exit points cant alone help us determine if a user has > >> achieved their objective or not. > >> > > I am one of the many 'bounced' users. The front page shows already > > very often what I want to know. Security notes, the current > > supported versions and news. Why should I read then things I am not > > interested in? > > You shouldnt, though im intrigued as to who or what gave you the > impression that you should? :) the content of the first e-mail in this threat. It gives the impression that the site is bad because some 50% 'bounce'. > > > But there is something missing. There is no 'entry' point for > > potential new users. > > +1 on this point. Additionally, new users are but one dimension of one > demographic of a diverse customer base. You want to see understand the > forest *and* the trees. > > >> Among other things, marking actions on pages with GA labels will > >> differentiate many of these cases from the pathological and begins > >> to place 'our user goals' *first* as the primary definition of > >> success. > >> > >> You cant manage or improve what you dont measure. > > > > I disagree here. A website is not a piece of engineering. > > If by engineering you mean not serving a purely technical endeavour, I > can't agree more. I consider the front ends always as design and would never allow an engineer to do one. Let the engineers build the cars but let designers design them. Would you like to drive a car like the Tin Lizzy? > Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 6 04:34:20 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFAF593A for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 04:34:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-pd0-x235.google.com (mail-pd0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3B922645 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 04:34:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pd0-f181.google.com with SMTP id g10so5673948pdj.26 for ; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 21:34:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=ZKdxraA18ing/RO3AzTYVm/8rXkwtESeIhqChwhtnHo=; b=NidTFy3+tqvGGAcJ9pVh/pmN7Tq1StkIqUM9q3df4dchX6N5dTw+TiuGqA16dldlQ6 tdGEtJILDvWdiWSC2iWrTvqLGkiO6mCjAcB5hMgLSUPcbPX2IlKql+fjctmdSDQcShYm 728591LdQFQzQODmz1RgYU+gR12LfKQBqV9tM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=ZKdxraA18ing/RO3AzTYVm/8rXkwtESeIhqChwhtnHo=; b=ie3cb12i86m8YAJhuxyeJqGp+UEWAM+EOGewr3R9i+r/aCw51XAGl8uuG8x72JeAMO rf2GzyQRQVNPMMisPN7Gf9lH3KWoxK1Az6iVM7ZCjzHx7LdkCYl9qpY/qNrvjnhpo6Ke VDKiYNi2rUNLWij2zOUVKCBNyxt4bOlXMd1pxQyh1Idw8+DzwAtECN/uU+Bx69c99pOn gFKu6cFSUzcjid/zwRhs+n5HDD4laTqWp0RYdPnUhMsdDYw6KqgSReHOGB4SkiUSv1zU o74Hj2TvJvMg8xXOl2lDcUh6JIjwLa+ITmoCg5NeI/puUvsiXKlziHPSyLRX88poKAyG IMzw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlNUfsLRzv8Qsr120EJAt5LA5cwdQKNhP2Q9z4e3JaOxMfU3xCkLkKITuxtkmajB4TsZ8Q5 X-Received: by 10.68.172.3 with SMTP id ay3mr23506424pbc.5.1381034060291; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 21:34:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.70.6.3 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 21:33:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20131006123138.126fea19@X220.ovitrap.com> References: <201310031535.r93FZ6D1095088@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> <20131003153825.GB1581@oldfaithful.bebik.local> <5250BA2E.3030409@FreeBSD.org> <20131006102955.4191e4a4@X220.ovitrap.com> <5250E1DF.5060009@FreeBSD.org> <20131006123138.126fea19@X220.ovitrap.com> From: Eitan Adler Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 00:33:50 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors To: Erich Dollansky Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, koobs@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 04:34:20 -0000 On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 12:31 AM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > the content of the first e-mail in this threat. It gives the impression > that the site is bad because some 50% 'bounce'. Mea Culpa. My entire email was meant to be informative and provoke questions - not to say that any one stat was good or bad. I did not mean to imply that bounce = bad. > I consider the front ends always as design and would never allow an > engineer to do one. Let the engineers build the cars but let designers > design them. Would you like to drive a car like the Tin Lizzy? Design needs to be driven by data. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 6 06:55:24 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F7EC29 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 06:55:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp6.