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Subject: Collect shoes to raise funds for your organization
From: "Gretchen Parker" <gretchen@shoes4funds.co>
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___________________________________
Funds2Orgs (http://e2.ma/click/pv1ee/lcwanz/18fkab) is a social enterprise =
that offers a proven and effective fundraising strategy. We have helped non=
profit organizations, churches, schools, and civic groups across the countr=
y meet their fundraising goals and exceed expectations.
=20
Through our shoe drive fundraisers, your organization will be able to engag=
e the community, support micro-enterprises in developing countries, and mee=
t your organizations goals.
=20
It is easy to get started, simply click through to our website (http://e2.m=
a/click/pv1ee/lcwanz/h1gkab) and sign-up. We'll send you materials to help =
you collect shoes - from marketing to collection bags - and when you meet y=
our goals, contact us and we'll come pick-up the shoes! Then all you have t=
o do is get ready for your check!
=20
If you need any additional information about Funds2Orgs or would like me to=
connect you with a Funds2Orgs Fundraising Coach, please reply to this emai=
l.
YOU MATTER!
Gretchen Parker
Special Projects
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 11 15:19:39 2014
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 12 14:33:24 2014
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Subject: Funds2Orgs is your fundraising solution
From: "Gretchen Parker" <gretchen@shoes4funds.co>
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___________________________________
Funds2Orgs (http://t.e2ma.net/click/lck2d/hhdlyn/xd5c9) is a social enterpr=
ise that offers a proven and effective fundraising strategies for nonprofit=
organizations, churches, schools, and civic groups. We=E2=80=99ve helped h=
undreds of organizations across the country meet their fundraising goals.
=20
Through our shoe drive fundraisers, your organization will be able to engag=
e the community, support micro-enterprises in developing countries, and mee=
t your goals.
=20
It is easy to get started, simply click through to our website (http://t.e2=
ma.net/click/lck2d/hhdlyn/d65c9) and sign-up. We'll send you all the materi=
als to get you started with your shoe drive, from marketing to collection b=
ags. When your drive is complete, contact us and we'll come pick-up the bag=
s of gently, worn used shoes! Then all you have to do is get ready for your=
check!
=20
If you need any additional information about Funds2Orgs or would like me to=
connect you with a Funds2Orgs Fundraising Coach, please reply to this emai=
l.
YOU MATTER!
Gretchen Parker
Special Projects
___________________________________
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 14 13:40:18 2014
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To: "freebsd-advocacy" <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>
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=20
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From: Kim Lesmer <knl@bitflop.com>
To: freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org
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Subject: advocacy/188031: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
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>Number: 188031
>Category: advocacy
>Synopsis: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
>Confidential: no
>Severity: non-critical
>Priority: low
>Responsible: freebsd-advocacy
>State: open
>Quarter:
>Keywords:
>Date-Required:
>Class: doc-bug
>Submitter-Id: current-users
>Arrival-Date: Fri Mar 28 13:20:00 UTC 2014
>Closed-Date:
>Last-Modified:
>Originator: Kim Lesmer
>Release: 10
>Organization:
>Environment:
>Description:
On the FAQ here: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/faq/introduction.html
It says, when explaining the different releases:
"Briefly, -STABLE is aimed at the ISP, corporate user, or any user who wants stability and a minimal number of changes compared to the new (and possibly unstable) features of the latest -CURRENT snapshot."
This is highly contradictory to the information provided several places in the Hanbook.
For example:
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/current-stable.html
"This is still a development branch and, at any given time, the sources for FreeBSD-STABLE may or may not be suitable for general use. It is simply another engineering development track, not a resource for end-users."
>How-To-Repeat:
>Fix:
I think having a FAQ section outside of the Handbook is a problem. It would be better, easier to keep track of things, if the FAQ is moved to the Handbook and then the above information corrected.
>Release-Note:
>Audit-Trail:
>Unformatted:
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 28 13:40:01 2014
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To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org
Cc:
From: Andrew Moseman <Andrew.Moseman@pomeroy.com>
Subject: RE: advocacy/188031: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
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The following reply was made to PR advocacy/188031; it has been noted by GNATS.
From: Andrew Moseman <Andrew.Moseman@pomeroy.com>
To: Kim Lesmer <knl@bitflop.com>, "freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org"
<freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org>
Cc:
Subject: RE: advocacy/188031: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:32:55 +0000
Good catch Kim,
Another suggestion would be to link the FAQ to the hand book or vice versa =
and manage only one definition.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@fre=
ebsd.org] On Behalf Of Kim Lesmer
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 9:11 AM
To: freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org
Subject: advocacy/188031: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
>Number: 188031
>Category: advocacy
>Synopsis: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
>Confidential: no
>Severity: non-critical
>Priority: low
>Responsible: freebsd-advocacy
>State: open
>Quarter: =20
>Keywords: =20
>Date-Required:
>Class: doc-bug
>Submitter-Id: current-users
>Arrival-Date: Fri Mar 28 13:20:00 UTC 2014
>Closed-Date:
>Last-Modified:
>Originator: Kim Lesmer
>Release: 10
>Organization:
>Environment:
>Description:
On the FAQ here: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/faq/introduction.html
It says, when explaining the different releases:
"Briefly, -STABLE is aimed at the ISP, corporate user, or any user who want=
s stability and a minimal number of changes compared to the new (and possib=
ly unstable) features of the latest -CURRENT snapshot."
This is highly contradictory to the information provided several places in =
the Hanbook.
For example:
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/current-stable.html
"This is still a development branch and, at any given time, the sources for=
FreeBSD-STABLE may or may not be suitable for general use. It is simply an=
other engineering development track, not a resource for end-users."
>How-To-Repeat:
>Fix:
I think having a FAQ section outside of the Handbook is a problem. It would=
be better, easier to keep track of things, if the FAQ is moved to the Hand=
book and then the above information corrected.
>Release-Note:
>Audit-Trail:
>Unformatted:
_______________________________________________
freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/=
listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
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From: Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:05:11 -0700
Message-ID: <CAF6rxgn9znVpTh8ocva2ZyMAWqsvf+AdS_PcN6ZtMC04dYi6Yg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: advocacy/188031: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
To: Andrew Moseman <Andrew.Moseman@pomeroy.com>,
bug-followup <bug-followup@freebsd.org>
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FWIW the handbook is correct: -stable is a development branch.
--
Eitan Adler
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 28 15:10:01 2014
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From: Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com>
Subject: Re: advocacy/188031: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
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The following reply was made to PR advocacy/188031; it has been noted by GNATS.
From: Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com>
To: Andrew Moseman <Andrew.Moseman@pomeroy.com>, bug-followup <bug-followup@freebsd.org>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: advocacy/188031: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:05:11 -0700
FWIW the handbook is correct: -stable is a development branch.
--
Eitan Adler
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Note: to view an individual PR, use:
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number).
The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users.
These represent problem reports covering all versions including
experimental development code and obsolete releases.
S Tracker Resp. Description
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
1 problem total.
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 05:47:17 2014
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From: Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:46:45 -0700
Message-ID: <CAF6rxgkeBozvfV-L0+rFZ6fWRn0=Gi3BNq1kPL=-HTq0TD6MkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Leaving the Desktop Market
To: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
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Hi all,
Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User"
and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can
be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a
desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD
can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default
and often doesn't work as well as we would expect.
The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past:
Battery life sucks: it=E2=80=99s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Wind=
ows
can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it
two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it=E2=80=99s tha=
t
we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS
can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run
for 16?
Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically
change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do
that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be
staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get
sound streaming to other machines working if you tried.
FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't
released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on
FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with
the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"?
In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera
only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason
for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape
Linux anyways.
That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux
desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for
server or embedded use.
Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the
Linux world?
Eitan Adler
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 06:39:29 2014
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To: Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com>, hackers@freebsd.org,
current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
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On 4/1/14, 1:46 PM, Eitan Adler wrote:
> Hi all
Hey it's not an apr 1 joke if it's true..
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>
>
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 06:44:46 2014
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To: Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com>
Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
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On 4/1/2014 1:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User"
> and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can
> be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a
> desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD
> can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default
> and often doesn't work as well as we would expect.
>
> The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past:
>
> Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows
> can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it
> two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that
> we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS
> can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run
> for 16?
>
> Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically
> change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do
> that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be
> staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get
> sound streaming to other machines working if you tried.
>
> FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't
> released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on
> FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with
> the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"?
>
> In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera
> only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason
> for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape
> Linux anyways.
>
> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux
> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for
> server or embedded use.
>
> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the
> Linux world?
I don't know much about BSD on the desktop, but it's somewhere I'd like to go eventually. This comment caught me off, however. The fact that there are thousands of flavors of Linux vs one flavor of a BSD desktop is sort of irrelivant--it could be applied, by that same method to BSD as a server. there are hundreds of Linux distributions that can be used as a server, so by your logic, "how do hundreds of Linux servers stand up to 3 flavors of BSD?"
I switched to BSD for a few reasons:
1) The documentation is amazing. As with any project, it can be improved as was mentioned in the most recent BSDNow, but the only other close call I can see is maybe Archlinux, and I don't want that on a server.
2) The ports and PKGNG system is beyond amazing.
3) The organization is more amazing. Everything is incredibly intuitive. I love the customization, flexability and organization of BSD.
4) I didn't care until rather recently, but anything that lets me rely less and less on GNU and the GPL is a bonus.
Given this, I commend everyone who has put hundreds of hours of work into making BSD a desktop system. Rather than suggest that BSD stays merely a server OS, why not pose these issues as problems or milestones. Perhaps sound has some drawbacks, but when the day arrives when it is up to par, I can almost guarantee if the BSD ideals remain the same that it'll be so much easier and cleaner to use than pulse/alsa, etc.
Eitan Adler
_______________________________________________
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 07:11:34 2014
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>
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To: Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com>
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On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com> wrote:
> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux
> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for
> server or embedded use.
>=20
> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the
> Linux world?
The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if =
it=92s just an elaborate April Fool=92s joke, but then the notion of =
*BSD (or Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another =
long-running April fool=92s joke, so I=92m willing to postulate that two =
April Fools jokes would simply cancel each other out and make this =
posting a serious one again. :-)
I=92ll choose to be serious and say what I=92m about to say in spite of =
the fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like =
the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, =
the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu.
There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There =
never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose =93the=
power to serve=94 as FreeBSD=92s first marketing slogan? It makes a =
fine server OS and it=92s easy to defend its role in the server room. =
It=92s also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which =
is another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the =
recent developments there.
A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be =93BSD on the desktop=94 =
(and while they share some common technologies, it=92s increasingly a =
stretch to say that), it=92s just never going to happen for (at least) =
the following reasons:
1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete =
top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just =
trying to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You =
need to optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power =
efficiency (which actually involves a fair amount of micro architecture =
knowledge), you need a kernel scheduler that is power management aware, =
you need a process management system that runs as few things as possible =
and knows how to schedule things during package wake-up intervals, you =
need timers to be coalesced at the level where applications consume =
them, the list just goes on and on. It=92s a lot of engineering work, =
and to drive that work you also need a lot of telemetry data and people =
with big sticks running around hitting people who write =
power-inefficient code. FreeBSD has neither.
2. Multimedia. A real end-user=92s desktop is basically one big UI for =
watching things, listening to things, and running apps. A decent audio =
/ video subsystem is just one part of the picture, and one that has =
always been really weak - entire engineering teams can spend years =
working on codecs, performance optimizations, low and guaranteed latency =
support for audio I/O, etc. What=92s worse, the bar is only being =
raised. You want to be part of the next wave of folks who can author =
and edit content for the new 4K video standard? Not on FreeBSD or =
Linux, you=92re not.
3. Applications. A desktop without real and useful applications is not =
a desktop, it=92s just an empty display surface. Sure, there are users =
out there who are happy with just a mail client, a web browser and maybe =
a calendaring app, but those users are also arguably even better =
candidates for Chrome or other simplified environments where all of that =
simply happens in a fancy web browser and you get things like =93software =
updates=94 and cloud integration essentially for free since it=92s all =
just one cohesive picture there. The ability to solve those user=92s =
needs very simply makes them ripe targets for the web application =
delivery platforms.
For the other folks who want to do fancier stuff like mix audio, edit =
videos or even just play mainstream 3D games that were actually =
published sometime in the last year, they=92ll use a real desktop OS and =
won't even bother looking at one of the free ones because guess what, =
the free ones just can=92t do those things, or do them badly enough that =
their users feel like they=92re perpetually living in a kind of =
self-selected ghetto. Metaphorically speaking, sleeping on the floor in =
a sleeping bag in your one-room apartment is fine when you=92re young, =
but as you get older, you want to be more comfortable and have a real =
bed in a real house!
Those are just three reasons. There are lots more, not least of which =
among them is the fact that it=92s damn hard even just to *create* =
significant applications with the weak-ass APIs that *BSD and Linux =
provide. You have to stitch together some Frankenstein collection of =
libraries out of ports (or linux packages) and then hope the whole pile =
of multi-=93vendor" bits will sort of work together, which of course =
they rarely do because they were written by several hundred different =
people with no mandate to interoperate.
April fool=92s joke? Yes, the desktop has always been one in the OSS =
space. It=92s a lousy OSS problem to try and solve because all the =
hardest parts are things nobody wants to do for free, and there=92s no =
money to be made just providing the OS (even Ubuntu, the current leader, =
seems to have =93pledge drives=94 every other week).
