From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sun Nov 8 15:55:12 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1793A29C4E for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 15:55:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 857B910AE for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 15:55:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 82459A29C4B; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 15:55:12 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FBEBA29C4A; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 15:55:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: from alchemy.franken.de (alchemy.franken.de [194.94.249.214]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "alchemy.franken.de", Issuer "alchemy.franken.de" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D8BA10AB; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 15:55:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: from alchemy.franken.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alchemy.franken.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/ALCHEMY.FRANKEN.DE) with ESMTPS id tA8Ft1mu049757 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:55:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: (from marius@localhost) by alchemy.franken.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id tA8Ft1wx049756; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:55:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from marius) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:55:01 +0100 From: Marius Strobl To: Warner Losh Cc: sbruno@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch , sparc64@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (alchemy.franken.de [0.0.0.0]); Sun, 08 Nov 2015 16:55:02 +0100 (CET) X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 15:55:12 -0000 On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 04:19:38PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Nov 4, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Sean Bruno wrote: > > > > So here's the thing, Sparc64 is *just* barely alive in FreeBSD. > > Has anybody actually booted it off a newish tree? Yes, just works fine there as of r290419. root@v215:~ # uname -a FreeBSD v215.zeist.de 11.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT #1 r290419: Thu Nov 5 23:01:37 CET 2015 marius@v215.zeist.de:/tmp/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC sparc64 > > There is exactly 1 Sparc64 machine as a ref box being hosted at Yahoo > > for the project. No new hardware is on the horizon. Over time, linimon@ and me independently tried to get more sparc64 machines there but failed. As far as I was involved the goal was to get hardware being offered for donation in the US there but it turned out that's it's just impossible to coordinate that from over here. However, I've been told that the primary reason for getting rid of the collocation at Yahoo is to improve the situation with on-site maintenance. So getting sparc64 hosts set up it the project cluster may actually be feasible now. I probably should check with glen@. Anyway, how many arm, mips, powerpc and powerpc64 reference machines are there in the project cluster and available for general use by developers? If there were, what would you do with them? According to my experience, the very few !x86 machines that actually are in there aren't really useful without root access. > > None of the newer > > Sparc64 processors have been tested to work on FreeBSD and nobody is > > clamoring to get them working. Unlike x86, sun4u and sun4v CPUs are only designed to be backwards compatible as far as the userland is concerned, host-PCI{,e}-bridges aren't compatible etc. So the kernel side always needs work and it simply isn't a matter of "testing" newer CPUs and models to work. Thus, the hardware is needed for developing support, see also below. I'm not sure at which point I'd speak of people "clamoring" for support of some hardware; f. e. there also isn't a request for the graphics of Haswell and later Intel CPUs to be supported on the mailing lists every other day but you'll certainly agree that many are waiting for it. Now there likely are fewer people looking forward for later sun4u and sun4v processors getting supported but there definitely are people asking for it, just have a look at the lists. > > We're moving into a post-gcc base system now, and sparc64 is the obvious > > "odd arch" here. There's activity to get MIPS moved to clang and active > > work to get powerpc moved fully to clang. Leaving Sparc64 in base, > > requires someone to either make clang DTRT or keep gcc 4.2.1-ish alive. I don't see why sparc64 would be "the obvious odd arch" in that regard. The real problem is switching an architecture for which clang might have gotten en par with GCC after clang was changed to require C++11 for bootstrap. Given that clang was only the default on arm and x86 at that point in time, we are now stuck without an in-tree upgrade path on all other architectures. Granted, that might be lesser a problem on mips as these machines typically don't have enough CPU and RAM that self-hosting would be interesting in the first place. That still puts sparc64 into the same boat as powerpc and powerpc64, though. > There was some work to get clang to do the right thing for sparc64. Last > I heard, the tree compiles with it. It didn?t boot, but at the time gcc-compiled > kernels didn?t boot either. I?m not sure how this status has moved through time. > It would be best to ask Marius Strobl, since he?s the only one committing > to sparc64 sub-tree lately non-global-sweep cleanups. Err, I'm sorry to say but pretty much all of these statements are wrong or at least don't reflect reality properly. As for clang, initial support for 64-bit SPARC v9 and FreeBSD/sparc64 was added in the late 3.5.x times (I don't remember the exact version offhand). Yes, it does compile FreeBSD userland but the majority of binaries do not work or put differently: For some strange reason a clang compiled sort(1) doesn't crash _and_ apparently does the right thing but I wasn't able to find any other program that worked correctly when compiled with clang. By installing clang-compiled system libraries one even totally hoses ones system, i. e. then also sort(1) instantly crashes. With clang 3.6.0 that got even worse; the front-end was changed to select soft-float by default but the back-end didn't have support for choosing between hard- and soft-float for 64-bit SPARC v9 so every compiler invocation just bailed out. As a side note: I couldn't spot any code that would suggest that hard-float support is implemented, which should be the actual default, though. I fixed that (the soft- float defaulting that is, not implementing hard-float support) and some other astonishing bugs (or rather: hacked some things into shape), which got some more things working and IIRC even a clang- compiled kernel got considerably further. However, I didn't get anywhere near the bottom of bugs and missing features. Generally, clang on sparc64 gives more of an impression that it never has faced a compiler test-suite. I haven't given clang 3.7.0 a try thus far but the release notes and source changes don't suggest much has improved in that regard since then. Also, for me a toolchain is just what the name implies: A tool. If it isn't sufficiently close to 100 % working I just use another one. Regarding GCC-compiled kernles not working on sparc64 at that point I'm not aware of such a problem in that time frame or generally of a sparc64-specific breakage in the last couple of years (there was one in userland a couple of months ago, though). I mean, sure, the kernel build gets broken regularly as people don't even compile-test their changes and sometimes that also results in run-time problems but that certainly isn't what you are referring to. However, I can't think of a sparc64 kernel breakage that got beyond that or even was sparc64-specific. What you _might_ be thinking of in that regard is the following: When 64-bit SPARC v9 and FreeBSD/sparc64 support initially were added, clang couldn't cope with code in the sparc64 pcpu.h. There was a patch by jmg@ floating around which changed pcpu.h so that clang could compile a kernel. However, that patch conceptually is wrong and results in a non-working kernel even with GCC. Meanwhile, clang has been taught to grok at least the code in pcpu.h (but not generally to deal with the pattern in question), so at least that situation has improved and said patch is obsolete. As for getting forward, the FreeBSD Software License Policy (https://www.freebsd.org/internal/software-license.html) specifically allows for existing GPLv2 licensed software in the FreeBSD source tree to be updated to GPLv3 licensed one. The initial, longer draft of this policy posted by brooks@ to developers@ even explicitly mentioned key technologies such as toolchains of other licenses being allowed when no mature BSD-licensed alternative exists. So I propose just that: Let's upgrade binutils and GCC in base to recent versions. Seriously. That way we 1) don't need to get external toolchain support into shape, 2) don't need to solve the chicken-and-egg problem of getting a toolchain onto a machine installed from a distribution built with an external toolchain and 3) once clang becomes mature on additional architectures, we have an upgrade path. Don't get me wrong, I'm only proposing that for !arm and !x86. As a side note: A while back I talked to grehan@ and marcel@ regarding the immaturities of clang and - as expected -, a GPL'ed toolchain just is no problem for either NetApp or Juniper as the binaries they ship don't include the toolchain itself. With the possible exception of the current incarnation of SCO which apparently sells a FreeBSD-based OS likely having a system compiler, for the same reason I can't think of why a GPLv3 licensed toolchain would matter for any of the commercial downstream consumers of FreeBSD. Thus, I really can't understand all that aggression regarding making FreeBSD 11 clang-only. > Here?s a breakdown of commits in different parts of sys. The ?Marius? column > is for commits Marius has made in sparc64 only. The rest are the different > architectures we currently support. I wrote this with mail.app, so formatting > may be dicy. > > Year Marius sparc64 mips arm powerpc i386 amd64 x86 arm64 > 2015 5 32 164 445 144 168 247 109 168 > 2014 0 39 117 672 98 125 296 108 - > 2013 14 65 235 455 217 142 235 67 - > 2012 24 55 272 343 152 188 221 76 - > 2011 78 131 205 105 172 189 182 56 - > 2010 75 127 501 103 211 274 268 75 - > 2009 58 95 269 193 137 293 258 - - > 2008 65 109 65 167 161 304 222 - - > > sparc64 rate of change has fallen way off since 2011, both in terms of the > number of commits, as well as the share of commits relative to other > platforms. While I know that not all commits are treated equally, and that > different commit styles in different parts of the tree may skew things, Not only because of that incomplete last sentence it remains unclear what you exactly would like to express with that numbers. There are quite a few reasons why they look the way they do, though. First off, FreeBSD/sparc64 is rock-solid, comparable to x86 in that regard, so it just doesn't need constant changing. Moreover, for a fair comparison you'd generally need to filter f. e. board and peripheral support from sys/arm and sys/mips as sys/sparc64 doesn't have something like the former and drivers for MACs, USB controllers etc. and even the uart(4) bus front-ends live in sys/dev for sparc64. Similarly, you'd need to exclude bhyve- and XEN-related commits from sys/{amd64,i386,x86}. As a side note: Sure, sparc64 isn't exactly en par with x86 when it comes to feature parity. However, IMO overall sparc64 competes rather well with arm and mips in that regard or actually is somewhat better. For example, neither arm nor mips have been converted to NEW_PCIB nor do they provide GET_STACK_USAGE while sparc64 has both. However, one reason certainly also is that some time ago I've decided that I had spent enough money on hardware for working on FreeBSD that I'd otherwise would not have bought (which mainly was sparc64 gear but certainly not limited to that) and rely on donations instead. That didn't turn out to work too well, though. A general problem in that regard are shipping costs and taxes when stuff is located outside the Schengen Area. Also, I've f. e. applied for the M5000 and T2000 machines that where up for donation last August in order to complete/ add support for newer CPUs (support for SPARC64-VI/VII and peripherals in models based on them is mostly there but disabled as I couldn't test it). Unfortunately, I haven't heard anything back regarding these machines. However, that also means: Whoever got that equipment could justify even better use than me, although I could point to the code I had written for that gear. > > I have asked around for help getting the Sparc64 qemu-bsd-user binary > > working so I could at a minimum build packages, and I have gotten no > > feedback from folks. So the only option here is to resurrect sparc64 > > machines somewhere and start up builds on real hardware. It would be more tempting to look at that if the 64-bit SPARC v9 support of QEMU generally would be up to speed but it isn't for years. QEMU seemed to have made some progress in that regard in current versions but it still just isn't there, yet; see the recent attempts on freebsd-sparc64@ to get some of the bugs fixed. That isn't a SPARC-specific lack of interest or problem, though. At work I do microkernel-based R&D on ARM and for that QEMU just isn't usable either; it considerably lacks emulation of viable, real ARMv7-based boards, specifically Cortex-A7-based ones, its GIC emulation is foobar etc. Not that it would help me anything, but QEMU doesn't even provide targets of something as popular as the Raspberry Pi boards. Go figure. As for sun4u system emulation, Simics worked okay for me. That was before Wind River bought it, though. Regarding real sun4u hardware, over time a considerable number of machines has been donated for ports work AFAICT. > > Let's just call it what it is, a dead end of the technology tree. > > I move that we do NOT produce 11.0 versions for Sparc64 and it should be > > dropped from the tree. > > I concur. I think sparc64 has had a nice run, but it?s time to recognize > that the run is nearing its end. > Do whatever you want, I'm tired of mere political arguments and of fighting against them. Marius From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sun Nov 8 16:02:18 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DC24A29E94 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:02:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5659152A for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:02:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id E48B4A29E92; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:02:17 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3EF8A29E91; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:02:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: from alchemy.franken.de (alchemy.franken.de [194.94.249.214]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "alchemy.franken.de", Issuer "alchemy.franken.de" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75A681527; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:02:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: from alchemy.franken.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alchemy.franken.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/ALCHEMY.FRANKEN.DE) with ESMTPS id tA8G2EwZ049793 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:02:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: (from marius@localhost) by alchemy.franken.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id tA8G2EtP049792; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:02:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from marius) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:02:14 +0100 From: Marius Strobl To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Warner Losh , sbruno@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch , sparc64@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <20151108160214.GA31931@alchemy.franken.de> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <93593.1446679609@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <93593.1446679609@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (alchemy.franken.de [0.0.0.0]); Sun, 08 Nov 2015 17:02:14 +0100 (CET) X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 16:02:18 -0000 On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 11:26:49PM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > -------- > In message <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com>, Warner Losh write > s: > > >I concur. I think sparc64 has had a nice run, but it's time to > >recognize that the run is nearing its end. > > The main reason we wantd to have sparc64 in the fold was that it > was the opposite sex than i386, and thus helped find endianess bugs. > > The secondary reason was that it was 64 bit vs. i386's 32 bit. > Maybe that was the original motivation. However, in my perception, the main benefit of sparc64 for the entire tree over the last couple of years was to be a real magnet for alignment bugs in MI code, mainly network related things (with powerpc/powerpc64 being second place in that regard). It did that job so well that I repeatedly wondered myself: Who on earth actually is using arm and mips? I mean, sure, Juniper has its own IP stack but f. e. at the time alignment bugs in netgraph(4) got reported on sparc64, I really would have expected at least some people to use a MIPS-based router board for running a PPPoE session in order to terminate their DSL lines. That's even true as of today; f. e., there are still alignment bugs left to be fixed in dummynet(4) (which apparently has been written without platforms with strict alignment requirements in mind and, thus, is somewhat a PITA to properly fix). These bugs get reported for sparc64 from time to time but I've never seen a single one in the context of arm, mips or powerpc/powerpc64). Marius From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sun Nov 8 16:14:34 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7229A290F8 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:14:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from royce.williams@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A771ACE for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:14:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from royce.williams@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id C3559A290F6; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:14:34 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2CDEA290F5; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:14:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from royce.williams@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-x22d.google.com (mail-ob0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 881B51ACD; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 16:14:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from royce.williams@gmail.com) Received: by obdgf3 with SMTP id gf3so124524682obd.3; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:14:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=PNgfiR/ZqQ7zZjEpAV3utx+2/KlA12EQs6p1CXmu8ac=; b=RDu1H7BUg5BKiMxJjqxkN0XlpRWJtPlGAqr0Q0sPQHVkONoWhsF6FJP/fLnE+giP9Y vHV/5w/mHEAh9o4Onq7/Nf/sc9FYR+01Y75fa+gZp2FNcvhi9k4GwD1J9SqY8l5lbnd7 8ai5JqZl13eolyI3dxDc4n3iVIC2IIUHO61rUOBuvqiT+wkg6va8/uGw0lmkzpyN+A7P ayOQ1zLbrvEQnXDe6OEbpu4vwX/aZpOTYnzq0g8R6j9Wri0mo2qkZXdhmkqMrPYhvBz0 dycm0RbrK9vzzD3uRQl+cQB91T6AaXvz5kSFaj+S8BlFHqWF+76FMjI0gPcs0x+9BTb+ sLIQ== X-Received: by 10.182.102.5 with SMTP id fk5mr14739053obb.38.1446999273793; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:14:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: royce.williams@gmail.com Received: by 10.202.81.215 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 08:14:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> From: Royce Williams Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 07:14:04 -0900 X-Google-Sender-Auth: qOjahWHJf9lez_IwRnbDPJIt-c8 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 To: Marius Strobl Cc: Warner Losh , sbruno@freebsd.org, sparc64@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 16:14:35 -0000 On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 6:55 AM, Marius Strobl wrote: > Over time, linimon@ and me independently tried to get more sparc64 > machines there but failed. As far as I was involved the goal was to > get hardware being offered for donation in the US there but it > turned out that's it's just impossible to coordinate that from over > here. However, I've been told that the primary reason for getting rid > of the collocation at Yahoo is to improve the situation with on-site > maintenance. So getting sparc64 hosts set up it the project cluster > may actually be feasible now. I probably should check with glen@. Take heart, Marius - sparc64 is wanted. I still have this logo on my Ultra 30: http://www.alaska.net/~royce/gfx/the-SPARC-to-serve.jpg If hardware is needed, I would donate to support this. Royce From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sun Nov 8 17:16:57 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63159A29FE5 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:16:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sbruno@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491971282 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:16:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sbruno@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 46A65A29FE3; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:16:57 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C2F9A29FE2; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:16:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sbruno@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.ignoranthack.me (ignoranthack.me [199.102.79.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF81D1281; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:16:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sbruno@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.200.208] (unknown [50.136.155.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: sbruno@ignoranthack.me) by mail.ignoranthack.me (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 83B761934F2; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:16:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 To: Marius Strobl References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> Cc: sparc64@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch From: Sean Bruno X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 09:16:53 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 17:16:57 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 11/08/15 07:55, Marius Strobl wrote: > On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 04:19:38PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: >> >>> On Nov 4, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Sean Bruno >>> wrote: >>> >>> So here's the thing, Sparc64 is *just* barely alive in >>> FreeBSD. >> >> Has anybody actually booted it off a newish tree? > > Yes, just works fine there as of r290419. > > root@v215:~ # uname -a FreeBSD v215.zeist.de 11.0-CURRENT FreeBSD > 11.0-CURRENT #1 r290419: Thu Nov 5 23:01:37 CET 2015 > marius@v215.zeist.de:/tmp/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC sparc64 > >>> There is exactly 1 Sparc64 machine as a ref box being hosted at >>> Yahoo for the project. No new hardware is on the horizon. > > Over time, linimon@ and me independently tried to get more sparc64 > machines there but failed. As far as I was involved the goal was > to get hardware being offered for donation in the US there but it > turned out that's it's just impossible to coordinate that from > over here. However, I've been told that the primary reason for > getting rid of the collocation at Yahoo is to improve the situation > with on-site maintenance. So getting sparc64 hosts set up it the > project cluster may actually be feasible now. I probably should > check with glen@. Right, so ... we *can* go upon Ebay or accept donations of FreeBSD compatible hardware for Sparc64. My impression, is that this hardware is quite old, but there is a large amount of it available. There is no support for newer Sun/Oracle machines as far as I know, and I think that is more interesting than supporting machines that haven't been manufactured in a decade. If I'm wrong here, I welcome corrections. > > Anyway, how many arm, mips, powerpc and powerpc64 reference > machines are there in the project cluster and available for general > use by developers? If there were, what would you do with them? > According to my experience, the very few !x86 machines that > actually are in there aren't really useful without root access. PPC: 2x power8 (donated/supported by Adrian), 1x Apple Xserve. (at ISC) MIPS: something at Sentex, but I have no knowledge. ARMv6: none, AFAIK ARMv8 (aarch64): Thunder-X at Sentex Support for mips, mips64, armv6 and armv8 are being provided via emulation. Packages are being build in a similar method. Developers on these architectures don't actually need real hardware, they can either use full system emulation or construct an emulated assisted jail via qemu-user mode. For personal use, there are many, *many* Atheros MIPS routers that can be used for development. The EdgeRouter Lite is a very good MIPS64 target. The RPi and BeagleBone Black are excellent ARMv6 targets that are fully supported with packages and releases. Sparc64 machines can be trivially acquired via Ebay. > >>> None of the newer Sparc64 processors have been tested to work >>> on FreeBSD and nobody is clamoring to get them working. > > Unlike x86, sun4u and sun4v CPUs are only designed to be backwards > compatible as far as the userland is concerned, > host-PCI{,e}-bridges aren't compatible etc. So the kernel side > always needs work and it simply isn't a matter of "testing" newer > CPUs and models to work. Thus, the hardware is needed for > developing support, see also below. > > I'm not sure at which point I'd speak of people "clamoring" for > support of some hardware; f. e. there also isn't a request for the > graphics of Haswell and later Intel CPUs to be supported on the > mailing lists every other day but you'll certainly agree that many > are waiting for it. Now there likely are fewer people looking > forward for later sun4u and sun4v processors getting supported but > there definitely are people asking for it, just have a look at the > lists. > Now is the time for those users/people to step up and "clamor" for it. The example of Haswell graphics is a good point. There is an active developer working on the support with instructions on how to use the test branch in github. We don't have an equivalent project ongoing for the Sparc64 target AFAIK. I welcome being proven wrong here. >>> We're moving into a post-gcc base system now, and sparc64 is >>> the obvious "odd arch" here. There's activity to get MIPS >>> moved to clang and active work to get powerpc moved fully to >>> clang. Leaving Sparc64 in base, requires someone to either >>> make clang DTRT or keep gcc 4.2.1-ish alive. > > I don't see why sparc64 would be "the obvious odd arch" in that > regard. The real problem is switching an architecture for which > clang might have gotten en par with GCC after clang was changed to > require C++11 for bootstrap. Given that clang was only the default > on arm and x86 at that point in time, we are now stuck without an > in-tree upgrade path on all other architectures. Granted, that > might be lesser a problem on mips as these machines typically don't > have enough CPU and RAM that self-hosting would be interesting in > the first place. That still puts sparc64 into the same boat as > powerpc and powerpc64, though. It's "obvious" to me from reading mailing lists and IRC chatter. This is a poor justification on my part as it requires participating in these to see the "obviousness" of the argument. I am personally pursuing clang enabled MIPS builds. Others are moving the MIPS target to enable support for gcc from ports. Powerpc developers have been working on clang and the clang intree is built and installed in the powerpc images. From my impression, there hasn't been a similar push intree to do the same type of things for the Sparc64 target. Am I wrong here? > >> There was some work to get clang to do the right thing for >> sparc64. Last I heard, the tree compiles with it. It didn?t boot, >> but at the time gcc-compiled kernels didn?t boot either. I?m not >> sure how this status has moved through time. It would be best to >> ask Marius Strobl, since he?s the only one committing to sparc64 >> sub-tree lately non-global-sweep cleanups. > > Err, I'm sorry to say but pretty much all of these statements are > wrong or at least don't reflect reality properly. As for clang, > initial support for 64-bit SPARC v9 and FreeBSD/sparc64 was added > in the late 3.5.x times (I don't remember the exact version > offhand). Yes, it does compile FreeBSD userland but the majority > of binaries do not work or put differently: For some strange reason > a clang compiled sort(1) doesn't crash _and_ apparently does the > right thing but I wasn't able to find any other program that worked > correctly when compiled with clang. By installing clang-compiled > system libraries one even totally hoses ones system, i. e. then > also sort(1) instantly crashes. With clang 3.6.0 that got even > worse; the front-end was changed to select soft-float by default > but the back-end didn't have support for choosing between hard- and > soft-float for 64-bit SPARC v9 so every compiler invocation just > bailed out. As a side note: I