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:3cd3:cd67:fafa:3d78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDDD12A95 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 06:55:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from seedling.black-earth.co.uk (seedling.black-earth.co.uk [81.2.117.99]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id r966tI3f074625 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 07:55:19 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.8.3 smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk r966tI3f074625 Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/r966tI3f074625; dkim=none reason="no signature"; dkim-adsp=none (unprotected policy) Message-ID: <5251094E.2030800@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 07:55:10 +0100 From: Matthew Seaman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors References: <201310031535.r93FZ6D1095088@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> <20131003153825.GB1581@oldfaithful.bebik.local> <5250BA2E.3030409@FreeBSD.org> <20131006102955.4191e4a4@X220.ovitrap.com> <20131006120117.183b20ce@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <20131006120117.183b20ce@X220.ovitrap.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="I5s9Vb0KjDLxLS4SFfmo5pWaRXxHU1Of7" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.8 at lucid-nonsense.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on lucid-nonsense.infracaninophile.co.uk X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 06:55:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --I5s9Vb0KjDLxLS4SFfmo5pWaRXxHU1Of7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/10/2013 05:01, Erich Dollansky wrote: > this type is called 'design'. As an engineer I do the software behind > an website but I do not dare to make the design. Ok, I tell the > designer, when I think the design could be improved but I do not dare > th change it myself. The trick is to realise that site design is simply another form of engineering, albeint with rather different contexts and constraints than writing software. Writing a website so that the users can interact with it readily, find and understand what they wat, avoid frustration and have a pleasant overall experience is conceptually much the same sort of thing as writing a website so it doesn't hog server resources or continually fail ungracefully or have a badly indexed sub-optimal database schema. Basically you want it to do it's job efficiently and smoothly, whether 'it' is the back-end server code, or the on-screen presentation. Granted, optimizing sites for human interaction is a whole different skill set, but it's not some holy task that only some annointed designer with the mandate of heaven can undertake. Cheers, Matthew --=20 Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey --I5s9Vb0KjDLxLS4SFfmo5pWaRXxHU1Of7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.16 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iKYEARECAGYFAlJRCVZfFIAAAAAALgAoaXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3Bl bnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldEI1NTUyQTk2Mjc0RUQyNDg1NzM0MEVCNEYw QzhFNEU3NjBBRTkwOEMACgkQ8Mjk52CukIylJQCfV0QUryZWaR8TGmL8L9y6I9Vk yoAAnjrLGK4Lz6xY2xfzLzoPNzojjbOZ =/Xcn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --I5s9Vb0KjDLxLS4SFfmo5pWaRXxHU1Of7-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 6 07:45:25 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 091AB841; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 07:45:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com) Received: from alogt.com (alogt.com [69.36.191.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D10B62CBF; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 07:45:24 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alogt.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Mime-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=bH9E1Cru/ypbGSn2zoncNRXI4npUMUkmfltasRjMkig=; b=YaECJ5O6kd+3+3wzWt0ukbFVwZIci5B/XCCAbRAHG+CZwKazfUEpiDbNLp4uWOPSfJ70xl65QSoj3fAMraOYei71VVTy1avaqHK2TWrVsKlK1wMqu2/UphjS7NEYdDTEgVEVVqbF8/VrGoknl72Ru09kA56vMnvXe5Th2X825pE=; Received: from [182.9.140.79] (port=15655 helo=X220.ovitrap.com) by sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net with esmtpsa (SSLv3:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VSj1m-004JJv-Q6; Sun, 06 Oct 2013 01:45:23 -0600 Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 15:45:15 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: Matthew Seaman Subject: Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors Message-ID: <20131006154515.01c14ded@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <5251094E.2030800@FreeBSD.org> References: <201310031535.r93FZ6D1095088@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> <20131003153825.GB1581@oldfaithful.bebik.local> <5250BA2E.3030409@FreeBSD.org> <20131006102955.4191e4a4@X220.ovitrap.com> <20131006120117.183b20ce@X220.ovitrap.com> <5251094E.2030800@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.2 (GTK+ 2.24.19; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - alogt.