- Jordan
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 07:19:12 2014
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
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Hi,
On 04/01/14 07:46, Eitan Adler wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User"
> and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can
> be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a
> desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD
> can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default
> and often doesn't work as well as we would expect.
Can this be translated that "the green is always better on the other side" ?
>
> The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past:
>
> Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows
> can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it
> two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that
> we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS
> can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run
> for 16?
>
> Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically
> change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do
> that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be
> staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get
> sound streaming to other machines working if you tried.
I agree that there are usability issues with the sound framework in
FreeBSD. I've seen this myself, for example trying to get sound using
firefox, you now need pulseaudio and it must be configured correctly.
I'm pretty sure there are people around in the FreeBSD project that are
quite capable and could easily fix these issues, given some coordination
and funding. Probably you should ask the FreeBSD foundation to fund a
developer for a year or two to work on the desktop issues.
Desktop is complicated. You need to understand that many device
frameworks are designed entirely for other platforms, and I think that
the current approach to compile Linux oriented code like "HAL" under
FreeBSD is not always the right approach. We need to make our own "HAL"
that is compatible with the "Linux" Applications, that need to know
where the scanner or webcam is attached.
Speaking about sound again, I think we need a tiny library and daemon
that sits between /dev/dspX.X and the applications, that pulls together
the most common audio libraries, like portaudio, pulseaudio and the KDE
one, into a single and brand new solution. I did propose something at
EuroBSDcon last year, that we can use character device emulation in
user-space, cuse4bsd, to achieve this.
>
> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux
> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for
> server or embedded use.
Did FreeBSD ever compete on the Desktop market? While touching this
topic, I must say that I'm very grateful to all you port-guys that keep
stuff compiling and working on the Desktop front. I've asked myself a
few times during the last couple of years, who are the people really
making my FreeBSD Desktop work? Did they receive enough thanks or funds
for their work?
>
> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the
> Linux world?
Because something does not work in FreeBSD it can prove an excellent
opportunity for someone to fix it! Don't underestimate that!
--HPS
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 07:38:40 2014
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: David Chisnall <theraven@FreeBSD.org>
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On 1 Apr 2014, at 08:11, Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com> wrote:
> 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete =
top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just =
trying to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You =
need to optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power =
efficiency (which actually involves a fair amount of micro architecture =
knowledge), you need a kernel scheduler that is power management aware, =
you need a process management system that runs as few things as possible =
and knows how to schedule things during package wake-up intervals, you =
need timers to be coalesced at the level where applications consume =
them, the list just goes on and on. It=92s a lot of engineering work, =
and to drive that work you also need a lot of telemetry data and people =
with big sticks running around hitting people who write =
power-inefficient code. FreeBSD has neither.
Just a small note here: Improving power management is something that the =
Core Team and the Foundation have jointly identified as an important =
goal, in particular for mobile / embedded scenarios. We're currently =
coordinating potential sponsors for the work and soliciting proposals =
from people interested in doing the work. If you know of anyone in =
either category then please drop either me, core, or the Foundation an =
email.
Some things have already seen progress, for example Davide's calloutng =
work includes timer coalescing, but there are still a lot of, uh, =
opportunities for improvement. The Symbian EKA2 book has some very =
interesting detail on their power management infrastructure, which would =
be worth looking at for anyone interested in working on this, and I =
believe your former employer had some expertise in this area.
Of course, no matter how good the base system becomes at power =
management, we still can't prevent stuff in ports running idle =
spinloops. We can, however, provide tools that encourage =
power-efficient design. For example, currently hald wakes up every 30 =
seconds and polls the optical drive if you have one. Why? Because =
there's no devd event when a CD is inserted, so the only way for it to =
get these notifications is polling. If you have a laptop with an =
optical drive, this is really bad for power usage. =20
David
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 09:40:49 2014
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From: Lars Engels <lars.engels@0x20.net>
To: Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>
Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
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On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 12:11:19PM +0500, Jordan Hubbard wrote:
>=20
> On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com> wrote:
>=20
> > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
> > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux
> > desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for
> > server or embedded use.
> >=20
> > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
> > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the
> > Linux world?
>=20
> The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if
> it=E2=80=99s just an elaborate April Fool=E2=80=99s joke, but then the no=
tion of *BSD
> (or Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another
> long-running April fool=E2=80=99s joke, so I=E2=80=99m willing to postula=
te that two
> April Fools jokes would simply cancel each other out and make this
> posting a serious one again. :-)
>=20
> I=E2=80=99ll choose to be serious and say what I=E2=80=99m about to say i=
n spite of
> the fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually
> like the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like
> PBIs, the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu.
>=20
> There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There
> never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose
> =E2=80=9Cthe power to serve=E2=80=9D as FreeBSD=E2=80=99s first marketing=
slogan? It makes a
> fine server OS and it=E2=80=99s easy to defend its role in the server roo=
m.
> It=E2=80=99s also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, w=
hich
> is another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the
> recent developments there.
>=20
> A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be =E2=80=9CBSD on the deskto=
p=E2=80=9D
> (and while they share some common technologies, it=E2=80=99s increasingly=
a
> stretch to say that), it=E2=80=99s just never going to happen for (at lea=
st)
> the following reasons:
>=20
> 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete
> top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just
> trying to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You
> need to optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power
> efficiency (which actually involves a fair amount of micro
> architecture knowledge), you need a kernel scheduler that is power
> management aware, you need a process management system that runs as
> few things as possible and knows how to schedule things during package
> wake-up intervals, you need timers to be coalesced at the level where
> applications consume them, the list just goes on and on. It=E2=80=99s a =
lot
> of engineering work, and to drive that work you also need a lot of
> telemetry data and people with big sticks running around hitting
> people who write power-inefficient code. FreeBSD has neither.
>=20
> 2. Multimedia. A real end-user=E2=80=99s desktop is basically one big UI=
for
> watching things, listening to things, and running apps. A decent
> audio / video subsystem is just one part of the picture, and one that
> has always been really weak - entire engineering teams can spend years
> working on codecs, performance optimizations, low and guaranteed
> latency support for audio I/O, etc. What=E2=80=99s worse, the bar is only
> being raised. You want to be part of the next wave of folks who can
> author and edit content for the new 4K video standard? Not on FreeBSD
> or Linux, you=E2=80=99re not.
>=20
> 3. Applications. A desktop without real and useful applications is
> not a desktop, it=E2=80=99s just an empty display surface. Sure, there a=
re
> users out there who are happy with just a mail client, a web browser
> and maybe a calendaring app, but those users are also arguably even
> better candidates for Chrome or other simplified environments where
> all of that simply happens in a fancy web browser and you get things
> like =E2=80=9Csoftware updates=E2=80=9D and cloud integration essentially=
for free
> since it=E2=80=99s all just one cohesive picture there. The ability to s=
olve
> those user=E2=80=99s needs very simply makes them ripe targets for the web
> application delivery platforms.
>=20
> For the other folks who want to do fancier stuff like mix audio, edit
> videos or even just play mainstream 3D games that were actually
> published sometime in the last year, they=E2=80=99ll use a real desktop O=
S and
> won't even bother looking at one of the free ones because guess what,
> the free ones just can=E2=80=99t do those things, or do them badly enough=
that
> their users feel like they=E2=80=99re perpetually living in a kind of
> self-selected ghetto. Metaphorically speaking, sleeping on the floor
> in a sleeping bag in your one-room apartment is fine when you=E2=80=99re
> young, but as you get older, you want to be more comfortable and have
> a real bed in a real house!
>=20
> Those are just three reasons. There are lots more, not least of which
> among them is the fact that it=E2=80=99s damn hard even just to *create*
> significant applications with the weak-ass APIs that *BSD and Linux
> provide. You have to stitch together some Frankenstein collection of
> libraries out of ports (or linux packages) and then hope the whole
> pile of multi-=E2=80=9Cvendor" bits will sort of work together, which of
> course they rarely do because they were written by several hundred
> different people with no mandate to interoperate.
>=20
> April fool=E2=80=99s joke? Yes, the desktop has always been one in the O=
SS
> space. It=E2=80=99s a lousy OSS problem to try and solve because all the
> hardest parts are things nobody wants to do for free, and there=E2=80=99s=
no
> money to be made just providing the OS (even Ubuntu, the current
> leader, seems to have =E2=80=9Cpledge drives=E2=80=9D every other week).
>=20
> - Jordan
I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I
really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my
mail client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple
Mail! ;-)
--yKmnPmKxJBqIz68t
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 12:07:42 2014
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: Sean Bruno <seanbru@yahoo-inc.com>
To: Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com>
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Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 04:57:09 -0700
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On Mon, 2014-03-31 at 22:46 -0700, Eitan Adler wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User"
> and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can
> be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a
> desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD
> can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default
> and often doesn't work as well as we would expect.
>
> The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past:
>
> Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows
> can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it
> two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that
> we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS
> can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run
> for 16?
>
> Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically
> change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do
> that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be
> staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get
> sound streaming to other machines working if you tried.
>
> FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't
> released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on
> FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with
> the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"?
>
> In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera
> only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason
> for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape
> Linux anyways.
>
> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux
> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for
> server or embedded use.
>
> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the
> Linux world?
>
Why even bother? Its over, just embrace the future and be like this
happy Mac user:
http://people.freebsd.org/~sbruno/happy_desktop_user.jpg
sean
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 14:10:54 2014
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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:13:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: "Chris H" <bsd-lists@bsdforge.com>
To: "Eitan Adler" <lists@eitanadler.com>
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> Hi all,
>
> Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User"
> and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can
> be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a
> desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD
> can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default
> and often doesn't work as well as we would expect.
Ha, ha, ha. Reminds me of the long running 04-01 gag stating that
kernel.org ran on FreeBSD.
As to "Leaving the Desktop Market";
+1. OK by me.
OTOH The following /will/ give you everything you /claim/ isn't
/currently/ possible.
x11/xorg-minimal
x11-wm/xfce4
audio/aquqlung
multimedia/vlc
The above list also gives you the ability to switch output(s) on
the fly (via mixer).
"exotic" video card?
emulators/linux_base-f10
x11/nvidia-driver
--Chris
P.S. Happy April fools to you, too.
>
> The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past:
>
> Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows
> can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it
> two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that
> we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS
> can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run
> for 16?
>
> Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically
> change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do
> that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be
> staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get
> sound streaming to other machines working if you tried.
>
> FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't
> released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on
> FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with
> the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"?
>
> In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera
> only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason
> for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape
> Linux anyways.
>
> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux
> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for
> server or embedded use.
>
> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the
> Linux world?
>
> Eitan Adler
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>
>
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 14:46:43 2014
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Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:46:16 -0700
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X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 14:46:43 -0000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eitan Adler [mailto:lists@eitanadler.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 10:47 PM
> To: hackers@freebsd.org; current@freebsd.org; freebsd-
> advocacy@freebsd.org
> Subject: Leaving the Desktop Market
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User"
> and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can be a
> worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop.=
In
> short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to =
do
> the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as =
well as
> we would expect.
>=20
> The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past:
>=20
> Battery life sucks: it=E2=80=99s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Wi=
ndows can run
> for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I
> wonder what the key differences are? Likely it=E2=80=99s that we focus s=
o much on
> performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours
> on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16?
>=20
> Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically
> change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do
> that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be star=
ing at
> an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming=
to
> other machines working if you tried.
>=20
> FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't
> released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBS=
D.
> Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with the caveat: "but
> you won't be able to use your graphics card"?
>=20
> In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera on=
ly
> works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for vend=
ors to
> bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux anyways.
>=20
> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop
> market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux desktop" and
> start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded u=
se.
>=20
> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must
> ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world?
>=20
Eitan,
While I understand your frustration, VICOR is using FreeBSD as a Desktop si=
nce
FreeBSD 2.2. We don't use sound and we are fine relying on vesa.
While I understand that the things you listed are actual short-comings for =
normal
Desktop users, I think it's the wrong decision to say that we should be ba=
cking
out *any* functionality that would make the Desktop any more difficult to
produce.
As it stands, it would take me weeks just to count the number of workstatio=
ns
that are running a GUI, rely on one of the existing video drivers (nv, rade=
on,
mach64, etc.) and use lots of Desktop ports.
--=20
Devin
_____________
The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia=
l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an=
d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma=
nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware=
that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie=
w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you.
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 15:32:22 2014
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
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On Mon, March 31, 2014 10:46 pm, Eitan Adler wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>
> Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User"
> and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can be a
> worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop.
> In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD
> can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and
> often doesn't work as well as we would expect.
>
> The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past:
>
>
> Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows
> can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two
> hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that we
> focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can
> run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16?
>
> Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically
> change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that
> in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at
> an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming
> to other machines working if you tried.
>
> FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't
> released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD.
> Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with
> the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"?
>
> In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera
> only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for
> vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux
> anyways.
>
> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux
> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server
> or embedded use.
>
> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux
> world?
>
> Eitan Adler
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
Hi,
I don't understand the gripe about sound. OSS works well. If you install
the verson in ports, audio/oss, you get a more elaborate set of tools.
(you can use the tools with the OSS drivers in base, its possible to
remove the base OSS system and *only* use the updated OSS system however
there are some caveats that may cause serious issues with a 'user', if you
don't want to get your hands dirty don't mess with that.)