couldn't spot any code that would > suggest that hard-float support is implemented, which should be the > actual default, though. I fixed that (the soft- float defaulting > that is, not implementing hard-float support) and some other > astonishing bugs (or rather: hacked some things into shape), which > got some more things working and IIRC even a clang- compiled kernel > got considerably further. However, I didn't get anywhere near the > bottom of bugs and missing features. Generally, clang on sparc64 > gives more of an impression that it never has faced a compiler > test-suite. I haven't given clang 3.7.0 a try thus far but the > release notes and source changes don't suggest much has improved in > that regard since then. Also, for me a toolchain is just what the > name implies: A tool. If it isn't sufficiently close to 100 % > working I just use another one. > > Regarding GCC-compiled kernles not working on sparc64 at that > point I'm not aware of such a problem in that time frame or > generally of a sparc64-specific breakage in the last couple of > years (there was one in userland a couple of months ago, though). I > mean, sure, the kernel build gets broken regularly as people don't > even compile-test their changes and sometimes that also results in > run-time problems but that certainly isn't what you are referring > to. However, I can't think of a sparc64 kernel breakage that got > beyond that or even was sparc64-specific. What you _might_ be > thinking of in that regard is the following: When 64-bit SPARC v9 > and FreeBSD/sparc64 support initially were added, clang couldn't > cope with code in the sparc64 pcpu.h. There was a patch by jmg@ > floating around which changed pcpu.h so that clang could compile a > kernel. However, that patch conceptually is wrong and results in a > non-working kernel even with GCC. Meanwhile, clang has been taught > to grok at least the code in pcpu.h (but not generally to deal with > the pattern in question), so at least that situation has improved > and said patch is obsolete. > > As for getting forward, the FreeBSD Software License Policy > (https://www.freebsd.org/internal/software-license.html) > specifically allows for existing GPLv2 licensed software in the > FreeBSD source tree to be updated to GPLv3 licensed one. The > initial, longer draft of this policy posted by brooks@ to > developers@ even explicitly mentioned key technologies such as > toolchains of other licenses being allowed when no mature > BSD-licensed alternative exists. So I propose just that: Let's > upgrade binutils and GCC in base to recent versions. Seriously. > That way we 1) don't need to get external toolchain support into > shape, 2) don't need to solve the chicken-and-egg problem of > getting a toolchain onto a machine installed from a distribution > built with an external toolchain and 3) once clang becomes mature > on additional architectures, we have an upgrade path. Don't get me > wrong, I'm only proposing that for !arm and !x86. I'm totally behind this. binutils is so busted and old that this would definitely make my MIPS work much easier. I'm not a binutils maintainer and I'm super confused, since this policy exists, as to why it has not been done yet. > As a side note: A while back I talked to grehan@ and marcel@ > regarding the immaturities of clang and - as expected -, a GPL'ed > toolchain just is no problem for either NetApp or Juniper as the > binaries they ship don't include the toolchain itself. With the > possible exception of the current incarnation of SCO which > apparently sells a FreeBSD-based OS likely having a system > compiler, for the same reason I can't think of why a GPLv3 licensed > toolchain would matter for any of the commercial downstream > consumers of FreeBSD. Thus, I really can't understand all that > aggression regarding making FreeBSD 11 clang-only. > I don't like a mono-culture of toolchains. I don't want to leave unsupported tools and compilers in our system and I see no reason why we shouldn't being considering updating gcc/binutils if it is allowable. sean -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQF8BAEBCgBmBQJWP4OCXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRCQUFENDYzMkU3MTIxREU4RDIwOTk3REQx MjAxRUZDQTFFNzI3RTY0AAoJEBIB78oecn5kVLoH/1KeEXLlUAcfe0hGe8A+reXM tlPj19TnXzVEXMJdk3toWv2Do0E4aicZEaHWkIuGyyX24rOgToMPZo72WozHO5KF ZiBCA74mybTkD+yIQ4EnwgABP9ydN5xhNWWRC5Wk0LGvIzgpr8h333zy/vZAftRM +YarUykE7GGVcWzpkbU6n+TOGPQLWIZOaaUXw1Ue/tQzj5wI128bci9fkHLnhCYu 39btB+cj4pqrwmiVcBLAc9OGJSpKJzAsNVEL7OL0LTiDinT4etRvGLtfZ00mgahw FfRt1Rj6cBF2HSoUf7MOYgTfDTY/b4mmro9WnuzHAfd+dXxYKWSmM8QjPyrSE6M= =M0KX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sun Nov 8 17:31:54 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A95A29393 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:31:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025961A15 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:31:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 01DD0A29390; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:31:54 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01465A2938F; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:31:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io0-x231.google.com (mail-io0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C18831A13; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:31:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by iodd200 with SMTP id d200so166139058iod.0; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 09:31:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=NgkmwYWB+xUD3pBAZuoOzAfnopeAmqo3jKwZPNS1yfg=; b=PHWx1q0kUy+/pYRJcn/1H6qNwWTy/a4Lctn+fpZPV8qEQF7eh1274Nqh2ASMSkwUjC ALLIYNyGYAj5CVgqb+ylGaAgoPF2Zj7qSb/y+RO/3daQ+wXN1lNuVS+F3cdjv93vwaEC ozfHkQ31hsCMq1L/ev+zbcRMoeBS1U1PqAp07lBLyun5+1x5mbxh0rOoffh661egyW7r j9c4MTsd/dh9VjcvVwHrNN6zZlHGRtZTkcFthbMLXEe5STAPt26j6nfBLNafBczOpbyg gKxf9uw/RQvOf1MaK7ETnDrN1nBIJCtjcuCTgQ4blPLfL9EsInv2N4JUzhfpq4kFa6Oz AinA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.46.142 with SMTP id u14mr22574883iou.165.1447003913168; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 09:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.217.196 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 09:31:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 09:31:53 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 From: Adrian Chadd To: Sean Bruno Cc: Marius Strobl , freebsd-arch , sparc64@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 17:31:54 -0000 [snip] I can definitely acquire sparc64 hardware in the bay area if people are actually able/willing to do platform bringup. The challenge is finding people to do the platform bringup work. I can get T2000 class hardware here if people wish to do sun4v bringup again for the more recent hardware generations. I'd like to see it because it means we can rush to > 512 cpus with reasonably (nowish) available hardware. -adrian From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sun Nov 8 17:42:53 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7821A2964C for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:42:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC575102C for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:42:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id A9BD5A29648; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:42:53 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A92AAA29646; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:42:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94922102B; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:42:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from FreeBSD.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09FF18EB; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:42:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:42:09 +0000 From: Glen Barber To: Marius Strobl Cc: Warner Losh , sbruno@freebsd.org, sparc64@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <20151108174209.GA1592@FreeBSD.org> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="J/dobhs11T7y2rNN" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT amd64 X-SCUD-Definition: Sudden Completely Unexpected Dataloss X-SULE-Definition: Sudden Unexpected Learning Event X-PEKBAC-Definition: Problem Exists, Keyboard Between Admin/Computer User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 17:42:54 -0000 --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 08, 2015 at 04:55:01PM +0100, Marius Strobl wrote: > On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 04:19:38PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Nov 4, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Sean Bruno wrote: > Over time, linimon@ and me independently tried to get more sparc64 > machines there but failed. As far as I was involved the goal was to > get hardware being offered for donation in the US there but it > turned out that's it's just impossible to coordinate that from over > here. However, I've been told that the primary reason for getting rid > of the collocation at Yahoo is to improve the situation with on-site > maintenance. So getting sparc64 hosts set up it the project cluster > may actually be feasible now. I probably should check with glen@. >=20 > Anyway, how many arm, mips, powerpc and powerpc64 reference machines > are there in the project cluster and available for general use by > developers? Unfortunately, zero arm and mips. We have three powerpc machines (that I know of) being relocated from ISC to another colocation facility, but I am not entirely certain which are powerpc or powerpc64, so cannot give exact numbers. Glen --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWP4lxAAoJEAMUWKVHj+KTLqwP/3CI85+Hof8L03Sjc91bgYEv CLEh0EdikhY6tkwXxxRl2JD0iwwUDRO7Jb3aZhJdhboQOZiqdVoMjJt8Upxyz4RO SuhBAQcGPB2rN+JMEoSIRuntPTRK4izD+pjXeIRjmph647hslTMm1aIrmw+oLMQa CG0MuCYfGKlR2FzOwELSMcP7Q45Ycy0b/6/bMVN0mpe9IKwxXyikkJI3OxbwQj0q +FOb6ara8VpS1ZWPJ6TZ5z7zla/90MmLRnYvw5yJDD9352NyuLFrLey/KoIh7XYt 4w5/Q5kGu08eNbWES2rQo5u3ju/XZy8MgR4rkXwKvP0oWTuydwKmeWbW5waSImsb w091GegI7Uj+MuER7pKicyr/AQ2rWUTW6ZFKP8tkqpKqFQZRymY29Z9+n9Fb8z6N BgzH5XW7q77sOs93OCrnneyiVec013LdDdYyxYO2OEHeK0Co/ATpLH1Te6NW3/Uy 6eiHvM72D2k9QHlixtuzdWkYbm7GpOYtZfq1hEnlXXZQrdFfkiWPhj5hV3ZidG7z BYFIC9iiid1XTZSwgyKBuR6+zAB+ahDk9H3SLFHyt9WG10OcFSDsWDdmswMMFmHl hhIoBIYaj9FgFZUXIrH5TK08OOgeWqtl/6Jjn+3YbvTfn6bem/vmBhkhp0dL3o0z ms6Qi4JWyUr0qP/LB24z =xjvu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN-- From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sun Nov 8 17:55:05 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EEF7A29920 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:55:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mark.cave-ayland@ilande.co.uk) Received: from s16892447.onlinehome-server.info (s16892447.onlinehome-server.info [82.165.15.123]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEF631431; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:55:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mark.cave-ayland@ilande.co.uk) Received: from host86-136-43-231.range86-136.btcentralplus.com ([86.136.43.231] helo=[192.168.1.65]) by s16892447.onlinehome-server.info with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvTpd-0002Qz-10; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 17:32:48 +0000 Message-ID: <563F8722.9050503@ilande.co.uk> Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 17:32:18 +0000 From: Mark Cave-Ayland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marius Strobl CC: Alexey Dokuchaev , "freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org" References: <20150913180126.GC7862@alchemy.franken.de> <55F89861.1030107@ilande.co.uk> <20150916031030.GA6711@FreeBSD.org> <55F9C2B8.7030605@ilande.co.uk> <20150916211914.GD18789@alchemy.franken.de> <20150917082817.GA71811@FreeBSD.org> <55FBB662.4080708@ilande.co.uk> <20150919211420.GK18789@alchemy.franken.de> <55FDEA3C.1010804@ilande.co.uk> <20150920043630.GA36162@FreeBSD.org> <20150922221404.GA81100@alchemy.franken.de> In-Reply-To: <20150922221404.GA81100@alchemy.franken.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 86.136.43.231 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mark.cave-ayland@ilande.co.uk Subject: Re: PCI range checking under qemu-system-sparc64 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:45:44 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on s16892447.onlinehome-server.info); Unknown failure X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 17:55:05 -0000 On 22/09/15 23:14, Marius Strobl wrote: Hi Marius, I know it has been a while, fortunately I'm starting to get some more time to look at this once again. > On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 04:36:31AM +0000, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: >> On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 12:05:32AM +0100, Mark Cave-Ayland wrote: >>> [...] >>> While I don't have any insight on the CPU tick interrupt yet, my initial >>> feeling is that the ATA hang could be related to the PCI interrupt >>> clearing issue that I started looking into a while back. Although it >>> isn't a complete fix, does the attached patch against QEMU help at all? >> >> Did not help; putting back "device scbus+da+cd" hangs with patched QEMU. >> > > Actually, it does make a bit of a difference; with a QEMU 2.4.0 > built with apb-no-clear.patch applied the number of interrupts > seen for the emulated CMD646U2 at the point of the hang decreases > from reliably 5 to reliably 4. Now whether that is a relevant > functional change or what's the appropriate number of interrupts > at that point in time I don't know, though. > > I tried to look into the tick interrupt problem, as that seems > more relevant. Apparently, writes to %tick and %tick_cmpr are > hooked up to cpu_tick_set_count() and cpu_tick_set_limit() (in > hw/sparc64/sun4u.c) respectively in target-sparc/translate.c > by a detour via target-sparc/helper.c. Likewise for %{h,}stick > and %{h,}stick_cpmr. So at first I just enabled DEBUG_TIMER, > which yields: > marius@enigma:/home/marius > qemu-system-sparc64 -nographic -cdrom FreeBSD-11.0-CURRENT-sparc64-bootonly.iso -boot d > TIMER: tick set_limit limit=0x0000000000000000 (disabled) p=0x803a29810 called with limit=0x8000000000000000 at 0x0000000000004c97 (delta=0x0000000000000000) > TIMER: tick set_limit limit=ZERO - not starting timer > TIMER: tick get_count count=0x000000000005df82 (disabled) p=0x803a29810 > TIMER: tick set_limit limit=0x00000000001521c2 (enabled) p=0x803a29810 called with limit=0x00000000001521c2 at 0x000000000005e0e9 (delta=0x00000000000f40d8) > OpenBIOS for Sparc64 > <...> > > The first invocation of cpu_tick_set_count() is here: > TIMER: tick set_count count=0x0000000000000000 (enabled) p=0x803a29810 > TIMER: tick set_limit limit=0x0000000000000000 (disabled) p=0x803a29810 called with limit=0x8000000000000000 at 0x0000000000000e73 (delta=0x0000000000000000) > TIMER: tick set_limit limit=ZERO - not starting timer > GDB: no debug ports present > KDB: debugger backends: ddb > KDB: current backend: ddb > Copyright (c) 1992-2015 The FreeBSD Project. > > I don't know where that write to %tick is coming from but it's not > performed by either the FreeBSD loader or kernel. I've traced this through using QEMU's gdbstub and the first write to %tick is coming from tick_clear() which is called from sparc64_init(). > However, the write > to %tick_cmpr seems right as we do a `wrpr (1L << 63), 0, %tick_cmpr` > very early in the kernel in order to prevent foot-shooting from > firmware variants that leave the tick counter enabled. Yes, that seems to be the subsequent call to tick_stop() just after the call to tick_clear(). > There's no other call of cpu_tick_set_count() but the next one to > cpu_tick_set_limit() is when the kernel enables the tick counter: > Timecounter "tick" frequency 100000000 Hz quality 1000 > TIMER: tick get_count count=0x0000000006ead320 (disabled) p=0x803a29810 > TIMER: tick get_count count=0x0000000006ead7da (disabled) p=0x803a29810 > Event timer "tick" frequency 100000000 Hz quality 1000 > TIMER: tick get_count count=0x0000000006ec9b12 (disabled) p=0x803a29810 > TIMER: tick set_limit limit=0x0000000006ed5e61 (disabled) p=0x803a29810 called with limit=0x8000000006ed5e61 at 0x0000000006eca6e5 (delta=0x000000000000b77b) > TIMER: (null) disabled > Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec^M^M > > The "called with limit=0x8000000006ed5e61" is a plain lie! We > simply do not set (1L << 63) when writing the future tick value > to %tick_cmpr for the tick interrupt to go off. Stepping this through I can see the problem is caused as an accidental side-effect of the existing QEMU timer code. What happens is that in tick_et_start() the existing %tick value is used as a base before being written to %tick_cmpr - but since the timer is internally marked as disabled then QEMU's cpu_tick_get_count() sets (1L << 63) which is wrong. In other words, this is a side-effect of the same timer bug you already found. > So I tried with > a hack to cpu_tick_set_limit(): > void cpu_tick_set_limit(CPUTimer *timer, uint64_t limit) > { > int64_t now = qemu_clock_get_ns(QEMU_CLOCK_VIRTUAL); > > uint64_t real_limit = limit & ~timer->disabled_mask; > timer->disabled = (limit & timer->disabled_mask) ? 1 : 0; > timer->disabled = limit == 0; > > Not that this shouldn't make any difference as it just special- > cases the fact that apart from (1L << 63), FreeBSD writes a 0 > value to %tick_cmpr for disabling the tick interrupt. Moreover, > limit == 0 implies that (1L << 63) isn't set either, so if the > kernel really would set (1L << 63) in the case in question, > this change shouldn't cause a difference in behavior, but it > in fact it does: > Timecounter "tick" frequency 100000000 Hz quality 1000 > Event timer "tick" frequency 100000000 Hz quality 1000 > Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec > IPsec: Initialized Security Association Processing. > cd0 at ata3 bus 0 scbus1 target 0 lun 0 > cd0: Removable CD-ROM SCSI device > cd0: Serial Number QM00003 > cd0: 13.300MB/s transfers (WDMA1, ATAPI 12bytes, PIO 65534bytes) > cd0: cd present [103200 x 2048 byte records] > WARNING: WITNESS option enabled, expect reduced performance. > Trying to mount root from cd9660:/dev/iso9660/11_0_CURRENT_SPARC64_BO [ro]... > [ thread pid 1 tid 100002 ] > Stopped at tl1_trap+0x24: stx %o0, [%sp + 0x997] > db> > > So apparently (1L << 63) in %tick_cmpr somehow is sticky > within QEMU but I didn't manage to spot a bug in that > regard. There actually are several obvious bugs in QEMU > when it comes to %{hs,s,}tick and %{hs,s,}tick_cmpr > handling, though. First off, both cpu_tick_set_count() > and cpu_tick_set_limit() test for the disabled_mask being > set in the value written to the register in question. > This is wrong as only the %{s,}tick_cmpr registers have > (1L << 63) as disable bit, in %{s,}tick (1L << 63) serves > as NPT (Non-Privilege Trap) bit. The NPT bit causes an > unprivileged read of %{s,}tick to trap when set (with > real hardware that is). QEMU seems to re-invent and > side-step that logic via CONFIG_USER_ONLY. I don't have > documentation for %hstick and %hstick_cmpr at hand but > they likely work the same way. Moreover, cpu_devinit() > in hw/sparc64/sun4u.c seems to totally confuse NPT > and disable bit in the first place: > env->tick = cpu_timer_create("tick", cpu, tick_irq, > tick_frequency, TICK_NPT_MASK); > > env->stick = cpu_timer_create("stick", cpu, stick_irq, > stick_frequency, TICK_INT_DIS); > > env->hstick = cpu_timer_create("hstick", cpu, hstick_irq, > hstick_frequency, TICK_INT_DIS); > > Depending on what "disabled" is supposed to mean, that > should be either all TICK_INT_DIS or all TICK_NPT_MASK, > but certainly not mixed. > > As for the panic I get with my hack applied, the back- > trace is: > Trying to mount root from cd9660:/dev/iso9660/11_0_CURRENT_SPARC64_BO [ro]... > [ thread pid 1 tid 100002 ] > Stopped at tl1_trap+0x24: stx %o0, [%sp + 0x997] > db> bt > Tracing pid 1 tid 100002 td 0xfffff800015e84d0 > KDB: reentering > KDB: stack backtrace: > kdb_reenter() at kdb_reenter+0x5c > trap() at trap+0x2fc > -- kernel stack fault %o7=0xc0570d40 -- > sched_clock() at sched_clock+0x94 > KDB: reentering > KDB: stack backtrace: > kdb_reenter() at kdb_reenter+0x5c > trap() at trap+0x2fc > -- kernel stack fault %o7=0xc011a050 -- > db_read_bytes() at db_read_bytes+0x44 > KDB: reentering > KDB: stack backtrace: > kdb_reenter() at kdb_reenter+0x5c > trap() at trap+0x2fc > -- kernel stack fault %o7=0xc011a050 -- > db_read_bytes() at db_read_bytes+0x44 > KDB: reentering > KDB: stack backtrace: > kdb_reenter() at kdb_reenter+0x5c > trap() at trap+0x2fc > -- kernel stack fault %o7=0xc011a050 -- > db_read_bytes() at db_read_bytes+0x44 > > > So this is a trap while inside the kernel and a > seemingly serious stack corruption. I have no idea > how to even debug QEMU in that regard or where to > start looking for that bug in QEMU. However, as > long as the bug of (1L << 63) being corrupted in > %tick_cmpr isn't fixed, i. e. its cause unknown, > it likely also doesn't make much sense to dig > further into that stack corruption. I now have a small patchset for QEMU git master that fixes the timer issues (as well as implementing the NPT bit properly) and it gets to the same point as you did above, so that's progress :) QEMU is currently in freeze in preparation for the next release, so while the timer work won't be there for 2.5 in the meantime I shall tidy them up and push to github. I should add that the ebus enumeration patches related to the device tree properties (minus the addition of the keyboard device that crashes Linux) are already upstream and will appear in 2.5. > Err, what operating systems is qemu-system-sparc64 > already able to successfully host again? :) Apparently most of all the others ;) Thanks again for all your pointers and the time you've put into this so far - I'm sure there will be more questions coming this way soon... ATB, Mark. From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sun Nov 8 18:43:41 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83BFDA29638; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 18:43:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) Received: from hades.sorbs.net (mail.sorbs.net [67.231.146.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4541F75; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 18:43:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from isux.com (firewall.isux.com [213.165.190.213]) by hades.sorbs.net (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.29.0 64bit (built Jul 9 2013)) with ESMTPSA id <0NXI0079ZC7CQT00@hades.sorbs.net>; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 09:50:02 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <563F89C3.8050007@sorbs.net> Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 18:43:31 +0100 From: Michelle Sullivan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.24) Gecko/20100301 SeaMonkey/1.1.19 To: Sean Bruno Cc: alexmcwhirter@triadic.us, freebsd-sparc64 , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <20151104214451.GF47630@server.rulingia.com> <20151105232431.GE31432@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net> <6189d48d3a178c4ebf501361c75de23f@triadic.us> <563CB6FC.209@freebsd.org> In-reply-to: <563CB6FC.209@freebsd.org> X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 18:43:41 -0000 Sean Bruno wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > > > On 11/06/15 01:18, alexmcwhirter@triadic.us wrote: > >> So is the problem in question the lack of being able to use >> clang/llvm? Or that newer hardware is unsupported? sparc64 supports >> sun4u which is most boxes, Fujitsu Sparc64 boxes also work quite >> well. The only thing really missing is sun4v and a few drivers here >> and there. OpenBSD has support for almost all of the newer >> Sun/Oracle boxes, which shouldn't bee too hard to port over. >> >> http://www.openbsd.org/sparc64.html >> >> Because of the lack of sun4v support i have moved over to a custom >> illumos distro, but one of the things im working on there is to >> replace gcc with clang/llvm. If it means saving the sparc64 port i >> will gladly move some of my work over to freebsd. >> > > problem 1. the base clang/llvm doesn't support the FreeBSD sparc64 > target. This needs work, and hey, if someone wants to spend the time > to get things working, great. Let's move on it and modernize the target. > > problem 2. lack of development hardware in the FreeBSD project. I'm > not asking for people to buy the FreeBSD project 10-15 year old sparc > hardware and send it to us. We don't want it. If there is a push to > modernize support for Sparc machines, we can talk about aquiring new > machines and racking them up as reference boxes. If there are people > interested in modernizing CPU support, by all means, move forward and > do it. Don't let me stop you. > I would like to see it continue on sun4u, as I still have a load of sun4u boxes - quite capable boxes - and some that people can develop on if you want (I cannot code myself on Sun except for generic stuff in C so I'd not be much help on that front.) Michelle -- Michelle Sullivan http://www.mhix.org/ From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sun Nov 8 20:46:24 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAF38A29611 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 20:46:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chmeeedalf@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B343517CB for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 20:46:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chmeeedalf@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id B25BAA2960E; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 20:46:24 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97EECA2960D; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 20:46:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chmeeedalf@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io0-x236.google.com (mail-io0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BF2F17CA; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 20:46:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chmeeedalf@gmail.com) Received: by ioc74 with SMTP id 74so102561358ioc.2; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 12:46:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=CZJF9kMfHM5d9b0uIwOA0OlOZuGntFzRm1ImZhi8ypA=; b=ge7k61cZz/7kxhsKCHdKUphsKCb3oehg1Vuq+uyb6jeS52ZbkZIyenCjID7M8jaBrv gWxUTSLPWdB71iLB9Rb3og3hTlRaMcgJ5wewrl9tuegA9+TPMWbY7HwGMMpFVxGLwztn iu3krQawWdIMEpMWEx89fJEtMBSpAwNBJ6uo6/7F12t6ICGYxwxCmxg8+Biep+GZ9i4p TINa+sFL2YrHj45slWfq6IeozQZ892KNsP6G2JU77IL+tNlwkeAuQjgbbR3l43rsY3eZ F1kmipRmRWqkWBWqAMAn+uwI+meSdG+cXP5EB4VA51do9gtvIFOf69woP80hCdpierDM vXLw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alumni_cwru_edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=CZJF9kMfHM5d9b0uIwOA0OlOZuGntFzRm1ImZhi8ypA=; b=JurekWZLr5bmTbENn9N9V7AfWeSgQRYR2ZHV8oK2G5Y4XLLJJ86QPQKA3hKMd3QYlm yXvnmFaXXFma35KF/7MZeR2zK4vILKg5AOefNT5qWJ3qp2phOrjyHymTtouBPM80tytO zgynaBKOvmgDoMrLv7A6yV6+V3KwePZOvYVD9JHnUa56mdVRnoBRcZK1JwK7wAQDJE1N YcgraWJWUhcX6n5LEz0ThVHJauzV6M65uIckqiMI4YlZzs1APtWgTAyEVfNH4ZYWOA4+ upobN8dMZc1UIlwulsO0n7blnUglphXIrllvHsvywM33mF9QtLg0mSoeNfC/XXs2Qtdu ncUg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.34.149 with SMTP id i143mr22034860ioi.157.1447015583582; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 12:46:23 -0800 (PST) Sender: chmeeedalf@gmail.com Received: by 10.36.41.138 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 12:46:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 14:46:23 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ixa9KLH6gn8vWlfQjV4UfizTaEU Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 From: Justin Hibbits To: Marius Strobl Cc: Warner Losh , sbruno@freebsd.org, sparc64@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 20:46:24 -0000 On 11/8/15, Marius Strobl wrote: > As for getting forward, the FreeBSD Software License Policy > (https://www.freebsd.org/internal/software-license.html) > specifically allows for existing GPLv2 licensed software in > the FreeBSD source tree to be updated to GPLv3 licensed one. > The initial, longer draft of this policy posted by brooks@ to > developers@ even explicitly mentioned key technologies such > as toolchains of other licenses being allowed when no mature > BSD-licensed alternative exists. So I propose just that: > Let's upgrade binutils and GCC in base to recent versions. > Seriously. That way we 1) don't need to get external toolchain > support into shape, 2) don't need to solve the chicken-and-egg > problem of getting a toolchain onto a machine installed from > a distribution built with an external toolchain and 3) once > clang becomes mature on additional architectures, we have an > upgrade path. Don't get me wrong, I'm only proposing that > for !arm and !x86. > As a side note: A while back I talked to grehan@ and marcel@ > regarding the immaturities of clang and - as expected -, a > GPL'ed toolchain just is no problem for either NetApp or > Juniper as the binaries they ship don't include the toolchain > itself. With the possible exception of the current incarnation > of SCO which apparently sells a FreeBSD-based OS likely having > a system compiler, for the same reason I can't think of why a > GPLv3 licensed toolchain would matter for any of the commercial > downstream consumers of FreeBSD. Thus, I really can't understand > all that aggression regarding making FreeBSD 11 clang-only. > I 100% agree with you on this. If we can update binutils to the latest and greatest, I believe powerpc64 would be able to work with clang. I've backported several patches, with IBM's permission, to binutils for handling new relocations, etc. However, not all patches are straight forward, and currently we're missing something, which is causing odd segfaults in ld(1), when linking as(1). No other binary, only as(1). I've tried looking through it, but the binutils code is a mess. I'm sure the bug that's getting hit was fixed with newer binutils, but have had a very hard time trying to test with it. TL;DR, let's update binutils at the very least, and gcc if it makes sense. We shouldn't be relying on external toolchain for some archs, and internal for others. It completely snubs already second class citizens. Just look at the various build failures we've had because to some people All The World is clang/x86. - Justin From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sun Nov 8 21:43:56 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8540FA29933 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:43:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sbruno@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCD51B5D for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:43:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sbruno@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 68335A29931; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:43:56 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CAA5A29930; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:43:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sbruno@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.ignoranthack.me (ignoranthack.me [199.102.79.