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net: authenticated_id: erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 07:45:25 -0000 Hi, On Sun, 06 Oct 2013 07:55:10 +0100 Matthew Seaman wrote: > On 06/10/2013 05:01, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > this type is called 'design'. As an engineer I do the software > > behind an website but I do not dare to make the design. Ok, I tell > > the designer, when I think the design could be improved but I do > > not dare th change it myself. > > The trick is to realise that site design is simply another form of > engineering, albeint with rather different contexts and constraints > than writing software. > > Writing a website so that the users can interact with it readily, find > and understand what they wat, avoid frustration and have a pleasant > overall experience is conceptually much the same sort of thing as > writing a website so it doesn't hog server resources or continually > fail ungracefully or have a badly indexed sub-optimal database schema. > Basically you want it to do it's job efficiently and smoothly, whether > 'it' is the back-end server code, or the on-screen presentation. > > Granted, optimizing sites for human interaction is a whole different > skill set, but it's not some holy task that only some annointed > designer with the mandate of heaven can undertake. yes, it is not rocket science but - as you said - a different skill set. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 6 09:06:03 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2303A327; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 09:06:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ie0-x233.google.com (mail-ie0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC70B2F8E; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 09:06:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ie0-f179.google.com with SMTP id e14so13438512iej.10 for ; Sun, 06 Oct 2013 02:06:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=E6b+sKD98tUJLacYWNN6wm+4klaFyQtWmWwdf/KekN4=; b=zAFdYnf35OwTOYD2G9L868pfJwgOcwFh+UJL2SIn5v1UNWsruq4L7XLSNz0ct9PE7L nY3WPfq8qZFO0gcxqp5hVmBksSB9vHLtAQQxMCQunxDaGRfS5KGCiqoo7vsXFylz5oCV WYbH0Hx7jHPAVdftJlYsCdl9SLZ0DoNtSM0Zbz2vHf3mlTkDYQHcLcfz2exqmIrHmZ4v J/Yxp/ic49STxWX0aaQAic4kSXEaGvzAFsI3bo4bcp5tSL1RBonBtmXE3C/nq2g7LdoL Uj3qQyKmMaAyP0i94A3SdoNSjjegLU19HMzlaVmYJNv9mJoHI1L9f6JHDtAxqpVgZoH/ m6UA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.180.200 with SMTP id pf8mr8561icc.50.1381050362199; Sun, 06 Oct 2013 02:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.9.97 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 02:06:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20131006154515.01c14ded@X220.ovitrap.com> References: <201310031535.r93FZ6D1095088@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> <20131003153825.GB1581@oldfaithful.bebik.local> <5250BA2E.3030409@FreeBSD.org> <20131006102955.4191e4a4@X220.ovitrap.com> <20131006120117.183b20ce@X220.ovitrap.com> <5251094E.2030800@FreeBSD.org> <20131006154515.01c14ded@X220.ovitrap.com> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 05:06:02 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk To: Erich Dollansky Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.14 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Matthew Seaman X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 09:06:03 -0000 On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:45 AM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > On Sun, 06 Oct 2013 07:55:10 +0100 > Matthew Seaman wrote: > > > On 06/10/2013 05:01, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > this type is called 'design'. As an engineer I do the software > > > behind an website but I do not dare to make the design. Ok, I tell > > > the designer, when I think the design could be improved but I do > > > not dare th change it myself. > > > > The trick is to realise that site design is simply another form of > > engineering, albeint with rather different contexts and constraints > > than writing software. > > > > Writing a website so that the users can interact with it readily, find > > and understand what they wat, avoid frustration and have a pleasant > > overall experience is conceptually much the same sort of thing as > > writing a website so it doesn't hog server resources or continually > > fail ungracefully or have a badly indexed sub-optimal database schema. > > Basically you want it to do it's job efficiently and smoothly, whether > > 'it' is the back-end server code, or the on-screen presentation. > > > > Granted, optimizing sites for human interaction is a whole different > > skill set, but it's not some holy task that only some annointed > > designer with the mandate of heaven can undertake. > > yes, it is not rocket science but - as you said - a different skill set. > > Erich > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering The first sentence : *Software engineering* (*SE*) is the application of a systematic, disciplined, quantifiable approach to the design, development, operation, and maintenance of software , and the study of these approaches; that is, the application of engineeringto software. Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 6 11:01:04 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6374EE07; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 11:01:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com) Received: from alogt.com (alogt.com [69.36.191.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22D552468; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 11:01:03 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alogt.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Mime-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=NFenFxJJ+sl5jTBE2rjRN9JkiFlmCEZX7Z8Z6eZloac=; b=rOlZpAU8b5fxKZKbSGPeL2ELFHvudld+4ohFzYVoQf6qL4ZjM8/qKOznC/OonLSELA0St84ZAKT6m+3Wd7g4d1v0Z8RHQppZCJFWrw1XdLh8sGxZMwAzz8e0xemLkaRiIh2Uf1kEwdTdW58aGa8c+jlD1G7xI7effIbg9WSSS+o=; Received: from [182.9.140.79] (port=26829 helo=X220.ovitrap.com) by sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net with esmtpsa (SSLv3:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VSm57-0010af-D4; Sun, 06 Oct 2013 05:01:03 -0600 Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 19:00:53 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk Subject: Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors Message-ID: <20131006190053.5757ef0a@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: References: <201310031535.r93FZ6D1095088@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> <20131003153825.GB1581@oldfaithful.bebik.local> <5250BA2E.3030409@FreeBSD.org> <20131006102955.4191e4a4@X220.ovitrap.com> <20131006120117.183b20ce@X220.ovitrap.com> <5251094E.2030800@FreeBSD.org> <20131006154515.01c14ded@X220.ovitrap.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.2 (GTK+ 2.24.19; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - alogt.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: sl-508-2.slc.westdc.net: authenticated_id: erichsfreebsdlist@alogt.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Matthew Seaman X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 11:01:04 -0000 Hi, On Sun, 6 Oct 2013 05:06:02 -0400 Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote: > On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:45 AM, Erich Dollansky > > wrote: > > > On Sun, 06 Oct 2013 07:55:10 +0100 > > Matthew Seaman wrote: > > > > > On 06/10/2013 05:01, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > > this type is called 'design'. As an engineer I do the software > > > > behind an website but I do not dare to make the design. Ok, I > > > > tell the designer, when I think the design could be improved > > > > but I do not dare th change it myself. > > > > > > The trick is to realise that site design is simply another form of > > > engineering, albeint with rather different contexts and > > > constraints than writing software. > > > > > > Writing a website so that the users can interact with it readily, > > > find and understand what they wat, avoid frustration and have a > > > pleasant overall experience is conceptually much the same sort of > > > thing as writing a website so it doesn't hog server resources or > > > continually fail ungracefully or have a badly indexed sub-optimal > > > database schema. Basically you want it to do it's job efficiently > > > and smoothly, whether 'it' is the back-end server code, or the > > > on-screen presentation. > > > > > > Granted, optimizing sites for human interaction is a whole > > > different skill set, but it's not some holy task that only some > > > annointed designer with the mandate of heaven can undertake. > > > > yes, it is not rocket science but - as you said - a different skill > > set. > > > > Erich > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering > > The first sentence : > > *Software engineering* (*SE*) is the application of a systematic, this is the mistake made here. We - at least me - talk about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_design Nobody mentioned the software behind. Only the search function is mentioned very often as being behind current standards. Erich > disciplined, quantifiable approach to the design, development, > operation, and maintenance of software > , and the study of these > approaches; that is, the application of > engineeringto > software. > > > Thank you very much . > > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 6 12:06:41 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDAF5660; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 12:06:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ie0-x22e.google.com (mail-ie0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FFAC26D9; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 12:06:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ie0-f174.google.com with SMTP id u16so13237156iet.33 for ; Sun, 06 Oct 