Anyhow, last I went through a few month period of experimenting with sound
and picked up a bunch of hardware on ebay, different cards from various
vendors, ie asus, creative, etc. Its possible and not too difficult to
have four or five cards on the machine and use them simultaneously. I
didn't notice any problem switching from speakers to headphones while
music is playing.
Maybe this works on other operating systems, i haven't tried.
The thing about sound, the card is a digital-to-analog converter, and
vice-versa. It uses PCM data. (PCM was actually first 'invented' in the
1800's - no fools joke). Digital audio/Sound has never really gotten
better, it has only gotten cheaper.
--
Waitman Gobble
San Jose California USA
+1.510-830-7975
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 15:45:56 2014
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From: Stefan Wendler <stefan.wendler@tngtech.com>
To: lists@eitanadler.com, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org,
freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: Fwd: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 17:45:52 +0200
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Sorry,
should have replied to everybody ;)
Cheers
---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Date: Tuesday 01 April 2014, 17:34:28
From: Stefan Wendler <stefan.wendler@tngtech.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Hi,
On Monday 31 March 2014 22:46:45 Eitan Adler wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User"
> and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can
> be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a
> desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD
> can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default
> and often doesn't work as well as we would expect.
>
I don't know the posts you are talking about. I'm using FreeBSD as a server
since Version 7. Since FreeBSD 9 I'm also using it as main notebook OS. With
everything you can imagine: sound, flash, 3D gfx, eve online via wine rocks,
printing, scanning, you name it.
Yes, FreeBSD has some rough edges. But after over 18 years of Linux I can say,
Linux has enough rough edges and depending on the current needs I more than
freaked out once with each distro. And I still am freaking out on a daily
basis as a *nix admin when one of the Linux's shows their true face. Like
undocumented autoupgrading that messes up your whole ovirt-cluster. I never
had that with a BSD.
But what there is to learn is, I only ever had problems with consumer/cheap
hardware.
Most Linux Distros suck at least one way. For me the only Distro that really
made me happy for over 14 years was Gentoo. In a way FreeBSD is similar but
much much cleaner and sorted.
It may be that FreeBSD is not for you and you are more the Linux Mint/*buntu
user. But it would be a nightmare for me, if the good FreeBSD folks would stop
supporting X-stuff. I even give to the FreeBSD Foundation on a monthly basis
with the wish to further support the desktop.
FreeBSD is quite simple once you get the hang of it. But you have to be the
person that likes to dig in sometimes. Currently it runs as smooth as butter
here. When learning to use Gentoo for example I had not only one sleepless
night where I had to fix broken libc upgrades without the ability to google
that. But this is how we learn. With FreeBSD you have at least a running base
system even if you mess up big time. Delete /usr/local/* but keep your
/usr/local/etc and start over ... try that with Linux. No chance! I can go on
here ;)
The big lag of FreeBSD is indeed vendor support. But it won't get better if we
drop support for stuff.
I'm sorry FreeBSD is such an upsetting experience for you.
> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the
> Linux world?
... PCBSD stands out in that it is a really nice experience and people from
the Linux world are asking about it and it just plain works mostly out of the
box like a ubuntu or mint does, on hardware that is not no-name. And there is
always GhostBSD (http://www.ghostbsd.org/) ... so there are two flavours
already ;)
The base system is still FreeBSD but I don't think that this is a problem.
Ever fu**d around with getting the right packages in the right versions of
some tools for example SuSE, CentOS, Debian, or whatever without freaking out?
The different approaches in packaging systems on Linux is a mess as well.
PCBSD is not for me though. But not that is isn't working but it is not for me
as a BSD user as Ubuntu never was for me as a Linux/Gentoo user.
Linux is not the silver bullet. And in every Linux forum there are always
people that complain about why Linux or this or that distro sucks and why they
move on. And even Linux wouldn't be what it is without the various BSDs.
Cheers,
Stefan
P.S. One thing they could upgrade though is the linuxulator.
_______________________________________________
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Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lars Engels [mailto:lars.engels@0x20.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 2:41 AM
> To: Jordan Hubbard
> Cc: Eitan Adler; hackers@freebsd.org; current@freebsd.org; freebsd-
> advocacy@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
>
> On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 12:11:19PM +0500, Jordan Hubbard wrote:
> >
> > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com> wrote:
> >
> > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
> > > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the
[snip]
> I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I
> really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my mail
> client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple Mail! ;-)
What e-mail client do you use? Evolution?
--
Devin
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: Randi Harper <sektie@freebsdgirl.com>
To: Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>
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On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>wrote:
>
>
> There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There never
> has been and there never will be.
Oh, god. I'm going to wake up for this mailing list just to say this:
You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the nerds are
going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop! It's totally
viable!"
Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're
masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use case
doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a market. It's
a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a small company. Many
companies combined create a market.
Back to sleep.
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: Jim Thompson <jim@netgate.com>
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On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:57 AM, Sean Bruno <seanbru@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
> Why even bother? Its over, just embrace the future and be like this
> happy Mac user:
>=20
> http://people.freebsd.org/~sbruno/happy_desktop_user.jpg
I have Macs at work (typing on one now), and a mac at home. I like =
them.
I recently installed FreeBSD 10 on an Intel i5 NUC. 16GB ram, and a =
120GB m-SATA SSD.
I put a nice keyboard and an old 19=94 Dell monitor on it, used =
vidconsole to make the screen
green on black, and a decent resolution.
It=92s just like being back in the 80s, when Unix had a desktop market, =
only much, much faster.=
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 16:35:58 2014
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From: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@UPMC.EDU>
To: Randi Harper <sektie@freebsdgirl.com>, Jordan Hubbard
<jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>
Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
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-----Original Message-----
> From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@f=
reebsd.org] On Behalf Of Randi Harper
>
>You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the nerds ar=
e going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my >desktop! It's total=
ly viable!"
>
>Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're masoc=
histic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual >use case doesn'=
t indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a market. It's a base=
ment. Your small company isn't a market. It's a >small company. Many compan=
ies combined create a market.
Why aren't all the nerds and small businesses out there a market? I'm no m=
arketing expert or anything, but it would seem that there is some kind of m=
arket out there that isn't being catered to. I may be a masochist, but I r=
efuse to have to pay Apples prices for their hardware. They just seem insa=
ne to me. If they ever decided to sell OS X for non-Apple hardware I might=
use it.
And just for the record I've been using FreeBSD as an exclusive home deskto=
p since 1999. =20
At work now so however Outlook mangles this is my fault :)
Rod Person
Programmer
(412)454-2616
Just because it can been done, does not mean it should be done.
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 16:38:49 2014
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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:41:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: "Chris H" <bsd-lists@bsdforge.com>
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>
> On Mon, March 31, 2014 10:46 pm, Eitan Adler wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>> Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User"
>> and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can be a
>> worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop.
>> In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD
>> can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and
>> often doesn't work as well as we would expect.
>>
>> The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past:
>>
>>
>> Battery life sucks: it�s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows
>> can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two
>> hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it�s that we
>> focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can
>> run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16?
>>
>> Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically
>> change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that
>> in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at
>> an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming
>> to other machines working if you tried.
>>
>> FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't
>> released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD.
>> Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with
>> the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"?
>>
>> In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera
>> only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for
>> vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux
>> anyways.
>>
>> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
>> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux
>> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server
>> or embedded use.
>>
>> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
>> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux
>> world?
>>
>> Eitan Adler
>> _______________________________________________
>> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>
> Hi,
>
> I don't understand the gripe about sound. OSS works well. If you install
> the verson in ports, audio/oss, you get a more elaborate set of tools.
---8<---
>
> The thing about sound, the card is a digital-to-analog converter, and
> vice-versa. It uses PCM data. (PCM was actually first 'invented' in the
> 1800's - no fools joke). Digital audio/Sound has never really gotten
> better, it has only gotten cheaper.
WOW. That an interesting bit of historical information.
Thanks for sharing it!
--Chris
>
>
> --
> Waitman Gobble
> San Jose California USA
> +1.510-830-7975
>
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>
>
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 17:11:29 2014
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: Matt Olander <matt@ixsystems.com>
To: Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>
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On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com> wr=
ote:
>
> On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com> wrote:
>
>> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
>> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux
>> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for
>> server or embedded use.
>>
>> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
>> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the
>> Linux world?
>
> The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if it's=
just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or Linux=
, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April fool's=
joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would simply =
cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. :-)
>
> I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of the f=
act that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the fac=
t that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the Jail War=
den, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu.
>
> There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There neve=
r has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose "the power =
to serve" as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine server OS a=
nd it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's also becoming eas=
ier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another excellent niche =
to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent developments there.
>
> A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be "BSD on the desktop" (and =
while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch to s=
ay that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the following reas=
ons:
As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's
20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game.
This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant
car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look
at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of
nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing
pretty well.
I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete
in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc.
In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k
visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and
clearly using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me!
Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P
Cheers,
-matt
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 17:43:05 2014
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From: Lars Engels <lars.engels@0x20.net>
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On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 07:52:13AM -0700, dteske@FreeBSD.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lars Engels [mailto:lars.engels@0x20.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 2:41 AM
> > To: Jordan Hubbard
> > Cc: Eitan Adler; hackers@freebsd.org; current@freebsd.org; freebsd-
> > advocacy@freebsd.org
> > Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
> >=20
> > On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 12:11:19PM +0500, Jordan Hubbard wrote:
> > >
> > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
> > > > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the
> [snip]
>=20
> > I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I
> > really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my =
mail
> > client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple Mail!=
;-)
>=20
> What e-mail client do you use? Evolution?
No, mutt, with vim as mail composer. :)
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: Andreas Nilsson <andrnils@gmail.com>
To: Matt Olander <matt@ixsystems.com>
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On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Matt Olander <matt@ixsystems.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com> wrote:
> >
> >> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
> >> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux
> >> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for
> >> server or embedded use.
> >>
> >> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
> >> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the
> >> Linux world?
> >
> > The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if
> it's just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or
> Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April
> fool's joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would
> simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. :-)
> >
> > I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of the
> fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the
> fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the Jail
> Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu.
> >
> > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There
> never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose "the
> power to serve" as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine
> server OS and it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's also
> becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another
> excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent developments
> there.
> >
> > A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be "BSD on the desktop" (and
> while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch to
> say that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the following
> reasons:
>
> As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's
> 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game.
>
> This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant
> car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look
> at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of
> nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing
> pretty well.
>
> I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete
> in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc.
>
> In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k
> visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and
> clearly using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me!
>
Seeing this I could not resist:
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/which-operating-system
>
> Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P
>
Let them prosper!
Seriously, though. There are shortcomings, sure. But I tend to prefer the
rock solid feature rich base with a somewhat shaky desktop experience than
the other alternatives.
Sure I would like to see a FreeBSD pulseaudio compatible sound server. And
perhaps a template library for pinout configs for snd-cards. And "native"
flash, although I say "flash, no thank you"
Perhaps companies such as Netflix could release FreeBSD clients ahead of
linux clients ;)
I can also say that I recently got a friend to migrate from linux on both
his home server as well as his laptop. He is very happy with the change.
Cheers
Andreas
> Cheers,
> -matt
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 19:49:28 2014
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: Brian Kim <briansan24@gmail.com>
To: Andreas Nilsson <andrnils@gmail.com>
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Hi all,
I have been a member of the FreeBSD hackers mailing list for about a year.5
now and I must say that I was looking forward to this year's 4/1 email.
Last year, I didn't even realize that the discussion of promoting i386 as a
tier 1 architecture was a joke until someone blatantly mentioned in...
To address the actual content of this thread, personally, I absolutely love
the FreeBSD os and the community that supports it. However, even as a third
year computer engineering student, I still have not overcome the overhead
that comes with becoming familiar with the UNIX environment. Of course,
that is mostly attributed to my laziness and my unwillingness to sit
through an entire reading of documentation...
To share an observation, I am a teaching assistant for a freshman C
programming class and I recently set up three FreeBSD servers, one for each
section, where students could learn to develop C programs in an actual UNIX
environment. Here is the lecture that I wrote up to help them learn the
basics: http://vecr.ece.villanova.edu/bk/fc/labs/docs/ece1620-l2unix.pdf. I
led the first section yesterday and I have to say that it was an utter
disaster. Only about 1/8th of the class showed even an ounce of interest in
this stuff (as it was something extra and not required for the course) and
I really f'ed up by trying to teach them how to use vi...
Long live the BSD community!
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Andreas Nilsson <andrnils@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Matt Olander <matt@ixsystems.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
> > >> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux
> > >> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for
> > >> server or embedded use.
> > >>
> > >> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
> > >> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the
> > >> Linux world?
> > >
> > > The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if
> > it's just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or
> > Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April
> > fool's joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would
> > simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again.
> :-)
> > >
> > > I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of the
> > fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the
> > fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the
> Jail
> > Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu.
> > >
> > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There
> > never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose "the
> > power to serve" as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine
> > server OS and it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's also
> > becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another
> > excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent
> developments
> > there.
> > >
> > > A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be "BSD on the desktop"
> (and
> > while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch to
> > say that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the following
> > reasons:
> >
> > As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's
> > 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game.
> >
> > This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant
> > car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look
> > at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of
> > nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing
> > pretty well.
> >
> > I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete
> > in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc.
> >
> > In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k
> > visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and
> > clearly using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me!
> >
>
> Seeing this I could not resist:
> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/which-operating-system
>
>
> >
> > Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P
> >
> Let them prosper!