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C1291B5A; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:43:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sbruno@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.200.208] (unknown [50.136.155.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: sbruno@ignoranthack.me) by mail.ignoranthack.me (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 01B881934F2; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:43:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 To: Justin Hibbits , Marius Strobl References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> Cc: freebsd-arch , sparc64@freebsd.org From: Sean Bruno Message-ID: <563FC218.6020806@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 13:43:52 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 21:43:56 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 11/08/15 12:46, Justin Hibbits wrote: > On 11/8/15, Marius Strobl wrote: > >> As for getting forward, the FreeBSD Software License Policy >> (https://www.freebsd.org/internal/software-license.html) >> specifically allows for existing GPLv2 licensed software in the >> FreeBSD source tree to be updated to GPLv3 licensed one. The >> initial, longer draft of this policy posted by brooks@ to >> developers@ even explicitly mentioned key technologies such as >> toolchains of other licenses being allowed when no mature >> BSD-licensed alternative exists. So I propose just that: Let's >> upgrade binutils and GCC in base to recent versions. Seriously. >> That way we 1) don't need to get external toolchain support into >> shape, 2) don't need to solve the chicken-and-egg problem of >> getting a toolchain onto a machine installed from a distribution >> built with an external toolchain and 3) once clang becomes mature >> on additional architectures, we have an upgrade path. Don't get >> me wrong, I'm only proposing that for !arm and !x86. As a side >> note: A while back I talked to grehan@ and marcel@ regarding the >> immaturities of clang and - as expected -, a GPL'ed toolchain >> just is no problem for either NetApp or Juniper as the binaries >> they ship don't include the toolchain itself. With the possible >> exception of the current incarnation of SCO which apparently >> sells a FreeBSD-based OS likely having a system compiler, for the >> same reason I can't think of why a GPLv3 licensed toolchain would >> matter for any of the commercial downstream consumers of FreeBSD. >> Thus, I really can't understand all that aggression regarding >> making FreeBSD 11 clang-only. >> > > > I 100% agree with you on this. If we can update binutils to the > latest and greatest, I believe powerpc64 would be able to work > with clang. I've backported several patches, with IBM's > permission, to binutils for handling new relocations, etc. > However, not all patches are straight forward, and currently we're > missing something, which is causing odd segfaults in ld(1), when > linking as(1). No other binary, only as(1). I've tried looking > through it, but the binutils code is a mess. I'm sure the bug > that's getting hit was fixed with newer binutils, but have had a > very hard time trying to test with it. > > TL;DR, let's update binutils at the very least, and gcc if it > makes sense. We shouldn't be relying on external toolchain for > some archs, and internal for others. It completely snubs already > second class citizens. Just look at the various build failures > we've had because to some people All The World is clang/x86. > > - Justin __________ - From IRC earlier, we discussed whether or not the ports for gcc and binutils for various architectures work. Does the binutils and gcc port for sparc64 work (or powerpc)? We know there are issues with MIPS binutils at this time (at least for MIPS64). sean -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQF8BAEBCgBmBQJWP8IVXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRCQUFENDYzMkU3MTIxREU4RDIwOTk3REQx MjAxRUZDQTFFNzI3RTY0AAoJEBIB78oecn5kn8YH/j/pmsYviQXD1gkB12VDVylo ABg7w+fwQOm6oddJrnk26XDqPpBJOVgSNznbbIhKgqEc3b9Q1vVCMbmXp+24YwdX 8sJ0KQiutlMm5AHf5MYTPZqNWQbgAGVOWcYPC/AIM3f8kI/aB0Rp7R1jSZtsg/BK RVUhYi9vQWxexvvuf6ORV28sYf+OcpGsY3b+RFiT4QcOJFazgC+HwzsW4Iq+6puM mJH4air62r8vrvkP4ZXNBvzl+91LC6CjZEJe6rCNiKhx6CNCLeDqjVN1ysLjtpj7 V9En1uM6Ms5+JCY8JN2xrDcgc7y2Mdf7BAC2STYestgAMWI4F79HzyHrJ+NwIy4= =o607 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sun Nov 8 21:45:29 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DC06A299A5 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:45:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0871C4D for ; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:45:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 1C8F6A299A1; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:45:29 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C0E9A2999F; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:45:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x22b.google.com (mail-ig0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB19A1C4B; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:45:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by igcph11 with SMTP id ph11so15705412igc.1; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 13:45:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=sNvzXFfKPNb30GTFXo1wJn7WRbgIgB0R8R4IZIWGXsg=; b=ruIvNlqyfE1LMbEEwlJCIDHE4+NnUDQ40VtK4T8FQAslOVkOSqUmJH7u9jzrh+Netp r0rgqob2N7vXPaPled6yAiJvgdgrC6U8jgu2/JPSqyWvz0IlrWBMmdbIuNiNctIlfi4s PDamoZdk9JJVHH4zPfd/qnA52Tp5eKnL7yKD9xDhC7yFoBzi0bya7Y/mCLpPtEHCW68r M1pG2aWzH9VrECDeDtyh9B08AsN29Gqd5ZuASeZ6c9oepCW9kgH3j7F9bRIW6w1J+Lis 7aupiy4LGhiTH/WV2BtI6CLCJ1G8xKqKpS6XELl4kH02oIh90MPQp15/HXwWrNOarfjO 22vw== X-Received: by 10.50.108.100 with SMTP id hj4mr16636695igb.97.1447019128123; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 13:45:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: carpeddiem@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.158.148 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 13:45:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> From: Ed Maste Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 21:45:08 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 69QemNgGw4-8T4GvrrfXNq9WrIk Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 To: Justin Hibbits Cc: Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , freebsd-arch , sparc64@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2015 21:45:29 -0000 On 8 November 2015 at 20:46, Justin Hibbits wrote: > > I 100% agree with you on this. If we can update binutils to the > latest and greatest, I believe powerpc64 would be able to work with > clang. I've backported several patches, with IBM's permission, to > binutils for handling new relocations, etc. However, not all patches > are straight forward, and currently we're missing something, which is > causing odd segfaults in ld(1), when linking as(1). No other binary, > only as(1). I've tried looking through it, but the binutils code is a > mess. I'm sure the bug that's getting hit was fixed with newer > binutils, but have had a very hard time trying to test with it. We have support in the tree to use an external binutils automatically - we use this on arm64, which is completely unsupported by the in-tree binutils. External binutils is enabled by setting CROSS_BINUTILS_PREFIX=/usr/local/${TARGET_ARCH}-freebsd/bin/ This happens automatically if the target specifies BINUTILS_BOOTSTRAP in BROKEN_OPTIONS -- for example, arm64 sets BROKEN_OPTIONS+=BINUTILS BINUTILS_BOOTSTRAP GCC GCC_BOOTSTRAP GDB I'd suggest that the first step in any of these discussions is to use this to test building with the binutils port. We know it won't work for mips today because upstream bintuils lacks FreeBSD/mips support. It may work for other targets though. Even if it doesn't the same work needs to be done regardless of whether the target uses an up-to-date binutils from ports or from the src tree. From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Mon Nov 9 01:43:41 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 519F3A24557 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 01:43:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2223F19DD for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 01:43:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 22322A24555; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 01:43:41 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07106A24553 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 01:43:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qk0-x22e.google.com (mail-qk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B05F219D7 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 01:43:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by qkcl124 with SMTP id l124so65620068qkc.3 for ; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 17:43:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp_com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=OSNQBoQPTLgp1Q+3vzBiviNOBUqYrZe9FoOE+HUH6B0=; b=vrdFTFNRowl1cmHSEpOYVC/zA/k4XiNDkYUDXYdZt4zJ/UA5+KH+NCdY54o2A1GQnI q3oyDFF3lMI8sGZ4dl4CSNAKriGfddpGUhfK1xBvSGdztkfBMnjBxZ2HlyyP6lUOKepB y8xFBCL2/M8mlSsgH1Qy//I69/b1uZzfnPgJigrXjo8mrjsz5MrhS5Xtcl1Gs/Sf1IEp DgHllNmKeu5XMCZmRib1adwf2RvT8rcj+W+GZ/NbfnvZYkZB1lP2qD74KVs4R8NPVLmT b+vi0iYf8YcRIyA9e0+p4L2ahng2EOGDlBRnZLX3HSLztB49SdHCJboGk+Le8AQJKoCs Xyag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=OSNQBoQPTLgp1Q+3vzBiviNOBUqYrZe9FoOE+HUH6B0=; b=R8cnMHhAcx1blxbaiEwHu7b0rVis98JTq5BaeLUe4bySTjXbh/K1ulNMI66Ha45phl 10Rpd04NhP1aK91O+9RWWG+E4Cv1BJZ2bo12nl/Y+wGFEYBmZT5RyLXnDL3Pw6xwVi6R s6Yy1ohoRE9hiAaf02uaOSM7OZ8Q7deCgTr6StSH90cLnn4d99//shsHWj61eDRBpzSV 7EnTuigIddH+A4o29jSdHXT/XHt1CuAKipylWbPhFRoXo8mKlhwDsQ7qkmjyESKEgGXg wY4cNELj48NxiweRsXQGKOfAYkNgYXDSdfjVuvQ/aeTKm/lNKw7YbDTAG7GL1oTtkTB5 t3oA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlqPu5l1CTacFugR3qLi5r6ZY7VW205qHAceGQasPVo7rrh6kCfSTaizrb0QbYf6PevVv5H MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.55.40.211 with SMTP id o80mr26286524qko.93.1447033419335; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 17:43:39 -0800 (PST) Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.140.27.181 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 17:43:39 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [50.253.99.174] In-Reply-To: References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 18:43:39 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: LjDW_UbRuWn28eleGiK3SVEIdGs Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 From: Warner Losh To: Ed Maste Cc: Justin Hibbits , Sean Bruno , freebsd-arch , sparc64@freebsd.org, Marius Strobl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 01:43:41 -0000 On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Ed Maste wrote: > On 8 November 2015 at 20:46, Justin Hibbits wrote: > > > > I 100% agree with you on this. If we can update binutils to the > > latest and greatest, I believe powerpc64 would be able to work with > > clang. I've backported several patches, with IBM's permission, to > > binutils for handling new relocations, etc. However, not all patches > > are straight forward, and currently we're missing something, which is > > causing odd segfaults in ld(1), when linking as(1). No other binary, > > only as(1). I've tried looking through it, but the binutils code is a > > mess. I'm sure the bug that's getting hit was fixed with newer > > binutils, but have had a very hard time trying to test with it. > > We have support in the tree to use an external binutils automatically > - we use this on arm64, which is completely unsupported by the in-tree > binutils. External binutils is enabled by setting > CROSS_BINUTILS_PREFIX=/usr/local/${TARGET_ARCH}-freebsd/bin/ > > This happens automatically if the target specifies BINUTILS_BOOTSTRAP > in BROKEN_OPTIONS -- for example, arm64 sets > BROKEN_OPTIONS+=BINUTILS BINUTILS_BOOTSTRAP GCC GCC_BOOTSTRAP GDB > > I'd suggest that the first step in any of these discussions is to use > this to test building with the binutils port. We know it won't work > for mips today because upstream bintuils lacks FreeBSD/mips support. > It may work for other targets though. Even if it doesn't the same work > needs to be done regardless of whether the target uses an up-to-date > binutils from ports or from the src tree. Speaking of CROSS_BINUTILS_PREFIX, we need to unify CROSS*PREFIX stuff with the CROSS_TOOLCHAIN stuff. Two different ways to specify thing. Warner From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Mon Nov 9 02:20:43 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D56FA24EBC for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:20:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net (bsdtec.plus.com [84.92.41.141]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF5F01ADE for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:20:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508951B57A for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:14:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net ([172.16.32.2]) by localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id 4r4pZSw-K658 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:14:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18BC81B573 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:14:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at bsdtec.net Received: from mx.bsdtec.net ([172.16.32.2]) by localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id d52UC3J8z9rG for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:14:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zbox.lerwick.hopto.org (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B6C221B569 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:14:45 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:18:29 +0000 From: Craig Butler To: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <20151109021829.626222b1@zbox.lerwick.hopto.org> In-Reply-To: References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.13.0 (GTK+ 2.24.28; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 02:20:43 -0000 On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 18:43:39 -0700 Warner Losh wrote: > On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Ed Maste wrote: > > > On 8 November 2015 at 20:46, Justin Hibbits > > wrote: > > > > > > I 100% agree with you on this. If we can update binutils to the > > > latest and greatest, I believe powerpc64 would be able to work > > > with clang. I've backported several patches, with IBM's > > > permission, to binutils for handling new relocations, etc. > > > However, not all patches are straight forward, and currently > > > we're missing something, which is causing odd segfaults in ld(1), > > > when linking as(1). No other binary, only as(1). I've tried > > > looking through it, but the binutils code is a mess. I'm sure > > > the bug that's getting hit was fixed with newer binutils, but > > > have had a very hard time trying to test with it. > > > > We have support in the tree to use an external binutils > > automatically > > - we use this on arm64, which is completely unsupported by the > > in-tree binutils. External binutils is enabled by setting > > CROSS_BINUTILS_PREFIX=/usr/local/${TARGET_ARCH}-freebsd/bin/ > > > > This happens automatically if the target specifies > > BINUTILS_BOOTSTRAP in BROKEN_OPTIONS -- for example, arm64 sets > > BROKEN_OPTIONS+=BINUTILS BINUTILS_BOOTSTRAP GCC GCC_BOOTSTRAP GDB > > > > I'd suggest that the first step in any of these discussions is to > > use this to test building with the binutils port. We know it won't > > work for mips today because upstream bintuils lacks FreeBSD/mips > > support. It may work for other targets though. Even if it doesn't > > the same work needs to be done regardless of whether the target > > uses an up-to-date binutils from ports or from the src tree. > > > Speaking of CROSS_BINUTILS_PREFIX, we need to unify CROSS*PREFIX stuff > with the CROSS_TOOLCHAIN stuff. Two different ways to specify thing. > > Warner > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-sparc64 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-sparc64-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Hi Folks I am available to do the dogs work... test patches, compile etc etc. The last clang venture did not end well. Would like to help get a modern binutils and co going for sparc64. Kind Regards Craig Butler From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Mon Nov 9 02:46:35 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F931A296C0 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:46:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x229.google.com (mail-ig0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 683D8178A for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 02:46:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by igl9 with SMTP id 9so21941473igl.0 for ; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 18:46:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=UZ+EMHp9zw2DfpPcOR5oSzYJ0EH0Z7ovb5a3iomGag4=; b=Kc5OYqLeguMMvAxCXj4GLSgtuL+hujp+L5Z2aHZcdN3EpKcbyNQRMtSFVQyQe8uTxV 7e8FBTCXN/9duzaUCVz1l/T6LL5NXx/7dJ5uH/vEtRDF1YCr2dWpWy5wcW0Lw7X4UkJn CjRc4viLqtegzobRa4JvUmwzx2a3VchD99yaazvM0uVk08sTTKFOTzB2dUYitlr6KHLr Pfs2cVFvwrvfiOu7F5DcatBtFccHso/gUCap0SaicgQYjvurSQkeLxC4wGpYgCRHRIsB xrlw7eZGZrco0ynQhNq3LC67IesBMnq7lcl99pRwpvlV0TnYf+uWntzu/ABFePMFehBr TJzg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.62.104 with SMTP id x8mr17809462igr.22.1447037194755; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 18:46:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.217.196 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 18:46:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20151109021829.626222b1@zbox.lerwick.hopto.org> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <20151109021829.626222b1@zbox.lerwick.hopto.org> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 18:46:34 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 From: Adrian Chadd To: Craig Butler Cc: freebsd-sparc64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 02:46:35 -0000 hiya, We can build sparc64 using gcc-4.9 and gcc-5 right now. It may actually even boot. Is anyone willing to compile up a world/kernel and try booting them? As bapt has said, the main shortcoming is a lack of compiler that works as shipped in /usr/bin, so you need to build/install a package for that to happen. But it'd be nice to verify that a gcc-5 world and kernel do work. Thanks, -adrian On 8 November 2015 at 18:18, Craig Butler wrote: > On Sun, 8 Nov 2015 18:43:39 -0700 > Warner Losh wrote: > >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Ed Maste wrote: >> >> > On 8 November 2015 at 20:46, Justin Hibbits >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > I 100% agree with you on this. If we can update binutils to the >> > > latest and greatest, I believe powerpc64 would be able to work >> > > with clang. I've backported several patches, with IBM's >> > > permission, to binutils for handling new relocations, etc. >> > > However, not all patches are straight forward, and currently >> > > we're missing something, which is causing odd segfaults in ld(1), >> > > when linking as(1). No other binary, only as(1). I've tried >> > > looking through it, but the binutils code is a mess. I'm sure >> > > the bug that's getting hit was fixed with newer binutils, but >> > > have had a very hard time trying to test with it. >> > >> > We have support in the tree to use an external binutils >> > automatically >> > - we use this on arm64, which is completely unsupported by the >> > in-tree binutils. External binutils is enabled by setting >> > CROSS_BINUTILS_PREFIX=/usr/local/${TARGET_ARCH}-freebsd/bin/ >> > >> > This happens automatically if the target specifies >> > BINUTILS_BOOTSTRAP in BROKEN_OPTIONS -- for example, arm64 sets >> > BROKEN_OPTIONS+=BINUTILS BINUTILS_BOOTSTRAP GCC GCC_BOOTSTRAP GDB >> > >> > I'd suggest that the first step in any of these discussions is to >> > use this to test building with the binutils port. We know it won't >> > work for mips today because upstream bintuils lacks FreeBSD/mips >> > support. It may work for other targets though. Even if it doesn't >> > the same work needs to be done regardless of whether the target >> > uses an up-to-date binutils from ports or from the src tree. >> >> >> Speaking of CROSS_BINUTILS_PREFIX, we need to unify CROSS*PREFIX stuff >> with the CROSS_TOOLCHAIN stuff. Two different ways to specify thing. >> >> Warner >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-sparc64 >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-sparc64-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > Hi Folks > > I am available to do the dogs work... test patches, compile etc etc. > The last clang venture did not end well. > > Would like to help get a modern binutils and co going for sparc64. > > Kind Regards > > Craig Butler > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-sparc64 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-sparc64-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Mon Nov 9 03:06:33 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89396A29B17 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:06:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net (bsdtec.plus.com [84.92.41.141]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 416891226 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:06:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7981B1B8E5; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:06:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net ([172.16.32.2]) by localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id KyY7_bfkI4Ky; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:06:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF6351B8DD; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:06:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at bsdtec.net Received: from mx.bsdtec.net ([172.16.32.2]) by localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 8MX_ZHaP3Qc7; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:06:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5489B1B8D6; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:06:27 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:06:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Craig Butler To: Adrian Chadd Cc: freebsd-sparc64 Message-ID: <2077960964.436.1447038316438.JavaMail.craig@w520> In-Reply-To: References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <20151109021829.626222b1@zbox.lerwick.hopto.org> Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [172.16.32.3] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.4_GA_5718 (Zimbra Desktop/7.2.7_12059_Windows) Thread-Topic: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Thread-Index: 6D5qRk/zjINFCoeaUCjJj0V4nq8+lw== X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 03:06:33 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Adrian Chadd" > To: "Craig Butler" > Cc: "freebsd-sparc64" > Sent: Monday, 9 November, 2015 2:46:34 AM > Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 > > hiya, > > We can build sparc64 using gcc-4.9 and gcc-5 right now. It may > actually even boot. > > Is anyone willing to compile up a world/kernel and try booting them? > > As bapt has said, the main shortcoming is a lack of compiler that > works as shipped in /usr/bin, so you need to build/install a package > for that to happen. But it'd be nice to verify that a gcc-5 world and > kernel do work. > > Thanks, > > > > -adrian > OK, I'll try that now, will fire up a vanilla 10.2 RELEASE sparc64 and grab the quarterly gcc5 from Mark Linimon and build and install world/kernel. Report back shortly. Kind Regards Craig Butler From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Mon Nov 9 03:21:43 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C765A29F20 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:21:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91C31842 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:21:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id C8A4DA29F1E; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:21:42 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE44BA29F1D; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:21:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1on0143.outbound.protection.outlook.com [157.56.110.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "MSIT Machine Auth CA 2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3F80183F; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:21:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from BY2PR05CA027.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.250.17) by BLUPR0501MB1666.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.163.120.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.318.15; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:21:33 +0000 Received: from BN1BFFO11FD053.protection.gbl (2a01:111:f400:7c10::1:105) by BY2PR05CA027.outlook.office365.com (2a01:111:e400:2c5f::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.318.15 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:21:32 +0000 Authentication-Results: spf=softfail (sender IP is 66.129.239.17) smtp.mailfrom=juniper.net; bsdimp.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;bsdimp.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net; Received-SPF: SoftFail (protection.outlook.com: domain of transitioning juniper.net discourages use of 66.129.239.17 as permitted sender) Received: from p-emfe01a-sac.jnpr.net (66.129.239.17) by BN1BFFO11FD053.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.58.145.8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.325.5 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 03:21:32 +0000 Received: from magenta.juniper.net (172.17.27.123) by p-emfe01a-sac.jnpr.net (172.24.192.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 19:21:30 -0800 Received: from chaos.jnpr.net (chaos.jnpr.net [172.21.16.28]) by magenta.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id tA93LTD14616; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 19:21:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from chaos (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by chaos.jnpr.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06562580A9; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 19:21:29 -0800 (PST) To: Warner Losh CC: Ed Maste , Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , , Justin Hibbits , freebsd-arch , Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 In-Reply-To: References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> Comments: In-reply-to: Warner Losh message dated "Sun, 08 Nov 2015 18:43:39 -0700." 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Two different ways to specify thing. I guess that depends on how they are used. We (Juniper) probably took all this to extremes many years ago, and after a few revisions it can easily get confusing. FWIW for a compiler: /volume/hab/FreeBSD/10/amd64/gcc/jnpr/4.2.1/amd64-juniper-junos.8/bin/amd6= 4-juniper-junos-gcc we currently have something like: TOOLCHAIN_PREFIX =3D /volume/hab/FreeBSD/10/amd64 TOOLCHAIN_${MACHINE} =3D gcc/jnpr/4.2.1/amd64-juniper-junos.8 CROSS_TARGET_${MACHINE} =3D amd64-juniper-junos all the VAR[._]${MACHINE} get resolved like: CROSS_TARGET ?=3D ${CROSS_TARGET_${MACHINE}} COMPILER_TYPE ?