2013 05:06:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=fgNNzHgfUBC5l7xoJH0drrLmadEeh5nUtR0e5o5BsVs=; b=Wg9xPlhoSHD70/baXDgIiy1djv96sWPMooJj84gMYU1jNivjFQokcRTkrSmeUdqbQO vnsbRf6oFzRQ1lwWb0k32rFi68uE5iw9tnoH6GwWjgaQ/JCX6F6vEXIW6+MgMX1NAYGO Gut4Gk5r8zp/ugHOQ/TBgyJSSaiunIFyM3ni24cS31YUmVqjQDn4lrDCb8He++0KO2e9 tpivYSfTDAxwRl99BOOioqZ8OQ2hdmfmoMLbP06RE+Ng4weV9ua5GI2yRc5N8pF+pSKS 8XPc4Oygwz2B1UsMaf4SfvqrGC+f+ltbtUhRPaEgxv2Fur0ZKZffGV974xSqUIFJ9Vho KwGw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.77.212 with SMTP id zj20mr10911221icb.5.1381061200728; Sun, 06 Oct 2013 05:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.9.97 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 05:06:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20131006190053.5757ef0a@X220.ovitrap.com> References: <201310031535.r93FZ6D1095088@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> <20131003153825.GB1581@oldfaithful.bebik.local> <5250BA2E.3030409@FreeBSD.org> <20131006102955.4191e4a4@X220.ovitrap.com> <20131006120117.183b20ce@X220.ovitrap.com> <5251094E.2030800@FreeBSD.org> <20131006154515.01c14ded@X220.ovitrap.com> <20131006190053.5757ef0a@X220.ovitrap.com> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 08:06:40 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: About FreeBSD.org visitors From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk To: Erich Dollansky Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.14 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Matthew Seaman X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 12:06:41 -0000 On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > On Sun, 6 Oct 2013 05:06:02 -0400 > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote: > > > On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:45 AM, Erich Dollansky > > > > wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 06 Oct 2013 07:55:10 +0100 > > > Matthew Seaman wrote: > > > > > > > On 06/10/2013 05:01, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > > > this type is called 'design'. As an engineer I do the software > > > > > behind an website but I do not dare to make the design. Ok, I > > > > > tell the designer, when I think the design could be improved > > > > > but I do not dare th change it myself. > > > > > > > > The trick is to realise that site design is simply another form of > > > > engineering, albeint with rather different contexts and > > > > constraints than writing software. > > > > > > > > Writing a website so that the users can interact with it readily, > > > > find and understand what they wat, avoid frustration and have a > > > > pleasant overall experience is conceptually much the same sort of > > > > thing as writing a website so it doesn't hog server resources or > > > > continually fail ungracefully or have a badly indexed sub-optimal > > > > database schema. Basically you want it to do it's job efficiently > > > > and smoothly, whether 'it' is the back-end server code, or the > > > > on-screen presentation. > > > > > > > > Granted, optimizing sites for human interaction is a whole > > > > different skill set, but it's not some holy task that only some > > > > annointed designer with the mandate of heaven can undertake. > > > > > > yes, it is not rocket science but - as you said - a different skill > > > set. > > > > > > Erich > > > > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering > > > > The first sentence : > > > > *Software engineering* (*SE*) is the application of a systematic, > > this is the mistake made here. We - at least me - talk about this: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_design > > Nobody mentioned the software behind. Only the search function is > mentioned very often as being behind current standards. > > Erich > > > disciplined, quantifiable approach to the design, development, > > operation, and maintenance of software > > , and the study of these > > approaches; that is, the application of > > engineeringto > > software.< > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering#cite_note-BoDu04-1> > > > > > > Thank you very much . > > > > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk > > I think , actual problem for FreeBSD Documentation ( including web pages ) is : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface All of the other aspects are related to this subject . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 7 14:57:36 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13A53370; Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:57:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vmiller@verisign.com) Received: from exprod6og125.obsmtp.com (exprod6og125.obsmtp.com [64.18.1.218]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 618E5291A; Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:57:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from osprey.verisign.com ([216.168.239.75]) (using TLSv1) by exprod6ob125.postini.com ([64.18.5.