>
> Seriously, though. There are shortcomings, sure. But I tend to prefer the
> rock solid feature rich base with a somewhat shaky desktop experience than
> the other alternatives.
>
> Sure I would like to see a FreeBSD pulseaudio compatible sound server. And
> perhaps a template library for pinout configs for snd-cards. And "native"
> flash, although I say "flash, no thank you"
>
> Perhaps companies such as Netflix could release FreeBSD clients ahead of
> linux clients ;)
>
> I can also say that I recently got a friend to migrate from linux on both
> his home server as well as his laptop. He is very happy with the change.
>
> Cheers
> Andreas
>
>
>
> > Cheers,
> > -matt
> > _______________________________________________
> > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "
> freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
> >
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>
--
Best Wishes,
Brian Kim
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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 13:02:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: "Chris H" <bsd-lists@bsdforge.com>
To: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@UPMC.EDU>
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"hackers@freebsd.org" <hackers@freebsd.org>,
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> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org] On
>> Behalf Of Randi Harper
>>
>>You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the nerds are going to step
>> up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my >desktop! It's totally viable!"
>>
>>Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're masochistic. It's
>> okay, we accept you here. But your individual >use case doesn't indicate a place in the
>> market. Your basement isn't a market. It's a basement. Your small company isn't a market.
>> It's a >small company. Many companies combined create a market.
>
> Why aren't all the nerds and small businesses out there a market? I'm no marketing expert
> or anything, but it would seem that there is some kind of market out there that isn't being
> catered to. I may be a masochist, but I refuse to have to pay Apples prices for their
> hardware. They just seem insane to me. If they ever decided to sell OS X for non-Apple
> hardware I might use it.
OK. Now that I opened my big fat mouth, and made the mistake of involving
myself earlier in this post before finishing my first of coffee. I'm already
committed, so here goes...
Can we take a look at advocacy for a moment? What defines it exactly? Is
there better advocacy than another? What's the best advocacy? Is it
contributing more $$ to the foundation? Is it contributing lines of code
to the project? Is it putting a textual, or graphical link
"the Power to Serve" on your web page? Is it telling everyone you know
about how great FreeBSD is?
I don't know. But just the other day, as I struggled with the [apparent]
direction(s) FreeBSD was taking in the past few months. I began to reflect
on the ~25yrs. of working with the code, and then (*)BSD itself. I realized
that I spent no less than 75% of my waking hours in front of the tty. Almost
all of which, was in some way related to FreeBSD. Much of it, was dedicated
to installs. I calculate to this day, I have performed some 36,000 installs.
At least 28,000 still running. Then it occurred to me; if that isn't the
BEST form of advocacy, I don't know what is. Really. Think about it.
So say what you will. Condemn, or patronize the misfits of society, the geeks,
or geeky people. But know this; if it weren't for them, FreeBSD wouldn't be
but some pie-in-the-sky ideal/dream. In some far away thought, or dream.
For the record; I /don't/ live in my basement. I /do/ take showers. I own
my home outright (2nd one, for the record). What's more, my current one
was a complete renovation, which I performed myself. Masochistic? Maybe,
but somebody has to pay the price, so others can reap the luxury. No?
--Chris out...
>
> And just for the record I've been using FreeBSD as an exclusive home desktop since 1999.
>
> At work now so however Outlook mangles this is my fault :)
>
>
>
>
>
> Rod Person
> Programmer
> (412)454-2616
>
> Just because it can been done, does not mean it should be done.
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 20:17:27 2014
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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 05:25:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: "Waitman Gobble" <uzimac@da3m0n8t3r.com>
To: "Andreas Nilsson" <andrnils@gmail.com>
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"freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <hackers@freebsd.org>,
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On Tue, April 1, 2014 11:59 am, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Matt Olander <matt@ixsystems.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard
>> <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
>>>> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the
>>>> Linux
>>>> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for
>>>> server or embedded use.
>>>>
>>>> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I
>>>> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the
>>>> Linux world?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if
>>>
>> it's just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD
>> (or
>> Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running
>> April
>> fool's joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes
>> would simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one
>> again. :-)
>>>
>>> I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of
>>> the
>> fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like
>> the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs,
>> the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu.
>>
>>>
>>> There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There
>>>
>> never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose
>> "the
>> power to serve" as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine
>> server OS and it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's
>> also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is
>> another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent
>> developments there.
>>>
>>> A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be "BSD on the desktop"
>>> (and
>>>
>> while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch
>> to say that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the
>> following reasons:
>>
>>
>> As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's
>> 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game.
>>
>>
>> This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant
>> car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look at
>> what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of
>> nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing
>> pretty well.
>>
>> I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete
>> in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc.
>>
>> In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k
>> visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and clearly
>> using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me!
>>
>
> Seeing this I could not resist:
> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/which-operating-system
>
>
>
>>
>> Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P
>>
>>
> Let them prosper!
>
>
> Seriously, though. There are shortcomings, sure. But I tend to prefer the
> rock solid feature rich base with a somewhat shaky desktop experience
> than the other alternatives.
>
> Sure I would like to see a FreeBSD pulseaudio compatible sound server.
> And
> perhaps a template library for pinout configs for snd-cards. And "native"
> flash, although I say "flash, no thank you"
>
> Perhaps companies such as Netflix could release FreeBSD clients ahead of
> linux clients ;)
>
> I can also say that I recently got a friend to migrate from linux on both
> his home server as well as his laptop. He is very happy with the change.
>
>
> Cheers
> Andreas
>
>
>
>
>> Cheers,
>> -matt
>> _______________________________________________
>> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to
>> "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>
>
re pulseaudio: I've had luck reading the raw PCM data from the /dev/dsp*
devices, storing in postgres (bytea), then later playing back to
/dev/dsp.. 'streaming' to another system (maybe pgsql as el intermedio?)
would be pretty simple. In this scenario there is no Alsa requirement,
which works for me :)
--
Waitman Gobble
San Jose California USA
+1.510-830-7975
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To: Lars Engels <lars.engels@0x20.net>
Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
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El día Tuesday, April 01, 2014 a las 07:43:02PM +0200, Lars Engels escribió:
> > > > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the
> > > > > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the
> > [snip]
> >
> > > I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I
> > > really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my mail
> > > client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple Mail! ;-)
> >
> > What e-mail client do you use? Evolution?
>
> No, mutt, with vim as mail composer. :)
+1
matthias
(FreeBSD since 2.2.5 and sending this from an EeePC 900,
netbook, UMTS connected, KDE4 desktop, sound, webcam, vim, mutt,
sendmail, ...)
--
Sent from my FreeBSD netbook
Matthias Apitz, <guru@unixarea.de>, http://www.unixarea.de/ f: +49-170-4527211
UNIX since V7 on PDP-11, UNIX on mainframe since ESER 1055 (IBM /370)
UNIX on x86 since SVR4.2 UnixWare 2.1.2, FreeBSD since 2.2.5
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
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On 04/01/2014 07:46, dteske@FreeBSD.org wrote:
> Eitan,
>
> While I understand your frustration, VICOR is using FreeBSD as a Desktop since
> FreeBSD 2.2. We don't use sound and we are fine relying on vesa.
>
> While I understand that the things you listed are actual short-comings for normal
> Desktop users, I think it's the wrong decision to say that we should be backing
> out *any* functionality that would make the Desktop any more difficult to
> produce.
>
> As it stands, it would take me weeks just to count the number of workstations
> that are running a GUI, rely on one of the existing video drivers (nv, radeon,
> mach64, etc.) and use lots of Desktop ports.
I have three FreeBSD desktops (one at work, one at home-office, and one
for the usual messing around). They're all running 9.2, with Windows
for Unix(TM)...uh, I mean KDE v4.12.3 as the GUI. Yes, I actually like KDE.
I also have a machine at home running Debian Wheezy, also with KDE, and
I have 2-3 mac devices that actually run MacOS (I have a few mac minis
that run Free- and OpenBSD). The minis work exceptionally well as
FreeBSD workstations. Each of the FreeBSD systems I have is my go-to
workstation--it's where I do most of my work. Only if I can't do
something (or don't want to run it on FreeBSD--e.g. Flash), do I use the
Mac. The Debian box I just use for messing around--nothing serious.
My home FreeBSD workstation has perfect sound, excellent graphics
(nvidia), and I can even watch a lot of video using Firefox, since video
is increasingly becoming HTML5-based. For me it "just works."
The whole combination that makes up my environment can be challenging to
keep up-to-date, but it's getting a lot easier with pkgng and
portmaster. I would hate to see this stuff, which I find very useful,
and helps me both at work and home, to be "ripped out" of the OS.
I have been using FreeBSD on the desktop since 1997, when I had two
workstations on my desk (FreeBSD and RedHat) and I let them duke it out
to see who would win. FreeBSD won then, and even though I continue to
keep a Linux desktop around for fun, FreeBSD still wins on the basis of
usability, stability, security, etc.
michael
PS. My current KDE wallpaper for my work office machine is the Windows
XP green hillside with blue sky background. It's giving people fits here.
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On 1 Apr 2014, at 23:10, Kevin Oberman <rkoberman@gmail.com> wrote:
> Audio output is pretty system dependent, but I had little problem =
getting
> my audio to auto-switch to headphones when I plugged them in. The =
setup is
> a bit ugly,but I only had to check the available PINs (ugly, ugly) and =
set
> up stuff once. It just works. If you want my example set-up, I can =
post it
> somewhere or you can look in the archives for it as I have posted it =
in the
> past.
It would be good to have this in the handbook (and to see what we can do =
to improve it). FreeBSD audio typically works out of the box and it's =
great when it does[1], but it can be underdocumented black magic to make =
it work when it doesn't. For example, I believe it's possible to tell =
pcm that when it receives a stereo stream it should redirect the left =
channel to the front and rear left, and the right channel to the front =
and rear right, but I haven't yet worked out how to do this - I'd have =
thought it was the kind of default that we'd want to have.
The use case that PulseAudio was [over]designed to fix was plugging in =
USB headphones (or connecting a Bluetooth headset) and having existing =
audio streams redirected there. This should be possible with the =
existing sound stack, but there are some bits of plumbing missing. We =
already do in-kernel mixing and resampling, which are the hard bits. =
Duplicating streams and redirecting them are trivial by comparison.
David
[1] Although I had a slightly embarrassing moment when I spent an hour =
hunting for docs to tell me how to configure my media centre box do 5.1 =
output and then decided to just try it and found it worked out of the =
box.=
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 2 11:34:16 2014
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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:34:13 +0200
From: Lars Engels <lme@FreeBSD.org>
To: David Chisnall <theraven@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Message-ID: <20140402113413.GC44074@e-new.0x20.net>
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Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, "current@freebsd.org" <current@freebsd.org>,
Matthias Apitz <guru@unixarea.de>, Kevin Oberman <rkoberman@gmail.com>,
hackers@freebsd.org, dteske@freebsd.org,
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On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 10:22:32AM +0100, David Chisnall wrote:
> On 1 Apr 2014, at 23:10, Kevin Oberman <rkoberman@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> > Audio output is pretty system dependent, but I had little problem getti=
ng
> > my audio to auto-switch to headphones when I plugged them in. The setup=
is
> > a bit ugly,but I only had to check the available PINs (ugly, ugly) and =
set
> > up stuff once. It just works. If you want my example set-up, I can post=
it
> > somewhere or you can look in the archives for it as I have posted it in=
the
> > past.
>=20
> It would be good to have this in the handbook (and to see what we can
> do to improve it). FreeBSD audio typically works out of the box and
> it's great when it does[1], but it can be underdocumented black magic
> to make it work when it doesn't. For example, I believe it's possible
> to tell pcm that when it receives a stereo stream it should redirect
> the left channel to the front and rear left, and the right channel to
> the front and rear right, but I haven't yet worked out how to do this
> - I'd have thought it was the kind of default that we'd want to have.
>=20
> The use case that PulseAudio was [over]designed to fix was plugging in
> USB headphones (or connecting a Bluetooth headset) and having existing
> audio streams redirected there. This should be possible with the
> existing sound stack, but there are some bits of plumbing missing. We
> already do in-kernel mixing and resampling, which are the hard bits.
> Duplicating streams and redirecting them are trivial by comparison.
>=20
> David
>=20
> [1] Although I had a slightly embarrassing moment when I spent an hour
> hunting for docs to tell me how to configure my media centre box do
> 5.1 output and then decided to just try it and found it worked out of
> the box.
AFAIK we already can configure HDA's sound output and input in many ways
using sysctl(8).
What's still missing is a user-friendly way to configure sound. There
are some things that can be handled in one little program / script / TUI
/ GUI / CLI:
- Default sound unit (hw.snd.default_unit)
- Use the last inserted sound device as default? (hw.snd.default_auto)=20
- PIN Routing (dev.hdaa.%d.config)
- Mixer settings
Putting it all together in something called sndcontrol should not be too
hard. It just takes someone(TM) to do it
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 2 12:06:55 2014
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>
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To: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@UPMC.EDU>
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On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:33 PM, Person, Roderick <personrp@UPMC.EDU> wrote:
> Why aren't all the nerds and small businesses out there a market? =20
Too few of you to justify the capital outlay. Now, if we were talking =
about a $1500 watch that was very nerdy and appealed to the inner James =
Bond in lots of non-nerds, the margins might just justify it. If Apple =
hardware is too expensive for you, there is always Windows and a cheap =
PC clone. Between those two poles, the entirety of the desktop market =
is pretty much spoken for. I get that there are some (mostly on these =
mailing lists) who don=92t want either, but religious / personal =
preferences to the contrary don=92t create markets until there are at =
least a few million of you.