=3D ${COMPILER_TYPE_${MACHINE}} if CROSS_TARGET is not empty, then CROSS_TARGET_PREFIX =3D ${CROSS_TARGET}- so all the above combine into BUILD_TOOL_PREFIX =3D ${TOOLCHAIN_PREFIX}/${TOOLCHAIN_${MACHINE}}/bin and you can set CC etc to CC.gcc =3D ${BUILD_TOOL_PREFIX}/${CROSS_TARGET_PREFIX}gcc AS.gcc =3D ${BUILD_TOOL_PREFIX}/${CROSS_TARGET_PREFIX}as etc From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Mon Nov 9 23:14:50 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E519AA2A3D8 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:14:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net (bsdtec.plus.com [84.92.41.141]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D0D91272 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:14:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1A51BCFF; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:14:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net ([172.16.32.2]) by localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id NU34SblKPz7j; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:14:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB10D1BCF9; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:14:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at bsdtec.net Received: from mx.bsdtec.net ([172.16.32.2]) by localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id feDDaGQuCvht; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:14:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA731BCF3; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:14:43 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:14:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Craig Butler To: Adrian Chadd Cc: freebsd-sparc64 Message-ID: <1667192384.526.1447110877442.JavaMail.craig@w520> In-Reply-To: <2077960964.436.1447038316438.JavaMail.craig@w520> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <20151109021829.626222b1@zbox.lerwick.hopto.org> <2077960964.436.1447038316438.JavaMail.craig@w520> Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [172.16.32.3] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.4_GA_5718 (Zimbra Desktop/7.2.7_12059_Windows) Thread-Topic: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Thread-Index: 6D5qRk/zjINFCoeaUCjJj0V4nq8+l7EFan5u X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:14:51 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Craig Butler" > To: "Adrian Chadd" > Cc: "freebsd-sparc64" > Sent: Monday, 9 November, 2015 3:06:26 AM > Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Adrian Chadd" > > To: "Craig Butler" > > Cc: "freebsd-sparc64" > > Sent: Monday, 9 November, 2015 2:46:34 AM > > Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care > > about Sparc64 > > > > hiya, > > > > We can build sparc64 using gcc-4.9 and gcc-5 right now. It may > > actually even boot. > > > > Is anyone willing to compile up a world/kernel and try booting > > them? > > > > As bapt has said, the main shortcoming is a lack of compiler that > > works as shipped in /usr/bin, so you need to build/install a > > package > > for that to happen. But it'd be nice to verify that a gcc-5 world > > and > > kernel do work. > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > -adrian > > > > OK, I'll try that now, will fire up a vanilla 10.2 RELEASE sparc64 > and grab the quarterly gcc5 from Mark Linimon and build and install > world/kernel. > Report back shortly. > > Kind Regards > > Craig Butler > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-sparc64 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-sparc64-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" It Failed -- ===> include/rpcsvc (buildincludes) RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/key_prot.x -o key_prot.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/klm_prot.x -o klm_prot.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/mount.x -o mount.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/nfs_prot.x -o nfs_prot.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/nlm_prot.x -o nlm_prot.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/rex.x -o rex.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/rnusers.x -o rnusers.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/rquota.x -o rquota.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/rstat.x -o rstat.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/rwall.x -o rwall.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/sm_inter.x -o sm_inter.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/spray.x -o spray.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/yppasswd.x -o yppasswd.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/yp.x -o yp.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/ypxfrd.x -o ypxfrd.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/ypupdate_prot.x -o ypupdate_prot.h RPCGEN_CPP=/usr/local/bin/cpp5 rpcgen -C -h -DWANT_NFS3 /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/nis.x -o nis.h NIS_MODIFY_ACC + ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ rpcgen: /usr/src/include/rpcsvc/nis.x, line 404: definition keyword expected *** Error code 1 Stop. make[5]: stopped in /usr/src/include/rpcsvc *** Error code 1 Stop. make[4]: stopped in /usr/src/include *** Error code 1 Stop. make[3]: stopped in /usr/src/include *** Error code 1 Stop. make[2]: stopped in /usr/src *** Error code 1 Stop. make[1]: stopped in /usr/src *** Error code 1 Stop. make: stopped in /usr/src From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Mon Nov 9 23:51:44 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45AF7A2A0A8 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:51:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexmcwhirter@triadic.us) Received: from SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US (smtp.tech.triadic.us [98.102.61.98]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E8C11245 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 23:51:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexmcwhirter@triadic.us) Received: from localhost (unknown [10.128.0.32]) by SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE10310406B7; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 18:44:17 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at Tech.Triadic.US Received: from SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US ([IPv6:::ffff:10.128.0.24]) by localhost (Milter1.Tech.Triadic.US [IPv6:::ffff:10.128.0.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id d0nXt5MIik7U; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 18:44:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [100.122.90.164] (82.sub-70-208-197.myvzw.com [70.208.197.82]) by SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 346B31040434; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 18:44:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 18:51:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <158140ec-df18-4918-be79-84cdf6075aae@email.android.com> X-Android-Message-ID: <158140ec-df18-4918-be79-84cdf6075aae@email.android.com> In-Reply-To: <1667192384.526.1447110877442.JavaMail.craig@w520> From: Alex McWhirter To: Craig Butler Cc: freebsd-sparc64 , Adrian Chadd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:51:44 -0000 R0NDIDUgaGFzIGNhdXNlZCB1cyBzb21lIGlzc3VlcyBvbiBpbGx1bW9zIGFzIHdlbGwuIEJ1dCBH Q0MgNC45IHdvcmtzIGZpbmUuCgpBbGV4IHNlbnQgdGhlIG1lc3NhZ2UsIGJ1dCBoaXMgcGhvbmUg c2VudCB0aGUgdHlwb3MuLi4KCk9uIE5vdiA5LCAyMDE1IDY6MTQgUE0sIENyYWlnIEJ1dGxlciB3 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IG1ha2VbMl06IHN0b3BwZWQgaW4gL3Vzci9zcmMgPiAqKiogRXJyb3IgY29kZSAxID4gPiBTdG9w LiA+IG1ha2VbMV06IHN0b3BwZWQgaW4gL3Vzci9zcmMgPiAqKiogRXJyb3IgY29kZSAxID4gPiBT dG9wLiA+IG1ha2U6IHN0b3BwZWQgaW4gL3Vzci9zcmMgPiA+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fID4gZnJlZWJzZC1zcGFyYzY0QGZyZWVic2Qub3Jn IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdCA+IGh0dHBzOi8vbGlzdHMuZnJlZWJzZC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9mcmVlYnNkLXNwYXJjNjQgPiBUbyB1bnN1YnNjcmliZSwgc2VuZCBhbnkgbWFpbCB0byAiZnJl ZWJzZC1zcGFyYzY0LXVuc3Vic2NyaWJlQGZyZWVic2Qub3JnIg== From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Tue Nov 10 04:22:34 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E355A2BA68 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 04:22:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from AWilcox@Wilcox-Tech.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org 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(AWilcox@Wilcox-Tech.com@71.57.141.247) by mail.foxkit.us with ESMTPA; 10 Nov 2015 04:30:25 -0000 Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 To: Sean Bruno , Marius Strobl References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> Cc: freebsd-arch , sparc64@freebsd.org From: Anna Wilcox X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 22:22:24 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 04:22:34 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 08/11/15 11:16, Sean Bruno wrote: > On 11/08/15 07:55, Marius Strobl wrote: > > Unlike x86, sun4u and sun4v CPUs are only designed to be backwards > > compatible as far as the userland is concerned, > > host-PCI{,e}-bridges aren't compatible etc. So the kernel side > > always needs work and it simply isn't a matter of "testing" newer > > CPUs and models to work. Thus, the hardware is needed for > > developing support, see also below. > > > I'm not sure at which point I'd speak of people "clamoring" for > > support of some hardware; f. e. there also isn't a request for the > > graphics of Haswell and later Intel CPUs to be supported on the > > mailing lists every other day but you'll certainly agree that many > > are waiting for it. Now there likely are fewer people looking > > forward for later sun4u and sun4v processors getting supported but > > there definitely are people asking for it, just have a look at the > > lists. > > Now is the time for those users/people to step up and "clamor" for it. > The example of Haswell graphics is a good point. There is an active > developer working on the support with instructions on how to use the > test branch in github. We don't have an equivalent project ongoing > for the Sparc64 target AFAIK. I welcome being proven wrong here. > > > I don't see why sparc64 would be "the obvious odd arch" in that > > regard. The real problem is switching an architecture for which > > clang might have gotten en par with GCC after clang was changed to > > require C++11 for bootstrap. Given that clang was only the default > > on arm and x86 at that point in time, we are now stuck without an > > in-tree upgrade path on all other architectures. Granted, that > > might be lesser a problem on mips as these machines typically don't > > have enough CPU and RAM that self-hosting would be interesting in > > the first place. That still puts sparc64 into the same boat as > > powerpc and powerpc64, though. > > It's "obvious" to me from reading mailing lists and IRC chatter. This > is a poor justification on my part as it requires participating in > these to see the "obviousness" of the argument. > > I am personally pursuing clang enabled MIPS builds. Others are moving > the MIPS target to enable support for gcc from ports. Powerpc > developers have been working on clang and the clang intree is built > and installed in the powerpc images. From my impression, there hasn't > been a similar push intree to do the same type of things for the > Sparc64 target. Am I wrong here? Just as a further note, I had experimented in January of this year with making a binary pkg mirror for sun4u using my (comparatively sad) Ultra 60 and a cross-build system. Installation was fairly straightforward but I was having issues bringing up Clang and was having many issues trying to build "modern" packages using GCC 4.2.1. See my blog for some insight: http://blog.foxkit.us/search/label/sparc Unfortunately, truth be told, I gave up after the Freenode IRC channel gave me a whole heap of abuse and name-calling for trying to ask for any support with the sparc64 port. I couldn't find the documentation I needed to keep going and nobody wanted to help. If there are others working on this and I am not alone after all, I will gladly pull the Ultra 60 back on to my desk and do what I can to help out. GCC 4.8 or 4.9 would be a huge, huge, huge improvement in particular. - --arw -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWQXD8AAoJEMspy1GSK50U/qIP/0v4ltN6jkC7q5ijz/4x68QC sG8uk6r2Od9w5z8DF2RPLyNIRchvGTpxLMFPtCNX3Skdpchf/dK7wp/BBPjjzYEw BdkjgXEZiJape6YWI8XtbM681YrHoe9nYUkIMuKBKIMiMuhCTuExByca/x43GR8a U0RWbdQgLCRi7SmH4gLgZUTNp0yPhWE5O2IAHNoL+JwMC0Jwd/OjS9Za972+ZvAv 9d4aDmhmwFzdZPPxZps9iVytya27k0FfrY+vc6KHVsn1GHIh9SOcULBmrB6I5XOT D5JXA1OTmPHMhdd7/aY+6HWZO1eOk1kcwIKbKVXJuqNyl0twScHCfuSdE214SfDk CeYCUmIZs7Sh0+tUzIfFQHceD/sRomrXwoMY/6OzMiVGkGq/1A1PdgQheg0E1nbc DMQGV60drqFmVFVrmAKqhE8R7RtfTj5SvwMxjeLTEyPGehyv1mIarSCrebxCj75p mcJWqUiqjGuSIlV+vuEaSc9zbPh+ivAXzJHS0/gqp+WTdmH5LLECzzanspanxdTK 5Xa6KaP7CzcX4O7/uoIuB/tuczQVZGonPbT6apMlUpCPazxGvIgT26g9dGH4VfJM ugvDcfDzme0u04Ts2nkw5D08U/tDZMQfL1C7+BEYxSI811NY83BDrZCIkdX9IzdD ITFrIGCVocsrIlvShE0N =3Dk0k3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Tue Nov 10 04:59:44 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ECDEA2B217 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 04:59:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E96B137A for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 04:59:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 7DD7FA2B215; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 04:59:44 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C469A2B214; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 04:59:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io0-x22c.google.com (mail-io0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47DF91379; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 04:59:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by iodd200 with SMTP id d200so209291836iod.0; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 20:59:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=0AK6W9SWqIV2dF/rWYqiLrT0ip6i7kfvW1cONrI5TEM=; b=s+tocQ4TRzWI9WwXNErxM3munVRt7i7oAgPj7USdRi3IUf7Mkf2cR3b1dVngDL/5Ra nGB0BuY1r6ePk+QQro51y4GASOX26mrOiuU8DF2Nus9nRsnmXAcWitrhWEj++gJbJywn +JWfDRNhdxPEKWsgvTd9NbHPcZDUnmxe24uOxhf5GS2d/PNDEI4Hb5fga3ttFQnp2dFh jSCIDv8rT8wcPp2p85/qPLSmKq1FfPtDnLt4ZCwzGD1H+2o7qPFx/eWld2ECXt1DvpLQ rvwuIcdmjKtYg09stCyqsmYrZm9E/WFBLYvWsJ1Ip+7Frm7KSslosjDlSJkukKDOWEzd 0Euw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.46.142 with SMTP id u14mr1806712iou.165.1447131583247; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 20:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.217.196 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 20:59:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 20:59:43 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 From: Adrian Chadd To: Anna Wilcox Cc: Sean Bruno , Marius Strobl , sparc64@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 04:59:44 -0000 On 9 November 2015 at 20:22, Anna Wilcox wrote: > > Just as a further note, I had experimented in January of this year with > making a binary pkg mirror for sun4u using my (comparatively sad) Ultra > 60 and a cross-build system. Installation was fairly straightforward > but I was having issues bringing up Clang and was having many issues > trying to build "modern" packages using GCC 4.2.1. > > See my blog for some insight: http://blog.foxkit.us/search/label/sparc Oh wow, cool, you've been busy! That's great. > > Unfortunately, truth be told, I gave up after the Freenode IRC channel > gave me a whole heap of abuse and name-calling for trying to ask for any > support with the sparc64 port. I couldn't find the documentation I > needed to keep going and nobody wanted to help. If there are others > working on this and I am not alone after all, I will gladly pull the > Ultra 60 back on to my desk and do what I can to help out. GCC 4.8 or > 4.9 would be a huge, huge, huge improvement in particular. Ugh, IRC can be jerks. Grab me on efnet (adrian) and i'll direct you into a slightly less posionous channel. :) From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Tue Nov 10 17:54:47 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12964A2CD84 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:54:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sbruno@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9EA1D54 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:54:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sbruno@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id ED1BFA2CD82; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:54:46 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8C0A2CD81; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:54:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sbruno@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.ignoranthack.me (ignoranthack.me [199.102.79.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF07D1D53; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:54:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sbruno@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.200.208] (unknown [50.136.155.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: sbruno@ignoranthack.me) by mail.ignoranthack.me (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6520E193657; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:54:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 To: Anna Wilcox , Marius Strobl References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> Cc: freebsd-arch , sparc64@freebsd.org From: Sean Bruno Message-ID: <56422F5F.3090407@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:54:39 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:54:47 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 > Just as a further note, I had experimented in January of this year > with making a binary pkg mirror for sun4u using my (comparatively > sad) Ultra 60 and a cross-build system. Installation was fairly > straightforward but I was having issues bringing up Clang and was > having many issues trying to build "modern" packages using GCC > 4.2.1. > > See my blog for some insight: > http://blog.foxkit.us/search/label/sparc > > Unfortunately, truth be told, I gave up after the Freenode IRC > channel gave me a whole heap of abuse and name-calling for trying > to ask for any support with the sparc64 port. I couldn't find the > documentation I needed to keep going and nobody wanted to help. If > there are others working on this and I am not alone after all, I > will gladly pull the Ultra 60 back on to my desk and do what I can > to help out. GCC 4.8 or 4.9 would be a huge, huge, huge > improvement in particular. > > --arw > > > Efnet is where a lot of freebsd folks hang out that actually want to *fix* things. If you are looking for us, #bsdmips, #bsdports are where I (sbruno) can be found. sean -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQF8BAEBCgBmBQJWQi9cXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRCQUFENDYzMkU3MTIxREU4RDIwOTk3REQx MjAxRUZDQTFFNzI3RTY0AAoJEBIB78oecn5kc6UIAIZvV1tXkDbOLxyEKvF5dWhL pWDoBV2WOGPaEjMaVj7u285JMCKCl8CF9YGj/qDPOPG1UZVdDAWBiCuOJJXinDSq tVYZbmlR661zkCJkICLzX1Fty6QcHvdmzo1qzoeDbVw/WYQVwlrVltp+YdVlXxuL MMSxjdFRMqxn/6D3k1mtW6M/M47Wnkh/Z3kNPLsFySHBWfhBqvMb8IEyU3lJLK1R HHjmOOuL0xYJY4epTcTH+7M2kVUD7a1NZtr/F/Aiu5sBVcQqu3rmoIh4IwtRWNXq mQmJkXCvTgMKpKeoRMDNJ97wG298lPz0uYiR1Tw33fdYkgQFIh2/c08SF5QtSbU= =KxUd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Tue Nov 10 22:10:51 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E255A2CAFB for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:10:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacob.ritorto@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D4BE1AB2 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:10:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacob.ritorto@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 5B8CAA2CAF9; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:10:51 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF6CA2CAF8; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:10:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacob.ritorto@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x231.google.com (mail-wm0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E946E1AAF; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:10:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacob.ritorto@gmail.com) Received: by wmec201 with SMTP id c201so22450842wme.1; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:10:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=bFuTZ4+mFaK9Xdo66PCw7SfqoHSp46JAEh7ypV3Zhw0=; b=yp1obvlBXKfkzOuXNABIvliOltSiNWTFthN+1Kk0N1cd+lc97ocfcP7Zc9SvmT4Hxi GQHdo+HLRkn6Kyw4rEePPJ9Q2tB/fbCaOi8bJBX4ByMCL7cuPxxdEv1Gotea93iJ45oq pcnT/Ay0PYb28UyYVSmOFrwFLB4YRr+uDrMekX/CrFFcCFpkJFyMaAjhY4RDv2EwxA/U mRN8prxKZmNn122e8kNMJzpSW3CUbAsJnWjPmF56YKUe/D+cSQ0raFzxFSzd5rFRYqYt xsNTMhWss0uXO4LjcptIhigZpBYrO2uxTUYZUSJgHx2lqFHAq841dzjkZb4gfGHEDqLx /g8g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.159.100 with SMTP id xb4mr6320119wjb.136.1447193448448; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:10:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.27.14.98 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:10:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <56422F5F.3090407@freebsd.org> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> <56422F5F.3090407@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:10:48 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 From: Jacob Ritorto To: "freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org" , freebsd-arch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:10:51 -0000 Just to put it out there, I looked at FreeBSD on SPARC sometime last year and found it to be working but lacking current development libs, graphics and desktop stuff so badly that it was essentially unusable, so I reverted to an Illumos-based distro. Sorry. If there's call for, desire and hope of making modern FreeBSD plus most ports work _well_ on this platform, then I'm all in to help. I have lots of sparc64 machines: ultra 1,2,5, sunblade 150 and 2000, netra 1 and some t-1000/2000 boxes, too (and quite a load of 32-bit sparc machines, come to think of it). Would like to help with the effort if you can find a use for me. I've not done much sparc assembly but have done some c and could certainly help to test stuff. Familiar with git, svn, etc. and building software, bug filing, etc.. thx jake On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Sean Bruno wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > > > Just as a further note, I had experimented in January of this year > > with making a binary pkg mirror for sun4u using my (comparatively > > sad) Ultra 60 and a cross-build system. Installation was fairly > > straightforward but I was having issues bringing up Clang and was > > having many issues trying to build "modern" packages using GCC > > 4.2.1. > > From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Tue Nov 10 22:27:40 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 362C3A2CE62 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:27:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203CB156D for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:27:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 1DEDFA2CE61; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:27:40 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D698A2CE60; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:27:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) Received: from hades.sorbs.net (mail.sorbs.net [67.231.146.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016A9156C; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from isux.com (firewall.isux.com [213.165.190.213]) by hades.sorbs.net (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.29.0 64bit (built Jul 9 2013)) with ESMTPSA id <0NXM00EB9EOOYY00@hades.sorbs.net>; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:34:02 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <56426F52.80709@sorbs.net> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:27:30 +0100 From: Michelle Sullivan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.24) Gecko/20100301 SeaMonkey/1.1.19 To: Anna Wilcox Cc: Sean Bruno , Marius Strobl , sparc64@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> In-reply-to: <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:27:40 -0000 Anna Wilcox wrote: > Unfortunately, truth be told, I gave up after the Freenode IRC channel > gave me a whole heap of abuse and name-calling for trying to ask for any > support with the sparc64 port. I couldn't find the documentation I > Odd, I didn't see that (I'm there most of the time) but yeah they can be a harsh crowd.. I also asked about sparc there didn't get anywhere so dropped it ( I have a U60 (Sol10), a E450(Sol8), 2xE3500's(Sol10), 2xE3000's (decommissioned) and 2 Netra T1's (running FBSD9.2 currently) - and was looking to changing them all to FreeBSD - but then I realized there was little chance of patches so gave up... until this thread. ) -- Michelle Sullivan http://www.mhix.org/ From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 05:54:48 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CDE3A22BE5 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:54:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB661793 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:54:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 1C186A22BE4; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:54:48 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F15A22BE3 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:54:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qk0-x232.google.com (mail-qk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5B571791 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:54:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by qkcl124 with SMTP id l124so8351209qkc.3 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:54:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp_com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=yCaiO9dIS4gR0WnQ+WNMsZ1CqUcRzpclKOO22DpazL4=; b=C/b52v/Ex1VugdbvwkDBRjPqwfjYJuBZksDfNCPJKASVUf2OZddgiLOy9ydE1w+gsO /N/T8WGaZRYzWrE9pozTMIE2Oz7Muw2pRBzdb+8P7V9cO5+L6KFkNYrO0TAsLiZcch+4 IGXq+XczRobjgUKPJK/E/9xkyQzZZAqJQEyULInVdOV5nZhZzaAMf2xiNX95vf/3FWTS W+LibkyttC/JLst/0XHf16rJR0ErsH7cxK/vJ6pg2Erj8KBW/MtDh69oD8Qi3LgXBeWc 7SAqSjR4oIh5TKu5QBkKXwsRoOIbSK2HOQee9qGjuZS0b9pDlmrX5XT7Wco9QXQC+vtz 60Ag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=yCaiO9dIS4gR0WnQ+WNMsZ1CqUcRzpclKOO22DpazL4=; b=g381s3WCYRakgc2KVn1f/BeHl1j7fVGheOYrrA4wZL2LRsne8livntDJMp5kTQ011K zMbhkAydZRmOc0V4WhZ/shjT8dyKdSQHneHADFbH/aefD8p8yvPV0SpV1VPgp+OYIdz5 1sqjgFNCk5QO/Qo04hOsPCzzrUXHOMhl3yMv0+NgWdnGIJxQmNpwAaGMmRaxCFe3vc0A 7zUsWOThGuanLj61mme1AzuWHNXQBNgPRdCZR6vep0nNhUhrOZe1pd3GsIhAhC4riDKb cBNe7NPZ8Aia11Oa8faJdEJuM44E7jOOtcPfjzXSoJsQoHmRVVfbOBENwD45tjThIdig 4Z7g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlP3W6Odlbu4nReu6uuvActWMtwV9zhWbU9iJcLUUE1yHZWQN+nLkTnuCBbQ0GexBTbxuMK MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.55.23.170 with SMTP id 42mr8853994qkx.42.1447221286195; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:54:46 -0800 (PST) Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.140.27.181 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:54:46 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [50.253.99.174] In-Reply-To: <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:54:46 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: DvkZXFauBGmGTBZw9Tx1wa65x_w Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 From: Warner Losh To: Anna Wilcox Cc: Sean Bruno , Marius Strobl , sparc64@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:54:48 -0000 On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 9:22 PM, Anna Wilcox wrote: > > Just as a further note, I had experimented in January of this year with > making a binary pkg mirror for sun4u using my (comparatively sad) Ultra > 60 and a cross-build system. Installation was fairly straightforward > but I was having issues bringing up Clang and was having many issues > trying to build "modern" packages using GCC 4.2.1. > > See my blog for some insight: http://blog.foxkit.us/search/label/sparc > > Unfortunately, truth be told, I gave up after the Freenode IRC channel > gave me a whole heap of abuse and name-calling for trying to ask for any > support with the sparc64 port. I couldn't find the documentation I > needed to keep going and nobody wanted to help. If there are others > working on this and I am not alone after all, I will gladly pull the > Ultra 60 back on to my desk and do what I can to help out. GCC 4.8 or > 4.9 would be a huge, huge, huge improvement in particular. > sparc64 is the odd-man out currently. However, even if clang doesn't work, the gcc external toolchain works well for other platforms. If it makes sprac64 more viable, then so much the better. There should even be a 5.0 gcc port that's keyed into the new CROSS_TARGET stuff, if that works for the ports. If the many other offers of help fall through, then I'd be happy to act as a backup to get patches into the tree. If there's enough people working on this, we may win from getting more developers into the project and it may be viable for another release cycle. While nothing is definite, if nothing is done the outcome is certain. As for the bozos on IRC on Freenode, I'm just glad that you spoke up about what you'd done. That's the best revenge when I've had people discourage me in the past: to show them what's possible when you step away from the can't do attitude. So, have you found the docs you need? Warner From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 06:55:42 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1C4AA2B891 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:55:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC681190 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:55:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 8962DA2B88F; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:55:42 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 875AEA2B88D for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:55:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com) Received: from barracuda.ixsystems.com (mail.ixsystems.com [69.198.165.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.ixsystems.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DD41118C for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:55:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com) X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1447224940-08ca040e8524e920001-YdePoE Received: from mail.iXsystems.com ([10.2.55.1]) by barracuda.ixsystems.com with ESMTP id phvaTssl2Ia7gcah (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:55:40 -0800 (PST) X-Barracuda-Envelope-From: jkh@mail.turbofuzz.com X-Barracuda-RBL-Trusted-Forwarder: 10.2.55.1 X-ASG-Whitelist: Client Received: from [10.8.0.30] (unknown [10.8.0.30]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.iXsystems.