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUlLL2GqDM3uRKmPBnmT1os0uL53K0BZv@postini.com; Mon, 07 Oct 2013 07:57:35 PDT Received: from BRN1WNEXCHM01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com (brn1wnexchm01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com [10.173.152.255]) by osprey.verisign.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id r97EvOCU032529 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 7 Oct 2013 10:57:27 -0400 Received: from BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) by BRN1WNEXCHM01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Mon, 7 Oct 2013 10:57:23 -0400 From: "Miller, Vincent (Rick)" To: FreeBSD , "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-announce@freebsd.org" Subject: OpenBSD at vBSDcon October 25 - 27, 2013 in Herndon, VA Thread-Topic: OpenBSD at vBSDcon October 25 - 27, 2013 in Herndon, VA Thread-Index: AQHOw22H3UxJY4Ov2UqSBhzCbEB43w== Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:57:23 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.7.130812 x-originating-ip: [10.173.152.4] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.14 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 14:57:36 -0000 For only USD$75 you can register for vBSDcon hosted by Verisign on October = 25 =96 27, 2013 in Herndon, VA. That is less than 3 weeks away! If you ha= ve not registered yet, it is definitely recommended as vBSDcon will feature= a series of roundtable discussions, educational sessions, best practice co= nversations, and exclusive networking opportunities. Registrations for vBS= Dcon will be open until October 23, 2013 at http://www.vbsdcon.com/. vBSDcon will feature developers, Henning Brauer and Reyk Floeter, from the = OpenBSD project. Henning and Reyk will be tag teaming a presentation on pa= cket inspection with pf in OpenBSD. pf was introduced in 2001 as an altern= ative to ipf. Over the years, pf has become a mature, secure, and powerful,= yet easy to use high performance packet filter. In this presentation, Henn= ing Brauer will describe some of the features of pf and Reyk Floeter will d= escribe utilizing relayd in conjunction with pf. You can expect to hear abo= ut using hooks for transparent proxies, deep packet inspection, socket spli= cing, NATs, load balancing and more. Read more about our speakers and their topics, the conference agenda, other= activities, and registrations at http://www.vbsdcon.com/. This is an even= t you will not want to miss. Register now before it's too late! Follow @VERISIGN and @hostileaddmin on Twitter for more news and updates on= #vBSDcon -- Vincent (Rick) Miller Systems Engineer vmiller@verisign.com t: 703-948-4395 m: 703-581-3068 12061 Bluemont Way, Reston, VA 20190 http://www.vbsdcon.com http://www.verisigninc.com =93This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of= the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain informa= tion that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt f= rom disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work = product. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified tha= t any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is= strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, notify se= nder immediately and delete this message immediately.=94 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 9 18:58:51 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E1081E for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 18:58:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mailling@symaton.com.tw) Received: from plus.symaton.com.tw (mail.symaton.com.tw [60.251.19.62]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3BF32D5B for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 18:58:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: (from root@localhost) by plus.symaton.com.tw (8.13.7/8.12.7) id r99Iwp6U019618 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 02:58:51 +0800 Received: (from root@localhost) by plus.symaton.com.tw (8.13.7/8.12.7) id r99Il6ZH005863 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 02:47:06 +0800 Received: from [116.202.191.197] (authenticated bits=0) by plus.symaton.com.tw (8.13.7/8.12.8) with ESMTP id r99IkdFB032639 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 02:47:05 +0800 Message-Id: <201310091847.r99IkdFB032639@plus.symaton.com.tw> MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Zimbra update To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Zimbra Collaboration Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 11:46:57 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: Mail message body X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.14 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 18:58:51 -0000 You'll need to update the settings on your mobile or tablet to continue to = receive your email - visit the email upgrade page to find out how.