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 2 11:55:23 2014
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: Jordan Hubbard <jkh@ixsystems.com>
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To: Jim Thompson <jim@netgate.com>
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On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:12 PM, Jim Thompson <jim@netgate.com> wrote:
> I have Macs at work (typing on one now), and a mac at home. I like =
them.
> [ =85 ]
> It=92s just like being back in the 80s, when Unix had a desktop =
market, only much, much faster.
Worry not, there=92s a product just for you now! =
http://www.macstories.net/mac/cathode-is-a-vintage-terminal-for-os-x/
Of course I have a copy. I couldn=92t resist buying it.
- Jordan
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 2 12:24:57 2014
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: Jordan Hubbard <jkh@ixsystems.com>
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To: Matt Olander <matt@ixsystems.com>
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On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:11 PM, Matt Olander <matt@ixsystems.com> wrote:
> This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant
> car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look
> at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of
> nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing
> pretty well.
I think you=92re kind of making my point for me, Matt. :-)
Tesla benefitted entirely from deep pockets on the part of its =
investors. Over $160M went into starting the company, of which $70M =
came from the personal checking account of Elon Musk, the current =
visionary and CEO, and to quote the wikipedia page: "Tesla Motors is a =
public company that trades on the NASDAQ stock exchange under the symbol =
TSLA.[5] In the first quarter of 2013, Tesla posted profits for the =
first time in its ten year history.=94
Yep, in other words, Tesla has been losing money for over 10 years and =
only just started turning a profit, after raising a =93mere" $187M in =
investment and $485M in loans from the US DOE. Your tax dollars at =
work! On top of all that Tesla has only managed to make money at all =
by focusing exclusively the highest end of the luxury car market, where =
profit margins are also the highest (the first car, the roadster, would =
set you back $110,000).
Getting back to computer operating systems, it would make most readers =
of these lists choke on their Doritos to know how much Apple had to =
invest in Mac OS X before it became a viable desktop operating system =
and of course you=92ve already seen folks screaming about how Apple gear =
is too expensive and they=92ll never buy it.
You just don=92t get a consumer-grade desktop Unix OS, or a practical =
all-electric sedan, without serious monetary investment and a luxury =
marquee to match, assuming you=92d like to actually make any of that =
money *back*.
So, back to BSD on the desktop. Anyone got a spare $200M they=92d like =
to just throw away? That=92s what it=92s going to take! :)
Don=92t believe me? Go ask someone who knows first-hand then. Ask Mark =
Shuttleworth: =
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/why-ubuntus-creator-=
still-invests-his-fortune-in-an-unprofitable-company/
:-)
- Jordan
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 2 13:34:39 2014
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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:34:34 +0200
From: "O. Hartmann" <ohartman@zedat.fu-berlin.de>
To: Kevin Oberman <rkoberman@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
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Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Matthias Apitz <guru@unixarea.de>,
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On Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:10:22 -0700
Kevin Oberman <rkoberman@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > No, mutt, with vim as mail composer. :)
> >
> > +1
> >
> > matthias
> >
> > (FreeBSD since 2.2.5 and sending this from an EeePC 900,
> > netbook, UMTS connected, KDE4 desktop, sound, webcam, vim, mutt,
> > sendmail, ...)
> >
>=20
> FreeBSD desktop since 3.3 (makes me a newbie!)=20
FreeBSD server and desktop since 2.0 (replaced Ultrix 4.3 system). Does it =
makes me an
"oldie"?=20
I'm stuck since with FreeBSD on private systems and a couple of years ago, =
I had no
problems even run servers based on FreeBSD for my department.
I dislike this unspecific terminus "desktop", since people seem to associate
entertainment systems with neat graphics, mouse and other interesting "huma=
n" stuff
(even audio). On the other hand, "server" seems hardcoded to unfancy 19inch=
rack-based
plastic-metal-based clumsy and noisy high-performance systems stored in a d=
ark
air-conditioned cellar.=20
But what is with the old-fashioned terminus "workstation"? In a more scient=
ific
environment, systems with the performance needs of a "server" but with the =
exterior
habitus of a "desktop" were very often called "workstation".
Nowadays, we run a single remaining FreeBSD server and I kept my "desktop" =
system also
working on FreeBSD (11.0, recent hardware, by the way). We had to change th=
e other
"desktops" (I prefer workstation) towards Linux due to the need of OpenCL i=
n combination
with some expensive TESLA boards for numerical modelling and datellite imag=
e processing.
The software we used was mostly "home-brewn" so we didn't rely on commercia=
l Linux-only
stuff and it would have been an easy task to run the software also on FreeB=
SD based
workstations - if the GPU could be used.=20
Even the SoC platforms come with OpenCL support (also for the GPU) these da=
ys and i do
not see anything useful on FreeBSD (except POCL for CPU usage, but no GPU).
My contribution to 1st of April ...
Oliver=20
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 2 16:47:39 2014
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: Matt Olander <matt@ixsystems.com>
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On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:24 AM, Jordan Hubbard <jkh@ixsystems.com> wrote:
>
> On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:11 PM, Matt Olander <matt@ixsystems.com> wrote:
>
>> This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant
>> car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look
>> at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of
>> nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing
>> pretty well.
>
> I think you're kind of making my point for me, Matt. :-)
>
> Tesla benefitted entirely from deep pockets on the part of its investors.=
Over $160M went into starting the company, of which $70M came from the pe=
rsonal checking account of Elon Musk, the current visionary and CEO, and to=
quote the wikipedia page: "Tesla Motors is a public company that trades o=
n the NASDAQ stock exchange under the symbol TSLA.[5] In the first quarter =
of 2013, Tesla posted profits for the first time in its ten year history."
>
> Yep, in other words, Tesla has been losing money for over 10 years and on=
ly just started turning a profit, after raising a "mere" $187M in investmen=
t and $485M in loans from the US DOE. Your tax dollars at work! On top o=
f all that Tesla has only managed to make money at all by focusing exclusiv=
ely the highest end of the luxury car market, where profit margins are also=
the highest (the first car, the roadster, would set you back $110,000).
>
> Getting back to computer operating systems, it would make most readers of=
these lists choke on their Doritos to know how much Apple had to invest in=
Mac OS X before it became a viable desktop operating system and of course =
you've already seen folks screaming about how Apple gear is too expensive a=
nd they'll never buy it.
>
> You just don't get a consumer-grade desktop Unix OS, or a practical all-e=
lectric sedan, without serious monetary investment and a luxury marquee to =
match, assuming you'd like to actually make any of that money *back*.
>
> So, back to BSD on the desktop. Anyone got a spare $200M they'd like to=
just throw away? That's what it's going to take! :)
>
> Don't believe me? Go ask someone who knows first-hand then. Ask Mark Sh=
uttleworth: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/why-ubun=
tus-creator-still-invests-his-fortune-in-an-unprofitable-company/
>
Yeah, no doubt it will cost a bit of money to compete on that level.
However, have you ever heard the phrase pioneers suffer where settlers
prosper? Meaning it may (or may not!) take significantly less to
compete once a lot of the harder problems are solved.
If we take the fact that PCs are on the decline but device adoption is
on the rise, perhaps we could focus on an Android competitor (*cough*
Cyb0rg *cough).
Wouldn't it be possible to run Android apps on *BSD via a java vm? I
will get you an Ubuntu phone for Christmas and we can try it :P
-matt
P.S., I do not have 200 million but I'm good for 10k :P
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Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Matthias Apitz <guru@unixarea.de>,
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On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 03:10:22PM -0700, Kevin Oberman wrote:
> FreeBSD desktop since 3.3 (makes me a newbie!) I really dislike pulseaudio
> and have managed to live without it. Firefox works fine without it.
> Unfortunately they dropped OSS support a while go, so I now must use alsa,
> but it works well and without the pain of dealing with pulseaudio, a
> solution in search of a problem it I ever saw one.
PA should just die, of course, just like that kid's other "products". OSS
is so nice; it supports all those nifty features like per-application mixing
and stuff, we have a very strong implementation of it (kudos to ariff@, let
me remind us all: http://people.freebsd.org/~ariff/SOUND_4.TXT.html).
Giving Firerox back its OSS support is my on TODO list, unfortunately I do
not have any idea when (or if) I can look at it, but that would be a nice
step in dealsificaion of our Ports Collection. OSS was, and should remain,
the standard Unixish sound system API.
> Audio output is pretty system dependent, but I had little problem getting
> my audio to auto-switch to headphones when I plugged them in. The setup is
> a bit ugly,but I only had to check the available PINs (ugly, ugly) and set
> up stuff once. It just works.
Not always, unfortunately. I also had a working pin override configuration
in /boot/loader.conf, but after r236750 (major snd_hda driver rewrite) it
stopped working. I've reported it and tried to get some support from mav@
but he never replied. Since then, I have to carry pre-r236750 version of
snd_hda(4) to have working sound.
> Power is an issue and I find the current defaults suck. Read mav's article
> on the subject on the wiki.
>From reading that article, I've only added hw.pci.do_power_nodriver="3" and
hw.pci.do_power_resume="0" to /boot/loader.conf. More aggressive settings,
like cx_lowest="C2", made my laptop very sluggish and unpleasant to operate;
powerd(8) behaves sanely with no tuning, so I wouldn't say that our current
defaults suck. The reason why we're behind on the "green" lane is because
we generally do not pay much attention when it comes to power-saving during
development of FreeBSD. (I'd like to be proven wrong.)
./danfe
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 3 03:42:31 2014
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Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 10:41:50 +0700
From: Alexey Dokuchaev <danfe@nsu.ru>
To: David Chisnall <theraven@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
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Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org,
Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org
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On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 08:38:28AM +0100, David Chisnall wrote:
> On 1 Apr 2014, at 08:11, Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com> wrote:
> > 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete
> > top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just trying
> > to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You need to
> > optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power efficiency
> > (which actually involves a fair amount of micro architecture knowledge),
> > you need a kernel scheduler that is power management aware, you need a
> > process management system that runs as few things as possible and knows
> > how to schedule things during package wake-up intervals, you need timers
> > to be coalesced at the level where applications consume them, the list
> > just goes on and on. It's a lot of engineering work, and to drive that
> > work you also need a lot of telemetry data and people with big sticks
> > running around hitting people who write power-inefficient code. FreeBSD
> > has neither.
Thanks Jordan, this is an excellent elaboration on why exactly we're behind
on the "green" lane, and on power-neglective FreeBSD development overall.
> Just a small note here: Improving power management is something that the
> Core Team and the Foundation have jointly identified as an important goal,
> in particular for mobile/embedded scenarios. We're currently coordinating
> potential sponsors for the work and soliciting proposals from people
> interested in doing the work. If you know of anyone in either category
> then please drop either me, core, or the Foundation an email.
>
> Some things have already seen progress, for example Davide's calloutng work
> includes timer coalescing, but there are still a lot of, uh, opportunities
> for improvement. The Symbian EKA2 book has some very interesting detail on
> their power management infrastructure, which would be worth looking at for
> anyone interested in working on this, and I believe your former employer
> had some expertise in this area.
Now that's something I'm glad to hear. It would be cool if FreeBSD gained
some power-efficient software that run smoothly together with hardware (and
laptops in particular) developed by Jordan's former employer. ;-)
> For example, currently hald wakes up every 30 seconds and polls the optical
> drive if you have one. Why? Because there's no devd event when a CD is
> inserted, so the only way for it to get these notifications is polling.
I'm surprised to find out that our devd(8) does not emit some event on CD
insertion. On the other, if by "hald" you mean the one installed by the
`sysutils/hal' port, I've personally never run it, and do not recommend it
to anyone.
./danfe
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 4 10:53:45 2014
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From: Allen <SlackWareWolf@comcast.net>
To: Randi Harper <sektie@freebsdgirl.com>,
Jordan Hubbard <jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 06:53:28 -0400
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Hi, before I go any farther, I just want to point out that I currently can
only really send emails from my phone because Comcast are jerks. So I'm
Hoping that basically this email will be displayed properly. I'm using
AquaMail, which seems to work pretty well but I haven't been active on
these lists all that often because of that.
> > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There never
> > has been and there never will be.
Oh come on now, it depends on a couple of things, and I wouldn't go that
far. I've got a lot of family members that know next to nothing about
computers, and I got tired of fixing them all the time.
Just as an example, my cousin basically destroyed his parents computer and
got a job, and bought himself a brand new computer, and had me set it up.
This was a while back and his Windows XP Home computer took all of one week
too have issues. I updated Windows and saw he had never tried.
I installed Spybot and AVG and updated them and ran them. When I got back
home, I checked them and they had found over 12,000 infections! Everything
from trojans and back doors, to those fake security centers.
He is an idiot when it comes to this stuff and I don't mind saying so. The
weird thing was that all he did on this computer, was go online with a web
browser, IM with friend's, and listen to music and download all types of
things. He did do some homework in between porn marathons too.
My point for all this is that I eventually did something that worked; I
installed Linux on his computer, made a script to keep it updated, and
basically, I had KDE installed, Gnome, and a few others, and by setting up
KDE and putting Web browser short cuts on the desktop, a shortcut to some
IM clients, an XMMS shortcut, and a few others so that he could do what he
was doing. I set up some Office suites as well, and this worked. His
machine stayed up to date without any issues, and he no longer had any
problems.