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 75D0AA01D1; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:55:39 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3108\)) Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 From: Jordan Hubbard X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:55:38 -0800 Cc: Anna Wilcox , freebsd-arch , Sean Bruno , sparc64@freebsd.org, Marius Strobl Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> To: Warner Losh X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3108) X-Barracuda-Connect: UNKNOWN[10.2.55.1] X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1447224940 X-Barracuda-Encrypted: DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA X-Barracuda-URL: https://10.2.0.41:443/cgi-mod/mark.cgi X-Virus-Scanned: by bsmtpd at ixsystems.com X-Barracuda-BRTS-Status: 1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:55:42 -0000 > On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:54 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 > sparc64 is the odd-man out currently. However, even if clang doesn't > work, the gcc external toolchain works well for other platforms. If it = makes > sprac64 more viable, then so much the better.=20 Hi Warner, I hate to be a voice of pragmatism here when we=E2=80=99re having so = much fun discussing it from an architectural perspective, but=E2=80=A6 What=E2=80=99s the actual goal (from a future market relevance = perspective) of putting resources, any resources, into sparc64? I think = that=E2=80=99s the key question that needs to get asked and answered = here since we all know that: 1) FreeBSD is not NetBSD - it has never historically supported =E2=80=9Cx8= 6 alternative architectures=E2=80=9D just because they existed and might = be technically interesting to port to, there had to be some sort of user = community numbers to justify the time and energy expended for the = project as a whole (and even in an all-volunteer driven project, there = is simply no such thing as =E2=80=9Cfree=E2=80=9D - everything has a = cost somewhere). As phk noted earlier in the thread, the ALPHA port was an exception to = this rule simply because it was the first-ever 64 bit port for FreeBSD = and we knew it would buy us some much-needed 64 bit cleanliness, but it = also fell off the support roadmap and into the history books once = ALPHA=E2=80=99s market relevance had clearly ended. NetBSD/alpha still exists, all the way up to and including NetBSD 7.0, = because their slogan is =E2=80=9COf course it runs NetBSD.=E2=80=9D = Again, FreeBSD !=3D NetBSD. The emphasis on market share is and always = has been a key differentiator for FreeBSD and part of both its own = slogans and mission statement. 2) Sparc64 global market share has declined significantly since Oracle = purchased Sun, leaving Oracle and Fujitsu as the only two significant = players in that market. Sure, putting =E2=80=9Cold equipment to work=E2=80= =9D is also always a tempting objective, but it=E2=80=99s one that = really requires viewing through an objective lens since the perspective = of someone who owns said "old equipment" is rather more biased than the = perspective of the market as a whole. The market as a whole appears to = consist (in terms of global server market share): HP (x64) 27.6% IBM (x64) 22.9% DELL (x64) 16.4% All others (x64): 24% (combined estimate, including Cisco and = Huawei) Total: 90.9% [ Source: Gartner ] That leaves 9.1% for the rest of the server industry, which includes = Itanium, POWER4 and SPARC64. We can also probably safely assume that = even amongst that tiny 9% pie slice, vendors are focused on the future = since their overall market share is declining (about 5% annually), which = begs the question: Is FreeBSD/SPARC64 aiming at the T5, even while = Oracle themselves are shifting emphasis to lower-cost x64 systems for = which FreeBSD is already competitive, or is it really just trying to = keep some older collection of increasingly power/performance inefficient = (by comparison) alive? Again, what=E2=80=99s the long-term goal of supporting this = architecture? The old adage about =E2=80=9Cpicking your battles=E2=80=9D = applies here, no matter how enthusiastic the small community of = remaining SPARC users might be, which is why I am risking lightning = bolts of wrath from SPARC zealots in even daring to ask the question. = :-) Thanks, - Jordan From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 08:45:01 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7005A1FF3B for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:45:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B244217B2 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:45:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id B1966A1FF39; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:45:01 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFEC0A1FF38; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:45:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from vps.rulingia.com (vps.rulingia.com [103.243.244.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "vps.rulingia.com", Issuer "CAcert Class 3 Root" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E35A17B1; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:45:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from server.rulingia.com (c220-239-242-83.belrs5.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.242.83]) by vps.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id tAB8ieLP080021 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:44:46 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) X-Bogosity: Ham, spamicity=0.000000 Received: from server.rulingia.com (localhost.rulingia.com [127.0.0.1]) by server.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id tAB8iX5V094214 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:44:34 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from peter@server.rulingia.com) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id tAB8iWvX094213; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:44:32 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from peter) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:44:32 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: sparc64@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <20151111084432.GC67251@server.rulingia.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> X-PGP-Key: http://www.rulingia.com/keys/peter.pgp User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded STARTTLS authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (vps.rulingia.com [103.243.244.15]); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:44:47 +1100 (AEDT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:45:02 -0000 --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2015-Nov-10 22:55:38 -0800, Jordan Hubbard wrot= e: >Again, what=E2=80=99s the long-term goal of supporting this architecture? The things that sparc64 give us that x86 doesn't are big-endian and strict alignment. In theory, MIPS, PPC and ARM can give us both of those but I'm non sure whether we actually have any big-endian variants of them. --=20 Peter Jeremy --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJWQv/wXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFRUIyOTg2QzMwNjcxRTc0RTY1QzIyN0Ux NkE1OTdBMEU0QTIwQjM0AAoJEBall6Dkogs0Mw8P/0wJZuT/QdnrIfHfU0mdTWAg 0QdPoBQ2Amg0Sn6p0Pt2sWSY3JjKSL2HG7LhAr0v6nB41rU/v5QPSA/x5iCrjvMy z38kbkOYRH2qx4+b2d2bcDKPxXIYu5Dp55cM2BDOhkAM+Qw5BsJfN7zq48qQwndj UNtNrwUdQJK3zzLCPFXehmWTzg3B5nBRI0CDJarfI1NxVuFJR45TU+n9A6TBDxt8 PWJNNSHsQynqW+m/c+xaKUrMTaCYVI6MUVrxf7HcNm8lRhZ6f3t75phzsc5bHHGC 2859XRmbxBlF3xpSPCAuDFavD0N09rcCuxjEm8tH9gOhehltDSTrMDa4zZ8v+e5u O387oM+yivjWkr0NUYhuwklcB2CSe74gdlEka2u/HaUwSJtGP4d200B5Q3SE6zft 29Qdnlt3516K4zroHVFpoh+DEhvxdJHRH0uMigG7s159SqAALsNxw4nWhngqtSAV Gfgv1uvkKfrzdqexx7iynTY9Xtf3Yh//f7vwxfJFaPR0Altj4aa/gN9h1I32KyMW 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[IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A6FDA2CD18; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:00:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexmcwhirter@triadic.us) Received: from SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US (smtp.tech.triadic.us [98.102.61.98]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECF3C17C5; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:00:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexmcwhirter@triadic.us) Received: from localhost (unknown [10.128.0.32]) by SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3BC1040681; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:53:10 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at Tech.Triadic.US Received: from SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US ([IPv6:::ffff:10.128.0.24]) by localhost (Milter1.Tech.Triadic.US [IPv6:::ffff:10.128.0.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id jZLD4M9QBgTK; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:53:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.0.185] (cpe-24-29-169-98.cinci.res.rr.com [24.29.169.98]) by SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B70921040434; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:52:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 09:00:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <64302b19-9f33-4267-af44-7fc30ea4bf3d@email.android.com> X-Android-Message-ID: <64302b19-9f33-4267-af44-7fc30ea4bf3d@email.android.com> In-Reply-To: <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> From: Alex McWhirter To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Warner Losh , Sean Bruno , freebsd-arch , sparc64@freebsd.org, Anna Wilcox , Marius Strobl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:00:42 -0000 VGhlIGRpZmZlcmVuY2UgYmV0d2VlbiBtb3N0IG9mIHRoZSBkaXNjb250aW51ZWQgYXJjaGl0ZWN0 dXJlcyBhbmQgU1BBUkMgaXMgdGhhdCBPcmFjbGUgaXMgc2hvd2luZyBtb3JlIGFuZCBtb3JlIGlu 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dGhpcyBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmU/wqAgVGhlIG9sZCBhZGFnZSBhYm91dCDigJxwaWNraW5nIHlvdXIg YmF0dGxlc+KAnSBhcHBsaWVzIGhlcmUsIG5vIG1hdHRlciBob3cgZW50aHVzaWFzdGljIHRoZSBz bWFsbCBjb21tdW5pdHkgb2YgcmVtYWluaW5nIFNQQVJDIHVzZXJzIG1pZ2h0IGJlLCB3aGljaCBp cyB3aHkgSSBhbSByaXNraW5nIGxpZ2h0bmluZyBib2x0cyBvZiB3cmF0aCBmcm9tIFNQQVJDIHpl YWxvdHMgaW4gZXZlbiBkYXJpbmcgdG8gYXNrIHRoZSBxdWVzdGlvbi4gOi0pCj4KPiBUaGFua3Ms Cj4KPiAtIEpvcmRhbgo+Cj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX18KPiBmcmVlYnNkLXNwYXJjNjRAZnJlZWJzZC5vcmcgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Cj4gaHR0 cHM6Ly9saXN0cy5mcmVlYnNkLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2ZyZWVic2Qtc3BhcmM2NAo+ IFRvIHVuc3Vic2NyaWJlLCBzZW5kIGFueSBtYWlsIHRvICJmcmVlYnNkLXNwYXJjNjQtdW5zdWJz Y3JpYmVAZnJlZWJzZC5vcmci From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 14:22:51 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1355DA2B0F4 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:22:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F01941045 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:22:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id ECB91A2B0F2; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:22:50 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB421A2B0F1; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:22:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) Received: from hades.sorbs.net (mail.sorbs.net [67.231.146.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98B61044; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:22:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from isux.com (firewall.isux.com [213.165.190.213]) by hades.sorbs.net (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.29.0 64bit (built Jul 9 2013)) with ESMTPSA id <0NXN00I7XMWRLM00@hades.sorbs.net>; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 06:29:19 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <56434F34.6040707@sorbs.net> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:22:44 +0100 From: Michelle Sullivan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.24) Gecko/20100301 SeaMonkey/1.1.19 To: Alex McWhirter Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Anna Wilcox , freebsd-arch , sparc64@freebsd.org, Sean Bruno , Marius Strobl , Warner Losh Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 References: <64302b19-9f33-4267-af44-7fc30ea4bf3d@email.android.com> In-reply-to: <64302b19-9f33-4267-af44-7fc30ea4bf3d@email.android.com> X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:22:51 -0000 Alex McWhirter wrote: > The difference between most of the discontinued architectures and SPARC is that Oracle is showing more and more interest in developing their SPARC platform. Problem is they are killing it off with the business model. > If you consider the arm port, when it comes to alternative operating systems it probably has even a smaller market share than sparc. Isn't the Raspberry PI ARM? (mind you FreeBSD would have to try and catch up to Linux for that one - though it (the platform) is popular.) > I've sat in on my own fair share of Oracle meetings over the past few months, and they are doing everything in their power to push their customers on sparc and Solaris. > > They should consider what worked for Sun and what has killed their market share off. My experience has been in the past that Sun hardware had a massive following on the secondhand market... Oracle pretty much killed it... and along with it went the admins. I used to admin as part of teams datacenters full of Sun boxes, now I don't know where I can even find a datacenter with a Sun/Oracle box in it - except mine... and all mine are being depreciated. FreeBSD has an opportunity to fill the void in the secondhand Oracle (Sun) Hardware market if people want to take it.... but I seriously don't see why anyone would buy new Oracle boxes and shove FreeBSD on them - unless their admins already manage FreeBSD on older + Intel hardware. -- Michelle Sullivan http://www.mhix.org/ From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 15:29:05 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFE6A2C180 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:29:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2E71644 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:29:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id AADCEA2C17E; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:29:05 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 906FBA2C17D; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:29:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x244.google.com (mail-ig0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B90E1643; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:29:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by igcqf20 with SMTP id qf20so3545586igc.0; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 07:29:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Y2DS7Hf+Bf1NXd9iBy2CRpUyaidco158z4IuzkcuKl0=; b=breTa14v3ucwp82fQq+8n4P/rlY5Gb6S7TBSkQfifTsut/RCv13flXXBVqB1tv4/st taJtPUcq2E7gxiVH5UGvBaqeSyWi15q4ecpo352NVvdotPSGBzSQTDcKmre81ylhK2v9 +vwi1IVKHrx7kLhZvFApj+5JFgYFVJaawl5gvwrfArAV+SvsKJ8Eee3HDcveBW0hScb5 6LRWqsT1Jq1WXrTEwFs60pADg06zT8J4ti9mOQjcabADxI3QVaMOUFGdHTD8e+34wUNe VopfqCsAH6b5PWAamEq+u8CumlHugH/3T5NePG+G9FVkkXtqXZkrE7OkB8xTF9S1myxB JvnQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.73.228 with SMTP id o4mr32978267igv.37.1447255744649; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 07:29:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.217.196 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 07:29:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <56434F34.6040707@sorbs.net> References: <64302b19-9f33-4267-af44-7fc30ea4bf3d@email.android.com> <56434F34.6040707@sorbs.net> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 07:29:04 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 From: Adrian Chadd To: Michelle Sullivan Cc: Alex McWhirter , Anna Wilcox , freebsd-arch , sparc64@freebsd.org, Sean Bruno , Warner Losh , Marius Strobl , Jordan Hubbard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:29:06 -0000 On 11 November 2015 at 06:22, Michelle Sullivan wrote: > Alex McWhirter wrote: >> The difference between most of the discontinued architectures and SPARC is that Oracle is showing more and more interest in developing their SPARC platform. > > Problem is they are killing it off with the business model. > >> If you consider the arm port, when it comes to alternative operating systems it probably has even a smaller market share than sparc. > > Isn't the Raspberry PI ARM? (mind you FreeBSD would have to try and > catch up to Linux for that one - though it (the platform) is popular.) > > >> I've sat in on my own fair share of Oracle meetings over the past few months, and they are doing everything in their power to push their customers on sparc and Solaris. >> >> > They should consider what worked for Sun and what has killed their > market share off. > > My experience has been in the past that Sun hardware had a massive > following on the secondhand market... Oracle pretty much killed it... > and along with it went the admins. I used to admin as part of teams > datacenters full of Sun boxes, now I don't know where I can even find a > datacenter with a Sun/Oracle box in it - except mine... and all mine are > being depreciated. > > > FreeBSD has an opportunity to fill the void in the secondhand Oracle > (Sun) Hardware market if people want to take it.... but I seriously > don't see why anyone would buy new Oracle boxes and shove FreeBSD on > them - unless their admins already manage FreeBSD on older + Intel hardware. > As always, someone has to write and debug the code. Users are only as good as the revenue to generate to cover development/debugging/deployment costs. So if you're a sparc64 user, how much would you be willing to pay for freebsd/sparc64 support and development? I'm all for keeping an architecture like sparc around, as long as there's active development and active users. MIPS has both. ARM has both. Powerpc has both. Sparc is missing some active developers, but it has plenty of FreeBSD users that speak up (and more users that only speak up privately.) So, if you want to see sparc64 support continue, this requires a grass roots effort to get more development happening - either users need to step up, or someone has to start contributing money. -adrian From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 16:07:43 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA020A2CBDA for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:07:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bmcgover@cisco.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C12B1C49 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:07:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bmcgover@cisco.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 8B396A2CBD8; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:07:43 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9E6A2CBD7; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:07:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bmcgover@cisco.com) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher IDEA-CBC-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "alln-iport.cisco.com", Issuer "HydrantID SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 333851C48; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:07:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bmcgover@cisco.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5509; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447258063; x=1448467663; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=2yMrpUDoa3XlR2OyDVRlfBUYMb5Pn1xjTY5ijJc//tY=; b=NqRB2jJw+i135/6zfYH/jycRflG7CKIPXSPb2/PidFbrjec3X/4bff3X J4OWj2/5Biq5Swq3/AOs1wGrb/YaAbtrfyvzBuDf8sJQZroax+jlRl+/6 XRLpjQC3dgEMNANC2ixeEo5Z7oMaZaxwi4py+hQsURi7+VSvJqi4mgud5 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BLBQCDZkNW/5NdJa1egztTbwbADxcKhSVKAoFFOxEBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQMBAQEBSyALBQsCAQgOAwEDAQEBLicBCQEXBggCBAEHBgEEAQcMBQQEiAUIDcRUAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFASGVIN4gQaEOwEBAQQJDoRgBZZIAYUchR+CY4FilniDcQE3LIIRHYFWcgeEBwcXI4EHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,276,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="207281183" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Nov 2015 16:07:36 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-002.cisco.com (xch-rtp-002.cisco.com [64.101.220.142]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tABG7ZUn016338 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:07:36 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com (64.101.220.145) by XCH-RTP-002.cisco.com (64.101.220.142) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:07:35 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) by XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com ([64.101.220.145]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:07:35 -0500 From: "Brian McGovern (bmcgover)" To: Jordan Hubbard , Warner Losh CC: Marius Strobl , Anna Wilcox , "sparc64@freebsd.org" , "Sean Bruno" , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Thread-Topic: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Thread-Index: AQHRGj3TBhRT1Czn10uKLkw9qAAqPJ6SsdyAgAJMRgCAAawjAIAAEQIAgABGZRk= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:07:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> , <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> In-Reply-To: <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.86.241.121] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:07:43 -0000 I have to step in on Jordan's side on this one. As a recently-former lab ad= min (June), we were - and I assume continue to - chucking Sun Sparc hardwar= e as fast as we can EOL the products which run on the platform, and to the = best of my knowledge, we haven't bought new gear since Oracle bought Sun. I= think I still have an SB150 sitting in a closet collecting dust for the em= ergency case which is predestined to emergency at some point, but we're not= even considering giving the boxes another life as second tier hardware - t= he x86/64 space offers far superior metrics in terms of price/performance/s= upport/replacement parts. This, of course, means that our customers will be eventually follow suit as= they do their next round of upgrades. While this means there will be a ton= of Sparc64 hardware around at low prices, I have no doubt it'll be a niche= community, like BETAMAX, Laserdisc, and HD-DVD before... If there is someone who loves this platform enough to keep it going single-= handedly, or nearly so, that's one thing. If the discussion is to divert pr= oject resources to keep it alive just because its one more platform, I have= a laundry list of things that I suspect will have a bigger impact on the b= roader x86 (and even ARM) community; then again, I expect just about everyo= ne has such a list. -B ________________________________________ From: owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org = on behalf of Jordan Hubbard Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 1:55:38 AM To: Warner Losh Cc: Marius Strobl; Anna Wilcox; sparc64@freebsd.org; Sean Bruno; freebsd-ar= ch Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about S= parc64 > On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:54 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > sparc64 is the odd-man out currently. However, even if clang doesn't > work, the gcc external toolchain works well for other platforms. If it ma= kes > sprac64 more viable, then so much the better. Hi Warner, I hate to be a voice of pragmatism here when we=92re having so much fun dis= cussing it from an architectural perspective, but=85 What=92s the actual goal (from a future market relevance perspective) of pu= tting resources, any resources, into sparc64? I think that=92s the key que= stion that needs to get asked and answered here since we all know that: 1) FreeBSD is not NetBSD - it has never historically supported =93x86 alter= native architectures=94 just because they existed and might be technically = interesting to port to, there had to be some sort of user community numbers= to justify the time and energy expended for the project as a whole (and ev= en in an all-volunteer driven project, there is simply no such thing as =93= free=94 - everything has a cost somewhere). As phk noted earlier in the thread, the ALPHA port was an exception to this= rule simply because it was the first-ever 64 bit port for FreeBSD and we k= new it would buy us some much-needed 64 bit cleanliness, but it also fell o= ff the support roadmap and into the history books once ALPHA=92s market rel= evance had clearly ended. NetBSD/alpha still exists, all the way up to and including NetBSD 7.0, beca= use their slogan is =93Of course it runs NetBSD.=94 Again, FreeBSD !=3D N= etBSD. The emphasis on market share is and always has been a key different= iator for FreeBSD and part of both its own slogans and mission statement. 2) Sparc64 global market share has declined significantly since Oracle purc= hased Sun, leaving Oracle and Fujitsu as the only two significant players i= n that market. Sure, putting =93old equipment to work=94 is also always a = tempting objective, but it=92s one that really requires viewing through an = objective lens since the perspective of someone who owns said "old equipmen= t" is rather more biased than the perspective of the market as a whole. Th= e market as a whole appears to consist (in terms of global server market sh= are): HP (x64) 27.6% IBM (x64) 22.9% DELL (x64) 16.4% All others (x64): 24% (combined estimate, including Cisco and Huawei) Total: 90.9% [ Source: Gartner ] That leaves 9.1% for the rest of the server industry, which includes Itaniu= m, POWER4 and SPARC64. We can also probably safely assume that even among= st that tiny 9% pie slice, vendors are focused on the future since their ov= erall market share is declining (about 5% annually), which begs the questio= n: Is FreeBSD/SPARC64 aiming at the T5, even while Oracle themselves are s= hifting emphasis to lower-cost x64 systems for which FreeBSD is already com= petitive, or is it really just trying to keep some older collection of incr= easingly power/performance inefficient (by comparison) alive? Again, what=92s the long-term goal of supporting this architecture? The ol= d adage about =93picking your battles=94 applies here, no matter how enthus= iastic the small community of remaining SPARC users might be, which is why = I am risking lightning bolts of wrath from SPARC zealots in even daring to = ask the question. :-) Thanks, - Jordan _______________________________________________ freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-sparc64 To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-sparc64-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 16:32:45 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B57A2C306 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:32:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jau789@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FA921397 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:32:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jau789@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 2CC56A2C304; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:32:45 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C393A2C302; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:32:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jau789@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x232.google.com (mail-wm0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C72B11396; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:32:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jau789@gmail.com) Received: by wmvv187 with SMTP id v187so64066232wmv.1; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:32:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=W63TpRQgiN2SM7t49g1Qoh/S15MOE1DTG9r1yLeXz6g=; b=xz+wTtU9qWZVnRlyzKveGrxpe0dBAUIvGjJx7vyQTHLgDJ78nmygLTokXrUGcGvrqX YIXAoiCG1crVkcxoXiGHh24+EWhF3Of6S8ZgEG/Pi7SoRfw27dO14sAEdQ7zof4gqcPt +cQ23BbpIcyuVFxbJMhn2XnCgF8HHzzAAIf+iY96c0N3oqpqEhswbSgedKn+UEgbgdNO UMRH2ybBpah8HLColZ405AbgBtVcdJExy80s0vJxC6ivmQ9TP9U5KFSIWJXSTMFLup4T x2zwPhE5RnhxrPPtNab+CmLP+REfEtN4hTa89Gvki/uBnfO5yZN3WYUKWz26BO019OWa z5Zw== X-Received: by 10.194.209.195 with SMTP id mo3mr10715346wjc.16.1447259563141; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:32:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.193] (xdsl-205-163.nblnetworks.fi. [83.145.205.163]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v191sm26052997wmd.24.2015.11.11.08.32.