> You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the nerds are
> going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop! It's totally
> viable!"
Like I said, I wouldn't go that far; Those of us on this list probably
aren't fans of Windows, and probably only use it when required, but in the
example I gave above, I found that people who know literally nothing about
computers in general, do really well with Linux and BSD as long as I took
the time to set up the desktop for them and installed all the stuff they
needed and placed the shortcuts on the desktop. It worked really well. Even
my Mom who knows nothing about computers, can sit down and use Linux or BSD
without any trouble, as long as the desktop is set up properly.
> Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're
> masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use case
> doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a market. It's
> a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a small company. Many
> companies combined create a market.
> Back to sleep.
Now see, that has a point, but I do personally think that Unix not only
does fine on the desktop, but depending on which version, some versions are
more suited to being used as a desktop than others; PC-BSD for example,
along with SUSE and even Mandriva, all work well for this.
-Allen
Sent with AquaMail for Android
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 4 15:18:10 2014
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From: "Stephen Perry" <j.stephen.perry@gmail.com>
To: "'Allen'" <SlackWareWolf@comcast.net>
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Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 10:18:20 -0500
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> > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There
> > > never has been and there never will be.
>
> Oh come on now, it depends on a couple of things, and I wouldn't go that
far.
> I've got a lot of family members that know next to nothing about
computers,
> and I got tired of fixing them all the time.
>
> Just as an example, my cousin basically destroyed his parents computer and
> got a job, and bought himself a brand new computer, and had me set it up.
> This was a while back and his Windows XP Home computer took all of one
> week too have issues. I updated Windows and saw he had never tried.
>
> I installed Spybot and AVG and updated them and ran them. When I got back
> home, I checked them and they had found over 12,000 infections! Everything
> from trojans and back doors, to those fake security centers.
>
> He is an idiot when it comes to this stuff and I don't mind saying so. The
weird
> thing was that all he did on this computer, was go online with a web
browser,
> IM with friend's, and listen to music and download all types of things. He
did
> do some homework in between porn marathons too.
>
> My point for all this is that I eventually did something that worked; I
installed
> Linux on his computer, made a script to keep it updated, and basically, I
had
> KDE installed, Gnome, and a few others, and by setting up KDE and putting
> Web browser short cuts on the desktop, a shortcut to some IM clients, an
> XMMS shortcut, and a few others so that he could do what he was doing. I
> set up some Office suites as well, and this worked. His machine stayed up
to
> date without any issues, and he no longer had any problems.
The common denominator for these types of issues is that the average
consumer isn't properly educated on how to maintain a computer or on
responsible internet browsing. You can only get so far with Geek Squad
before they've exhausted their knowledge and competency of computers in
general.
> > You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the
> > nerds are going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop!
> > It's totally viable!"
>
> Like I said, I wouldn't go that far; Those of us on this list probably
aren't fans
> of Windows, and probably only use it when required, but in the example I
> gave above, I found that people who know literally nothing about computers
> in general, do really well with Linux and BSD as long as I took the time
to set
> up the desktop for them and installed all the stuff they needed and placed
> the shortcuts on the desktop. It worked really well. Even my Mom who
> knows nothing about computers, can sit down and use Linux or BSD without
> any trouble, as long as the desktop is set up properly.
I am a fan of Windows for the most part, probably because I enjoy gaming and
don't like looking for workarounds to what I've been accustomed to for a
couple of decades now on either Windows or Mac OS (I'm 25...interpret that
as you will). The problem that I've always seen with Linux or BSD in general
is the fact that you have to take the time to set it up or have someone do
it for you if you have no idea how to read documentation or don't feel
comfortable installing the system yourself. OS X will do the job for the
average consumer wanting a UNIX-like experience with a functional desktop
out of the box even if it costs them their kidney. I myself have little
difficulty with Linux or BSD, but I originally started out my university
life in computer science and am therefore not really your average consumer.
> > Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're
> > masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use
> > case doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a
> > market. It's a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a
> > small company. Many companies combined create a market.
>
> > Back to sleep.
>
> Now see, that has a point, but I do personally think that Unix not only
does
> fine on the desktop, but depending on which version, some versions are
> more suited to being used as a desktop than others; PC-BSD for example,
> along with SUSE and even Mandriva, all work well for this.
That's the very problem with Linux and BSD: which version should I use?
Should I go with openSUSE? Or maybe should I go with Ubuntu? Yeah, Ubuntu
looks like the easier way to find software I want. But then what version of
Ubuntu should I use? Unity, KDE, or something else? What is this OpenBox I
see everyone raving about? I just want iTunes so I can plug in my iPhone and
listen to my music; what do you mean iTunes won't work?
The reason there isn't a huge market for consumer Linux or BSD is because
consumers don't care about the alternatives that they have to set up
themselves after figuring out what disc image to download and how to burn in
to DVD or CD. What Apple and Microsoft have been very good about doing for
the past 20+ years is providing consumers with two very simple options that
work out of the box. Linux and BSD has yet to do the same from what I can
tell, even despite the efforts made by Dell (offering a single laptop
configuration with Ubuntu 12.04) and System76. The freedom that we enjoy on
BSD or Linux, or just open source as a whole, is a double-edge sword when
dealing with consumers. Despite some project's best efforts, BSD and Linux
still require a certain level of technical knowledge that Best Buy, Target,
Walmart, Fry's, and any other major brick-and-mortar retailer cannot offer
assistance in (because those employees aren't technically educated either
and have most likely only heard of Windows or OS X except in the case of
Fry's).
I am no opponent of open source at all, but the reason it hasn't done well
in consumer markets is because of the fact that it's open source and offers
far too many choices that the average, generally computer-illiterate
consumer doesn't want to make or simply doesn't care about. All of us
already know that BSD and Linux is at a technical advantage to Windows and
OS X. Until it's as easy to install and set up as it is on OS X or Windows,
it won't go anywhere for consumers.
Stephen Perry
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 4 16:00:47 2014
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From: "Chris Benesch" <chris.benesch@gmail.com>
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Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 11:00:17 -0500
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Hi guys, I've been watching this heated discussion for a few days and here
is my $.02
I'm not your average computer user either. I learned BASIC on a Commodore
64 back in 84 and decided my collection of toys was nowhere hear as fun as
making ascii art dance across the screen, or flying a carat symbol through a
canyon made of asterisks. Then I learned sprites and within a month had the
byte codes to make a circle down in my head. Amazing what young brain can
do before you hit high school and ruin it with partying :-)
I work in the software development field now professionally, mostly on large
AIX systems. My wet dream has always been to go to a full Linux / BSD
desktop for work and entertainment. I don't do a lot of gaming, so that's
not a huge issue, but there always ends up being something. Some little
thing that works fine on Windows and doesn't on *nix. I can usually find a
workaround, but again, out of the box if it weren't for my stubbornness I
would switch back pretty quickly.
I remember everyones complaint with *nix systems 10 years ago was hardware
support. "Oh theres plenty of software to do everything, but my XXX
graphics card doesn't work" Now, it's the opposite. I spend half a day
installing windows on a system and finding all the drivers, whereas *nix
picks it all up right out of the box.
We also had an old laptop and finally caved to give our 12 year old son his
own computer. The first thing I thought was "Ok I'll just throw XP on it
with Firefox and AVG" Since all he really does is look up pictures to print
out and color and play flash games. I come back a month later to do some
updates and make sure its all up to date and its running like a slug. No
viruses, nothing like that, just Winrot. So I threw Lubuntu on it and its
been humming along fine and snappy for 6 months now. It also allowed me to
get in via SSH and set up a cron job to shut itself down when hes not
supposed to be on it :) He adapted to the new environment easily and
happily uses LXDE on an Ubuntu clone and goes to school and uses Windows.
It surprises even me how adaptable he is given he has mild autism. I guess
what I'm saying is coming from a blank slate, *nix works great.
The problem, and the largest market share is the people in the middle.
Those who are used to Windows, aren't real hackers and don't want to learn
new stuff, they just want to go in and have everything look and act like
they are used to. And they don't want to lose the ability to play their
copy of Duke Nukem 3-D they bought long ago either :-)
As I see it, the solution is kind of simple. We are already there minus the
software that people may want to use that is legacy. Macintosh early on had
the ability to run .exe files, and through years of hard work, they are a
competitor to Windows. *nix .. sort of does. We need to work the hell out
of Wine and make it built into any desktop distribution. I know easier said
than done, but the end result would be worth it.
The day that Bob the car mechanic can go to Wal Mart and spend $500 on a
Windows 8 laptop that runs like a slug, or $300 on a laptop with some *nix
distro that runs twice as fast and both allow him to just pop in the CD from
an auto manufacturer and run their software will be the turning point.
The way to really make it drive its point home is gaming. I don't know much
about the internals of it, but *nix needs some good games or at least a fast
compatibility layer to play the big ones out there now.
Bottom line, make it fun and make it compatible. The lower price will
attract plenty of customers. As long as they allow us die hards to install
a text only system we're good :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Perry
Sent: Friday, April 4, 2014 10:18 AM
To: 'Allen'
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; hackers@freebsd.org; current@freebsd.org
Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
> > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux.
> > > There never has been and there never will be.
>
> Oh come on now, it depends on a couple of things, and I wouldn't go
> that
far.
> I've got a lot of family members that know next to nothing about
computers,
> and I got tired of fixing them all the time.
>
> Just as an example, my cousin basically destroyed his parents computer
> and got a job, and bought himself a brand new computer, and had me set it
up.
> This was a while back and his Windows XP Home computer took all of one
> week too have issues. I updated Windows and saw he had never tried.
>
> I installed Spybot and AVG and updated them and ran them. When I got
> back home, I checked them and they had found over 12,000 infections!
> Everything from trojans and back doors, to those fake security centers.
>
> He is an idiot when it comes to this stuff and I don't mind saying so.
> The
weird
> thing was that all he did on this computer, was go online with a web
browser,
> IM with friend's, and listen to music and download all types of
> things. He
did
> do some homework in between porn marathons too.
>
> My point for all this is that I eventually did something that worked;
> I
installed
> Linux on his computer, made a script to keep it updated, and
> basically, I
had
> KDE installed, Gnome, and a few others, and by setting up KDE and
> putting Web browser short cuts on the desktop, a shortcut to some IM
> clients, an XMMS shortcut, and a few others so that he could do what
> he was doing. I set up some Office suites as well, and this worked.
> His machine stayed up
to
> date without any issues, and he no longer had any problems.
The common denominator for these types of issues is that the average
consumer isn't properly educated on how to maintain a computer or on
responsible internet browsing. You can only get so far with Geek Squad
before they've exhausted their knowledge and competency of computers in
general.
> > You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the
> > nerds are going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop!
> > It's totally viable!"
>
> Like I said, I wouldn't go that far; Those of us on this list probably
aren't fans
> of Windows, and probably only use it when required, but in the example
> I gave above, I found that people who know literally nothing about
> computers in general, do really well with Linux and BSD as long as I
> took the time
to set
> up the desktop for them and installed all the stuff they needed and
> placed the shortcuts on the desktop. It worked really well. Even my
> Mom who knows nothing about computers, can sit down and use Linux or
> BSD without any trouble, as long as the desktop is set up properly.
I am a fan of Windows for the most part, probably because I enjoy gaming and
don't like looking for workarounds to what I've been accustomed to for a
couple of decades now on either Windows or Mac OS (I'm 25...interpret that
as you will). The problem that I've always seen with Linux or BSD in general
is the fact that you have to take the time to set it up or have someone do
it for you if you have no idea how to read documentation or don't feel
comfortable installing the system yourself. OS X will do the job for the
average consumer wanting a UNIX-like experience with a functional desktop
out of the box even if it costs them their kidney. I myself have little
difficulty with Linux or BSD, but I originally started out my university
life in computer science and am therefore not really your average consumer.
> > Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're
> > masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use
> > case doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a
> > market. It's a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a
> > small company. Many companies combined create a market.
>
> > Back to sleep.
>
> Now see, that has a point, but I do personally think that Unix not
> only
does
> fine on the desktop, but depending on which version, some versions are
> more suited to being used as a desktop than others; PC-BSD for
> example, along with SUSE and even Mandriva, all work well for this.
That's the very problem with Linux and BSD: which version should I use?
Should I go with openSUSE? Or maybe should I go with Ubuntu? Yeah, Ubuntu
looks like the easier way to find software I want. But then what version of
Ubuntu should I use? Unity, KDE, or something else? What is this OpenBox I
see everyone raving about? I just want iTunes so I can plug in my iPhone and
listen to my music; what do you mean iTunes won't work?
The reason there isn't a huge market for consumer Linux or BSD is because
consumers don't care about the alternatives that they have to set up
themselves after figuring out what disc image to download and how to burn in
to DVD or CD. What Apple and Microsoft have been very good about doing for
the past 20+ years is providing consumers with two very simple options that
work out of the box. Linux and BSD has yet to do the same from what I can
tell, even despite the efforts made by Dell (offering a single laptop
configuration with Ubuntu 12.04) and System76. The freedom that we enjoy on
BSD or Linux, or just open source as a whole, is a double-edge sword when
dealing with consumers. Despite some project's best efforts, BSD and Linux
still require a certain level of technical knowledge that Best Buy, Target,
Walmart, Fry's, and any other major brick-and-mortar retailer cannot offer
assistance in (because those employees aren't technically educated either
and have most likely only heard of Windows or OS X except in the case of
Fry's).
I am no opponent of open source at all, but the reason it hasn't done well
in consumer markets is because of the fact that it's open source and offers
far too many choices that the average, generally computer-illiterate
consumer doesn't want to make or simply doesn't care about. All of us
already know that BSD and Linux is at a technical advantage to Windows and
OS X. Until it's as easy to install and set up as it is on OS X or Windows,
it won't go anywhere for consumers.
Stephen Perry
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Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 18:42:57 -0400
Message-ID: <CA+WntOusd0oSKFjTfDrCT6BF2JTWaAG14q2tF2hChwYVgL4bYg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
From: Joe Nosay <superbisquit@gmail.com>
To: Chris Benesch <chris.benesch@gmail.com>
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X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 22:42:58 -0000
On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Chris Benesch <chris.benesch@gmail.com>wrote:
> Hi guys, I've been watching this heated discussion for a few days and here
> is my $.02
>
> I'm not your average computer user either. I learned BASIC on a Commodore
> 64 back in 84 and decided my collection of toys was nowhere hear as fun as
> making ascii art dance across the screen, or flying a carat symbol through
> a
> canyon made of asterisks. Then I learned sprites and within a month had
> the
> byte codes to make a circle down in my head. Amazing what young brain can
> do before you hit high school and ruin it with partying :-)
>
> I work in the software development field now professionally, mostly on
> large
> AIX systems. My wet dream has always been to go to a full Linux / BSD
> desktop for work and entertainment. I don't do a lot of gaming, so that's
> not a huge issue, but there always ends up being something. Some little
> thing that works fine on Windows and doesn't on *nix. I can usually find a
> workaround, but again, out of the box if it weren't for my stubbornness I
> would switch back pretty quickly.
>
> I remember everyones complaint with *nix systems 10 years ago was hardware
> support. "Oh theres plenty of software to do everything, but my XXX
> graphics card doesn't work" Now, it's the opposite. I spend half a day
> installing windows on a system and finding all the drivers, whereas *nix
> picks it all up right out of the box.
>
> We also had an old laptop and finally caved to give our 12 year old son his
> own computer. The first thing I thought was "Ok I'll just throw XP on it
> with Firefox and AVG" Since all he really does is look up pictures to
> print
> out and color and play flash games. I come back a month later to do some
> updates and make sure its all up to date and its running like a slug. No
> viruses, nothing like that, just Winrot. So I threw Lubuntu on it and its
> been humming along fine and snappy for 6 months now. It also allowed me to
> get in via SSH and set up a cron job to shut itself down when hes not
> supposed to be on it :) He adapted to the new environment easily and
> happily uses LXDE on an Ubuntu clone and goes to school and uses Windows.
> It surprises even me how adaptable he is given he has mild autism. I guess
> what I'm saying is coming from a blank slate, *nix works great.
>
> The problem, and the largest market share is the people in the middle.
> Those who are used to Windows, aren't real hackers and don't want to learn
> new stuff, they just want to go in and have everything look and act like
> they are used to. And they don't want to lose the ability to play their
> copy of Duke Nukem 3-D they bought long ago either :-)
>
> As I see it, the solution is kind of simple. We are already there minus
> the
> software that people may want to use that is legacy. Macintosh early on
> had
> the ability to run .exe files, and through years of hard work, they are a
> competitor to Windows. *nix .. sort of does. We need to work the hell out
> of Wine and make it built into any desktop distribution. I know easier
> said
> than done, but the end result would be worth it.
>
> The day that Bob the car mechanic can go to Wal Mart and spend $500 on a
> Windows 8 laptop that runs like a slug, or $300 on a laptop with some *nix
> distro that runs twice as fast and both allow him to just pop in the CD
> from
> an auto manufacturer and run their software will be the turning point.
>
> The way to really make it drive its point home is gaming. I don't know
> much
> about the internals of it, but *nix needs some good games or at least a
> fast
> compatibility layer to play the big ones out there now.
>
> Bottom line, make it fun and make it compatible. The lower price will
> attract plenty of customers. As long as they allow us die hards to install
> a text only system we're good :-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
> [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Perry
> Sent: Friday, April 4, 2014 10:18 AM
> To: 'Allen'
> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; hackers@freebsd.org; current@freebsd.org
> Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
>
> > > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux.
> > > > There never has been and there never will be.
> >
> > Oh come on now, it depends on a couple of things, and I wouldn't go
> > that
> far.
> > I've got a lot of family members that know next to nothing about
> computers,
> > and I got tired of fixing them all the time.
> >
> > Just as an example, my cousin basically destroyed his parents computer
> > and got a job, and bought himself a brand new computer, and had me set it
> up.
> > This was a while back and his Windows XP Home computer took all of one
> > week too have issues. I updated Windows and saw he had never tried.
> >
> > I installed Spybot and AVG and updated them and ran them. When I got
> > back home, I checked them and they had found over 12,000 infections!
> > Everything from trojans and back doors, to those fake security centers.
> >
> > He is an idiot when it comes to this stuff and I don't mind saying so.
> > The
> weird
> > thing was that all he did on this computer, was go online with a web
> browser,
> > IM with friend's, and listen to music and download all types of
> > things. He
> did
> > do some homework in between porn marathons too.
> >
> > My point for all this is that I eventually did something that worked;
> > I
> installed
> > Linux on his computer, made a script to keep it updated, and
> > basically, I
> had
> > KDE installed, Gnome, and a few others, and by setting up KDE and
> > putting Web browser short cuts on the desktop, a shortcut to some IM
> > clients, an XMMS shortcut, and a few others so that he could do what
> > he was doing. I set up some Office suites as well, and this worked.
> > His machine stayed up
> to
> > date without any issues, and he no longer had any problems.
>
> The common denominator for these types of issues is that the average
> consumer isn't properly educated on how to maintain a computer or on
> responsible internet browsing. You can only get so far with Geek Squad
> before they've exhausted their knowledge and competency of computers in
> general.
>
> > > You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the
> > > nerds are going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop!
> > > It's totally viable!"
> >
> > Like I said, I wouldn't go that far; Those of us on this list probably
> aren't fans
> > of Windows, and probably only use it when required, but in the example
> > I gave above, I found that people who know literally nothing about
> > computers in general, do really well with Linux and BSD as long as I
> > took the time
> to set
> > up the desktop for them and installed all the stuff they needed and
> > placed the shortcuts on the desktop. It worked really well. Even my
> > Mom who knows nothing about computers, can sit down and use Linux or
> > BSD without any trouble, as long as the desktop is set up properly.
>
> I am a fan of Windows for the most part, probably because I enjoy gaming
> and
> don't like looking for workarounds to what I've been accustomed to for a
> couple of decades now on either Windows or Mac OS (I'm 25...interpret that
> as you will). The problem that I've always seen with Linux or BSD in
> general
> is the fact that you have to take the time to set it up or have someone do
> it for you if you have no idea how to read documentation or don't feel
> comfortable installing the system yourself. OS X will do the job for the
> average consumer wanting a UNIX-like experience with a functional desktop
> out of the box even if it costs them their kidney. I myself have little
> difficulty with Linux or BSD, but I originally started out my university
> life in computer science and am therefore not really your average consumer.
>
> > > Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're
> > > masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use
> > > case doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a
> > > market. It's a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a
> > > small company. Many companies combined create a market.
> >
> > > Back to sleep.
> >
> > Now see, that has a point, but I do personally think that Unix not
> > only
> does
> > fine on the desktop, but depending on which version, some versions are
> > more suited to being used as a desktop than others; PC-BSD for
> > example, along with SUSE and even Mandriva, all work well for this.
>
> That's the very problem with Linux and BSD: which version should I use?
> Should I go with openSUSE? Or maybe should I go with Ubuntu? Yeah, Ubuntu
> looks like the easier way to find software I want. But then what version of
> Ubuntu should I use? Unity, KDE, or something else? What is this OpenBox I
> see everyone raving about? I just want iTunes so I can plug in my iPhone
> and
> listen to my music; what do you mean iTunes won't work?
>
> The reason there isn't a huge market for consumer Linux or BSD is because
> consumers don't care about the alternatives that they have to set up
> themselves after figuring out what disc image to download and how to burn
> in
> to DVD or CD. What Apple and Microsoft have been very good about doing for
> the past 20+ years is providing consumers with two very simple options that
> work out of the box. Linux and BSD has yet to do the same from what I can
> tell, even despite the efforts made by Dell (offering a single laptop
> configuration with Ubuntu 12.04) and System76. The freedom that we enjoy
> on
> BSD or Linux, or just open source as a whole, is a double-edge sword when
> dealing with consumers. Despite some project's best efforts, BSD and Linux
> still require a certain level of technical knowledge that Best Buy, Target,
> Walmart, Fry's, and any other major brick-and-mortar retailer cannot offer
> assistance in (because those employees aren't technically educated either
> and have most likely only heard of Windows or OS X except in the case of
> Fry's).
>
> I am no opponent of open source at all, but the reason it hasn't done well
> in consumer markets is because of the fact that it's open source and offers
> far too many choices that the average, generally computer-illiterate
> consumer doesn't want to make or simply doesn't care about. All of us
> already know that BSD and Linux is at a technical advantage to Windows and
> OS X. Until it's as easy to install and set up as it is on OS X or Windows,
> it won't go anywhere for consumers.
>
> Stephen Perry
>
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org
> "
>
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org
> "
>
Another alternative is to offer custom built systems using Open Source.
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 5 11:18:03 2014
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From: Mayuresh Kathe <mayuresh@kathe.in>
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Subject: there's something about freebsd!
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hello, it's been less than a week i've been exploring freebsd 10
as an alternative to my previous default ubuntu and sometimes a
heavy dose of openbsd.
why did i migrate to freebsd 10 in the first place?
well, simply because i wanted to have a well supported clan/llvm
based system, and mac os x based options were to expensive. :)
guess what, in these past 4 days, i have grown to like freebsd.
and why is that?
very simply, the community, it's awesome. :)
especially when compared to the newbie hostile openbsd community.
yes, the openbsd crowd too is helpful, but any suggestion for
improvements or enhancements are usually shot down, quite brutally.
out here, it's a lot more friendlier and people are a lot more
supporting towards a newbie's condition.
so, i guess, i am sure to migrate away from all the rest and stick
with freebsd for the foreseable future.
wish me good luck and perseverence. ;)
~mayuresh
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 11:06:40 2014
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o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
1 problem total.
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 9 04:13:05 2014
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Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 14:12:57 +1000
From: Kubilay Kocak <koobs.freebsd@gmail.com>
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To: Mayuresh Kathe <mayuresh@kathe.in>, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: there's something about freebsd!
References: <20140405111756.GB11187@SDF.ORG>
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On 5/04/2014 10:17 PM, Mayuresh Kathe wrote:
> hello, it's been less than a week i've been exploring freebsd 10
> as an alternative to my previous default ubuntu and sometimes a
> heavy dose of openbsd.
>
> why did i migrate to freebsd 10 in the first place?
> well, simply because i wanted to have a well supported clan/llvm
> based system, and mac os x based options were to expensive. :)
>
> guess what, in these past 4 days, i have grown to like freebsd.
> and why is that?
> very simply, the community, it's awesome. :)
> especially when compared to the newbie hostile openbsd community.
> yes, the openbsd crowd too is helpful, but any suggestion for
> improvements or enhancements are usually shot down, quite brutally.
>
> out here, it's a lot more friendlier and people are a lot more
> supporting towards a newbie's condition.
>
> so, i guess, i am sure to migrate away from all the rest and stick
> with freebsd for the foreseable future.
>
> wish me good luck and perseverence. ;)
>
> ~mayuresh
>
Welcome to the community & FreeBSD Mayuresh :)
Thank you for taking the time to let us know about your experience, it's
always great to hear feedback.
Have fun!
Koobs
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S Tracker Resp. Description
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o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
1 problem total.
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 14:20:51 2014
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Subject: GuideStar Issues Gold to Nonprofit That Supports Nonprofits
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[1]NDI Celebrates GuideStar Award Gifting Digital Resources to
Nonprofits - Visit HERE to Download
In Celebration, the founders of National Development Institute have
opened NDI's Digital Download Library for 24hrs making available a
myriad of resources to nonprofit executives. Please visit above to
download your complimentary gifts.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (April 15, 2014)
36 months ago, GuideStar USA issued their Exchange Seal of Transparency
in Nonprofit Management to National Development Institute (NDI).
Today, after three years of successful participation in this
program, GuideStar awarded NDI its Gold Level Participant's Seal of
Excellence, a leading symbol of transparency and GuideStar's highest
decoration(of the 37,863 charitable agencies who participate in
GuideStar's Transparency Exchange Program only 2,992 nonprofits
including National Development Institute have achieved Gold Status.)
Jimmy LaRose, NDI's founder was quoted, "We want to thank NDI's donors,
corporations and foundations for their financial investment in the many
programs our faculty, staff & administration oversee. Their gifts made
possible our service to over 3,450 organizations these past three
years. GuideStar's confidence in National Development Institute further
inspires our team to do our work in the bright light of openness and
accountability. Our many thanks to GuideStar for truly contributing to
the advancement of civil society."
Charles Anderson, NDI's CEO shared, "We're grateful that GuideStar
provides organizations like National Development Institute the
opportunity to showcase excellence in nonprofit management. Today's
issuance of Gold Level Status places NDI in the top ten percent of
charities who participate in the GuideStar program demonstrating to our
supporters that NDI is a good steward of their gifts."