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:32:42 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 From: Jukka Ukkonen X-Mailer: iPad Mail (13B143) In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:32:37 +0200 Cc: Michelle Sullivan , Anna Wilcox , freebsd-arch , Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , Jordan Hubbard , sparc64@freebsd.org, Warner Losh Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <64302b19-9f33-4267-af44-7fc30ea4bf3d@email.android.com> <56434F34.6040707@sorbs.net> To: Adrian Chadd X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:32:45 -0000 > I'm all for keeping an architecture like sparc around, as long as > there's active development and active users. MIPS has both. ARM has > both. Powerpc has both. Sparc is missing some active developers, but > it has plenty of FreeBSD users that speak up (and more users that only > speak up privately.) So, if you want to see sparc64 support continue, > this requires a grass roots effort to get more development happening - > either users need to step up, or someone has to start contributing > money. Right, I am one of those who until now have only said something privately. So, I think it is time for me to say this on a bit more public forum. I could test something for sparc64 when I have a suitable moment. I have an idle V240 which I intended to be a compatibility test system anyhow. I cannot promise to do much of active development, though. Obviously some compatibility patches now and then is not going to be a problem. This being a hobby only for me and my real daily life being elsewhere, most of the heavy lifting would have to be done by others. I like the idea, though, that the sparc64 MMU keeps one on tip-toe with the memory alignment. In fact I see that as the biggest benefit in saving freebsd/sparc64. Additionally there is the admittedly very small possibility that Oracle might change its mind about how to position the hardware on the market, if several open OS environments keep the architecture supported to some level. So, if you accept little occasional help with testing and patching, I'm in. --jau From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 17:34:52 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77601A2CF44 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:34:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DCB0144C for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:34:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 5BC33A2CF42; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:34:52 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40597A2CF41; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:34:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) Received: from hades.sorbs.net (mail.sorbs.net [67.231.146.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BABE144A; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:34:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from isux.com (firewall.isux.com [213.165.190.213]) by hades.sorbs.net (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.29.0 64bit (built Jul 9 2013)) with ESMTPSA id <0NXN00I9KVSSLM00@hades.sorbs.net>; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 09:41:21 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <56437C34.5050603@sorbs.net> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:34:44 +0100 From: Michelle Sullivan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.24) Gecko/20100301 SeaMonkey/1.1.19 To: Adrian Chadd Cc: Alex McWhirter , Anna Wilcox , freebsd-arch , sparc64@freebsd.org, Sean Bruno , Warner Losh , Marius Strobl , Jordan Hubbard Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 References: <64302b19-9f33-4267-af44-7fc30ea4bf3d@email.android.com> <56434F34.6040707@sorbs.net> In-reply-to: X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:34:52 -0000 Adrian Chadd wrote: > On 11 November 2015 at 06:22, Michelle Sullivan wrote: > >> Alex McWhirter wrote: >> >>> The difference between most of the discontinued architectures and SPARC is that Oracle is showing more and more interest in developing their SPARC platform. >>> >> Problem is they are killing it off with the business model. >> >> >>> If you consider the arm port, when it comes to alternative operating systems it probably has even a smaller market share than sparc. >>> >> Isn't the Raspberry PI ARM? (mind you FreeBSD would have to try and >> catch up to Linux for that one - though it (the platform) is popular.) >> >> >> >>> I've sat in on my own fair share of Oracle meetings over the past few months, and they are doing everything in their power to push their customers on sparc and Solaris. >>> >>> >>> >> They should consider what worked for Sun and what has killed their >> market share off. >> >> My experience has been in the past that Sun hardware had a massive >> following on the secondhand market... Oracle pretty much killed it... >> and along with it went the admins. I used to admin as part of teams >> datacenters full of Sun boxes, now I don't know where I can even find a >> datacenter with a Sun/Oracle box in it - except mine... and all mine are >> being depreciated. >> >> >> FreeBSD has an opportunity to fill the void in the secondhand Oracle >> (Sun) Hardware market if people want to take it.... but I seriously >> don't see why anyone would buy new Oracle boxes and shove FreeBSD on >> them - unless their admins already manage FreeBSD on older + Intel hardware. >> >> > > As always, someone has to write and debug the code. > Generally I can debug (and I can write some) code, and am happy to do so, however, my experience of code for hardware... a big fat zero (unless you count writing printer drivers in z80 and 6502 for personal (home) computers back in the 80's :) )... my experience of Sparc32/64 that sits under the C compiler... another big fat zero... However I'm happy to help if I can. > Users are only as good as the revenue to generate to cover > development/debugging/deployment costs. > > So if you're a sparc64 user, how much would you be willing to pay for > freebsd/sparc64 support and development? > My FreeBSD Sparc64 in current use is: A RADIUS server running on a T1 A not finished build server where I was going to integrate it into my local Jenkins and build packages... however when I found very little support and the whole "you will run pkgng whether you want to or not" shit went off I stopped working on it and build my own ports tree that currently builds both old style and new style packages - and was uptodate as of August (had a couple of hardware failures locally that has prevented me on keeping up from August.) > I'm all for keeping an architecture like sparc around, as long as > there's active development and active users. MIPS has both. ARM has > both. Powerpc has both. Sparc is missing some active developers, but > it has plenty of FreeBSD users that speak up (and more users that only > speak up privately.) So, if you want to see sparc64 support continue, > this requires a grass roots effort to get more development happening - > either users need to step up, or someone has to start contributing > money. > > There is currently Zero chance of getting any money for development from $employer - pkgng ensured that - in fact with the exception of my machines nothing is running FreeBSD @ $employer now... such is life. Regards, -- Michelle Sullivan http://www.mhix.org/ From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 18:46:21 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A65A2C65A for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:46:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4411EA5 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:46:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 582AFA2C657; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:46:21 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DF70A2C656; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:46:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from bigwig.baldwin.cx (bigwig.baldwin.cx [IPv6:2001:470:1f11:75::1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1518B1EA4; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:46:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from ralph.baldwin.cx (c-73-231-226-104.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [73.231.226.104]) by bigwig.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 567A4B9A8; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:46:19 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Cc: "Brian McGovern (bmcgover)" , Jordan Hubbard , Warner Losh , Anna Wilcox , "sparc64@freebsd.org" , Sean Bruno , Marius Strobl Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 10:32:08 -0800 Message-ID: <4004425.K7Etsx0SLe@ralph.baldwin.cx> User-Agent: KMail/4.14.3 (FreeBSD/10.2-STABLE; KDE/4.14.3; amd64; ; ) In-Reply-To: References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (bigwig.baldwin.cx); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:46:19 -0500 (EST) X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:46:21 -0000 On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 04:07:35 PM Brian McGovern wrote: > I have to step in on Jordan's side on this one. As a recently-former lab admin (June), we were - and I assume continue to - chucking Sun Sparc hardware as fast as we can EOL the products which run on the platform, and to the best of my knowledge, we haven't bought new gear since Oracle bought Sun. I think I still have an SB150 sitting in a closet collecting dust for the emergency case which is predestined to emergency at some point, but we're not even considering giving the boxes another life as second tier hardware - the x86/64 space offers far superior metrics in terms of price/performance/support/replacement parts. > > This, of course, means that our customers will be eventually follow suit as they do their next round of upgrades. While this means there will be a ton of Sparc64 hardware around at low prices, I have no doubt it'll be a niche community, like BETAMAX, Laserdisc, and HD-DVD before... > > If there is someone who loves this platform enough to keep it going single-handedly, or nearly so, that's one thing. If the discussion is to divert project resources to keep it alive just because its one more platform, I have a laundry list of things that I suspect will have a bigger impact on the broader x86 (and even ARM) community; then again, I expect just about everyone has such a list. This last question is an important one I think. What is the actual cost to the project to let sparc64 remain Tier-2? That means we aren't committed to building packages, so that mostly lets Sean off the hook. The biggest hang up I can see is the question of toolchain. On the question of toolchain I think GCC 4.2 continues to become incredibly less useful. If we could have an 11 without GCC 4.2 that would be ideal. However, clang is only production-viable on x86 right now. Even lldb doesn't work on i386 and only works on amd64. If your argument for tossing sparc64 is GCC 4.2 then if you are logically consistent you have to toss a whole lot of other stuff as well. (Even clang on amd64 is still using binutils ld) Realistically I think FreeBSD needs to support two sets of toolchains: clang and modern (GPLv3) GCC/binutils. I think it is a laudable goal to have the option of a GPL-free base system, but I think we should also make it an option to use a modern GCC toolchain. For platforms that depend on GCC 4.2 I think we should be moving them to using newer GCC in some fashion. That is relevant for several architectures that we definitely want to keep going forward, not just sparc64, and it's a problem we need to solve regardless. Once that is addressed it is not clear to me what drain on project resources sparc64 is. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 19:35:39 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8F3A2B6E9 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:35:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F2F1C67 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:35:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 0798BA2B6E7; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:35:39 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05305A2B6E6; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:35:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (gate2.funkthat.com [208.87.223.18]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gold.funkthat.com", Issuer "gold.funkthat.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B58A81C66; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:35:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gold.funkthat.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tABJZcLF008119 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:35:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by gold.funkthat.com (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id tABJZb7D008118; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:35:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:35:37 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Peter Jeremy Cc: Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-arch , sparc64@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <20151111193536.GU65715@funkthat.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <20151111084432.GC67251@server.rulingia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20151111084432.GC67251@server.rulingia.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 9.1-PRERELEASE amd64 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 54BA 873B 6515 3F10 9E88 9322 9CB1 8F74 6D3F A396 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html X-TipJar: bitcoin:13Qmb6AeTgQecazTWph4XasEsP7nGRbAPE X-to-the-FBI-CIA-and-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? can i haz chizburger? User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (gold.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:35:38 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:35:39 -0000 Peter Jeremy wrote this message on Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 19:44 +1100: > On 2015-Nov-10 22:55:38 -0800, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > >Again, what???s the long-term goal of supporting this architecture? > > The things that sparc64 give us that x86 doesn't are big-endian and > strict alignment. In theory, MIPS, PPC and ARM can give us both of > those but I'm non sure whether we actually have any big-endian > variants of them. I'm running an ARMv4 BE machine (AVILA board), and a MIPS64 BE machine, the EdgeRouter Lite... FreeBSD avila.funkthat.com 11.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT #3 r283010M: Sun May 17 10:16:08 PDT 2015 jmg@carbon.funkthat.com:/a/obj/arm.armeb/a/home/jmg/FreeBSD.svn/HEAD/sys/AVILA arm FreeBSD erl.funkthat.com 11.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT #0 r289393M: Thu Oct 15 17:02:12 PDT 2015 jmg@carbon.funkthat.com:/a/obj/mips.mips64/a/home/jmg/FreeBSD.svn/HEAD/sys/ERL mips -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 20:17:47 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBADDA2A166 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:17:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B9A132F for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:17:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id C9284A2A165; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:17:46 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B30A2A164 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:17:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net (bsdtec.plus.com [84.92.41.141]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70175132E; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:17:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C771A5C8; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:17:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net ([172.16.32.2]) by localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id 8yoIhcVCDbGx; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:17:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BA11A5A4; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:17:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at bsdtec.net Received: from mx.bsdtec.net ([172.16.32.2]) by localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id zHJdE1-YgsV5; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:17:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D12C21A599; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:17:32 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:17:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Craig Butler To: John Baldwin Cc: Sean Bruno , Anna Wilcox , Marius Strobl , Jordan Hubbard , sparc64@freebsd.org, Warner Losh Message-ID: <1411902059.696.1447273047281.JavaMail.craig@w520> In-Reply-To: <4004425.K7Etsx0SLe@ralph.baldwin.cx> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <4004425.K7Etsx0SLe@ralph.baldwin.cx> Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [172.16.32.3] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.4_GA_5718 (Zimbra Desktop/7.2.7_12059_Windows) Thread-Topic: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Thread-Index: iNIe1Ouj5UljLZe4Or+N7985X0SVFQ== X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:17:47 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Baldwin" > To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org > Cc: "Anna Wilcox" , "Marius Strobl" , "Sean Bruno" > , "Jordan Hubbard" , sparc64@freebsd.org, "Warner Losh" > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November, 2015 6:32:08 PM > Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 > > On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 04:07:35 PM Brian McGovern wrote: > > I have to step in on Jordan's side on this one. As a > > recently-former lab admin (June), we were - and I assume continue > > to - chucking Sun Sparc hardware as fast as we can EOL the > > products which run on the platform, and to the best of my > > knowledge, we haven't bought new gear since Oracle bought Sun. I > > think I still have an SB150 sitting in a closet collecting dust > > for the emergency case which is predestined to emergency at some > > point, but we're not even considering giving the boxes another > > life as second tier hardware - the x86/64 space offers far > > superior metrics in terms of price/performance/support/replacement > > parts. > > > > This, of course, means that our customers will be eventually follow > > suit as they do their next round of upgrades. While this means > > there will be a ton of Sparc64 hardware around at low prices, I > > have no doubt it'll be a niche community, like BETAMAX, Laserdisc, > > and HD-DVD before... > > > > If there is someone who loves this platform enough to keep it going > > single-handedly, or nearly so, that's one thing. If the discussion > > is to divert project resources to keep it alive just because its > > one more platform, I have a laundry list of things that I suspect > > will have a bigger impact on the broader x86 (and even ARM) > > community; then again, I expect just about everyone has such a > > list. > > This last question is an important one I think. What is the actual > cost to > the project to let sparc64 remain Tier-2? That means we aren't > committed to > building packages, so that mostly lets Sean off the hook. > > The biggest hang up I can see is the question of toolchain. > > On the question of toolchain I think GCC 4.2 continues to become > incredibly > less useful. If we could have an 11 without GCC 4.2 that would be > ideal. > However, clang is only production-viable on x86 right now. Even lldb > doesn't > work on i386 and only works on amd64. If your argument for tossing > sparc64 > is GCC 4.2 then if you are logically consistent you have to toss a > whole lot > of other stuff as well. (Even clang on amd64 is still using binutils > ld) > > Realistically I think FreeBSD needs to support two sets of > toolchains: > clang and modern (GPLv3) GCC/binutils. > > I think it is a laudable goal to have the option of a GPL-free base > system, > but I think we should also make it an option to use a modern GCC > toolchain. > > For platforms that depend on GCC 4.2 I think we should be moving them > to > using newer GCC in some fashion. That is relevant for several > architectures > that we definitely want to keep going forward, not just sparc64, and > it's a > problem we need to solve regardless. Once that is addressed it is > not clear > to me what drain on project resources sparc64 is. > > -- > John Baldwin > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-sparc64 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-sparc64-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Just to raise something else as well, port maintainers seem hesitant to push sparc64 fixes in. I have raised a few fixes PR (specifically around the compat[789]x ports) that are still open. There are also some other PR's open that could do with more experienced eyes to help. It would be a shame to see sparc64@ killed off on FreeBSD. I would be keen to keep working on it if someone want a n00b under their wing. Kind Regards Craig Butler From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 20:22:58 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6108BA2A2E9 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:22:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2F81764 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:22:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 47800A2A2E6; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:22:58 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462C6A2A2E5 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:22:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [66.135.54.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F8911761; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:22:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 1A22656083; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:22:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:22:57 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: Craig Butler Cc: John Baldwin , Anna Wilcox , Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , Jordan Hubbard , sparc64@freebsd.org, Warner Losh Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <20151111202257.GB6857@lonesome.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <4004425.K7Etsx0SLe@ralph.baldwin.cx> <1411902059.696.1447273047281.JavaMail.craig@w520> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1411902059.696.1447273047281.JavaMail.craig@w520> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:22:58 -0000 On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 08:17:32PM +0000, Craig Butler wrote: > Just to raise something else as well, port maintainers seem hesitant > to push sparc64 fixes in. They don't have an effective way to test them. All they can test for is the no-regression case on the hardware they have access to. mcl From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 20:25:04 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D633DA2A316 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:25:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2AF217AB for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:25:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id B0273A2A315; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:25:04 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEBDDA2A314 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:25:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net (bsdtec.plus.com [84.92.41.141]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6256F17A8; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:25:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9648B1A6BC; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:25:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net ([172.16.32.2]) by localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id 4cvu6psIG5aG; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:24:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80511A6B3; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:24:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at bsdtec.net Received: from mx.bsdtec.net ([172.16.32.2]) by localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id bdeSIIAtvmo2; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:24:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 968461A6A6; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:24:52 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:24:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Craig Butler To: Mark Linimon Cc: John Baldwin , Anna Wilcox , Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , Jordan Hubbard , sparc64@freebsd.org, Warner Losh Message-ID: <1579598482.702.1447273490797.JavaMail.craig@w520> In-Reply-To: <20151111202257.GB6857@lonesome.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <4004425.K7Etsx0SLe@ralph.baldwin.cx> <1411902059.696.1447273047281.JavaMail.craig@w520> <20151111202257.GB6857@lonesome.com> Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [172.16.32.3] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.0.4_GA_5718 (Zimbra Desktop/7.2.7_12059_Windows) Thread-Topic: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Thread-Index: OYDg0EGsYLzNnBOlFW9gWPTaSiyOyQ== X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:25:04 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Linimon" > To: "Craig Butler" > Cc: "John Baldwin" , "Anna Wilcox" , "Marius Strobl" > , "Sean Bruno" , "Jordan Hubbard" , > sparc64@freebsd.org, "Warner Losh" > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November, 2015 8:22:57 PM > Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 08:17:32PM +0000, Craig Butler wrote: > > Just to raise something else as well, port maintainers seem > > hesitant > > to push sparc64 fixes in. > > They don't have an effective way to test them. All they can test for > is the no-regression case on the hardware they have access to. > > mcl > Can we as a Tier 2 community build them something ?? CB From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 21:53:41 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB4AA2C7E6 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 21:53:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nwhitehorn@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32A2135B for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 21:53:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nwhitehorn@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 9E252A2C7E2; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 21:53:41 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C7F9A2C7E1; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 21:53:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nwhitehorn@freebsd.org) Received: from c.mail.sonic.net (c.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84E36135A; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 21:53:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nwhitehorn@freebsd.org) Received: from aurora.physics.berkeley.edu (aurora.physics.berkeley.edu [128.32.117.67]) (authenticated bits=0) by c.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id tABLrXRP009005 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:53:34 -0800 Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 To: Peter Jeremy , Jordan Hubbard References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <20151111084432.GC67251@server.rulingia.com> Cc: freebsd-arch , sparc64@freebsd.org From: Nathan Whitehorn Message-ID: <5643B8DD.9060006@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:53:33 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151111084432.GC67251@server.rulingia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVZL+OFW00lKcfPzr49z89OjkjD/onNYVQIW/ySzc/mNVnl6xl2zT0xgOIY+kR8jcExqfClbMF6ftVu9axwXb4o55P/qZoqdCDI= X-Sonic-ID: C;XKxnp76I5RGUNL0U9jFv0A== M;SOO8p76I5RGUNL0U9jFv0A== X-Spam-Flag: No X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 21:53:41 -0000 We currently only support big-endian on PowerPC (32 and 64-bit). We might support little-endian PowerPC at some point -- Linux is moving in that direction -- but I'm not sure we have the userbase to warrant it. -Nathan On 11/11/15 00:44, Peter Jeremy wrote: > On 2015-Nov-10 22:55:38 -0800, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >> Again, what’s the long-term goal of supporting this architecture? > The things that sparc64 give us that x86 doesn't are big-endian and > strict alignment. In theory, MIPS, PPC and ARM can give us both of > those but I'm non sure whether we actually have any big-endian > variants of them. > From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 22:57:22 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD14A2C5B0 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:57:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4EE11DC for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:57:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 9944AA2C5AF; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:57:22 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E89A2C5AE for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:57:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (gate2.funkthat.com [208.87.223.18]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gold.funkthat.com", Issuer "gold.funkthat.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CE5411D9; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:57:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gold.funkthat.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tABMvImn010585 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:57:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by gold.funkthat.com (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id tABMvHtq010584; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:57:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:57:17 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Mark Linimon Cc: Craig Butler , Anna Wilcox , Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , Warner Losh , sparc64@freebsd.org, Jordan Hubbard Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <20151111225716.GV65715@funkthat.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <4004425.K7Etsx0SLe@ralph.baldwin.cx> <1411902059.696.1447273047281.JavaMail.craig@w520> <20151111202257.GB6857@lonesome.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20151111202257.GB6857@lonesome.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 9.1-PRERELEASE amd64 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 54BA 873B 6515 3F10 9E88 9322 9CB1 8F74 6D3F A396 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html X-TipJar: bitcoin:13Qmb6AeTgQecazTWph4XasEsP7nGRbAPE X-to-the-FBI-CIA-and-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? can i haz chizburger? User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (gold.