About GuideStar Exchange
The GuideStar Exchange Program has been designed to connect financial
supporters with charitable agencies whose programs ensure donors
accomplish their philanthropic goals. Millions of leaders rely on
GuideStar's research to accurately understand the impact an individual
nonprofit has when it realizes its mission. GuideStar USA highlights
the different dimensions of management and impact administered by a
charity providing donors a wealth of information they can rely on when
inspired to share a financial gift.
To stop receiving messages from the NDI Master Broadcast Files, click
[2]here.
To pass a copy of this message on to a friend, click [3]here.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 3 15:58:01 2014
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Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 17:57:45 +0200
From: Matthias Apitz <guru@unixarea.de>
To: David Chisnall <theraven@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Message-ID: <20140503155745.GA2457@La-Habana>
References: <CAF6rxgkeBozvfV-L0+rFZ6fWRn0=Gi3BNq1kPL=-HTq0TD6MkQ@mail.gmail.com>
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El día Tuesday, April 01, 2014 a las 08:38:28AM +0100, David Chisnall escribió:
>
> Just a small note here: Improving power management is something that the Core Team and the Foundation have jointly identified as an important goal, in particular for mobile / embedded scenarios. We're currently coordinating potential sponsors for the work and soliciting proposals from people interested in doing the work. If you know of anyone in either category then please drop either me, core, or the Foundation an email.
>
Hello,
Using every day one of my FreeBSD netbooks (see below), I know very well
that improving power management and by this the uptime while running on
battery is a serious issue. I'm currently surprised about the big
diff between two of my netbooks, one running 1 hour only while the other
runs ~4 hours. I'm thinking about building a cable connection between
the battery and the netbooks to measure the exact power drain (normally
one can not see this because the battery is connected into its bay and
you can not put any meter in there).
I'm an experienced C-programmer and long time FreeBSD user and tester
and I'm willing to dig deeper into this work. Please let me know if
there is something to work on.
Attached below is a description of the two mentioned netbooks and their
uptime values.
Thanks
matthias
comparing battery life time of [EeePC 900] and [Acer Aspire One D250]
| EeePC 900 | Acer Aspire One D250
----------+-----------------------------+------------------------------------
CPU | 900 MHz Intel Celeron M 353 | 2x Intel Atom CPU N270 @ 1.60GHz
RAM | 2 GByte | 1 GByte
disk | 2x SSD (4 GB, 16 GB) | WDC WD2500BEVT-22ZCT0 11.01A11
| | ATA-8 SATA 2.x, 238475MB
display | TFT 1024x600 9" | TFT 1024x600 10"
FreeBSD | 10-CURRENT r255948 | 10-CURRENT r250588
KDE | 4.10.5 | 3.5.10
WAN (UMTS)| USB u3g Huawei E1750 | USB u3g Huawei E1750
----------+-----------------------------+------------------------------------
battery | Li-ion A22-701 7.4V 7200mAh | Li-ion UM08B74 11.1V 5200mAh / 54Wh
| 53.380Wh | 57.720Wh
----------+-----------------------------+------------------------------------
uptime | ~1 hours | ~4 hours
----------+-----------------------------+------------------------------------
--
Matthias Apitz | /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign:
E-mail: guru@unixarea.de | \ / - No HTML/RTF in E-mail
WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ | X - No proprietary attachments
phone: +49-170-4527211 | / \ - Respect for open standards
| en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII_Ribbon_Campaign
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 3 16:37:10 2014
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Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
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To: Matthias Apitz <guru@unixarea.de>
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Hi,
I'm working on adding some more power management logging support to
freebsd-head so we can start to get a better grip on sleep/wakeup
occurances. That should help us start to figure out where the power
consumption is going.
But on that EEEPC 900, just make sure you've set dev.cpu.0.cx_lowest
to something lower than C1.
-a
On 3 May 2014 08:57, Matthias Apitz <guru@unixarea.de> wrote:
> El d=C3=ADa Tuesday, April 01, 2014 a las 08:38:28AM +0100, David Chisnal=
l escribi=C3=B3:
>
>>
>> Just a small note here: Improving power management is something that the=
Core Team and the Foundation have jointly identified as an important goal,=
in particular for mobile / embedded scenarios. We're currently coordinati=
ng potential sponsors for the work and soliciting proposals from people int=
erested in doing the work. If you know of anyone in either category then p=
lease drop either me, core, or the Foundation an email.
>>
>
> Hello,
>
> Using every day one of my FreeBSD netbooks (see below), I know very well
> that improving power management and by this the uptime while running on
> battery is a serious issue. I'm currently surprised about the big
> diff between two of my netbooks, one running 1 hour only while the other
> runs ~4 hours. I'm thinking about building a cable connection between
> the battery and the netbooks to measure the exact power drain (normally
> one can not see this because the battery is connected into its bay and
> you can not put any meter in there).
>
> I'm an experienced C-programmer and long time FreeBSD user and tester
> and I'm willing to dig deeper into this work. Please let me know if
> there is something to work on.
>
> Attached below is a description of the two mentioned netbooks and their
> uptime values.
>
> Thanks
>
> matthias
>
>
>
> comparing battery life time of [EeePC 900] and [Acer Aspire One D250]
>
>
> | EeePC 900 | Acer Aspire One D250
> ----------+-----------------------------+--------------------------------=
----
> CPU | 900 MHz Intel Celeron M 353 | 2x Intel Atom CPU N270 @ 1.60GH=
z
> RAM | 2 GByte | 1 GByte
> disk | 2x SSD (4 GB, 16 GB) | WDC WD2500BEVT-22ZCT0 11.01A11
> | | ATA-8 SATA 2.x, 238475MB
> display | TFT 1024x600 9" | TFT 1024x600 10"
> FreeBSD | 10-CURRENT r255948 | 10-CURRENT r250588
> KDE | 4.10.5 | 3.5.10
> WAN (UMTS)| USB u3g Huawei E1750 | USB u3g Huawei E1750
> ----------+-----------------------------+--------------------------------=
----
> battery | Li-ion A22-701 7.4V 7200mAh | Li-ion UM08B74 11.1V 5200mAh / =
54Wh
> | 53.380Wh | 57.720Wh
> ----------+-----------------------------+--------------------------------=
----
> uptime | ~1 hours | ~4 hours
> ----------+-----------------------------+--------------------------------=
----
>
>
> --
> Matthias Apitz | /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign:
> E-mail: guru@unixarea.de | \ / - No HTML/RTF in E-mail
> WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ | X - No proprietary attachments
> phone: +49-170-4527211 | / \ - Respect for open standards
> | en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII_Ribbon_Campaig=
n
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org=
"
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o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
1 problem total.
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o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
1 problem total.
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o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
1 problem total.
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 21:50:57 2014
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I'm a serious Unix head. Here is the proof!
:-)
Sincerely,
~Christopher Henderson
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 21:53:13 2014
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I tried sharing my tattoo. No attachments allowed?
~Christopher
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 21:58:12 2014
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didn't you forget the picture?
Le 19/05/2014 23:50, Christopher a écrit :
> I'm a serious Unix head. Here is the proof!
>
> :-)
>
> Sincerely,
> ~Christopher Henderson
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 21:59:34 2014
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From: Christopher <redcommiebastard@riseup.net>
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I'll try this again...
~Christopher
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 22:00:43 2014
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just send us a link and stop wanking around on these MLs :p
Le 19/05/2014 23:59, Christopher a écrit :
> I'll try this again...
>
> ~Christopher
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 22:01:21 2014
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http://picpaste.com/1384346_1405282959700964_1144484640_n-9GST7qlx.jpg
There, no attachment. Just click on the link.
Sincerely,
~Christopher
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 22:18:35 2014
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Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 00:15:49 +0200
From: Datasmurf <datasmurf@mail.ru>
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Subject: Re: My Daemon Tat - take 3
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On Mon, 19 May 2014 17:01:17 -0500
Christopher <redcommiebastard@riseup.net> wrote:
> http://picpaste.com/1384346_1405282959700964_1144484640_n-9GST7qlx.jpg
>
> There, no attachment. Just click on the link.
>
> Sincerely,
> ~Christopher
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to
> "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>
neat!
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 26 11:06:42 2014
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Note: to view an individual PR, use:
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number).
The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users.
These represent problem reports covering all versions including
experimental development code and obsolete releases.
S Tracker Resp. Description
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook
1 problem total.
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 29 09:57:01 2014
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 22:18:07 2014
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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:17:58 +0200
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FreeBSD at Solutions Linux 2014
In may 19, took place in Paris (La Défense), France ,"Solutions Linux",
a two days professional exhibition dedicated to free software and open
source. Half of the exposition hall was dedicated to professionals
selling open source solutions, the other half to open source groups.
In 2013 Solutions Linux was 5980 visitors and 180 stands.
For quite along time, with BSDFrance, we participate to the event to
help promoting FreeBSD and other BSDs to the visitors.
Usually we made a large order to the FreeBSD mall before the event, then
we sell all those stuff (t-shirts, caps and so on), but due to a lack of
time we run a less abundant stand, but we have nice stickers ! few horns
and stress balls.
We also draws lots between donators, 4 paperback copies of the Michale
Lucas books "sudo mastery" and "DNSSec Mastery".
We had a lot of fun, exchanging with visitors and peoples from other
projects and answer a lot of question, specially about pkg and the wip
in the ports tree.
We also collect 155 euros (about 210 USD) for the FreeBSD project.
And of course we had 4 winners for the books \o/ ... plus someone who
wants to exchange a price from another stand with one of the Michael's
books.
We Freeddy Dissaux (bsdsx), and me (rodrigo@) want to thanks all the
volunteers who comes to help us.
You can see a few pictures took during the event here[1]. I also have
the full set here[2]
Regards,
- rodrigo
[1] http://www.bebik.net/cgi-bin/album.pl?album=2014_SL_FreeBSD
[2] http://www.bebik.net/cgi-bin/album.pl?album=2014SL
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 17:17:03 2014
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Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 22:46:59 +0530
From: Mayuresh Kathe <mayuresh@kathe.in>
To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: it feels good to be back ...
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hello, i had mistakenly posted a similar mail to freebsd-questions. :)
i am finally back in freebsd land, and it feels good.
after my good experiences with freebsd (especially the mailing lists),
i figured, it would be unwise to not give the other bsd systems a look.
so, i went off and landed in netbsd land, and golly, it was a good
experience, the community is quite friendly and the system feels quite
zippy, but after using it a while, i felt uncomfortable, don't know
what exactly, but, it just didn't feel like home.
i then moved over to openbsd land, and golly, are they still grumpy out
there! but their system has been improved to a very high degree, much
better than what i tried out a year back, but again, it just didn't feel
quite like home.
so i came back to freebsd, and all seems well.
the system is so well engineered and takes into consideration users
needs
from a very pragmatic point-of-view, that it feels quite natural working
with it.
so, thanks to the freebsd team and it's user community, for giving me
a reason to continue with freebsd. :)
best,
~mayuresh
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 22 22:20:16 2014
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From: Damian Vicino <sdavtaker@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 18:19:55 -0400
Message-ID: <CAMMGxOx6Zd1-Tk=v8MhkjO4hv1BmsMgnKZU4hRG4aoikRhxQhw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Call for talks BSDday 2014
To: FreeBSD Advocacy <advocacy@freebsd.org>
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BSDday (Argentina) 2014 will be held 9th August 2014 in University
of Buenos Aires' Faculty of natural and exact sciences.
BSDday conference was created in 2008 and it is the only active conference
in Argentina.
Previous years attendants were mostly sysadmins, but developers and users
are encouraged to participate too.
Our conference budget is very tight, so no promises can be done at this
point about covering any traveling expenses.
Anyway, we are working in get more founding right now and it might
be possible in some cases.
The submits should be sent to cfp [at] bsdday.org before 1st august and
include:
- Talk title
- Authors information
- Estimated duration time for the talk.
- Required previous knowledges.
- Topic area
- Contacts (phone and email)
The conference usually redistributes the slides and video of the
talks afterwards, so we also require you to chose a Licence for
the distribution that allow us to redistribute it.
Best regards,
BSDday-Argentina organization committee
From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 22 22:25:20 2014
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Subject: Re: it feels good to be back ...
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On 22/06/2014 3:16 AM, Mayuresh Kathe wrote:
> hello, i had mistakenly posted a similar mail to freebsd-questions. :)
>
> i am finally back in freebsd land, and it feels good.
>
> after my good experiences with freebsd (especially the mailing lists),
> i figured, it would be unwise to not give the other bsd systems a look.
>
> so, i went off and landed in netbsd land, and golly, it was a good
> experience, the community is quite friendly and the system feels quite
> zippy, but after using it a while, i felt uncomfortable, don't know
> what exactly, but, it just didn't feel like home.
>
> i then moved over to openbsd land, and golly, are they still grumpy out
> there! but their system has been improved to a very high degree, much
> better than what i tried out a year back, but again, it just didn't feel
> quite like home.
>
> so i came back to freebsd, and all seems well.
>
> the system is so well engineered and takes into consideration users needs
> from a very pragmatic point-of-view, that it feels quite natural working
> with it.
>
> so, thanks to the freebsd team and it's user community, for giving me
> a reason to continue with freebsd. :)
Welcome home Mayuresh, and thank you for taking the time to let us all
know what keeps you coming back :)
--
Koobs