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:57:18 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:57:22 -0000 Mark Linimon wrote this message on Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 14:22 -0600: > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 08:17:32PM +0000, Craig Butler wrote: > > Just to raise something else as well, port maintainers seem hesitant > > to push sparc64 fixes in. > > They don't have an effective way to test them. All they can test for > is the no-regression case on the hardware they have access to. I haven't seen many calls for test on the -sparc64 mailing list... For arches like sparc64, the only way to get patches is test on what hardware you have, and then commit, and hope it doesn't regress for others... Maybe we should have a sparc64 reviewers group created so that people that want to test patches can join, and provide test results.. There are already groups for arm, mips and powerpc.. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Wed Nov 11 23:55:12 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F879A2C5C8 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:55:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37937161D for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:55:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 328F4A2C5C6; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:55:12 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32283A2C5C5 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:55:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) Received: from hades.sorbs.net (mail.sorbs.net [67.231.146.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20097161C; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:55:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michelle@sorbs.net) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from isux.com (firewall.isux.com [213.165.190.213]) by hades.sorbs.net (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.29.0 64bit (built Jul 9 2013)) with ESMTPSA id <0NXO00M03DEL8200@hades.sorbs.net>; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:01:36 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <5643D556.9000908@sorbs.net> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 00:55:02 +0100 From: Michelle Sullivan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.24) Gecko/20100301 SeaMonkey/1.1.19 To: Mark Linimon Cc: Craig Butler , Anna Wilcox , Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , Warner Losh , sparc64@freebsd.org, Jordan Hubbard Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <4004425.K7Etsx0SLe@ralph.baldwin.cx> <1411902059.696.1447273047281.JavaMail.craig@w520> <20151111202257.GB6857@lonesome.com> In-reply-to: <20151111202257.GB6857@lonesome.com> X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:55:12 -0000 Mark Linimon wrote: > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 08:17:32PM +0000, Craig Butler wrote: > >> Just to raise something else as well, port maintainers seem hesitant >> to push sparc64 fixes in. >> > > They don't have an effective way to test them. All they can test for > is the no-regression case on the hardware they have access to. > I could (in theory - I have a metric shed load - well actually a 1966 build garage full - of everything from sparcstation 2's to E4500, Netras and v2xx servers though being sparc32 and sparc64 and no new stuff it would be relatively pointless putting more than one or 2 servers up) setup a redports like service to build ports - but there is the other issue of actually testing they work... if successfully built.. Regards, -- Michelle Sullivan http://www.mhix.org/ From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Thu Nov 12 01:01:11 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5342DA2BD05 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:01:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323A31294 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:01:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 31C5EA2BD04; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:01:11 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3158CA2BD02 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:01:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net (bsdtec.plus.com [84.92.41.141]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E076D1291; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:01:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from craig001@lerwick.hopto.org) Received: from localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3BB1965C; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:01:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.bsdtec.net ([172.16.32.2]) by localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id cCgGn38WD08d; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:00:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90AF19656; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:00:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at bsdtec.net Received: from mx.bsdtec.net ([172.16.32.2]) by localhost (mx.bsdtec.net [172.16.32.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id tJIzHvw9jxuY; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:00:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.114] (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by mx.bsdtec.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ED7F21964C; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:00:47 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <1447290046.3424.1.camel@atlas.lerwick.hopto.org> Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 From: Craig Butler To: John-Mark Gurney Cc: Mark Linimon , Anna Wilcox , Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , Warner Losh , sparc64@freebsd.org, Jordan Hubbard Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:00:46 +0000 In-Reply-To: <20151111225716.GV65715@funkthat.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <4004425.K7Etsx0SLe@ralph.baldwin.cx> <1411902059.696.1447273047281.JavaMail.craig@w520> <20151111202257.GB6857@lonesome.com> <20151111225716.GV65715@funkthat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.10.4-0ubuntu2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:01:11 -0000 > Maybe we should have a sparc64 reviewers group created so that people > that want to test patches can join, and provide test results.. There > are already groups for arm, mips and powerpc.. > sounds like a great idea, sign me up... next step none @freebsd.org access to phabricator to arc diffs up :) Regards Craig Butler From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Thu Nov 12 07:13:49 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EF18A2D26C for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:13:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexmcwhirter@triadic.us) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E580A1B07 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:13:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexmcwhirter@triadic.us) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id E4C9DA2D26A; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:13:48 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4380A2D269; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:13:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexmcwhirter@triadic.us) Received: from SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US (smtp.tech.triadic.us [98.102.61.98]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA04C1B06; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:13:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexmcwhirter@triadic.us) Received: from localhost (unknown [10.128.0.32]) by SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C2010406B9; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 02:06:20 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at Tech.Triadic.US Received: from SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US ([IPv6:::ffff:10.128.0.24]) by localhost (Milter1.Tech.Triadic.US [IPv6:::ffff:10.128.0.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id CDKtLGrlK0By; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 02:06:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from webmail.tech.triadic.us (unknown [10.128.0.56]) by SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4D7FA10405F3; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 02:06:19 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 02:06:19 -0500 From: alexmcwhirter@triadic.us To: Michelle Sullivan Cc: Mark Linimon , Anna Wilcox , Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , Jordan Hubbard , sparc64@freebsd.org, Warner Losh , owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 In-Reply-To: <5643D556.9000908@sorbs.net> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <4004425.K7Etsx0SLe@ralph.baldwin.cx> <1411902059.696.1447273047281.JavaMail.craig@w520> <20151111202257.GB6857@lonesome.com> <5643D556.9000908@sorbs.net> Message-ID: X-Sender: alexmcwhirter@triadic.us User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.0.5 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:13:49 -0000 On 2015-11-11 18:55, Michelle Sullivan wrote: > Mark Linimon wrote: >> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 08:17:32PM +0000, Craig Butler wrote: >> >>> Just to raise something else as well, port maintainers seem hesitant >>> to push sparc64 fixes in. >>> >> >> They don't have an effective way to test them. All they can test for >> is the no-regression case on the hardware they have access to. >> > > I could (in theory - I have a metric shed load - well actually a 1966 > build garage full - of everything from sparcstation 2's to E4500, > Netras > and v2xx servers though being sparc32 and sparc64 and no new stuff it > would be relatively pointless putting more than one or 2 servers up) > setup a redports like service to build ports - but there is the other > issue of actually testing they work... if successfully built.. > > Regards, I have access to a few newer machines that could also help with building. Particularly Sun4V T2 boxes and M series Fujitsu boxes. From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Thu Nov 12 07:32:50 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4CCA2D56B for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:32:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F1211A9 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:32:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id B1823A2D569; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:32:50 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1A5A2D568; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:32:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [66.135.54.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81C5611A7; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:32:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 2E98156083; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:32:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:32:49 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: alexmcwhirter@triadic.us Cc: Michelle Sullivan , Anna Wilcox , Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , Jordan Hubbard , sparc64@freebsd.org, Warner Losh , owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <20151112073249.GB19108@lonesome.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <4004425.K7Etsx0SLe@ralph.baldwin.cx> <1411902059.696.1447273047281.JavaMail.craig@w520> <20151111202257.GB6857@lonesome.com> <5643D556.9000908@sorbs.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:32:50 -0000 On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 02:06:19AM -0500, alexmcwhirter@triadic.us wrote: > I have access to a few newer machines that could also help with building. To reiterate (probably too much): - we currently have src support for sun4u, but not clang support. The latter blocks some forward progress for FreeBSD. - we do not currently have src support for sun4v, although some people have expressed an interest in the past few months. mcl From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Thu Nov 12 13:48:45 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0188A2C3DF for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:48:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexmcwhirter@triadic.us) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80C5E1A80 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:48:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexmcwhirter@triadic.us) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 7E513A2C3DD; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:48:45 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DC79A2C3DC; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:48:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexmcwhirter@triadic.us) Received: from SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US (smtp.tech.triadic.us [98.102.61.98]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C271A7F; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:48:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexmcwhirter@triadic.us) Received: from localhost (unknown [10.128.0.32]) by SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D7C310406BC; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:41:14 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at Tech.Triadic.US Received: from SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US ([IPv6:::ffff:10.128.0.24]) by localhost (Milter1.Tech.Triadic.US [IPv6:::ffff:10.128.0.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id BfuS6t2PsrtK; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:41:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from webmail.tech.triadic.us (unknown [10.128.0.56]) by SMTP.Tech.Triadic.US (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9B9111040441; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:41:11 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:41:11 -0500 From: alexmcwhirter@triadic.us To: Mark Linimon Cc: Michelle Sullivan , Anna Wilcox , Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , Jordan Hubbard , sparc64@freebsd.org, Warner Losh , owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 In-Reply-To: <20151112073249.GB19108@lonesome.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <4004425.K7Etsx0SLe@ralph.baldwin.cx> <1411902059.696.1447273047281.JavaMail.craig@w520> <20151111202257.GB6857@lonesome.com> <5643D556.9000908@sorbs.net> <20151112073249.GB19108@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <63a48cf3070f8714aa6f07eb95e732df@triadic.us> X-Sender: alexmcwhirter@triadic.us User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.0.5 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:48:45 -0000 On 2015-11-12 02:32, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 02:06:19AM -0500, alexmcwhirter@triadic.us > wrote: >> I have access to a few newer machines that could also help with >> building. > > To reiterate (probably too much): > > - we currently have src support for sun4u, but not clang support. The > latter blocks some forward progress for FreeBSD. > > - we do not currently have src support for sun4v, although some people > have expressed an interest in the past few months. > > mcl Yes, im aware of the state of sun4v. But i have the machines should someone want to take it on. I just have my hands tied will illumos at the moment. Also, i think Oracle does at least care somewhat about OSS, otherwise this https://oss.oracle.com/projects/linux-sparc/ wouldn't exist. As far as sun4v goes, it's almost identical to sun4u. Basically you just need to have drivers for the virtual devices, serial console would be the fist big one. Other than that, sun4u code should run with little to no changes. I believe the boot process is identical, but not 100% sure. From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Thu Nov 12 15:11:12 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74A2FA2C9D1 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:11:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9601A88 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:11:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 584EBA2C9CF; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:11:12 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55EF3A2C9CE; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:11:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [66.135.54.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244CF1A85; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:11:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id AC82156083; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:11:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:11:10 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: alexmcwhirter@triadic.us Cc: Michelle Sullivan , Anna Wilcox , Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , Jordan Hubbard , sparc64@freebsd.org, Warner Losh , owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <20151112151110.GA27759@lonesome.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <4004425.K7Etsx0SLe@ralph.baldwin.cx> <1411902059.696.1447273047281.JavaMail.craig@w520> <20151111202257.GB6857@lonesome.com> <5643D556.9000908@sorbs.net> <20151112073249.GB19108@lonesome.com> <63a48cf3070f8714aa6f07eb95e732df@triadic.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63a48cf3070f8714aa6f07eb95e732df@triadic.us> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:11:12 -0000 On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 08:41:11AM -0500, alexmcwhirter@triadic.us wrote: > As far as sun4v goes, it's almost identical to sun4u. Basically you just > need to have drivers for the virtual devices, serial console would be the > fist big one. Other than that, sun4u code should run with little to no > changes. My understanding was that the virtual memory hardware is different, and that is why our first effort to support sun4v stalled. mcl From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Thu Nov 12 17:32:42 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F6CA2D119 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:32:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1359177A for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:32:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id DFE79A2D118; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:32:41 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF744A2D117 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:32:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (gate2.funkthat.com [208.87.223.18]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gold.funkthat.com", Issuer "gold.funkthat.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9FBD1779; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:32:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gold.funkthat.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tACHWc3a027623 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:32:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by gold.funkthat.com (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id tACHWaOZ027622; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:32:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:32:36 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Craig Butler Cc: Mark Linimon , Anna Wilcox , Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , Warner Losh , sparc64@freebsd.org, Jordan Hubbard Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <20151112173236.GY65715@funkthat.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <4004425.K7Etsx0SLe@ralph.baldwin.cx> <1411902059.696.1447273047281.JavaMail.craig@w520> <20151111202257.GB6857@lonesome.com> <20151111225716.GV65715@funkthat.com> <1447290046.3424.1.camel@atlas.lerwick.hopto.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1447290046.3424.1.camel@atlas.lerwick.hopto.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 9.1-PRERELEASE amd64 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 54BA 873B 6515 3F10 9E88 9322 9CB1 8F74 6D3F A396 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html X-TipJar: bitcoin:13Qmb6AeTgQecazTWph4XasEsP7nGRbAPE X-to-the-FBI-CIA-and-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? can i haz chizburger? User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (gold.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:32:38 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:32:42 -0000 Craig Butler wrote this message on Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 01:00 +0000: > > > Maybe we should have a sparc64 reviewers group created so that people > > that want to test patches can join, and provide test results.. There > > are already groups for arm, mips and powerpc.. > > sounds like a great idea, sign me up... > next step none @freebsd.org access to phabricator to arc diffs up :) So, the group has been created: https://reviews.freebsd.org/project/view/63/ Just as a reminder, any user (not just FreeBSD developers) can sign up for Phabricator. See https://wiki.freebsd.org/CodeReview for more info. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Fri Nov 13 18:22:34 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF391A2E093 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:22:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mark.cave-ayland@ilande.co.uk) Received: from s16892447.onlinehome-server.info (s16892447.onlinehome-server.info [82.165.15.123]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78D281CE2; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:22:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mark.cave-ayland@ilande.co.uk) Received: from host31-50-169-61.range31-50.btcentralplus.com ([31.50.169.61] helo=[192.168.1.65]) by s16892447.onlinehome-server.info with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1ZxIzO-0003v3-Vh; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:22:24 +0000 Message-ID: <56462A41.4030707@ilande.co.uk> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:21:53 +0000 From: Mark Cave-Ayland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marius Strobl CC: Alexey Dokuchaev , "freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org" References: <20150913180126.GC7862@alchemy.franken.de> <55F89861.1030107@ilande.co.uk> <20150916031030.GA6711@FreeBSD.org> <55F9C2B8.7030605@ilande.co.uk> <20150916211914.GD18789@alchemy.franken.de> <20150917082817.GA71811@FreeBSD.org> <55FBB662.4080708@ilande.co.uk> <20150919211420.GK18789@alchemy.franken.de> <55FDEA3C.1010804@ilande.co.uk> <20150920043630.GA36162@FreeBSD.org> <20150922221404.GA81100@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8722.9050503@ilande.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <563F8722.9050503@ilande.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 31.50.169.61 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mark.cave-ayland@ilande.co.uk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on s16892447.onlinehome-server.info X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 Subject: Re: PCI range checking under qemu-system-sparc64 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:45:44 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on s16892447.onlinehome-server.info) X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:22:34 -0000 On 08/11/15 17:32, Mark Cave-Ayland wrote: > I now have a small patchset for QEMU git master that fixes the timer > issues (as well as implementing the NPT bit properly) and it gets to the > same point as you did above, so that's progress :) > > QEMU is currently in freeze in preparation for the next release, so > while the timer work won't be there for 2.5 in the meantime I shall tidy > them up and push to github. I should add that the ebus enumeration > patches related to the device tree properties (minus the addition of the > keyboard device that crashes Linux) are already upstream and will appear > in 2.5. FYI I've just posted my patches for upstream review at https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/qemu-devel/2015-11/msg03359.html for the adventurous/foolhardy ;) With the patches applied to QEMU git master I now see the same corruption that you did: $ ./qemu-system-sparc64 -cdrom sparc64.iso -boot d -nographic OpenBIOS for Sparc64 Configuration device id QEMU version 1 machine id 0 kernel cmdline CPUs: 1 x SUNW,UltraSPARC-IIi UUID: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 Welcome to OpenBIOS v1.1 built on Oct 27 2015 23:43 Type 'help' for detailed information Trying cdrom:f... Not a bootable ELF image Loading a.out image... Loaded 7680 bytes entry point is 0x4000 Jumping to entry point 0000000000004000 for type 0000000000000005... switching to new context: entry point 0x4000 stack 0x00000000ffe8aa09 >> FreeBSD/sparc64 boot block Boot path: /pci@1fe,0/pci-ata@5/ide1@8200/cdrom@0:f Boot loader: /boot/loader Consoles: Open Firmware console FreeBSD/sparc64 bootstrap loader, Revision 1.0 (mca@freebsd, Thu Sep 24 00:27:19 BST 2015) bootpath="/pci@1fe,0/pci-ata@5/ide1@8200/cdrom@0:a" Loading /boot/defaults/loader.conf /boot/kernel/kernel data=0xd893c0+0x20ffd8 syms=[0x8+0xdc578+0x8+0xcb349] \ Hit [Enter] to boot immediately, or any other key for command prompt. Booting [/boot/kernel/kernel]... jumping to kernel entry at 0xc00b0000. GDB: no debug ports present KDB: debugger backends: ddb KDB: current backend: ddb Copyright (c) 1992-2015 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation. FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT #0 1eb7424(master): Thu Sep 24 06:41:18 BST 2015 mca@freebsd:/usr/home/mca/obj/sparc64.sparc64/usr/home/mca/src/sys/GENERIC sparc64 gcc version 4.2.1 20070831 patched [FreeBSD] WARNING: WITNESS option enabled, expect reduced performance. VT: init without driver. real memory = 134217728 (128 MB) avail memory = 98312192 (93 MB) cpu0: Sun Microsystems UltraSparc-IIi Processor (100.00 MHz CPU) random: entropy device external interface kbd0 at kbdmux0 nexus0: nexus0: : incomplete pcib0: mem 0x1fe00000000-0x1fe01ffffff irq 2032,2030,2031,2021 on nexus0 pcib0: Sabre, impl 0, version 0, IGN 0x1f, bus A, 33MHz pcib0: DVMA map: 0xc0000000 to 0xc3ffffff 8192 entries pcib0: [GIANT-LOCKED] pci0: on pcib0 pcib1: at device 1.0 on pci0 pci1: on pcib1 pcib2: at device 1.1 on pci0 pci2: on pcib2 ebus0: port 0x4000-0x7fff mem 0x3000000-0x3ffffff at device 3.0 on pci0 vgapci0: mem 0x1000000-0x1ffffff,0x2000000-0x2000fff at device 2.0 on pci0 vgapci0: Boot video device eeprom0: addr 0x1400002000-0x1400003fff on ebus0 eeprom0: model mk48t59 ebus0: addr 0 (no driver attached) uart0: <16550 or compatible> addr 0x14000003f8-0x14000003ff irq 43 on ebus0 uart0: console (9600,n,8,1) ebus0: addr 0x1400000060-0x1400000067 (no driver attached) pci0: at device 4.0 (no driver attached) atapci0: port 0x8100-0x8107,0x8180-0x8183,0x8200-0x8207,0x8280-0x8283,0x8300-0x830f at device 5.0 on pci0 ata2: at channel 0 on atapci0 ata3: at channel 1 on atapci0 cryptosoft0: on nexus0 nexus0: type unknown (no driver attached) Timecounter "tick" frequency 100000000 Hz quality 1000 Event timer "tick" frequency 100000000 Hz quality 1000 Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec IPsec: Initialized Security Association Processing. cd0 at ata3 bus 0 scbus1 target 0 lun 0 cd0: Removable CD-ROM SCSI device cd0: Serial Number QM00003 cd0: 33.300MB/s transfers (UDMA2, ATAPI 12bytes, PIO 65534bytes) cd0: cd present [250560 x 2048 byte records] WARNING: WITNESS option enabled, expect reduced performance. Trying to mount root from cd9660:/dev/iso9660/TEST [ro]... [ thread pid 17 tid 100035 ] Stopped at tl1_trap+0x24: stx %o0, [%sp + 0x997] db> ATB, Mark. From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Fri Nov 13 18:36:40 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A850A2E28F for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:36:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from kenobi.freebsd.org (kenobi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::16:76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E98A41275 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:36:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from bugs.freebsd.org ([127.0.1.118]) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id tADIadkA096731 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:36:39 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) From: bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org To: freebsd-sparc64@FreeBSD.org Subject: [Bug 204527] openssl 1.0.2, when compiled WITH_ASM on sparc64 generates illegal instructions Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:36:39 +0000 X-Bugzilla-Reason: CC X-Bugzilla-Type: new X-Bugzilla-Watch-Reason: None X-Bugzilla-Product: Ports & Packages X-Bugzilla-Component: Individual Port(s) X-Bugzilla-Version: Latest X-Bugzilla-Keywords: X-Bugzilla-Severity: Affects Some People X-Bugzilla-Who: lidl@pix.net X-Bugzilla-Status: New X-Bugzilla-Priority: --- X-Bugzilla-Assigned-To: mat@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Target-Milestone: --- X-Bugzilla-Flags: maintainer-feedback? X-Bugzilla-Changed-Fields: bug_id short_desc product version rep_platform op_sys bug_status bug_severity priority component assigned_to reporter cc flagtypes.name Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Bugzilla-URL: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/ Auto-Submitted: auto-generated MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:36:40 -0000 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=204527 Bug ID: 204527 Summary: openssl 1.0.2, when compiled WITH_ASM on sparc64 generates illegal instructions Product: Ports & Packages Version: Latest Hardware: sparc64 OS: Any Status: New Severity: Affects Some People Priority: --- Component: Individual Port(s) Assignee: mat@FreeBSD.org Reporter: lidl@pix.net CC: freebsd-sparc64@FreeBSD.org Assignee: mat@FreeBSD.org CC: freebsd-sparc64@FreeBSD.org Flags: maintainer-feedback?(mat@FreeBSD.org) I recently installed a new 10/stable onto a sparc64 host (r290630). I configured the ports to use the openssl from ports, via having: WITH_OPENSSL_PORT=yes In my /etc/make.conf file. After I got openssl installed, I installed the bind 9.10 package too: ton# pkg info bind910 bind910-9.10.3_1 Name : bind910 Version : 9.10.3_1 Installed on : Thu Nov 12 22:41:05 EST 2015 Origin : dns/bind910 Architecture : freebsd:10:sparc64:64 Prefix : /usr/local Categories : net dns ipv6 Licenses : ISCL Maintainer : mat@FreeBSD.org WWW : https://www.isc.org/software/bind Comment : BIND DNS suite with updated DNSSEC and DNS64 [...] With the openssl port configured and compiled WITH_ASM, when I attempted to start named, it complained: ton# /usr/local/etc/rc.d/named start __sparc_utrap: fatal illegal instruction __sparc_utrap: fatal illegal instruction __sparc_utrap: fatal illegal instruction wrote key file "/usr/local/etc/namedb/rndc.key" __sparc_utrap: fatal illegal instruction __sparc_utrap: fatal illegal instruction __sparc_utrap: fatal illegal instruction Starting named. __sparc_utrap: fatal illegal instruction __sparc_utrap: fatal illegal instruction __sparc_utrap: fatal illegal instruction ton# ldd =named /usr/local/sbin/named: libcrypto.so.8 => /usr/local/lib/libcrypto.so.8 (0x4057e000) libxml2.so.2 => /usr/local/lib/libxml2.so.2 (0x4086a000) libz.so.6 => /lib/libz.so.6 (0x40af8000) libm.so.5 => /lib/libm.so.5 (0x40c0e000) libthr.so.3 => /lib/libthr.so.3 (0x40d74000) libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x40e9e000) liblzma.so.5 => /usr/lib/liblzma.so.5 (0x4115c000) I re-installed the openssl port, this time without the WITH_ASM setting. ton# /usr/local/etc/rc.d/named start Starting named. ton# ldd =named /usr/local/sbin/named: libcrypto.so.8 => /usr/local/lib/libcrypto.so.8 (0x4057e000) libxml2.so.2 => /usr/local/lib/libxml2.so.2 (0x40858000) libz.so.6 => /lib/libz.so.6 (0x40ae6000) libm.so.5 => /lib/libm.so.5 (0x40bfc000) libthr.so.3 => /lib/libthr.so.3 (0x40d62000) libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x40e8c000) liblzma.so.5 => /usr/lib/liblzma.so.5 (0x4114a000) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Fri Nov 13 22:36:15 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10BA7A2EFC7 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:36:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from kenobi.freebsd.org (kenobi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::16:76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F20531436 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:36:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from bugs.freebsd.org ([127.0.1.118]) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id tADMaErb041313 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:36:14 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) From: bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org To: freebsd-sparc64@FreeBSD.org Subject: [Bug 204527] openssl 1.0.2, when compiled WITH_ASM on sparc64 generates illegal instructions Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:36:15 +0000 X-Bugzilla-Reason: CC X-Bugzilla-Type: changed X-Bugzilla-Watch-Reason: None X-Bugzilla-Product: Ports & Packages X-Bugzilla-Component: Individual Port(s) X-Bugzilla-Version: Latest X-Bugzilla-Keywords: X-Bugzilla-Severity: Affects Some People X-Bugzilla-Who: linimon@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Status: New X-Bugzilla-Priority: --- X-Bugzilla-Assigned-To: dinoex@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Target-Milestone: --- X-Bugzilla-Flags: maintainer-feedback? X-Bugzilla-Changed-Fields: assigned_to Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Bugzilla-URL: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/ Auto-Submitted: auto-generated MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:36:15 -0000 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=204527 Mark Linimon changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Assignee|mat@FreeBSD.org |dinoex@FreeBSD.org --- Comment #1 from Mark Linimon --- Hmm. I'm showing dinoex@ as the maintainer. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Fri Nov 13 22:36:23 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2288A2EFD7 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:36:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from kenobi.freebsd.org (kenobi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::16:76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF2FD145B for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:36:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from bugs.freebsd.org ([127.0.1.118]) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id tADMaNgU041561 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:36:23 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) From: bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org To: freebsd-sparc64@FreeBSD.org Subject: [Bug 204527] security/openssl 1.0.2, when compiled WITH_ASM on sparc64 generates illegal instructions Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:36:24 +0000 X-Bugzilla-Reason: CC X-Bugzilla-Type: changed X-Bugzilla-Watch-Reason: None X-Bugzilla-Product: Ports & Packages X-Bugzilla-Component: Individual Port(s) X-Bugzilla-Version: Latest X-Bugzilla-Keywords: X-Bugzilla-Severity: Affects Some People X-Bugzilla-Who: linimon@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Status: New X-Bugzilla-Priority: --- X-Bugzilla-Assigned-To: dinoex@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Target-Milestone: --- X-Bugzilla-Flags: maintainer-feedback? X-Bugzilla-Changed-Fields: short_desc Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Bugzilla-URL: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/ Auto-Submitted: auto-generated MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 22:36:24 -0000 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=204527 Mark Linimon changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Summary|openssl 1.0.2, when |security/openssl 1.0.2, |compiled WITH_ASM on |when compiled WITH_ASM on |sparc64 generates illegal |sparc64 generates illegal |instructions |instructions -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sat Nov 14 02:33:08 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B6FEA2E191 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 02:33:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from kenobi.freebsd.org (kenobi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::16:76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36A9311A3 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 02:33:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from bugs.freebsd.org ([127.0.1.118]) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id tAE2X8iI037889 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 02:33:08 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) From: bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org To: freebsd-sparc64@FreeBSD.org Subject: [Bug 204527] security/openssl 1.0.2, when compiled WITH_ASM on sparc64 generates illegal instructions Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 02:33:08 +0000 X-Bugzilla-Reason: CC X-Bugzilla-Type: changed X-Bugzilla-Watch-Reason: None X-Bugzilla-Product: Ports & Packages X-Bugzilla-Component: Individual Port(s) X-Bugzilla-Version: Latest X-Bugzilla-Keywords: needs-qa X-Bugzilla-Severity: Affects Some People X-Bugzilla-Who: koobs@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Status: New X-Bugzilla-Priority: --- X-Bugzilla-Assigned-To: dinoex@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Target-Milestone: --- X-Bugzilla-Flags: maintainer-feedback? merge-quarterly? X-Bugzilla-Changed-Fields: cc flagtypes.name keywords Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Bugzilla-URL: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/ Auto-Submitted: auto-generated MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 02:33:08 -0000 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=204527 Kubilay Kocak changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |dinoex@FreeBSD.org Flags|maintainer-feedback?(mat@Fr |maintainer-feedback?(dinoex |eeBSD.org) |@FreeBSD.org), | |merge-quarterly? Keywords| |needs-qa -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sat Nov 14 11:14:24 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15861A2DFC7 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:14:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from elizabeth@interlinked.me) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAD741094 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:14:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from elizabeth@interlinked.me) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id E9528A2DFC2; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:14:23 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE249A2DFC1 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:14:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from elizabeth@interlinked.me) Received: from mail.wilcox-tech.com (mail.foxkit.us [192.65.240.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.wilcox-tech.com", Issuer "StartCom Class 1 Primary Intermediate Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AF43108E for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:14:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from elizabeth@interlinked.me) Received: (qmail 21794 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2015 11:22:29 -0000 Received: from ip68-13-249-237.ok.ok.cox.net (HELO ?192.168.1.156?) (EMyers@wilcox-tech.com@68.13.249.237) by mail.foxkit.us with ESMTPA; 14 Nov 2015 11:22:29 -0000 Message-ID: <5646D19C.9010304@interlinked.me> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 00:15:56 -0600 From: Elizabeth Myers User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Brian McGovern (bmcgover)" , Jordan Hubbard , Warner Losh CC: freebsd-arch , Anna Wilcox , "sparc64@freebsd.org" , Sean Bruno , Marius Strobl Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> , <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:14:24 -0000 On 11/11/15 10:07, Brian McGovern (bmcgover) wrote: > I have to step in on Jordan's side on this one. As a recently-former lab admin (June), we were - and I assume continue to - chucking Sun Sparc hardware as fast as we can EOL the products which run on the platform, and to the best of my knowledge, we haven't bought new gear since Oracle bought Sun. I think I still have an SB150 sitting in a closet collecting dust for the emergency case which is predestined to emergency at some point, but we're not even considering giving the boxes another life as second tier hardware - the x86/64 space offers far superior metrics in terms of price/performance/support/replacement parts. That doesn't mean there isn't a market for it. You might not see the value, but others clearly do. There are plenty of SPARC machines still in production worldwide. Sticking your head in the sand won't make them go away. Comparing SPARC collectors to people who collect BETAMAX is not only rude, it's also wrong. > > This, of course, means that our customers will be eventually follow suit as they do their next round of upgrades. While this means there will be a ton of Sparc64 hardware around at low prices, I have no doubt it'll be a niche community, like BETAMAX, Laserdisc, and HD-DVD before... I am sure the PowerPC users of FreeBSD would really /love/ to hear your ideas about niche communities in FreeBSD. PowerPC is these days primarily the domain of collectors, especially the big-endian stuff (IBM seems to be pushing little-endian furiously). > > If there is someone who loves this platform enough to keep it going single-handedly, or nearly so, that's one thing. If the discussion is to divert project resources to keep it alive just because its one more platform, I have a laundry list of things that I suspect will have a bigger impact on the broader x86 (and even ARM) community; then again, I expect just about everyone has such a list. This seems like you're handwaving the problem away with some nebulous definition of "project resources." If someone or some people want to maintain it, and continue using it, that is their business. If that constitutes "project resources," then I suppose you are instructing people, "go spend your time doing something more productive?" I am pretty sure it is their choice to spend time on whatever they please. But that's just me. On 11/11/15 00:55, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Hi Warner, > > I hate to be a voice of pragmatism here when we’re having so much fun discussing it from an architectural perspective, but… Whilst you're having so much fun criticising people for their choice in architecture... > > What’s the actual goal (from a future market relevance perspective) of putting resources, any resources, into sparc64? I think that’s the key question that needs to get asked and answered here since we all know that: As I said above, go ask the PowerPC people this. I am sure they would dismiss you as a bad troll. > > 1) FreeBSD is not NetBSD - it has never historically supported “x86 alternative architectures” just because they existed and might be technically interesting to port to, there had to be some sort of user community numbers to justify the time and energy expended for the project as a whole (and even in an all-volunteer driven project, there is simply no such thing as “free” - everything has a cost somewhere). You are seriously going to use "we're not NetBSD" as an argument? OK, then FreeBSD should only support x86, just like it used to, because "this isn't NetBSD" and it is the dominant architecture in the server, laptop, and desktop world. FreeBSD is obviously a populist operating system and should only work on the latest greatest hardware also. /s > > As phk noted earlier in the thread, the ALPHA port was an exception to this rule simply because it was the first-ever 64 bit port for FreeBSD and we knew it would buy us some much-needed 64 bit cleanliness, but it also fell off the support roadmap and into the history books once ALPHA’s market relevance had clearly ended. ALPHA hardware was expensive (three figures), bulky, and not something very many people had lying around. This is all still true. There are plenty of SPARC's in the wild - and I am willing to bet there are more working SPARCs than working ALPHA machines. > > NetBSD/alpha still exists, all the way up to and including NetBSD 7.0, because their slogan is “Of course it runs NetBSD.” Again, FreeBSD != NetBSD. The emphasis on market share is and always has been a key differentiator for FreeBSD and part of both its own slogans and mission statement. Linux has far more users than NetBSD and supports things FreeBSD would never even dream of supporting. Linux is oriented at the masses (just about anything with users). Are you proposing that Linux should remove support for marginal architectures too just because "they're not popular and there's only a few maintainers?" > > 2) Sparc64 global market share has declined significantly since Oracle purchased Sun, leaving Oracle and Fujitsu as the only two significant players in that market. Sure, putting “old equipment to work” is also always a tempting objective, but it’s one that really requires viewing through an objective lens since the perspective of someone who owns said "old equipment" is rather more biased than the perspective of the market as a whole. The market as a whole appears to consist (in terms of global server market share): > > HP (x64) 27.6% > IBM (x64) 22.9% > DELL (x64) 16.4% > All others (x64): 24% (combined estimate, including Cisco and Huawei) > Total: 90.9% > > [ Source: Gartner ] There are still TOP500 supercomputers that run SPARC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOP500#/media/File:Processor_families_in_TOP500_supercomputers.svg - the share has even grown slightly. I am sure there are still dozens of deployments of SPARC out there that nobody is revealing numbers on. Also, PowerPC probably has less than a few percent of total desktop and laptop users - go ahead, propose removing support for those too I suppose? /s > > That leaves 9.1% for the rest of the server industry, which includes Itanium, POWER4 and SPARC64. We can also probably safely assume that even amongst that tiny 9% pie slice, vendors are focused on the future since their overall market share is declining (about 5% annually), which begs the question: Is FreeBSD/SPARC64 aiming at the T5, even while Oracle themselves are shifting emphasis to lower-cost x64 systems for which FreeBSD is already competitive, or is it really just trying to keep some older collection of increasingly power/performance inefficient (by comparison) alive? Itanium is practically dead. I would wager SPARC64 and POWER have about the same marketshare. If people still want to support the architecture, then I think the overall marketshare is frankly inconsequential to the argument. > > Again, what’s the long-term goal of supporting this architecture? The old adage about “picking your battles” applies here, no matter how enthusiastic the small community of remaining SPARC users might be, which is why I am risking lightning bolts of wrath from SPARC zealots in even daring to ask the question. :-) Well you seem keen to pick this battle. If this architecture is so insignificant, then why chime in with all these numbers and arguments about how FreeBSD isn't NetBSD? Either you have a chip on your shoulder, something to prove, or just don't care about the minority as it somehow offends you. And yes, I have a giant chip on my shoulder too. I don't like it when people decide to steamroller because something isn't their favourite thing or "I don't use it at my job and I'm not paid to touch it so screw the people who use this." It's a crappy attitude to have, although it's extremely common. How about you just leave the happy minority alone? :) -- Regards, Elizabeth From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sat Nov 14 17:16:30 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5099A2F90E for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:16:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 842C31B8B for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:16:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 83EA2A2F90C; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:16:30 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69AC9A2F90A for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:16:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qk0-x22a.google.com (mail-qk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2616A1B89 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:16:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by qkao63 with SMTP id o63so77435366qka.2 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 09:16:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp_com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=jL310iG4kp+VRhZiXKLrwqc08dV7STFVvOfVADpHOTo=; b=Za6S79yIsgCRrzejopjl7yefUGlQIJkzmC69lBFF2QPUHCJDN7RF9EcpyN2cvztYFE 9wtOhZrMFA+k750WFZECZtncAOdOpDRkyJ2tCIxN3+MQtgQ1SJcQF1+9yjaB1HuPxIKd n8qzoMa9Aq3WzHox0JBI0TB7Etvcj9AhDF9dO1UVx6zR7upJuhxEPYbMSoBTFN+7TVRZ IYu8o5AGI9vfWezfEHWMd/DiC6WRMbs4pXootOripm7XAgP4EyedC1bX1fno/cQXWilN auSKOeQX9IBFpZ/g4pCAfTKpLZJBbto9LFXkhrkJhezFnVOgDSDWCQGBFgZqIawVh4wu ZYBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=jL310iG4kp+VRhZiXKLrwqc08dV7STFVvOfVADpHOTo=; b=SuYEssUP0fQOyzEX6dRJ9XIzQlnfC/R7loLN9ibO43+YxGmqa0Vm8BWfqiuy4LAWqP ZrQkwbc5r5cFkN4agcwzF/Rg0dQkFJaNg8diQl3h34RaldZPlJqqMK4FUJV/RJV3irPC zzolrj4yozEyjAvozFMF9MOyYPXYTxqU9eFuU+AR16jdZmRjk9XLlY1VHif4hoe0NR3R fOkQu85AN3YvXhAiaiYfbcNQobQ15JzCXQNC9qGnEegwbuyRPgiUpjFidco6+TdrOCm1 e63XxPgggw69uFOoHRehop/VyHuptanJooDQxlWlX/3rCvkaa0kWPSTkgSdAes7bMmXf hFIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQldOezBX1ES0fIsvlCVB4UHf5cSqkFLXEpmj78s05tdbMZVwDnbrKh0+4p5So/BJOK3gWnr MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.55.21.65 with SMTP id f62mr28381468qkh.46.1447521389132; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 09:16:29 -0800 (PST) Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.140.27.181 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 09:16:28 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [50.253.99.174] In-Reply-To: <5646D19C.9010304@interlinked.me> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <5646D19C.9010304@interlinked.me> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 10:16:28 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: vqPm-WLmHdfGHk249Gt9ofeyifI Message-ID: Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 From: Warner Losh To: Elizabeth Myers Cc: "Brian McGovern (bmcgover)" , Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-arch , Anna Wilcox , "sparc64@freebsd.org" , Sean Bruno , Marius Strobl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20 X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:16:30 -0000 On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 11:15 PM, Elizabeth Myers wrote: > You are seriously going to use "we're not NetBSD" as an argument? You noticed I didn't reply to it. The argument is completely lame. FreeBSD runs today in a variety of markets. Some new, some not so new. The thing that makes each of these areas unique is that there's a thriving community around them, FreeBSD still runs well enough on these machines to get something done, and when things break, they get fixed in a timely manner. Alpha was removed because it got broken by some changes, and stayed broken for a long time despite repeated requests to fix it. Sparc64 is on the cusp of that: some minor things are broken, but have been fixed. The current crisis is due to the end of life of gcc in the tree and its fallout coupled with some neglect of the port due to time constraints. At first I was all for removal. With more data, I'm less sure. If the promises are kept made in this thread, it looks to remain viable for a while, though the lack of a qemu-user solution means that packages for a slow platform (where they are really quite useful) will remain limited. Maybe there's enough hardware around that third-party pkg repos can fill the gap, maybe not. I think we should experiment with this model and see what it produces. Give the branching of 11 as the deadline to show something viable... Warner From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sat Nov 14 17:51:24 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B08A2F26C for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:51:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1687F191A for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:51:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 13BAFA2F26A; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:51:24 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132EFA2F269; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:51:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A641919; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:51:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1F54F418; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:51:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id tAEHpExZ074354; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:51:14 GMT (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: Warner Losh cc: Elizabeth Myers , Anna Wilcox , "Brian McGovern \(bmcgover\)" , freebsd-arch , Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , "sparc64@freebsd.org" , Jordan Hubbard Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <5646D19C.9010304@interlinked.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <74352.1447523474.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:51:14 +0000 Message-ID: <74353.1447523474@critter.freebsd.dk> X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:51:24 -0000 -------- In message , Warner Losh writes: >At first I was all for removal. With more data, I'm less sure. If the >promises are kept made in this thread, it looks to remain viable for a >while, [...] And in the end that is always what it boils down to: Platform XYZ will be supported as long as somebody is willing to support i= t. -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sat Nov 14 17:54:34 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5800A2F37B for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:54:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8F51B7D for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:54:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 993F7A2F379; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:54:34 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96DADA2F378; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:54:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [66.135.54.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DEBE1B7B; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:54:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 4DC4B56083; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:54:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:54:33 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: Elizabeth Myers Cc: "Brian McGovern (bmcgover)" , Jordan Hubbard , Warner Losh , Marius Strobl , Anna Wilcox , "sparc64@freebsd.org" , Sean Bruno , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <20151114175433.GA19271@lonesome.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <5646D19C.9010304@interlinked.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5646D19C.9010304@interlinked.me> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 17:54:34 -0000 On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 12:15:56AM -0600, Elizabeth Myers wrote: > If that constitutes "project resources," then I suppose you are > instructing people, "go spend your time doing something more productive?" In the principle of fairness, let me play devil's advocate for a moment. - it does take some time for re@ to release and test sparc64 images. - having sparc64 in 'make universe' does require developers to spend more time regression-testing their (non-sparc64) changes. OTOH once an architecture is removed from 'make universe' it's effectively dead, as bitrot sets in instantly. mcl From owner-freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org Sat Nov 14 20:04:54 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC1F6A2FDB8 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:04:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A61561174 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:04:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 96936A2FDB6; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:04:54 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: sparc64@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95ED6A2FDB4; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:04:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (gate2.funkthat.com [208.87.223.18]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gold.funkthat.com", Issuer "gold.funkthat.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 514B6115E; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:04:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gold.funkthat.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAEK4puu065003 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 14 Nov 2015 12:04:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by gold.funkthat.com (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id tAEK4o7U065002; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 12:04:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 12:04:50 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Mark Linimon Cc: Elizabeth Myers , Anna Wilcox , freebsd-arch , Marius Strobl , Sean Bruno , Jordan Hubbard , "sparc64@freebsd.org" , Warner Losh Subject: Re: Sparc64 doesn't care about you, and you shouldn't care about Sparc64 Message-ID: <20151114200450.GH65715@funkthat.com> References: <563A5893.1030607@freebsd.org> <2AAC0EF3-528B-476F-BA9C-CDC3004465D0@bsdimp.com> <20151108155501.GA1901@alchemy.franken.de> <563F8385.3090603@freebsd.org> <56417100.5050600@Wilcox-Tech.com> <39947478-4710-47D8-BAB1-FC93979570B6@mail.turbofuzz.com> <5646D19C.9010304@interlinked.me> <20151114175433.GA19271@lonesome.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20151114175433.GA19271@lonesome.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 9.1-PRERELEASE amd64 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 54BA 873B 6515 3F10 9E88 9322 9CB1 8F74 6D3F A396 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html X-TipJar: bitcoin:13Qmb6AeTgQecazTWph4XasEsP7nGRbAPE X-to-the-FBI-CIA-and-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? can i haz chizburger? User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (gold.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1]); Sat, 14 Nov 2015 12:04:51 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: freebsd-sparc64@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting FreeBSD to the Sparc List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 20:04:55 -0000 Mark Linimon wrote this message on Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 11:54 -0600: > On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 12:15:56AM -0600, Elizabeth Myers wrote: > > If that constitutes "project resources," then I suppose you are > > instructing people, "go spend your time doing something more productive?" > > In the principle of fairness, let me play devil's advocate for a moment. > > - it does take some time for re@ to release and test sparc64 images. > > - having sparc64 in 'make universe' does require developers to spend > more time regression-testing their (non-sparc64) changes. Considering the number of breakages that happen that would have been caught by make universe, it is clear that few developers run this target, so not really a valid argument... Also, we have universe11{a,b} in the cluster to help cut down the time.. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not."